Embodiment, Wildness & Magic with Schuyler Brown

Episode Transcript
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Schuyler Brown (00:01):
The danger of modernity is the enchantment
with disenchantment. The worldbuilt from ignorance is
dissolving. And the opportunitythen is to begin to create a
world from wisdom.

Jayadev Woodford (00:27):
Welcome to Spiritual But Not Ridiculous, a
podcast that explores the worldof spirituality from a grounded
and clear-eyed perspective. I'myour host Jayadev: yoga teacher,
Vedic astrologer, attorney, andtechnologist.

(00:51):
Today I'm talking to SchuylerBrown, one of the wisest and
most grounded spiritual people Iknow. She and I always have
interesting conversations, so Iwas grateful to have the chance
to find the record one of them.
In this episode, we talked aboutgrace; classical Tantra and the
descending path; downhomeKentucky spirituality; roots and
rooting down; nature and thelost wildness of Europe; desire

(01:13):
and magic; attachment; prayer;late-stage capitalism; the
importance of community; and theart of embodiment. It was a sort
of collaborative riff on thepotential of modern
spirituality. It was also anepisode of misremembered book
titles. The Ramana Maharshibook, that Schuyler referred to

(01:34):
is called Be As You Are, and thebook that I referred to, is
called Help. Thanks. Wow. Youcan find these and all the other
things we referenced in the shownotes for this episode. Here's
my conversation with Schuyler.

(02:02):
My guest today is SchuylerBrown, a futurist, facilitator,
coach, teacher of embodiment andmeditation, and a writer. You
can find her atartofemergence.com, and her
essays and poems are on mediumat SchuylerBrown. And I'll put
these links in the show notes asalways. So welcome, Schuyler.

Thank you, Chad.
So good to talk to you.
You too, always.

Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot to get into here.
So I think I first met you as afuturist. And then I started to
slowly learn more about you overtime. And it's been an enjoyable
journey. And part of why I wasexcited to talk to you is
because I feel like we we sharea lot of common viewpoints and

(02:51):
approaches to spirituality, butalso have very different
approaches, in some ways, too.
So I like I like thatcommonality, but also the
differences. So I wanted tostart by talking about
spirituality. One thing I liketo talk about on this podcast is
how to define spirituality,especially in this day and age.

(03:14):
And I know you have a lot ofthoughts on that. So maybe a
good place to start then wouldbe how do you think about
spirituality? Or how would youdefine spirituality?

Hmm. Such a good, basic question. And I'm
realizing I haven't. I'm notsure I've ever defined it.
Because,

you know, what's funny is, it's not easy.
I've I've struggled with this alittle bit myself.

I enjoy the challenge. I like the question.
It feels provocative. So I'mgonna give it a shot. Let's see
what we got. Yeah, um,

Chad Woodford (03:50):
let me just say, Yeah, part of I think the
context here is, you know, partof the inspiration for this
podcast is that so many peoplethat I know, and that I've
talked to tend to be turned offby spirituality, people I
respect, you know, people who,who I love and I think that's
because so often spiritualityhas a kind of a bad rap, you
know, and so I think that's partof why it's important to define

(04:13):
it.

Yeah. And also, you and this is one of the
things you and I share chat is abackground or like, a revolving
door with the corporate world,right, we're frequently moving
in and out of that space. Andthat's my background, I had a
career in advertising. And soyes, I'm fluent. As Are you in a

(04:36):
world that doesn't centerspirituality? Right and and so I
also have lots of friends andcolleagues and acquaintances and
family members who don'tidentify with the the word or
would probably react to it. Soyeah, I'm feeling that that's

(04:58):
one of our points one of ourintersection points where we
have probably a commonexperience. Absolutely. So for
me spirituality isWell, the thing that's hard to
define is that it just permeateseverything from me. So it really
is a descending of spirit intomatter. For me, it's that

(05:24):
descending path. And so whetherI'm mothering my daughter, or
doing work, or sending an email,or a text message, or writing an
essay, or writing a poem, orworking in the garden, driving
the car, whatever I'm doing, Ihave an a part of my attention

(05:44):
on spirit. And maybe that needsdefinition. But for me, it's
that quality of sacredness, thedivine, maybe a cosmic
perspective, if you don't wantto talk about it in terms of
divinity, that could be just thepresence of something beyond

(06:06):
human, for sure. Whether that'snature and all of nature's
beings, or the ancestors orsubtle realms. It's like the
unseen grace, and I love it somuch. There's a love there that
I'm looking for it, it's like ifyou, this is new to me. And as

(06:30):
I'm saying this, I'm like, wow,this is so true. Wherever I go,
it's like a best friend, or,like a true love or a soulmate,
like I'm constantly payingattention to whether it's with
me or not,

I love that. I love how it's ever-present for
you. That's really amazing.

It took me a long time to get there. But I do
feel that these days, it's it'svery rare, there used to be
times when I would feel thecoming and going. And it was
like, you know, I'd have periodswhere I felt very spiritual, or
I felt very connected to spirit.
And then there were periodswhere now I understand that I
was probably contracted and or,you know, anxious or nervous or

(07:16):
reactive, or like in some partof myself that was having a hard
time. And that part of theexperience of that contraction
was like a cutting off of theflow of that connection to
spirit. And so I would feeldeserted, I would feel like the
magic was gone. And so overyears and years, and you know,

(07:43):
as time has passed, I haveslowly come to understand that
it's not gone. It's never gone.
And I I feel it most of the timewith very rare exceptions.

Wow, that's beautiful. Yeah, I have a lot of
reactions to that. Part of whatyou're saying reminds me of how
I think you know, you and I onething we share too is this
Tantrik background even thoughyours is more of a Buddhist
Tantrik background, and mine'smore of a Yoga Tantra. But
ultimately, they're the same andand part of what you're saying
reminds me of this thing thatthe topic was believed and

(08:19):
talked about, which is that theuniverse or creation was created
as an act of love by the goddessor whatever you want to say. So,
so part of what you're sayingreminds me of that and how so in
that sense, like everythingthat's happening in your life is
really an expression of lovefrom creation, even the pain,

(08:39):
you know, even no matter what itis, and so, yeah, like what
you're saying, because that'salways there. That's that
presence is always there. Yeah.
Yeah. And yeah, I can resonatewith that too. Because for me,
you know, for years now, I'vebeen working with these
different tantric goddesses indifferent ways. And it's been

(09:00):
such a great touchstone it'sbeen such a great place to go
when I do feel like I need alittle support, let's say, and I
can just, I can just tune intothese these archetypes. And, you
know, it's not just anintellectual exercise, you know,
you really feel it.

Yeah, absolutely. And I find the more
you do it, the more you feel it.
Right, right. It's like anyrelationship. It's like, one of
the things that I teach, whichwe'll probably get into is
embodiment.

Yeah. So we'll get to that.

