June 29, 2021 • 75 mins
What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? — Friedrich Nietzsche
We live in what seems like the denouement of the age of reason. We feel separate and alienated in a world bereft of meaning. Astrology can be a remedy for that alienation and emptiness. To see why and how, I explore the history of science and European reason, depth psychology, and quantum physics. I then assuage concerns about the implications for free will in astrology, and talk about how Vedic astrology (Jyotish) compares with Western astrology. We go deep in this episode, because the cosmos is deep; we just have to look, and listen.
The Modern Astrology Zeitgeist
“I don't believe in astrology; I'm a Sagittarius and we're skeptical.” — Arthur C. Clarke
Why are Millennials so into Astrology? (Jan 2018)
“Astrology is not a science; there’s no evidence that one’s zodiac sign actually correlates to personality.” [citing a 1984 research paper showing no correlation between astrology and personality.]
Astrology in the Age of Uncertainty (Oct 2019)
“Millennials who see no contradiction between using astrology and believing in science are fueling a resurgence of the practice.”
Exploding popularity, a booming $40 million business for apps (Nov 2020)
The New York Times Modern Love podcast recently featured a story about Vedic astrology.
Influences
Some of the luminaries who Influenced my thinking on astrology, both Western and Vedic, include:
- Rick Tarnas
- Fritjof Capra — I highly recommend reading his now-famous Tao of Physics. Despite being almost 50 years old now, it is still highly relevant today.
- Amit Goswami
- Anand Mehrotra
"Nature is alive and talking to us. This is not a metaphor." — Terence McKenna
Learn more about my astrology offerings.
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Book a free consultation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jayadev Woodford (00:00):
What were we doing when we unchained this
(00:02):
earth from its sun? Whither isit moving now? Whither are we
moving? Away from all suns? Arewe not plunging continually?
Backward, sideward, forward, inall directions? Is there still
any up or down? Are we notstraying as through an infinite
(00:26):
nothing? Do we not feel thebreath of empty space? Has it
not become colder? Is not nightcontinually closing in on us?
Unknown (00:40):
This is a quote from Frederick Nietzsche, in 1882,
where he was sort of calling thealarm in a sense, and we'll come
back to this later in thediscussion. But I wanted to open
this episode with that quote,because I feel like it really
tees up the discussion ofastrology and puts this context
around what I feel is the modernpredicament where we have, you
(01:04):
know, we've entered the age ofreason, you could say that we
are living under the tyranny ofreason and the tyranny of mind.
And we've sort of lost touchwith our interconnectedness, our
interpenetration, with nature,and with ourselves, too. And so
a big theme of this episode isgoing to be exploring the
(01:24):
history of this kind ofseparation, and this disunity,
this disintegration, and theways that it has started to sort
of reify and reaffirm andcoalesce in the 20th century,
and, and especially in the 21stcentury. And so I want to talk
(01:45):
about, you know, look at thehistory of our separation from
nature, but then the processthat we've been going through
healing it and how astrology canplay a role in that. So in this
episode, I'll be making the casefor both the validity and the
power of astrology, and what I'mcalling the denouement of the
tyranny of reason. So that'swhat we're going to talk about
(02:07):
today, it's gonna get deep, andso you know, take a seat, have
some tea, and just kick back andhave a listen. And I'll do my
best to, to keep it as short asI can. But also, let's have some
fun with it, right? It's a bigtopic, it's a big topic,
astrology, very large, verylarge.
(02:30):
And I wanted to add thisdisclaimer, you know, we're
going to talk about the historyof reason, the history of
science, going back to theRenaissance, and I'm going to be
in various places, critiquingscience, I just want to make
clear that by no means am Ianti- science or anti-reason,
right? I'm very much a believerin science and scientific
(02:52):
progress. And the points I'mgonna be making are pretty
nuanced, you know. So it's, it'snot rejecting science, it's just
pointing out that science andPure Reason is not the only
modality or the only way ofunderstanding our place in the
world and of, of derivingmeaning from life. And not only
that, but you know, if it is ouronly modality, then it can be
(03:15):
quite harmful, actually, andquite alienating. So that's all.
So I want to make thatdisclaimer about science. I'm
pro science. And I just wannamake that clear up front.
So in terms of our relationshipto nature, I think we're
starting to move into a placewhere we're rediscovering that
to a large extent, you know, andI'm thinking about this, Terence
McKenna, quote, nature istalking to us. This is not a
(03:39):
metaphor, right. And so that'sgonna be kind of the theme of
our discussion around astrologyas we go through this episode.
Welcome to spiritual but notridiculous, a podcast that
explores the world ofspirituality, from a grounded
(03:59):
and clear eyed perspective. I'myour host jayadev, a yoga
teacher, Vedic astrologer,attorney and technologist.
(04:24):
So astrology is, again, it's abig topic. It's, it's definitely
a thing that's blowing up inpopularity right now. It's been
gaining in popularity going backto at least 10 years ago, I
would say, and obviously, it hada huge resurgence in the 60s and
70s. But but we're going toanother another resurgence right
(04:44):
now. And so I think it's anespecially relevant moment for
us to be talking about it too.
It's one of those interestingthings that's so popular, but
also so maligned by themainstream and the intellectual
elite at the same time, right.
It's sort of coming into theback door. And people are
talking about it working withit. Everybody, everybody I know
(05:04):
is into astrology at this point.
And you see these these apps,you know, like costar and the
pattern are gaining a lot oftraction, you know, celebrities
are talking about them. And sodespite this astrology being
part of the great superstition,purge of the modern era, you
know, for the longest timenewspapers have been printing
horoscopes, and yeah, we see themainstream media really covering
(05:27):
this resurgence as well. You'vegot the Atlantic talking about
how Millennials are really intoastrology. Going back to 2018,
you've got the New Yorker,writing about millennials, in
astrology as well and 2019. Andthis whole app, the astrology
app industry, I think, is worth$40 million, at least at least
(05:47):
as of 2020, according toBusiness Insider, so it's
definitely a thing and you know,in like in like, with yoga,
where we've got the terminologyentering the common lexicon, or
with karma, and mantra and allthat. It's the same thing with
astrology. You know, everyonetalks about mercury in
retrograde and their Saturnreturn, and everyone knows their
(06:08):
sun sign, even if they don'treally, quote unquote, believe
in astrology. So yeah, it'sdefinitely present in our light
Geist, and I think ourrelationship to astrology, as a
culture is really summed upwell, in this famous quote from
Arthur C. Clarke. I don'tbelieve in astrology, I'm a
Sagittarius and we're skeptical.
(06:29):
Right? So it's that idea, right?
It's that idea that I thinkwe're able to sort of hold these
two ideas simultaneously, with alittle bit of cognitive
dissonance perhaps. So yeah,I'll be in this episode, I'm
going to be talking about thehistory of, of science going
back to the Renaissance, andhistory of religion and to some
extent as it's relevant, andthen the 20th century
developments that have kind ofbrought us back to astrology.
(06:51):
This is very ancient practice.
And so I eventually wind my wayaround to talking about vedic
astrology and the differencesbetween Eastern and Western
astrology because I personallypractice Vedic Astrology or
Jyotish. And actually, in termsof is like Geist. A few weeks
(07:11):
ago, there was an episode of TheNew York Times Modern love
podcast that featured a storythat kind of revolved around
Vedic Astrology. So I'll putthat in the show notes. And I
recommend checking that out aswell. But yeah, I think
astrology, if you look, if youlook back over the history of
the Western, Western Westerncivilization, it's been popular
during periods of heightenedintellectual luminosity, really.
(07:34):
So you see it, you know, beingused widely in the Greek and
Roman antiquity, and theHellenistic era in Alexandria,
in the high Middle Ages, andobviously in the Italian
Renaissance, and the Elizabethanage. And so it's something that
keeps popping up right? Andfamous, famous thinkers, famous
asstra astrologers include Platoand Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas,
(07:57):
Dante kappler himself, Gerdaeats, and Carl young, who will
come back to a little bit. Soastrology has been with us for a
long time. And I think it's timefor us to, to embrace it really,
is what I'm saying.
So some of the commonmisconceptions about astrology
(08:18):
that will tease out as we gothrough the episode include that
it's about predicting thefuture, which which is really
not. And we'll talk about that,that you know, that it means
that the universe isdeterministic, or that
everything is pre determined.
