January 6, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode of Count Me In, join host Adam Larson as he chats with Stacey Chazin, Founder and Principal Coach at I-Factor Leadership. Stacey, a passionate advocate for introverts in the workplace, shares eye-opening insights on why introverts excel in presenting, debunking common myths about their roles in meetings, and how the post-COVID shift is impacting them. Get practical tips from Stacey's "meeting playbook for introverts" and discover strategies to manage energy in office environments designed for extroverts. Whether you're an introvert looking to thrive or a leader aiming to understand your diverse team better, Stacey's advice on leveraging introverted strengths in leadership roles is a must-listen. Plus, hear about her online course aimed at preventing burnout and the importance of setting boundaries and communicating work style needs. Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation!
Follow the below links to find important information about today's topic:
- A Conference Survival Guide for Introverts
- Meeting Playbook for Introverts: 10 Strategies to Have Your Voice Heard and Your Ideas Shine
- Daily Productivity Hacks for Introverts: Achieve More with Less Stress
- The Introvert’s Edge: 10 Tips for Winning Negotiations
Sponsor:
Today's episode is brought to you by U.S. Bank. U.S. Bank is a trusted financial partner for our clients, businesses and communities. We believe in doing the right thing and putting people first. It’s an honor to be recognized as one of the World’s Most Ethical Companies® by the Ethisphere Institute for the tenth consecutive year. From commercial credit cards and program management tools to innovative payment technologies and transportation offerings, U.S. Bank Corporate Payment Systems has the right solution to help your organization reduce payment costs, enhance control and streamline your entire payment processing function. We’ll partner with you to uncover your challenges and provide smart, clear and honest guidance to help you meet the financial goals for your business. Visit usbank.com/corporatepayments to learn more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adam Larson (00:21):
Welcome back to another episode of Count Me In.
I'm your host, Adam Larson. Andtoday, we're excited to welcome
Stacy Chazin, the founder andprincipal coach at I-factor
Leadership. Stacey is a championfor introverted professionals,
especially those in the financeand accounting sectors. In this
episode, Stacey dismantlescommon myths about introverts,
showcasing their strengths inpresenting, leadership, and
(00:42):
thriving in the workplace.
We'll dive into her meetingplaybook for introverts, tips
for adapting to post COVID workenvironments, and practical
strategies for managing energyand extroverted design
workplaces. Additionally, Stacyshares how the Myers Briggs type
indicator helped her embrace herintroversion and the critical
role of self awareness andcareer success. Whether an
(01:03):
introvert looking to thrive or aleader seeking to build an
inclusive workplace, thisepisode is a must listen. Join
us as we uncover how to turnintroversion into a powerful
strength. Let's get started.
Well, Stacy, thanks so much forcoming on Count Me In. And
today, we're gonna be talkingabout introverts because you're
(01:25):
really passionate about helpingintroverts unlock their
strengths and especially inleadership positions because
introverts can be leaders too.So what what what inspired you
to focus on this this kind oftopic, this niche topic,
particularly within the financeand accounting world? How can
how can we help introverts?Because a lot of finance and
accountants are focused on thenumbers, focused on things, and
(01:46):
not necessarily extroverts.
Stacey Chazin (01:48):
Yep. Great question. So it might not
surprise you. One of the thecore reasons I decided to to
focus on this space is because Iam an introvert, and I had a
number of experiences in my lifethat made me realize that I had
made my introversion a limitingbelief for myself. Messages,
really when I really thoughtabout it, I realized messages
that I probably heard since Iwas in preschool.
(02:10):
And messages that you need toplay with more kids. You need to
sit stay in circle time thewhole time. You need to, it's
better to be playing with withall the kids on the playground
rather than off on your own orhaving more friends rather than
fewer friends. And we hearmessages like this as we're
growing up. Right?
That it's better to be going outon Saturday nights when you're
in high school more than sittinghome with a good book or
watching a movie or to have a abigger circle of friends rather
(02:32):
than a few close friends. Andthe messages continue as we go
into professional spheres. Wehear that whether explicitly or
implicitly, that to be a leader,you need to be outgoing. You
need to be social. You need tobe dynamic and willing to sit
down and engage with folks andcollaborate all the time.
And first of all, that's nottrue, and I'll talk about that
(02:53):
in a minute. But second of all,what it does to people like me
who are introverted, it tells usthat we're somehow less than.
That the way we operate, whichis based on the way we're wired,
our preferences, how we howwe're apt to show up as our best
is somehow inferior to the wayother people do it. And I heard
that message through mychildhood in the early and mid
(03:16):
stages of my career, and itreally had a negative impact on
what I thought I was capable ofas a professional and as a
leader. Right?
So it was this limiting beliefthat as an introvert, I couldn't
lead, or I wasn't gonna beinspiring or motivating Mhmm. Or
or be successful in many ways.And I had some experiences I
that started with completing aMyers Briggs type indicator
(03:37):
assessment or MBTI, which, forany of your listeners not
familiar, MBTI, it's the world'smost commonly used personality
assessment, and it uncovers yourpreferences along a few
different dimensions, one ofwhich is how you get energy from
the world. And those of us whotend to be fueled by the outside
world are considered extrovertedor have a preference for
(03:58):
extroversion. And those of uswho are fueled more by being in
small groups or being in our ownthoughts and going deeply into
things are considered to have apreference for introversion.
And going through that process,I'm reading my own MBTI report.
When I read that, I I say it waslike a window to my soul. I
thought, like, this is this ishow I'm wired. This is me. And
(04:19):
it said to me, you have allthese gifts.
You have all these strengths.Stop pretending that, that
they're inferior. Stop trying toact like the extroverts because
when we anytime we try topretend to be something we're
not, we're likely not gonnasucceed. And it really shifted
how I viewed my professionaltrajectory and what I bring to
(04:40):
the table. And once I startedthinking about my introversion
from a place of value ratherthan a place of deficit, it
really it really shifted thingsfor me.
And I got bit by the leadershipbug and decided to go back to
school, get a master's inorganizational development and
leadership, and came out of thatprogram really believing that
(05:02):
leading from a place of selfawareness, including our
introversion, is that's the pathto true success and true
accomplishment and happiness.And I now work with other
introverted professionals tohelp them see how they can get
there to do the same thing.
Adam Larson (05:21):
It's crazy that in the process of of of reflecting
and understanding yourintroversion, you've gone to
help others, which isn't anatural introverted thing to do
in, like, if you look at verytypical introversion, like,
activities.
Stacey Chazin (05:38):
That's a great point. Yeah. It's a great point.
And what I would say is thecaveat to that is one of the
myths about introverts is thatwe don't like people. Right?
Completely false.
Adam Larson (05:48):
Yeah.
Stacey Chazin (05:48):
We don't necessarily like to talk to 20
people at once or to be engagingwith people for several hours on
end. But we do tend to like tohave 1 on 1 conversations and to
go more deeply with individuals.So working as a coach for other
introverts in many ways isaligned with introversion.
Adam Larson (06:07):
Okay. Okay. I like that. So when we when you and I
first spoke, you mentioned anumber that really stuck out to
me. You said that 75% ofaccountants are introverts.
Announcer (06:16):
You know, why do you think introversion is so
prevalent in this field, and howdoes that impact the way
accountants approach their work?Great question. So I think and
this is based on my knowledgeand expertise in introversion,
not an expertise in theaccounting field, but many of
the tasks
Stacey Chazin (06:33):
and and roles that accountants are asked to
play are aligned with thestrengths of being an introvert.
Adam Larson (06:37):
Right.
Stacey Chazin (06:38):
And and I wanna say just as a caveat that I'm
talking in generalization. Sonot every introvert has these
strengths. Introverts tend to onthe whole, they're gonna tend to
have a subset or if not all ofthe traits I'm gonna talk about,
but it it absolutely is gonnavary by person. That being said,
introverts tend to excel inpreparation. We have a very
(07:01):
strong attention to detail.
