White Shaman Mural: San Antonio's Cosmological Heritage w/ Gary Perez & Matilde Torres

Join us on a remarkable journey as we uncover the sacred and historical significance of San Antonio in conversation with our guests, Gary Perez and Matilde Torres. We delve into compelling narratives of the White Shaman Mural and the spiritual role of the San Antonio River to reveal the rich tapestry of mythology, spirituality, and astronomy. This intricate exploration takes us through the liminal space between culture and history, creating a profound understanding of our collective ancestry and the enduring narratives written in the stars.

Our conversation focuses on the sacred constellation Eridanus, prompting discussions on how our ancestors used astronomy, mathematics, and language to forge connections across the world. We reflect on the essence of cultural authenticity, the duality of masculinity and femininity in native ceremonies, and the critical responsibility we have to protect our descendants from cultural appropriation. This riveting dialogue emphasizes our deep connections between history, culture, and cosmology while scrutinizing the delicate balance between cultural reconnection and appropriation.

As we delve deeper, we express gratitude for lineage and discuss how we can honor ancestors through our everyday actions. We also shed light on the hidden depths of ancestral connections and ancient civilizations, stressing the importance of preserving language and cultural practices for future generations. With fascinating insights about indigenous heritage and cosmic connection, this episode of the Cosmic Water Podcast is an enlightening journey you won't want to miss.

Episode Transcript

Narrator (00:01):
As the cosmos connects the universe, water connects
life.
At the Cosmic Water Podcast,we're exploring the history,
mythology and future of thesacred land known as San Antonio
.

Maureen (00:23):
Welcome to Cosmic Water Podcast.
I'm Maureen, I'm Angela, andtoday we are so honored to have
Gary Perez and Matilde Torreswith us.
I'm going to read from alawsuit against the city of San
Antonio with the Alas of PlantTiffs, which is just really

(00:44):
incredible to read and I feellike has everything in such a
consolidated matter about what'sgoing on at Brock and Ridge
Park specifically.
So in it it says that planttips and other groups indigenous
to North and Central Americabelieve the park is where life
was created in the region.
According to their beliefs, thepark provides a special

(01:06):
connection to the spiritualworld.
Plant tips and their fellowmembers of the Native American
Church gather in the park forpersonal and communal religious
worship, following thetraditions that their ancestors
have observed for thousands ofyears.
The shape of the San AntonioRiver within the park, the floor
that surrounds the river, theconstellations in the sky above

(01:29):
these come together to form apilgrimage site for indigenous
persons across North America,and they form one of the holiest
sites on earth.
So I went to UTSA.
I graduated in 2010 and I movedback six years ago when I became
a single mom.
Like I only had one friend atthe time, I actually met Angela

(01:50):
the second day that I moved here, which seems just so meant to
be, and since then San Antoniojust created the most incredible
community for me.
I say all the time.
It's just treated me and mykids so well, and I've actually
heard this from other singlemoms too that came here and
raised kids and they're like Iknew something was special about

(02:11):
this land and so when Angelatold me everything about the
stars that you know she learnedfrom y'all, for me it just like
all made sense and I was like,yes, this truly is like the most
holy land on earth and with myknowledge of astrology and stuff
, and with them, the way thatOrion sits right, the birth,

(02:33):
which is the nursery of stars,where stars are born Just like
squirts basically, like kind oflike water breaking into
Irredinus, it's like it feelslike the birthplace of all of
the universe to me.
And so with that like thatbeing one of the most incredible

(02:53):
like realizations of my life,and that information kind of
coming from y'all, I waswondering like, at what moment
did you realize that this islike the most sacred place in my
, not just on earth but like inthe universe, what it feels like
?

Gary (03:09):
Yes, sacred space has always been contentious all over
the world, in the Middle East,okay, mexico here in.
Texas, because there's always afight over interpretation and
who gets to own it and who getsto create the narrative, and
blah, blah, blah.
But we've known the shape ofthe river through Breckenridge

(03:32):
Park has always been importantbecause it mirrors the
constellation in the sky.
So as long as the river hasbeen there and as long as the
stars have been there, this hasbeen the truth.
And it's only in the last, Iwant to say last 4,000 years
that the greater community,indigenous community of North
America has come together aroundthis phenomena, because it's

(04:00):
directly attached to fromBreckenridge Park and a little
bit further north is attached tothe blue hole, an incarnate
word, which is an, a star in thesky.
And so this has been going onfor a long, long time.
And when I was caretaker of thepeyote gardens for 12 years, I
saw other indigenous people thattraveled from the north, some

(04:20):
from the south, this in thisdirection knew that, intuitively
or not intuitively, it was intheir ceremony songs, songs.
You know one of this, you knowone of that, it was just.
And then, sitting in thatposition, it just envelops you.
So there's a constantreinforcement, positive

(04:40):
reinforcement, from NorthAmerican tribes as far away as
Canada that are telling you hey,man, this is, you know, want to
, this is, this is, this is thething you know.
They still travel further southto the gardens where I was at
and have their ceremonies thereon our grandmother's property,
but they never missed a chanceto stop at the blue hole or at

(05:01):
BRAC or watch the birds and, youknow, reconnect ecologically
because that's a tenant thewater bird, feathers and water,
and a moment in the in time anda start-stop station in our
ceremonies is, you know, want tothe water bird, the water,

(05:21):
midnight water.
It's a constant and everyoneuses it, everyone and and some
people know, some people don't,some native tribes do know, some
people don't, some know anddon't tell anybody that they
know it's really, it all dependson who it is you talk to and
who's willing to share, or.

(05:42):
But at the gardens where I wasat, that came willingly through
because they're, and the furtheraway they had to travel, the
more questions they had.
You know, and they would comeand ask Gary, what is this
phenomena?
What is midnight water?
What is morning water?
and who was that first woman whofound peyote all those

(06:03):
thousands of years ago.
And so we in my my officeimmediately had answers to those
questions, especially whensomeone traveled so from so far
away.
So it's always been there andwhen, when indigenous people or
my people's picked it up, that'sthousands of years ago.
It is and and it's and and it'sbeen.

(06:26):
It's recorded in the rock artout in West Texas so for you,
it's just always been it'salways been an inspiration,
always still is moves.

Maureen (06:37):
It moves you yeah, yeah , how was that for you until day
.