That's also not true. There isfreewill with astrology, and
we'll talk about that later.
There's this misconception, Ithink that the planets are doing
(08:40):
something to us. You know, Ithink that's a lot of times when
you hear somebody sort of, sortof criticize it or poopoo it,
you know, they're talking like,oh, it sounds so ridiculous,
talking to planets be doingsomething to us, because I think
most people are still trapped inthis kind of materialist
worldview, which we'll unpack ina little bit as well. And, you
know, there's this notion thatastrology is not a science, when
(09:02):
in fact it is, and we'll talkabout that. So I, for me,
astrology is extremely lifeaffirming. What it's doing is
it's it's a way of capturing thecycles of life using these very
deep archetypes. It's a way ofgiving you a snapshot of your
past karma. And it's ultimatelya way of helping you to find
(09:23):
balance and courage and innerresolve. It's helping you to
utilize your incarnation to thehighest, most meaningful and
fulfilling manner. You know,it's helping to see that all
gifts are wrapped in challengeand how there's ways to approach
challenge in a very gracefulway. And I think you know, a big
(09:45):
part of what I'm saying in thisepisode is that astrology is a
way for us to pierce throughthis tyranny of mind and to
overcome the resistance that themind has to non rational ways of
knowing. So astrology is reallynothing less Then a grand
restoration of soul and andMystique, and a redefining of
our relationship with nature.
It's a poetic recognition andintegration of the discoveries
(10:09):
of modern physics and depthpsychology, which we'll explore
as well in this episode. Sothat's, that's just teeing up
the discussion there. I wantedto, before we get into it,
really, I wanted to just talkabout a way to think about
astrology as I go into thisdiscussion. And so, you know,
one way to approach it is thisyoga view of the nature of
(10:33):
reality, which is, you know,whether you're a person who
believes in Brahma or thegoddess of classical Tantra, the
yoga view is that the universeis imbued with intelligence at
every level, the universe isself aware to varying degrees.
And so it's like an enormousliving entity. And so the cosmos
(10:53):
or the Goddess, or whatever youwant to call it, is continuously
creating the world we live in asan act of play, and an act of
love. And so this worldview ispantheistic. And it's been sold.
And so this is also the view ofastrology, these, these two
views are in line. And I thinkthat's why I think that's why
(11:15):
Jyotish or Vedic Astrology isultimately considered to be part
of the larger yogic tradition.
So in this sense, astrologersare Yogi's, really, and we'll
talk more about this too. Butyou know, this, this worldview
of this sort of self awareuniverse flies in the face of
this dogmatic, modernmaterialist scientific
(11:36):
worldview. And so there's a realtension here. And that's the
tension that I want to try toalleviate in this episode. So
another way to think aboutastrology is that, you know,
it's like the earth, the cosmosis like the earth, the universe
is made up of these variouscycles and currents and eddies
and waves of energy. And we cansee this the most immediately,
(11:59):
and the most apparently in theorbit of the planets and other
celestial bodies. But it's alsothere in these kind of unseen
energetic forces. And some ofthese forces science has already
recognized, like gravity andelectromagnetism, right? So it's
just these invisible forces thatare out there. And astrology is
also a way to tap into those,and in some sense to measure
(12:21):
those things or to, tounderstand the cyclical nature
of those right. And so theplanets are both reflecting ag
man magnifying these cosmicforces. And this is part of what
we'll come to understand in thisepisode. And it's so important,
I think, this discussion is soimportant because the cosmology
of a civilization ultimatelyreflects and influences all
(12:44):
human activity and understandingwithin that civilization. So I
think it's that's thatimportant, you know. And just,
I'll finish this, thisintroduction with a brief
history of my ownrelationship with astrology. So
going back to 2013, I was in aBurning Man camp, just through
(13:04):
happenstance. It wasn't evensomething I planned on doing.
The last minute I joined this,this archetypal astrology
Burning Man camp. So it was like70 people, mostly astrologers
offering astrology to the playaas our as our gift to apply it.
And it was fascinating becauseit was like a deep immersion
into astrology, kind of jumpinginto the deep end, in a sense,
(13:26):
and it was beautiful, because Iwas with all these people who
are talking about thesearchetypes that I had never
really heard much about before.
And I've always been curiousabout astrology. But this was my
first real deep exposure to it.
And you know, we'll see in aminute that a big part of my
thinking around astrology hasbeen influenced by this
astrologer and academic Ricktarnis. And what's crazy is that
(13:48):
he was in her camp, and I knewhe was in our camp, but I didn't
really know who he was, youknow. So looking back now, just
amazed that I was in a BurningMan camp with Rick tarnis. So,
so yeah, 2013 was when I reallystarted to get curious about it.
And then it wasn't until a fewyears later that I you know, I
went to the jungle and did Ioscoand Peru and, and Amazon. And
(14:10):
that experience really opened meup to other kind of ways of
thinking and being more deeplythan let's say yoga had before
that. And that's when I hired myfirst astrologer I came back
from the jungle and immediatelyhired Western astrologer and had
a reading and that reading wasso profound and so
transformative. And I gainedsuch deep respect for the
(14:33):
practice of astrology. And then,a few months later, I went to
India, I found one of myteachers than the Malia's, who
was also a Jota. She practicesVedic Astrology. And I got a
reading from him. And that wasalso very eye opening and sort
of just made me feel understoodin a deep way for the first time
(14:55):
and really gave me the courageto start approached my life in a
new and creative way. And then,a year after that I had another
Western reading more of an arcof archetypal reading with Erica
Jones, one of the women in myBurning Man camp. And that
reading was so profound, sotransformational. And just to
(15:16):
give one example, towards theend of the reading, she asked me
this question. The Cosmos wantsto know why I am refusing to
wield my power. And it was oneof those questions. It was like
a Zen koan, you know, I, my mindwent blank, I had no thoughts,
and I realized that I didn'thave any conception of my
(15:41):
relationship to power. And itset me on this long journey of
exploring my relationship topower and, you know,
understanding different kinds ofpower and soft power. And I, you
know, it really changed my wholeperspective around power. And
that was just one of many, manythings in that reading. So, so
I've had this, this greatjourney through astrology, and
(16:01):
I'm so blessed and fortunate nowto be, you know, trained in in
as an astrologer in what, inVedic astrology and offering
readings. So it's a real passionof mine, it's maybe my favorite
thing right now. So I just soexcited to go into this episode
and to explore it.
(16:29):
Let's go back and explore thehistory of science and to some
extent, religion, in order totee up a discussion of the
relevance of astrology in themodern world. So in order for us
to understand how we've gottento this place in modernity, of
(16:52):
skepticism, and materialism, anda rejection of these deeply
powerful ancient ways ofunderstanding nature and the
universe and our relationship toit, I think we need to go back
to the Renaissance, tounderstand sort of the
trajectory of Western thought,and how that ultimately led to a
(17:16):
rejection of, of the installmentof nature basically. So I want
to start this session with aquote from Rick tarnis. One need
not be graced with propheticinsight to recognize that we are
living in one of those rareages, like the end of classical
antiquity, or the beginning ofthe modern era that bring forth
(17:38):
to great stress and struggle, agenuinely fundamental
transformation and theunderlying assumptions and
principles of the culturalworldview. Ours is an age
between worldviews, creative,yet disoriented, a transitional
era when the old cultural visionno longer holds, and the new has
(18:00):
not yet constellated. So I thinkthat quote, tees up nicely, our
little trip back in time to theRenaissance, and to the
Copernican revolution, whichwas, in large part this, this
turning point that led to themodern world. Because I think to
(18:20):
understand astrology, and itssignificance in our present
moment, it's necessary tounderstand how we got here, this
kind of strange inflection pointwhere we are slowly and suddenly
finding our way out from underthe tyranny of mind and the
tyranny of reason. So let'sexplore the history of Western
thinking. And I just want to saythat my thinking around this
this subject has been primarilyinfluenced by Rick tarnis, but
(18:43):
also fritjof Capra, AmitGoswami, and my teacher Ananda
Rotorua, so much gratitude toall of them for shining the
light, or helping me to find thelight of the darkest night. So
the Copernican revolution, youknow, if you go back about 600
years, at that point, you know,there was everyone thought that
(19:04):
the sun revolved around theearth, and there was the earth
was flat. And so there was areal significance to Copernicus,
helping people to understand orstart to understand that the sun
was actually the center of thesolar system. You know, he
showed that if you change theperspective that all of our all
the math of around astronomywould actually become quite
(19:26):
simple and much simpler. Andwhat's fascinating about this,
too, as somebody who's studiedthe history of East and India,
especially, is that this is asharp contrast to what, what
Yogi's and Jota she's and otheryou know, people in India at
that time understood, I mean, atthat point, people in India had
understood for 1000s of years,if not longer, that the earth
(19:49):
rotated around the sun. And soit's like Europe is coming quite
late to this party. But yeah, soso Copernicus and then you know,
those who followed sort ofshifted substantially the way
that people thought about ourplace in the universe because of
this heliocentric revolution.
