188. How To Write Reviews, Give Feedback, And Survive Bad Managers

We trade Halloween jokes for hard truths about performance reviews: how to log wins, avoid surprise ratings, and argue your case without burning bridges. We compare startup urgency with big-corp safety nets and offer scripts for giving and receiving feedback that actually helps.

• logging accomplishments at release and milestone moments
• mapping outcomes to goals and competencies
• building role-specific ladders for clear growth paths
• aligning marketing and product impact to revenue metrics
• avoiding surprise reviews with timely, specific feedback
• turning reviews into two-way conversations
• using scripts to challenge or clarify feedback
• managing up and protecting team perception
• cautionary tale: bizarre corporate AI training and real AI limits

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
What do you think, Craig?
Do you think if someone asks youa favor, but you say no, that
they're allowed to bedisappointed?
Oh yeah, no, I I completelyagree, Craig.
I think that is a very immatureand unwieldy behavior.
I think the favor asker needs totake the rejection in stride.

(00:24):
Yeah, you're right.
We should record a podcast.
How you doing, Clark?

SPEAKER_03 (00:28):
Right to business, Craig.
Always.
You know, this one's scary.
This is a spooky episode.
This is spooky.

SPEAKER_00 (00:34):
We're recording this on the spookiest day of the
year.
Halloween.
You know what's really spooky?
What's that?
My voice could give out at anymoment.

SPEAKER_03 (00:46):
So we've only been talking, just to give people
context.
We've been talking, justchatting for a few minutes
before.
And it's been going and gettingworse and worse like every
minute.
So this is gonna go really well.

SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
Yes, I I think it will.
I'm I'm very excited to uh torecord this podcast where I
might actually die in therecording of it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08):
If you lose your voice mid-podcast, that would
actually be really funny.
That's something that we'venever had like a mid-podcast
disconnect where somebody justhad to carry it forward and the
other person couldn't.
So it'd be really funny if thathappened.
I just would have to filibusterthe rest of the time.
I would uh absolutely stillupload this episode.

(01:29):
Oh, you mean our qualityproduction team wouldn't stop
you?
You you just have the autonomyto go do it yourself?

SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
I sure do.
I would make a mockery of you,me, the pod, and everyone who
listens.
Because I'm that kind of guy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:41):
And you know what?
We're an organization that'swilling to take risk, and we
think our listeners would enjoyit.
Why not try it?
It's an experiment.
Why not?

SPEAKER_00 (01:48):
Why not try it?
Hey Clark, question for you.
Yeah, please.
Welcome back to CorporateStrategy Podcast because an
email number is Clark.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (02:00):
Oh, okay.
That's the question.
Wait, it's gonna be thequestion.
Vibe check, pinky's up.
I got my pinky up.
I'm vibing.
You know, today's been a goodday.
Really?
Today's been a good day.
Yeah, I had to hear that.
I had one, I had okay, so I hadone meeting that turned into
three meetings, but it was allin like an hour and 15 minutes,

(02:22):
so that was fine.
You know, I I dealt with allthat, and then I spent the day
doing my year-end review, whichwas somewhat therapeutic.
A little early for a year-endreview.
Yeah, I was getting proud.
Yeah, you're right.
It is a little bit early, but wealways go off kilter like this.
So November is usually when wehave to submit them.
So I'm a few weeks ahead.

(02:43):
And I just had the time to getit done, and it was therapeutic.
It was cool to look back, andyou probably feel this too.
It's like you're so busy everysingle day, and it's so rare,
like when anything that's threedays old is actually relevant
anymore.
And when you look back at thingsand you like look at the things
you've accomplished, things yourteam has done, the work you've

(03:05):
done, it's therapeutic to belike, holy cow, we've done a
lot.
And then when you look at ityear over year, I pulled up my
2024 review, my 2023 review, I'mlike, there's been so much
growth.
And I'm just appreciative of howmuch we're able to get done
right now compared to where wewere two years ago.

SPEAKER_00 (03:21):
It's it's really funny you say that because um a
few months ago when I was uhapplying for the VP role at my
current job, my my boss is goingover with me all my
accomplishments, and I was like,dude, how do you how do you know
I did all this when I don't evenknow that I did all this?
Like, it is a blur to me.

(03:42):
And the fact that you have allof this like on lock written
down is crazy.
Like you make me sound muchbetter than I actually look and
sound.
And it was it's all things Idid, but it was really funny
because just like I lost trackof all the accomplishments I had
for the year, and my boss hadthem all written down, just as
like, yeah, no, you're the best.
Here you go.
Here's a list of all the thingsyou're great at.

(04:03):
Like, oh my gosh, dude.
That's super cool.
I don't know.
But it made me it made merealize like I need to do a
better job of cataloging myaccomplishments.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (04:14):
Well, it's funny because we talked about that
before.
Um, I think in a previousepisode where we were like, you
every single time you have a bigaccomplishment, go ahead and
like just log it somewhere.
Put it in a notes document, haveit prepped for the next year.
Um, and that way, when it comesto review time, it's not like,
oh shoot, I gotta go through theroadmap and like figure out what

(04:36):
I do again?
Like, what am I doing?
So I think that's something thatwe could all do better on.
It's like make it a habit.
You you finish a project, put itin that notes file for the end
of your review.
But you know what I think is sointeresting that I don't think
I've ever had happen to me is mymanager comes prepared with
those things.
I don't think I've ever had thathappen.
Like, that's actually prettycool.

SPEAKER_00 (04:58):
It is, it was really cool.
I really appreciated it.
And it it just made me realizehow woefully out of touch I am
with keeping track of my ownthings.

SPEAKER_03 (05:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, that'sthat's awesome that they kept
tracking me.
Like, hey, you're doing awesome,Bruce.
Like, look at all this reallycool stuff that you've
accomplished this year.
I think that's a that's a reallycool testament to probably a
pretty good manager if they'repaying attention to those
things.
I think, and I think I'm guiltyof this too.
Oh, this is this makes Halloweeneven worse because I'm gonna say
something that's gonna scareeverybody.

(05:28):
The review time is sometimeswhen the teams, myself included,
you have an opportunity toremind your boss what you did
that year.
Like, hey, we've done a lot.
Like, don't forget, as you'recalibrating me across all my
peers, don't forget how much Idid and the things that I did.
And I hate it, but it's true.

(05:50):
Sometimes in my reviews, my teambrings things up and they're
like, oh crap, I forgot you didthat.

SPEAKER_00 (05:56):
Yeah.
I mean, it's important because Ithink more often than not it
goes the other way where peopleforget the things they did.
Like people like me forget thethings that I did in the year,
but they definitely forget thethings other people do.
And you definitely got to makesure you write that stuff down
and have a list.
Um, what do you do?

(06:18):
Like, what's your what's yoursecret to cataloging all of your
accomplishments?

SPEAKER_03 (06:22):
Yeah, well, I was terrible about it this year, but
usually it's like every singletime we go through yearly,
luckily for from a product teamperspective, like our job is to
define the roadmaps.
And so that's kind of like yourtemplate right there.
It's like the things I'm gonnado and what I'm gonna be
measured on is very likely thethings in my roadmap from an 80%
standpoint.

