ConspirAsylum 1: Lobotomatrix

Hello and welcome to another bad ass mini series! In this series we will be taking a closer look at mental illness and the industry around it. We’re going to be talking about the history of mental illness, from the medieval treatments all the way to the modern day outlook.. Is mental illness more of a misunderstood spiritual condition or simply something that can be prescribed away or therapy sessioned away?

In today's episode we will be looking at some ancient accounts of mental illness and treatments, the conception of the madhouses and some medieval “cures” for these conditions. 

This is sensitive content. Listener discretion is advised!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Oh there. M hm.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Trigger warn This podcast may include explicit content that will
take you out of your comfort zone and make you
question reality.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Listener's discretion is advised. Hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Hello and welcome back to the brand new cult mini series.
In this series, Colby and I will be taking you
on a journey through the mysteries of mental illness. This
series was actually inspired by a conversation Colby and I
were having about a local crazy homeless guy who may

(01:24):
or may not have machete some poor guys head off
in Ashland. You were telling me.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, I think you're taking a lot of stories and
clumping them together.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Anyways, We're gonna be talking about the history of mental illness,
the medieval treatments all the way to the modern day outlook,
is mental illness more of a misunderstood spiritual condition or
simply something that can be prescribed away or therapy sessioned away?

(01:58):
This is the topic and today today's episode is can
Spire Asylum Part one the Loboto Matrix and Colby is
joining me for this series. Colby, how are you?

Speaker 1 (02:12):
I'm good? Feeling extra insane tonight?

Speaker 3 (02:16):
I knew it me too, And isn't it sick?

Speaker 1 (02:19):
It's a full moon.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
I think, oo, you can be lunatics tonight.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
I'm too tired to be a lunatic.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
August eighth, so we have eight eight lions gate energy
plus a full moon. There's probably a lot of homeless
crazy people running around somewhere, machete in people's heads off.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
It's a waxing gibbus tonight. It's not quite full Oh.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
It's a waxing gibbis. Are you excited for this new
mini series?

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Super excited?

Speaker 3 (02:56):
So where should we begin? At the beginning? Right? The
history of mental illness?

Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah? I think a good reference point to start things
off would be what many people think the definition of
insanity is.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
It's not doing something over and over again.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Okay, so do you know that the phrase how it goes?
I don't know what word for word, The definition of
insanity is repeating the same thing over and over but
expecting different results. Something.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
That's not the definition.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
No, it isn't. But do you know who is attributed
to having had said that?

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Some idiot?

Speaker 1 (03:37):
Well, don't look at my notes. I have heard it
was Albert Einstein. Oh yeah, you know what that does?

Speaker 3 (03:45):
Sound familiar.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
I've also heard it was Benjamin Franklin.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
I also heard that it was Mark Twain. I can
I could.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Get behind the first one and that one, but not
Ben Franklin. He just didn't seem like the type to
be saying.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
Well, the funny thing is none of those three men
said that.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
Who the fuck said it?

Speaker 1 (04:13):
Well, when you dig around a little bit, it looks
like the first place that it's that it was printed
or was like said to be a thing other than
people saying other people said it, because there's no documentation
of any of those three aforementioned people having said it.
But the earliest is from a fucking alan On magazine article,

(04:38):
like a a non said it. Alanon is alcoholics, Anonymous
is for alcoholics. Alan On is for loved ones or
family members of alcoholics. Really, you haven't heard of alan On.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
No.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
So they all have their sayings, you know, alcoholics, Anonymous
has their However, you want to look at their twelve
steps and the things they tell you that you have
to do and that you have to have the power
come from without from outside yourself. But Alann had this
other thing where they basically said, I mean, I'm paraphrasing

(05:18):
what the statement meant, but it seemed like it was sane.
Addicts are it's a form of insanity, and you kind.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
Of have to Okay, Yeah, but it's been so liberally
applied the word insanity. No, that's stupid. Oh, it's expectingly
it's doing the same thing.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
Let's break that statement down, because if that was true,
nobody who ever practiced anything that they got good at
would have ever kept going unless they were insane. Because
if you fucking start throwing darts, you're doing the same
thing trying to get better, and you are expecting different results.
And if you practice enough at anything, you will get better.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
But practicing in and of itself is doing the same thing.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Over and over. That's why I'm saying that, and.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
Getting different results because you're getting better at it.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
Yeah. Well, anyway, we're getting into semantics of the word insanity.
And another thing that I find interesting is that insanity
in technical terms, there's only one place you can find it. Today.
It's been replaced by a whole slew of mental health nomenclature.

(06:30):
And now, what's your guess on where it is still
a technical term insanity? I'll give you a hint. Serial killers, Well,
they don't use insane anymore. The word insane technical terms.

(06:51):
Unless it's in the court of law. You can plead insanity.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
Right, okay, Temporary insanity.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
Or temporary insanity is a plea. Usually it seems like
a plea of desperation, but you can plead full on
insanity too.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
There were other words like back in the day, like
you could say somebody was mad, you could say somebody
was uh, even possessed. They would say that people were
possessed or mad or insane retarded.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Well, yeah, but those are two overlapping things, right. Retardation
mental illness of any kind is a pretty broad term.
But I would say that when we used to call
people insane or crazy, you were talking about some kind

(07:50):
of biological neurological disorder, which they still don't know exactly
what causes it to this day. They claim they do
because they saw a lot of pharmaceuticals. And I do
believe that we were going to get into that in
full scale in the second episode. Yes, but pharmaceuticals aside.

(08:11):
If you want to start getting into the early history
of mental illness slash insanity, you're not going to find
a lot out there before, like Greek societies, where every
form of mental illness was attributed to a supernatural origin, paranormal, supernatural, religious,

(08:35):
fill in the blank with that kind of word, and
that was what was going on. Even when you get
back into like ancient tribal society and shamanism, which I
think once we start getting into it, I have an
article I want to read about a guy who came
over to America from somewhere in Africa in the early

(08:55):
eighties and he couldn't believe the way that we look
at it because their cultures have always looked at it
as something completely different, which will we will get into.
But what are your thoughts on like how it kind
of emerged and more often to what it is today.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Well, I think I think, uh, as we're going to
kind of get into in the second episode about pharmaceuticals
and the big money machine that is mental illness, you'll
kind of see this pattern developing. We're in the beginning
in like ancient cultures, which I'm going to touch on

(09:35):
a little bit, if you had someone in your community
that was insane or whatever the fuck was wrong with them,
they treated it as like a spiritual condition and they
like nurtured the person and they like tried to you know,
do remedies and stuff on the person to get to
try to fix them. And now it's just like it.

(09:59):
We've gotten to the point where it's just like shoven
peels down people's throats. They completely removed the spiritual aspect,
I mean to zero. There is no spiritual aspect of
it anymore. It's all medicine. And in the beginning they
would do like rituals, they would do prayers on people.

(10:21):
Uh they you know, they thought supernatural forces or even
curses or deities, could it be responsible for their condition?
And they even something that both of us wanted to
talk about is like the the practice of the Trephi nation,

(10:43):
I guess is what it's called, like Jeffrey Dahmer's style,
I mean skulls.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
You make a great point. I did want to counter
a couple things you said, just because I don't think
the spiritual element has completely disappeared in modern day in
mainstream society for the most part, it has. But you
can still look at Catholicism and other similar organizations that

(11:11):
treat this as.

Speaker 3 (11:12):
It We're talking about like the mainstream narrative, when you
find a schizophrenic person, it's not to take them to
the pope, it's to take them to for sure somewhere
to get pills.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
Yeah, when you do look at it through normal eyes,
that is the go to. But I don't think it's
completely disappeared. And I also don't think the spiritual element
back in the day was always met with a nurturing reaction.
I think sometimes even early on, there was a lot
of outcasting going on with people who had mental illness,

(11:49):
and especially when you started getting into like the European
societies where this was showing up, and it was talking
about even before right, right, But I would say the
outcasting of the mentally ill did have a huge uptick
once it was you know, the stigma attached to it.

(12:12):
It was if your family had any kind of name
or reputation, that was the last thing that you wanted
to be associated with. And even back in the day
when there was like tribalism and shamanism was a big
thing going on, there was a lot of tribes that
were scared of this and they it was met with

(12:33):
a huge misunderstanding and fear. But yeah, it's never just
been like one way across the board how we've reacted
to mental illness, and it may never be unless we
do have some huge breakthrough and understanding, because I'm of
the mindset that it could be spiritual and physical and

(12:53):
sometimes more so one or the other.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
Well, I could get down with that, but I try
to look at like a bunch of different ancient cultures
to see how things have escalated to this point to
where you know, we look at it the way that
we do. And you know, is every homeless person just

(13:17):
possessed by a demon? I don't know that. So yeah,
could it be some spiritual some physical?

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Yes, well in the two build upon one another.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yeah, sure. I mean, I know you wanted to talk
about Greece, but before we do that, can I touch
on a few other ancients?

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah? Yeah, I was just using Greece as one of
those examples of the more compassionate.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
They were the one of the more compassionate.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
So even though there's elements I'm gonna touch on that
show how fucking far behind they were in some ways.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
No, I agree with you on that, but I'm gonna
let you actually cover that one. I have Mesopotamia as
one of the and so I looked into and they
were big into like thinking that people were possessed by
deities and they would say, like the hands of those

(14:16):
deities like that. That they would say the hands of
ish tar was used as a psychological illness, like a
term for psychological illness, like they were cursed or something.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Really, yeah, remember that word. My son always says it.

Speaker 3 (14:36):
Oh yeah, he's kind of stopped.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
But it was like one of his first things like
to say. And we wondered why.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah, So they would say if somebody was like insane,
they would say that they had the hands of ishtar.
So whatever deity they thought was possessing them or cursing
them or plaguing them.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
And then.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
In Mesopotamia, the royal family of el I guess that
was one of the big royal families or whatever. It
was notorious for its members frequently being insane. This royal
family in ancient Mesopotamia makes you wonder if they were

(15:17):
doing a little incestuous shit right for so many of
their family members to be fucking insane. But they actually
said that a rectile dysfunction was a psychological problem in
ancient Mesopotamia. And you know, men have needed blue shoe

(15:39):
since literally the beginning of time.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Can we insert the sam tripoli Id reader right here?

Speaker 3 (15:45):
But that was interesting to me. It's like this one
royal family was specifically or particularly afflicted with mental illness
and they would blame it on having soft penises. Yes,
I mean I would agree that their penises were so

(16:05):
soft it drove them insane.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Or vice versa. I think that them looking at it
as a psychological disorder was thinking way ahead of the
time for what we are led to believe that culture
had at their fingertips as far as information goes. But yeah,
I think nine times out of ten there are certain
physical afflictions that can cause impotency, but for the most

(16:31):
part it is psychological. So good job Mesopotamia.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
Yeah, good job Mesopotamia.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
You think they put hummus on their blue cheoe? Yes,
they did hum chew.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, it was actually called to bully chow.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Well nice.

Speaker 3 (16:53):
Anyways, I'm gonna skip Rome, even though I put a
bunch of notes in here, because Greece and Rome kind
of go hand in hand. So I'm just gonna skip
to the next one I had.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, they just inherited everything from them.

Speaker 3 (17:05):
Right, So mental disorders in ancient Egypt. This is one
that I wanted to talk to you about because you
found out a bunch of information about Hippocrates, and actually
I think now would be a good time to talk
about that before.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
I pronounced Hippocrates. Have you seen Bill and Ted?

Speaker 3 (17:28):
Yes, so Crates, I forgot about that.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, I mean it is how it's spelled, the Hippocrates, and.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
You talk about Hippocrates in Rome, and then I'll talk
about ancient Egypt because I think they actually kind of
tie together.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Well, ancient Egypt, I'll say right off the bat, we're
highly advanced in the way they looked at it. Yes,
they sounded like a Joe Rogan podcast. When it came
to mental illness. They basically their answer to it was
to expose the afflicted to socializing, recreation and creativity. So

(18:10):
if melancholy strikes someone for an amount of time, they
would push them to engage with you know, go to
a concert, paint picture, do whatever. And oftentimes it was successful.
Of course, people like Joe Rogan don't realize that sometimes

(18:31):
people are just fucking depressed or mentally afflicted in ways
that can't be but it does help a lot of people.
Like the stagnant lifestyle, having everything you need, not really
having adversity in your day to day life. I mean,
these are things that are preached now in the right
wing wellness community, but there is a lot to it.

(18:51):
It's not the end all, be all cure, but I
think the Egyptians were ahead of their time for thinking
like that, and.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
The same lines with Joe Rogan. The ancient Egyptians also
said to cure hysteria and melancholy, they should take hallucinogens, right,
So that was another thing that the ancient Egyptians kind of.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
And that fucking toe shaped gnome is obsessed with Egypt.

Speaker 3 (19:20):
So yeah, I mean, well, who is it really they did?
They did spells and shit too, Don't don't get it twisted.
In ancient Egypt, there were They did use certain temples
and spell casting and hallucinogens, and.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
They also believed in the wandering Uterus, which we will
talk about. That even kind of crosses over into hippocrites.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
Would you say his fucking name?

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Right, I'm saying it, Bill and tedstyle Hippocrates. For as
much as he was given credit for, he was also
kind of looney.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, he was. Go ahead, talk about Greece.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
Then, well, I've got an article to read. Oh yes,
you said Greece. I had an article on ancient Egypt.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
Oh, sure, if you have one on ancient Egypt before we.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
Get to and I also at some point, do you
want to read the shamanic view of mental illness by
that guy that came over in the eighties with the
you know African Yeah, but any of the African view
of mental illness that he brought with him over here.