And yeah, I mean, one of the very basic
lessons or things that youfigure out very quickly is that
the relationship with the bodyis like any relationship. So the
more love and attention and careand listening that you do with
the body, the more it responds,you know, just like any friend

(09:54):
would, it's like, Oh, I'm gonnaput some energy into this
friendship. And you do and itjust grows and grows and it's
the same with. For me that'sit's the same with embodiment.
And it's the same with thegoddesses or the archetypal
energies. At first there issome, I mean, I found an

(10:16):
actually, I still find like,just recently I've been working
with Lakshmi. Yeah, and forwhatever reason, over the course
of my life, this is one of my,my, one of the themes that
returns for me is this themearound money, and abundance, and
like, you know, feeling secureand my financial situation. And

(10:39):
so Lakshmi is has been hard forme to access. And I've never
really felt close to her untilrecently. And partly it's
because I've been putting in alot of work. Like I'm really
dedicating myself to reaching,you know, creating that
connection. And, and she'sresponding and so it's nice.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a two way street.
Absolutely.

Especially with the goddesses. The Goddess is
really want to be approached.
Yeah, they'll they don't,they'll stand back. Like, don't
hang back until you make theoverture.

Right, right.
Yeah, it's funny. I had anexperience recently, where I
felt like, spirit had abandonedme, on some level. You know, I
had this in my meditationpractice in the morning. There's
a part at the end, where youtune into the four directions.
And there's, in one of thedirections, I normally feel this
sort of presence, and I didn'tfeel anything. It reminds me

(11:42):
how, you know, at first, I was alittle bit like, I felt
abandoned, but then Iremembered, maybe I haven't been
putting as much into cultivatingthat myself, you know? Yeah.
It's a good reminder. Mm hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I also likewhat you're saying about how I

(12:03):
think you were saying thatthere's not a distinction
between spirit and matter. Andthere's one way to put it, as
you know, that spirit ismanifesting in different ways,
subtle body energy, but alsomatter. Matter is simply just an
expression or manifestation ofspirit. Right. So I think
that's, is that part of what youwere saying to?

Yeah, I mean, that wasn't exactly what I was
saying. But I agree with you.
What I was saying, which wasprobably less accurate, actually
was the, the bringing of spiritinto matter. But you're right,
it it already is spirit, right,in its own way. But I think
there's, you know, it's justthis I wonder if you've talked

(12:44):
about this on the podcastbefore, but just the, the
Tantrik path as a descending hasan imminent path, you know, into
life into the body onto theearth like this, I you know, I
talk about this coming homequality, like, just the full
commitment to being with what isarising, whatever it is, in

(13:10):
whatever form it takes. So thatisness of things and, versus a
transcending path where youmight go kind of up and out or,
like, reach sort of elevatedstates of consciousness, but
less connected to the embodiedor the material. world, right?
Um, for me, the It wasn't even apreference. It wasn't like I

(13:35):
made the choice. It was like thechoice was made for me. Um, I
mean, gosh, wow, that's a big. Imean, I guess I could say on on
the surface of it, you know, forone thing being born into a
female gendered body. And I'lljust say that to say that I gave

(14:00):
birth. And so, you know, I'vebeen in yoga for a long time,
as, as you know, and as youhave, and there were definitely,
early on I was, I liked theascetic path I like I liked a
lot of the aspects of some ofthe yogas that I don't want to
say deny the body, but it's moreabout mastering or controlling

(14:24):
the body. And I felt howpowerful some of those practices
are. And then I became pregnantand went through the birthing
process and became a motherwhich is its own form, like
massive initiation. And in thatprocess, I was just like, whoa,

(14:45):
the body, the body, like thesacredness of this body, and I
just felt that it had wisdom,way, way beyond my conscious
Mind or knowing and, and then Igot really interested in the
feminine, the divine feminineand, you know, was just more

(15:07):
prepared. I mean, for one thing,when you have a child, you're
sort of called to be here. Youknow, you're there's like,
there's not a lot oftranscending I could do so

That's got to be one of the more grounding
experiences in life.

Very, very grounding. That's exactly right.
It's like, you know, I wouldsometimes, like start to
transcend, and then so, so Ikind of had to find another way.
And that was a blessing.

Yeah, and we were talking about to gets to a
couple things. But one of myfavorite topics on the podcast
is his spiritual, spiritual egoand spiritual bypass, and how to
how to avoid it. You know, and Ithink what you're talking about,
and by the way, I haven'tcovered the ascending and
descending path so much in thepodcast, but I would love to,
but part of what you're talkingabout, though, I think is, you

(15:59):
know, by by being more, youknow, in your body by me being
more present, and, you know, inthe material world, it's maybe a
way to more easily avoid thisspiritual bypass trap, right,
like, you're less likely toidentify with this, you know,
elevated being who's above itall and all that stuff, right?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think are you I'm
just curious, just to see if Iunderstand the question, is the
question, Is it harder tospiritual bypass when you're
practicing the embodied?

Yeah, I guess that's the question. Yeah.

That's a really cool question. Yeah. Um, this is
so fun. Um,

well, cuz for me,

I mean, your experience?

Yeah, I think there's been like, in my
experience, practicing and beinga yogi and teaching yoga and
living in a spiritual world.
And, you know, being incommunity in India, and all
these things. So many people onthe path are, yeah, they're
ungrounded. Or they think thatspirituality means that you
can't enjoy life or that youcan't, you know, have fun and

(17:13):
all these different things. AndI think what I love about
tantra, especially, is thatthey're all about the sensual
world and using that as aspiritual practice.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think like, as
you were speaking, my mind wentto my roots in Kentucky. And
Kentucky is this reallybeautiful state and very
peaceful place, and it producedpeople like Wendell Berry, like
one of the great sages of ourtime, and a farmer. And that's

(17:50):
like, my grandfather was verymuch that type. And growing up
there, you know, I wasexperiencing very embodied
deeply embodied people all thetime, because they were working
with the earth because they wereworking the land, and they had
that kind of connection to theearth and to the land that we

(18:11):
miss. So often in a, you know,in a faster paced, or maybe an
urban environment or whatever.

I grew up in New York. So yeah, not that
experience so much.

Well, I think it was really formative for me to
experience people who wouldnever call themselves quote,
unquote, spiritual, but were incontact with spirit and had
spirit in their lives all thetime through their connection
with the earth. It was funnywhen I remember when my

(18:45):
grandfather like, late in hislife, was an adult, I was a yogi
and practice I was practicing inliving in New York City and
practicing yoga in New YorkCity, and I had that book Ramana
Maharshi. Hmm. What is the greatbook by him? It's like,

"Who are you?" [Be Who You Are]

Yeah, I was gonna say I am that or, okay. We
have to find that one. Butanyway, that was the book I was
carrying around with me. I wasreading. And I took it to
Kentucky. I was spending thenight with my grandparents and I
went to go take a nap oneafternoon and left it on the
table. And when I woke up, mygrandfather was sitting at the
kitchen table reading that book,oh, my god love it. And I walked

(19:28):
into the room and my firstresponses like, Oh, God, Oh,
God. And I guess because Ithought he would find it very
foreign or strange. And helooked up from the book, and he
said, You know, I agree withmost everything he's saying,
and, and that's when I reallyrealized my grandfather was a

(19:52):
great yogi.

Right, right.
Well, it's the perennialphilosophy, right? Like if you
boil all the spiritualtraditions down They all
basically say the same thing.
Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah.
You so you were probablyembarrassed at first. A little
bit about the book. Yeah. Andthen yeah, that's nice. You got
you're able to connect with himon that level. Yeah.