It's a fundamental turningpoint, and Western civilization.
So up to that point, there was,you know, everyone believed in
(20:15):
this sort of grand cosmic order,and, and in sort of this
interconnected relationship withnature, and I want to emphasize
to you that Copernicus, and youknow, Kepler, and Newton, all
these guys, all these earlypioneers, they still saw their
scientific breakthroughs andrealizations, as divine, the
divine illuminations as likespiritual awakenings to this
(20:39):
grand cosmic order. So theyweren't, it's not it's not like
we went straight fromsuperstitious beliefs and
religious dogma, straight toPure Reason and science, right.
It was a gradual process ofstill living in that court sort
of cosmic order, universe, thoseso to speak. So they believe
that there was this cosmic orderthat was created by some creator
(21:02):
to be known and admired by humanintelligence. And I think it's
important for us to understandthat that was that was still the
kind of in the middle you at thetime.
So it's really for these earlypioneers in modern science, the
primal world was still in soldand alive and living a conscious
(21:25):
thing that was communicatingwith us, right. Again, Terence
McKenna nature is talking to us,right? So, as science and
Western philosophy evolved overthe centuries, it did
increasingly increasingly rejectthe old and sold primal world in
favor of reason andunderstanding everything through
the mind. But it was a gradualprocess. And I think this
(21:47):
movement away from superstitionand religion, towards reason and
science was happening for goodreason, obviously, right? We
needed we needed to sort of doaway with the abuses of
religious dogma. And to increasepersonal freedom. I think
(22:07):
through through this revolution,we needed this course
correction. But what a part ofwhat I'm going to be outlining
in this episode is that in thatprocess, we lost something along
the way. We overcorrected. Andwe lost touch with the
intelligence of nature, I think.
Because reason and his modernworldview that we still exist in
today is a worldview ofseparation and mechanization,
(22:27):
right? This view that the modernworld is a mindless machine
filled with atoms that are setin motion by an intention, this
big bang with no inherent orderor purpose. In a cold and empty
universe, you know, it's a, it'san alienating is a deeply
alienating worldview. And sowhat I want to what I think is
(22:49):
fascinating is that this, thissort of priori assumption about
the nature of reality that youknow, that it's separate, and
that it's mechanistic, andmaterialistic, and all that, it
was really an assumption thatall of scientific discovery was
founded upon, but it wasn't, itwasn't the result of a
(23:13):
scientific hypothesis that wasthen proven out, right. So it's
still to this day, this, thisunderstand our understanding,
our sort of cosmic cosmologicalunderstanding of the nature of
the cosmos is still based on anassumption, which I think is
fascinating, because, you know,scientists today are so arrogant
and dogmatic about thisassumption, despite the fact
(23:36):
that it's just an assumption. Soanyways, we'll come back to
that, but it was, you know, soit was Francis Bacon really
unrated Rene Descartes, who madethis assumption into kind of an
accepted fact. Right? They,they, they thought that objects
out there cannot contain anyhuman qualities or projections.
(23:57):
Right. It was just it seemedlike it wasn't consistent with
this new scientific worldviewthat they were developing. And
so we live in the shadow of thisassumption today. And this
assumption, you know, does itdid seem to pay dividends?
Right? It seemed to support theadvance of progress, especially
technological progress. And themore that we saw, the more that
(24:18):
we saw the world and nature assomething to be manipulated and
dominated. And the more we sawit as separate, the more we seem
to achieve a sort of progresswith that. But But yeah, I mean,
just thinking about the arrogantsuperiority of those who are
still enthralled by the cult ofmind that came out of this. And
the fact that it's entirelybased on a set of assumptions
(24:41):
that have actually failed tokeep up with the two biggest
developments of the 20thcentury, which we'll talk about
in a minute, is an importantpoint that I don't want to get
lost. So, with this split, youknow what the split is, is being
Driven between us and thecosmos, we begin to see nature
(25:03):
as a mere resource to beexploited for human benefit.
Before the 17th century, thegoals of science were wisdom,
understanding the natural orderand living in harmony with it.
In the 17th century, thisattitude which we could call an
ecological attitude changed intoits opposite. Ever since begun,
the goal of science has beenknowledge that can be used to
(25:27):
dominate and control nature. Andso today, both science and
technology are usedpredominantly for these
purposes, which we can see is adangerous and harmful and anti
ecological endpoint. And so,again, we see nature as
mechanistic and personalunconscious, it's simply there
(25:48):
to do our bidding. And it's justbecause we say so and so nature
seems to imply, at least it diduntil the 19th century.
But I think it's, I think thatthe nature of the cosmos too, is
that it just reflects back tous, whatever we project onto it.
(26:10):
And so if we think that natureis mechanistic and impersonal
and unconscious, then I thinkthe cosmos will happily reflect
back to us this reality. And soin that sense, I think the
cosmos has infinite patience. SoI think the sad part of this
story is that, you know, theprice you pay for this kind of
(26:34):
arrogant, alienating worldview,is living in a state of
alienation. You know, we'vewe've achieved autonomy over
nature, in exchange foralienation, which is, which I
think is a is too big of a priceto pay. And so with this, with
this evolution, up through, youknow, Francis Bacon, and Rene
(26:54):
Descartes, and all these WesternEuropean scientists and
philosophers, what develops is aabsolute superiority of the
Western mind over all others,you know, other worldviews,
other errors, other other timeperiods, other cultures,
especially, and other modes ofcognition. And again, it's not
(27:15):
based on it's not like, therewas a scientific proof that this
worldview was superior, it wasjust all an assumption, you
know, a sort of a, everyone justadopted it, and then just kind
of Lord have that superiorityover others. And I think this
alienation and this, thisseparate worldview, is uniquely
(27:35):
a product of the mind and theego, which by its very nature
sees everything as separate. Youcould even say that this
alienation and this sort ofseparation is one of the primary
European exports, you know, thistyranny of mind. So I'm happy to
say that I think we are finallytruly reckoning with it in this
current era. And, of course,it's no accident, that the
(27:58):
Renaissance and the age ofreason that we're talking about,
coincided with the birth ofmodern colonialism, you know,
because this arrogant supremacy,of a certain kind of European
way of life, was then thrustupon the rest of the world, you
know, in violent ways. And so,so I think, you know, we can say
(28:20):
that the tyranny of mind this,this European worldview, is
itself a form of colonialism.
And this is why I think it'slargely the spiritual traditions
of non European cultures, or preRenaissance traditions, that are
increasingly becoming anantidote to our modern crisis of
meaning. And again, like I said,at the beginning, I'm not anti
reason or anti science, Isupport a holistic approach to
(28:43):
life that includes the mind, butnot at the expense of the heart
and the soul, or theenvironment, for that matter.
Okay, so that's just a littlebit about the history of the
development of science, goingback to the Renaissance, and
then coming up through theenlightenment. And I wanted to
just I wanted to go into alittle sidebar about monotheism,
(29:04):
and, and then the death of God,right. So another big influence
here is the trajectory that wetake once we start moving into
the Age of Reason, wherereligion plays less and less of
a role, but it also has a heavyinfluence on what I think is the
scientific worldview, withoutmaybe scientific knowledge of
(29:27):
the past, right. So if you lookat monotheism and Europe, they
believe they believe that manwas made in the image of God.
