May 19, 2025 • 60 mins
Corporate training events seldom hit the mark, but through our collective experiences, we've identified what separates valuable learning from time-wasting theater. We explore the critical elements necessary to create impactful professional development experiences that respect participants' time and intelligence.
• Different perspectives from outside your organization enhance learning even when covering familiar material
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
okay are we?
Are we cool?
Um well, I I said join, nothinghappened then I said it again,
and then something happened thisis like I'm getting squirreled
in all directions today I meanwe're lucky, correct.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Well, yeah, I mean he's he.
Yeah, I mean he's a beaver, butyes, he's beavering us, or is
he a bear?
Did we decide?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
We've never come to a definitive conclusion on what
species Craig is.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Well, I was worried when you said that, that we were
going to have another J'Arcmoment.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Oh, I don't like when J'Arc shows up.
It makes me feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
It just goes from the flat smile.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
To the angry beaver he's got eyebrows.
I don't like the fact that he'sgot the eyebrows.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
You know you have the question and this is a life
question for you.
If Jark always Is there andworks consistently as a backup,
why not just make him theprimary?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
You don't want to know the answer to that question
.
No, you don't want to know theanswer to that question.
Jark's doing some stuff.
Fair enough, jark has a history, a dark, seedy past.
I mean, you don't want himrecording you.
You don't want to know whathe's doing with those recordings
.
We don't just get a copy thatwe can upload into our podcast
(01:35):
platform of choice.
Jark's doing stuff with thoserecordings that make me deeply
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's kind of scary.
It's like the dark web for me.
I just don't want to thinkabout it.
Yeah, it's kind of.
It's kind of scary, it's likethe dark web for me.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I just don't want to think about it.
Yeah, it's better to ignore itsexistence and only call it in
here when Craig is not able torecord it.
Yeah, yeah, only when you needit, just like the dark web only
when you need it.
How often have you needed thedark web in your life?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I'll be honest, I've never stepped over the line.
Really, I was close.
There was one time it was close.
I went from Reddit somehow gotto 4chan looking for a program I
was looking for in the earlyaughts and I got to 4chan.
I knew it was like this feelsbad.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I feel like I'm doing something illegal.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I was reading the post on there and I'm like I'm
on a list for life just byvisiting this website.
Yes, yes, you are.
I still didn't even do anything, I just was there.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I just clicked the button and I saw the link and I
was like, oh, have you ever liketried messing with Tor and the
pedals and going down into thedarkness?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
You know, i've've like, I've torrented things in
my history, which is completelylegal, by the way, depending
what you're doing, yes, what youtorrent is might not.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Torrenting is legal, but what you torrent might not
be.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yes, so I've torrented things.
Legal or not legal, I'm not,not sure.
It was 15 years ago, so I haveno clue whether what I was doing
.
Who knows, who knows, and atthis point it's to the wind.
You know, but no, I've never.
You said pedals and I don'tknow what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Oh, yeah, so I mean one is not truly lived until
they've dabbled in the dark webarts.
I.
I actually had to do it for acomputer science class in
college.
Really, yeah, we had to go todark web.
It was part of likeunderstanding how the internet
works because you know like thedark web is basically just like
it's all the unsearchable pagesthat the crawlers don't get to,
(03:39):
or they're intentionally madethat way.
So we get there's a, there'sthe dark web with dark web wiki.
What clark is holding up afinger?
He's holding up a single fingerto me, like I realized I was
sitting.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I realized I was sitting, I was going up anyways
continue.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Oh, I'm gonna sit for the rest of my life, uh.
So there's the dark web wiki,which you can go to once you've
gotten on the dark web and youknow that could take you to
other pages.
And I mean, like most of I candefinitely see how you can get
to like drugs and you know lessthan less than happy type uh
(04:18):
posts.
But the forum that I ended upgoing to part of, like the dark
web wiki, which is, you you know, mostly safe stuff.
It's just a bunch of likeconspiracy nuts that like I have
to type here because I'm tooafraid of typing the Reddit
because the government mighthear what my thoughts are saying
.
Like it was like for real.
This is OK.
(04:38):
So JFK still walks among us andhe's got magnet beams in his
brain hole that he sends out totalk to Richard Nixon about the
stolen Watergate, like that'sthe kind of stuff I saw and I
was like this is great, this isfantastic so do you have to be
(05:02):
pretty technical to get there?
no, uh, it's.
It's pretty easy now, it?
It used to be a lot moredifficult.
You can just literally dark webfor dummies.
Go get firefox, download thethe the tour add-on plug-in for
firefox.
Uh, you should be using firefoxanyway.
It's the best browser and youdon't support google, I'll be
(05:23):
honest with you.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You lost me at firefox.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I'm out how dare you?
Firefox is like the lastbastion of hope we have as a
society and, and the sad thingis, is google pays for firefox
to stay around.
So google doesn't have themonopoly, which is funny.
Um, because firefox is precious, it it's perfect.
Don't touch it, don't let itdie.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
You know, google has to sell Chrome, right?
Yes, which is hilarious.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Right, and, and the great thing about Firefox is
it's not Chrome, chrome Frick.
It sucks my God Like it's.
It's like they're in acompetition with Microsoft to
see who can make the most leachyapplication.
It's between Teams and Chrome.
I don't know what's the bestway to drag your computer to a
crawl, like in the olden days.
(06:12):
It's like oh, I'm going to godownload Crysis or download.
I'm going to go grab my fourDVD set of Crysis and install it
on my PC and see how slow itruns.
Today it's like I'm just goingto get in a Teams call.
I'm install it on my pc and seehow slow it runs.
Today it's like I'm just gonnaget in a team's call.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I'm gonna see what that does like used to be the
pinnacle of graphics.
Now it's.
I'm gonna open three tabs ongoogle chrome.
Watch it happen to my ram fam I.
I got a new computer that canhandle quite a bit of compute
and it's crazy.
You like look at your activitymonitor, whatever they call it
on mac and you see the amount ofRAM that Chrome utilizes.
It's absolutely insane.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I don't understand it at all, Like I don't know.
It is crazy.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I agree with you, side tangent someone on my
computer, someone on my computer, someone on my team I found out
uses Edge, and they're probablythe only person.
Oh yeah, I was going to saythey're probably the only person
oh yeah, I was going to sayyou're the only person I've
heard in the last five yearsthat's used edge slash internet
explore.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
If I had to choose between edge and Chrome, I'd
choose edge, okay.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Quick power rankings Chrome, firefox, duck duck go.
Have you used duck duck go orno?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
never touched it.
Okay, out of the list.
Chrome, firefox, safari, edge,firefox number one, safari
number two, edge Chrome.
Yeah, Interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Wow, oh, I didn't throw Arc on there, have you?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
used Arc.
I've not tried Arc.
I don't try a lot of browsersbecause I've got browser
supremacy with Firefox, like Idon't need other browsers.
I have the people's browser.
There is a perfect browser outthere and it's called Firefox.
And the fact and someone'sgoing to be like, well, firefox
can't do X and it's because it'sbecause it's not a Chromium
(07:58):
browser and they can't track youand get your ad information is
why Firefox can't do it.
Thank God Firefox can't do it,and get your ad information is
why Firefox can't do it.
Thank God Firefox can't do it.
Screw the apps and web-basedapplications that say I'm only
going to work in a Chromiumbrowser because I want to steal
your information.
Go pound sand.
Get Firefox.
Support an actual good app outthere.
(08:21):
Give them some ched.
Don't support this podcast.
Screw us.
Go give $10 to Firefox.
That's what.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I'm telling you to do .
I mean, I can't believe.
You just said that we need thatmoney.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I donate to Firefox and Wikipedia because I strongly
believe like they're just twoof the best things out there and
like it's people.
It's people that make thesethings happen.
It's not companies, it's people.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
It's people, it's people that make these things
happen.
It's not companies, it's people, passionate people.
The Wikipedia story is awesomebecause it's still not
non-for-profit, right Right,it's a non-profit, which is
crazy that it's still non-profit.
It is community managed.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
It's crazy.
I always loved in high school,college when people would be
like, oh, don't use Wikipedia,it's not an official source.
It's like what makes Wikipediaany different from Joe Schmoe,
who has his doctorate in Greekliterature?
It's like you know what?
I do believe that this happenedwith Theseus.
I'm going to write about it inthis scholarly journal and post
(09:19):
it.
It's like that's your opinion,man, if someone goes online and
does the same thing in Wikipedia, the only, the only difference
is they don't have theeducational authority to say so.
But because it's managed by acommunity and there's community
fact checking, wikipedia isprobably less biased and more
accurate than most scholarlyjournals that are are usually.
(09:39):
You know the thought of oneperson.
We hopefully going through likethe scientific method, but
still group think that mean thatthere's got to be something
said about the group think.
I don't know, I'm just.
I'm a huge fan of both of theseplatforms yeah, fair enough, I
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah, I want to fact check what you just said, not
now but at a later point,because I'm I am curious like,
with all the tools now you couldprobably stack rank Official
sources and Wikipedia and youcould probably find out which is
more accurate.
There's got to be someone who'sdone that?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I totally agree with you.
Make sure you look ateverything from the last hundred
years compared to Wikipediatoday.
Find me one college librarythat's like, oh, this book's 10
years old.
We're going to go burn it?
No, they keep it around.
So if that's your source.
You go to.
It's 10 years old, right Like,and you can cite that in your
(10:35):
paper.
You can cite that in whateveryour research is and it's out of
date.
It's bad.
It's no good.
You get an A because you citedyour sources.
You're pulling your scholarlyarticles.
Screw the education system,Burn it to the ground, Get rid
of all of it.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
We don't need education.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
We have Wikipedia.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
This is why I want you to know.
This is why you're a personthat goes to the dark web.
You belong there.
Going back to the tangent, I'mgoing to go post my dark web
conspiracy theory.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
I never told you, so you get the plugin for Firefox.
It's called.
Tor download the Tor plugin,what you're going to do from
there.
The easiest way is to look upthe address.
You'll do this on a regularbrowser.
Look up the address for thedark web wiki.
That will then give you thepedal, the address, the long
(11:34):
address.
That is just this nasty,ginormous gooid that you put in
your Tor browser and then youcan get to the dark web wiki.
Welcome to the dark web.
It's not so seedy, is it?
Now, from the wiki you can getlinks that take you to other
dark web places and like some ofthe conspiracy forums I mean,
there's, there's lots of thingsthere it's mostly garbage, like
(11:56):
it's 99 garbage and conspiracytheory, and then it's one
percent drug deals.
So have fun.
The FBI doesn't know how tosearch it and they like to be
active there or no?
It's the NSA.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
NSA.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
NSA yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, they're the ones looking on the dark web.
They're the ones setting up allthe different things.
There's a lot of hooks.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, they do a lot of.
Let's get the right people tomeet at the right places, and
we're going to be hooking youright in, and then we're going
to be arresting you I would.
I would argue, though, that,like, as as seedy as we think
the dark web is and this is,this is, my own opinion.
I have no data to back this up,but, like I would argue, any
discord server could be asillicit, if not worse, because
(12:45):
you're just.
You're just grouping a bunch ofsickos into a single place
together, and who's going toturn them in?
Right, yeah, it's like ourdiscord.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
If you want to join, just click the link on link tree
below.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
You want to see the most seediest crap you've ever
seen in your life.
You want to scrub your eyeballswith bleach.
Join our discord.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
You're not going to believe what you see in there
Immediately, go to what do youmean, and then you'll know.
You'll know you're on the dark,you're past the dark web.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
This is worse than the dark web For the FBI agent
who has to listen to thispodcast.
Please join and let us know ifyou're a cop.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
You do have to let us know if you're a cop.
By the way, it's actually arequirement you join.
It's a requirement.
It's like, hey, you can hangout here, you can, you know,
stay anonymous.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Unless you're a cop, you have to tell us you're a cop
.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I'm gonna start addingthat to my intro.
When people join hey, nice tomeet you.
Feel free to lurk, but ifyou're a cop, you have to tell
us if you're a cop, just let usknow.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
We're not going to kick you out.
We just want to know.
We need to, we need to make itapparent.
Did I tell you I don't?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I don't know where you're going, I'm scared did I
tell you about when I was in mywork event, uh, a few weeks ago
I was working the booth andsomeone someone came to the
booth and and this, this, I meanlike he had a really nice beard
, like a full kind of tacticalbeard.
It was very well-groomed, Imean, he looked like he could
(14:11):
rip me in half with his barehands, but he's wearing a full
suit.
Good, you know, decent lookingburly man.
And he starts talking to me.
He's like oh, tell me aboutyour company.
I'm like oh, you know, I givehim the pitch, tell to me.
He's like oh, let me tell meabout your company.
I'm like, oh, you know, I givehim the pit.
Tell him we're focused onsecurity and all that.
He's like oh yeah, I'm big onsecurity too.
And he leans in.
He's like, uh, I'm a cop.
I'm like, oh well, I'm glad youtold me part of the part of the
(14:34):
experience, but then, you know,I don't know what it is about
me, uh, me and in authority, uh,which you know I have an
aversion to, but they lovetalking to me.
He ended up talking to me for15 minutes telling me how he,
when he arrests people or whenhe, not when he arrests, when he
chases people, goes after them,detains them, he will take
(14:57):
their phones from them, push theunlock button and then face
unlock it by forcing them tolook at it and then he
immediately goes in and changestheir password.