Yeah, it was actually very beautiful, very
deep. I mean, like, like, it's amemory that comes back from me
very fond memory. And it kind ofpulled the pieces of my life
together, like a couple of, Idon't know, maybe you can
identify with this. But therewas a lot of a lot of my young
life as I was exploring thesepractices, they were very

(20:39):
foreign to my birth family.
Yeah. And so to have mygrandfather sort of BLESS, you
know, the, the practice wasreally special for me. It
created a bridge that meant alot to me.

Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, I was fortunate
enough to grow up with aCatholic mother, but then a
father who is isn't was a moreof a Taoist, you know, and so I
had those two differentinfluences. And so it's nice
because he and I can connect onthat level,

to the Taoists are the best, they can connect
with everyone.

Right? Right.
They're so neutral, they're sotrue, the Way...

What you were saying also reminded me of a an
aspect of spirituality, or thepath that I've been exploring
more recently, and I think youand I have talked about briefly,
is the work of Bill Plotkin, andSoulCraft. And what I like about
his model, especially morerecently, is that he has this
kind of four direction approachto spirituality, where, you

(22:19):
know, yoga, and meditation andall that stuff is only on one
direction, so only one of thefour, right and so it's it's
really caused me to broaden myunderstanding of spirituality
and to think about these otherways, that of being spiritual,
that he talks about that, Ithink, when I when I think about
these things, I always think ofyou actually, because you've got

(22:41):
sort of cultivating your wild,indigenous archetype, which is
one of the practices or one ofthe directions. And then there's
this like, beloved Musearchetype that he works with,
and, and then there's thisnurturing sort of adult or this
sort of nurturing king or queenarchetype. And so I like I like
that there's not just the sage,but there's also these other

(23:04):
archetypes. And with even withinthe Eastern prong, which is the
sage, there's also thetrickster, which is another
important archetype, I think. Soanyways, what you were saying
just reminded me of how usefulit's been in my life to think
about spirituality more broadlyin this way.

Yeah, I mean, it really is. It's really
everywhere. And you know, one ofthe things that I've been, I
love that about Bill Plotkin,I've got that book here. And
I've been, I just looked at itthe other day, I was like, I
have got to read this book.
Because every time it'sreferenced, it is so aligned
with the way I see and feelthings. And so I know, I'm gonna

(23:45):
love it. What you just said, Ilove to, particularly the
indigenous piece, right? That'ssomething that is really calling
me. I mean, it has been for awhile, but the call is sort of
getting louder, to not onlyroute down and into the earth,

(24:11):
to the land where I am now andeven into my ancestral land,
like the Kentucky roots, which Ihave been doing for years, but
then going back to my, like,Celtic or Anglo Saxon, like,
where my people came from, like,Where was the indigeneity? Many,
many, many generations ago. Andone of the reasons this feels

(24:34):
important is because as youmentioned, I have studied the
Tibetan Buddhist Tantra for along time and I feel very close
to it and it feels very home,like home to me. But there's
really an important I think it'sreally important practice to

(24:54):
know like one of the things thatis draws me To the Tibetan
Tantra is that it has thatindigenous piece it has the Bön
right? Yes. So there is ashamanic piece. And there is
this. I don't even let's likethat you called it wildness,
which is really a great word.

(25:15):
It's the untamed, right. It'sjust that pure, raw, elemental
aspect of existence. And thatwas something that like, as soon
as I felt that in the TibetanTantra was like home. Yes. And I
still feel that way. Butthere's, you know, I can feel
that there's a way my ownNorthern European ancestry has

(25:37):
been denied. And one of myteachers, John Churchill, has
been talking a lot about this,and he's English. And he says,
you know, in the West, we reallyneed to reclaim these indigenous
wisdoms, because they weretotally wiped out, like, for the
most part. And for me, thatcalls back like the witch

(26:02):
trials, it calls back like, lostfolk medicine, folk beliefs, and
it's just something I haven'tyet spent a lot of time
studying. And I'm really excitedto get into it. I just got a
book on a Celtic goddess calledthe Morrigan. And she's like
this incredibly fierce, likefearsome goddess who reminds me

(26:27):
a little bit of Durga reminds mea little bit of Inanna. And I'm
just enjoying knitting some ofthe European indigenous
traditions into these easternpractices.

Absolutely. Yeah.
And for those who don't know,the bone, people were in Tibet,
before. Yoga essentially wasbrought to Tibet, from India. So
they were the original people ofTibet, and they had a shamanic
more of a shamanic tradition,right. So, yeah, I like what
you're saying, because there's alot there, actually. And, you

(27:04):
know, so I like what you'resaying, because I may be an
optimist. And I may be a littlebit unrealistic, but I do feel
like on some level, we're, we'reliving through the denouement,
you know, the end of a very longsort of dark time, that you're
kind of referencing, whereEurope was taken over by, you

(27:25):
know, the patriarchy and themind, and pure reason, and dogma
and all these things, you know,coming out of who knows where
originally, maybe, you know, theRoman tradition, but even before
that, coming through the Romantradition, and then coming
through Christianity and allthese things, but you know, done
stamping out all these beautifultraditions, these pagan

(27:49):
traditions, and it's, yeah, Ithink for, for me, I don't think
about these things very often.
But I do have primarily Irishancestry. And it was funny, I
went to speak, it's funny, we'rerecording close to Thanksgiving,
because a few years ago, I wentto the 50th anniversary of the

(28:09):
takeover of Alcatraz in SanFrancisco. And they had a
beautiful ceremony where all theindigenous people from all over
the world were invited to comein all participate in this drum
circle. And so most of thetribes did send somebody to this
beautiful ceremony that happenedto sunrise. It was freezing, it
was like 40 degrees orsomething. And what really

(28:32):
surprised me was they had peoplefrom Ireland participating in
their traditional Celtic garb,you know, and I was like, I was
like, Oh, yeah. I don't thinkabout that very often, you know,
but it's absolutely part of partof that. I mean, there. Yeah,
there are suppressed people onan island and yeah, so anyways,

(28:53):
I think that's fascinating.

Yeah, yeah, me too. It's been a it's a fun
exploration. Yeah, and probablyan important part of the healing
that needs to happen. For mean,for a lot of us, but Western
white people with regards toconnection to earth, you know,

(29:16):
like really feeling grounded, aswe said before, really feeling
our roots, you know, and withthat comes the sense of
stewardship of responsibility,the interconnectedness with all
natural things, and when youdon't have that as we haven't,

(29:37):
and we've been sort of uprootedand disconnected from our
heritage and our past andtherefore the earth. You
extract, you hurt you Objectify.
You know, it's like the Earth isno longer sort of a living,
breathing, being and I thinkthat's, you know, I think that's

(29:57):
part of what has drawn me to theEastern traditions where that is
still alive. Where Gaia, youknow, in whatever form in the
Buddhist tradition Lochana. Youknow, where the earth is still
alive in the consciousness ofthe people. Yeah. As a living
being. And, and not and that'snot an idea. There's a felt

(30:22):
sense of that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think when you lose that
connection to nature, I, youstart, obviously, you stop
listening, and you can't hearwhat nature is trying to say,
you know, and, you know, I mean,it's like Terence McKenna, I
think said, "nature is talkingto us. This is not a metaphor,"
you know? Oh, yeah. Yes.

It's not a metaphor. That's right.