And so God and that, in thatconceptualization is the supreme
subject, who created the worldas a separate object. And so as
a result, because we're made inthe image of God, you know, we
(29:48):
are separate. God is separate upthere somewhere in some other
reality. Heaven is separate, youknow, so I think there's this
this approach to the world thatcomes From monotheism and from
European religion, Christianityheavily influences the
scientific worldview that comesout of Europe as well. So then
as reason started to rise andreligion began to wane slowly,
(30:10):
slowly, then, you know, we hadto take on Europeans had to take
on that role of SupremeIntelligence presiding over this
alien world, this mindless,soulless vacuum, with no
inherent purpose behind servingour material needs. And so we
can trace this process ofincreasing alienation through
Descartes, Locke, and Hume andKant, and all these Western
(30:34):
philosopher Schopenhauer, Darwineven and marks. And then Nisha,
who had the wherewithal to seewhat was happening. And he
really kind of raised the alarm,I think, you know, in 1882, he
needs to declare that God isdead. And actually, I think I
wanted to share the full quotefrom that, actually. So here,
(30:54):
here's Nisha.
God is dead. God remains dead,and we have killed him. How
shall we can comfort ourselves,the murderers of all murderers?
What was holiest and mightiestof all that the world has yet
owned, has bled to death underour knives? Who will wipe this
(31:19):
blood off us? What water isthere for us to clean ourselves?
What festivals of atonement?
What sacred games? Shall we haveto invent? Is not the greatness
of this deed to great for us?
Must we ourselves not becomegods simply to appear worthy of
it? And so yeah, I think this isnature being very insightful
(31:43):
here. And yeah, callingattention to this sort of
trouble that we've gottenourselves into by the late 19th
century. And so then you can seethe trajectory of modern
philosophy after that seemsdeeply troubled. You know, if
you look at the existentialists,from care regard to Heidegger,
and Sartre and kumbu, you know,if you read their works, which I
did in law school, because Ithink I was feeling very
(32:04):
existential back then do you seethat? Yeah, they're deeply
disturbed, I think by thisalienation, right? That's kind
of the theme, the overarchingtheme of, of existential ism. So
by the end of the 19th century,we've ended up in this situation
where, just like, the antiquatedview that the Earth was at the
center of the universe, we arenow suffering from this flawed
(32:27):
perspective, placing the humanperspective at the center of
knowing. And so we were in thisdeep state of alienation. You
know, we feel that man is justthis kind of curious accident
resulting from random andmeaningless collision of atoms
and Darwinian evolution. And soit's, it's not a very comforting
(32:48):
place to be right. Butfortunately, we then have two or
three, depending how you want tocount it. These two these these
developments, the common the20th century that begin to offer
a different way. And that's whatI want to explore in the next
section.
(33:15):
So in the 20th century, we seethese two developments that both
arise out of the scientificendeavor. There's depth
psychology, and there's quantumphysics. So these, these two, I
think, are the key to saving usfrom ourselves, so to speak, or
for undoing the tyranny ofreason, in the 20th century. So
(33:40):
let's look at depth psychologyfirst. So starting in the late
19th century, and going into theearly 20th century, we see the
influence of nature, actually,on psychology. And so this
relatively new field ofpsychology develops with William
James and in America, and Freudin young and Europe. And as, as
(34:01):
we start to see the recognitionof the existence of an
unconscious, the mind starts tolose its position of power, you
know, you got Sigmund Freudcoming in first, and developing
his theory of the unconsciousand the influence of the
unconscious. And so it's like,all of a sudden, we're at the
we're at the mercy of all theseon conscious influences. What
(34:24):
does that mean for the supremacyof mind? Right? For the
supremacy of reason, it meansthere's trouble afoot. So it's
like, what is going on here?
What does it mean that there'san unconscious right and so, so
Freud really set the stage here.
And then, you know, WilliamJames talked a lot about the
importance of acknowledging theexistence of all kinds of other
ways of being and differenttypes of conscious states, you
(34:47):
know. And Carl young, though,came in and really ran with it,
and he's the one who started tointroduce these these modalities
from antiquity and to have trulyan open mind when it comes to
how to understand ourselves andour place in the world. And so
he brings in this stuffpsychology, that is then located
(35:11):
at the intersection of theEnlightenment, you know, it's
still science, but then alsoromanticism. So there it brings
in the humanities and mysticism.
It's, you know, it's mythic,it's symbolic, it's numinous.
And it's, it's a real challengeto pure rationality in a in a
beautiful and important way. Andin young, I think, you know,
the, these two developments, I'mtalking about Deaf psychology
(35:31):
and quantum physics. They gohand in hand, because young was
friends with Einstein andWolfgang Pauli, and all these
guys. And so he was heavilyinfluenced by their work in
quantum physics. And so younghere starts to, in his practice
with patients, he starts toencounter profound
synchronicities. There are somegreat ones documented in his in
(35:54):
some of his books, and some someof the papers that come out of
that time. But I just wanted tohighlight one to give an
illustration. So he had this, inthe early days, I think, around
the turn of the century, youonly had this young female
patient, and she was a realtough nut to crack like they
weren't making any progress inher and her therapy. And part of
that was because she always knewbetter about everything. And she
(36:18):
had a very good education. Sothis gave her this kind of
ideally suited kind of armor,for breaking through any kind of
mental barriers, and kind of ahighly polished like Cartesian
rationalism, and a very linearidea of reality. And so young
was having a very hard timegetting through to her. And so
(36:38):
after many fruitless attempts tosoften her rationalism with
compassion, and these othertechniques, young began to just
hope for some kind of unexpectedand irrational breakthrough,
that something would happen thatwould burst her intellectual
bubble. And so they were in atherapy session one time, and he
was sitting opposite her withhis back to the window
(37:00):
listening. And she was talkingabout this impressive dream that
she had had the night before, inwhich someone had given her
golden scarab, this costly pieceof jewelry. And while she was
telling him this dream, he heardsomething behind him gently
tapping on the window. And so heturned around, and he saw that
it was a there was this verylarge flying insect that was
knocking against the windowpanefrom outside in an attempt to
(37:23):
get into the room. And it seemedvery strange to him. So he
immediately open the window, andcaught the insect in the air as
it flew in. And it was a scarabbead beetle, a kind of gold
green beetle, that was actuallynot really known in those parts
of Switzerland at that time. Andso that looked like, it looked
(37:45):
like a golden scarab. And sothey he then handed the beetle
to his patient, saying, Here'syour scarab. And this
experience, punctured the holein her rationalism and broke the
ice of her intellectualresistance. And then they could
continue with their course oftreatment, which became quite
successful. And so it wasexperiences like this that
really influenced you allheavily. And, and, you know,
(38:06):
caused him to research and tothink deeply about
synchronicities.
So Young started to understandthat synchronicity can be very
healing because it's uniting theinner and outer world and
imbuing your experience withthat of deeper meaning in order.
And he saw it as theintervention of grace, you know,
(38:28):
graces in most traditions, theway that the cosmos or nature
sort of steps in and sends youthese little signals, or these
little gives you these littlenudges as towards evolution or
towards surrender or towardstrust, you know, and so, so
young saw synchronicity as thisintermission of grace, and a way
(38:48):
to kind of nudge patients tomove towards greater wholeness
and individuation. Because with,with these synchronistic events,
you're forced to surrender yourattitude of like, knowing
superiority into a state ofunity, and to acknowledge the
intelligence of nature, and thenunify the conscious and the
(39:10):
unconscious. And the, you know,as a result, you start to open
up more to the world. And soit's, it's a means for greater
personal expansion and forintegration. And I think you can
say the same things aboutastrology, as we'll see. And of
course, you know, practicingusing synchronicity, in this
way, you know, requires a preevolved, therapist, and you
(39:33):
know, you have to make sure thatyou're avoiding any projection
or narcissism when looking forsynchronistic events in the
world. But, you know, astrologyis similar in that way where,
you know, it does require anastrologer who's kind of wise
and developed enough torecognize patterns within within
things without projecting theirown unresolved issues onto that.
(39:57):
But anyways, youngstar natureand Persons surrounding
environment as this livingmatrix of potential
synchronistic meaning that couldilluminate the human sphere,
right, as return has put it. SoYoung starting to see these
synchronistic phenomena asfundamentally archetypal in
(40:17):
nature, and he saw thatarchetypes are the fundamental
governing principles of thehuman psyche. For young
archetypes are these autonomouspatterns of meaning that that
inform the soul and matter, theybridge, Mind and Matter, they
bridge the inner and outer thesearchetypes are very powerful in
(40:39):
that way. And so young saw bothpsychological and spiritual
aspects to this, this process ofworking with the archetypes and
the archetypal unconscious. Sohere we see a kind of a
tentative first step towardsbridging both science and
religion with this archetypalworldview, kind of creating a
(41:01):
new spirituality. I mean, Youngwas doing a lot, doing a lot for
humanity in the 20th century.
