April 7, 2025 • 59 mins
High performers often face pushback when they step outside their lane, despite consistently exceeding expectations in their core responsibilities. Management's response to ambition and initiative can make or break employee satisfaction and retention.
• Managing perception as a high achiever requires understanding both organizational politics and your manager's motivations
• Bad managers feel threatened by exceptional employees and restrict their growth without clear reasoning
• Startup culture generally encourages going beyond your role, while corporate environments typically resist cross-departmental assistance
• Good managers channel ambition by defining success criteria and helping employees find challenging work within their vertical
• Career maturity means evolving from saying "yes" to everything to strategically selecting opportunities that advance your goals
• The higher you climb, the more political awareness matters—helping the wrong teams can hurt your advancement
• If your manager consistently discourages initiative despite your high performance, consider it a sign to seek opportunities elsewhere
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm in a mood today.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Say it to his face.
You said it before he was evenhere.
Say it now.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
All right, shut up, craig.
I'm in a mood today.
I'm in a mood.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
That's right, you freaking beaver About time you
get in here.
You're running late, you'resquirreling us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Why aren't you recording this podcast five
minutes ago, when we gave thebest advice in the world?
Why weren't you in here?
You missed all of it.
This is why we I'm going totake an investigative, analytic
look at our podcast funds andfees, and I think Craig's on the
chopping block to go.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I agree.
No severance package either.
He's gone, no.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I'm going to turn Craig into an innie.
Actually, sadly, I think Craigis an innie.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I was about to say I think he's completely severed
because he knows nothing unlesshe's branded the channel.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Literally goes into a liminal space of non-existence
when not recording this podcast,I can't imagine a worse fate.
What's?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
your job oh.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I listen to two knuckleheads talk about work for
an hour every week.
It's great, fantastic.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
What was that movie or show where the robot oh, it's
Rick and Morty.
You pass butter, the robot.
Yeah, the robot comes in andhe's like my life is to pass
butter.
Yes, oh my god, yeah, that'shis job so good, this is your
job, craig, the only reasonyou're alive.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
You know what our job is.
What's that?
Welcome back to CorporateStrategy a podcast that's going
to be named I'm Bruce and I'mClark.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
It was quick this week.
It was quick yeah you actuallydo.
You think we'll ever go back toactually doing it without any
banter?
That's just how you do theintro With guest episodes.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I think it's just easier, unless it's like your
recurring guest and they knowthe bit.
But, like when I had my wife on, it was super awkward because
it's just like I don't know howto talk to you like a podcast
host.
I don't know how to talk to youas a wife.
How am I supposed to talk toyou?
Like I'm scared.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
And you want to be more formal, more polite than we
are with each other, so youdon't want to like banter it up
at the beginning and make themuncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah, that's probably the only case.
Yeah, yeah, no, I think guestsPlural.
That's the only way.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I like it.
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (02:23):
No, your turn, no, no your turn you go first, let me
go first, you go first, okaywhat am I doing?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
pinkies up vibe check .
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Okay, my pinkies up in the air, vibe check.
I'm doing swell.
I'm doing swell.
I'm still on my swell kick.
Um, this week was long.
Twice this week I woke upthinking it was Friday,
wednesday and Thursday, so itwas a long week.
It was a productive week andgot my big launch out of the way
(02:56):
, which I have literally beenworking on this thing since
November.
I am so happy to have it behindme.
We got one more big thingcoming up.
It's an event I got to go toSan Diego for, and then it's
like my life just becomes lessstressed around deadlines and
more just focused on doing work.
So I'm seeing, I'm seeing the.
(03:17):
I'm seeing the clearing at theend of the forest.
The question is is the light inthe, the clearing, is it clear
or is it on fire?
Only time will tell and I mustwalk into it, so we will see.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
But I'm personally doing great, doing, doing great
I love the excitement coming outof you right now.
I mean, that's a fair point.
People always say, yeah, thelights at the end of the tunnel,
but you don't know what'screating the light.
Is it a whole city burning downbecause a nuke just took off?
Like you don't know what you'reriding that train into?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I'm just saying the light could literally be the
atomic breath of godzilla justapproaching you quicker and
quicker by the moment, and allit's gonna be left to you is
like it's gonna be like littleshoes and the smoke coming off
your feet.
Yeah, that's all that's goingto be left to you is like it's
going to be like little shoesand the smoke coming off your
feet.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, that's all that's going to be left to you.
That's it.
That's all that's going to beleft.
Yeah, I feel like that's mylife right now, like we're about
to have a really big launch.
I say launch.
You know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
In a month and a half .
My launch is like one onethousandth of your launch, so
just give the listeners an ideahere.
It's a pretty big deal.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Huge yes, it's huge, it's a pretty big deal.
So we're doing this massivelaunch and, luckily, we've been
doing a lot of beta testing, alot of beta testing, a lot of
active users just to reallystress test the system, you know
, and so far it's going really,really well.
So I think we're going to be ina really good spot Even when we
(04:46):
hit a hundred X what we'reseeing right now in terms of
volume.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I?
When do I get to beta test yourlaunch, clark?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
when do I get to beta test, I might give you some
premier access.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It's not too far away .
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I don't think Okay Be on the lookout.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
We'll be in touch.
I Be on the lookout.
We'll be in touch.
I'm going to hold you to it.
I'm going to hold you to this.
You'll get to beta test it.
You'll have a great time.
Good, okay, I expect to.
I expect nothing less.
If otherwise, it will be allyour fault.
Do you realize?
Any of my dissatisfaction is adirect reflection upon you.
This will all be brought backup in your performance review,
(05:22):
which I'll be sending to yourmanagement, so just be prepared
for that.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
There's only one rule when you beta test this, you
are not allowed to fill out anysurvey.
I want nothing from you.
You just get to experience thebeta and that's it.
No feedback.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Your boss comes in on Monday, Clark.
I got a survey from someonenamed Bruce no last name.
No, Bruce Corporate Strategy.
I don't think that's a realname.
They said he needs improvementon every category.
They also said someone named.
(06:00):
Clark, specifically, has reallyfailed them.
Who is Clark?
Who is this person Saidspecifically?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
he attacked me in plain sight and this needs to be
escalated.
This needs to be escalated tomanagement.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Why is a knife-wielding maniac named
Clark experiencing our beta?
That's all I want you to gothrough in life.
Is that specific review withyour manager?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
He kept going on and on about how he has all this
intel on what we're doing.
He's going to release it to theworld to kill all of our
marketing campaigns and he'sthreatening to do it on what he
said was episode 175?
I don't even know what thatmeans.
Do it on what he said wasepisode 175.
I don't even know what thatmeans.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
His one to man was a copy of the PlayStation one game
, Pepsi man, only released inJapan.
I think we need to send it tohim.
This feels like an imminent tohim now.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
This is going to compromise our whole launch.
You better get this done.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
You better, you better, and that's how we do the
live stream.
This is how we're going tocompromise our whole launch.
You better get this done.
You better, you better, andthat's how we do the live stream
.
This is how we're going to getthe live stream.
I'm going to hold you hostageand no one's going to know.
But we are going to get Pepsiman, I promise you.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I love it.
I am so in for this.
So yeah, my life in the nextthree months.
It could either be great orit's going to be great, or it's
going to be a burning fire ofhell, and I don't know what the
end of the tunnel is for meright now.
I think it's going to be goodbecause all signs indicate
greener pastures andeverything's going to be
glorious, but we'll find outmonth and a half two months.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
speaking of signs, yeah, I saw a sign.
I saw a road sign, a road signfor the beta, which I thought
was interesting.
It wasn't like set up, it wason the road.
I was like, oh, this is whereroad signs get made.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Interesting.
You've got to be creative inyour guerrilla marketing, you
know.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Well, I mean, I think this is more like government
road sign, but yes, yes, it justgot me thinking about things in
general.
Anyways, I can't be talkingabout betas, all.
All pod.
We have a top, we have a.
We have quite a few topics thathave like built up over the
years of us not listening to ourlisteners.
But I read one and realized Iactually never read it.
But we have to talk about this.
(08:23):
Uh, I'm dealing with this,about this.
Uh, I'm dealing with this, youdeal with this and I I'm dealing
with it both directions.
So this comes from Monroe,previous guest on the pod.
Uh, she wrote managingperceptions when you are highly
ambitious and a high performer.
I've consistently run intocolleagues and leaders those
directly impacting my upwardmobility who view high capacity
(08:45):
as doing a lot.
Or why not focus on yourcurrent role or learn when to
say no?
I take it to heart, but Iconsistently execute on time and
early in all areas I'm involvedwith, along with high quality
output parentheses confirmedthrough feedback through my end
of year review last Friday.
It leaves me frustrated andlike I can't believe I didn't
(09:08):
read this earlier in the month.
But like I live this, I thinkyou live this, and I've also got
a team that lives this, so Ifigure we can bring some
insights to the woes and thebains of being a high performer
working outside of your oftenday-to-day responsibilities this
(09:30):
is immediate reaction yeah, Iwant to know what's.
What's your immediate reaction?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
one monroe, thanks for the banger always bringing
the hits.
This is going to be always,because I totally agree, I think
we all kind of have lived inthat space and I've lived in it.
I'm recalling a few differentscenarios where this has
happened and in my current roleI'll do present and then I'll
(09:56):
move into historical where, likeit started and I started
getting this kind of sense.
So when you have a lot going on, you know, especially in my
role, you can continue to justget more and more work and
obviously leadership looks ateverything that's going on and
they think you're taking on toomuch and it's going to put
higher priority things at risk,even though you consistently
(10:19):
deliver.
And I think there's a little bitof fear from like leaders that
you might show them up, that youmight just be doing too much in
general, that they want you tobe doing other things other than
the thing you're doing, exceptfor they don't know what it is
they'd rather you be doing.
And so I think that's like thehardest thing about this
situation is no one can actuallyarticulate why I remember I was
(10:41):
having a skip level meetingjust because we checked in every
month, why I remember I washaving a skip level meeting just
because we checked in everymonth and my current boss walked
by the room and they looked atthe skip level and they were
like don't give Clark any morework, he's got plenty of work to
do and I'm sitting in thismeeting like I know.
I have plenty of work to do, andthat's not what I'm asking for.
I'm asking for higher levelwork, not more work.
(11:02):
There's plenty of work to do,but I want to be involved in
something that's going tochallenge me and where I'm going
to learn, which will innatelylikely be more work.
But it's not about the volumeof work and the stuff I can do
right now in my sleep.
That's keeping me up.
It's like I want to beambitious, I want to do that
next thing and be challenged,and unfortunately, I think
certain bosses just won't letyou do that, for many different
(11:22):
reasons.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
sorry, yes, when I'm not how you feel, no, no no,
well, uh, I thought I think youwere gonna start with your your
current and then go back in thepast.
I thought you were gonna takethe past back.
Should I do it or we do current?
let's do current first okay,well, so, counter to your point,
um, I've seen what you've livedthrough, but I don't live with
(11:46):
that.
Today, if anything, I have theopposite problem, where going
outside of your role and takingon more things is greatly
encouraged because that's thestartup way, right?
So, hey, I can take this thingon not my job, not even in my,
not even in a departmentresponsibilities but I can do it
.
Great, please do that, becausewe don't have people that can,
(12:09):
uh, perfect examples.
I have a teammate on my teamwho is just the smartest guy
I've ever met and he's atechnical wizard like you can
give him any technical problem,it's going to solve it.
He's our community manager.
This is the person who, like,runs our community, but also,
you give him our product or, uh,you know a technical problem
(12:31):
and he's going to go in thereand find every single thing he
can about it.
Like, things that are, you know, our q, a and r and d aren't
even finding.
Like, that's just the level ofintelligence this guy has.
I'm like, well, your job is x,but given your talents and
abilities and passion for thesethings, like, please continue to
do this, because, one, it feedsinto the marketing that we do,
(12:51):
right.
Like it's great to havetechnical authority and to like
back up everything we say withlike real good technical
soundness coming from myteammate.
But also like who's going to doit right?
Like we were lacking thisbefore, now we have it, he's
doing it.
Do it right.
Like we were lacking thisbefore, now we have it, he's
doing it.
Yeah, it's not his job at all,but you know, thank Odin, he's
in here doing the work becauseno one else will.
(13:12):
But you can only do that at astartup.
Because I think about workingat Big Corp and he would
literally get yelled at, wristslapped, hit for doing this kind
of thing there.
Because how dare you stepoutside of your department and
go help a completely differentdepartment with their work right
?
Like that's the difference inbig corp and big startup is in
(13:34):
one of these places it's highlyencouraged, in the other it
becomes like a don't go off anddo this now, cause you've got
your day-to-day responsibilitieswhich you might be crushing.
You might actually need morework because you're so good at
what you do, but sometimesthey're like don't be doing that
.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah, I think really what it comes down to, you know,
with what you were saying, kindof brought clarity to at least
my point of view.
Yeah, it's not about what'sbest for the company, it's about
what's best for that individualin their role and if you're not
helping them advance theiragenda, then they don't want you
doing it.
In big corp it doesn't matter.
(14:15):
If you're doing something superimportant to help another group
, it could be advancing theiragenda, though it could be.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I mean, this is kind of the folly, right?
You can tell me if you agree,disagree, but I think big corp
is too stupid to realize thatthis individual could help their
agenda because it doesn't fallunder their checklist of or
their excel spreadsheet of checkboxes.
And we have to.
