November 25, 2024 • 33 mins
Join us on the latest episode of Count Me In as Adam Larson sits down with Jeremy Earnshaw, a seasoned executive coach and mentor, to talk about the transformative power of continuous coaching and mentoring. Jeremy breaks down the misconceptions around coaching, explaining why it's not just a quick fix but a vital, ongoing journey. Listen as Jeremy shares his unique "no fault" policy and underscores the importance of having genuine, systemic changes within organizations. Discover how Jeremy's extensive experience as a CFO and his passion for coaching and mentoring have driven effective leadership and long-term organizational success. Whether you're in leadership, HR, or just curious about enhancing professional development, this is one conversation you won't want to miss. Tune in to understand why coaching can be a strategic game-changer for your career and your company.
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Episode Transcript
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Adam Larson (00:21):
Welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson,
and today we have anenlightening episode for you.
Joining us is season executivecoach and mentor, Jeremy
Earnshaw. Jeremy brings a richbackground as a CFO and now
dedicates his expertise tohelping individuals and
organizations achieve their fullpotential. We'll be discussing
the ongoing nature of coaching,the importance of genuine
(00:41):
organizational change, and howeffective leadership fosters
self awareness andaccountability.
Jeremy will share his journeyfrom training recruits in Europe
to creating his own successfulcoaching practice. We'll explore
the critical role of aligningcoaching with strategic goals
and how it can transform bothindividuals and teams. This
episode is packed with valuableinsights, so let's dive right
in. Well, Jeremy, I just reallyexcited to have you on the
(01:10):
podcast, and thank you so muchfor coming on. And today, we're
gonna be talking a lot aboutcoaching, especially coaching
the the c level group.
And there's a lot of things wecan cover around coaching, but
first, I wanna start. How didyou what was your journey to
becoming a coach, especially acoach for c level folks?
Jeremy Earnshaw (01:26):
Quite a long one. And and thanks for having
me on the on the podcast, Adam.It takes me back to 1991,
actually, when I delivered sometraining, I suppose you would
call it then, to quite a lot ofour new recruits in Europe, and
it was quite an extensiveperiod. We did it for 2 to 3
weeks. Really enjoyed it, parkedit in the memory bank, went off
(01:47):
and did 6 major CFO roles invarious kinds of organizations.
And what really triggered itback was going on one of these c
suite management strategy awaydays around 10 years ago. And it
was one of those events whichjust sticks in your memory as
(02:09):
being not delivering anythingthat we're trying to do. We're
not delivering individualcoaching. We're not making the
team better. And it justprompted me again to think there
is a better way of continuouslearning than some of the
interventions that we've beendoing in the past.
So I said to myself, I'm goingto do this. I'm going to do it
better. I've always enjoyeddoing it on an informal basis,
(02:32):
being a coach and a mentor. AndI took myself back off to
university, went to 2 differentuniversities, gained a master's
degree here in the UK, set up myown practice at the same time,
and became a full time coach anda mentor. Really, really engaged
in developing individuals,developing teams, and actually
developing systems within whichthey operate in organizations as
(02:55):
well.
So quite a long journey, Adam,but triggered by those events
and recognizing that I use aphrase that there's this
perception in in corporateorganization world where there
is a perception of perfectionall the time that people hire
new recruits. You put peopleinto new roles and expect people
(03:16):
to be at that 100 out of 100level, and nobody is. And this
and that and that's what we'retrying to do. We're trying to
get people from 6, 7, 8 out of10 to 10 out of 10 and try to
help them on the way. So that'sit's been quite a long journey,
Adam, but I'm really pleasedthat I've got there in the end
and, really enjoying it.
(03:36):
For sure. Yeah.
Adam Larson (03:36):
I remember one job I started at and, my first day,
they said, read the website. AndI sat there kinda, like,
clicking all the links. And,like, after about an hour, I'm
like, what do you want me to donext? And I I feel like there's
always a big gap a lot of timeswhen you come in or you come
into new roles, you know,especially, like, even somebody
going from, non management tomanagement. They're okay.
Now you have people under you.You're like, what am I supposed
(03:57):
to do now? You raised you raisedexactly the point that isn't
thought about enough. Lots of,
Jeremy Earnshaw (04:03):
I think, individuals and lots of
organizations, they think aboutwhat I call the gains of either
moving role, moving sector,moving organization, and they
think about the great new title,the the fact that they've got
team of people around them, theyhaven't necessarily thought
about all the extra painsinvolved in those roles. So
(04:25):
having to make new relationshipswith your peer group,
potentially, as you said, Adam,having a number of people
working with you as opposed tomaybe just being more of an
individual, having to create newrelationships with maybe
external stakeholders, You mightbe in a in a sector for the
first time. You might be in aboardroom or a c suite room for
(04:47):
the first time. You might haveexternal investors, external
bankers or lenders for the firsttime. And yet we're too busy
sometimes in corporate worldpatting ourselves on the back
and giving ourselves a round ofapplause for bringing in a great
new person.
And they may be great, butthey're they're moving into
another level. That that ladderhas just gone up, And yet I just
(05:10):
think coaching and mentoring canreally help people cement their
place in that particular area.And I don't I'm sure you may
have heard this statistic aswell, Adam. I think it's
something like between 50 70% ofpeople going into C Suite
boardroom roles and not in postafter 18 months for a whole
(05:35):
variety of reasons. There's lotsand lots of stats from Harvard
Business School, from executivesearch reviews and surveys.
It's a real risk. So for me,coaching and mentoring is
derisking that as well as doingall the positives as well.
Adam Larson (05:52):
Yeah. That's huge. You know, when you hear about
coaching and mentoring, somepeople are very open to it,
others aren't. What's some ofthe resistance that you get,
when you're trying to say, hey,this is really important, and
how do you kinda overcome that?
Jeremy Earnshaw (06:07):
You're right. And that's a resistance that I
think we still face. And I thinkwe're to blame to a certain
extent in our industry as well.And I'll I'll give you my
response to the to the industryand then go back to the question
about maybe the individualchallenges that we get. As an
industry, it's relatively new.
So really only from the early90s have we been thinking
(06:30):
coaching and mentoring. And inthe last 30, just 30 odd years,
it's been largely unregulated aswell. So I don't think the
sector, the industry has doneitself any favors by not
regulating itself properly. Andeven now, despite the fact that
there are professionalaccreditation organizations, it
(06:53):
is almost as if if you changeyour LinkedIn banner, you can
become a coach and a mentor.It's not quite as easy as that.
And some of the more sensiblethings to think about are, what
about the code of ethics thatyou sign up to? So I'm a member,
for example, of the EuropeanMentoring and Coaching Council,
and I subscribe to a global codeof ethics. So the more
(07:15):
regulation that we can have froma relatively low base point, the
better. Coming back to some ofthe individual responses, we get
perhaps challenged that it's abit fluffy. It's a nice.