Yeah, you know, and if you've had these
experiences, like with plantmedicine, or whatever, even
spiritual, you know, practices,like yoga can do this, too. You
can actually have a dialogue andyou do have the direct
experience that nature is thisliving, breathing intelligence
that is communicating with us.
Yeah, right.

Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And, you know, one of thethings that I think we'll get
into talking about is magic. Andmagic is, in a way, the alchemy,
the elemental wisdom, of allindigenous traditions. The

(31:26):
Tantra has its own alchemy andits own magic. And so getting in
touch with the Earth isessential to working with

magic.
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

And why would we want to work with magic?

Looking at let's get into that, you know, but I
do want to say, before we dothat I do I want to circle back
and just re emphasize that Ithink cultivating our wildness
is like one of the one of themost essential things we can be
doing right now. And I feel likethat's a lot of what you're
doing, or even if you like, Ithink about that, when I see
your Instagram posts with yourbeautiful mandalas in nature,

(32:07):
you know, that kind of thing. Soyes, it's so important.

Yeah, that's a good question. How do you
cultivate your wildness

I've been, I've been spending more time in
nature. And I've been doing notto be not to make this podcast
all about Bill Plotkin. But youhave been doing some practices.
You know, he has these specificpractices in his books about,
you know, being in nature, likethere's this, I'll give you one

(32:36):
example. He has this one calledthe mandorla, where and
"mandorla," I think is justItalian for almond, right. But
you go into nature somewhere andyou find a sacred spot. Maybe
you use your intuition, likeCarlos Castaneda was instructed
by Don Juan, you know, to findhis seat, in the books. And it's
that that kind of process, youkind of tune into the area, and

(32:58):
then you find your spot. Andthen you create a two concentric
circles that overlap to create aalmond shape in the middle, so
that the circles are quitelarge, large enough. So you can
sit or stand at either one, andthen sit or stand in the middle
and that and then almond shape.
And what you do is you you gointo one side. And the purpose

(33:20):
of this practice is to toresolve what seems like a
polarity in your life. And soyou go to one side and you
advocate vociferously for thatside, and then you go to the
other side, and you advocatevociferously for that side, and
then you sit in the middle, andyou don't try to resolve or you

(33:42):
know, synthesize or anythingconceptual, you just sit in the
middle, and you let the processchange you. Yeah. So that's, I
mean, that's maybe something youcan do anywhere, but you know,
it should be a nature. Andthat's one way for me at least,
of cultivating this or justbeing in nature and, and

(34:04):
listening deeply. Or, you know,finding something in nature, you
know, even a tree stump thatseems to carry some kind of
like, energy or personality orsomething, you know, maybe
communing with that. Mm hmm.
Things like that.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's worth saying because
you're in New York City rightnow. And I lived there for 20
years. And it's a city that Ilove very much, but those
mandalas that I make. I startedmaking them in New York City,
partly because I was reallydesperately wanting to be more
connected to nature and madethem in the public parks like in

(34:46):
Prospect Park. Yeah, I mean, allover the place in Brooklyn. And
yeah, so it just just to anylistener who lives in a city
like it doesn't, you don't haveto move to the country. You
necessarily or even, like, haveto go to a wild quote unquote
wild place there parts ofProspect Park that are very

(35:07):
wild. I found them. And, and youcan do, but yeah, yeah,
absolutely. And I don't youknow, I think it's um it's Yeah,
I had such a deep communion withnature even in the midst of New
York City. So yeah,

well, there's no reason to, to create an
artificial distinction, right. Imean, there's nature everywhere.
And maybe any minute. Yeah,right. Yeah.

So let's get to let's get to magic. And I don't
know, if I was noticing some ofyour recent work. You were
talking a lot about desire, andmagic, right. So I'm curious.
Yeah. What are your thoughts onon that? Ah, or just pick one.
Yeah. Tell me about magic.

I know. It's really it starts with desire. I
think that's really the thestarting place. Yeah, I just
recognized in my own life, youknow, it's funny when you have a
practice, and in my experience,it's like, things enter my
awareness, usually in a prettyconceptual way, or, you know, a

(36:46):
new idea will come through theteachings, and then it's an idea
for me for a while. And thensomething happens, or I begin to
relate to this, the insight in away where it kind of drops into
my body. And I'm like, Oh, okay.
So this is what happened withattachment. Okay, in Buddhism,
like, this is one of the rootroot poisons, basically, is

(37:09):
attachment. And, and it's theroot of suffering, it's, it's a
big problem. And so I known thisfor a very long time. But it was
only this spring that I reallyunderstood how attachment was,
first of all, how present itwas, for me pretty much all day

(37:35):
long, how I was constantlyattached to people behaving a
certain way to my daughter, youknow, or I was attached to
certain outcomes I was attachedto, you know, things that I
wanted to happen. And so, inparticular, I wanted to house

(37:57):
the spring. And I found thishouse, I was house hunting, and
this house was so perfect. And Itook my daughter to see it. And
we both fell in love with it.
And I began to practice somemagic. I didn't know that's what
I was doing. I was just prayingand meditating, and doing

(38:24):
everything in my power tomanifest this house for us. I
even I'm embarrassed to admitit, but took something from the
farm where I live here. I took arock and some water from this
farm, and went and planted it onthe land of this house, and was
asking the land here to talk tothe land there to, you know,

(38:49):
ensure that we get this house.
And then of course, I did theobvious thing, like I wrote a
beautiful letter when we put inour bid for the house. And I was
so sure I was going to get thishouse I had moved in, in my
mind. I had visualized where thefurniture was going where the
art was going. And then we gotoutbid. And I was devastated. I
was surprised. I was shocked. Iwas angry. And it really, really

(39:15):
hit me very, very hard. And Iended up talking to one of my
teachers at that time andtelling him the story. And he
said, Well, you black magic toyour way out of the black magic
to the house away. Basicallyhe's like, you can mess around

(39:35):
like that. He's like you wantedit too much. You were attached
to the outcome and I couldreally feel what he was talking
about. And I could feel theintensity of my attachment. And
I think I was it was a lessonfor me that moment where I began
to get curious about what doesit look like? To want something

(39:58):
because desire is important andnatural, and really a beautiful
guide in life desire is not theproblem. But it was. Right. We
were born from desire that soexactly very, very tantrik. Yes,
we were born out of desire, andwe, it drives us and it points

(40:23):
the way it's so so good. Butthat attachment piece was. So my
question for myself was what isdesire without attachment? Yeah.
And so I just began to look atthat in my own life and really
initiate what I call a selfstudy. So I'm regularly

(40:43):
initiating these self studies,and I'll journal and I'll
meditate and I'll walk and I'llobserve and dream. Yeah, so So
yeah, I learned a lot about myown relationship to desire.

Right, right.
It's funny, because I feel likepart of the attachment maybe
came out of the fact that youhad moved that like clod of dirt
or whatever. Was it? Was it arock? Was it rock? Raw rock?
Yeah, it was, yeah, move therock. And it's like, Man, I move
the rock! Like, I did all thethings. You know, why didn't I
get the place? You know?

Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. Exactly. I was soinvested body mind ritual.
Right. I was like, Wait aminute. I'm I did the magic.
Like it was black magic.