We like to go deep in subjectmatter expertise in a project,
so not just to skim the surfaceon different topics or work
across to 10 different projectsor type of work, but to focus in
one area. We tend to be verythoughtful.
Adam Larson (07:16):
Yeah.
Stacey Chazin (07:17):
And we like to work alone or in small groups.
Many of these preferences arealigned with typical roles of
finance or accountingprofessionals. And while I I
like to say and I believe thatas an introvert, you can pretty
much do any job in the world,With the exception maybe of you
probably don't wanna be a frontdesk receptionist or working at
a at a, you know, at a as in acashier role, anything where
(07:38):
you're constantly engaging withthe public, that might be a
little too draining forinsurance. But for the most
part, we can do any job.However, we're likely to be
drawn to the types of jobs thatare gonna let us use these
strengths.
Mhmm. Because we're gonna seethat we're gonna be able to do
our jobs better. We're gonnafeel more fulfilled by what
we're doing, and we're gonnahave a bigger opportunity to let
(08:01):
our strengths shine. People aregonna see us for all the the
assets that we bring to thetable.
Adam Larson (08:08):
That makes sense. Now, you know, you mentioned
that you're gonna speak ingeneralizations today. Maybe we
can start by breaking down someof the stereotypes that that
surround introvert. So we cankind of say, hey. Here's the
stereotypes, but these aren'tnecessarily true.
Stacey Chazin (08:25):
Mhmm. Mhmm. I love that question. So first and
foremost, at a high level, themyth that introverts can't be
can't be leaders. There's verymuch an extrovert ideal or an
extrovert stereotype bias in inthe world, including in
workplaces in particular, thatyou need to be extroverted to
lead.
However, introverts have a lotof key strengths that actually
(08:48):
set us up to be very powerfuland effective leaders. For
example, introverts tend to behighly empathetic, highly
emotionally intelligent. We'revery good at forming
relationships with people inways that make them think that
we care, see that we care, notjust think that we care. We also
tend to do very well, and thisis this is a myth related to
that. People think thatintroverts don't like to talk in
(09:09):
front of big groups, that wedon't like to present, when in
fact presenting and talking infront of a big group is very
well aligned with being anintrovert, and I will tell you
why.
Because, typically, when you'rein front of an audience behind a
podium or whatnot, 1, you haveyou have the opportunity to
prepare. No one's just throwingyou up on the stage and saying,
give a presentation on theimpact of this policy in our
(09:30):
field. So you have theopportunity to prepare, to
practice, to go deep in yoursubject matter expertise.
Introverts are also very they'retend to be highly analytic, so
we're very good at pullingtogether the data we need to
build evidence for a point we'remaking or the proposition of our
presentation. We're also we tendto be very good storytellers,
(09:51):
and that's because manyintroverts are voracious
readers.
So we've we've kind of have thatnarrative thing ingrained in us
from all the reading that we'vedone. And lastly, this is my
favorite one. When you're up onthe stage presenting or in front
of a big group, you don't haveto make small talk. Right?
You're you're behind the podium.
No one's coming up to you. Youmight have to answer some
questions afterward, but you'rekind of removed from the rest of
(10:15):
the audience in your safe,little introverted bubble up
there. And so you can talk, youcan put your expertise on full
display, but you don't need tomake that uncomfortable for many
of us, that uncomfortable smalltalk that makes us kinda wanna
run for the door sometimes.
Adam Larson (10:31):
Yeah. Definitely. Because when when you're in a
big group setting or when you'representing like that, you know,
you don't have that. I neverthought about it from that
perspective of Yeah. There is alarge group of people, but you
don't have to interact with allthem.
You're just presenting somethingyou've spent a lot of time
preparing as opposed to, youknow, being put on stage and
say, hey. Talk 5 minutes aboutthis subject. You're like
Stacey Chazin (10:49):
Right. Exactly. So there's that. Another big
myth is, well, let me tell youwhy the myth happens, then I'll
tell you what the myth is. Sooften when we're in meetings and
someone asks us a question orsomeone's looking for a big
idea, it's the extroverts whoare likely gonna speak first
because extroverts do theirprocessing out loud.
They might not have thoughtsomething through thoroughly.
They wanna see how it soundswhen it comes out of their mouth
(11:11):
and see how other people respondto it. While introverts like we
like to take our time.
Adam Larson (11:16):
Mhmm. We like
Stacey Chazin (11:17):
to process to give things some thought. If
it's a question we haven'texpected, we might wanna go look
back at some data to see,alright, before I put my idea
out there, what what are thedata saying about this problem
or about the solution I'mproposing? And what happens is
all too often, people equatequickness of a response with
intelligence
Adam Larson (11:36):
Mhmm.
Stacey Chazin (11:37):
And and thought leadership. So when you see the
people, you say, well, he cameup with the idea right away, or
she, you know, she immediatelyknow what we should do. Now
these I these ideas may or maynot be correct, but they're not
necessarily gonna be better thanthe ideas that an introvert's
gonna have when they come backto you a half hour later or the
next day or maybe have anopportunity to give you their
(11:58):
idea in writing, which is wherewe tend to shine more than than
verbally in in a lot of cases.So that leads to the myth that
we're we're not strategicthinkers or we're not thought
leaders to the extent thatextroverted people are.
Adam Larson (12:13):
When I when I first got into the corporate
environment, I always wonderedwhy I had trouble, speaking in
meetings because I would alwayscome up with great ideas later.
And But? I I had to kind of Ihad to kind of come to terms
with the fact that, hey. I mighthave not have the first idea,
but I had to learn how toprocess things in my own way and
still be able to participate inthose meetings. Maybe I'll maybe
(12:35):
I'll add an idea at the end ofthe meeting as opposed to 2 days
later.
Stacey Chazin (12:39):
And I actually I'll I'll share with you for
the, call notes. If you look, Ihave a link to I created a
meeting playbook for introverts.So ways to have your voice heard
and your idea shine in meetings.And, it's available at
ifactorgift.com. I'll send youthat link Yeah.
To the guide. And it just hassome ways talking about how you
can prepare ahead of time, howyou can show up at the meeting,
(13:00):
and what you can do after themeeting. All different ways that
you can set yourself up to tocreate forums and environments
where you do have thatopportunity to to have your
thought leadership and yourideas heard.
Adam Larson (13:12):
For sure. And we'll put that link in the show notes
for everybody listening becauseI think that'll be really great
to, to connect with that andhave some new ideas for folks as
they're trying to navigate thesewaters.
Stacey Chazin (13:23):
Great. Yeah. I think folks
Announcer (13:24):
will really appreciate that. Thank you. So
one thing that, you know, we weand we're in
Adam Larson (13:29):
having this conversation. I'm sure that the
last 4 or 5 years since, youknow, since, COVID 19 hit the
the world, and we had so many,changes to our work life balance
and people working from homecompletely and then maybe having
to transition back to theoffice. You know, I'm sure it's
been a huge challenge for folks,especially if they got
(13:50):
comfortable working from home,you know, sitting late, relaxing
in their bed, you know,answering emails and taking
calls for from wherever and thensuddenly having to transition
back to that office. You know,what challenges do especially
introverts face when they'reshifting from working from home
back to the office and maybehybrid situations and, you know,
it's it's really kinda joltingas with all the challenges with
(14:12):
everything that's happening.
Stacey Chazin (14:14):
Absolutely right. And and for as tragic as COVID
was, for many introverts, therewas some comfort in not having
to go into an office every dayand to be able to just hunker
down, and do our work with withless engagement. And certainly,
we've gotten used to Zoom, butit certainly requires us to be I
think it's less energy draining.It still is it still drains our
energy, but
Adam Larson (14:33):
it's Yeah.