Speaker 3 (20:36):
And just thought, you want to sum up the ancient
culture's segment with.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
That article, Yeah, we can do that, just it'll be
a good segue acrossing over into the botto too. But
for now, this woman wrote an article, Kathy Pike, and
she's like fucking Columbia University or some shit. Yeah. So
she points out that the hieroglyphs, statues, and mummies from

(21:05):
thousands of years ago is tells stories of war, leadership, succession,
cultural beliefs, and the evolution of ideas. But a lot
of the stuff that was overlooked these people think could
be attributed to their view on mental health. And here's
some points she's brought up where the spiritual, mystical, magical,

(21:27):
and medical meat mental health and ancient Egypt cannot be
understood without exploring the rituals, amulets, incantations and beliefs they were,
and you were talking about this that were at once spiritual, mystical, magical,
and medical. I noticed you had this in your notes too.
But Papyrus Ebers, the best preserved and most extensive medical

(21:50):
text from ancient Egypt, was written approximately fifteen hundred BC,
reflecting some teachings that are thought to date back as
far as three thousand in BC. Papyrus Ebers recurred records
over seven hundred spells to send away illness causing demonic forces.
It also documents an empirical practice of testing and refining

(22:12):
interventions to improve outcomes, including guidance on birth control that
foreshadows modern day barrier methods of contraception, and a treatment
for guinea worm still in use today ivermectin guinea worm.
That's what it says.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
Were they thinking that people had like worms in their brain?

Speaker 1 (22:31):
I don't know, probably something along those lines. What about
the brain? The Edwin Smith Paprius, also dating from approximately
fifteen fifty BC, stands out because it describes the brain
for the first time in history, as enclosed in a membrane,
with two hemispheres patterned and with convolutions. It contains The

(22:53):
first known descriptions of the miniges is that how that
said sure cerebral spinal fluid, and intercranial pulsations. Despite these
early anatomical descriptions of the brain, the mummification process suggests
that the ancient Egypts had limited understanding or appreciating appreciation

(23:16):
of brain functioning. The afterlife was all important in ancient Egypts,
and extensive, extensive measures were taken. The process of mummification
to prepare people for the world hereafter death was nothing
but a further step in life. But for reasons I
have yet to understand, they thought that the brain was
not necessary for the afterlife because it's not during mummification.

(23:38):
It was scooped out through the nostrils with an iron
hook and a process known as ex cerebration.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
Okay, I have a question they if they're not worried
about the brain and they're only looking at the brain
as they do the mummification process, how the fun do
they know all that stuff about the cerebellum and the
core texes and the Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
It's not like they cracked a skull open and examined
it because they're yanking it out through the nose.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
That's what I'm saying. It's like they're not giving the
ancient Egyptians enough credit here for.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Being a wag's That's the thing, is.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
An understanding stuff that we have no idea about. I
think they had electricity. I mean, I think they had
all kinds of shit. They're fucking even understanding.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
If we want to do a conspiracy episode about like
who these people were and what they were doing, I'm
guaranteeing you all this stuff is.

Speaker 3 (24:33):
Gonna just see how she undermined them by saying that
they were just retards taking brains out through the nose
and mummification and da da da. Well, it's like, now, bitch.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
She's making a huge leap that they would view the
brain as important during the next step into the afterlife,
when I mean, obviously that's just part of the physical form.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
They did mummification as a process to like preserve the body.
But that this papyrus of them documenting medical stuff has
nothing to do with mummification. They're talking about they're talking
about like electric synapses in the brain.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah, but how is that?

Speaker 3 (25:17):
I mean, people just don't understand Egyptians. I'm not saying
I'm a fucking expert on it or anything. I'm just
saying they knew what was up.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
Wait, this is proving that. Number three Ancient Egypt's description
of depression. The ancient Egyptian medical text describes somatic, emotional
and psychological symptoms of depression with language that foreshadows clinical
description of mood disorders today, as discussed by Professor Mervat Nasser.

(25:46):
Papyrus Ebers contains descriptions of ill health that are easily
recognized as what we would call mental health conditions today.
Exserts include the mind and the heart, which goes up
and falls down. The mind kneels his heart in its place.
His heart becomes weary, he eats little and is fastidious,
and his mind is drowned. This means his mind is forgetful,

(26:10):
like one who's thinking of something else, as if his
mind is dark. The ancient Egyptians focused on the somatic
aspects of conditions we would describe as mental orders today.
The prioritization of somatic features and mental health is something
that endures in many parts of the world, including modern
day Egypt. This one I found very interesting. Number four

(26:32):
dream interpretation. Sigmund Freud, the father of Psychoanalysis published The
Interpretations of Dreams in eighteen ninety nine as one of
his earliest publications that contributed to the foundations of ideas
and theories that revolutionized our understanding of mental health. Depends
on who you're asking there, human development, interpersonal relations, and
intra psychic dynamics. The ancient Egypts had their own version

(26:57):
of dream interpretation many centuries earlier. In ancient Egypt's, a
person suffering from psychological distress would be sent to a sanatorium,
a sleep temple dedicated to healing. In the sanatorium, they
would enter a dark cell and prepare for a therapeutic dream.
I have that in my notes too. A hypnotic state

(27:17):
was induced by lamps and burning perfumed wood. This sounds like,
you know, like an isolation tank or something, but it
sounds like some hippie dippy nonsense that you could find
in Ashland, Oregon. Well, you know those like they call
them caves, but it's like deprivation for days on end.
Aaron Rodgers went to one of them here and he
didn't last the full amount of times.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
Like they're doing Reikie on these fuckers.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
The hypnotic state was induced by lamps and burning perfumed wood.
Priests interpreted the dreams and consulted the Egyptian dream Berg
dream Book to find cures. Unlike Freud, who believed that
dreams represent an individual's unconscious and internal psychic conflict, the
ancient Egypts understood dreams to be supernatural, where gods were

(28:04):
responsible for shaping dream content and protecting against bad dreams.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
I could get on board with that.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
And this is the last observation number five. First psychology experiment.
Psychology historian Morton Hunt suggests that the first psychology experiment
conducted might be an experiment performed by the Egyptian pharaoh
Samaticus Samatitius. I think it's tikis the first and seventh

(28:34):
century BC. He wanted to ascertain whether Egypt was the
oldest civilization on earth. He hypothesized that children raised in
isolation from birth with no language instruction, would spontaneously develop
the capacity to speak the language of the original civilization
of humanity, and posited that it would be Egyptian. He

(28:54):
had two children raised in a remote region by a
shepherd who was instructed not to speak to the children.
This sounds like fucking Nazi shit. Yeah, at the age
of two. The first word they spoke was bekos, which
turned out to be the Ragian word for bread. Clearly,
the experimental design was seriously flawed and it would never

(29:15):
get through a modern research ethics review board. You don't say,
but it is remarkable in its attempt to experimentally answer
the question of whether the human capacity for language is innate.

Speaker 3 (29:28):
That's interesting. I'm telling you ancient Egyptians were up to
some shit. Was that all you had on them? Because
I think you're gonna find China equally as interesting.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, and we could get into Hippocrates after that.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
That sounds good because I don't know how many notes
you have on China.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
Zero.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Oh good.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
So I had some observations about how they treated in sanity,
and like more modern culture, it was one of the
cultures that did a lot of the shunning of.

Speaker 3 (30:05):
Really, well, this is ancient China.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
I'm I did not look into China at all.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
So it's actually a good segue into Hippocrates because I
believe he actually ripped the Chinese methods off.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Are you sure he wasn't just paying respectful homage?

Speaker 3 (30:23):
No, Because he's credited as coming up with the theory.

Speaker 1 (30:26):
Well, you know he's white.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
You think you go over to China and they're teaching
him as the guy who did all this.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
No, but okay, but think of it though, ancient China
has a lot of rich history, right, and then Hippocrates
is credited as coming up with this theory, But the
ancient Chinese were practicing it for a lot longer.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
You're talking about the Four Humors.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
Yes, so they believed mental and physical illnesses were caused
by imbalances in the forces of yin and yang. But
they they took it as a physical and a mental condition.
So they had this whole yin and yang thing. But

(31:14):
the way that they balanced it out was the Four Humors,
but they called it something else. The earliest known record
of mental illness in ancient China dates back to eleven
hundred BC, and they would use herbs and acupuncture, which

(31:34):
actually acupuncture is still popular to this day because it's
fucking effective.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
A lot of veterans when it added to the treatments
that the VA covers, because it helps a lot of
them out. Like we're talking PTSD, which is a form
of mental illness.

Speaker 3 (31:51):
I actually have had two people tell me that they
had infertility issues, got acupuncture, got pregnant like on their
next cycle. And then I was talking to my doula
and she said, don't don't get induced, don't get a
membrane sweep, don't do any of that. She said, go

(32:12):
get acupuncture. It'll legit start your labor after just a
few treatments. Like acupuncture is some kind of fucking The
Chinese had it figured out.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
Did you, doula listen to this podcast?

Speaker 3 (32:25):
No? Why, she's definitely not ready for it.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
I was just gonna say, I met this woman the
other day.

Speaker 3 (32:33):
Yeah, she's not the type to listen to this podcast.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
I think you should tell her about it.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
No, I'm not gonna tell her about nothing. So the
Inner Canon of the Yellow Emperor, as it's called, described her.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
That's racist. Why yellow?

Speaker 3 (32:49):
Hey, I didn't name it.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
I didn't say you were the one being racist. I
just think we're gonna get hashtag canceled. Whatever.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
Cancel me. Then, that's what it's called the Inner Canon
of the Yellow Emperor. It described symptoms, mechanisms, and therapies
for mental illness, emphasizing connections between bodily organs and emotions.
So they thought like, whatever your symptoms you were presenting mentally,

(33:18):
it was connected to some kind of organ in your body,
which that's why they used acupuncture so much. But they
had this whole thing about if a person exposed themselves
to high levels of emotion, Like.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
Oh, I thought you're gonna say if people exposed themselves
they were considered mentally ill.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
No, it was like they would say, like if they
if somebody went to a funeral and they were they
cried too much, or if they were exposed to the
trauma that they could get possessed and that could also
lead to mental illness. So they would they said, it's

(34:10):
trauma induced, it's stress induced. These are things that we
are just barely understanding today, how stress and trauma affect
the body and cause mental illness and actually could probably
throw off some shit in your body, you know what
I mean, Stress, trauma, those things obviously you know you

(34:33):
can end up having split personality disorder based on different
types of trauma.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
Well. Stress arguably is one of the leading causes of
the majority of mental or mental and physical elements. But
they had this whole.

Speaker 3 (34:51):
They have this whole bile system that they worked on
Yellow bile, green bile, clear bile. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yeah, it's uh, this is from the Hippocrates. Sanguine, choleric, melancholic,
and phlegmatic. Those are the four biles, and one of
them is Sanguine is blood, Choleric is yellow bile, melancholic

(35:26):
is black bile, and phlegmatic is phlim.

Speaker 3 (35:32):
So that idea actually came from the ancient Chinese. And
I think this is a good segue for you to
start talking about Hippocrates, because literally the four humors, as
he called them, were the bile system in ancient China.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yeah, and so if you want to know more about Hippocrates,
everybody knows who he is, ancient famous physicysician, who you know,
the Hippocratic oath, all that shit. But we're just going
to be looking at his model of humorism, the concept.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
I think he called it humors. I don't know, there's
nothing funny about it at all.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
Humorism, the hemoral theory or memorialism, is a system of
medicine detailing is supposed to make up and workings of
the human body. And here even in the Wikipedia, adopted
by ancient Greek and Roman physicians, and philosophers. It doesn't
even mention ancient Chinese. That's what I'm saying. He ripped

(36:37):
them off, and here you go. The concept may have
origins in ancient Egypt or Mesopotamia, though it wasn't systemized
until ancient Greek thinkers.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
They're just totally going to leave out the chinamen well.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
Early texts on Indian A Eurveda medicine presented a theory
of three or four humors thosas, which they times linked
with the five elements earth, water, fire, air, and space.

Speaker 3 (37:06):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
Yeah, I'm just reading through here. I don't see any
mention of the Chinese so far. The concept of humors
chemical systems regulating human behavior became more prominent in the
writing of medical theorists al Cameon of Croton five forty
to five hundred BC. His list of humors was longer
and included fundamental elements described by Empedocles, such as the

(37:33):
elements Hippo I almost said hypocrites again. Hippocrates usually credited
with applying this idea to medicine. In contrast to Alchemion,
Hippocrates suggested that humans are the vital fluids blood, flim, yellow, bile,
and black bile, and so you know, I don't want
to just go through and give you his idea of

(37:54):
what it was, but basically his ideas were still used
till very recently. There was a YouTube video I was
telling Julie about this earlier, where a guy would have
his patients piss and he would smell their pea. First,

(38:15):
he would look at it to see the colors, and
then he would taste it. And one guy said he
was depressed, brought his pea to him and he looked
at it, tasted it, and he said it was too
sweet and it had a slight red tint to it.
So he recommended the man, this is what I thought

(38:38):
was hilarious, drink a little less red wine and quit
eating vegetables because vegetables are overall bad for your health.
This is exactly what he told the guy. And this
was not This was like filmed, so we're talking very modern,
and this was the he was used. That was what
he told this one patient, office piss, office piss.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
He's drank one too many. Now that's that is humorous,
did it?

Speaker 1 (39:12):
It is? And I wonder what my pea would taste like.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
Well, I'm telling you right now since I've been yours.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
Pregnant pee has got to be the best.

