May 6, 2025 • 44 mins
Summary
In this conversation, the speakers discuss various strategies for fueling during ultra marathons, emphasizing the importance of nutrition, hydration, and timing. They share personal experiences and insights on the transition from solid to liquid foods, the role of electrolytes, and the necessity of personalizing nutrition plans based on individual needs and race conditions.
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Chapters
00:00 The Humor of Ultra Racing
00:51 Fueling Strategies for Ultra Marathons
04:11 The Transition from Solid to Liquid Foods
07:02 Understanding Hunger and Caloric Needs
09:56 The Importance of Timing in Nutrition
12:54 Balancing Solid and Liquid Nutrition
16:03 The Role of Electrolytes and Salt
20:02 Personalizing Your Nutrition Plan
25:03 Fueling Strategies for Endurance Races
32:22 Rescue Fuels and Gut Health
39:11 The Impact of Mental State on Performance
44:02 Lessons Learned from Fueling Mistakes
Takeaways
Liquid calories are often easier to consume during long races.
Timing of nutrition intake is crucial for maintaining energy levels.
It's important to listen to your body's hunger signals during a race.
Personalizing your nutrition plan can enhance race outcomes.
Balance between solid and liquid nutrition can prevent gut issues.
Coca-Cola and similar drinks can be effective f
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Harold and I ran a 12 hour race one time and it was a 24 hour
race, but we jumped in at the 12hour mark and there were guys
that had started the 24 mile race.
It was a one mile loop and they were drinking a beer every week.
Oh God, and they were trying to see how far they get.
Damn. This dude was on like mile 30 or
(00:21):
so. I mean they had a white board.
There's like 3 guys passed out in chairs.
You know, when we jumped in at at 12, it was pretty funny.
That is funny. That's that's fueling.
Have the fueling strategy for the old school ultra guys you
know just. Dive right in there.
All right? Yeah, I'm serious to that.
Cheers, dude. Beer laps.
(00:42):
This is Couch to 50K. How to finish your first ultra
marathon. Let's talk about fueling.
I will not be drinking beer during my first ultra marathon
potentially at the finish line almost immediately.
I am excited to talk about fueling.
(01:02):
It's something that of course, I've done in training and racing
and and other things, but also never taken very seriously
because I've most of the things that I've done have not been
quite this long, right. So typically, regardless of what
I'm doing, I'm going to get through it with probably nothing
if I wanted to anyway, let let'sdive into it.
(01:25):
I'd, I'd love to hear kind of the specific things that that
you like to put in your body while you're while you're
training and racing. And yeah, we'll, we'll go from
there. Yeah, I there's a lot in
fueling. I think the the place that I'll
come at it from and I you know, I think we'll agree on this is
like this is not necessarily howyou would fuel like your elite
(01:50):
runner athlete that's looking tolike break the the tape at like
the fastest end. You know, they're probably going
to be on a more like less Whole Foods and more of a like, you
know, supplement in in like specific running fuel type kind
(02:13):
of kind of stuff. Well, before you go too far
there, there is the thing that I've noticed in the past, at
least for me and it this is running specific is running is
hard right? And I've, I've had problems
eating solid foods during a run,like flat out right, I guess
just hard on the gut. My, my body hasn't ever been
trained to that. So especially with running, I
(02:35):
would always stick to gels and straight water, even like a
Gatorade was up too much for me.Like mid race run, you know,
run. Race.
I think that there is probably some science to that in the fact
that when you're being highly active and all of the blood is
in your extremities, limbs, it'snot in your stomach, you're not
(02:56):
able to digest food. You know, from what I
understand, that's kind of like the basics of it.
In ultra running, you're going to slow down a little bit.
So that is that's kind of where the solid foods start to come
in. You do have some time where
you're not like at your maximum output, you know, if you're able
(03:18):
to run an ultra like you would run a 5K where you're like at
that high end, then you're an elite athlete and you're
probably going to follow a plan that involves drinking your
calories through liquid based, you know, sugars and, and, and
taking in gels and stuff like that.
(03:38):
And there is a place for that for sure in our nutrition plan
as well. But I think there's also a way
to, you know, to use like Whole Foods and not get, you know, the
problem is if you, if you're notworking out at, if you're not
running at that level and you'rejust ingesting the gels and like
(04:02):
the maltodextrin and all that kind of stuff, but you're not at
that output level. They're going to sit in your gut
and you're not going to digest them properly.
And it's like they call gut rot and you just, you know, it's
like diarrhea and like it's not,you know.
So if we want to get to personallevels, I, I will ease into like
(04:23):
a long effort with like fruit inthe morning.
I eat like pouches. I do like fruit pouches like
you'd give your kids, you know, and maybe some like like a nut
like like trail mix or like a kind bar or like, you know, at
that point early in the race, you can still kind of digest
(04:48):
food. You're shouldn't be running too
hard at that point. So you can take on some Whole
Foods at that time. Like I'm a big fan of figs and
dates and like fruit and nuts and granola and all that kind of
stuff early in the race. And then as I, as the race will
(05:12):
progress, I will kind of move inthe middle more into like the
liquid based calories, you know,tailwind that we have here at
the store is a good one. I've used a variety over the
years. I mean, like used to use hammer
stuff. I, I find that like, especially
(05:35):
like during the heat, you know, a lot of times like you start in
the morning and it's cool and then you get into like your
middle of the day kind of run and it's hot out.
Liquid calories are like, that'swhen they go down easy.
That's, that's kind of when those have always worked for me.
And then, you know, after there's a, it's, it's a weird
(05:59):
thing, right, Because there's a like in a very long race,
there's a place where you get towhere I would call it like
having an iron gut where it's just like you are so hungry and
you're burning so many calories that you can just like eat a
cheeseburger. And then it's like you're just,
(06:19):
you're going. But you could be in the opposite
place too, where you can't even put.
It's so hard to like I've, I've dude, I've gone so far on just
drinking Coca-Cola because that's all I could take at the
time. Like my stomach was so upset and
(06:40):
I was like my mouth hurt from eating and all I could do was
drink coke and you know, I kept going.
But I've also been in a positionwhere, you know, I've been able
to eat whatever you put in frontof me just and, and going
obviously I feel like that's a better place to be in, in a, in
a really long race. But I don't know, I kind of
(07:03):
started to ramble there. It's, it's, it's, it's hard
because, you know, for a 50K andfor a three day race, like
fuelling is a totally different thing.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
And I remember watching the livestream and it was one of the aid
stations towards the end, I wantto say.
(07:23):
And they, they were known for like the ribs, like they were
making ribs, right? Like these guys are eating ribs
right now. Like, I hope they're going to
stay there for three hours or so, which of course, nobody is.
You know, people are flying through there, grabbing a rib
and just taking it off down the trail.
In the like, you've burnt so many calories by day three that
(07:46):
you can't the like the hunger isjust beyond you know what I
mean? You can't it's you couldn't eat
enough to to to do it. Now it is interesting because
you you can't digest food that fast as fast as your eyes are
like I want, you know, I want that.
So in this is pretty applicable to across the distance.
(08:10):
Don't finish it. Don't finish the thing right.
So if. No full burgers.
Yeah, like if they hand you a thing, it's like, oh, it's a
bean roll up. Like take a bite of it, you
know, when you're at the aid station at Holcomb Valley and
it's like there's a watermelon that's cut up in front of you,
Take a piece and eat it. And like, don't go for like
(08:32):
piece 5 and 6 and set, you know,because you are going to be, you
know, kind of ravenous at times.And you, you, you're not doing
any benefit to yourself. You can only work with so many
calories, right? Sure.
Yeah, Well, I mean, I guess you're really only trying to
take in what you need to burn tokeep, keep going, right?
(08:56):
Or, you know, or to function at a high level, not, not just to
survive, but right. Like you wouldn't want to eat 4
pieces of watermelon cause your body really only needs the one
at that moment. You need another hour to go by
before you're having something else substantial.
So that's that. That is really interesting.
I do think I would like to applyit to this the 50K distance in
(09:16):
particular, you know, whether that's the 31 typical or maybe
maybe you're doing 50 miles. I think that's, I mean, it's
considerably longer, but it's, it's not 3 days, right.
So, so let's I, I like, I love the, the simplicity of kind of
beginning, middle and end, yeah.You know, and I picture myself
(09:37):
getting really hungry at hour 5-6, right.
Hopefully I'm not out there too much past seven or eight.
I don't know. We'll see what happens.
We'll see what. Happens to get you in under 7.
All right. That that's kind of the goal
I've been having in my mind actually is like 7 hours a good
little benchmark there to see what what happens.