Matilde (06:42):
I've been practicing for the last 15 years, you know,
reconnecting with my roots andmy culture.
I started as a danceante Mexica,mexica, danceante, that was
like.
And I remember having Bellacionand having ceremony for in
March at the blue hole, and Iwould say, like, what's the blue

(07:06):
hole?
You know, didn't know too muchand I was born and raised here
in San Antonio, you know, butthere was always, there was not
a connection, I guess, for me,you know, because you felt
disconnected, because you knowthat your parents were born in
Mexico, right, and so they, youknow, migrated back this way

(07:26):
when I started, wanted to knowmore about my roots, more about
my culture, and so when I metGary and I knew about his, you
know, he started teaching meabout his work and the research
and, and for me it just likewait a minute, here you mean to
say there's like and I rememberseeing it sitting at Bracken

(07:48):
Ridge too, because we would workmost of the time at the witty
and then we would go to Brack.
And then I remember like wait aminute, are you telling me this
is a city of gods?
Like we have that here, likeyou're kidding me.
I was again reconnecting with myroots, my culture and I was

(08:08):
kind of learning more about the,the pyramid in Mexico and and
so forth, like there was more ofit, right, these alignments are
how they're aligned, or youhear the pyramids of Egypt,
right, all the time, but it'slike what is here in Texas, you
know.
And so when I began doingceremonies, more of it, it just,

(08:30):
it just hit me all at once whatyou know, what I meant with
spirit, waters in the river andso for them, and just everything
, just and just.
Not only that, but I think,learning about what's in the
white shaman, right, this mural,it's like wait a minute, and
this is depicted, you know, onon this rock art, right, and

(08:51):
there's just so much information.
And so, throughout the years,again, ceremony is what helped
me ground myself more to SanAntonio and again, like you said
, you mentioned earlier thatit's a birthplace, right, and
then you start making thoseconnections to the other springs

(09:12):
and these constellations and soforth, and I'm just like, oh,
my god, right.
So you begin to see this storycoming together.
You know about the universe andabout nature and how, you know,
this was all just put togetheragain in this mural, you know,
and so I think that, or we knowthat our ancestors were all

(09:38):
about nature and universebecause that was their way of
life, and for me to get to livethat way, or to to know that we
can still do it, I mean it's,it's mind-blowing for me, you
know.

Maureen (09:52):
It's just, it's a lot, you know when you talked about
like I was born here in SanAntonio and didn't know this so
many people that I talked to andI try to like put this all
together.
I'm like an aerodinist, thisand the springs here and the
murals down in South Texas, andit's like they're like first
they like to think I'm crazy andthen I'll like bring up

(10:14):
something that it seems like itjust like makes sense for them
and they're like whoa, likethat's wild.
I am born and raised here and Inever knew any of this.
And yeah, you also mentionedthe blue hole and when you said
that that was a star, is thatRegis or Regis?

Gary (10:30):
no, that star is Fecta.
Fecta, it's on the tail of UrsaMajor and when, when Iridina's
is laying on the horizon, likeit is in the, in the picture
here and on in our horizons,when Fecta, the star Fecta, that
represents the blue hole, it'sjust rising above the horizon,

(10:51):
it to the right of it, it'sconnected to along horizon, is
connected to the constellationof Leo, and the Leo is the cat,
the, the cat that, the bluepanther that lives in the water,
represented by the star, in theleft to the right of that is
the horizon, which is thesurface of the water Yanawana
and to the right of that is theconstellation of Phoenix, which

(11:15):
is the bird that flew into theblue hole and got chased out
again.
So it's that perfect alignmentacross our southern skies that
tell the story, that mirrorsexactly what's happening on the
earth is that what's in thewhite shaman mural?
Iridina's.

(11:32):
Yes, iridina's is in the white shaman mural.
All of it is in there anddifferent and different.

Maureen (11:37):
I'm gonna go back to it .
You can keep talking, it's not?

Gary (11:39):
it's not laid out perfectly because they used
abstract to protect some of thisinformation.
It's very guarded a lot of thisinformation.
You have to know how to unlockthe key to what it is that
you're looking at, so you pauseit there that's a good one the
springs yeah because it can showthe the connection of.

(12:01):
Yanawana with those with thefour springs.
You see how, see how the arrowsare pointing.
If you seen this one, there are, those are pointing to
geographic locations in Texas.
And if you're standing in frontof the painting and you look,
and you look to your left, wherethe sun is rising, on the left,
that's San Angelo, slide you tothe right is paint, rock, the

(12:21):
slain, deer, and then all theway across Texas, from north to
south, and then you'll come onto the springs, along I-35,
along the Baconesus garment.
It was all laid out perfectlyand this was our geologist who
did this.
Our geologist made thisdiscovery, I didn't.
He was able to put himself inone spot in front of the

(12:43):
painting and close his eyes andimagine the Texas landscape in
front of him, if you could seeit without you know.
And so so we know that thesouthernmost spring on the right
, the southernmost area in thepainting, is Fecta, star Fecta,

(13:04):
and to the left of that, thatbig lobular thing, was
everything, yeah, everythingelse emanating, that's the
constellation of Eridinas andthen to the right, to the right
of that, where the deer is tothe right, is those nine lobes,
those nine right here in thisregion, right here, those nine
are that's nine, that's Jaguar,that's Pether you know, that's

(13:29):
Leo mm-hmm so it's all.
It's all laid out in thepainting that way, but that's
just as a little little subsetof the entire painting.
I mean.
San Antonio is.
San Antonio is unique onto itscreation story, but it only
tells us that story onlyrepresents the region locally.

Maureen (13:50):
It doesn't do the whole thing the way the white shaman
mural does oh wow, there's muchmore to it yeah, I think I, when
I was researching it, said thatit has like the most murals,
maybe in all of America thatarea, that whole area, that
whole area, the lower Pekosregion.

Gary (14:07):
I would say that this painting was someone's
dissertation.
This puts all of that rock arttogether and puts it on in one
paper right, and then submit itfor PhD you know, so that's.
It's a magnificent piece ofwork mm-hmm, it's multiple

(14:27):
stories.

Angela (14:28):
It's multiple stories, right and information on there.

Gary (14:31):
Those the multiple stories you're talking about came out
of, came out of this, itsfoundation.
Like the first woman who foundpeyote, she's represented in the
painting as the Noyesis River.
So that's one story.
That's one story.
And then there's the bluepanther over here.
That's another story.
And then in the Weicholdtradition, the Noyesis River and

(14:56):
the woman's face along theNoyesis River where she has her
open mouth.
There are three ancestors inthe painting that she has
swallowed and the two thatsurvived in the Weichold culture
.
Well, it was the two that shedidn't manage to swallow that
killed her in the underworld.
So that's a part of thepainting too.

(15:18):
And that's Weichold and that'slike three or four miles away.
So I mean a lot of folks,different native peoples from
here everywhere pulled somethingfrom this and over time these
narratives started coming aboutbecause of, maybe nature change.

(15:39):
We know that in 536 AD the sunwent away for about a year and
cultures all over the worldsuffered from this, including
our own cultures.
Here it does show there'sgeological evidence that
something went down here in thestate of Texas and it was a very
unhappy time and a lot ofpeople moved away from this
region north and south, whichexplains the Comanches,

(16:01):
u-tua-stekin-speaking peoples inthe north and Aztecs
U-Tua-Stekin-speaking peoples inthe south.
So you can see, there was justthis great exodus out of this
region and these cultures weregone for a long, long time until
someone came along and pickedit right back up again.