Stacey Chazin (14:34):
Very different environment. Right? You can turn
your camera off if need be, oryou you can step away in
different ways. But forintroverts, so we we had this
shift back. Right?
I think I don't know what thedata say, but I think the
majority of workplaces still areeither fully remote or hybrid. I
often find that it's theexception when I hear about
companies that require theiremployees to be on-site 5 days a
week these days. So so maybeyou're in a hybrid environment.
(14:57):
And I think to fully answer thisquestion, I need to first say
that most workplaces aredesigned with extroverts in
mind. So when you think aboutopen open layout spaces where
you have cubicles next to eachother, even if they have some
kind of walls or partitions upin between them, you've got
demands to you know, if you goto the ladies' room, if you go
(15:18):
to the kitchen, you're runninginto people.
Most companies that you'll havemeetings that are scheduled back
to back, not necessarily withany recognition that people need
a little time in between torecharge. And and there's a lot
of pressure to network, whetheror to even if it's with people
you've already met, but tocollaborate in person. So being
being in an on-site role can bea lot more training for
(15:42):
introverts. And so what I wouldsay is there are practices that
we've done at home when we'vewhen we've worked virtually that
you can think about applying toyour in person work. So, for
example, you can't turn yourcamera off at work, but try to
if if you can take a 10 minutewalk in between meetings, block
your calendar, see if possiblefor you to to be able to say,
(16:03):
alright.
I'm gonna need 2:30 minutebreaks today where I just need
to not be with people. And tothe extent that you can,
schedule those those breaks. Andwhether that means taking a
walk, if you can go outside,walking the halls of your
company, plugging into a podcastat your desk, whatever that
looks like. Another thing thatyou can do, and this applies to
being at home or site, is to dotask batching. And what that
(16:27):
means is to group similar typesof tasks together over the
course of your day.
So and what that means is a typeof task might be administrative
work. You're completing yourtime sheets. You're preparing
invoices. You're responding toemails that don't require a lot
of thought. Another type of taskmight be something more creative
(16:48):
or strategic, like writing aproposal or, writing a report.
For introverts, the process ofwhen we switch between tasks
that are very different, likeadministrative versus, versus
creative or strategic, it tendsto drain our energy more than it
does extroverts. So if you cangroup all a particular type of
(17:08):
task together particular type oftasks together, so you're not
doing that task type switchingthroughout the day. You're gonna
be more likely to preserve yourenergy.
Adam Larson (17:21):
So what would you say to somebody who wears many
hats on their role? Andespecially for people in
financial leadership who are insmall, medium sized businesses
businesses, they wear many hats,and they have to do a lot of
those roles. You know, how doyou what if you can't, like,
group all your meetingstogether? What if, you know, you
have this one to this one tothis one, and you just you don't
(17:41):
have a choice? Like, how arethere some ways to kind of
manage those, you know, thosethings where where it's outside
of your control?
Stacey Chazin (17:49):
Yeah. So I think well, what I'd first say is if
if as a rule, if more often thannot, you can do it, great. It
doesn't have to be in all thetime this is gonna happen. If
you start to set the expectationtoo with your team members that
this is the time of day I'mdoing these type of tasks Okay.
You know, this is the time ofday I'm doing the others, It's
(18:10):
not gonna be a fail safe.
Right? There are always gonna beor often there are gonna be
times where when you're gonnaneed to to switch in the other
direction, then you need to dothat. But, I think if you're if
you're remote, I think one ofthe things you can do is you can
turn your camera off for for ameeting. I've read a lot of a a
lot of evidence that turningyour camera off reduces that
(18:33):
that stress of connecting withother people and feeling like
you're you're being you're beinglooked at and scrutinized. So
that can help you to toalleviate some of that stress.
If it's a meeting where youdon't have to be taking notes,
could you do the meeting whileyou're taking a walk outside?
That could be a way to just themovement of your body can help
to to instill some calmness andmake it a little less stressful
(18:57):
for you.
Adam Larson (18:58):
Yeah. Or even get one of those desks that you can,
that you have, like, a treadmillunderneath. You can walk while
you're in the meeting.
Stacey Chazin (19:04):
Yep. Yep. Yep. I have one of those. I have one of
those pedals that got a littlebike that goes into my desk.
I probably only used it twice,but I have it. And I I could use
it if I want to. But, yeah,anything that can help to help
to fuel and protect your yourmind and your that mind body
connection and keep you keep youreinvigorated is a wonderful
(19:26):
thing.
Adam Larson (19:27):
Yeah. One thing, you know, our team my team our
team started was, you know, inin Outlook, you can set your
default time instead of at 30minutes or 60 minutes. You can
set it to 25 or 50 minutes. Andso we started scheduling our
meetings. So default, there's a5 minute break after a meeting.
And so if you if you stay ontask and end your meeting on
time, you've given everybody a 5minute break before whatever
(19:48):
their next task is. And I thinkbeing kind to each other in that
way and saying, hey, guys. Let'sbe mindful of each other's time.
This may be a great topic. Andif we're gonna go over, we say,
hey, everybody.
We're about to go over. Doesanybody need to go? And I think
we need to be more cognizant ofhow people are feeling and the
breaks that people need. Becauseif everybody has back to back to
back, you barely have time tobreathe.
Stacey Chazin (20:08):
Yep. Yeah. And and for many extroverts, that's
fine. But I would argue that asa rule, it's not so great.
Right?
You wanna have time to to getyour thoughts together, to get
your head in the space so thatyou're you're able to contribute
to the next call productivelyand in a way that is gonna show
your best thinking, your bestcreativity, height and focus,
etcetera.
Adam Larson (20:28):
Yeah. So let's say an introvert is listening to
this and they're like, well, Imy goal is to be a leader in my
organization and, you know,whatever capacity that is. Are
there some strategies? Because,you know, you've already
mentioned that, you know,typical leadership that
everybody thinks about is gearedtoward an extrovert. Are there
some strategies or some ways torec to effectively present
(20:50):
themselves as a good leadershipcandidate even though that the
the extroverted person might bethe star pupil or whatever?
You know, how can they kindasay, hey. I wanna I wanna stand
out in this moment?
Stacey Chazin (21:01):
Yeah. Excellent question. And I talk about this
in terms of building yourpersonal brand as a leader.
Adam Larson (21:06):
Yeah.
Stacey Chazin (21:07):
When you're introverted. And all the
strategies I teach and then I Iguide my coaching clients with
are all rooted in the notion ofwhat's called your your positive
core. And your positive core,it's an idea from a coaching
framework called appreciativecoaching that I use. And the
idea is instead of focusing onwhat your deficits are, what you
need to fix, you know, I need tobe a better writer. I need to
(21:29):
be, a better team player, youknow, a better whatever, to
focus on what is it that you'rereally good at?
What are your strengths? And howcan you bring those strengths to
the table? And how can you usethose to show not only can you
put not only can how do you putyour strengths to work, but how
can you use your strengths toshowcase your work?
Adam Larson (21:50):
Okay.
Stacey Chazin (21:50):
And so with that in mind, when we're thinking
about how do you build yourpersonal brand as a leader when
you are introverted, we thinkabout things like introverts
tend to be, like we've talkedabout, very thoughtful. They
have deep subject matterexpertise. They tend to be good
writers. So one thing you mightwanna do is look for introvert
friendly ways to showcase yourthought leadership. That could
(22:12):
be curating a blog.
It could be contributing poststo someone else's blog. It could
be writing a memo with strategicrecommendations for some problem
you're solving. We tend to dovery well in 1 on 1 interaction.
So it could be scheduling aquarterly check-in with your
manager where you talk aboutwhat your goals are and being
really clear on what you need todo, what what she needs to see
(22:34):
from you in order for you toprogress and meet those goals.
So tapping into that that one onone, that thoughtful
preparation, that, you know,really good with a pen.
