November 12, 2025 • 32 mins
Why is Mark Zuckerberg so obsessed with the Roman Empire?
Why is Peter Thiel so obsessed with the Antichrist?
Why does Sam Altman want $7 trillion dollars for an uncharted course to an unknown destination?
And how can be build AI models and an AI company based on principles of kinship and reciprocity?
In my ongoing exploration of what's rotten in Silicon Valley tech innovation and the ideologies driving it, last time I talked about the pandemic of what I called the Apollonian Mind Virus, a tendency throughout the modern world to favor cold, disembodied hyperrationality and cognitive intelligence over all other ways of knowing and being, over intuition, emotional intelligence, embodiment, and wisdom. This Apollonian orientation toward nature has ushered in what Sam Altman has dubbed the Intelligence Age. "Apollonian" describes the worldview and theories of intelligence behind current approaches to AI.
Today, inspired by Native American thinkers like Jack D. Forbes and Robin Wall Kimmerer, as well as Karen Hao’s work, I explore an adjacent pandemic of the mind or sickness of spirit that is insatiable, extractive, and exploitative: The hungry ghost of the Windigo. I argue that current approaches to AI are largely the result of these two features of the modern, Western ethos—the interwoven helix of the Apollonian Mind and the Windigo soul sickness. I then close this post by beginning to explore whether there is a better way to innovate and evolve, collectively.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
The question I'm asking, and Iwant to keep attempting to
(00:03):
answer, as I record theseepisodes, is whether, given the
forces behind AI today, it canbe transformed or alchemized
into a force for the benefit ofthe larger human and non human
world. Can AI be created orrepurposed to subvert the very
Apollonian and Windigo ethosthat it arose out of
(00:33):
Welcome to cosmic intelligence,a Podcast where we explore the
intersection of philosophycosmology, consciousness and
emerging technologies likeartificial intelligence. If
you're new here, I'm Chad, aphilosopher, technologist,
product manager, yoga teacherand attorney based in Los
Angeles.
(01:01):
Can we create an AI for thepeople by moving from Empire
technologies to humanetechnology innovation and human
stewardship? That's what I wantto explore today on the podcast.
My intention here, as always, isto speak as honestly, directly
and humbly as I can as a decenthuman being. If what I'm saying
(01:24):
sounds radical, it's becausethat's the way the terms of the
debate have been framed by thelong standing paradigms of the
subject object, split andfrantic, endless growth for its
own sake. In my ongoingexploration of what's rotten in
Silicon Valley tech innovationand the ideologies that are
driving that innovation. Lasttime I talked about the pandemic
(01:46):
of what I call the Apollonianmind virus, this tendency
throughout the modern world tofavor cold, disembodied, hyper
rationality and cognitiveintelligence over all other ways
of knowing and being, overintuition, emotional
intelligence, embodiment andwisdom. This Apollonian
orientation towards nature hasushered in what Sam Altman has
(02:07):
dubbed the intelligence age. SoApollonian for me, describes the
worldview and the theories ofintelligence that are behind the
current approaches to AI today Iexplore an adjacent pandemic of
the mind, or sickness of spiritthat is insatiable, extractive
and exploitative, the HungryGhost of the Wendigo. I argue
(02:29):
that current approaches to AIare largely the result of these
two features of the modernWestern ethos, the interwoven
helix of the Apollonian mind andthe Windigo soul sickness. I
will then close this episode bybeginning to explore whether
there is a better way toinnovate and evolve.
Collectively. As a reminder forthose who are new, here, I am
(02:51):
examining the Silicon Valleyideologies that are driving
artificial intelligenceinnovation today, because I
think there is a better way tobuild an engine for creating a
more human future. I agree withanthropic CEO and founder Dario
Amadei that AI should be a forcefor human progress. I just think
the word human should representall of humanity that's alive
(03:12):
today. To be explicit, thequestions I am attempting to
answer on this podcast and on mysub stack and on my YouTube
channel are the following, firstin light of the fact that
technology innovation is theperfection of our Apollonian
worldview and a voracious,extractive colonialist force
that I and others call theWindigo, I'll talk about that
(03:35):
more in a second. Can we find away to make technologies like aI
serve humanity rather thanforcing humanity to be more
machine like second is anevolutionary, liberatory and
humane interplay betweenconscious technologies like
kriya and meditation andmaterial technologies like AI
and the internet. Possible.
Third and finally, how can webecome more fully human
(03:59):
alongside technologicalinnovation, instead of
outsourcing our evolution tomachines, all of these questions
arose within me in a singlemoment during a conscious AI
retreat in Northern Californiathis year, when I realized in
horror that a majority of theattendees were perfectly willing
to outsource their Evolution tomachines to see humans as mere
(04:20):
algorithms and to follow thecurrent extractive approach to
AI innovation wherever it leads,if these self styled Buddhists
and conscious technologists withgood intentions are afflicted
with the Windigo sickness Idescribe in a second, what can
we do? So this episode isanother step toward answering
the many questions that arose atthat retreat, and is primarily
(04:42):
focused on the first one,addressing this Windigo mindset
that drives technologyinnovation today. Okay, so what
is the Windigo as an Americanman of European descent, I am
intensely curious about why.
Alongside the scientific andindustrial revolutions, the
(05:03):
nation state, civil and commonlaw and capitalism, the lasting
legacy of Europe is colonialism,or maybe alongside is the wrong
word. Maybe those are allvarious strands of a unified
force or ethos. After all, theyare all instruments of
distancing the human from natureand exerting absolute control
(05:24):
over the natural world, ofexerting what Joanna Macy called
power over Native Americanwriters like Jack D Forbes and
Robin wall Kimmerer call thisextractive consumptive force
behind colonialism. The Whiteygo or windy go after an
Algonquin myth about avoracious, insatiable ghoul who
(05:44):
wanders the world, devouringeverything and everyone it
encounters, for these NativeAmerican thinkers and activists,
this Wendigo force is anepidemic of the mind, or
Spiritual sickness characterizedby insatiable greed, aggression,
domination and objectification.