Angela (16:19):
Could you please tell us the origin story again and
translate it to the cosmos?
The Blue Hole origin story.

Gary (16:32):
Okay, so one day a water bird flew into the Blue Hole
there at the Incarnate Wardcampus and encountered the blue
panther.
And the panther roared in thewater at the blue bird and the

(16:54):
blue bird turned back aroundagain, swam to the surface,
leaped out of the water and leftwater droplets all throughout
this region as it was escaping,and that's how life came to be
in this region.
And so we know thatrelationship between everything

(17:16):
that I just told you hassomething analogous in this guy
the Blue Hole Aspecta.
The panther is theconstellation of Leo, the
surface of the water is Yanawanaand the water bird is the
constellation of Phoenix.
Over to the right of Phoenix iskind of funny is another
constellation that's a fish.

(17:37):
So, even though it doesn'tmention it in the story, we know
that because there's aconstellation of I don't
remember what it's called, butit's a fish and it looks like a
sunfish it looks like a sunfish,everything, the gate,
everything.
So we do know that the blue birdwas hungry.

(17:58):
We know that there was amotivation behind the water
bird's behavior to go into theBlue Hole in the first place
because of that constellationstill further to the right of
the constellation of Phoenix.
So you can add more to thestory, because there are

(18:19):
surrounding constellations thatgive you hints as to the
motivation of the bird, themotivation of the panther of
roar, which is the Leonid'sMeteor Shower.

Matilde (18:34):
And when does that?

Gary (18:35):
occur In November.

Matilde (18:36):
November.

Gary (18:37):
In November and when all those stars line up on the
horizon in November.
When they line up in November,as Leo is coming up, the meteor
shower is blasting out of itsmouth as it's rising in the east
.
So it plays itself out like afilm, like a short film story

(19:03):
and the stars in the sky.
What really gives this wholestory momentum is that meteor
shower as it's rising, as it'scoming out of Leo's mouth, as
Leo is rising in the east inNovember, around the 22nd, 24th.

Maureen (19:21):
And that's when y'all would traditionally have a
ceremony.

Gary (19:25):
But it's also involved in other ceremonies too, not just
here locally.
You know that meteor shower isalso used in the Matilda's
experience.

Maureen (19:39):
And moon dance.

Matilde (19:40):
Moon dance, yes, which would take place, or takes place
in November, you know, duringthe full moon.
So I was a part of it for maybethree years and we would have
ceremony for four days and wewould fast for four days.
So that's one of the thingsthat I was able to make the

(20:04):
connection again with ceremonyand then what's taking place in
the cosmos and then apply it to,you know, the ceremony.
So I'm just like, wow, that'spart of the story, you know.

Angela (20:17):
And is that a women's only?
Yes, a ceremony, yes.

Matilde (20:22):
I mean men do run, I mean take care of the fire, but
they're not allowed to comeclose inside the circle where
the women are having theirceremony.
So we're all dressed up inwhite and then, so you know
again, we do sweats before we gointo the circle and then once
we come out of the circle whichis from sunset to sunrise and

(20:45):
then sunrise we have anothersweat.
But we do fast.
So, yeah, but it's beautiful,it's powerful, it's, yeah, too
fast.
I mean, when I first joined, itwas just like am I going to be
able to fast for four days?

(21:05):
How can you do that?
But you actually can.
You know you have to prepareyourself.
You know mentally, you know,but you can do it, yeah.

Gary (21:17):
And the fact that these things, these, this meteor
shower, is taking placethroughout this, it's taking
place during and then mostintensely in one particular part
of the ceremony.
That's motivation to keep yougoing.
Yeah.
You know these things arereally motivating.

Matilde (21:33):
That's what also she gave me water bear for, like I
think, my second year when I wasthere, and so that's what kind
of motivated me to begin a waterpilgrimage that actually this
year was my fourth year.

(21:54):
So, again, you know, using thecosmos, telling the story,
reconnecting and just putting itall together right, it just
it's.
You know, it puts you back intoyour ancestors way of life or,

(22:14):
you know, walking in theirfootsteps, right.
And so, even though it's beensaid that this pilgrimage would
start from north to south, fromthe Pankas or other pilgrims
that were taking place, but Isaid, well, for me I would, I

(22:34):
want to begin here in SanAntonio and then go to the other
three springs, and that's forme it's kind of bringing it back
from south to north.
You know, just kind ofreconnecting and just bringing
something back right.
And Angie's been a part of it,for you know she was part of it
last, this year and last year.

(22:55):
So, and again it's giving back,you know, something to the
community, something that wehaven't had, you know.
But to tell that story rightand to actually use the cosmos
and share that alignment.
I don't post anything about itbecause it's a ceremony, you

(23:16):
know it's sacred, and so youhear what's going on when you're
there, and so I try not to, youknow, I try to keep, I limit,
you know, the number of women,right, because even that for me
tells them there's a sacrednumber that we're working with,

(23:39):
right, and so that's kind ofpart of what I document.
You know, throughout theceremonies as well, I was like,
okay, what number is manifestingin this ceremony?
And that's how you begin tomake other connections.
So that's another level ofthinking for me as a woman,
right.
What I wanted to also shareabout Yanawana and the river,

(24:00):
you know, as you mentioned, youknow it's a birth, you know, but
for me is more also about therebirth, you know, because of
the birds.
And then there's also theafterlife, you know.
So for me it's in three it'sthe life, the death and the
afterlife.
You know that at times we don't, we struggle learning just

(24:26):
about life, right, but whatabout death and what about the
afterlife?
And so for me that's what thebirds tell.
They tell that story about theafterlife, so through water and
everything.

Angela (24:40):
I think that's what I feel most connected to, or what
speaks to me immediately aboutall of this, is the darkness, is
the underworld, part of it.
That's where transformationhappens.
That's, it's very feminine.

(25:02):
And so you know the darkness.
I feel comfortable there.
I feel comfortable there.
It's the womb.

Matilde (25:14):
Right.

Angela (25:16):
It's the womb and so it's just.
I love all the connections tothat.

Matilde (25:24):
Right, and so you're saying that I mean, yeah, I love
the darkness too, right, but atsome point you must leave that
womb right to manifest.
Right, and so that's reallywhat the white shaman is, is
that's one of the things that Imentioned to Gary, but even
though he's more of the science,right, but as women, we began
to see all this, right about thetransformation, the evolution,

(25:49):
transformation and manifestation.
They all have to work together,right, and so that's part of
what kind of like what I seeabout this painting is.
It's a woman, right, it's theuniverse, and so, yeah, there's
just so much levels in there,right.
But, like you said, I thinkthat when we think about the

(26:13):
underworld, it's not as we'vebeen taught to look at the
underworld, right, it's stillbeautiful in there.
There's sacredness in there,right, and so, yeah, so for me
it's the same.
I love darkness and that'swhere, basically, you have, it

(26:33):
begins, right, it begins and so,and then from there, just
everything else happens, youcan't see the light without dark
.
Exactly.

