Holistic Yoga, Ashrams & Gurus with Meghan Kemp

Episode Transcript
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Meghan Kemp (00:00):
This life is an opportunity to move beyond our
karma and move into a moredharmic state of living and
living life with great intentionand purpose and mastery, and to
essentially be of greaterservice and ease to all and this
is universal. And so to be ableto share this insight with other

(00:22):
people and to help them see lifefrom that broader context is
it's just a blessing. This isall an illusion. Okay, like hit
me in the face. Yeah.

Jayadev Woodford (00:40):
Welcome to spiritual but not ridiculous, a
podcast that explores the worldof spirituality. From a grounded
and clear eyed perspective. I'myour host, jayadev yoga teacher,
Vedic astrologer, Attorney, andtechnologists.
My guest this week is MeghanKemp, a dedicated student and

(01:03):
teacher of yoga, who isintegrating Eastern practices
into Western culture, which iswhy I was so excited to talk to
her. She's been practicing yogasince she was 14. And teaching
asana, meditation, breathwork,and kriya for the past five
years. Following a year ofliving, studying and teaching at
an ashram in northern India.
Meghan has returned to theStates to share these

(01:25):
transformational practices withall walks of life. She is also a
budding Vedic astrologer andoffers astrology readings as a
means to alleviate suffering andincrease joy. Our conversation
spanned a wide spectrum oftopics all orbiting around the
broad and rich practices ofyoga, from the elements that
make up a holistic yoga practiceto ashram life and the role of a

(01:45):
guru on the spiritual path tocults to the question of
enlightenment, and VedicAstrology. It was so great to do
this interview in person insteadof over zoom. So here's my
conversation with Meghan.

Chad Woodford (02:11):
So welcome, Meghan. I'm so happy that you're
my first guest on the podcast.

Thanks, Chad. I'm excited to be here.

Yeah, we we go back a little ways. We've known
each other for about four years.

Yeah, I guess 2017?

Yeah. And we're kind of we've been kind of
following the same path orsimilar path for that time. So
yeah, I met you four years agoin India at this yoga academy,
where I was taking a mantratraining with Kia Miller. And
you were there for a while...

Yeah, I was following Kia there, but I
wasn't there for that specifictraining.

Right. Yeah. You were there to just be that, like
there was a summit, a yogasummit happening. It was at
Sattva Yoga Academy.

Yeah. Yeah, I did that. Because it was the first
time they had done it. I had nocontext of what was going to
happen there. And I just saw theintro video, and it showed the
Himalayas and I said, I'm going.

Right, right.
Because you're a fan of like,the Himalayas basically.

Yeah, I'm into that, yeah.

Yeah. It's beautiful out there. Yeah. I
think for people like us, it'sbeen, you know, hard not to go
to India, or to be able to go toIndia during this time. But at
the same time, that's obviouslysuch a privileged problem to
have, and people are reallysuffering. And so it's been
heartbreaking to see thesuffering in India.

Yeah, definitely, especially in those more rural
communities without as muchaccess to resources, but also
cool to see how people are ableto support from afar and how
we're still able to be held byIndia, and hopefully hold India
in our hearts as well.

Yeah. So great.
So many people we know, in ourcommunity have been putting up
these fundraisers, and reallyall of us have been doing
different things to give back tothe community and to India as a
whole. So maybe I'll link tosome of that stuff in the show
notes or something. I wanted tohave you on because I wanted to
talk about yoga, and some of theexperiences we've had, and maybe

(04:04):
some of the challenges that comewith the spiritual path. And
also, because the theme of thispodcast, as you know, is to try
to find the veins of gold withinwhat can seem like, you know, a
lot of spiritual ego or, youknow, commercialization or

(04:26):
whatever it is, like, corruptionof spirituality, you know, so
that's the kind of the theme ofevery episode. And so that's
part of it, part of theconversation we're gonna have
today...

Right?

Yeah. So yeah, so we both have studied the same
style of yoga. We both have hadsimilar experiences, living in
kind of an ashram setting andyeah, studying with people in
India and all that so excited toget into that topic.

Yeah, me too.

So I wanted to start with a question about the
spiritual path. There's thesetwo quotes that I have that kind
of tee up what seems like adichotomy. So one quote was from
Swami Rama, a book that we bothread. And he says, the path of

(05:17):
enlightenment is the toughestpath. And that seeking is the
hardest task. So that's oneperspective. And then Elizabeth
Lesser, the founder of OmegaInstitute, she says, the
spiritual path teaches us how tofloat on our backs, relaxed and
aware in the waters of reality.
So it's like two differentperspectives.

Very polarizing!

And, you know, I mean, I've definitely felt
personally, that it is a hardpath, because it, you know, for
one reason, and I'm curious tohear your thoughts, like, you're
maybe more alienated from otherpeople, or you're just, like,
feeling different from society,let's say, I don't know, what's
your perspective?

Yeah, it's funny.
At this stage, I feel moreconnected to humanity than I've
ever felt, and also moreisolated from humanity than
ever, it gives you this accessto your heart space, and seeing
how we're all on a spiritualpath, regardless if we're
tapping into certain practicesor resources. And then as we

(06:15):
start to dive into that path,you uncover so much of yourself,
and what you want to create foryour life. And in that process,
there's a lot of letting go ofthat which isn't aligned with
the path or not in line withyour highest intentions.

Yeah, it takes a lot of courage or a lot of
willingness to be sort ofindependent and break away from
conditioned society orconditioned expectations about
how you should live your life.

Yeah, definitely.
But I think it's beautiful tosee over time how people
understand that that's the pathyou're on. And they, I now get a
call from my mom. And she'slike, Where in the world? Are
you? Like, great, this is a hugeleap from where it was when I
first decided to go travelingand be nomadic. And her wanting
to know what my every step andmove and it's, it's freeing and

(07:11):
a lot of ways, but it is alsoyeah, it requires a sort of grit
and, and determination to be onthe path. But I think once you
start to sip in that awareness,it's really hard to let go, you
start to lift the veil.

Yeah. And I think in terms of the difficulty, in
my experience, there's kind of adance, right? You there's
aspects that are challenging.
And of course, there's thisconcept in yoga that I'm sure a
lot of listeners are familiarwith, which is tapaha, you know,
you're intentionally doingsomething hard, or, you know,
committing to some, you know,discipline over a set period of

(07:51):
time in order to achieve somespiritual benefit, or you know,
some punya, or whatever you wantto call it. And so there's this
kind of push and pull whereyou're doing these practices
that are hard or you're doingyou're on a path that's
difficult in some cases, butthen hopefully, you get some
benefits. So you experience thebenefits of that of doing that.
Yeah. And so that's, likeself-reinforcing. So there's

(08:12):
like a nice feedback cycle,hopefully.

Definitely. Yeah.
And I think it's fair to saythat people will step away from
the path because it ischallenging, and then come back
to it over time. And generally,people are propelled onto it
when something life changingwhen the when the rug is pulled
out from beneath them, and theythen have to look at aspects of
their life that they might nothave been engaging with before.
Yeah. So it's an invitationalways open door. But yeah,

(08:37):
there's some of us that when weopen that door, a lot of us
can't close it going and going.

Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting what you say
about, like, what might draw youto the path or like, so often
it's be having something like,quote unquote, go wrong in your
life or something that quoteunquote, bad happened, you know,
that's usually when you're moreopen to maybe going on the path.
And yeah, so that's such a greatreminder that the way grace

(09:09):
operates is through theseseemingly sort of like bed, you
know, yeah, dance or whatever.
Okay. Well, does that answer thequestion? Is it hard? Or is it
easy?

It's a little bit of it's a little bit of both. I
think, you know, at this stage,I can't imagine my life without
meditation without a dailypractice. But a few years back,
it would be really hard for meto think, how am I going to
meditate every day for the restof my life. And I don't plan in
that same context. I don't thinkabout what I'm doing today has

(09:46):
to happen every single day. It'sjust becomes such a foundational
principle of my life that mylife organizes around it, and in
that more blossoms from him, andwhenever those lessons present
themselves, there's Theseresources and tools that we've
gained through the path arethree practices to fall back on.
So life still happens life sohard regardless, but at least

(10:11):
this gives you some parametersto sort through it.