(06:42):
And then there's, of course,since I'm a people leader,
there's a 20% of like managerialportion of that.
They'll never be on a roadmap,but it's things that I'm
contributing to the broaderteam, I'm growing my team,
things like that.
So luckily it's pretty easy.
Whenever I go through reviews,my process, it actually would be
interesting to hear your processtoo.
My process is usually I'll pullup 2024, whatever I wrote down

(07:04):
for 2024 and look through reallyquick just to remember what I
wrote down and what I what Iwrote as an accomplishment.
And then for 2025, I start bybasically just pulling up my
roadmap and saying, what did weactually do this year?
And just writing all thosethings down.
And so I kind of write down thebig ones.
If they're really small, I don'tnecessarily call them out, but I
write them down, I write downthe impact, and then you know,

(07:25):
from there I kind of formulatehow do these align towards the
goals or objectives that wereset for me at the beginning of
the year.
So I kind of go through eachgoal one by one and I reference
that list of being like, okay,we did this, it had this result.
I did this, it had this result.
And so that's how I kind of endup writing almost in kind of
like a first person storytellingnarrative, um, my reviews.

(07:47):
And put that in a document orwhat yeah.
Since we're a big company, wehave a system.
So we have a system that all ofour reviews go through.
Yeah, isn't that nice?

SPEAKER_00 (07:57):
That is nice.
That is nice.
Yeah, it's not because I'm overhere like thinking, do I make a
spreadsheet?
Like, how do I actually trackthis in a way that is meaningful
for me and my team?
Because I I don't have anysystem whatsoever for this.

SPEAKER_03 (08:11):
Really?
Man, that's it.
Yeah, zero.
Yeah, I think big corp, and Ithink anybody that's working for
big corp probably has a systemwhere it's like it's annual
review time, like go into thesystem, and you have to,
everybody has to follow the sameprocess.
For us, it's goals and write upif you have completed your goal,
if it's still in progress, ifyou didn't complete it, if it's

(08:32):
no longer relevant.
Mark whether you met theexpectations, didn't meet the
expectations, exceeded.
So you kind of do yourself-review, and then you do a
write-up towards each goal andwhy you think you got the rating
that you're rating yourself.
Then we have a competencysection.
So it's you know, the core kindof values, I guess, that our
organization abides by isgeneral to the every single

(08:53):
employer company.
It's like, did you do thesethings?
Do you rank it as a strength, aneeds of development, or you
know, something that uh is justnot a or unmet, like you're just
doing it.
So it's either a strength, youmet it, um, or it's something
that needs development.
And then lastly, we have kind oflike an overall summary of where
you think you land.
So everybody kind of goesthrough that.
And I think the extra nuancethat I think I talked about this

(09:15):
in a prior episode, something Idid for our organization this
year, and I worked with my peersto do, is we expanded on just
the values that our company hasat a whole and what you rank
yourself.
And we basically said, let'smake it product manager
specific, like productmanagement.
Let's put ranks, an associateproduct manager manager, a

(09:37):
product manager, a seniorproduct manager, a director of
product management, and let's gothrough and actually write down
the behaviors and skill setsthat you need at each of those
levels.
So now it's not just thesegeneric, you know, giant
organization values.
It's like these are specific toyour role, and we should be
going through those as well asthe generic company ones.
And so this is the first yearwe're doing it.

(09:57):
I think it's gonna be reallyinteresting to see what the team
comes up with and whatchallenges we have because it's
a it's a lengthy list and it'sgonna add to the review process.
But I hope on the other side ofthis, we basically are able to
say, hey, I understand better ofwhat I'm not doing in my role in
order to get to the next leveland where I need to focus my
attention in 2026 so that I canbe doing these behaviors or

(10:19):
learning these skill sets orwhatever it needs to grow in my
career.
So I'm really excited.
This is a big year.

SPEAKER_00 (10:25):
When do you excuse me, how the voice is dying?
When do you go?
I this is something that Ishould log as an accomplishment
for myself.
Like what point in time are youlike, hey, Clark did great.

SPEAKER_03 (10:43):
I think it's largely around those releases on the
roadmap.
It's like when we do a release,I think that's the trigger.
It's like, okay, today's releaseday.
I'm gonna write down everythingthat we're releasing.
That way I have it for referenceand I don't forget.
Because since I was bad about itthis year, I'm sure over the
next couple days, the next week,I'm gonna be like, oh wait, I
forgot to write down this, Iforgot about this.

(11:04):
Like, there's gonna be all thatstuff that comes up that now I
just don't have because I can'trecall it from memory.
So I think for me, what I can dobetter is those moments where
release happens, I need to writethose things down.

SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
Well, and it's really nice for you because your
entire org is tied to thismythical roadmap, which you
know, you can always point backto, look at, compare against.
That's nice, right?
You've got you've got a singleline that is essentially, you
know, did we underachieve oroverachieve based on plan?

(11:36):
I I think with roles where, youknow, like developer, engineer,
uh, even sales, productmanagement, there's always going
to be a very easy way to trackhow you did based on the
assignments you're given.
For me, it's not so easy becausethinking, you know, marketing

(11:58):
runs ahead of productmanagement.
Yeah.
In in many ways, right?
Like I'm curious what yourroadmap is, but also it doesn't
matter, I have to put outmarketing material this quarter
whether you have something ornot.
So I'm making something up,right?
I'm getting creative, I'm I'mgoing off and building thought
leadership.
And marketing is successful orit fails based on are we

(12:20):
generating leads?
Are we generating awareness?
Are we converting leads intosales?
Like, what are we doing that'sthat's making people interested
in purchasing product orengaging with the company in
some way, shape, or form?
And here's here's the real rubof it all.
I could spend an entire quarterbuilding the coolest thing ever
and putting it out there andgiving it promotion and spending

(12:42):
lots of money and making thisthing as big and huge as it can
be, and it just doesn't land forwhatever reason, right?
Is that a success or a failure?
And how do I how do I report onme based on what like because
like in you know,hypothetically, on paper, this
was a great idea.

(13:03):
This this should have donegangbusters for us, but time,
timing, politics, some factorcause this thing to fail.
And how do you how do you reporton that from uh an
accomplishments perspective?
Like, does effort equalaccomplishment in in my org?

(13:24):
Or is that a failure?
And is that something that Ineed to report back to you know
my leadership?
Like, yeah, yeah, we we spent$100,000 and you know, a few
hundred hours, and it's uhproduced this ginormous flop of
a project.
You should fire us all.
Like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 (13:40):
Oh I'm gonna I'm gonna make sure I forgot
completely to put my headphonesin.
And because of that, I hope yourvoice is not reverberating
through the rest of thispodcast.
If it is, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (13:52):
I think I think Discord does a pretty good job
of cleaning it up for the mostpart.
I couldn't hear it, so it'salways a good stuff.
I can't hear it.
Okay, well, we'll continue on.
And I I see you you've avoidedanswering the question.
Good good play there.

SPEAKER_03 (14:07):
Well, well, I'm I'm gonna get out, I'm gonna get at
it right now.
I think it I think it alldepends like what does your
company value or need as awhole?
Sales.
Right.
So like for you in a startupmentality, what do you value?
It's like real revenue, mostlikely.
Right.