Angela (26:42):
You can't see the stars without that dark sky.
Exactly.

Gary (26:48):
Well then, that what y'all are talking about, in a nerdy
sort of nerdy sort of way oflooking at it.

Angela (26:54):
Let's geek it out, come on.

Gary (26:57):
That's called liminal space.
You don't know once on theother side of that door until
you open it or choose to comethrough it.
You just don't know Ceremonieslike that.
You begin with, you know you'reawake, maybe you're tired,
you're thirsty, you'reeveryone's hasn't had medicine
yet, you know, and that's that.

(27:20):
And I remember from in my 20s,when I joined the Native
American church, I wasn't awarethat there was a gap between my
consciousness and then myconsciousness after
participating in the ceremonysmoking tobacco, eating, peyote,
that kind of thing, and thatwas deep, wide liminal space.

(27:40):
You know, it took a long timeto get through all night to get
through that door.
When I came out on the otherside, I was I don't know that
much better off as a person oras a human being.
I knew that immediately that Ihad just gone through something
very special.
And so it's necessary, and theliminal space is necessary in

(28:02):
our lives.
We can't shy or hide from it.
It challenges us to take thatstep forward, take that leap of
faith.
If you want to call it and say,ok, I'm going to walk through
this door, no matter howfrightened I am.
I want to do it.
And then you do it.
And it's that space betweenwhen you say I'm going to do it
and when you commit to it, thatliminal space that really,

(28:24):
really creeps a lot of peopleout and for that reason most
people never get to knowthemselves spiritually or in
other ways.

Maureen (28:38):
Yeah, I'm feeling like I get emotional when you talk
about specifically the water andreconnecting with ancestry and
stuff and having theopportunities to do these
ceremonies, because my ancestryis in Ireland, which was
colonized by the English and hadall of their information just

(29:00):
kind of erased too and they hadthese really deep connections
with the water and it's all lostnow and there are some people
trying to revive thoseconnections and stuff and so to
be able to see on the land thatI live at now people whose
ancestry is from this land,reconnecting with that, is just

(29:21):
so beautiful to me.
And my children are, as far asI know, have ancestry around
this region I'm not exactly surewhere and so that feels like
coming alive again, rebirthing,and that they get to be
connected to that, hopefullyearly in their life, is just

(29:46):
really incredible to me.
And it really makes my heartjust feel really warm that they
can't get that from my ancestry,but they can get it from here.

Gary (29:57):
And so I would love that, especially from a cute story
like a bird flying into the bluehole.
I'm going to be doing a versionof that for the Mission Library
in October and my students aregoing to be kiddos and I've got
to figure out a way how I'mgoing to do the water bird
flying in splash and the pantherand all these other things to

(30:20):
try and get that story across tothem, so that it inspires them
or at least entertains them, andwith truth, with facts.
Yes, it's a cute story, but italso plays itself out in the
stars.
You can see it throughout yourlife, playing itself over and
over again.

(30:41):
And that builds a lot ofcultural sense of security in a
person when you go back to thesame spot again, which is why we
return to the bend in the riverthe way we do we're inspired by
the movement of the stars andeverything else around it to
come back to the same spot so wecan reconnect to that little
person inside, or what ourancestors painted up on the wall

(31:04):
.

Maureen (31:06):
Yeah, that too.
Actually, I was thinking aboutthat too with my ancestry
because I follow astrology.
I know the stars very well asfar as Greek and Romans created
the constellations.
But over the past few years I'mreally in trying to decolonize
my mind and all that.
I'm like what did my Irishancestors?

(31:26):
How did they see the stars?
And there's not a lot ofinformation on that.
And so that too has just beenamazing for me to see that it's
documented.
The stars here as they wereseen are documented, and that
they're still being practicedoutside of that Greek, roman
astrology that our whole worldbasically follows, I guess,

(31:48):
besides Eastern astrology.
And so that too I'm just like,because it's really hard, it's
really hard to see outside ofthat Western astrology way, and
so that y'all are bringing it tolife is more of just this
amazing rebirth, resurgence ofactual, true information outside

(32:10):
of that colonized mind.

Gary (32:12):
Sure, or the stereotype, the indigenous stereotype.
We see so much in the media,but we all have that in common
the Greeks, the Egyptians, Ournative peoples.
Here we all saw theconstellation of Leo as a cat,
the arrangements of stars as acat.
That's something we all hadcommon all over the world, or we

(32:35):
spoke to one another over thethousands of years that we've
occupied this Earth.
We spoke into one another saidhey, how do you see that?
Well, over here we see it likethis, or over here we see it
like that.
And I think the one thing wehad most in common is Leo, I'm
sorry, the constellation ofOrion the hunter, which hunter

(33:00):
gathers all over the world, andthen Leo the cat, the lion, or
even in Christianity, christ isthe lion.
And the belt of Orion, the threepyramids in Giza, plato.
So there may have been aconversation going on between us
human beings all over the world10,000 years ago about the same

(33:24):
stuff, because everyone hadtheir turns.
Looking at the skies, likeIsrael is six, I think it's six
hours ahead of us, so they seethe same skies that we do in
Texas.
Every day, every day, every day, every day.
They see them first.

Matilde (33:41):
And that's even through mythology.
If you read mythology that'swhat helped me learn more about
this painting is mythology islike what was taking place, Just
the mythology of the sun andthe moon and what happened.
Right, it's telling that story,but when you see it come life,

(34:02):
you're like whoa, wait a minutehere.
So that's how you think you canmake the connections of how
other countries or other placestold their story versus how we
told the story.
So just think that would helptoo.
Mythology is just.
It's helped me understand morethese stories of what's taking

(34:26):
place in the cosmos with the sunand the moon and the planets
and all of that.

Angela (34:32):
And touching on the history of humans and knowledge
sharing.
We have the technology now todo our DNA and in my DNA I have
no Asian DNA strands in there,nothing.
Nothing from Asia.
So a lot of us did not comeover the Bering Strait directly

(34:58):
from Africa.
That's very true.

Maureen (35:01):
And so when I saw that, how yeah you showed me that and
how Africa is actually prettyclose to South America, like
there's not that big of waterdistance to get out of those
places Yep.

Matilde (35:19):
That helps a lot.

