May 7, 2025 • 26 mins
We revisit our CACC framework for measuring workplace happiness, breaking down how Culture, Autonomy, Challenge, and Compensation create a personalized score to evaluate job satisfaction.
• CACC stands for Culture, Autonomy, Challenge, with Compensation as an offset factor
• Each person weighs these factors differently based on their individual priorities
• Two years after introducing CACC, we've seen our scores improve through role evolution
• Culture becomes more important when you can handpick and develop your own team
• Monthly CACC evaluation helps identify when it's time to consider other opportunities
• Compensation can offset lower scores in other areas if it's exceptional
• Your CACC priorities may shift as you age and your workplace values evolve
• Scoring below a C might indicate it's time to prepare an exit strategy
Join our Discord community to share your own CACC score and connect with like-minded professionals. Click the link in our show notes to participate in the conversation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome back to SportsCenter.
I'm Bruce and I'm Clark and I'mMilt.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It's so good to see you guys here today.
Let's do a little vibe check.
What are you saying, Ashby?
Yeah, so good to see you guyshere today.
Let's do a little vibe check.
What do you guys think?
Hey, vibe check.
Bruce, Hit me.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I got a little vibe check right here.
I said my vibes are vibing.
How about you, Clark?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm vibing all over the place.
It's Friday afternoon, I'mgetting freaky.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
You know what's real freaky bonus episode.
That's right.
Get excited.
Midweek bonus pod.
This keeps us on track for ourepisode a week since we missed
one.
We're just throwing it in herebecause we got to Thought we
would do a little revisit ofsomething real quick.
Just a quickie in your ears,Clark.
What are we talking about today?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
We are talking about one of the most important things
in life, which is Cack, cack,say that again.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Cack Ouch life, which is cack, cack, say that say
that again cack ouch, that hurts, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We, uh, we were going back and forth on do we call it
cacko cacaw?
We were like how do we add insome of the other factors of
your workplace happinesshappiness score?
And I think we decided we'renot changing it yet but this
episode.
Yeah, we got to keep it pure,but we thought let's do a quick
(01:35):
episode.
It's been a while since wetalked about cack.
You're wearing your merch rightnow.
It doesn't say cack on ahashtag cack, but one day we'll
make those shirts.
I'm excited for it.
We thought we'd bring anepisode to you guys refreshing
you on what is CAC and what isour current state of CAC in 2025
.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I want to make a shirt that just says ask me
about.
Ask me about my hashtag CAC.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
That's so good, Just all caps.
I'm imagining like someJapanese style writing like
across, like it's got to have agood shadow on it and colors
yeah, a big shadow, and then,just like right in the middle,
hashtag CAC.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Ask me about my hashtag CAC.
What is CAC Clark?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I love to explain CAC .
I just love talking about CAC.
I love hearing about CAC Sayingthe word CAC it's just, it's so
good, you know, I just love tospew it.
So what is CAC?
C-a-c-c.
So this is our way.
We've created this.
This is something that camefrom our brains Pre-AI to
measure our workplace happiness.
(02:39):
Wasn't this pre-AI?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
We didn't come up with this with AI, modify it
with that.
We would never use AI forsomething like this.
Why did you say that I totallywould.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
That's the reason.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
That hurts me.
Yes, this is pre-AI.
One of the hosts on this showstill lives like it's pre-AI.
But continue, Clark.
What does CAC stand for?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
CAC stands for Culture, autonomy Challenge,
compensation and compensation isan offset.
It is an offset.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
We always mention that.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
It's important.
We made sure to make an acronymthat's so easy and appropriate
to say in every possible spaceever, which is CAC, and we
actually have done a ton ofexperiments with this in the
past and it's become a prettywell-known term.
We actually have most people inour Discord bring it up from
time to time.
We've had people come on thepodcast and say, if I had to
evaluate my CAC right now, andwe basically have found that
(03:34):
it's a super useful tool for usto communicate how happy are we
at our current workplace.
So we've done experiments inthe past where we have, hour by
hour for a series of two weeks,experiments in the past where we
have, hour by hour for a seriesof two weeks, rated our workday
to say what is our score from aone to 10 in culture, autonomy,
challenge and compensation, andwe actually graded ourselves on
that curve to say how happy arewe in our current role?
(03:57):
Yeah, go, you can go back andlisten to that.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
That was what two years ago at this point Two
years ago, that was like yearone of me at my startup.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So two years ago, your scorewas pretty good.
At the time, mine was abysmal,and I'm still at the same place.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Really that's sad, clark, don't say such things.
One thing I love about CAC isbefore we get into like where
we're at today with it, when youlook at most business books
analysts, consultants they'realways coming up with acronyms
like CAC to measure theproductivity of a business, to
(04:34):
measure the efficiency of theprofitability of the technology,
of whatever Like.
It's always something about thebusiness.
It is how is business creatingmore money for business?
And the thing I love about CACit's tied back to why we did
this podcast in the first placeis while, yes, it's a corporate
(04:55):
strategy, business orientedpodcast, it's focused on people
and CAC is a personal score foryou to evaluate your
satisfaction with your place inyour company.
And I don't think that existswith any other consulting firm,
any other analyst business modelout there.
It's always so focused on thewhole.
Cac is focused on the individualbecause we recognize you are a
(05:18):
human being, you matter and youshould have a say in your
happiness at your workplace.
So when you use these fourfactors I do want to mention,
like the reason we saycompensation is an offset, it's
because that can help turn up abad CAC right, like if my
culture, autonomy and challengeare in the low.
You know we rank it one to 10.
So if it's a low, like threeacross the board, but your
(05:41):
compensation is a solid 10, like, it might not be so bad for you
, right?
Because you're getting paid waymore than you need, you're
happy with your pay and you'rewilling to suffer through a
worse score because it means youget a better quality of life
outside of work.
And I love this measurementsystem because I think it works.