Speaker 3 (39:20):
Oh, it is funky.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
It is funked. He doesn't even need asparagus and that's
what it smells like.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
Yeah, I want. He probably tell me I needed to
be if he tasted in my.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
Peet, you're pregnant upper puss there. It needs to be lobotomized.
I think so.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
I do think, even though we're making a joke of it,
that the bio system could have Well.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
It's like I was telling you earlier tonight, when you
look at the modern day understanding of the biome system,
the gut biome, the neurons that aren't just in your brain,
that they're in your abdomen. A lot of this has
a lot to do with like autism and other things. One,

(40:09):
so they had an understanding. And from what you're telling me,
And it's so funny that in all the research I
did on Hippocrates, I was never laid back or laid back.
I was never led back to ancient China.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
So but that's what they were doing with the acupuncture
is like they were damining the fluids.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
Ancient Chinese medicine is practiced in all ways today, like even.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
Ancient Chinese medicine that somebody recommended about turning a breach baby.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
Yes, So my son's mom had some difficulties at the
end of the pregnancy, which led her to the hospital
where they gave her an ultrasound that she hadn't had
one since twenty weeks, and they saw that my son
was breach. So they were deciding what to do about it.
They can't do a delivery, they have to do a

(40:58):
C section. And the oldest doctor, the oldest obie at
this place, like this old white, crusty dude, said, I
know that about this thing that works well over eighty
percent of the time, and it's an ancient Chinese remedy.
And he says, go to an acupuncturist, tell them what's

(41:20):
going on. They'll give you this incense stick called Maxia,
and you get it red hot and hold it right
outside her big toe, each side of her big toe
for like five minutes each and it's like burning her.
But as soon as we started doing it, she could
feel him start to turn, and within like a week

(41:43):
he was fully you know, head down, facing the right way.
So again, and they were they were ready to schedule
a sea section over this and all we had to
do was burn a little fucking woo woo incense. Shit.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
That's why I say a lot of these people are
ripping off ancient Chinese medicine.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
They're ripping it off. I mean he even called it that. Yeah,
Hippocrates may have been ripping it off, but this guy
said this is an ancient Chinese remedy.

Speaker 3 (42:13):
Yeah, I'm talking about Hippocrates because he's credited with the
bile system.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Or like Hypocrates. Yeah, hypocrite with.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
Titties, fucking phony tease.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
But yeah, I agree. It's always some affluent European person
who gets the credit. I mean, he's like the Kurt
Cobain of the you know, of the doctor's back.

Speaker 3 (42:37):
Does it make you want to get acupuncture? No, you
don't have any ailments.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
You want to see if it fixes I mean, if
it can cure my hernia.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
Well I doubt it. But you know who else got
acupuncture and it really fixed them up?

Speaker 1 (42:54):
Are they them? Dexter in the news the Dog? No? Oh?

Speaker 3 (43:00):
In the new season?

Speaker 1 (43:01):
Oh Dexter. Yes he did get acupuncture. He was a
little stiff from taking a chest shut. Spoiler alert for
nobody who's caught.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
Up but if you're not caught up, you're not a
true fan, because we'd be waiting for them episodes to drop.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
We're gonna watch the new one right after we get
done recording. Yes, so happy they do sponsor the show.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
By the way, I would be down for a sponsored
by Dexter.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
From Paramount Plus. How fucking dare you? They can Stephen
Colbert because Trump said he's not funny.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
How about Persia, let's do it. You know anything about Persia?

Speaker 1 (43:37):
They have weird looking cats.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
Well, they also were not as advanced as some of
the other civilizations we've talked about. They were under the
assumption that everybody was possessed by the devil.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
Well, oh, that's more along your line of thinking.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
Well, yeah, but I would I'm still on board with
like the ancient Chinese view. It was like a little
bit spiritual, little bit physical, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Pretty good e merging the two.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
Yeah, well, the Persia is pretty much behind the times.
They thought that it was evil spirits and that everybody's
possessed by the devil. And to release these spirits they
used trepidation, which is just drilling holes in people's skull
and they said it would allow the spirits to leave
the body. What are your thoughts on that.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
I think the trepanation is interesting and I actually have
a little info on it because to me, it was
like the stepping stone to the lobotomy.

Speaker 3 (44:40):
Well, it was the ancient lobotomy.

Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yeah. They didn't mess with the brain though. No, but
if you drill yeah, like I said, this is like
just the tip of the dick end. This isn't like
full on lobotomy. This is yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
But in some of these cultures that practiced trepidation, if
they didn't have a way to drill a hole, they
would just use a rock and scrape at your scalp
and your skull until they made a bur hole. Does
that sound I mean, does that sound fun to you?

Speaker 1 (45:15):
Uh? I don't think so. Trepening also known as trepanation, trepanation, trefening,
or making a burhole with a rock if you ain't
got nothing else. It says it derives from Old French
and medieval Latin from Greece. Once again, they don't give

(45:36):
the Persians their day. But this fucking went on for
a long time. Yes it did. And there's a picture
of a skull. I think it's kind of ironic that
when you get a neuralin ink implanted in your brain,
there's a robot that drills through your skull, stops just

(46:01):
short of hitting your brain, and then they can insert
the nanotech that forms the webs, connects all your neurons,
or whatever the fuck that thing does. But it's interesting
to me that Elon drills into people's skulls to save us,
help us merge with the AI.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
It's like we've reverted back to ancient.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah, we've we've taken this technocratic leap, but still incorporating
the old and you call it a birhole. And Elon
has the boring company raebores into the earth.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
That that I actually want to talk about a little
bit more after this next ancient culture, So leave that up.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
I mean, they're they're attributing trepanation to ancient China.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
Oh, they'll give them their spotlight with the negative stuff.
But how about the bio system.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
Well yeah, and they're still not talking about persia at all.

Speaker 3 (47:10):
Well, good thing I did thorough research because they were
definitely practicing it.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Yeah, I gotta admit I heard about trepanation and then
went right to Wikipedia.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
Did you really?

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (47:23):
Well, the next culture that I have you might find interesting.
Israel and the Hebrew dispera.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Man, they haven't been getting any coverage in the press.

Speaker 3 (47:33):
Let's do it despara? Is it despara? Dispora? Yeah, dispora despara.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
Well, anyways, dyspora, it's spelled like dispora.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
I let's just say Israel and the hebrews okay uh.
There are passages of the Old Testament that have been
interpreted as describing mood disorders in figures, which is Job
King Saul, and in the Psalms of David.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
I mean, these motherfuckers were literally hearing voices all the time.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
And in the Book of Daniel, King Nebukanesser is described
as temporarily losing his sanity and eating grass and shit
and thought he was a cow or something. And nobody
so nobody really talks about mental illness in the Bible
other than just demon possession. But I remember when I

(48:33):
was little, there was even a song in Sunday School
about King nebukan Nezer eating grass and shit and being
a crazy motherfucker. So even in the Bible there is oh,
and you know what, Job was a depressed asshole. But
then again, his life was real shitty, so we can

(48:53):
just imagine, but mental illness, yeah, I would say the Bible,
nobody was doing any bio system or acupuncture. It was
pretty much like the Persians.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
So yeah, prepanation basically is opening up the skull so
that evil spirits can vacate the premises.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
I think they didn't practice that in the Old Testy.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
I mean maybe they did. I think they They're obsessed
with circumcision and other things, but I mean in this
it's talking about ways that you can do it. Rectangular intersecting, cuts, scraping,
using utilizing an abrasive instrument such as flint.

Speaker 3 (49:41):
I told you they would.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
Yeah, circular grooving, boring and cutting by a circular trefen
or a crown saw. Bur hole done by drilling several
circle holes, and that's probably the more modern. If they're
drilling closely to create a space and then cut chisel
the bone between the hole.

Speaker 3 (49:59):
It was not a good day to be mentally ill
in ancient history.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
I'm just saying it will You're right, never really got better.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
So general trends in ancient views, supernatural explanations, right, spirits, deities,
God's demons, treatments were rituals, prayers, exorcisms, blood letting, and trephanation. Right,

(50:30):
but before we get into some more of the medieval treatments,
I just want to talk about the potential of positive
outcomes of some of these treatments. Yes, they sowned barbaric
to us now, but in a way, I almost feel
like pharmaceuticals are potentially more toxic and dangerous than let's say,

(50:52):
blood letting. Yeah, I know that sounds controversial, but could
it be possible that Ane, we're curing more mental illness
than we are now.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Yeah, I mean I would I was going to say
this earlier, but I think now's a good time to say.
I would say the darkest shit that has happened happened
after we transitioned from this belief in strictly supernatural causes
to today making it a more medical issue. I would say,

(51:26):
after we switched to that collectively, that that's when the
real dark shit started happening. I agree, Oh, yeah, you
might end up with a couple holes in your skull,
But think about.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
Something like blood letting. I know that sounds horrible, what
if it was curing these people?

Speaker 1 (51:44):
I mean, I think that a lot of the under right,
I would say a lot of the basic understanding of
the way the human body works is probably closer to
what we're doing these days. You're talking pharmaceuticals. Uh, I
don't know. I don't want to get into it in
this episode so much. But right, there's an industry built

(52:09):
around mental illness, which you talked about, and there's a
fetishization and normalization of being mentally ill anxiety, right, I mean, look,
every fucking pop star now is expected to come out
with some kind of disorder and face it head on,

(52:32):
or look at some own Biles to get back to Bile.
You know who she is, Yeah, the gymnast who queathed
the chance away to perform in the Olympics because she
was having a mental health date, which anyway, Yeah, I
think that just lays the ground for some conversation in

(52:53):
the next episode. But yeah, back to your point, it
could very well be that the risks and the outcomes
of ancient methods of treating or confronting mental illness may
seem barbaric, but if you hold it up to what
we're doing today, I don't think it really does.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
Let me ask you this. Let's just say you had
a problem mental illness problem that we'll say, you're not
all the way fucking mad hatter, but you have.

Speaker 1 (53:24):
To do we even need to pretend.

Speaker 3 (53:27):
Exactly, just be yourself. And you have two options. You
can go to the ancient Egyptian clinic, the ancient Chinese clinic.
You can go to a modern day Laurel Wood or
whatever the fuck they're called, these insane camps for people therapy, whatever,

(53:51):
Or you can be treated by a primary care physician
that has some kind of contract with who were the
ones who came up with They had the Dope Sick documentary,
Purdue Purdue Family, So they got a you got a
primary care physician with the contract with the Purdue pharmaceuticals,

(54:13):
you got Laurel Wood encampment, ancient Chinese or ancient egypt Well,
what are you gonna go with?

Speaker 1 (54:20):
If I want some opiates? Obviously I go with the
Purdue link.

Speaker 3 (54:25):
But they also had antidepressants and they had yeah, I
mean the big money and the big scandal came in
the painkillers, but they had their fingers and all of it.

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Uh, you know, obviously I'm more of a holistic guy,
and I don't think serotonin and dopamine are understood as
well as they have claimed it is, and I think
the crap shoot that has resulted in a lot of backlash,
a lot of fucking what would you call it blowback

(54:58):
with side effects that are indirect opposition to what they're
trying to do as far as treating these things with pills.
And then there's the talk therapy end of it, which
are a lot.

Speaker 3 (55:12):
Of times the Laurel Wood Encampment.

Speaker 1 (55:14):
A lot of time does lead to the pharmaceutical line anyway,
because they often are contracted with these people as well.
We're just taught that that's the way to do it,
and they believe it themselves.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
Addition, into these encampments where you have to stay for
an extended period of time and installation and you get
talk therapy. But out of those four, like which one?
Who are you trusting?

Speaker 1 (55:39):
I mean, I'm going ancient China all day. Yeah, same,
give me some egg rolls on my way out the door.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
You know, they still have a better view on treating
mental illness today in China than we do in the US.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
Well they better because they have a fucking whole population
of subservient just fall in line because it's that or death.
So they probably do have a large amount of mental illness.

Speaker 3 (56:07):
But they treat it differently than we do.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
How do they treat it currently?

Speaker 3 (56:11):
Well, it's less about the pharmaceuticals. I will tell you
that it's not marketed to them the way it is
in the US. There are literally commercials that we watch
in between our Hulu shows. That's like, are you depressed?
They don't have that in China.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
I pay for no commercials.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
But you know what I'm saying though, it's like it's
marketed to us, like, if you're having a bad are
you a little blue?

Speaker 1 (56:36):
Ask your doctor about after a lacreef with sauce. They
don't have that. Well, it's only us in New Zealand
who are allowed to advertise pharmaceuticals first of all, which
is kind of random that it's New Zealand. I mean,
I understand our culture and that saysn't surprise me at all.

(56:56):
I don't know a lot about the kiwis. They share
work CONTs during COVID.

Speaker 3 (57:01):
Yeah, well fuck them.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
Everybody down and that sorry Drew missing other than you.

Speaker 3 (57:07):
I'm just saying that I think the ancients may, even
though their treatments sound barbaric, may have had a better
idea of how to deal with this than we do now.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
Well, I think you know another angle of it is
the Egyptian model might look the most appealing because they
don't jump right to intervention. They are like Jordan Peterson,
like clean your room, twelve rules for living, go outside,
go to a concert. Yeah, take some xenax. It worked

(57:41):
out well for me. No. They they're really about like
it's an environmental dysfunction that is leading to most of
this melancholy. So they exhaust all possibilities before they go
to some of these drastic measures. So how about I
give you a hybrid. I'd like the Egyptian model where
if they still think I'm crazy after I go to

(58:02):
a concert and do a self portrait, then I can
get the Chinese remedies.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
Hey, there you go.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
So I want a little miss mixing math.

Speaker 3 (58:12):
Yeah yeah, well, and you know what about you. I
I'll take what you just said.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
Hey you get copy me.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
Well it was a good it was a good idea.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
Okay, you can come with me to the So.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
Think that the Egyptians could have focused a just a
little bit more like the like with ancient Chinese medicine
on maybe like the acupuncture stuff, getting your organs figured out,
your biosystem figured out, because you know, when you're sick,
what do you do, Like when you blow in your
tissue and you're like, oh, it's clear. At least I
don't have an infection.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Yeah, when that black when that black bile shit comes out?

Speaker 3 (58:48):
You've never seen black bile? Are they talking about shit?