Maureen (35:20):
Yeah, and mythology wise.
I like mythology because it'son my kids.
I think that Greek and Romanmythology has colonized the
world and that we are allrecreating those patterns,
whether we like it or not,because they've been so
ingrained into us, and so it'simportant to know what they are,

(35:43):
because we're living them andwe're going to keep recreating
those.
And so I read Greek and Romanmythology to make sense out of
the current world, or currentlike matrix, that we're in, I
guess.
And as far as erudinus goes,yeah, it's right here being

(36:05):
looked over as a constellation,as it was for the Greeks and the
Romans, and the name erudinuscame from a river in Babylon,
that's right, it's a battle.
And so which was the birthplaceof civilization, of law, of
legal codes and stuff, and sothat was pretty significant.
And I also read too that theywere trying to find erudinus,

(36:29):
like as a river.
They were like the Romans andGreeks, as they were colonizing
the world, were trying to findthis river with this loop, and
they thought that they found itlike an Italy or something.
And so they just sort of werelike yeah, we found the
constellation river.
I always tell that to peopleI'm like, but it's here it was
here the whole time.

Gary (36:49):
And they know it.

Maureen (36:49):
They know the sacredness of that river.

Gary (36:51):
And we've learned in our research that the powers that be
in Texas they know it too andthey just don't want us to have
access to that information.
And it's in plain sight.
It's in plain sight and I guessthey think they're being funny

(37:11):
or cute by putting it out thereopenly because they don't think
that we know or that we don'tremember.
But we do know.
We know, we're on to the factthat this information is out
there but we don't have accessto it because they don't want us

(37:32):
to have access to it.
I've even been told I was goingto do a presentation in a small
municipality here in Texas awhile back about one of those
particular types of phenomenaand I got a phone call from the
city manager telling me don'tyou dare, Don't you dare come to
this town and tell everybodywhat it is that you have found.
We don't want you to do that.

(37:54):
You can do your presentation,but you may not reveal that
truth or that fact.
I said, sure, I won't mentionit, but I knew right away.
Ok, they know and they don'twant anyone else to know.

Angela (38:10):
There's that interpretation of Eridinus as
being the bringer of wrath tohis enemies.
Do you remember that image?
Yeah, yeah, so that's alwaysgiven me hope.

Gary (38:22):
Inspired me.
You know, the hope.
The last part of thisconversation was about hope, and
what our ancestors?
The reason why our ancestorspainted the White Shaman mural,
was that it's for the hope orthe generations thereafter that
would have come later.
It's hope.
And then I've been told in ournative communities never take

(38:45):
the hope away from the people,always give them something to
look forward to.
You know, the pilgrimagesthrough this region down to the
gardens is hope for the nextpilgrim.
Right, they're going to comedown to the gardens, they're
going to put down their prayers,pray about their grandma or
somebody special.
The way our ancestors paintedthe painting anticipating this

(39:08):
year's Annular.
Eclipse over the missions SanAntonio missions.
We have absolute proof thatshows that our ancestors, 300
years ago, built these missionsdirectly in the path of this
eclipse.
Wow.
Absolute, back-full truth thatyou cannot walk away and ignore
from, and so that's beenoffering myself and my community

(39:33):
, the community that I am thechief of, give it us hope for
that day when it comes.
And there is a second one, atwin, 54 years later.
So we've got to build that hopein our grandchildren, in our
great-grandchildren, to be therefor that moment too.
So, yeah, hope is huge.

(39:55):
Hope is very, very important.

Angela (39:58):
Could you tell us how the missions are translated or
mirrored in the skies?

Gary (40:05):
Sure, the way that the missions are laid out along the
river, let's just say looking.
I want to say looking westearly, because my people would
have seen the layout fromlooking towards the west,
because San Antonio is in someways the west, the underworld

(40:28):
Right.
So mission is father, and thenmission San Juan, and then
mission so Jose, and thenmission conception and mission
ballerro, or analogous to Saturn, venus, jupiter, mercury, mars
all in that order.
All in that order, that exactsame order.
In the rock art.

(40:48):
Our ancestors are laid outalong the painting.
The original Pilgrims to thefirst sunrise are two to the
left of the Milky Way and threeto the right, two ancestors in
the east, three ancestors in thewest.
And the missions are laid outalong the river the exact same
way Two to the left of the river, three to the right, two in

(41:09):
front doors facing east andthree front doors facing the
west.
That's directly connected tothe rock art and in anticipation
of the annular eclipse that'scoming this year.
And so one of the things thatpointed directly to this eclipse
, one of the first thing let mejust say the first thing that
pointed, not the first thing thesecond thing that pointed

(41:29):
directly to this eclipse Was aset of 15 paces.
just above the deer Right herethere's 50.
You can't see them in thispicture that they're very faint,
but there's 15 paces of thedeer.
On this month, on the 29th,you'll have a full moon, the
complete full moon, 100%, andexactly 15 paces or days or

(41:51):
phases of the moon.
Later, you'll have a new moonand an annular eclipse.
That's why we know one way thatwe know that here's here's the
annular eclipse here, upsidedown.
Here's a 50.
Here's this this Like lobe wethe full moon and then, 15 days
later, to here is the annulareclipse.

Matilde (42:12):
And so you have the new moon right in that an area too
so so you get a full moon to anew moon, right, and that's what
gives you the eclipse, right?
And then 15 days later, afterthat eclipse, that solar eclipse
, then you're going to get alunar eclipse somewhere around
the world.

Gary (42:33):
Yeah, so this math applies to any annular eclipse anywhere
in the world.
So that goes back to that goesback to the talk that we're
having about how our ancestorswere sharing information with
other people thousands of yearsago Information about you know

(42:53):
what's going on?
I don't believe that Native.
Americans and North America,central and South America lived
in a vacuum.
There's just absolutely no way.
The world is too big and ourancestors were too brilliant to
bring, to allow themselves Forthat to happen.
You know where it took.
It took the evolution of theworld where it took.
It took the evolution of humanbeings to connect with other

(43:13):
peoples around the world, to Tokeep up with with the times.
But what's unique about Texas isthat everything in Texas and
the teachings that we have hereare rooted in astronomy and
Geography and time.
You know math to root it here.

(43:34):
And so when the, when theSpanish came here, our ancestors
were still living deliberatelyas hunter-gatherers To maintain
that connection to the originalsource the math, the math, space
, time, sacred space, mountains,the temple of the Sun, the
tumble of the moon, your adenas,the four fountains, springs

(43:54):
along I-35 that this was afoundation that our ancestors
here and San Antonio still heldon to, had been holding on to
for thousands of years.
I don't know if they were partof the exodus in 536.
They may have stayed andtoughed it out, I don't know,
couldn't tell you, but this iswhere it, this is where it all

(44:15):
began began.
This is I can say this.

Maureen (44:20):
I believe I can say this as a published Author that
Messer Mesa, america had itsbeginnings in this region, in
Texas well, if you look at thehemisphere hemisphere 1968 their

(44:40):
whole theme, going back to,they know, was called the
confluence of Civilizations.
Yeah, yeah, it's all overHemisphere Park, remember we
went to and there's this onelittle section by that stinky
pool, you know, under by Angel'sfamily's tree.