Author Paul Levy has alsowritten about the Indigo as a
(06:04):
mind virus and a pandemic. Soyou know, a voracious,
insatiable, extractive force, Ithink, also describes the ethos
behind artificial intelligenceinnovation pretty accurately. In
other words, where AI itself isa sort of echo of the Apollonian
mind that I talked about lasttime, this unpredictable,
(06:27):
schizophrenic savant, thearrogant, bellicose ethos behind
it is the Windigo, this hungryghost of unbounded extraction
and consumption for its ownsake. One of the books that got
me thinking about all this thisyear was empire of AI by Karen
Howe. In the book, Karen Howeargues that major AI companies
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operate much like theimperialist empires of the age
of discovery by engaging indigital colonialism, extraction
of resources, exploitation oflabor, and the concentration of
power and wealth under aunifying, self justifying
ideology. She doesn't call itthe Windigo, but in her book,
she thoroughly documents thesymptoms of this sickness among
(07:08):
AI companies in terms ofextraction. Howe shows in her
book that large language modelslike Chad, GPT or Claude require
enormous physical resources inthe form of energy and clean
water, to the detriment of localecosystems and communities, and
this urgent, voraciousconsumption of resources by
multiple companies is justifiedby what is primarily an
(07:30):
unfounded promise of futurebenefit. After all, llms are not
likely to lead to AGI or superintelligence, as I've talked
about before, and have so faroffered minimal benefits for
customers and companies who areusing it, especially in
proportion to the resources thatare required. Not only that, but
these AI systems are trained onthe creative work of millions of
(07:54):
humans in an extractive way,ignoring, for example,
intellectual property rights, toput it more plainly, the
unrealized promise of superintelligence and some future
automation Utopia has fed a selffueling investing frenzy where
AI companies are round trippingover a trillion dollars.
Furthermore, as Howe illustratesin her book, AI models are
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primarily trained on the hidden,cheap and traumatizing labor of
labelers and content moderatorsin the Global South, workers in
places like Kenya, Venezuela,India and the Philippines are
treated as undervalued andexpendable by the AI companies.
All these externalities arehidden behind a smoke screen of
utopian visions and economicnecessity, where the good guys
(08:37):
of Silicon Valley must defeatthe bad guys in China in this
kind of zero sum game youso inspired by the work of
(09:05):
Forbes and Kimmerer and how Ihave come to see the Silicon
Valley innovation ethos asdeeply Windigo. In other words,
technology innovation today isdriven in large part by this
kind of like mental illness orspiritual sickness. What else
would explain the release of anapp like open AI Sora or Marc
andreessen's Techno optimistmanifesto, or Peter thiel's
(09:27):
rants about the arrival of theAntichrist and not wanting
humanity to survive. It's noaccident that Peter Thiel is
describing opposition to theWindigo essentially as the
Antichrist. These are archetypalforces that have been at odds
ever since the dawn ofcivilization. But to the Windigo
mind slowing down to regulatetechnology or consider the needs
(09:49):
of the earth and all the peopleon it stands in opposition to
thiel's mechanistic messianicmission other billionaires like
Elon Musk and. Mark Zuckerbergare also infected by this
Windigo sickness. Why else wouldbillions of dollars not be
enough to satisfy them? Why elsewould they envision a mechanical
future where humans exist onlyas simulations in the cloud, and
(10:10):
why would they behave likesociopaths, completely lacking
in humility and empathy, whereasthe hyper rational, Apollonian
mind is a legitimate way ofapproaching the world, so long
as it's balanced by thecreative, intuitive Dionysian,
this Indigo tendency is nothingmore than a sickness. There is
nothing redeeming about theWindigo mentality. I'm so
(10:31):
curious like, why are we likethis? As Robin wall Kimmerer
reminds us this Indigo tendencylives within each of us, but
gazing back over human history,it seems to have metastasized
primarily in Europe and then inthe European colonies. So where
did this European Windigo comefrom? Like? Why was Europe so
(10:54):
industrious, belligerent andcolonialist for so long? There
are a number of sort ofinterlocking factors that kind
of led to this Windigo mentalityin Europe over the centuries.
Scholars think it was acombination of essentially like
ecological precarity, likedeforestation and these cycles
of drought followed by harvestfollowed by drought, but also
(11:17):
this kind of othering, you know,the the viewing of people who
are not Greek or Roman asbarbarians, the ways that wheat
farming led to rapidly growingpopulations who developed
standing armies with access tobronze and then and then
eventually iron. In other words,the causes were sort of
(11:37):
environmental, cultural,political, philosophical and
technological. So these factorsare all interwoven, and it's
hard to point to just one kindof spark or original sin. You
could say, for example,deforestation led to soil
erosion, which then createdthese endless cycles of scarcity
and starvation, and thatjustified seeking more natural
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resources beyond the borders ofyour country. This happened in
primarily Greece and Rome, butthis deforestation was the
result of the need for rawmaterials for shipbuilding and
metallurgy. So it's kind of avicious cycle. But if I had to
point to one cause for thisWendigo illness, I think it's
this idea of civilization versuswild nature and the savage
(12:21):
other. Although Jack Forbespoints out that the Windigo
originated with the Egyptians,Babylonians, Assyrians and
Persians, it was the postSocratic Greeks in particular
who perfected this othering,being as they were, obsessed
with reason, order, law andcontrol the Greek city and the
cultivated field werereflections of this Apollonian
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kind of Greek orientation. Incontrast, the wild forest
represented to the ancientGreeks the dark, threatening
other containing these chaoticnatural and supernatural
dangers, like wolves, bandits,barbarians, monsters and the
Dionysian satyrs and matedsindulging in debaucherous
(13:03):
ecstatic rituals. Oh, my,speaking of barbarians, the
Greek word Barbaros wasoriginally a neutral term used
to describe anyone who didn'tspeak Greek. Basically foreign
speech to the Greek sounded likebar, bar, bar. You know, so, so
barbarian, barbarian. Soinitially it was an it was a
neutral term, but this changeddramatically in the fifth
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century BC, with the GrecoPersian Wars, suddenly the Greek
identity became that of asophisticated, liberated people
living in a simple, austeredemocracy, in stark contrast
with the supposedly decadent yetsavage tyranny of the Persian
Empire, and then, as the Romanstook over as the dominant
European empire, they borrowedthis concept of the barbarian as
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an instrument of Imperialpropaganda justifying the
violent conquest of thesupposedly savage and lawless
Gauls, Celts, Iberians andGerman tribes. The Romans saw it
as their duty to bring peace,order and civilization, a sort
of kind of Pax Romana to therest of the world. In ancient
Europe, savagely installingpeace outside one's territory
(14:08):
was seen as a form ofcivilization. And how we begin
to understand Mark Zuckerbergand Elon Musk's fascination with
ancient Rome and the larger Romebro phenomenon, and thus began
the long standing practice ofothering and projection, where
every accusation is aconfession, an unconscious habit
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perfected by a maga today, forthose afflicted with the Wendigo
sickness, violent consumption ofland and exploitation of labor
is civilization and progress,whereas the reciprocal,
sustainable lifestyles ofindigenous people is
pathologized as barbaric, savageand primitive. The savages are
(14:50):
accused of practicing humansacrifice or being cannibals,
while the civilized slaughteruntold millions of indigenous
across the globe. Job in thename of civilized European
nations, Forbes pointed out thehypocrisy of his attitude,
saying, few, if any, societieson the face of the earth have
been as avaricious, cruel,violent and aggressive as have
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certain European populations.