But there's a lot of room to noteat when you're gone for seven
(10:03):
hours. I will put it that way.
You don't, you don't need to fuel for day 2, right?
Right. So allow yourself to be hungry
at the end, but don't, but don'tbonk, right?
You don't want to run out of calories, but you, you also
don't need to like you know, you're going to get to eat
dinner, right? So you want, you want to be
(10:27):
light, you know, you want to be light and you want to be quick
and you want to be processing, you want to be, you know,
digesting the food that you put in.
You don't want to be heavy out there, right?
That's like you, you get out there and you eat too much and
it's the middle of the day and you're climbing up a hill and
it's hot and it's like, well, bro, talk about slowing down.
Like you slow down when you eat too much and, and when you get
(10:50):
too warm, like those two things will kill you in the race.
So you I would start with like with some Whole Foods in the
morning, water wouldn't eat for the first hour, right.
Let's say you're going to be outthere for seven hours.
Don't eat, maybe sip water for the first hour on the hour and
(11:12):
and then in practice this in training, but come up with with
a just a schedule that you'd like to do this, the fueling
things that you need to do, which could be like drink water,
take in calories, take electrolytes, maybe drink
calories, like kind of split them up into like, OK, at hour
(11:36):
one, I'm going to take electrolytes and I'm going to
drink some water, right, becauseyou can only drink so much water
too. So you regulate this stuff and
then it's like, OK, on the 15 minute, I'm going to eat food
and I'm going to drink some water behind it.
And then on the 45 I'm just going to drink water.
And then on the, you know, hour,I'm going to drink electrolytes
(11:59):
and, and you find a, a, a pattern that you can work with
that allows you to like, not have to think about, did I eat
too much? Did I, you know, just just kind
of planned it out and make it simple so you're not guessing
what you're doing during that time.
(12:21):
I think that would be a way to structure it.
Start with some Whole Foods likeand buy Whole Foods fruit
smashed up in a pouch. That's a great.
That's what I like to do at the start.
Maybe like a beef jerky, like a a little piece of beef jerky or
a beef stick or like a piece of cheese or something.
Probably not something most people would carry in their
(12:42):
pack, you know, but like a baby bell cheese and the wax, you
know, just the, the Whole Foods I feel like are a good base for
the day. And then I would move into
liquid calories in the middle ofthe day.
And when you get to an aid station, take a bite of whatever
(13:03):
looks good. That's how I would, that's how I
like to do it 'cause you like some kind of reward system for
where it's like, oh man, those look good.
At this time, that's probably your body telling you you need
what's in that thing. Like, you're pretty smart if you
stop thinking, you know, your body's like, we're in potato
chips, right? Yeah.
It's like, oh, I need salt, you know?
(13:24):
Yep. Chips.
I'm gonna. But don't, you know, eat the
bowl, right? Nice.
Just have some discipline. Do that, you know, take, take
pick at this at the at the aid station of what looks, what
looks good. And then and then I think at the
end of the the day, if you're, you know, in the middle, you're
doing liquid calories and you'repicking what looks good at the
(13:46):
aid station at the end of the day is like your gels and your
you know, it's like your cheaterthings.
It's like I don't want to eat, but I don't want to bonk.
I can squeeze 100 calories into my mouth right now and just, you
know, and not think about it. That's when I go to that.
And then in that end too is alsowhen you go to like the liquid
(14:11):
gold, which is the Coca-Cola or the ginger ale, you know, you.
Put it off. Until until the end when you
need it. But like that that like
Coca-Cola calories work great when you're dying.
Sure, sugar and caffeine in the bubbles help your your stomach,
but I always try to like wait. Like you start drinking Coke at
(14:34):
the first aid station. You're you're drinking it all
day. Yeah, yeah.
And then you have no teeth now that you, you did bring up
something interesting a minute ago that I was that I've been
thinking about. I I've typically really only run
with water and, and then, and then liquid calories in general,
(14:54):
like like gels and such, right? I've struggled, you know, and
this is more triathlon based coming off the bike.
I've already been exercising fora long time and the stomach
doesn't really want anything, right?
So I'm like, what's the simplestthing I can do?
I can suck down a gel and I can drink some water, right?
But I also recognize that that might not be enough to do this
(15:17):
whole thing right. And so I would, I, and this is a
training thing, of course, to experiment with, but I would
like to see what liquid nutrition, hydration thing can
work. And, and not saying that would
be the only fueling, you know, right tool that I would use, but
(15:37):
like something like a Tailwind mix in a bottle or in the gel or
in the flask, right? Well, there's a reason.
Why it's so popular and why theylike, I'll go back to like the
hammer thing. They've been around for a long,
a long time, right? They were, you know, big in the
triathlon world, right? Right, It's easier to digest the
(16:02):
liquids and if you can handle it.
I mean, this is like the whole high carb movement right now.
You know, we we went through like the keto movement.
I feel like that is much more suited to like long distance and
ultra stuff than the high carb. Like the high carb movement
(16:25):
seems to be more on the shorter end.
And then there's like some people that are so fast that
that they can implement it into like the 100 mile game and
stuff. But for most people, like taking
in that many carbs for the amount of time that you're going
to be out there is like, bro, where are you even getting all
that food? You know, it's like it's a lot
(16:47):
and you're just, that's just eating constantly.
And if you're not like galley like running so fast.
So anyway, it, it, the liquids are easier to digest and and
they're going to be an easier way for you to get calories into
your body, especially when it's hot out.
I mean, that's kind of the main that's, but it is interesting,
(17:11):
dude. There's a place in, in there and
I don't, I don't know where it falls, but there's like a place
for the, the recovery style of liquid fueling, like the like
the higher protein stuff. And I feel like when you're out
(17:32):
there and you're eating fruit and then you're eating a, you
know, taking in a tailwind and it's like kind of sweet and
you're, you know, I have watermelon and then you have a
gel and it's like, you have thislike like higher, like acidic,
like base. There is something settling to
(17:55):
drinking like a like a protein shake or, or like even eating
like a piece of bacon or like a like a cheese quesadilla.
You'll find the stuff at like aid stations and it's like,
well, that's weird. That's like opposite, you know,
that's not. But there's like a balance in
your stomach that you have to find.
(18:18):
And it's like to get to that place where you can take in
anything when you're hungry, youhave to be at that balance.
You can't be like too far on thelike if you're just taking him
jealous. I get, I get to where I can like
my stomach's like it's weird. But yeah, like it's like those
(18:39):
Atkins drinks or like Boost or whatever.
It's like, that is like the neutralizer against whatever the
thing that is making you have like heartburn and, and stuff
from all the sweet stuff. Because there's a lot of, yeah,
you'll go to a lot of aid stations and ultras and it's
like Sour Patch Kids and like, you know, it's like, it's all
(19:01):
like sugar. It's like because.
You. Know and I got some energy but
then your stomach's like yeah I'm sure it's.
Like APH balance thing happeningin your gut, right?
And we, I think go back to to what you said earlier, you, you
also know that in your logical brain, even if it's
(19:22):
subconscious, like, oh, that sugary stuff doesn't look good
right now, even though I love mic and Ikes, right, right,
right now I need a potato chip to, you know, get the salt
balanced back in, in, in check. And that, you know, that's an
interesting thing we haven't quite talked about yet.
Obviously we need salt electrolytes to keep absorbing
the even just the water, right. So all of these things
(19:46):
important. I do think it's all just very
personal, right, In terms of thethings you like and the things
you don't. There's certain things we know
the body needs and we've coveredthat at this point, I think.
And so, yeah, I think it's, I think it's about finding what
works for you. Yeah, the salt.
The salt part is very it's I don't know if it's like
(20:08):
contentious. Some, I think some people are
are like you don't take salt tablets.
You know, I've heard that like you can't you, you shouldn't
take salt tablets when you're running.
I, you know, well, here's the let me.
Ask you this question on on the salt note, I've, I've heard this
theory floated before that if I'm sweating and I'm seeing
salt, then I have too much salt.That's my body's way of, of
(20:31):
getting rid of it. You know, your, your gut
instinct might be and gut instinct.
Sorry for the pun, but you know that, oh, look at all this salt
that I'm losing. I need to eat more salt, right?
I, I've seen that in the extremefor myself and I don't really
know where the balance of that is exactly.
Like as I the, the Iron Man thatI did, I pre packed my, my
(20:55):
bottles on my bike with whateverit was, you know, like a
Gatorade powder mix, that it wasn't Gatorade, but something
and it didn't mix right. And I went, I went off and
waited for an hour and I did my long swim and I came back and it
was just a chunk of salt in the bottom of this thing.