(45:01):
There's this whole littlesection of all of the people who
, like, funded it and all of theparticipants from all over the
world.
And yeah, it's whole, like thesymbols, like some kind of like
swirly circle, and it's theconfluence of civilizations.
That's what the tower was builtfor.
And so yeah, I was like oh, theyknow well they used to have

(45:22):
what, what.

Matilde (45:24):
What's interesting is that.
Hmm.
I think even in the 60s theystill had the voladores from
Pampantla, from Veracruz.
They were they used to havethat ceremony right and that's
Kind of where.
That's part of my heritage too,which is, you know, from Puebla
.
You know, the Voladores is thePampantla, so what is that?

Angela (45:47):
tell me, it is the.

Matilde (45:50):
So what they do is they cut down a Tall tree the flying
.
Yes, the flying, you know, Iguess there's five of them, and
so, yeah, there's five, right,and so you know, they go up to
the top and then they comeflying down.
You know, so that for me it'sinteresting that they had that

(46:14):
there.
Huh, you know, and for you,mentioning that, that's very
interesting, you know, and again, you know, just to hear a
Certain language, right, youmake that connection like wait a
minute here that you know theconfluence of civilizations.
You know, like of course andagain.
So and that's one of the thingsthat I tell I Was tell, gary, no

(46:36):
, this was a civilization, youknow, it wasn't just People
moving around here and there, it.
You know, we have to seeourselves that our ancestors
were a civilization, right, andnot it did not just moving
around.
Or I have a problem with, Ihave to say, you know, hunter,

(46:56):
gathering or nomad people,because that's like not
grounding our, our ancestors tothe land, you know.
And then, when you Again, whenI learned more about this mural
and then I learned more aboutthe land, I'm like there's no
way there was a civilizationhere, because Everything that's

(47:18):
been found, like all theartifacts you know, throughout
the almost basin and incarnateword and bracken ridge, and you
know, the golf course, I mean,come on, these people were
living here for hundreds ofyears.
They weren't just not moving,passing through.
You know, I'm sorry, but Irefuse to believe that.
So for me it's, it's I feel, andthat it was a big civilization

(47:44):
from, you know, all the way downto either South America,
central Mexico and North America.
It was just all connected, youknow.
But I think we, just I, I, wejust need a.
I think I hope to see the nextgeneration look more into the
history, more into what peoplewere here, and not just based on

(48:10):
the 200, 300 year history thatyou know.
They just want to stick to us.
Right, there's a lot more and so, and again because of them you
know, there's this painting youknow, tells us that you know.

Gary (48:24):
So For me, that's what it's basically what it's telling
, telling me you know or weshould Not disconnect ourselves
anymore from well, no, that'sMexico or no, this is Texas, or
whatever you know, maybe one dayI'll just to what she just said
Maybe one day, on WebsterDictionary, the translation of

(48:49):
hunter-gatherer will becomemaster of the universe.
We can just start making thatshift now, yeah.

Maureen (48:55):
Get it in our minds and just the not negative
connotation that it comes withwith Texas historians.

Matilde (49:00):
Yeah because, you know, I think about the, the Toltecs,
you know the Toltecas, you know, they were the masters of the
universe, you know.
And so sometimes we we think,oh, they were, they were in
South Mexico, but no, I feelthat they were here as well,
just like the old mechs, youknow.
But they just want to want usto believe that we are not part

(49:23):
of that DNA, you know, and weare yeah I think we are you know
, I mean looking at your tattoos, you know.
For me I see Toltec, you know,and if you look at some of the
artifacts or some of the, the,the, the, the, the people that

(49:47):
are at the Texas culture down indowntown, I mean look at those
artifacts, look at those, theway those people were living at
one time.
Have you gone there?

Angela (49:57):
and the Institute of Texas.
Yeah, yeah.

Matilde (50:00):
I mean, and they say but a lot of those artifacts
were found here in San Antonio,but they won't tell you that
which they're gonna knock downexactly that's what I hear, so
to put an arena.

Angela (50:11):
It's already got a name Frost arena.
Of course, yeah, and you know,speaking to this, it seems to me
that a lot of and we've kind ofI've just spoken to you about
this a little bit theEurocentric idea of
civilizations has a lot to dowith its impact on the land, and

(50:31):
so if there's not visual impacton the land, they think there's
nobody there, you know,nobody's doing anything, when
really these people are livingin harmony with it.
So, yeah, it has little impacton the land.

Gary (50:46):
And so Nor no carbon put right, you know leave no trace,
or you know.

Angela (50:52):
And so that's a Another hunter-gatherer gets lumped into
this idea that we're just outhere.
And then the Spanish came andthankfully taught us how to dig
ditches or whatever, and savedus Exactly.

Matilde (51:08):
You know no, yeah, right, but the oldest Assecias
in San Antonio we've learned arethe ones that the Indians built
before the Spanish arrived.
Indigenous.

Gary (51:21):
They're underneath the ones that the Spanish put when
they got here, and above thatare the Germans after they got
here the earliest.
Assecias in the New World arepre-Columbian yeah.

Maureen (51:34):
I believe it.
One of the mind-blowing momentsto me information hearing that
totally wiped out all of thecolonized history I grew up
learning was that most of theroad highway systems in America
are based off of Indigenoustrails.
Yes.
So it was very much acivilization, exactly, and for

(51:55):
me that goes.

Matilde (51:56):
Camino Real, right.
So the Camino Real is anotherthing, that you look at it as
you hear it on the David Orchardscript, as the Old People's
Road, or you hear it as theBuffalo Road or Camino Real.
So there's different languagesthere, right.

(52:20):
But again, that's, what helpsus is getting back to know that
language that we don't useanymore, right, or we don't
speak that language anymore.
The narrative, the narrative, soI mean, and that's one of the
things that, like, I have my12-year-old and I remember him

(52:41):
telling me six, seven years agohe must have been like five and
he says Mom, are we native?
And I said yes, and he says,but we don't speak the language.
And I said, yeah, you're right,you know we don't.
I said, but what mom's going toteach you is how to read the
language, the first language,and he says, really, he says,

(53:01):
well, what is that?
And I was like I'm going toteach you how to read the stars,
that's what I'm going to teachyou.
And the language of the land,that's where you're going to
begin.
You know, because I think attimes, you know, we're trying to
you know, and which is nothingwrong with it, trying to you
know, either trying to fitsomewhere or trying to learn the

(53:21):
language that we don't evenknow.
That's a language.
We just want to speak alanguage, right?
And so I said, no, we're goingto go back to the beginning.
And so for me, it's as a mother, I have that responsibility.
You know, to teach my boys it'sto get to know the stars, get
to know that land, you know, andthen we can say now we can

(53:44):
speak a language.