The rise of the Windigo was alsoan accident of geography,
because of its steep, rockylandscape and intensely hot and
dry summers, the Mediterraneanbasin is especially vulnerable
to deforestation once the treescovering a hillside are felled,
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the sun bakes the soil into ahard crust, then the winter
rains hammer this crust, rushingover the surface instead of
being absorbed. So then plowingand overgrazing make this worse.
In a way, it was this viciouscycle that the spreading
civilization never recoveredfrom because of the relentless
pressures of a growingpopulation and the need for fuel
(15:53):
and building materials.
Deforestation only acceleratedacross Europe in the Middle
Ages, by 1086, only 15% ofEngland was wooded on the eve of
the Black Death. A few centurieslater, that figure had plummeted
to 6% by the 14th century, only10% of Europe's land was
forested, and this then ledEngland and other parts of
(16:15):
Europe to switch to coal as asource for fuel, which then led
to worsening pollution and soon. In short, alongside its
trademark arrogance, theEuropean psyche became one of
resource scarcity, zero sumlogic and therefore, of conquest
by the age of discovery, themindset and machinery of
imperialism also had a powerfulmoral and legal justification.
In the 15th century, at thestart of the Age of Discovery,
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two successive popes in Romeissued a series of Papal bulls,
these decrees that gaveChristian nations a theological
and legal right to conquer thesavages who now had no rights to
land or sovereignty. And thisbecame the white man's burden to
civilize the heathen peoples ofthe world, thereby saving their
souls and giving them culture.
(17:04):
You might say that Christianity,by then, was the operating
system of colonialism about asfar from the humble love your
neighbor message of Jesus'steachings as you can get. And
now Peter thiel's framing ofanything opposed to this, when
to go tendency as the Antichristcomes into clearer focus.
Thiel's Antichrist is not ahorned figure with hooves and a
(17:25):
spiky tail, but degrowthregulation and Greta Thunberg,
precisely because those ideasare antithetical to the crazed
Wendigo mind. Again, I'm notsaying that this sickness is
inherent to being of Europeandescent or within the European
tradition, it is a spiritualsickness that can infect anyone.
Although Silicon Valley todayhas elevated it to an art form
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in the way that it approachestechnology innovation, it's more
than a desire to invade othercountries, either overtly or
covertly. It's a way ofthinking, a way of life that
thinks hyper rationally ofvoracious expansion for its own
sake, and looks to malignantgrowth as the solution to every
problem. And this is why LatinAmerican and Indian scholars
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talk about the need todecolonialize hearts and minds
to cure the infected, which isall of us now. So as we can see,
the lasting legacy of Europeancivilization is not Christianity
or secular rationalism, but theidea of endless urgent growth
and expansion at all costs. It'sthis means justifies the ends,
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ideology. And of course, it goeswithout saying that America kind
of took up the Windigo mantlefrom Europe after World War Two,
if not after the SpanishAmerican War in 1898
so although the Windigo fuel forcenturies was Christian
ideologies of superiority and afuture salvation with the
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arrival of the Apollonian mindduring the European
enlightenment, it found a morepure form of ideological fuel,
now human reason, Science andTechnology replace God as the
agent of salvation, leadinghumanity toward this techno
scientific utopia. So instead ofthe Second Coming, we now have
the singularity, where ourdigital soul will not ascend to
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heaven but to the cloud. It isthese two intertwined mindsets
or worldviews that havedominated modern civilization
and become the twin strands ofthe current approach to
artificial intelligence. Forthose of us concerned with the
current direction of AIinnovation, what can be done the
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as a countervailing forceagainst the Wendigo, the Native
American scholars I talked aboutearlier recommend a return to
indigenous principles and anindigenous worldview, one that.
Not dissimilar to thephilosophically idealist yoga
Danta worldview that my longtimelisteners will be familiar with,
briefly, the Native Americanworldview, and that of many
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other indigenous traditions, isone of kinship and
relationality, the idea that allof nature is part of a vast
family of interconnectedsubjects, and that includes
animals, plants, rivers andmountains. Within that view, the
cosmos is made up of a web ofrelationships. Therefore, all of
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one's relationships are governedby this kind of sacred
reciprocity, where one doesn'tsimply take from nature or from
another person without givingback
both the Native American andyoga Danta worldviews are
fundamentally non dual inopposition to the materialist
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subject, object dualism ofscientism, and they both see the
cosmos as fundamentallyconscious as the Anima Mundi, or
world soul. For the ancientyogis, the cosmos is Shakti, or
Brahma this divine play andcreative dance. For the Native
American tribes, the Earth is aliving, conscious mother. Even
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their core ethics of reciprocityand karma are similar in that
they underscore the fact thatbecause we are all
interconnected with othersubjects in the cosmos, any
action we take affects thewhole, of course, the imminent
Native American goal to live inharmony with the world as it is
may seem to differ from someinterpretations or
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manifestations of the yoga Dantegoal of liberation from the
cycles of birth and death, theyoga traditions that I follow
are also imminent in this way ofrecognizing that there is
nowhere else to be but in themanifest cosmos. Robin wall
Kimmerer in particular,references an Anishinaabe
prophecy of the eight fires.
According to this prophecy,humanity is currently in the
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seventh fire, where the FireKeepers retrace their steps in
order to gather up the fragmentsof songs, stories and sacred
teachings, so that the eighthfire can be kindled in a great
coming together of peoplesaround the world to walk a soft
path of wisdom, respect andreciprocity. Kimmerer
characterizes this as asynthesis of indigenous wisdom
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from around the world,indigenous European knowledge,
indigenous Asian knowledge andindigenous knowledge from the
Americas. Despite the immensediversity of those traditions,
for our purposes, we can boildown their varied manifestations
into a synthesis that reflectsthe Native American and East
Indian worldviews that I talkedabout earlier. So what does this
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look like in practical, concreteterms, especially in the context
of technology innovation? Isthere a way forward? In other
words, now that we've recognizedthe general shape of the
challenge, what can we do? Thehurried, myopic gambler
mentality behind the way AI iscurrently developed, where we
have Sam Altman wanting to throw$7 trillion at large language
(23:08):
models in the hopes that scalingwill lead to an ill defined
machine messiah of some kind.
You know this? This mentality isjust how business is done. This
approach to AI is a sort ofblitz scaling model that accepts
ethical and social breakage asthe cost of doing business. Who,
in their right mind, woulddeviate from this tried and true
(23:29):
path to the American dream of afrontier utopia? I mean, it
feels like I'm proposing arevolution of some kind, right,
or just being a total buzz kill.
Like, Hey everyone, let's just,let's just do it a different
way, like, let's not all make abillion dollars, right? But
there is a growing consensusthat we've hit the kind of too
big to fail era of the AIbubble. I mean, we see Michael
Burry of Big Short fame bettinga billion dollars on the AI
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bubble bursting anyway. I thinkit's time for bold proposals in
the same way that the explosionof large language models is
forcing us to forcing us toconfront philosophical and
spiritual questions about whatit means to be human and the
nature of consciousness, I thinkit's forcing us to reevaluate
other assumptions, like whatmakes for a good business model.
