June 9, 2025 • 35 mins
Bruce and Clark explore the delicate challenge of addressing personal issues like hygiene and verbal habits in professional settings while maintaining respect and professional boundaries.
• A Reddit post about a manager telling an intern they smell bad while simultaneously offering them a permanent position
• How managers can deliver difficult personal feedback constructively and with appropriate timing
• The importance of directness when addressing personal issues that affect workplace dynamics
• Balancing personal expression and professionalism when it comes to speech patterns and workplace behavior
• Managing the "gray area" of workplace etiquette that falls outside of HR violations
• Handling third-party complaints about behavior you haven't personally witnessed
• The difference between warranted feedback vs. personal preferences or biases
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
No, what are you saying?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
If it goes, it goes.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
If it shows, it shows , it goes it goes, it goes, it
goes, it goes, it goes, it goes,it goes, good turn.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I don't know if you can hear that at all.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
No, it cut most of it out.
That was a Death Grips versefor all my Death Grips fans out
there.
I know most of the corporatestrategy.
Discord is a Death Grips fansout there.
I know most of the corporatestrategy.
Discord is a Death Grips fan.
So they really appreciated myrendition of that sweet verse
from the song Guillotine.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
What if I am not a Death Grips fan?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, what's wrong with you?
What's wrong with you?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Mostly ignorance.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Doubt wrong with you, mostly ignorance.
Um doubt, doubt I would.
I would bet most people don'tknow who death grips are, which
is the cry and shame, but alsomaybe not.
So you know it's.
It's not everyone's cup of tea,that's all I'll say.
It's like uh, it's almost it'scup of tea, that's all I'll say.
It's almost what I woulddescribe as like screeching
electronica mixed with screamingrap.
You know, like it's not aflavor for the little ears, as
(01:19):
they would say.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I was about to say, not something you can play in
the minivan.
Huh, yeah, it's one of those.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It it like it sounds upon first listen, kind of like
all of your appliances arebreaking at the same time, with
a man screaming in thebackground, things that you
can't understand because thelyrics are so muddled in his
scream.
But phenomenal music.
Just love it.
Love it to death.
The the money store, one of thegreatest albums ever made.
(01:47):
Just non-stop bangers, track oftrack.
Highly recommend.
I'm gonna have to check thisout.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
So what's for I?
I think I would be hard pressedto not have listened to this
with you at some point in ourtime together.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You have and you've purged it from your memory.
I definitely used to listen tothis in the carpool days.
So it happened, you heard it.
Okay, all right.
Well, I'm going to look it up.
Money Score came out, I think,like right at the end of our
carpool days, yeah, so, yeah, Imean you got in on the cusp.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I want you to tell the people is it Death Grips
with a, Z or an?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
S.
No, it's with an S Death Gripsoh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm looking at their cover for their Apple Music
thing right now and it'sterrifying.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Some of their covers are wildly inappropriate.
Oh, that's all.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I'll say, yeah, I see a few.
This is not what I wasexpecting.
Oh wow, the Money Store.
That is a very inappropriateone.
Kids don't look this up.
Parents with kids don't lookthis up.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Parents with kids, avoid the death grips.
Wait until they're 18.
Then they can appreciate thetrue master tracks brought by MC
Rye, excited to give it a try.
Main singer Nice, it's goodstuff.
It's good stuff and this is theCorporate Strategy Music Pod.
Bring in album recommendationsdirectly to your ears.
(03:18):
I'm Bruce and I'm Clark.
Didn't see that one coming, didyou?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I did.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Where are you going?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I feel like at some point we just become like our
whole entire lives are justspin-off podcasts from this
podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yes, that reminds me I'm supposed to.
I was like supposed to on thelast episode.
Shout out, I'm on anotherpodcast with my wife now.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
You've got a podcast, I've got another podcast with
my wife.
Now you got a podcast, I've gotanother.
I never, I never knew.
So wait, hold on a second.
You're, you're cheating on mewith your wife.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yes, correct, that's absolutely correct.
Uh, it's about a topic that Idon't think you'd be able to
keep up with me on, which isvideo games and media.
Uh, if you, if you like metalking about video games and
media, if you like me talkingabout video games and media, we
have a whole podcast now on herYouTube channel and apparently
Spotify coming soon.
I don't.
(04:14):
It's KiteTales is the channel.
I don't know what.
The KiteTales and Flex.
I think the podcast is justKiteTales and Flex.
I go by many monikers out there, so you know, if you like that,
tune in.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
That's cool Nice.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
I'm going to check it out.
Very cool yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I definitely, I definitely could not hang and I
would never be on that podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
So it makes sense.
Yeah, I think the you know, oneday I'm going to drag you
through.
When you're, when you're ableto show your face, I'm going you
through uh, some game streamswhich I think will be a really
fun time.
I agree, I don't.
I don't think you know the kindof corporate strategy games
that exist out there that Iwould love to see you suffer
through I'm a little baby cherubwaiting for.
(04:58):
It's funny.
It's funny, little cherub.
Uh, we met because and like, Itook an interest in you because
you like Zelda.
Yep, it's like, oh, you likeZelda, you must be cool.
Now it turns out I was wrong.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
You were very wrong and I weaseled my way into your
friendship.
And look, it wasn't aboutgaming all along.
That's the miracle of Christmas.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
It was like oh, you like Zelda because there's
fishing in that game and youactually like fishing, fishing.
Oh, I see, you tricked me, youtricked me clock.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
You didn't see clark the cherub bringing that on, did
you?
Now?
Speaker 1 (05:35):
you know, little cherub clark yeah, you're here,
something wild, yeah, please.
My brother-in-law had a childwell, he didn't have a child.
Sister-in-law had a child Well,he didn't have a child.
Sister-in-law had the child.
But my family, extended family,had a child.
You know what they named?
Their son Cherub.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
No.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Clark, little baby Clark, that's awesome, I'm so-.
There are two of you out therenow.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I'm so honored that they would name their child
after me.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, wow, I remember we did have Keelan on the
podcast a long time ago talkingabout unions.
She was so impressed by you.
Name the child after you.
Congratulations, reallyincredible.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I just am so touched.
Like anything, anytime anybodyhas a baby and they name them
after me.
This is not the first time.
I just feel so blessed.
It's the fifth time.
I love to have babies namedafter me and to kiss the little
cherubs on the face.
Yeah, these babies are.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Kiss them on the fist On the face, right on the
forehead.
You grab their little arm,little little hand, contracts
into a fist and it's like giveme little keys, little keys on
the beast hey regardless of what, whether it's fist or forehead,
one of the two.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Either way, I feel very honored.
So thank you, keelan, for youknow naming your child after me.
I can't wait to get you a gift,which is the corporate strategy
baby onesie oh, that would beperfect to get a little baby
Clark and a baby onesie.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
We're going to make this magic happen.
I think we should do it, weshould log into that store and
see if it still works.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I think we need to get one of the names.
We'll update it.
I think we need to get anupdated design with a little
name tag that says Hi, I'm, andthen we'll put clark on it oh,
that's cute.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
That's cute.
Yes, you can do that with ai,right like you can knock that
out in five minutes for sure.
Yeah, no doubt figure so muchseemed like it was in your realm
of realm of uh possibility takethe logo shove a hi, my name is
on there.
Get it ready for a baby.
That's all you need.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
That's all you need easy enough.
That's it.
Well, how are you doing vibecheck?
Quick vibe check.
How are your feet?
Speaker 1 (07:48):
still healing.
Uh, this is only a few daysafter we recorded the previous
podcast, even though it's sevendays after, uh, for you, the
listener.
So I'm still in the healingphase, but much better.
Every day a little bit more, alittle bit less pain, a little
bit more mobility.