Maureen (53:46):
That sums up everything that we created this podcast
for.
I feel like right Of getting toknow the language of the stars
and the land, and how it alllike is interconnected and how
we need to know our history andto be able to create the future.
I was wondering with that, withlike wondering about the future

(54:08):
.
I remember when the first storyabout your dynast came out and
the Express News was it.
Was that like the first?
It was like cover page, I think.

Gary (54:17):
I think it was.

Maureen (54:19):
And Angelus sent it to me and I was like so excited,
I'm like, oh my gosh, people aregoing to understand now.
And at the same time I was likeis it going to get appropriated
?
And I was wondering, like ifyou have concerns about that.

Gary (54:34):
I do speak directly to the language itself, our ancestors
language.
The way that my people see myrelatives in Mexico in here is
very sacred because it comesfrom the cosmological worldview,
right.
So I know that there arelanguage programs out there that
are being offered that are ourlanguage in Texas.

(54:55):
It is recorded in theSmithsonian out in Washington DC
and without the cosmology thatlanguage is nearly useless.
Unless you're going to use thatlanguage to talk about honey,
I'll be right back.
I'm going to go to HEB and geta case of beer and a bag of

(55:16):
bologna for dinner.
Why, in my opinion, why botherwith it if you're not going to
use it to re-examine andunderstand the cosmological
narrative?
How did the universe begin inhere, locally?
Or the bigger picture, theWhite Shaman mural in Texas.

(55:39):
The language should reflect thecosmological worldview, not
every day, the day life.
So when we use our languagewe're singing directly to that
star in the sky, directly tothat meteor shower, directly to
those ancestors.
Does that make sense?
Directly to that sunrise or thatsunset, not, I'll be right back

(56:03):
.
So the language, the words aresacred themselves because they
tell us more about in my opinion, they will tell us more about
what was here before the Spanisharrived and wrote it down.
It's meaning before it wascolonized.

(56:25):
So even our language, eventhough it's still in most ways
intact at the Smithsonian, it'sbeen colonized because a
European wrote that recordedwhat we were saying without
asking us what it really meantto us.
They were just trying to record, you know, right?
Oh, this is how they speak,these are the words that they
use, but I'll bet you, those whowere recording our language

(56:50):
never made the connection thatwe had between us and an annual
eclipse, not to mention the factthat there were at least two
annual eclipses that took placeover the state of Texas an
appearance of Haley's Comet overthe state of Texas, and in
nowhere in the historical recordwritten by the conqueror.
As I mentioned, those two annualeclipses and Haley's Comet

(57:11):
nowhere.
Why?
Because they don't want us toconnect to those things.
They deliberately leave thesefantastic phenomena that the
Chinese wrote about, europeanswrote about.
But you get a historian herefrom the 17th, 18th and 19th
centuries about what was goingon.

(57:33):
They won't say a damn thingabout the annual eclipses or
Haley's Comet nothing.
That's where it all you can see.
That's where it all began.
The colonization is.
Don't talk about what they werelooking up in the sky.
Don't tell them why they linedup along the balconies of
Scarborough by the thousands.
Just tell them that they werethere.

(57:53):
Don't tell them why they werethere.
Don't write that down, becausethey'll come back to the same
spot again after we take it fromthem.

Matilde (58:04):
So I want to add to that because of what he
mentioned about how we don'tneed to use that language on our
daily base lives.
For me, I thought about howsome of the Felly recognized
tribes a lot of them are losingthe language.

(58:26):
It's not being passed on right?
So now it's something that theysay wait a minute, here we're
losing the language.
What's going on here?
They've lost a lot of theelders in the community or in
those Felly recognized tribes,and so it just makes me think is
there a reason why thislanguage is not being passed on

(58:47):
Again?
Because maybe that language hada lot to do with, again, the
universe and the land, and if wedon't know that, then that
language is gone.

Angela (59:01):
Language changes how you think Right.

Matilde (59:04):
Right, so exactly, and so for me it just I had to say
that because it's like hearinghim and then what I just said,
it's like wait a minute here.
Maybe that's why I don't know.
Here's what works.
We don't go outside anymore togo watch the sunrise Really, and

(59:24):
sometimes we think people mightlook at us.
That's silly.
What's wrong with that?
Every time I'm driving my sonto school, every time I give,
that's the first meaning that Igive thanks to is that sunrise?
That creator.

(59:46):
Or I always say thank you,father Creator, mother Creator,
for waking up this morning, andso those are things that I share
with my son going to school.
Did you say your prayer, lookat that sun, and you give thanks
, and at times I think sometimeswe think that's silly, but
that's really how it began.
For me, it's acknowledging thatway of life.

(01:00:10):
You don't have to go inside ofa church to say thank you.

Maureen (01:00:15):
You just got to walk outside your house nowadays and
just do it, and so yeah, I lovethat so much because I hear
every morning when I drive mygirls to school I see the sun
rising.
And I don't outwardly say aprayer, but I'm like, wow, isn't
the sun beautiful today girls,but that's such a wonderful
thing to add to it.

(01:00:35):
Let's give gratitude andstarting that day with a prayer.

Matilde (01:00:41):
Yeah, because you begin to understand.
Well, for me I speak for myexperience the colors, yes, the
colors of what the sun is attimes it's not always yellow, as
we think it is right or eventhe sunset, you know.
Or even watching the moon rise,when you said, oh, look at the
moon, right, and so not all thetime it's the same, you know.

Maureen (01:01:09):
Or it's not always rising in the same constellation
.

Matilde (01:01:13):
It really does blow my mind.
So in the morning, with thatsunrise, you can see it during
sunset you know, and that's howit mirrors.
You know, and that's one of thethings that I love is that when
I learn more about and basicallyit's observations, you know,
because I think a lot of timesis well, how did the people do

(01:01:35):
it?
You know, they didn't havetelescopes, they didn't have
this, they didn't have that, youknow.
But if we become more observantof shadow, of light, of these
movements right and sunrise andsunset and so forth, then it
becomes a pattern in your lifeand so you begin to see.

(01:01:58):
Oh okay, you know.
I mean, I remember when I firstwatched Orion it was like in
October, during Halloween I was,you know, taking my little one
at the time in the stroller andI was doing trick-or-treating
just down the street rightBecause he didn't care much for
trick-or-treating, and so I tookhim.