Yes. Black magic.
Yeah. You know, it'sinteresting, little side note.
Way, way back, you know, I think1000s of years ago in common
law, property law in England.
When you bought a house, youwould put a clump of dirt, like
on the house? To finalize thetransaction? So from the land?

(41:54):
Yeah. From the land. Yeah.
That's cool. Yeah. Interestanyways. Right? You're reminding
me of what you were saying?
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah,attachment is such a challenging
practice.

Well, the other thing I realized, I mean, what I
what I learned was that thefirst thing I needed to do was
purify my desire. And that thatpractice was pretty deep.
Because what I began tounderstand as I investigated was
that a lot of my desires werearising from wounding,

(42:30):
basically, they were arisingfrom trauma. So I want security
of this house, you know, why?
Because fundamentally, some partof me feels insecure, or, you
know, I want whatever this jobis, you know, or whatever the
project was. And it's like, Oh,interesting. Some part of my ego

(42:52):
is attached to that, or even weall know, this one, with
partners or romantic partners,like the desire there really
needed to be investigated,because there's a lot of shadow
and what draws us absolutely. topeople. And there's so many
lessons there. But yeah, thatwas just a that was kind of a

(43:13):
wake up call for me therecognition that what I was
feeling as desire, there is apure desire, desire. Yes, but
many of the desires I wasfeeling and responding to in my
life were coming from placesthat weren't poll or wise, they
were wanting for reasons thatneeded to be addressed.

Yes, yes, I think I think you're highlighting two
important things. First of all,I think there's a
misunderstanding, you know, withBuddhism or yoga or anything
that that desire is the problem.
You know, like, I think I thinkthe Buddha is even miss quoted
as saying that desire is thefirst problem when it actually
he was just saying, I thinkthat, you know, it's actually
our attachment, which is whatyou're saying, or, you know,

(43:56):
it's suffering that comes out ofthat interplay. So I think
that's the first thing it'simportant to remind everyone is
that desire is not the problem.
Desire is, like you were sayingbefore, a huge part of life. And
it's like, the whole universe iscreating out of desire. So, so
that's, that's a gooddistinction. And then I like how

(44:19):
you say there's this sort ofimpure desire, as in contrast
with, you know, pure desire.
It's like, there's two kinds ofsort of problematic desire,
right? There's the desire thatcomes from trauma, like you're
saying, and there's desire thatcomes from simple conditioning,
right? Like, for example, youmight think that you want to be
like a bohemian painter orsomething, because that's this

(44:41):
sort of one of these archetypesthat comes out of our society of
like, how to be free or how tobe happy or whatever. But maybe
you don't actually want thatit's just a desire that was like
planted in you but because youwatched a movie or because of a
family member or something,right. So it's like, part of in
my mind, part of the reason wepractice is because then it
helps us to, to cut throughthese, these sort of misguided

(45:02):
desires and identify theauthentic, you know, spiritual
desires, let's say or

Yeah. so beautifully put Yes, absolutely.
I agree. And the cut through isexactly right. It's that sword,
you know that, that slicingthrough the illusion? Yeah, and
I mean, one other thing that Ilearned was that, I mean, again,

(45:32):
culturally, so many of ourdesires are taboo, or, you know,
not handled very well aschildren. And so, really young,
I learned and probably many ofus learned that what I want
doesn't matter, actually. And soI think as adults, now there's a

(45:56):
lot of reclaiming of our desire,like so much of what we really,
really want in our heart ofhearts was squashed and not
always out of cruelty. It wasjust neglect, or it was just,
you know, ignorance or, youknow, our own parents had their
own traumatic upbringing, likewe have this the cycle that

(46:21):
we're finally trying to attendto, I think. But that's
something that I've reallywatched with my daughter is I'm
very attentive to her authenticdesires. And I try to
acknowledge them if I don't haveto indulge all of them. But at
least I acknowledge, I know youreally, really want that.

Yeah. Yeah. And allowing that right. Yeah,
exactly. Yeah,

exactly. And so, so yeah, it's it's a it's a it's
a bit of a mess. When you startto look at where your desires
are coming from. Yeah. But areally cool mess, you know, and
it can be untangled. I will saythat, that it can, it can
really, you can really get veryclear on your yeses and noes.

(47:11):
It's like, I want that. I don'twant that. And I'm not attached
to it. I also,

sometimes you have to follow through on these
desires to learn, you know, thatthat wasn't the thing or to not
be attached to least Yeah.

Yeah. What are you saying we need to make
mistakes?

Yeah, yeah, I certainly made my fair share.
Yeah. Well, so I'm curious.
Maybe this brings us to themagic part. But curious about
prayer, too, because it soundslike the way you were describing
this, this house processreminded me a little bit of sort
of a prayer. And it's becausepart of it is that I've been
working with this more myselfrecently, I read this book by

(47:54):
Anne Lamott on the power ofprayer. I think it's called
like, Sorry, Please, Thank You,or something like that [Help
Thanks Wow]. But she talks aboutdifferent types of prayers. But
you know, I grew up Catholic,and I had a very complicated
relationship to the idea ofprayer. And it's only recently
that I've started to explore itagain. And I, you know, I did
recently, intentionally sort ofstart praying for this specific

(48:17):
thing that I wanted, and then itseemed to actually happen,
because of that. I mean, whoknows? But so I'm curious about
your relationship to that. Andif that's what you were talking
about with this house? And, andif that ties into to magic at
all?

Ah, that's so beautiful. I'm so happy you
brought up prayer. Because Ithink it's one of the aspects of
spirituality that doesn't getdiscussed as much at least in
our circles in the yogiccircles, right? Maybe in
Christian circles, it stilldoes. Yeah, yeah. I think prayer

(49:00):
is an extremely profoundpractice that I've also been
trying to reclaim because Iwasn't really properly taught.
Maybe that happened to you, too,was like, expected and
prescribed in a way. And so Irebelled against it a little

(49:23):
bit. Yeah.

I also think that prayer, at least in the way I
was taught as a child was thissort of like overused, frivolous
thing that you would do to tosatisfy all these selfish
desires, you know, and youcertainly don't want to be going
around praying for thesatisfaction of all these petty
desires, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I mean,
for me recently, when I'm doingprayer or in prayer, there's a
lot of gratitude. You know, it'smore of a giving. Thanks, then
And a humbling kind of I mean, Ithink that's the other thing

(50:04):
about prayer is the kind of the,the bowing of the head and the,
the humility. Yes. In theprayer. So humility, gratitude.
And the selfless, right, likehow beautiful it is to pray for

(50:26):
other people's well being thatother people get what they need,
or yes, yeah, I think I thinkprayer is a really potent and
important tool. And I think itthis is my old trend spotter. My
the futurist in me, is like, Ithink this is the next big trend

(50:48):
and spirituality

is prayer. Yeah.
Interesting.

Yeah, I mean, I pray. And I have my own, it's
very personal. And I thinkthat's another thing about
prayer that's very, can be verysweet is how deeply personal
it's very intimate. Right? It'slike, between you and your God,
or you and whoever it is you'retalking to, could be an

(51:13):
ancestor. You know, and, and so,you know, for me, like, I'll go
into the heart, and it's justthis very intimate, very direct
communication. And I think we'reback to that two way street. Mm
hmm. You know, the more you doit, the more you open those

(51:35):
channels, the more things flow.