I think think tomorrow marksthe seventh day of the procedure
, and then I can start sleepingwithout band-aids on my toes at
(08:11):
night.
So exciting progress, yeah.
My right foot is like a hundredpercent better.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
The left foot is still healing, but there was a
lot more work done on the left.
One Huge milestone coming up,so proud of you.
How's your?
No more band?
How is your baby toe?
Yeah, uh, update.
I'm looking at now.
It's still a little purple, butgood news is, didn't break it.
I overreacted.
I thought, dude, I thought Ifractured it.
It was black and blue for liketwo days afterwards, but now I
(08:39):
can walk normally.
It's all good.
It's a little bit of pain if Ikick something on accident, but
it's good.
I think I'm recovered, fullyhealed.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I'm 100% Good.
I'm really glad to hear that.
I'm happy one of us had ahealing journey in their life.
How often do you kick things byaccident?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
When you're a reckless cherub like me, and
hopefully we didn't justcompletely disconnect.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
When you're a reckless cherub like me.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Okay good, when you're a reckless cherub like me
, you sometimes walk around likea bull in a china shop and you
just kick things.
It happens.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Now, when you say you kick them, are you accidentally
swinging your foot into it orare you winding up like a soccer
ball and just you know I'maccidentally kicking?
This Depends, depends that's it, that's all I'm gonna say okay,
cool, I have lost visualcontact to clark, so I I just
cannot tell uh, when when he'sdone versus when he's gone.
(09:35):
Hey, clark, yeah, hey, hey, I'mgonna do a couple check-ins
with you.
Uh, are you ready to talk aboutour topic for the day?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
yeah, we probably should.
You know, given, uh, theinternet latency that is
happening around me right now,my internet provider, for
whatever reason.
It was so funny.
My wife and I were talking like, yeah, they've actually been
like really consistent lately.
I remember when they used tojust go in and out for the year
Actually she's a teacher, soshe's on summer the second that
(10:09):
happened.
They are so flaky, in and out,in and out, and now that's
what's happening to us right now.
So, for the sake of time, I saywe do it and jump right into
this topic.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Let's do it.
So, one of the I kept thecareer guidance.
I read it open and I looked atit this morning and my gosh such
a good topic that I think wecould actually dedicate an
entire episode to, because it'snot just this post I think we
can solve, for I think it's abigger thing in general and it's
something we've never talkedabout on this podcast before.
(10:39):
Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I mean the fact that we found something we haven't
talked about 165 episodes ispretty impressive.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So I am pumped, I know Okay, so check this out the
post.
My manager told me I smell badand everyone talks about it.
Then hired me.
I literally don't know how toproceed and I'm wondering if
quitting is the right option.
Now here's the context.
I'm an intern today.
My manager sat down, told me I'mlacking hygiene.
Several people have complainedabout my smell and people are
(11:06):
talking about it.
She also told me that I'm thebest intern she's ever had, that
I clearly very smart, dedicated, 100% fit for a new opening
that came up.
That role was mine, if I wantedit, but the only thing she was
concerned about was my stench.
I was so in shock so I justsaid I was open to it,
congratulated me for getting therole We'd start the proceedings
and reminded me that I need totake better care of my hygiene
and then joked that I would haveto hug her every morning so
(11:27):
she'd make sure I'm good.
I guess I should be happy aboutit.
I got the job, but I'm totallyhumiliated Just spoke.
She spoke with me before aboutit and I thought I'd solved it,
but I guess not.
I don't smell, which I guess isthe problem.
Boyfriend tells me that I smellnice.
I feel like I want to hide in aplace where everyone sees me as
one who stinks.
I feel like I want to throwmyself out of a bridge and never
(11:49):
show up to work again.
But I don't have another joband I lined up and I've already
accepted this one.
I think this is the lowest I'veever felt.
Now I I want to talk about thispost specifically, but I also
want to talk about, like,dealing with these kind of
issues that don't necessarilyfall under work, like people who
cook popcorn in the microwaveand burn it.
(12:10):
You know food that smells bad,when people bring in things from
the outside that aren't exactlyHR violations but are just also
a little bit uncouth.
How do you handle it Now, clark?
What's your immediate reactionto this story?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Well, one.
I was really confused on howyou're going to take this into a
bigger topic, but now, nowwe're here, we're here.
Also, start at the bottom.
Now we're here.
You know, it's interestingbecause usually, in my
experience, people who you needto tell this, typically don't
know that they, like they'rethey're pretty unaware, right,
(12:46):
they've never thought about itbefore, and so, like this is
like news to them whenever ithappens, like wait, what?
Like I didn't even know, or youknow, it's like the first time
they're ever being told.
So this one's interestingbecause they they've been told
by multiple people that they'refine, you know, the boyfriend
included, unless all thosepeople are like lying to them.
Like, do you think somethingweird is here with, like, the
(13:07):
manager, where the manager justhas this?
You know, people smell thingsdifferent.
Do you think the manager justsmells like their cologne or
their perfume and like that justsmells wrong to them.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I mean, the manager said they heard it from other
co-workers, so unless themanager lied, I think this
person probably does have asmell about them.
Um, as a person, I I I sweat alot, so therefore I smell a lot.
I have to be very cautious andcareful about my stank, cause I
(13:39):
don't want that getting onothers.
You know.
Like it's just, I try to bevery self-aware about that.
In general, I feel like thisperson is trying, but maybe
they're missing somethingspecific, like it could be bad
breath, it could be, you know,like maybe they don't wash their
hair enough, I don't know.
They're like there's lots ofreasons this person could stink.
(14:02):
I think the fact that themanager brought it up like right
, as they're giving them a jobis kind of expert level managing
, because they clearly like thisperson.
This person is clearly talented, but they do have something
about them that they can fixthat maybe they don't realize.
And what better way to tellsomeone with the good news of
we'd like to give you a job?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, yeah, it is a perfect time to tell them.
But I guess it's like like inthis.
In this sense, this person'slike wanting to not show up to
work.
Obviously they accept theposition right thing to do.
They feel embarrassed, right,they do.
They feel really embarrassed.
But I agree with you, it's likethat is a great time to tell
them this, instead of an awkwardmanagerial meeting where you're
like I got three complaintsthis week.
(14:43):
I really got to address this.
Now you have to come up withways to address this and you
have no like occasion oranything to say nicely, you're
just like.
I only have one topic today yousmell awful.
Like to your point.
This is expert level managingof saying like we're hiring you
and what I like about the waythat it was approached.
It wasn't like a but thing, itwas like but I need to take care
(15:05):
of this.
It was like listen, you'regreat, we want to hire you to do
really great work.
You know the one thing of anarea of improvement is you know
interpersonal, you knowunderstanding of how you I don't
even know how to like say thisof how you smell around others.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I mean, I feel like the more direct you are in this
case, the better.
Like this is one of thosethings where directness if
anything, the boss is probably alittle too light.
Like I would.
I would try and figure it outright.
Like if it's a, if it's like ananimal smell, then you'd be
like well, I understand why yourboyfriend probably doesn't
smell it, because you live in ahouse with animals and it's on
your clothes.
Uh, you know, maybe just do anextra, you know, run the laundry
(15:45):
or something like that, whenyou, you wash your clothes and
keep those separate from.
Like it's probably somethingthey're both blind to as a smell
that's attached them itself, tothem.
Like I feel like you can helpdiagnose this problem as the
manager and give them somereally good feedback that will
help them, because here's thething.
Like I know, this person feelsbad right now.
In a quarter, no one's gonnaremember this, no one's going to
(16:07):
remember this.
No one's going to be like, hey,remember when, remember when
Clark used to smell bad.
Like people don't hold ontothat kind of stuff, and if they
do, they're really sucky peopleand they're like that's the kind
of people you want to avoid atall costs.