It's a bit one of those thingsyou do in a friendly
organization, in a socialenterprise, and everybody pats
everybody else on the back. AndI think there's that challenge
(07:38):
which is coming from aleadership style, which is more
command and control and show andtell of 30 to 40 years ago when
I started. So I think what isvery much now a influencing and
a distributed leadership model.For the challenge, I think, that
we've got as coaches andmentors, and this is why I did
(07:59):
the work that I didacademically, is to try and at
least have some relationshipbetween the objectives of the
organization and what you'retrying to do for the individual
and the organization and theteam as well. And actually have
a direct link between whatyou're trying to achieve.
And Some of the challenges, andI still have people come to me
(08:21):
as potential clients and say,I'm interested in doing either
some one to group or one to onecoaching. And you asked the
question you posed the question,what do you want to achieve? And
it's as if it's not been thoughtabout. And I think that's part
of the challenge as well to asyou would with any other kind of
(08:41):
project, any other intervention,work out what you're trying to
deliver in the first instance.So make sure your program of
coaching and mentoring isabsolutely bespoke what the
organization and the individualand the teams want to achieve.
And I think that can dispel someof that, well, we're not quite
sure what it is. Therefore,we're not quite sure what we
(09:04):
want out of it. I think that'sthe challenge to get across. And
and if you do it properly, andif you listen to the client, it
can be done really, really welland have really tangible
results.
Adam Larson (09:15):
I can really see that resistance that you were
describing because I'm sure whensome when some people hear
coaching or mentoring, theythink I have to go, like, a Tony
Robbins conference, and I haveto listen to him yelling at me
for an hour, and I'm gonna feelreally inspired, and I'm gonna
do great things. But I I whatyou're describing is something
more specific, something moretargeted, and something that's
really that really kinda getsthe heart of what somebody's
(09:36):
dealing with, like, in and andtaking it at a at an
organizational level as opposedto individuals going and doing
it on their own and findingrandom people. But as an
organization, putting it towardsyour goals to really raise up
the people who you're who you'rewith. And to me, that sounds
like a much better model thanwhat we, a lot of times, think
about when we think about thosecorporate coaches.
Jeremy Earnshaw (09:56):
Yep. And I think you you're absolutely
right. Some of the albeitvaluable learning and
development interventions areaimed perhaps quite generically.
You and I probably all been oncourses in the past where you
sit in a room maybe with 15 or20 people. You can guarantee
(10:16):
that 5 people are listening.
You can guarantee that 5 peopletalk more than anybody else. And
then there's the the group of 10in the middle who are not quite
sure whether they're gettinganything out of this at all. And
I just think, like like anythingelse, coaching and mentoring
let's take coaching, and there'sa difference as well. Coaching
is usually largely targetedtowards helping an individual or
(10:41):
a team with a specific issue anda real reason for change.
Mentoring is perhaps more aboutthe growth and the maturity of
the individual to enable them togrow into their role, into their
sector, into their organization.
I think it really helps inmentoring if you've if you've
gone a mile in their shoes aswell. So Yeah. My particular
(11:04):
brand of coaching is all aimedat being a combination of
academic and real livedexperience. If I was to turn
around, I've got a lot of scarson my back as many coaches and
mentors will have as well. And Ithink whoever you select as your
coach, having somebody who satround that boardroom table and
seen a dysfunctionalorganization at work, it really,
(11:27):
really helps.
And having that link, like likeyou would have with a with a
traditional KPI, you measureyour KPIs, you work out whether
you're achieving what you wantto achieve because you've got
some reference points. And thenhopefully, you've got some
challenges and actions to seewhether you're going to achieve
(11:48):
your objectives in the future.It's the same with coaching and
mentoring. What are you tryingto achieve? Is it the growth of
a team?
Because we all know that wemight have some fantastically
talented individuals who mightnot be brilliant team players.
So how do you do that? How doyou how do you get that team to
work? And then there's the teamof teams. So you've got your
marketing, your sales team, yourfinance team, your people team.
(12:11):
You've got a team of teams, allagain, trying to get to the same
objective, which is to grow thecompany, achieve some financial
results, achieve, whatever youmight want to be doing with
sustainable development goals,for example. So just working out
and having that bespokeengagement, which determines
what you're trying to achieve,can be so valuable, and coaches
(12:32):
and mentors should be doingthat.
Adam Larson (12:35):
So there's a lot I wanna unpack there, but I think
we you should take a quick stepback real quick. And just can
you define what a coach is andwhat a mentor is, maybe the
difference? Because people mightbe assuming that they're same
thing, and I know they're notthe same thing, but let's maybe
put a definition out there so wecan people can kinda understand
what we've been discussing.Yeah.
Jeremy Earnshaw (12:52):
Well, let's think about what what a really
good coach needs to have. Theythey need they need to be
compassionate. They need tounderstand the individual that
they're coaching. They need tobe curious. They have to have
that curiosity to, as you say,to unpack what's in the backpack
of the individual or the teamthat you're coaching.
(13:13):
What's in there that you need totry and get out without going
round the back and opening upyourself? You you need to get
that individual or team tounpack that backpack themselves,
and you need to be courageous byasking the questions that maybe
haven't been asked before. Whatwhat isn't working? Why is it
not working? And you need to bea good listener, and you need to
(13:35):
be a good questioner aswell-to-be a coach.
Mostly, it's aimed at anindividual or a team struggling,
struggling, let's say,struggling positively, they want
to change something, and theythey're coming to you for
coaching to try and get you as acoach to try and help them make
their own decisions. So there'sthe what's the issue, why we got
(14:00):
the issue, but the what and thatsorry, rather the the how, you
really want the coachee to bedoing that themselves. This is
not a show and tell exercise. Ithink with a mentor, you're
working with more experience asa mentor, probably having worked
in the, in the kind oforganization, in the kind of
(14:21):
environment, and you arebringing more and more to the
growth of that individual andthe maturity of that individual
or team. You have, as Imentioned before, you probably
walk quite a few miles in theirshoes, and you might be in that
position of saying, have youthought about it a different
way?
But you're still really tryingto get the coachee or the mentee
(14:44):
to take responsibility for theirown actions. Another critical
thing that is the umbrellaacross all of that is coaching
and mentoring should bepositive. It shouldn't be seen
as a substitute for remedialaction in an organization. If
people come to me and think,I've got a problem. Can we solve
it because this guy, this lady'son their way out?
(15:05):
That's not for me, and it's notfor any other coach guys.
Adam Larson (15:10):
I appreciate that. And and it sounds like people
who are coaches can be mentors,but not every coach can be a
mentor. Not every mentor can bea coach.
Jeremy Earnshaw (15:17):
I think that's a really good description. I'd
really call mentoring, coachingplus.
Adam Larson (15:22):
Okay. Okay. It's like the extra subscription you
get. It is. Yep.
Yeah. So going back to what wewere saying before we kind of
outlined that definition. Whenyou're looking at it from an
organizational perspectivesaying, hey, my team needs
something to help up, like, notevery boss can be a coach or a
mentor, and sometimes you needto bring outside help. How can
(15:42):
an organization look at it andsay, hey. What are signs that my
team needs some coaching ormentoring?