Yeah. And I think maybe the ease part of the ease
that Elizabeth Lesser's talkingabout is like your approach, if
you are not trying to controleverything, and you're not
having any expectations, thatmaybe it's a little easier, and
you can kind of eventually orquickly get to a point where
you're like, floating in somesense. Yeah, you know, and
you're like, you're sayingyou're kind of you build a
foundation of practices that dothat do then like, sort of pave

(10:38):
the road a little bit, I think,but then still, there's going to
be there's going to befluctuation where you like
backslide, or, you know, twosteps forward, one step back.

No, we never go back.

There's no going, you know, like this fluctuation,
like my friend, good friend ofmine says, "fluctuation
happens." And yeah, it's just afact of the path. And you have
to I think you have to be verygood to go easy on yourself and
have a lot of compassion. Yeah.
And not be so serious. Yeah.

Or ridiculous.

So yeah, okay.
Well, I think we answered thatquestion. Yeah. Great. So yeah,
so I wanted to talk more broadlyabout yoga too, because, for me
recently, this summer,especially in the past few
months, as we've talked about,before we started taping, I've
been going through this process,where some of the practices that
I've been doing for years havebeen falling away in my personal

(11:30):
practice, and then I've maybeadopted other practices or like,
it's like my view of yoga hasbroadened, or my view of the
spiritual paths broadened,beyond maybe even like, maybe
it's not just yoga for me, youknow, that's what I'm kind of
thinking about these days. Andso I wanted to talk about like,
sort of what is yoga? Where doesit fit in with the broader,
like, spiritual path? If youknow, you want to if you want to

(11:52):
embark on a spiritual path, youknow, what is yoga part of that?
how can how can I fit into allthat? What else can you do? But
so I wanted to start thediscussion with talking about
what yoga is, because I feellike it's kind of important
these days, especially to kindof define it or to like, talk
about it in a more expansiveway. Yes. So many people still,

(12:13):
I think, think of yoga as thepostures where you're just
stretching, which is great.
Asana is amazing, and veryimportant. But there's so much
more to it. So I mean, this iskind of a big question about
like, how do you define yoga?
Somebody? Like you, somebody youdidn't know, ask you? Yeah,
what's yoga? You know, you teachyoga?

Yeah. Great question. So I think about my
experience in this way, Istarted yoga, at a young age,
doing asanas or the postures, mysoul was really drawn to it. For
the purpose of savasana. Really,it was the allure of that
resting peacefulness thathappened at the end of the

(12:54):
postures. And that experiencekept me curious, it had me
searching or seeking out moreand looking to discover more of
what was happening beneath thesurface there, that experience
was yoga that that was the unitybetween the mind the body, the

(13:15):
moment the breath, like all ofit coming together and not
feeling any sort of disconnect,or dis ease that there's just
this being and, and there's somany ways to access that space,
and to then broaden theexperience of that space. And so
yoga from a wider lens includespractices, studies, texts, all

(13:44):
of the above. Meditation, youknow, there's so many systems to
help us organize ourselves inorder to experience that unity
consciousness or cosmicconsciousness and see how it's
all interconnected. Yoga,meaning to unite, or to yoke to
unify all into one. And yeah, soI, I think that it's amazing

(14:11):
that so many people arepracticing assets right now,
because we have to prepare thebody to then hold the posture,
we can sit and stillness andaccess those places of
transcendence through practiceslike meditation or breath, work,
breath work and meditationconcentration, and then we open
up the veil and can see hownature is.

Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful answer. Hey, yeah, so
yoga is it's a practice. Well,one of our teachers would say
it's a state, a practice, and anexperience. But it's a practice
for helping you to have thedirect experience of unity. Yes.
unity with what are between whatand what?

Well, what I would call God now, I was never
someone who use the G word but Ilove to think of it as the
generator, organizer anddestroyer, God and universe,
nature, whatever it is, it'ssomething that's much larger
than this experience of my ownconsciousness. So it's the
consciousness of all collectiveconsciousness and the cosmic

(15:18):
consciousness, the, the innerwoven space that we exist in in
time that we exist in and seeingour role in it from a way wider
lens, wider bandwidth.

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's really, I mean, I
think one thing that peopledon't realize, and that's why I
think, like you were saying aminute ago, especially like
asana, and even power yoga, orwhatever, is important, because
it's such a nice, approachablesort of gateway, you know,
practice where people just comeinto, and it's simple and
accessible. And you're, you feellike you're working out and

(15:53):
you're working out and yeah, solike, I mean, I'm sure for you
like, for me, I started off withBikram, and I thought it was the
best thing ever.

I started with Bikram too!

It's so important, I think in every so
every style of yoga is good,because if you stick with it, it
will lead you closer, closer tolike the truth, whatever that
is. But yeah, you know, it'slike a progression. So you can't
really realistically, like dumppeople into the deep end, right
off the bat. Like I think about,we'll get into this later, I'm
sure. But like, you know,eventually the experiences that

(16:23):
you and I were having in India,if you just did that, like right
away, you'd be like, this isweird. Crazy, right? So it's
like, you can't it's almost likeyou can't tell people like
everything right away. But yeah,so you can say, you know, at the
beginning, you can say, Oh, it'sa unity between your body and
mind. Are you right between youand like, you start to throw in
like totality or these otherwords, but yeah, ultimately,

(16:45):
it's unity that you canexperience the unity between
your small self and your higherself, or, yeah, between Atman
and Brahman or whatever. Yeah.
So. So yeah. It's amazing,because I think I had the same
experience you had my first realtaste of unity or transcendence
was intro asana in a vinyasaclass in San Francisco. At Toga

(17:10):
Tree, which is I think closednow. Yeah. And yeah. And I just
wanted more of that. And so thatwas kind of what pushed me into
a teacher training. I justwanted the I wanted to find that
experience more consistently.
And so what's beautiful aboutthe more like energetic
practices like kriya, orpranayama, or those things, is

(17:31):
that they give you that directexperience more consistently, in
my experience, right?

Unknown (17:36):
And rapidly too.
rapidly.

And rapidly, yeah. Not that there's any
hurry.

No, no. Many lifetimes.

I mean, it's something I do want to talk
about, too, is. Yeah, like thepurpose of practicing when
you're already perfect. Yeah,but maybe we can come back to
that. But you know, so asana isimportant in the beginning,
right?

Asana is important, in my perspective, where I'm
sitting right now, always is andit doesn't have to be like a sun
salutation. As far as asanagoes, or 100 of them. I think
the connection of yourself toyour body is so vital for an
integrated being and anintegrated experience of yoga. I

(18:23):
come from a background where Iwas initially drawn to alignment
and wanting to discover more andtruth through alignment. And
over time, I've definitelydropped that. Like, I think
alignment is a great tool forteaching. But it's easy to get
caught in that because it's alevel of perfectionism. But

(18:43):
point aside...

But it's important to have, well also to
have a knowledge at least havelike some some boundaries or
some like guidelines for notinjuring yourself. So
definitely, you should at leastknow enough to not do certain
things where you're going tojeopardize your knee or ankle or
what have you.

Definitely, yeah, but I think that often it
strengthens your core your spineas well. So it allows there to
be a transference of energy andthe more subtle means of your
body, which then gives youaccess to those spaces with
greater ease and longevity.
Because if you're in pain seatedin meditation for 20 minutes,
it's going to be quitedistracting. But asanas are

(19:21):
wonderful for alleviating thatpain and strain and helping your
body with longevity too.

Yeah, absolutely.
And I you know, and for me, ifyou're gonna approach yoga from
an elemental standpoint, orthinking about the importance of
grounding, you know, in theearth element, you know, the
style I teach is very muchoriented around elements. And I
think yoga itself, since ancienttimes has been organized around
the elements to some degree andyeah, so it's important to asana

(19:50):
is giving you this groundingthis like, you're going you're
being, you're bringing yourawareness more into your body.
You know, I think Iyengar saidthat you should bring your
awareness to every cell of yourbody when you're doing a pose or
something.

There's a lot in that question was, what else?
Are we not touching on yet?

In terms of what yoga is? Yeah. Let's take the
discussion maybe a little bitbroader beyond even like
physical practices, because yogacan be so much more than that.
Right? So there's like bhaktiyoga. There's jñāna yoga, which
is sort of more of that wisdomand tracking the intellect and
all that. And what else KarmaYoga? Right. Also Raja, which

(20:28):
includes meditation? Yeah, we'retalking about the yoga is there
any greater than the BhagavadGita? Right? Yes. So yeah, so
bhakti yoga, I think most peopleknow about, at least with know
about the Hare Krishnas, sothere's like, kind of devotional
style, but it's so much morethan just Hare Krishna?