(01:02:19):
But when I looked and I sawOrion rise for the first time in
my life, it was just like whoa,what is that?
you know, and so I began to paymore attention, you know, of
Orion, you know, and so for meit's.
I became the hunter, you know,I became the hunter of going

(01:02:39):
after that knowledge, you know.
And also even I think, as women, we feel that this is a man's
world, right, that they are theonly ones that can hold this
knowledge.
But as women, we can do it,right, by making these
observations that we can be themasters of the universe too, you

(01:03:03):
know, and Mother Earth and soforth, right, I mean just a
number of things.
And so when you begin tocommunicate and you get those
answers back from the universeor the land, it's just, it's
beautiful, you know, it reallyis, and so I like to share that.
One time I, just when I saw allfive planets and I think it

(01:03:28):
must have been like three orfour o'clock in the morning I
walked outside and I, because Iheard that, you know, these five
planets were going to bealigned, and I went outside.
You know I'm going to go, I wantto see that.
You know, and I remember, justpointing at every one of them, I
said I want to know about you,about you, about you and you and
you.
And here I am, you know, I findmyself knowing more about these

(01:03:51):
ancestors, or, as we know them,as you know, the diastrels,
right, but really, you knowthey're there.
You know, and if you have thatcommunication and you ask your
ancestors to guide you, and justdid you want to know, they're
going to let you know.
We just have to be patient, youknow, and just when that time

(01:04:15):
comes, it's going to come, youknow.

Gary (01:04:18):
And I have to admit, I have to admit tell the world
that we've gotten as far as wehave in this research because of
her own discoveries in the rockart and her own understandings
that led me to change my way ofthinking in another direction
and guided me to something new Ihad no idea.
So a woman can do it just aswell as a man.

Maureen (01:04:42):
The balance of masculine and feminine.
Yeah, the duality right.

Matilde (01:04:48):
Which you hear in the Mishika Zen, Sante Ometeo right,
and that's duality.
You know the feminine and themasculine.
You know, and that's part ofcreation, you know, it's part of
creation, you know.

Maureen (01:05:01):
You need a man and a woman to do her own thing.

Matilde (01:05:03):
You need, you need exactly, so you know.
So not just the feminine isabout waters, because without
the man we can't be here, right,but without the woman we can't
be here.
So, it's got to work together,you know and that's another
thing about the painting that Ilove it's again, it's about

(01:05:24):
masculine and feminine comingtogether.

Gary (01:05:27):
It's about creation, man, our ceremonies today, even today
the way that we observe forNative American church
ceremonies is the masculine andthe feminine coming together.
Of the two, of course it hasmore in the Native American
church.
There's more Christian things,you know, thrown in there too,
which kind of makes the churchalmost dogmatic.

(01:05:53):
Native American church dogmaticthrough Christianity about the
male and the female and themasculine and the feminine, but
um, but that's.
I don't believe that, that'swhat it's there for.
Honestly, I don't believe that,because what brings in the
ceremony, what brings men incommon with women, is water.

(01:06:14):
They are both responsible forbringing the water, both the man
and the woman in our NativeAmerican church ceremonies.

Maureen (01:06:24):
Yeah, I was just thinking about when you guys
were like because I had askedlike, are you fearful of
appropriation?
And it just feels like all ofthat some depth to me.
Kind of the answer for that,even for me, when I get fearful
of appropriation of all thingspolitical, is that it just comes
down to us and us living in ourauthenticity.
Like, and you were talkingabout language and it's like you

(01:06:46):
know you can use the languagelike the Smithsonian does, but
it's disconnected, so thatdoesn't even really matter.
Ultimately, what are you doingwith it?
You know, and like, how are youpersonally connecting with all
of these patterns in the sky?
And to me it feels like likedoing that for our descendants.
It's like how am I creatingthese patterns so that my

(01:07:10):
descendants, ultimately, arelike really deeply connected?
And so, whether it's gettingappropriated right now by
entities or not, like I'm justcontinuing to work towards what
my descendants are going toinherit and how they can
continue.

Gary (01:07:26):
That's always been a struggle for me and I learned
early on with my research thatmost people didn't want to hear
it because it's too hard.
Some people wanted to own itbecause they wanted something
for themselves.
So I was always concerned aboutit and what I wound up doing is
just publishing, academically,academic papers, and sometimes I

(01:07:50):
deliberately make this stuff sohard.
The way I understand it, I'llbreak it up into pieces to where
it's almost unrecognizable,because some people just don't
deserve.
Just don't deserve because ofwhat their intentions.
I'm talking about the peoplewho want to appropriate it and

(01:08:11):
get it out there and saying I'mthe master of the universe.
Now.
That is so common in ourcultures, the misappropriation
of our cultures Native American,church, indigenous cultures,
anywhere, if you are notdirectly involved in the culture
, in the community, with thelanguage, with the cosmology,
and you have no business havingit in your possession, unless

(01:08:35):
unless, of course, you go.
Hey, and this was happened,this happened to me.
Hey, brother, elder jefe, wewant what you have, what you
teach us.
That is appropriate.
That is appropriate that youcome to the people who know it
doesn't matter, that's not me,I'm not the only one who knows

(01:08:55):
these things.
But you come to those folks,humble, and say, uncle or
grandpa, would you please showme my place in the universe,
please, would you just give me amoment?
Of chance and they'll give itto you.

Maureen (01:09:08):
Yeah, and that's your descendants knowing that
information deeply.

Gary (01:09:12):
It's like you said you make it complex so that other
people might know bits andpieces, but like your
descendants will know all ofthat, and you know, and we're
going to my presentation onSeptember, the 16th of Saturday,
this coming Saturday For themission in your descendants.
It gives pieces of thatinformation, the academic

(01:09:32):
portion of it is going to beshared academically in order to
write a paper based on the whythe missions were laid out, the
way they were and how.
We know without a doubt thatthey were put in the path of
this eclipse deliberately.
I can't do that publicly.

(01:09:53):
I can give hints publiclybecause there are people out
there who are going to take itand run with it and say, hey, I
told Gary at, or Gary, we toldthat to Gary.
I can't afford that.
Yeah when I, when I want theinformation that's eventually
published to be super accurate,ancestors would have said it

(01:10:13):
exactly using their, theirthoughts and their words, their
observations.
This is how it is, because thisis how the universe lays
everything out, not because Isaid so, but because this is how
the universe lays it all out infront of you.
All we did was follow theuniverse.
We didn't come here and createthese missions along this river

(01:10:36):
because we thought we were beingcute.
Yeah, we were struggling tosurvive, but our ancestors,
ancestors, ancestors, ancestorslearned about this universal law
that we must live by.
Otherwise, we don't know ourplace in the universe or where
we belong in it.
Very, very important.

Angela (01:10:57):
Well, I'm so grateful for you guys to come and share
your knowledge here and sharetime and space with us.

Maureen (01:11:04):
I feel like I have like a hundred more questions and.
I hope you guys might come back, yes.

Matilde (01:11:10):
Sure, of course.
I want to thank you, ladies,for having us.
You know, this is awesome,thank you, thank you.

Maureen (01:11:18):
It was y'all's information that really inspired
this ultimately.

Gary (01:11:23):
There are seeds of there's seeds of four new moons right
here.
I think that they are inNovember and invited back on the
day after this full moon.
I won't talk about it.

Angela (01:11:40):
Sounds like a plan.

Maureen (01:11:40):
Yeah, I'm down.
Yeah, All right till then, Allright, thank you guys.
Thank you, thank you.
I really feel like I kind ofkept going forever.