Maybe we can start there. Whatare some signs? And then how do
we demonstrate that this isgonna benefit? And can we
measure that? So that's that'slike 3 questions all in one, but
we can try to go through those.
Jeremy Earnshaw (15:56):
I I think the I think some of the obvious signs,
you you you have thisdysfunctional team or a
dysfunctional individual or adysfunctional team of teams. And
the signs of that, we will allyour listeners will have seen
before whichever discipline thatthey're in. You've got people
who aren't engaged. You've gotpeople who have become let's go
(16:19):
I'll give you a phrase that Iuse sometimes is that when
people in school, they furthertheir education as a first for
knowledge and learning. Yeah.
And then all of a sudden, itstops. So instead of being the
sponge, you become the rock. AndI think the signs of needing
(16:40):
coaching and mentoring arepeople taking this massive step
back and become a rock. They'renot interested in doing things
differently. They're interested,through potentially no fault of
their own, doing the same as youdid before.
So I think the signs of that areyou've got a disconnect between
the objectives of theorganization and the outputs.
(17:00):
One of the most obvious onesthat organizations see, I think,
are the fact that if if they doif they do performance reviews
on a regular basis, you mighthave a series of performance
reviews, which if you did thebell curve, everyone's in that
satisfactory exceedingexpectations line. You then look
at the actual outputs in KPIsagainst the targets, and the
(17:24):
bell curve is below the median,and there's a disconnect there.
So I think that's another way.Everyone thinks we're doing
well, but actually the resultssay that we're not, so there's a
disconnect there.
So I think that's a real obvioussign of needing to do coaching
and mentoring. And remind youremind me what the second part
Adam Larson (17:43):
of the question was, Adam. So now that we've
outlined, you know, how toidentify, hey. My team could use
some help. How does one go aboutsaying, hey, senior leadership
or, hey, board. This is what myteam needs, and this is how I
can justify that cost.
Because, obviously, there's acost involved.
Jeremy Earnshaw (18:02):
There is, and that that's another challenge
that you'll face. I think youraised a good point in your
introduction to this question aswell about it being independent.
Yeah. I I'm a huge fan of it allbeing independent because
there's that conflict ofinterest at whatever level with
your line manager, even if it'sa line manager in another area
(18:24):
or another discipline. There's aconnection there, and it's not
independent, and it might not beconfidential either.
But I think doing that, so to togain the coaching, I think it
has to come from the top. Ithink Yeah. Segments of
coaching, unless it's a segmentof coaching within an overall
(18:46):
framework of an organizationthat really, really wants, let's
call it what I call a coachingfoundation factor, trying to do
it on its own as a discretepiece of work, you're you're a
function of the system that'saround you. If your team isn't
working, it's probably got quitea lot to do with the fact that
the system, the organization isquite dysfunctional as well. How
(19:08):
do we do that?
I think it comes from the top. Ithink it stems from a leadership
team that is committed todistributed distributed
leadership, coaching foundationfactor that cascades down
through the organization. Ithink critical one is that
you're allowed to ask for help.So there's an element of
(19:28):
psychological safety withinthere as well and accepting the
fact that you're not the 10 outof 10. So I think a really
critical thing is being able tosay, expressing a weakness is
not the same as being weak.
And I think it's important tohave that structure whereby also
everybody can be touched bycoaching as well. So it's not
(19:51):
just aimed at the elite. So isit because if you if you're
aiming coaching at the top 15people in the organization, I
think you have to ask, what doesnumber 16 think? What does
number 17 think? So I think atwhatever level, coaching and
mentoring can add value to thebehaviors of people within an
organization as well.
(20:12):
And everybody can demonstratethis is what I found in my
research. Everybody can be aleader if they demonstrate the
values and the behaviors of theorganization, but it stems from
the top Adam.
Adam Larson (20:24):
I like that approach because you like you
said, let's say, I'm gonna I'monly gonna put provide coaching
for the first 15 people. Whatabout that 16 person, 17th
person? They're probably not toofar away from the 15th person.
You know, how do you how do you,you have to make sure it's
equitable and make sure you'regonna help the whole
organization.
Jeremy Earnshaw (20:41):
Absolutely. And your and your your what you're
really wanting to happen is thatyour coachees become the biggest
supporters of further coachingand mentoring. So they become
maybe internal coaches orinternal mentors, and you get
that cascading function down.Otherwise, as you quite rightly
say, Adam, you you end up withdisenfranchised colleague. Yeah.
Adam Larson (21:06):
Well, it sounds like too you have to kinda
overcome certain mindsets.Obviously, if people have
preconceived notions, you haveto break those down. And also
there's a certain level ofhumility accepting, hey. I can
improve. And I I think thatsometimes when we're especially
in the corporate world andespecially in fast paced
environments, you have to havethis, like, I'm gonna do
everything and nothing can stopme kind of feel, and that can
(21:28):
sometimes be to your detriment.
Jeremy Earnshaw (21:31):
I absolutely agree. We're in violent
agreement, I think, as they sayover here in the UK. You're
absolutely right. At some point,even a high performing
individual will reach the limitof what they can do. Yeah.
And in getting there, they mayhave created and finance people
in particular, such as me, willwill recognize this. That single
point of failure is somethingthat you do not want to have in
(21:54):
any kind of finance structure.And it can happen in any
discipline as well. So thechallenge is making sure that
that team is seen to be criticalin the output. And we don't have
the situation where we're sofocused upon just individual
targets because ultimately, it'sbad for the organization.
(22:17):
So, yeah, the challenge youmentioned cost as well before.
That there needs to be thatreturn. There needs to be that
investment and delivery. And andyou need to be able to
understand how we're going tomeasure it as well.
Adam Larson (22:28):
Yeah. So let's let's just dig into that. How
how can one measure the returnof this coaching programs that
they would implement in anorganization?
Jeremy Earnshaw (22:37):
What what I found in researching this whole
area was that there was noconsensus. And the reason I took
took upon the challenge oftrying to understand it a bit
further was because whether itbe have been done by academics
or practitioners, there was noconsensus. And I thought it was
a rich subject to try andunderstand. So I did some
(22:58):
research and I it came down to 2distinct areas. And there won't
be any surprises in this thatthere was no magic bullets in
there really, but it set out andit gave me exactly what I wanted
to do in researching it fromsenior leaders in an
organization.
Area number 1, relativelyinternal. So individual KPIs,
(23:18):
how can you see the increase inperformance from an individual?
Number 2, what are wechallenging ourselves with in
terms of an organizationimproving performance? What are
we hoping to achieve? Number 3,customer service.
And all of those 3 still havethe challenge about is it
exclusively as a result ofcoaching and mentoring? And I
(23:41):
think I have to say, the answeris probably no. But you can
crack and you can you can setyour objectives between the
strategic objectives of theorganization and have a coaching
program so that aimed atdelivering improvements in each
of the those areas. Some of themore clear examples would be net
promoter scores. You would haveimprovement in customer service
(24:04):
metrics, you would haveimprovements in retentions, you
would have less resignationswithin the organization.