We have to paint by the numbers, because if we don't paint
(14:43):
exactly by this number, thecolors are going to be wrong and
it's like, well, the colorswere always wrong.
Here's how you actually paintthe picture that the customer
wants to see, but like big corphates that, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I think that's part of it.
I think another reason could beand I think it, you know it's
so contextual to where you're atI think another part of it is
having it happen where, let'ssay, you pick this up, you do
really well at it.
There's a couple things thatcould happen.
You know one you could get likepoached by this team to join
(15:15):
their team because it could besomething you really enjoy doing
.
So I think there's always thatfear in the back of their head
I'm going to lose this reallygood person because they're
doing stuff outside of our realmthat may get them interested in
something and then leavebecause this team loves them.
I think another thing thatcould be happening is you could
build something and then a teambecomes dependent on you for
that thing, if that makes sense.
(15:36):
So, like you, build a newsystem.
You help with something, youcrush it.
The team's always going to comeback to you and be like, hey,
can you do this thing again forus?
And so I do think that's notnecessarily a bad thing to look
at.
It's like OK, am I about tolose Bruce?
Because he went and did thisthing and now he has to support
it, and we didn't like thinkabout the logistics of it.
(15:58):
Just, bruce did it.
Now he's on the hook for itbecause it's an important thing
to the company.
Now he can't do his main jobbecause he's always doing this
thing.
That's taken off.
I think you can mitigate thatdown the line, like, if it's as
important as it is to thecompany and that detrimental,
then it's like, okay, well,maybe it's justifying a new
resource or a new tool orsomething like that that can
actually do this thing better.
But I think it is a decentconcern from a leader that
(16:20):
doesn't know all the details tobe like okay, is this going to
be like a one-time thing, or isthis actually going to be like a
every time they need it kind ofthing, and how is that going to
impact your performance longterm?
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Well, it's funny because in my case, I'll tell
you exactly what I'm thinking.
You know, I told my teammatethis today.
I was like look, you're verygood at this.
Like you're good at your job.
You're great at your job,community loves you.
You're also really good at this.
Like I would love to see you bea product manager one day,
because outside of my podcastco-host, there's not a single
(16:54):
intelligent product manager onthe planet and it'd be nice to
have two of them.
Like it'd be really cool tohave two.
So, like you know, I can alwayswe can always find someone to
take your current job.
But like the job you could bedoing, doing like you could be
helping us big way.
So, like I know the way I thinkis not the way corporate things
, because corporate's like no,you got to hire externally for
(17:15):
that.
Like you got to hire someonewho's got the experience, not
someone who can do the job,someone who's had the job.
You know the idiots.
So like that's, that's whowe're gonna go for.
But like man, that gears areturning, I'm like, oh, this
would be, this would be so great, but you don't get that at big
court.
Like very rarely does it playout that way where, hey, that
thing you helped with you savedour bacon.
(17:37):
Would you like to do that fulltime, with a pay raise and a
little bit more?
You know stock or whatever.
Like let's go, we'll findsomeone to replace your current
job.
No, it's get back to your.
Get back to your nine to five.
You know what you did here washelpful, but never do it again.
Like I feel like far too oftenthat is the reward, is a
chastising, and you feel likeshould I not do this, should I
(18:01):
not help?
And I think that's a lot ofwhat Monroe is probably dealing
with in her specific situationis when you go above and beyond
with.
In her specific situation iswhen you go above and beyond,
suddenly this weird magnifyingglass gets put on you, even when
you're an A player and you'rehelping.
It's like why are you doingthis?
Why are you hurting the vibe ofthe company?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's so difficult too,because sometimes it's okay.
I've had this happen where I'lldo something and everybody
would be so happy, even my bossbe like oh yeah, this was great,
so happy you were able to helpwith that and I wish I could say
there was like a defined or adefinitive reason for one or the
other.
Unfortunately there's not, andI think it's because your leader
(18:44):
is privy to information you'renot and has their own
perspectives and politicalideology of the different
empires growing inside ofenterprise and I think that's
part of the challenge is like ifyou're doing something with the
wrong group that they justdon't like or have a bad opinion
of, that can also look bad onyou.
So it's really difficult tofind like, where can I go above
(19:07):
and beyond and still stay in thegood graces of my leadership,
where it's going to becelebrated and not looked at as
a negative?
You know it's funny.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
That was originally going to be our topic today,
because I was like I want tohave a talk, but we talk about
when do you tell the truthversus when do you keep it a
secret.
But I was like, oh no, we havetopics in the PodTop channel, so
we need to come back to that.
We need to come back to that.
You're absolutely right, and Idon't know Hidden agendas, I do
think, play a big part of thisthough.
(19:39):
Absolutely it really does.
Right.
Like you never know, maybe thatteam they're helping is on the
list to get axed and they'rehelping is on the is on the list
to get axed and they're goingto get all replaced with, you
know, outsourced, cheaper laborand you helping them is not
(19:59):
actually helping the granddivision of how the company
operates.
So like, and that's that's justsuper effed up in general, but
like I can totally see thatbeing part of the logic.
It's like, hey, we wanted toget rid of them, now you've
helped them.
This makes it harder to argueour case, kind of thing.
It's that that back channelpolitics.
I hate that.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Cold chills all the time time at big corp.
And yeah, when you'reenterprise, or when you're
enterprise, when you're empirebuilding you, you don't want to
worry about anybody else butyourself, and so you're looking
out for, like the survivalistmentality of your team.
Screw the screw.
What is best for the company?
It's like that doesn't evenmatter.
What matters is your team.
(20:37):
And how do I hire more peopleto my team and take on more
responsibility for the thingsthat we can do?
Well, and that's like the worstthing about corporate.
It's like it's not about theend result, it's just about this
person growing in their role,growing their team, getting more
money, whatever, and thepersonal side of it takes over
the logical side of the bestthing for the company side.
(20:57):
It's really unfortunate.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
It really is.
I want to read a response thatwas made by individual
contributor in our discord.
Also just a constant banger ofan of a of a participant with
all things pod.
They wrote being told to stayin your lane without being
provided a clear policy orperformance reason seems like
poor management.
I could understand that being aconcern if a person's core
(21:20):
duties weren't being met to ahigh enough standard.
I doubt that's the case here.
Not allowing people to work neartheir potential is a cack
killer.
I would say there's one area Ifound productivity imbalances
can be a problem.
I worked under someone whoconsistently put in long hours,
was involved in everything andalmost always worked far ahead
from the rest of the team,whether due to efficiency,
effort or inexperience.
(21:41):
Not being able to work in theforefront of projects because
someone always gets to the workfirst is discouraging.
It can make it hard for thewhole team to feel like they're
contributing and being given anopportunity to grow.
If you're already mindful ofgiving your team members space
to achieve, I would definitelyencourage discussing your goals
with future management.
A negative response is probablya good reason to execute plan X
(22:02):
, which I feel adds even morelayers to this topic.
So what was your thoughts onthat?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah, I mean, I agree wholeheartedly.
That's actually where I wasgoing to go.
Next is Danny Yonkers isscreaming in the back of my head
to be like this is a managementproblem.
Like if someone on my team istaking something else on, I just
go, stop doing that.
I don't give them any rhyme orreason or like you know
definitive reason why theyshouldn't be doing this thing.
It's discouraging.
It's like okay, well, I guess Ican't do anything without
(22:33):
approval now and all my ideasmight be stupid and I shouldn't
help other teams.
Like it creates such a terribleculture and I think individual
contributors said it best.
It's okay, listen, bruce, yourperformance was a you know, met
expectations this year.
I really think you need to befocusing on how do you get that
to a, you know, whatever highestachiever or whatever it is Like
(22:56):
I want you to get to that,whatever that next level is, and
before you start helping othersand doing all these extra side
projects, I need you to focus onyour core job.
Like that's a good managementdiscussion of being like I want
your performance to be betterbefore you take on this extra
stuff.
Like that's a good managementdiscussion of being like I want
your performance to be betterbefore you take on this extra
stuff and that stuff isn't goingto help you get to that level.
And so like that's a good,valuable discussion where it's
very definitive on, goes back toyour performance review, gives
(23:19):
you definitive guidance on likeyou need to focus on your role,
stay in your lane.
In this case, once you meetthat goal, I'm more than happy
to talk about you know whatopportunities are out there
where you could help others orwhere we could challenge you
more in your current role so youcan continue learning and
helping the broader organization.
Like that's a really positiveconversation if it's approached
that way.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
So I want to challenge that because I agree
it is a positive, it's an inwardfacing approach, right, like
you're telling me hey, you doingthis is great, thank you, but
this is not going to get youpromoted, this is not going to
get you that next 10% raise orwhatever.
Like you're looking out for me,which is what a manager should
do, I'm going to say there's abetter response, which is not to
(24:01):
talk to me at all but to go upand say, hey, we have a problem.
I have a team member who isconstantly helping this team,
this team, this team, this team,because they're not able to do
it on their own.
Why is that?
Like we need to dig into whythey're deficient and they need
my team members time all thetime, because this is an a
(24:21):
player, they're helpingeverybody.
They're not able to rise intheir own stock because they're
constantly having to help others.
Like now you're taking it andsaying what's the actual problem
that's going on here thatrequires all this cross
collaboration and, as a manager,now you're you're helping, kind
of elevate your own stock,saying, hey, you know,
(24:41):
something's not working from anexecution level.
We need to evaluate and figurethis out amongst the other
managers and leaders.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
That is a great response.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I agree and I think the hardest thing Because then
you can fix the individualcontributors problem while also
fixing the wider organizationalproblem.
That's clearly happening.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, no, I agree with you.
At Enterprise, that will justnever happen though.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
No, it won't.
But I mean I'm an idealist solet's go all day long.
I'm going to call out the.
I'm going to punch up wheneverI can.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, absolutely, Because I think that's the
hardest thing.
It's like now, if you're evenif you're a decent manager, it's
like, well, now I got to gotalk to all these other teams
and why their teams suck andmaybe how they need to upscale,
Like that requires a lot ofeffort.
And you, your manager,whoever's managing you, is going
to be like why are you spendingall your time doing this?
Not that important.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Well, in an ideal world, eventually you find the
manager who manages the managersand they would say, okay, what
the heck is going on here, likewhy is no one capable of
managing their team efficiently?
And they should come up with aplan of execution to help
rebalance and fix the problem.
That's not going to happenbecause upper management sucks,
(26:00):
myself included.
So like you're just, you'renever going to get that fix.
But you know, in an idealsituation that's what should
happen.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Let's look at another scenario.
Let's say, like Monroe, highperformer, so as a manager, what
is a positive conversationthere?
It's hey, bruce, high performer, you're doing awesome.
Really appreciate you helpingout this other team.
It seems like maybe there's anopportunity that we could find
more challenging work for you,because you're doing everything
you're doing now.
(26:29):
You're crushing it.
I think we could find morechallenging work in your role so
that you could spend your timefocused on those efforts, so you
could grow.
Or it's hey, bruce, you knowanother way to look at it.
It's okay if this thing iscritical, you know I trust your
judgment on this.
What is the measurement ofsuccess?
Tell me what success looks likefor the long-term of this and
(26:51):
let's see if we can get to thatobjective and then focus on our
vertical, on how we take thatenergy and move it into our
space to make our space better.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I love that.
I think that's probably themost realistic, best response,
because now you've set a goal.
As a manager, you've done theone thing that you can actually
do, which is what is successdefined as?
How do we either continue thiseffectively or stop doing it,
because you've achieved what youneeded to do.
That's good, clark, that's good.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
That's why you're a manager it's helping the
individual grow Like it's it'ssaying like, as a manager, I
could have, I could rip thataway right now.
That's an option.
I could be like, don't do that,but that's going to be
discouraging.
I'm obviously too late.
I didn't catch this before itstarted, so we can't have a
conversation about it.
They're obviously deep in it,they're passionate about it for
whatever reason, like putting onmy, my manager hat.
(27:44):
It's like this is going to be adetriment to them working here
if I just say no.
And so how do I at least definethe success criteria, the end
goal, make sure they think aboutthat and then say okay, and
then after that let's focusright back into our lane a
little bit.
So you kind of steer them backin and you have to balance that.
You're like how big is the riskif they continue to do this?
(28:06):
Like, do I really think it'sgoing to have a giant detriment,
or do I trust this person thatthey're going to be able to
manage both their current dayjob and this extra thing?
And it sounds like, in at leastthe Monroe's case it's I can do
both and you can trust thatperson to do both.
And now you as a manager have achallenge to say how do I get
them focused on something toimprove our area rather than
(28:27):
having to go outside to improveother people's yep, I think the
the good news is there's a lotmore positive outcomes here than
negative ones.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
In good management, and I think individual
contributors point if it is anegative outcome, plan, exit
immediately, because it's notgoing to get any better for you.
Um, but but but, just like uhclark and I have said in this
past, like sort of hypotheticals, there's a lot of ways this can
go and there's a lot of waysthat this can be treated as a
positive and and be a netpositive both for the individual
(29:00):
as well as the company.
Yeah, 100 agree do you want tojump management?
Speaker 2 (29:07):
oh it does but you want to go to the past where we
can talk about bad management.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Hold on, I've got to fuel my DeLorean here.
I've got a 1.21 gigawatt.
I'm going to have to use somenuclear accelerator for Alright,
we're in the past.
We're in the past.
Everything's great.
I'm not going back.
You can't take me, clark.