And I was, you know, I was racing, right?
I was dying and I just sucked itdown, went all went to my head
(21:19):
and the rest of my day was fucked, quite honestly.
But I did, I sweat it out like 15 minutes later my whole body
was covered in salt, right 'cause my body's like I get rid
of this, it's way too much and it probably didn't need
anything, you know, all I had done was and swimming's hard,
but you know, I was trained for a full day, didn't.
Need to replenish after, didn't need.
(21:40):
Didn't need that much, right. So that's interesting to me.
You know, I, I think staying, I think we know we need salt,
right? And it's typically in the mixes,
it's in the drinks. If it's called electrolyte
something, it's got salt of somekind in it, right?
And you're, you're getting that.So, yeah, there, there's,
there's an interesting thing there of keeping that balanced,
(22:01):
I think. And I, you know, I, I, like I
said, I, I don't have a prescription for myself that I
use really in training or, or anything yet, but it's something
that I'm, I'm ready to focus on.So it's so you.
You definitely want to practice with it, right, like everything
else that we've talked about. So I would recommend like at
this point in your training to just pick pick a a salt
(22:27):
supplement that you can use in the race.
Salt stick is one of them. And they used carbopro was a
brand that used to be around. They used to make a, a product
called meta salt and I used thata a bunch That was a good one.
They had they had ginger and turmeric in it.
(22:47):
So it had like some like anti nausea, anti inflammation
property too. And you know, like I would take
two of those every hour for 80 hours.
Damn. Yeah, right.
Yes and maybe like in the middleof the night I'd forget some
(23:08):
hours, but when it was hot out, maybe I'd take four of them, you
know, 'cause it and it just constantly trying to make sure
that I'm staying balanced and it's like you'd it's again, it's
one of those things like in training, you don't put your
body into the same position thatyou do when you're in deep into
(23:34):
a long race. So like how you know like do you
need to take in that much salt when you're going for a four
hour training run? Like probably not you're
probably going to be fine at theend of four hours, but in terms
of like getting all the way through something really long.
So just apply that to like your situation, like, OK, if you're
going to need to take in salt for seven hours, like start
(23:58):
practicing with it now, make sure it doesn't bother you on a
one hour run. But I, I, I've personally found
that I do better when I'm regular with salt supplements
throughout a run there. It's an important part of what
I, what I, what I use. I think it helps like I've
(24:19):
noticed it like in terms of being able to stomach of the
calories and stuff, you know, it, it, it seems like it helps a
lot in that kind of in that way cramping and etcetera is
probably like the second, you know, thing that it helps.
(24:39):
I, I can tell like when I'm low on it, you know, I like, like
that mental thing, like I'll getto the aid station.
I'll look at like a jar of Pickles, Not like I'm going to
drink that whole thing. You know what I mean?
It's like, OK, I probably need some salt, you know, Right,
right. That's a good one though.
Like when you roll to an aid station, have some Pickles, dude
cut like throw a pickle in your mouth.
(25:01):
That that's a great, great one. Take a shot of pickle juice if
they, if they have it available,usually at a aid station, you're
going to find like a bowl of salt, like a potato.
Dip the potato in the salt you get people will.
I don't know, I'm not. I think Nicodemus was talking
(25:21):
about this. He came to Kodiak and he did
like a presentation on Carbopro before the race one time.
And he was talking about it. And I've, I've heard other
people do it and basically like the salt capsules, like if
you're really hurting, like openit up and dump it under your
tongue. Yeah, I guess that's supposed to
like, get it into your bloodstream faster.
(25:42):
I don't know if that I. Just gotta be faster, right?
Straight. Delivery that sounds awful they
make. Suppositories.
I'm not, I don't know. I said do that.
I don't know how, I don't know how into it people are, you
know? It's all over the place.
Yeah, Yeah. Nice.
Well, so we've talked about a lot of the things that we need
(26:04):
just to keep performing and to go harder.
I, I do want to talk about like a rescue fuel.
We mentioned, you mentioned briefly, you know, like ginger
and coke and things like that. So it very, very common to have
issues while you're out there putting in a hard effort,
(26:24):
especially over a long period oftime, right.
Maybe you just feel like you can't have anything at all like
in that, in that instance, like what do you go to?
Like what, what are the thing? And this is something you carry
with you 'cause it might happen in in between aid stations and
it's so brutal. You just want to you know what I
mean? Like I think level.
One is ginger level 1's ginger. They make ginger candy like
(26:47):
individually wrapped ginger chews.
Those are great. They also you can go to like a
grocery buy bulk like sugared candied ginger which is another
good one but ginger is really good on for nausea.
So first the first thing is justsuck on a piece of ginger and be
(27:10):
surprised how how much your moodand motivation is tied to your
stomach. Right.
It's like. It's not fun to feel sick, to
feel nauseous. So it's, it's like you can be
out there and it can be hard, but still enjoyable.
(27:30):
But when you're nauseous, it's not enjoyable.
Like it's not, it's not even fun.
It's, it's like you want to curlup on the couch, right?
It's just like that feeling of like wanting it to be over.
Ginger does a lot for that. And that would then extend to
ginger ale. That's an easy ask at the aid
station you run in. And so you can carry ginger, you
(27:52):
can carry a couple of ginger chews one step further, you can
carry some Tums where it's like,you know, maybe you need like
that the bat, like the, the ginger helps like the flavor,
but like Tums can help you know,with your gut like in terms of,
you know, the like the actual. Indigestion.
(28:14):
Yeah. But then like out of aid station
ginger ale is it's got like the combination of the bubbles and
the ginger. It's very soothing on the
stomach. And then like the next level and
you you could probably find thisat like a well run 50K probably
later in the day is going to be like chicken noodle soup or like
(28:38):
bone broth, super salty. It's like the thing you got when
you were sick when you were a kid.
I was about to say all. This stuff is just what we do
when we're sick. Yeah, and.
There's the there's also the BRAT diet, right?
Bananas, rice, apples. And what is the other one?
I have no idea. I never.
Heard the BRAT diet the BRAT diet, the BRAT diet like when
(29:00):
your kid doesn't is being a BRATand they don't feel good these
are the things that they will eat and it's like bananas rice
applesauce and I forget what thetea is but we'll.
Have to look that. Up.
Stick it in the show. Notes, but those are.
Again, those are those are things that are easy to eat,
easy to digest. You're probably going to find
(29:22):
them at the aid station like a rice ball or something.
People make make those yeah thatyou know so those would be the
first things I've I've gotten tothe point in in Coke is probably
a like it's not as soothing as ginger ale, but it's got more
(29:48):
sugar and more caffeine and thenthen the bubbles as well the the
carbonation really helps. I've gotten to the point in long
races where I've only been able to take on soup before and coke.
Those are two things that I've I've finished long races on.
Like at Tour de Jean, I could only drink coke at the end and
(30:13):
it was like the IT had my, my tongue was like raw from the
like the carbonation of this, like it was it and probably just
dehydrating 'cause I couldn't even drink water.
And so I just had like, you know, 2 soft flasks full of
(30:34):
coke, leave every aid station and would just be sipping on it
and it got to like my tongue. My mouth hurts so bad.
But all like the only thing I could do was drink choke dude.
Man, OK, yeah, that feels good. I feel like we got a nice little
overview of of fuelling here. Name of the game practice, try
(30:55):
it out in training, you know, like there's and that there's
ways to I think we talked about it outside of the podcast, but
you know, like, if you want to do some testing, maybe skip
breakfast, go out on the run andtry to eat, you know, so you're
mimicking at least more of the end of the race then, you know,
because if if you're just havinga normal day and you go out
(31:16):
there for your hour run, none ofnothing's going to be hard,
right. So like, how do we make that
that training run harder so thatwe can test those things?
I'll say. Two things.
One of one of them is This is why there's a hike.
This is not the only reason, butpart of why there's a hike in
the plan now is because that is going to hopefully force you or
(31:40):
encourage you to be out there for longer.
And so you can practice with some of these things, you know,
while you're out there for for longer.
And the second thing was be opento completely abandoned your
fueling strategy during the raceand do what's working because,
(32:03):
you know, like we were talking about your body knowing and
like, if you're having to force it, it's probably, you know,
it's, it might not be what you need.
And even if that's what you practiced with, if you get out
there and it's like, oh, all I can eat is bean roll ups.
And that's what they have never,you know, for some reason that
bean roll up looks great. I'm going to eat it, you know,
(32:26):
and I'm going to go, you know, eat another bean roll up like
just, you know, do do what worksin in the race, because I think
it's a very, very difficult thing to nail.