So there are the metrics there,but I think it's important again
in any engagement to work out, Ihave a little model called
progress against strategicsuccess measures. Work out what
you're trying to achieve. Theinternal measures. My research
(24:27):
also demonstrated that quite alot of people in the leadership
positions wanted to have animpact beyond the organization
as well, and and some of themcrossed the boundary. So these
leaders wanted a distributedleadership structure.
They wanted to be able todelegate. They wanted to go from
a command and control to aninfluencing leadership model.
(24:51):
They wanted a coachingfoundation factor. They wanted
to create culture that could bemeasured by, for example, you
know, colleague surveys. The thevery extreme was why am I here?
I I am I here to promote genderequality? Am I here to save the
planet? Am I here to, haveequitable homes for everybody?
(25:16):
So this was a real this was alittle bit of a surprise in that
people associated themselveswith coaching and mentoring for
the greater good, gave me 6areas. And working with the
leaders at the start of acoaching program to work out on
a fairly regular basis whetherwe were seeing any improvements
in the metrics that were closestto those areas of improvement
(25:38):
that they wanted to make andsetting it out right at the
start.
And that what that's was a realreal takeaway. Coaching programs
for coaching sake. People comingto you and saying, I've heard
about coaching and mentoring.Let's do it because it sounds
good. I will actually know whatyou really want to do with
everything else.
Set out the goals, set out theobjectives, and be ready for the
(26:02):
challenge from the financepeople in particular that says,
show me the money, show me theresults. It's still a challenge,
but it like everything else, youcan actually set out what you're
trying to achieve.
Adam Larson (26:14):
I think that's a that's a much better approach
because a lot of times you go toleadership programs and you you
throw your team into thatprogram. They read a book. They
do a bunch of things, but youcan never really measure it. And
with anything with anyorganization, you have to set
out goals. You have to set youknow, and make sure they're
measurable.
You know, there's always themake sure they're measurable
smart goals. Make sure they'remeasurable. Make sure you can
(26:35):
attain like, all that. I can'tremember what smart stands for
right now, but, you know, if youif you have all those things in
place, you can easily see ifthis is you know, if your goal
has been attained. And so takingcoaching out of the ethereal,
fluffy, weak, remedial thingthat people think it is and
saying, no.
This is an actual business goalthat we can attain it. It kinda
breaks down all those myths thatpeople have about it. It
(26:57):
absolutely does. And I think theit's fine to
Jeremy Earnshaw (27:00):
have the smart metrics. It's fine to do that.
But what you're really trying todo as well is you you're trying
to mature the level of thinkingin a coaching and mentoring. It
it's not just about the results.You're you're trying to get the
coachees and the menteesthemselves.
You raised the point earlier,which was absolutely right. It
actually starts with selfawareness and the desire to do
(27:25):
something differently in apositive way. So having people
come to you and saying, I wantto be coached, they need to have
looked in the mirror to beginwith, like we all would all have
to do and say we're never thefinished article, and we want to
change positively. And we'd liketo do things better than we did
yesterday. Can you help us dothat?
(27:46):
And a coach and a mentor can dothat. And it might not be just
hitting the metrics because weall know that hitting some
metrics in year 1 might havebeen achieved to the detriment
of year 2 year 3. In finance, weall know that that can happen.
You could have a stellarperformance year. But what about
(28:06):
the costs of that for the longterm value of the organization?
So it starts with the coaching,the mentee accepting element of
self awareness. And as a coachand a mentor as well, that start
that was a big challenge foranybody in studying, coaching,
and mentoring to actuallyrecognize that that's where we
(28:29):
need to start as well to be ableto do this properly.
Adam Larson (28:33):
Well, as with any true thing that helps you grow,
it has to be cyclical. You haveto come back around to it. And
if you're in an organization andyou have those first people
maybe that were part of theprogram, they're gonna be your
proponents to say, hey. Get inthis program because this is the
things that help and you kindayou keep it going within an
organization. Is that is thatthe same with coaching?
It seems like that would be thethat would be the to keep the
(28:54):
wheels turning. Becauseotherwise, you'll do it one time
and then 5 years later, you'relike, didn't we have a coaching
program a few years ago?
Jeremy Earnshaw (29:01):
Yeah. And and I unfortunately do see that with
with individuals as well, isthat they see it as a start and
a finish line, and it's not.Yeah. And there might well be a
shelf life to individual coachesand mentors where you think and
and I I have an arrangement witheverybody as I'm sure lots of
(29:21):
other coaches do as well, whichsays, you know what? After a
period of time, let's review thesituation, and and I have a no
fault engagement.
So if people just say, I thinkI've just reached the end of the
road. I want to try somethingelse. That's great. And my
biggest positives as a coachhave been people I coached 6, 7
(29:42):
years ago who are still incontact with me, who've gone on
to fantastic careers becausethey're spreading the message
with their own people thatcoaching and mentoring can
really work. And what what wasthe real success of those
people?
They did it all themselves.Yeah. They took the decisions.
They are proponents of coachingand mentoring, and they
(30:03):
recognize that they wanted to dothe change in themselves. But as
a discrete element and somebodylike, one of the authors I read
a lot is someone calledProfessor David Putterbuck, and
I've plenty of books around mein my office here.
And he would say, you absolutelyneed to think about the system,
the organization in which peopleoperate because you might be
(30:27):
banging your head against abrick wall if you just focus on
1 team or 1 individually. It'sthe whole team it's the whole
organizational system that mayneed to be influenced as well.
Adam Larson (30:41):
Well and I think that that just shows how, you
know, systematically we have tomake changes. You can't just
change a couple people here andthere and just leave all
policies the same, leaveeverything we've been doing the
same. You actually have toeverybody has to kinda buy into
it. And so it starts with theindividual. So you have to kinda
start at an individual level andthen make sure that it reaches
(31:01):
everyone.
Jeremy Earnshaw (31:02):
Yeah. And and we need to promote the
successes. You you quite rightlysay that it really does start at
the top. It can't be seen to beremedial. And going back to one
of your very first questions,what was one of the triggers to
say, I think we can really,really promote coaching and
mentoring within anyorganization was being it was
attending one of those 2 dayaway sessions where you all go
(31:26):
away to to, in your in yourcase, Gwendolyn of a National
Park.
You do some karaoke in theevening. You spend a little bit
of time together, spend 2 days,then you come back and
everything's gonna be alright.And you've achieved absolutely
nothing. Yep. And so that kindof targeted intervention,
probably it's a very elitistlevel as well at the senior
(31:47):
people, unless it's cascadeddown.
It really just needs to be awaterfall. And it starts with
that leadership style, I think,that promotes self awareness,
positive change, andaccountability and
responsibility for people to doit better tomorrow.
Adam Larson (32:06):
I I think that's great. And, Jeremy, this has
been a wonderful conversation.I'm sure we could keep talking
about coaching. I'm sure youcould talk about it for hours.