Speaker 1 (58:52):
I guess because when sometimes when you get diarrhea, you
get that real weird looking bile.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
Well, if you have blood in your stool, it can
sometimes be black, you know, and yet your liver's messed up,
or you have a blooded in.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
Your it's like a dark brown dead blood cell color,
which could be interpreted as black. While sure they.

Speaker 3 (59:15):
They literally say look for black or bloody stools when
you know, with some medical condition. Anyways, I do think
there's a physical and mental aspect that needs to be addressed.
But I do want to move on to medievil treatments.
If you are if you're.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
Down medieval treatments.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
Starting with Europe, do you have any of.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
I've got a list of more modern not so modern,
but way more modern than medieval. So if you want
to take this one, and if I have any thing
I saw I could, I could insert.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
Well, I would love your commentary on some of this,
because Europe is really where this whole thing starts to
reach a pinnacle of fucked up idness, because you know,
they take all the cool stuff from all the other
ancient cultures and to it they add torture to it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
It's just because it's medieval. I just assume that's where
we're going to basically do so because some of the
ship that we're doing in more modern than I'm going
to cover seems medieval. Well, I'm curious to see if
there's any open.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
Clap or yeah, well so medieval treatments in Europe. Uh so.
Conceptions of madness in the Middle Ages in Europe were
a mixture of the divine, diabolical, magical, and transcendental. But
they also use hippocrates theory of the four humors.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
Hey, you just said it was his theory. What are
you doing?

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
It's not right. They use the ancient Chinese theory of
the yep. Black bio, yellow bioflm, and blood were UH
used in injunction with faith healing in the Middle Ages
touching hands. They also used UH treppening or whatever trepanation.

(01:01:10):
The Jeff Dahmer treatment.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
It just depends on where you're looking. It's either treppin
or trepin.

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
They also used blood letting, whipping people to death, and burges.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
They're big on that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
Yeah, And it was seen because the Middle Ages in
Europe was predominantly Christian. It was seen as most likely
being a spiritual issue. And so they would do the fasting,
which can be beneficial, just saying fasting can be beneficial.
But then they would use the whipping and then the trepidation.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
Is those whips like they used on Jesus with the little.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
The little cattails. Yeah, like in Da Vinci code. Yeah.
So if none of those other treatments would work, the
last ditch thing they would do is an ex So
what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
Well, at least they tried all other options before they
called in the exorcist. I guess, get your cattail whipping.
If that doesn't do it, call in fucking what's his
name from the exorcist?

Speaker 3 (01:02:16):
Yeah, father O'Malley.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Father O'Malley's here to exercise your dam. I don't know
why whenever I say father O'Malley always comes after. It's
just a part of who I am.

Speaker 3 (01:02:31):
So there was a dude named Bartholomew something.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
Or other, poor guy for follow me something or other.
You think the kids made fun of him.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
This was in Europe, in the Middle Ages, and he
comprised an encyclopedia. It's called something or other rectum and.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
I'm not in another rectum. Let's do this. They propeteb
tyab is a ridom. It's not even a rectum, smartass,
it's r e Are you in rerum?

Speaker 3 (01:03:03):
So it's an encyclopedia.

Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
It's really that you can call her rectum.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
It's a rect He wrote this rectum of mental illness, okay,
And he distinguished between a natural born idiot that's what
they were called, and uh a lunatic. And the term
lunatic was applied to those with short periods of mental
disorder temporary insanity, right, deriving from.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Only when the moon came out.

Speaker 3 (01:03:34):
Well, the reason he used it is because in Roman
mythology they would describe people as being moonstruck by the
goddess Luna.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
Good movie with moonstruck? Is that? Sure? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
But anyways, the theory was the influence of the moon.
And he said these people with short term madness were
lunatics and everybody else was just a natural born idiot.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
Good good distinguishment, which.

Speaker 3 (01:04:06):
Brings me to the episodes of mass dancing mania, which
are reported from the Middle Ages.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
To talk about this recently on an episode.

Speaker 3 (01:04:16):
The Dancing Man, Yeah, well it's similar to they were
referred to as lunatics.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
But this this thing, maybe it was a cult. It
might have actually been a cult conspiracy episode.

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
I think it was were we talking about this?

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
It wasn't It wasn't us. It was Jacob and Jonathan
Shout Out Boys. They talked about it. I'm pretty fucking sure.
Maybe it was Sam Tripley. I don't remember, but this
was like one of the Oh I came across this
when we were doing our cult.

Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
Research the Dancing play. Yes, there was a laughing one too.

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
Yeah, and you remember in Legion where.

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
That was I think that was based on that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
So, but what do you think about that there's dancing plagues,
laughing plagues.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
I mean, well, I wasn't gonna do it in this episode,
but I think collective insanity is something that is still.

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
Rampant mass hysteria.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
Well yeah, but even just collective insanity before like, what's
his ass? Robert Malone gave it a name that the
CIA told him to say, mass psychotic delusion or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
I think anybody knows what the fuck was really going
on though, with what the dancing plague?

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
No, that's not mass hysteria. It's legion. It's like a contagion. Yes,
like I mentally agree with you. It's like little girls
becoming boys because everybody in there click did it? Yeah,
but I heard about this and it's come up again
in podcasts I've listened to. But yeah, I totally forgot
about it till you mentioned it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
Well, they call it mass delusion or mass hysteria, but
I don't think anybody knows what the fuck was going on.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
Maybe they maybe they just felt like dancing.

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
Well this this bartholomist said they were just lunatics.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
Botholomy is something or other coming in with the explanation
the moon made them do the moon.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
Made him do it. But that's a little of an
understanding they had about stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
You know. It's like, when you get about it, maybe
they all took ecstasy.

Speaker 3 (01:06:18):
They are were they seeing plagues in different parties?

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
They could have been eaten sassafras, But there were.

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
Dancing plgues with people who should have not even known
about each other.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Like, yeah, I mean, you know how my mind works,
I'm thinking, like mass glitch in the simulation, for some reason,
groups of people all over the world just feel like dancing.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
Really, that's your explanation, Well, what's yours? Mine is, uh,
I'm just exploring.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
I'm not dying on that hill.

Speaker 3 (01:06:55):
Mine is that they've been conducting experiments on small civilizations
people for longer than we day, the elusive.

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
Day, like the secret societies, the old people. I mean,
I'm not obviously I'm not above that line of reasoning either.
I think that that that's just as probable as the
simulation glitch.

Speaker 3 (01:07:21):
But so that was just one form of lunacy. Obviously,
the lunatics could have been anything like a random outburst,
the random you know whatever. They'd be like, oh, they're
a lunatic whatever. So the care of these natural born idiots,
I'm guessing that that means retarded people and uh, people

(01:07:46):
who had temporary madness, lounies. They were under the responsibility
of their family because at the time there was nothing
to do with these people. Your family had to take
care of you. So there were like spiritual and visionary

(01:08:09):
insights some bullshit like this, and hallucinations that these people
were having. They were still thinking it was like a
spiritual thing that these loonies and whatever they were trying
to gain some type of insight, and the families were
having to take care of them.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
It started to.

Speaker 3 (01:08:31):
Switch with the witch hunts because they decided that they
could just kill people that were loonies and they didn't
need to gain any spiritual insight from them, that it
would be much easier for all of them to just die.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
I mean, that is, as history breathes in and out,
a solution that has come up again time and time.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Yeah. So at first it was like their families were
taking care of them. They were trying to figure out
what was wrong with them, they were trying to get
some kind of spiritual insight. Then the witch hunts came about, and.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Then they went to purge. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
They were like, oh you're a witch, well we'll just
drowned you. Oh you're a luney, well we'll just drowned you,
burn you alive. Whatever, Just trying to basically take out
the trash, and when that didn't work, they would take
the lunatics and the idiots or whatever they were calling

(01:09:27):
them to workhouses and poor houses and sometimes to these
quote unquote new private mad houses. And so this is
where the whole mad house thing became.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
It's a mad house. Yeah, I'm glad we're switching into
this area because I think the story really gets interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
With the mad houses. Yeah, me too, Right, so it
goes witch hunt. Let's kill them all, just kidding. We
can't kill all of them.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
S built filing cabinets for this.

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
Let's build. And also if they were what they were
referred to as a natural born idiot, they could still
work in the workhouses and they could get some use
out of them or in the poorhouses. And they were
having these like mentally disabled people like building stuff around
town and like not paying them.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
And let explain some construction.

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
Well, no, think about it, Like what if somebody was
just like barely like they were forced gup, you could
get them a fucking job doing stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
Or because you told me to drill, sergeant.

Speaker 3 (01:10:37):
So by the mid nineteenth century, there would be one
hundred to five hundred inmates, as they called them, in
each madhouse.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
Well that's an accurate description what inmates.

Speaker 3 (01:10:52):
Yeah, they weren't called patients. They weren't called they were
called inmates. You know. So by the mid nineteen cent.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
They hadn't really cleaned up up the language yet, like.

Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
We do that. Yeah, well they're still in mass right.

Speaker 1 (01:11:04):
This is an in treatment facility. It is not a prison,
even though prisons are way fucking better to go to.

Speaker 3 (01:11:12):
Yeah, I know a lot of cases. So the development
of this network of madhouses has been linked to new capitalists,
social relations, and a service economy that meant families were of.

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
That explains McDonald's. What McDonald's. There's always a retard sweeping
the floor at McDonald's.

Speaker 3 (01:11:36):
They retards at goodwill and all.

Speaker 1 (01:11:39):
Kinds of good will too.

Speaker 3 (01:11:40):
Yeah, but that would be their workhouse in the mid.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying, Like there's still places there. Then,
well what do you think they're making well?

Speaker 3 (01:11:53):
And anyways, these these mad houses meant families were off
the hook and not responsible for having to look after these.

Speaker 1 (01:12:03):
That's why cabinets. Yeah, so mad.

Speaker 3 (01:12:09):
Madness and the whole like mad houses thing suddenly became
a trend and was commonly depicted in literary works, like
with Shakespeare. It was kind of a fad like how
it is now like everybody's got some type of mental illness.
Everybody's like putting it out there. Like they were literally

(01:12:31):
commercializing the mad house mid nineteenth century. And this is when,
in my opinion, it went completely from therapeutic spiritualism possible
you know, trepening and blood letting and prayers and all that.
Forget it. When they developed the concept of the mad house,

(01:12:54):
it went strictly to medicine. So this is where you
can jump in how whenever you.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
Well, I'm kind of sad to say that we've passed
the opportunity for me to talk about the wondering womb.
What's the wondering Well, maybe we'll fit it in because yes,
because I want to think like hysteria will come up.
It does, okay, but we'll slip this article in there.
But I have a lot on the mad house institution

(01:13:24):
and uh thing, and I want to start here because
even though when we think of these places today, we're
not thinking of like a bright, cheery place, you have
experiences with these places. Yes, I do you get triggered
by you know?

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:13:43):
These and two of American's poor story and like one
flew over the Cuckoo's nest. So we'll talk about all
of that in episode three. So don't think we're gonna
leave pop culture out of this. But I want to
start with an article about the first documented mental institution,

(01:14:04):
as we will call them, but they called it a
psychiatric word in the article.

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):
Is this a mad house?

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
This is a psychiatric word, the first one on record,
and it was in of all places, Muslim territory in
Baghdad ninth century AD. So we're going way back. And
you'll be surprised by this article because I heard that
the first mental institution was in Baghdad in ninth century

(01:14:33):
a D. And my curiosity was piqued, so I looked
into it. And this is an article from the American
Journal of Psychiatry Residence Journal. That's a little that's a
little redundant American Journal of Psychiatry Residence Journal. The title

(01:14:54):
of the article is Mohammad ibbin Zachariah al Razzi in
the first psychiatric word. Mohammed ibn Zachariah al Razzi. We're
gonna have to shorten that. Let us call him moy
was one of the most well known and respected physicians
during the ninth century AD. Because of his revolutionary contributions

(01:15:15):
to medicine and psychiatry, mo influenced several medical fields, including pharmacology, pediatrics, neurology,
psychosomatic medicine, and medical ethics. He purified alcohol ethanol and
pioneered its use in medicine. I mean this is ninth
century AD. He rejected the notion of the mind body

(01:15:39):
dichotomy and considered mental health and self esteem as significant
factors that affect a person's health and well being. With
the idea of sound mind in a healthy body, he
was able to help many of his patients to attain
complete health. He was one of the first known physicians
to describe the idea of psychotherapy. He used psychotherapy in

(01:16:02):
a primitive but dynamic form in his practice. Muh was
born in eight sixty five AD in Al Ray, which
is located located outside Tehran. During his youth, he moved
to Baghdad, where he undertook medical studies and later practiced
at one of the local hospitals. The governor of Ray,
Monsieur ebin Eshak, later appointed him to head to hospital

(01:16:25):
in Baghdad. Mul wrote two hundred and thirty seven books
in his lifetime. Thirty six of which are still available today.
The most popular of his writings, Liber Continents, is considered
a medical encyclopedia. His books offered explanations for various mental
illnesses that plague society society during the tenth century. These
books also outlined symptoms and definitions, as well as differential

(01:16:48):
diagnoses and treatments for debt.

Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
This was in the tenth century. Yeah, so this was
even before what I got.