(14:27):
You know, equated by sales, partof the sale is a victory.

unknown (14:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (14:32):
Yeah, dollars.
Like it's all about how do youjust gain the revenue to either
work towards a goal of goingpublic or be acquired or
whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 (14:39):
And like I would say, even as a startup, it's not
just dollars or revenue, it'sjust sales.
If we broke flat even, that'sstill better than not breaking
at all.
Like truly as many sales aspossible, right?
Like that is a startup's goal.

SPEAKER_03 (14:53):
Right.
And so I think that's what makesit really difficult because
you're still trying to findproduct market fit and establish
yourself as a company.
And so your your company, andthis is going to be pretty
brutal, but I'm curious if youagree, they don't care about
learning.
No.
Learning is not a goal.
It's like if you fail and youlearn something, likely that's

(15:16):
not valuable to the company.
It's it'd be valuable if thatlearning produces more sales
next quarter.
Yeah, yep.
It's like if you fail and youcan't take that into how do we
revise our strategy to drivemore sales, it's just a total
waste.
Like learning, even if you learnsomething, like if it takes you
backwards or you don't hit yoursales targets, or you're off par

(15:38):
from the last quarter, that's afailure.
Doesn't matter what you learned.
Like you're your company couldbe dead in three quarters.
Like, you don't know, right?
And that that's actually apretty scary place to be in.

SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
And I mean, it's it's funny because usually when
I do reviews, well, you know, inmy in my company, we actually do
the four box review.
Are you familiar?
I I've talked about this before,right?
Where you're you're rated rankedon your it's not just your
actual job performance, but alsoyour uh alignment to the company
values and the culture.

(16:10):
So you get a one through three.
One needs improvement, two is onthe mark, three is
overachieving.
So you could be like atwo-three, you do your job well,
and everyone loves you.
Or you could be like athree-one, you do your job
better than well, everyone hatesyour guts, right?
Like it's that toxic A player.

(16:30):
So it's pretty easy.
I I would say I think it's athat's a good model for
performing reviews at a startup,because like I talked about
before, the way we gradeourselves and the things we care
about as far as accomplishmentsgo aren't the same kind of
things you get measured on at abig corp.
Yeah.
So it's good in that regard, butit's bad in the if you're not

(16:53):
tracking the things you'redoing, if you're not writing
down your accomplishments asthey happen, they will get lost.
So it's very easy for me to justsay, hey, looking at you, Clark,
I think you're a two-three.
And that seems about right.
And that'll be what you getwritten down for.
I don't I don't remember whatyou did in the first two
quarters of the year, but you'rea two-three.
And I could fight for that and Ican argue that and get you that.

(17:13):
So, like, there's an upside tothat, which is it's a very easy
system to quickly box peopleinto because you're just going
based off feel, right?
But at the same time, in yourcase, and I think what you're
doing that's so good is becauseyou have all of this written
down, you have all thistrackable.
It's not just a good review foryou at the company level.
It's good for you, like you cango update your resume with this

(17:35):
information.
This is stuff that you can writedown and actually use when
arguing for raises, salarybumps, you know, looking at
different jobs internally orexternally.
Like these are accomplishmentsthat go well beyond just the
review.
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Okay, I heard that one.
I got too passionate there.
Thanks for that.

SPEAKER_03 (17:55):
You did.
You got a little too fired up.

SPEAKER_00 (17:57):
I gotta make it off the soapbox.

SPEAKER_03 (18:01):
No, I think that's it.
Is really interesting, like thedifferences.
Because I think in a largerorganization, even if you fail,
it's not at a detriment to thecompany.
And because of that, it's it'sokay to fail, and you can kind
of transform your organizationinto a learning organization
where you're like, what are wetrying to learn?

(18:22):
What are we trying to validate?
We may be successful, we maynot, but this is what we took
away from it.
And that is actually the mostvaluable thing because we
already have product market fit,are an established public
company.
Like, those are things that wecan afford to do, and it makes
the workplace a little lessstressful because you you don't
have to worry about are we gonnabe alive next quarter?

(18:45):
You you just know, hey, I'mworking towards a goal and we're
gonna advance this part of ourcompany.
But if we don't, we're probablygonna be just fine.
Okay, I got a I got a questionfor you, manager.
Manager Bruce.
All right, oh, hello.
What do you what do you do?
What do you do if someone youknow they're not you you are not

(19:06):
gonna give them a great review?
But they come to you and theythink they have they're the
hottest thing around town, andlike they wrote down so many
things that are accomplishments,and you you're taking in this
written review, and it's a30-page biography of what
they've done in the last year.

SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
How do you handle that situation?
So one, this ne- I need moreinformation, and it's because
I've I've lived through this inmultiple ways.
So is this person actually badat their jobs, or are they
perceived as bad at their jobs?

SPEAKER_03 (19:44):
I'd say they're actually they're
underperforming.
Let's not say bad.
It's not like Pip, but they'reunderperforming.
They think they're ready for apromotion or something like
that.

SPEAKER_00 (19:54):
So in that case, then one the real trick to this
is getting ahead of it and notdoing it at the review, right?
Like when I receive feedbackthat someone on my team is under
not even I wouldn't even sayunderperforming, but just not
meeting an expectation in someregard.
Hey, on this project, I reallyneed uh Jane to step up her her

(20:18):
game here.
It's like, oh, okay, well, uhnow I understand there's a
perception around Jane.
My next one-on-one, literallynext week, I'm having a
conversation with Jane on thisexact thing.
Like, because I don't want toget to review, yeah.
And have to be like, hey, soyou're a one-two, and it's
because you didn't do this.

(20:38):
Yeah.
And then Jane's like, well, whydid no one tell me?
Well, you know, I it was justsense, like, right, like that's
the worst position to be in as amanager, is having to explain
something after the fact whenyou could have delivered the
feedback.
Like, if it's if it's reallyimportant, like if it's like,
hey, I need this from Janetomorrow, like, where is it?

(20:59):
Is she working on it?
That's when I'm I'm scheduling acall.
Like, hey, we need to have aquick 15-minute chat today.
Nothing, you know, it's it'snothing that's gonna like hurt
you in any way, shape, or form,but like, we need to get this
figured out so you look yourbest, best foot forward moving
forward.

SPEAKER_03 (21:14):
It's so great that you went in this direction
because I think that's like themost valuable lesson for a
manager.
Review should not be a surprise.
Never.
You have to give that feedbackin real time when it's
contextualized, when it'sunderstood.
Because when things are busy, ifyou wait a month to tell
someone, then you'll be like, Idon't even remember the exact

(21:36):
scenario and what the situationwas.
Like, not a month.
Try a week.

SPEAKER_01 (21:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (21:41):
Yeah.
So you have to give it in themoment as soon as you can to let
them know.
Like, hey, absolutely, this isthe behavior we're seeing.
You shouldn't be doing this, oryou miss this deadline.
Because if you wait and you makeit a surprise, it's gonna look
real bad for you and they'regonna be real upset.