It is interesting how we've hadsome folks talk about, in both
the Discord and on the show,ways that we can change this,
(06:04):
bring in other letters, bring inother meanings, but I still
stand by.
This is a very functionalmethod for measuring happiness
and it still works for me.
So let's talk about our, let'stalk about our cac scores today.
Why, why is yours still low?
Yeah, yeah, is it low acrossthe border?
Has it changed?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
so maybe we should set our, our weighted scores
together.
You know what?
What is your ranking for eachone of those factors?
So I think this is somethingthat's unique to this, too.
It's everybody has a differentweighting.
Some people love culture.
They're like culture for me isthe top.
That's all I care about is agreat culture.
I want to love my coworkers.
I want to go out to lunch withthem.
(06:40):
I want to hang out with themafter work, like culture is the
top item.
Some people say I want autonomy,I want to have the freedom to
make my own decisions, decidewhat I do every day, like that's
more important than anything.
Some people value challenge.
I actually still think this isprobably my top, but I think it
is shifting a little bit, and Ilove to take on challenging work
where I'm learning.
(07:01):
I'm around people that aresmarter than me and I'm
constantly kind of advancingmyself and working with people
who are frankly, reallyimpressive, and that is kind of
how you decide hey, where do Istand?
Some people are like equal.
They're like hey, I like abalance of all those things.
And then some people are likeyou know what, for me,
everything can be in the dumpand if the compensation is high
(07:22):
enough.
I don't care how bad it is foracross the board culture
couldn't be in the dumps.
Autonomy in the dumps,challenge in the dumps.
But if I'm making buku buckswho cares, like some people,
that's all they care about andthat's why, to your point, this
score can't just be generalized.
It's unique to every singleperson.
So I think challenge is stillup there for me.
What's interesting is I thinkculture might be rising up a
(07:46):
little bit.
No, I've been thinking about it,I know, can you believe it?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I don't.
I think it's been going up alittle bit it's been.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
It's been improving.
I'll go to, I'll go into it ina minute, but I want to hear
yours.
Has yours changed?
Speaker 1 (07:58):
No, I don't think so.
My, my score has changed, butthe things I value are still
like autonomy over everything.
I love being able to do my ownthing, carve my own path, set my
own destiny and be a leaderwhen I can.
So that's still my number one.
Culture is my number two, andthen challenge is number three,
and obviously compensation isvery important as well.
(08:19):
I'm still very much in the samespot that I was Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
All those years ago, even from two years ago.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, I think mine is is shifting a little bit, maybe
just because I'm what's theright word Getting older Maybe
settling, getting older,compensating say, however you'd
like to put it, but I think Imean your bones do look like
they're melting.
Do they?
You'd like to put it, but Ithink your bones do look like
(08:47):
they're melting, do they?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I am sweating.
Your bones are melting in realtime.
I see it happening.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
It's quite horrendous I mean, I did cut out milk, so
my calcium probably is lower.
I only drink almond milk.
Now, you didn't know you couldmilk a nut, did you?
Speaker 1 (08:59):
uh, cats have nipples .
Can you milk them?
That's a great point.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
That's a great point, but, yeah, I think the reason
so, for me, challenge is the top.
I've talked about that a lot.
Like I want that in myworkplace and that's what I
value is just that constantlearning.
I think because of my personalsituation, I've decided to stay
(09:26):
where I'm at, even though thescore isn't the best, because
the compensation offset doesreally help that.
I think.
Actually, what I've been doingwith my schedule more and more
at work, since I'm not gettingchallenge, I kind of lean into
well, I love my team, I'm justgoing to spend more time with
them, helping them work throughproblems, and that's why I think
culture is now going up,because I'm like, dang, I love
my team.
Like my team is so good, I lovejust sitting around them and
asking questions, like aboutwhat they're working on, what
(09:47):
kind of challenges there are,brainstorming with them, and so
I'm kind of using that as anoffset because I'm not getting
the challenge.
I'm like, well, I'm just goingto lean in with my great team
and we're just going to try tohave a good time and do
productive things together.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
It's a cacomorphosis.
Say it with me now.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Cacomorphosis.
Cacomorphosis A cac evolution Acac evolution.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Your acceptance of your situation has caused you to
reevaluate the cac score andyou realize that you could
actually be satisfied withdifferent metrics on different
weights.
I mean that's super interesting.
It's super interesting.
Yeah, I kind of love that thisis happening to you because I'm
(10:31):
very much still in the same boatand I think my challenges today
are the same challenges I hadtwo years ago when we started
talking about this.
I do feel, personally, my scoreis higher.
I do feel like I have moreautonomy now I do have, I would
feel personally, my score ishigher.
I do feel like I have moreautonomy now I do have, I would
say, challenge.
For me, challenge is not, it'sjust not.
(10:52):
I don't care about it, I don'tvalue it and if I do have a
challenging thing, I'llpersevere and get through it.
But I I don't feel like I havethose enough that it is
impacting my, my happiness.
So I would say challenge isright where it needs to be.
Culture has actually improvedsignificantly for me as a.
I think the culture of my team,my business unit, just
tremendously good and I'm eventhough I don't value culture as
(11:16):
highly as I do autonomy I amvery happy that I have, like
it's maxed out right, like it'sa maxed out stat on that sheet.
So, even though it's not themost important thing, like it is
nice to have that pumping up,uh, where there might be things
that are deficient that's'sgreat.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
I mean, it sounds like your situation like if I
had to generalize it be yoursituation is improving is what
it sounds like Absolutely is,and I mean you can.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
You can also see the difference in I think you know
I've been at this companyliterally over three years now
startup I was employee numberfour.
Now there's 240 employees.
So obviously things are eithergoing to get better as you add
more people or they're going toget worse.
Unfortunately, in my case, theydid get better.
So having more peopledefinitely helps, having shared
(12:04):
responsibility helps, but theculture and maybe this is going
to change the way I think aboutculture right, Like the culture
of the people we brought on.
I interview a lot of people andI do grade them on their culture
, like are you going to workhere?