I'm like this is this?
Is this legal?
I feel like that's illegal, thatfeels very illegal.
Why are you telling me this?
Uh, and then, and then heproceeded to tell me how, in a
week's worth of time, he wouldnot be able to tell me what the
(15:20):
price of meth was, because methis just a very fluctuant drug
when it comes to its pricing.
He's like, oh meth, um, whatwas the other one?
It was, oh, fentanyl.
I couldn't tell you how muchit's worth because it literally
the price just it's.
You know it's worse than thestock market, but cocaine,
cocaine hasn't changed pricesince the 80s.
(15:42):
He's like I can tell you theprice of cocaine right now, top
of my head.
I I'm like, oh, cool, cool,thank you, I'm not asking.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
I'm not asking, but I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Do you want to see a demo of our product?
And then he's like, let me tellyou, let me tell you how you
get information on people.
I'm like, okay, cool, cool.
This is the weirdestinteraction I've ever heard of.
I go to protests on theweekends.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Okay, I don't even like have words.
You were at a tech conference.
Yes, Working your booth in thisrandom cop.
Was the cop working the?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
event, I think.
So I think he was likeundercover security.
Which is, you know, interestingbecause he becomes a cop Like
oh Cool.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Which is, you know, interesting because it becomes a
cop like oh cool I think if welook at your job title, sir,
you're missing a key part of it.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Undercover, not just walk up to people to hey, I'm a
cop I, because of my palenessand in my, my frailness, I think
I'm very, I'm very approachableand trustworthy to to those in
authority, because they knowthey can break me and I think
they also know that I'm.
They look at me and they justsee a snitch.
(16:53):
They're like oh, this guy, thisguy would turn in his neighbor.
If he thought his neighbor wasup to no good, he'd call us and
turn him in.
They're like little.
Do you know I am an anarchist.
I find all of this to be afailure.
Uh, it's weird.
It's weird, yeah, that is weird.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
That is very weird.
And what a time and what a timeto be alive.
What conversation to get intowhile you're working your
conference booth.
I'll be honest, kind of fun ifyou're thinking about the rest
of working at a conference.
I've given the pitch like ahundred times today.
Random dude comes up, give methe street prices for drugs.
Sure why not.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Why not?
Let's go down this rabbit?
I mean I talked to him for 15minutes.
I'm not going to say I didn'tenjoy the conversation, like
part of me was like I just needto be careful of what I say
because apparently, you know,sometimes I can get, I can get a
little goofy and I don't wantthat to come across as me being
serious.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
So I have to button it up.
Quinn, talking to people, andshould have leaned in.
You should have leaned in andbe like have you heard of the
dark web?
This is going to blow your mind, man.
I'm sure he has.
I'm sure he has.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I am sure he has, and I I really don't want to talk
to him about that.
I mean, like you know, I Ireally just wanted to.
I don't want to talk to anybody, so you know, it was just uh
how did we get here?
Speaker 1 (18:19):
How did this happen?
How did we get here, did we?
Do a vibe check have we done?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
an intro have we done an intro to the podcast.
Are we live?
No, let's not do it.
I'm not going to do it.
I'm not going to do it thisweek, just no intro.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
No, I don't feel like it.
Okay, I mean, I can supportthat.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, I think we should.
Okay, let's just not, it's justnot Welcome back to Corporate
Strategies, a podcast.
That could have been an email.
I'm Bruce.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
And I'm Clark and I knew that was going to happen.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I was waiting, I knew you knew but it was a win Win
and I could have waited longer.
I could have waited and to makehim really think like, is he
going to not do it?
Is that really going to happen?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Oh, how long was that ?
19 minutes ago.
Good, I'm gonna make a note ofthat.
We've been here for that longand we're just doing a new
record.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
New record 19 calling the pod through the roof.
20 minutes of nonsense.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Intro our podcast is turned.
Our podcast is turned into asandwich of nonsense for each
side and then some valuablecontent in between, but it's
getting smaller and smallerevery time, because the intro
gets more and more nonsenseevery time.
The outro gets more and morenonsense every time.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
In the middle is just there, it's really, it's really
become an Oreo, because it usedto be an ice cream sandwich,
right, like?
You get a little bit of goof atthe beginning and a little bit
of goof at the end, a whole lotof cream in the middle.
Now let's just straight up Oreothere's 66% goof and then
there's the creamy goodness.
That's a 33%.
(19:52):
Sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Sorry about it.
Maybe I'd say more of a Reese'sor an M&M.
It's like the value is justsurrounded by this core and you
don't know when you're going toget to that core.
You know you're just going tokeep chomping away, hoping like
maybe there's something good inhere, and you're going to be
scrubbing a little bit fastforwarding, hoping you find it,
(20:17):
and somehow you get to the otherside and you missed it.
You just swallowed the goodstuff.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
I'm just not.
I'm having a lot of troublevisualizing you eating an M and
M, Like I thought you just putthem in your mouth.
I thought that was the way youeat an M and M oh, little
colorful piece of candy ontongue, Chomp, chomp, swallow.
Mission accomplished.
But you're making it sound likeit's a lot more work.
And now I want to see you eatan M and M.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
All right, listen.
Okay, M&M was a bad choice.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
I think Reese's is a better descriptor of how this
podcast has become Fun size,regular size, king size, mega
size.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Oh, I didn't know they came with a mega, don't
they have like a half pound one?
That's just huge, oh do they?
Speaker 2 (21:04):
I think they do.
It's massive, that's dangerous.
I would love to just take abite of that, because think how
much peanut you're getting.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Well, that's what I'm saying is like, just like our
podcast, you're going to biteinto it and you might just get
all chocolate.
And so you're like, okay, I'mgoing to like scrub a little bit
, I'm going to like flip thisthing around and try to bite
into it from this angle allchocolate.
And then you're going to see,like I'm just going to go to the
complete opposite side.
There's got to be peanut butterin here somewhere.
All chocolate.
Only do you realize you got toget through the chocolate to get
(21:33):
to the peanut butter again Iask like, what kind of reese's
are you eating?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I, I see my hands by all of your candy analogy.
Yeah, okay, okay, mega sucks.
I'm talking.
Clark is doing a handshape thatlooks like he could be holding
a medium-sized turtle, so I'mimagining a turtle-sized Reese's
.
But even still, like thepercentage of chocolate the
peanut.
The percentage of chocolate thepeanut is not so significant
(22:00):
that if I took a big honkingbite of that thing, of that
turtle, I wouldn't be gettingsome juicy peanut Okay, so maybe
that does accurately describethis podcast then I think we're
22 minutes in our podcast isofficially become a uh, it's.
(22:24):
It's a beaver sized oreo.
Is what it is.
I mean it is.
It is huge.
Your, your hands have to bemore than shoulder width apart.
You're holding on to thisbeaver sized oreo.
You take a bite.
I just got cookie.
No, where's the cream?
Pizza sized Oreo, that's it.
Beaver size Beaver's, not agood size because there's
(22:46):
various kinds of beaver.
Yeah, Pizza sized Oreo.
I mean that's a lot of cookiebefore you get to the cream.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Well, and you don't know whenyou're going to get there.
Like you think you can justscrub to like end or the middle,
and you think you're going toget there.
But sometimes we do the intro22 minutes in and then you're
like, okay, is there any actualcontent in this, or are they
just rambling to each other for30 minutes?
That's what you don't know.
It could hit you right in thebeginning, it could hit you
right at the end.
(23:13):
You don't know what you'regetting yourself into.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
You really don't.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
I still don't.
To be quite honest, we'rerunning the show.
You know our episodes over timehave gotten longer and longer.
Sure, I would think like valuewould also increase, but I think
actually the value has alwaysstayed the same and now they're
just more just more.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, it's.
It's kind of like when theyused to have those bags of chips
, they'd be be like now with 20%more bag.
And you're like, wait a second,you didn't say chip, you said
bag.
And it's like the bag is bigger, there's more air in the bag.
Same amount of chip was alwaysthere.
And you look it's like, oh, theold bag had 22 ounces of chip.
(23:58):
New bag, which is way morewasteful in the plastic, still
has 22 ounces of chip.
New bag, which is way morewasteful than the plastic, still
has 22 ounces of chip.
Yeah, we are the chip bag ofpodcasts.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
That's who we are.
Yes, well, it's good to be here.
I'm glad you guys keep onlistening to us.
Thanks for having me, clark.
Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
All right, we'll see you guys next week.
All right, Bye.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Well, we didn't vibe check.
At this point, I think weshould just skip it.
No one cares.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, same, I have a topic for you.
Hey, what is it?
It's going to be one that Ithink lines up well with you and
with me, for multiple reasons,and with everybody listening
Whoa, it's going to blow yourmind, be careful.
It actually was inspired alittle bit off of something I
saw on LinkedIn from our friend,alex Reschrepo.
(24:49):
He posted about an event hewent to, like a training, and he
was like pumped about howawesome it was.
He was talking about theimportance of human connection,
how great the presenters were,and it got me thinking about
like how many trainings have Ibeen to that I've like walked
(25:10):
away and been like I'm fired up,I learned, I connected with
people.
It was really really great, andthe answer was not many.
Like there's like one or two inmy long corporate career where
I'm like, yeah, that wasproductive, that was a good use
of time.
I feel like that was awesomeand I thought it might be good
to talk about.
Well, what makes up a goodtraining?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
What makes up a good physical event period.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Could be that we could go that far if you'd like.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I mean let's start with training.
But I think we can Because, inall honesty, the event I went to
tremendous waste of time.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
And it hasn't always been.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
So you know it is interesting, right?
And I think the two are alittle closer linked than you
might think.
So let's start with a goodtraining.
Start with a good training.
Firstly, we're assumingphysical right.
I would say yes, I would saywe're not doing a zoom training
yeah, like teams and stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, I get a lot of trainings happen there.
Let's be honest, like 75 ofpeople aren't really paying
attention during zoom and teamstrainings and whatever.
So I think we talk like you'rephysically going to a place to
have a training of some sort.
It could be for learning,certification, kind of like a
team town hall quarterlybusiness review, whatever you
(26:26):
want to call it.
You okay bundling thosetogether.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Let's bundle, let's bundle.
Yeah, let's get a discount,yeah, why not?
I'm on safe Step one.
It needs to be a differentperspective than the one I have,
to be a different perspectivethan the one I have.
You can say something I alreadyknow, but from a different
perspective, and immediately I'mleaning in, doing the finger on
(26:53):
the upper lip.
I'm like, oh okay, interesting,I have not considered this and
that's important.
If the person giving thetraining is someone you know or
they're like someone who workswith you, chances are they're
going to be very similar to theway you think they're probably
drinking the same Kool-Aid youdrink.
You're immediately going tokind of boredom check out,
(27:15):
because I already know this,I've already heard this.
But when you bring someone inwho has a different perspective,
you're already kind of offkilter because they're they're
challenging your worldview, evenif they're saying essentially
the same thing that you've heardbefore.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
That's interesting.
I've never actually thoughtabout that.
So you're saying like as akickoff towards whatever,
whatever the topic is, if youjust say what everybody already
knows, you're, you just loseeverybody, right there, right.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Just gone, just done.
I'll give you.
I'll give you an example, right, um, let's.
Let's say you're at a training.
It's going to teach you how tobetter network with your
customers.
If the person getting upteaching the training is your
head of sales, chances arethey've been trained and have
(28:10):
been exposed to all of yourmarketing and your enablement
and most of the things that youhave already been through
because you're part of the samecompany, been through because
you're part of the same company.
If you bring in someone who isa customer who has not gone
through your training, yourrigmarole, they do like your
Kool-Aid, they drink it, theylike what you're selling.
But the customer's like here'swhy I like your network or
(28:37):
here's how I do this thing.
Suddenly you're hearing thesame thing, but you're hearing
it in a very different way.
They have a totally differentperspective than what you've
heard a thousand times before,which I think just makes that a
lot more interesting.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, I actually, I really like that.
I think when you are hosting anevent or something for people
that are familiar with you, ifyou're the one kind of leading
it, bringing someone, like yousaid, a customer or like someone
interesting ones yeah, partner,it could be a partner for your
company, it could be maybe evensomeone like famous to talk
about, like how they're kind ofrelated to this or why they're
(29:13):
interested, or just like afireside chat of you know,
whatever the topic is for thattraining.
I think that immediately grabssomeone's attention to be like
I'm going to hear something Ihaven't heard before from either
someone else that's talkingabout it or a different
perspective.
I like that.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I will say and I just caution on this because I've
worked with it when you bring insomeone famous, there is always
the chance that they have noidea what they're talking about,
and it can have the oppositeeffect, where it's like, oh
you're, you're cool, but thiswas not helpful.
Yeah, so consider that ifyou're on the setup side of
(29:52):
things.
But yes, I do agree.
I think any outsider that's nota member of your direct org
even better, a member of yourcompany but has expertise in
this thing is always going to bebetter at training than someone
local.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yeah, I like that.
So, step one, change thenarrative that is not going to
be mundane to everyone elseeither by having a different
perspective.
Yeah, new perspective, I likethat.
That's great.
Step two.
Step two Like what is another,and I don't even know if it's
steps or if it's just likepillars or things to consider.