Speaker 1 (01:16:57):
Yeah, this goes way back, which is why I was
compared held by it, because obviously this model did come back,
but it was already here and left. While working as
the director of hospital in Baghdad, Mo introduced the concept
of psychiatric words as a place to care for patients
with mental illness. According to his views, mental disorders should

(01:17:18):
be considered and treated as medical conditions. He conducted very
detailed clinical observations of patients with psychiatric conditions and provided
treatment with diet, medication, occupational therapy, aroma therapy, baths, and
music therapy. Additionally, he practiced an early form of cognitive
therapy for obsessive behavior. Mo described depression as a melancholic,

(01:17:43):
obsessive compulsive disorder which is triggered as a result of
changes of blood flow in the brain. He stated that
physicians should always try to convince their patients of the
possibility of improvement in their condition, as well as hope
in the effectiveness of treatment. As part of this charge planning,
patients were given a sum of money to help with
their immediate needs and their transition back into society. To

(01:18:06):
our knowledge, this is the first recorded reference to psychiatric aftercare.
Moe believed that physicians should be modest, soft spoken, and
gentle when communicating with their patients to ease the anxiety
of receiving unfavorable views and unfavorable news. He stressed the
importance of communicating with patients on a personal level, rather
than simply making them aware of their illness. He used

(01:18:29):
a cheerful countenance and encouraged words to instill in patients
the hope of recovery. Both psychiatric residents and trainees alike
can learn from Moe's approach to serving patients with compassion
and an understanding. He is a valuable source of inspiration
from the history of psychiatry with his original work and
distinct style.

Speaker 3 (01:18:51):
Well, that's nothing like what I was going to talk about.

Speaker 1 (01:18:54):
No, I just wanted to insert this because we're talking
about the first documented psychiatric word slash institutions.

Speaker 3 (01:19:05):
He's going off of like what we talked about with
the Egyptians and the Chinese, like taking care of people.

Speaker 1 (01:19:13):
And he's even before that move into like an intreatment,
just before.

Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
The move into what I was going to bring.

Speaker 1 (01:19:22):
Up, well nineteen but yeah, what I'm saying, and I
think I think it's important that we show a success
from well, yeah, that fucking long ago, because.

Speaker 3 (01:19:31):
That you were about to read the Horrides.

Speaker 1 (01:19:33):
Thing when I and I'll just say this is my
preconceived bias. When I saw bag Dad ninth century a D.
I was expecting torture chambers, which is more for the Yeah,
come up, and that's more akin to what we have today.
Just to show you that fucking what, nine hundred years

(01:19:54):
after Christ they had this shit figured out in the
fucking Middle East.

Speaker 3 (01:19:59):
Well, that's very interesting and.

Speaker 1 (01:20:00):
We're still working our way back to that. I mean,
he even had like a government social program for these
people when they let them give them money.

Speaker 3 (01:20:07):
Yeah, but why do you think if that was if
that happened in the tenth century, when we get to
the nineteenth century, it's a complete contrast.

Speaker 1 (01:20:20):
Well, I'll just sum it up with the last paragraph.
Whoever wrote this article said both psychiatric residents and trainees
alike can learn from his approach to serving patients with
compassion and understanding, and that was not present in these
institutions that we're going to get into today. And I mean,

(01:20:40):
I think that contributing factors are a mile high. The
economy of the time, the mental attitude of.

Speaker 3 (01:20:48):
Took a nose dive after that as a society.

Speaker 1 (01:20:52):
Yeah, I mean, let's get into it, because I have
an article. It's not even an article, it's just basically
a chart that shows when this shit came to America.
But I think you're gonna start talking about like kind
of Europe and shit first, right with the madhouses.

Speaker 3 (01:21:08):
Well, because well, let me just start with this. What
that article you just read that was the tenth century.
Right by the time we get to the nineteenth century,
we've taken a fucking nosedive into the abyss.

Speaker 1 (01:21:25):
Yeah, we're talking a thousand years. I'm just saying, like,
we could have figured, we could.

Speaker 3 (01:21:31):
Have had the chance to figure this out, and we
just always fuck ourselves.

Speaker 1 (01:21:36):
The compassion and the understanding and the model is absent.

Speaker 3 (01:21:40):
So by the uh nineteenth century, these public asylums, as
they were called, were absolutely barbaric. The most popular, most
notable one is called bedlam. Had you ever heard of it?

Speaker 1 (01:21:59):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:22:01):
So they would actually let spectators pay a penny to
watch inmates be tortured as some form of entertainment.

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
Not shocked.

Speaker 3 (01:22:14):
I'm gonna dive a little bit further into that when
we get to talking about the asylums themselves. But so
the nineteenth century, in the context of industrialation, industrialization, and
population growth, saw a massive expansion of the number and
size of insane asylums in every Western country, in a

(01:22:39):
process called the Great Confinement or the Asylum Era. So
that's when it came to the US. Is that what
you got?

Speaker 1 (01:22:50):
I have seventeen fifty two?

Speaker 3 (01:22:53):
So is that in the nineteenth century.

Speaker 1 (01:22:57):
Nineteenth century would be like eighteen hundreds.

Speaker 3 (01:23:03):
Really, Yeah, So that's what I got was the Asylum era.

Speaker 1 (01:23:10):
Yeah. So the Asylum era is eighteen ninety, so we're
talking ten years before the nineteenth or the Yeah, let
me just break this down because if we're moving into
America now, which it looks like we are on your notes. Yes,

(01:23:33):
so this is from the National Library of Medicine. It
is a dot gov website, so do with that with
what you will. This is the timeline of early psychiatric
hospitals and asylums. The mentally ill and early America communities
were generally cared for by family members. However, in severe

(01:23:53):
cases they sometimes ended up in almshouses or jails. Because
mental illness was generally thought to be caused by a
moral or spiritual failing, punishment and shame were often handed
down to the menially ill and sometimes their families as well.
As the population grew in certain areas became more densely settled,
mental illness became one of the number became one of

(01:24:16):
a number of social issues for which community institutions were
created in order to handle the needs of individuals collectively.
So we have seventeen fifty two in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The
Quakers in Philly were the first in America to make
an organized effort to care for the menially ill. The
newly opened Pennsylvania Hospital in Philly provided rooms in the basement,

(01:24:39):
complete with shackles attached to the walls, to house a
small number of mentally ill patients. Within a year or two,
the Press for admissions required additional space, and award was
opened beside the hospital. Eventually, a new Pennsylvania hospital for
the insane was opened in a suburb in eighteen fifty
six and remained opened under different names until nineteen ninety eight.

(01:25:02):
Then we moved to seventeen seventy three Williamsburg, Virginia, to
deal with mentally disturbed people who were causing problems in
the community. The Virginia legislature provided funds to build a
small hospital in Williamsburg. Over the years, the hospital grew
in size as needs arose, but remained within the historic
area of the city until the mid twentieth century, when

(01:25:22):
a new hospital was built in a suburb. Today it
is the Eastern State Hospital.

Speaker 3 (01:25:28):
It's still open. Yeah, I bet it's haunted.

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
Seventeen ninety two in New York, New York, the New
York Hospital opened a ward for curable insane patients. In
eighteen oh eight, a free standing medical facility was built
nearby for the humane treatment of the mentally ill, and
in eighteen twenty one, a larger facility called the blooming
Dell Asylum was built in in what is now the
Upper West Side the Uppavast Side in eighteen ninety four,

(01:25:55):
it has moved further away to the suburb of White
Plains and it is currently under opper is the Paine
Whitney Westchester Hospital, a division of the New York Hospital
Cornell Whale Medical Center.

Speaker 3 (01:26:09):
All of these places were, despite the description, completely brutal
to this.

Speaker 1 (01:26:17):
Well, it didn't hold back. In the Philadelphia well, they.

Speaker 3 (01:26:22):
All were doing it.

Speaker 1 (01:26:24):
It was complete with shackles attached to the walls.

Speaker 3 (01:26:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:28):
Eighteen seventeen, Philadelphia were going back to Philly. In Philadelphia,
the Asylum for the Relief of Persons Deprived of the
use of their reason. They really worded up, yeah, was
opened under Quaker auspices as a private mental hospitals. It
continues to serve this function to this day as the
Friends Hospital. Come hang out with your friends. You can

(01:26:51):
have a warm glass of shit. The hell app eighteen
twenty four, Julia's home state of Lexington, Kentucky. The Eastern
Don a tick asylum that's a little less worthy than
the last one, was opened in Lexington, KY as the
first mental institution west of the Appalachians. It still operates

(01:27:12):
today under the name Eastern State Hospital. And then we
go to eighteen ninety with a broad sweeping statement all
across America. By eighteen ninety, every state had built one
or more publicly supported mental hospitals, which all expanded in
size as the country's population increased. By mid twentieth century,

(01:27:32):
the hospitals housed over half a million patients, but began
to diminish in a size as new methods of treatment
became available.

Speaker 3 (01:27:41):
Because this is what I'm talking about with the asylum
era stuff. They were beating people, whipping them, they were
chaining them up, they were starving them. I mean, I
know that article made it just sound like, Oh, they
opened hospitals and they were they were awful to those people. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:03):
And then if we get into some of the reasons
that you could have to go to one of these places,
it starts to ga even more bleak.

Speaker 3 (01:28:10):
Uh Yeah, like being.

Speaker 1 (01:28:12):
Gay, having a father who's an alcoholic, being black, Yeah, Kanye.

Speaker 3 (01:28:22):
But actually it's during this era, thence the asylum era
eighteen seventy six to eighteen eighty, that the notion of
female hysteria became popularized. Are you familiar with female hysteria
and its treatment?

Speaker 1 (01:28:44):
Do you have any answer that?

Speaker 3 (01:28:45):
Honestly, no, let me just say what it is, because
I think I told you already. But so, the hysteria
was a medical diagnosis given to women exhibiting a wide
range of symptoms, including anxiety, depression, moods, wings, headaches, and

(01:29:05):
even fainting spells anxiety. The term itself derived from the
Greek word hysteria, meaning uterus. Uh. It was believed to
be linked to a woman's reproductive system and its wandering imbalances.

Speaker 1 (01:29:28):
And you said you didn't have this in your notes. No,
this is wandering. Yeah, yeah, you just said the uterus
and it's wandering in quotes or imbalances. So you know
about the wandering uterus?

Speaker 3 (01:29:42):
Is it the same?

Speaker 1 (01:29:44):
Did you read that right there? It is believed to
be linked to a woman's reproductive system, the uterus, and
it's wandering or imbalances. Yes, so I have the wandering.

Speaker 3 (01:29:56):
But what you're talking about You said it was ancient
Egypt or something.

Speaker 1 (01:30:00):
No, I said that Hippocrates talked about it. Well, this
was way act so, but they did look into it
back then, and I'll give an overview. I mean I
could pull up the article, but it's kind of seered
into my brain.

Speaker 3 (01:30:15):
God.

Speaker 1 (01:30:16):
Well, back in Hippocrates days. They fucking talked about how
everybody thought the uterus was like a living bean inside
of another bean, and they thought it was like an
animal that roamed and it was enticed by certain smells.
So like an overact of person's uterus was said to

(01:30:38):
have wondered too high, and they would entice it with
pleasant smells to get it back into the upper puss area.
And then oh my, if a woman was lethargic or
you know, not following orders, her uterus was said to
have wandered too low, so they'd put the enticing smells
down by the puss and try to get it come

(01:31:00):
back up. So this wondering uterus thing did originate a
long time ago, but they did bring it back.

Speaker 3 (01:31:10):
Why does everybody think?

Speaker 1 (01:31:12):
So that makes more sense about what you're about to
talk about. It's also like that theovont coult we were
talking about, what where they would like give them massages
and then give him a finger finish.

Speaker 3 (01:31:24):
Yeah, yeah, what is all these ancient cultures And even
in the eighteen eighties, it's like, oh, women are so crazy.
It's they're uterine.

Speaker 1 (01:31:35):
I mean, it is the missing link.

Speaker 3 (01:31:38):
But so the treatment for the female hysteria was a
pelvic massage.

Speaker 1 (01:31:45):
A front rub, hashtrag, what's his name?

Speaker 3 (01:31:50):
There is something I want to talk about with this.
It was part of a conversation we were having.

Speaker 1 (01:31:55):
But you need a front rub?

Speaker 3 (01:31:57):
No but so. Victorian doctors, sometimes assisted by midwives, performed
manual stimulation of female patients genitals to induce a hysterical paroxysm,
which is now recognized as an orgasm.

Speaker 1 (01:32:13):
I prefer the term hysterical parocism over female orgasm. That's
a myth.

Speaker 3 (01:32:23):
So this was supposed to alleviate hysteria, but as demand
for this treatment increase, doctors reportedly grew tired and developed
early vibrating devices to assist in the process. And these
devices were initially marketed as medical tools before transitioning to
personal use and so out of the asylum era, one

(01:32:47):
good thing came out of it, So fellers, the vibrator.

Speaker 1 (01:32:52):
If you come home late at night after working your
ass off for ten days solid and you see your
ladies vibrator plugged in, that bitch is crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:33:03):
It's a medical device.

Speaker 1 (01:33:04):
Hysteria.

Speaker 3 (01:33:05):
I have hysteria.

Speaker 1 (01:33:07):
Fucking what's it called self medication?

Speaker 3 (01:33:10):
You should feel sorry for me that I have a
medical problem.

Speaker 1 (01:33:14):
I was talking hypothetical. Did that never happened to us?

Speaker 3 (01:33:17):
Right, you're right, that never happened. But you remember what
you said? You said, can you imagine what the Victorian
era puss smelled like?

Speaker 1 (01:33:30):
That had nothing to do with this, Yes, it was.

Speaker 3 (01:33:33):
You said, can you imagine? Oh no, you said, the
reason that they had hysteria is because in the Victorian
era their husbands were too pump chumps and they weren't
going down on them because Victorian puss smelled Bud.

Speaker 1 (01:33:47):
I think you're tying a lot of different parts of
conversations together.

Speaker 3 (01:33:50):
Are you sure. I'm pretty sure. It's when we were talking,
I said, have you ever heard about I.

Speaker 1 (01:33:56):
Said that the husbands were too pump chumps.

Speaker 3 (01:34:00):
That's why they had hysteria.

Speaker 1 (01:34:02):
That's why they never got off. Yeah, hysteria could just
be labeled sexual or exprustration sctual frustration. They didn't have
the vibrating hogs back then. You had to use like
a stick, go find a perfectly shaped carrot in.

Speaker 3 (01:34:20):
The fridge, masturbated like, just as.