But like you try and forgetthat kind of thing because it's
it's really outside of yourcontrol or it's something that
you're missing and it's likethat's, that's something to be
(16:28):
embarrassed about.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
This isn't a correct.
I think there's a, there's afine line in the diagnosing and
I don't even think it's a maintopic, but I think this is
important to call out from whatyou just said to your point.
It's like maybe at home you'refine and maybe bike or jogging
to work and then you're allsweaty.
I that's an okay thing to bringup.
It's like I know you go to workout at lunch but everybody says
you know when you come back youdo smell.
(16:49):
So maybe try taking a showerright after that before you
start working.
Same if you were biking to workin the morning and that's
probably why your partner's notsmelling it, because it's, you
know, after you or before youdid the activity.
But I think the careful thing,if you're a manager like if you
don't definitively havesomething that's non, I don't
know argumentative or non, youknow if it's not theoretical and
(17:14):
hypothesizing, the one thingyou want to watch out for is
like if you're like, yeah, maybeif you wore some deodorant and
you know, maybe they are adifferent race or ethnicity than
you, and like, maybe they don'treligion and they don't believe
in some of that stuff, nowyou're starting to cross the
lines and like HRr territory soI think you've got to be really
careful well and I think that'swhere the broader topic comes in
(17:36):
too is, like you know, ifsomeone does practice some kind
of religion, that does you knowdifferent kind of prayer or you
know different kind of behaviorthan what you're used to.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Like it can be very difficult, especially when it
creates that awkwardness toapproach that person and talk to
them about it right, Like yourun a risk of being an HR
violation yourself by bringingit up Like you don't want to be.
Like correct.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Exactly that's the word.
Intolerant, I think that's theword.
It's like you've got to and you, I think you said something
really important.
It's like that it's only yourperspective and if it's not like
a holistic truth, you ride yourbike into work and you have a
whole entire sweat stain downyour back like nobody can argue
that right.
It's like take a shower, man.
There's visual evidence.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
But if there's not like that definitive human being
nature, and you don't know,don't do it.
Like if you're questioning itone bit.
Don't even do it.
Maybe go talk to your HRpartners to figure it out, so
you have a better way toapproach it.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, I mean, mean it's tough.
It's tough in general anytimeit's a it's not like a character
well, even character flaws,right, like people have verbal
tics, people say things that canreally start to grind on your
gears when you hear it.
You pick up like you gotta becareful of what I say sometimes
(19:03):
because I can implicate myself.
But like, let's just say youknow there's an individual who
starts every sentence with theword my dudes.
Right, like hypothetically,this person's just like my dudes
, let's, let's go do this mydudes.
Come on, let's go, my dudes.
Like one that, even thoughthat's part of like their
character flaw, it's probablyworth having a conversation with
(19:24):
them, because that can come off, is a little bit insensitive,
especially if there are not justmen or dudes present.
Right, especially, you know,like be considerate of everyone
else around you and two, it justyou.
You lose a little bit of likethe, the professionalismism
about yourself when you havefiller words, especially when
(19:44):
you rely on them a lot.
A good mentor and manager wouldtry and help pull you out of
that and it's going to be a veryhard conversation to have
saying hey, hey, buddy, do youlike to say the word my dudes?
A lot I've noticed and I thinkyou could actually benefit by
trying to work that out of yourvocabulary and use it less and
like it's hard right, causethat's an opinion.
(20:06):
I might be the only one whothinks that my dudes thing is a
problem.
You know, I know that's notalways the case, but it could be
like.
How do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, that's a good point for that one one to your
point way earlier.
It's like, maybe it's aboutframing.
You know, the job offer waslike the perfect time to bring
up.
It's like a compliment sandwichthing.
It's like you bring it in withgood news.
That way it's easier to take.
Maybe something like this youknow, if someone were to use the
my Dudes Everywhere and it'slike, hey, I've been focusing,
you know, on your careerdevelopment and thinking about,
(20:38):
like how you continue to grow.
And one thing that's stuck outto me as I've started putting
more attention in this is youreally need to focus on using
more professional and inclusivelanguage when you're
communicating with your teamsand like that can go into.
Then get specific.
It's like you know,specifically, I hear you say my
dudes 10 times every meeting andmaybe use something like team
(21:03):
or hey, everyone like somethingmore inclusive but also more
professional, like that's reallygoing to help in your
communication.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Well, and I think the funny thing is is you can have
a personality, you can have abrand and a style.
You know, if you listen to thepodcast, you hear how I talk.
I'm very much this way inmeetings, in person, at work,
but I've tried to always becognizant of the professional
line.
I walk like if I say what's up,fam, when I start a team
(21:31):
meeting, I know that thataudience who is receiving the
fam is one that will receive itpositively.
And if I'm in a culture wherethat's not appropriate one, I
gotta get out of that culture.
So I'm I'm evaluating my packin that regard.
But two, it's it's also alittle troublesome.
It's like, well, fam is a veryyou know, it's an open word,
(21:51):
right, like I'm just, I'm justbeing friendly, I'm being
bringing a little levity intothis thing, and if it's not
appropriate one, I would hopethat I know that situation.
And two, that I'm aware of it.
So, right, it's.
Everything's such a delicatebalancing act at work your smell
, your speech, your appearance,uh, you know if, if you show up
(22:13):
to work and there's food in yourbeard, or if your hair looks
just like, uh, you know, aseagull's nest every day, that's
probably also a problem, likepeople will look at you and they
might be revulsed by what theysee.
That's not a good thing to havehappen to you.
But again, it's really hard todo.
It Like how do you tell someonehey, uh, you know, I think if
(22:34):
you combed your hair or use alittle bit of styling product,
people might feel morecomfortable around.
Like you can't say that, soit's like how do you deal with
that?
Speaker 2 (22:44):
You know?
Yeah, absolutely.
And to your point, yeah, it's.
Maybe it is a little aboutframing it's, you know saying,
hey, we have a work code ofconduct and you know a dress
code, and part of that is makingsure you look clean and get up
and make sure that you, you know, are able to not show up in
sweatpants every day, and thoseare the things that it's like.
(23:04):
To your point, it's difficultbecause, inherently, as people,
we have opinions, we havemindsets and we experience
things differently, and so Ithink that's why it's so like I
think Danny Yonkers would saythis too that's why managing is
so difficult, because you haveto keep in mind so many
different perspectives andsituations to deal with, and
(23:28):
it's not, it's not point blank,or you know black and white.
It's very gray of how you shoulddeal with it, and I think
that's where you have to be so,so careful.
There are some things that youjust can't tolerate.
You know, and I think that'swhere you have to be so, so
careful, there are some thingsthat you just can't tolerate.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
You know and I think that's where those things are
are very black and white don'trealize it.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
As a manager, you can't tolerate it.
And it's like those scenariosare very different, because it's
like, okay, you're hurtingsomebody, you're creating a
toxic workplace, and thosethings have to be dealt with
immediately and very direct.
And maybe it's because it kindof follows the same rule of it's
like very, it's very indistinct, indistinct, I don't even know
what the right word.
It's very, what's the rightword?
(24:22):
Non-argumentative, like youknow, when you see it, you know
it and everybody can feel it.
But I think people can perceivethings differently.
Like I know a lot of people whohave, who are, you know, really
smart, but they're a littleabrasive in the way that they
work, and like they've had tolearn to tone those things back
and figure out how tocommunicate with others.
But it's hard because theydon't see it Like when you talk
(24:46):
to them specifically, they'relike, oh, I don't really know
what you're talking about.
Like, really, I did that, andit's like yeah, yeah, you did
that.
And here was the meeting whereit occurred, and this is how it
made some people feel.
And I think people who areself-aware and have goodwill to
them will be open to thatfeedback.
