November 16, 2022 • 65 mins
This week I talk to Hilary Jackendoff, a yoga nidra and meditation teacher and trainer, and Human Design coach. She’s also a powerful, heart-centered woman. To me, Hilary is the ideal teacher: wise yet humble, evolved yet grounded, knowledgeable yet hilarious.
In this episode, we talk about Yoga Nidra, states of consciousness, how Hilary came to the spiritual path, the importance of rest, making spiritual practices accessible, ashram life, and being seen by the Divine.
We barely scratched the surface of what we want to talk about so look for a part 2 coming very soon, perhaps even in the coming weeks!
A quick note on the audio quality in this episode: Even though I used the same setup I always use for remote interviews, somehow my mic was too hot. So my audio will sound clipped or muffled in places. My apologies. Thank you for bearing with me. Apparently you never stop learning how to podcast well.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hilary Jackendoff (00:00):
My mission in life is to help more people help
(00:06):
as many people as possiblerealize that peace is available
to them, realize that joy isavailable to them, that ease is
available to them, and that selflove and self acceptance have to
exist. Like you have to developinto, into yourself and embrace
(00:28):
the totality of who you are,including your shadow. And, and
you have to show up inauthenticity so that you can
step fully into your purpose andbe of service in this world and
support people in transformingand moving towards peace, joy
and ease in your own way. Iwould say that I'm using it as I
(00:54):
would say I'm using it as afoundational tool for self
inquiry and a path to selfacceptance and self love.
Chad Woodford (01:20):
Welcome to Spiritual But Not Ridiculous, a
podcast that explores the worldof spirituality from a grounded
and clear-eyed perspective. I'myour host Jayadev, a yoga
teacher, Vedic astrologer,attorney, and technologist.
(01:51):
On this episode, I'm talking toHilary Jackendoff, a yoga nidra
and meditation teacher andtrainer and human design coach.
She's a powerful, heart-centeredwoman, as you'll see. To me,
Hilary is the ideal teacher,wise yet humble, evolved yet
grounded, knowledgeable yethilarious. In this episode, we
(02:14):
talk about yoga nidra, states ofconsciousness, how Hilary came
to the spiritual path, theimportance of rest, making
spiritual practices accessible,ashram life, and being seen by
the Divine. We barely scratchedthe surface of what we wanted to
talk about. So look for part twocoming very soon, perhaps even
(02:35):
in the coming weeks. And a quicknote on the audio quality in
this episode, you know, I takegreat pride in the audio quality
of my podcast. Andunfortunately, this time, even
though I used the same setupthey always use for remote
interviews. Somehow my mic wastoo hot. So my audio, like my
(02:57):
side of the channel, will sounda little clipped, or a little
muffled in places, a littlecompressed because of that. So
my apologies, thank you forbearing with me, as I continue
to learn how to podcast.
Apparently even after years ofdoing it, you still never stop
learning how to podcast.
Alright, so here's myconversation with Hilary.
(03:25):
Okay, so I'm here with HilaryJackendoff, who is a yoga nidra
and meditation teacher based inLos Angeles, and also kind of
weaves them through all ourofferings, human design, which
we'll probably talk about aswell. And yeah, we're sort of
neighbors here in Los Angeles.
So welcome to the podcast,Hilary.
Hilary Jackendoff (03:43):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really
excited for for our chat today.
Chad Woodford (03:49):
Yeah, yeah, I think you and I have a lot in
common, even though we sort ofcome from different. There's
sort of some commonalities, butthere's also a lot of
differences in terms of whatwe're offering. So I like the
overlap, the Venn diagram, orwhatever you want to say.
Hilary Jackendoff (04:04):
We have many, many common threads in our
tapestry.
Chad Woodford (04:09):
Yes, so. So I wanted to start by just talking
a little bit about maybe we'llstart with yoga nidra. Because I
feel like it's something that alot of people are familiar with,
but also a lot of people are notfamiliar with. And it seems like
it's what would you say it's oneof your primary offerings?
Hilary Jackendoff (04:27):
Yeah, I would say you're gonna do a certainly
one of my primary offerings andrunning yoga nidra teacher
trainings is a big part of ofwhat I do. And it's definitely
what I'm, it sounds so annoyingto say like what I'm most known
for, but I've been reallycommitted to sharing this
practice for a little over adecade now. And talking about it
(04:52):
obsessively since 2008. So I'vedefinitely consistently been
spreading the word on yoga nidraas, as a powerful tool to really
address like all the pain pointsthat we're facing as, as human
beings in the modern world.
Chad Woodford (05:11):
It's a beautiful practice. I've experienced that
a little bit myself. And I thinkyou said at one point when we
were talking before that it'slike, I think you feel like it's
the ultimate form of yoga,perhaps. But for people who
aren't familiar with it, can youjust say a little bit about what
it is or where it comes from?
Hilary Jackendoff (05:28):
Yeah, absolutely. So the way I sort of
present it to folks who are, youknow, coming to it fresh. It's,
it's a guided meditationpractice yoga, "Nidra"
translates to yogic sleep. Soit's about learning how to,
actually, this isn't a beginnerspresentation of it at all. Yeah,
(05:53):
let's let's wander back. It's abeginner friendly, guided
meditation that that helps youlearn how to let go. That's
that's sort of how I express itin a very simple way. And then,
you know, when when folks arelike, is that sounds great. Is
it yoga, like, do I have to doexercises and be flexible? You
(06:16):
know, because that's, it blowsmy mind. Like, that's still the
first thing that people say. Soit's definitely not fully in,
you know, the sort of secularlandscape yet, but it's
definitely coming. So So Ialways try to make it clear that
this is yoga, right? This is ayogic practice. This is a
practice that builds awareness,that expands consciousness. But
(06:42):
there is no movement involvedwhatsoever. So you practice from
lying down yoga nidra, as I sortof mentioned a moment ago is
yogic sleep, so sleep withawareness. So in addition to it
being a meditation technique,and there are many, many sort of
versions of yoga nidra, manydifferent techniques that that
(07:04):
fall under sort of the umbrellaterm of yoga nidra. In addition
to it being a meditationtechnique, it's also a state of
consciousness. So it's the stateof consciousness. Whereby your
body and your mind are asleep,you are likely in delta
brainwaves, but awareness isfunctioning. So it sort of gives
(07:29):
you this embodied experience ofpure awareness, pure
consciousness, beyond thoughtbeyond the body, beyond the mind
beyond this, the ego, right, andlets you drop into this pure
place of, of knowing who we arebeyond.
Chad Woodford (07:46):
Wow, that's really beautiful. Yeah, I think,
you know, as you're talking toyou, what I'm thinking about is
one challenge that I think a lotof us yoga teachers have who are
trying to teach a style of yogathat's not Asana, you know, per
se, the challenge we have isthat it's this educational
process where we have to kindof, you know, explain to people
(08:06):
basically that, that yoga is somuch broader than just
stretching or just, you know,doing warrior pose or whatever.
Right. So I think it's, it'sbeautiful, because it helps
people to understand that yogais what you were saying earlier,
really, it's about it's any kindof practice, really, that is
helping you to, to expandconsciousness or to be more
(08:28):
aware, you know, to kind of workwith that more subtle energy in
the body, right?
Hilary Jackendoff (08:33):
Yeah, absolutely. Yoga Nidra is a, it
can be considered a Tantricpractice. And, you know, tantra,
there's a lot of differentdefinitions for the word Tantra.
But one of them is to expand,right to expand consciousness.
(08:54):
And yoga nidra very much expandsour understanding of what
consciousness is. And I mean,the coolest thing about it is
there's no barrier to entry. Solike if someone has never
meditated before in their life,and they come to, for example, a
group yoga nidra practice, andthey're lying down nice and cozy
(09:15):
next to someone who's had adaily practice for decades.
There's no sort of, like, theperson who's never meditated
before it can go as deep ordeeper than the person who has
been meditating every day for 20years. Because it's not
dependent on gray matter in thebrain to access the state of
(09:37):
consciousness. It's simplydependent on your ability to
feel safe in your body and yourability to trust that you're
safe to let go.
Chad Woodford (09:46):
Yeah, that's, that's powerful. I mean, it's
great because it's soaccessible, like you're saying,
you can just, you know, forpeople who maybe are intimidated
by Yoga, you can just show upand lie down on the floor, and
that's, you know, what's moreaccessible than that? Really?
Hilary Jackendoff (09:59):
No, I'm accessible, like, you know, and
you don't even have to lie down,like if lying down is
uncomfortable, you can sit up,you can lie on your side, like
you can do whatever you want,you know, and you just allow
yourself guided and practicethis, you know, this, this
attitude or you connect to thisattitude of deep receptivity and
(10:20):
allow yourself to simplysurrender to this experience of
non doing. And, yeah, you can'tbeat it. I don't want to sound
like, Well,
Chad Woodford (10:33):
no, I think you're right. I think you're
right. Yeah. I mean, so that,you know, I think a lot of my
listeners are into the more sortof, like nuanced, you know,
esoteric. Philosophy and thatkind of thing, and yoga, so
maybe we can talk for a secondabout the different states of
consciousness, right. Sothere's, there's sort of four
states, right? There's sort of,there's a waking, sleeping as we
(10:57):
would normally think about it,and dreaming. And then there's
the fourth state Turiya state,right? It's so are we talking
about Turiya state in Nidra?
Hilary Jackendoff (11:08):
Yeah, effectively, I mean, that's,
it's, it's that state beyondwaking, dreaming, and sleeping,
that state of awareness issleep. And that's, that's the
state of consciousness that isyoga nidra. And it's, it's kind
of, you can understand it. I'malways hesitant to say like,
(11:32):
it's enlightenment, right. Butit's, there are there are levels
of enlightenment not to do he'slove to break everything down
into like categories, and like,level one, like the tangibly add
a name, we're going toeverything. We just name it and
claim it. But it's, it gives youa taste of enlightenment, right
(11:55):
like enlightenment. All themystical traditions characterize
enlightenment, as this state ofknowing, right? This
indescribable state, knowingthat is, is that it doesn't last
very long. It's you can't reallyspeak about it in words, you
only know that you'veexperienced it. Typically, after
(12:16):
it's occurred for most folks.
Every time you experience it,you sort of deepen your
connection to it. And it informsthe way you show up and all of
the other states ofconsciousness that you
experience in daily life. Yeah,so like this little touch in to
this mystical experience ofenlightenment, this ineffable
(12:40):
experience of knowing that thereis awareness, there is
consciousness beyond the formbeyond the thought stream, and
you touch into that space, andthen you go back to your daily
life after you know, a 2030minute yoga nidra practice. And
it just changes you just like,it just you just show up to life
(13:03):
with a little bit more lightnesswith a little bit more ease,
because you're not gripping sohard to the attachment to the
ego to the self to yourpreferences to you know, it
helps you to overcome theclashes, those different ways
that we are as human beings.
Chad Woodford (13:23):
Yeah. So that's so well said. Thank you for
that. And I think, I think interms of the benefits you're
talking about, you're like ashining example of that. Right?
You're, you're like one of themost joyful people I know. So
the proof is in the Hilary.
Hilary Jackendoff (13:38):
Yeah. I mean, it's been my primary practice
for 15 since 2008. And that wasreally kind of what kicked off
for me it was through this firstexperience of yoga nidra.
Chad Woodford (13:53):
Yeah, yeah. Well, let's talk about that. Then. I
mean, I'm curious to hear alittle bit about your story. You
know, how you got started. Iknow you say, you're on your
website. You know, you you sortof encountered this this place
in New Zealand, right. It wasthe first experience and then
kind of went from there. So youwant to talk about that a little
bit?