But I I really appreciate youcoming on, sharing all your
knowledge, and just yourconnections with, with our
audience, and I encourageeverybody to connect with Jeremy
online.
And, can let's continue theconversations. Thanks so much,
Jeremy. Adam, a pleasure to behere. Thank you very much for
(32:28):
the invitation.
Announcer (32:30):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.ima net.org.
Welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson,
and today we have anenlightening episode for you.
Joining us is season executivecoach and mentor, Jeremy
Earnshaw. Jeremy brings a richbackground as a CFO and now
dedicates his expertise tohelping individuals and
organizations achieve their fullpotential. We'll be discussing
the ongoing nature of coaching,the importance of genuine
(00:41):
organizational change, and howeffective leadership fosters
self awareness andaccountability.
Jeremy will share his journeyfrom training recruits in Europe
to creating his own successfulcoaching practice. We'll explore
the critical role of aligningcoaching with strategic goals
and how it can transform bothindividuals and teams. This
episode is packed with valuableinsights, so let's dive right
in. Well, Jeremy, I just reallyexcited to have you on the
(01:10):
podcast, and thank you so muchfor coming on. And today, we're
gonna be talking a lot aboutcoaching, especially coaching
the the c level group.
And there's a lot of things wecan cover around coaching, but
first, I wanna start. How didyou what was your journey to
becoming a coach, especially acoach for c level folks?
Jeremy Earnshaw (01:26):
Quite a long one. And and thanks for having
me on the on the podcast, Adam.It takes me back to 1991,
actually, when I delivered sometraining, I suppose you would
call it then, to quite a lot ofour new recruits in Europe, and
it was quite an extensiveperiod. We did it for 2 to 3
weeks. Really enjoyed it, parkedit in the memory bank, went off
(01:47):
and did 6 major CFO roles invarious kinds of organizations.
And what really triggered itback was going on one of these c
suite management strategy awaydays around 10 years ago. And it
was one of those events whichjust sticks in your memory as
(02:09):
being not delivering anythingthat we're trying to do. We're
not delivering individualcoaching. We're not making the
team better. And it justprompted me again to think there
is a better way of continuouslearning than some of the
interventions that we've beendoing in the past.
So I said to myself, I'm goingto do this. I'm going to do it
better. I've always enjoyeddoing it on an informal basis,
(02:32):
being a coach and a mentor. AndI took myself back off to
university, went to 2 differentuniversities, gained a master's
degree here in the UK, set up myown practice at the same time,
and became a full time coach anda mentor. Really, really engaged
in developing individuals,developing teams, and actually
developing systems within whichthey operate in organizations as
(02:55):
well.
So quite a long journey, Adam,but triggered by those events
and recognizing that I use aphrase that there's this
perception in in corporateorganization world where there
is a perception of perfectionall the time that people hire
new recruits. You put peopleinto new roles and expect people
(03:16):
to be at that 100 out of 100level, and nobody is. And this
and that and that's what we'retrying to do. We're trying to
get people from 6, 7, 8 out of10 to 10 out of 10 and try to
help them on the way. So that'sit's been quite a long journey,
Adam, but I'm really pleasedthat I've got there in the end
and, really enjoying it.
(03:36):
For sure. Yeah.
Adam Larson (03:36):
I remember one job I started at and, my first day,
they said, read the website. AndI sat there kinda, like,
clicking all the links. And,like, after about an hour, I'm
like, what do you want me to donext? And I I feel like there's
always a big gap a lot of timeswhen you come in or you come
into new roles, you know,especially, like, even somebody
going from, non management tomanagement. They're okay.
Now you have people under you.You're like, what am I supposed
(03:57):
to do now? You raised you raisedexactly the point that isn't
thought about enough. Lots of,
Jeremy Earnshaw (04:03):
I think, individuals and lots of
organizations, they think aboutwhat I call the gains of either
moving role, moving sector,moving organization, and they
think about the great new title,the the fact that they've got
team of people around them, theyhaven't necessarily thought
about all the extra painsinvolved in those roles. So
(04:25):
having to make new relationshipswith your peer group,
potentially, as you said, Adam,having a number of people
working with you as opposed tomaybe just being more of an
individual, having to create newrelationships with maybe
external stakeholders, You mightbe in a in a sector for the
first time. You might be in aboardroom or a c suite room for
(04:47):
the first time. You might haveexternal investors, external
bankers or lenders for the firsttime. And yet we're too busy
sometimes in corporate worldpatting ourselves on the back
and giving ourselves a round ofapplause for bringing in a great
new person.
And they may be great, butthey're they're moving into
another level. That that ladderhas just gone up, And yet I just
(05:10):
think coaching and mentoring canreally help people cement their
place in that particular area.And I don't I'm sure you may
have heard this statistic aswell, Adam. I think it's
something like between 50 70% ofpeople going into C Suite
boardroom roles and not in postafter 18 months for a whole
(05:35):
variety of reasons. There's lotsand lots of stats from Harvard
Business School, from executivesearch reviews and surveys.
It's a real risk. So for me,coaching and mentoring is
derisking that as well as doingall the positives as well.
Adam Larson (05:52):
Yeah. That's huge. You know, when you hear about
coaching and mentoring, somepeople are very open to it,
others aren't. What's some ofthe resistance that you get,
when you're trying to say, hey,this is really important, and
how do you kinda overcome that?
Jeremy Earnshaw (06:07):
You're right. And that's a resistance that I
think we still face. And I thinkwe're to blame to a certain
extent in our industry as well.And I'll I'll give you my
response to the to the industryand then go back to the question
about maybe the individualchallenges that we get. As an
industry, it's relatively new.
So really only from the early90s have we been thinking
(06:30):
coaching and mentoring. And inthe last 30, just 30 odd years,
it's been largely unregulated aswell. So I don't think the
sector, the industry has doneitself any favors by not
regulating itself properly. Andeven now, despite the fact that
there are professionalaccreditation organizations, it
(06:53):
is almost as if if you changeyour LinkedIn banner, you can
become a coach and a mentor.It's not quite as easy as that.
And some of the more sensiblethings to think about are, what
about the code of ethics thatyou sign up to? So I'm a member,
for example, of the EuropeanMentoring and Coaching Council,
and I subscribe to a global codeof ethics. So the more
(07:15):
regulation that we can have froma relatively low base point, the
better. Coming back to some ofthe individual responses, we get
perhaps challenged that it's abit fluffy. It's a nice.
It's a bit one of those thingsyou do in a friendly
organization, in a socialenterprise, and everybody pats
everybody else on the back. AndI think there's that challenge
(07:38):
which is coming from aleadership style, which is more
command and control and show andtell of 30 to 40 years ago when
I started. So I think what isvery much now a influencing and
a distributed leadership model.For the challenge, I think, that
we've got as coaches andmentors, and this is why I did
(07:59):
the work that I didacademically, is to try and at
least have some relationshipbetween the objectives of the
organization and what you'retrying to do for the individual
and the organization and theteam as well. And actually have
a direct link between whatyou're trying to achieve.