I won't this.
I'm not going back.
Everything was great.
You can't take me, clark.
I won't go.
I won't go, I'm staying.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
No, clark, if you remember these times, I mean
they were great.
The pay wasn't great, but therole like what we were doing was
great.
When we started we used to bethis cohesive, beautiful unit.
We were Just a bunch of freakingnerds Diverse group bunch of
freaking nerds diverse group.
It was a very interesting groupof cultures and personalities
and we were so naive to thepoint of great just being there
(29:56):
in that naive little bubble atthe beginning of our careers.
Then we started diverting.
You remember the breakage?
I see the Fisher line coming inbetween our group and once we
start going to these other teamscause we're going so well, this
is when it all went downhilland the scenario I'm thinking of
.
I remember I joined this, thisnew team, with this certain
(30:17):
manager who will not be named,and my team was my team actually
worked pretty well together,like individually, like between
our team.
We had a pretty fun team.
Like we all hung out, we allplayed ping pong, we did all
this stuff.
It was fantastic, and so Iwanted to get better as, at that
time, a software engineer.
I wanted to help my othercoworkers get better as software
(30:37):
engineers because we werelearning a new tech stack.
I was like you know what WeeklyI'm going to set up a
programming challenge.
So I created this programmingchallenge.
Every week I was sending outthis thing to my team.
Somebody forwarded that to ourmanager, so I got called in the
office.
They pulled me aside andthey're like why are you doing
this?
And I'm like, well, you know, Iwant to get better at this.
(31:00):
I forget if it was switchinglanguage or whatever it was, but
I was like I want to get betterat this programming language
and I want the team to do itwith me so we can collaborate
together.
You know, create thiscollaborative working session
where we can help each otherthrough these coding challenges
and we'll all learn together.
And so I thought it was a geniusidea Like this is great.
We all will spend time doingthis instead of playing ping
pong.
Isn't that a better result?
(31:22):
And he pulls me aside.
He's like stop doing that.
I think that's a waste of time.
And I'm like I honestly didn'teven know what to do at that
point, like how do you react inthat situation?
Do you like actually fight it,or you just say like, okay, that
was.
I think that was my response.
I was just like all right.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I mean, I thought it was a good idea.
What can you say?
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, it's like it's your manager and they just tell
you to cut it out and you'relike, all right, well, I feel
really discouraged.
You obviously don't think thiswas a good idea, and you didn't
even really hear me out.
All you heard was one sentenceand you just told me to stop.
And then all my team was askingme the next week like, hey, why
don't we stop doing this?
And I was like how do I respondnow to not make this person
look like an absolute jerk?
Speaker 1 (32:03):
I have a.
I have a side question beforewe proceed.
Do you know if this managermade it in the big corp merger
that happened in the last year?
Did they?
Were they part of merger?
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I have no idea.
I hope not okay, I hope not,they were I.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
I hated that individual so much.
They were such a blight just onhumanity.
Like that attitude, thatpersonality, the, the, the
unflinching resolve to hurtmorale, to hinder education, all
at the sake of like beingperceived as more productive.
(32:40):
It's like just everything aboutthat is so wrong.
It's so wrong.
And this person you made my jawtense up in retelling that
story.
Thank you.
The first strike has been felt.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Lower tier middle management.
It's not like they were thisimportant individual.
It was first tier above anindividual contributor
management and on the back endof the worst part of the product
to be working on.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
They thought they were, though they thought
because I remember like I didn'ttruly understand management at
that time and like this personthought they were an executive,
like in how they acted, how theyoperated, how they carried
themselves, like they expectedto be treated like an executive.
This person was a freakingdeveloper manager Like, bro, no
one cares about you, you donothing for this company.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Oh yeah, I'll give a positive, that's a negative.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
I'll give a positive because in my past and we talked
about this numerous times, wedon't have to go deep into it
Every time I've stepped outsideof my role, I've gotten promoted
and moved into a differentdepartment, so that's really
benefited me.
When I was a developer, ourproduct was so technically
complicated None of the salesengineers at the company could
demo it.
I started doing demos, notknowing that I was like helping
(33:57):
the sales cycle, and then one ofmy mentors, jj, came in and
said hey, you should do this fora job.
They'll pay you more.
I was like, oh, really Cool, Ienjoy this a lot more.
Anyway, yeah, went to salesbecause of that Like started
just going above and beyond insales.
I was speaking at conferences, Iwas coming up with
presentations.
I was doing a lot more thanjust the sales engineering thing
(34:19):
.
And my my mentor at the time,alex not Restrepo, another Alex
said hey, you should domarketing, you're really good at
this.
And then I left and didmarketing.
So you absolutely can.
But I will say like in both ofthose cases I was doing my job
well, like I would say meetsexpectation on my current job
and then was able to provemyself for other job as someone
(34:43):
who could really bring value andchange if we bring them into
this organization.
But I had to leave my previousjob in both of these cases,
which is why, you know, I'mhaving that conversation with my
teammate today, like, hey, Isee what you're doing, like I
owe you what's been owed to me,like there's potential for your
growth in the future if youfollow this path.
That's a real positive that itcan occur.
Or you can have what happenedto Clark happen to you.
(35:06):
So you know it's.
It can go one of two ways.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yep, yeah, I, I a hundred percent agree, and I
think when you have goodmanagement, or at least good
people around you, to your point, like those things can lead you
into things you're moreinterested in and your natural
talents might be able to shinemore, which is why you should
explore those things.
Yep, and I think you know, inmy case I did a planned exit on
the team.
I found a different team, but Istayed in the company and the
(35:30):
second I went to that team.
Like I was a little gun shy,I'm not going to lie.
I'm like proposing new thingsbecause I was like well, is this
just the way every manager isgoing to be?
But as a new manager, like Ishowed him.
I showed the individual onething and I was like, hey, check
this out, like learning andchallenging themselves, and he
was like blown away.
He's like I need like an hourwith you to like go through this
(35:50):
, because this is really, reallycool and this is going to help
me be a better manager.
And I'm like that's whathappens when you get underneath
a good manager.
They encourage those things andI remember there were times
where I like started doingsomething, is like I'm trying to
think about how this would beuseful, and I actually think I
could use your help with thesethings instead.
And so, like he did his job, hewent back and he said how do I
find more challenging work thatI need help with, that?
(36:12):
I can put this talented personon and put the efforts towards
that.
And so he redirected thatenergy to something valuable.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
You know what's wild about this whole conversation is
like when I, when I read thetopic and thought we should, we
should talk about this in thisepisode, I was thinking about
how you and I could talk aboutbeing this kind of a player and
how there's positives andnegatives for it.
But what we have talked aboutmore than anything else is how
management handles a players,and really the moral of the
(36:40):
story here is don't be an aplayer under a bad manager,
right Like when you interviewfor a job or when you get moved
into a new department.
If you smell that your manageris an asshat, then this is not
the kind of role where you wantto be that sort of expert
outgoing.
Let's go help these otherpeople, Cause you're going to
(37:01):
find yourself stuck and probablyburning yourself out really
quickly.
But if you're in a manager thathas good ability to navigate
both upwards and downwards, themanagement structure that can
help you find new opportunities,it's interested in, invested in
growing you.
This is the perfect opportunityto go that extra mile, prove
yourself and move upwards in thecompany.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, that's such an important insight.
It's like maybe that's what itall comes back to.
You know, as we're kind oftalking about this, it's like it
does depend on your management.
I don't think there's ever ascenario where a B manager or a
C manager is going to encourageand support you in this ever.
Nope.
I don't think there's ever beena turnaround comeback story
(37:43):
where it's like B manager hiresa player, a player does all this
work, b manager grows into an Amanager.
I don't think that has everhappened in the history of
corporate time.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Nope, the only way it's going to work for you is if
you have a B or C manager.
If you start courting an Amanager in a different
department, like I'm going tohelp you, but you're going to
help me too.
Like and set those expectations.
Like I'm really interested inyour team.
Like love to help you out,interested, you know, if you
have any positions in the future, I would love to come work for
you.
Like set that out early,because you might find yourself
(38:14):
in a situation where you'rebeing punished for helping them
with no exit beyond leave thecompany.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yep, absolutely.
I have two last thoughts.
Lay them on me.
One is once you get and I don'tknow if you feel this way,
maybe not so much in a startupculture, but once you're well,
no, maybe more, I don't knowTell me what you think.
So in enterprise, like whenyou're part of a big
organization, you need to belooked at.
When you're in the managementranks and you're trying to grow
(38:41):
as a collaborative andsupportive partner to all those
groups, regardless of what yourboss thinks.
When it comes to promotioncycles, the other bosses are
going to make decisions on whogets promoted to the next level
and they're all going to have toagree on it, and so when they
do that calibration, they decideon promotions and everything.
You want them to be supportive,as well as your current boss in
(39:05):
your promotion.
So your current boss will bringit up and if no one else knows
about you, it's going to bereally hard to get promoted.
But if everyone else is likeBruce is that guy.
My whole entire team loves him,they talk about him, they're so
thankful he helps out with allthis stuff, that's super
important once you get to acertain rank but I said
something key there it's yourcurrent manager has to propose
(39:26):
it.
You have to be on a goodstanding with your current
manager in order for that tomatter.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Completely agree.
I absolutely agree, yeah, yeah,I mean, if this gets even
harder, if you have that B or Cmanager, because it's very hard
to please them and they're notgoing to fight for you because
all they care about isthemselves and keeping their
little patch of land that theythink gives them their power.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah, if Bruce was a BRC manager, he comes into these
calibration meetings like Brucewho you got for promotion this
year.
You're like no one.
No, they all suck Working onthe team.
No one deserves me.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
But I heard Clark was training people doing all this
activity.
Yeah, but he's not doing hisjob, Doesn't deserve it.
You need to tell him.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, I'm really the only reason this team is staying
afloat and that we'recontributing back to the company
, but I'm going to get my teamthere this year.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
You're making my jaw clench up again, just clenching,
it's happening Involuntaryresponse.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yes.
Last thing when you're an Aplayer and I think this is my
most important note in thegrowth that I've had in my
career In the beginning you kindof say yes to everything.
It's kind of good to do thatbecause you figure out a lot of
things, you get to learn moreparts of the business.
It's good to do that.
But at some point you have tosay yes to the right things and
(40:48):
you end up saying no to morethan the right things.
Right, and I think that's animportant like growth
perspective.
It's in the beginning, you'rejust trying to get your name out
there.
Once everybody knows who you areand they see you as that player
, it's no longer about helpingeverybody if you want to get
promoted.
It's about helping the rightpeople and doing the right
things, which ends up beingsaying no to more and more.
(41:09):
I think as I've grown in mycareer, like in the beginning, I
was like yes to everything.
I was helping every team, doingextra hours, whatever it took,
just to get my name out there.
But once I was well known, itwas about.
Now I need to say no to thesegroups because they're not going
to influence my career.
This stuff is not thatimportant to the company,
because I understand that, andthen this is what I need to be
doing.
So I ended up saying no to morethan I say yes to now.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
There is a prioritization practice that has
to occur, and this is where itrequires a little bit of I don't
know like keen, decisivedissection of the politics of
your organization.
Because if you go help the teamthat has Clark's manager or
(41:50):
Clark's past manager on it, letme tell you what's going to
happen.
You just help the team that'sgoing to appreciate you, but
that manager is never going tosing your praises because they
don't like you, they don't likeanyone but themselves.
Or you could help a team thathas a manager that's like hey,
I'm all about growing people,I'm all about the company, I'm
all about you.
Know how do we make this placebetter?
(42:11):
Clark's coming here, he'shelping out.
I just have to give him a shoutout when it comes to your
calibration time, Like, yeah,Clark's manager saying we should
give them more.
Other managers says, yeah, theycome and help my team all the
time.
Definitely worth it.
So you do have to pay attentionto the politics and you do have
to read the temperature of thebusiness at the management level
(42:32):
, which is going to be weirdbecause you're always so focused
on your peers and the othercontributors at your level that
you're never really looking up.
But I will say, like if youwant to play this game the right
way, you need to look up andmaybe even like one or two
layers up who's looking at you.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Well said, and I think this is the career
maturity.
It's like in the beginning,once you I don't even know if
it's career, organizational liketime spent at the company.
That's why you say yes toeverything in the beginning, so
you can learn who actually isgood here, who's actually
working on important stuff, whodoes leadership look at, and
like all that is part ofunderstanding the corporation.
What's important?
(43:13):
I should have started with thiswhat's important to the
business?
And, like you don't learn thatstuff until you start saying yes
to things outside of your lane.
And then, once you know thatstuff, you know where to put
that energy.
You're like, okay, this isgoing to matter, this isn't.
And that's when you have to, toyour point, be really strict on
what you prioritize and I thinkthat's you know.
I don't know how many yearsthat is.
Some people can probably do itfaster than others, but you can
probably start getting a feelfor that within a year.
It's like, okay, I kind ofunderstand how this business
(43:35):
works.
I understand who's good, who'sA players, who's B players.
I'm going to start saying no toeverybody I was helping out
prior because their stuffdoesn't really matter the stuff
that does.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Completely agree.
I think that does.
I think that's it.
I think we did it, which isgood because I've got great news
, clark, oh no, I got great news.
Oh no, guess what is it near?
As a corporate.
We sent out a challenge afterthe last episode.
We said, hey, you got anyembarrassing stories that can
top what we've got?