Because, as I am arguing in thisepisode and in this series, AI
(24:15):
is the apotheosis of thescientific revolution and its
ideologies, it seems to be thetipping point into what Thomas
Kuhn calls a paradigm shift thatunderpins scientific
revolutions, except this time,it's the beginning of a
revolution in worldviews,socioeconomic and sociopolitical
theory and approaches tobusiness. As Kimmerer suggested,
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we must walk back over where wehave been in order to gather up
only what is relevant for what'snext, fragments of wisdom and
sacred knowledge in order toshape this new paradigm. Paul
Levy suggests that the antidoteto the Wendigo virus is simply
exposing it to the light, a kindof collective shadow work. And I
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think that's part of it. Robinwell. Kimmerer proposes that we
shift our worldview and move toa gift economy, which is also
part of it, I think. And Jack DForbes suggested something
similar. So going back to thequestions that I began with, can
we find a way to make artificialintelligence that serves
humanity, rather than creating asupposed Machine God and forcing
humanity to be more machine likealthough these are big questions
(25:20):
with no easy answers, I think wecan address the challenges
presented by the double helix ofApollonian thinking and this
Wendigo sickness in three parts,each of which draws on a
different part of my ownbackground as a technology
philosopher, attorney andsoftware engineer, the first
step is talking openly andhonestly about the current state
of affairs. That was the impetusbehind this episode. It's
(25:42):
crucial, I think, that we raiseawareness of the harms of the
Windigo tendency, and cultivatetechnology leaders who are
devoid of the Wendigo sickness,leaders who understand that
every participant in the humanand non human world is
interconnected, leaders whoprioritize reciprocity. In other
words, because technologyreflects the consciousness of
(26:03):
those creating it, I thinkfinding or cultivating leaders
and innovators with their heartin the right place is paramount
in the same way that toxicstartup founders create a toxic
workplace culture that can neverbe fully remedied. Sociopathic
innovation leadership will onlylead us to a sociopathic future
full of toxic, extractivetechnologies, letting Peter
Thiel, Elon, Musk and Sam Altmanset the innovation agenda will
(26:27):
only worsen the problems thatI've highlighted in this
episode. Okay, the next step isperhaps changing the way we do
business. I mean, now that openAI has completed its for profit
transformation, I think it'stime to look in the other
direction, not just at thenonprofit model, but to
corporate structures for AI,companies and organizations that
fundamentally change theincentives, including public
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benefit corporations or evensteward ownership, if you're not
familiar. Steward ownership is apurpose driven business
structure that prioritizes acompany's long term purpose and
well being over maximizing shortterm profits for external
shareholders, and it does thisby separating voting rights, the
control of the company, fromeconomic rights or the profit to
(27:10):
ensure that the company isguided by its mission and that
those who are actively involvedin Its operation are properly
incentivized to hew to thatmission. In other words, a
steward owned company is ownedby its purpose. There are no
shareholders who can exert unduepressure on short term financial
gains in steward ownership, theVoting Rights remain with those
(27:33):
personnel who are activelymanaging the company and
connected to its operations andpurpose. And those rights cannot
be sold or inherited. They don'tgenerate any financial returns.
Instead, they stay with thecompany over its lifetime as
personnel change any profitsgenerated by the business, and
all the assets are held insupport of the company's
(27:53):
mission, so they are reinvestedin the business to cover capital
costs, or sometimes distributedto employees. For example, had
open AI begun as a steward ownedcompany, it would have been
forced to stick to its originalmission to ensure that AGI
benefits all of humanity.
Instead, we get Sora two andpleas from its CFO to have the
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US government guarantee itsinsanely risky investments,
although steward ownership is acorporate structure that has
been around for over a century,it is still pretty rare. One US
based example is the outdoorclothing company Patagonia, who
transitioned to stewardownership in 2022 they leveraged
existing us trust and corporatelaws, creating two entities, the
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Patagonia purpose Trust, whichis the steward and the holdfast
collective, this nonprofit thatmanages the profits and
reinvests them back into thebusiness, primarily to address
the environmental crisis. Nodoubt, incorporating as steward
owned is challenging. Not onlyis the corporate structure
complex from a legal standpoint,but raising capital requires
(28:58):
finding niche, mission driveninvestors who understand that
there can never be an exit ormassive returns on investment,
let alone a say in how thecompany operates, still imagine
the first AI models and AIcompany built with a sense of
kinship and reciprocity andstructured to remain that way, I
think it would resonate with alot of people And stand as an
(29:20):
attractive alternative to thecrazed Wendigo AI systems on
offer today.
Finally, what if we builttechnology itself on the unsold
principles of kinship andreciprocity, instead of
voracious extraction andconsumption? We could call these
alternative technologies hearthtechnologies, where Empire
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technologies like social mediaor Sora two extract value from
the periphery and concentrate itin the center. A hearth
technology radiates warmthoutward instead of atomizing
individuals. A hearth technologycreates and empowers
communities. A hearth technologyimplements reciprocity by
(30:03):
cultivating lastingrelationships built on trust and
a kind of give and take, insteadof on monopolizing attention and
fostering addiction. Could an AImodel or system be built this
way? There are already a fewindigenous AI systems that are
trained ethically on indigenousdata, primarily in Australia.
I'll drop a couple examples inthe show notes. But what about a
(30:26):
general purpose hearth AI? Maybewe can draw inspiration from
some of these new EU basedmodels that are coming out of
Europe, that were ethicallytrained and that are EU AI Act
compliant. I don't know. Theseare all just kind of inchoate
early ideas about how to make AIin a way that's not when to go
(30:48):
anyway. We could take a sort oflike negative inspiration from
Elon Musk and how he's creatingthis, like anti woke AI with
grok, and we could, we couldcreate AI models and AI systems
that embody an ensouled orindigenous worldview, and that
could includeinterconnectedness, reciprocity
and community. In fact, I'vebeen talking recently to some
(31:11):
friends and colleagues aboutcreating just such an AI, and I
know there are several inchoateattempts at a sort of like Gaia
AI that are in the works acrossdifferent groups around the
world that I've talked to. Iwould also be interested in
starting a sort of Think Tank toexplore these ideas. So I'm
going to keep talking about thisand explore all that in future
episodes. So I started writingthis episode in an attempt to
(31:38):
name and understand theconsumptive extractive force,
this Wendigo force that drivesAI innovation, and honestly, I
had no idea that it would leadto me talking about alternative
corporate structures or hearthtechnologies. Like why does
technology innovation have torun on these feast and famine
cycles of exuberant hype andduplicative investment followed
(32:01):
by enormous crashes. Why doestechnology innovation have to
feel like gambling? I think it'sbecause of these Windigo
tendencies. My journey ofstumbling into the myth and
metaphor of the Windigo has beenso enlightening, but also has
only just begun. I know thereare already organizations out
there exploring these questionsfrom an explicitly indigenous
(32:22):
standpoint. So I want to offergratitude and respect to all who
have come before. My onlyintention here is to raise
awareness and explore upliftingpaths forward. More on all of
this very soon, you you.