What you've got to look out foris people who aren't or they're
(25:06):
like who said that Give me aname.
The second you see that thatperson needs to be off the team
immediately, because that willonly continue with that behavior
and that will be a toxicculture that's building.
But if they're open to it andthey're like, oh my goodness,
like are you serious, I had noidea I was doing that Like
please give me anything you cando so I avoid doing that in the
future and I'll be moreconscious of it, it's like, okay
(25:26):
, this person clearly justdidn't see it and they are just
trying to do their best.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Some people can be very, very sensitive to feedback
, especially when it comes toother people, which is like
that's the hard part.
Right Is when you as a managermight not have a problem with
the behavior, but someone elsedoes, and then it's your
obligation and responsibility tosay hey, you know, dave, listen
up.
People don't like the fact thatyou know you come off so direct
(25:53):
, like, and it's hard becauseyou'd be like well, I really
like Dave's directness with.
For me that really gels with myCAC.
I never have to wonder is Davebeing honest with me?
But, like some people might findand we saw this a lot in
engineering it was like superabrasive, right.
Like he'll just tell you yeah,this code's no good, your code's
bad, you need to go back andrefactor it.
Here's where you can fix thingsLike it's like which.
(26:18):
Again, this is a very Americanproblem.
You don't really have thisproblem in Europe because people
are just direct there, butdirectness can be seen as a
negative quirk to have inAmerican corporate structure.
It's very frustrating and as amanager sometimes you have to go
in and curb that, even thoughyou might not have a problem
with it.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, I even think something important for a
manager is whoever's giving thefeedback, make sure it's
warranted feedback, because youshouldn't just immediately act
on any feedback that someoneshares.
You should gain your ownperspective and monitor.
Like your job as a manager isto monitor the situation.
Like next time, if you gotfeedback that something's
(26:58):
happening in meeting, you shouldswoop into the meeting Like hey
guys, I'm just here to listenand observe and see how things
are going.
Like, if you aren't, if it'snot definitively black and white
, I have evidence.
You need to get your ownopinion and be observant and
then share that feedback.
But sometimes the feedback isnot warranted and you have to
give coaching.
The other way to be like hey,susie, it's okay that jim likes
(27:22):
to eat his rice while he'ssitting at his desk.
Like, if you're not a fan ofhim eating his rice, then during
your lunch period feel free toseparate yourself from the
situation and go sit in thebreak room.
But there's nothing againstpolicy that says jim can't eat
his rice at his desk.
So I love like.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Those are the things.
Yeah, you're almost reversed toknowing feedback back on them.
It's like hey, I understand youhave a problem with this, but
listen, there's nothing againstcorporate policy that says they
can't do this, and if you havean issue with it, then you need
to remove yourself from thesituation, right?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Exactly.
It's a really good response.
If someone approaches you withunwarranted feedback or
something that doesn't makesense, that's also definitive of
a toxic culture.
Starting by that person Likethat means that they are going
to be more than likely difficultto work with and difficult, you
know.
Being a team player, I thinkI've seen that from time to time
(28:13):
where it's like this personjust complains like everything's
a complaint, I'm working toofast, I'm working too slow, I'm
not getting them what they need.
It's like they're going to notbe conducive to the team
environment you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
The one that I've seen.
That's a little dangerous iswhen someone approaches you
perhaps like your end, likemaybe you were in the meeting
where the thing happened or youknow the full story.
So now you have to basicallysay, actually the feedback you
(28:49):
were given might be a littlebias or, you know, unfairly
tilted towards my staff.
Here's what I know, here's whatI know, here's what I've seen
and here's some feedback aboutthis person.
And you know, like reverse Uno,it can get rough, Like it can
get really rough when there'slike a third party involved on
(29:10):
the feedback chain.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's where you have
to use the observing nature andeven put it back on that person,
be like, hey, why don't we bothgo and like observe the
meetings, or just to not causealarms?
You know, I'll step into ameeting one time.
You know, next week you stepinto the meeting and we'll both
kind of gain our differentperspectives and then we'll come
(29:32):
back together and we'll we'llcompare notes on on what
happened.
The hard part to your point islike if things happen that are
situational and you're gettingthird hand feedback from the
situation, it's like, well, ithappened in this meeting and it
wasn't recorded and it was onlybetween three people and I was
one of them.
(29:53):
It's like OK, now it's like who,whose voice do I listen to?
Do I bring it up with thisperson and say I got this
feedback?
Like those are the hardestthings for me as a manager is
it's like, yeah, this happenedin this one-off meeting.
It was just us two.
And it's like how do you, howdo you handle that?
And the way I've given feedback,because I've had this situation
happen where someone approachedme and they're like hey, I just
(30:13):
no-transcript, you've got toseparate yourself and come and
(30:46):
talk to me and we'll work itthrough together.
Or if it's a meeting, it's likeI encourage you to invite other
people to the meeting that arerelevant to the conversation, so
it's not just you and thisperson working together.
That way, hopefully, you feelsafer because you're with your
team and you're not inone-on-one situations with this
person.
And then telling them hey, I'mthere.
You know, let's talk about thisevery week.
(31:06):
If you need me to attendmeetings, I'm more than happy to
.
I'll join in with you and Ithink that's the best advice you
can give.
It's like, if it's one-on-oneand there's no way to know what
happened, you've got to findways, as as a manager, to give
them the advice to keep thissafe space and then, ultimately,
give you time to assess thesituation.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
I love that.
I think that's a really goodway to handle that situation.
Specifically, a thoughtoccurred to me when you were
talking through that, of abehavior that we might have
talked about on this podcastbefore, but I don't remember it,
and now I'm kind of shockedthat we haven't, and I think we
(31:44):
could probably actually dedicatean entire episode to this
behavior.
So, or two, rather than goinginto it now and to save your
internet some bandwidth, I'mjust going to tease next week's
topic.
It's going to be a heater.
Ooh, ooh, mm.
I can smell it.
(32:04):
It's getting spicy.
You can smell it.
It's because of what you said.
It's specifically because ofwhat you said.
I was like, oh my gosh, like weneed to talk about this
specific thing that people doand how to handle it, both as I
sees as managers, as those whomight've said the word oh, I
like that, or the phrase.
I should say it's a phrase thatpeople use to give a little
(32:25):
tease to the topic we're goingto have to hit this next week.
This is an episode worthy.
We can't do this justice, right?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
now my brain is not fully functioning and also my
internet is crap right now, sohopefully this has been coherent
.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
But I heard what you said and I'm excited.
I'm excited for it.
Good, I got most of what yousaid, so we're good on our end.
Uh, and I think on that note,we can, we can go ahead and shut
it down.
Uh, clark's internet's dying,it's.
It's not a short one by anymeans, but it's not as long as
some of the previous ones.
So we'll make up for it nextweek with a heater topic, I
promise.
Until then, join the discordthe way you do that.
(33:02):
Click on your show notes, gointo the link tree, click join
the discord.
It's our community.
We play games in there Likewhat do you mean?
Is it me or is it corporate?
And we just have a great groupof people to talk about jobs,
job experience, networking,marketing yourself.
There's so many topics in there, so many channels to get
involved in.
Join, even if you just want tolurk.
Please share the podcast withyour friends, neighbors and
(33:22):
family, share it with yourenemies, share it with anyone
who works in corp.
Uh, word of mouth is how wegrow.
We have no natural marketing,even though one of us is a
professional marketer.
And if you're interested ingetting your own baby onesie in
that link tree in the show notes.
There is a store you can go toto buy corporate strategy swag
and other fun things.
We profit off of it None.
So if you want to help us outfinancially, you can buy us a
(33:45):
coffee through that link as well.
I think that'll do it for thisweek's episode.
So until next time, circle thewagon.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
It could be I got a second one for you to hit me up.