And then we said, if you gotany embarrassing stories that
can top what we've got, and thenwe said, if you want to do it,
you go on the discord, you jointhe discord, you go to our link
(44:15):
tree, join.
Whatever you do, you do, you doyou and you go to the is a
mirror as a corporate channel.
Forward slash confess andanonymous confessions will be
shared with us that we can readlive on the pod.
And we've got two bangers youready?
Speaker 2 (44:33):
I have not read any of these because I'm so behind
in the discord I'm gonna getcaught up, I promise no don't
worry, I got you I got youanonymous confession.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
A colleague noticed that our boss is on a team's
call while in the bathroom stall.
Some people like to livedangerously.
That's a good one, oh man.
I cannot tell you the number oftimes when I was in sales I
heard toilets flush on the phone.
No, it's more than 10.
It's more than 10.
No, 10?
(45:04):
, yeah, yeah.
And then when I go toconferences, when I go to work
conferences this happens today,because I still work a lot of
conferences I'll go in thebathroom and they'll just be
like Sales Bro on the phone,dropping a dooski, making all
kinds of noise and it's like oh,yeah, yeah, we got to close
this business Tuesday.
If it's not Tuesday, we're notmaking the deal.
(45:24):
Oh, geez, sorry, I just rippeda big one.
I just ripped a big and I justripped a big and hopefully the
deal closes.
That like I'm not kidding man,it's bad, do not do this.
I think so much less.
Like I get it.
Nature calls, as someone wholives with IBS, like I have
become very good at okay, themeeting's wrapped up.
I'm gonna run to the bathroom.
(45:45):
I'm gonna do what I need to do.
I'm gonna get back to my, myregular day, but like plan this
stuff out.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Bake those five minute breaks into your day.
Do not take the call from thetoilet, please, please.
You know this had me thinking.
Is it because of what you saidtoilets flushing noises like?
Is it just because you heardsomething?
Is it because a camera turnedon just like a blip and then
turned off?
Or is it because you are in thesame bathroom with your boss
(46:18):
and you know they're on thatcall while you're on that call
and you're like, oh man, we'reboth in here together, but
they're in the stall and I'm not.
I know they're in here.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
I mean it can happen either way.
I mean in this case case, theboss is on the team's call while
in the bathroom stall.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
So like it has to be, has to be they stepped away,
but the boss is still on thecall, like yeah or do they just
own it like the sales bro, andthen they turn on the camera and
be like all right guys, let'sget this business done In the
toilet.
Hey, whatever it takes,whatever it takes, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
You know, as I pinch off this clencher, I just want
to make sure you guys know thatI love you.
I care about your business morethan anything in the world.
That's why I'm taking this callright now.
I'm going to give you a no wipe.
All right, like I'm goingstraight to the sink wash my
hands.
Get back to my desk on this oneIf it gets the deal across the
line for end of day businesstoday.
You know what I'm saying, bro.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
I'm a flush this thing, and then we're going to
hash it out.
Hey, great work guys.
Great collaboration man.
I wish they had a bidet on thisso I don't have to wipe 30
times.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Let's get this business going.
So, so inappropriate, grosslyinappropriate.
We.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
So inappropriate, grossly inappropriate.
We have another one.
Oh, I love that.
Our second one.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
President at the startup I worked at used to
bring her tiny white dog intoour fairly small office.
Besides the fact that theMuslim guy on our team was
terrified of dogs, the dogregularly took a dump on the
floor.
Reporting this to her was not acomfortable conversation.
I'm dying.
I'm dying.
If you have anyone on your team, it doesn't matter their
(47:52):
religious beliefs and they'reafraid of dogs, that's a legit
thing to be afraid of.
My dogs have been attacked bydogs.
I know people who've beenattacked by dogs.
Dog fear is real.
I had this sidebar Sidebar.
Why are people so afraid ofspiders when dogs do so much
more damage to people thanspiders ever have?
(48:12):
I don't understand.
Like I, I actually enable thespiders in my house.
If I see you in a corner, I'llbe like oh good, little spider,
let me help you up.
I'll like lift them up into thecorner.
Like build your web, keep themosquitoes free.
I see a dog running in thestreet.
I'm like okay, am I going tohave to defend my dogs from this
rabbit beast that might chompinto their brain meat Like just
(48:35):
a small sidebar, but anyway,clark.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
I have no problems with spiders, but dogs, like as
it gets into it's a beast,they're beasts.
This is a wild animal that surewe we've tamed but at any point
could snap.
You know that that thing to go,absolutely animal like they are
, could flip in their brain atany moment and start attacking
(49:01):
for whatever reason so I 100agree.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
12 pound malty poo has bit into humans and larger
dogs because he's an idiot likeyou cannot explain.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
They're beasts, they're beasts we shouldn't have
tamed them.
That's really what you'resaying.
I mean it's.
Some dogs are incredible.
I'm a big.
I'm a big animal person, but Ido believe, like if crap goes
down, I will take it out, I willdo the needful, and it
separates in my mind of lovableman's best friend to.
(49:34):
This is a wild beast and I'mprotecting my family.
They have.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
They have just rows of the sharpest teeth.
You know like 100 percent to tothe confession of this.
Like I have been in an officewhere someone brought in their
dogs before.
Like I in my first tech job itwas an internship I worked at a
company and they had these twobulldogs which hung out in the
office sweetest things.
(49:59):
They literally would just sleep, like at your feet.
They would find a pair of feetin the office and they go lay on
them and sleep on them and theywere really cute and they were
fun, loved having them around.
It was great for the culture.
I don't know if they askedeveryone in that office if it
was okay to have dogs there.
You know, like I just joinedand the dogs is there and I like
dogs, I was excited to see it.
But it's very inconsiderate notto check with everyone who the
(50:21):
dog is going to be seeing, ifthey have a phobia.
And also dogs smell a fearresponse in human beings.
Like if the human is afraid,the dog becomes afraid and that
can cause problems too.
Just, absolutely I don't thinkit's a bad idea but it's
something that you have to bevigilant about.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Like 100 this could go wrong so many ways because,
like, also there's so manydifferent things that could
happen in office.
Like you guys could get excitedand be high-fiving.
Each other dog might be likewhat the heck is happening, like
I'm about to freak out and likedogs can change their behavior
really quick depending on thescenario.
Like you, you can't predictthat it's going to be exactly
like every scenario you've beenin, because we're people.
(51:00):
Like things are going to happendifferent situations the dog
has never experienced.
Like it's not fair to the dog,it's not fair to the office
because it's not just in general.
It's not good office behavior.
Would I, if I had my own office, bring a dog in?
Absolutely, but I would checkwith everybody that that's cool
and I'd make sure they'recontained in like an actual
office rooms, not just roamingrandomly with everybody?
(51:20):
That's dangerous.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
I mean, in this case, president of the startup.
You know, like worst casescenario is that the individual
who was terrified of dogs getsbit.
They go to the you know theanimal control, say, hey, this,
there is a dog that bit me.
The president has to put thisdog down and continue to employ
this person who has effectivelyhad their dog killed.
(51:44):
Like this is a zero winscenario for anybody because you
can't fire them.
Oh, I'm gonna fire you becausemy dog bit you, drew blood and
then you had it put down likejust don't just stay away.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
This, the funniest part to me about this, is it's
not like it took a dump on thefloor and then you're like hey
boss, uh dog, took a dump ski onthe in the middle of the hall.
Can you, you like, get that?
It's regularly took a dump onthe floor Like who cleaned that
up?
Is that a?
roast there for a second.
You walk into the boss or thepresident.
(52:18):
He's like hey, I'm on a call,be there in 30 minutes, just
gotta sit there, like well yourdog's feculents are literally
steaming up the break room.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
It's a health hazard.
Maybe you should take care ofthis.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I'm trying to wrap up forthat.
These are incredible.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
These are incredible.
Please don't stop.
I know it's the Is it Me or Isit?
Corporate channel, but I'm justgoing to say let's keep the
embarrassing story train going.
If you have them, join ourDiscord.
If you're already in thediscord, you know what to do.
Go in there.
Forward slash.
Confess, I love these.
I think they are great.
Please I mean I love it beforewe drop.
This is the longest podcastever, but we have to do this.
Oh boy, there is a meme.
(53:00):
And what do you mean?
Oh no, clark, this is going tobe the first time we do this.
This is going to be a bi-hostelmeme, and what I mean by that
is you're going to explain itand then I'm going to evaluate
if you did it justice.
And then I'm going to explainit Because, as someone who grew
up with a Nintendo, I feel likeyou can do this, but if you
(53:22):
can't, I'm going to step in.
So the evaluation has begun.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Is this the one bourgeoisie correspondent
actually wrapped up with?
Okay, there, the evaluation hasbegun.
Is this the one bourgeoisiecorrespondent Alex?
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Reshapo posted.
Okay, there was a lot, I toldyou.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
I haven't gotten caught up, so I just went to
that channel.
I was way up here and I had toscroll all the way down to get
to this.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
My wife's on the channel now, so you can thank
her for that.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Oh boy, and it's Read the Succession podcast.
Okay, okay, interesting.
I'm trying to get new contexthere, okay, so just a quick
briefing.
What happens in this segment iswe explain GIFs and memes with
our mouth parts and you can'tsee them unless you're in the
Discord.
So if you actually want to seewhat we're talking about, you
got to get in the Discord Quickplug.
(54:02):
This one is a classic oldschool Mario gaming scene and on
the left is Mario.
It says Clark's employee, onthe right is Toad.
It says their current role andI don't know what else to take
(54:23):
on this.
I mean, what?
Speaker 1 (54:24):
am I missing?
Hold on hold on.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
It's been a long day.
It might hit me, don't say ityet.
Don't say it yet.
Don't say yeah, I've let itcook, I'm letting it cook.
I got nothing.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Oh, clark, clark, okay, you are.
I do often forget becauseyou're so much wiser than me, I
forget that you're also like 20years younger than me.
Have you played this game?
I have, okay.
Have you beaten Bowser at allin this game?
No, okay, okay.
(55:03):
So there's where the disconnecthappened.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
Okay, I never made it that far because I was too
young at this point to actuallyunderstand what I was doing in
the game.
So I played the pre-levels andjust died and then quit.
Yeah, it's a hard game.
Speaker 1 (55:14):
I never beat Bowser.
It's a hard game.
I mean they're only at World1-4.
It only gets harder from there.
So, clark, when you beat Bowser, at the end of each world
little Mario walks up to Toadand Toad's like Mario, your
princess is in another castleand like that's the bit right,
Like your princess is in anothercastle.
(55:35):
So you have to go to anotherworld and beat Bowser because
Bowser's moving Peach aroundlike she's some weird investment
in a foreign company.
So what the meme is suggestinghere is Clark's employee is
Mario RE, the Succession podcast.
Their job is in anotherdepartment.
It's a meta meme.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
So good, good it's, good, it's so good, it's really
good yeah, this is thedisconnect.
I definitely played this, butI've never gotten to Bowser.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
I'm sorry.
You know in your defense notjust because you're young this
game is one of the hardest games, Like old school Nintendo games
, they just made your fingersbleed, and this one's a hard one
, I think.
In order to beat Bowser youbasically have to jump over his
flame, get the axe, take it tothe bridge Like it's not easy,
(56:29):
and you have limited lives.
This is before the advent ofthe Konami code and getting
extra lives.
So you know I sympathize withyou and understand this does
mean that when we finally dostart streaming games, I'm going
to force you to play throughthis.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
This has no help Whatsoever, I agree.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
It's Pepsi man, it's Mario, that's it.
That's it, that's all Only livestreams.
Speaker 2 (56:53):
Only two options, guys.
Choose which one.
Take your pick Well we've run10 out of 10.
This might.
Speaker 1 (57:04):
This might be one of the most best meta memes we've
ever had.
I 100% agree, layers.
Love it.
I 100% agree.
Layers Love it.
Good job, alex.
We're going to have you backsoon to discuss more pod topics
that we've neglected to get toListen.
Y'all, it's been a long one, soall I'm going to tell you to do
is get your butt in our Discord.
(57:24):
If you're not, and if you're inour Discord, just say what up.
We love the community.
We love the participation.
We love the memes, thesemirrors, the corporates, the
embarrassing stories.
Join our discord by clicking onthe show notes, click the link
tree.
Join.
If you want to buy stuff, youcan buy stuff on that link tree.
If you want to send us money,you can send us money.
But today it's all about thediscord, because this topic came
(57:45):
from the discord, the storiescame from the discord and the
meme came for discord.
So shout out discord.
We love our community.
If you're not in there, get inthere.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
So good Like, share, subscribe.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:00):
Ring the bell.
Do it all.
Ring the bell, do it all, doall the things.
Share it with your friends.
Share everything you do withyour friends.
If you make a bowel movement,share that with your friends too
.
It's all important.
This is how you close deals.
Pics or it didn't happen?
No, no.
The one thing we will nottolerate in the discord is pics
(58:20):
of the sales bros, bowelmovements, as he's closing the
deal.
We will not.
We have a moderation team.
That's a write out.
Speaker 2 (58:28):
It's incredible.
I get a good corporatism.
Dandes, you ready?
Oh perfect, hit me, all right.
And then you close it out.
You got this, I'm ready, I'mready for it, all right, all
right, folks, keep on evaluatingyour organizational maturity.
Peace out.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
I just threw up, I thought I was ready to end it, I
was ready to end it, I wasready to end it.