Hilary Jackendoff (14:10):
Yeah, it was a nice segue. We just did that
was smooth. So I mean, okay, soit goes back. I don't want to
like give my whole life storybut, but I kind of always had
like, mystical leanings, like asa child, and very much had like
(14:32):
devotional leanings, as well. AsI found out later, much later in
life. My mom told me that, thatI used to when I was old, when
we would walk my brother toschool, Catholic school, and we
would cross the street and Iwould run across the street and
as soon as I got to the otherside, I would run to the rectory
(14:53):
lawn and prostrate myself infront of the Virgin Mary. Oh,
wow. Yeah. And then when I wasabout five or six, I I created a
prayer shrine like a prayercorner in my room, and had like
my rosaries, and my scapular,and my Bibles and my, my statues
of Mary and Jesus. So I wasraised Catholic and Jewish, and
(15:14):
I sort of developed apluralistic approach to
spirituality. I'm pretty young,because of that, sort of
multicultural, multimulticultural, like, because of
those different religiousbackgrounds that I was exposed
to. Then in college, I startedstudying different religious
(15:40):
traditions and kind of deepen myconnection to that, you know,
sort of many paths up themountain approach, studying
Taoism and Buddhism, and, youknow, studying mysticism, the
philosophy and mysticism. Andthen after college, I started
practicing meditation and aBuddhist community in
(16:02):
Philadelphia, and Kadampacommunity. And the practices
that I was nothing against thesepractices, they're beautiful.
For so many people who are atthe right stage to receive them,
(16:22):
sure, of a particular quality ofawareness have a particular kind
of mind. There's so manymeditation practices, and that's
the beauty of it, like we, noteverything has to be for
everyone. So suffice it to say,the Kadampa Buddhist practices
were not for me, it was brutal.
Me, like, sitting in like a poolof my own mental mess every time
(16:46):
and I know, that's normal for alot of meditation practices, for
people to kind of have toovercome this hurdle. But I was
dealing with a lot of anxiety atthe time, and did not support
me. And then it was I wastraveling,
Chad Woodford (17:05):
was it too? Was it too austere? Or too, like,
you know, almost too simple? Orwhat was the
Hilary Jackendoff (17:11):
there was minimal guidance, the sets were
long, so the sets were usuallyan hour. And the guidance was
pretty much restricted toinhaling white light and
exhaling black smoke. And, youknow, I mean, there was some
more to but but that was it, asI understand now, and as I
(17:34):
understood, like, you know, whenI started my meditation teacher
training, the practices itdidn't, they didn't properly
internalize me. So I wasn't inthe parasympathetic nervous
system. During the, like, Iwasn't drawn in. So I was in
this very, you know, consciousmind very cognitive state of
(17:57):
being I was in. I wasn't in thestate to drop into meditation.
So I wasn't guided in.
Chad Woodford (18:07):
Or sounds like you were you were too aware of
how much you were thinking in away. And there was no, there was
no technique to get you out ofthat, right. There's a great,
you probably know, this quote isa great quote from I think it's
a Zen tradition, where they say,when you first start meditating,
it feels like sticking your headin a garbage can. It's like
(18:32):
that.
Hilary Jackendoff (18:33):
It did, it really did. And for those folks
that want to just keep stickingtheir head in the garbage can
and wait for it to get better.
Fantastic. But, you know, I was21 years old, and that was not
working for me. I was trying,you know, I was I was showing up
Chad Woodford (18:54):
yeah but, but that wasn't enough.
Hilary Jackendoff (18:57):
Yeah. And, and I had started practicing
yoga, not long after, and that'sthat's um, yeah, that's that's a
maybe a different story for adifferent time. How is that
story for now? I don't know.
Well,
Chad Woodford (19:15):
I guess you know, I mean, tell tell any story you
want but
Hilary Jackendoff (19:23):
you know, I was sitting on a flight to Los
Angeles and ended up sittingnext to a a well regarded as it
turned out, yoga teacher seemsso peaceful and like so calm,
and it turned out later, youknow, like many of the people in
yogic positions of leadership,he was also a sexual predator.
(19:44):
And he wasn't a teacher for me,at any point, but he asked me
into the path. And he said,like, you're right for yoga, and
I was like, oh, right for yoga.
Chad Woodford (20:03):
That's a strange way to put it anyways. Yeah,
Hilary Jackendoff (20:05):
yeah, that's what he said. He probably says
it to every pretty young girl.
Chad Woodford (20:10):
Although, you know, it does conjure up what
does that mantra is? Yeah, it'sthe mantra where the talks
about, you know, you reach apoint where your, your, your
mental state or your state ofyoga is so rife that it's like,
it's like a creeper. Vegetable,who just falls gently off of the
(20:33):
vine or whatever it was, thatwas
Hilary Jackendoff (20:36):
Maha Mrityunjaya mantra? Yah, yah,
Chad Woodford (20:38):
yah, yah, yah, was a ripeness reference, I
guess,
Hilary Jackendoff (20:45):
bring from the cucumber from the vine. I
thought that was a bit well, wecan get into the esoterics of
mantra another time. But anyway,I started practicing yoga. And
then I ended up traveling to NewZealand with my boyfriend at the
time. And I was basically tryingto break up with him. And so
(21:11):
failed on a pretty big hike thatwe were supposed to do together.
Because the notion of like,five, six nights, camping and
hiking and carrying packs anddoing food and like when we were
like, on the verge of breakingup, sounded like a hellscape. My
(21:31):
husband, you know, and we're noton the verge of break up like
that. It's a challenge to dothat to a relationship. And so I
basically was like, Hey, I'm notgonna go on this hike, like,
let's take a break. And I'mgonna go to this Ashram, I'm
gonna go to this yoga retreatinstead, and do a little bit of,
you know, self inquiry, really,and kind of figure out where I'm
(21:54):
at. And then I rocked out tothis ashram in New Zealand. And
it was quite clear that I wasthis was not like a yoga
retreat. This was not somethinglike that. It was something I
did not yet understand.
Chad Woodford (22:12):
Is hard work or a real traditional Asana?
Hilary Jackendoff (22:16):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I rolled up on aFriday. And they were doing a
havan, like, a Maha Mrityunjaya,havan outside. And everybody's
in their robes and their shavedheads and their Tilak. And, you
know, the whole whole nine yardslike that was my entry.
Chad Woodford (22:36):
For my audiene who's not familiar, a havan is a
fire ceremony? Yes.
Hilary Jackendoff (22:40):
Yeah. So it was celebrating the founder of
the ashram 25th anniversary,Swami. So the 25th anniversary,
taking prednisone Yes. And itwas quite an experience. And I
was like, What did I where am I?
What is?
Chad Woodford (22:58):
Right? So you were hesitant. I mean, you
weren't like, this is great.
You're kind of hesitant,
Hilary Jackendoff (23:03):
super hesitant. And then the, you
know, like learning schedule ofthe of the week. It's like,
you'll be doing hours of karmayoga, you'll be chopping wood,
you'll be sweeping the floors,you'll be cleaning the rooms,
you'll be weeding the garden,the yoga action. And I was like,
(23:24):
okay, so I paid to work. Got it.
Then I did yoga nidra. And I waslike, This is it.
Chad Woodford (23:31):
So that was that was the hook. And that was
Hilary Jackendoff (23:35):
I didn't know I was like I am about this. This
is
Chad Woodford (23:40):
like right at first right away. First of all,
Hilary Jackendoff (23:43):
this morning of the second, like the first
morning that I was there. Irolled that on a Friday. And
that are 12 o'clock, I shouldsay on Saturday, yoga nidra.
That was
Chad Woodford (23:55):
powerful. So maybe we should pause for a
second and just clarify. Soearlier you were saying that
(24:15):
it's it's yogic sleep, butthere's different experiences of
what we might call sleep, rightand yoga nidra. So, sometimes
you're literally maybe justasleep, but sometimes you're
more in this turiya state wewere talking about. So just for
the listener who hasn'texperienced this, like, whatever
your experience is, is okay.
But, you know, in the ideal inthe ideal sort of experience of
(24:37):
yoga nidra Are you kind ofaware, you know, are you what is
the sort of the interior statelike?
Hilary Jackendoff (24:48):
Well, I would hesitate to say the ideal state
because it's all perfect, right,Hillary? No, way you can fuck it
up man. No way. It iseffortlessness embodied, um, you
(25:09):
know, over like, here's thething, if you like yoga nidra,
is that you're playing the longgame, you're playing the long
game. It's the variety ofexperiences that you'll have in
practice are infinite, like Icannot possibly begin to address
(25:30):
here, the range of things thatwill come up the range of
experiences on every level ofyour being mental, physical,
emotional, you know, spiritualpsychic, every single level of
your being will be affected, andyou will have transformative
experiences. But ultimately, thethe experiences don't matter.
(25:52):
Right? We know that. In theyogic tradition, we are not
against thing, we are justsimply open to receive
Chad Woodford (26:03):
practicing, because we're not attached or
not attached to any outcomes.
We're not attached to having acertain experience. Yeah,
Hilary Jackendoff (26:08):
yeah, presumably. Um, so but with yoga
nidra. Like, that's, that's thething like we are, we're letting
go of expectation. And we'reallowing our experience to
unfold over time, we're allowingour relationship to the practice
our relationship to the state ofbeing to reveal itself to us.
(26:29):
And, you know, the best thingabout, well, one of the best
things about yoga nidra is thefact that for so many people,
meditation is hard. So manypeople meditation, yes, it's
true. It's, it's a should, it'ssomething that they doctor told
(26:53):
them to meditate because oftheir blood pressure, or, you
know, their therapist told themthat they need to meditate to
regulate their emotions, likethey know that they need to do
it. They know that it's good forthem, but they don't want to
because it's hard. And becausemost of the time, when people
first come to meditation, theyhave the experience that I
(27:13):
described, that I had, whichsucked. Like it just Yeah, hard,
and life is hard, and you don'twant to do more things. If you
don't really sense that there'sgoing to be a payoff, like you
people want instant results, forbetter or worse. It's just
weird, most of us, and yoganidra. And like, you know, it's
(27:40):
not to say that I don't have aseated meditation practice, like
I do. Against other meditativetechniques, I practice a range
of them. But yoga nidra tends tobe for people of all levels of
experience, a pleasure.
Something that you want to do.
(28:03):
So you feel naturally,spontaneously and deeply drawn
to your practice, because itfeels really good. It's like a
treat. Yeah, it's like a treat.
It's like a treat. And you know,no matter what the quality of
your experience is, you'rereceiving amazing benefits.
Like, even if you're fullypresent. And you feel as though
(28:23):
you're not dropping in, becauseyou know that that drop in is
something that you're desiring.
And you maybe you've had itbefore. And so you're getting a
tap, and you're like, but why amI not melting? Why am I not
dissolving into bliss. And youhave that like desire attached,
right? And the quality of yourpractice is just not hitting
(28:47):
that that just, you're just notgetting there, and you're
totally present. And you're likefollowing every instruction like
to the letter and you're just sothere that you're like you just
can't not be there, right. Andsometimes we are a little
experience chasing, we don'twant to be present in that
quality of mind. We want to getit like turiya state. But even
(29:14):
if you're fully there and yourexperience in practice, you
know, six days a week is youjust showing up and following
the instructions, you'rebuilding gray matter, you're
shrinking the amygdala, right?
You're building neural pathwaysbetween body and mind. You're
learning to, you know, witnessand welcome whatever is arising.
(29:36):
You're strengthening your trustin your ability to move between
you're strengthening your trustand ability to move between
different different experiences,different sensations. So
Chad Woodford (29:55):
yeah, yeah, what so what a great advertisement
for meditation. That was thatwas Fantastic. Yeah, that's why,
you know, I think, Well, for me,you know, I teach meditation as
well. And part of what I triedto do to make it some are more
accessible and less like a likework is, is to frame it, you
know, sometimes I'll say like,you know, meditation is just
(30:17):
sitting for 10 minutes orsitting for a certain amount of
time, there is a technique, butthe most important thing is that
you're just doing it, you know,it doesn't matter if you're
doing it well, or whatever. I'llalso say that it's just a time
for you to sit, sit there andfully accept yourself, you know,
are these kinds of simplethings, even though the
technique that I offer is basedon kriya, and a mantra, but But
(30:43):
yeah, and you know, and thenagain, like the in the mantra is
another way for it to be moreaccessible, because then you're
just working with something thathelps the mind to kind of have
something to chew on. Right.