Go burn some popcorn in thegroup public dining area, just
for the whole office to smelljust do it.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Burn that popcorn, don't go back for the bag.
Let it, let it be on fire,leave it, just let that
smoldering corn.
Just smoke it up.
And until you do, I'm bruce andI'm clark and you're on mute.
We will see you next week.
No, what are you saying?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
If it goes, it goes.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
If it shows, it shows , it goes it goes, it goes, it
goes, it goes, it goes, it goes,it goes, good turn.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I don't know if you can hear that at all.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
No, it cut most of it out.
That was a Death Grips versefor all my Death Grips fans out
there.
I know most of the corporatestrategy.
Discord is a Death Grips fansout there.
I know most of the corporatestrategy.
Discord is a Death Grips fan.
So they really appreciated myrendition of that sweet verse
from the song Guillotine.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
What if I am not a Death Grips fan?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, what's wrong with you?
What's wrong with you?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Mostly ignorance.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Doubt wrong with you, mostly ignorance.
Um doubt, doubt I would.
I would bet most people don'tknow who death grips are, which
is the cry and shame, but alsomaybe not.
So you know it's.
It's not everyone's cup of tea,that's all I'll say.
It's like uh, it's almost it'scup of tea, that's all I'll say.
It's almost what I woulddescribe as like screeching
electronica mixed with screamingrap.
You know, like it's not aflavor for the little ears, as
(01:19):
they would say.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I was about to say, not something you can play in
the minivan.
Huh, yeah, it's one of those.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
It it like it sounds upon first listen, kind of like
all of your appliances arebreaking at the same time, with
a man screaming in thebackground, things that you
can't understand because thelyrics are so muddled in his
scream.
But phenomenal music.
Just love it.
Love it to death.
The the money store, one of thegreatest albums ever made.
(01:47):
Just non-stop bangers, track oftrack.
Highly recommend.
I'm gonna have to check thisout.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
So what's for I?
I think I would be hard pressedto not have listened to this
with you at some point in ourtime together.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You have and you've purged it from your memory.
I definitely used to listen tothis in the carpool days.
So it happened, you heard it.
Okay, all right.
Well, I'm going to look it up.
Money Score came out, I think,like right at the end of our
carpool days, yeah, so, yeah, Imean you got in on the cusp.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I want you to tell the people is it Death Grips
with a, Z or an?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
S.
No, it's with an S Death Gripsoh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm looking at their cover for their Apple Music
thing right now and it'sterrifying.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Some of their covers are wildly inappropriate.
Oh, that's all.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I'll say, yeah, I see a few.
This is not what I wasexpecting.
Oh wow, the Money Store.
That is a very inappropriateone.
Kids don't look this up.
Parents with kids don't lookthis up.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Parents with kids, avoid the death grips.
Wait until they're 18.
Then they can appreciate thetrue master tracks brought by MC
Rye, excited to give it a try.
Main singer Nice, it's goodstuff.
It's good stuff and this is theCorporate Strategy Music Pod.
Bring in album recommendationsdirectly to your ears.
(03:18):
I'm Bruce and I'm Clark.
Didn't see that one coming, didyou?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I did.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Where are you going?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I feel like at some point we just become like our
whole entire lives are justspin-off podcasts from this
podcast.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yes, that reminds me I'm supposed to.
I was like supposed to on thelast episode.
Shout out, I'm on anotherpodcast with my wife now.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
You've got a podcast, I've got another podcast with
my wife.
Now you got a podcast, I've gotanother.
I never, I never knew.
So wait, hold on a second.
You're, you're cheating on mewith your wife.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yes, correct, that's absolutely correct.
Uh, it's about a topic that Idon't think you'd be able to
keep up with me on, which isvideo games and media.
Uh, if you, if you like metalking about video games and
media, if you like me talkingabout video games and media, we
have a whole podcast now on herYouTube channel and apparently
Spotify coming soon.
I don't.
(04:14):
It's KiteTales is the channel.
I don't know what.
The KiteTales and Flex.
I think the podcast is justKiteTales and Flex.
I go by many monikers out there, so you know, if you like that,
tune in.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
That's cool Nice.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
I'm going to check it out.
Very cool yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I definitely, I definitely could not hang and I
would never be on that podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
So it makes sense.
Yeah, I think the you know, oneday I'm going to drag you
through.
When you're, when you're ableto show your face, I'm going you
through uh, some game streamswhich I think will be a really
fun time.
I agree, I don't.
I don't think you know the kindof corporate strategy games
that exist out there that Iwould love to see you suffer
through I'm a little baby cherubwaiting for.
(04:58):
It's funny.
It's funny, little cherub.
Uh, we met because and like, Itook an interest in you because
you like Zelda.
Yep, it's like, oh, you likeZelda, you must be cool.
Now it turns out I was wrong.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
You were very wrong and I weaseled my way into your
friendship.
And look, it wasn't aboutgaming all along.
That's the miracle of Christmas.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
It was like oh, you like Zelda because there's
fishing in that game and youactually like fishing, fishing.
Oh, I see, you tricked me, youtricked me clock.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
You didn't see clark the cherub bringing that on, did
you?
Now?
Speaker 1 (05:35):
you know, little cherub clark yeah, you're here,
something wild, yeah, please.
My brother-in-law had a childwell, he didn't have a child.
Sister-in-law had a child Well,he didn't have a child.
Sister-in-law had the child.
But my family, extended family,had a child.
You know what they named?
Their son Cherub.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
No.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Clark, little baby Clark, that's awesome, I'm so-.
There are two of you out therenow.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I'm so honored that they would name their child
after me.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, wow, I remember we did have Keelan on the
podcast a long time ago talkingabout unions.
She was so impressed by you.
Name the child after you.
Congratulations, reallyincredible.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
I just am so touched.
Like anything, anytime anybodyhas a baby and they name them
after me.
This is not the first time.
I just feel so blessed.
It's the fifth time.
I love to have babies namedafter me and to kiss the little
cherubs on the face.
Yeah, these babies are.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Kiss them on the fist On the face, right on the
forehead.
You grab their little arm,little little hand, contracts
into a fist and it's like giveme little keys, little keys on
the beast hey regardless of what, whether it's fist or forehead,
one of the two.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Either way, I feel very honored.
So thank you, keelan, for youknow naming your child after me.
I can't wait to get you a gift,which is the corporate strategy
baby onesie oh, that would beperfect to get a little baby
Clark and a baby onesie.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
We're going to make this magic happen.
I think we should do it, weshould log into that store and
see if it still works.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I think we need to get one of the names.
We'll update it.
I think we need to get anupdated design with a little
name tag that says Hi, I'm, andthen we'll put clark on it oh,
that's cute.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
That's cute.
Yes, you can do that with ai,right like you can knock that
out in five minutes for sure.
Yeah, no doubt figure so muchseemed like it was in your realm
of realm of uh possibility takethe logo shove a hi, my name is
on there.
Get it ready for a baby.
That's all you need.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
That's all you need easy enough.
That's it.
Well, how are you doing vibecheck?
Quick vibe check.
How are your feet?
Speaker 1 (07:48):
still healing.
Uh, this is only a few daysafter we recorded the previous
podcast, even though it's sevendays after, uh, for you, the
listener.
So I'm still in the healingphase, but much better.
Every day a little bit more, alittle bit less pain, a little
bit more mobility.
I think think tomorrow marksthe seventh day of the procedure
, and then I can start sleepingwithout band-aids on my toes at
(08:11):
night.
So exciting progress, yeah.
My right foot is like a hundredpercent better.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
The left foot is still healing, but there was a
lot more work done on the left.
One Huge milestone coming up,so proud of you.
How's your?
No more band?
How is your baby toe?
Yeah, uh, update.