And no, I've packed so many dropbags with all my nutrition for
the race and then not touch one of them now.
And, and I've dude, I know from being a race director and taking
(32:50):
drop bags away from the race, like I would have a garage full
of drop dude, This one guy who was like open up a drop bag and
it's like a pound of gummy bears.
You know, it's like a pound. Like dude.
What are you? Going to do with that full
pound. That's funny.
(33:10):
Come on dude. Oh man.
That's great. Well, before we wrap, I want you
to retell me the story you told me before we started recording
about sodium bicarbonate, such ahot topic right now.
It's really interesting. Saw a post the other day about
it was at the Olympics, at the past Olympics and it said like
85% of the sprinters out there were, you know, on a some sort
(33:34):
of Martin buy carb plan to perform at the highest level.
Of course, we've already talked about how we're not trying to
perform at that level and probably don't need these types
of things to complete our first one.
But I am interested, interested to hear that personal story I
did. This is my doping story.
I had, I had a friend who introduced me to a like a boxing
(33:59):
coach up here in Big Bear boxing, like MMA training and
boxing. And it's all, it's all really
big. It's a been a big, it's been
like what people came up here totrain for.
And Ted, he brought, he invited me to a grappling class and that
then he he broke my rib. But that's another story.
(34:20):
He's like twice my size. He's a big.
Dude, so the we. Were talking to the coach
afterwards, I was training for an Iron Man and he just like
took it upon himself to send me this like supplement routine
that he suggests like he would give to all his boxers and his
MMA guys. And I like I couldn't understand
(34:43):
any. I didn't, It was all like
chemicals, you know, like I can't, I don't even, I don't
know any of the words, you know,they were, it was just like
things that had no idea where I would get them or what they were
or anything. It was like this full
prescription and but there was one thing on there that says
sodium bicarbonate. And I was like, oh, like baking
(35:05):
soda. And I was like, I can, I can
take that, you know. So leading up to Iron Man, I
think it was 2011 maybe or 2012,I drank like a liter of water
every day with like a tablespoonof baking soda in it or
(35:26):
something like that. I, I don't remember, it was
something like that. Maybe more maybe it was like 2
liters or something. And on race day, my stomach was
just a knot. It was a full knot.
Like it was the tightest crampedstomach that I've ever felt that
I couldn't, I couldn't release it.
(35:50):
Like it was just like there was no, I couldn't drink water.
I couldn't, I could not do any, I couldn't ingest any type of
food or fuel or anything. And well, I, I forced myself to
there's Iron Man. So I swam, I got on the bike and
I was using Hammer nutrition at the time.
(36:11):
It's called perpetuum. It was like a orange flavor
perpetuum and I just forced myself to drink it for like the
first hour and then I just threw, I then I just was thrown
up on the bike and I, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't eat a
banana. I couldn't drink water.
And yeah, it was my slowest IronMan that I finished, I walked.
(36:35):
I mean, I got off the bike and Iwalked and I, I, I don't
remember my time, but it was very, very slow.
And yeah, so it isn't, that's probably, I don't know, close to
15 years, 1015 years ago. And so then like I, I recently
too started seeing like all thisstuff about sodium bicarbonate,
(36:57):
like bicarb being the thing. And so I started looking into
it, and it seems like there's a company out there that has
figured out a way to get around the the indigestion and the
nausea that drinking baking sodacauses.
And and. I think there was a big, I think
the big take away that I took from it was, you know, the, the
(37:21):
whole point of, of taking bakingsoda is to buffer lactic acid.
It's like. So for like an MMA guy who's
going to go out there and go at 100% for 12 minutes, it's like,
yeah, lactic acid is a is a thing.
But like for a mid pack, you know, Iron Man dude who's like
(37:43):
like in an endurance state for 12 hours, like lactic acid
buildup is not the thing that I needed to be fighting, you know,
So it was, I mean, anyway, it was.
I had no, like I did no researchinto it.
I didn't. I wasn't taking any other
(38:03):
supplements that would like I had.
There was no reason why I shouldhave drank baking.
So like it was like, oh, maybe this will make me fast.
Yeah, you know. Well, this does lead me in an
interesting place. I mean, obviously that's an
extreme example. Mistakes were made, right?
Right. My mom.
Still like talk shit to me aboutit.
I believe it, I believe it. Your mom's a fireball.
(38:25):
That doesn't, that doesn't fall short for me, but that like
there's, there's a mimicking of that tightness feeling in the
gut that can come with nerves aswell.
Notice this on race mornings before, you know, practice all
the things. I got the whole plan and then
I'm sitting there and I'm like freaking out, 'cause I got a big
goal or, you know, my new girlfriend's there or whatever
(38:48):
it was right. Or, you know, my family's coming
out to watch, right. So like just stress and anxiety,
I think can also have a huge impact on your gut.
I've felt that many, many times.So, you know, we talked about
our sort of rescue feels in there that that can help things
like that. But you know that those are
things that, at least for me, once you get started, dissipate.
(39:11):
I like I. I do.
I do something very specific to avoid that feeling and it's I
don't eat dinner the night before a race.
Well, OK. And then I don't.
Have to take shit in the morning, yeah?
And. And it's just like the, in
general, the, the, the mental ofgetting out the poop and like,
(39:36):
you know, just the whole thing. And, and I feel like I'm like,
there's like a, there's a hunger.
And I mean that in like the mental sense from being hungry,
you know, and it's like, once you start working, running and
stuff, you're not hungry in the same way that like you want
breakfast anymore. Cause your body's active and
(39:56):
you're, you know, you're, you're, it's like, I feel like
you get quicker into the, the mode of burning the calories the
way you want to be burning them if you're already in that state
leading up to the race, you know, And so.
Yeah, I've I that's something that like I slowly kind of like
fell into from it and it it it was like came out of the like
(40:20):
preload carb dinner, which was like the exact opposite.
But then it came. It's like at some point I was
like, maybe I'll just eat the salad tonight, you know, because
I don't, I don't want to have tostand in the line at the porta
potty. And it's like a mental thing to
(40:41):
not have to think about like, amI going to have to take a dump
on the trail if I can't go in the port?
You know, there's just the wholeprocess.
And if you don't eat dinner the night before you?
Usually you. Don't really have to take a dump
that's that's. That's a great point 'cause I, I
sort of kind of figured that outby like just sort of on my own.
(41:02):
The carb loading, big dinner thenight before was a huge thing,
especially when we were younger.I don't know if it's still a big
thing out there with Race Factory.
You know, Oh yeah, as a high school kid before whatever.
Absolutely. Like the whole team was to go.
To like the. All you can eat whatever and
it's just pasta and bread and what it just anything and
(41:24):
everything. I remember eating so much like,
oh, this doesn't make me faster,you know?
And then I wake up and I'm like,I don't need to eat anything at
all. And in reality, I probably ate
enough calories that I didn't need to eat for the whole
freaking race. You know, like just from the
night before, which clearly is not the state you want your body
in as you're towing the startingline, right?
Like you want to feel light and ready to ready to go, but
(41:46):
probably. Practiced with it a couple
times. Yeah, right.
Yeah, yeah. Same kind of thing we've been
talking about. Like, OK, I got a long run on
Saturday. Maybe I'm just gonna like I'm
gonna have a early really light dinner tonight when I eat it
4:00 PM And I'm gonna avoid the the carbs, you know, and I'm
gonna eat like half a steak and some salad or whatever it is.
(42:07):
And and then yeah, get up and doyour run and and practice with
it. But I think there's I I really
like that feeling of being lightand like ready to go versus the
like I have all the fuel that I will need, which is kind of like
what the fueling, the pre carb dinner, even like Iron Man does
(42:28):
it. They have a pre race dinner and
it's pasta and it's like, you know, I don't know.
I don't feel like light and fastafter I eat a big bowl of pasta.
Never. It's weird.
It's a weird thing. It is weird.
Yeah, I think it's just, you know, decades old mentality of
(42:51):
carb loading so that you have carbs to burn, you know, and
there's maybe there's truth in there somewhere.
I I don't think. They maybe aid stations didn't
have gels. Yeah, before the gel industry
took off. Yeah, yeah, they just had
cigarettes and speed. That sounds fun.
(43:14):
We could do a race like that. Yeah, we have to talk.
About that one day, there's a a history of of endurance running
way way, way long ago, like the six day race and stuff where
they, you know, he used all kinds of techniques to stay
awake and keep going. It's called pedestrianism.
(43:34):
Interesting. Yeah.
Madison Square Garden, early 1900s with the World's Fair.
Did people bet on how long you know this guy could run around
in a circle versus this guy? It's like.
A tortoise race or something. It's like what's happening.