And so as a result of thisprocess with synchronicity, and
archetypal synchronicity, young,pretty quickly becomes drawn
towards astrology. As early as1911. Here we see evidence of
him using astrological charts inhis work with his patients. And
so young, has been quoted assaying that for him astrology
(41:26):
represents the sum of allpsychological knowledge of
antiquity. And so yeah, he'she's, he's using astrology
readings in his group ofpatients. And in this process to
start as he's starting to talkpublicly about this, he's really
taking on this enormous task ofcombating this enlightenment
tendency to uphold rationalautonomy, and to deprecate, you
(41:46):
know, antiquity and earlierworldviews, and he becomes quite
successful at it, you know,especially in his later years.
What were we doing when we unchained this
(00:02):
earth from its sun? Whither isit moving now? Whither are we
moving? Away from all suns? Arewe not plunging continually?
Backward, sideward, forward, inall directions? Is there still
any up or down? Are we notstraying as through an infinite
(00:26):
nothing? Do we not feel thebreath of empty space? Has it
not become colder? Is not nightcontinually closing in on us?
Unknown (00:40):
This is a quote from Frederick Nietzsche, in 1882,
where he was sort of calling thealarm in a sense, and we'll come
back to this later in thediscussion. But I wanted to open
this episode with that quote,because I feel like it really
tees up the discussion ofastrology and puts this context
around what I feel is the modernpredicament where we have, you
(01:04):
know, we've entered the age ofreason, you could say that we
are living under the tyranny ofreason and the tyranny of mind.
And we've sort of lost touchwith our interconnectedness, our
interpenetration, with nature,and with ourselves, too. And so
a big theme of this episode isgoing to be exploring the
(01:24):
history of this kind ofseparation, and this disunity,
this disintegration, and theways that it has started to sort
of reify and reaffirm andcoalesce in the 20th century,
and, and especially in the 21stcentury. And so I want to talk
(01:45):
about, you know, look at thehistory of our separation from
nature, but then the processthat we've been going through
healing it and how astrology canplay a role in that. So in this
episode, I'll be making the casefor both the validity and the
power of astrology, and what I'mcalling the denouement of the
tyranny of reason. So that'swhat we're going to talk about
(02:07):
today, it's gonna get deep, andso you know, take a seat, have
some tea, and just kick back andhave a listen. And I'll do my
best to, to keep it as short asI can. But also, let's have some
fun with it, right? It's a bigtopic, it's a big topic,
astrology, very large, verylarge.
(02:30):
And I wanted to add thisdisclaimer, you know, we're
going to talk about the historyof reason, the history of
science, going back to theRenaissance, and I'm going to be
in various places, critiquingscience, I just want to make
clear that by no means am Ianti- science or anti-reason,
right? I'm very much a believerin science and scientific
(02:52):
progress. And the points I'mgonna be making are pretty
nuanced, you know. So it's, it'snot rejecting science, it's just
pointing out that science andPure Reason is not the only
modality or the only way ofunderstanding our place in the
world and of, of derivingmeaning from life. And not only
that, but you know, if it is ouronly modality, then it can be
(03:15):
quite harmful, actually, andquite alienating. So that's all.
So I want to make thatdisclaimer about science. I'm
pro science. And I just wannamake that clear up front.
So in terms of our relationshipto nature, I think we're
starting to move into a placewhere we're rediscovering that
to a large extent, you know, andI'm thinking about this, Terence
McKenna, quote, nature istalking to us. This is not a
(03:39):
metaphor, right. And so that'sgonna be kind of the theme of
our discussion around astrologyas we go through this episode.
Welcome to spiritual but notridiculous, a podcast that
explores the world ofspirituality, from a grounded
(03:59):
and clear eyed perspective. I'myour host jayadev, a yoga
teacher, Vedic astrologer,attorney and technologist.
(04:24):
So astrology is, again, it's abig topic. It's, it's definitely
a thing that's blowing up inpopularity right now. It's been
gaining in popularity going backto at least 10 years ago, I
would say, and obviously, it hada huge resurgence in the 60s and
70s. But but we're going toanother another resurgence right
(04:44):
now. And so I think it's anespecially relevant moment for
us to be talking about it too.
It's one of those interestingthings that's so popular, but
also so maligned by themainstream and the intellectual
elite at the same time, right.
It's sort of coming into theback door. And people are
talking about it working withit. Everybody, everybody I know
(05:04):
is into astrology at this point.
And you see these these apps,you know, like costar and the
pattern are gaining a lot oftraction, you know, celebrities
are talking about them. And sodespite this astrology being
part of the great superstition,purge of the modern era, you
know, for the longest timenewspapers have been printing
horoscopes, and yeah, we see themainstream media really covering
(05:27):
this resurgence as well. You'vegot the Atlantic talking about
how Millennials are really intoastrology. Going back to 2018,
you've got the New Yorker,writing about millennials, in
astrology as well and 2019. Andthis whole app, the astrology
app industry, I think, is worth$40 million, at least at least
(05:47):
as of 2020, according toBusiness Insider, so it's
definitely a thing and you know,in like in like, with yoga,
where we've got the terminologyentering the common lexicon, or
with karma, and mantra and allthat. It's the same thing with
astrology. You know, everyonetalks about mercury in
retrograde and their Saturnreturn, and everyone knows their
(06:08):
sun sign, even if they don'treally, quote unquote, believe
in astrology. So yeah, it'sdefinitely present in our light
Geist, and I think ourrelationship to astrology, as a
culture is really summed upwell, in this famous quote from
Arthur C. Clarke. I don'tbelieve in astrology, I'm a
Sagittarius and we're skeptical.
(06:29):
Right? So it's that idea, right?
It's that idea that I thinkwe're able to sort of hold these
two ideas simultaneously, with alittle bit of cognitive
dissonance perhaps. So yeah,I'll be in this episode, I'm
going to be talking about thehistory of, of science going
back to the Renaissance, andhistory of religion and to some
extent as it's relevant, andthen the 20th century
developments that have kind ofbrought us back to astrology.
(06:51):
This is very ancient practice.
And so I eventually wind my wayaround to talking about vedic
astrology and the differencesbetween Eastern and Western
astrology because I personallypractice Vedic Astrology or
Jyotish. And actually, in termsof is like Geist. A few weeks
(07:11):
ago, there was an episode of TheNew York Times Modern love
podcast that featured a storythat kind of revolved around
Vedic Astrology. So I'll putthat in the show notes. And I
recommend checking that out aswell. But yeah, I think
astrology, if you look, if youlook back over the history of
the Western, Western Westerncivilization, it's been popular
during periods of heightenedintellectual luminosity, really.
(07:34):
So you see it, you know, beingused widely in the Greek and
Roman antiquity, and theHellenistic era in Alexandria,
in the high Middle Ages, andobviously in the Italian
Renaissance, and the Elizabethanage. And so it's something that
keeps popping up right? Andfamous, famous thinkers, famous
asstra astrologers include Platoand Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas,
(07:57):
Dante kappler himself, Gerdaeats, and Carl young, who will
come back to a little bit. Soastrology has been with us for a
long time. And I think it's timefor us to, to embrace it really,
is what I'm saying.
So some of the commonmisconceptions about astrology
(08:18):
that will tease out as we gothrough the episode include that
it's about predicting thefuture, which which is really
not. And we'll talk about that,that you know, that it means
that the universe isdeterministic, or that
everything is pre determined.
That's also not true. There isfreewill with astrology, and
we'll talk about that later.
There's this misconception, Ithink that the planets are doing
(08:40):
something to us. You know, Ithink that's a lot of times when
you hear somebody sort of, sortof criticize it or poopoo it,
you know, they're talking like,oh, it sounds so ridiculous,
talking to planets be doingsomething to us, because I think
most people are still trapped inthis kind of materialist
worldview, which we'll unpack ina little bit as well. And, you
know, there's this notion thatastrology is not a science, when
(09:02):
in fact it is, and we'll talkabout that. So I, for me,
astrology is extremely lifeaffirming. What it's doing is
it's it's a way of capturing thecycles of life using these very
deep archetypes. It's a way ofgiving you a snapshot of your
past karma. And it's ultimatelya way of helping you to find
(09:23):
balance and courage and innerresolve. It's helping you to
utilize your incarnation to thehighest, most meaningful and
fulfilling manner. You know,it's helping to see that all
gifts are wrapped in challengeand how there's ways to approach
challenge in a very gracefulway. And I think you know, a big
(09:45):
part of what I'm saying in thisepisode is that astrology is a
way for us to pierce throughthis tyranny of mind and to
overcome the resistance that themind has to non rational ways of
knowing. So astrology is reallynothing less Then a grand
restoration of soul and andMystique, and a redefining of
our relationship with nature.