Speaker 1 (01:34:24):
Long as humans have been around, masturbation has been a thing.
Male masturbation, though all across the board, female male them's
these they.

Speaker 3 (01:34:33):
Have to go to the clinic because.

Speaker 1 (01:34:35):
It's just not the same unless someone else is doing it.

Speaker 3 (01:34:39):
Anyways, I think Victorian posts probably smelled better than modern
day puss. That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:34:45):
If you could get past the pubic care, which hey,
I'm not against the pibes.

Speaker 3 (01:34:50):
You know, it's supposed to be there for cleanliness reasons. Pubes, Yeah,
to keep stuff out.

Speaker 1 (01:34:57):
Oh yeah, those critters, Yeah, they get distracted by the jungle.

Speaker 3 (01:35:02):
That's that's what they say.

Speaker 1 (01:35:04):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:35:05):
Anyways, they sure had a heck of a lot cleaner diet.

Speaker 1 (01:35:10):
Than we have now, and the other pH was probably
a little bit more on point without all the refined
sugars and well.

Speaker 3 (01:35:17):
Also, what I was saying to you is, if you've
ever been into a public women's restroom, you will know
that there's no way a Victorian puss could smell worse
than a twenty twenty five puss.

Speaker 1 (01:35:31):
It's insane, a.

Speaker 3 (01:35:32):
Homeless twenty twenty five puss and all they eat is
like McDonald's and Taco bell and then they go into
the public restrooms to clean up. Smell one of those
pusses and tell me if you'd not rather have a Victorian.
Feel like we've strayed, good, all right, So we're talking

(01:35:53):
about the asylum era. So it was also around this
time numerous different classification schemes and diagnostic terms were developed
by different authorities taking an increasingly anatomical clinical descriptive approach.
And this is when the term psychiatry was coined. Which

(01:36:18):
they're saying that it wasn't until the nineteenth century that
the term psychiatry was coined, but your article was from
the tenth century.

Speaker 1 (01:36:29):
Yeah, but they were saying his approach falls under the psychiatry,
even though they weren't calling it that back then. They
were calling it baclava Muhammad Ali. Yeah, No, they weren't
calling it psychiatry. But they're just pointing out that they
clearly were practicing it, even though they didn't have the

(01:36:49):
same name for it.

Speaker 3 (01:36:51):
So in this era, the asylum superintendents later were renamed psychiatrists,
and they were they used to be called alienists because
they were thought to deal with people alienated from society,

(01:37:17):
but then they later became known as psychiatrists. But they
didn't actually have any medical training. They were just asylum superintendents.

Speaker 1 (01:37:28):
They're tratchet Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:37:30):
And that was the first psychiatrists. But so in the
United States, it was proposed that black slaves who tried
to escape had a mental disorder termed drape domainia drape domania,
which is the belief that slavery was such an improvement

(01:37:55):
upon the lives of slaves that only those suffering from
some form of mental illness would try to escape. So
what was the treatment for drape domania.

Speaker 1 (01:38:09):
Whippings?

Speaker 3 (01:38:11):
Uh to death.

Speaker 1 (01:38:11):
Actually, well, that'll cure it.

Speaker 3 (01:38:14):
Because apparently the you know, the treatment worked because they
never received any.

Speaker 1 (01:38:19):
Complaints and they never ran again. Good cures all around.

Speaker 3 (01:38:25):
But this is what you were talking about when you
said it became a little bit blurry as to why
people were getting admitted into the asylums. So if a
black slave tried to run away, they would say he
had drape domania and whip him to death in an asylum.

Speaker 1 (01:38:43):
Or if a woman didn't have dinner on the table
when her husband got home for work, she was hysterical.
So we will talk about once you get into these places,
good luck get now.

Speaker 3 (01:38:56):
Literally the slaves were just taken there to die and
they would say they had drake domania. So this is
where I was saying I agree with you. The line
between an it's insane person and just somebody you're trying
to get rid of. That line started to blur big
time during this era.

Speaker 1 (01:39:17):
Yeah, a lot of people would call other people mentally
insane if they just wanted to get them put away,
Like enemies could call you insane, and if they were
convincing enough, you were put in the filing cabinet.

Speaker 3 (01:39:33):
Yeah. So in Nazi Germany, the institutionalized mentally ill were
among the earliest targets of sterilization campaigns and covert euthanasia programs.
They should have been inducted into the Church of Euthanasia.
It's been estimated that over two hundred thousand individuals with

(01:39:56):
mental disorders of all kinds were put to death all
the so their mass murder has received relatively little historical attention.
And this is during the asylum era. So and now,
of course, Nazi Germany, are you kidding me? That was
like they already had like the death camps that was

(01:40:21):
for the Jews and the whatever. Whatever. It's like, if
they just don't like you, they'll put.

Speaker 1 (01:40:26):
You in a Yeah. I mean, well, I hate to
piss people off, but Jewish people like to have a
monopoly on what was going on back then, and they
were a part of it, no doubt about it. But
it was more of people over here funding a huge experiment. Yeah,

(01:40:47):
we can go to the Bush family and all of
the central banks funding this Nazi research that may not
have even been Nazi research, but they did take the
fall for it. There were camps, and yeah, I wasn't
just Jewish people. It was gay people, it was mentally
ill people, anybody who looked funnier, sounded funnier, you could,

(01:41:09):
you could end up in a place like this.

Speaker 3 (01:41:11):
So they literally had establishments for everyone eth asia programs,
they had sterilization programs.

Speaker 1 (01:41:20):
And it's almost like these concentration camps were a more
honest representation of what the mental institutions were doing too.
But it was a state sanctioned torture program, and yeah,
it continues to this day. So yeah, I mean, I
would say a lot of the treatments probably came right

(01:41:41):
out of that Nazierra.

Speaker 3 (01:41:43):
Yeah, sterilization, euthanasia, whipping, beating, change.

Speaker 1 (01:41:48):
I mean, there's a starving. There's a fuzzy line when
it comes to the history of the lobotomy, but I
guarantee you they tried to perfect in these camps.

Speaker 3 (01:41:57):
Okay, well I get that's the next thing I was,
did you have anything.

Speaker 1 (01:42:01):
For Well, yeah, I want to get into some of
these methods and we're going to finish on the lobotomy
and then we can swing it back to you. Okay,
but I have two short articles to read. This one
is from Saint Finnshospital dot com. Yeah, this just might
be some weird publication, but it's Saint Finnan's Hospital in

(01:42:25):
Killarney in Ireland. Looking back at some of the treatments.
You mean doing any Irish accent, I'd rather not looking back.
Here's my white guy accent. Looking back at some of
the treatments that were used to treat the mentally ill
in Ireland can be quite shocking. Usually there was a

(01:42:45):
rationale that drove the treatment strategy strategy, but today many
seem barbaric, dangerous, if not downright torturous. This article is
going to describe one of the homegrown treatments that gained
international use. William Saunders o'halahan o'halahan oh Hallaran was a

(01:43:05):
Cork physician who was the Medical Superintendent at the County
and City of Cork Lunatic Asylum for forty years. In
the early eighteen hundreds, he invented a circulating a circulating
swing to induce sleep in control over individuals with acute
mania or of obstinate nature. The patient was strapped into

(01:43:28):
a chair or hammock and swung around at a rate
of one hundred revolutions per minute, giving a massive rush
of blood to the head, intensifying emotions as anxiety and fear,
and causing physical symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, urination that
means pissing, and sometimes brain hemorrhage. No Biggie Holleran, being

(01:43:53):
a cute Corkman, realized that some of the mentally ill
patients just enjoyed the experience of the swinging and the
fun of being on it improved the mood. Therefore, Holleran
widened the use of the swing to a wider insanity diagnosis.

Speaker 3 (01:44:10):
Show the picture on the screen.

Speaker 1 (01:44:14):
I don't know if it'll pick it up. Way there
I go.

Speaker 3 (01:44:20):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:44:23):
Halleran put together a catalog of treatments that he used
at the Lunatic Asylum in Cork and published the descriptions
with illustrations. Now I'm gonna fast forward This is another
method that comes up a lot in like the tortuous ways.
It's called hydrotherapy. Sounds like it'd be nice. Well, you

(01:44:45):
could go to the sauna, get your cold plunge in right.
Hydro Therapy was a popular method of This is from
Restoring Perspective Life and treatment at the London Asylum. Hydro
Therapy was ap their method of treatment for mental illness
at the beginning of the twentieth century and was used
at many institutions, including the London Asylum for the insane.

(01:45:08):
Water was thought to be an effected treatment because it
could be heated or cooled to different temperatures, which, when
applied to the skin, could produce various reactions throughout the
rest of the body. One of the main benefits of
hydrotherapy treatment was its ability to take effect quickly. Hydrotherapy
could be accomplished with baths, packs, or sprays. Orm Continuous

(01:45:29):
baths were used to treat patients suffering from insomnia, those
considered to be a suicidal and assultive and calm excited
and agitated behavior. A patient could expect a continuous bath
treatment to last from several hours to several days, or
sometimes even even overnight. Continuous baths were the most effective.

(01:45:50):
One held in a quiet room with little light and
audio stimulation, thus allowing the patient to relax and possibly
even fall asleep. Bath temperatures typically range from ninety two
to night ninety seven as so as not to cause injury.
Packs consisted of sheets dipped in various temperatures of water,
which were then wrapped around the patient for several hours,

(01:46:11):
depending on the case. Sprays functioned like showers and used
either warm or cold water. Cold water was used to
treat patients diagnosed with manic depressive psychoses and those showing
signs of excitement and increased motor activity. Application of cold
water slowed down blood flowed the brain, decreasing mental and
physical activity. The temperature for a cold pack arranged from

(01:46:34):
forty eight degrees to seventy degrees. Hydrotherapy was used throughout
the earliest century at the London Asylum for the insane.

Speaker 3 (01:46:44):
I've seen this though in movies.

Speaker 1 (01:46:46):
Old packs. No hydrotherapy, What about the sheets? No?

Speaker 3 (01:46:50):
But I will tell you it's nothing like what they're
describing right there.

Speaker 1 (01:46:54):
Well, this seems to be in favor of right, This
gets pretty fucking dark. So this is from new histories, lobotomy,
insulin coma therapy, electric shock, and cortisol, the miracle cures

(01:47:16):
question mark.

Speaker 3 (01:47:17):
Well, I got a lot to talk about lobotomis.

Speaker 1 (01:47:21):
Well, this is going to be the segue into the lobotomy.

Speaker 3 (01:47:24):
But I just wanted to let you know. The hydrotherapy,
from what I have seen depicted, is nothing like that description. Okay,
they would put you in a tank with boiling hot water.

Speaker 1 (01:47:36):
Yeah, it seems like they would do extremes. Yeah, old
and hot, but.

Speaker 3 (01:47:40):
They would zipper you up in there, and then they
would like so you couldn't get out, and they would
leave you in there. It's apparently for hours or days.

Speaker 1 (01:47:50):
Or well, that article was very weirdly worded and it
said from one day to several days, sometimes even overnight. Well, yeah,
days implies many overnights, many overnight.

Speaker 3 (01:48:04):
But yeah, they would you couldn't get out. It wasn't
like you were just soaking in the tub with some
rose petals and some fucking basalts. They would just boil
you for days or freeze you with just your head
sticking out.

Speaker 1 (01:48:21):
Yeah. Me, anybody knows you're getting a hot tub for
over an hour you're hydrated. Yeah, especially you've been drinking
a little briskies.

Speaker 3 (01:48:33):
Anyways, just wanted to throw that out there.

Speaker 1 (01:48:35):
Yeah. I mean, I'd never have seen it done other
than in movies, so I'm not sure. But the one
that got me was getting these sheets at different temperatures
of water and wrapping them around people. I mean, imagine
if you had like a claustrophobic.

Speaker 3 (01:48:53):
Patient, Well, imagine just your head sticking out of the
tub and getting boiled for days.

Speaker 1 (01:48:58):
Yeah. All right, So this again is called the bottomy,
Insulin coma therapy, electroshock, and cortisol the miracle cures question mark.
In nineteen thirty six, Antonio Egasimonies proposed the lobotomy, a
form of brain surgery that physicians believed provide a cure
for the baffling condition of schizophrenia. According to Reputable Medical Journal,

(01:49:23):
the lancet, a long, hollow needle to which is attached
to a loop of strong wire, was inserted into the
brain and blindly rotated to cut a core of the
white substance in the prefrontal cortex. This description causes extreme
discomfort for the modern day reader. With what we know today,
it is clear that the only thing the surgery achieved
was extensive brain damage in patients for contemporaries, however, this

(01:49:46):
was considered an innovative miracle cure. In fact, the treatment
was so acclaimed it won Igasimuns a Nobel Prize in
nineteen forty nine, thirteen after his first conception of the idea,
botomy will mostly widely condemned today. Was not the only
questionable treatment to emerge in the early twentieth century. A

(01:50:07):
less well known but equally unfruitful treatment was insulin coma therapy,
first introduced by Manfried J. Sakel in nineteen twenty seven.
The patient was injected with insulin over six days, inducing
regular comas aka hypoglycemia for two or three hour periods.
This was This approach risked and irreversible coma, brain damage,

(01:50:30):
and even death the lancet ict in. The lancet ict,
which is insulin coma therapy, was often used as a
comparison point for newer methods, a demonstration of the authority
it managed to achieve in this period. A drug that
is less readily accepted but still prominent in medical text

(01:50:52):
was cortisol treatment or metrizol in the US injectoring cortisol
induced an epileptic fit and patient. It's based on medical
belief that epilepsy and schizophrenia could not occur together, so
they thought if you were epileptic, you couldn't have schizophrenia,
so they made you epileptic. That's not funny. I don't

(01:51:16):
know why I'm laughing.

Speaker 3 (01:51:17):
Well, it's hilarious, actually. I mean, this is why I
said the asylum era was the end of spirituality in
the beginning of everything's just.