It's like the. Mafia and like, you know, you're
(43:55):
going to go out out there and you're going to run for 10 days.
Or are you going to die or are you going to die?
I like it. Have some cigs.
Cool, man. We, we covered some good
fueling. We've got a, a rescue strategy.
We've got a what not to do. We've got lots of things in
there. I feel pretty good about it.
I think the biggest take away, which we said many, many times
is to try it out first and try to mimic that that race day,
(44:20):
hard effort, depleted body in intraining if we can.
And that all that all makes a lot of sense to me for sure.
Nice. Cheers man, Cheers.
Couch to 50K is an elevated SoCal project.
All rights reserved.
Harold and I ran a 12 hour race one time and it was a 24 hour
race, but we jumped in at the 12hour mark and there were guys
that had started the 24 mile race.
It was a one mile loop and they were drinking a beer every week.
Oh God, and they were trying to see how far they get.
Damn. This dude was on like mile 30 or
(00:21):
so. I mean they had a white board.
There's like 3 guys passed out in chairs.
You know, when we jumped in at at 12, it was pretty funny.
That is funny. That's that's fueling.
Have the fueling strategy for the old school ultra guys you
know just. Dive right in there.
All right? Yeah, I'm serious to that.
Cheers, dude. Beer laps.
(00:42):
This is Couch to 50K. How to finish your first ultra
marathon. Let's talk about fueling.
I will not be drinking beer during my first ultra marathon
potentially at the finish line almost immediately.
I am excited to talk about fueling.
(01:02):
It's something that of course, I've done in training and racing
and and other things, but also never taken very seriously
because I've most of the things that I've done have not been
quite this long, right. So typically, regardless of what
I'm doing, I'm going to get through it with probably nothing
if I wanted to anyway, let let'sdive into it.
(01:25):
I'd, I'd love to hear kind of the specific things that that
you like to put in your body while you're while you're
training and racing. And yeah, we'll, we'll go from
there. Yeah, I there's a lot in
fueling. I think the the place that I'll
come at it from and I you know, I think we'll agree on this is
like this is not necessarily howyou would fuel like your elite
(01:50):
runner athlete that's looking tolike break the the tape at like
the fastest end. You know, they're probably going
to be on a more like less Whole Foods and more of a like, you
know, supplement in in like specific running fuel type kind
(02:13):
of kind of stuff. Well, before you go too far
there, there is the thing that I've noticed in the past, at
least for me and it this is running specific is running is
hard right? And I've, I've had problems
eating solid foods during a run,like flat out right, I guess
just hard on the gut. My, my body hasn't ever been
trained to that. So especially with running, I
(02:35):
would always stick to gels and straight water, even like a
Gatorade was up too much for me.Like mid race run, you know,
run. Race.
I think that there is probably some science to that in the fact
that when you're being highly active and all of the blood is
in your extremities, limbs, it'snot in your stomach, you're not
(02:56):
able to digest food. You know, from what I
understand, that's kind of like the basics of it.
In ultra running, you're going to slow down a little bit.
So that is that's kind of where the solid foods start to come
in. You do have some time where
you're not like at your maximum output, you know, if you're able
(03:18):
to run an ultra like you would run a 5K where you're like at
that high end, then you're an elite athlete and you're
probably going to follow a plan that involves drinking your
calories through liquid based, you know, sugars and, and, and
taking in gels and stuff like that.
(03:38):
And there is a place for that for sure in our nutrition plan
as well. But I think there's also a way
to, you know, to use like Whole Foods and not get, you know, the
problem is if you, if you're notworking out at, if you're not
running at that level and you'rejust ingesting the gels and like
(04:02):
the maltodextrin and all that kind of stuff, but you're not at
that output level. They're going to sit in your gut
and you're not going to digest them properly.
And it's like they call gut rot and you just, you know, it's
like diarrhea and like it's not,you know.
So if we want to get to personallevels, I, I will ease into like
(04:23):
a long effort with like fruit inthe morning.
I eat like pouches. I do like fruit pouches like
you'd give your kids, you know, and maybe some like like a nut
like like trail mix or like a kind bar or like, you know, at
that point early in the race, you can still kind of digest
(04:48):
food. You're shouldn't be running too
hard at that point. So you can take on some Whole
Foods at that time. Like I'm a big fan of figs and
dates and like fruit and nuts and granola and all that kind of
stuff early in the race. And then as I, as the race will
(05:12):
progress, I will kind of move inthe middle more into like the
liquid based calories, you know,tailwind that we have here at
the store is a good one. I've used a variety over the
years. I mean, like used to use hammer
stuff. I, I find that like, especially
(05:35):
like during the heat, you know, a lot of times like you start in
the morning and it's cool and then you get into like your
middle of the day kind of run and it's hot out.
Liquid calories are like, that'swhen they go down easy.
That's, that's kind of when those have always worked for me.
And then, you know, after there's a, it's, it's a weird
(05:59):
thing, right, Because there's a like in a very long race,
there's a place where you get towhere I would call it like
having an iron gut where it's just like you are so hungry and
you're burning so many calories that you can just like eat a
cheeseburger. And then it's like you're just,
(06:19):
you're going. But you could be in the opposite
place too, where you can't even put.
It's so hard to like I've, I've dude, I've gone so far on just
drinking Coca-Cola because that's all I could take at the
time. Like my stomach was so upset and
(06:40):
I was like my mouth hurt from eating and all I could do was
drink coke and you know, I kept going.
But I've also been in a positionwhere, you know, I've been able
to eat whatever you put in frontof me just and, and going
obviously I feel like that's a better place to be in, in a, in
a really long race. But I don't know, I kind of
(07:03):
started to ramble there. It's, it's, it's, it's hard
because, you know, for a 50K andfor a three day race, like
fuelling is a totally different thing.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
And I remember watching the livestream and it was one of the aid
stations towards the end, I wantto say.
(07:23):
And they, they were known for like the ribs, like they were
making ribs, right? Like these guys are eating ribs
right now. Like, I hope they're going to
stay there for three hours or so, which of course, nobody is.
You know, people are flying through there, grabbing a rib
and just taking it off down the trail.
In the like, you've burnt so many calories by day three that
(07:46):
you can't the like the hunger isjust beyond you know what I
mean? You can't it's you couldn't eat
enough to to to do it. Now it is interesting because
you you can't digest food that fast as fast as your eyes are
like I want, you know, I want that.
So in this is pretty applicable to across the distance.
(08:10):
Don't finish it. Don't finish the thing right.
So if. No full burgers.
Yeah, like if they hand you a thing, it's like, oh, it's a
bean roll up. Like take a bite of it, you
know, when you're at the aid station at Holcomb Valley and
it's like there's a watermelon that's cut up in front of you,
Take a piece and eat it. And like, don't go for like
(08:32):
piece 5 and 6 and set, you know,because you are going to be, you
know, kind of ravenous at times.And you, you, you're not doing
any benefit to yourself. You can only work with so many
calories, right? Sure.
Yeah, Well, I mean, I guess you're really only trying to
take in what you need to burn tokeep, keep going, right?
(08:56):
Or, you know, or to function at a high level, not, not just to
survive, but right. Like you wouldn't want to eat 4
pieces of watermelon cause your body really only needs the one
at that moment. You need another hour to go by
before you're having something else substantial.
So that's that. That is really interesting.
I do think I would like to applyit to this the 50K distance in
(09:16):
particular, you know, whether that's the 31 typical or maybe
maybe you're doing 50 miles. I think that's, I mean, it's
considerably longer, but it's, it's not 3 days, right.
So, so let's I, I like, I love the, the simplicity of kind of
beginning, middle and end, yeah.You know, and I picture myself
(09:37):
getting really hungry at hour 5-6, right.
Hopefully I'm not out there too much past seven or eight.
I don't know. We'll see what happens.
We'll see what. Happens to get you in under 7.
All right. That that's kind of the goal
I've been having in my mind actually is like 7 hours a good
little benchmark there to see what what happens.
But there's a lot of room to noteat when you're gone for seven
(10:03):
hours. I will put it that way.
You don't, you don't need to fuel for day 2, right?
Right. So allow yourself to be hungry
at the end, but don't, but don'tbonk, right?
You don't want to run out of calories, but you, you also
don't need to like you know, you're going to get to eat
dinner, right? So you want, you want to be
(10:27):
light, you know, you want to be light and you want to be quick
and you want to be processing, you want to be, you know,
digesting the food that you put in.
You don't want to be heavy out there, right?
That's like you, you get out there and you eat too much and
it's the middle of the day and you're climbing up a hill and
it's hot and it's like, well, bro, talk about slowing down.