(30:27):
I don't think these areprioritized at all because
they're coming off.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Keep it under two hours and have breaks.
Yeah, hugely important.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, One I agree.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
We're a generation of folks that can't go five
minutes without checking ourphones.
Like, if it's an eight hourtraining, four hours up front,
you get a 30 minute lunch withthe crappiest sandwich you ever
had in your life and then we'reback in it.
All you're going to do is makeeveryone hate you everyone in
the room, the trainer, theperson who set this up.
It's going to be a hate festand your morale is going to be
(31:04):
worse afterwards and you're notgoing to take anything away.
But if it's like hey, this is atwo-hour course, we're going to
meet up in person.
It's two hours, we're going todo an hour, we're going to do a
30-minute break in the middleand then afterwards we're going
to go do top golf and thentomorrow we'll do another two
hours kind of thing.
Like, splitting things up allowsone for you to digest to.
It allows you to haveconversations with people
(31:25):
afterwards, which is reallywhere the training sets in.
It's like hey, did you knowabout this?
Like that's, that was reallyhelpful.
Putting, putting in thosebreaks and having the
opportunity to talk and shareMakes it so much more
interesting and it'll it'll sinkin better than word vomit.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I agree.
I think that's like maybe whatyou're saying too is only make
it as long as it's actuallyneeded.
There's a law called and we'vementioned on this here before
Parkinson's law.
I just looked it up, justdouble check.
I was talking about the rightone.
But it's time will essentiallyfill, or the activity will fill
the time that's actually allowed, and so if you schedule
something for four hours,whatever you're trying to do
(32:05):
will be four hours.
That's basically what the lawis saying.
So it's like if you condense it, it could actually be two,
because you put the constraintsof time and you've got to figure
out how am I going to get thisdone in two hours?
So shortening time is actuallya really good thing, not only
because of our mental capacity,but also because I think your
activities actually could be alot shorter, and eight hours is
just unnecessary.
(32:26):
And you know what happens.
The second they get into a fourhour meeting, what comes out on
the tables, the laptops,everyone's like, yep, that's
like half my day.
You expect me not to be lookingat email and my Slack channels
and all that.
Like yeah, I'm going toimmediately go to that to try
and be productive.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
I agree if, if the viewer feels like they might
miss something, because this is,this is a condensed course.
Usually I do this in four hours.
Today we're doing it in two.
It's like, oh well, I don'twant to move.
Yeah, we're gonna move throughthis.
This is gonna be a breakneckspeed.
I better not look at my laptopor phone right like there is a
little bit of mentalmanipulation that can occur
(33:02):
there.
But I think also it's justattention spans are not what
they used to be.
You have to be considerate ofthat and people's time in
general, and it needs to be themeat, all meat.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
No reese's chocolate exactly not like this podcast at
all yeah, yeah, it needs to beall peanut, no you mentioned
something as like a sub part ofwhat you just said, but I
actually think it's like atotally different pillar or
whatever we're calling these addin activity.
I think activities are soimportant to like.
You know, either get everybodyout of their seat, like doing I
(33:39):
kind of hate the icebreaker crap.
You know that you typically do.
It's like go talk and writedown three people's names and
like what their favorite coloris and like that's stupid.
But if you add something cool,like hey, we're trying to get to
Topgolf, we got two hours butthen we got to leave.
We got our appointment atTopgolf, like we're all aiming
to that and after you know,we're going to all just hang out
, eat food, hang out together,do an activity that's fun.
(34:03):
So either something you're likebookending or starting with, or
something that's actuallyengaged in, like the topic
itself.
So I remember you and I we did abig like agile transformation
from Waterfall and we went offsite.
It was definitely longer thanit needed to be, but it was like
two or three days in like ahotel setting and where we were
(34:26):
drinking Kool-Aid about agileand doing it together.
But the one thing I loved isthey forced us to do activities
around like okay, let's likepretend we're building something
, let's make up something, let'sbuild it together.
We're going to do the wholeagile process.
We're going to sprint plan.
We're going to basically breakeverything down into stories
together.
We're going to see whatchallenges come up and then at
the afternoon session we'regoing to do like a retrospective
to talk about like how thatsprint went.
(34:47):
And so we literally just madean activity where we formed into
scrum teams and we did it,which I thought was actually
really, really cool, because itkind of made us work together
and it got us out of our seatand not just listening to words,
but actually getting intowhatever we were trying to do.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
I think if you have a healthy ratio of 40% talking to
60% activity, you're doing itright.
You know, like, then you can.
Then you can get a full eighthour day of training, because I
only have to sit and listen for40% of the day.
I know that the other 60% isgoing to be spent doing, and
(35:22):
it's important because doing ishow you learn right.
Listening is great.
Yeah, you can take some notes,you can.
Oh, that's a good tip, I'll trythat out someday.
But actually going through thepractice and doing the thing
this happens a lot withtechnical trainings right,
you'll have the instructor gothrough some slides show you.
This is how you set up ourfancy schmancy widget.
(35:44):
Now let's go into your lab anddo it yourself.
The lab needs to be longer thanthe discussion and there needs
to be room for conversation.
And hey, I'm having troublewith this.
What's going on?
Like, okay, let's talk about itin the room.
Like it needs to be interactive, otherwise the learning is not
happening.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, I agree, it is interesting, like when you think
back to like high schooldepending on what, what classes
you took or even college.
Like I took auto shop and ahuge part of it was just being
in the shop doing the thingsthat we're learning, so
literally.
And what I loved about it iscause like they're pretty blue
collar guys who were teaching usbut they'd like take us in the
room and be like hey, there'slike 30 pages on this crap.
(36:24):
We're going to spend like fiveminutes.
I'm just going to tell you thebullet points and show you some
pictures.
Then we're going to go outthere and we're actually going
to do it for the next two hoursand you're going to learn how to
do it hands on and like thatprinciple, like some of the
things that captures.
You know the overall theory,how you do it, why you do it,
(36:45):
but then go actually do it.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I can't remember if I mentioned this on our previous
episode.
We talked about our educationexperience.
But one of the things I lovedabout going to Hogwarts
Wizarding School for whites is60% of your grade was
participation.
Like you, you had to show up toclass.
If you missed three classes,you failed.
And when you showed up to class, 60% of your final grade.
(37:10):
Your teacher every day wouldlike put down.
This is how much Bruceparticipated in class today and,
like you, could pass a classand never pass a test because
you participated.
But participation was basicallyI am participating in
discussion, I am offering upopinions, I'm asking questions,
I'm invested, like they'rechecking to make sure the
material.
You're not just reading thematerial, you're not just able
(37:33):
to regurgitate what you read 20minutes before class in your
cram sesh.
It's you're able to have adiscussion with teacher and your
fellow classmates about thething.
And I do attribute a lot ofthat to why I've learned as much
as I did in college, despitehating academia and that whole
system, because I knew if Iparticipated I get a good grade.
(37:54):
But it didn't work right Like,yeah, I passed and I never did
homework and it's mostly becauseI was able to listen and
participate and have thoseconversations in the classroom
setting.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
That's pretty cool.
Yeah, I agree with you.
Yeah, I think doing that theactivity is so important.
I'm good on that one.
I have another phase.
Yeah, I think, upfront, youshould outline like the
objectives and I think what Ihate about and it kind of goes
between these two but what Ihate about the all the
(38:27):
certifications and crap likethat, for, like certified scrum,
product owner, master, whateverit's like okay, all you did was
learn theory for two hours whenin reality, a lot of it's just
you need to get in there andlike work with teams and what's
more impressive is actually likebuilding things successfully
with other people.
Don't really care how you gotthere, but it's way more
impressive to see that thanyou've got 20 certifications,
(38:47):
because that just means youattended something and you got a
certification.
That's not very impressive, butactually doing the thing with
an activity is much moreimpressive.
And I think the you know thephase of like objectives is like
start off with saying hey, whenyou leave this.
Think the you know the phase oflike objectives is like start
off with saying hey, when youleave this.
This is what you should know.
You should be able to do thiswhen you leave this training or
whatever.
It's like you know.
(39:08):
Let's say, you're setting uplike a hypervisor for your
company or whatever.
So it's like you should be ableto set up VMware and be able to
configure servers and do allthis stuff.
It's like you should be able todo this once you leave this
event.
That's what success looks like,and so being upfront at the
very beginning, to say this iswhat you're going to leave and
know how to do, I think is superimportant.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I like that too, because they've actually said
that humans are a little bitpredisposed to liking spoilers.
If a movie gets spoiled for you, you're far more likely to
enjoy it than if it isn't, whichis weird.
Yeah, they did.
They did a whole study on that.
I personally love surprises, soI don't understand, but the
(39:47):
research shows people likeknowing what's going to happen,
so just going off that alone, Ithink you're right Setting an
agenda, setting an outcome,specifically saying, if you go
through this and you do theactivities and you participate,
you will be able to sell thisproduct.
You'll be able to do thistechnical thing.
(40:10):
Like I like that because itstarts with a, a winner's
mindset, right.
And like you're basicallysaying like everyone in this
room is capable of doing thisthing, we're going to get you
all there today.
Like it is a positive note roomis capable of doing this thing,
we're going to get you allthere today.
Like it is a positive note andI think it just it sets the
brain in motion to to achievesomething.
Versus today we're going tolearn about computers like, oh,
(40:32):
I knew that, but I guess we'restarting there.
Huh, yeah, Versus today when youleave this course, you're going
to be able to code your owngame that you can sell for
millions of dollars.
Like you know, it's just likesetting the expectation.
That's huge.
I love that, clark Goodthinking yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, I think that's one of the most important things
.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
And yeah, start with the book.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
It's starting.
It's beginning with, like, theend in mind, if that makes sense
of like setting those clearexpectations.
And I can't remember where Igot this from, but it's like
reverse pyramid style.
It's like, rather than like,tell the story to get to the
thing, like you said, it's liketell them the ending and then
get to the ending by the contextthat everybody can see.
The vision of this is wherewe're heading.
This is what I'm going to beable to do, and then you can
(41:16):
like go through the steps toactually do the thing, rather
than getting all the way to theend, and then big reveal you
know how to code games.
It's like wait, I was trying todo that the whole time.
I didn't even know.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
And you know what else it.
Also, when you set expectationslike that and you give them a
very clear you will be able todo X by the end of this thing,
you don't get disappointment, Imean, unless you don't do the
thing.
But you could say, today we'regoing to learn about computers
and then all you learn is how tocheck your email in Google
Chrome and you walk away fromthat course Like I didn't learn
(41:47):
a damn thing about computers.
I learned that this, thisinstructor likes a really crappy
browser and only knows how tocheck his email.
And like you don't have a badexperience.
Versus if they said that fromthe onset, we're like they
didn't lie.
They did say we were going tolearn how to check our email on
Google Chrome.
Like having the expectationmeet the reality.
I think that's very importantfrom a satisfaction perspective,
(42:07):
Cause even if I didn'tparticularly learn anything in
the course, I can't give them abad review because they told me
what I was going to get out ofit, Right, Like did this course
meet your expectation?
Well, yeah, they said they weregoing to teach me this.
They taught me that.
So yeah, it's good.
But if it's misleading, youdone messed up.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I also like the um and maybe these go together is
set the expectation for whoshould be there.
Yeah, Like hey.
This, this course is built forpeople who are gonna what like
daughter shop thing it's like,who are going to have to get
hands on.
You're going to have to getdirty, you're going to have to
change some oil.
If you don't want to do that,don't stick around like.
(42:47):
This is what this course isgoing to be.
That I.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
I'm so glad you brought that up, Clark.
That is one of my biggest beefsin trainings is the mandatory
everyone must attend training.
It's like I already know thisinside.
I passed the test last year.
Why am I doing this again?
Like what's the point?
Well, it's mandatory, Everyonehas to do it.
Like that's a problem.
(43:12):
If everyone has to do it, theneveryone's wasting their time,
because I'm guaranteeing I'm notthe only person here that knows
this and I think that putspeople in a real bad mood too.
And it also tells me that youare not capable or caring enough
to say I value and respect thetime and money we spend on all
(43:33):
of our employees to say, hey, ifthey passed this last year,
they should not need tore-enroll and do it again.
Like we value them more thanthat versus all right, everyone
gets to go through thismandatory training.
That if you didn't have to sitthrough an hour long video, you
could just mindlessly clickthrough the test and pass, Cause
(43:55):
you know at the back of yourhand, One is insulting and hurts
morale.
The other basically says, yeah,you don't have to do this, you
already passed.
Like oh, you respect my time,you care about me?
Wow, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Appreciate that.
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
I agree If you make it an elective, then you can
actually see who cares aboutyour company.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
That's true.
See who shows up?
Yeah, some of those things arejust a test of like, who's
actually going to be interested?
Who cares?
Yeah, who actually cares?
I like that.
How do you, how do you getpeople who are not going to
contribute out?
Like, that's what I'm trying toget to a little bit too.
Is you?
You know, you've been part oflike groups that you're like, oh
(44:35):
crap, like this person kind ofsucks.
They're not even payingattention to the activity.
I'm gonna have to do themajority of the group project
here.