But, but Yeah, but you're, Ithink your point was, the Nidra
is a great entry point. It'skind of it's kind of like for
me, you know, I teach a lot ofkriyas and a lot of the kriyas
that I teach, they really putyou very effectively and very
(31:06):
efficiently in this meditativestate. And so I think that's
kinda what you're saying aboutNidra, right, is that it's
putting you in a state,especially if you do it
consistently over time, wherethen you just start to it starts
to bleed over into your life,and maybe you then find sitting
meditation easier, or, ordeeper, or that kind of?
Hilary Jackendoff (31:27):
Absolutely, it's, you know, and one of the
things that all that I'll sayis, with with Nidra, like, you
said, like it puts you in thatthat meditative state and, and I
mentioned earlier, that part ofmy challenge with that Buddhist
(31:48):
technique was the fact that myawareness wasn't internalized.
And I, after I did mymeditation, teacher training,
and I learned about meditationtheory, and I learned about, you
know, how to introvertconsciousness to access the
meditative state. Themethodology employed in yoga
(32:09):
nidra is is so powerful at doingjust that it's so deliberate,
it's so systematic, and theprecision of the technique. You
know, like, when I when I leadteacher trainings my students
can, like, they're kind of blownaway, like after they teach
(32:33):
Nidra to a friend or a familymember, and their friend or
family member, usually whodoesn't meditate is like, oh, my
god, that was amazing. Like, Iwent somewhere, I felt so
peaceful, like I, I wasn'tthinking, and they're blown away
by the fact that they were ableto facilitate that experience
for someone. And most of thepeople that I train, many of
(32:54):
them aren't yoga teachers. Andthis is the first teacher
training that many of the peoplethat I that I trained have done
well, and yeah. And thetechnique works, like the
precision of the techniquefacilitates an introversion of
consciousness and a withdrawalof the senses. It facilitates
(33:17):
pratyahara in such an efficientway, in such a simple way. And
in a way that's so simple forpeople to guide, right, like it
is. It's beautiful, like there'sno barrier to entry. And it's,
it's, it just works. It justworks well.
Chad Woodford (33:38):
Amazing. And, and we should say, you have a nidra
teacher training coming up inthe spring, in the spring,
Hilary Jackendoff (33:48):
finishing one up next weekend. And then right
now the waitlist is open forfolks to kind of express their
interest. And then applicationswill open. Yeah, soon. Soon. So
it'll be starting in February.
Chad Woodford (34:07):
Amazing. Yeah. I mean, yeah, sure. After all that
I don't know how anybody can notsign up for your thing. So
Hilary Jackendoff (34:17):
world needs more well trained yoga nidra
teachers so badly. And, youknow, especially the, the
practice is getting more andmore traction in mainstream
society, like it's getting to bemore secularly well known
because of Andrew Huberman, theStanford neuroscientist, who has
(34:37):
been sort of presenting it to tothe scientific community to his
large podcast audience to hissocial media following he's been
calling it non sleep deep rest.
And fair enough, like whateveris going to bring more people to
the practice. I'm so here forit. Like,
Chad Woodford (34:59):
right here.
clunky it's kind of a clunkyexpression that I mean,
Hilary Jackendoff (35:03):
NSDR. It's a little clunky NSDR but it is non
sleep deep rest, right like andmore and more. But that's like a
very simple sort of way to justget people on board with the
idea that rest is important. Andrest is a physiological
biological necessity. It's not aluxury. It's not, you know, it's
(35:25):
not lazy it is your body needsto regain hormonal homeostasis
After navigating the stresses ofdaily life.
Chad Woodford (35:34):
Yes, amen. to that. I think rested more, I
think the whole world havechanged. Honestly.
Hilary Jackendoff (35:41):
That's been my vision, man, that's been my
vision since 2008. It's likeeveryone would be more peaceful,
kinder, emotionally regulated,like, when we're not well
rested, when we're not wellslept. And you're going to do it
helps to address issues withsleep as well. And trauma,
healing trauma. It like it. Whenwe're not getting the rest that
(36:04):
we need. We are not functioningoptimally on a cognitive level.
We're not processing andintegrating our emotions
properly. Like, we're, we'rewe're a mess.
Chad Woodford (36:18):
Yeah. But like reminder. Yeah. So isn't. So
your mission is to help peoplelearn? Yeah, what is your what
would you say your mission is,you know, why? Why are you doing
what you're doing?
Hilary Jackendoff (36:31):
At work, because I cannot have external
authority and must work formyself. No, because, you know,
my mission in life is to helpmore people help as many people
as possible, realize that peaceis available to them realize
(36:53):
that joy is available to them,that ease is available to them.
And that self love and selfacceptance have to exist, like
you have to develop into, intoyourself and embrace the
totality of who you areincluding your shadow. And, and
(37:17):
you have to show up inauthenticity. So that you can
step fully into your purpose andbe of service in this world and
support people in transformingand moving towards peace, joy
and ease in your own way. Andthat's what I want to
facilitate. I just want to bringas many people as possible into
(37:41):
self acceptance, self love, sothat they can step into
authenticity, purpose and powerand bring about more joy, ease
and peace.
Chad Woodford (37:49):
Wow, amazing.
Amazing. Yeah. Yeah, I love it.
I love it. You know, it's, it's,I love it too. Because, as I
think, you know, a big part ofthe kind of purpose of this
podcast and the theme of thepodcast is, is exploring
spirituality from, you know,more of a kind of grounded and,
(38:13):
and level headed perspective andtrying to answer the question,
you know, how do we make thespiritual practices more
accessible to people? And how dowe help more people to become
more aware and to expandconsciousness, but also just to
feel better, and to feel theirfeelings and to get in touch
(38:34):
with, you know, a deeper part ofthemselves, with their intuition
and, and through that process toreally become more whole people
so that we can, you know, Ithink, change the world is how I
feel about the power of thesepractices. So, so I like this,
because for me, it's great,because it's an accessible entry
point for people. And I thinkthey can kind of wrap their
(38:58):
heads around it, it doesn'tsound so I mean, you can, you
know, you can talk about it in away, like, we have been a little
bit that, you know, you'reyou're accessing these other
states of consciousness, but,you know, you can talk about it
in a way where it's just helpingyou rest, you know, and it can
be almost like a gateway intoother things, you know, so, so I
just love that. Because, youknow, my mission too is to, to
(39:20):
help people to do all the thingsyou're talking about to relax,
feel better and expandconsciousness because I feel
like, I feel like any of theproblems you look at in our
world right now, you know, ifyou trace the root cause of it
back far enough, I think it iswhat we've been talking about.
It's the fact that people arenot aware, not self aware.
(39:43):
They're in a dense state ofconsciousness and they're, you
know, they're, they're stressedout, they're anxious, they're,
you know, they're too easilysort of falling into these
conditioned ways of thinking andbeing right so, so yeah, I guess
what I'm what I'm trying to sayis that you have a nidra is such
a Simple was so powerful andeffective way for people to kind
(40:04):
of get into the spiritual pathin a sense, would you say?
Hilary Jackendoff (40:08):
Yeah, it's Yeah, I would. And it's, it's,
there's, it has so much utility,like I am, I call myself, I call
myself, I call myself a mysticalpragmatist, like that is, like I
want to offer pragmatic tools,pragmatic tools that like serve
(40:30):
a real function in daily lifeand enter, accessible, easy,
enjoyable, and createtransformation that ripples into
every layer of your being, youknow, and it's like, it's not
complicated. If you just showup, and you lie down, and you
(40:52):
and that's the only 20 minutesthat you take for yourself all
day. Perfect, and you just had alittle bit of a rest, you just
shut your eyes, like gave yoursenses a break, gave your eyes a
break from screens, softenedyour muscles, like freed up a
little bit of energy forcognitive function, like by
releasing the tension from yourbody, like, you know, just that
(41:15):
just 20 minutes lying down,listening to a guided meditation
to just put you into a slightlymore relaxed state. It's going
to transform the rest of yourday. You do that every day, drop
into the deeper layersexperience, the healing that it
creates, you know, on ournervous system level, experience
(41:36):
the benefits for sleep, like andthen the spiritual benefits.
It's like it has so muchutility.
Chad Woodford (41:44):
Yeah, yeah. It's beautiful. Well, we spent we
spent a good chunk of timetalking about yoga nidra that's
how that's how rich and andfascinating. This this
practices. It's pretty great.
(42:27):
Yeah, so you and I have bothspent time living in an ashram
studying in ashrams. You were inNew Zealand, and then I think
you were in India, right? Isthere anything else about ashram
life that we should talk about?
I mean, there's it's such a richtopic, I guess. But it sounds
like Oh, I think I was, I mean,I saw I just happen to see on
your website that, you know, youtalk about his experience, but
(42:48):
then you kind of talk about howyou moved away from that. And
you realize maybe that, youknow, that the practicing with a
quote, unquote, Guru is maybenot the way for you are the wave
for everyone. You know, Ithought that was interesting,
because I had a similarexperience.
Hilary Jackendoff (43:05):
Yeah, yeah.
So I, after that firstexperience in New Zealand, it
led me to the better part of adecade, committed to this this
traditional guru based lineage,the Bihar School of yoga,
Satyananda yoga. After theashram, in New Zealand time, I
went the following year toIndia. And honestly, I had like
(43:25):
the most profound spiritualexperience, one of the most
profound spiritual experiencesthat I've had in my life meeting
Swami Satyananda, the lineagehead of, of the Bihar School of
yoga. And he was, it was a yearbefore he passed, and meeting
him was just like, to, the onlyway that I can describe it is
(43:50):
heart opening. But that doesn'tmean like, that people say that
all the time. You know, like, itdoesn't. I can't fully express
what it was, it was, you know,like the mystical experiences,
we can't really put names tothem, we can't really put words
to them necessarily. So it wasit was really, really profound.
(44:15):
And it led me to the realizationthat I had to go deeper into
this lineage. And then I wentand spent two years living at an
ashram in Australia followingthat, and that's where I did my
my teacher training.
Chad Woodford (44:35):
So yeah, so what was it about about his his
presence in particular, was itjust like, who was he radiating
and kind of this? This kind ofpresent like, what was it about
him?
Hilary Jackendoff (44:48):
He was, God.
It sounds so stupid. He was purelove and light. He was pure love
and light. And, you know, histeachings in the earlier years
and because he had been teachingand you know, sort of leading
and creating this spiritualcommunity for since the 1960s.
(45:08):
After he left his ashram, SwamiShivananda ashram in Rishikesh.
And he went off to start this,this particular school of yoga.
And his, the way that hepresented in earlier years, his
teachings, His books, His setsongs, it was very masculine, it
(45:29):
was very, you know, to poskittfocused very hard line like
yogic austerity, like, hard linestuff, right? very dogmatic. And
then, as he moved through life,in his 70s, and in his 80s, his
(45:50):
focus turned entirely to bhakti.
And his It was as though like,you know, it was like, it took
him decades to get to the heart.
And, and I don't know, right,like, I didn't know him in the
(46:12):
70s in the 80s. Like, I didn'tknow him then but his presence
was just so pure, and the levelof depths with which he saw each
person in the room, like, youknow, the phrase art, like, you
(46:35):
know, how I had Darshan. Like,yeah, it was like, it was being
seen by, by it was like, beingseen by the Divine, like, it was
like, he was embodying divinity,and then sending that out to
every single person that, youknow, stood up to introduce
(46:58):
themselves in turn. And it wasit was just beautiful. And it
was like, yeah, yeah. And thatwas that was when I was like,
okay, whatever this is, this iswhat I want more of. Yeah. And
Chad Woodford (47:19):
yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah. You know, it
took me decades to get to theheart too and I'm not even sure
I'm there yet. But, but yeah, Imean, it it reminds me of what
you're describing reminds me alittle bit of, you know, the
stories you hear about NeemKaroli Baba, Ram Dass's is guru,
and even toward towards the endRam Das. There's this great book
(47:42):
by Pete Holmes. Comedy Sex God.