And that's a big part of likethe feedback I give to the
hiring managers when we hirepeople.
I was like I think thisperson's a great cultural fit
(12:24):
and it matters because you knowwhen they come in they can
either add or subtract from yourpersonal CAC based on how their
culture is.
And in my business unit, withmy team and with the larger unit
as a whole, I feel like we havereally, really good culture and
we keep adding people with goodculture, so it's only helped in
that regard.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's the cool thing.
I think, actually, both you andI have gone through I've hired
my whole team and so, likethat's the coolest thing, it's
like I've picked, I'vehandpicked the people that are
on my team and I've gotten to.
I've had to lay some people offas well that were not a good
fit, but it's allowed me to formthis team that like we are all
(13:06):
aligned and we are workingreally well together and I
genuinely like spending timewith them and I think you're
kind of in the same boat, it'slike, if you have a small
company and you can keep onbringing on good people, you're
going to keep on hiring peoplethat contribute to that good
culture, and it sounds like youguys have done that, which a lot
of companies don't, which isgreat.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
It's.
It's funny too, cause in mycase, as a manager of my team,
because I value autonomy so much, I value their autonomy as well
.
So I always like to kind of letthem run wild and do their own
thing and only really step inwhen leadership or someone else
says hey, I need this thing outof this individual.
(13:45):
Then it's my time to come inand say, all right, but like for
the most part, like I know howmuch I care about it, so I don't
want to be in any way shape orform dictating, micromanaging to
them what they need to be doing.
It's very much a here's, here'sa project.
Go solve it.
I'll talk to you in a week.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
That's awesome.
Yeah, that's.
That's really cool.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
I should check in with their cacks, in all honesty
, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
It never hurts.
Just to you know, put a coupleof feelers out there in your
one-on-ones.
Be like hey, how are you guysdoing?
Do you like working here?
Um?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I think they all know I have a podcast so they could
listen and judge me back if theywanted to.
All right, it's not a secret.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yeah, yeah, fair enough, do you?
I think for your case too,compensation has increased over
the last two years.
It has.
That always helps, yeah, andlike, not the 3% increase,
that's like just accounting forinflation.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Like, both you and I have gotten raises, which helps
that curve me is I'm invested inthe success of the company,
(14:57):
because if the company issuccessful, I too am successful.
So you know that's it'scompensation, but it's also like
weirdly not a directcompensation, right Like it's a.
It's a little bit of a gamble,it's long-term, but it certainly
motivates me to do myday-to-day work because I want
the company to succeed.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, that's one of the coolest things about working
at a startup and not atenterprise or big corp.
It's because you know you.
You can make or break yourbusiness based on what you do
over a short period of time andyour inputs contribute very
tangibly to the end result.
And in big corp sometimes youdon't see like I'm doing this.
(15:34):
I have.
I have no idea how this affectsyou know my company.
In the long term I'm just doingthis thing right Because the
company is so big.
But as a startup, to your point, it's like you kind of have to
be a little bit intrinsicallymotivated, or compensation is
one of your highest, where it'slike if I do well, if I push
people to do well and work theirhardest, we could all get a
(15:54):
massive payout, which could beincredible for us.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, that's cool.
It's also something where I cansee the change in real time and
maybe this is something that'snot on the CAC score at all, but
I've gone.
I just got back from San Diegolast week working our big event.
I've been going to this event.
I've gone to this event fourtimes now.
I've been going to this event.
I've gone to this event fourtimes now.
I've been in the company threeyears, gone to this event four
times.
This is like the beginning of myfourth year and what's crazy is
(16:18):
like year one, no one knew whowe were, no one knew what we
were doing.
No one knew anything.
Year two, it's like okay, maybe10 of people knew who we were,
knew what we're doing stillsmall.
Year three, maybe 40.
Last week I would say 100 ofthe people I talked to knew who
we are and they had a basicunderstanding of our product and
(16:39):
it was just like filling in thegaps, which that's my work,
right, like that's my job.
My job is to create awarenessabout this company and to like
to know that the work me and myteam and my my business unit
have done to make thissuccessful it's.
It is just super motivating andit also shows like what we're
doing is working.
So yeah, it also helps with theCAC in that way too.
Is you see the businessactually grow and become a real
(17:03):
big boy?
Grow from a little baby to abig boy that's awesome Into a
mighty Oak.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
That's great.
So I mean for both of us.
I feel like our Cac hasimproved.
Then I think when we you'llhave to remind me, I think in
our last ratings that we didyour compensation curve got you
to like a c or a low b, if Iremember right, like it was like
a low b rating, meaning like inthe 80s with the spreadsheet
that we did.
Is that right for sure?
(17:33):
Probably like mid 80s which wetalked about is like a pretty
great score.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
It was I would actually say like if I just did
the quick mental math, I'd be ata low, a high b now for sure.
Wow, that's awesome, do you?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
anticipate in the near future anything drastically
changing with that.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
I mean, what's crazy is the pendulum can swing in
either direction overnight,because that's just the name of
the startup, right, like we makea drastic change to our
leadership.
We make a drastic change to ourbusiness model, our product.
Like, when you're small, youcan take big swings and big
(18:17):
turns.
So, yes, things could gettremendously worse or
tremendously better, but I thinkone of the neat things about my
company specifically is we doact like an enterprise.
We're trying to sell anenterprise, so it does afford us
the ability to move a littleslower and be a little more
corporate in our actions, and Idon't foresee big swings
(18:38):
happening.
I think it's going to continueto either creep up or creep down
, based on how we hire and howwe hold ourselves accountable
for the work we do.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, that's interesting, that's awesome,
that is really cool, so yeah,yeah, we talked about.
Yeah, mine is, mine is still, Ithink, pretty low.
I think when we last did it Iwas a C minus like 71.
I was like right on theborderline.
We talked about that, stillpassing, like still okay, it's
not.
We talked about anything belowa C that's like not passing.