And Some of the challenges, andI still have people come to me
(08:21):
as potential clients and say,I'm interested in doing either
some one to group or one to onecoaching. And you asked the
question you posed the question,what do you want to achieve? And
it's as if it's not been thoughtabout. And I think that's part
of the challenge as well to asyou would with any other kind of
(08:41):
project, any other intervention,work out what you're trying to
deliver in the first instance.So make sure your program of
coaching and mentoring isabsolutely bespoke what the
organization and the individualand the teams want to achieve.
And I think that can dispel someof that, well, we're not quite
sure what it is. Therefore,we're not quite sure what we
(09:04):
want out of it. I think that'sthe challenge to get across. And
and if you do it properly, andif you listen to the client, it
can be done really, really welland have really tangible
results.
Adam Larson (09:15):
I can really see that resistance that you were
describing because I'm sure whensome when some people hear
coaching or mentoring, theythink I have to go, like, a Tony
Robbins conference, and I haveto listen to him yelling at me
for an hour, and I'm gonna feelreally inspired, and I'm gonna
do great things. But I I whatyou're describing is something
more specific, something moretargeted, and something that's
really that really kinda getsthe heart of what somebody's
(09:36):
dealing with, like, in and andtaking it at a at an
organizational level as opposedto individuals going and doing
it on their own and findingrandom people. But as an
organization, putting it towardsyour goals to really raise up
the people who you're who you'rewith. And to me, that sounds
like a much better model thanwhat we, a lot of times, think
about when we think about thosecorporate coaches.
Jeremy Earnshaw (09:56):
Yep. And I think you you're absolutely
right. Some of the albeitvaluable learning and
development interventions areaimed perhaps quite generically.
You and I probably all been oncourses in the past where you
sit in a room maybe with 15 or20 people. You can guarantee
(10:16):
that 5 people are listening.
You can guarantee that 5 peopletalk more than anybody else. And
then there's the the group of 10in the middle who are not quite
sure whether they're gettinganything out of this at all. And
I just think, like like anythingelse, coaching and mentoring
let's take coaching, and there'sa difference as well. Coaching
is usually largely targetedtowards helping an individual or
(10:41):
a team with a specific issue anda real reason for change.
Mentoring is perhaps more aboutthe growth and the maturity of
the individual to enable them togrow into their role, into their
sector, into their organization.
I think it really helps inmentoring if you've if you've
gone a mile in their shoes aswell. So Yeah. My particular
(11:04):
brand of coaching is all aimedat being a combination of
academic and real livedexperience. If I was to turn
around, I've got a lot of scarson my back as many coaches and
mentors will have as well. And Ithink whoever you select as your
coach, having somebody who satround that boardroom table and
seen a dysfunctionalorganization at work, it really,
(11:27):
really helps.
And having that link, like likeyou would have with a with a
traditional KPI, you measureyour KPIs, you work out whether
you're achieving what you wantto achieve because you've got
some reference points. And thenhopefully, you've got some
challenges and actions to seewhether you're going to achieve
(11:48):
your objectives in the future.It's the same with coaching and
mentoring. What are you tryingto achieve? Is it the growth of
a team?
Because we all know that wemight have some fantastically
talented individuals who mightnot be brilliant team players.
So how do you do that? How doyou how do you get that team to
work? And then there's the teamof teams. So you've got your
marketing, your sales team, yourfinance team, your people team.
(12:11):
You've got a team of teams, allagain, trying to get to the same
objective, which is to grow thecompany, achieve some financial
results, achieve, whatever youmight want to be doing with
sustainable development goals,for example. So just working out
and having that bespokeengagement, which determines
what you're trying to achieve,can be so valuable, and coaches
(12:32):
and mentors should be doingthat.
Adam Larson (12:35):
So there's a lot I wanna unpack there, but I think
we you should take a quick stepback real quick. And just can
you define what a coach is andwhat a mentor is, maybe the
difference? Because people mightbe assuming that they're same
thing, and I know they're notthe same thing, but let's maybe
put a definition out there so wecan people can kinda understand
what we've been discussing.Yeah.
Jeremy Earnshaw (12:52):
Well, let's think about what what a really
good coach needs to have. Theythey need they need to be
compassionate. They need tounderstand the individual that
they're coaching. They need tobe curious. They have to have
that curiosity to, as you say,to unpack what's in the backpack
of the individual or the teamthat you're coaching.
(13:13):
What's in there that you need totry and get out without going
round the back and opening upyourself? You you need to get
that individual or team tounpack that backpack themselves,
and you need to be courageous byasking the questions that maybe
haven't been asked before. Whatwhat isn't working? Why is it
not working? And you need to bea good listener, and you need to
(13:35):
be a good questioner aswell-to-be a coach.
Mostly, it's aimed at anindividual or a team struggling,
struggling, let's say,struggling positively, they want
to change something, and theythey're coming to you for
coaching to try and get you as acoach to try and help them make
their own decisions. So there'sthe what's the issue, why we got
(14:00):
the issue, but the what and thatsorry, rather the the how, you
really want the coachee to bedoing that themselves. This is
not a show and tell exercise. Ithink with a mentor, you're
working with more experience asa mentor, probably having worked
in the, in the kind oforganization, in the kind of
(14:21):
environment, and you arebringing more and more to the
growth of that individual andthe maturity of that individual
or team. You have, as Imentioned before, you probably
walk quite a few miles in theirshoes, and you might be in that
position of saying, have youthought about it a different
way?
But you're still really tryingto get the coachee or the mentee
(14:44):
to take responsibility for theirown actions. Another critical
thing that is the umbrellaacross all of that is coaching
and mentoring should bepositive. It shouldn't be seen
as a substitute for remedialaction in an organization. If
people come to me and think,I've got a problem. Can we solve
it because this guy, this lady'son their way out?
(15:05):
That's not for me, and it's notfor any other coach guys.
Adam Larson (15:10):
I appreciate that. And and it sounds like people
who are coaches can be mentors,but not every coach can be a
mentor. Not every mentor can bea coach.
Jeremy Earnshaw (15:17):
I think that's a really good description. I'd
really call mentoring, coachingplus.
Adam Larson (15:22):
Okay. Okay. It's like the extra subscription you
get. It is. Yep.
Yeah. So going back to what wewere saying before we kind of
outlined that definition. Whenyou're looking at it from an
organizational perspectivesaying, hey, my team needs
something to help up, like, notevery boss can be a coach or a
mentor, and sometimes you needto bring outside help. How can
(15:42):
an organization look at it andsay, hey. What are signs that my
team needs some coaching ormentoring?
Maybe we can start there. Whatare some signs? And then how do
we demonstrate that this isgonna benefit? And can we
measure that? So that's that'slike 3 questions all in one, but
we can try to go through those.