I'm looking at now.
It's still a little purple, butgood news is, didn't break it.
I overreacted.
I thought, dude, I thought Ifractured it.
It was black and blue for liketwo days afterwards, but now I
(08:39):
can walk normally.
It's all good.
It's a little bit of pain if Ikick something on accident, but
it's good.
I think I'm recovered, fullyhealed.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I'm 100% Good.
I'm really glad to hear that.
I'm happy one of us had ahealing journey in their life.
How often do you kick things byaccident?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
When you're a reckless cherub like me, and
hopefully we didn't justcompletely disconnect.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
When you're a reckless cherub like me.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Okay good, when you're a reckless cherub like me
, you sometimes walk around likea bull in a china shop and you
just kick things.
It happens.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Now, when you say you kick them, are you accidentally
swinging your foot into it orare you winding up like a soccer
ball and just you know I'maccidentally kicking?
This Depends, depends that's it, that's all I'm gonna say okay,
cool, I have lost visualcontact to clark, so I I just
cannot tell uh, when when he'sdone versus when he's gone.
(09:35):
Hey, clark, yeah, hey, hey, I'mgonna do a couple check-ins
with you.
Uh, are you ready to talk aboutour topic for the day?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
yeah, we probably should.
You know, given, uh, theinternet latency that is
happening around me right now,my internet provider, for
whatever reason.
It was so funny.
My wife and I were talking like, yeah, they've actually been
like really consistent lately.
I remember when they used tojust go in and out for the year
Actually she's a teacher, soshe's on summer the second that
(10:09):
happened.
They are so flaky, in and out,in and out, and now that's
what's happening to us right now.
So, for the sake of time, I saywe do it and jump right into
this topic.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Let's do it.
So, one of the I kept thecareer guidance.
I read it open and I looked atit this morning and my gosh such
a good topic that I think wecould actually dedicate an
entire episode to, because it'snot just this post I think we
can solve, for I think it's abigger thing in general and it's
something we've never talkedabout on this podcast before.
(10:39):
Are you ready?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I mean the fact that we found something we haven't
talked about 165 episodes ispretty impressive.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
So I am pumped, I know Okay, so check this out the
post.
My manager told me I smell badand everyone talks about it.
Then hired me.
I literally don't know how toproceed and I'm wondering if
quitting is the right option.
Now here's the context.
I'm an intern today.
My manager sat down, told me I'mlacking hygiene.
Several people have complainedabout my smell and people are
(11:06):
talking about it.
She also told me that I'm thebest intern she's ever had, that
I clearly very smart, dedicated, 100% fit for a new opening
that came up.
That role was mine, if I wantedit, but the only thing she was
concerned about was my stench.
I was so in shock so I justsaid I was open to it,
congratulated me for getting therole We'd start the proceedings
and reminded me that I need totake better care of my hygiene
and then joked that I would haveto hug her every morning so
(11:27):
she'd make sure I'm good.
I guess I should be happy aboutit.
I got the job, but I'm totallyhumiliated Just spoke.
She spoke with me before aboutit and I thought I'd solved it,
but I guess not.
I don't smell, which I guess isthe problem.
Boyfriend tells me that I smellnice.
I feel like I want to hide in aplace where everyone sees me as
one who stinks.
I feel like I want to throwmyself out of a bridge and never
(11:49):
show up to work again.
But I don't have another joband I lined up and I've already
accepted this one.
I think this is the lowest I'veever felt.
Now I I want to talk about thispost specifically, but I also
want to talk about, like,dealing with these kind of
issues that don't necessarilyfall under work, like people who
cook popcorn in the microwaveand burn it.
(12:10):
You know food that smells bad,when people bring in things from
the outside that aren't exactlyHR violations but are just also
a little bit uncouth.
How do you handle it Now, clark?
What's your immediate reactionto this story?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Well, one.
I was really confused on howyou're going to take this into a
bigger topic, but now, nowwe're here, we're here.
Also, start at the bottom.
Now we're here.
You know, it's interestingbecause usually, in my
experience, people who you needto tell this, typically don't
know that they, like they'rethey're pretty unaware, right,
(12:46):
they've never thought about itbefore, and so, like this is
like news to them whenever ithappens, like wait, what?
Like I didn't even know, or youknow, it's like the first time
they're ever being told.
So this one's interestingbecause they they've been told
by multiple people that they'refine, you know, the boyfriend
included, unless all thosepeople are like lying to them.
Like, do you think somethingweird is here with, like, the
(13:07):
manager, where the manager justhas this?
You know, people smell thingsdifferent.
Do you think the manager justsmells like their cologne or
their perfume and like that justsmells wrong to them.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I mean, the manager said they heard it from other
co-workers, so unless themanager lied, I think this
person probably does have asmell about them.
Um, as a person, I I I sweat alot, so therefore I smell a lot.
I have to be very cautious andcareful about my stank, cause I
(13:39):
don't want that getting onothers.
You know.
Like it's just, I try to bevery self-aware about that.
In general, I feel like thisperson is trying, but maybe
they're missing somethingspecific, like it could be bad
breath, it could be, you know,like maybe they don't wash their
hair enough, I don't know.
They're like there's lots ofreasons this person could stink.
(14:02):
I think the fact that themanager brought it up like right
, as they're giving them a jobis kind of expert level managing
, because they clearly like thisperson.
This person is clearly talented, but they do have something
about them that they can fixthat maybe they don't realize.
And what better way to tellsomeone with the good news of
we'd like to give you a job?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, yeah, it is a perfect time to tell them.
But I guess it's like like inthis.
In this sense, this person'slike wanting to not show up to
work.
Obviously they accept theposition right thing to do.
They feel embarrassed, right,they do.
They feel really embarrassed.
But I agree with you, it's likethat is a great time to tell
them this, instead of an awkwardmanagerial meeting where you're
like I got three complaintsthis week.
(14:43):
I really got to address this.
Now you have to come up withways to address this and you
have no like occasion oranything to say nicely, you're
just like.
I only have one topic today yousmell awful.
Like to your point.
This is expert level managingof saying like we're hiring you
and what I like about the waythat it was approached.
It wasn't like a but thing, itwas like but I need to take care
(15:05):
of this.
It was like listen, you'regreat, we want to hire you to do
really great work.
You know the one thing of anarea of improvement is you know
interpersonal, you knowunderstanding of how you I don't
even know how to like say thisof how you smell around others.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I mean, I feel like the more direct you are in this
case, the better.
Like this is one of thosethings where directness if
anything, the boss is probably alittle too light.
Like I would.
I would try and figure it outright.
Like if it's a, if it's like ananimal smell, then you'd be
like well, I understand why yourboyfriend probably doesn't
smell it, because you live in ahouse with animals and it's on
your clothes.
Uh, you know, maybe just do anextra, you know, run the laundry
(15:45):
or something like that, whenyou, you wash your clothes and
keep those separate from.
Like it's probably somethingthey're both blind to as a smell
that's attached them itself, tothem.
Like I feel like you can helpdiagnose this problem as the
manager and give them somereally good feedback that will
help them, because here's thething.
Like I know, this person feelsbad right now.
In a quarter, no one's gonnaremember this, no one's going to
(16:07):
remember this.
No one's going to be like, hey,remember when, remember when
Clark used to smell bad.
Like people don't hold ontothat kind of stuff, and if they
do, they're really sucky peopleand they're like that's the kind
of people you want to avoid atall costs.
But like you try and forgetthat kind of thing because it's
it's really outside of yourcontrol or it's something that
you're missing and it's likethat's, that's something to be
(16:28):
embarrassed about.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
This isn't a correct.
I think there's a, there's afine line in the diagnosing and
I don't even think it's a maintopic, but I think this is
important to call out from whatyou just said to your point.