(19:11):
In that regard Probably meansyou need to pull plan E, plan
exit like quick.
And so I was kind of on theborderline of that.
I think for me, because I'vebeen really kind of gearing the
schedule towards leaning in more, with my team and culture going
up a little bit, because I tendto enjoy those activities more
and I do feel like they doprovide value, I think it's a
(19:32):
little better.
I don't think it's, you know,largely better.
I think maybe two, three pointshigher, which means the
situation's improving andcompensation has improved, which
means overall like not aterrible score, not great, you
know, probably still open,looking for other opportunities,
but not terrible, it's doable.
However, I think in the nextand that's the reason why I
(19:53):
asked you the question the nextcouple months for me there's
been an organizational change,rules open that I think I should
fit into.
I think that could drasticallychange my feelings for where I'm
at now and I think that wouldpush it into that D category.
I think it'd still be a high Dbecause of the compensation, the
team aspect and everything likethat, but still not great.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
I think it's pushing me to the edge here he's, on the
edge, the edge of glory.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I'm to the edge.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Here he's on the edge , the edge of glory, teetering.
I'm teetering.
I mean it could go a reallygreat the other way, right,
could, yeah, it could, it could,and I think that's it's so
interesting.
You know, what I love about cacis it is very evaluative,
evaluational, I think you haveit right.
(20:43):
It gives you the ability toevaluate on the fly and I don't
think this is something that youjust do once a year and you're
done.
It's not a quarterly, it's nota yearly review, it's not a
quarterly review.
I think CAC is like a monthlyreview, at least right.
Because if, month after month,your score is is going down, you
need to be thinking about, like, what's this doing to my, my
(21:05):
mental well-being, my emotionalwell-being, my physical
well-being, and like stress andunhappiness does take a toll on
you physically.
Uh, like, you have to thinkabout you and I know the
market's not great right now andmaybe it's never going to be
great again, I don't know.
It just seems like we'reconstantly in the state of like
(21:25):
things getting more expensive,things getting worse.
It's hard to think about likedo I leave my company because
I'm not happier, because my CACisn't where I need it to be?
But when you're doing themonthly evaluation, it allows
you to check in and say, hey, ifI get reached out to you by a
recruiter, maybe I should justtake that conversation.
I'm on a downward.
I'm on a downward slope right.
Like I, things could get better, there were golden times, but
(21:48):
would it hurt for me to have aconversation with another
company that I could find abetter time at.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think in and we talkedabout this a little bit, I think
, even with our corporatecorrespondent, alex Reschrepo
it's like In a lot of situations, for most people you don't want
to just jump because you'rereally frustrated or times are
hard, like you want to ensurethere's something else lined up.
Yes, and to your point, it'slike that's when you know if you
(22:17):
are evaluating.
You're constantly looking atyour CAC and you're like man, I
felt burnt out lately.
I don't generally feel happygoing back to my family, like
sometimes I just don't bringgood vibes to them.
Then you should be open toother opportunities, either you
looking for them, depending onhow dire the situation is, or,
to your point, like if arecruiter is reaching out, you
(22:38):
should take that call Becausethat could drastically change
your situation, especially likeif the economic times are not
great.
Obviously, if the economictimes are great, you can be a
little riskier, but right now,to your point, it's like things
are fluctuating so much youshould probably have something
lined up before you make thejump.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Bounce around like a ping pong ball.
It all depends.
It really does depend on theenvironment truly, uh, internal
environment to the company,external environment to the, the
place you're working in uhplace, I mean country of
residence.
So it's it's interesting.
I I love that we're doing thischeck-in.
I know this is a quickie, Iknow I know we've got a dip here
(23:18):
, but I want to throw it out toour listeners.
If you're in the Discord, getin there.
How's your CAC?
What's your check-in?
Let us know, go to theCorporate Strategy channel in
the Discord.
I want to hear about everyone'sCAC and how they're doing, how
they're feeling about it rightnow.
Do your evaluation.
(23:44):
Then we'll do another check-insecond half of the year and see
how we're doing then, because Ithink by then things will change
for you, clark, and things willchange for me, and it's worth
us checking back in with eachother and saying, hey, cack
better, cack worse.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I agree, yeah, I think it's.
It's a great idea.
It's like maybe we should do apoll or something like that
where we find a way to likegrade.
it's like a, b, c, e, like,depending on whatever our score
is.
And I would encourage to yourpoint.
It's like, first, the first andeasiest thing to do with your,
with your CAC, is say, justprioritize them.
What's top?
Is it culture, is it autonomy,is it challenge, is it
(24:10):
compensation?
And just give it a, one, two,three, four and depending on
that score, you can know, okay,how happy am I in these areas,
in these respects.
And if you just look at it overa week, you can really judge
day by day how was my culturetoday, how was my autonomy today
, how was my challenge today?
Compensation is an offset.
So it's like, even though itwas in the dumps, I made awesome
(24:30):
sales numbers and my salary ormy bonus track is going to be
great.
So that kind of offseteverything.
And I think that's the easiestway to do it, to get your score
everything.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
And I think that's the easiest way to do it, to get
your score.
That's how you can know whereyou stand.
Yeah, just give yourself thatschool grade and uh, d, c, b, a,
f.
If we get any Fs, it's going tobecome a counseling session
where we tell you to leave yourjob.
But uh, do that.
Join our discord.
And the way you do that.
Click on the show, click on theshow notes, go to link tree.
Join the discord.
It's our open community.
You can lurk, you can post, youcan participate.
(24:59):
We love everyone in there.
It's a great way to get intouch with us as well as other
like-minded individuals likeourselves.
Uh, send the show to yourfriends.
Share it widely, share itlargely, share it bigly, bigly.
Share the discord.
The big podcast, the biggest,the biggest.
Uh, we are.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
we are bigly evaluative of this CAC and maybe
we'll do another quickie wherewe talk about CAC and how you
evaluate it for future potentialopportunities.