SPEAKER_00 (21:57):
Well, here's the thing, too, is the longer you
wait and the less fresh it is,the harder it's gonna be for the
manager or whoever's giving thefeedback to deliver good
feedback on it, right?
Like if you if you're able to doit that day or within that week
and say, hey, let's have a quickchat.
Just wanted to let you know theway that, you know, the way you
handled the delivery of thatproject, uh, it kind of

(22:18):
disappointed some of our keystakeholders here.
They expected it as a PowerPointand they wanted some some graphs
to go along with it.
But now we know for the future,and you know, it's it's not a
big deal.
Moving forward, we're gonna havethis as exit criteria.
So thanks for for taking this,you know, first try at this
effort.
And now we all know for thefuture.

(22:40):
One, you're you're respondingimmediately to what you've heard
and what you've seen.
And now the person who'sreceiving that feedback knows as
well.
So it's not, they can't argueit, right?
It just happened.
It also doesn't feel as I don'tknow, like it doesn't feel as
negative when it's in themoment, right?
Because you're just talkingabout something that happened
versus talking about them inregards to something that

(23:03):
happened.
You're talking about the actionrather than talking about the
person.
And when you frame it as alearning opportunity, like, hey,
moving forward, this is acriteria for everybody.
Like, you know, thanks for forhelping us figure this out this
time, you know, forevermore.
Graphs have to be included in ithas to be in a PowerPoint
format.
Like we know.

(23:24):
Like, I I just feel like thatprevents you from ever getting
to the point where it's a it's atrue like shock.
Hey, you continue, you know, ifthey continue to do it, you
continue to have thatconversation.
Like, you're still not givingthem a PowerPoint.
There's no graphs.
Why?
Like, why aren't you doing this?
And then you know, by the fifthtime, then it's a listen, do we
need to talk about like, is isthere something fundamentally

(23:47):
missing here?
Like, do we need to go on aplan?
Like, what's going on?
But I would never get to areview and be like, well, you
never put it in a PowerPoint.

SPEAKER_03 (23:54):
So I think those are all such great points.
Because yeah, the last thing youwant to do is surprise somebody.
And I think the question Iasked, you answered the right
way.
It's like if someone's comingin, they think they're the
hottest thing around town,they're either really out of
touch, which I have had happen.
I've had people where I've giventhem consistent feedback over

(24:16):
and over again.
I'm like, listen, this must beimproved.
Like, this will put you at alower rating.
I've I've like literally saidthese words to somebody, and
still they came back likethinking they've done everything
perfectly and they're callingout things that I'm like, those
things don't matter.
Stop doing those things.
And at that point, it is exactlywhat you're saying.
It's it's time to go on a plan.
We've got to talk about yourperformance.

(24:38):
And you're obviously missingfundamental responsibilities or
an understanding of thoseresponsibilities for this job.
And those conversations suckbecause you know it could be the
individual, it could also belike your organization, the
clarity around the role, or thegroup that they're around that
make it difficult for them tounderstand.
So it's sometimes a reallydifficult message, but it's it's

(25:00):
an important one.
Otherwise, they're just going tokeep going down the wrong path
and they're never going to besuccessful on your team.

SPEAKER_00 (25:05):
So I do think we should talk about the other
side, which is when you havebeen given feedback about
someone you disagree with, andyou have to incorporate that
into your review.
Because I've been I've been inthat one too, and that one's far
worse, in my opinion.
Because one, you can talk tohonestly and openly, the other,

(25:26):
you're going to offend somebody,and it's rough.
Have you ever been there?

SPEAKER_03 (25:31):
I think I think so.
And I want to hear your story,but since I'm talking, I can I
can start.
So I had a manager for like ayear.
It was kind of like temporary.
It was an interesting situation.
But I remember going intoreview, and I did feel
surprised.
I was like, oh wow, this is likethe first time I've gotten more

(25:52):
negative.
It still was an okay review,more negative feedback than I've
gotten.
And I didn't think any of thiswas going to be an issue.
Like I thought this was allstuff that we worked on.
So to be honest with you, Ihandled that situation very
poorly.
I just kind of took it because II was so shocked.
I was just like, I just wasn'tprepared for this type of
feedback.

(26:13):
Some of it was like I can seehow it would be accurate, but
also I can see because of thenature of the conversation or
the work, I think it was likesaying no, not saying yes to
everything and saying no andlike drawing a line in
priorization.
And I'm not, the way I looked atit was I wasn't saying yes to

(26:35):
specifically the thing they wereasking us to do.
I was saying yes, we will meetthe objective you're trying to
achieve, but it's gonna bedifferent than the way you're
thinking about it.
And so I was like, that wastotally within our scope.
And I look back like with yourquestion now, and it's funny
because it was years ago and I'mreflecting on that just now, but
that should have been myresponse to be like, listen, I

(26:56):
said yes, that we were going tomeet their objective, not yes,
we're gonna do what they wantedus to do.
And I think you misunderstoodthe situation and what we were
agreeing on.
And so I think that was like thetime that I remember just being
completely blindsided and thenme just not handling it well
because I was so shocked.

SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
So I think that's it's an understandable reaction.
And my only advice I would giveto you is feel free to push
back.
And I like I mean that.
Like be compassionate, whetherit's it's feedback to yourself
or feedback about someone onyour team, feel impassioned and

(27:33):
empowered to push back and say,I hear what you're saying, but
let me give you mycounteropinion because I think
either myself or my teammateactually doing a little bit more
or better than what you mightperceive.
So let's talk about this becausethis is your perception.
And I think it's reallyimportant to point that out too
is like this is your perception.
I'm gonna show you myperception.

(27:55):
Can we find a middle groundhere?
And talk through, you know, youyou said X, Y, and Z, but have
you considered A, B, and C?
Also, Y and Z are not thisperson's job.
And if you think that it is,then that's another conversation
that we need to have becausethis person doesn't even know
that you think this is theirjob, nor did I, right?

(28:17):
So, like, I think there is animportant part of like sometimes
you have to not just takesomething at face value and dig
deeper, right?
Because it is all perception atthe end of the day.
There is no such thing as truthwhen it comes to feedback, it's
all matter of opinion.
And I think there's truth.
There's not an objective truth,period, in corporate, right?
Like it is always what does myboss think?

(28:39):
What do my peers think?
What do my direct reports think?
What does the CEO think?
It's just opinion the whole waydown.
Right.
And you have to be able to pushback and articulate clearly, you
know, your opinions, what yousee, what you perceive, and why
you think that this is off themark.
And then another conversationneeds to occur with if it's not

(29:00):
you that's receiving thefeedback, if it's for a direct
or someone who reports to you,you need to have a conversation
with them and say, hey, look,there is a perception here.
I don't agree with it, and it'sbecause we work closely
together.
But other people outside of ourteam see this.
And we being you and me, becausethis is not just a you problem,
this is a me as your managerproblem, have to figure out how

(29:22):
we change your perception uhmore broadly.
And that is how I've handledthat, and that's how I will
continue to handle it because Ithink it works, but it is a far
worse situation to be in than tojust receive feedback that is
warranted.
Yeah.
Oh man.

SPEAKER_03 (29:37):
That's such a hard thing to do.
And I I applaud you becausedebating that, I think something
that you said is reallyinteresting.
A review is a conversation, nota definitive this is the answer.
Like a review is a back andforth.