The question I'm asking, and Iwant to keep attempting to
(00:03):
answer, as I record theseepisodes, is whether, given the
forces behind AI today, it canbe transformed or alchemized
into a force for the benefit ofthe larger human and non human
world. Can AI be created orrepurposed to subvert the very
Apollonian and Windigo ethosthat it arose out of
(00:33):
Welcome to cosmic intelligence,a Podcast where we explore the
intersection of philosophycosmology, consciousness and
emerging technologies likeartificial intelligence. If
you're new here, I'm Chad, aphilosopher, technologist,
product manager, yoga teacherand attorney based in Los
Angeles.
(01:01):
Can we create an AI for thepeople by moving from Empire
technologies to humanetechnology innovation and human
stewardship? That's what I wantto explore today on the podcast.
My intention here, as always, isto speak as honestly, directly
and humbly as I can as a decenthuman being. If what I'm saying
(01:24):
sounds radical, it's becausethat's the way the terms of the
debate have been framed by thelong standing paradigms of the
subject object, split andfrantic, endless growth for its
own sake. In my ongoingexploration of what's rotten in
Silicon Valley tech innovationand the ideologies that are
driving that innovation. Lasttime I talked about the pandemic
(01:46):
of what I call the Apollonianmind virus, this tendency
throughout the modern world tofavor cold, disembodied, hyper
rationality and cognitiveintelligence over all other ways
of knowing and being, overintuition, emotional
intelligence, embodiment andwisdom. This Apollonian
orientation towards nature hasushered in what Sam Altman has
(02:07):
dubbed the intelligence age. SoApollonian for me, describes the
worldview and the theories ofintelligence that are behind the
current approaches to AI today Iexplore an adjacent pandemic of
the mind, or sickness of spiritthat is insatiable, extractive
and exploitative, the HungryGhost of the Wendigo. I argue
(02:29):
that current approaches to AIare largely the result of these
two features of the modernWestern ethos, the interwoven
helix of the Apollonian mind andthe Windigo soul sickness. I
will then close this episode bybeginning to explore whether
there is a better way toinnovate and evolve.
Collectively. As a reminder forthose who are new, here, I am
(02:51):
examining the Silicon Valleyideologies that are driving
artificial intelligenceinnovation today, because I
think there is a better way tobuild an engine for creating a
more human future. I agree withanthropic CEO and founder Dario
Amadei that AI should be a forcefor human progress. I just think
the word human should representall of humanity that's alive
(03:12):
today. To be explicit, thequestions I am attempting to
answer on this podcast and on mysub stack and on my YouTube
channel are the following, firstin light of the fact that
technology innovation is theperfection of our Apollonian
worldview and a voracious,extractive colonialist force
that I and others call theWindigo, I'll talk about that
(03:35):
more in a second. Can we find away to make technologies like aI
serve humanity rather thanforcing humanity to be more
machine like second is anevolutionary, liberatory and
humane interplay betweenconscious technologies like
kriya and meditation andmaterial technologies like AI
and the internet. Possible.
Third and finally, how can webecome more fully human
(03:59):
alongside technologicalinnovation, instead of
outsourcing our evolution tomachines, all of these questions
arose within me in a singlemoment during a conscious AI
retreat in Northern Californiathis year, when I realized in
horror that a majority of theattendees were perfectly willing
to outsource their Evolution tomachines to see humans as mere
(04:20):
algorithms and to follow thecurrent extractive approach to
AI innovation wherever it leads,if these self styled Buddhists
and conscious technologists withgood intentions are afflicted
with the Windigo sickness Idescribe in a second, what can
we do? So this episode isanother step toward answering
the many questions that arose atthat retreat, and is primarily
(04:42):
focused on the first one,addressing this Windigo mindset
that drives technologyinnovation today. Okay, so what
is the Windigo as an Americanman of European descent, I am
intensely curious about why.
Alongside the scientific andindustrial revolutions, the
(05:03):
nation state, civil and commonlaw and capitalism, the lasting
legacy of Europe is colonialism,or maybe alongside is the wrong
word. Maybe those are allvarious strands of a unified
force or ethos. After all, theyare all instruments of
distancing the human from natureand exerting absolute control
(05:24):
over the natural world, ofexerting what Joanna Macy called
power over Native Americanwriters like Jack D Forbes and
Robin wall Kimmerer call thisextractive consumptive force
behind colonialism. The Whiteygo or windy go after an
Algonquin myth about avoracious, insatiable ghoul who
(05:44):
wanders the world, devouringeverything and everyone it
encounters, for these NativeAmerican thinkers and activists,
this Wendigo force is anepidemic of the mind, or
Spiritual sickness characterizedby insatiable greed, aggression,
domination and objectification.
Author Paul Levy has alsowritten about the Indigo as a
(06:04):
mind virus and a pandemic. Soyou know, a voracious,
insatiable, extractive force, Ithink, also describes the ethos
behind artificial intelligenceinnovation pretty accurately. In
other words, where AI itself isa sort of echo of the Apollonian
mind that I talked about lasttime, this unpredictable,
(06:27):
schizophrenic savant, thearrogant, bellicose ethos behind
it is the Windigo, this hungryghost of unbounded extraction
and consumption for its ownsake. One of the books that got
me thinking about all this thisyear was empire of AI by Karen
Howe. In the book, Karen Howeargues that major AI companies
(06:47):
operate much like theimperialist empires of the age
of discovery by engaging indigital colonialism, extraction
of resources, exploitation oflabor, and the concentration of
power and wealth under aunifying, self justifying
ideology. She doesn't call itthe Windigo, but in her book,
she thoroughly documents thesymptoms of this sickness among
(07:08):
AI companies in terms ofextraction. Howe shows in her
book that large language modelslike Chad, GPT or Claude require
enormous physical resources inthe form of energy and clean
water, to the detriment of localecosystems and communities, and
this urgent, voraciousconsumption of resources by
multiple companies is justifiedby what is primarily an
(07:30):
unfounded promise of futurebenefit. After all, llms are not
likely to lead to AGI or superintelligence, as I've talked
about before, and have so faroffered minimal benefits for
customers and companies who areusing it, especially in
proportion to the resources thatare required. Not only that, but
these AI systems are trained onthe creative work of millions of
(07:54):
humans in an extractive way,ignoring, for example,
intellectual property rights, toput it more plainly, the
unrealized promise of superintelligence and some future
automation Utopia has fed a selffueling investing frenzy where
AI companies are round trippingover a trillion dollars.