Yes, yeah. And for me, it takes place within
the larger container of theseother practices. I'm doing like
a mantra japa practice orsomething that's sort of, you
know, showing some dedicationand devotion and some surrender.
sort of around the prayer, yeah.

I guess I haven't really gotten to the
magic part. But it's such afunny word. I think it's kind of
loaded. And so I back away fromit a little bit. But

it's a big word.

It's a very big word. And I guess there are a
couple things I would like tosay about it, or share and see
where you're at with it. One issort of recognizing our ability
to create worlds, like reallybecoming masterful magicians in

(53:02):
a way. Yes. Like, in the Tantra,as I understand it, it's like,
you know, first, the first youhave to dissolve the world
created from ignorance. Youknow, you have to kind of like
work through in a methodicalway. How what I think is reality

(53:23):
really isn't? It's like BobThurman says he's like, the
problem isn't that we think theworld is real. The problem is
that we think it's really real.
Okay, it's not really real part.
It's that concreteness. Youknow, it's this like, it's like
in life, you know, up to acertain point on the path. It's

(53:45):
like, you're really sort ofwalking through this world as if
it was concrete, and you're alittle bit a victim of your
circumstances. Yeah. And so, youknow, the practice helps to
dissolve the really realness ofyour situation of your

(54:05):
circumstances of this, you know,I'm knocking on the table of the
concreteness of things until youget to in the Buddhist, you
know, in Buddhism, you'll get toemptiness, right? And then from
there, once the illusion isdispelled, then you start to
create, then you start to buildworlds from wisdom. And it feels

(54:27):
to me like that's what'shappening for us on the
collective level. Now, this ismy lens, because this is my
mythology. Right, as Jung says,What myth are you living in?
This is one of the myths I'mliving in, which is that the
world built from ignorance isdissolving. Yes. And the
opportunity then is to begin tocreate a world from wisdom. Yes,

(54:52):
and that's, that's for me.
That's where the magic comes in.
And that's where I want to be avery very skillful, very wise,
very. You know, it's like I saidin a recent essay like that
question from The Wizard of Oz,are you a good witch? Or are you
a bad witch? I want to be a goodwitch.

Yes.

So then I think that the call is for many, many,
many of us to recognize thepower of the imagination, the
power of our desire, as you saidearlier, Chad, you're so right,
the world is created from ourdesire. Yeah. So what is it that
we want? We need to get reallysuper clear about that.

But yeah, I totally agree. And I think this
topic is, is very juicy, butalso very controversial in a way
because it kind of goes back tothis very sort of materialist
worldview that we're stillliving in. So I think most
people are still caught in thisright. And they, if you say

(55:54):
magic, they think, oh, that'ssomething I think that's
something we did away with awhile back. Right? We don't do
that anymore. And I think partof the so part of the process,
and I talked a lot about this inmy episode about astrology, but
part of the process is helpingpeople to get back in touch with
that. The magic I guess, or youknow, back in touch with this,

(56:18):
you know, and sold world thatthat you and I have experienced,
you know, and so that's a bigpart of what I you know, what
motivates me to share practicesand to have this podcast and all
of it, you know? Yeah, so,

so beautiful.
I'm so glad you said that. It'sso true. The in sold world I was
just listening to and I highlyrecommend. James Hellman's audio
book. It's actually his lectureson alchemy.

Okay, you know, it's funny, I, I've had
him on my list for a long time.
So yeah, the motivation I need.

He this, I can send it to you. But this this
lecture that he's giving over afew days, they recorded it, it's
a terrible recording. Okay. Youcan't hear when people ask
questions. It's, it's so thequality is so poor, but his
knowledge, his wisdom aboutalchemy is so insanely cool. And

(57:15):
he talks a lot about thecrowning of the world, the
installment, you know, he says,He's talking about the
environmental movement, and hesays, you know, what, why would
you save? Like, we have to seethe magic in the world, we have
to see the divinity or in theworld, or it's not worth saving.

Right. Right.
Absolutely. Yeah, I think it'sfunny because I feel like,
between Carl Jung and quantumphysics and the psychedelic
movement, you know, we've been,to some extent living in this
magical world for the pastcentury, but it's like it's not
evenly distributed. You know,nobody, not everyone has gotten
the memo, you know. So yeah, Ithink it's important to try to

(57:54):
spread the word.

Yeah, absolutely. One of my John
Churchill, who I mentionedearlier, a teacher of mine, he
says the problem with modernityis the disenchantment. The
enchantment with disenchantment?
Yeah. Yeah, actually, I have tosay he actually said, "the
danger of modernity is theenchantment with
disenchantment."

Yeah. Yeah. And I think people are, it's, it's,
it's very disconcerting to livein a world that is meaningless
and random. And I think thatthat instills in people this
sort of like, you know,unconscious bitterness, almost
or like, you know, like afeeling like a disappointment.

(58:39):
And then I think that's whatfeeds the enchantment, because
you're like, Well, I, I'm goingto buy into this materialist,
modern worldview, because then Idon't know in some way that
feeds like it satisfies thatlike dissatisfaction in a way
where you're like, well, it'sall meaningless. We proved it.
So let's just accept that andlike, you know, try to have fun

(59:00):
or whatever. And, yeah,

yeah, I think you're right to point to the
bitterness and then I would alsoadd the numbness. Yeah. That is
trauma. Yeah, really, like somany people are really very
dissociated from theirexperience, from what's going on

(59:23):
in the world, and pretty numbedout. And they think that that's
normal. And I know this becauseI know my own experience of
this, like early on when Istarted to really feel my
feelings. Like when I understoodthat that was something I needed
to do to heal. Yeah. I wasstruck by how often I would

(59:44):
check in with myself and I wasreally not feeling anything.
Right. And it wasn't thatnothing was there. It was just
that I was very numb that therewere layers of ice basically in
my system. I was frozen. I thinkthat's a big part of what keeps
the scientific materialism thisthis view, this modernist view

(01:00:06):
in place is that a lot of peoplereally can't feel. Yeah, the
magic.

Chad Woodford (01:00:12):
Yeah, you're you're describing that sort of
icy numbness is like the storyof my life in a sense, you know,
up until, you know, a decade agoor something, but But yeah, I
mean, it's just funny. I think,you know, I've talked about this
before in the podcast, but Ithink one of the main, you know,
entry points for healinghumanity is just helping people

(01:00:35):
to learn how to feel theirfeelings properly. You know,
we're not taught how to do this.
And it reminds me of when I wasfirst starting to learn how to
do this. I was in this Ayahuascaceremony. And I remember I was
talking to one of thefacilitators, and I asked her, I
said, so your do you mean, like,like, people just go around,

(01:00:55):
like, feeling their feelings allthe time? Like, you know, like,
kind of incredulous. You know,like, really? It sounds crazy,
you know? Yeah. It was such aforeign idea to me at the time.
Yeah. So,

Schuyler Brown (01:01:08):
chat, it's still foreign to a lot of people,
right?

Jayadev Woodford (01:01:11):
I mean, the process, I'm not, I'm not saying
that I'm like an expert, oranything. But no, I

am actually going to put myself in the
expert category. Because it was,it's been very hard one, I do go
around feeling my feelings allthe time. Somebody recently was,
I was doing, having conversationwith this guy. And he was
talking about some people weknow, who are public thinkers.