Speaker 1 (01:51:25):
Medicine, and that's just That's when I also said that
it started to get really fucking dark. Yeah, I mean,
I think I'd take a couple chunks of skull out
of my head over this shit.

Speaker 3 (01:51:35):
That's what I'm saying. Little blood letting, come on. I
you know, before I was pregnant, I let blood out
all the time. It helped with my hysteria apparently.

Speaker 1 (01:51:49):
Okay, so yeah, they believe that schizophrenia couldnot occur with
epilepsy in one person. Far less research existed in support
for this therapy, but as it was cheaper then ict
was in regular use. Due to immensephere expressed by patients
that underwent this treatment, Cortisol injections were soon replaced with
electroshock therapy, still in use today. In its early days,

(01:52:10):
electroshock therapy was significantly more dangerous than it is now.
Ugo Serletti's original method involved placing electrobes on the temple
of the patient. Patient shocked with eighty or ninety volts
to produce an epileptic fit. It is interesting that this
was the lowest somatic treatment to gain credibility, considered far
inferior to the insulin one. Clearly, these treatments did not

(01:52:33):
work and even crueled by today's standards. So why did
contemporaries hold them into such high esteem. The answer is
two fold. Psychiatrists in this period aspired to achieve legitimate
medical status, forced to make their approaches more scientific to
gain approval. Of course, by today's standards, sematic treatments were
not scientific at all. However, being scientific had different criteria

(01:52:56):
criteria for temporaries, with less of a focus on objectivity
in favor of empirical evidence. Research was largely in the
use form of the case study, which at the time
was perfectly acceptable in medical circles. One article even comprised
of a letter from a lobotomy patient himself, posing the
questions what use was it to live at all? If

(01:53:18):
one was only half alive? The value of empirical evidence
and research is clear, as the patient's subjective first time
account was lauded in an esteemed medical journal. Outside of
psychiatric profession, it was still widely held that psychosomatic treatments worked.
This belief is understandable after considering that the definition of

(01:53:39):
being cured was also differed in the historical context. In
nineteen fifty four, an article in The Lancet declared with
glee that young schizophrenics no longer filled the hospitals. In
many ways, this was a marked improvement to a patient's
quality of life, the alternative being oblique lifetime in a
hospital to weigh out the illness. If a patient was

(01:53:59):
able to cope in their community, they were in much
better situation than if they were detained in a mental war. Furthermore,
hospitals were expensive, which made mentally ill. Being mentally ill
a great burden in ways that are not today. If
the outcomes of psychosomatic treatments are weighed up against the
realities of the time, it is easy to understand why
contemporary so willingly accepted these treatments as the cure for schizophrenia.

(01:54:23):
Our perceptions of the past are often shaded by the
standards of the modern day. I'm not even to finish
reading the last few sentences. These guys totally just like said, yeah,
it was horrible, it was torturous, but you know what,
they just did what they had to do in the time.

Speaker 3 (01:54:37):
They admitted it's gonna say, whoever wrote this article sucks.

Speaker 1 (01:54:42):
Yeah, they're shilling, but they are, but they do give
a good information. Then they just turned tail.

Speaker 3 (01:54:49):
Okay, but that's not I mean, they're like, what they're
not also saying is that the reason why electroshock therapy
is still used today is that's the reason they were
using it back then. Okay, and it's at a much
lesser voltage by the way, No, it's it still doesn't work.

(01:55:11):
What I'm saying, though, is they're still allowed to use it,
but they've had to like tone it down to like
a fucking little zap. What they were doing with electroshock
therapy back then was shooting excessive volts of electric into
your brain hole.

Speaker 1 (01:55:25):
So I doubt they even do lobotomies anymore. They were
out on the level.

Speaker 3 (01:55:31):
Well, here's the thing about lobotomis and I'll try to
sum it up quick because I know we've been at
this for a while now, but it's all a very
important information. The guy that you just mentioned, Antonio Monez.
You ever seen a picture of him? No, he looks

(01:55:51):
like sloths from the Goodies. The motherfucker looks like he
needs a lobotomy anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:55:55):
Maybe he tested it on himself first.

Speaker 3 (01:55:58):
He's the originator of the botomy. But a lot of
people don't know this, but the procedure of the lobotomy
was modified and what they called championed and perfected quote
unquote by a dude named Walter Freeman.

Speaker 1 (01:56:15):
Okay, Walter.

Speaker 3 (01:56:16):
So he performed the first lobotomy at a mental hospital
in the United States in nineteen thirty six. Antonio was
performing them in Berlin and it was a completely different jure. Yeah,
so he got the Nobel Prize for what the work
he was doing in Berlin with the lobotomy that he created,

(01:56:38):
but it never made it to the States because Walter
changed it, americanized it. And that's the lobotomy that we
had in the States.

Speaker 1 (01:56:49):
It's like what we did with sushi and pizza.

Speaker 3 (01:56:53):
But so its use increased dramatically from the early nineteen
forties and into the nineteen fifties, and by nineteen fifty one,
almost twenty thousand lobotomies had been performed in the US
thanks to Walter, not Antonio, because we didn't use his
method whatsoever. And anytime you watch a movie, anytime you

(01:57:16):
see something in a documentary about lobotomy, it's Walter's lobotomy,
not Antonio's. So more lobotomies were performed on women than
on men, and a nineteen fifty one study found that
nearly sixty percent of American lobotomy patients were women. Does

(01:57:38):
that shock you It doesn't shock me at all.

Speaker 1 (01:57:41):
Well, we all know about the old Kennedy family secret
that's not so secret. But JFK's younger sister, I believe
she was born in like forty one. You think she
was in her early twenties. But one thing that isn't
talked about a lot. I've learned recently is that when

(01:58:01):
her mom was giving birth to her, the doctor was
late or something, and the midwife told her to cross
her legs and the kid was.

Speaker 3 (01:58:14):
Coming out oxygen deprivation.

Speaker 1 (01:58:17):
So she was always a little off. But then their
idea was to lobottomize her, and she was bab got
the Walter, but she was basically one of the you know,
there's all sorts of results that happen. Sometimes it makes
the people more fucking reactive. Sometimes it vegetizes them. And
that's what it did to the Kennedy gal. Should I

(01:58:37):
look her name up we're talking about Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:58:39):
While you do that, I'm going to read a little
bit more about the H. Walter lobotomi. So here's a
little bit more about Walter. He was basically wanting to
simplify lobotomies so that it could be carried out by
psychiatrists in psychiatric hospitals where there were no operating rooms,

(01:59:03):
no surgeons, no anesthesia, hospitals that had limited budgets, and
he wanted them to still be able to perform the
lobotomy right because the model that Antonio suggested would require
operating rooms, surgeons, anesthesia, and people with some type of

(01:59:31):
surgical skills. Right. Walter was like, nah, fuck that we
should be able to do it with no anesthesia, on
a limited budget, with no surgeons, no operating rooms, sometimes
not even a doctor.

Speaker 1 (01:59:43):
He did like the fast food model.

Speaker 3 (01:59:45):
Yes, but that's the only one that we practiced in
the US. That's why the results were so fucked up.
So the transorbital approach involved placeding a orbito classed as
it's called, which was basically just a little tiny ice

(02:00:05):
pick in under the eyelid and against the top of
the eye socket, and then they would just take a
mallet and drive the ice pick through the thin layer
of bone into the brain. And Walter's transorbital lobotomy method
did not require a neurosurgeon, and it could be performed

(02:00:26):
outside the operating room, often by untrained psychiatrists, without the
use of anesthesia. And basically what they did instead of
use anesthesia is they would electroshock them into a coma
or a seizure.

Speaker 1 (02:00:42):
So this guy's name was Walter. Yeah you think he
ever was like, I get you a lobotomy by three o'clock.
That's okay, so willhelm on in here.

Speaker 3 (02:00:52):
Basically he would electroshock them and then put the ice
pick into their eyeball, tap it with the mallet, get
up into the brain and just start scribbling shit around.
So Walter later traveled across the United States visiting mental
institutions and in nineteen fifty one, one of his patients

(02:01:12):
out at Iowa Cherokee Mental Health Institute died when he
stopped to take a picture during the procedure and he
went too far into the patient's brain and killed them.
But he got a great pick out of it. And
after four decades, Walter had personally performed possibly as many

(02:01:36):
as four thousand lobotomies on patients as young as four years.

Speaker 1 (02:01:39):
Old Jesus four yep.

Speaker 3 (02:01:41):
Why And despite the fact that he had no formal
surgical training, he was still able to perform four thousand lobotomies.

Speaker 1 (02:01:52):
This kind needs to be in a horror movie.

Speaker 3 (02:01:54):
And as many as one hundred of his patients died
of cerebral hemorrhage. And so he has no formal medical training. Right,
what's this dude's story? How is he able to do this?
So he comes from a family of upper echelons from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

(02:02:15):
He attended Yale University, not for medicine, and his grandfather
was some kind of a general in the Civil War.
And his first job was directing laboratories at Saint Elizabeth's
Hospital in Washington, d C. And some would think, oh,

(02:02:37):
nothing to see here, but I would say, it's suspicious.
The guy goes to Yale University and his first job
is in Washington, DC directing laboratories, and then he comes
up with this lobotomi method. He's able to perform four
thousand lobotomies with no medical training whatsoever. He's just killing

(02:02:57):
people left and right, taking selfies.

Speaker 1 (02:03:00):
Yeah, and he's of it. You mentioned an upper echelon
family out of Philly, out of Pennsylvania, So yeah, this
does week of spook connections.

Speaker 3 (02:03:15):
I think that they were just conducting big experiments on.

Speaker 1 (02:03:18):
Well it wasn't an experimental yes, but also you're eradicating
a large portion of the population. Yeah, you're basically turning
them into useless eaters who just probably most like we
were talking about. Rosemary was their name, Kennedy. She was

(02:03:41):
lobotomized at twenty three and then was institutionalized for the
rest of her life.

Speaker 3 (02:03:47):
But she got the Walter. Yeah, because they only performed
the Walter in the US, the one that the guy
that won the Nobel Prize, the uh what's his name, uh,
Antonio manz whatever. His procedure was completely different than what

(02:04:13):
Walter was doing.

Speaker 1 (02:04:16):
So it's funny that they just shift all of it
to him.

Speaker 3 (02:04:19):
Yeah, why isn't anybody talking about the fact that there
there was never one lobotomy performed using Antonio's method in
the US. Walter heard about it and was like, fuck
all that we could do this without even any anesthesia
or doctors in the room. Let me just put a

(02:04:41):
fucking ice pick in this person's eyeball, tap it a
couple times, and then scramble their brain. That the Walter
method is in all the pop culture movies when they
stick it in and they tap it and they get
up into the that's Walter.

Speaker 1 (02:04:58):
Yeah, he wasn't a doctor.

Speaker 3 (02:05:02):
Walter was not a fucking doctor. How is that? How
was that either?

Speaker 1 (02:05:08):
Well? And I imagine he was going around just showing
everybody how to do it too. Yes, so yeah, you
watch one flew over the Kouka's nest, which we'll go
into extensively in the last episode. But yeah, it's uh,
it's some dark ass shit. I mean, it's basically attempted murder,

(02:05:29):
at at the very least on patients as young as four.
And I can't imagine who the fuck in their right
mind would hand their child over to have that done. That.
Those people need to be lobotomized in a very painful way.

Speaker 3 (02:05:45):
I mean, if so, if they couldn't get him with
the lobotomy, they use those other forms of treatment that
you mentioned, insulin shock therapy, electroconvulsive therapy, neurolliptic drug therapy.
So that's gonna wrap us up for what I had

(02:06:05):
for part one, the Loboto Matrix.

Speaker 1 (02:06:10):
Yeah, I did want to briefly go over before we
close out. This reporter Nellie Bly, who many of you
have probably heard of. Well, basically, she was an undercover
reporter and she got the job by pitching this story

(02:06:30):
to the newspaper. And she got into this institution and
her overall stay was ten days. But while she was
in there, she understood that, you know, they weren't fucking around.
This was like a game to her. And when she
kind of like tried to convince the people that she
was saying all of a sudden, they attributed that to

(02:06:52):
her being more insane, and she got stuck in this cycle.
And finally, after ten days, the newspaper guy came in
there and got her out. She wrote a book detailing
all of it. It kind of brought some attention to it,
but you know, it did keep happening for decades, and
I mean there's indicators that it's still happening today.

Speaker 3 (02:07:12):
He's going to say, I think it's actually still happening.

Speaker 1 (02:07:15):
I mean, mental institutions aren't a big thing, although Donald
Trump is talking about bringing them back.

Speaker 3 (02:07:22):
We need worlds fairs and more mental institutions make America
great agains. Seeing girl interrupted.

Speaker 1 (02:07:29):
I don't know if he could sit through a movie.
But anyway, to close the episode out, I wanted to
read that article about that African guy because I think
it's just a good wrap up of like these different
perspectives on mental illness and the route that Western society
took and has is continuing to take. And we will

(02:07:52):
get into more modern day mental illness and our societal
reaction to it, probably in the next episode. All right,
This is from Mad in America, written in June tenth,
twenty nineteen. The Shamanic view of mental illness Birth of
a Healer. In the Shamanic view, mental illness signals the

(02:08:16):
birth of a healer, explains a West African shaman Maladoma
patrise sommee. Thus, mental disorders are spiritual emergencies, spiritual crises
and need to be regarded as such to aid the
healer in being born with those in the West view
as mental illness, the Dagara people regard as good news
from the other world. The person going through the crisis

(02:08:38):
has been chosen as a medium for a message to
the community that needs to be communicate communicated from the
spirit realm. Doctor Somme comments mental disorder behavioral disorders of
all kinds signal effect that two obviously incompatible energies have
merged into the same field. These disturbances result when the
person does not get assistance and healing with the presence

(02:09:02):
of the energy from the spirit realm. One of the
things doctor so May encountered when he first came to
the United States in nineteen eighty for graduate study was
how this country deals with mental illness. When a fellow
student was sent to a mental institute due to nervous depression,
doctor so May went to visit him. I was so shocked.