Furthermore, as Howe illustratesin her book, AI models are
(08:15):
primarily trained on the hidden,cheap and traumatizing labor of
labelers and content moderatorsin the Global South, workers in
places like Kenya, Venezuela,India and the Philippines are
treated as undervalued andexpendable by the AI companies.
All these externalities arehidden behind a smoke screen of
utopian visions and economicnecessity, where the good guys
(08:37):
of Silicon Valley must defeatthe bad guys in China in this
kind of zero sum game youso inspired by the work of
(09:05):
Forbes and Kimmerer and how Ihave come to see the Silicon
Valley innovation ethos asdeeply Windigo. In other words,
technology innovation today isdriven in large part by this
kind of like mental illness orspiritual sickness. What else
would explain the release of anapp like open AI Sora or Marc
andreessen's Techno optimistmanifesto, or Peter thiel's
(09:27):
rants about the arrival of theAntichrist and not wanting
humanity to survive. It's noaccident that Peter Thiel is
describing opposition to theWindigo essentially as the
Antichrist. These are archetypalforces that have been at odds
ever since the dawn ofcivilization. But to the Windigo
mind slowing down to regulatetechnology or consider the needs
(09:49):
of the earth and all the peopleon it stands in opposition to
thiel's mechanistic messianicmission other billionaires like
Elon Musk and. Mark Zuckerbergare also infected by this
Windigo sickness. Why else wouldbillions of dollars not be
enough to satisfy them? Why elsewould they envision a mechanical
future where humans exist onlyas simulations in the cloud, and
(10:10):
why would they behave likesociopaths, completely lacking
in humility and empathy, whereasthe hyper rational, Apollonian
mind is a legitimate way ofapproaching the world, so long
as it's balanced by thecreative, intuitive Dionysian,
this Indigo tendency is nothingmore than a sickness. There is
nothing redeeming about theWindigo mentality. I'm so
(10:31):
curious like, why are we likethis? As Robin wall Kimmerer
reminds us this Indigo tendencylives within each of us, but
gazing back over human history,it seems to have metastasized
primarily in Europe and then inthe European colonies. So where
did this European Windigo comefrom? Like? Why was Europe so
(10:54):
industrious, belligerent andcolonialist for so long? There
are a number of sort ofinterlocking factors that kind
of led to this Windigo mentalityin Europe over the centuries.
Scholars think it was acombination of essentially like
ecological precarity, likedeforestation and these cycles
of drought followed by harvestfollowed by drought, but also
(11:17):
this kind of othering, you know,the the viewing of people who
are not Greek or Roman asbarbarians, the ways that wheat
farming led to rapidly growingpopulations who developed
standing armies with access tobronze and then and then
eventually iron. In other words,the causes were sort of
(11:37):
environmental, cultural,political, philosophical and
technological. So these factorsare all interwoven, and it's
hard to point to just one kindof spark or original sin. You
could say, for example,deforestation led to soil
erosion, which then createdthese endless cycles of scarcity
and starvation, and thatjustified seeking more natural
(11:59):
resources beyond the borders ofyour country. This happened in
primarily Greece and Rome, butthis deforestation was the
result of the need for rawmaterials for shipbuilding and
metallurgy. So it's kind of avicious cycle. But if I had to
point to one cause for thisWendigo illness, I think it's
this idea of civilization versuswild nature and the savage
(12:21):
other. Although Jack Forbespoints out that the Windigo
originated with the Egyptians,Babylonians, Assyrians and
Persians, it was the postSocratic Greeks in particular
who perfected this othering,being as they were, obsessed
with reason, order, law andcontrol the Greek city and the
cultivated field werereflections of this Apollonian
(12:43):
kind of Greek orientation. Incontrast, the wild forest
represented to the ancientGreeks the dark, threatening
other containing these chaoticnatural and supernatural
dangers, like wolves, bandits,barbarians, monsters and the
Dionysian satyrs and matedsindulging in debaucherous
(13:03):
ecstatic rituals. Oh, my,speaking of barbarians, the
Greek word Barbaros wasoriginally a neutral term used
to describe anyone who didn'tspeak Greek. Basically foreign
speech to the Greek sounded likebar, bar, bar. You know, so, so
barbarian, barbarian. Soinitially it was an it was a
neutral term, but this changeddramatically in the fifth
(13:23):
century BC, with the GrecoPersian Wars, suddenly the Greek
identity became that of asophisticated, liberated people
living in a simple, austeredemocracy, in stark contrast
with the supposedly decadent yetsavage tyranny of the Persian
Empire, and then, as the Romanstook over as the dominant
European empire, they borrowedthis concept of the barbarian as
(13:46):
an instrument of Imperialpropaganda justifying the
violent conquest of thesupposedly savage and lawless
Gauls, Celts, Iberians andGerman tribes. The Romans saw it
as their duty to bring peace,order and civilization, a sort
of kind of Pax Romana to therest of the world. In ancient
Europe, savagely installingpeace outside one's territory
(14:08):
was seen as a form ofcivilization. And how we begin
to understand Mark Zuckerbergand Elon Musk's fascination with
ancient Rome and the larger Romebro phenomenon, and thus began
the long standing practice ofothering and projection, where
every accusation is aconfession, an unconscious habit
(14:29):
perfected by a maga today, forthose afflicted with the Wendigo
sickness, violent consumption ofland and exploitation of labor
is civilization and progress,whereas the reciprocal,
sustainable lifestyles ofindigenous people is
pathologized as barbaric, savageand primitive. The savages are
(14:50):
accused of practicing humansacrifice or being cannibals,
while the civilized slaughteruntold millions of indigenous
across the globe. Job in thename of civilized European
nations, Forbes pointed out thehypocrisy of his attitude,
saying, few, if any, societieson the face of the earth have
been as avaricious, cruel,violent and aggressive as have
(15:12):
certain European populations.
The rise of the Windigo was alsoan accident of geography,
because of its steep, rockylandscape and intensely hot and
dry summers, the Mediterraneanbasin is especially vulnerable
to deforestation once the treescovering a hillside are felled,
(15:32):
the sun bakes the soil into ahard crust, then the winter
rains hammer this crust, rushingover the surface instead of
being absorbed. So then plowingand overgrazing make this worse.
In a way, it was this viciouscycle that the spreading
civilization never recoveredfrom because of the relentless
pressures of a growingpopulation and the need for fuel
(15:53):
and building materials.