Where he Yeah, you know, yeah.
And yeah, the way he describeshis time with Ram Dass sounds
like what you're talking aboutthis just you're in this field
of like, pure love, and it'sjust like your marinating in it
almost. So yeah, that's, that'sgood. And why Yeah. So that,
(48:02):
would that experience, whywouldn't you go into it? more
deeply? Yeah, yeah. So yeah. Sothen you went and studied in
Australia. And so would you saythat that that training or that
experience was primarily bhaktifocused then?
Hilary Jackendoff (48:18):
No, that was the full yogic tree. It was a it
was a two year teacher training.
That you know, it was a yogateacher training. And we, the
curriculum was really wideranging. So we studied bhakti
yoga, we studied Yanni yoga, westudied Karma Yoga, we studied
the Gita, we studied the sutraslike everything plus asana,
(48:41):
pranayama, Mudra, Bonda, yoga,Nidra 1000, meditation
techniques, not 1000 You know,so and we, over the course of
two years like went pretty deepthrough our own personal sadhana
and then in these intensivesthese residential intensives but
(49:06):
I lived at the ashram throughthe two years like as a resident
outside of the residentialportion of the training. So I
was getting like, you know, thedeeper studying the deeper
teachings with with seniorteachers. I was running the the
fire ceremonies the the havensevery week. I was getting like
(49:26):
the real ashram training wherelike, you know, like, you hear
over the loudspeaker, like,someone didn't show up to teach
their class and you're in youroffice, and then you're like,
Oh, I hope they don't find me. Idon't feel like teaching and
then literally, someone comes toyour door and it's like, you you
(49:48):
need to go and teach right now.
There's 30 visitors waiting inthe sadhana Hall and you're
teaching right now, and you justlike run across the campus. So
Like, just sit down and holdspace and just like shift gears
immediately. And just like that,that experience of like always
being thrown into the deep endalways being pushed outside of
(50:10):
your comfort zone. Like theashram life is very trial by
fire. And it's also like livinginside of a pressure cooker.
Like having all of your thing,all of your issues triggered,
because you're living incommunity with you get triggered
(50:30):
when you live in communitiesanyway. But then you're also
having these these sort ofplayful teachers that are like,
kind of poking at you a littlebit and testing you a little
bit. It's like, oh, well, shedoesn't want to go to the farm.
She doesn't want to do manuallabor. So let's put her on
manual labor every day thisweek,
Chad Woodford (50:52):
and see how you just gotta be my awesome
experience to a tee. Yeah,yeah. Yeah, man. It was great. I
love Yeah, yeah. For me, livingat the ashram was one of the
hardest things I ever did. Butit was so good for my ego, and
so good for my confidence andeverything. Because like what
you're talking about, yeah. Sooften to there, you're asked to
(51:12):
spontaneously, you know, step upor step into a role. And it
really is a beautiful reminderof how you can, you don't have
to be so prepared, you don'thave to be, you know, quote,
unquote, ready, you just, if youjust do the thing, it'll flow
out of you, you know, in mostcases, and that's a great
(51:34):
experience to have. And thenyeah, just Yeah, running into
all these ego traps and theLSVT. Like you're saying, living
in community where, like, forme, my expectation was that
people would be like, Oh, well,there'll be less triggers,
because people will be, youknow, committed to treating
people or whatever. I don'tknow. And so yeah. So, yeah.
Hilary Jackendoff (52:03):
Oh, my God, it was like, you know, what, the
lesson that I learned, I learneda lot of lessons and like, it is
a fine line between sort ofcultures, like it's a fine line
in Ashram life between sort ofgently kind of poking at
(52:24):
people's egos and pushing themoutside of their comfort zone,
maybe a little more than they'dlike, maybe a little harder than
they'd like. And it's a fineline between that and cultures
of abuse. Yeah, it's, you know,it's, and for people who have a
history of mental, mental healthissues, or a history of, you
(52:46):
know, being in abusiverelationships, like ashram life
is gonna be, it might not becorrect, like, but if you're
showing up,
Chad Woodford (52:58):
I was gonna say, I think part of what I
experienced anyways, was, Ithink so often, the guru or the
or the head of the ashram or theteachers. I think they think
that the practices and thelifestyle are a panacea, like
it's a solution for anything,but I don't think it is, I think
you're saying, yeah, what you'resaying could be mental illness,
or it could be a lot of thingsthat you should go somewhere
(53:19):
else to deal with.
Hilary Jackendoff (53:21):
And we at the ashram, where I was like, it
was, God, I could talk aboutthis all day, there's so much
there. But we were generallypretty careful around who we
allowed to stay long term asresidents and there was an
application process and a mentalhealth screening and a physical
health screening and the ashramresidents were aware of the
(53:45):
people that were coming in tojoin as residents and were aware
of their medical health history.
You know, and like, there wereagreements in place where if
someone came in on medication,they had to agree to remain on
medication. So like, there wasthere were there were systems in
place at this particular ashramto kind of guard against
environments that wouldn't behealthy or safe for people. But
(54:10):
then the people that were sortof healthy and we kind of came
in, you know, pretty okay, kindof got poked the most, so it
was, yeah. But I have so muchfun. Like, it was so hard, but
it was also the most fun I thinkI've ever had in my life. Like,
(54:31):
it was joy and play, and like,you know, my teachers were my
friends. And it was really, we,you know, and it wasn't serious.
Like, there was some kind of oldheads that were kinda a little
stodgy sometimes and kind ofuptight about the way rituals
(54:51):
were done and like, would kindof pull you up on everything.
But in general Like we it wasreally, it was beautiful. I had
an incredible experience.
Chad Woodford (55:06):
You know, the fact that they did all the
screening was sounds nicebecause the ashram I lived at
didn't screen as far as I wasaware, but I've been part of,
you know, plant medicine andayahuasca communities where they
do screen so I can see wherethat's a real benefit. And I
wonder if maybe that would havehelped us. But yeah, in terms of
what you're talking about, I'mreminded of when I was at the
(55:27):
ashram that I had thisexperience where I was really
spinning out, like, I was reallysort of judging everybody who
was there. And I was, I wasthinking, like, Oh, nobody here
is really practicing, or nobodyhere is really like benefiting
from the practice. And all thesestories, I was telling myself
and, and so I eventually, thiswoman, one of my friends, one of
the teachers pulled me aside atone point and said, you know,
(55:50):
what's going on with you? Youseem, you know, totally
distraught, you know, and I waslike, Well, I told her, you
know, what I was thinking, she'slike, you know, people who are
here, like, they need to behere, because they have all
these issues. You know, it's nota place for people who are like,
already enlightened orsomething. And I was like, Oh, I
had my, like, Shutter Islandmoment where I was like, oh,
(56:11):
like, I'm, I'm the one with theissues, you know.
Hilary Jackendoff (56:18):
Man, I, I had, I was always triggered, I
was always head tripping. And,you know, it was, it was really
hard. I remember the woman thatran the ashram or founded the
ashram. She said that, or one ofthe senior residents, I don't
(56:40):
remember exactly who it was,almost 10 years ago. She said
that the ashram is is a placefor the best and the brightest
and the broken, and thedestitute. And I was like, huh,
yeah. Very day to day, I mean,honestly, like, the number one
(57:05):
lesson that I learned, was howto hold space for myself,
because nobody asked how you'redoing. Nobody said, Do you need
a hug? And no one said, youknow, like, you look emotional.
You look, you've been eatinglunch every day alone for a week
now, nobody asked anything. Youlearned how to keep your own
(57:25):
counsel, and you learned how todeal with your shit. Wow, that
was really powerful. Was that?
Chad Woodford (57:33):
What a great asset to have. What a powerful
thing to have your back pocket?
You know?
Hilary Jackendoff (57:39):
100% like I cannot. I'm so grateful to have
learned that lesson. Like,
Chad Woodford (57:45):
yeah, yeah, it was. Well, yeah.
Hilary Jackendoff (57:50):
It was. It was transformative. I mean, you
just learned that like, the theups and downs, like when you
were in sort of a level moment,you know, on the Human Design
front, like I was amplifyingeveryone's emotions all the
time. That's now that Iunderstand that was what was
happening. So I was just alwaysriding these waves. And I would
(58:11):
be like, tripping out, like,ready to like, run screaming
from the gate. Like, and thenwhen I would have moments where
I felt kind of level, I waslike, Oh, this is good. This is
I'm gonna go up, I'm gonna godown. And I'll come back to
this, this midpoint, at somepoint. And that's going to be
this is just the way life is.
Chad Woodford (58:32):
Yeah, kind of gives you it gives you what
Krishna gave Arjuna in theBhagavad Gita in a sense, which
is the feeling that noexperience is too big for you to
handle, you know, you start tohave that experience. Yeah,
yeah. No. Because you know, forme, like, too many times I had
my bags packed and I was readyto go, you know? And it was like
(58:54):
now that I've now that Isurvived that experience, and I
lived in kind of like a concretecell with a tiny window and no
heat. You know, I can almostlive anywhere now. You know,
nothing is like that bad really.
Compared to
Hilary Jackendoff (59:09):
Wow, we had a little bit more Creature
Comforts in Australia. But Imean, it wasn't a concrete cell
like it was it was definitely alittle more vibey than that but
no heat. Like no airconditioning, like I used to
sleep in the summer, it would belike 115 degrees. And I would
sleep with like, I would sleeplike naked with a wet dhoti over
(59:31):
me, but in the middle of thenight, it would dry and then I
would have to go wet it again. Iwould have to go like walk
downstairs outside to thebathroom and re soak the dhoti
and you know, around thepoisonous spiders on the way
like literally in the bathroom.
redback spiders eating wholelizards. Yeah, there was some
(59:54):
hardcore or hardcore lifestyle.
They're
Chad Woodford (01:00:04):
the things I do to bring these beautiful
practices that practices back tothe people really don't know, do
the price we paid? Well, I mean,I'm sure we can get like you
said we could talk about ashramlife for hours. But there's so
much we could talk about. Wecould talk about mantra, we
could talk about, I mean, wehaven't even touched on human
(01:00:26):
design, for example. I know.
What I'm doing is I'm kind ofwinding down here. So just yeah,
just to tee up things foranother time, perhaps, but we're
gonna do Yeah, yeah, we can havewe can have a part two. Yeah.
Cuz I also, you know, I thinkit's interesting. We're both
sort of I'm from New York. I'mfrom New Jersey. We live in Los
Angeles. That's a whole othertopic we could talk about. Oh,
(01:00:50):
my gosh. But yeah. But yeah, Ithink we've covered enough
ground today. And I just wantedto mention a couple of things.
In terms of how to find your,your stuff, you're at
meditationchick.com. Right. Andyou have some beautiful yoga
nidra recordings on InsightTimer, so you can go there to
check those out. And then interms of what's coming up for
(01:01:12):
you, you've got Mexico retreathappening in late March. And
like we said earlier, you're thethe ninja training is happening
in the spring. And anything elseI missed?
Hilary Jackendoff (01:01:26):
Now, I think the retreat in Mexico, just in
case anybody is interested. Itis a yoga nidra and human design
retreat. So it's about weaving,weaving pragmatic strategies for
energy management andcultivating self acceptance and
self love through human design.
With deep subconscious workthrough yoga nidra to transform
(01:01:49):
beliefs and patterns and yeah,and it's gonna be incredible
jungle ocean. Beautiful,beautiful community it's just
north of Sayulita in San Pancho,so you can actually walk on the
beach to Sayulita. It's about a20–30 minute walk.
Chad Woodford (01:02:11):
Yeah, wow. That's I love that area. I've done I've
done a yoga retreat and PuertaVillarta and spent some time
it's lately to last year, if yougo to the retreat, and you go to
Sayulita, you have to go toMary's tacos in Sayulita. Okay.