Speaker 2 (58:53):
How dare you, how dare you say that into a
microphone Got him.
I'm.
Speaker 1 (58:58):
Bruce and I'm Clark and you're on mute.
Thankfully You'd be vomitingtoo.
We'll see you next week.
No, I've lost the chat.
I went.
I went into the discord now.
Oh, there it is.
I'm in a mood today.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Say it to his face.
You said it before he was evenhere.
Say it now.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
All right, shut up, craig.
I'm in a mood today.
I'm in a mood.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
That's right, you freaking beaver About time you
get in here.
You're running late, you'resquirreling us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Why aren't you recording this podcast five
minutes ago, when we gave thebest advice in the world?
Why weren't you in here?
You missed all of it.
This is why we I'm going totake an investigative, analytic
look at our podcast funds andfees, and I think Craig's on the
chopping block to go.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I agree.
No severance package either.
He's gone, no.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I'm going to turn Craig into an innie.
Actually, sadly, I think Craigis an innie.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I was about to say I think he's completely severed
because he knows nothing unlesshe's branded the channel.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Literally goes into a liminal space of non-existence
when not recording this podcast,I can't imagine a worse fate.
What's?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
your job oh.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I listen to two knuckleheads talk about work for
an hour every week.
It's great, fantastic.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
What was that movie or show where the robot oh, it's
Rick and Morty.
You pass butter, the robot.
Yeah, the robot comes in andhe's like my life is to pass
butter.
Yes, oh my god, yeah, that'shis job so good, this is your
job, craig, the only reasonyou're alive.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
You know what our job is.
What's that?
Welcome back to CorporateStrategy a podcast that's going
to be named I'm Bruce and I'mClark.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
It was quick this week.
It was quick yeah you actuallydo.
You think we'll ever go back toactually doing it without any
banter?
That's just how you do theintro With guest episodes.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I think it's just easier, unless it's like your
recurring guest and they knowthe bit.
But, like when I had my wife on, it was super awkward because
it's just like I don't know howto talk to you like a podcast
host.
I don't know how to talk to youas a wife.
How am I supposed to talk toyou?
Like I'm scared.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
And you want to be more formal, more polite than we
are with each other, so youdon't want to like banter it up
at the beginning and make themuncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah, that's probably the only case.
Yeah, yeah, no, I think guestsPlural.
That's the only way.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, I like it.
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (02:23):
No, your turn, no, no your turn you go first, let me
go first, you go first, okaywhat am I doing?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
pinkies up vibe check .
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Okay, my pinkies up in the air, vibe check.
I'm doing swell.
I'm doing swell.
I'm still on my swell kick.
Um, this week was long.
Twice this week I woke upthinking it was Friday,
wednesday and Thursday, so itwas a long week.
It was a productive week andgot my big launch out of the way
(02:56):
, which I have literally beenworking on this thing since
November.
I am so happy to have it behindme.
We got one more big thingcoming up.
It's an event I got to go toSan Diego for, and then it's
like my life just becomes lessstressed around deadlines and
more just focused on doing work.
So I'm seeing, I'm seeing the.
(03:17):
I'm seeing the clearing at theend of the forest.
The question is is the light inthe, the clearing, is it clear
or is it on fire?
Only time will tell and I mustwalk into it, so we will see.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
But I'm personally doing great, doing, doing great
I love the excitement coming outof you right now.
I mean, that's a fair point.
People always say, yeah, thelights at the end of the tunnel,
but you don't know what'screating the light.
Is it a whole city burning downbecause a nuke just took off?
Like you don't know what you'reriding that train into?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I'm just saying the light could literally be the
atomic breath of godzilla justapproaching you quicker and
quicker by the moment, and allit's gonna be left to you is
like it's gonna be like littleshoes and the smoke coming off
your feet.
Yeah, that's all that's goingto be left to you is like it's
going to be like little shoesand the smoke coming off your
feet.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, that's all that's going to be left to you.
That's it.
That's all that's going to beleft.
Yeah, I feel like that's mylife right now, like we're about
to have a really big launch.
I say launch.
You know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
In a month and a half .
My launch is like one onethousandth of your launch, so
just give the listeners an ideahere.
It's a pretty big deal.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Huge yes, it's huge, it's a pretty big deal.
So we're doing this massivelaunch and, luckily, we've been
doing a lot of beta testing, alot of beta testing, a lot of
active users just to reallystress test the system, you know
, and so far it's going really,really well.
So I think we're going to be ina really good spot Even when we
(04:46):
hit a hundred X what we'reseeing right now in terms of
volume.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I?
When do I get to beta test yourlaunch, clark?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
when do I get to beta test, I might give you some
premier access.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It's not too far away .
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I don't think Okay Be on the lookout.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
We'll be in touch.
I Be on the lookout.
We'll be in touch.
I'm going to hold you to it.
I'm going to hold you to this.
You'll get to beta test it.
You'll have a great time.
Good, okay, I expect to.
I expect nothing less.
If otherwise, it will be allyour fault.
Do you realize?
Any of my dissatisfaction is adirect reflection upon you.
This will all be brought backup in your performance review,
(05:22):
which I'll be sending to yourmanagement, so just be prepared
for that.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
There's only one rule when you beta test this, you
are not allowed to fill out anysurvey.
I want nothing from you.
You just get to experience thebeta and that's it.
No feedback.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Your boss comes in on Monday, Clark.
I got a survey from someonenamed Bruce no last name.
No, Bruce Corporate Strategy.
I don't think that's a realname.
They said he needs improvementon every category.
They also said someone named.
(06:00):
Clark, specifically, has reallyfailed them.
Who is Clark?
Who is this person Saidspecifically?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
he attacked me in plain sight and this needs to be
escalated.
This needs to be escalated tomanagement.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Why is a knife-wielding maniac named
Clark experiencing our beta?
That's all I want you to gothrough in life.
Is that specific review withyour manager?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
He kept going on and on about how he has all this
intel on what we're doing.
He's going to release it to theworld to kill all of our
marketing campaigns and he'sthreatening to do it on what he
said was episode 175?
I don't even know what thatmeans.
Do it on what he said wasepisode 175.
I don't even know what thatmeans.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
His one to man was a copy of the PlayStation one game
, Pepsi man, only released inJapan.
I think we need to send it tohim.
This feels like an imminent tohim now.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
This is going to compromise our whole launch.
You better get this done.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
You better, you better, and that's how we do the
live stream.
This is how we're going tocompromise our whole launch.
You better get this done.
You better, you better, andthat's how we do the live stream
.
This is how we're going to getthe live stream.
I'm going to hold you hostageand no one's going to know.
But we are going to get Pepsiman, I promise you.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I love it.
I am so in for this.
So yeah, my life in the nextthree months.
It could either be great orit's going to be great, or it's
going to be a burning fire ofhell, and I don't know what the
end of the tunnel is for meright now.
I think it's going to be goodbecause all signs indicate
greener pastures andeverything's going to be
glorious, but we'll find outmonth and a half two months.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
speaking of signs, yeah, I saw a sign.
I saw a road sign, a road signfor the beta, which I thought
was interesting.
It wasn't like set up, it wason the road.
I was like, oh, this is whereroad signs get made.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Interesting.
You've got to be creative inyour guerrilla marketing, you
know.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Well, I mean, I think this is more like government
road sign, but yes, yes, it justgot me thinking about things in
general.
Anyways, I can't be talkingabout betas, all.
All pod.
We have a top, we have a.
We have quite a few topics thathave like built up over the
years of us not listening to ourlisteners.
But I read one and realized Iactually never read it.
But we have to talk about this.
(08:23):
Uh, I'm dealing with this,about this.
Uh, I'm dealing with this, youdeal with this and I I'm dealing
with it both directions.
So this comes from Monroe,previous guest on the pod.
Uh, she wrote managingperceptions when you are highly
ambitious and a high performer.
I've consistently run intocolleagues and leaders those
directly impacting my upwardmobility who view high capacity
(08:45):
as doing a lot.
Or why not focus on yourcurrent role or learn when to
say no?
I take it to heart, but Iconsistently execute on time and
early in all areas I'm involvedwith, along with high quality
output parentheses confirmedthrough feedback through my end
of year review last Friday.
It leaves me frustrated andlike I can't believe I didn't
(09:08):
read this earlier in the month.
But like I live this, I thinkyou live this, and I've also got
a team that lives this, so Ifigure we can bring some
insights to the woes and thebains of being a high performer
working outside of your oftenday-to-day responsibilities this
(09:30):
is immediate reaction yeah, Iwant to know what's.
What's your immediate reaction?
Speaker 2 (09:35):
one monroe, thanks for the banger always bringing
the hits.
This is going to be always,because I totally agree, I think
we all kind of have lived inthat space and I've lived in it.
I'm recalling a few differentscenarios where this has
happened and in my current roleI'll do present and then I'll
(09:56):
move into historical where, likeit started and I started
getting this kind of sense.
So when you have a lot going on, you know, especially in my
role, you can continue to justget more and more work and
obviously leadership looks ateverything that's going on and
they think you're taking on toomuch and it's going to put
higher priority things at risk,even though you consistently
(10:19):
deliver.
And I think there's a little bitof fear from like leaders that
you might show them up, that youmight just be doing too much in
general, that they want you tobe doing other things other than
the thing you're doing, exceptfor they don't know what it is
they'd rather you be doing.
And so I think that's like thehardest thing about this
situation is no one can actuallyarticulate why I remember I was
(10:41):
having a skip level meetingjust because we checked in every
month, why I remember I washaving a skip level meeting just
because we checked in everymonth and my current boss walked
by the room and they looked atthe skip level and they were
like don't give Clark any morework, he's got plenty of work to
do and I'm sitting in thismeeting like I know.
I have plenty of work to do, andthat's not what I'm asking for.
I'm asking for higher levelwork, not more work.
(11:02):
There's plenty of work to do,but I want to be involved in
something that's going tochallenge me and where I'm going
to learn, which will innatelylikely be more work.
But it's not about the volumeof work and the stuff I can do
right now in my sleep.
That's keeping me up.
It's like I want to beambitious, I want to do that
next thing and be challenged,and unfortunately, I think
certain bosses just won't letyou do that, for many different
(11:22):
reasons.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
sorry, yes, when I'm not how you feel, no, no no,
well, uh, I thought I think youwere gonna start with your your
current and then go back in thepast.
I thought you were gonna takethe past back.
Should I do it or we do current?
let's do current first okay,well, so, counter to your point,
um, I've seen what you've livedthrough, but I don't live with
(11:46):
that.
Today, if anything, I have theopposite problem, where going
outside of your role and takingon more things is greatly
encouraged because that's thestartup way, right?
So, hey, I can take this thingon not my job, not even in my,
not even in a departmentresponsibilities but I can do it
.
Great, please do that, becausewe don't have people that can,
(12:09):
uh, perfect examples.
I have a teammate on my teamwho is just the smartest guy
I've ever met and he's atechnical wizard like you can
give him any technical problem,it's going to solve it.
He's our community manager.
This is the person who, like,runs our community, but also,
you give him our product or, uh,you know a technical problem
(12:31):
and he's going to go in thereand find every single thing he
can about it.
Like, things that are, you know, our q, a and r and d aren't
even finding.
Like, that's just the level ofintelligence this guy has.
I'm like, well, your job is x,but given your talents and
abilities and passion for thesethings, like, please continue to
do this, because, one, it feedsinto the marketing that we do,
(12:51):
right.
Like it's great to havetechnical authority and to like
back up everything we say withlike real good technical
soundness coming from myteammate.
But also like who's going to doit right?
Like we were lacking thisbefore, now we have it, he's
doing it.
Do it right.
Like we were lacking thisbefore, now we have it, he's
doing it.
Yeah, it's not his job at all,but you know, thank Odin, he's
in here doing the work becauseno one else will.
(13:12):
But you can only do that at astartup.
Because I think about workingat Big Corp and he would
literally get yelled at, wristslapped, hit for doing this kind
of thing there.
Because how dare you stepoutside of your department and
go help a completely differentdepartment with their work right
?
Like that's the difference inbig corp and big startup is in
(13:34):
one of these places it's highlyencouraged, in the other it
becomes like a don't go off anddo this now, cause you've got
your day-to-day responsibilitieswhich you might be crushing.
You might actually need morework because you're so good at
what you do, but sometimesthey're like don't be doing that
.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah, I think really what it comes down to, you know,
with what you were saying, kindof brought clarity to at least
my point of view.
Yeah, it's not about what'sbest for the company, it's about
what's best for that individualin their role and if you're not
helping them advance theiragenda, then they don't want you
doing it.
In big corp it doesn't matter.
(14:15):
If you're doing something superimportant to help another group
, it could be advancing theiragenda, though it could be.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I mean, this is kind of the folly, right?
You can tell me if you agree,disagree, but I think big corp
is too stupid to realize thatthis individual could help their
agenda because it doesn't fallunder their checklist of or
their excel spreadsheet of checkboxes.
And we have to.
We have to paint by the numbers, because if we don't paint
(14:43):
exactly by this number, thecolors are going to be wrong and
it's like, well, the colorswere always wrong.
Here's how you actually paintthe picture that the customer
wants to see, but like big corphates that, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I think that's part of it.
I think another reason could beand I think it, you know it's
so contextual to where you're atI think another part of it is
having it happen where, let'ssay, you pick this up, you do
really well at it.
There's a couple things thatcould happen.