That's a good one.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
That's a follow up quickie.
I like it All, right, ok, well,we've got our follow up.
We're going to put that on thebooks Schedule, that on the Cal,
Going to make a sort of along-term deep-dip dive into the
topic, double-clicking into it,if you will.
But until then, I'm Bruce andI'm Clark and you're on mute.
(25:54):
We'll see you next week.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Bye.
Welcome back to SportsCenter.
I'm Bruce and I'm Clark and I'mMilt.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
It's so good to see you guys here today.
Let's do a little vibe check.
What are you saying, Ashby?
Yeah, so good to see you guyshere today.
Let's do a little vibe check.
What do you guys think?
Hey, vibe check.
Bruce, Hit me.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I got a little vibe check right here.
I said my vibes are vibing.
How about you, Clark?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I'm vibing all over the place.
It's Friday afternoon, I'mgetting freaky.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
You know what's real freaky bonus episode.
That's right.
Get excited.
Midweek bonus pod.
This keeps us on track for ourepisode a week since we missed
one.
We're just throwing it in herebecause we got to Thought we
would do a little revisit ofsomething real quick.
Just a quickie in your ears,Clark.
What are we talking about today?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
We are talking about one of the most important things
in life, which is Cack, cack,say that again.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Cack Ouch life, which is cack, cack, say that say
that again cack ouch, that hurts, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We, uh, we were going back and forth on do we call it
cacko cacaw?
We were like how do we add insome of the other factors of
your workplace happinesshappiness score?
And I think we decided we'renot changing it yet but this
episode.
Yeah, we got to keep it pure,but we thought let's do a quick
(01:35):
episode.
It's been a while since wetalked about cack.
You're wearing your merch rightnow.
It doesn't say cack on ahashtag cack, but one day we'll
make those shirts.
I'm excited for it.
We thought we'd bring anepisode to you guys refreshing
you on what is CAC and what isour current state of CAC in 2025
.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
I want to make a shirt that just says ask me
about.
Ask me about my hashtag CAC.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
That's so good, Just all caps.
I'm imagining like someJapanese style writing like
across, like it's got to have agood shadow on it and colors
yeah, a big shadow, and then,just like right in the middle,
hashtag CAC.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Ask me about my hashtag CAC.
What is CAC Clark?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I love to explain CAC .
I just love talking about CAC.
I love hearing about CAC Sayingthe word CAC it's just, it's so
good, you know, I just love tospew it.
So what is CAC?
C-a-c-c.
So this is our way.
We've created this.
This is something that camefrom our brains Pre-AI to
measure our workplace happiness.
(02:39):
Wasn't this pre-AI?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
We didn't come up with this with AI, modify it
with that.
We would never use AI forsomething like this.
Why did you say that I totallywould.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
That's the reason.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
That hurts me.
Yes, this is pre-AI.
One of the hosts on this showstill lives like it's pre-AI.
But continue, Clark.
What does CAC stand for?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
CAC stands for Culture, autonomy Challenge,
compensation and compensation isan offset.
It is an offset.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
We always mention that.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
It's important.
We made sure to make an acronymthat's so easy and appropriate
to say in every possible spaceever, which is CAC, and we
actually have done a ton ofexperiments with this in the
past and it's become a prettywell-known term.
We actually have most people inour Discord bring it up from
time to time.
We've had people come on thepodcast and say, if I had to
evaluate my CAC right now, andwe basically have found that
(03:34):
it's a super useful tool for usto communicate how happy are we
at our current workplace.
So we've done experiments inthe past where we have, hour by
hour for a series of two weeks,experiments in the past where we
have, hour by hour for a seriesof two weeks, rated our workday
to say what is our score from aone to 10 in culture, autonomy,
challenge and compensation, andwe actually graded ourselves on
that curve to say how happy arewe in our current role?
(03:57):
Yeah, go, you can go back andlisten to that.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
That was what two years ago at this point Two
years ago, that was like yearone of me at my startup.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So two years ago, your scorewas pretty good.
At the time, mine was abysmal,and I'm still at the same place.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Really that's sad, clark, don't say such things.
One thing I love about CAC isbefore we get into like where
we're at today with it, when youlook at most business books
analysts, consultants they'realways coming up with acronyms
like CAC to measure theproductivity of a business, to
(04:34):
measure the efficiency of theprofitability of the technology,
of whatever Like.
It's always something about thebusiness.
It is how is business creatingmore money for business?
And the thing I love about CACit's tied back to why we did
this podcast in the first placeis while, yes, it's a corporate
(04:55):
strategy, business orientedpodcast, it's focused on people
and CAC is a personal score foryou to evaluate your
satisfaction with your place inyour company.
And I don't think that existswith any other consulting firm,
any other analyst business modelout there.
It's always so focused on thewhole.
Cac is focused on the individualbecause we recognize you are a
(05:18):
human being, you matter and youshould have a say in your
happiness at your workplace.
So when you use these fourfactors I do want to mention,
like the reason we saycompensation is an offset, it's
because that can help turn up abad CAC right, like if my
culture, autonomy and challengeare in the low.
You know we rank it one to 10.
So if it's a low, like threeacross the board, but your
(05:41):
compensation is a solid 10, like, it might not be so bad for you
, right?
Because you're getting paid waymore than you need, you're
happy with your pay and you'rewilling to suffer through a
worse score because it means youget a better quality of life
outside of work.
And I love this measurementsystem because I think it works.
It is interesting how we've hadsome folks talk about, in both
the Discord and on the show,ways that we can change this,
(06:04):
bring in other letters, bring inother meanings, but I still
stand by.
This is a very functionalmethod for measuring happiness
and it still works for me.
So let's talk about our, let'stalk about our cac scores today.
Why, why is yours still low?
Yeah, yeah, is it low acrossthe border?
Has it changed?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
so maybe we should set our, our weighted scores
together.
You know what?
What is your ranking for eachone of those factors?