It's a poetic recognition andintegration of the discoveries
(10:09):
of modern physics and depthpsychology, which we'll explore
as well in this episode. Sothat's, that's just teeing up
the discussion there. I wantedto, before we get into it,
really, I wanted to just talkabout a way to think about
astrology as I go into thisdiscussion. And so, you know,
one way to approach it is thisyoga view of the nature of
(10:33):
reality, which is, you know,whether you're a person who
believes in Brahma or thegoddess of classical Tantra, the
yoga view is that the universeis imbued with intelligence at
every level, the universe isself aware to varying degrees.
And so it's like an enormousliving entity. And so the cosmos
(10:53):
or the Goddess, or whatever youwant to call it, is continuously
creating the world we live in asan act of play, and an act of
love. And so this worldview ispantheistic. And it's been sold.
And so this is also the view ofastrology, these, these two
views are in line. And I thinkthat's why I think that's why
(11:15):
Jyotish or Vedic Astrology isultimately considered to be part
of the larger yogic tradition.
So in this sense, astrologersare Yogi's, really, and we'll
talk more about this too. Butyou know, this, this worldview
of this sort of self awareuniverse flies in the face of
this dogmatic, modernmaterialist scientific
(11:36):
worldview. And so there's a realtension here. And that's the
tension that I want to try toalleviate in this episode. So
another way to think aboutastrology is that, you know,
it's like the earth, the cosmosis like the earth, the universe
is made up of these variouscycles and currents and eddies
and waves of energy. And we cansee this the most immediately,
(11:59):
and the most apparently in theorbit of the planets and other
celestial bodies. But it's alsothere in these kind of unseen
energetic forces. And some ofthese forces science has already
recognized, like gravity andelectromagnetism, right? So it's
just these invisible forces thatare out there. And astrology is
also a way to tap into those,and in some sense to measure
(12:21):
those things or to, tounderstand the cyclical nature
of those right. And so theplanets are both reflecting ag
man magnifying these cosmicforces. And this is part of what
we'll come to understand in thisepisode. And it's so important,
I think, this discussion is soimportant because the cosmology
of a civilization ultimatelyreflects and influences all
(12:44):
human activity and understandingwithin that civilization. So I
think it's that's thatimportant, you know. And just,
I'll finish this, thisintroduction with a brief
history of my ownrelationship with astrology. So
going back to 2013, I was in aBurning Man camp, just through
(13:04):
happenstance. It wasn't evensomething I planned on doing.
The last minute I joined this,this archetypal astrology
Burning Man camp. So it was like70 people, mostly astrologers
offering astrology to the playaas our as our gift to apply it.
And it was fascinating becauseit was like a deep immersion
into astrology, kind of jumpinginto the deep end, in a sense,
(13:26):
and it was beautiful, because Iwas with all these people who
are talking about thesearchetypes that I had never
really heard much about before.
And I've always been curiousabout astrology. But this was my
first real deep exposure to it.
And you know, we'll see in aminute that a big part of my
thinking around astrology hasbeen influenced by this
astrologer and academic Ricktarnis. And what's crazy is that
(13:48):
he was in her camp, and I knewhe was in our camp, but I didn't
really know who he was, youknow. So looking back now, just
amazed that I was in a BurningMan camp with Rick tarnis. So,
so yeah, 2013 was when I reallystarted to get curious about it.
And then it wasn't until a fewyears later that I you know, I
went to the jungle and did Ioscoand Peru and, and Amazon. And
(14:10):
that experience really opened meup to other kind of ways of
thinking and being more deeplythan let's say yoga had before
that. And that's when I hired myfirst astrologer I came back
from the jungle and immediatelyhired Western astrologer and had
a reading and that reading wasso profound and so
transformative. And I gainedsuch deep respect for the
(14:33):
practice of astrology. And then,a few months later, I went to
India, I found one of myteachers than the Malia's, who
was also a Jota. She practicesVedic Astrology. And I got a
reading from him. And that wasalso very eye opening and sort
of just made me feel understoodin a deep way for the first time
(14:55):
and really gave me the courageto start approached my life in a
new and creative way. And then,a year after that I had another
Western reading more of an arcof archetypal reading with Erica
Jones, one of the women in myBurning Man camp. And that
reading was so profound, sotransformational. And just to
(15:16):
give one example, towards theend of the reading, she asked me
this question. The Cosmos wantsto know why I am refusing to
wield my power. And it was oneof those questions. It was like
a Zen koan, you know, I, my mindwent blank, I had no thoughts,
and I realized that I didn'thave any conception of my
(15:41):
relationship to power. And itset me on this long journey of
exploring my relationship topower and, you know,
understanding different kinds ofpower and soft power. And I, you
know, it really changed my wholeperspective around power. And
that was just one of many, manythings in that reading. So, so
I've had this, this greatjourney through astrology, and
(16:01):
I'm so blessed and fortunate nowto be, you know, trained in in
as an astrologer in what, inVedic astrology and offering
readings. So it's a real passionof mine, it's maybe my favorite
thing right now. So I just soexcited to go into this episode
and to explore it.
(16:29):
Let's go back and explore thehistory of science and to some
extent, religion, in order totee up a discussion of the
relevance of astrology in themodern world. So in order for us
to understand how we've gottento this place in modernity, of
(16:52):
skepticism, and materialism, anda rejection of these deeply
powerful ancient ways ofunderstanding nature and the
universe and our relationship toit, I think we need to go back
to the Renaissance, tounderstand sort of the
trajectory of Western thought,and how that ultimately led to a
(17:16):
rejection of, of the installmentof nature basically. So I want
to start this session with aquote from Rick tarnis. One need
not be graced with propheticinsight to recognize that we are
living in one of those rareages, like the end of classical
antiquity, or the beginning ofthe modern era that bring forth
(17:38):
to great stress and struggle, agenuinely fundamental
transformation and theunderlying assumptions and
principles of the culturalworldview. Ours is an age
between worldviews, creative,yet disoriented, a transitional
era when the old cultural visionno longer holds, and the new has
(18:00):
not yet constellated. So I thinkthat quote, tees up nicely, our
little trip back in time to theRenaissance, and to the
Copernican revolution, whichwas, in large part this, this
turning point that led to themodern world. Because I think to
(18:20):
understand astrology, and itssignificance in our present
moment, it's necessary tounderstand how we got here, this
kind of strange inflection pointwhere we are slowly and suddenly
finding our way out from underthe tyranny of mind and the
tyranny of reason. So let'sexplore the history of Western
thinking. And I just want to saythat my thinking around this
this subject has been primarilyinfluenced by Rick tarnis, but
(18:43):
also fritjof Capra, AmitGoswami, and my teacher Ananda
Rotorua, so much gratitude toall of them for shining the
light, or helping me to find thelight of the darkest night. So
the Copernican revolution, youknow, if you go back about 600
years, at that point, you know,there was everyone thought that
(19:04):
the sun revolved around theearth, and there was the earth
was flat. And so there was areal significance to Copernicus,
helping people to understand orstart to understand that the sun
was actually the center of thesolar system. You know, he
showed that if you change theperspective that all of our all
the math of around astronomywould actually become quite
(19:26):
simple and much simpler. Andwhat's fascinating about this,
too, as somebody who's studiedthe history of East and India,
especially, is that this is asharp contrast to what, what
Yogi's and Jota she's and otheryou know, people in India at
that time understood, I mean, atthat point, people in India had
understood for 1000s of years,if not longer, that the earth
(19:49):
rotated around the sun. And soit's like Europe is coming quite
late to this party. But yeah, soso Copernicus and then you know,
those who followed sort ofshifted substantially the way
that people thought about ourplace in the universe because of
this heliocentric revolution.
It's a fundamental turningpoint, and Western civilization.