Like that is like the worstthing for a training when you
get stuck with the group thatyou're like, oh man, these
people suck you know, it's evenworse than that having me in
your training, because this is,this is a true story from a few
(44:57):
months ago.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
If you invite me to your training and I am the
expert and turns out you are not, I'm going to make you look bad
in front of everybody andyou're going to end your
training 30 minutes earlybecause you invited Bruce and
this happens and I'm like well,I was forced to be here, so
(45:19):
thanks for this.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Are you?
talking about like the hostDidn't know oh that's rough,
yeah, and because not goodexpectations were set.
It wasn't done the right way,it was very much a.
Not good expectations were set,it wasn't done the right way,
it was very much a.
Bruce is going to have to stepin and ask some hard questions
here, because Bruce doesn't knowwhy he's been here for for the
(45:43):
period of time he has, and thetraining ended up ending early
because Bruce derailed the wholething.
Uh so so it's a thing you gottabe careful and be careful who
you invite to right.
Like I am, I am veryanti-authoritarian as, as made
as made known multiple times onthis podcast, I don't like
(46:03):
authority.
I'm anti-academia.
The way I like to learn is bybeing hands-on.
I want to actually go and dothe thing.
Give me, give me a guide.
You can give me an instructorif I respect them and and let me
go try the thing.
But do not stick me in a chairand force me in front of a
screen for eight hours and say,hey, you're going to learn this.
(46:24):
It's like I already know this.
So what are we doing here?
Like that, I'm not alone.
Like I'm not a I'm not aone-off force of nature.
There are lots of people likeme out there.
I would I would actually sayAlex Estrepo is also one of
these people very smart, muchsmarter than I am, and can
derail a training if you want itto, because he knows things.
(46:44):
And it's disrespectful for theorganization to basically say
this person needs to be forcedthrough this activity, even
though they could teach thecourse if they want to.
So, like you, gotta be careful,because there are there are
people like us who will say,well, if I'm being forced to do
this, then I'm also going tomess this thing up.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
And then you I think youmentioned this on a previous
episode, but I love it it's likein a meeting I think that that
was our context for the lasttime Like if you're in a meeting
, like who's going to throw awrench in everything, or like
call things out and like that'sthe type of you will get those
people, and the presenter has acouple options.
(47:24):
It's like either they take thathead on and like try to wrangle
it and if they're reallycompetent, they probably will
and be like wait, no, but you'rethinking about this wrong,
think about it this way.
And when they do that, it'slike okay, now they're proving
to you like no, we're about tolook at it from a different
angle, so hold on a second,we're going to get there.
And that's kind of like settingyou back to be like don't worry
(47:44):
, bruce, we're going to getthere, but I need you to think
differently than you're thinkingnow.
And that's going to try to gethim out of this, or I'm going to
end it early.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Yeah, and that's exactly what I wanted.
I wanted it Like.
It was like being slightlyfacetious Always I am a
facetious person.
But what I have loved a realanswer to the questions I was
asking and like the examples Iwas bringing up.
I would have loved that becausethen it would have proven, like
one I don't know everything toput me in my place, know
everything and you put me in myplace.
Like I don't mind being put inmy place, I can be taught, I can
(48:20):
learn.
And two, it's saying well, nowI know how to do this.
Like thank you, you've helpedme, you've trained me.
Like what a great experience.
But it's that.
Right back to point one.
This is why you have to bringin outside perspectives who are
experts in the thing, because ifyou're just, if you're saying,
hey, your peer is teaching thistraining, it's like my peer
doesn't know as much as I do.
This is going to be a problem,like it's not going to go well.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Yeah, a hundred percent agree, I love it.
Any other tips?
No, like thinking about, likeall the things we just talked
about.
It's like yeah bring a change ofperspective, set objectives and
expectations for like what'sgoing to be.
You know the outcome.
What are you going to walk awaywith?
(49:02):
What are the actual, likehands-on, physical things we're
going to do?
Tell people, hey, you should behere If you want to do these
things.
If you don't get out, includean activity where it's like
theoretical stuff, talking stufflike that.
Like 40% the 60% shouldactually be the learning and
doing and then really shortenthat time to only what's needed
and include those activities.
(49:23):
And when you do that, I thinkyou have a super productive
session that is going to bevaluable to everyone and
everyone's going to walk awaybeing like that was awesome,
like I'm ready, I know thisthing, I can do this thing,
whatever the objective was.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
Remember how I said, this is not just applicable to
training.
Yeah, literally all of thosethings is true for any physical
event.
Yeah, does not matter what itis.
And I like, as someone who,like, is involved with setting
up and managing physical events,you have to do that, you have
to be considerate of all ofthose things.
Otherwise, you're just going toupset your attendees and
(49:58):
they're gonna think, well, thisis a waste of time, I'm not
gonna do this next year andyou're you're not gonna continue
to do those kind of events longterm, because no one's gonna
want to come do them absolutely.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
the last one that I always hear is like they ask for
feedback on the sessions, oofand and I'll be honest, another
mistake.
That's a huge mistake.
Every single time, it's neverbeen productive, and sometimes
they'll even show it on thescreen after They'll be like
this is what people are voting.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Oh my gosh, and then it's just embarrassing.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
It's like, oh God, 60% of the people did not find
this productive.
That was pointless to show onthe screen after.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
That's really when you don't want me in the room
because it's going to be very.
You're going to have one personwho scores just like.
Oh wow, usually people don'tselect strongly, disagree for
everything.
Who did this?
Me?
That was me.
I'll tell you why that was meand because you asked, let me
run you through all of mythoughts yeah yeah, it's, it's
just not good.
Don't do that.
If if you want feedback,firstly, be prepared to be upset
(51:02):
and secondly, don't make itpublic afterwards everyone did a
great job, everyone had goodthings to say, even if it's not
true, and move on.
Uh, yeah, completely agree yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
This is a fun one.
I know you had no idea this wasgoing to come in, but I saw it
and I was thinking about earlierand I was thinking back to like
, yeah, what are the productiveones that I've had?
I've even hosted some where Idefinitely think I could have
done better and I think I'velike done a decent job like
constraining it, includingactivity, but I don't think I
did a great job on like whatsuccess looks like and what the
(51:38):
objective at the end is to beable to do, and so I think I can
take a lot of these learnings,too for the next in-person type
of thing that I do, which I willbe doing one in about a month
for my team.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
I do a lot of trainings, a lot of
presentations, and my goal isalways get in, get out as
quickly as humanly possible andtry and engage the audience when
I can.
I consider it a personalfailure if no one asks a
question or if no oneparticipates with my activities.
(52:11):
Like that is just like Bruce,you failed, you failed and in
many times it's because thepeople suck, but it's also
because I failed.
So two things can be true atthe same time.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
This one, I think, comes naturally for you and for
me, but I don't, and maybe itunderlies all this is like the
engagement factor, like don'tjust state a fact.
Like if you're telling peopleabout your team like, let's say,
like product management, Icould very much just say like
your team.
Like, let's say, like productmanagement, I could very much
just say like, hey, productmanagement is a growing industry
.
This is why it's important X, yand Z.
Instead, I'd like to ask, likea provocative question that
(52:41):
forces engagement Raise yourhand if you've ever dealt with a
crappy product manager.
Don't you dare raise your hand.
I'm looking at you.
His hand is high in the air, ashigh as it would go.
Like that forces engagementright.
To be like okay, like, tell melike what you think are the
qualities of a good productmanager.
And like, even if you say, hey,tell me a horror story working
(53:04):
with product manager, like thatis going to get people engaged.
And be like this is awesome,like we're just riffing now and
then you can kind of geteverybody's attention to get
hooked on the topic ahead.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
The best part about that, too, as an instructor, is
you're doing less work.
Yeah, put it on them.
You're literally letting theclass teach the class, which is
great If you can get that tohappen.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
Absolutely.
I love it, when um everything Ido.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
I do a session every month for our new hires.
It's called the History of DataProtection.
It's 30 minutes.
I try to make it fun.
I try to put some jokes in theslides, but I love it when I
have people in the class thatknow more than me, because
that's where I learn and thatactually improves my sessions.
I'll bring up things peoplehave brought up in the past and
(53:53):
that's always good.
Speaker 1 (53:54):
Yeah, that's awesome.
I love it.
I think we crushed it.
Speaker 2 (53:59):
See, there's the peanut butter.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
The peanut butter tastes so good when you find it.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Oh, it's so good.
I do want a pizza-sized Reese'scup.
Same Dude.
They're so good, they're sogood I want one right now.
Have you ever had the?
They make the jar of the actualpeanut.
They call it peanut butter.
But it's not that.
Let's be real, oh you'retalking about like the Nutella
(54:25):
but the jar of like thespreadable?
Yeah, they have, like the jarof the Reese's peanut, but it's
not, it's not.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
No, like I want a jar of whatever that center gunk is
, I just want a spoon right inmy mouth.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
You know what I'm saying, okay, so this is maybe
the next live stream we have todo.
We have to find the mega,biggest Reese's cup we can find
and then what we also have to dois we have to scrape the peanut
butter out of Reese's Somehowseparate the chocolate from the
peanut butter and then we got tomelt it down and do a taste
test side by side and you tellwhich one was encased in
chocolate and which one justcame out of the jar.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
I like this activity.
Do you remember back in thegood old days, the golden age of
Big Corp, when we used to dolike food-based activities?
Like, were you there when weshook the box of panda cookies
and it turned into a ball?
Yes, yes, you know what I'mtalking about.
(55:23):
You know what I'm talking aboutwait.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
How did we shake it though, because I remember it
came out.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
I have a video.
I have a video of it actuallywhy I why I asked if you were
there?
Because you were there.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Well, I think either I was, I remember you did one, I
think before I joined, and Idid not participate in that one,
but then we did another one.
After that we were like hey, weshould do this again, and I
think I was there for that one.
Speaker 2 (55:49):
Yeah, yeah, it's so much fun For those who want to
play along and do science athome, you can.
There are they're Japanesecookies in the Japanese that
they're in the shape of a koalabear, and the center of the
koala bear is chocolate goodness, chocolate filling, and the
tube they come in is hexagonalsix sides.
(56:11):
Yeah, I think so.
If you take one of those thingsand shake it like a shake
weight for about four hours,what you will have is a ball of
chocolate cookie crunch.
It's a perfect sphere.
It's amazing that it happens.
You just got to shake it like ashake weight.
So, clark, myself and let'sjust make up a name Someone
(56:32):
we'll just call them Shen Yu-san, and let's just make up a name
Someone we'll just call themShen Yu-san shook this thing for
four hours at work, takingturns, but what we got was the
perfect sphere of cookiegoodness Super cool.
I don't think we ate it becauseit looked disgusting.
I think we might have tried it.
I think I tried it.
Well, good for you.
I didn't Because I have taste.
Speaker 1 (56:57):
I'll try anything.
Why not At least one?
Speaker 2 (57:00):
time, absolutely, let's do it.
Let's get that peanut.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
Yeah, I'm really curious if you'd be able to
taste the difference.
Taste the rainbow.
Well, I hope you guys enjoyed ataste of our peanut butter On
today's episode.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
I don't like that One bit.
If you do, if you did like that, you can help us out.
By joining our discord when wedo things like play games, like
is it me or is it corporate?
You can go in and anonymouslyconfess you do forward slash,
(57:37):
confess in that channel, say hey, uh, there's a guy in our
office.
It likes to stick their mouthdirectly on the water cooler,
spout this is me or is itcorporate?
And we'll say I don't, that'sneither of you.
That's gotta get rid of thatguy.
Go in there, tell us youranonymous confessions.
We want to hear all about them.
We also play what do you mean?
A game where we describe memesof things memed in the previous
(57:59):
episode with our mouth parts.
It's a good place and forserious, we've got lots of good
conversations about mentorship,jobs, events, how to improve
yourself, marketing yourself,everything going on in that
discord.
It is our community, it's ourcorporate fam.
We love the conversationshappen there.
Get in there, even if you wantto lurk.
We will only ask if you're acop.
(58:19):
That's the only thing that yougot, cause you have to tell us
if you are, it's, it's onlylegal.
Speaker 1 (58:26):
You know.
It's fair to us to know youhave to.
You know self-identified.
Speaker 2 (58:36):
So that we understand who's in our discord.
Speaker 1 (58:37):
I just need to know, because otherwise I'll be giving
you links to the dark web.
So and we?
Speaker 2 (58:40):
will flag you also.
Speaker 1 (58:41):
You know as cop, so that way no matter who, you get
a little cop flare.
That's that way.
Speaker 2 (58:43):
Everybody knows you're a cop they give me snitch
flare, so I have to give themcop flare, you know and then we
have one channel that says notfor cops, and that is the one
you're not allowed in.
So just get ready to for thatwe're like hey, you're breaking
the law, this is not for cops.
What are you doing here?
Don't look here.
Share the pod, love the pod,give us a review on the pod.
(59:06):
If you feel like helping us outfinancially, you can buy us a
coffee.
You don't actually buy us acoffee, you're just supporting
the pod monetarily.
We'd appreciate that.
All of these things you can doby opening up your podcast
player of choice.
Looking at the show notes, thebottom is a little link tree All
the links.
Click on it, check it out,explore it.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
Enjoy it.
I think you did it no.
You did it no.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
You.
No, we did it and that'll do itfor our show.
Remember, get that peanut.
Until then.