So that's one thing you can do.Another thing is to have
conversations and engagementswith people that are in smaller
groups for 1 on 1. So maybeyou're having you make a goal
(22:55):
that once a month or once every2 weeks, you wanna have lunch or
coffee with a colleague whereyou wanna be able to you set
some goal for the meeting whereyou wanna be able to you wanna
be communicating that you reallyare, a strategic thinker or
you're very good at problemsolving. And it's not like, hey.
You know, John, John, I wannatell you how good I am at
(23:16):
solving problems, but you'retalking about things that you've
done that demonstrate thatprowess.
Adam Larson (23:22):
Mhmm.
Stacey Chazin (23:23):
So that's another thing to do. It's not you know,
you're not gonna be the one at asitting around the conference
table, touting touting youraccomplishments. That's just not
you. The other thing I recommendis keeping, really creating a
portfolio over the course of theyear of different contributions
that you've made, how you've thework that you've done, what what
you've achieved, and even moreimportantly, how what you
(23:45):
achieved contributed to theteam's goals or the
organization's goals. Keep afile in your email.
Create a new a new folderthat's, you know, examples of
how I'm great or a greatfeedback I've received. And
anytime someone sends you anemail that acknowledges a
contribution you've made oracknowledges a strength that you
have, put it in there. Mhmm. Sothat come the end of the year
when you're sitting down atperformance review time or
(24:07):
you're making an ask for apromotion, a raise, flexible
work arrangement, whatever, youhave all this stuff handy, and
you're not trying to throw itall together at the last minute.
And these are ways that you canyou can build your brand, and
you can begin to, over time,really, really guide and form
what people think of when theywhen they hear your name, the
(24:30):
type of leader you are, the typeof contributor and professional
that you are.
Adam Larson (24:34):
Yeah. It's a it's a slow burn. It's not instant
gratification, but it'ssomething that you have to build
over time with when you'rebuilding trust, when you're
building, yourself up and you'relearning about yourself. And
that takes time. It's notsomething that happens
overnight.
So I like that that approachthat you just mentioned.
Stacey Chazin (24:48):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Adam Larson (24:50):
So, you know, there's something that we hear a
lot now, especially with the waythings are changing and how busy
organizations are. Organizationsare tightening the belt and, you
know, reducing staff. You know,burnout is a real thing for
introverts and our traverse.Regardless of how you interact
with folks, it's a real thing.You know, how can professionals
kinda manage their energy,maintain a healthy balance
(25:11):
without compromising the growthof their career?
Because, you know, you can'talways say, I need a I need a a
2 month break. Just give metime. Like, that's not an option
these days.
Stacey Chazin (25:20):
I want that job.
Adam Larson (25:21):
Yeah. I want that job too.
Stacey Chazin (25:22):
Yeah. Burnout is such a real thing. And and I
will tell you, I recentlylaunched I'm gonna be, I believe
this episode's coming out towardthe start of the year. I'm gonna
be opening up, for the secondtime, towards to a course I just
created online called theintrovert's leadership formula.
And one of the modules focusesentirely on burnout prevention
for introverts.
Adam Larson (25:43):
Mhmm.
Stacey Chazin (25:43):
And so I teach how do you recognize the signs
and symptoms of burnout. And oneof the things that I teach, and
I'll expand on a little bithere, is how do you say no as an
introvert? That's a really hardthing. And the introverts who I
my coaching clients, I hear thatso often. They don't know how to
set boundaries
Announcer (26:02):
and then stick to them.
Adam Larson (26:03):
Yeah.
Stacey Chazin (26:04):
And and that's one of the ways anyone can get
burnt out. Right? If you havetoo much on your plate or people
are giving you work that isn'taligned with your skill set or
what you're really what's gonnabe feasible for you to
accomplish, it's a surefire wayto burn you out. And that's
gonna lead to can lead tophysical, emotional,
psychological, you know,symptoms that are just not
(26:26):
healthy for you. So we have ahard time saying no.
Like, we tend to be conflictdiverse. We like we we tend to
want harmony in the workplaceand harmony with others, and we
also tend to not wannadisappoint people. So what
saying no is, you know, it it'sgenerally gonna disappoint
someone, and we like to be seenas someone that others can count
(26:47):
on.
Adam Larson (26:47):
Yeah.
Stacey Chazin (26:49):
So the first thing I would say is if if
someone puts you on the spotwith an ask that's not aligned
with your availability, yourbandwidth, or your skill set,
buy yourself some time. Youknow, say, you know, let me
check with what what else I havegoing on, and let me get back to
you. Or I need to review mycurrent commitments. And then so
I wanna make sure if I'm sayingyes to you, that I can do the
(27:10):
job the way you need it to getdone, you know, with this with
the degree of excellence that Iknow that you and I would both
expect from it. Once you dothat, if you can do that,
there's a technique called, youknow, using the yes and
technique.
So, yes, I'm happy to take iton, and I would need to start it
next month. Or and I would needto have support from some other
(27:30):
staffers to be able to do thisin a way that's gonna meet the
expectations and to do it well.And then the 3rd way to do it is
to offer alternatives. So I'mI'm not able to do it right now,
but I believe that Sarah'savailable, and she actually has
a lot of experience in thisspace. Again, a caveat, you
won't always be able to saythese things depending on the
power dynamic.
(27:51):
You the flexibility you're gonnahave to say no could it it could
not be there at times. But theseare things you should aspire to
and communicate with the otherperson that if you were to say
yes to this, this would be theimpact. Right? That you might
not be able to do it to meet thethe standards of excellence.
Your other work might suffer,and and your I I would
(28:12):
absolutely encourage saying thatthat your well-being in the
workplace is that might sufferbecause you're gonna have too
much on your plate.
So set the boundaries and doyour best to stick to them.
Adam Larson (28:25):
Yeah. That's a that's a tough one. But I I like
that approach that, you know,that, that approach that's
famous in improv. Yes. And but II like that approach for saying,
yes.
I can do it. But or, yes. I cando it, and I can start at this
time. But it it's I it's it'smore than just saying no and
just leaving it at that. I thinkit you have to have that good
(28:45):
communication, that opencommunication to be open and
saying, hey.
This is where I'm at as opposedto just flat out saying no or
flat out saying yes and nottaking into consideration any
aspects of it.
Stacey Chazin (28:55):
Yeah. And and this really just connects to how
crucial it is to communicatewith your manager
Adam Larson (29:00):
and
Stacey Chazin (29:01):
your colleagues about your bandwidth, about your
abilities, and even the factthat you're introverted. You
might not wanna use that word.You you know, that's up to you.
But it's so important to letyour your manager and your
coworkers know how how you cando your best work, what it is
that you need to be successful.And one of the things I suggest
when when a team comes togetherfor the first time, whether it's
(29:23):
an ad hoc project team or a anewly forming team that's gonna
stick around for a long time is,at your first meeting, to go
around the table and haveeveryone share one thing with
the group.
What do you want the rest of thegroup to know about what you
need to be successful on thisteam? Right? And for an
introvert, that could be, I needa mix, a balance of group and
(29:46):
individual work time so thatI'll be able to do my best. Or,
you know, and or I needopportunities to contribute my
ideas in writing because that'swhen you're gonna get the the
most thoughtful, database,innovative ideas from me rather
than on the spot. And everyonewill go around the table.
You'll learn a lot of thingsabout each other. It probably
won't be all introverts. I hopeit wouldn't be all introverts.
(30:07):
It gives you an opportunity toit gives you an opportunity to
share with with your teammembers, what what you need to
be at your best. And when theyhear that from you, there's a
much greater likelihood they'regonna they're gonna give that to
you.
If they don't know, they can'tdo it.
Adam Larson (30:25):
Yeah. Well, and it's also a call to all leaders
out there who are listening tothis to saying, hey, be mindful
of your teams and give that openspace so that people can share,
hey, this doesn't work best forme. Can we try this? And and
working with each other asopposed to just saying everybody
has to do it one way.