(02:09:23):
That was the first time I was brought face to
face with what is done here to people exhibiting the
same symptoms I've seen seen in my village. What struck
doctor so Mae was that the attention given to such
symptoms was based on pathology on the idea that the
condition is something that needs to stop. This was in
complete opposition to the way his culture views such a situation.

(02:09:46):
As he looked around the stark ward at the patients,
some in strait jackets, some zoned out on medications, others screaming,
he observed to himself. So this is how the healers
who are attempting to be born are treated in this culture.
What a loss? What a loss that a person who
is finally being aligned with a power from the other
world is just being wasted. The Western culture has consistently

(02:10:09):
ignored the birth of the healer, states doctor. So may
consequently there will be a tendency from the other world
to keep trying as many people as possible an attempt
to get somebody's attention. They have to try harder. The
spirits are drawn to people whose senses have not been anestetized.
The sensitivity is pretty much read as an inventation to

(02:10:29):
come in. You know, those who develop so called mental
disorders are those who are sensitive, which is viewed in
Western culture is over sensitivity. Indigenous cultures don't see it
that way, and as a result, sensitive people don't experience
themselves as overly sensitive in the West. It is the
overload of the culture they're in that is just wrecking them,

(02:10:52):
observes doctor so Ma. The frenetic pace, the bombardment of
the senses, and the violent energy that characterize Western culture
can overwhelmed sensitive people with schizophrenia. There's a special receptivity
to a flow of images and information which cannot be controlled,
stated doctor so Ma. And as a side note, in
our culture that's only getting much worse, yes with all

(02:11:15):
the kids having phones and all that shit we had TV,
which was bad enough. When this kind of rush occurs
at a time that is not personally chose as chosen,
and particularly when it comes with images that are scary
and contradictory, the person goes into a frenzy. What is
required in this situation is first to separate the person's

(02:11:36):
energy from the extraneous foreign energies by using shamanic practice
what is known as a sweep, to clear the latter
out of the individual's era. With the clearing of the energy,
with the clearing of their energy filled, the person no
longer picks up a flood of information and so no
longer has a reason to be scared and disturb explains
Doctor so Ma, then it is possible to help the

(02:11:58):
person align with the inner energy of the spirit being
attempting to come through from the other world and give
birth to the healer. The blockage of that emergence is
what creates problems. The energy of the healer is a
high voltage energy. He observes when it is blocked, it
just burns up the person. It's like a short circuit.
Fuses are blowing. This is why it can be really scary,

(02:12:20):
and I understand why this culture prefers to confine these
people here. They are yelling and screaming and they're put
in a straight jacket. That's a sad image. Again, the
shamanic approach is to work on aligning the energy so
there is no blockage, fuses aren't blowing, and the person
can become the healer they are meant to be. It
needs to be noted at this point, however, that not

(02:12:41):
all of the spirit beings that enter a person's energetic
field are there for the purposes of promoting healing. There
are negative energies as well, which are undesirable presents in
the era. In those cases, the shamanic approach is to
remove them from the era rather than work to align
the discordant energies. And that kind of sounds like, oh,

(02:13:02):
is that the end of it?

Speaker 3 (02:13:03):
Yeah, well, let me do I actually made a note
in my phone as you were reading that because it
reminded me of something else I want to talk about
in the next episode. But do you think, like I
can get on with what this guy's saying.

Speaker 1 (02:13:19):
So I've always said that our fucking culture, our society.
He calls them sensitive people. I would just say more
people are just opened And so a lot of this
stuff does drive people that if they grew up in
this guy's village, they wouldn't be fucking crazy.

Speaker 3 (02:13:35):
You know what supports that theory. You can take a
normal person like you or I.

Speaker 1 (02:13:43):
In induce normal.

Speaker 3 (02:13:46):
Listen, and induce psychosis with drugs. That's why I asked you, like,
do you think every homeless person is just schizophrenic or
psychopathic or whatever they're mentally ill. No, they started out
as a normal person and they and they opened themselves up.

Speaker 1 (02:14:06):
Well, yeah, a large proportion of the homeless population does
fall into that. I would say it's really nuanced, but
that's a huge part of it.

Speaker 3 (02:14:14):
But you know what, I'm saying, like, maybe, sure, some
some homeless people started off mentally ill and did drugs
and now they're worse off. But for the most part,
like when you see when you pass a homeless person
there and they're talking to themselves and they're shouting stuff
out and whatever, they didn't start off like that.

Speaker 1 (02:14:35):
And even if they did, it would have been treated
differently in a different culture. It would have been nurtured
instead of stigmatized, you know, right, Well, that's half of
the problem I think here is when people are experiencing
something that the collective isn't experiencing, they're shunned, even if
they're like nurtured in a way, but they're still shunned.

(02:14:55):
And you're never gonna get good results with that. No,
I don't think it's possible.

Speaker 3 (02:15:00):
You're never gonna get good results by numbing it with medication.

Speaker 1 (02:15:04):
Yeah, either, yeah, you can like bury it down. And
then in the event where that person doesn't have access
to medication somehow, which could.

Speaker 3 (02:15:12):
Happen, they have a psycho outbreak.

Speaker 1 (02:15:15):
So yeah, you're you're now on the pharmaceutical teat for
effort of days or it could get ugly. I mean,
just look at all the medical shortages we had during
the COVID bullshit.

Speaker 3 (02:15:28):
Well, so that's why in the next episode, I want
to touch on several things. I want to talk about
some notorious asylums. I want to talk about psychiatry now,
I want to talk about pharmaceuticals. And I want to
talk about what would this doctor so May or however
you pronounce his name, what doctor so May is talking about?

(02:15:53):
Is this world that we're living in, like we have
turned it into an industry. We've turned it into cogs
in a medical machine. It's just normal, yes, but they're
you're making so much money.

Speaker 1 (02:16:11):
All the people you know, okay, close people, family members
of yours. Think of how many of them are on
some kind of psych medicine. A lot of them, I mean,
i'd say more are than aren't at this point.

Speaker 3 (02:16:27):
And your family too.

Speaker 1 (02:16:29):
I'm talking about my family. I'm talking about maybe some
of my family who isn't should probably be like you
never fucking know, I mean, yeah, I could glitch out
at sixty and fucking need some of this shit. Well,
I'm just saying they're there.

Speaker 3 (02:16:44):
We have not addressed the underlying cause, and we throw
pills down people's throats.

Speaker 1 (02:16:56):
By episode three, we will tell you the underlying cause.

Speaker 3 (02:17:00):
I did a pretty good job.

Speaker 1 (02:17:02):
That's the most help well. Like I said, I wanted
to interject like the transition, but I think it worked
better closing out the episode with it, because that kind
of gives a tangent that we could go off on
next episode, because it is his theme needs to be
overriding all of this, because he even talks in spiritual language.
But he also says it's too like contradicting energy fields,

(02:17:26):
and I mean all of it, all of it makes
sense with how I view the world way more than
it's oh, your serotonin levels need to be re uptake
inhibited or whatever. Yeah fuck yeah, yeah sure, because that
always works, doesn't it.

Speaker 3 (02:17:43):
Yeah that Oh yeah, it works every time.

Speaker 1 (02:17:45):
But you know, and maybe sometimes it does, but it's
not designed to I can tell you that, right.

Speaker 3 (02:17:49):
Yeah, what what are we? Are we using a code
word for Randy Smoke? Who the guy the the shooting? No?

Speaker 1 (02:17:59):
Are you putting this on YouTube?

Speaker 3 (02:18:00):
No? So usually when you see school shooters and shit
like that, they're all on serotonin inhibitors, and.

Speaker 1 (02:18:08):
Babe, it's not usually, it's always. But what I'm saying
is if they're never not SSRIs, some kind of behavioral
modification pharmaceutical drug for sure, all of them. The fucking
if there's a scandal with the fucking uh Columbine shooters,
there was a scandal with the fucking drug company that
at least one of those kids was on, if not

(02:18:29):
both of them. I know one of them was for sure.

Speaker 3 (02:18:32):
So again, if that was the answer to mental illness,
we would have figured it out already.

Speaker 1 (02:18:41):
Ship we'd all be on them.

Speaker 3 (02:18:44):
But it's not. No, But yeah, so what do you
what do you think? It? Just final thoughts for the
loboto matrix segment.

Speaker 1 (02:18:53):
Uh, don't go get a lobotomy, probably not unless that's
your thing. And uh yeah, we will definitely have a
juicy beginning to next episode. Some of the stuff we
were going to talk about before this one became almost
three hours long. It'll all flow together. And I mean,
I think these are thoughts that in our modern day world,

(02:19:16):
just walking up in the middle of the fucking street
of a city, you're going to see mental illness more
and more all the time. It seems to be getting
worse and our way of handling it.

Speaker 3 (02:19:28):
And yeah, something else I want to talk about in
the next episode is also how the if anybody out
there is listening to this and their child is autistic,
do not take this personally. But I do feel like
there is a big push to normalize it some type

(02:19:50):
of superpower.

Speaker 1 (02:19:52):
And I mean they are extraordinary people, don't get me wrong,
But it's not the next step in evident, it's not unless.

Speaker 3 (02:19:59):
What else I I want to say is what people
need to understand is that this uptake in autistic children
is caused from the uptake in the nineties of introducing
a bunch of unnecessary vaccines.

Speaker 1 (02:20:15):
Oh you look where you're going r f K Junior.
I would have a thing or two to say.

Speaker 3 (02:20:22):
Do you not agree?

Speaker 1 (02:20:23):
Of course I do. It's not a superpowerful And I
also want to say something that I don't believe that
the people who think this modern, this very new view
that maybe this autism is like a superpower and the
next step in human development. I would bet my bottom
fucking dollar that the parents of autistic kids would be

(02:20:45):
the first one to tell you fuck off of that
I have to deal with this shit every day, day
in and day out, and this is not a normal thing.

Speaker 3 (02:20:53):
Do you think that they would admit that childhood?

Speaker 1 (02:20:57):
Oh I don't know. I mean, I'm not going to
speak for anybody on that, but I do know people
who have to interact with autistic people on a daily basis,
and they don't look at it as an upgrade.

Speaker 3 (02:21:06):
I don't look at that.

Speaker 1 (02:21:07):
Oh yeah, I'm just saying when you were, like to
any parents out there, I would think that they would
agree with us. If not, medical people bomb herrass hard
in the comments that they're wrong.

Speaker 3 (02:21:16):
Well, I just have I've met a couple recently who
think that it's the next step in the evolution. And
that's fair if they think.

Speaker 1 (02:21:22):
That autistic kids, yes, okay, hey, if that's the mild.

Speaker 3 (02:21:28):
Form of autism where they have like some kind of
voluntism like that could be considered to be like some
type of you know, the ability to do things that
the average person would struggle with. I understand you thinking
that could be a superpower. But just on the day
today autistic children have I think the rise in autistic

(02:21:53):
children occurred around the rise of unnecessary childhood vaccine schedules.
It's not I think I.

Speaker 1 (02:22:01):
Think there's probably a lot of stuff contributing to it.
I think we're gonna talk some MK ultra next time.
And I think that there's a huge overlap of like
that guy you like to talk about in Urie Geller,
Oh Andrea, all these guys have a reason to push
this narrative. It's very pharmaceutical, it's very Golden Age technocratic.

(02:22:27):
It's it's very ugly. And if this ship was supposed
to happen as the nation the natural advancement of the
human society, it wouldn't have taken those measures to make
it happen. CIA shit, pharmaceutical shit, it wouldn't have been.
It wouldn't have taken that. So they're right there. Tells
me like anything those guys do. Yeah, they made good

(02:22:50):
music in la in the sixties, but other than that.

Speaker 3 (02:22:54):
They can bring that back at any time. I'm so
sick to fucking death of this ship that they've been
putting out.

Speaker 1 (02:23:00):
Just listen to the good stuff. The Laurel Canyon sy
to the good stuff.

Speaker 3 (02:23:04):
But I'm just saying I could use the revival of
the good CIA music.

Speaker 1 (02:23:09):
I'm sure they got something cooking.

Speaker 3 (02:23:12):
So with that being said, I think this is a
good conclusion for the Loboto Matrix. Thank you for listening
all the way to the end. This was a longer one.
I hope we can bring the fire for the next episode.
It is going to be the Conspira Asylum Part two

(02:23:32):
Schizopharmiac segment. But thank you so much for listening. And
there is one very important, vital piece of information I
need you to learn just as soon as humanly possible.

Speaker 2 (02:24:00):
As normal places a mot of faces.

Speaker 1 (02:24:04):
I've got to live an take.

Speaker 2 (02:24:06):
Mess, don't we know? Don't we know that? Ts a
feeling the bad loss and don't spreadshow, don't like expression
my lid over to dumas to go to a find

(02:24:30):
of fading. I found a god of side the drinking.

Speaker 3 (02:24:34):
Jumped out, you know, the dad iBOT.

Speaker 2 (02:24:38):
I want to tell you guys, I need to take
with people.

Speaker 1 (02:24:42):
In circles.

Speaker 4 (02:24:46):
And ready you count me down five four, three two? Hello,

(02:25:11):
really it just farted?

Speaker 1 (02:25:14):
Heybe she did? Everybody. If this doesn't make it into
the outtakes, she's lost her sense of humor. Eight months pregnant.

Speaker 3 (02:25:25):
I'm gonna shave your eyebrows in your sleep.

Speaker 1 (02:25:28):
I look pretty good like that. I looked like a
guy from a pink floor. You look like a chemo.

Speaker 3 (02:25:32):
Hush,