I'm Bruce and I'm Clark andyou're on mute.
See you next, peanut.
okay are we?
Are we cool?
Um well, I I said join, nothinghappened then I said it again,
and then something happened thisis like I'm getting squirreled
in all directions today I meanwe're lucky, correct.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Well, yeah, I mean he's he.
Yeah, I mean he's a beaver, butyes, he's beavering us, or is
he a bear?
Did we decide?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
We've never come to a definitive conclusion on what
species Craig is.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Well, I was worried when you said that, that we were
going to have another J'Arcmoment.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Oh, I don't like when J'Arc shows up.
It makes me feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
It just goes from the flat smile.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
To the angry beaver he's got eyebrows.
I don't like the fact that he'sgot the eyebrows.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
You know you have the question and this is a life
question for you.
If Jark always Is there andworks consistently as a backup,
why not just make him theprimary?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
You don't want to know the answer to that question
.
No, you don't want to know theanswer to that question.
Jark's doing some stuff.
Fair enough, jark has a history, a dark, seedy past.
I mean, you don't want himrecording you.
You don't want to know whathe's doing with those recordings
.
We don't just get a copy thatwe can upload into our podcast
(01:35):
platform of choice.
Jark's doing stuff with thoserecordings that make me deeply
uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's kind of scary.
It's like the dark web for me.
I just don't want to thinkabout it.
Yeah, it's kind of.
It's kind of scary, it's likethe dark web for me.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I just don't want to think about it.
Yeah, it's better to ignore itsexistence and only call it in
here when Craig is not able torecord it.
Yeah, yeah, only when you needit, just like the dark web only
when you need it.
How often have you needed thedark web in your life?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I'll be honest, I've never stepped over the line.
Really, I was close.
There was one time it was close.
I went from Reddit somehow gotto 4chan looking for a program I
was looking for in the earlyaughts and I got to 4chan.
I knew it was like this feelsbad.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I feel like I'm doing something illegal.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I was reading the post on there and I'm like I'm
on a list for life just byvisiting this website.
Yes, yes, you are.
I still didn't even do anything, I just was there.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I just clicked the button and I saw the link and I
was like, oh, have you ever liketried messing with Tor and the
pedals and going down into thedarkness?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
You know, i've've like, I've torrented things in
my history, which is completelylegal, by the way, depending
what you're doing, yes, what youtorrent is might not.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Torrenting is legal, but what you torrent might not
be.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yes, so I've torrented things.
Legal or not legal, I'm not,not sure.
It was 15 years ago, so I haveno clue whether what I was doing
.
Who knows, who knows, and atthis point it's to the wind.
You know, but no, I've never.
You said pedals and I don'tknow what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Oh, yeah, so I mean one is not truly lived until
they've dabbled in the dark webarts.
I.
I actually had to do it for acomputer science class in
college.
Really, yeah, we had to go todark web.
It was part of likeunderstanding how the internet
works because you know like thedark web is basically just like
it's all the unsearchable pagesthat the crawlers don't get to,
(03:39):
or they're intentionally madethat way.
So we get there's a, there'sthe dark web with dark web wiki.
What clark is holding up afinger?
He's holding up a single fingerto me, like I realized I was
sitting.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I realized I was sitting, I was going up anyways
continue.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Oh, I'm gonna sit for the rest of my life, uh.
So there's the dark web wiki,which you can go to once you've
gotten on the dark web and youknow that could take you to
other pages.
And I mean, like most of I candefinitely see how you can get
to like drugs and you know lessthan less than happy type uh
(04:18):
posts.
But the forum that I ended upgoing to part of, like the dark
web wiki, which is, you you know, mostly safe stuff.
It's just a bunch of likeconspiracy nuts that like I have
to type here because I'm tooafraid of typing the Reddit
because the government mighthear what my thoughts are saying
.
Like it was like for real.
This is OK.
(04:38):
So JFK still walks among us andhe's got magnet beams in his
brain hole that he sends out totalk to Richard Nixon about the
stolen Watergate, like that'sthe kind of stuff I saw and I
was like this is great, this isfantastic so do you have to be
(05:02):
pretty technical to get there?
no, uh, it's.
It's pretty easy now, it?
It used to be a lot moredifficult.
You can just literally dark webfor dummies.
Go get firefox, download thethe the tour add-on plug-in for
firefox.
Uh, you should be using firefoxanyway.
It's the best browser and youdon't support google, I'll be
(05:23):
honest with you.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You lost me at firefox.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I'm out how dare you?
Firefox is like the lastbastion of hope we have as a
society and, and the sad thingis, is google pays for firefox
to stay around.
So google doesn't have themonopoly, which is funny.
Um, because firefox is precious, it it's perfect.
Don't touch it, don't let itdie.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
You know, google has to sell Chrome, right?
Yes, which is hilarious.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Right, and, and the great thing about Firefox is
it's not Chrome, chrome Frick.
It sucks my God Like it's.
It's like they're in acompetition with Microsoft to
see who can make the most leachyapplication.
It's between Teams and Chrome.
I don't know what's the bestway to drag your computer to a
crawl, like in the olden days.
(06:12):
It's like oh, I'm going to godownload Crysis or download.
I'm going to go grab my fourDVD set of Crysis and install it
on my PC and see how slow itruns.
Today it's like I'm just goingto get in a Teams call.
I'm install it on my pc and seehow slow it runs.
Today it's like I'm just gonnaget in a team's call.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I'm gonna see what that does like used to be the
pinnacle of graphics.
Now it's.
I'm gonna open three tabs ongoogle chrome.
Watch it happen to my ram fam I.
I got a new computer that canhandle quite a bit of compute
and it's crazy.
You like look at your activitymonitor, whatever they call it
on mac and you see the amount ofRAM that Chrome utilizes.
It's absolutely insane.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
I don't understand it at all, Like I don't know.
It is crazy.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I agree with you, side tangent someone on my
computer, someone on my computer, someone on my team I found out
uses Edge, and they're probablythe only person.
Oh yeah, I was going to saythey're probably the only person
oh yeah, I was going to sayyou're the only person I've
heard in the last five yearsthat's used edge slash internet
explore.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
If I had to choose between edge and Chrome, I'd
choose edge, okay.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Quick power rankings Chrome, firefox, duck duck go.
Have you used duck duck go orno?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
never touched it.
Okay, out of the list.
Chrome, firefox, safari, edge,firefox number one, safari
number two, edge Chrome.
Yeah, Interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Wow, oh, I didn't throw Arc on there, have you?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
used Arc.
I've not tried Arc.
I don't try a lot of browsersbecause I've got browser
supremacy with Firefox, like Idon't need other browsers.
I have the people's browser.
There is a perfect browser outthere and it's called Firefox.
And the fact and someone'sgoing to be like, well, firefox
can't do X and it's because it'sbecause it's not a Chromium
(07:58):
browser and they can't track youand get your ad information is
why Firefox can't do it.
Thank God Firefox can't do it,and get your ad information is
why Firefox can't do it.
Thank God Firefox can't do it.
Screw the apps and web-basedapplications that say I'm only
going to work in a Chromiumbrowser because I want to steal
your information.
Go pound sand.
Get Firefox.
Support an actual good app outthere.
(08:21):
Give them some ched.
Don't support this podcast.
Screw us.
Go give $10 to Firefox.
That's what.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I'm telling you to do .
I mean, I can't believe.
You just said that we need thatmoney.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I donate to Firefox and Wikipedia because I strongly
believe like they're just twoof the best things out there and
like it's people.
It's people that make thesethings happen.
It's not companies, it's people.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
It's people, it's people that make these things
happen.
It's not companies, it's people, passionate people.
The Wikipedia story is awesomebecause it's still not
non-for-profit, right Right,it's a non-profit, which is
crazy that it's still non-profit.
It is community managed.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
It's crazy.
I always loved in high school,college when people would be
like, oh, don't use Wikipedia,it's not an official source.
It's like what makes Wikipediaany different from Joe Schmoe,
who has his doctorate in Greekliterature?
It's like you know what?
I do believe that this happenedwith Theseus.
I'm going to write about it inthis scholarly journal and post
(09:19):
it.
It's like that's your opinion,man, if someone goes online and
does the same thing in Wikipedia, the only, the only difference
is they don't have theeducational authority to say so.
But because it's managed by acommunity and there's community
fact checking, wikipedia isprobably less biased and more
accurate than most scholarlyjournals that are are usually.
(09:39):
You know the thought of oneperson.
We hopefully going through likethe scientific method, but
still group think that mean thatthere's got to be something
said about the group think.
I don't know, I'm just.
I'm a huge fan of both of theseplatforms yeah, fair enough, I
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yeah, I want to fact check what you just said, not
now but at a later point,because I'm I am curious like,
with all the tools now you couldprobably stack rank Official
sources and Wikipedia and youcould probably find out which is
more accurate.
There's got to be someone who'sdone that?
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I totally agree with you.
Make sure you look ateverything from the last hundred
years compared to Wikipediatoday.
Find me one college librarythat's like, oh, this book's 10
years old.
We're going to go burn it?
No, they keep it around.
So if that's your source.
You go to.
It's 10 years old, right Like,and you can cite that in your
(10:35):
paper.
You can cite that in whateveryour research is and it's out of
date.
It's bad.
It's no good.
You get an A because you citedyour sources.
You're pulling your scholarlyarticles.
Screw the education system,Burn it to the ground, Get rid
of all of it.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
We don't need education.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
We have Wikipedia.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
This is why I want you to know.
This is why you're a personthat goes to the dark web.
You belong there.
Going back to the tangent, I'mgoing to go post my dark web
conspiracy theory.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
I never told you, so you get the plugin for Firefox.
It's called.
Tor download the Tor plugin,what you're going to do from
there.
The easiest way is to look upthe address.
You'll do this on a regularbrowser.
Look up the address for thedark web wiki.
That will then give you thepedal, the address, the long
(11:34):
address.
That is just this nasty,ginormous gooid that you put in
your Tor browser and then youcan get to the dark web wiki.
Welcome to the dark web.
It's not so seedy, is it?
Now, from the wiki you can getlinks that take you to other
dark web places and like some ofthe conspiracy forums I mean,
there's, there's lots of thingsthere it's mostly garbage, like
(11:56):
it's 99 garbage and conspiracytheory, and then it's one
percent drug deals.
So have fun.
The FBI doesn't know how tosearch it and they like to be
active there or no?
It's the NSA.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
NSA.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
NSA yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, they're the ones looking on the dark web.
They're the ones setting up allthe different things.
There's a lot of hooks.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, they do a lot of.
Let's get the right people tomeet at the right places, and
we're going to be hooking youright in, and then we're going
to be arresting you I would.
I would argue, though, that,like, as as seedy as we think
the dark web is and this is,this is, my own opinion.
I have no data to back this up,but, like I would argue, any
discord server could be asillicit, if not worse, because
(12:45):
you're just.
You're just grouping a bunch ofsickos into a single place
together, and who's going toturn them in?
Right, yeah, it's like ourdiscord.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
If you want to join, just click the link on link tree
below.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
You want to see the most seediest crap you've ever
seen in your life.
You want to scrub your eyeballswith bleach.
Join our discord.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
You're not going to believe what you see in there
Immediately, go to what do youmean, and then you'll know.
You'll know you're on the dark,you're past the dark web.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
This is worse than the dark web For the FBI agent
who has to listen to thispodcast.
Please join and let us know ifyou're a cop.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
You do have to let us know if you're a cop.
By the way, it's actually arequirement you join.
It's a requirement.
It's like, hey, you can hangout here, you can, you know,
stay anonymous.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Unless you're a cop, you have to tell us you're a cop
.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I'm gonna start addingthat to my intro.
When people join hey, nice tomeet you.
Feel free to lurk, but ifyou're a cop, you have to tell
us if you're a cop, just let usknow.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
We're not going to kick you out.
We just want to know.
We need to, we need to make itapparent.
Did I tell you I don't?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I don't know where you're going, I'm scared did I
tell you about when I was in mywork event, uh, a few weeks ago
I was working the booth andsomeone someone came to the
booth and and this, this, I meanlike he had a really nice beard
, like a full kind of tacticalbeard.
It was very well-groomed, Imean, he looked like he could
(14:11):
rip me in half with his barehands, but he's wearing a full
suit.
Good, you know, decent lookingburly man.
And he starts talking to me.
He's like oh, tell me aboutyour company.
I'm like oh, you know, I givehim the pitch, tell to me.
He's like oh, let me tell meabout your company.
I'm like, oh, you know, I givehim the pit.
Tell him we're focused onsecurity and all that.
He's like oh yeah, I'm big onsecurity too.
And he leans in.
He's like, uh, I'm a cop.
I'm like, oh well, I'm glad youtold me part of the part of the
(14:34):
experience, but then, you know,I don't know what it is about
me, uh, me and in authority, uh,which you know I have an
aversion to, but they lovetalking to me.
He ended up talking to me for15 minutes telling me how he,
when he arrests people or whenhe, not when he arrests, when he
chases people, goes after them,detains them, he will take
(14:57):
their phones from them, push theunlock button and then face
unlock it by forcing them tolook at it and then he
immediately goes in and changestheir password.
I'm like this is this?
Is this legal?
I feel like that's illegal, thatfeels very illegal.
Why are you telling me this?