Yeah, definitely.
It's a, it's a real greatpathway to the heart, and using
the heart as leverage to thosespaces of transcendence.

Absolutely. I think. I'm curious to hear what
you think. I mean, I feel likemost people are a lot of people
when you say devotion, it makesme be turns them off even I
don't know, like, it sounds. Tome, it might sound a little bit
of somebody who maybe comes fromChristianity or something. Yeah.
Well, it's like, it might sounda little bit like religion or, I
don't know, loss of control, or,you know, like, how do you think

(21:17):
about devotion?

Yeah, great question. Because I did not
understand that word. When Ifirst started to, like, do these
practices that we've explored,it brings when, when the benefit
was it brings you into adevotional space? I was like,
What do you mean? Like, I don'tunderstand what I'm being
devoted to.

But I like well, a good example like is, this is
a small example. But I feel likea lot of people I've noticed
when they go to a class, andthere's a sort of tradition,
even in a yoga studio, and youknow, New York, there's a
tradition where at the end ofthe class, everyone bows, the
practice, and some people arelike, wait a minute, everyone's
bowing to the teacher, like,what is this a call? You know,

(21:57):
like, yeah, that kind of stuff Ithink people get confused
about...

Totally, yeah. But I think when you start to
experience nature, nature, to mehas been the conduit to what
devotion is, and being out andimmerse in nature and natural
elements. It brings alive themystery of life and that
perspective. And you start tosee the organization at play of

(22:23):
what had to come into fruitionto be here in this moment and
take it all in. And through thatawareness, then I had something
to vow towards and to begrateful for that. So much had
to align that was out of mywherewithal and knowledge and
yeah, and, and that's where,like, the god word comes into

(22:44):
play. But it, it is, it'stricky, because there's been
such conditioning in the societyaround what God is, or the
imagery around it.

Like it's like, like Pete Holmes says, like,
he's the Burger King in the skyor whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I
think devotion, I think in thebeginning, you can kind of say
that it's just devotion toyourself, or to your higher
self. And then you can say it'sdevotion to something higher
than that, you know, maybetotality or God or whatever, the
divine The Goddess. But I thinkit is also one other way to look

(23:18):
at it as it's like, a way ofjust opening yourself
spiritually or like, likecultivating receptivity within
yourself. And there's also anelement, would you say, there's
also an element of surrender todevotion? Is that part of it? Or
is that different?

Definitely, definitely connected. Because I
think when we have all thesepoints of resistance come up
around a word like devotion, orGod or religion, there is a
gripping to an identity that'sassociated with that knowledge.
And so to be able to surrenderthe belief system or structures
that we've been taught, and beopen to something else, or be

(23:56):
open to just uncovering what itis within us that has us asking
these questions. Who am I? Whatis this all about? What's the
purpose of all? Yes? Yeah, fromthere, I can start to get into
that heart space.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So. So
that's bhakti yoga, that'sdevotional yoga, karma yoga
course you can be of selflessservice in the world. It's a
different ways. That's anotherform of yoga. And then yeah,
jñāna yoga. I think we'll talkabout that more probably, as we
get into talking about spiritualbypass and gurus and all that

(24:29):
stuff. Well, yeah, there's somuch more to yoga than just
asana.

They're really a loaded question.

But something I've been thinking about because
I've noticed with myself, I gothrough these these cycles
where, because I feel like I'vebeen toying with this idea over
the past few years that life islike a spiral. So for me, at
least in my experience, like itfeels like the way life operates
is that you kind of come aroundthrough an experience or like a
practice or belief and then youkind of go around like the

(25:00):
spiral maybe away from it alittle bit, and then back to it
in a deeper way. It's been myexperience anyway. So like I
personally, I had these cycleswhere I'm practicing really
diligently and a lot, like everyday, twice a day or whatever,
you know, different yogapractices. And then I'll have
periods where I'm sort of takinga break from it, and reorienting

(25:22):
myself and kind of examiningfrom the outside and all these
things. So it's something that Ithink about a lot like, what is
yoga? And if I'm taking a quote,unquote, break from yoga, is
that really a break from yoga?
Or am I just not doing maybeasana or kriya, but I'm doing
jñāna yoga, or karma yoga orbhakti yoga or whatever, right?
So maybe at some point, the I'msure everyone's heard the
cliche, everything's yoga, youknow. And so at some point,

(25:45):
maybe like, your approach tothings can be yogic, and
whatever you do, can have thesort of the community views with
a certain kind of yoga, youknow, viewpoint?

Yeah. Because how it'd be difficult to say that
you're not practicing when youhave so much experience with the
practice that has shifted youinto the person you are today,
and the way that you engage withlife. And so I think once the
yogi always a yogi or somethinglike that, depending on you'd

(26:18):
like that identity.

Yeah. Well, I like what you're saying, because
it makes me think of jñāna yoga,which is this, correcting the
intellect wisdom, what you'resaying reminds me about the
experiences I've had, especiallyin satsangs in India, with our
teacher or other teachers, whereI'll be sitting there just
hearing talk by a teacher, andI'll feel my consciousness

(26:42):
expanding just from that talk.
And so, so what you're sayingreminds me of that experience,
where I feel like I leave thattalk or leave that experience
with a permanently alteredconsciousness. And so then in
all my, in my, in my life, afterthat, I'm sort of applying that
increased wisdom or thatdifferent orientation and
everything, hopefully. And so Ithink, for me, like especially

(27:06):
the past three or four years,this jñāna yoga has been maybe
the most important practice in acertain sense, because it ties
directly back to the theme ofthis podcast in a way because,
you know, I'm very muchconcerned with spiritual bypass,
spiritual ego, spiritualmaterialism, and, you know, the

(27:26):
over commercialization of ofyoga and all that. And I think I
think that the, the mosteffective solution to all those
things is jñāna yoga, or like,you know, going to wisdom talks
or reading yoga scriptures, orwhatever it is. And so yeah, so
I think I'm curious to hear yourthoughts like, have you had that

(27:47):
experience with satsangs, Ishould say satsangs are just
like a talk where there's ateacher talking, basically,
sometimes it's a lecture orsometimes it's a q&a, but a
Dharma talk is another name forsatsang that's more common in
the West. So anyways, yeah, haveyou had that experience with
wisdom talks?

Yes, I have had that experience. But I will say
that I think it's really uniqueto you and your path as well.
And that there's so manydifferent paths. So you kind of
circle back to what we had toaddress. And it makes so much
sense that you are puttingenergy into this work and into
enlivening your consciousness,and then sharing it through the

(28:28):
same ways that you've feltyou've learned the most, and by
talking and, and discussing andreading, and that has definitely
been relevant for me. And I've,but I've felt that through what
we call journeys, I have myconsciousness expanded, like,

(28:50):
Yeah, but but ultimately, duringthose journeys, there is a
restructuring of the frameworkof ideas and like, what, how to
approach life and how to engagein it in those moments. So it's,
it's all part of a biggerpicture. So I think that yes,
there there needs to be some wayfor people to access different

(29:15):
perspectives in order for themto widen their consciousness or
broaden

Yeah. And I think maybe talking about a satsang as
separate from a journey or aclass or whatever, is a little
bit of an artificialdistinction. Because so often in
a good class, hopefully theteacher is dropping in little
bits of wisdom. I mean, some ofthe best classes from my
favorite teachers have beenthose teachers, right. There's
like wisdom coming in, like asyou're doing awesome, or

(29:42):
whatever you're doing, right.
So, so yeah, it's a continuumtoo. And yeah, but you're right.
And it's funny because I, I'vealways been such a sort of
reader and an intellectual andyou know, very much in my head.
And so when I first encounteredyoga and I found out about jñāna
yoga, I was like, I shouldn't dothat, because I feel like it's
feeding this like, oversizedtendency of mine to be in my

(30:04):
head. And I should just do Ishould be more than the body
practices, you know. But you'reright, though. I mean, it's a
it's a sort of natural aptitudeor it's a natural tendency I
have, and I enjoy it. So whynot? There's no reason to
resist. But yeah, it's soimportant. I feel, um, sometimes
to directly correct people'slike, conditioned thinking or

(30:25):
misperception of reality, youknow...