Like you slow down when you eat too much and, and when you get
(10:50):
too warm, like those two things will kill you in the race.
So you I would start with like with some Whole Foods in the
morning, water wouldn't eat for the first hour, right.
Let's say you're going to be outthere for seven hours.
Don't eat, maybe sip water for the first hour on the hour and
(11:12):
and then in practice this in training, but come up with with
a just a schedule that you'd like to do this, the fueling
things that you need to do, which could be like drink water,
take in calories, take electrolytes, maybe drink
calories, like kind of split them up into like, OK, at hour
(11:36):
one, I'm going to take electrolytes and I'm going to
drink some water, right, becauseyou can only drink so much water
too. So you regulate this stuff and
then it's like, OK, on the 15 minute, I'm going to eat food
and I'm going to drink some water behind it.
And then on the 45 I'm just going to drink water.
And then on the, you know, hour,I'm going to drink electrolytes
(11:59):
and, and you find a, a, a pattern that you can work with
that allows you to like, not have to think about, did I eat
too much? Did I, you know, just just kind
of planned it out and make it simple so you're not guessing
what you're doing during that time.
(12:21):
I think that would be a way to structure it.
Start with some Whole Foods likeand buy Whole Foods fruit
smashed up in a pouch. That's a great.
That's what I like to do at the start.
Maybe like a beef jerky, like a a little piece of beef jerky or
a beef stick or like a piece of cheese or something.
Probably not something most people would carry in their
(12:42):
pack, you know, but like a baby bell cheese and the wax, you
know, just the, the Whole Foods I feel like are a good base for
the day. And then I would move into
liquid calories in the middle ofthe day.
And when you get to an aid station, take a bite of whatever
(13:03):
looks good. That's how I would, that's how I
like to do it 'cause you like some kind of reward system for
where it's like, oh man, those look good.
At this time, that's probably your body telling you you need
what's in that thing. Like, you're pretty smart if you
stop thinking, you know, your body's like, we're in potato
chips, right? Yeah.
It's like, oh, I need salt, you know?
(13:24):
Yep. Chips.
I'm gonna. But don't, you know, eat the
bowl, right? Nice.
Just have some discipline. Do that, you know, take, take
pick at this at the at the aid station of what looks, what
looks good. And then and then I think at the
end of the the day, if you're, you know, in the middle, you're
doing liquid calories and you'repicking what looks good at the
(13:46):
aid station at the end of the day is like your gels and your
you know, it's like your cheaterthings.
It's like I don't want to eat, but I don't want to bonk.
I can squeeze 100 calories into my mouth right now and just, you
know, and not think about it. That's when I go to that.
And then in that end too is alsowhen you go to like the liquid
(14:11):
gold, which is the Coca-Cola or the ginger ale, you know, you.
Put it off. Until until the end when you
need it. But like that that like
Coca-Cola calories work great when you're dying.
Sure, sugar and caffeine in the bubbles help your your stomach,
but I always try to like wait. Like you start drinking Coke at
(14:34):
the first aid station. You're you're drinking it all
day. Yeah, yeah.
And then you have no teeth now that you, you did bring up
something interesting a minute ago that I was that I've been
thinking about. I I've typically really only run
with water and, and then, and then liquid calories in general,
(14:54):
like like gels and such, right? I've struggled, you know, and
this is more triathlon based coming off the bike.
I've already been exercising fora long time and the stomach
doesn't really want anything, right?
So I'm like, what's the simplestthing I can do?
I can suck down a gel and I can drink some water, right?
But I also recognize that that might not be enough to do this
(15:17):
whole thing right. And so I would, I, and this is a
training thing, of course, to experiment with, but I would
like to see what liquid nutrition, hydration thing can
work. And, and not saying that would
be the only fueling, you know, right tool that I would use, but
(15:37):
like something like a Tailwind mix in a bottle or in the gel or
in the flask, right? Well, there's a reason.
Why it's so popular and why theylike, I'll go back to like the
hammer thing. They've been around for a long,
a long time, right? They were, you know, big in the
triathlon world, right? Right, It's easier to digest the
(16:02):
liquids and if you can handle it.
I mean, this is like the whole high carb movement right now.
You know, we we went through like the keto movement.
I feel like that is much more suited to like long distance and
ultra stuff than the high carb. Like the high carb movement
(16:25):
seems to be more on the shorter end.
And then there's like some people that are so fast that
that they can implement it into like the 100 mile game and
stuff. But for most people, like taking
in that many carbs for the amount of time that you're going
to be out there is like, bro, where are you even getting all
that food? You know, it's like it's a lot
(16:47):
and you're just, that's just eating constantly.
And if you're not like galley like running so fast.
So anyway, it, it, the liquids are easier to digest and and
they're going to be an easier way for you to get calories into
your body, especially when it's hot out.
I mean, that's kind of the main that's, but it is interesting,
(17:11):
dude. There's a place in, in there and
I don't, I don't know where it falls, but there's like a place
for the, the recovery style of liquid fueling, like the like
the higher protein stuff. And I feel like when you're out
(17:32):
there and you're eating fruit and then you're eating a, you
know, taking in a tailwind and it's like kind of sweet and
you're, you know, I have watermelon and then you have a
gel and it's like, you have thislike like higher, like acidic,
like base. There is something settling to
(17:55):
drinking like a like a protein shake or, or like even eating
like a piece of bacon or like a like a cheese quesadilla.
You'll find the stuff at like aid stations and it's like,
well, that's weird. That's like opposite, you know,
that's not. But there's like a balance in
your stomach that you have to find.
(18:18):
And it's like to get to that place where you can take in
anything when you're hungry, youhave to be at that balance.
You can't be like too far on thelike if you're just taking him
jealous. I get, I get to where I can like
my stomach's like it's weird. But yeah, like it's like those
(18:39):
Atkins drinks or like Boost or whatever.
It's like, that is like the neutralizer against whatever the
thing that is making you have like heartburn and, and stuff
from all the sweet stuff. Because there's a lot of, yeah,
you'll go to a lot of aid stations and ultras and it's
like Sour Patch Kids and like, you know, it's like, it's all
(19:01):
like sugar. It's like because.
You. Know and I got some energy but
then your stomach's like yeah I'm sure it's.
Like APH balance thing happeningin your gut, right?
And we, I think go back to to what you said earlier, you, you
also know that in your logical brain, even if it's
(19:22):
subconscious, like, oh, that sugary stuff doesn't look good
right now, even though I love mic and Ikes, right, right,
right now I need a potato chip to, you know, get the salt
balanced back in, in, in check. And that, you know, that's an
interesting thing we haven't quite talked about yet.
Obviously we need salt electrolytes to keep absorbing
the even just the water, right. So all of these things
(19:46):
important. I do think it's all just very
personal, right, In terms of thethings you like and the things
you don't. There's certain things we know
the body needs and we've coveredthat at this point, I think.
And so, yeah, I think it's, I think it's about finding what
works for you. Yeah, the salt.
The salt part is very it's I don't know if it's like
(20:08):
contentious. Some, I think some people are
are like you don't take salt tablets.
You know, I've heard that like you can't you, you shouldn't
take salt tablets when you're running.
I, you know, well, here's the let me.
Ask you this question on on the salt note, I've, I've heard this
theory floated before that if I'm sweating and I'm seeing
salt, then I have too much salt.That's my body's way of, of
(20:31):
getting rid of it. You know, your, your gut
instinct might be and gut instinct.
Sorry for the pun, but you know that, oh, look at all this salt
that I'm losing. I need to eat more salt, right?
I, I've seen that in the extremefor myself and I don't really
know where the balance of that is exactly.
Like as I the, the Iron Man thatI did, I pre packed my, my
(20:55):
bottles on my bike with whateverit was, you know, like a
Gatorade powder mix, that it wasn't Gatorade, but something
and it didn't mix right. And I went, I went off and
waited for an hour and I did my long swim and I came back and it
was just a chunk of salt in the bottom of this thing.
And I was, you know, I was racing, right?
I was dying and I just sucked itdown, went all went to my head
(21:19):
and the rest of my day was fucked, quite honestly.
But I did, I sweat it out like 15 minutes later my whole body
was covered in salt, right 'cause my body's like I get rid
of this, it's way too much and it probably didn't need
anything, you know, all I had done was and swimming's hard,
but you know, I was trained for a full day, didn't.
Need to replenish after, didn't need.
(21:40):
Didn't need that much, right. So that's interesting to me.
You know, I, I think staying, I think we know we need salt,
right? And it's typically in the mixes,
it's in the drinks. If it's called electrolyte
something, it's got salt of somekind in it, right?