So I think this is somethingthat's unique to this, too.
It's everybody has a differentweighting.
Some people love culture.
They're like culture for me isthe top.
That's all I care about is agreat culture.
I want to love my coworkers.
I want to go out to lunch withthem.
(06:40):
I want to hang out with themafter work, like culture is the
top item.
Some people say I want autonomy,I want to have the freedom to
make my own decisions, decidewhat I do every day, like that's
more important than anything.
Some people value challenge.
I actually still think this isprobably my top, but I think it
is shifting a little bit, and Ilove to take on challenging work
where I'm learning.
(07:01):
I'm around people that aresmarter than me and I'm
constantly kind of advancingmyself and working with people
who are frankly, reallyimpressive, and that is kind of
how you decide hey, where do Istand?
Some people are like equal.
They're like hey, I like abalance of all those things.
And then some people are likeyou know what, for me,
everything can be in the dumpand if the compensation is high
(07:22):
enough.
I don't care how bad it is foracross the board culture
couldn't be in the dumps.
Autonomy in the dumps,challenge in the dumps.
But if I'm making buku buckswho cares, like some people,
that's all they care about andthat's why, to your point, this
score can't just be generalized.
It's unique to every singleperson.
So I think challenge is stillup there for me.
What's interesting is I thinkculture might be rising up a
(07:46):
little bit.
No, I've been thinking about it,I know, can you believe it?
Speaker 1 (07:50):
I don't.
I think it's been going up alittle bit it's been.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
It's been improving.
I'll go to, I'll go into it ina minute, but I want to hear
yours.
Has yours changed?
Speaker 1 (07:58):
No, I don't think so.
My, my score has changed, butthe things I value are still
like autonomy over everything.
I love being able to do my ownthing, carve my own path, set my
own destiny and be a leaderwhen I can.
So that's still my number one.
Culture is my number two, andthen challenge is number three,
and obviously compensation isvery important as well.
(08:19):
I'm still very much in the samespot that I was Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
All those years ago, even from two years ago.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Yeah, I think mine is is shifting a little bit, maybe
just because I'm what's theright word Getting older Maybe
settling, getting older,compensating say, however you'd
like to put it, but I think Imean your bones do look like
they're melting.
Do they?
You'd like to put it, but Ithink your bones do look like
(08:47):
they're melting, do they?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I am sweating.
Your bones are melting in realtime.
I see it happening.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
It's quite horrendous I mean, I did cut out milk, so
my calcium probably is lower.
I only drink almond milk.
Now, you didn't know you couldmilk a nut, did you?
Speaker 1 (08:59):
uh, cats have nipples .
Can you milk them?
That's a great point.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
That's a great point, but, yeah, I think the reason
so, for me, challenge is the top.
I've talked about that a lot.
Like I want that in myworkplace and that's what I
value is just that constantlearning.
I think because of my personalsituation, I've decided to stay
(09:26):
where I'm at, even though thescore isn't the best, because
the compensation offset doesreally help that.
I think.
Actually, what I've been doingwith my schedule more and more
at work, since I'm not gettingchallenge, I kind of lean into
well, I love my team, I'm justgoing to spend more time with
them, helping them work throughproblems, and that's why I think
culture is now going up,because I'm like, dang, I love
my team.
Like my team is so good, I lovejust sitting around them and
asking questions, like aboutwhat they're working on, what
(09:47):
kind of challenges there are,brainstorming with them, and so
I'm kind of using that as anoffset because I'm not getting
the challenge.
I'm like, well, I'm just goingto lean in with my great team
and we're just going to try tohave a good time and do
productive things together.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
It's a cacomorphosis.
Say it with me now.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Cacomorphosis.
Cacomorphosis A cac evolution Acac evolution.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Your acceptance of your situation has caused you to
reevaluate the cac score andyou realize that you could
actually be satisfied withdifferent metrics on different
weights.
I mean that's super interesting.
It's super interesting.
Yeah, I kind of love that thisis happening to you because I'm
(10:31):
very much still in the same boatand I think my challenges today
are the same challenges I hadtwo years ago when we started
talking about this.
I do feel, personally, my scoreis higher.
I do feel like I have moreautonomy now I do have, I would
feel personally, my score ishigher.
I do feel like I have moreautonomy now I do have, I would
say, challenge.
For me, challenge is not, it'sjust not.
(10:52):
I don't care about it, I don'tvalue it and if I do have a
challenging thing, I'llpersevere and get through it.
But I I don't feel like I havethose enough that it is
impacting my, my happiness.
So I would say challenge isright where it needs to be.
Culture has actually improvedsignificantly for me as a.
I think the culture of my team,my business unit, just
tremendously good and I'm eventhough I don't value culture as
(11:16):
highly as I do autonomy I amvery happy that I have, like
it's maxed out right, like it'sa maxed out stat on that sheet.
So, even though it's not themost important thing, like it is
nice to have that pumping up,uh, where there might be things
that are deficient that's'sgreat.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
I mean, it sounds like your situation like if I
had to generalize it be yoursituation is improving is what
it sounds like Absolutely is,and I mean you can.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
You can also see the difference in I think you know
I've been at this companyliterally over three years now
startup I was employee numberfour.
Now there's 240 employees.
So obviously things are eithergoing to get better as you add
more people or they're going toget worse.
Unfortunately, in my case, theydid get better.
So having more peopledefinitely helps, having shared
(12:04):
responsibility helps, but theculture and maybe this is going
to change the way I think aboutculture right, Like the culture
of the people we brought on.
I interview a lot of people andI do grade them on their culture
, like are you going to workhere?
And that's a big part of likethe feedback I give to the
hiring managers when we hirepeople.
I was like I think thisperson's a great cultural fit
(12:24):
and it matters because you knowwhen they come in they can
either add or subtract from yourpersonal CAC based on how their
culture is.
And in my business unit, withmy team and with the larger unit
as a whole, I feel like we havereally, really good culture and
we keep adding people with goodculture, so it's only helped in
that regard.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's the cool thing.
