April 14, 2025 • 36 mins
Join host Adam Larson on today's episode of Count Me In, where he welcomes Kris Russell, the Leadership Coach at Conscious Public Accountants. Kris, a seasoned leader in accounting and finance, shares his expertise on harnessing vulnerability as a strength in leadership. This engaging conversation explores how embracing vulnerability can transform personal well-being, enhance company culture, and even drive profitability. With personal anecdotes and practical advice, Kris emphasizes the courage required to build trust, set boundaries, and live with integrity. Whether you're an established leader or an aspiring one, this episode offers invaluable insights for anyone eager to make a positive impact in their organization. Don't miss out on this opportunity to learn from a true expert in leadership and finance.
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Episode Transcript
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Adam Larson (00:21):
On this episode of Count Me In, we're excited to
have Kris Russell join us. Kris,the leadership coach at
Conscious Public Accountants,previously captivated our
audience in January 2025 duringIMA's Leadership Academy webinar
series on his session Leadershipand Leading from the Heart. His
insights resonated deeply,leading to a flood of questions
from those eager to explore howvulnerability can enhance
(00:43):
leadership. In today'sconversation, Kris discusses
company culture, the interplaybetween vulnerability and
business needs, and offerspractical advice on embracing
courageous and authenticleadership. Whether you're
navigating trust issues in theworkplace or seeking personal
growth as a leader, this episodeis packed with ideas that are
both inspiring and actionable,guiding you toward leading with
heart and wisdom.
(01:09):
Kris, thank you so much forcoming on the Count Me In
podcast today. I'm reallyexcited to have you on. And for
those who don't know, back inJanuary of twenty twenty five,
we had you on our LeadershipAcademy webinar series, and the
title of that webinar was calledLeadership and Leading from the
Heart. And it was very wellreceived by our audience, and we
had so many questions coming infrom the audience that I asked
(01:29):
you, I said, Hey, would you wantto come on to the podcast and
kind of dig a little more intothe topic a little bit more?
Graciously, you said yes.
And so I want to thank you forthat. And I figured we could
start off a little just maybegive people a five, like a
quick, a quick overview of whatwe talked about the webinar. I
want to encourage everybody tocheck the notes of this podcast
because we'll send you a link sothat you can go watch that
(01:51):
webinar and kind of see what itwas all about. But maybe you
could start by just giving aquick overview.
Kris Russell (01:56):
I'd be glad to, Adam. First of all, thank you
for having me, and I reallyappreciate the opportunity to be
here with you. At the end of theday, the presentation on
leadership and vulnerability isan opportunity for me to explore
some of the topics that havebeen so important for me as a
leader in accounting andfinance, and now a coach of
(02:18):
leaders in accounting andfinance. I grew up in a culture
of leadership that was notalways about vulnerability. All
right, I really carried a lot ofthat stoicism, a lot of that
sort of discipline mind.
And some of that's reallyimportant for leadership. And
that's okay too. But I found inmy own experience that as I was
(02:40):
able to embrace vulnerability asa leader, number one, my quality
of life was impactedtremendously. I was a happier,
more engaged person at work. Imade better decisions.
I was better to my team. So notonly was my quality of life
better by, because of learningto embrace vulnerability, but
(03:01):
also my team had a much betterexperience. And therefore, when
my team had a better experience,everybody in the companies where
I had these leadership positionsbenefited from that. These
behaviors, all of our behaviorsreally, whether they're
wonderful behaviors likevulnerability or destructive
behaviors, they havereverberating effects to really
(03:22):
everyone in and around ourorganizations. Everybody that we
touch is eventually touched insome way by our actions.
And the more that we can embraceand cultivate actions that are
authentic and really lift us upand lift up others and help us
to be more open and honest withourselves and others, I think
(03:43):
the better our workplaces canbe. Yeah.
Adam Larson (03:51):
Kris, I really appreciate you giving that
overview and that understanding.And when you were presenting
during the webinar, one of thethings that I noticed from the
audience was a lot of questionsabout company culture. People
are really reflecting onthemselves. They're also
reflecting on how they interactwith their bosses. And so one of
the big things that, you know, Ikind of combine a couple of
questions together, some ofthese like they were asking,
(04:12):
what is your take on companyculture in general?
Because a lot of times thingslike bottom line and returns are
the leader of the conversationand people, they push harder,
push harder because, you know,everybody's focused on that
short term view of making surewe can meet our bottom line,
help our investors or whateveris driving your business. And so
how do you balance this idea ofvulnerability and being a better
(04:33):
leader and also the needs ofyour business? Because
ultimately it's about, you know,keeping your business going.
Kris Russell (04:40):
Of course. Well, there's a lot there to unpack. I
think we can hold space forboth. And in fact, I think that
some of the studies that welooked at when we did in the
presentation that we didtogether demonstrate that
healthier workplaces, healthierorganizational cultures actually
(05:01):
have the opportunity to increaseprofitability. That when people
are engaged and they feel a partof the team and they feel
energized and they feel a strongsense of trust, mutual trust
between employee and employer,that actually has real life
implications for a company'sprofitability.
(05:23):
So I think these things areactually, they actually go hand
in hand. And yes, of course,organizations exist for many
reasons. And one of them is to,is to make money for their
shareholders or for theirsponsors or whatever that looks
like. And I believe that asleaders, we have a
responsibility to leave thoseorganizations better than we
(05:43):
found them. And that so let mejust pause there for a second
and I wanna really reflect onyour reflect on your question.