Stacey Chazin (30:42):
That's exactly right. Because this conversation
is more than just about what canyou do as an introvert to
thrive, but how can managers getthe most out of their
introverted employees and makesure that not just what can they
get out of them, but how canthey make sure they're the
happiest and they're fulfilledand they're doing their best
work? And so, you know, getgiving your employees, your team
members opportunities tocontribute in different ways, to
(31:03):
work in different ways thatreflect their strengths. Super
important.
Adam Larson (31:09):
Well, Stacy, I hope our listeners have enjoyed this
conversation as much as I have.I've learned a lot, and I really
appreciate you sharing andcoming on and, sharing
everything with our audiencetoday.
Stacey Chazin (31:18):
Thank you. Thank you. It was my pleasure.
Announcer (31:22):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.ima net.org.
Welcome back to another episode of Count Me In.
I'm your host, Adam Larson. Andtoday, we're excited to welcome
Stacy Chazin, the founder andprincipal coach at I-factor
Leadership. Stacey is a championfor introverted professionals,
especially those in the financeand accounting sectors. In this
episode, Stacey dismantlescommon myths about introverts,
showcasing their strengths inpresenting, leadership, and
(00:42):
thriving in the workplace.
We'll dive into her meetingplaybook for introverts, tips
for adapting to post COVID workenvironments, and practical
strategies for managing energyand extroverted design
workplaces. Additionally, Stacyshares how the Myers Briggs type
indicator helped her embrace herintroversion and the critical
role of self awareness andcareer success. Whether an
(01:03):
introvert looking to thrive or aleader seeking to build an
inclusive workplace, thisepisode is a must listen. Join
us as we uncover how to turnintroversion into a powerful
strength. Let's get started.
Well, Stacy, thanks so much forcoming on Count Me In. And
today, we're gonna be talkingabout introverts because you're
(01:25):
really passionate about helpingintroverts unlock their
strengths and especially inleadership positions because
introverts can be leaders too.So what what what inspired you
to focus on this this kind oftopic, this niche topic,
particularly within the financeand accounting world? How can
how can we help introverts?Because a lot of finance and
accountants are focused on thenumbers, focused on things, and
(01:46):
not necessarily extroverts.
Stacey Chazin (01:48):
Yep. Great question. So it might not
surprise you. One of the thecore reasons I decided to to
focus on this space is because Iam an introvert, and I had a
number of experiences in my lifethat made me realize that I had
made my introversion a limitingbelief for myself. Messages,
really when I really thoughtabout it, I realized messages
that I probably heard since Iwas in preschool.
(02:10):
And messages that you need toplay with more kids. You need to
sit stay in circle time thewhole time. You need to, it's
better to be playing with withall the kids on the playground
rather than off on your own orhaving more friends rather than
fewer friends. And we hearmessages like this as we're
growing up. Right?
That it's better to be going outon Saturday nights when you're
in high school more than sittinghome with a good book or
watching a movie or to have a abigger circle of friends rather
(02:32):
than a few close friends. Andthe messages continue as we go
into professional spheres. Wehear that whether explicitly or
implicitly, that to be a leader,you need to be outgoing. You
need to be social. You need tobe dynamic and willing to sit
down and engage with folks andcollaborate all the time.
And first of all, that's nottrue, and I'll talk about that
(02:53):
in a minute. But second of all,what it does to people like me
who are introverted, it tells usthat we're somehow less than.
That the way we operate, whichis based on the way we're wired,
our preferences, how we howwe're apt to show up as our best
is somehow inferior to the wayother people do it. And I heard
that message through mychildhood in the early and mid
(03:16):
stages of my career, and itreally had a negative impact on
what I thought I was capable ofas a professional and as a
leader. Right?
So it was this limiting beliefthat as an introvert, I couldn't
lead, or I wasn't gonna beinspiring or motivating Mhmm. Or
or be successful in many ways.And I had some experiences I
that started with completing aMyers Briggs type indicator
(03:37):
assessment or MBTI, which, forany of your listeners not
familiar, MBTI, it's the world'smost commonly used personality
assessment, and it uncovers yourpreferences along a few
different dimensions, one ofwhich is how you get energy from
the world. And those of us whotend to be fueled by the outside
world are considered extrovertedor have a preference for
(03:58):
extroversion. And those of uswho are fueled more by being in
small groups or being in our ownthoughts and going deeply into
things are considered to have apreference for introversion.
And going through that process,I'm reading my own MBTI report.
When I read that, I I say it waslike a window to my soul. I
thought, like, this is this ishow I'm wired. This is me. And
(04:19):
it said to me, you have allthese gifts.
You have all these strengths.Stop pretending that, that
they're inferior. Stop trying toact like the extroverts because
when we anytime we try topretend to be something we're
not, we're likely not gonnasucceed. And it really shifted
how I viewed my professionaltrajectory and what I bring to
(04:40):
the table. And once I startedthinking about my introversion
from a place of value ratherthan a place of deficit, it
really it really shifted thingsfor me.
And I got bit by the leadershipbug and decided to go back to
school, get a master's inorganizational development and
leadership, and came out of thatprogram really believing that
(05:02):
leading from a place of selfawareness, including our
introversion, is that's the pathto true success and true
accomplishment and happiness.And I now work with other
introverted professionals tohelp them see how they can get
there to do the same thing.
Adam Larson (05:21):
It's crazy that in the process of of of reflecting
and understanding yourintroversion, you've gone to
help others, which isn't anatural introverted thing to do
in, like, if you look at verytypical introversion, like,
activities.
Stacey Chazin (05:38):
That's a great point. Yeah. It's a great point.
And what I would say is thecaveat to that is one of the
myths about introverts is thatwe don't like people. Right?
Completely false.
Adam Larson (05:48):
Yeah.
Stacey Chazin (05:48):
We don't necessarily like to talk to 20
people at once or to be engagingwith people for several hours on
end. But we do tend to like tohave 1 on 1 conversations and to
go more deeply with individuals.So working as a coach for other
introverts in many ways isaligned with introversion.
Adam Larson (06:07):
Okay. Okay. I like that. So when we when you and I
first spoke, you mentioned anumber that really stuck out to
me. You said that 75% ofaccountants are introverts.
Announcer (06:16):
You know, why do you think introversion is so
prevalent in this field, and howdoes that impact the way
accountants approach their work?Great question. So I think and
this is based on my knowledgeand expertise in introversion,
not an expertise in theaccounting field, but many of
the tasks
Stacey Chazin (06:33):
and and roles that accountants are asked to
play are aligned with thestrengths of being an introvert.
Adam Larson (06:37):
Right.
Stacey Chazin (06:38):
And and I wanna say just as a caveat that I'm
talking in generalization. Sonot every introvert has these
strengths. Introverts tend to onthe whole, they're gonna tend to
have a subset or if not all ofthe traits I'm gonna talk about,
but it it absolutely is gonnavary by person. That being said,
introverts tend to excel inpreparation. We have a very
(07:01):
strong attention to detail.
We like to go deep in subjectmatter expertise in a project,
so not just to skim the surfaceon different topics or work
across to 10 different projectsor type of work, but to focus in
one area. We tend to be verythoughtful.
Adam Larson (07:16):
Yeah.
Stacey Chazin (07:17):
And we like to work alone or in small groups.
Many of these preferences arealigned with typical roles of
finance or accountingprofessionals. And while I I
like to say and I believe thatas an introvert, you can pretty
much do any job in the world,With the exception maybe of you
probably don't wanna be a frontdesk receptionist or working at
a at a, you know, at a as in acashier role, anything where
(07:38):
you're constantly engaging withthe public, that might be a
little too draining forinsurance. But for the most
part, we can do any job.However, we're likely to be
drawn to the types of jobs thatare gonna let us use these
strengths.