So up to that point, there was,you know, everyone believed in
(20:15):
this sort of grand cosmic order,and, and in sort of this
interconnected relationship withnature, and I want to emphasize
to you that Copernicus, and youknow, Kepler, and Newton, all
these guys, all these earlypioneers, they still saw their
scientific breakthroughs andrealizations, as divine, the
divine illuminations as likespiritual awakenings to this
(20:39):
grand cosmic order. So theyweren't, it's not it's not like
we went straight fromsuperstitious beliefs and
religious dogma, straight toPure Reason and science, right.
It was a gradual process ofstill living in that court sort
of cosmic order, universe, thoseso to speak. So they believe
that there was this cosmic orderthat was created by some creator
(21:02):
to be known and admired by humanintelligence. And I think it's
important for us to understandthat that was that was still the
kind of in the middle you at thetime.
So it's really for these earlypioneers in modern science, the
primal world was still in soldand alive and living a conscious
(21:25):
thing that was communicatingwith us, right. Again, Terence
McKenna nature is talking to us,right? So, as science and
Western philosophy evolved overthe centuries, it did
increasingly increasingly rejectthe old and sold primal world in
favor of reason andunderstanding everything through
the mind. But it was a gradualprocess. And I think this
(21:47):
movement away from superstitionand religion, towards reason and
science was happening for goodreason, obviously, right? We
needed we needed to sort of doaway with the abuses of
religious dogma. And to increasepersonal freedom. I think
(22:07):
through through this revolution,we needed this course
correction. But what a part ofwhat I'm going to be outlining
in this episode is that in thatprocess, we lost something along
the way. We overcorrected. Andwe lost touch with the
intelligence of nature, I think.
Because reason and his modernworldview that we still exist in
today is a worldview ofseparation and mechanization,
(22:27):
right? This view that the modernworld is a mindless machine
filled with atoms that are setin motion by an intention, this
big bang with no inherent orderor purpose. In a cold and empty
universe, you know, it's a, it'san alienating is a deeply
alienating worldview. And sowhat I want to what I think is
(22:49):
fascinating is that this, thissort of priori assumption about
the nature of reality that youknow, that it's separate, and
that it's mechanistic, andmaterialistic, and all that, it
was really an assumption thatall of scientific discovery was
founded upon, but it wasn't, itwasn't the result of a
(23:13):
scientific hypothesis that wasthen proven out, right. So it's
still to this day, this, thisunderstand our understanding,
our sort of cosmic cosmologicalunderstanding of the nature of
the cosmos is still based on anassumption, which I think is
fascinating, because, you know,scientists today are so arrogant
and dogmatic about thisassumption, despite the fact
(23:36):
that it's just an assumption. Soanyways, we'll come back to
that, but it was, you know, soit was Francis Bacon really
unrated Rene Descartes, who madethis assumption into kind of an
accepted fact. Right? They,they, they thought that objects
out there cannot contain anyhuman qualities or projections.
(23:57):
Right. It was just it seemedlike it wasn't consistent with
this new scientific worldviewthat they were developing. And
so we live in the shadow of thisassumption today. And this
assumption, you know, does itdid seem to pay dividends?
Right? It seemed to support theadvance of progress, especially
technological progress. And themore that we saw, the more that
(24:18):
we saw the world and nature assomething to be manipulated and
dominated. And the more we sawit as separate, the more we seem
to achieve a sort of progresswith that. But But yeah, I mean,
just thinking about the arrogantsuperiority of those who are
still enthralled by the cult ofmind that came out of this. And
the fact that it's entirelybased on a set of assumptions
(24:41):
that have actually failed tokeep up with the two biggest
developments of the 20thcentury, which we'll talk about
in a minute, is an importantpoint that I don't want to get
lost. So, with this split, youknow what the split is, is being
Driven between us and thecosmos, we begin to see nature
(25:03):
as a mere resource to beexploited for human benefit.
Before the 17th century, thegoals of science were wisdom,
understanding the natural orderand living in harmony with it.
In the 17th century, thisattitude which we could call an
ecological attitude changed intoits opposite. Ever since begun,
the goal of science has beenknowledge that can be used to
(25:27):
dominate and control nature. Andso today, both science and
technology are usedpredominantly for these
purposes, which we can see is adangerous and harmful and anti
ecological endpoint. And so,again, we see nature as
mechanistic and personalunconscious, it's simply there
(25:48):
to do our bidding. And it's justbecause we say so and so nature
seems to imply, at least it diduntil the 19th century.
But I think it's, I think thatthe nature of the cosmos too, is
that it just reflects back tous, whatever we project onto it.
(26:10):
And so if we think that natureis mechanistic and impersonal
and unconscious, then I thinkthe cosmos will happily reflect
back to us this reality. And soin that sense, I think the
cosmos has infinite patience. SoI think the sad part of this
story is that, you know, theprice you pay for this kind of
(26:34):
arrogant, alienating worldview,is living in a state of
alienation. You know, we'vewe've achieved autonomy over
nature, in exchange foralienation, which is, which I
think is a is too big of a priceto pay. And so with this, with
this evolution, up through, youknow, Francis Bacon, and Rene
(26:54):
Descartes, and all these WesternEuropean scientists and
philosophers, what develops is aabsolute superiority of the
Western mind over all others,you know, other worldviews,
other errors, other other timeperiods, other cultures,
especially, and other modes ofcognition. And again, it's not
(27:15):
based on it's not like, therewas a scientific proof that this
worldview was superior, it wasjust all an assumption, you
know, a sort of a, everyone justadopted it, and then just kind
of Lord have that superiorityover others. And I think this
alienation and this, thisseparate worldview, is uniquely
(27:35):
a product of the mind and theego, which by its very nature
sees everything as separate. Youcould even say that this
alienation and this sort ofseparation is one of the primary
European exports, you know, thistyranny of mind. So I'm happy to
say that I think we are finallytruly reckoning with it in this
current era. And, of course,it's no accident, that the
(27:58):
Renaissance and the age ofreason that we're talking about,
coincided with the birth ofmodern colonialism, you know,
because this arrogant supremacy,of a certain kind of European
way of life, was then thrustupon the rest of the world, you
know, in violent ways. And so,so I think, you know, we can say
(28:20):
that the tyranny of mind this,this European worldview, is
itself a form of colonialism.
And this is why I think it'slargely the spiritual traditions
of non European cultures, or preRenaissance traditions, that are
increasingly becoming anantidote to our modern crisis of
meaning. And again, like I said,at the beginning, I'm not anti
reason or anti science, Isupport a holistic approach to
(28:43):
life that includes the mind, butnot at the expense of the heart
and the soul, or theenvironment, for that matter.
Okay, so that's just a littlebit about the history of the
development of science, goingback to the Renaissance, and
then coming up through theenlightenment. And I wanted to
just I wanted to go into alittle sidebar about monotheism,
(29:04):
and, and then the death of God,right. So another big influence
here is the trajectory that wetake once we start moving into
the Age of Reason, wherereligion plays less and less of
a role, but it also has a heavyinfluence on what I think is the
scientific worldview, withoutmaybe scientific knowledge of
(29:27):
the past, right. So if you lookat monotheism and Europe, they
believe they believe that manwas made in the image of God.
And so God and that, in thatconceptualization is the supreme
subject, who created the worldas a separate object. And so as
a result, because we're made inthe image of God, you know, we
(29:48):
are separate. God is separate upthere somewhere in some other
reality. Heaven is separate, youknow, so I think there's this
this approach to the world thatcomes From monotheism and from
European religion, Christianityheavily influences the
scientific worldview that comesout of Europe as well. So then
as reason started to rise andreligion began to wane slowly,
(30:10):
slowly, then, you know, we hadto take on Europeans had to take
on that role of SupremeIntelligence presiding over this
alien world, this mindless,soulless vacuum, with no
inherent purpose behind servingour material needs. And so we
can trace this process ofincreasing alienation through
Descartes, Locke, and Hume andKant, and all these Western
(30:34):
philosopher Schopenhauer, Darwineven and marks. And then Nisha,
who had the wherewithal to seewhat was happening. And he
really kind of raised the alarm,I think, you know, in 1882, he
needs to declare that God isdead. And actually, I think I
wanted to share the full quotefrom that, actually. So here,
(30:54):
here's Nisha.
God is dead. God remains dead,and we have killed him. How
shall we can comfort ourselves,the murderers of all murderers?