It's like maybe at home you'refine and maybe bike or jogging
to work and then you're allsweaty.
I that's an okay thing to bringup.
It's like I know you go to workout at lunch but everybody says
you know when you come back youdo smell.
(16:49):
So maybe try taking a showerright after that before you
start working.
Same if you were biking to workin the morning and that's
probably why your partner's notsmelling it, because it's, you
know, after you or before youdid the activity.
But I think the careful thing,if you're a manager like if you
don't definitively havesomething that's non, I don't
know argumentative or non, youknow if it's not theoretical and
(17:14):
hypothesizing, the one thingyou want to watch out for is
like if you're like, yeah, maybeif you wore some deodorant and
you know, maybe they are adifferent race or ethnicity than
you, and like, maybe they don'treligion and they don't believe
in some of that stuff, nowyou're starting to cross the
lines and like HRr territory soI think you've got to be really
careful well and I think that'swhere the broader topic comes in
(17:36):
too is, like you know, ifsomeone does practice some kind
of religion, that does you knowdifferent kind of prayer or you
know different kind of behaviorthan what you're used to.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Like it can be very difficult, especially when it
creates that awkwardness toapproach that person and talk to
them about it right, Like yourun a risk of being an HR
violation yourself by bringingit up Like you don't want to be.
Like correct.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Exactly that's the word.
Intolerant, I think that's theword.
It's like you've got to and you, I think you said something
really important.
It's like that it's only yourperspective and if it's not like
a holistic truth, you ride yourbike into work and you have a
whole entire sweat stain downyour back like nobody can argue
that right.
It's like take a shower, man.
There's visual evidence.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
But if there's not like that definitive human being
nature, and you don't know,don't do it.
Like if you're questioning itone bit.
Don't even do it.
Maybe go talk to your HRpartners to figure it out, so
you have a better way toapproach it.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, I mean, mean it's tough.
It's tough in general anytimeit's a it's not like a character
well, even character flaws,right, like people have verbal
tics, people say things that canreally start to grind on your
gears when you hear it.
You pick up like you gotta becareful of what I say sometimes
(19:03):
because I can implicate myself.
But like, let's just say youknow there's an individual who
starts every sentence with theword my dudes.
Right, like hypothetically,this person's just like my dudes
, let's, let's go do this mydudes.
Come on, let's go, my dudes.
Like one that, even thoughthat's part of like their
character flaw, it's probablyworth having a conversation with
(19:24):
them, because that can come off, is a little bit insensitive,
especially if there are not justmen or dudes present.
Right, especially, you know,like be considerate of everyone
else around you and two, it justyou.
You lose a little bit of likethe, the professionalismism
about yourself when you havefiller words, especially when
(19:44):
you rely on them a lot.
A good mentor and manager wouldtry and help pull you out of
that and it's going to be a veryhard conversation to have
saying hey, hey, buddy, do youlike to say the word my dudes?
A lot I've noticed and I thinkyou could actually benefit by
trying to work that out of yourvocabulary and use it less and
like it's hard right, causethat's an opinion.
(20:06):
I might be the only one whothinks that my dudes thing is a
problem.
You know, I know that's notalways the case, but it could be
like.
How do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah, that's a good point for that one one to your
point way earlier.
It's like, maybe it's aboutframing.
You know, the job offer waslike the perfect time to bring
up.
It's like a compliment sandwichthing.
It's like you bring it in withgood news.
That way it's easier to take.
Maybe something like this youknow, if someone were to use the
my Dudes Everywhere and it'slike, hey, I've been focusing,
you know, on your careerdevelopment and thinking about,
(20:38):
like how you continue to grow.
And one thing that's stuck outto me as I've started putting
more attention in this is youreally need to focus on using
more professional and inclusivelanguage when you're
communicating with your teamsand like that can go into.
Then get specific.
It's like you know,specifically, I hear you say my
dudes 10 times every meeting andmaybe use something like team
(21:03):
or hey, everyone like somethingmore inclusive but also more
professional, like that's reallygoing to help in your
communication.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Well, and I think the funny thing is is you can have
a personality, you can have abrand and a style.
You know, if you listen to thepodcast, you hear how I talk.
I'm very much this way inmeetings, in person, at work,
but I've tried to always becognizant of the professional
line.
I walk like if I say what's up,fam, when I start a team
(21:31):
meeting, I know that thataudience who is receiving the
fam is one that will receive itpositively.
And if I'm in a culture wherethat's not appropriate one, I
gotta get out of that culture.
So I'm I'm evaluating my packin that regard.
But two, it's it's also alittle troublesome.
It's like, well, fam is a veryyou know, it's an open word,
(21:51):
right, like I'm just, I'm justbeing friendly, I'm being
bringing a little levity intothis thing, and if it's not
appropriate one, I would hopethat I know that situation.
And two, that I'm aware of it.
So, right, it's.
Everything's such a delicatebalancing act at work your smell
, your speech, your appearance,uh, you know if, if you show up
(22:13):
to work and there's food in yourbeard, or if your hair looks
just like, uh, you know, aseagull's nest every day, that's
probably also a problem, likepeople will look at you and they
might be revulsed by what theysee.
That's not a good thing to havehappen to you.
But again, it's really hard todo.
It Like how do you tell someonehey, uh, you know, I think if
(22:34):
you combed your hair or use alittle bit of styling product,
people might feel morecomfortable around.
Like you can't say that, soit's like how do you deal with
that?
Speaker 2 (22:44):
You know?
Yeah, absolutely.
And to your point, yeah, it's.
Maybe it is a little aboutframing it's, you know saying,
hey, we have a work code ofconduct and you know a dress
code, and part of that is makingsure you look clean and get up
and make sure that you, you know, are able to not show up in
sweatpants every day, and thoseare the things that it's like.
(23:04):
To your point, it's difficultbecause, inherently, as people,
we have opinions, we havemindsets and we experience
things differently, and so Ithink that's why it's so like I
think Danny Yonkers would saythis too that's why managing is
so difficult, because you haveto keep in mind so many
different perspectives andsituations to deal with, and
(23:28):
it's not, it's not point blank,or you know black and white.
It's very gray of how you shoulddeal with it, and I think
that's where you have to be so,so careful.
There are some things that youjust can't tolerate.
You know, and I think that'swhere you have to be so, so
careful, there are some thingsthat you just can't tolerate.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
You know and I think that's where those things are
are very black and white don'trealize it.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
As a manager, you can't tolerate it.
And it's like those scenariosare very different, because it's
like, okay, you're hurtingsomebody, you're creating a
toxic workplace, and thosethings have to be dealt with
immediately and very direct.
And maybe it's because it kindof follows the same rule of it's
like very, it's very indistinct, indistinct, I don't even know
what the right word.
It's very, what's the rightword?
(24:22):
Non-argumentative, like youknow, when you see it, you know
it and everybody can feel it.
But I think people can perceivethings differently.
Like I know a lot of people whohave, who are, you know, really
smart, but they're a littleabrasive in the way that they
work, and like they've had tolearn to tone those things back
and figure out how tocommunicate with others.
But it's hard because theydon't see it Like when you talk
(24:46):
to them specifically, they'relike, oh, I don't really know
what you're talking about.
Like, really, I did that, andit's like yeah, yeah, you did
that.
And here was the meeting whereit occurred, and this is how it
made some people feel.
And I think people who areself-aware and have goodwill to
them will be open to thatfeedback.
What you've got to look out foris people who aren't or they're
(25:06):
like who said that Give me aname.
The second you see that thatperson needs to be off the team
immediately, because that willonly continue with that behavior
and that will be a toxicculture that's building.