You know one you could get likepoached by this team to join
(15:15):
their team because it could besomething you really enjoy doing
.
So I think there's always thatfear in the back of their head
I'm going to lose this reallygood person because they're
doing stuff outside of our realmthat may get them interested in
something and then leavebecause this team loves them.
I think another thing thatcould be happening is you could
build something and then a teambecomes dependent on you for
that thing, if that makes sense.
(15:36):
So, like you, build a newsystem.
You help with something, youcrush it.
The team's always going to comeback to you and be like, hey,
can you do this thing again forus?
And so I do think that's notnecessarily a bad thing to look
at.
It's like OK, am I about tolose Bruce?
Because he went and did thisthing and now he has to support
it, and we didn't like thinkabout the logistics of it.
(15:58):
Just, bruce did it.
Now he's on the hook for itbecause it's an important thing
to the company.
Now he can't do his main jobbecause he's always doing this
thing.
That's taken off.
I think you can mitigate thatdown the line, like, if it's as
important as it is to thecompany and that detrimental,
then it's like, okay, well,maybe it's justifying a new
resource or a new tool orsomething like that that can
actually do this thing better.
But I think it is a decentconcern from a leader that
(16:20):
doesn't know all the details tobe like okay, is this going to
be like a one-time thing, or isthis actually going to be like a
every time they need it kind ofthing, and how is that going to
impact your performance longterm?
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Well, it's funny because in my case, I'll tell
you exactly what I'm thinking.
You know, I told my teammatethis today.
I was like look, you're verygood at this.
Like you're good at your job.
You're great at your job,community loves you.
You're also really good at this.
Like I would love to see you bea product manager one day,
because outside of my podcastco-host, there's not a single
(16:54):
intelligent product manager onthe planet and it'd be nice to
have two of them.
Like it'd be really cool tohave two.
So, like you know, I can alwayswe can always find someone to
take your current job.
But like the job you could bedoing, doing like you could be
helping us big way.
So, like I know the way I thinkis not the way corporate things
, because corporate's like no,you got to hire externally for
(17:15):
that.
Like you got to hire someonewho's got the experience, not
someone who can do the job,someone who's had the job.
You know the idiots.
So like that's, that's whowe're gonna go for.
But like man, that gears areturning, I'm like, oh, this
would be, this would be so great, but you don't get that at big
court.
Like very rarely does it playout that way where, hey, that
thing you helped with you savedour bacon.
(17:37):
Would you like to do that fulltime, with a pay raise and a
little bit more?
You know stock or whatever.
Like let's go, we'll findsomeone to replace your current
job.
No, it's get back to your.
Get back to your nine to five.
You know what you did here washelpful, but never do it again.
Like I feel like far too oftenthat is the reward, is a
chastising, and you feel likeshould I not do this, should I
(18:01):
not help?
And I think that's a lot ofwhat Monroe is probably dealing
with in her specific situationis when you go above and beyond
with.
In her specific situation iswhen you go above and beyond,
suddenly this weird magnifyingglass gets put on you, even when
you're an A player and you'rehelping.
It's like why are you doingthis?
Why are you hurting the vibe ofthe company?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's so difficult too,because sometimes it's okay.
I've had this happen where I'lldo something and everybody
would be so happy, even my bossbe like oh yeah, this was great,
so happy you were able to helpwith that and I wish I could say
there was like a defined or adefinitive reason for one or the
other.
Unfortunately there's not, andI think it's because your leader
(18:44):
is privy to information you'renot and has their own
perspectives and politicalideology of the different
empires growing inside ofenterprise and I think that's
part of the challenge is like ifyou're doing something with the
wrong group that they justdon't like or have a bad opinion
of, that can also look bad onyou.
So it's really difficult tofind like, where can I go above
(19:07):
and beyond and still stay in thegood graces of my leadership,
where it's going to becelebrated and not looked at as
a negative?
You know it's funny.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
That was originally going to be our topic today,
because I was like I want tohave a talk, but we talk about
when do you tell the truthversus when do you keep it a
secret.
But I was like, oh no, we havetopics in the PodTop channel, so
we need to come back to that.
We need to come back to that.
You're absolutely right, and Idon't know Hidden agendas, I do
think, play a big part of thisthough.
(19:39):
Absolutely it really does.
Right.
Like you never know, maybe thatteam they're helping is on the
list to get axed and they'rehelping is on the is on the list
to get axed and they're goingto get all replaced with, you
know, outsourced, cheaper laborand you helping them is not
(19:59):
actually helping the granddivision of how the company
operates.
So like, and that's that's justsuper effed up in general, but
like I can totally see thatbeing part of the logic.
It's like, hey, we wanted toget rid of them, now you've
helped them.
This makes it harder to argueour case, kind of thing.
It's that that back channelpolitics.
I hate that.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Cold chills all the time time at big corp.
And yeah, when you'reenterprise, or when you're
enterprise, when you're empirebuilding you, you don't want to
worry about anybody else butyourself, and so you're looking
out for, like the survivalistmentality of your team.
Screw the screw.
What is best for the company?
It's like that doesn't evenmatter.
What matters is your team.
(20:37):
And how do I hire more peopleto my team and take on more
responsibility for the thingsthat we can do?
Well, and that's like the worstthing about corporate.
It's like it's not about theend result, it's just about this
person growing in their role,growing their team, getting more
money, whatever, and thepersonal side of it takes over
the logical side of the bestthing for the company side.
(20:57):
It's really unfortunate.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
It really is.
I want to read a response thatwas made by individual
contributor in our discord.
Also just a constant banger ofan of a of a participant with
all things pod.
They wrote being told to stayin your lane without being
provided a clear policy orperformance reason seems like
poor management.
I could understand that being aconcern if a person's core
(21:20):
duties weren't being met to ahigh enough standard.
I doubt that's the case here.
Not allowing people to work neartheir potential is a cack
killer.
I would say there's one area Ifound productivity imbalances
can be a problem.
I worked under someone whoconsistently put in long hours,
was involved in everything andalmost always worked far ahead
from the rest of the team,whether due to efficiency,
effort or inexperience.
(21:41):
Not being able to work in theforefront of projects because
someone always gets to the workfirst is discouraging.
It can make it hard for thewhole team to feel like they're
contributing and being given anopportunity to grow.
If you're already mindful ofgiving your team members space
to achieve, I would definitelyencourage discussing your goals
with future management.
A negative response is probablya good reason to execute plan X
(22:02):
, which I feel adds even morelayers to this topic.
So what was your thoughts onthat?
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah, I mean, I agree wholeheartedly.
That's actually where I wasgoing to go.
Next is Danny Yonkers isscreaming in the back of my head
to be like this is a managementproblem.
Like if someone on my team istaking something else on, I just
go, stop doing that.
I don't give them any rhyme orreason or like you know
definitive reason why theyshouldn't be doing this thing.
It's discouraging.
It's like okay, well, I guess Ican't do anything without
(22:33):
approval now and all my ideasmight be stupid and I shouldn't
help other teams.
Like it creates such a terribleculture and I think individual
contributors said it best.
It's okay, listen, bruce, yourperformance was a you know, met
expectations this year.
I really think you need to befocusing on how do you get that
to a, you know, whatever highestachiever or whatever it is Like
(22:56):
I want you to get to that,whatever that next level is, and
before you start helping othersand doing all these extra side
projects, I need you to focus onyour core job.
Like that's a good managementdiscussion of being like I want
your performance to be betterbefore you take on this extra
stuff.
Like that's a good managementdiscussion of being like I want
your performance to be betterbefore you take on this extra
stuff and that stuff isn't goingto help you get to that level.
And so like that's a good,valuable discussion where it's
very definitive on, goes back toyour performance review, gives
(23:19):
you definitive guidance on likeyou need to focus on your role,
stay in your lane.
In this case, once you meetthat goal, I'm more than happy
to talk about you know whatopportunities are out there
where you could help others orwhere we could challenge you
more in your current role so youcan continue learning and
helping the broader organization.
Like that's a really positiveconversation if it's approached
that way.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
So I want to challenge that because I agree
it is a positive, it's an inwardfacing approach, right, like
you're telling me hey, you doingthis is great, thank you, but
this is not going to get youpromoted, this is not going to
get you that next 10% raise orwhatever.
Like you're looking out for me,which is what a manager should
do, I'm going to say there's abetter response, which is not to
(24:01):
talk to me at all but to go upand say, hey, we have a problem.
I have a team member who isconstantly helping this team,
this team, this team, this team,because they're not able to do
it on their own.
Why is that?
Like we need to dig into whythey're deficient and they need
my team members time all thetime, because this is an a
(24:21):
player, they're helpingeverybody.
They're not able to rise intheir own stock because they're
constantly having to help others.
Like now you're taking it andsaying what's the actual problem
that's going on here thatrequires all this cross
collaboration and, as a manager,now you're you're helping, kind
of elevate your own stock,saying, hey, you know,
(24:41):
something's not working from anexecution level.
We need to evaluate and figurethis out amongst the other
managers and leaders.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
That is a great response.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I agree and I think the hardest thing Because then
you can fix the individualcontributors problem while also
fixing the wider organizationalproblem.
That's clearly happening.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, no, I agree with you.
At Enterprise, that will justnever happen though.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
No, it won't.
But I mean I'm an idealist solet's go all day long.
I'm going to call out the.
I'm going to punch up wheneverI can.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, absolutely, Because I think that's the
hardest thing.
It's like now, if you're evenif you're a decent manager, it's
like, well, now I got to gotalk to all these other teams
and why their teams suck andmaybe how they need to upscale,
Like that requires a lot ofeffort.
And you, your manager,whoever's managing you, is going
to be like why are you spendingall your time doing this?
Not that important.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Well, in an ideal world, eventually you find the
manager who manages the managersand they would say, okay, what
the heck is going on here, likewhy is no one capable of
managing their team efficiently?
And they should come up with aplan of execution to help
rebalance and fix the problem.
That's not going to happenbecause upper management sucks,
(26:00):
myself included.
So like you're just, you'renever going to get that fix.
But you know, in an idealsituation that's what should
happen.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Let's look at another scenario.
Let's say, like Monroe, highperformer, so as a manager, what
is a positive conversationthere?
It's hey, bruce, high performer, you're doing awesome.
Really appreciate you helpingout this other team.
It seems like maybe there's anopportunity that we could find
more challenging work for you,because you're doing everything
you're doing now.
(26:29):
You're crushing it.
I think we could find morechallenging work in your role so
that you could spend your timefocused on those efforts, so you
could grow.
Or it's hey, bruce, you knowanother way to look at it.
It's okay if this thing iscritical, you know I trust your
judgment on this.
What is the measurement ofsuccess?
Tell me what success looks likefor the long-term of this and
(26:51):
let's see if we can get to thatobjective and then focus on our
vertical, on how we take thatenergy and move it into our
space to make our space better.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
I love that.
I think that's probably themost realistic, best response,
because now you've set a goal.
As a manager, you've done theone thing that you can actually
do, which is what is successdefined as?
How do we either continue thiseffectively or stop doing it,
because you've achieved what youneeded to do.
That's good, clark, that's good.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
That's why you're a manager it's helping the
individual grow Like it's it'ssaying like, as a manager, I
could have, I could rip thataway right now.
That's an option.
I could be like, don't do that,but that's going to be
discouraging.
I'm obviously too late.
I didn't catch this before itstarted, so we can't have a
conversation about it.
They're obviously deep in it,they're passionate about it for
whatever reason, like putting onmy, my manager hat.
(27:44):
It's like this is going to be adetriment to them working here
if I just say no.
And so how do I at least definethe success criteria, the end
goal, make sure they think aboutthat and then say okay, and
then after that let's focusright back into our lane a
little bit.
So you kind of steer them backin and you have to balance that.
You're like how big is the riskif they continue to do this?
(28:06):
Like, do I really think it'sgoing to have a giant detriment,
or do I trust this person thatthey're going to be able to
manage both their current dayjob and this extra thing?
And it sounds like, in at leastthe Monroe's case it's I can do
both and you can trust thatperson to do both.
And now you as a manager have achallenge to say how do I get
them focused on something toimprove our area rather than
(28:27):
having to go outside to improveother people's yep, I think the
the good news is there's a lotmore positive outcomes here than
negative ones.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
In good management, and I think individual
contributors point if it is anegative outcome, plan, exit
immediately, because it's notgoing to get any better for you.
Um, but but but, just like uhclark and I have said in this
past, like sort of hypotheticals, there's a lot of ways this can
go and there's a lot of waysthat this can be treated as a
positive and and be a netpositive both for the individual
(29:00):
as well as the company.
Yeah, 100 agree do you want tojump management?
Speaker 2 (29:07):
oh it does but you want to go to the past where we
can talk about bad management.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Hold on, I've got to fuel my DeLorean here.
I've got a 1.21 gigawatt.
I'm going to have to use somenuclear accelerator for Alright,
we're in the past.
We're in the past.
Everything's great.
I'm not going back.
You can't take me, clark.
I won't this.
I'm not going back.
Everything was great.
You can't take me, clark.
I won't go.
I won't go, I'm staying.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
No, clark, if you remember these times, I mean
they were great.
The pay wasn't great, but therole like what we were doing was
great.
When we started we used to bethis cohesive, beautiful unit.
We were Just a bunch of freakingnerds Diverse group bunch of
freaking nerds diverse group.
It was a very interesting groupof cultures and personalities
and we were so naive to thepoint of great just being there
(29:56):
in that naive little bubble atthe beginning of our careers.