They have to be open to that, to have honest
inquiry.

Yeah. And so it feels like such a, like, I feel
like such a refined kind ofelevated, almost inaccessible
thing, experience for people tohave, because at least you know,
the way I've encountered it, forthe most part has been, yeah,
having to travel to India, findsome teacher, you know, like,
not everybody's gonna haveaccess to that experience.

However, if you look at this past year, right,
how many people who would havenever gone to India were able to
take courses drew from theirhome? And I mean, we have all of
these resources online? Yes.
There's almost like, so manyoptions. And how do you discern,
I think that's a big, big thingto be mindful of as you go
deeper into these practices isthe discernment qualities and

(31:13):
factors. And but then there'sthis thread of truth through it
all. And you go from one schoolto another, and you're like, oh,
they've just applied similarwords, or slightly different
words to the same structurefoundation. But yeah, it's, it
takes worthy inquiry. And thenwhen you have that, you'll get

(31:36):
the answers. You'll be guidednaturally.

Yeah, that's right. The challenge for people
who are offering wisdom talks orDharma talks, I think sometimes
is that other people who may beinterested in those things are

(32:03):
turned off by the fact that theydon't fit the kind of old, you
know, sage on a mountaintop,archetype. So there's a little
bit of a resistance sometimes tothat.

Yeah. And I think that's where if you're looking
for someone to learn from it,there's so many different types
of teachers out there, and ittakes trying them on, and seeing
which ones do resonate with you,and accepting what does feel
like truth to you, and thenleaving the rest. And perhaps

(32:37):
you find that teacher, whatwhatever body suit they are
wearing, can be a conduit forthat information. Some of my
wisest friends, or like peoplein my life are like, way younger
than me, and have such aprofound like intuition. And,

(32:57):
and so yeah, I think it does, itdoes require allowing that
conditioned expectation to goand to drop and to be open to
receiving wisdom from all thetraditions and different
teachers.

So how do you—let me ask you this? How do you find
a teacher that's right for you?
How do you find your like yourteacher, if that's the thing
you're looking for?

For me? Personally, I and I can't speak on behalf of
everybody. But for me, I justkept going to my favorite
teachers from an Asanaperspective, I loved how one
teacher sequence that wasunique, it was different. said,
Who's your teacher? Then I wentto their I did a retreat with
her teacher. And then I said,Okay, well, who is your teacher,

(33:41):
and then went to the next. Thenfrom that, I think the fourth
stage of it was what brought meto India. And now I'm in a
position where I feel like Ihave access to someone who has
great wisdom, and I can impartthat and and learn it, live it,

(34:01):
and then start to teach it aswell as I embody it.

So you have to go to India to find a teacher?

But I think that you can find teachers wherever
but you, you know what soundstrue to you and what doesn't?
And that's what ignite... or forme, at least I felt that these
people ignited something in meand I wanted to understand more.

Yeah, I think but I think you're highlighting what
can be a little bit of like acatch 22 or like a chicken and
egg problem on the path becauseto identify a sadhguru, like a
true teacher, you needdiscernment on some level. Yeah,
to be able to like separate thewheat from the chaff. And that's
something that you develop byhaving a teacher so it's a

(34:45):
little bit of like, you have tohave a little bit and then you
get more from the teacher andthen it's really good, then it's
like an ever increasing processfrom there.

Yeah, definitely.
And, I mean, we talked aboutthis in the Guru... or we read
about this in The Guru Question,a book that we both read. And
you can see the community that ateacher has. And if you like
what you're seeing in thatcommunity, then it's generally a
good indication that thatteachers aligned with you.

Hmm, yeah, that's a good one. I'm all of a sudden
thinking about Ram Dass'sexperience meeting his teacher,
which is totally unique. Youknow, the story? Yeah. Yeah.
It's such a great story. Yeah. Imean, I'll tell it, maybe won't
use it. I don't know. But it'ssuch a great story. Because he

(35:34):
goes, I mean, he found basicallywas all wrapped up. I mean, I'm
sure everyone knows this story.
But what Ram Das did is he metBhagavan Das, who was whose name
I forget his like American name,I forget. But from Laguna Beach,
California, he was in India. Andhe seemed to have some things
special. And this is where anexample of Ram Dass is using his
sort of intuition and his likediscernment maybe to identify

(35:55):
Bhagavan Das is somebody whomaybe has some knowledge and
wisdom. And then you followedhim to this ashram in the
mountains, where Neem KaroliBaba was the guru. And at the
time, Ram Dass was still RichardAlpert, and he was still very
much in his identity, like as aHarvard professor and
psychologist of skepticism andeverything is, you know, I don't

(36:20):
know about this. I don't knowabout that. And even though he
was in India, and he was sort ofpartially surrendering to
Bhagavan Das, he goes to thisthing and everybody is dressed,
you know, dressed in white, andthey're all sort of bowing to
Neem Karoli Baba and he's like,No, this is not for me at all.
touching his feet, she does feelguilty or whatever. But then, a
few months earlier, Ram Dass,his mother had died. And he

(36:42):
hadn't told anybody about thatvery much about that experience,
especially Bhagavan Das oranybody in India. And then he
had this really beautifulexperience where he was out one
night before they met the Baba,he was out under the stars and,
and he was just really feelingconnected to everything and
thinking about his mother forthe first time in a deep way

(37:02):
since she died. And so he goes,and I think Neem Karoli Baba
really saw. I mean, you know,the story you can jump into?

Yeah, yeah, the following day. I think Ram Dass
was going to leave or something.
And he, he was pulled intotalking to Neem Karoli Baba, and
he asked if he had seen hismother the night before. He was
thinking about his mother.

He said something like, "You were thinking about
your mother last night."

Right? Right. And she died of like kidney.

Right. He knew how she died. Yeah.

And he just lost it. "Whatever this man is doing.
I'm in."

Yeah, that's a pretty unique experience. Yeah,
but yeah. Yeah, I mean, like,well, maybe we should go back a
little bit for so I mean, do youthink you need does a person on
a spiritual path need a guru orlike a?

Well, we all have the answers within,

Cuz you hear these stories, like, you know,
Ramana Maharshi, didn't have ateacher or Sadhguru, you know,
is famous because he doesn't henever had a teacher or lineage.
He just is self-taught, youknow? And I think a lot I think
a lot of people like that.
Because it I think the downside,people's minds about having a
guru or especially a lineage isthat there's such a high risk

(38:20):
that it could, you could findout, there's like some scandal
or something. humaneness andthen the whole thing gets taken
down or whatever. And so ifthere's no teacher, then like,
oh, you're there's no risk ofthis, you know, let's call it
having a call or being you know,tricked or duped or whatever.
Right? So, so yes, you do need ateacher?

It's all a process of remembering what's true.
Technically, no, you don't, somepeople don't. And, but you can
get further along in your path.
If you have the sage wisdom ofsomeone that is a teacher. I
mean, if you think about anyprofession, any scholars like
schooling, we all have,essentially, people that help us

(39:08):
see our potential greater thanwe could see within ourself, and
push us in that direction andnot just forward faster than we
would because we oftentimes havefear or resistance to that
capacity within us. So having ateacher, a spiritual teacher,
gives us those little nudgesforward on the path, can call

(39:30):
out the things that we'restruggling with, with greater
ease. They give us that, thatperspective, that is sometimes
hard to see for ourselves if wedon't have these tools embedded
already. Absolutely.

Yeah, I think there's a guru principle there's
a sort of a teacher principle, Ithink running all through
nature. You could say that—Ithink that's actually a line
from the Guru Gita. If you'veread that, but um, but yeah,
there's this guru principle andI think teachers Just embodying
that principle. And I think it'sso essential, especially for

(40:04):
people in the modern world whodon't have much self awareness,
to have somebody who can servethat role of maybe helping them
to break out of their ego alittle bit, or to loosen up some
of their attachments a littlebit. And to help them to see
more clearly, the places wherethey're not aware, or they're
like, yeah, they're selfsabotaging or whatever. And I

(40:24):
think there's a real benefit tothat. And yeah, I personally
have benefited immensely fromhaving a teacher and to going
through the traditional kind ofsurrender to a teacher process
and see where that leads,that's, it's been very
beneficial to me how, you know,I think it did help me to, to

(40:46):
learn to surrender more and to,like, get out of my own way, a
little a lot. And like I wassaying before, the huge benefit
was, I mean, learning practices,advanced practices, but also,
just being in these talks wherea lot of my misconceptions about
reality or about myself or aboutnature, were being directed by
this teacher, and it wassomebody who had demonstrated, I

(41:09):
mean, I discovered this oneteacher, because he had come to
a training I was in and given atalk. And I could just see, I
could just hear that he wasspeaking truth. And everything
he was saying resonated with me.
And it just seemed to have suchdeep wisdom. And he's very
knowledgeable and very wise. Andso there was a certain level of
trust that I was able to givebecause of that experience, and

(41:30):
then deepening that trust anddeepening the sort of trust in
Him to be my teacher for youknow, for a period anyways, was
was hugely transformational forme.