But if they're open to it andthey're like, oh my goodness,
like are you serious, I had noidea I was doing that Like
please give me anything you cando so I avoid doing that in the
future and I'll be moreconscious of it, it's like, okay
(25:26):
, this person clearly justdidn't see it and they are just
trying to do their best.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Some people can be very, very sensitive to feedback
, especially when it comes toother people, which is like
that's the hard part.
Right Is when you as a managermight not have a problem with
the behavior, but someone elsedoes, and then it's your
obligation and responsibility tosay hey, you know, dave, listen
up.
People don't like the fact thatyou know you come off so direct
(25:53):
, like, and it's hard becauseyou'd be like well, I really
like Dave's directness with.
For me that really gels with myCAC.
I never have to wonder is Davebeing honest with me?
But, like some people might findand we saw this a lot in
engineering it was like superabrasive, right.
Like he'll just tell you yeah,this code's no good, your code's
bad, you need to go back andrefactor it.
Here's where you can fix thingsLike it's like which.
(26:18):
Again, this is a very Americanproblem.
You don't really have thisproblem in Europe because people
are just direct there, butdirectness can be seen as a
negative quirk to have inAmerican corporate structure.
It's very frustrating and as amanager sometimes you have to go
in and curb that, even thoughyou might not have a problem
with it.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, I even think something important for a
manager is whoever's giving thefeedback, make sure it's
warranted feedback, because youshouldn't just immediately act
on any feedback that someoneshares.
You should gain your ownperspective and monitor.
Like your job as a manager isto monitor the situation.
Like next time, if you gotfeedback that something's
(26:58):
happening in meeting, you shouldswoop into the meeting Like hey
guys, I'm just here to listenand observe and see how things
are going.
Like, if you aren't, if it'snot definitively black and white
, I have evidence.
You need to get your ownopinion and be observant and
then share that feedback.
But sometimes the feedback isnot warranted and you have to
give coaching.
The other way to be like hey,susie, it's okay that jim likes
(27:22):
to eat his rice while he'ssitting at his desk.
Like, if you're not a fan ofhim eating his rice, then during
your lunch period feel free toseparate yourself from the
situation and go sit in thebreak room.
But there's nothing againstpolicy that says jim can't eat
his rice at his desk.
So I love like.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Those are the things.
Yeah, you're almost reversed toknowing feedback back on them.
It's like hey, I understand youhave a problem with this, but
listen, there's nothing againstcorporate policy that says they
can't do this, and if you havean issue with it, then you need
to remove yourself from thesituation, right?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Exactly.
It's a really good response.
If someone approaches you withunwarranted feedback or
something that doesn't makesense, that's also definitive of
a toxic culture.
Starting by that person Likethat means that they are going
to be more than likely difficultto work with and difficult, you
know.
Being a team player, I thinkI've seen that from time to time
(28:13):
where it's like this personjust complains like everything's
a complaint, I'm working toofast, I'm working too slow, I'm
not getting them what they need.
It's like they're going to notbe conducive to the team
environment you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
The one that I've seen.
That's a little dangerous iswhen someone approaches you
perhaps like your end, likemaybe you were in the meeting
where the thing happened or youknow the full story.
So now you have to basicallysay, actually the feedback you
(28:49):
were given might be a littlebias or, you know, unfairly
tilted towards my staff.
Here's what I know, here's whatI know, here's what I've seen
and here's some feedback aboutthis person.
And you know, like reverse Uno,it can get rough, Like it can
get really rough when there'slike a third party involved on
(29:10):
the feedback chain.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's where you have
to use the observing nature andeven put it back on that person,
be like, hey, why don't we bothgo and like observe the
meetings, or just to not causealarms?
You know, I'll step into ameeting one time.
You know, next week you stepinto the meeting and we'll both
kind of gain our differentperspectives and then we'll come
(29:32):
back together and we'll we'llcompare notes on on what
happened.
The hard part to your point islike if things happen that are
situational and you're gettingthird hand feedback from the
situation, it's like, well, ithappened in this meeting and it
wasn't recorded and it was onlybetween three people and I was
one of them.
(29:53):
It's like OK, now it's like who,whose voice do I listen to?
Do I bring it up with thisperson and say I got this
feedback?
Like those are the hardestthings for me as a manager is
it's like, yeah, this happenedin this one-off meeting.
It was just us two.
And it's like how do you, howdo you handle that?
And the way I've given feedback,because I've had this situation
happen where someone approachedme and they're like hey, I just
(30:13):
no-transcript, you've got toseparate yourself and come and
(30:46):
talk to me and we'll work itthrough together.
Or if it's a meeting, it's likeI encourage you to invite other
people to the meeting that arerelevant to the conversation, so
it's not just you and thisperson working together.
That way, hopefully, you feelsafer because you're with your
team and you're not inone-on-one situations with this
person.
And then telling them hey, I'mthere.
You know, let's talk about thisevery week.
(31:06):
If you need me to attendmeetings, I'm more than happy to
.
I'll join in with you and Ithink that's the best advice you
can give.
It's like, if it's one-on-oneand there's no way to know what
happened, you've got to findways, as as a manager, to give
them the advice to keep thissafe space and then, ultimately,
give you time to assess thesituation.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
I love that.
I think that's a really goodway to handle that situation.
Specifically, a thoughtoccurred to me when you were
talking through that, of abehavior that we might have
talked about on this podcastbefore, but I don't remember it,
and now I'm kind of shockedthat we haven't, and I think we
(31:44):
could probably actually dedicatean entire episode to this
behavior.
So, or two, rather than goinginto it now and to save your
internet some bandwidth, I'mjust going to tease next week's
topic.
It's going to be a heater.
Ooh, ooh, mm.
I can smell it.
(32:04):
It's getting spicy.
You can smell it.
It's because of what you said.
It's specifically because ofwhat you said.
I was like, oh my gosh, like weneed to talk about this
specific thing that people doand how to handle it, both as I
sees as managers, as those whomight've said the word oh, I
like that, or the phrase.
I should say it's a phrase thatpeople use to give a little
(32:25):
tease to the topic we're goingto have to hit this next week.
This is an episode worthy.
We can't do this justice, right?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
now my brain is not fully functioning and also my
internet is crap right now, sohopefully this has been coherent
.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
But I heard what you said and I'm excited.
I'm excited for it.
Good, I got most of what yousaid, so we're good on our end.
Uh, and I think on that note,we can, we can go ahead and shut
it down.
Uh, clark's internet's dying,it's.
It's not a short one by anymeans, but it's not as long as
some of the previous ones.
So we'll make up for it nextweek with a heater topic, I
promise.
Until then, join the discordthe way you do that.
(33:02):
Click on your show notes, gointo the link tree, click join
the discord.
It's our community.
We play games in there Likewhat do you mean?
Is it me or is it corporate?
And we just have a great groupof people to talk about jobs,
job experience, networking,marketing yourself.
There's so many topics in there, so many channels to get
involved in.
Join, even if you just want tolurk.
Please share the podcast withyour friends, neighbors and
(33:22):
family, share it with yourenemies, share it with anyone
who works in corp.
Uh, word of mouth is how wegrow.
We have no natural marketing,even though one of us is a
professional marketer.
And if you're interested ingetting your own baby onesie in
that link tree in the show notes.
There is a store you can go toto buy corporate strategy swag
and other fun things.
We profit off of it None.
So if you want to help us outfinancially, you can buy us a
(33:45):
coffee through that link as well.
I think that'll do it for thisweek's episode.
So until next time, circle thewagon.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
It could be I got a second one for you to hit me up.
Go burn some popcorn in thegroup public dining area, just
for the whole office to smelljust do it.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Burn that popcorn, don't go back for the bag.
Let it, let it be on fire,leave it, just let that
smoldering corn.
Just smoke it up.
And until you do, I'm bruce andI'm clark and you're on mute.
We will see you next week.
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