Deforestation only acceleratedacross Europe in the Middle
Ages, by 1086, only 15% ofEngland was wooded on the eve of
the Black Death. A few centurieslater, that figure had plummeted
to 6% by the 14th century, only10% of Europe's land was
forested, and this then ledEngland and other parts of
(16:15):
Europe to switch to coal as asource for fuel, which then led
to worsening pollution and soon. In short, alongside its
trademark arrogance, theEuropean psyche became one of
resource scarcity, zero sumlogic and therefore, of conquest
by the age of discovery, themindset and machinery of
imperialism also had a powerfulmoral and legal justification.
In the 15th century, at thestart of the Age of Discovery,
(16:40):
two successive popes in Romeissued a series of Papal bulls,
these decrees that gaveChristian nations a theological
and legal right to conquer thesavages who now had no rights to
land or sovereignty. And thisbecame the white man's burden to
civilize the heathen peoples ofthe world, thereby saving their
souls and giving them culture.
(17:04):
You might say that Christianity,by then, was the operating
system of colonialism about asfar from the humble love your
neighbor message of Jesus'steachings as you can get. And
now Peter thiel's framing ofanything opposed to this, when
to go tendency as the Antichristcomes into clearer focus.
Thiel's Antichrist is not ahorned figure with hooves and a
(17:25):
spiky tail, but degrowthregulation and Greta Thunberg,
precisely because those ideasare antithetical to the crazed
Wendigo mind. Again, I'm notsaying that this sickness is
inherent to being of Europeandescent or within the European
tradition, it is a spiritualsickness that can infect anyone.
Although Silicon Valley todayhas elevated it to an art form
(17:48):
in the way that it approachestechnology innovation, it's more
than a desire to invade othercountries, either overtly or
covertly. It's a way ofthinking, a way of life that
thinks hyper rationally ofvoracious expansion for its own
sake, and looks to malignantgrowth as the solution to every
problem. And this is why LatinAmerican and Indian scholars
(18:12):
talk about the need todecolonialize hearts and minds
to cure the infected, which isall of us now. So as we can see,
the lasting legacy of Europeancivilization is not Christianity
or secular rationalism, but theidea of endless urgent growth
and expansion at all costs. It'sthis means justifies the ends,
(18:33):
ideology. And of course, it goeswithout saying that America kind
of took up the Windigo mantlefrom Europe after World War Two,
if not after the SpanishAmerican War in 1898
so although the Windigo fuel forcenturies was Christian
ideologies of superiority and afuture salvation with the
(18:54):
arrival of the Apollonian mindduring the European
enlightenment, it found a morepure form of ideological fuel,
now human reason, Science andTechnology replace God as the
agent of salvation, leadinghumanity toward this techno
scientific utopia. So instead ofthe Second Coming, we now have
the singularity, where ourdigital soul will not ascend to
(19:16):
heaven but to the cloud. It isthese two intertwined mindsets
or worldviews that havedominated modern civilization
and become the twin strands ofthe current approach to
artificial intelligence. Forthose of us concerned with the
current direction of AIinnovation, what can be done the
(19:49):
as a countervailing forceagainst the Wendigo, the Native
American scholars I talked aboutearlier recommend a return to
indigenous principles and anindigenous worldview, one that.
Not dissimilar to thephilosophically idealist yoga
Danta worldview that my longtimelisteners will be familiar with,
briefly, the Native Americanworldview, and that of many
(20:10):
other indigenous traditions, isone of kinship and
relationality, the idea that allof nature is part of a vast
family of interconnectedsubjects, and that includes
animals, plants, rivers andmountains. Within that view, the
cosmos is made up of a web ofrelationships. Therefore, all of
(20:31):
one's relationships are governedby this kind of sacred
reciprocity, where one doesn'tsimply take from nature or from
another person without givingback
both the Native American andyoga Danta worldviews are
fundamentally non dual inopposition to the materialist
(20:54):
subject, object dualism ofscientism, and they both see the
cosmos as fundamentallyconscious as the Anima Mundi, or
world soul. For the ancientyogis, the cosmos is Shakti, or
Brahma this divine play andcreative dance. For the Native
American tribes, the Earth is aliving, conscious mother. Even
(21:17):
their core ethics of reciprocityand karma are similar in that
they underscore the fact thatbecause we are all
interconnected with othersubjects in the cosmos, any
action we take affects thewhole, of course, the imminent
Native American goal to live inharmony with the world as it is
may seem to differ from someinterpretations or
(21:39):
manifestations of the yoga Dantegoal of liberation from the
cycles of birth and death, theyoga traditions that I follow
are also imminent in this way ofrecognizing that there is
nowhere else to be but in themanifest cosmos. Robin wall
Kimmerer in particular,references an Anishinaabe
prophecy of the eight fires.
According to this prophecy,humanity is currently in the
(22:02):
seventh fire, where the FireKeepers retrace their steps in
order to gather up the fragmentsof songs, stories and sacred
teachings, so that the eighthfire can be kindled in a great
coming together of peoplesaround the world to walk a soft
path of wisdom, respect andreciprocity. Kimmerer
characterizes this as asynthesis of indigenous wisdom
(22:25):
from around the world,indigenous European knowledge,
indigenous Asian knowledge andindigenous knowledge from the
Americas. Despite the immensediversity of those traditions,
for our purposes, we can boildown their varied manifestations
into a synthesis that reflectsthe Native American and East
Indian worldviews that I talkedabout earlier. So what does this
(22:45):
look like in practical, concreteterms, especially in the context
of technology innovation? Isthere a way forward? In other
words, now that we've recognizedthe general shape of the
challenge, what can we do? Thehurried, myopic gambler
mentality behind the way AI iscurrently developed, where we
have Sam Altman wanting to throw$7 trillion at large language
(23:08):
models in the hopes that scalingwill lead to an ill defined
machine messiah of some kind.
You know this? This mentality isjust how business is done. This
approach to AI is a sort ofblitz scaling model that accepts
ethical and social breakage asthe cost of doing business. Who,
in their right mind, woulddeviate from this tried and true
(23:29):
path to the American dream of afrontier utopia? I mean, it
feels like I'm proposing arevolution of some kind, right,
or just being a total buzz kill.
Like, Hey everyone, let's just,let's just do it a different
way, like, let's not all make abillion dollars, right? But
there is a growing consensusthat we've hit the kind of too
big to fail era of the AIbubble. I mean, we see Michael
Burry of Big Short fame bettinga billion dollars on the AI
(23:53):
bubble bursting anyway. I thinkit's time for bold proposals in
the same way that the explosionof large language models is
forcing us to forcing us toconfront philosophical and
spiritual questions about whatit means to be human and the
nature of consciousness, I thinkit's forcing us to reevaluate
other assumptions, like whatmakes for a good business model.