All right. Noted. That soundsamazing. So, so yeah, so Well,
(01:02:32):
thanks for doing this. Hilary.
It was so much fun.
Hilary Jackendoff (01:02:36):
Thank you for having me Chad. I am excited for
our next conversation and Imean, appreciate appreciate the
opportunity to nerd out. Andyeah, share these these tools
and teachings. Thanks, Chad. Allright, thanks.
My mission in life is to help more people help
(00:06):
as many people as possiblerealize that peace is available
to them, realize that joy isavailable to them, that ease is
available to them, and that selflove and self acceptance have to
exist. Like you have to developinto, into yourself and embrace
(00:28):
the totality of who you are,including your shadow. And, and
you have to show up inauthenticity so that you can
step fully into your purpose andbe of service in this world and
support people in transformingand moving towards peace, joy
and ease in your own way. Iwould say that I'm using it as I
(00:54):
would say I'm using it as afoundational tool for self
inquiry and a path to selfacceptance and self love.
Chad Woodford (01:20):
Welcome to Spiritual But Not Ridiculous, a
podcast that explores the worldof spirituality from a grounded
and clear-eyed perspective. I'myour host Jayadev, a yoga
teacher, Vedic astrologer,attorney, and technologist.
(01:51):
On this episode, I'm talking toHilary Jackendoff, a yoga nidra
and meditation teacher andtrainer and human design coach.
She's a powerful, heart-centeredwoman, as you'll see. To me,
Hilary is the ideal teacher,wise yet humble, evolved yet
grounded, knowledgeable yethilarious. In this episode, we
(02:14):
talk about yoga nidra, states ofconsciousness, how Hilary came
to the spiritual path, theimportance of rest, making
spiritual practices accessible,ashram life, and being seen by
the Divine. We barely scratchedthe surface of what we wanted to
talk about. So look for part twocoming very soon, perhaps even
(02:35):
in the coming weeks. And a quicknote on the audio quality in
this episode, you know, I takegreat pride in the audio quality
of my podcast. Andunfortunately, this time, even
though I used the same setupthey always use for remote
interviews. Somehow my mic wastoo hot. So my audio, like my
(02:57):
side of the channel, will sounda little clipped, or a little
muffled in places, a littlecompressed because of that. So
my apologies, thank you forbearing with me, as I continue
to learn how to podcast.
Apparently even after years ofdoing it, you still never stop
learning how to podcast.
Alright, so here's myconversation with Hilary.
(03:25):
Okay, so I'm here with HilaryJackendoff, who is a yoga nidra
and meditation teacher based inLos Angeles, and also kind of
weaves them through all ourofferings, human design, which
we'll probably talk about aswell. And yeah, we're sort of
neighbors here in Los Angeles.
So welcome to the podcast,Hilary.
Hilary Jackendoff (03:43):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really
excited for for our chat today.
Chad Woodford (03:49):
Yeah, yeah, I think you and I have a lot in
common, even though we sort ofcome from different. There's
sort of some commonalities, butthere's also a lot of
differences in terms of whatwe're offering. So I like the
overlap, the Venn diagram, orwhatever you want to say.
Hilary Jackendoff (04:04):
We have many, many common threads in our
tapestry.
Chad Woodford (04:09):
Yes, so. So I wanted to start by just talking
a little bit about maybe we'llstart with yoga nidra. Because I
feel like it's something that alot of people are familiar with,
but also a lot of people are notfamiliar with. And it seems like
it's what would you say it's oneof your primary offerings?
Hilary Jackendoff (04:27):
Yeah, I would say you're gonna do a certainly
one of my primary offerings andrunning yoga nidra teacher
trainings is a big part of ofwhat I do. And it's definitely
what I'm, it sounds so annoyingto say like what I'm most known
for, but I've been reallycommitted to sharing this
practice for a little over adecade now. And talking about it
(04:52):
obsessively since 2008. So I'vedefinitely consistently been
spreading the word on yoga nidraas, as a powerful tool to really
address like all the pain pointsthat we're facing as, as human
beings in the modern world.
Chad Woodford (05:11):
It's a beautiful practice. I've experienced that
a little bit myself. And I thinkyou said at one point when we
were talking before that it'slike, I think you feel like it's
the ultimate form of yoga,perhaps. But for people who
aren't familiar with it, can youjust say a little bit about what
it is or where it comes from?
Hilary Jackendoff (05:28):
Yeah, absolutely. So the way I sort of
present it to folks who are, youknow, coming to it fresh. It's,
it's a guided meditationpractice yoga, "Nidra"
translates to yogic sleep. Soit's about learning how to,
actually, this isn't a beginnerspresentation of it at all. Yeah,
(05:53):
let's let's wander back. It's abeginner friendly, guided
meditation that that helps youlearn how to let go. That's
that's sort of how I express itin a very simple way. And then,
you know, when when folks arelike, is that sounds great. Is
it yoga, like, do I have to doexercises and be flexible? You
(06:16):
know, because that's, it blowsmy mind. Like, that's still the
first thing that people say. Soit's definitely not fully in,
you know, the sort of secularlandscape yet, but it's
definitely coming. So So Ialways try to make it clear that
this is yoga, right? This is ayogic practice. This is a
practice that builds awareness,that expands consciousness. But
(06:42):
there is no movement involvedwhatsoever. So you practice from
lying down yoga nidra, as I sortof mentioned a moment ago is
yogic sleep, so sleep withawareness. So in addition to it
being a meditation technique,and there are many, many sort of
versions of yoga nidra, manydifferent techniques that that
(07:04):
fall under sort of the umbrellaterm of yoga nidra. In addition
to it being a meditationtechnique, it's also a state of
consciousness. So it's the stateof consciousness. Whereby your
body and your mind are asleep,you are likely in delta
brainwaves, but awareness isfunctioning. So it sort of gives
(07:29):
you this embodied experience ofpure awareness, pure
consciousness, beyond thoughtbeyond the body, beyond the mind
beyond this, the ego, right, andlets you drop into this pure
place of, of knowing who we arebeyond.
Chad Woodford (07:46):
Wow, that's really beautiful. Yeah, I think,
you know, as you're talking toyou, what I'm thinking about is
one challenge that I think a lotof us yoga teachers have who are
trying to teach a style of yogathat's not Asana, you know, per
se, the challenge we have isthat it's this educational
process where we have to kindof, you know, explain to people
(08:06):
basically that, that yoga is somuch broader than just
stretching or just, you know,doing warrior pose or whatever.
Right. So I think it's, it'sbeautiful, because it helps
people to understand that yogais what you were saying earlier,
really, it's about it's any kindof practice, really, that is
helping you to, to expandconsciousness or to be more
(08:28):
aware, you know, to kind of workwith that more subtle energy in
the body, right?
Hilary Jackendoff (08:33):
Yeah, absolutely. Yoga Nidra is a, it
can be considered a Tantricpractice. And, you know, tantra,
there's a lot of differentdefinitions for the word Tantra.
But one of them is to expand,right to expand consciousness.
(08:54):
And yoga nidra very much expandsour understanding of what
consciousness is. And I mean,the coolest thing about it is
there's no barrier to entry. Solike if someone has never
meditated before in their life,and they come to, for example, a
group yoga nidra practice, andthey're lying down nice and cozy
(09:15):
next to someone who's had adaily practice for decades.
There's no sort of, like, theperson who's never meditated
before it can go as deep ordeeper than the person who has
been meditating every day for 20years. Because it's not
dependent on gray matter in thebrain to access the state of
(09:37):
consciousness. It's simplydependent on your ability to
feel safe in your body and yourability to trust that you're
safe to let go.
Chad Woodford (09:46):
Yeah, that's, that's powerful. I mean, it's
great because it's soaccessible, like you're saying,
you can just, you know, forpeople who maybe are intimidated
by Yoga, you can just show upand lie down on the floor, and
that's, you know, what's moreaccessible than that? Really?
Hilary Jackendoff (09:59):
No, I'm accessible, like, you know, and
you don't even have to lie down,like if lying down is
uncomfortable, you can sit up,you can lie on your side, like
you can do whatever you want,you know, and you just allow
yourself guided and practicethis, you know, this, this
attitude or you connect to thisattitude of deep receptivity and
(10:20):
allow yourself to simplysurrender to this experience of
non doing. And, yeah, you can'tbeat it. I don't want to sound
like, Well,
Chad Woodford (10:33):
no, I think you're right. I think you're
right. Yeah. I mean, so that,you know, I think a lot of my
listeners are into the more sortof, like nuanced, you know,
esoteric. Philosophy and thatkind of thing, and yoga, so
maybe we can talk for a secondabout the different states of
consciousness, right. Sothere's, there's sort of four
states, right? There's sort of,there's a waking, sleeping as we
(10:57):
would normally think about it,and dreaming. And then there's
the fourth state Turiya state,right? It's so are we talking
about Turiya state in Nidra?
Hilary Jackendoff (11:08):
Yeah, effectively, I mean, that's,
it's, it's that state beyondwaking, dreaming, and sleeping,
that state of awareness issleep. And that's, that's the
state of consciousness that isyoga nidra. And it's, it's kind
of, you can understand it. I'malways hesitant to say like,
(11:32):
it's enlightenment, right. Butit's, there are there are levels
of enlightenment not to do he'slove to break everything down
into like categories, and like,level one, like the tangibly add
a name, we're going toeverything. We just name it and
claim it. But it's, it gives youa taste of enlightenment, right
(11:55):
like enlightenment. All themystical traditions characterize
enlightenment, as this state ofknowing, right? This
indescribable state, knowingthat is, is that it doesn't last
very long. It's you can't reallyspeak about it in words, you
only know that you'veexperienced it. Typically, after
(12:16):
it's occurred for most folks.
Every time you experience it,you sort of deepen your
connection to it. And it informsthe way you show up and all of
the other states ofconsciousness that you
experience in daily life. Yeah,so like this little touch in to
this mystical experience ofenlightenment, this ineffable
(12:40):
experience of knowing that thereis awareness, there is
consciousness beyond the formbeyond the thought stream, and
you touch into that space, andthen you go back to your daily
life after you know, a 2030minute yoga nidra practice. And
it just changes you just like,it just you just show up to life
(13:03):
with a little bit more lightnesswith a little bit more ease,
because you're not gripping sohard to the attachment to the
ego to the self to yourpreferences to you know, it
helps you to overcome theclashes, those different ways
that we are as human beings.
Chad Woodford (13:23):
Yeah. So that's so well said. Thank you for
that. And I think, I think interms of the benefits you're
talking about, you're like ashining example of that. Right?
You're, you're like one of themost joyful people I know. So
the proof is in the Hilary.
Hilary Jackendoff (13:38):
Yeah. I mean, it's been my primary practice
for 15 since 2008. And that wasreally kind of what kicked off
for me it was through this firstexperience of yoga nidra.
Chad Woodford (13:53):
Yeah, yeah. Well, let's talk about that. Then. I
mean, I'm curious to hear alittle bit about your story. You
know, how you got started. Iknow you say, you're on your
website. You know, you you sortof encountered this this place
in New Zealand, right. It wasthe first experience and then
kind of went from there. So youwant to talk about that a little
bit?
Hilary Jackendoff (14:10):
Yeah, it was a nice segue. We just did that
was smooth. So I mean, okay, soit goes back. I don't want to
like give my whole life storybut, but I kind of always had
like, mystical leanings, like asa child, and very much had like
(14:32):
devotional leanings, as well. AsI found out later, much later in
life. My mom told me that, thatI used to when I was old, when
we would walk my brother toschool, Catholic school, and we
would cross the street and Iwould run across the street and
as soon as I got to the otherside, I would run to the rectory
(14:53):
lawn and prostrate myself infront of the Virgin Mary. Oh,
wow. Yeah. And then when I wasabout five or six, I I created a
prayer shrine like a prayercorner in my room, and had like
my rosaries, and my scapular,and my Bibles and my, my statues
of Mary and Jesus. So I wasraised Catholic and Jewish, and
(15:14):
I sort of developed apluralistic approach to
spirituality. I'm pretty young,because of that, sort of
multicultural, multimulticultural, like, because of
those different religiousbackgrounds that I was exposed
to. Then in college, I startedstudying different religious
(15:40):
traditions and kind of deepen myconnection to that, you know,
sort of many paths up themountain approach, studying
Taoism and Buddhism, and, youknow, studying mysticism, the
philosophy and mysticism. Andthen after college, I started
practicing meditation and aBuddhist community in
(16:02):
Philadelphia, and Kadampacommunity. And the practices
that I was nothing against thesepractices, they're beautiful.