Do you have one shining example of that?

Yeah. So now you're the podcast host?

Yeah, I told you this was gonna happen. I love
it.

Yeah, I'll say there was a real benefit to the
experience of living incommunity in India, in kind of
an ashram setting, where therewere a number of ways in which I
had to get over myself, likeliving in a tiny room that was
cold and didn't have any heatand was kind of depressing, you
know, there was a benefit, Ithink, to having the experience
and then getting over it. Andmoving past it, you know, and

(42:18):
especially coming from the westwhere I had a, you know, a good
career, and I was living in niceplaces. That, yeah, it's a real
ego trip to be in a space whereyou're, it feels like you're
starting over, you know, andjust trust them to that process.
And that was gonna leadsomewhere. And that was an
example where I did actuallykind of freak out. And I was, I

(42:39):
was actually planning to escapeto a five star hotel in Delhi,
and never go back. And, youknow, I had a talk with and on,
and he helped me to see and putlike, a different perspective on
it, and to remember why I wasthere, and the benefits I was
getting and all that, you know,so that's one example, you know,

(42:59):
sort of entering into severe egotrip, and then having it having
almost like the, it's like,almost like the ego trip is like
this boil. And then yourteachers like lancing the boil,
and it's like, You're healed?
Yeah, what about you have youhad a specific experience that

(43:20):
you want to share?

I was told to be mindful of the secret complaints
with my heart. So nice. And tome, that felt like I was being
seen, this is also through anand in a way that I don't even
see myself. Like, when it wasbrought to light, I could then
see, oh, that's where I havework to do. And then within that

(43:47):
conversation, I asked Well, howhow do I how do I manage these
secret complaints that haveapparently been with me forever?
Because I'm feels true. And theanswer with devotion and
devotional practices to cut tomy heart, and to I major
takeaway was to not get caughtup in the smallness of things,

(44:08):
addictive behaviors ortendencies, fears, attachment to
a life that did have a lot ofsuffering within it, to be able
to be grateful for thoseexperiences, and then to move
forward with differentprioritizations such as having

(44:30):
devotional acts as a dailypractice for me.

Yeah, yeah.
Thinking of another examplewhere I was living in community
in India at the Academy. And Ihad an experience where I felt
very much like somebody neededto apologize to me. And I went
to actually went to our teacherand I said, "When is it
appropriate to expect an apologyfrom somebody?" He said,
"Never!" Yeah, that's true.

(44:58):
Though, yeah, simple examplethis stuff like that, you know
where you're just like, goingaround with this, it's like the
teacher is helping you to stopplaying around with this small
idea of yourself and to be abigger idea of yourself a more
elevated idea, more of a naturalleader type, somebody who's not

(45:19):
trapped in what you could calllike sub personalities, like The
Wounded Child, or The Victim, orThe Escapist, or all these
things that you need these waysthat you have a protecting your
ego, basically, especially whenyou're your child, that are
still lingering as your as youbecome an adult, I think the
teacher can help you to becomeaware of those defense
mechanisms, and then to finddifferent ways to move through

(45:42):
them.

Definitely. Yeah, and I also have thought of one
other great example too, on amore like gross level of just
being pushed into uncomfortablelike, situations or teachings,
you know, of being prompted todo things that I would never ask
in terms of like a teachertraining, and, okay, now you're

(46:04):
going to go teach a class in 10minutes, completely off the cuff
for students who have beenpracticing for years because
they're there for a training. Soyou go teach them now? In 10
minutes, yeah, I've had thatexperience. And you're just
like, me? Yeah, wait, what? Andso you have to just drop
everything that you think youneed to do for me, it's a lot of
planning and, you know, gettingthe playlist getting the

(46:26):
sequence all of that and be ableto just learn to be in that
moment, even more and yeah, it'sjust, it's, it's great. When,
when you have people in yourlife like teachers to propel you
forward.

Yeah. To see your potential, your potential...

Yes, to be able to see Yeah, you know, way wider
way than before.

Yeah, yeah. When I showed up, one year, when I
showed up at the Academy, I wasthere for a certain purpose. And
then the day I arrived, Anandsaid, actually, you're going to
be teaching, you're gonna betraining the teachers in the
training instead. And I waslike, Oh, and I didn't ever
think of myself as having that,like, I'd been at that point. I
had been teaching for years andhad already done multiple

(47:08):
trainings. So I definitely hadI've done probably like five
trainings at that point. But Ihad never thought of myself as
like, qualified, you know, andhe saw that potential. And I
think, you know, hopefully hewas, I think he was right, but
who knows? Yeah, but that kepthappening. And he kept expecting
more and more of me. And I, hekept pushing me into areas of
discomfort that really helped megrow as a result.

Yeah. And I think it's great to have a teacher
that does that. And that you canalso, at some point, understand
that it was done in love, yes,that that that push wasn't done
to make you uncomfortable in anegative way, it was done to
help you get past that oldversion of yourself.

So this brings us to a discussion around gurus and
the imperfection of humanbeings, and how to grapple with
maybe like some disappointmentsaround a teacher, or that kind
of thing. Kind of separating thehuman being from the teachings.
And, and that, you know, I thinksome people may be in a

(48:11):
situation where there's ateacher who does have wisdom and
is imparting important practicesand knowledge, but then is too
much in his ego or her you goand then manipulating students,
you know, and saying that I'mactually breaking down your ego,
when they're what they'reactually doing is manipulating
them or doing somethingunhealthy, right? We've seen
that in so many cultdocumentaries, you know, that

(48:34):
kind of behavior with whether itwas you know, Osho, and all that
and Wild, Wild West or Country?
Yeah. But yeah, so many examplesof that, where it, it can be
tricky, I guess, because so muchof what amounts to unhealthy
manipulation, can be packagedlike, Oh, I'm just helping you
break down your ego, totallythinking of like the NXIVM cult

(48:55):
to that was like so much of whatKeith Raniere was doing in that.
So anyways, I'm just curious ifyou have thoughts about the
humaneness of a teacher, youknow, because I think we've all
experienced teachers who seemamazing and perfect. And then at
some point, there's adisappointment. And I think,
actually, my Mariana Caplan, inher book Guru Question, talks
about this natural cycle ofprojection on the teacher,

(49:18):
idealization of the teacher, andthen disillusionment of the
teacher. So I think it's likeactually a natural part of the
experience maybe. So I don'tknow it would give you
thought...

Yeah. I mean, what pops into my mind immediately,
is the expectations I put ontomy mother, and having that as
the framework for who Iinitially learn from and learn
life through. And, and thenseeing how over time, she's,
there's a moment I think, as yougrow up, and you become an

(49:50):
adult, that you just realizethat your parents are human
beings, they're just adults whoare trying to figure it out,
too. And then they're inevitablyat some point become A little
bit more grace or spaciousnessfor them and the mistakes they
make. And as they learn to growto, no one is exempt from being
a human on this earth. If we're,if we're taking this incarnation

(50:12):
as a human, we're going to havehuman tendencies. And that can
happen at all levels. Andteachers are no exception. And
what their responsibility is,it's always on the student, to
be able to, to sit with, todiscuss, to move through it. And

(50:35):
if it consistently doesn't feelright, and don't learn from that
person, or figure out what youcan learn what your takeaways
are, and leave the rest withoutfeeling the need to glorify that
person.