What was holiest and mightiestof all that the world has yet
owned, has bled to death underour knives? Who will wipe this
(31:19):
blood off us? What water isthere for us to clean ourselves?
What festivals of atonement?
What sacred games? Shall we haveto invent? Is not the greatness
of this deed to great for us?
Must we ourselves not becomegods simply to appear worthy of
it? And so yeah, I think this isnature being very insightful
(31:43):
here. And yeah, callingattention to this sort of
trouble that we've gottenourselves into by the late 19th
century. And so then you can seethe trajectory of modern
philosophy after that seemsdeeply troubled. You know, if
you look at the existentialists,from care regard to Heidegger,
and Sartre and kumbu, you know,if you read their works, which I
did in law school, because Ithink I was feeling very
(32:04):
existential back then do you seethat? Yeah, they're deeply
disturbed, I think by thisalienation, right? That's kind
of the theme, the overarchingtheme of, of existential ism. So
by the end of the 19th century,we've ended up in this situation
where, just like, the antiquatedview that the Earth was at the
center of the universe, we arenow suffering from this flawed
(32:27):
perspective, placing the humanperspective at the center of
knowing. And so we were in thisdeep state of alienation. You
know, we feel that man is justthis kind of curious accident
resulting from random andmeaningless collision of atoms
and Darwinian evolution. And soit's, it's not a very comforting
(32:48):
place to be right. Butfortunately, we then have two or
three, depending how you want tocount it. These two these these
developments, the common the20th century that begin to offer
a different way. And that's whatI want to explore in the next
section.
(33:15):
So in the 20th century, we seethese two developments that both
arise out of the scientificendeavor. There's depth
psychology, and there's quantumphysics. So these, these two, I
think, are the key to saving usfrom ourselves, so to speak, or
for undoing the tyranny ofreason, in the 20th century. So
(33:40):
let's look at depth psychologyfirst. So starting in the late
19th century, and going into theearly 20th century, we see the
influence of nature, actually,on psychology. And so this
relatively new field ofpsychology develops with William
James and in America, and Freudin young and Europe. And as, as
(34:01):
we start to see the recognitionof the existence of an
unconscious, the mind starts tolose its position of power, you
know, you got Sigmund Freudcoming in first, and developing
his theory of the unconsciousand the influence of the
unconscious. And so it's like,all of a sudden, we're at the
we're at the mercy of all theseon conscious influences. What
(34:24):
does that mean for the supremacyof mind? Right? For the
supremacy of reason, it meansthere's trouble afoot. So it's
like, what is going on here?
What does it mean that there'san unconscious right and so, so
Freud really set the stage here.
And then, you know, WilliamJames talked a lot about the
importance of acknowledging theexistence of all kinds of other
ways of being and differenttypes of conscious states, you
(34:47):
know. And Carl young, though,came in and really ran with it,
and he's the one who started tointroduce these these modalities
from antiquity and to have trulyan open mind when it comes to
how to understand ourselves andour place in the world. And so
he brings in this stuffpsychology, that is then located
(35:11):
at the intersection of theEnlightenment, you know, it's
still science, but then alsoromanticism. So there it brings
in the humanities and mysticism.
It's, you know, it's mythic,it's symbolic, it's numinous.
And it's, it's a real challengeto pure rationality in a in a
beautiful and important way. Andin young, I think, you know,
the, these two developments, I'mtalking about Deaf psychology
(35:31):
and quantum physics. They gohand in hand, because young was
friends with Einstein andWolfgang Pauli, and all these
guys. And so he was heavilyinfluenced by their work in
quantum physics. And so younghere starts to, in his practice
with patients, he starts toencounter profound
synchronicities. There are somegreat ones documented in his in
(35:54):
some of his books, and some someof the papers that come out of
that time. But I just wanted tohighlight one to give an
illustration. So he had this, inthe early days, I think, around
the turn of the century, youonly had this young female
patient, and she was a realtough nut to crack like they
weren't making any progress inher and her therapy. And part of
that was because she always knewbetter about everything. And she
(36:18):
had a very good education. Sothis gave her this kind of
ideally suited kind of armor,for breaking through any kind of
mental barriers, and kind of ahighly polished like Cartesian
rationalism, and a very linearidea of reality. And so young
was having a very hard timegetting through to her. And so
(36:38):
after many fruitless attempts tosoften her rationalism with
compassion, and these othertechniques, young began to just
hope for some kind of unexpectedand irrational breakthrough,
that something would happen thatwould burst her intellectual
bubble. And so they were in atherapy session one time, and he
was sitting opposite her withhis back to the window
(37:00):
listening. And she was talkingabout this impressive dream that
she had had the night before, inwhich someone had given her
golden scarab, this costly pieceof jewelry. And while she was
telling him this dream, he heardsomething behind him gently
tapping on the window. And so heturned around, and he saw that
it was a there was this verylarge flying insect that was
knocking against the windowpanefrom outside in an attempt to
(37:23):
get into the room. And it seemedvery strange to him. So he
immediately open the window, andcaught the insect in the air as
it flew in. And it was a scarabbead beetle, a kind of gold
green beetle, that was actuallynot really known in those parts
of Switzerland at that time. Andso that looked like, it looked
(37:45):
like a golden scarab. And sothey he then handed the beetle
to his patient, saying, Here'syour scarab. And this
experience, punctured the holein her rationalism and broke the
ice of her intellectualresistance. And then they could
continue with their course oftreatment, which became quite
successful. And so it wasexperiences like this that
really influenced you allheavily. And, and, you know,
(38:06):
caused him to research and tothink deeply about
synchronicities.
So Young started to understandthat synchronicity can be very
healing because it's uniting theinner and outer world and
imbuing your experience withthat of deeper meaning in order.
And he saw it as theintervention of grace, you know,
(38:28):
graces in most traditions, theway that the cosmos or nature
sort of steps in and sends youthese little signals, or these
little gives you these littlenudges as towards evolution or
towards surrender or towardstrust, you know, and so, so
young saw synchronicity as thisintermission of grace, and a way
(38:48):
to kind of nudge patients tomove towards greater wholeness
and individuation. Because with,with these synchronistic events,
you're forced to surrender yourattitude of like, knowing
superiority into a state ofunity, and to acknowledge the
intelligence of nature, and thenunify the conscious and the
(39:10):
unconscious. And the, you know,as a result, you start to open
up more to the world. And soit's, it's a means for greater
personal expansion and forintegration. And I think you can
say the same things aboutastrology, as we'll see. And of
course, you know, practicingusing synchronicity, in this
way, you know, requires a preevolved, therapist, and you
(39:33):
know, you have to make sure thatyou're avoiding any projection
or narcissism when looking forsynchronistic events in the
world. But, you know, astrologyis similar in that way where,
you know, it does require anastrologer who's kind of wise
and developed enough torecognize patterns within within
things without projecting theirown unresolved issues onto that.
(39:57):
But anyways, youngstar natureand Persons surrounding
environment as this livingmatrix of potential
synchronistic meaning that couldilluminate the human sphere,
right, as return has put it. SoYoung starting to see these
synchronistic phenomena asfundamentally archetypal in
(40:17):
nature, and he saw thatarchetypes are the fundamental
governing principles of thehuman psyche. For young
archetypes are these autonomouspatterns of meaning that that
inform the soul and matter, theybridge, Mind and Matter, they
bridge the inner and outer thesearchetypes are very powerful in
(40:39):
that way. And so young saw bothpsychological and spiritual
aspects to this, this process ofworking with the archetypes and
the archetypal unconscious. Sohere we see a kind of a
tentative first step towardsbridging both science and
religion with this archetypalworldview, kind of creating a
(41:01):
new spirituality. I mean, Youngwas doing a lot, doing a lot for
humanity in the 20th century.
And so as a result of thisprocess with synchronicity, and
archetypal synchronicity, young,pretty quickly becomes drawn
towards astrology. As early as1911. Here we see evidence of
him using astrological charts inhis work with his patients. And
so young, has been quoted assaying that for him astrology
(41:26):
represents the sum of allpsychological knowledge of
antiquity. And so yeah, he'she's, he's using astrology
readings in his group ofpatients. And in this process to
start as he's starting to talkpublicly about this, he's really
taking on this enormous task ofcombating this enlightenment
tendency to uphold rationalautonomy, and to deprecate, you
(41:46):
know, antiquity and earlierworldviews, and he becomes quite
successful at it, you know,especially in his later years.
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