And you're, you're getting that.So, yeah, there, there's,
there's an interesting thing there of keeping that balanced,
(22:01):
I think. And I, you know, I, I, like I
said, I, I don't have a prescription for myself that I
use really in training or, or anything yet, but it's something
that I'm, I'm ready to focus on.So it's so you.
You definitely want to practice with it, right, like everything
else that we've talked about. So I would recommend like at
this point in your training to just pick pick a a salt
(22:27):
supplement that you can use in the race.
Salt stick is one of them. And they used carbopro was a
brand that used to be around. They used to make a, a product
called meta salt and I used thata a bunch That was a good one.
They had they had ginger and turmeric in it.
(22:47):
So it had like some like anti nausea, anti inflammation
property too. And you know, like I would take
two of those every hour for 80 hours.
Damn. Yeah, right.
Yes and maybe like in the middleof the night I'd forget some
(23:08):
hours, but when it was hot out, maybe I'd take four of them, you
know, 'cause it and it just constantly trying to make sure
that I'm staying balanced and it's like you'd it's again, it's
one of those things like in training, you don't put your
body into the same position thatyou do when you're in deep into
(23:34):
a long race. So like how you know like do you
need to take in that much salt when you're going for a four
hour training run? Like probably not you're
probably going to be fine at theend of four hours, but in terms
of like getting all the way through something really long.
So just apply that to like your situation, like, OK, if you're
going to need to take in salt for seven hours, like start
(23:58):
practicing with it now, make sure it doesn't bother you on a
one hour run. But I, I, I've personally found
that I do better when I'm regular with salt supplements
throughout a run there. It's an important part of what
I, what I, what I use. I think it helps like I've
(24:19):
noticed it like in terms of being able to stomach of the
calories and stuff, you know, it, it, it seems like it helps a
lot in that kind of in that way cramping and etcetera is
probably like the second, you know, thing that it helps.
(24:39):
I, I can tell like when I'm low on it, you know, I like, like
that mental thing, like I'll getto the aid station.
I'll look at like a jar of Pickles, Not like I'm going to
drink that whole thing. You know what I mean?
It's like, OK, I probably need some salt, you know, Right,
right. That's a good one though.
Like when you roll to an aid station, have some Pickles, dude
cut like throw a pickle in your mouth.
(25:01):
That that's a great, great one. Take a shot of pickle juice if
they, if they have it available,usually at a aid station, you're
going to find like a bowl of salt, like a potato.
Dip the potato in the salt you get people will.
I don't know, I'm not. I think Nicodemus was talking
(25:21):
about this. He came to Kodiak and he did
like a presentation on Carbopro before the race one time.
And he was talking about it. And I've, I've heard other
people do it and basically like the salt capsules, like if
you're really hurting, like openit up and dump it under your
tongue. Yeah, I guess that's supposed to
like, get it into your bloodstream faster.
(25:42):
I don't know if that I. Just gotta be faster, right?
Straight. Delivery that sounds awful they
make. Suppositories.
I'm not, I don't know. I said do that.
I don't know how, I don't know how into it people are, you
know? It's all over the place.
Yeah, Yeah. Nice.
Well, so we've talked about a lot of the things that we need
(26:04):
just to keep performing and to go harder.
I, I do want to talk about like a rescue fuel.
We mentioned, you mentioned briefly, you know, like ginger
and coke and things like that. So it very, very common to have
issues while you're out there putting in a hard effort,
(26:24):
especially over a long period oftime, right.
Maybe you just feel like you can't have anything at all like
in that, in that instance, like what do you go to?
Like what, what are the thing? And this is something you carry
with you 'cause it might happen in in between aid stations and
it's so brutal. You just want to you know what I
mean? Like I think level.
One is ginger level 1's ginger. They make ginger candy like
(26:47):
individually wrapped ginger chews.
Those are great. They also you can go to like a
grocery buy bulk like sugared candied ginger which is another
good one but ginger is really good on for nausea.
So first the first thing is justsuck on a piece of ginger and be
(27:10):
surprised how how much your moodand motivation is tied to your
stomach. Right.
It's like. It's not fun to feel sick, to
feel nauseous. So it's, it's like you can be
out there and it can be hard, but still enjoyable.
(27:30):
But when you're nauseous, it's not enjoyable.
Like it's not, it's not even fun.
It's, it's like you want to curlup on the couch, right?
It's just like that feeling of like wanting it to be over.
Ginger does a lot for that. And that would then extend to
ginger ale. That's an easy ask at the aid
station you run in. And so you can carry ginger, you
(27:52):
can carry a couple of ginger chews one step further, you can
carry some Tums where it's like,you know, maybe you need like
that the bat, like the, the ginger helps like the flavor,
but like Tums can help you know,with your gut like in terms of,
you know, the like the actual. Indigestion.
(28:14):
Yeah. But then like out of aid station
ginger ale is it's got like the combination of the bubbles and
the ginger. It's very soothing on the
stomach. And then like the next level and
you you could probably find thisat like a well run 50K probably
later in the day is going to be like chicken noodle soup or like
(28:38):
bone broth, super salty. It's like the thing you got when
you were sick when you were a kid.
I was about to say all. This stuff is just what we do
when we're sick. Yeah, and.
There's the there's also the BRAT diet, right?
Bananas, rice, apples. And what is the other one?
I have no idea. I never.
Heard the BRAT diet the BRAT diet, the BRAT diet like when
(29:00):
your kid doesn't is being a BRATand they don't feel good these
are the things that they will eat and it's like bananas rice
applesauce and I forget what thetea is but we'll.
Have to look that. Up.
Stick it in the show. Notes, but those are.
Again, those are those are things that are easy to eat,
easy to digest. You're probably going to find
(29:22):
them at the aid station like a rice ball or something.
People make make those yeah thatyou know so those would be the
first things I've I've gotten tothe point in in Coke is probably
a like it's not as soothing as ginger ale, but it's got more
(29:48):
sugar and more caffeine and thenthen the bubbles as well the the
carbonation really helps. I've gotten to the point in long
races where I've only been able to take on soup before and coke.
Those are two things that I've I've finished long races on.
Like at Tour de Jean, I could only drink coke at the end and
(30:13):
it was like the IT had my, my tongue was like raw from the
like the carbonation of this, like it was it and probably just
dehydrating 'cause I couldn't even drink water.
And so I just had like, you know, 2 soft flasks full of
(30:34):
coke, leave every aid station and would just be sipping on it
and it got to like my tongue. My mouth hurts so bad.
But all like the only thing I could do was drink choke dude.
Man, OK, yeah, that feels good. I feel like we got a nice little
overview of of fuelling here. Name of the game practice, try
(30:55):
it out in training, you know, like there's and that there's
ways to I think we talked about it outside of the podcast, but
you know, like, if you want to do some testing, maybe skip
breakfast, go out on the run andtry to eat, you know, so you're
mimicking at least more of the end of the race then, you know,
because if if you're just havinga normal day and you go out
(31:16):
there for your hour run, none ofnothing's going to be hard,
right. So like, how do we make that
that training run harder so thatwe can test those things?
I'll say. Two things.
One of one of them is This is why there's a hike.
This is not the only reason, butpart of why there's a hike in
the plan now is because that is going to hopefully force you or
(31:40):
encourage you to be out there for longer.
And so you can practice with some of these things, you know,
while you're out there for for longer.
And the second thing was be opento completely abandoned your
fueling strategy during the raceand do what's working because,
(32:03):
you know, like we were talking about your body knowing and
like, if you're having to force it, it's probably, you know,
it's, it might not be what you need.
And even if that's what you practiced with, if you get out
there and it's like, oh, all I can eat is bean roll ups.
And that's what they have never,you know, for some reason that
bean roll up looks great. I'm going to eat it, you know,
(32:26):
and I'm going to go, you know, eat another bean roll up like
just, you know, do do what worksin in the race, because I think
it's a very, very difficult thing to nail.
And no, I've packed so many dropbags with all my nutrition for
the race and then not touch one of them now.
And, and I've dude, I know from being a race director and taking
(32:50):
drop bags away from the race, like I would have a garage full
of drop dude, This one guy who was like open up a drop bag and
it's like a pound of gummy bears.
You know, it's like a pound. Like dude.
What are you? Going to do with that full
pound. That's funny.
(33:10):
Come on dude. Oh man.
That's great. Well, before we wrap, I want you
to retell me the story you told me before we started recording
about sodium bicarbonate, such ahot topic right now.
It's really interesting. Saw a post the other day about
it was at the Olympics, at the past Olympics and it said like
85% of the sprinters out there were, you know, on a some sort
(33:34):
of Martin buy carb plan to perform at the highest level.