Uh, and then, and then heproceeded to tell me how, in a
week's worth of time, he wouldnot be able to tell me what the
(15:20):
price of meth was, because methis just a very fluctuant drug
when it comes to its pricing.
He's like, oh meth, um, whatwas the other one?
It was, oh, fentanyl.
I couldn't tell you how muchit's worth because it literally
the price just it's.
You know it's worse than thestock market, but cocaine,
cocaine hasn't changed pricesince the 80s.
(15:42):
He's like I can tell you theprice of cocaine right now, top
of my head.
I I'm like, oh, cool, cool,thank you, I'm not asking.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
I'm not asking, but I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Do you want to see a demo of our product?
And then he's like, let me tellyou, let me tell you how you
get information on people.
I'm like, okay, cool, cool.
This is the weirdestinteraction I've ever heard of.
I go to protests on theweekends.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Okay, I don't even like have words.
You were at a tech conference.
Yes, Working your booth in thisrandom cop.
Was the cop working the?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
event, I think.
So I think he was likeundercover security.
Which is, you know, interestingbecause he becomes a cop Like
oh Cool.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Which is, you know, interesting because it becomes a
cop like oh cool I think if welook at your job title, sir,
you're missing a key part of it.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Undercover, not just walk up to people to hey, I'm a
cop I, because of my palenessand in my, my frailness, I think
I'm very, I'm very approachableand trustworthy to to those in
authority, because they knowthey can break me and I think
they also know that I'm.
They look at me and they justsee a snitch.
(16:53):
They're like oh, this guy, thisguy would turn in his neighbor.
If he thought his neighbor wasup to no good, he'd call us and
turn him in.
They're like little.
Do you know I am an anarchist.
I find all of this to be afailure.
Uh, it's weird.
It's weird, yeah, that is weird.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
That is very weird.
And what a time and what a timeto be alive.
What conversation to get intowhile you're working your
conference booth.
I'll be honest, kind of fun ifyou're thinking about the rest
of working at a conference.
I've given the pitch like ahundred times today.
Random dude comes up, give methe street prices for drugs.
Sure why not.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Why not?
Let's go down this rabbit?
I mean I talked to him for 15minutes.
I'm not going to say I didn'tenjoy the conversation, like
part of me was like I just needto be careful of what I say
because apparently, you know,sometimes I can get, I can get a
little goofy and I don't wantthat to come across as me being
serious.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
So I have to button it up.
Quinn, talking to people, andshould have leaned in.
You should have leaned in andbe like have you heard of the
dark web?
This is going to blow your mind, man.
I'm sure he has.
I'm sure he has.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I am sure he has, and I I really don't want to talk
to him about that.
I mean, like you know, I Ireally just wanted to.
I don't want to talk to anybody, so you know, it was just uh
how did we get here?
Speaker 1 (18:19):
How did this happen?
How did we get here, did we?
Do a vibe check have we done?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
an intro have we done an intro to the podcast.
Are we live?
No, let's not do it.
I'm not going to do it.
I'm not going to do it thisweek, just no intro.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
No, I don't feel like it.
Okay, I mean, I can supportthat.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, I think we should.
Okay, let's just not, it's justnot Welcome back to Corporate
Strategies, a podcast.
That could have been an email.
I'm Bruce.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
And I'm Clark and I knew that was going to happen.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
I was waiting, I knew you knew but it was a win Win
and I could have waited longer.
I could have waited and to makehim really think like, is he
going to not do it?
Is that really going to happen?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Oh, how long was that ?
19 minutes ago.
Good, I'm gonna make a note ofthat.
We've been here for that longand we're just doing a new
record.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
New record 19 calling the pod through the roof.
20 minutes of nonsense.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Intro our podcast is turned.
Our podcast is turned into asandwich of nonsense for each
side and then some valuablecontent in between, but it's
getting smaller and smallerevery time, because the intro
gets more and more nonsenseevery time.
The outro gets more and morenonsense every time.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
In the middle is just there, it's really, it's really
become an Oreo, because it usedto be an ice cream sandwich,
right, like?
You get a little bit of goof atthe beginning and a little bit
of goof at the end, a whole lotof cream in the middle.
Now let's just straight up Oreothere's 66% goof and then
there's the creamy goodness.
That's a 33%.
(19:52):
Sorry.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Sorry about it.
Maybe I'd say more of a Reese'sor an M&M.
It's like the value is justsurrounded by this core and you
don't know when you're going toget to that core.
You know you're just going tokeep chomping away, hoping like
maybe there's something good inhere, and you're going to be
scrubbing a little bit fastforwarding, hoping you find it,
(20:17):
and somehow you get to the otherside and you missed it.
You just swallowed the goodstuff.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
I'm just not.
I'm having a lot of troublevisualizing you eating an M and
M, Like I thought you just putthem in your mouth.
I thought that was the way youeat an M and M oh, little
colorful piece of candy ontongue, Chomp, chomp, swallow.
Mission accomplished.
But you're making it sound likeit's a lot more work.
And now I want to see you eatan M and M.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
All right, listen.
Okay, M&M was a bad choice.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
I think Reese's is a better descriptor of how this
podcast has become Fun size,regular size, king size, mega
size.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Oh, I didn't know they came with a mega, don't
they have like a half pound one?
That's just huge, oh do they?
Speaker 2 (21:04):
I think they do.
It's massive, that's dangerous.
I would love to just take abite of that, because think how
much peanut you're getting.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Well, that's what I'm saying is like, just like our
podcast, you're going to biteinto it and you might just get
all chocolate.
And so you're like, okay, I'mgoing to like scrub a little bit
, I'm going to like flip thisthing around and try to bite
into it from this angle allchocolate.
And then you're going to see,like I'm just going to go to the
complete opposite side.
There's got to be peanut butterin here somewhere.
All chocolate.
Only do you realize you got toget through the chocolate to get
(21:33):
to the peanut butter again Iask like, what kind of reese's
are you eating?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I, I see my hands by all of your candy analogy.
Yeah, okay, okay, mega sucks.
I'm talking.
Clark is doing a handshape thatlooks like he could be holding
a medium-sized turtle, so I'mimagining a turtle-sized Reese's
.
But even still, like thepercentage of chocolate the
peanut.
The percentage of chocolate thepeanut is not so significant
(22:00):
that if I took a big honkingbite of that thing, of that
turtle, I wouldn't be gettingsome juicy peanut Okay, so maybe
that does accurately describethis podcast then I think we're
22 minutes in our podcast isofficially become a uh, it's.
(22:24):
It's a beaver sized oreo.
Is what it is.
I mean it is.
It is huge.
Your, your hands have to bemore than shoulder width apart.
You're holding on to thisbeaver sized oreo.
You take a bite.
I just got cookie.
No, where's the cream?
Pizza sized Oreo, that's it.
Beaver size Beaver's, not agood size because there's
(22:46):
various kinds of beaver.
Yeah, Pizza sized Oreo.
I mean that's a lot of cookiebefore you get to the cream.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Well, and you don't know whenyou're going to get there.
Like you think you can justscrub to like end or the middle,
and you think you're going toget there.
But sometimes we do the intro22 minutes in and then you're
like, okay, is there any actualcontent in this, or are they
just rambling to each other for30 minutes?
That's what you don't know.
It could hit you right in thebeginning, it could hit you
right at the end.
(23:13):
You don't know what you'regetting yourself into.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
You really don't.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
I still don't.
To be quite honest, we'rerunning the show.
You know our episodes over timehave gotten longer and longer.
Sure, I would think like valuewould also increase, but I think
actually the value has alwaysstayed the same and now they're
just more just more.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, it's.
It's kind of like when theyused to have those bags of chips
, they'd be be like now with 20%more bag.
And you're like, wait a second,you didn't say chip, you said
bag.
And it's like the bag is bigger, there's more air in the bag.
Same amount of chip was alwaysthere.
And you look it's like, oh, theold bag had 22 ounces of chip.
(23:58):
New bag, which is way morewasteful in the plastic, still
has 22 ounces of chip.
New bag, which is way morewasteful than the plastic, still
has 22 ounces of chip.
Yeah, we are the chip bag ofpodcasts.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
That's who we are.
Yes, well, it's good to be here.
I'm glad you guys keep onlistening to us.
Thanks for having me, clark.
Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
All right, we'll see you guys next week.
All right, Bye.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Well, we didn't vibe check.
At this point, I think weshould just skip it.
No one cares.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, same, I have a topic for you.
Hey, what is it?
It's going to be one that Ithink lines up well with you and
with me, for multiple reasons,and with everybody listening
Whoa, it's going to blow yourmind, be careful.
It actually was inspired alittle bit off of something I
saw on LinkedIn from our friend,alex Reschrepo.
(24:49):
He posted about an event hewent to, like a training, and he
was like pumped about howawesome it was.
He was talking about theimportance of human connection,
how great the presenters were,and it got me thinking about
like how many trainings have Ibeen to that I've like walked
(25:10):
away and been like I'm fired up,I learned, I connected with
people.
It was really really great, andthe answer was not many.
Like there's like one or two inmy long corporate career where
I'm like, yeah, that wasproductive, that was a good use
of time.
I feel like that was awesomeand I thought it might be good
to talk about.
Well, what makes up a goodtraining?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
What makes up a good physical event period.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Could be that we could go that far if you'd like.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I mean let's start with training.
But I think we can Because, inall honesty, the event I went to
tremendous waste of time.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
And it hasn't always been.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
So you know it is interesting, right?
And I think the two are alittle closer linked than you
might think.
So let's start with a goodtraining.
Start with a good training.
Firstly, we're assumingphysical right.
I would say yes, I would saywe're not doing a zoom training
yeah, like teams and stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, I get a lot of trainings happen there.
Let's be honest, like 75 ofpeople aren't really paying
attention during zoom and teamstrainings and whatever.
So I think we talk like you'rephysically going to a place to
have a training of some sort.
It could be for learning,certification, kind of like a
team town hall quarterlybusiness review, whatever you
(26:26):
want to call it.
You okay bundling thosetogether.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Let's bundle, let's bundle.
Yeah, let's get a discount,yeah, why not?
I'm on safe Step one.
It needs to be a differentperspective than the one I have,
to be a different perspectivethan the one I have.
You can say something I alreadyknow, but from a different
perspective, and immediately I'mleaning in, doing the finger on
(26:53):
the upper lip.
I'm like, oh okay, interesting,I have not considered this and
that's important.
If the person giving thetraining is someone you know or
they're like someone who workswith you, chances are they're
going to be very similar to theway you think they're probably
drinking the same Kool-Aid youdrink.
You're immediately going tokind of boredom check out,
(27:15):
because I already know this,I've already heard this.
But when you bring someone inwho has a different perspective,
you're already kind of offkilter because they're they're
challenging your worldview, evenif they're saying essentially
the same thing that you've heardbefore.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
That's interesting.
I've never actually thoughtabout that.
So you're saying like as akickoff towards whatever,
whatever the topic is, if youjust say what everybody already
knows, you're, you just loseeverybody, right there, right.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Just gone, just done.
I'll give you.
I'll give you an example, right, um, let's.
Let's say you're at a training.
It's going to teach you how tobetter network with your
customers.
If the person getting upteaching the training is your
head of sales, chances arethey've been trained and have
(28:10):
been exposed to all of yourmarketing and your enablement
and most of the things that youhave already been through
because you're part of the samecompany, been through because
you're part of the same company.
If you bring in someone who isa customer who has not gone
through your training, yourrigmarole, they do like your
Kool-Aid, they drink it, theylike what you're selling.
But the customer's like here'swhy I like your network or
(28:37):
here's how I do this thing.
Suddenly you're hearing thesame thing, but you're hearing
it in a very different way.
They have a totally differentperspective than what you've
heard a thousand times before,which I think just makes that a
lot more interesting.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, I actually, I really like that.
I think when you are hosting anevent or something for people
that are familiar with you, ifyou're the one kind of leading
it, bringing someone, like yousaid, a customer or like someone
interesting ones yeah, partner,it could be a partner for your
company, it could be maybe evensomeone like famous to talk
about, like how they're kind ofrelated to this or why they're
(29:13):
interested, or just like afireside chat of you know,
whatever the topic is for thattraining.
I think that immediately grabssomeone's attention to be like
I'm going to hear something Ihaven't heard before from either
someone else that's talkingabout it or a different
perspective.
I like that.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I will say and I just caution on this because I've
worked with it when you bring insomeone famous, there is always
the chance that they have noidea what they're talking about,
and it can have the oppositeeffect, where it's like, oh
you're, you're cool, but thiswas not helpful.
Yeah, so consider that ifyou're on the setup side of
(29:52):
things.
But yes, I do agree.
I think any outsider that's nota member of your direct org
even better, a member of yourcompany but has expertise in
this thing is always going to bebetter at training than someone
local.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yeah, I like that.
So, step one, change thenarrative that is not going to
be mundane to everyone elseeither by having a different
perspective.
Yeah, new perspective, I likethat.
That's great.
Step two.
Step two Like what is another,and I don't even know if it's
steps or if it's just likepillars or things to consider.
(30:27):
I don't think these areprioritized at all because
they're coming off.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
Keep it under two hours and have breaks.
Yeah, hugely important.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, One I agree.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
We're a generation of folks that can't go five
minutes without checking ourphones.