Right. I think it sounds like maybe what you're
saying too, is talking aboutthese different phases of the
relationship with the teacher.
Like, there's also it's alsobeen called the honeymoon
period, the fall from grace, andthen relationship building. I
like that framework, becausethere's this idea that maybe you
do get disappointed, but theneventually, you come back
around, just like you would withany, like friendship or romantic
relationship. Yes, there's apoint where you move past the

(51:12):
honeymoon, and then you're inthis really the real part of
like, actually building therelationship from a healthy
standpoint, because I think whatyou're touching on too, is so
much of what happens with aguru, especially as people bring
all their residual parentalunresolved parental issues. And
they're projecting all thisstuff, like they want the person
to be the mother or the father,and to be or to be their friend.

(51:33):
And they have like these, likeexpectations. And that's got to
be, for that reason, so hard tobe like a revered teacher or
popular teacher. But maybe like,I'm curious to hear what you
think, maybe like the process istrying to get through those
early stages as fast as you can.
And like getting becoming awareof it. Hopefully, the teacher is

(51:53):
giving you practices that aregiving you the discernment to
then, like go through thatprocess, right?

Yeah, definitely. I think that it's so important to
be aware of those stages. Iremember reading this book while
living at the Academy. And itjust opened me up so much,
because I was like, oh,everything, you know, everyone
has a different relationshipwith this teacher. And I see the

(52:21):
whole spectrum, I see the wholespectrum of how people project
or engage with the teacher andteachings. And there's a lot of
disillusionment from my lens.
But as soon as I saw, oh, Icould understand this person is
in their honeymoon period. Andit can go for years, there's a
compassion around that totally,totally. It's like, oh, they're,

(52:43):
they're moving in this way. Andthen I've seen the fall from
grace, and what happens and whatgets stirred up within us. And
then and the people that breakoff at that point, which is
completely reasonable,especially if you're talking
about cults. Right. But yeah,the teacher should be able to
then have enough of theprinciples that they're

(53:05):
teaching, and from myperspective, that they're living
as well. And, and it's been onus as students to see. Okay, I
can learn this these elements oflife from this teacher, and then
these elements I might need tolearn elsewhere.

Yeah, and yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Well
raises the question, though, isthere? I mean, is it always okay
to just be like teacher hopping?
Or is there a benefit to likesort of committing, at least for
a while?

I, I mean, we've talked about this, I definitely
think there's a benefit tocommitting at least for a while.
And to dig one deep well, versusseveral shallow wells, however,
it's, it's been beneficial tohave consistently spent time
digging that one deep well, andthen dip my toes in other small

(53:56):
wells, and see that theinformation is congruent, and
it's consistent, whether that'sthrough jñāna yoga and knowledge
or through sitting in Vipassanaand hearing the lectures be
tangential to what we'restudying elsewhere, which is
great. And then I think, I'vepersonally gotten to a point
where I look and I see, okay,this slice of the pie isn't

(54:20):
going to be filled here. So I'mgonna go look for a teacher that
can do that. But I'm nowrealizing I am that teacher, for
myself, I have had, I have tothen sit with these things and
resolve them for me. And thennaturally, if there's a teacher
that's supposed to teach me thatit'll come through and whether
that looks like a guru or thatlooks like a partner of some
way, then you learn that, butyes,

maybe. Okay, so maybe at this point, one way to
kind of sum up is to I want totalk about maybe some criteria
for selecting a teacher orknowing if a teacher is good for
you or that kind of thing. Thisis based primarily on Mariana
Caplan's framework from herbook, The Guru Question, but I
think I modified him a couple ofthese things, but basically You

(55:01):
want to say so this is where thelineage comes into play, like we
were talking about? Do you needa teacher who has a lineage? Or
do you need to know who theteachers teacher is? Right? I
think there's been so much insort of disagreement about this.
But for me, personally, I dothink there's a huge benefit to
having a lineage. Because if ateacher is self taught, then

(55:22):
it's harder to independentlyverify what they're saying. I
mean, you can do what you weresaying, I'm ready to go, which
is, you can, you can learn fromother sources and read ancient
scriptures and all that kind ofindependently verify what the
teacher is teaching. And in thatway, you're kind of I think
everyone should act as sort ofsort of like a yoga scientist,
like you're, you know, you'rebeing empirical, you're trying

(55:43):
things out, you're comparing twodifferent experiments, you know,
that kind of thing. So that's soessential. But having said all
that, yeah, the teacher'slineage, to me is so important,
because you have something tosort of there's, there's like,
a, it's backed by the teachersbacked by something profound and
ancient and time-tested, youknow, time tested. I mean,

(56:05):
speaking of science andempiricism, you know, if there's
a lineage, then these thingsthat have been passed down, have
been tested over manygenerations in linear. And so it
can be helpful to have a teacherwith a lineage, right? What do
you think about that?

Yeah, my first thought is, if you look at
cults, a lot of them don't haveany lineage, yeah, they're
operating from access to thisspiritual knowledge. And there
tend to be great orators and candeliver it. But they don't have
that anchoring that backing thathelps them operate from a
non-egocentric place, it givesthat foundation from which you

(56:41):
can also last them and it andthere's this certain respect
that you have for the teachings,if you recognize that it's not
just from that one individual,that there's a collective that's
been studying this over time.
And that's what you're a partof, versus just associating
yourself with a human or oneperson.

Yeah. I mean, I have had teachers where they've
been hesitant, hesitant to talktoo much about their teacher,
because I think there was aconcern, a legitimate concern,
that people would just be too,like, in their heads about his
lineage question and not justlike, surrendering to the
teaching. So there's a balancethere, maybe, but it's
important. And then so goingback to the framework, there's
also this question, is theteachers behavior more self

(57:24):
serving or egotistical? Or is itmore from a place of love and
humble service to the students?
Right, that's a obviously animportant question.

Definitely, definitely.

As a teacher promoting spiritual growth, or
are they sort of underminingpeople's maturation? And, you
know, just trying to getsomething for themselves? I
think that hopefully, that willbe pretty obvious, but sometimes
it's not, right.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one way that our teacher makes
it obvious is that he makes itclear that he doesn't need
anyone.

Right. Right.

Everyone is replaceable. Yeah, including
himself. And it's such a greatlesson. And it then makes me see
how do I want what what is myrelationship? What am I choosing
to move forward with? In thisrelationship? Yeah.

There's a there's an important discernment there
to find out if the teacher istruly teaching out of the sort
of act of selfless service, orthere's something else going on,
right?

Yeah. And I think the question for the teacher
would be like, Am I replaceable?
Or, right? Do you need me here?

Right? Is there?
Are there a lot of politics andplaying favorites? That can be
one, maybe one side, and thenand then that kind of brings up
like, you were saying a whileback, looking at the teachers,
student body and the Sangha, thecommunity around the teacher is
also a good way to to determinemaybe if the teacher is your
teacher? Do you resonate withpeople? Do they seem to be
benefiting from the practices?

(58:50):
That's another good one. Andthen, I think the last piece is
just to kind of fundamentalchemistry, like, some teachers
might be really wise, but theymight not be for you. You have
to resonate with a personpersonally, I think at some
level, you know, one of myteachers is, is really sort of
like fierce. And for me, thatwas like, what I I didn't even

(59:14):
realize it at first, but then Ilater understood that that's
what I needed was what I waslooking for somebody to kind of
like really cut through any BS.
Yeah, but then it might not befor everybody. Somebody might
need a very gentle, loving,compassionate teacher.

Absolutely. Yeah, I have found that I really
resonate with teachings like RamDass his teachings and through
Neem Karoli Baba because theyare so heart centered. And that
lands so well with me. And I cantake in that information in ways
that other teachers don'taddress it or there is a

(59:51):
fundamental shared love, butit's expressed in unique ways.
Yeah, and it's like what we'vesaid like, you know, Ya know,
like that, that cutting throughor that warm embrace? It feels
right? It feels like I think Ineed more of

Chad Woodford (01:00:09):
Right. Right, right, you have to do you have
to really trust your intuition.
And so much of the path is, istrusting your intuition.
Definitely. And just your withyour gut or your heart. Yeah,
you're all the all of the above.

Meghan Kemp (01:00:20):
And I think sangha definitely is helpful for that,
too, because you're goingthrough this together. And if
you're in the right sangha, thenyou are presented with these
questions back at you.