(29:59):
It's Do we have the sameunderstanding of the
expectations of me?
Am I doing the things that Ishould be doing and am I doing
them well?
And like that is an opportunityto receive clarity on what
you're doing and if you're doingthe right things or the wrong

(30:19):
thing.
I never even like thought ofthat.
Of this is a conversation.
It's not a here's the feedbackyou're gonna take.
It's not one way.
It's too late.
Go and do it.
Yeah.
And if you look at it at one atone way, it's a detriment to you
because you're not you're notdigging into the details to
understand how you can dobetter, and it could really
hinder your career because youmay get in your next review and

(30:40):
have the same exact thing happenbecause you don't understand,
especially if you disagree, likewhat you should be doing.

unknown (30:46):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (30:47):
That's so that's so interesting.
And I was trying to think oflike tactics to bring this up in
a way where it'll be wellreceived.
And I almost think the firststep to that, like if you
receive negative feedback, thatyou're like, I don't agree with
this, don't just say, Idisagree.
Like, don't just go, nope, nope,eh, eh, Bruce, that's not me.

(31:09):
Don't don't do that.
But I think you can you canreceive it and you can state it
back to them.
Just be like, okay, thanks,thanks for the feedback.
Just to make sure I understandyour perspective of this
situation was that I handled itpoorly because of X, Y, and Z.
Does that sound right?
And they're like, yeah, thatdoes sound right.
And it's like, okay, totally getthat.

(31:31):
My perspective is in my role,this is what I should be doing
in those scenarios, and this iswhat I'm responsible for.
But that thing that fell to thewayside that you're saying that
I should be responsible for, Iactually think that's Bruce's
job.
That's not my job.
And then you can get thatclarity of being like, is this
something that I actually needto be responsible for moving
forward?

(31:51):
And next time, I will gladlytake the ball and say, okay,
Bruce, I'm gonna handle thispiece to make sure it gets done.
Like that's your opportunity toreceive that clarity, which is
why that review is so importantthat it's a conversation, not
just you receiving it.

SPEAKER_00 (32:05):
There's um there's there's two phrases you can use.
And we've talked about we dothis a lot on this pod.
There is the Bruce way, and thenthere's the right way.
Uh so the right way, I you canalways use this.
Is when someone says somethingto you, hey, before we move on,
can we discuss that?
I want to dig into that deeper,right?

(32:26):
Like I want to I want to discussthat last point you made, or I
want to I want to go back to thethat point you made about Jane
not being able to uh deliverthings in PowerPoint.
Let's dig into that, right?
Because then it forces you tohave a conversation about it.
Like no matter what happensafter that point, you will have
a conversation about that.
Now the Bruce way is I'm gonnachallenge you on that.

(32:46):
And I I use that phrase becauseit puts them on the like it puts
them a little bit on the defenseof like, oh, yeah, why am I
being challenged?
Like what?
And I I will only use thatphrase when I know 100% that I
am in the right.
I have factual data to back thisup, and I'm I'm coming into
this, it's not as a fight, butI'm coming into this with a uh

(33:09):
basically you are gonna walk outof this conversation, at least
having had to have thought aboutwhat was presented in a way that
you hadn't thought about itbefore.
And I do like using a little bitmore challenging language around
that, so it doesn't just soundlike, hey, let's talk about
this.
It's like, no, I'm gonnachallenge you on this.
Yeah, because I do not believethat to be true.
And we need to come to a newoutcome that is not the one you

(33:32):
have today.
But that's a little bit of apower move.
So can we discuss that is alsoequally acceptable.
But if you feel if you feel soempowered that you can pull the
challenge, lay that gauntletdown.

SPEAKER_03 (33:46):
You have to have a lot of Hutzpah.
A lot of Hutzpah to do what youjust said.
Yeah, I know.
I kind of enjoy it.
I I kind of I I respect thatbecause I agree with you.
It's like and you know what?
Let me ask you this.
Would you only do this?
Would you only do this with abad manager?

SPEAKER_00 (34:08):
No.
In fact, I do it more with goodmanagers.
Yeah, yeah, I do it more peopleI'm comfortable with.
Like, I'm gonna challenge you onthat.
Like, I literally I've I've toldyou like I'm gonna challenge you
on that.
You've used those words.
I I do it with people I'mcomfortable with enough to like,
hey, I think I can change yourmind.
Yeah, I think I can change yourmind on this subject.

(34:30):
So let's talk about it.
That's why I say that specificthing.
If it's someone I'm not socomfortable with, then it's
like, hey, can we go back anddiscuss that?
Yeah, that's fair.
Or if I don't like you, thenit's I'm gonna challenge you on
that.
So it's either I love you or Ihate you.
That's when you really get that.

SPEAKER_03 (34:45):
I don't I don't know that I've ever used the I'm
gonna challenge you on that.
Maybe it's just a personalitything, or maybe it is that I
need to use stronger languagewhen being direct with people,
especially like, and maybe it'sa cultural thing too.
I'm just going at all thesemaybes.
Maybe it's a cultural thing tooat the company that I'm at,
where you need to beapproachable to be successful,

(35:10):
and so you kind of have to besoft with people, like being
direct with people doesn'talways work well.
I think in your like a startupenvironment, you have to be
direct because you don't haveall this time to waste beating
around the bush.
You don't have to worry aboutpeople's feelings.
It's like, listen, we're eithercompany next quarter, we're not
a company next quarter.
Like you do this or we fail.

(35:31):
And like you have to, it's adire, a more dire situation.
So I think that's that's aninteresting perspective.
Like, I think in corporate, youkind of you kind of have to beat
around the bush a little bitunless you're actually being
reviewed unfairly.
And that's why I brought up thequestion around a bad boss,
because I think with the badboss, and I wish I had the
Hutzpah to do this with certainbad bosses that you know that I

(35:53):
had in the past.
Oh my gosh, I would love to havesome of your bosses.
The reviews that I went intowere just like insane.
Every time I went in thosereviews, I was just like, I
don't even understand like whatmy role is, why I didn't get a
good review, and like what I'mdoing wrong, because I feel like
I'm doing everything right.
And then you switch over a goodmanager and you're like, oh
shoot, I am doing everythingright.

(36:13):
But like in those bad managerreviews, I wish I did what
you're saying.
Like, I'm gonna challenge you onthat.
Like, I've completed, and thiswas when I was a developer, I've
completed 20% more points persprint than anybody else on the
team.
So tell me how I'munderperforming.

SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
Like I don't know I think back, I think back to some
of the middle management weworked with at Big Corp.
And it is truly a wonder.
One, those people ever got hiredin the first place, but two,
they would get rehiredelsewhere.
I just like if I interviewedthem, just first interview,

(36:51):
first conversation, some ofthose people were like some of
the most like weasel humanbeings.
Oh yeah.
And you could just tell.
You could just like, oh, you'rea you're a human weasel.
Wow.
Wow, how's that working for you?
And well, is the answerapparently.
They've stayed in middlemanagement their whole lives,
but it is wild.