I think, actually, both you andI have gone through I've hired
my whole team and so, likethat's the coolest thing, it's
like I've picked, I'vehandpicked the people that are
on my team and I've gotten to.
I've had to lay some people offas well that were not a good
fit, but it's allowed me to formthis team that like we are all
(13:06):
aligned and we are workingreally well together and I
genuinely like spending timewith them and I think you're
kind of in the same boat, it'slike, if you have a small
company and you can keep onbringing on good people, you're
going to keep on hiring peoplethat contribute to that good
culture, and it sounds like youguys have done that, which a lot
of companies don't, which isgreat.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
It's.
It's funny too, cause in mycase, as a manager of my team,
because I value autonomy so much, I value their autonomy as well
.
So I always like to kind of letthem run wild and do their own
thing and only really step inwhen leadership or someone else
says hey, I need this thing outof this individual.
(13:45):
Then it's my time to come inand say, all right, but like for
the most part, like I know howmuch I care about it, so I don't
want to be in any way shape orform dictating, micromanaging to
them what they need to be doing.
It's very much a here's, here'sa project.
Go solve it.
I'll talk to you in a week.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
That's awesome.
Yeah, that's.
That's really cool.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
I should check in with their cacks, in all honesty
, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
It never hurts.
Just to you know, put a coupleof feelers out there in your
one-on-ones.
Be like hey, how are you guysdoing?
Do you like working here?
Um?
Speaker 1 (14:17):
I think they all know I have a podcast so they could
listen and judge me back if theywanted to.
All right, it's not a secret.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yeah, yeah, fair enough, do you?
I think for your case too,compensation has increased over
the last two years.
It has.
That always helps, yeah, andlike, not the 3% increase,
that's like just accounting forinflation.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Like, both you and I have gotten raises, which helps
that curve me is I'm invested inthe success of the company,
(14:57):
because if the company issuccessful, I too am successful.
So you know that's it'scompensation, but it's also like
weirdly not a directcompensation, right Like it's a.
It's a little bit of a gamble,it's long-term, but it certainly
motivates me to do myday-to-day work because I want
the company to succeed.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, that's one of the coolest things about working
at a startup and not atenterprise or big corp.
It's because you know you.
You can make or break yourbusiness based on what you do
over a short period of time andyour inputs contribute very
tangibly to the end result.
And in big corp sometimes youdon't see like I'm doing this.
(15:34):
I have.
I have no idea how this affectsyou know my company.
In the long term I'm just doingthis thing right Because the
company is so big.
But as a startup, to your point, it's like you kind of have to
be a little bit intrinsicallymotivated, or compensation is
one of your highest, where it'slike if I do well, if I push
people to do well and work theirhardest, we could all get a
(15:54):
massive payout, which could beincredible for us.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, that's cool.
It's also something where I cansee the change in real time and
maybe this is something that'snot on the CAC score at all, but
I've gone.
I just got back from San Diegolast week working our big event.
I've been going to this event.
I've gone to this event fourtimes now.
I've been going to this event.
I've gone to this event fourtimes now.
I've been in the company threeyears, gone to this event four
times.
This is like the beginning of myfourth year and what's crazy is
(16:18):
like year one, no one knew whowe were, no one knew what we
were doing.
No one knew anything.
Year two, it's like okay, maybe10 of people knew who we were,
knew what we're doing stillsmall.
Year three, maybe 40.
Last week I would say 100 ofthe people I talked to knew who
we are and they had a basicunderstanding of our product and
(16:39):
it was just like filling in thegaps, which that's my work,
right, like that's my job.
My job is to create awarenessabout this company and to like
to know that the work me and myteam and my my business unit
have done to make thissuccessful it's.
It is just super motivating andit also shows like what we're
doing is working.
So yeah, it also helps with theCAC in that way too.
Is you see the businessactually grow and become a real
(17:03):
big boy?
Grow from a little baby to abig boy that's awesome Into a
mighty Oak.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
That's great.
So I mean for both of us.
I feel like our Cac hasimproved.
Then I think when we you'llhave to remind me, I think in
our last ratings that we didyour compensation curve got you
to like a c or a low b, if Iremember right, like it was like
a low b rating, meaning like inthe 80s with the spreadsheet
that we did.
Is that right for sure?
(17:33):
Probably like mid 80s which wetalked about is like a pretty
great score.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
It was I would actually say like if I just did
the quick mental math, I'd be ata low, a high b now for sure.
Wow, that's awesome, do you?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
anticipate in the near future anything drastically
changing with that.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
I mean, what's crazy is the pendulum can swing in
either direction overnight,because that's just the name of
the startup, right, like we makea drastic change to our
leadership.
We make a drastic change to ourbusiness model, our product.
Like, when you're small, youcan take big swings and big
(18:17):
turns.
So, yes, things could gettremendously worse or
tremendously better, but I thinkone of the neat things about my
company specifically is we doact like an enterprise.
We're trying to sell anenterprise, so it does afford us
the ability to move a littleslower and be a little more
corporate in our actions, and Idon't foresee big swings
(18:38):
happening.
I think it's going to continueto either creep up or creep down
, based on how we hire and howwe hold ourselves accountable
for the work we do.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, that's interesting, that's awesome,
that is really cool, so yeah,yeah, we talked about.
Yeah, mine is, mine is still, Ithink, pretty low.
I think when we last did it Iwas a C minus like 71.
I was like right on theborderline.
We talked about that, stillpassing, like still okay, it's
not.
We talked about anything belowa C that's like not passing.
(19:11):
In that regard Probably meansyou need to pull plan E, plan
exit like quick.
And so I was kind of on theborderline of that.
I think for me, because I'vebeen really kind of gearing the
schedule towards leaning in more, with my team and culture going
up a little bit, because I tendto enjoy those activities more
and I do feel like they doprovide value, I think it's a
(19:32):
little better.