Like, if it's an eight hourtraining, four hours up front,
you get a 30 minute lunch withthe crappiest sandwich you ever
had in your life and then we'reback in it.
All you're going to do is makeeveryone hate you everyone in
the room, the trainer, theperson who set this up.
It's going to be a hate festand your morale is going to be
(31:04):
worse afterwards and you're notgoing to take anything away.
But if it's like hey, this is atwo-hour course, we're going to
meet up in person.
It's two hours, we're going todo an hour, we're going to do a
30-minute break in the middleand then afterwards we're going
to go do top golf and thentomorrow we'll do another two
hours kind of thing.
Like, splitting things up allowsone for you to digest to.
It allows you to haveconversations with people
(31:25):
afterwards, which is reallywhere the training sets in.
It's like hey, did you knowabout this?
Like that's, that was reallyhelpful.
Putting, putting in thosebreaks and having the
opportunity to talk and shareMakes it so much more
interesting and it'll it'll sinkin better than word vomit.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I agree.
I think that's like maybe whatyou're saying too is only make
it as long as it's actuallyneeded.
There's a law called and we'vementioned on this here before
Parkinson's law.
I just looked it up, justdouble check.
I was talking about the rightone.
But it's time will essentiallyfill, or the activity will fill
the time that's actually allowed, and so if you schedule
something for four hours,whatever you're trying to do
(32:05):
will be four hours.
That's basically what the lawis saying.
So it's like if you condense it, it could actually be two,
because you put the constraintsof time and you've got to figure
out how am I going to get thisdone in two hours?
So shortening time is actuallya really good thing, not only
because of our mental capacity,but also because I think your
activities actually could be alot shorter, and eight hours is
just unnecessary.
(32:26):
And you know what happens.
The second they get into a fourhour meeting, what comes out on
the tables, the laptops,everyone's like, yep, that's
like half my day.
You expect me not to be lookingat email and my Slack channels
and all that.
Like yeah, I'm going toimmediately go to that to try
and be productive.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
I agree if, if the viewer feels like they might
miss something, because this is,this is a condensed course.
Usually I do this in four hours.
Today we're doing it in two.
It's like, oh well, I don'twant to move.
Yeah, we're gonna move throughthis.
This is gonna be a breakneckspeed.
I better not look at my laptopor phone right like there is a
little bit of mentalmanipulation that can occur
(33:02):
there.
But I think also it's justattention spans are not what
they used to be.
You have to be considerate ofthat and people's time in
general, and it needs to be themeat, all meat.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
No reese's chocolate exactly not like this podcast at
all yeah, yeah, it needs to beall peanut, no you mentioned
something as like a sub part ofwhat you just said, but I
actually think it's like atotally different pillar or
whatever we're calling these addin activity.
I think activities are soimportant to like.
You know, either get everybodyout of their seat, like doing I
(33:39):
kind of hate the icebreaker crap.
You know that you typically do.
It's like go talk and writedown three people's names and
like what their favorite coloris and like that's stupid.
But if you add something cool,like hey, we're trying to get to
Topgolf, we got two hours butthen we got to leave.
We got our appointment atTopgolf, like we're all aiming
to that and after you know,we're going to all just hang out
, eat food, hang out together,do an activity that's fun.
(34:03):
So either something you're likebookending or starting with, or
something that's actuallyengaged in, like the topic
itself.
So I remember you and I we did abig like agile transformation
from Waterfall and we went offsite.
It was definitely longer thanit needed to be, but it was like
two or three days in like ahotel setting and where we were
(34:26):
drinking Kool-Aid about agileand doing it together.
But the one thing I loved isthey forced us to do activities
around like okay, let's likepretend we're building something
, let's make up something, let'sbuild it together.
We're going to do the wholeagile process.
We're going to sprint plan.
We're going to basically breakeverything down into stories
together.
We're going to see whatchallenges come up and then at
the afternoon session we'regoing to do like a retrospective
to talk about like how thatsprint went.
(34:47):
And so we literally just madean activity where we formed into
scrum teams and we did it,which I thought was actually
really, really cool, because itkind of made us work together
and it got us out of our seatand not just listening to words,
but actually getting intowhatever we were trying to do.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
I think if you have a healthy ratio of 40% talking to
60% activity, you're doing itright.
You know, like, then you can.
Then you can get a full eighthour day of training, because I
only have to sit and listen for40% of the day.
I know that the other 60% isgoing to be spent doing, and
(35:22):
it's important because doing ishow you learn right.
Listening is great.
Yeah, you can take some notes,you can.
Oh, that's a good tip, I'll trythat out someday.
But actually going through thepractice and doing the thing
this happens a lot withtechnical trainings right,
you'll have the instructor gothrough some slides show you.
This is how you set up ourfancy schmancy widget.
(35:44):
Now let's go into your lab anddo it yourself.
The lab needs to be longer thanthe discussion and there needs
to be room for conversation.
And hey, I'm having troublewith this.
What's going on?
Like, okay, let's talk about itin the room.
Like it needs to be interactive, otherwise the learning is not
happening.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, I agree, it is interesting, like when you think
back to like high schooldepending on what, what classes
you took or even college.
Like I took auto shop and ahuge part of it was just being
in the shop doing the thingsthat we're learning, so
literally.
And what I loved about it iscause like they're pretty blue
collar guys who were teaching usbut they'd like take us in the
room and be like hey, there'slike 30 pages on this crap.
(36:24):
We're going to spend like fiveminutes.
I'm just going to tell you thebullet points and show you some
pictures.
Then we're going to go outthere and we're actually going
to do it for the next two hoursand you're going to learn how to
do it hands on and like thatprinciple, like some of the
things that captures.
You know the overall theory,how you do it, why you do it,
(36:45):
but then go actually do it.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I can't remember if I mentioned this on our previous
episode.
We talked about our educationexperience.
But one of the things I lovedabout going to Hogwarts
Wizarding School for whites is60% of your grade was
participation.
Like you, you had to show up toclass.
If you missed three classes,you failed.
And when you showed up to class, 60% of your final grade.
(37:10):
Your teacher every day wouldlike put down.
This is how much Bruceparticipated in class today and,
like you, could pass a classand never pass a test because
you participated.
But participation was basicallyI am participating in
discussion, I am offering upopinions, I'm asking questions,
I'm invested, like they'rechecking to make sure the
material.
You're not just reading thematerial, you're not just able
(37:33):
to regurgitate what you read 20minutes before class in your
cram sesh.
It's you're able to have adiscussion with teacher and your
fellow classmates about thething.
And I do attribute a lot ofthat to why I've learned as much
as I did in college, despitehating academia and that whole
system, because I knew if Iparticipated I get a good grade.
(37:54):
But it didn't work right Like,yeah, I passed and I never did
homework and it's mostly becauseI was able to listen and
participate and have thoseconversations in the classroom
setting.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
That's pretty cool.
Yeah, I agree with you.
Yeah, I think doing that theactivity is so important.
I'm good on that one.
I have another phase.
Yeah, I think, upfront, youshould outline like the
objectives and I think what Ihate about and it kind of goes
between these two but what Ihate about the all the
(38:27):
certifications and crap likethat, for, like certified scrum,
product owner, master, whateverit's like okay, all you did was
learn theory for two hours whenin reality, a lot of it's just
you need to get in there andlike work with teams and what's
more impressive is actually likebuilding things successfully
with other people.
Don't really care how you gotthere, but it's way more
impressive to see that thanyou've got 20 certifications,
(38:47):
because that just means youattended something and you got a
certification.
That's not very impressive, butactually doing the thing with
an activity is much moreimpressive.
And I think the you know thephase of like objectives is like
start off with saying hey, whenyou leave this.
Think the you know the phase oflike objectives is like start
off with saying hey, when youleave this.
This is what you should know.
You should be able to do thiswhen you leave this training or
whatever.
It's like you know.
(39:08):
Let's say, you're setting uplike a hypervisor for your
company or whatever.
So it's like you should be ableto set up VMware and be able to
configure servers and do allthis stuff.
It's like you should be able todo this once you leave this
event.
That's what success looks like,and so being upfront at the
very beginning, to say this iswhat you're going to leave and
know how to do, I think is superimportant.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I like that too, because they've actually said
that humans are a little bitpredisposed to liking spoilers.
If a movie gets spoiled for you, you're far more likely to
enjoy it than if it isn't, whichis weird.
Yeah, they did.
They did a whole study on that.
I personally love surprises, soI don't understand, but the
(39:47):
research shows people likeknowing what's going to happen,
so just going off that alone, Ithink you're right Setting an
agenda, setting an outcome,specifically saying, if you go
through this and you do theactivities and you participate,
you will be able to sell thisproduct.
You'll be able to do thistechnical thing.
(40:10):
Like I like that because itstarts with a, a winner's
mindset, right.
And like you're basicallysaying like everyone in this
room is capable of doing thisthing, we're going to get you
all there today.
Like it is a positive note roomis capable of doing this thing,
we're going to get you allthere today.
Like it is a positive note andI think it just it sets the
brain in motion to to achievesomething.
Versus today we're going tolearn about computers like, oh,
(40:32):
I knew that, but I guess we'restarting there.
Huh, yeah, Versus today when youleave this course, you're going
to be able to code your owngame that you can sell for
millions of dollars.
Like you know, it's just likesetting the expectation.
That's huge.
I love that, clark Goodthinking yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, I think that's one of the most important things
.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
And yeah, start with the book.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
It's starting.
It's beginning with, like, theend in mind, if that makes sense
of like setting those clearexpectations.
And I can't remember where Igot this from, but it's like
reverse pyramid style.
It's like, rather than like,tell the story to get to the
thing, like you said, it's liketell them the ending and then
get to the ending by the contextthat everybody can see.
The vision of this is wherewe're heading.
This is what I'm going to beable to do, and then you can
(41:16):
like go through the steps toactually do the thing, rather
than getting all the way to theend, and then big reveal you
know how to code games.
It's like wait, I was trying todo that the whole time.
I didn't even know.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
And you know what else it.
Also, when you set expectationslike that and you give them a
very clear you will be able todo X by the end of this thing,
you don't get disappointment, Imean, unless you don't do the
thing.
But you could say, today we'regoing to learn about computers
and then all you learn is how tocheck your email in Google
Chrome and you walk away fromthat course Like I didn't learn
(41:47):
a damn thing about computers.
I learned that this, thisinstructor likes a really crappy
browser and only knows how tocheck his email.
And like you don't have a badexperience.
Versus if they said that fromthe onset, we're like they
didn't lie.
They did say we were going tolearn how to check our email on
Google Chrome.
Like having the expectationmeet the reality.
I think that's very importantfrom a satisfaction perspective,
(42:07):
Cause even if I didn'tparticularly learn anything in
the course, I can't give them abad review because they told me
what I was going to get out ofit, Right, Like did this course
meet your expectation?
Well, yeah, they said they weregoing to teach me this.
They taught me that.
So yeah, it's good.
But if it's misleading, youdone messed up.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I also like the um and maybe these go together is
set the expectation for whoshould be there.
Yeah, Like hey.
This, this course is built forpeople who are gonna what like
daughter shop thing it's like,who are going to have to get
hands on.
You're going to have to getdirty, you're going to have to
change some oil.
If you don't want to do that,don't stick around like.
(42:47):
This is what this course isgoing to be.
That I.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
I'm so glad you brought that up, Clark.
That is one of my biggest beefsin trainings is the mandatory
everyone must attend training.
It's like I already know thisinside.
I passed the test last year.
Why am I doing this again?
Like what's the point?
Well, it's mandatory, Everyonehas to do it.
Like that's a problem.
(43:12):
If everyone has to do it, theneveryone's wasting their time,
because I'm guaranteeing I'm notthe only person here that knows
this and I think that putspeople in a real bad mood too.
And it also tells me that youare not capable or caring enough
to say I value and respect thetime and money we spend on all
(43:33):
of our employees to say, hey, ifthey passed this last year,
they should not need tore-enroll and do it again.
Like we value them more thanthat versus all right, everyone
gets to go through thismandatory training.
That if you didn't have to sitthrough an hour long video, you
could just mindlessly clickthrough the test and pass, Cause
(43:55):
you know at the back of yourhand, One is insulting and hurts
morale.
The other basically says, yeah,you don't have to do this, you
already passed.
Like oh, you respect my time,you care about me?
Wow, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Appreciate that.
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
I agree If you make it an elective, then you can
actually see who cares aboutyour company.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
That's true.
See who shows up?
Yeah, some of those things arejust a test of like, who's
actually going to be interested?
Who cares?
Yeah, who actually cares?
I like that.
How do you, how do you getpeople who are not going to
contribute out?
Like, that's what I'm trying toget to a little bit too.
Is you?
You know, you've been part oflike groups that you're like, oh
(44:35):
crap, like this person kind ofsucks.
They're not even payingattention to the activity.
I'm gonna have to do themajority of the group project
here.
Like that is like the worstthing for a training when you
get stuck with the group thatyou're like, oh man, these
people suck you know, it's evenworse than that having me in
your training, because this is,this is a true story from a few
(44:57):
months ago.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
If you invite me to your training and I am the
expert and turns out you are not, I'm going to make you look bad
in front of everybody andyou're going to end your
training 30 minutes earlybecause you invited Bruce and
this happens and I'm like well,I was forced to be here, so
(45:19):
thanks for this.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Are you?
talking about like the hostDidn't know oh that's rough,
yeah, and because not goodexpectations were set.