For so many people who are atthe right stage to receive them,
(16:22):
sure, of a particular quality ofawareness have a particular kind
of mind. There's so manymeditation practices, and that's
the beauty of it, like we, noteverything has to be for
everyone. So suffice it to say,the Kadampa Buddhist practices
were not for me, it was brutal.
Me, like, sitting in like a poolof my own mental mess every time
(16:46):
and I know, that's normal for alot of meditation practices, for
people to kind of have toovercome this hurdle. But I was
dealing with a lot of anxiety atthe time, and did not support
me. And then it was I wastraveling,
Chad Woodford (17:05):
was it too? Was it too austere? Or too, like,
you know, almost too simple? Orwhat was the
Hilary Jackendoff (17:11):
there was minimal guidance, the sets were
long, so the sets were usuallyan hour. And the guidance was
pretty much restricted toinhaling white light and
exhaling black smoke. And, youknow, I mean, there was some
more to but but that was it, asI understand now, and as I
(17:34):
understood, like, you know, whenI started my meditation teacher
training, the practices itdidn't, they didn't properly
internalize me. So I wasn't inthe parasympathetic nervous
system. During the, like, Iwasn't drawn in. So I was in
this very, you know, consciousmind very cognitive state of
(17:57):
being I was in. I wasn't in thestate to drop into meditation.
So I wasn't guided in.
Chad Woodford (18:07):
Or sounds like you were you were too aware of
how much you were thinking in away. And there was no, there was
no technique to get you out ofthat, right. There's a great,
you probably know, this quote isa great quote from I think it's
a Zen tradition, where they say,when you first start meditating,
it feels like sticking your headin a garbage can. It's like
(18:32):
that.
Hilary Jackendoff (18:33):
It did, it really did. And for those folks
that want to just keep stickingtheir head in the garbage can
and wait for it to get better.
Fantastic. But, you know, I was21 years old, and that was not
working for me. I was trying,you know, I was I was showing up
Chad Woodford (18:54):
yeah but, but that wasn't enough.
Hilary Jackendoff (18:57):
Yeah. And, and I had started practicing
yoga, not long after, and that'sthat's um, yeah, that's that's a
maybe a different story for adifferent time. How is that
story for now? I don't know.
Well,
Chad Woodford (19:15):
I guess you know, I mean, tell tell any story you
want but
Hilary Jackendoff (19:23):
you know, I was sitting on a flight to Los
Angeles and ended up sittingnext to a a well regarded as it
turned out, yoga teacher seemsso peaceful and like so calm,
and it turned out later, youknow, like many of the people in
yogic positions of leadership,he was also a sexual predator.
(19:44):
And he wasn't a teacher for me,at any point, but he asked me
into the path. And he said,like, you're right for yoga, and
I was like, oh, right for yoga.
Chad Woodford (20:03):
That's a strange way to put it anyways. Yeah,
Hilary Jackendoff (20:05):
yeah, that's what he said. He probably says
it to every pretty young girl.
Chad Woodford (20:10):
Although, you know, it does conjure up what
does that mantra is? Yeah, it'sthe mantra where the talks
about, you know, you reach apoint where your, your, your
mental state or your state ofyoga is so rife that it's like,
it's like a creeper. Vegetable,who just falls gently off of the
(20:33):
vine or whatever it was, thatwas
Hilary Jackendoff (20:36):
Maha Mrityunjaya mantra? Yah, yah,
Chad Woodford (20:38):
yah, yah, yah, was a ripeness reference, I
guess,
Hilary Jackendoff (20:45):
bring from the cucumber from the vine. I
thought that was a bit well, wecan get into the esoterics of
mantra another time. But anyway,I started practicing yoga. And
then I ended up traveling to NewZealand with my boyfriend at the
time. And I was basically tryingto break up with him. And so
(21:11):
failed on a pretty big hike thatwe were supposed to do together.
Because the notion of like,five, six nights, camping and
hiking and carrying packs anddoing food and like when we were
like, on the verge of breakingup, sounded like a hellscape. My
(21:31):
husband, you know, and we're noton the verge of break up like
that. It's a challenge to dothat to a relationship. And so I
basically was like, Hey, I'm notgonna go on this hike, like,
let's take a break. And I'mgonna go to this Ashram, I'm
gonna go to this yoga retreatinstead, and do a little bit of,
you know, self inquiry, really,and kind of figure out where I'm
(21:54):
at. And then I rocked out tothis ashram in New Zealand. And
it was quite clear that I wasthis was not like a yoga
retreat. This was not somethinglike that. It was something I
did not yet understand.
Chad Woodford (22:12):
Is hard work or a real traditional Asana?
Hilary Jackendoff (22:16):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I rolled up on aFriday. And they were doing a
havan, like, a Maha Mrityunjaya,havan outside. And everybody's
in their robes and their shavedheads and their Tilak. And, you
know, the whole whole nine yardslike that was my entry.
Chad Woodford (22:36):
For my audiene who's not familiar, a havan is a
fire ceremony? Yes.
Hilary Jackendoff (22:40):
Yeah. So it was celebrating the founder of
the ashram 25th anniversary,Swami. So the 25th anniversary,
taking prednisone Yes. And itwas quite an experience. And I
was like, What did I where am I?
What is?
Chad Woodford (22:58):
Right? So you were hesitant. I mean, you
weren't like, this is great.
You're kind of hesitant,
Hilary Jackendoff (23:03):
super hesitant. And then the, you
know, like learning schedule ofthe of the week. It's like,
you'll be doing hours of karmayoga, you'll be chopping wood,
you'll be sweeping the floors,you'll be cleaning the rooms,
you'll be weeding the garden,the yoga action. And I was like,
(23:24):
okay, so I paid to work. Got it.
Then I did yoga nidra. And I waslike, This is it.
Chad Woodford (23:31):
So that was that was the hook. And that was
Hilary Jackendoff (23:35):
I didn't know I was like I am about this. This
is
Chad Woodford (23:40):
like right at first right away. First of all,
Hilary Jackendoff (23:43):
this morning of the second, like the first
morning that I was there. Irolled that on a Friday. And
that are 12 o'clock, I shouldsay on Saturday, yoga nidra.
That was
Chad Woodford (23:55):
powerful. So maybe we should pause for a
second and just clarify. Soearlier you were saying that
(24:15):
it's it's yogic sleep, butthere's different experiences of
what we might call sleep, rightand yoga nidra. So, sometimes
you're literally maybe justasleep, but sometimes you're
more in this turiya state wewere talking about. So just for
the listener who hasn'texperienced this, like, whatever
your experience is, is okay.
But, you know, in the ideal inthe ideal sort of experience of
(24:37):
yoga nidra Are you kind ofaware, you know, are you what is
the sort of the interior statelike?
Hilary Jackendoff (24:48):
Well, I would hesitate to say the ideal state
because it's all perfect, right,Hillary? No, way you can fuck it
up man. No way. It iseffortlessness embodied, um, you
(25:09):
know, over like, here's thething, if you like yoga nidra,
is that you're playing the longgame, you're playing the long
game. It's the variety ofexperiences that you'll have in
practice are infinite, like Icannot possibly begin to address
(25:30):
here, the range of things thatwill come up the range of
experiences on every level ofyour being mental, physical,
emotional, you know, spiritualpsychic, every single level of
your being will be affected, andyou will have transformative
experiences. But ultimately, thethe experiences don't matter.
(25:52):
Right? We know that. In theyogic tradition, we are not
against thing, we are justsimply open to receive
Chad Woodford (26:03):
practicing, because we're not attached or
not attached to any outcomes.
We're not attached to having acertain experience. Yeah,
Hilary Jackendoff (26:08):
yeah, presumably. Um, so but with yoga
nidra. Like, that's, that's thething like we are, we're letting
go of expectation. And we'reallowing our experience to
unfold over time, we're allowingour relationship to the practice
our relationship to the state ofbeing to reveal itself to us.
(26:29):
And, you know, the best thingabout, well, one of the best
things about yoga nidra is thefact that for so many people,
meditation is hard. So manypeople meditation, yes, it's
true. It's, it's a should, it'ssomething that they doctor told
(26:53):
them to meditate because oftheir blood pressure, or, you
know, their therapist told themthat they need to meditate to
regulate their emotions, likethey know that they need to do
it. They know that it's good forthem, but they don't want to
because it's hard. And becausemost of the time, when people
first come to meditation, theyhave the experience that I
(27:13):
described, that I had, whichsucked. Like it just Yeah, hard,
and life is hard, and you don'twant to do more things. If you
don't really sense that there'sgoing to be a payoff, like you
people want instant results, forbetter or worse. It's just
weird, most of us, and yoganidra. And like, you know, it's
(27:40):
not to say that I don't have aseated meditation practice, like
I do. Against other meditativetechniques, I practice a range
of them. But yoga nidra tends tobe for people of all levels of
experience, a pleasure.
Something that you want to do.
(28:03):
So you feel naturally,spontaneously and deeply drawn
to your practice, because itfeels really good. It's like a
treat. Yeah, it's like a treat.
It's like a treat. And you know,no matter what the quality of
your experience is, you'rereceiving amazing benefits.
Like, even if you're fullypresent. And you feel as though
(28:23):
you're not dropping in, becauseyou know that that drop in is
something that you're desiring.
And you maybe you've had itbefore. And so you're getting a
tap, and you're like, but why amI not melting? Why am I not
dissolving into bliss. And youhave that like desire attached,
right? And the quality of yourpractice is just not hitting
(28:47):
that that just, you're just notgetting there, and you're
totally present. And you're likefollowing every instruction like
to the letter and you're just sothere that you're like you just
can't not be there, right. Andsometimes we are a little
experience chasing, we don'twant to be present in that
quality of mind. We want to getit like turiya state. But even
(29:14):
if you're fully there and yourexperience in practice, you
know, six days a week is youjust showing up and following
the instructions, you'rebuilding gray matter, you're
shrinking the amygdala, right?
You're building neural pathwaysbetween body and mind. You're
learning to, you know, witnessand welcome whatever is arising.
(29:36):
You're strengthening your trustin your ability to move between
you're strengthening your trustand ability to move between
different different experiences,different sensations. So
Chad Woodford (29:55):
yeah, yeah, what so what a great advertisement
for meditation. That was thatwas Fantastic. Yeah, that's why,
you know, I think, Well, for me,you know, I teach meditation as
well. And part of what I triedto do to make it some are more
accessible and less like a likework is, is to frame it, you
know, sometimes I'll say like,you know, meditation is just
(30:17):
sitting for 10 minutes orsitting for a certain amount of
time, there is a technique, butthe most important thing is that
you're just doing it, you know,it doesn't matter if you're
doing it well, or whatever. I'llalso say that it's just a time
for you to sit, sit there andfully accept yourself, you know,
are these kinds of simplethings, even though the
technique that I offer is basedon kriya, and a mantra, but But
(30:43):
yeah, and you know, and thenagain, like the in the mantra is
another way for it to be moreaccessible, because then you're
just working with something thathelps the mind to kind of have
something to chew on. Right.