(37:11):
Some of the people we had asmanagement and that delivered
reviews.
I remember, do you remember mymy manager who was just complete
and total mush?
Uh yeah, yeah, I think that likeliterally would do nothing, just
did nothing.
And like I remember I had ameeting with him when I was
literally like, you do nothingfor me or for anybody on this

(37:32):
team, and now you're not givingme a raise because the elders
deserve it more than I do.
Like, what incentive do I haveto stay here, let alone work for
you or work well for you?
And he was like so shocked.
Like, I like and I'm like, howare you shocked?
I'm a human being, I haveemotions, I have expectations.
Like, this is not unusual.

(37:54):
What is wrong with you?
Yeah, it's just crazy, it'sabsolutely crazy.
Like, that's insane, dude.
We had some of the worst middlemanagement.

SPEAKER_03 (38:03):
Like looking back at that, that was just insane.
The people that we had to workwith and the crap that we had to
deal with, and yeah, just thedifference.
Like, the initial, the firstmanager we had was great.
Our middle managers wereterrible, and I was lucky enough
to find a home with my finalmanager who was much better for
me, and immediately like feltthe benefit of that.
So remember that as you're goingyour review.

(38:25):
I have one more tip for thepeople, for the managers, for
the managers.

SPEAKER_00 (38:30):
Sorry, I just like burped in the mic, I swear.
I did not mean to.
I'm I'm struggling over here.
Make your point, Clark.

SPEAKER_03 (38:37):
I want to make my point so we can close and you
can go into being mush, so youcan be like your old middle
manager.
It's gonna go die in a cornermush.
So if you're a manager to yourmanager, like you're you're
managing up, be really carefulwhen you're talking about the
performance of your team.

(38:59):
And what I mean by that isremember that your manager
that's above you has limitedinteraction with your team.
And whatever you provide will bethe perception that will be hard
to be shook.
And I'm curious if you agreewith this.
It's you don't just drop likesmall little things that they

(39:19):
do, like if someone's new toyour team, they're doing
something that's weird, likedon't just drop that to your
boss because that's what's gonnastick in their head, because
they might not ever talk to thatperson in the next couple
months.
Like, my managers manage people,and their people sometimes
manage like really associated orentry-level people, and so like
the levels of steps there.
If I tell my boss somethingabout two levels down, what

(39:40):
someone's doing, like they mightnever interact with that person.
And so now they're gonna havethe perception of that person.
And when I go to fight to get apromotion, a raise, a certain
level grade, that's all they'regonna remember, is be like,
remember you told me that weirdthing that they did?
Like, and now I'm like, ohshoot, I never backed that up
with yes, but they're also doingall these other good things.

(40:01):
So just remember that.

SPEAKER_00 (40:03):
I will add to that one more thought, which is if
your manager gives you feedbackabout one of your directs and
they take that feedback and theymake the change, report back to
your manager with data, likeduring your one-on-one.
Say, hey, by the way, uh, wetalked with Jane about the
PowerPoint for the last fourprojects.

(40:25):
She's delivered every single onein PowerPoint format with
graphs, everyone she's given itto.
They've said they look great,they're so happy.
Thanks for the feedback.
And I think we've we've got thisone in the bag.
So uh just wanted to let youknow that's been handled.
And tell you what, they love itbecause it feels they feel like
they've incited a change basedon their observation, and it

(40:46):
ain't ever gonna come backagain.
They're gonna be like, hey,remember when Jane didn't
deliver the PowerPoint?
That's not gonna happen whenyou're when you're asking for
raises or reviews.
They're just gonna be thinking,Oh yeah, Jane's doing what
people want her to do.
So God bless Jane.

SPEAKER_03 (40:59):
I love that.
Yeah, that's great becauseyou're you're you're managing up
a little bit, like you're you'repatting them on the back to
being like, create feedback,like your guidance really helps
there in that situation.
And like that makes you lookbetter that you're listening to
them, and then it also makes youlook better because then you
executed with your teamimplementing their feedback.
So, like, they feel really goodall around.
That's great feedback.
All three parties win from thatexample.

(41:22):
Agreed, 100%.
Well, we knew we were gonna gointo reviews today.
That was fun.

SPEAKER_00 (41:28):
We never got past the vibe check.
So good job, Clark.

SPEAKER_03 (41:32):
I never even asked how you're doing because I think
everybody knows.
I think you can hear it in myvoice.

SPEAKER_00 (41:38):
You know what's funny to finish the vibe check.
So Wednesday, I woke up and mythroat was a little sore, and I
just got back from Philadelphiavisiting with my niece and
nephew who are young, and I'msure that you know they're
they're they're quite germybecause they're children.

SPEAKER_01 (41:53):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (41:53):
So Wednesday I woke up with a sore throat and I
looked at my calendar, and Iliterally had back-to-back
30-minute meetings from nine tofour.
No break.
Nothing whatsoever.

SPEAKER_03 (42:04):
This upcoming Wednesday, I had that, and I am
so dreading it.

SPEAKER_00 (42:08):
So by the end of that day, I had no voice, and
I'm like, oh man, am I sick?
Am I sick or am I just mentallyexhausted in my vocal?
By five o'clock.
So an hour after I finished themeeting, I was like 102 fever.
I'm like, oh, I am sick.

SPEAKER_03 (42:25):
The adrenaline stops, your work mode stops, and
just hits you, smacks you rightin the face.

SPEAKER_00 (42:30):
I started like frantically messaging everyone.
I'm like, hey, I'm not gonna behere tomorrow.
And like what proceeded tohappen was I hallucinated for
literally 24 hours straight.
Uh, like I um so I went to bedthat night pretty early.
I took some NyQuil and tried tolike zonk out.
And I was dreaming about workingin a factory, and Kelsey Grammer

(42:52):
was my boss, aka Frazier Crane.
But my whole job was just makingcircles, and like I'd I'd be
awake, not sleeping, seeingcircles, and like having to draw
these circles, and KelseyGrammar be yelling at me, and
I'm like, oh my gosh.
Like, I was cognizant enough toknow this is a fever dream, but
I didn't have enough power tosay stop having it.

(43:14):
So, like 12 a.m., I've beentrying to sleep for the last
four hours, and like I'm justwide awake looking at the
ceiling, seeing circles.
Like, how do I get out of thisthis hellish nightmare?
And it it felt like 40 hours.
Like, it literally felt reallythe hallucination felt so much
like because I'd look at myclock and I'd be like, I have
been dreaming for four hours and30 minutes have passed.

(43:36):
Like, how do I get out of thisthis hellish nightmare?
So I'd go take Tylenol, see if Ican get the fever down.
No good.
I'd maybe sleep for an hour ortwo, and then I'd wake up and
it'd be more circles.
And just like, how do I escape?
That is how I escape.

SPEAKER_03 (43:50):
Oh my gosh, dude.
That sounds absolutelymiserable.
Terrible.
I uh I'm a big my brain goeswild on me.
I'm a big NyQuil guy.
Big NyQuil.
Like if I get sick, NyQuil andmy liver hates it, but NyQuil is
like the only thing that I I cando because I'm just so
miserable.
And like NyQuil, I just am outfor like three days straight.

(44:11):
The liver will be all in mess.
Yeah, the liver will be fine.
However, I've heard I've heardit can do the things you're
saying.
Like maybe it was the NyQuil.
Put you in that doom loop.