I don't think it's, you know,largely better.
I think maybe two, three pointshigher, which means the
situation's improving andcompensation has improved, which
means overall like not aterrible score, not great, you
know, probably still open,looking for other opportunities,
but not terrible, it's doable.
However, I think in the nextand that's the reason why I
(19:53):
asked you the question the nextcouple months for me there's
been an organizational change,rules open that I think I should
fit into.
I think that could drasticallychange my feelings for where I'm
at now and I think that wouldpush it into that D category.
I think it'd still be a high Dbecause of the compensation, the
team aspect and everything likethat, but still not great.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
I think it's pushing me to the edge here he's, on the
edge, the edge of glory.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I'm to the edge.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Here he's on the edge , the edge of glory, teetering.
I'm teetering.
I mean it could go a reallygreat the other way, right,
could, yeah, it could, it could,and I think that's it's so
interesting.
You know, what I love about cacis it is very evaluative,
evaluational, I think you haveit right.
(20:43):
It gives you the ability toevaluate on the fly and I don't
think this is something that youjust do once a year and you're
done.
It's not a quarterly, it's nota yearly review, it's not a
quarterly review.
I think CAC is like a monthlyreview, at least right.
Because if, month after month,your score is is going down, you
need to be thinking about, like, what's this doing to my, my
(21:05):
mental well-being, my emotionalwell-being, my physical
well-being, and like stress andunhappiness does take a toll on
you physically.
Uh, like, you have to thinkabout you and I know the
market's not great right now andmaybe it's never going to be
great again, I don't know.
It just seems like we'reconstantly in the state of like
(21:25):
things getting more expensive,things getting worse.
It's hard to think about likedo I leave my company because
I'm not happier, because my CACisn't where I need it to be?
But when you're doing themonthly evaluation, it allows
you to check in and say, hey, ifI get reached out to you by a
recruiter, maybe I should justtake that conversation.
I'm on a downward.
I'm on a downward slope right.
Like I, things could get better, there were golden times, but
(21:48):
would it hurt for me to have aconversation with another
company that I could find abetter time at.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I think in and we talkedabout this a little bit, I think
, even with our corporatecorrespondent, alex Reschrepo
it's like In a lot of situations, for most people you don't want
to just jump because you'rereally frustrated or times are
hard, like you want to ensurethere's something else lined up.
Yes, and to your point, it'slike that's when you know if you
(22:17):
are evaluating.
You're constantly looking atyour CAC and you're like man, I
felt burnt out lately.
I don't generally feel happygoing back to my family, like
sometimes I just don't bringgood vibes to them.
Then you should be open toother opportunities, either you
looking for them, depending onhow dire the situation is, or,
to your point, like if arecruiter is reaching out, you
(22:38):
should take that call Becausethat could drastically change
your situation, especially likeif the economic times are not
great.
Obviously, if the economictimes are great, you can be a
little riskier, but right now,to your point, it's like things
are fluctuating so much youshould probably have something
lined up before you make thejump.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Bounce around like a ping pong ball.
It all depends.
It really does depend on theenvironment truly, uh, internal
environment to the company,external environment to the, the
place you're working in uhplace, I mean country of
residence.
So it's it's interesting.
I I love that we're doing thischeck-in.
I know this is a quickie, Iknow I know we've got a dip here
(23:18):
, but I want to throw it out toour listeners.
If you're in the Discord, getin there.
How's your CAC?
What's your check-in?
Let us know, go to theCorporate Strategy channel in
the Discord.
I want to hear about everyone'sCAC and how they're doing, how
they're feeling about it rightnow.
Do your evaluation.
(23:44):
Then we'll do another check-insecond half of the year and see
how we're doing then, because Ithink by then things will change
for you, clark, and things willchange for me, and it's worth
us checking back in with eachother and saying, hey, cack
better, cack worse.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I agree, yeah, I think it's.
It's a great idea.
It's like maybe we should do apoll or something like that
where we find a way to likegrade.
it's like a, b, c, e, like,depending on whatever our score
is.
And I would encourage to yourpoint.
It's like, first, the first andeasiest thing to do with your,
with your CAC, is say, justprioritize them.
What's top?
Is it culture, is it autonomy,is it challenge, is it
(24:10):
compensation?
And just give it a, one, two,three, four and depending on
that score, you can know, okay,how happy am I in these areas,
in these respects.
And if you just look at it overa week, you can really judge
day by day how was my culturetoday, how was my autonomy today
, how was my challenge today?
Compensation is an offset.
So it's like, even though itwas in the dumps, I made awesome
(24:30):
sales numbers and my salary ormy bonus track is going to be
great.
So that kind of offseteverything.
And I think that's the easiestway to do it, to get your score
everything.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
And I think that's the easiest way to do it, to get
your score.
That's how you can know whereyou stand.
Yeah, just give yourself thatschool grade and uh, d, c, b, a,
f.
If we get any Fs, it's going tobecome a counseling session
where we tell you to leave yourjob.
But uh, do that.
Join our discord.
And the way you do that.
Click on the show, click on theshow notes, go to link tree.
Join the discord.
It's our open community.
You can lurk, you can post, youcan participate.
(24:59):
We love everyone in there.
It's a great way to get intouch with us as well as other
like-minded individuals likeourselves.
Uh, send the show to yourfriends.
Share it widely, share itlargely, share it bigly, bigly.
Share the discord.
The big podcast, the biggest,the biggest.
Uh, we are.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
we are bigly evaluative of this CAC and maybe
we'll do another quickie wherewe talk about CAC and how you
evaluate it for future potentialopportunities.
That's a good one.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
That's a follow up quickie.
I like it All, right, ok, well,we've got our follow up.
We're going to put that on thebooks Schedule, that on the Cal,
Going to make a sort of along-term deep-dip dive into the
topic, double-clicking into it,if you will.
But until then, I'm Bruce andI'm Clark and you're on mute.
(25:54):
We'll see you next week.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Bye.
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