(01:01:36):
And I was like, I think I'm apublic feeler like that. So
yeah, but the thing is, it iscrazy. It actually looks crazy.
It's not normal. And, you know,I've finally sort of owned it as
an identity, you know, likepublic feeler because it's, it's

(01:01:58):
what we got to do. Like, we haveto normalize and learn how to be
with each other in the varietyof our emotions and the
unpredictability of them. Yeah,it's intense, yeah.

I feel like, so much of the corporate world is
sort of set up to squash emotionor to not have space for it.
Right. And so I want to talk, Ithink there's two more things,
at least I want to talk about,in that one of them is bridging
the corporate world andspirituality. That's a topic
that both of us really love andand are passionate about. And

(01:03:05):
the other one is something thatyou teed up earlier, which is
the kind of the burgeoningwisdom or consciousness
revolution that's happening. AndI wanted to, I think those
things are connected. So I justwanted to kind of throw that out
there and see what you think.

So I'm a little bit bearish on spirituality in
the corporate world right now.

Okay, okay. Well, then we can we can skip that
one. No, no, I'll just skip

it. But we should talk about why I don't
think they're compatible...

interesting. I want you I want to hear okay, I
want to hear this. Because,yeah, because I want to go back
when you and I first met, Ithink I used to say that what I
want to do is I want to bridgethose two worlds, you know,
technology, corporate, whatever.
And spirituality. Yeah. And Ihaven't thought deeply about it

(01:03:59):
recently. But I was Yeah. So I'mcurious to hear your thoughts
about that.

I think it's possible to integrate
spirituality and technology. Infact, I think it's imperative.
And I think it's possible tointegrate spirituality and I'm
going to call it commerce, justso we're, I don't want to call
it business. Because the thingthat is incompatible with

(01:04:27):
spirituality is capitalism, latestage capitalism that we have
right now. Yeah. They just Itried for too long. Um,
capitalism, co ops, andmanipulates and it just consumes

(01:04:50):
anything in its path towardsgrowth and towards profit. And
there's, I mean, evenmindfulness And meditation, like
so much of the mindfulness thatpeople do in, you know, in a
corporate space is around stressreduction, and health, mental

(01:05:14):
health, etc. So that they can bemore productive, more
insightful, healthier, notmissing days of work, etc. Like
there's always an agenda withcapitalism. And so I just
finally about a year ago, Ijust, I just had to come I
recognize the fact that they areincompatible. There is no such

(01:05:36):
thing is conscious capitalism.
Important point? Yeah. Thankyou. Okay. Well, then let's
pause on that important point.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's really important. I,
I agree with you. And reminds meof it familiar with this pop
philosopher, Slovaj Žižek. Yeah,he talks about that, right? He
talks about how capitalism isalmost like a blob, or a Borg
and it just absorbs everything,you know, you. You say, Oh,

(01:06:04):
we're gonna save the rainforest.
And it's like, yeah, we're gonnasave the rainforest. You know,
that'll be a great marketingthing, you know, and it just
absorbs everything and uses itfor those purposes. Yeah. So,
yeah, I think there's somethingthere. I think you're really
onto something.

I think we have to, like we really have to
accept and admit that, becausewe're prolonging the agony. And
we don't really have time. Idon't think to keep up with
this. This farce, really, thisthis we're deluding ourselves.

I agree.

And I'm not I'm not willing to play the game
anymore. Like I'm not willing tocompromise on my values. And,
and so I've kind of just stoppedtrying with the capitalist
world. My friend David and I,just about six months ago, maybe

(01:07:07):
less we had on Clubhouse we hada funeral for capitalism. I love
the

This is David Sauvage right? yeah, David
Sauvage

and I, so we had this funeral for capitalism, and
it came up. I mean, it was justan idea that came to both of us
because we were coming to thesame recognition, we're like, we
had been doing what we werecalling corporate shamanism,
like trying to bridge healingand corporate world, and we just
kept hitting a wall. And so wehit the wall enough times were
like, it's dead, like capitalismhas to die. So we had this

(01:07:39):
funeral. And it was really likeperformance art, it was really
beautiful. And we reallyeulogized capitalism for all the
good that it has done. And thenwe laid it to rest. And
something happened in thatprocess. Like it actually worked
in me. Well, like it actuallydied, capitalism died. Anyway,

(01:08:02):
so I'm not interested in tryingto bridge spirituality, and
business so much anymore.

As we're talking, I'm remembering this idea that I
think there's some kind of deepconnection between capitalism
and materialism as a worldview.
And it's like, they come out ofthe same tradition, and they're
so deeply connected. And it'slike, I think the process of us
waking up out of this nightmareof materialism is also a process
maybe of dismantling capitalism,to some extent, yeah. So

(01:08:33):
interconnected in my mind.

I agree. I agree how to do that. I'm not sure.
Yeah.

Well, this gets to so that it gets to the other
part of my question, I guess,which is, you know, maybe this
is just wishful thinking. Butpeople like Peter Russell and
others have talked about thisconsciousness revolution that's
taking place, you know, goingback a decade or so. And I liked
this idea. And if you look, incertain places, it feels like it
is true, and it is happening.
But at the same time, it feelslike the momentum, or the

(01:09:03):
inertia of the way we used tolive is so strong that it's like
how can it possibly how could itpossibly happen, right? And the
idea, though, is that there's arevolution potentially
happening, where consciousnessand spirituality is going to
revolutionize the way we live asmuch as the Industrial
Revolution, or the informationage, that kind of thing. So, so

(01:09:24):
yeah, I just, I wonder what youthink about that, because
sometimes I'm optimistic aboutit. And sometimes it feels like,
you know, the pandemic, forexample. I thought it was gonna
be an opportunity for us tofinally like, do away with a lot
of these unhealthy ways ofliving and treating the planet
and all this stuff. And it seemslike there's this very strong
pole to go back to like normal,right? So I don't know what do

(01:09:48):
you think about that?

I'm feeling Yeah. I don't think anything is
guaranteed. Sure, right now.
Like, I think we're actuallyit's up to us. And it's up to us
in practice, like, what actionwe take, and how we take it and

(01:10:25):
where we take it from right now?

Yeah, well, what is the most essential
action that we can take?

I mean, I think for me, it comes back to this
building a new world fromwisdom. And what that's going to
take is those of us who are on apath, whether it's spiritual or
ethical, or I wouldn't sayhumanist could because I think

(01:11:10):
it has to be beyond human. It'slike, including all living
beings, all my relations. Yes,I'm have to, like double down.
Like, the message that I'mgetting right now is that the,
the light, the forces of light,are, it's time to organize, and

(01:11:36):
coordinate efforts and act. And,and so I think the first act is
commitment. Like, you know, inthe Buddhist path, you have the
bodhisattva vow, right? So therecomes a time when you truly
recognize that our destinies areinterrelated, that we are not

(01:11:57):
separate, distinct beings. Andso I'm going to do everything I
can in service of all of usgetting there, like all of us
getting to salvation. And it's avow for a reason, because
there's something sacred aboutabout commitment, right. And
there's an imperative. And Ifeel like that's, the first

(01:12:19):
thing is like, it's not reallyabout going to yoga for because
I just kind of feel that it'snot about me anymore. It's
really not about me, it's notabout we, humans, it's about all
of us. And so think thatcommitment to service, that

(01:12:40):
commitment to being on the sideof light, recognizing that there
is a battle going on, that theforces of dark are active. And
like, I don't know, it's time torally the I hate to use a
military metaphor, but in a wayit is like that. It's like our
Juna and the Bhagavad Gita,which I know you know a ton

(01:13:03):
about Chad, it's like, that'sreally where we're at. So I'd
say commit, finding others whoare like minded like hearted and
organizing ourselves, and thenseeing what action arises from
that. And a lot of people aredoing that I think people are
mobilizing. And I agree that thepandemic, maybe we didn't like

(01:13:27):
leap forward into our newcivilization in the way I would
have liked. But it definitelylit a fire and so much was born
out of this time already.
Absolutely. And even my 10 yearold, just yesterday, she was
saying she's like, you know, Ithink one of the greatest gifts
of this pandemic has been thatit's forced a lot of people out

(01:13:51):
of their comfort zones.