Because, as I am arguing in thisepisode and in this series, AI
(24:15):
is the apotheosis of thescientific revolution and its
ideologies, it seems to be thetipping point into what Thomas
Kuhn calls a paradigm shift thatunderpins scientific
revolutions, except this time,it's the beginning of a
revolution in worldviews,socioeconomic and sociopolitical
theory and approaches tobusiness. As Kimmerer suggested,
(24:35):
we must walk back over where wehave been in order to gather up
only what is relevant for what'snext, fragments of wisdom and
sacred knowledge in order toshape this new paradigm. Paul
Levy suggests that the antidoteto the Wendigo virus is simply
exposing it to the light, a kindof collective shadow work. And I
(24:55):
think that's part of it. Robinwell. Kimmerer proposes that we
shift our worldview and move toa gift economy, which is also
part of it, I think. And Jack DForbes suggested something
similar. So going back to thequestions that I began with, can
we find a way to make artificialintelligence that serves
humanity, rather than creating asupposed Machine God and forcing
humanity to be more machine likealthough these are big questions
(25:20):
with no easy answers, I think wecan address the challenges
presented by the double helix ofApollonian thinking and this
Wendigo sickness in three parts,each of which draws on a
different part of my ownbackground as a technology
philosopher, attorney andsoftware engineer, the first
step is talking openly andhonestly about the current state
of affairs. That was the impetusbehind this episode. It's
(25:42):
crucial, I think, that we raiseawareness of the harms of the
Windigo tendency, and cultivatetechnology leaders who are
devoid of the Wendigo sickness,leaders who understand that
every participant in the humanand non human world is
interconnected, leaders whoprioritize reciprocity. In other
words, because technologyreflects the consciousness of
(26:03):
those creating it, I thinkfinding or cultivating leaders
and innovators with their heartin the right place is paramount
in the same way that toxicstartup founders create a toxic
workplace culture that can neverbe fully remedied. Sociopathic
innovation leadership will onlylead us to a sociopathic future
full of toxic, extractivetechnologies, letting Peter
Thiel, Elon, Musk and Sam Altmanset the innovation agenda will
(26:27):
only worsen the problems thatI've highlighted in this
episode. Okay, the next step isperhaps changing the way we do
business. I mean, now that openAI has completed its for profit
transformation, I think it'stime to look in the other
direction, not just at thenonprofit model, but to
corporate structures for AI,companies and organizations that
fundamentally change theincentives, including public
(26:49):
benefit corporations or evensteward ownership, if you're not
familiar. Steward ownership is apurpose driven business
structure that prioritizes acompany's long term purpose and
well being over maximizing shortterm profits for external
shareholders, and it does thisby separating voting rights, the
control of the company, fromeconomic rights or the profit to
(27:10):
ensure that the company isguided by its mission and that
those who are actively involvedin Its operation are properly
incentivized to hew to thatmission. In other words, a
steward owned company is ownedby its purpose. There are no
shareholders who can exert unduepressure on short term financial
gains in steward ownership, theVoting Rights remain with those
(27:33):
personnel who are activelymanaging the company and
connected to its operations andpurpose. And those rights cannot
be sold or inherited. They don'tgenerate any financial returns.
Instead, they stay with thecompany over its lifetime as
personnel change any profitsgenerated by the business, and
all the assets are held insupport of the company's
(27:53):
mission, so they are reinvestedin the business to cover capital
costs, or sometimes distributedto employees. For example, had
open AI begun as a steward ownedcompany, it would have been
forced to stick to its originalmission to ensure that AGI
benefits all of humanity.
Instead, we get Sora two andpleas from its CFO to have the
(28:15):
US government guarantee itsinsanely risky investments,
although steward ownership is acorporate structure that has
been around for over a century,it is still pretty rare. One US
based example is the outdoorclothing company Patagonia, who
transitioned to stewardownership in 2022 they leveraged
existing us trust and corporatelaws, creating two entities, the
(28:38):
Patagonia purpose Trust, whichis the steward and the holdfast
collective, this nonprofit thatmanages the profits and
reinvests them back into thebusiness, primarily to address
the environmental crisis. Nodoubt, incorporating as steward
owned is challenging. Not onlyis the corporate structure
complex from a legal standpoint,but raising capital requires
(28:58):
finding niche, mission driveninvestors who understand that
there can never be an exit ormassive returns on investment,
let alone a say in how thecompany operates, still imagine
the first AI models and AIcompany built with a sense of
kinship and reciprocity andstructured to remain that way, I
think it would resonate with alot of people And stand as an
(29:20):
attractive alternative to thecrazed Wendigo AI systems on
offer today.
Finally, what if we builttechnology itself on the unsold
principles of kinship andreciprocity, instead of
voracious extraction andconsumption? We could call these
alternative technologies hearthtechnologies, where Empire
(29:43):
technologies like social mediaor Sora two extract value from
the periphery and concentrate itin the center. A hearth
technology radiates warmthoutward instead of atomizing
individuals. A hearth technologycreates and empowers
communities. A hearth technologyimplements reciprocity by
(30:03):
cultivating lastingrelationships built on trust and
a kind of give and take, insteadof on monopolizing attention and
fostering addiction. Could an AImodel or system be built this
way? There are already a fewindigenous AI systems that are
trained ethically on indigenousdata, primarily in Australia.
I'll drop a couple examples inthe show notes. But what about a
(30:26):
general purpose hearth AI? Maybewe can draw inspiration from
some of these new EU basedmodels that are coming out of
Europe, that were ethicallytrained and that are EU AI Act
compliant. I don't know. Theseare all just kind of inchoate
early ideas about how to make AIin a way that's not when to go
(30:48):
anyway. We could take a sort oflike negative inspiration from
Elon Musk and how he's creatingthis, like anti woke AI with
grok, and we could, we couldcreate AI models and AI systems
that embody an ensouled orindigenous worldview, and that
could includeinterconnectedness, reciprocity
and community. In fact, I'vebeen talking recently to some
(31:11):
friends and colleagues aboutcreating just such an AI, and I
know there are several inchoateattempts at a sort of like Gaia
AI that are in the works acrossdifferent groups around the
world that I've talked to. Iwould also be interested in
starting a sort of Think Tank toexplore these ideas. So I'm
going to keep talking about thisand explore all that in future
episodes. So I started writingthis episode in an attempt to
(31:38):
name and understand theconsumptive extractive force,
this Wendigo force that drivesAI innovation, and honestly, I
had no idea that it would leadto me talking about alternative
corporate structures or hearthtechnologies. Like why does
technology innovation have torun on these feast and famine
cycles of exuberant hype andduplicative investment followed
(32:01):
by enormous crashes. Why doestechnology innovation have to
feel like gambling? I think it'sbecause of these Windigo
tendencies. My journey ofstumbling into the myth and
metaphor of the Windigo has beenso enlightening, but also has
only just begun. I know thereare already organizations out
there exploring these questionsfrom an explicitly indigenous
(32:22):
standpoint. So I want to offergratitude and respect to all who
have come before. My onlyintention here is to raise
awareness and explore upliftingpaths forward. More on all of
this very soon, you you.
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