But, but Yeah, but you're, Ithink your point was, the Nidra
is a great entry point. It'skind of it's kind of like for
me, you know, I teach a lot ofkriyas and a lot of the kriyas
that I teach, they really putyou very effectively and very
(31:06):
efficiently in this meditativestate. And so I think that's
kinda what you're saying aboutNidra, right, is that it's
putting you in a state,especially if you do it
consistently over time, wherethen you just start to it starts
to bleed over into your life,and maybe you then find sitting
meditation easier, or, ordeeper, or that kind of?
Hilary Jackendoff (31:27):
Absolutely, it's, you know, and one of the
things that all that I'll sayis, with with Nidra, like, you
said, like it puts you in thatthat meditative state and, and I
mentioned earlier, that part ofmy challenge with that Buddhist
(31:48):
technique was the fact that myawareness wasn't internalized.
And I, after I did mymeditation, teacher training,
and I learned about meditationtheory, and I learned about, you
know, how to introvertconsciousness to access the
meditative state. Themethodology employed in yoga
(32:09):
nidra is is so powerful at doingjust that it's so deliberate,
it's so systematic, and theprecision of the technique. You
know, like, when I when I leadteacher trainings my students
can, like, they're kind of blownaway, like after they teach
(32:33):
Nidra to a friend or a familymember, and their friend or
family member, usually whodoesn't meditate is like, oh, my
god, that was amazing. Like, Iwent somewhere, I felt so
peaceful, like I, I wasn'tthinking, and they're blown away
by the fact that they were ableto facilitate that experience
for someone. And most of thepeople that I train, many of
(32:54):
them aren't yoga teachers. Andthis is the first teacher
training that many of the peoplethat I that I trained have done
well, and yeah. And thetechnique works, like the
precision of the techniquefacilitates an introversion of
consciousness and a withdrawalof the senses. It facilitates
(33:17):
pratyahara in such an efficientway, in such a simple way. And
in a way that's so simple forpeople to guide, right, like it
is. It's beautiful, like there'sno barrier to entry. And it's,
it's, it just works. It justworks well.
Chad Woodford (33:38):
Amazing. And, and we should say, you have a nidra
teacher training coming up inthe spring, in the spring,
Hilary Jackendoff (33:48):
finishing one up next weekend. And then right
now the waitlist is open forfolks to kind of express their
interest. And then applicationswill open. Yeah, soon. Soon. So
it'll be starting in February.
Chad Woodford (34:07):
Amazing. Yeah. I mean, yeah, sure. After all that
I don't know how anybody can notsign up for your thing. So
Hilary Jackendoff (34:17):
world needs more well trained yoga nidra
teachers so badly. And, youknow, especially the, the
practice is getting more andmore traction in mainstream
society, like it's getting to bemore secularly well known
because of Andrew Huberman, theStanford neuroscientist, who has
(34:37):
been sort of presenting it to tothe scientific community to his
large podcast audience to hissocial media following he's been
calling it non sleep deep rest.
And fair enough, like whateveris going to bring more people to
the practice. I'm so here forit. Like,
Chad Woodford (34:59):
right here.
clunky it's kind of a clunkyexpression that I mean,
Hilary Jackendoff (35:03):
NSDR. It's a little clunky NSDR but it is non
sleep deep rest, right like andmore and more. But that's like a
very simple sort of way to justget people on board with the
idea that rest is important. Andrest is a physiological
biological necessity. It's not aluxury. It's not, you know, it's
(35:25):
not lazy it is your body needsto regain hormonal homeostasis
After navigating the stresses ofdaily life.
Chad Woodford (35:34):
Yes, amen. to that. I think rested more, I
think the whole world havechanged. Honestly.
Hilary Jackendoff (35:41):
That's been my vision, man, that's been my
vision since 2008. It's likeeveryone would be more peaceful,
kinder, emotionally regulated,like, when we're not well
rested, when we're not wellslept. And you're going to do it
helps to address issues withsleep as well. And trauma,
healing trauma. It like it. Whenwe're not getting the rest that
(36:04):
we need. We are not functioningoptimally on a cognitive level.
We're not processing andintegrating our emotions
properly. Like, we're, we'rewe're a mess.
Chad Woodford (36:18):
Yeah. But like reminder. Yeah. So isn't. So
your mission is to help peoplelearn? Yeah, what is your what
would you say your mission is,you know, why? Why are you doing
what you're doing?
Hilary Jackendoff (36:31):
At work, because I cannot have external
authority and must work formyself. No, because, you know,
my mission in life is to helpmore people help as many people
as possible, realize that peaceis available to them realize
(36:53):
that joy is available to them,that ease is available to them.
And that self love and selfacceptance have to exist, like
you have to develop into, intoyourself and embrace the
totality of who you areincluding your shadow. And, and
(37:17):
you have to show up inauthenticity. So that you can
step fully into your purpose andbe of service in this world and
support people in transformingand moving towards peace, joy
and ease in your own way. Andthat's what I want to
facilitate. I just want to bringas many people as possible into
(37:41):
self acceptance, self love, sothat they can step into
authenticity, purpose and powerand bring about more joy, ease
and peace.
Chad Woodford (37:49):
Wow, amazing.
Amazing. Yeah. Yeah, I love it.
I love it. You know, it's, it's,I love it too. Because, as I
think, you know, a big part ofthe kind of purpose of this
podcast and the theme of thepodcast is, is exploring
spirituality from, you know,more of a kind of grounded and,
(38:13):
and level headed perspective andtrying to answer the question,
you know, how do we make thespiritual practices more
accessible to people? And how dowe help more people to become
more aware and to expandconsciousness, but also just to
feel better, and to feel theirfeelings and to get in touch
(38:34):
with, you know, a deeper part ofthemselves, with their intuition
and, and through that process toreally become more whole people
so that we can, you know, Ithink, change the world is how I
feel about the power of thesepractices. So, so I like this,
because for me, it's great,because it's an accessible entry
point for people. And I thinkthey can kind of wrap their
(38:58):
heads around it, it doesn'tsound so I mean, you can, you
know, you can talk about it in away, like, we have been a little
bit that, you know, you'reyou're accessing these other
states of consciousness, but,you know, you can talk about it
in a way where it's just helpingyou rest, you know, and it can
be almost like a gateway intoother things, you know, so, so I
just love that. Because, youknow, my mission too is to, to
(39:20):
help people to do all the thingsyou're talking about to relax,
feel better and expandconsciousness because I feel
like, I feel like any of theproblems you look at in our
world right now, you know, ifyou trace the root cause of it
back far enough, I think it iswhat we've been talking about.
It's the fact that people arenot aware, not self aware.
(39:43):
They're in a dense state ofconsciousness and they're, you
know, they're, they're stressedout, they're anxious, they're,
you know, they're too easilysort of falling into these
conditioned ways of thinking andbeing right so, so yeah, I guess
what I'm what I'm trying to sayis that you have a nidra is such
a Simple was so powerful andeffective way for people to kind
(40:04):
of get into the spiritual pathin a sense, would you say?
Hilary Jackendoff (40:08):
Yeah, it's Yeah, I would. And it's, it's,
there's, it has so much utility,like I am, I call myself, I call
myself, I call myself a mysticalpragmatist, like that is, like I
want to offer pragmatic tools,pragmatic tools that like serve
(40:30):
a real function in daily lifeand enter, accessible, easy,
enjoyable, and createtransformation that ripples into
every layer of your being, youknow, and it's like, it's not
complicated. If you just showup, and you lie down, and you
(40:52):
and that's the only 20 minutesthat you take for yourself all
day. Perfect, and you just had alittle bit of a rest, you just
shut your eyes, like gave yoursenses a break, gave your eyes a
break from screens, softenedyour muscles, like freed up a
little bit of energy forcognitive function, like by
releasing the tension from yourbody, like, you know, just that
(41:15):
just 20 minutes lying down,listening to a guided meditation
to just put you into a slightlymore relaxed state. It's going
to transform the rest of yourday. You do that every day, drop
into the deeper layersexperience, the healing that it
creates, you know, on ournervous system level, experience
(41:36):
the benefits for sleep, like andthen the spiritual benefits.
It's like it has so muchutility.
Chad Woodford (41:44):
Yeah, yeah. It's beautiful. Well, we spent we
spent a good chunk of timetalking about yoga nidra that's
how that's how rich and andfascinating. This this
practices. It's pretty great.
(42:27):
Yeah, so you and I have bothspent time living in an ashram
studying in ashrams. You were inNew Zealand, and then I think
you were in India, right? Isthere anything else about ashram
life that we should talk about?
I mean, there's it's such a richtopic, I guess. But it sounds
like Oh, I think I was, I mean,I saw I just happen to see on
your website that, you know, youtalk about his experience, but
(42:48):
then you kind of talk about howyou moved away from that. And
you realize maybe that, youknow, that the practicing with a
quote, unquote, Guru is maybenot the way for you are the wave
for everyone. You know, Ithought that was interesting,
because I had a similarexperience.
Hilary Jackendoff (43:05):
Yeah, yeah.
So I, after that firstexperience in New Zealand, it
led me to the better part of adecade, committed to this this
traditional guru based lineage,the Bihar School of yoga,
Satyananda yoga. After theashram, in New Zealand time, I
went the following year toIndia. And honestly, I had like
(43:25):
the most profound spiritualexperience, one of the most
profound spiritual experiencesthat I've had in my life meeting
Swami Satyananda, the lineagehead of, of the Bihar School of
yoga. And he was, it was a yearbefore he passed, and meeting
him was just like, to, the onlyway that I can describe it is
(43:50):
heart opening. But that doesn'tmean like, that people say that
all the time. You know, like, itdoesn't. I can't fully express
what it was, it was, you know,like the mystical experiences,
we can't really put names tothem, we can't really put words
to them necessarily. So it wasit was really, really profound.
(44:15):
And it led me to the realizationthat I had to go deeper into
this lineage. And then I wentand spent two years living at an
ashram in Australia followingthat, and that's where I did my
my teacher training.
Chad Woodford (44:35):
So yeah, so what was it about about his his
presence in particular, was itjust like, who was he radiating
and kind of this? This kind ofpresent like, what was it about
him?
Hilary Jackendoff (44:48):
He was, God.
It sounds so stupid. He was purelove and light. He was pure love
and light. And, you know, histeachings in the earlier years
and because he had been teachingand you know, sort of leading
and creating this spiritualcommunity for since the 1960s.
(45:08):
After he left his ashram, SwamiShivananda ashram in Rishikesh.
And he went off to start this,this particular school of yoga.
And his, the way that hepresented in earlier years, his
teachings, His books, His setsongs, it was very masculine, it
(45:29):
was very, you know, to poskittfocused very hard line like
yogic austerity, like, hard linestuff, right? very dogmatic. And
then, as he moved through life,in his 70s, and in his 80s, his
(45:50):
focus turned entirely to bhakti.
And his It was as though like,you know, it was like, it took
him decades to get to the heart.
And, and I don't know, right,like, I didn't know him in the
(46:12):
70s in the 80s. Like, I didn'tknow him then but his presence
was just so pure, and the levelof depths with which he saw each
person in the room, like, youknow, the phrase art, like, you
(46:35):
know, how I had Darshan. Like,yeah, it was like, it was being
seen by, by it was like, beingseen by the Divine, like, it was
like, he was embodying divinity,and then sending that out to
every single person that, youknow, stood up to introduce
(46:58):
themselves in turn. And it wasit was just beautiful. And it
was like, yeah, yeah. And thatwas that was when I was like,
okay, whatever this is, this iswhat I want more of. Yeah. And
Chad Woodford (47:19):
yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah. You know, it
took me decades to get to theheart too and I'm not even sure
I'm there yet. But, but yeah, Imean, it it reminds me of what
you're describing reminds me alittle bit of, you know, the
stories you hear about NeemKaroli Baba, Ram Dass's is guru,
and even toward towards the endRam Das. There's this great book
(47:42):
by Pete Holmes. Comedy Sex God.
Where he Yeah, you know, yeah.