Yeah. Yeah. And and to be evaluated to some
extent, I think, for a lot ofpeople. Yeah, you're right,
though. It's hard to turn. Well,what's the right metaphor? I was
gonna say it's hard to turn thegiant oil tanker around in two
years, but maybe it's hard. It'shard to turn the oil tanker into
a beautiful island. But, uh, butyeah, I think it's not like, it

(01:14:19):
wasn't all totally wasted. Imean, I think we, I think a lot
did happen, a lot of positivethings happen. So. So what
you're saying is, if I heard youcorrectly, is that we should,
you know, practice and you know,work on ourselves or whatever
that means. Stay connected, bein community and listen, and I

(01:14:42):
know maybe I'm putting somewords in your mouth. But yeah,
and then just see what therelevant action is at every
given moment. So it's, it's thisidea that comes from my yoga
training where a true yogi isonly ever taking spontaneous
right action and every momentthere's no sort of planning in a

(01:15:02):
sense, right? Is that whatyou're saying? Yeah, we call
that emergence. Yeah. That's theart of emergence.

Mm hmm. Exactly.

good segue. Yeah, so Okay, so do you want to talk
about? You wanna talk aboutthat? I mean, that's your that's
your website. That's what you'rethat's your big, offering your
world. And I'd love to hear moreabout that. And anything else
you're working on? I did seethat your one thing that caught
my eye was the your, like wetalked about, you're doing these

(01:15:33):
bond, doulas and over Navaratri,you did the nine goddesses in
modular form. And then you'reworking on possibly a book. So
maybe you could talk about that,too?

Yeah, I'm working on a book about the
mandalas...there are them some?
Yeah, about that process wedescribed of connecting to
nature and making offerings innature. So that's one project.
Another project is a poetrybook. So way back in the day, a
lot of the female tantrikpractitioners were poets. And

(01:16:09):
they wrote in something theycall I love this, the Sanskrit
word escapes me, but thetranslation is "Twilight
Language," which is sobeautiful. And so the idea is
that there's there are teachingsand transmissions in the poetry,
not explicitly, but like, like,in a twilight way, like, in a

(01:16:32):
hidden way, almost. And it'slike a sutra. But not, yeah,
yeah. And, but but somethingabout the poem form is slightly
different than the sutra. It'snot so intentionally trying to
teach, right? It's trying toimpart or give an experience.

Right? Well, poetry, my understanding of
poetry is that it's intended toconvey the ineffable through
language or something like that.

I love that. I love that. And David Whyte is
one of my favorites right now.
Gosh, the best. Boy, he is good.
So anyway, poetry book, so Igotten like, there were many
years where I was writing poems,but felt like who wants to read
poems, no one reads poems, and Ithink we're actually coming into
a time where people want to readpoems. So that's exciting. And

(01:17:25):
then I'm, I have a couple ofembodiment courses on offer. And
these are pulling from theTibetan Tantra, some hatha yoga.
And then just subtle body workand meditation, shamanic. It's
kind of a mix of many practicesthat I've been pulling together

(01:17:50):
over the last couple years intothis practice I call Coming
Home, which is just all aboutdescending coming down into the
body healing, integrating, andI'm feeling

Yeah, yeah. So it's embodied, but it's also
holistic,

right? It's very, yeah, it's holistic. It's
heart opening. It's intuitioninspiring. It's, it's, it's one
of them is about the magic body,which is the bliss body, which
is the subtle body. So honingand refining these yogic
practices, to well strengthenour subtle body so that we can

(01:18:31):
be more sensitive and be more intouch with the subtle realms and
the subtle aspects of life andthen feel that magic.

Yeah. Wow. That sounds amazing. And I'll just
just say for the listeners, thatin my experience, Skylar is a
beautiful teacher. Sodefinitely.

Thank you, Chad.
Likewise, I was just sittinghere thinking, wow, I should
really talk to you about thisbecause you have so many
beautiful, so many beautiful anddeep practices around the subtle
body. Yeah. Also.

Yeah, yeah.
I'm really grateful to havethese practices. Do you want to
talk more about what yourpersonal sadhana looks like
these days?

That's a good question. It's very, a lot of
meditation. Yeah. I spent many,many years doing a ton of Asana.
And now if I have 45 minutes,I'd rather sit for 45 minutes
then move. I mean, part of thatalso is a very active lifestyle
here on the farm. I'm walkingoutside a lot carrying firewood.

(01:19:33):
It's like, I get my exercise.
And I know Asana obviously ismore than that, but I've been
doing the Tibetan yogas. AndI've been doing a ton of
meditation and a lot of time innature. That's really the main
points.

The Tibetan yoga is that mantra-based or
what is the No it's

this nejong, or trukor there. They're these.
They're sort of, I mean, they'rereally beautiful practices, but
they're basically exercise.
They're opening the channels andmoving the winds through the
body. So you're getting you'recombining Breath and breath

(01:20:17):
retention with some prettyvigorous movement. Yeah, like a
lot of kriyas okay, really?

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. And, and so, bompachin, which is a lot of
rotations, and all of it isclearing the channels. So it
looks funny. That's what I washesitating to say. That all of
the quarantine when I had my my10 year old at home. Yeah, I was

(01:20:49):
doing a lot of these yogas andshe was just like, Oh, God, mom.

You're one of those mothers.

Oh, yeah. She was She won't go near yoga.
That's funny doing it too much.

Yeah, I would say the best practices are the
strangest looking, you know?
Right.

Right. That's very good rule of thumb.

Yeah, that's strange. That is probably great.
Okay, well, I think we'vecovered a lot of good ground
today. Yeah, yeah.

This has been really fun. Thank you so much.
Such a joy to talk to youanother yogi.

Yeah, I always enjoy our conversations. And
yeah, we define spirituality. Wewe solved the crisis of
humanity. Right. So Right. Ithink we're good.

I think we did a pretty good job. All in a day's
work.

All right.
Well, anything else you want tomention before we close? Huh?
Hmm.

I don't think so. I think this was just a
really nice comprehensiveconversation. And I guess if
there's anything, a lot of mythinking comes through my
writing. So the Medium posts area really good way to dig a
little deeper into anything thatI've said here.

yet. I really enjoy those. So I recommend them
very much. Yes. Okay. Well,thank you again, Schuyler. And
hari om.

Namaste.

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