Of course, we've already talked about how we're not trying to
perform at that level and probably don't need these types
of things to complete our first one.
But I am interested, interested to hear that personal story I
did. This is my doping story.
I had, I had a friend who introduced me to a like a boxing
(33:59):
coach up here in Big Bear boxing, like MMA training and
boxing. And it's all, it's all really
big. It's a been a big, it's been
like what people came up here totrain for.
And Ted, he brought, he invited me to a grappling class and that
then he he broke my rib. But that's another story.
(34:20):
He's like twice my size. He's a big.
Dude, so the we. Were talking to the coach
afterwards, I was training for an Iron Man and he just like
took it upon himself to send me this like supplement routine
that he suggests like he would give to all his boxers and his
MMA guys. And I like I couldn't understand
(34:43):
any. I didn't, It was all like
chemicals, you know, like I can't, I don't even, I don't
know any of the words, you know,they were, it was just like
things that had no idea where I would get them or what they were
or anything. It was like this full
prescription and but there was one thing on there that says
sodium bicarbonate. And I was like, oh, like baking
(35:05):
soda. And I was like, I can, I can
take that, you know. So leading up to Iron Man, I
think it was 2011 maybe or 2012,I drank like a liter of water
every day with like a tablespoonof baking soda in it or
(35:26):
something like that. I, I don't remember, it was
something like that. Maybe more maybe it was like 2
liters or something. And on race day, my stomach was
just a knot. It was a full knot.
Like it was the tightest crampedstomach that I've ever felt that
I couldn't, I couldn't release it.
(35:50):
Like it was just like there was no, I couldn't drink water.
I couldn't, I could not do any, I couldn't ingest any type of
food or fuel or anything. And well, I, I forced myself to
there's Iron Man. So I swam, I got on the bike and
I was using Hammer nutrition at the time.
(36:11):
It's called perpetuum. It was like a orange flavor
perpetuum and I just forced myself to drink it for like the
first hour and then I just threw, I then I just was thrown
up on the bike and I, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't eat a
banana. I couldn't drink water.
And yeah, it was my slowest IronMan that I finished, I walked.
(36:35):
I mean, I got off the bike and Iwalked and I, I, I don't
remember my time, but it was very, very slow.
And yeah, so it isn't, that's probably, I don't know, close to
15 years, 1015 years ago. And so then like I, I recently
too started seeing like all thisstuff about sodium bicarbonate,
(36:57):
like bicarb being the thing. And so I started looking into
it, and it seems like there's a company out there that has
figured out a way to get around the the indigestion and the
nausea that drinking baking sodacauses.
And and. I think there was a big, I think
the big take away that I took from it was, you know, the, the
(37:21):
whole point of, of taking bakingsoda is to buffer lactic acid.
It's like. So for like an MMA guy who's
going to go out there and go at 100% for 12 minutes, it's like,
yeah, lactic acid is a is a thing.
But like for a mid pack, you know, Iron Man dude who's like
(37:43):
like in an endurance state for 12 hours, like lactic acid
buildup is not the thing that I needed to be fighting, you know,
So it was, I mean, anyway, it was.
I had no, like I did no researchinto it.
I didn't. I wasn't taking any other
(38:03):
supplements that would like I had.
There was no reason why I shouldhave drank baking.
So like it was like, oh, maybe this will make me fast.
Yeah, you know. Well, this does lead me in an
interesting place. I mean, obviously that's an
extreme example. Mistakes were made, right?
Right. My mom.
Still like talk shit to me aboutit.
I believe it, I believe it. Your mom's a fireball.
(38:25):
That doesn't, that doesn't fall short for me, but that like
there's, there's a mimicking of that tightness feeling in the
gut that can come with nerves aswell.
Notice this on race mornings before, you know, practice all
the things. I got the whole plan and then
I'm sitting there and I'm like freaking out, 'cause I got a big
goal or, you know, my new girlfriend's there or whatever
(38:48):
it was right. Or, you know, my family's coming
out to watch, right. So like just stress and anxiety,
I think can also have a huge impact on your gut.
I've felt that many, many times.So, you know, we talked about
our sort of rescue feels in there that that can help things
like that. But you know that those are
things that, at least for me, once you get started, dissipate.
(39:11):
I like I. I do.
I do something very specific to avoid that feeling and it's I
don't eat dinner the night before a race.
Well, OK. And then I don't.
Have to take shit in the morning, yeah?
And. And it's just like the, in
general, the, the, the mental ofgetting out the poop and like,
(39:36):
you know, just the whole thing. And, and I feel like I'm like,
there's like a, there's a hunger.
And I mean that in like the mental sense from being hungry,
you know, and it's like, once you start working, running and
stuff, you're not hungry in the same way that like you want
breakfast anymore. Cause your body's active and
(39:56):
you're, you know, you're, you're, it's like, I feel like
you get quicker into the, the mode of burning the calories the
way you want to be burning them if you're already in that state
leading up to the race, you know, And so.
Yeah, I've I that's something that like I slowly kind of like
fell into from it and it it it was like came out of the like
(40:20):
preload carb dinner, which was like the exact opposite.
But then it came. It's like at some point I was
like, maybe I'll just eat the salad tonight, you know, because
I don't, I don't want to have tostand in the line at the porta
potty. And it's like a mental thing to
(40:41):
not have to think about like, amI going to have to take a dump
on the trail if I can't go in the port?
You know, there's just the wholeprocess.
And if you don't eat dinner the night before you?
Usually you. Don't really have to take a dump
that's that's. That's a great point 'cause I, I
sort of kind of figured that outby like just sort of on my own.
(41:02):
The carb loading, big dinner thenight before was a huge thing,
especially when we were younger.I don't know if it's still a big
thing out there with Race Factory.
You know, Oh yeah, as a high school kid before whatever.
Absolutely. Like the whole team was to go.
To like the. All you can eat whatever and
it's just pasta and bread and what it just anything and
(41:24):
everything. I remember eating so much like,
oh, this doesn't make me faster,you know?
And then I wake up and I'm like,I don't need to eat anything at
all. And in reality, I probably ate
enough calories that I didn't need to eat for the whole
freaking race. You know, like just from the
night before, which clearly is not the state you want your body
in as you're towing the startingline, right?
Like you want to feel light and ready to ready to go, but
(41:46):
probably. Practiced with it a couple
times. Yeah, right.
Yeah, yeah. Same kind of thing we've been
talking about. Like, OK, I got a long run on
Saturday. Maybe I'm just gonna like I'm
gonna have a early really light dinner tonight when I eat it
4:00 PM And I'm gonna avoid the the carbs, you know, and I'm
gonna eat like half a steak and some salad or whatever it is.
(42:07):
And and then yeah, get up and doyour run and and practice with
it. But I think there's I I really
like that feeling of being lightand like ready to go versus the
like I have all the fuel that I will need, which is kind of like
what the fueling, the pre carb dinner, even like Iron Man does
(42:28):
it. They have a pre race dinner and
it's pasta and it's like, you know, I don't know.
I don't feel like light and fastafter I eat a big bowl of pasta.
Never. It's weird.
It's a weird thing. It is weird.
Yeah, I think it's just, you know, decades old mentality of
(42:51):
carb loading so that you have carbs to burn, you know, and
there's maybe there's truth in there somewhere.
I I don't think. They maybe aid stations didn't
have gels. Yeah, before the gel industry
took off. Yeah, yeah, they just had
cigarettes and speed. That sounds fun.
(43:14):
We could do a race like that. Yeah, we have to talk.
About that one day, there's a a history of of endurance running
way way, way long ago, like the six day race and stuff where
they, you know, he used all kinds of techniques to stay
awake and keep going. It's called pedestrianism.
(43:34):
Interesting. Yeah.
Madison Square Garden, early 1900s with the World's Fair.
Did people bet on how long you know this guy could run around
in a circle versus this guy? It's like.
A tortoise race or something. It's like what's happening.
It's like the. Mafia and like, you know, you're
(43:55):
going to go out out there and you're going to run for 10 days.
Or are you going to die or are you going to die?
I like it. Have some cigs.
Cool, man. We, we covered some good
fueling. We've got a, a rescue strategy.
We've got a what not to do. We've got lots of things in
there. I feel pretty good about it.
I think the biggest take away, which we said many, many times
is to try it out first and try to mimic that that race day,
(44:20):
hard effort, depleted body in intraining if we can.
And that all that all makes a lot of sense to me for sure.
Nice. Cheers man, Cheers.
Couch to 50K is an elevated SoCal project.
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