Yeah. And hopefully, any practice that's
holistic, and and diverse enoughwill have will not be one
dimensional. So it'll havewithin it, you know, all these
different things. One aspect ofthe practice may be heart
centered, and another aspect ismore fierce or cutting through
or whatever. And so yeah, sothen it's not just like, it's
all or nothing. I mean, youknow, so I think, like, what

(01:00:55):
we've studied, you know,software, and all that is pretty
diverse, and has that allpotentially has all that
contained within it. And itgives you the tools, I think to
be your own to pretty quickly beyour own teacher and to a large
extent,

yeah, maybe. And you can also see how that's
transpired in many individualswho have come through that
place, and how they've adaptedthe teachings that feel so true
to them. And then they sharethat in the world.

Yeah, absolutely.
So I think maybe the kind ofwrap up this discussion, it
seems like a teacher isespecially necessary for people
who maybe never had anybody intheir life who believed in them,
you know, like maybe that maybethat was my experience, I think,
to a large extent, it probablywas somebody who can see your
full potential. And then, likewe were saying earlier, kind of

(01:01:42):
push you a little bit to stepinto that can be very healing
that way. Absolutely. conclude,maybe allowing, allowing a
teacher to do kind of do thiswork on you like allowing that
actually, that kind ofsurrender, actually, maybe
paradoxically, increases yourfreedom. So if you surrender to
that process, and let go ofcontrol a little bit, then you

(01:02:05):
ultimately experience morepersonal freedom as a result,
wouldn't you say?

Yeah, I would, and you experience freedom and joy,
and, and the ability to flowwith life with greater ease when
you have someone that's helpingguide you along the way, because
it just it quickens the processof growth, you're inevitably at

(01:02:32):
some point going to experiencethat freedom. But now you can do
it with more ease. More grace.

Yeah. Yeah.

(01:03:09):
I wanted to just come back tospiritual community, how
important it is. Because you'vementioned a few times the
importance of Sangha. And we'vetalked about it, yeah. But you
know, it's tricky to because I'mreminded of this quote from
Mariana Caplan, once again,who's amazing, there are two
mistakes you can make inrelationship to the washroom or

to spiritual community. One (01:03:30):
not staying long enough. Two:
staying too long. So, thinkwe've all had this experience
experience. And so I guess, youknow, in terms of like,
spiritual, spiritual community,and people who are in community,
I think there can be in myexperience, it can be this sort

(01:03:51):
of conformity, like people canbe like conformist within
spirituality, and just followingblindly other people or the
teacher or whatever it is. Andso it's like, I don't know, how
do you approach that challenge?
Yeah, that's compassion. Maybewhat you were saying...

It is, it's ultimately understanding that
everyone has their own path. Andthat some people are going to
recognize it's time to departleave it living in that
community. In their own time,and like a time I don't want to
say anything like derogatory butfind that they're, they're ready

(01:04:35):
to go. And that means they'reready to go versus it being
expected that other peopleshould be ready to go at that
same time. And within that, ormaybe it's time to leave earlier
than expected and that's, that'sright for them too. But it is
important to leave that and

A lot of teachers will send you away and say you
need to go back into the realworld.

Yeah, right. And speaking from being back, away
from that life for the pastyear, I've grown and learned so
much in my day to day life thatwas the life or it was the
environment that I lived inprior to being in on a spiritual

(01:05:19):
path in a deep way. And it'sthis integrative quality that
makes the teachings and practiceso much more relevant and
applicable, when you're in yourcar or when you're in the
grocery store. versus whenyou're only living in that
community. It's much harder tohave compassion for strangers,
because you are with those samepeople all the time, right? You

(01:05:42):
can have a bubble It is about,it's definitely a bubble. And
it's a beautiful bubble forhealing to take place in, right?
Totally. Men's healing canhappen in a short amount of time
being in a supportiveenvironment like that. But it
can also be a lot of stagnationthat can occur to when it's when
life isn't when you're notengaging in life. In the world

(01:06:06):
outside of that bubble.

Yeah, I think it's I feel like Sangha or
spiritual community is such adouble edged sword, right? You
really need it. And it's soimportant to support you in your
process of going throughevolution and, and liberation
and all that. But it can also betricky, because you can get so
easily pulled into, I don't knowunnecessary drama or you know,
humaneness, humaneness orwhatever. Yeah, and I think

(01:06:28):
compassion is so important. Itreminds me of a big mistake I
made when I was first kind ofapproaching a spiritual
community was, I expected,because people had been there
for so long and practicing. Iexpected everyone to kind of be
like, these, like spiritualbeings of light, you know, just
floating around, like foot offthe ground, you know? And they
were like, the opposite. Youknow, everyone seemed like, kind

(01:06:49):
of a mess. And I was like, Oh,my God, this place is the worst,
like, what am I even doing here?
And it was like, such a wrongapproach, you know, because
there was no compassion, and itwas lack of understanding that,
like, you're saying everyone'son their own path, and they own
their own point on the journey,and doing the best they can. And
yeah, you just need to accepteveryone for who they are. And
if they were, we can talk aboutenlightenment in a minute. But

(01:07:10):
you know, if they were trulyenlightened, whatever that
means, then they probablywouldn't even be there. You
know, first of all, so yeah, youknow, it's it's so important, I
think, to just focus on your owngrowth, your own development,
and then to stop looking forsomebody to serve like as a role
model to maybe, but to just beyour own sort of like guiding
light in some cases.

Yeah. And I think it takes the detachment from
those places to find that innerlight right to to witness
yourself responding versusreacting environments, in
situations that you work 100%would have reacted poorly and
rise. friendlies are a perfectplace an example for

And what did Ram Dass say? If you think you're
enlightened...

spend a week with your family? Yeah, definitely.
That's being closer to family,after being in community I think
is such a natural for me, it wasa natural progression, because I
wanted to apply those lessons inreal time, and see where there's
still plenty of work to be done.

Yeah, that's my excuse to get to the point, I
think on the spiritual path,where then you start to welcome
new challenges and newopportunities for being
triggered or for being put intoa process or whatever it is,
then you face the turn and facethat, you know, I like Pema
Chodron, she, her whole thing islike turning towards the pain or
turning towards the growth, youknow, intentionally. So yeah,

(01:08:36):
that's beautiful. But so interms of enlightenment, though,
I feel like this is a conceptthat we could talk about for an
hour, but also is somisunderstood. I'm curious how
you think about enlightenment orwhat that means for you.

I love what it says about living enlightenment. And
that, through experiences, andjourneys and soft foam in
meditation, in conversation, youcan have these points of
connect, like, transcendentexperiences where you are

(01:09:10):
touching and being in anenlightened state, where you
were not stuck or attached tothe regressive behaviors,
tendencies latent qualities oflife and you are just a tuned to
something so much greater,higher, and that's just flowing

(01:09:30):
through you. And those thingscan happen. Where you're deep in
a space and you tasteenlightenment, and you touch it
or you experience it. You'revisualizing what it is to be
enlightened, and then you comeback and then you keep going
through life with that, thatremembrance that, that memory of

(01:09:53):
it, and, and it's it's so sweet.
It's so nice. It's it'sPersonally, I have found through
several practices I've, I'veexperienced the state beyond
death, I've gone to what it'slike, beyond what I know is life
right now. And, and it's, it'sbeautiful. It's easy. It's just,

(01:10:16):
it's that and like that that wasan experience of enlightenment
in that moment. Yeah. And here Iam today, you know, just like
right through life. So I'm notI'm not it's not a static, it's
not static. And it's not an endgoal it can be to happen to more
and more, and I think thefrequency of it can be

(01:10:36):
increased, and the access of italso is increased as you stay
diligent in the practice.

Yeah. So you're talking about it kind of like
another way of talking about thestate of yoga or the state of
unity? Yeah, it's a state ofunity, in a sense.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think it's so tricky, because I feel like so
many people think that it's somekind of end state or some kind
of goal to achieve. And that youhave to get there as fast as you
can. I think that's whatoftentimes results in spiritual
bypass and spiritual ego,because you are like, Okay, I've
got the concepts. Now, I'm goingto, like, take the Type A, you
know, Western, Americanapproach, and just, like, work

(01:11:15):
hard and try to get there asfast as I can. And, and...

...it only happens when you surrender...

right? Well, yeah, that's true. And there's
no, there's always in thegreater states of enlightenment,
right? So because the worditself just means like, greater
light, more light. So you'realways achieving greater light.
And it's not like you get to apoint where you can just like
rest, and I guess, I don't knowwhere you'd be anyways, to be on
the beach drinking Mai Tais. Idon't know what it looks like.
Right? So yeah, that's importantto remember. And,

and everyone can experience it. Yeah, everyone
has the ability to beenlightened in this way.