Mhmm. Because we're gonna seethat we're gonna be able to do
our jobs better. We're gonnafeel more fulfilled by what
we're doing, and we're gonnahave a bigger opportunity to let
(08:01):
our strengths shine. People aregonna see us for all the the
assets that we bring to thetable.
Adam Larson (08:08):
That makes sense. Now, you know, you mentioned
that you're gonna speak ingeneralizations today. Maybe we
can start by breaking down someof the stereotypes that that
surround introvert. So we cankind of say, hey. Here's the
stereotypes, but these aren'tnecessarily true.
Stacey Chazin (08:25):
Mhmm. Mhmm. I love that question. So first and
foremost, at a high level, themyth that introverts can't be
can't be leaders. There's verymuch an extrovert ideal or an
extrovert stereotype bias in inthe world, including in
workplaces in particular, thatyou need to be extroverted to
lead.
However, introverts have a lotof key strengths that actually
(08:48):
set us up to be very powerfuland effective leaders. For
example, introverts tend to behighly empathetic, highly
emotionally intelligent. We'revery good at forming
relationships with people inways that make them think that
we care, see that we care, notjust think that we care. We also
tend to do very well, and thisis this is a myth related to
that. People think thatintroverts don't like to talk in
(09:09):
front of big groups, that wedon't like to present, when in
fact presenting and talking infront of a big group is very
well aligned with being anintrovert, and I will tell you
why.
Because, typically, when you'rein front of an audience behind a
podium or whatnot, 1, you haveyou have the opportunity to
prepare. No one's just throwingyou up on the stage and saying,
give a presentation on theimpact of this policy in our
(09:30):
field. So you have theopportunity to prepare, to
practice, to go deep in yoursubject matter expertise.
Introverts are also very they'retend to be highly analytic, so
we're very good at pullingtogether the data we need to
build evidence for a point we'remaking or the proposition of our
presentation. We're also we tendto be very good storytellers,
(09:51):
and that's because manyintroverts are voracious
readers.
So we've we've kind of have thatnarrative thing ingrained in us
from all the reading that we'vedone. And lastly, this is my
favorite one. When you're up onthe stage presenting or in front
of a big group, you don't haveto make small talk. Right?
You're you're behind the podium.
No one's coming up to you. Youmight have to answer some
questions afterward, but you'rekind of removed from the rest of
(10:15):
the audience in your safe,little introverted bubble up
there. And so you can talk, youcan put your expertise on full
display, but you don't need tomake that uncomfortable for many
of us, that uncomfortable smalltalk that makes us kinda wanna
run for the door sometimes.
Adam Larson (10:31):
Yeah. Definitely. Because when when you're in a
big group setting or when you'representing like that, you know,
you don't have that. I neverthought about it from that
perspective of Yeah. There is alarge group of people, but you
don't have to interact with allthem.
You're just presenting somethingyou've spent a lot of time
preparing as opposed to, youknow, being put on stage and
say, hey. Talk 5 minutes aboutthis subject. You're like
Stacey Chazin (10:49):
Right. Exactly. So there's that. Another big
myth is, well, let me tell youwhy the myth happens, then I'll
tell you what the myth is. Sooften when we're in meetings and
someone asks us a question orsomeone's looking for a big
idea, it's the extroverts whoare likely gonna speak first
because extroverts do theirprocessing out loud.
They might not have thoughtsomething through thoroughly.
They wanna see how it soundswhen it comes out of their mouth
(11:11):
and see how other people respondto it. While introverts like we
like to take our time.
Adam Larson (11:16):
Mhmm. We like
Stacey Chazin (11:17):
to process to give things some thought. If
it's a question we haven'texpected, we might wanna go look
back at some data to see,alright, before I put my idea
out there, what what are thedata saying about this problem
or about the solution I'mproposing? And what happens is
all too often, people equatequickness of a response with
intelligence
Adam Larson (11:36):
Mhmm.
Stacey Chazin (11:37):
And and thought leadership. So when you see the
people, you say, well, he cameup with the idea right away, or
she, you know, she immediatelyknow what we should do. Now
these I these ideas may or maynot be correct, but they're not
necessarily gonna be better thanthe ideas that an introvert's
gonna have when they come backto you a half hour later or the
next day or maybe have anopportunity to give you their
(11:58):
idea in writing, which is wherewe tend to shine more than than
verbally in in a lot of cases.So that leads to the myth that
we're we're not strategicthinkers or we're not thought
leaders to the extent thatextroverted people are.
Adam Larson (12:13):
When I when I first got into the corporate
environment, I always wonderedwhy I had trouble, speaking in
meetings because I would alwayscome up with great ideas later.
And But? I I had to kind of Ihad to kind of come to terms
with the fact that, hey. I mighthave not have the first idea,
but I had to learn how toprocess things in my own way and
still be able to participate inthose meetings. Maybe I'll maybe
(12:35):
I'll add an idea at the end ofthe meeting as opposed to 2 days
later.
Stacey Chazin (12:39):
And I actually I'll I'll share with you for
the, call notes. If you look, Ihave a link to I created a
meeting playbook for introverts.So ways to have your voice heard
and your idea shine in meetings.And, it's available at
ifactorgift.com. I'll send youthat link Yeah.
To the guide. And it just hassome ways talking about how you
can prepare ahead of time, howyou can show up at the meeting,
(13:00):
and what you can do after themeeting. All different ways that
you can set yourself up to tocreate forums and environments
where you do have thatopportunity to to have your
thought leadership and yourideas heard.
Adam Larson (13:12):
For sure. And we'll put that link in the show notes
for everybody listening becauseI think that'll be really great
to, to connect with that andhave some new ideas for folks as
they're trying to navigate thesewaters.
Stacey Chazin (13:23):
Great. Yeah. I think folks
Announcer (13:24):
will really appreciate that. Thank you. So
one thing that, you know, we weand we're in
Adam Larson (13:29):
having this conversation. I'm sure that the
last 4 or 5 years since, youknow, since, COVID 19 hit the
the world, and we had so many,changes to our work life balance
and people working from homecompletely and then maybe having
to transition back to theoffice. You know, I'm sure it's
been a huge challenge for folks,especially if they got
(13:50):
comfortable working from home,you know, sitting late, relaxing
in their bed, you know,answering emails and taking
calls for from wherever and thensuddenly having to transition
back to that office. You know,what challenges do especially
introverts face when they'reshifting from working from home
back to the office and maybehybrid situations and, you know,
it's it's really kinda joltingas with all the challenges with
(14:12):
everything that's happening.
Stacey Chazin (14:14):
Absolutely right. And and for as tragic as COVID
was, for many introverts, therewas some comfort in not having
to go into an office every dayand to be able to just hunker
down, and do our work with withless engagement. And certainly,
we've gotten used to Zoom, butit certainly requires us to be I
think it's less energy draining.It still is it still drains our
energy, but
Adam Larson (14:33):
it's Yeah.
Stacey Chazin (14:34):
Very different environment. Right? You can turn
your camera off if need be, oryou you can step away in
different ways. But forintroverts, so we we had this
shift back. Right?
I think I don't know what thedata say, but I think the
majority of workplaces still areeither fully remote or hybrid. I
often find that it's theexception when I hear about
companies that require theiremployees to be on-site 5 days a
week these days. So so maybeyou're in a hybrid environment.
(14:57):
And I think to fully answer thisquestion, I need to first say
that most workplaces aredesigned with extroverts in
mind. So when you think aboutopen open layout spaces where
you have cubicles next to eachother, even if they have some
kind of walls or partitions upin between them, you've got
demands to you know, if you goto the ladies' room, if you go
(15:18):
to the kitchen, you're runninginto people.