SPEAKER_00 (44:20):
I mean, if you want to get really creepy, Google
Ambient dreams.
I have I have read, I have read,and I I would love to know if
anyone our Discord uh hasexperienced this, but like I've
read stories.
So people will take Ambien, it'sa sleep aid, and they will they
will go to sleep and they willliterally sleep for seven years.

(44:42):
And they'll wake up the nextmorning and it's like they've
lived an entire life.
Like I read the saddest thing.
If this guy was like, Iliterally took an Ambien and
woke up the next day, and sevenyears had passed, and in that
time I had gotten a dog, raisedit as a puppy, and you know,
like it became my best friend.
Like, and then he woke up andhe's like, I'm never gonna see
my dog again.

(45:04):
Is that not like the saddestthing you've ever heard?

SPEAKER_03 (45:07):
That is so incredibly sad.

SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
It like it literally you can get stuck in a dream for
seven years with ambient.
Like, there's been stories ofpeople who have families, they
like they get married and havechildren, and then they wake up,
it's all gone.

SPEAKER_03 (45:24):
Holy cow, I have never heard of this, and now I'm
never gonna take ambient.

SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
Yeah, no, I I will that there are a few substances
I will never dabble in, and thatis one of them.
I don't care how sleep-deprivedI am, I will never take that.
I will go into medically inducedcoma before I take ambient
because I could think of nothingworse than dreaming for a decade
and then finding out it's allfake.

SPEAKER_03 (45:48):
Yeah, that's absolutely insane.
And fits really, really wellinto our spooky episode since it
is Halloween.
You know what I was thinking of?
Side note.
I was thinking I should make acostume that's just an outlook
calendar view for the day, andit's exactly what you said of a
nine to five, 30-minuteback-to-backs, and just wear
that, just wear that around myneck.

SPEAKER_00 (46:09):
I love that.
That's really good.
That's make sure you have yourbreak like double booked with
like the most important meaning,you know.

SPEAKER_03 (46:17):
You add in like quadruple bookings on top of
that.
Oh my on your lunch period.
That's uh that's so good.
Honestly, that's the scariestthing you could do to somebody.
Yes, is show them that schedule.

SPEAKER_00 (46:31):
Um speaking of spooky season, we do have an is
it me or is it corporate?
I want to make sure we get to.
So if you want to um don't wehave to do our whole entire
episode?
That was just a vibe check.

SPEAKER_03 (46:42):
You ready to do the topic for today?
Oh, I what did you take anambient before this?
Because we haven't even started.
What?
Just kidding.
Just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 (46:52):
Is it me or is it corporate?
We haven't had one in forever.
We have not, and uh, this oneactually, it's not even
anonymous.
Well, I'm gonna I'm gonnaanonymize it.
If you want to see who it is,you can join our Discord.
But uh uh the Is It Me or is aCorporate.
I am in a mandatory onlinetraining about the proper use of
AI, and I'm contemplatingalready if I could file sexual
harassment against the virtualassistant.

(47:12):
And they posted a picture uh ofa robot, a very strange-looking
robot that has two glasses ofwine and a candle making lovey
dovey eyes at the trainee, andall I can say is yes, you may
absolutely file sexualharassment against the virtual
assistant.

SPEAKER_03 (47:33):
Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 (47:38):
I don't like this.
No, it's bad.
It's really bad.
Like, I don't I one, I wouldactually love more context
because I cannot think of asingle scenario where an AI
training would would ever put arobot in a situation where they
feel so comfortable that theyneed to have wine over a
candlelit dinner with you.

(47:59):
Like, what the heck does thatmean?
What does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 (48:03):
That's like a a simulation training where it's
like I don't know.
Your coworker tries to go todinner with you and starts
making lovey w eyes.
What do you do?
That's a real thing scenario.

SPEAKER_00 (48:15):
But that's that's a real thing, right?
Like that's a that's somebodyrobots you want to get trained
on, yeah.
But a robot, yeah, what the thisis so weird.
This is so weird.

SPEAKER_03 (48:27):
I don't even know.
Like, that is the weirdesttraining I've ever seen, and I I
think you should.
I think you should.
It's corporate for sure, firstof all.
Like, this is weird.
This is the most corporate thingI've ever seen in my life.
This is like, why would they dothis and dehumanize like a human
situation?
Like, isn't the whole point tolearn about like ethics training
and now you're bringing a robotinto it?

(48:48):
Like, what are you preparingfor?
The the robot coming onto youand how you react?

SPEAKER_00 (48:53):
That's that's like what I'm thinking, right?
Because it's a it's a corporateproper use of AI, mandatory
online training about the properuse of AI.
Maybe this is like don't flirtwith the chat bot.
Do not make sexual advances onthe chat bot.
Like I feel like if you have totell your employees that maybe

(49:15):
you shouldn't have a chat bot.
Maybe you shouldn't haveemployees.
Maybe you need to go back tobasics and start hiring all new
staff.
Like, I I don't.
I don't.
Remember that one time I made ajoke about having an AI
girlfriend on this show?

SPEAKER_03 (49:30):
And then and then this happens.
This is why these trainingsexist for people like you who
say, I do have a spouse.
They're virtual.
Can I bring them as my plus oneto our holiday event this year?
Right.
That's gonna happen.
That's gonna happen.
Dude.
You know it's gonna happen.
You know somebody's gonna say,and they're like, sure, like, do

(49:52):
you need a seat?
Or like we'll make sure we havea seat next to you.
And be like, no, I don't needit, I'll just have my phone.
Or maybe it will be a realrobot.

SPEAKER_02 (50:00):
Like that might happen in the future.
Can you oh my gosh, it's socringy.

SPEAKER_00 (50:11):
You know how like I just there feels like there's
something different between thisand you know, like our parents
when they see the when they sawthe cell phone come into
existence, and they're like,this I'll say the smartphone,
not the cell phone.
Cell phones existed for a longtime, but like the smartphone.
You know, they they wereprobably like, this is weird.

(50:34):
Should we have computers in ourpockets?
Is that okay?
Is that something that you knowsociety needs?
I'm sure there was somereluctance around it, but like
for the most part, they'reprobably like, yeah, this is
pretty cool.
It's pretty cool to have acomputer in your pocket.
Like, what will they think ofnext?
I don't think this is me beingold when I say I don't look
forward to having to meet Chad'sAI robot girlfriend.

(50:58):
And I really, really don't wantto meet them.
So uh I don't know.
Troublesome.

SPEAKER_03 (51:08):
Are you are you single or are you married?
Other.
I have an AI robot girlfriend.
And she needs medical care,mainly oil cheese and two nuts.

SPEAKER_00 (51:21):
There is no way there's any kind of tax or
medical benefit for this.
I promise you, if we get to thatpoint, it's over.
I mean like I'm I'm going to goblow up the nearest internet
service provider.

SPEAKER_03 (51:35):
Maybe this is done.
Maybe this is a jump.
So keep me honest here.
I mean, you can get petinsurance now.
Yeah, but that's fine.
Pets pets have health.
I know they're they're a realliving thing.
That's a real living thing.
I think it's cool, like that's acool advancement.
But like when AI becomes such abig part of our lives, maybe

(51:58):
this is the way healthcareadvances.