And yeah, the way he describeshis time with Ram Dass sounds
like what you're talking aboutthis just you're in this field
of like, pure love, and it'sjust like your marinating in it
almost. So yeah, that's, that'sgood. And why Yeah. So that,
(48:02):
would that experience, whywouldn't you go into it? more
deeply? Yeah, yeah. So yeah. Sothen you went and studied in
Australia. And so would you saythat that that training or that
experience was primarily bhaktifocused then?
Hilary Jackendoff (48:18):
No, that was the full yogic tree. It was a it
was a two year teacher training.
That you know, it was a yogateacher training. And we, the
curriculum was really wideranging. So we studied bhakti
yoga, we studied Yanni yoga, westudied Karma Yoga, we studied
the Gita, we studied the sutraslike everything plus asana,
(48:41):
pranayama, Mudra, Bonda, yoga,Nidra 1000, meditation
techniques, not 1000 You know,so and we, over the course of
two years like went pretty deepthrough our own personal sadhana
and then in these intensivesthese residential intensives but
(49:06):
I lived at the ashram throughthe two years like as a resident
outside of the residentialportion of the training. So I
was getting like, you know, thedeeper studying the deeper
teachings with with seniorteachers. I was running the the
fire ceremonies the the havensevery week. I was getting like
(49:26):
the real ashram training wherelike, you know, like, you hear
over the loudspeaker, like,someone didn't show up to teach
their class and you're in youroffice, and then you're like,
Oh, I hope they don't find me. Idon't feel like teaching and
then literally, someone comes toyour door and it's like, you you
(49:48):
need to go and teach right now.
There's 30 visitors waiting inthe sadhana Hall and you're
teaching right now, and you justlike run across the campus. So
Like, just sit down and holdspace and just like shift gears
immediately. And just like that,that experience of like always
being thrown into the deep endalways being pushed outside of
(50:10):
your comfort zone. Like theashram life is very trial by
fire. And it's also like livinginside of a pressure cooker.
Like having all of your thing,all of your issues triggered,
because you're living incommunity with you get triggered
(50:30):
when you live in communitiesanyway. But then you're also
having these these sort ofplayful teachers that are like,
kind of poking at you a littlebit and testing you a little
bit. It's like, oh, well, shedoesn't want to go to the farm.
She doesn't want to do manuallabor. So let's put her on
manual labor every day thisweek,
Chad Woodford (50:52):
and see how you just gotta be my awesome
experience to a tee. Yeah,yeah. Yeah, man. It was great. I
love Yeah, yeah. For me, livingat the ashram was one of the
hardest things I ever did. Butit was so good for my ego, and
so good for my confidence andeverything. Because like what
you're talking about, yeah. Sooften to there, you're asked to
(51:12):
spontaneously, you know, step upor step into a role. And it
really is a beautiful reminderof how you can, you don't have
to be so prepared, you don'thave to be, you know, quote,
unquote, ready, you just, if youjust do the thing, it'll flow
out of you, you know, in mostcases, and that's a great
(51:34):
experience to have. And thenyeah, just Yeah, running into
all these ego traps and theLSVT. Like you're saying, living
in community where, like, forme, my expectation was that
people would be like, Oh, well,there'll be less triggers,
because people will be, youknow, committed to treating
people or whatever. I don'tknow. And so yeah. So, yeah.
Hilary Jackendoff (52:03):
Oh, my God, it was like, you know, what, the
lesson that I learned, I learneda lot of lessons and like, it is
a fine line between sort ofcultures, like it's a fine line
in Ashram life between sort ofgently kind of poking at
(52:24):
people's egos and pushing themoutside of their comfort zone,
maybe a little more than they'dlike, maybe a little harder than
they'd like. And it's a fineline between that and cultures
of abuse. Yeah, it's, you know,it's, and for people who have a
history of mental, mental healthissues, or a history of, you
(52:46):
know, being in abusiverelationships, like ashram life
is gonna be, it might not becorrect, like, but if you're
showing up,
Chad Woodford (52:58):
I was gonna say, I think part of what I
experienced anyways, was, Ithink so often, the guru or the
or the head of the ashram or theteachers. I think they think
that the practices and thelifestyle are a panacea, like
it's a solution for anything,but I don't think it is, I think
you're saying, yeah, what you'resaying could be mental illness,
or it could be a lot of thingsthat you should go somewhere
(53:19):
else to deal with.
Hilary Jackendoff (53:21):
And we at the ashram, where I was like, it
was, God, I could talk aboutthis all day, there's so much
there. But we were generallypretty careful around who we
allowed to stay long term asresidents and there was an
application process and a mentalhealth screening and a physical
health screening and the ashramresidents were aware of the
(53:45):
people that were coming in tojoin as residents and were aware
of their medical health history.
You know, and like, there wereagreements in place where if
someone came in on medication,they had to agree to remain on
medication. So like, there wasthere were there were systems in
place at this particular ashramto kind of guard against
environments that wouldn't behealthy or safe for people. But
(54:10):
then the people that were sortof healthy and we kind of came
in, you know, pretty okay, kindof got poked the most, so it
was, yeah. But I have so muchfun. Like, it was so hard, but
it was also the most fun I thinkI've ever had in my life. Like,
(54:31):
it was joy and play, and like,you know, my teachers were my
friends. And it was really, we,you know, and it wasn't serious.
Like, there was some kind of oldheads that were kinda a little
stodgy sometimes and kind ofuptight about the way rituals
(54:51):
were done and like, would kindof pull you up on everything.
But in general Like we it wasreally, it was beautiful. I had
an incredible experience.
Chad Woodford (55:06):
You know, the fact that they did all the
screening was sounds nicebecause the ashram I lived at
didn't screen as far as I wasaware, but I've been part of,
you know, plant medicine andayahuasca communities where they
do screen so I can see wherethat's a real benefit. And I
wonder if maybe that would havehelped us. But yeah, in terms of
what you're talking about, I'mreminded of when I was at the
(55:27):
ashram that I had thisexperience where I was really
spinning out, like, I was reallysort of judging everybody who
was there. And I was, I wasthinking, like, Oh, nobody here
is really practicing, or nobodyhere is really like benefiting
from the practice. And all thesestories, I was telling myself
and, and so I eventually, thiswoman, one of my friends, one of
the teachers pulled me aside atone point and said, you know,
(55:50):
what's going on with you? Youseem, you know, totally
distraught, you know, and I waslike, Well, I told her, you
know, what I was thinking, she'slike, you know, people who are
here, like, they need to behere, because they have all
these issues. You know, it's nota place for people who are like,
already enlightened orsomething. And I was like, Oh, I
had my, like, Shutter Islandmoment where I was like, oh,
(56:11):
like, I'm, I'm the one with theissues, you know.
Hilary Jackendoff (56:18):
Man, I, I had, I was always triggered, I
was always head tripping. And,you know, it was, it was really
hard. I remember the woman thatran the ashram or founded the
ashram. She said that, or one ofthe senior residents, I don't
(56:40):
remember exactly who it was,almost 10 years ago. She said
that the ashram is is a placefor the best and the brightest
and the broken, and thedestitute. And I was like, huh,
yeah. Very day to day, I mean,honestly, like, the number one
(57:05):
lesson that I learned, was howto hold space for myself,
because nobody asked how you'redoing. Nobody said, Do you need
a hug? And no one said, youknow, like, you look emotional.
You look, you've been eatinglunch every day alone for a week
now, nobody asked anything. Youlearned how to keep your own
(57:25):
counsel, and you learned how todeal with your shit. Wow, that
was really powerful. Was that?
Chad Woodford (57:33):
What a great asset to have. What a powerful
thing to have your back pocket?
You know?
Hilary Jackendoff (57:39):
100% like I cannot. I'm so grateful to have
learned that lesson. Like,
Chad Woodford (57:45):
yeah, yeah, it was. Well, yeah.
Hilary Jackendoff (57:50):
It was. It was transformative. I mean, you
just learned that like, the theups and downs, like when you
were in sort of a level moment,you know, on the Human Design
front, like I was amplifyingeveryone's emotions all the
time. That's now that Iunderstand that was what was
happening. So I was just alwaysriding these waves. And I would
(58:11):
be like, tripping out, like,ready to like, run screaming
from the gate. Like, and thenwhen I would have moments where
I felt kind of level, I waslike, Oh, this is good. This is
I'm gonna go up, I'm gonna godown. And I'll come back to
this, this midpoint, at somepoint. And that's going to be
this is just the way life is.
Chad Woodford (58:32):
Yeah, kind of gives you it gives you what
Krishna gave Arjuna in theBhagavad Gita in a sense, which
is the feeling that noexperience is too big for you to
handle, you know, you start tohave that experience. Yeah,
yeah. No. Because you know, forme, like, too many times I had
my bags packed and I was readyto go, you know? And it was like
(58:54):
now that I've now that Isurvived that experience, and I
lived in kind of like a concretecell with a tiny window and no
heat. You know, I can almostlive anywhere now. You know,
nothing is like that bad really.
Compared to
Hilary Jackendoff (59:09):
Wow, we had a little bit more Creature
Comforts in Australia. But Imean, it wasn't a concrete cell
like it was it was definitely alittle more vibey than that but
no heat. Like no airconditioning, like I used to
sleep in the summer, it would belike 115 degrees. And I would
sleep with like, I would sleeplike naked with a wet dhoti over
(59:31):
me, but in the middle of thenight, it would dry and then I
would have to go wet it again. Iwould have to go like walk
downstairs outside to thebathroom and re soak the dhoti
and you know, around thepoisonous spiders on the way
like literally in the bathroom.
redback spiders eating wholelizards. Yeah, there was some
(59:54):
hardcore or hardcore lifestyle.
They're
Chad Woodford (01:00:04):
the things I do to bring these beautiful
practices that practices back tothe people really don't know, do
the price we paid? Well, I mean,I'm sure we can get like you
said we could talk about ashramlife for hours. But there's so
much we could talk about. Wecould talk about mantra, we
could talk about, I mean, wehaven't even touched on human
(01:00:26):
design, for example. I know.
What I'm doing is I'm kind ofwinding down here. So just yeah,
just to tee up things foranother time, perhaps, but we're
gonna do Yeah, yeah, we can havewe can have a part two. Yeah.
Cuz I also, you know, I thinkit's interesting. We're both
sort of I'm from New York. I'mfrom New Jersey. We live in Los
Angeles. That's a whole othertopic we could talk about. Oh,
(01:00:50):
my gosh. But yeah. But yeah, Ithink we've covered enough
ground today. And I just wantedto mention a couple of things.
In terms of how to find your,your stuff, you're at
meditationchick.com. Right. Andyou have some beautiful yoga
nidra recordings on InsightTimer, so you can go there to
check those out. And then interms of what's coming up for
(01:01:12):
you, you've got Mexico retreathappening in late March. And
like we said earlier, you're thethe ninja training is happening
in the spring. And anything elseI missed?
Hilary Jackendoff (01:01:26):
Now, I think the retreat in Mexico, just in
case anybody is interested. Itis a yoga nidra and human design
retreat. So it's about weaving,weaving pragmatic strategies for
energy management andcultivating self acceptance and
self love through human design.
With deep subconscious workthrough yoga nidra to transform
(01:01:49):
beliefs and patterns and yeah,and it's gonna be incredible
jungle ocean. Beautiful,beautiful community it's just
north of Sayulita in San Pancho,so you can actually walk on the
beach to Sayulita. It's about a20–30 minute walk.
Chad Woodford (01:02:11):
Yeah, wow. That's I love that area. I've done I've
done a yoga retreat and PuertaVillarta and spent some time
it's lately to last year, if yougo to the retreat, and you go to
Sayulita, you have to go toMary's tacos in Sayulita. Okay.
All right. Noted. That soundsamazing. So, so yeah, so Well,
(01:02:32):
thanks for doing this. Hilary.
It was so much fun.
Hilary Jackendoff (01:02:36):
Thank you for having me Chad. I am excited for
our next conversation and Imean, appreciate appreciate the
opportunity to nerd out. Andyeah, share these these tools
and teachings. Thanks, Chad. Allright, thanks.
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