Then we started diverting.
You remember the breakage?
I see the Fisher line coming inbetween our group and once we
start going to these other teamscause we're going so well, this
is when it all went downhilland the scenario I'm thinking of
.
I remember I joined this, thisnew team, with this certain
(30:17):
manager who will not be named,and my team was my team actually
worked pretty well together,like individually, like between
our team.
We had a pretty fun team.
Like we all hung out, we allplayed ping pong, we did all
this stuff.
It was fantastic, and so Iwanted to get better as, at that
time, a software engineer.
I wanted to help my othercoworkers get better as software
(30:37):
engineers because we werelearning a new tech stack.
I was like you know what WeeklyI'm going to set up a
programming challenge.
So I created this programmingchallenge.
Every week I was sending outthis thing to my team.
Somebody forwarded that to ourmanager, so I got called in the
office.
They pulled me aside andthey're like why are you doing
this?
And I'm like, well, you know, Iwant to get better at this.
(31:00):
I forget if it was switchinglanguage or whatever it was, but
I was like I want to get betterat this programming language
and I want the team to do itwith me so we can collaborate
together.
You know, create thiscollaborative working session
where we can help each otherthrough these coding challenges
and we'll all learn together.
And so I thought it was a geniusidea Like this is great.
We all will spend time doingthis instead of playing ping
pong.
Isn't that a better result?
(31:22):
And he pulls me aside.
He's like stop doing that.
I think that's a waste of time.
And I'm like I honestly didn'teven know what to do at that
point, like how do you react inthat situation?
Do you like actually fight it,or you just say like, okay, that
was.
I think that was my response.
I was just like all right.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
I mean, I thought it was a good idea.
What can you say?
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, it's like it's your manager and they just tell
you to cut it out and you'relike, all right, well, I feel
really discouraged.
You obviously don't think thiswas a good idea, and you didn't
even really hear me out.
All you heard was one sentenceand you just told me to stop.
And then all my team was askingme the next week like, hey, why
don't we stop doing this?
And I was like how do I respondnow to not make this person
look like an absolute jerk?
Speaker 1 (32:03):
I have a.
I have a side question beforewe proceed.
Do you know if this managermade it in the big corp merger
that happened in the last year?
Did they?
Were they part of merger?
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I have no idea.
I hope not okay, I hope not,they were I.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
I hated that individual so much.
They were such a blight just onhumanity.
Like that attitude, thatpersonality, the, the, the
unflinching resolve to hurtmorale, to hinder education, all
at the sake of like beingperceived as more productive.
(32:40):
It's like just everything aboutthat is so wrong.
It's so wrong.
And this person you made my jawtense up in retelling that
story.
Thank you.
The first strike has been felt.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Lower tier middle management.
It's not like they were thisimportant individual.
It was first tier above anindividual contributor
management and on the back endof the worst part of the product
to be working on.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
They thought they were, though they thought
because I remember like I didn'ttruly understand management at
that time and like this personthought they were an executive,
like in how they acted, how theyoperated, how they carried
themselves, like they expectedto be treated like an executive.
This person was a freakingdeveloper manager Like, bro, no
one cares about you, you donothing for this company.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Oh yeah, I'll give a positive, that's a negative.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
I'll give a positive because in my past and we talked
about this numerous times, wedon't have to go deep into it
Every time I've stepped outsideof my role, I've gotten promoted
and moved into a differentdepartment, so that's really
benefited me.
When I was a developer, ourproduct was so technically
complicated None of the salesengineers at the company could
demo it.
I started doing demos, notknowing that I was like helping
(33:57):
the sales cycle, and then one ofmy mentors, jj, came in and
said hey, you should do this fora job.
They'll pay you more.
I was like, oh, really Cool, Ienjoy this a lot more.
Anyway, yeah, went to salesbecause of that Like started
just going above and beyond insales.
I was speaking at conferences, Iwas coming up with
presentations.
I was doing a lot more thanjust the sales engineering thing
(34:19):
.
And my my mentor at the time,alex not Restrepo, another Alex
said hey, you should domarketing, you're really good at
this.
And then I left and didmarketing.
So you absolutely can.
But I will say like in both ofthose cases I was doing my job
well, like I would say meetsexpectation on my current job
and then was able to provemyself for other job as someone
(34:43):
who could really bring value andchange if we bring them into
this organization.
But I had to leave my previousjob in both of these cases,
which is why, you know, I'mhaving that conversation with my
teammate today, like, hey, Isee what you're doing, like I
owe you what's been owed to me,like there's potential for your
growth in the future if youfollow this path.
That's a real positive that itcan occur.
Or you can have what happenedto Clark happen to you.
(35:06):
So you know it's.
It can go one of two ways.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yep, yeah, I, I a hundred percent agree, and I
think when you have goodmanagement, or at least good
people around you, to your point, like those things can lead you
into things you're moreinterested in and your natural
talents might be able to shinemore, which is why you should
explore those things.
Yep, and I think you know, inmy case I did a planned exit on
the team.
I found a different team, but Istayed in the company and the
(35:30):
second I went to that team.
Like I was a little gun shy,I'm not going to lie.
I'm like proposing new thingsbecause I was like well, is this
just the way every manager isgoing to be?
But as a new manager, like Ishowed him.
I showed the individual onething and I was like, hey, check
this out, like learning andchallenging themselves, and he
was like blown away.
He's like I need like an hourwith you to like go through this
(35:50):
, because this is really, reallycool and this is going to help
me be a better manager.
And I'm like that's whathappens when you get underneath
a good manager.
They encourage those things andI remember there were times
where I like started doingsomething, is like I'm trying to
think about how this would beuseful, and I actually think I
could use your help with thesethings instead.
And so, like he did his job, hewent back and he said how do I
find more challenging work thatI need help with, that?
(36:12):
I can put this talented personon and put the efforts towards
that.
And so he redirected thatenergy to something valuable.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
You know what's wild about this whole conversation is
like when I, when I read thetopic and thought we should, we
should talk about this in thisepisode, I was thinking about
how you and I could talk aboutbeing this kind of a player and
how there's positives andnegatives for it.
But what we have talked aboutmore than anything else is how
management handles a players,and really the moral of the
(36:40):
story here is don't be an aplayer under a bad manager,
right Like when you interviewfor a job or when you get moved
into a new department.
If you smell that your manageris an asshat, then this is not
the kind of role where you wantto be that sort of expert
outgoing.
Let's go help these otherpeople, Cause you're going to
(37:01):
find yourself stuck and probablyburning yourself out really
quickly.
But if you're in a manager thathas good ability to navigate
both upwards and downwards, themanagement structure that can
help you find new opportunities,it's interested in, invested in
growing you.
This is the perfect opportunityto go that extra mile, prove
yourself and move upwards in thecompany.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah, that's such an important insight.
It's like maybe that's what itall comes back to.
You know, as we're kind oftalking about this, it's like it
does depend on your management.
I don't think there's ever ascenario where a B manager or a
C manager is going to encourageand support you in this ever.
Nope.
I don't think there's ever beena turnaround comeback story
(37:43):
where it's like B manager hiresa player, a player does all this
work, b manager grows into an Amanager.
I don't think that has everhappened in the history of
corporate time.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Nope, the only way it's going to work for you is if
you have a B or C manager.
If you start courting an Amanager in a different
department, like I'm going tohelp you, but you're going to
help me too.
Like and set those expectations.
Like I'm really interested inyour team.
Like love to help you out,interested, you know, if you
have any positions in the future, I would love to come work for
you.
Like set that out early,because you might find yourself
(38:14):
in a situation where you'rebeing punished for helping them
with no exit beyond leave thecompany.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yep, absolutely.
I have two last thoughts.
Lay them on me.
One is once you get and I don'tknow if you feel this way,
maybe not so much in a startupculture, but once you're well,
no, maybe more, I don't knowTell me what you think.
So in enterprise, like whenyou're part of a big
organization, you need to belooked at.
When you're in the managementranks and you're trying to grow
(38:41):
as a collaborative andsupportive partner to all those
groups, regardless of what yourboss thinks.
When it comes to promotioncycles, the other bosses are
going to make decisions on whogets promoted to the next level
and they're all going to have toagree on it, and so when they
do that calibration, they decideon promotions and everything.
You want them to be supportive,as well as your current boss in
(39:05):
your promotion.
So your current boss will bringit up and if no one else knows
about you, it's going to bereally hard to get promoted.
But if everyone else is likeBruce is that guy.
My whole entire team loves him,they talk about him, they're so
thankful he helps out with allthis stuff, that's super
important once you get to acertain rank but I said
something key there it's yourcurrent manager has to propose
(39:26):
it.
You have to be on a goodstanding with your current
manager in order for that tomatter.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Completely agree.
I absolutely agree, yeah, yeah,I mean, if this gets even
harder, if you have that B or Cmanager, because it's very hard
to please them and they're notgoing to fight for you because
all they care about isthemselves and keeping their
little patch of land that theythink gives them their power.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah, if Bruce was a BRC manager, he comes into these
calibration meetings like Brucewho you got for promotion this
year.
You're like no one.
No, they all suck Working onthe team.
No one deserves me.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
But I heard Clark was training people doing all this
activity.
Yeah, but he's not doing hisjob, Doesn't deserve it.
You need to tell him.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, I'm really the only reason this team is staying
afloat and that we'recontributing back to the company
, but I'm going to get my teamthere this year.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
You're making my jaw clench up again, just clenching,
it's happening Involuntaryresponse.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yes.
Last thing when you're an Aplayer and I think this is my
most important note in thegrowth that I've had in my
career In the beginning you kindof say yes to everything.
It's kind of good to do thatbecause you figure out a lot of
things, you get to learn moreparts of the business.
It's good to do that.
But at some point you have tosay yes to the right things and
(40:48):
you end up saying no to morethan the right things.
Right, and I think that's animportant like growth
perspective.
It's in the beginning, you'rejust trying to get your name out
there.
Once everybody knows who you areand they see you as that player
, it's no longer about helpingeverybody if you want to get
promoted.
It's about helping the rightpeople and doing the right
things, which ends up beingsaying no to more and more.
(41:09):
I think as I've grown in mycareer, like in the beginning, I
was like yes to everything.
I was helping every team, doingextra hours, whatever it took,
just to get my name out there.
But once I was well known, itwas about.
Now I need to say no to thesegroups because they're not going
to influence my career.
This stuff is not thatimportant to the company,
because I understand that, andthen this is what I need to be
doing.
So I ended up saying no to morethan I say yes to now.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
There is a prioritization practice that has
to occur, and this is where itrequires a little bit of I don't
know like keen, decisivedissection of the politics of
your organization.
Because if you go help the teamthat has Clark's manager or
(41:50):
Clark's past manager on it, letme tell you what's going to
happen.
You just help the team that'sgoing to appreciate you, but
that manager is never going tosing your praises because they
don't like you, they don't likeanyone but themselves.
Or you could help a team thathas a manager that's like hey,
I'm all about growing people,I'm all about the company, I'm
all about you.
Know how do we make this placebetter?
(42:11):
Clark's coming here, he'shelping out.
I just have to give him a shoutout when it comes to your
calibration time, Like, yeah,Clark's manager saying we should
give them more.
Other managers says, yeah, theycome and help my team all the
time.
Definitely worth it.
So you do have to pay attentionto the politics and you do have
to read the temperature of thebusiness at the management level
(42:32):
, which is going to be weirdbecause you're always so focused
on your peers and the othercontributors at your level that
you're never really looking up.
But I will say, like if youwant to play this game the right
way, you need to look up andmaybe even like one or two
layers up who's looking at you.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Well said, and I think this is the career
maturity.
It's like in the beginning,once you I don't even know if
it's career, organizational liketime spent at the company.
That's why you say yes toeverything in the beginning, so
you can learn who actually isgood here, who's actually
working on important stuff, whodoes leadership look at, and
like all that is part ofunderstanding the corporation.
What's important?
(43:13):
I should have started with thiswhat's important to the
business?
And, like you don't learn thatstuff until you start saying yes
to things outside of your lane.
And then, once you know thatstuff, you know where to put
that energy.
You're like, okay, this isgoing to matter, this isn't.
And that's when you have to, toyour point, be really strict on
what you prioritize and I thinkthat's you know.
I don't know how many yearsthat is.
Some people can probably do itfaster than others, but you can
probably start getting a feelfor that within a year.
It's like, okay, I kind ofunderstand how this business
(43:35):
works.
I understand who's good, who'sA players, who's B players.
I'm going to start saying no toeverybody I was helping out
prior because their stuffdoesn't really matter the stuff
that does.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Completely agree.
I think that does.
I think that's it.
I think we did it, which isgood because I've got great news
, clark, oh no, I got great news.
Oh no, guess what is it near?
As a corporate.
We sent out a challenge afterthe last episode.
We said, hey, you got anyembarrassing stories that can
top what we've got?
And then we said, if you gotany embarrassing stories that
can top what we've got, and thenwe said, if you want to do it,
you go on the discord, you jointhe discord, you go to our link
(44:15):
tree, join.
Whatever you do, you do, you doyou and you go to the is a
mirror as a corporate channel.
Forward slash confess andanonymous confessions will be
shared with us that we can readlive on the pod.
And we've got two bangers youready?