Jeremy Earnshaw (15:56):
I I think the I think some of the obvious signs,
you you you have thisdysfunctional team or a
dysfunctional individual or adysfunctional team of teams. And
the signs of that, we will allyour listeners will have seen
before whichever discipline thatthey're in. You've got people
who aren't engaged. You've gotpeople who have become let's go
(16:19):
I'll give you a phrase that Iuse sometimes is that when
people in school, they furthertheir education as a first for
knowledge and learning. Yeah.
And then all of a sudden, itstops. So instead of being the
sponge, you become the rock. AndI think the signs of needing
(16:40):
coaching and mentoring arepeople taking this massive step
back and become a rock. They'renot interested in doing things
differently. They're interested,through potentially no fault of
their own, doing the same as youdid before.
So I think the signs of that areyou've got a disconnect between
the objectives of theorganization and the outputs.
(17:00):
One of the most obvious onesthat organizations see, I think,
are the fact that if if they doif they do performance reviews
on a regular basis, you mighthave a series of performance
reviews, which if you did thebell curve, everyone's in that
satisfactory exceedingexpectations line. You then look
at the actual outputs in KPIsagainst the targets, and the
(17:24):
bell curve is below the median,and there's a disconnect there.
So I think that's another way.Everyone thinks we're doing
well, but actually the resultssay that we're not, so there's a
disconnect there.
So I think that's a real obvioussign of needing to do coaching
and mentoring. And remind youremind me what the second part
Adam Larson (17:43):
of the question was, Adam. So now that we've
outlined, you know, how toidentify, hey. My team could use
some help. How does one go aboutsaying, hey, senior leadership
or, hey, board. This is what myteam needs, and this is how I
can justify that cost.
Because, obviously, there's acost involved.
Jeremy Earnshaw (18:02):
There is, and that that's another challenge
that you'll face. I think youraised a good point in your
introduction to this question aswell about it being independent.
Yeah. I I'm a huge fan of it allbeing independent because
there's that conflict ofinterest at whatever level with
your line manager, even if it'sa line manager in another area
(18:24):
or another discipline. There's aconnection there, and it's not
independent, and it might not beconfidential either.
But I think doing that, so to togain the coaching, I think it
has to come from the top. Ithink Yeah. Segments of
coaching, unless it's a segmentof coaching within an overall
(18:46):
framework of an organizationthat really, really wants, let's
call it what I call a coachingfoundation factor, trying to do
it on its own as a discretepiece of work, you're you're a
function of the system that'saround you. If your team isn't
working, it's probably got quitea lot to do with the fact that
the system, the organization isquite dysfunctional as well. How
(19:08):
do we do that?
I think it comes from the top. Ithink it stems from a leadership
team that is committed todistributed distributed
leadership, coaching foundationfactor that cascades down
through the organization. Ithink critical one is that
you're allowed to ask for help.So there's an element of
(19:28):
psychological safety withinthere as well and accepting the
fact that you're not the 10 outof 10. So I think a really
critical thing is being able tosay, expressing a weakness is
not the same as being weak.
And I think it's important tohave that structure whereby also
everybody can be touched bycoaching as well. So it's not
(19:51):
just aimed at the elite. So isit because if you if you're
aiming coaching at the top 15people in the organization, I
think you have to ask, what doesnumber 16 think? What does
number 17 think? So I think atwhatever level, coaching and
mentoring can add value to thebehaviors of people within an
organization as well.
(20:12):
And everybody can demonstratethis is what I found in my
research. Everybody can be aleader if they demonstrate the
values and the behaviors of theorganization, but it stems from
the top Adam.
Adam Larson (20:24):
I like that approach because you like you
said, let's say, I'm gonna I'monly gonna put provide coaching
for the first 15 people. Whatabout that 16 person, 17th
person? They're probably not toofar away from the 15th person.
You know, how do you how do you,you have to make sure it's
equitable and make sure you'regonna help the whole
organization.
Jeremy Earnshaw (20:41):
Absolutely. And your and your your what you're
really wanting to happen is thatyour coachees become the biggest
supporters of further coachingand mentoring. So they become
maybe internal coaches orinternal mentors, and you get
that cascading function down.Otherwise, as you quite rightly
say, Adam, you you end up withdisenfranchised colleague. Yeah.
Adam Larson (21:06):
Well, it sounds like too you have to kinda
overcome certain mindsets.Obviously, if people have
preconceived notions, you haveto break those down. And also
there's a certain level ofhumility accepting, hey. I can
improve. And I I think thatsometimes when we're especially
in the corporate world andespecially in fast paced
environments, you have to havethis, like, I'm gonna do
everything and nothing can stopme kind of feel, and that can
(21:28):
sometimes be to your detriment.
Jeremy Earnshaw (21:31):
I absolutely agree. We're in violent
agreement, I think, as they sayover here in the UK. You're
absolutely right. At some point,even a high performing
individual will reach the limitof what they can do. Yeah.
And in getting there, they mayhave created and finance people
in particular, such as me, willwill recognize this. That single
point of failure is somethingthat you do not want to have in
(21:54):
any kind of finance structure.And it can happen in any
discipline as well. So thechallenge is making sure that
that team is seen to be criticalin the output. And we don't have
the situation where we're sofocused upon just individual
targets because ultimately, it'sbad for the organization.
(22:17):
So, yeah, the challenge youmentioned cost as well before.
That there needs to be thatreturn. There needs to be that
investment and delivery. And andyou need to be able to
understand how we're going tomeasure it as well.
Adam Larson (22:28):
Yeah. So let's let's just dig into that. How
how can one measure the returnof this coaching programs that
they would implement in anorganization?
Jeremy Earnshaw (22:37):
What what I found in researching this whole
area was that there was noconsensus. And the reason I took
took upon the challenge oftrying to understand it a bit
further was because whether itbe have been done by academics
or practitioners, there was noconsensus. And I thought it was
a rich subject to try andunderstand. So I did some
(22:58):
research and I it came down to 2distinct areas. And there won't
be any surprises in this thatthere was no magic bullets in
there really, but it set out andit gave me exactly what I wanted
to do in researching it fromsenior leaders in an
organization.
Area number 1, relativelyinternal. So individual KPIs,
(23:18):
how can you see the increase inperformance from an individual?
Number 2, what are wechallenging ourselves with in
terms of an organizationimproving performance? What are
we hoping to achieve? Number 3,customer service.
And all of those 3 still havethe challenge about is it
exclusively as a result ofcoaching and mentoring? And I
(23:41):
think I have to say, the answeris probably no. But you can
crack and you can you can setyour objectives between the
strategic objectives of theorganization and have a coaching
program so that aimed atdelivering improvements in each
of the those areas. Some of themore clear examples would be net
promoter scores. You would haveimprovement in customer service
(24:04):
metrics, you would haveimprovements in retentions, you
would have less resignationswithin the organization.
So there are the metrics there,but I think it's important again
in any engagement to work out, Ihave a little model called
progress against strategicsuccess measures. Work out what
you're trying to achieve. Theinternal measures. My research
(24:27):
also demonstrated that quite alot of people in the leadership
positions wanted to have animpact beyond the organization
as well, and and some of themcrossed the boundary. So these
leaders wanted a distributedleadership structure.