Right. But don't lose like, Don't lose yourself
in in

trying to accomplish it. Right.

And like rejecting the present moment,
because oh, I'm not enlightened.

Right? And also,

it brings up this question I've had for a long
time of, you know, you hear alot, especially from Buddhists
about wanting to "escape thecycle of birth and death." And
which always makes me a littlesad, because it sounds like a
person who's kind of depressedor like, doesn't love their
life, because I'm thinking, whywould you want to escape this
amazing life? And then whatlike, what does that mean?

(01:12:21):
You're like, annihilated, youknow, I don't know, I like the
idea that you're, like, I thinkthe yoga practice, hopefully, is
giving you the ability tocelebrate life and to really
enjoy life. And so I'm curious,you know, when you hear like,
the definite goal to escape thecycle of birth and death, what
does that mean for you? The bigquestion, yeah.

So I love the concept of Boddhisattvas that
somebody who comes back, someonewho has reached enlightenment,
according to that perspective ofit, and chooses to come back and
be of service to other humansare beings to get closer to

(01:13:04):
enlightenment. And, and I lovethe idea too, that we all have
that potential within us tobecome the Bodhisattva. And the
only way we can get there isthrough this, this life and
conscious action. And when whenwe think about birth lifecycle,

(01:13:28):
and all that it so people canget caught in the semantics of
it. Because all they have aknowledge is of this life and
thinking that something'sgreater over there. But really,
all we ever have is now. Yeah,and this soul is experiencing
now right now. So make the mostof it right now. Right? And that

(01:13:50):
includes being cognizant ofwhat's happening around you
right now, too, and not notturning a blind eye to suffering
that is occurring, even ifyou're in bliss, right? And how
that bliss can naturally be ofservice through various channels
to the suffering that is alsosimultaneously happening.

Yeah, because everything is, according to the
Upanishads, everything issimultaneously an illusion, and
the most real at the same time.
And so I think that's a goodreminder, because I've heard so
many people who considerthemselves spiritual. I've heard
them say things like, Well, youknow, nothing's real. So you
know, whatever. Yeah. And it'slike, it's a convenient way to
kind of check out but it deniesthe absolute suffering that's

(01:14:34):
happening, you know, for peoplein the world. Yeah. You know,
that's the sufferings realbecause it hurts. Yeah. It's not
like, Oh, it's that your pain isan illusion. You can't tell?
Yeah,

right. It's like, this is all an illusion. Okay,
like, hit me in the face. Yeah,

yeah. So I think, I think, you know, I think maybe
this idea of escaping the cycleof birth and death. I don't know
the answer, but I think maybethat idea might have partially
come in through, like theinfluence of the west on
Buddhism or on Easternmysticism. And the idea maybe
like, is related back to theChristian idea of heaven, and

(01:15:14):
hell, you know, or, like, youneed to escape from hell into
heaven, you know, and there'sthere isn't like you were saying
a minute ago, there's no otherplace to go to, you know,
there's just here and now, nomatter what level you're at, or
whatever, and so maybe escapingthe cycle of birth and death is
more escaping the idea that weever die, you know, that kind of

(01:15:34):
thing. So I don't know, whoknows, these are just fun things
to talk about. Definitely.

How many more lives you got?

Three.
Earlier you mentioned Jyotish.
Yeah. And I wanted to spend alittle time on that before we
wrap up. This is something thatyou and I both study. This is
Vedic Astrology. And so it'sastrology from the Yog-Vedantic

(01:16:04):
tradition. And we both love it.
And so maybe you could talk alittle bit about you know, how
you view astrology and what youlove about it and how what your
experiences experience has beenas a Jyotishi.

Yeah. So talk about spiritual bypassing. I think
it's been so popularized andknowing the sun moon rising sign
in western astrology, and I washonestly turned off by that,
that kind of sensationalism, andit just didn't feel grounded

(01:16:39):
enough, yes, it felt accurate tosome extent that I didn't feel a
call to dive deeper into it. Andso going into vedic astrology
and studying that was really myfirst deep soiree with astrology
in general, and having thefoundation of these Yog-Vedantic
studies, to build upon throughthe science of light, and really

(01:17:04):
like the math and stars andcelestial bodies, to help
understand humanity andconsciousness. And the most
beautiful thing that I've seen,in my experience, my brief
experience with it has just beenthe ability to recognize that,

(01:17:25):
oh, this, this isn't my fault.
In a way, this is just what I'mlikely to experience more of
more challenges of, or more easeand over and over and over,
because of the variables at thetime that I took my first breath
in this body. And within that,there's this great spaciousness

(01:17:46):
that happens, because you cansee life from a broader lens and
see that this life is anopportunity to move beyond our
karma and move into a moredharmic state of living, and
living life with great intentionand purpose and mastery, and to

(01:18:06):
essentially be of greaterservice and ease to all and this
is universal. And so to be ableto share this insight with other
people and to help them see lifefrom that broader context is
just a blessing. But I, I havenot intimately experienced with
Western astrology. So I can'tsay one thing or another about

(01:18:27):
it. But with Vedic, and thetools and technologies that you
can apply in real time to helpease the suffering for anybody
is just magnificent.

Yeah, it's really beautiful in that way. So I
think maybe it's important tohighlight you mentioned karma.
And so one way to kind of you toview Vedic Astrology or any
astrology really, is that it's away of getting a snapshot of
your karma. And so when we saythat, I think it's important to
remind people that I thinkthere's a misconception that
karma is sort of something thatyou're like, laden with, and

(01:19:00):
almost maybe is a little bit toodeterministic, but it's not
right. So karma is somethingthat we know from our yoga
practice, and our yoga studies,is something that you it is an
influence on your life. And itis sort of something that you
have to grapple with. Butbecause you have access to
especially if you're have accessto yoga, you know, there's these
technologies, there's thesepractices, there's these things

(01:19:20):
you can do to burn through yourkarma to become aware of it to
stop generating more karma. Andso a lot of what astrology is
doing is helping you with thatprocess, right?

Absolutely. Yeah.
And it gives you practical toolsthat you can apply today. As
soon as you start to realizewhat it is that you want to
remedy in your life. There's atechnology for it.

Yeah, yeah.
astrology is so life-affirmingfor me in that way. Like it's
very supportive of you realizingyour full potential. Definitely,
it's almost like it's servingthe role in a way of what we
were saying earlier is the roleof the guru or the teacher is
seeing the potential in you. Sothe astrologers helping you See
the potential, and then givingyou tools to realize that
potential. What I love aboutVedic Astrology too. In

(01:20:06):
addition, everything you weresaying is that the Vedic
Astrology offers these, itconnects back to the yoga
tradition. So it's all veryintegrated and whole and whole.
So it gives you these yogapractices you can do. And we're
not just talking about Asana,right, but we're talking about
mantra, or kriya, or devotionalpractices, all that stuff, it

(01:20:27):
gives you all these tools tothen address the imbalances or
the karmic challenges that arehighlighted in the chart. Right.
So that's, that's one thing Ireally love about giving
readings from a Vedicperspective is that you have
these ways of working with theenergies. Yeah,

definitely. Yeah.
Energy at play.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think we've probably talked long
enough about yoga, and astrologyand all the things it was fun,
though. Yeah. So when we didthis, you know,

yeah, yeah. having me on.

Yeah. I want to do more of these discussions and
not just having been me talkingall the time. Because, right.
Like, it's all for me andeverybody else. Yeah. So. So
yeah. So how can people findyou?

If you want to get in touch then you can find me at
my website, meghankemp.com andon Instagram at @meghan_kemp.
And I love teaching one-on-ones,I love offering Vedic chart
readings. I love working withgroups. Basically, having

(01:21:32):
conversations like this alsofeeds my soul. So if anything
has piqued interest and you wantto connect, I'm here.

Great. Yeah. And I will say I've experienced
Meghan's classes and herteachings and she's a great
teacher and astrologer. So it'sbeen so good to have you on the
show.

Thanks, Chad. And thanks for having me.

You're also a talented designer. I don't know
if you want to talk about that.
Thank you. Yeah. multitalented?

It's like the yoga practice gives us

access to infinite creativity. Exactly.
Yeah. Well, thank you. Anyparting thoughts?

Om Shanti Shanti Shanti. Hari Om Tat Sat

All right. Thank you.

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