Most companies that you'll havemeetings that are scheduled back
to back, not necessarily withany recognition that people need
a little time in between torecharge. And and there's a lot
of pressure to network, whetheror to even if it's with people
you've already met, but tocollaborate in person. So being
being in an on-site role can bea lot more training for
(15:42):
introverts. And so what I wouldsay is there are practices that
we've done at home when we'vewhen we've worked virtually that
you can think about applying toyour in person work. So, for
example, you can't turn yourcamera off at work, but try to
if if you can take a 10 minutewalk in between meetings, block
your calendar, see if possiblefor you to to be able to say,
(16:03):
alright.
I'm gonna need 2:30 minutebreaks today where I just need
to not be with people. And tothe extent that you can,
schedule those those breaks. Andwhether that means taking a
walk, if you can go outside,walking the halls of your
company, plugging into a podcastat your desk, whatever that
looks like. Another thing thatyou can do, and this applies to
being at home or site, is to dotask batching. And what that
(16:27):
means is to group similar typesof tasks together over the
course of your day.
So and what that means is a typeof task might be administrative
work. You're completing yourtime sheets. You're preparing
invoices. You're responding toemails that don't require a lot
of thought. Another type of taskmight be something more creative
(16:48):
or strategic, like writing aproposal or, writing a report.
For introverts, the process ofwhen we switch between tasks
that are very different, likeadministrative versus, versus
creative or strategic, it tendsto drain our energy more than it
does extroverts. So if you cangroup all a particular type of
(17:08):
task together particular type oftasks together, so you're not
doing that task type switchingthroughout the day. You're gonna
be more likely to preserve yourenergy.
Adam Larson (17:21):
So what would you say to somebody who wears many
hats on their role? Andespecially for people in
financial leadership who are insmall, medium sized businesses
businesses, they wear many hats,and they have to do a lot of
those roles. You know, how doyou what if you can't, like,
group all your meetingstogether? What if, you know, you
have this one to this one tothis one, and you just you don't
(17:41):
have a choice? Like, how arethere some ways to kind of
manage those, you know, thosethings where where it's outside
of your control?
Stacey Chazin (17:49):
Yeah. So I think well, what I'd first say is if
if as a rule, if more often thannot, you can do it, great. It
doesn't have to be in all thetime this is gonna happen. If
you start to set the expectationtoo with your team members that
this is the time of day I'mdoing these type of tasks Okay.
You know, this is the time ofday I'm doing the others, It's
(18:10):
not gonna be a fail safe.
Right? There are always gonna beor often there are gonna be
times where when you're gonnaneed to to switch in the other
direction, then you need to dothat. But, I think if you're if
you're remote, I think one ofthe things you can do is you can
turn your camera off for for ameeting. I've read a lot of a a
lot of evidence that turningyour camera off reduces that
(18:33):
that stress of connecting withother people and feeling like
you're you're being you're beinglooked at and scrutinized. So
that can help you to toalleviate some of that stress.
If it's a meeting where youdon't have to be taking notes,
could you do the meeting whileyou're taking a walk outside?
That could be a way to just themovement of your body can help
to to instill some calmness andmake it a little less stressful
(18:57):
for you.
Adam Larson (18:58):
Yeah. Or even get one of those desks that you can,
that you have, like, a treadmillunderneath. You can walk while
you're in the meeting.
Stacey Chazin (19:04):
Yep. Yep. Yep. I have one of those. I have one of
those pedals that got a littlebike that goes into my desk.
I probably only used it twice,but I have it. And I I could use
it if I want to. But, yeah,anything that can help to help
to fuel and protect your yourmind and your that mind body
connection and keep you keep youreinvigorated is a wonderful
(19:26):
thing.
Adam Larson (19:27):
Yeah. One thing, you know, our team my team our
team started was, you know, inin Outlook, you can set your
default time instead of at 30minutes or 60 minutes. You can
set it to 25 or 50 minutes. Andso we started scheduling our
meetings. So default, there's a5 minute break after a meeting.
And so if you if you stay ontask and end your meeting on
time, you've given everybody a 5minute break before whatever
(19:48):
their next task is. And I thinkbeing kind to each other in that
way and saying, hey, guys. Let'sbe mindful of each other's time.
This may be a great topic. Andif we're gonna go over, we say,
hey, everybody.
We're about to go over. Doesanybody need to go? And I think
we need to be more cognizant ofhow people are feeling and the
breaks that people need. Becauseif everybody has back to back to
back, you barely have time tobreathe.
Stacey Chazin (20:08):
Yep. Yeah. And and for many extroverts, that's
fine. But I would argue that asa rule, it's not so great.
Right?
You wanna have time to to getyour thoughts together, to get
your head in the space so thatyou're you're able to contribute
to the next call productivelyand in a way that is gonna show
your best thinking, your bestcreativity, height and focus,
etcetera.
Adam Larson (20:28):
Yeah. So let's say an introvert is listening to
this and they're like, well, Imy goal is to be a leader in my
organization and, you know,whatever capacity that is. Are
there some strategies? Because,you know, you've already
mentioned that, you know,typical leadership that
everybody thinks about is gearedtoward an extrovert. Are there
some strategies or some ways torec to effectively present
(20:50):
themselves as a good leadershipcandidate even though that the
the extroverted person might bethe star pupil or whatever?
You know, how can they kindasay, hey. I wanna I wanna stand
out in this moment?
Stacey Chazin (21:01):
Yeah. Excellent question. And I talk about this
in terms of building yourpersonal brand as a leader.
Adam Larson (21:06):
Yeah.
Stacey Chazin (21:07):
When you're introverted. And all the
strategies I teach and then I Iguide my coaching clients with
are all rooted in the notion ofwhat's called your your positive
core. And your positive core,it's an idea from a coaching
framework called appreciativecoaching that I use. And the
idea is instead of focusing onwhat your deficits are, what you
need to fix, you know, I need tobe a better writer. I need to
(21:29):
be, a better team player, youknow, a better whatever, to
focus on what is it that you'rereally good at?
What are your strengths? And howcan you bring those strengths to
the table? And how can you usethose to show not only can you
put not only can how do you putyour strengths to work, but how
can you use your strengths toshowcase your work?
Adam Larson (21:50):
Okay.
Stacey Chazin (21:50):
And so with that in mind, when we're thinking
about how do you build yourpersonal brand as a leader when
you are introverted, we thinkabout things like introverts
tend to be, like we've talkedabout, very thoughtful. They
have deep subject matterexpertise. They tend to be good
writers. So one thing you mightwanna do is look for introvert
friendly ways to showcase yourthought leadership. That could
(22:12):
be curating a blog.
It could be contributing poststo someone else's blog. It could
be writing a memo with strategicrecommendations for some problem
you're solving. We tend to dovery well in 1 on 1 interaction.
So it could be scheduling aquarterly check-in with your
manager where you talk aboutwhat your goals are and being
really clear on what you need todo, what what she needs to see
(22:34):
from you in order for you toprogress and meet those goals.
So tapping into that that one onone, that thoughtful
preparation, that, you know,really good with a pen.
So that's one thing you can do.Another thing is to have
conversations and engagementswith people that are in smaller
groups for 1 on 1. So maybeyou're having you make a goal
(22:55):
that once a month or once every2 weeks, you wanna have lunch or
coffee with a colleague whereyou wanna be able to you set
some goal for the meeting whereyou wanna be able to you wanna
be communicating that you reallyare, a strategic thinker or
you're very good at problemsolving. And it's not like, hey.
You know, John, John, I wannatell you how good I am at
(23:16):
solving problems, but you'retalking about things that you've
done that demonstrate thatprowess.
Adam Larson (23:22):
Mhmm.
Stacey Chazin (23:23):
So that's another thing to do. It's not you know,
you're not gonna be the one at asitting around the conference
table, touting touting youraccomplishments. That's just not
you. The other thing I recommendis keeping, really creating a
portfolio over the course of theyear of different contributions
that you've made, how you've thework that you've done, what what
you've achieved, and even moreimportantly, how what you
(23:45):
achieved contributed to theteam's goals or the
organization's goals. Keep afile in your email.