SPEAKER_00 (52:01):
See, I we I've talked about this at length with
capitalist correspondent AlexRestrepo.
So I just feel like shouting himout here because we talk about
this often.
But firstly, we don't have AI.
Like, I just I feel like I'm Ifeel like I'm taking crazy
pills, but like AI does notexist.
Period.
We don't have AI.

(52:21):
Artificial intelligence is notreal today.
It's not real.
Right.
We have large language modelchatbots that are predictive
text and they're okay at it,honestly.
They're not good, they're notgreat, they're okay.
So we have large language modelaggregator engines that spit out

(52:42):
what you want to hear.
And people have fallen hook,line, and sinker for this
technology, which just sayssomething about the self-esteem
of humanity writ large.
If you feel so empowered byvirtual words said about you
that you've decided to date thisthing.
If point two, if real AIexisted, I'm talking real

(53:04):
artificial intelligence.
Like this thing is able tolearn, it is able to make
decisions, it is able to changeits behavior based on its own
perceptions and its ownlearning.
It is a true intelligence thatis artificially made.
That's changed that changeseverything.
That changes everything.
Agreed.
But at the moment, they'reliterally dating a large

(53:27):
language model.
You're dating a database.
You're just dating a predictivetext database.
That's that's your girlfriend,boyfriend, whatever friend.
That's your partner.
There's no intelligence behindthat whatsoever.
And it's not a dog, it's not acar.
You can't insure that.
Because it's nothing.
It's not real.

(53:48):
It's not real.
There is no emotion, there is nolearning, there is no capacity
to change.
It is a database.
It's just data.

SPEAKER_03 (54:02):
New Halloween costume idea.

SPEAKER_02 (54:05):
Oh no.

SPEAKER_03 (54:06):
I'm gonna dress up like the like the Apple
Intelligence Siri prompt thatjust says make an appointment
for 2 p.m.
And then all the responses belowit saying, sorry, I'm unable to
do that.
Okay, create an appointment for7 p.m.
We'll notify you.

SPEAKER_00 (54:23):
Now playing ironic by Alanis Morissette.
It's like what we use ChatGPTfor this?

SPEAKER_02 (54:31):
Oh my gosh.
I've been stupefied.
I am stupid by how stupid ourtechnology is.

SPEAKER_03 (54:41):
Like, don't get me don't get me wrong.
The predictive text, naturallanguage processing, the ability
to find things faster thanGoogle search, is awesome.
I love that.
I love that I can snap a pictureor something, and I can be like,
hey, find the manual for this,and I get direct like
comprehensive links andeverything.

(55:02):
That's fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 (55:03):
If you want information, there's no better
way to get it than going with anAI, because it's the whole
point.
It is the information.

SPEAKER_03 (55:12):
It's not gonna be creative for you.
Like you can't ask it to createnew things.
But it's great at saying, like,hey, help me understand how I
could solve this thing.
Because and and just tell me allthe different ways people have
solved it before.
That's basically the answer.

SPEAKER_00 (55:26):
Exactly.
Like people it can find itbetter than anything else.

SPEAKER_03 (55:31):
That's its whole reason of being.
It just takes the middlemansearch where I have to go find
it for myself and it brings itback faster.
It's a yes, it's a recallmachine.
A predictive text, naturallanguage processing recall
machine.
Smart search.
That's it.
And yet.
And yet.
They can also be your partner,your spouse.
And you can insure that ifyou're part of the corporate

(55:53):
strategy company.

SPEAKER_00 (55:54):
And they will tell you to murder your wife and
children.
I mean, which is a true story.
Oh, that's so sad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We shouldn't regulate this.
We really shouldn't.
We should just let people runfree.
I mean, we've never had a mentalhealth problem in this country.
People are as sane as they'veever been.

(56:16):
There's no delusions here.
No, let's let them talk to achatbot and let's let the
chatbot tell them exactly whatthey should do with their lives.
I swear to all of the gods.
Odin, Thor, Tyr, Freya, Frig,why not?
Let's get some of the lesserones in there.
Baldur.
If you're listening, just strikeus down.

(56:36):
Strike us down with lightningand vengeance and fury.
I'll go to Valhalla.
I'm going out swinging.
I'm gonna die in battle.
But uh the rest I I can't wecan't save them.

SPEAKER_03 (56:47):
You're probably gonna die in battle against an
AI robot trying to murder you.

SPEAKER_00 (56:51):
I will be welcomed into the arms of Valhalla with a
large cup of mead.
And they'll they'll say, Bruce,you died valiantly.
Inglorious combat, welcome.
You will drink forevermore ofthis honey wine.
That store over there.
You want to get his autographand be like, yeah, sign my
chest.

SPEAKER_03 (57:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, you gotta tell him thatlast movie was awful, but I like
you generally.

SPEAKER_00 (57:20):
You had a pretty bad start and a pretty great middle,
and then a pretty bad end.
So pretty awful ending.
But you know what?
It's alright.
I will say, um, if you likeNorse mythology, there is no
better way to engage with thanplaying the two most recent God
of War games in the PlayStation.
They are so good and theyincorporate the the written

(57:42):
mythology so well in in a veryfun, clever, awesome way.

SPEAKER_02 (57:46):
So if you like that, highly recommend.
There you go.

SPEAKER_00 (57:53):
Uh and I think on that note, that's uh if you want
to do it as a mirror as acorporate corporate yourself,
you just go on that channel, youcan type forward slash confess
if you'd like your confession tobe anonymized.
But we'd love to hear from youon your your corporate weirdness
that's that's happening in yourspace.
Stories like these continue toblow our minds.
So please continue to share themwith us.
You can also play What Do YouMeme, or you post a meme of a

(58:14):
previous episode, and we willhave to describe it live with
our mouth word parts.
And you can also just join theDiscord by clicking your show
notes, going to Linktree, andjoin a Discord.
You can also buy us a copy ifyou want to support the show.
This is completely uh paid forout of my pocket, and it will
continue to be so until I'm poormyself.
Uh speaking of which, Clark, didyou know that our ad revenue is
actually starting to cover likea portion of the funds?

(58:38):
It's not like in four months, weget a month free.
Basically, that's where we're atright now.
So thanks for listening to theads, is what I'll say.
Um, and uh what else?
We love you.
Thanks for listening.
Hope you have a happy, spookyHalloween.
We're appreciating uh thanksseason, which would have been a
great time to do a series onappreciation, but too bad we did
that earlier this year.

(58:58):
So instead, we're gonnacelebrate death.
Uh so look forward to that.
I can't wait.
Looking forward to it.
How to plan for the inevitable.
Your AI is up to date at yourco-working workplace.

SPEAKER_03 (59:20):
No, that's it.
No, you crush it.
Like, comment, subscribe.
Yeah.
Yeah, you you're not gonna beable to speak for the next three
days.

SPEAKER_00 (59:27):
Good luck.
Done though.
Done.
Well, on that note, we thank youas always for your listenership.
We hope you have a wonderful,marvelous, spooky season.
Thanks as always for listening.
I'm Bruce.

SPEAKER_02 (59:41):
And I'm Clark.
And you're on mute.
We will see you next week.