Speaker 2 (44:33):
I have not read any of these because I'm so behind
in the discord I'm gonna getcaught up, I promise no don't
worry, I got you I got youanonymous confession.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
A colleague noticed that our boss is on a team's
call while in the bathroom stall.
Some people like to livedangerously.
That's a good one, oh man.
I cannot tell you the number oftimes when I was in sales I
heard toilets flush on the phone.
No, it's more than 10.
It's more than 10.
No, 10?
(45:04):
, yeah, yeah.
And then when I go toconferences, when I go to work
conferences this happens today,because I still work a lot of
conferences I'll go in thebathroom and they'll just be
like Sales Bro on the phone,dropping a dooski, making all
kinds of noise and it's like oh,yeah, yeah, we got to close
this business Tuesday.
If it's not Tuesday, we're notmaking the deal.
(45:24):
Oh, geez, sorry, I just rippeda big one.
I just ripped a big and I justripped a big and hopefully the
deal closes.
That like I'm not kidding man,it's bad, do not do this.
I think so much less.
Like I get it.
Nature calls, as someone wholives with IBS, like I have
become very good at okay, themeeting's wrapped up.
I'm gonna run to the bathroom.
(45:45):
I'm gonna do what I need to do.
I'm gonna get back to my, myregular day, but like plan this
stuff out.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Bake those five minute breaks into your day.
Do not take the call from thetoilet, please, please.
You know this had me thinking.
Is it because of what you saidtoilets flushing noises like?
Is it just because you heardsomething?
Is it because a camera turnedon just like a blip and then
turned off?
Or is it because you are in thesame bathroom with your boss
(46:18):
and you know they're on thatcall while you're on that call
and you're like, oh man, we'reboth in here together, but
they're in the stall and I'm not.
I know they're in here.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
I mean it can happen either way.
I mean in this case case, theboss is on the team's call while
in the bathroom stall.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
So like it has to be, has to be they stepped away,
but the boss is still on thecall, like yeah or do they just
own it like the sales bro, andthen they turn on the camera and
be like all right guys, let'sget this business done In the
toilet.
Hey, whatever it takes,whatever it takes, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
You know, as I pinch off this clencher, I just want
to make sure you guys know thatI love you.
I care about your business morethan anything in the world.
That's why I'm taking this callright now.
I'm going to give you a no wipe.
All right, like I'm goingstraight to the sink wash my
hands.
Get back to my desk on this oneIf it gets the deal across the
line for end of day businesstoday.
You know what I'm saying, bro.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
I'm a flush this thing, and then we're going to
hash it out.
Hey, great work guys.
Great collaboration man.
I wish they had a bidet on thisso I don't have to wipe 30
times.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
Let's get this business going.
So, so inappropriate, grosslyinappropriate.
We.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
So inappropriate, grossly inappropriate.
We have another one.
Oh, I love that.
Our second one.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
President at the startup I worked at used to
bring her tiny white dog intoour fairly small office.
Besides the fact that theMuslim guy on our team was
terrified of dogs, the dogregularly took a dump on the
floor.
Reporting this to her was not acomfortable conversation.
I'm dying.
I'm dying.
If you have anyone on your team, it doesn't matter their
(47:52):
religious beliefs and they'reafraid of dogs, that's a legit
thing to be afraid of.
My dogs have been attacked bydogs.
I know people who've beenattacked by dogs.
Dog fear is real.
I had this sidebar Sidebar.
Why are people so afraid ofspiders when dogs do so much
more damage to people thanspiders ever have?
(48:12):
I don't understand.
Like I, I actually enable thespiders in my house.
If I see you in a corner, I'llbe like oh good, little spider,
let me help you up.
I'll like lift them up into thecorner.
Like build your web, keep themosquitoes free.
I see a dog running in thestreet.
I'm like okay, am I going tohave to defend my dogs from this
rabbit beast that might chompinto their brain meat Like just
(48:35):
a small sidebar, but anyway,clark.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
I have no problems with spiders, but dogs, like as
it gets into it's a beast,they're beasts.
This is a wild animal that surewe we've tamed but at any point
could snap.
You know that that thing to go,absolutely animal like they are
, could flip in their brain atany moment and start attacking
(49:01):
for whatever reason so I 100agree.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
12 pound malty poo has bit into humans and larger
dogs because he's an idiot likeyou cannot explain.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
They're beasts, they're beasts we shouldn't have
tamed them.
That's really what you'resaying.
I mean it's.
Some dogs are incredible.
I'm a big.
I'm a big animal person, but Ido believe, like if crap goes
down, I will take it out, I willdo the needful, and it
separates in my mind of lovableman's best friend to.
(49:34):
This is a wild beast and I'mprotecting my family.
They have.
Speaker 1 (49:39):
They have just rows of the sharpest teeth.
You know like 100 percent to tothe confession of this.
Like I have been in an officewhere someone brought in their
dogs before.
Like I in my first tech job itwas an internship I worked at a
company and they had these twobulldogs which hung out in the
office sweetest things.
(49:59):
They literally would just sleep, like at your feet.
They would find a pair of feetin the office and they go lay on
them and sleep on them and theywere really cute and they were
fun, loved having them around.
It was great for the culture.
I don't know if they askedeveryone in that office if it
was okay to have dogs there.
You know, like I just joinedand the dogs is there and I like
dogs, I was excited to see it.
But it's very inconsiderate notto check with everyone who the
(50:21):
dog is going to be seeing, ifthey have a phobia.
And also dogs smell a fearresponse in human beings.
Like if the human is afraid,the dog becomes afraid and that
can cause problems too.
Just, absolutely I don't thinkit's a bad idea but it's
something that you have to bevigilant about.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Like 100 this could go wrong so many ways because,
like, also there's so manydifferent things that could
happen in office.
Like you guys could get excitedand be high-fiving.
Each other dog might be likewhat the heck is happening, like
I'm about to freak out and likedogs can change their behavior
really quick depending on thescenario.
Like you, you can't predictthat it's going to be exactly
like every scenario you've beenin, because we're people.
(51:00):
Like things are going to happendifferent situations the dog
has never experienced.
Like it's not fair to the dog,it's not fair to the office
because it's not just in general.
It's not good office behavior.
Would I, if I had my own office, bring a dog in?
Absolutely, but I would checkwith everybody that that's cool
and I'd make sure they'recontained in like an actual
office rooms, not just roamingrandomly with everybody?
(51:20):
That's dangerous.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
I mean, in this case, president of the startup.
You know, like worst casescenario is that the individual
who was terrified of dogs getsbit.
They go to the you know theanimal control, say, hey, this,
there is a dog that bit me.
The president has to put thisdog down and continue to employ
this person who has effectivelyhad their dog killed.
(51:44):
Like this is a zero winscenario for anybody because you
can't fire them.
Oh, I'm gonna fire you becausemy dog bit you, drew blood and
then you had it put down likejust don't just stay away.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
This, the funniest part to me about this, is it's
not like it took a dump on thefloor and then you're like hey
boss, uh dog, took a dump ski onthe in the middle of the hall.
Can you, you like, get that?
It's regularly took a dump onthe floor Like who cleaned that
up?
Is that a?
roast there for a second.
You walk into the boss or thepresident.
(52:18):
He's like hey, I'm on a call,be there in 30 minutes, just
gotta sit there, like well yourdog's feculents are literally
steaming up the break room.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
It's a health hazard.
Maybe you should take care ofthis.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I'm trying to wrap up forthat.
These are incredible.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
These are incredible.
Please don't stop.
I know it's the Is it Me or Isit?
Corporate channel, but I'm justgoing to say let's keep the
embarrassing story train going.
If you have them, join ourDiscord.
If you're already in thediscord, you know what to do.
Go in there.
Forward slash.
Confess, I love these.
I think they are great.
Please I mean I love it beforewe drop.
This is the longest podcastever, but we have to do this.
Oh boy, there is a meme.
(53:00):
And what do you mean?
Oh no, clark, this is going tobe the first time we do this.
This is going to be a bi-hostelmeme, and what I mean by that
is you're going to explain itand then I'm going to evaluate
if you did it justice.
And then I'm going to explainit Because, as someone who grew
up with a Nintendo, I feel likeyou can do this, but if you
(53:22):
can't, I'm going to step in.
So the evaluation has begun.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Is this the one bourgeoisie correspondent
actually wrapped up with?
Okay, there, the evaluation hasbegun.
Is this the one bourgeoisiecorrespondent Alex?
Speaker 1 (53:31):
Reshapo posted.
Okay, there was a lot, I toldyou.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
I haven't gotten caught up, so I just went to
that channel.
I was way up here and I had toscroll all the way down to get
to this.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
My wife's on the channel now, so you can thank
her for that.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Oh boy, and it's Read the Succession podcast.
Okay, okay, interesting.
I'm trying to get new contexthere, okay, so just a quick
briefing.
What happens in this segment iswe explain GIFs and memes with
our mouth parts and you can'tsee them unless you're in the
Discord.
So if you actually want to seewhat we're talking about, you
got to get in the Discord Quickplug.
(54:02):
This one is a classic oldschool Mario gaming scene and on
the left is Mario.
It says Clark's employee, onthe right is Toad.
It says their current role andI don't know what else to take
(54:23):
on this.
I mean, what?
Speaker 1 (54:24):
am I missing?
Hold on hold on.
Speaker 2 (54:26):
It's been a long day.
It might hit me, don't say ityet.
Don't say it yet.
Don't say yeah, I've let itcook, I'm letting it cook.
I got nothing.
Speaker 1 (54:42):
Oh, clark, clark, okay, you are.
I do often forget becauseyou're so much wiser than me, I
forget that you're also like 20years younger than me.
Have you played this game?
I have, okay.
Have you beaten Bowser at allin this game?
No, okay, okay.
(55:03):
So there's where the disconnecthappened.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
Okay, I never made it that far because I was too
young at this point to actuallyunderstand what I was doing in
the game.
So I played the pre-levels andjust died and then quit.
Yeah, it's a hard game.
Speaker 1 (55:14):
I never beat Bowser.
It's a hard game.
I mean they're only at World1-4.
It only gets harder from there.
So, clark, when you beat Bowser, at the end of each world
little Mario walks up to Toadand Toad's like Mario, your
princess is in another castleand like that's the bit right,
Like your princess is in anothercastle.
(55:35):
So you have to go to anotherworld and beat Bowser because
Bowser's moving Peach aroundlike she's some weird investment
in a foreign company.
So what the meme is suggestinghere is Clark's employee is
Mario RE, the Succession podcast.
Their job is in anotherdepartment.
It's a meta meme.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
So good, good it's, good, it's so good, it's really
good yeah, this is thedisconnect.
I definitely played this, butI've never gotten to Bowser.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
I'm sorry.
You know in your defense notjust because you're young this
game is one of the hardest games, Like old school Nintendo games
, they just made your fingersbleed, and this one's a hard one
, I think.
In order to beat Bowser youbasically have to jump over his
flame, get the axe, take it tothe bridge Like it's not easy,
(56:29):
and you have limited lives.
This is before the advent ofthe Konami code and getting
extra lives.
So you know I sympathize withyou and understand this does
mean that when we finally dostart streaming games, I'm going
to force you to play throughthis.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
This has no help Whatsoever, I agree.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
It's Pepsi man, it's Mario, that's it.
That's it, that's all Only livestreams.
Speaker 2 (56:53):
Only two options, guys.
Choose which one.
Take your pick Well we've run10 out of 10.
This might.
Speaker 1 (57:04):
This might be one of the most best meta memes we've
ever had.
I 100% agree, layers.
Love it.
I 100% agree.
Layers Love it.
Good job, alex.
We're going to have you backsoon to discuss more pod topics
that we've neglected to get toListen.
Y'all, it's been a long one, soall I'm going to tell you to do
is get your butt in our Discord.
(57:24):
If you're not, and if you're inour Discord, just say what up.
We love the community.
We love the participation.
We love the memes, thesemirrors, the corporates, the
embarrassing stories.
Join our discord by clicking onthe show notes, click the link
tree.
Join.
If you want to buy stuff, youcan buy stuff on that link tree.
If you want to send us money,you can send us money.
But today it's all about thediscord, because this topic came
(57:45):
from the discord, the storiescame from the discord and the
meme came for discord.
So shout out discord.
We love our community.
If you're not in there, get inthere.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
So good Like, share, subscribe.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:00):
Ring the bell.
Do it all.
Ring the bell, do it all, doall the things.
Share it with your friends.
Share everything you do withyour friends.
If you make a bowel movement,share that with your friends too
.
It's all important.
This is how you close deals.
Pics or it didn't happen?
No, no.
The one thing we will nottolerate in the discord is pics
(58:20):
of the sales bros, bowelmovements, as he's closing the
deal.
We will not.
We have a moderation team.
That's a write out.
Speaker 2 (58:28):
It's incredible.
I get a good corporatism.
Dandes, you ready?
Oh perfect, hit me, all right.
And then you close it out.
You got this, I'm ready, I'mready for it, all right, all
right, folks, keep on evaluatingyour organizational maturity.
Peace out.
Speaker 1 (58:43):
I just threw up, I thought I was ready to end it, I
was ready to end it, I wasready to end it.
Speaker 2 (58:53):
How dare you, how dare you say that into a
microphone Got him.
I'm.
Speaker 1 (58:58):
Bruce and I'm Clark and you're on mute.
Thankfully You'd be vomitingtoo.
We'll see you next week.
No, I've lost the chat.
I went.
I went into the discord now.
Oh, there it is.
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