They wanted to be able todelegate. They wanted to go from
a command and control to aninfluencing leadership model.
(24:51):
They wanted a coachingfoundation factor. They wanted
to create culture that could bemeasured by, for example, you
know, colleague surveys. The thevery extreme was why am I here?
I I am I here to promote genderequality? Am I here to save the
planet? Am I here to, haveequitable homes for everybody?
(25:16):
So this was a real this was alittle bit of a surprise in that
people associated themselveswith coaching and mentoring for
the greater good, gave me 6areas. And working with the
leaders at the start of acoaching program to work out on
a fairly regular basis whetherwe were seeing any improvements
in the metrics that were closestto those areas of improvement
(25:38):
that they wanted to make andsetting it out right at the
start.
And that what that's was a realreal takeaway. Coaching programs
for coaching sake. People comingto you and saying, I've heard
about coaching and mentoring.Let's do it because it sounds
good. I will actually know whatyou really want to do with
everything else.
Set out the goals, set out theobjectives, and be ready for the
(26:02):
challenge from the financepeople in particular that says,
show me the money, show me theresults. It's still a challenge,
but it like everything else, youcan actually set out what you're
trying to achieve.
Adam Larson (26:14):
I think that's a that's a much better approach
because a lot of times you go toleadership programs and you you
throw your team into thatprogram. They read a book. They
do a bunch of things, but youcan never really measure it. And
with anything with anyorganization, you have to set
out goals. You have to set youknow, and make sure they're
measurable.
You know, there's always themake sure they're measurable
smart goals. Make sure they'remeasurable. Make sure you can
(26:35):
attain like, all that. I can'tremember what smart stands for
right now, but, you know, if youif you have all those things in
place, you can easily see ifthis is you know, if your goal
has been attained. And so takingcoaching out of the ethereal,
fluffy, weak, remedial thingthat people think it is and
saying, no.
This is an actual business goalthat we can attain it. It kinda
breaks down all those myths thatpeople have about it. It
(26:57):
absolutely does. And I think theit's fine to
Jeremy Earnshaw (27:00):
have the smart metrics. It's fine to do that.
But what you're really trying todo as well is you you're trying
to mature the level of thinkingin a coaching and mentoring. It
it's not just about the results.You're you're trying to get the
coachees and the menteesthemselves.
You raised the point earlier,which was absolutely right. It
actually starts with selfawareness and the desire to do
(27:25):
something differently in apositive way. So having people
come to you and saying, I wantto be coached, they need to have
looked in the mirror to beginwith, like we all would all have
to do and say we're never thefinished article, and we want to
change positively. And we'd liketo do things better than we did
yesterday. Can you help us dothat?
(27:46):
And a coach and a mentor can dothat. And it might not be just
hitting the metrics because weall know that hitting some
metrics in year 1 might havebeen achieved to the detriment
of year 2 year 3. In finance, weall know that that can happen.
You could have a stellarperformance year. But what about
(28:06):
the costs of that for the longterm value of the organization?
So it starts with the coaching,the mentee accepting element of
self awareness. And as a coachand a mentor as well, that start
that was a big challenge foranybody in studying, coaching,
and mentoring to actuallyrecognize that that's where we
(28:29):
need to start as well to be ableto do this properly.
Adam Larson (28:33):
Well, as with any true thing that helps you grow,
it has to be cyclical. You haveto come back around to it. And
if you're in an organization andyou have those first people
maybe that were part of theprogram, they're gonna be your
proponents to say, hey. Get inthis program because this is the
things that help and you kindayou keep it going within an
organization. Is that is thatthe same with coaching?
It seems like that would be thethat would be the to keep the
(28:54):
wheels turning. Becauseotherwise, you'll do it one time
and then 5 years later, you'relike, didn't we have a coaching
program a few years ago?
Jeremy Earnshaw (29:01):
Yeah. And and I unfortunately do see that with
with individuals as well, isthat they see it as a start and
a finish line, and it's not.Yeah. And there might well be a
shelf life to individual coachesand mentors where you think and
and I I have an arrangement witheverybody as I'm sure lots of
(29:21):
other coaches do as well, whichsays, you know what? After a
period of time, let's review thesituation, and and I have a no
fault engagement.
So if people just say, I thinkI've just reached the end of the
road. I want to try somethingelse. That's great. And my
biggest positives as a coachhave been people I coached 6, 7
(29:42):
years ago who are still incontact with me, who've gone on
to fantastic careers becausethey're spreading the message
with their own people thatcoaching and mentoring can
really work. And what what wasthe real success of those
people?
They did it all themselves.Yeah. They took the decisions.
They are proponents of coachingand mentoring, and they
(30:03):
recognize that they wanted to dothe change in themselves. But as
a discrete element and somebodylike, one of the authors I read
a lot is someone calledProfessor David Putterbuck, and
I've plenty of books around mein my office here.
And he would say, you absolutelyneed to think about the system,
the organization in which peopleoperate because you might be
(30:27):
banging your head against abrick wall if you just focus on
1 team or 1 individually. It'sthe whole team it's the whole
organizational system that mayneed to be influenced as well.
Adam Larson (30:41):
Well and I think that that just shows how, you
know, systematically we have tomake changes. You can't just
change a couple people here andthere and just leave all
policies the same, leaveeverything we've been doing the
same. You actually have toeverybody has to kinda buy into
it. And so it starts with theindividual. So you have to kinda
start at an individual level andthen make sure that it reaches
(31:01):
everyone.
Jeremy Earnshaw (31:02):
Yeah. And and we need to promote the
successes. You you quite rightlysay that it really does start at
the top. It can't be seen to beremedial. And going back to one
of your very first questions,what was one of the triggers to
say, I think we can really,really promote coaching and
mentoring within anyorganization was being it was
attending one of those 2 dayaway sessions where you all go
(31:26):
away to to, in your in yourcase, Gwendolyn of a National
Park.
You do some karaoke in theevening. You spend a little bit
of time together, spend 2 days,then you come back and
everything's gonna be alright.And you've achieved absolutely
nothing. Yep. And so that kindof targeted intervention,
probably it's a very elitistlevel as well at the senior
(31:47):
people, unless it's cascadeddown.
It really just needs to be awaterfall. And it starts with
that leadership style, I think,that promotes self awareness,
positive change, andaccountability and
responsibility for people to doit better tomorrow.
Adam Larson (32:06):
I I think that's great. And, Jeremy, this has
been a wonderful conversation.I'm sure we could keep talking
about coaching. I'm sure youcould talk about it for hours.
But I I really appreciate youcoming on, sharing all your
knowledge, and just yourconnections with, with our
audience, and I encourageeverybody to connect with Jeremy
online.
And, can let's continue theconversations. Thanks so much,
Jeremy. Adam, a pleasure to behere. Thank you very much for
(32:28):
the invitation.
Announcer (32:30):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.ima net.org.
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