It wasn't done the right way,it was very much a.
Not good expectations were set,it wasn't done the right way,
it was very much a.
Bruce is going to have to stepin and ask some hard questions
here, because Bruce doesn't knowwhy he's been here for for the
(45:43):
period of time he has, and thetraining ended up ending early
because Bruce derailed the wholething.
Uh so so it's a thing you gottabe careful and be careful who
you invite to right.
Like I am, I am veryanti-authoritarian as, as made
as made known multiple times onthis podcast, I don't like
(46:03):
authority.
I'm anti-academia.
The way I like to learn is bybeing hands-on.
I want to actually go and dothe thing.
Give me, give me a guide.
You can give me an instructorif I respect them and and let me
go try the thing.
But do not stick me in a chairand force me in front of a
screen for eight hours and say,hey, you're going to learn this.
(46:24):
It's like I already know this.
So what are we doing here?
Like that, I'm not alone.
Like I'm not a I'm not aone-off force of nature.
There are lots of people likeme out there.
I would I would actually sayAlex Estrepo is also one of
these people very smart, muchsmarter than I am, and can
derail a training if you want itto, because he knows things.
(46:44):
And it's disrespectful for theorganization to basically say
this person needs to be forcedthrough this activity, even
though they could teach thecourse if they want to.
So, like you, gotta be careful,because there are there are
people like us who will say,well, if I'm being forced to do
this, then I'm also going tomess this thing up.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
And then you I think youmentioned this on a previous
episode, but I love it it's likein a meeting I think that that
was our context for the lasttime Like if you're in a meeting
, like who's going to throw awrench in everything, or like
call things out and like that'sthe type of you will get those
people, and the presenter has acouple options.
(47:24):
It's like either they take thathead on and like try to wrangle
it and if they're reallycompetent, they probably will
and be like wait, no, but you'rethinking about this wrong,
think about it this way.
And when they do that, it'slike okay, now they're proving
to you like no, we're about tolook at it from a different
angle, so hold on a second,we're going to get there.
And that's kind of like settingyou back to be like don't worry
(47:44):
, bruce, we're going to getthere, but I need you to think
differently than you're thinkingnow.
And that's going to try to gethim out of this, or I'm going to
end it early.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Yeah, and that's exactly what I wanted.
I wanted it Like.
It was like being slightlyfacetious Always I am a
facetious person.
But what I have loved a realanswer to the questions I was
asking and like the examples Iwas bringing up.
I would have loved that becausethen it would have proven, like
one I don't know everything toput me in my place, know
everything and you put me in myplace.
Like I don't mind being put inmy place, I can be taught, I can
(48:20):
learn.
And two, it's saying well, nowI know how to do this.
Like thank you, you've helpedme, you've trained me.
Like what a great experience.
But it's that.
Right back to point one.
This is why you have to bringin outside perspectives who are
experts in the thing, because ifyou're just, if you're saying,
hey, your peer is teaching thistraining, it's like my peer
doesn't know as much as I do.
This is going to be a problem,like it's not going to go well.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Yeah, a hundred percent agree, I love it.
Any other tips?
No, like thinking about, likeall the things we just talked
about.
It's like yeah bring a change ofperspective, set objectives and
expectations for like what'sgoing to be.
You know the outcome.
What are you going to walk awaywith?
(49:02):
What are the actual, likehands-on, physical things we're
going to do?
Tell people, hey, you should behere If you want to do these
things.
If you don't get out, includean activity where it's like
theoretical stuff, talking stufflike that.
Like 40% the 60% shouldactually be the learning and
doing and then really shortenthat time to only what's needed
and include those activities.
(49:23):
And when you do that, I thinkyou have a super productive
session that is going to bevaluable to everyone and
everyone's going to walk awaybeing like that was awesome,
like I'm ready, I know thisthing, I can do this thing,
whatever the objective was.
Speaker 2 (49:35):
Remember how I said, this is not just applicable to
training.
Yeah, literally all of thosethings is true for any physical
event.
Yeah, does not matter what itis.
And I like, as someone who,like, is involved with setting
up and managing physical events,you have to do that, you have
to be considerate of all ofthose things.
Otherwise, you're just going toupset your attendees and
(49:58):
they're gonna think, well, thisis a waste of time, I'm not
gonna do this next year andyou're you're not gonna continue
to do those kind of events longterm, because no one's gonna
want to come do them absolutely.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
the last one that I always hear is like they ask for
feedback on the sessions, oofand and I'll be honest, another
mistake.
That's a huge mistake.
Every single time, it's neverbeen productive, and sometimes
they'll even show it on thescreen after They'll be like
this is what people are voting.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Oh my gosh, and then it's just embarrassing.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
It's like, oh God, 60% of the people did not find
this productive.
That was pointless to show onthe screen after.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
That's really when you don't want me in the room
because it's going to be very.
You're going to have one personwho scores just like.
Oh wow, usually people don'tselect strongly, disagree for
everything.
Who did this?
Me?
That was me.
I'll tell you why that was meand because you asked, let me
run you through all of mythoughts yeah yeah, it's, it's
just not good.
Don't do that.
If if you want feedback,firstly, be prepared to be upset
(51:02):
and secondly, don't make itpublic afterwards everyone did a
great job, everyone had goodthings to say, even if it's not
true, and move on.
Uh, yeah, completely agree yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
This is a fun one.
I know you had no idea this wasgoing to come in, but I saw it
and I was thinking about earlierand I was thinking back to like
, yeah, what are the productiveones that I've had?
I've even hosted some where Idefinitely think I could have
done better and I think I'velike done a decent job like
constraining it, includingactivity, but I don't think I
did a great job on like whatsuccess looks like and what the
(51:38):
objective at the end is to beable to do, and so I think I can
take a lot of these learnings,too for the next in-person type
of thing that I do, which I willbe doing one in about a month
for my team.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
I do a lot of trainings, a lot of
presentations, and my goal isalways get in, get out as
quickly as humanly possible andtry and engage the audience when
I can.
I consider it a personalfailure if no one asks a
question or if no oneparticipates with my activities.
(52:11):
Like that is just like Bruce,you failed, you failed and in
many times it's because thepeople suck, but it's also
because I failed.
So two things can be true atthe same time.
Speaker 1 (52:19):
This one, I think, comes naturally for you and for
me, but I don't, and maybe itunderlies all this is like the
engagement factor, like don'tjust state a fact.
Like if you're telling peopleabout your team like, let's say,
like product management, Icould very much just say like
your team.
Like, let's say, like productmanagement, I could very much
just say like, hey, productmanagement is a growing industry
.
This is why it's important X, yand Z.
Instead, I'd like to ask, likea provocative question that
(52:41):
forces engagement Raise yourhand if you've ever dealt with a
crappy product manager.
Don't you dare raise your hand.
I'm looking at you.
His hand is high in the air, ashigh as it would go.
Like that forces engagementright.
To be like okay, like, tell melike what you think are the
qualities of a good productmanager.
And like, even if you say, hey,tell me a horror story working
(53:04):
with product manager, like thatis going to get people engaged.
And be like this is awesome,like we're just riffing now and
then you can kind of geteverybody's attention to get
hooked on the topic ahead.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
The best part about that, too, as an instructor, is
you're doing less work.
Yeah, put it on them.
You're literally letting theclass teach the class, which is
great If you can get that tohappen.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
Absolutely.
I love it, when um everything Ido.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
I do a session every month for our new hires.
It's called the History of DataProtection.
It's 30 minutes.
I try to make it fun.
I try to put some jokes in theslides, but I love it when I
have people in the class thatknow more than me, because
that's where I learn and thatactually improves my sessions.
I'll bring up things peoplehave brought up in the past and
(53:53):
that's always good.
Speaker 1 (53:54):
Yeah, that's awesome.
I love it.
I think we crushed it.
Speaker 2 (53:59):
See, there's the peanut butter.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
The peanut butter tastes so good when you find it.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Oh, it's so good.
I do want a pizza-sized Reese'scup.
Same Dude.
They're so good, they're sogood I want one right now.
Have you ever had the?
They make the jar of the actualpeanut.
They call it peanut butter.
But it's not that.
Let's be real, oh you'retalking about like the Nutella
(54:25):
but the jar of like thespreadable?
Yeah, they have, like the jarof the Reese's peanut, but it's
not, it's not.
Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
No, like I want a jar of whatever that center gunk is
, I just want a spoon right inmy mouth.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
You know what I'm saying, okay, so this is maybe
the next live stream we have todo.
We have to find the mega,biggest Reese's cup we can find
and then what we also have to dois we have to scrape the peanut
butter out of Reese's Somehowseparate the chocolate from the
peanut butter and then we got tomelt it down and do a taste
test side by side and you tellwhich one was encased in
chocolate and which one justcame out of the jar.
Speaker 2 (55:03):
I like this activity.
Do you remember back in thegood old days, the golden age of
Big Corp, when we used to dolike food-based activities?
Like, were you there when weshook the box of panda cookies
and it turned into a ball?
Yes, yes, you know what I'mtalking about.
(55:23):
You know what I'm talking aboutwait.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
How did we shake it though, because I remember it
came out.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
I have a video.
I have a video of it actuallywhy I why I asked if you were
there?
Because you were there.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Well, I think either I was, I remember you did one, I
think before I joined, and Idid not participate in that one,
but then we did another one.
After that we were like hey, weshould do this again, and I
think I was there for that one.
Speaker 2 (55:49):
Yeah, yeah, it's so much fun For those who want to
play along and do science athome, you can.
There are they're Japanesecookies in the Japanese that
they're in the shape of a koalabear, and the center of the
koala bear is chocolate goodness, chocolate filling, and the
tube they come in is hexagonalsix sides.
(56:11):
Yeah, I think so.
If you take one of those thingsand shake it like a shake
weight for about four hours,what you will have is a ball of
chocolate cookie crunch.
It's a perfect sphere.
It's amazing that it happens.
You just got to shake it like ashake weight.
So, clark, myself and let'sjust make up a name Someone
(56:32):
we'll just call them Shen Yu-san, and let's just make up a name
Someone we'll just call themShen Yu-san shook this thing for
four hours at work, takingturns, but what we got was the
perfect sphere of cookiegoodness Super cool.
I don't think we ate it becauseit looked disgusting.
I think we might have tried it.
I think I tried it.
Well, good for you.
I didn't Because I have taste.
Speaker 1 (56:57):
I'll try anything.
Why not At least one?
Speaker 2 (57:00):
time, absolutely, let's do it.
Let's get that peanut.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
Yeah, I'm really curious if you'd be able to
taste the difference.
Taste the rainbow.
Well, I hope you guys enjoyed ataste of our peanut butter On
today's episode.
Speaker 2 (57:16):
I don't like that One bit.
If you do, if you did like that, you can help us out.
By joining our discord when wedo things like play games, like
is it me or is it corporate?
You can go in and anonymouslyconfess you do forward slash,
(57:37):
confess in that channel, say hey, uh, there's a guy in our
office.
It likes to stick their mouthdirectly on the water cooler,
spout this is me or is itcorporate?
And we'll say I don't, that'sneither of you.
That's gotta get rid of thatguy.
Go in there, tell us youranonymous confessions.
We want to hear all about them.
We also play what do you mean?
A game where we describe memesof things memed in the previous
(57:59):
episode with our mouth parts.
It's a good place and forserious, we've got lots of good
conversations about mentorship,jobs, events, how to improve
yourself, marketing yourself,everything going on in that
discord.
It is our community, it's ourcorporate fam.
We love the conversationshappen there.
Get in there, even if you wantto lurk.
We will only ask if you're acop.
(58:19):
That's the only thing that yougot, cause you have to tell us
if you are, it's, it's onlylegal.
Speaker 1 (58:26):
You know.
It's fair to us to know youhave to.
You know self-identified.
Speaker 2 (58:36):
So that we understand who's in our discord.
Speaker 1 (58:37):
I just need to know, because otherwise I'll be giving
you links to the dark web.
So and we?
Speaker 2 (58:40):
will flag you also.
Speaker 1 (58:41):
You know as cop, so that way no matter who, you get
a little cop flare.
That's that way.
Speaker 2 (58:43):
Everybody knows you're a cop they give me snitch
flare, so I have to give themcop flare, you know and then we
have one channel that says notfor cops, and that is the one
you're not allowed in.
So just get ready to for thatwe're like hey, you're breaking
the law, this is not for cops.
What are you doing here?
Don't look here.
Share the pod, love the pod,give us a review on the pod.
(59:06):
If you feel like helping us outfinancially, you can buy us a
coffee.
You don't actually buy us acoffee, you're just supporting
the pod monetarily.
We'd appreciate that.
All of these things you can doby opening up your podcast
player of choice.
Looking at the show notes, thebottom is a little link tree All
the links.
Click on it, check it out,explore it.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
Enjoy it.
I think you did it no.
You did it no.
Speaker 2 (59:33):
You.
No, we did it and that'll do itfor our show.
Remember, get that peanut.
Until then.
I'm Bruce and I'm Clark andyou're on mute.
See you next, peanut.
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