Create a new a new folderthat's, you know, examples of
how I'm great or a greatfeedback I've received. And
anytime someone sends you anemail that acknowledges a
contribution you've made oracknowledges a strength that you
have, put it in there. Mhmm. Sothat come the end of the year
when you're sitting down atperformance review time or
(24:07):
you're making an ask for apromotion, a raise, flexible
work arrangement, whatever, youhave all this stuff handy, and
you're not trying to throw itall together at the last minute.
And these are ways that you canyou can build your brand, and
you can begin to, over time,really, really guide and form
what people think of when theywhen they hear your name, the
(24:30):
type of leader you are, the typeof contributor and professional
that you are.
Adam Larson (24:34):
Yeah. It's a it's a slow burn. It's not instant
gratification, but it'ssomething that you have to build
over time with when you'rebuilding trust, when you're
building, yourself up and you'relearning about yourself. And
that takes time. It's notsomething that happens
overnight.
So I like that that approachthat you just mentioned.
Stacey Chazin (24:48):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Adam Larson (24:50):
So, you know, there's something that we hear a
lot now, especially with the waythings are changing and how busy
organizations are. Organizationsare tightening the belt and, you
know, reducing staff. You know,burnout is a real thing for
introverts and our traverse.Regardless of how you interact
with folks, it's a real thing.You know, how can professionals
kinda manage their energy,maintain a healthy balance
(25:11):
without compromising the growthof their career?
Because, you know, you can'talways say, I need a I need a a
2 month break. Just give metime. Like, that's not an option
these days.
Stacey Chazin (25:20):
I want that job.
Adam Larson (25:21):
Yeah. I want that job too.
Stacey Chazin (25:22):
Yeah. Burnout is such a real thing. And and I
will tell you, I recentlylaunched I'm gonna be, I believe
this episode's coming out towardthe start of the year. I'm gonna
be opening up, for the secondtime, towards to a course I just
created online called theintrovert's leadership formula.
And one of the modules focusesentirely on burnout prevention
for introverts.
Adam Larson (25:43):
Mhmm.
Stacey Chazin (25:43):
And so I teach how do you recognize the signs
and symptoms of burnout. And oneof the things that I teach, and
I'll expand on a little bithere, is how do you say no as an
introvert? That's a really hardthing. And the introverts who I
my coaching clients, I hear thatso often. They don't know how to
set boundaries
Announcer (26:02):
and then stick to them.
Adam Larson (26:03):
Yeah.
Stacey Chazin (26:04):
And and that's one of the ways anyone can get
burnt out. Right? If you havetoo much on your plate or people
are giving you work that isn'taligned with your skill set or
what you're really what's gonnabe feasible for you to
accomplish, it's a surefire wayto burn you out. And that's
gonna lead to can lead tophysical, emotional,
psychological, you know,symptoms that are just not
(26:26):
healthy for you. So we have ahard time saying no.
Like, we tend to be conflictdiverse. We like we we tend to
want harmony in the workplaceand harmony with others, and we
also tend to not wannadisappoint people. So what
saying no is, you know, it it'sgenerally gonna disappoint
someone, and we like to be seenas someone that others can count
(26:47):
on.
Adam Larson (26:47):
Yeah.
Stacey Chazin (26:49):
So the first thing I would say is if if
someone puts you on the spotwith an ask that's not aligned
with your availability, yourbandwidth, or your skill set,
buy yourself some time. Youknow, say, you know, let me
check with what what else I havegoing on, and let me get back to
you. Or I need to review mycurrent commitments. And then so
I wanna make sure if I'm sayingyes to you, that I can do the
(27:10):
job the way you need it to getdone, you know, with this with
the degree of excellence that Iknow that you and I would both
expect from it. Once you dothat, if you can do that,
there's a technique called, youknow, using the yes and
technique.
So, yes, I'm happy to take iton, and I would need to start it
next month. Or and I would needto have support from some other
(27:30):
staffers to be able to do thisin a way that's gonna meet the
expectations and to do it well.And then the 3rd way to do it is
to offer alternatives. So I'mI'm not able to do it right now,
but I believe that Sarah'savailable, and she actually has
a lot of experience in thisspace. Again, a caveat, you
won't always be able to saythese things depending on the
power dynamic.
(27:51):
You the flexibility you're gonnahave to say no could it it could
not be there at times. But theseare things you should aspire to
and communicate with the otherperson that if you were to say
yes to this, this would be theimpact. Right? That you might
not be able to do it to meet thethe standards of excellence.
Your other work might suffer,and and your I I would
(28:12):
absolutely encourage saying thatthat your well-being in the
workplace is that might sufferbecause you're gonna have too
much on your plate.
So set the boundaries and doyour best to stick to them.
Adam Larson (28:25):
Yeah. That's a that's a tough one. But I I like
that approach that, you know,that, that approach that's
famous in improv. Yes. And but II like that approach for saying,
yes.
I can do it. But or, yes. I cando it, and I can start at this
time. But it it's I it's it'smore than just saying no and
just leaving it at that. I thinkit you have to have that good
(28:45):
communication, that opencommunication to be open and
saying, hey.
This is where I'm at as opposedto just flat out saying no or
flat out saying yes and nottaking into consideration any
aspects of it.
Stacey Chazin (28:55):
Yeah. And and this really just connects to how
crucial it is to communicatewith your manager
Adam Larson (29:00):
and
Stacey Chazin (29:01):
your colleagues about your bandwidth, about your
abilities, and even the factthat you're introverted. You
might not wanna use that word.You you know, that's up to you.
But it's so important to letyour your manager and your
coworkers know how how you cando your best work, what it is
that you need to be successful.And one of the things I suggest
when when a team comes togetherfor the first time, whether it's
(29:23):
an ad hoc project team or a anewly forming team that's gonna
stick around for a long time is,at your first meeting, to go
around the table and haveeveryone share one thing with
the group.
What do you want the rest of thegroup to know about what you
need to be successful on thisteam? Right? And for an
introvert, that could be, I needa mix, a balance of group and
(29:46):
individual work time so thatI'll be able to do my best. Or,
you know, and or I needopportunities to contribute my
ideas in writing because that'swhen you're gonna get the the
most thoughtful, database,innovative ideas from me rather
than on the spot. And everyonewill go around the table.
You'll learn a lot of thingsabout each other. It probably
won't be all introverts. I hopeit wouldn't be all introverts.
(30:07):
It gives you an opportunity toit gives you an opportunity to
share with with your teammembers, what what you need to
be at your best. And when theyhear that from you, there's a
much greater likelihood they'regonna they're gonna give that to
you.
If they don't know, they can'tdo it.
Adam Larson (30:25):
Yeah. Well, and it's also a call to all leaders
out there who are listening tothis to saying, hey, be mindful
of your teams and give that openspace so that people can share,
hey, this doesn't work best forme. Can we try this? And and
working with each other asopposed to just saying everybody
has to do it one way.
Stacey Chazin (30:42):
That's exactly right. Because this conversation
is more than just about what canyou do as an introvert to
thrive, but how can managers getthe most out of their
introverted employees and makesure that not just what can they
get out of them, but how canthey make sure they're the
happiest and they're fulfilledand they're doing their best
work? And so, you know, getgiving your employees, your team
members opportunities tocontribute in different ways, to
(31:03):
work in different ways thatreflect their strengths. Super
important.
Adam Larson (31:09):
Well, Stacy, I hope our listeners have enjoyed this
conversation as much as I have.I've learned a lot, and I really
appreciate you sharing andcoming on and, sharing
everything with our audiencetoday.
Stacey Chazin (31:18):
Thank you. Thank you. It was my pleasure.
Announcer (31:22):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.ima net.org.
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