So you're asking aboutorganizational culture. How does
vulnerability come into playwhen we also have to balance
profitability? Well, like Isaid, number one, I think that
they certainly can go hand inhand. Number two, I think that
(06:03):
rather than if you work in abig, large multinational
corporation, unless you're inthe c suite or on the board,
you're probably ultimately notgoing to influence the entire
company culture, at least notright away. That's okay.
I think instead of trying tochange the entire corporate
culture or the organizationalculture that you're a part of, I
(06:26):
wonder what it would be like tostart just taking responsibility
for what is within your locus ofcontrol or what is within your
sphere of influence. If you workfor a blue chip Fortune 100
company, no, you're probably notgoing to influence the entire
culture. Certainly not rightaway. But can you make small
(06:48):
changes in the way that youinteract with your team, in a
way that you interact with yourvendors, your suppliers, any of
the people that yourorganization touches. Imagine
just what a small, what somesmall effort there could do and
having a ripple effect on yourquality of life and the people
that you engage with, even if itfeels very small at first.
(07:12):
If we think about just a one ortwo degree shift over time, that
adds up tremendously. I'm goingpause there for a second. How
does that resonate with you?
Adam Larson (07:26):
I really like that view because a lot of times when
we think about our organizationsthat we work for, it can get
really stressful when we thinkabout, oh, this person is doing
this, this person is doing that.And then I look at this senior
person and they do that. Youknow, what I can I do? And
shifting from being annoyed bythings that are happening. It's
(07:49):
looking at the things we likelike a lot of times that that
we're faced with.
Hey, what things can you affectright now? What are things that
you're in control of? And you'rein control of the people you
interact with, the people youcome into contact with, and you
create your own small bubble of,hey, these are the things that
I'm doing and I'm impacting asopposed to getting so lost in
(08:11):
frustrations. Because no matterwhere you work, you're going to
have frustrations. There's goingto be things that annoy you, but
you can't get lost there or elseyou'll probably end up being a
very bitter person.
Kris Russell (08:25):
Absolutely. By no means does this mean that we
should be walked on or trulymistreated or dealing with
relationships at work that areabusive or really just against
the core of our integrity.That's not what that means to me
at all. But what it does mean isthat to be vulnerable leaders,
(08:48):
have to take responsibility forwhere we have influence. Where
do we have influence?
And part of that, and this is alittle uncomfortable, part of
that is really rooting outvictimhood and avoidant
behaviors that we engage in,because we all do it. We all die
(09:09):
certainly have. We all do it. Sorooting out those victimhood,
those avoidant behaviors, andwhere am I? How am I
contributing to an environmentor a workplace culture that may
not be the one that I reallywant to see?
And really, just like with anybig change, it really starts
with us. We've all heard thatadage, if you point the finger,
(09:31):
there's three fingers pointingback at you, right? So we've
really got to look at what aremy behaviors, what are my
reactions, my responses to theculture around me, And how can I
first be in integrity withmyself and in being in integrity
with myself, how can I then makesure that I'm being in integrity
and compassion with the peoplethat are around me? How does
(09:52):
that resonate with you, Adam?
Adam Larson (09:55):
So once you've once you've kind of taken those once
you've kind of taken those stepsthat you you just mentioned,
like, hey, I'm looking atmyself, I'm looking internally.
How do you take that to the nextlevel of making sure that you
don't get walked on? Becausesometimes you don't understand
that that's happening. You don'tknow how to face that head on,
especially in a toxic workenvironment.
Kris Russell (10:14):
Yeah. When we talk about in the original
presentation, when we definewhat vulnerability is not And
one of the big things that it isnot is being walked on. It's not
being a pushover. It's notbeing, it's not about being,
keeping your thoughts andfeelings to yourself. In fact,
it's quite the opposite.
It's really being firmlygrounded in what we believe in
(10:39):
our integrity. You'll hear meuse that word a lot in our
personal values, our corevalues, really understanding
what those are and being awarewhen those values or that
integrity is not, is eitherbeing, is being mistreated or is
being that what we're doing orthe culture that we're part of
is somehow not in alignment. Oreven more often is the case when
(11:01):
our own actions are not inalignment with our personal
values, our integrity. So Iwould say that it just comes
back to continuing to numberone, know and understand
ourselves. What are our values?
How do we know what's importantto us? What are the things that
we're willing to give on? Whatare the things that we're not
willing to compromise on becauseit's just too important,
especially if it's a matter ofpersonal integrity. And so, it's
(11:25):
actually really healthy for usto do things that we talked
about during the presentation,for example, setting boundaries.
If we aren't setting boundaries,we can't expect other people to
follow them.
Right? It's actually up to theperson who sets the boundary to
make sure that other peoplefollow that boundary and respect
the boundary. So there's a lothere. Again, for me, this
(11:47):
continues to look inward incultivating the person that I
want to be, not just as aleader, but as a human being.
How does that person show up?
Where am I maybe even walking onmyself? You know, at the end of
the day, we're, there's not justone of us, there's parts of us.
We have multiple parts. There'sthe part of us that wants this,
and there's the part of us thatwants that, and there's the part
of us that that yearns for this,and the part of us that needs
(12:09):
that. So what parts of us are wemaybe walking all over and not
ignoring and respecting?
Again, I think it just alwayscomes back to starting with us
and that that that look inwardinto into the deeper self and
really working on ourselvesfirst and foremost. Because only
when we can stand in our ownintegrity and know what we need
and what our boundaries are canwe set a boundary and not be
(12:33):
walked on by somebody else.
Adam Larson (12:36):
It makes me think, you know, when you have your own
boundaries and somebody hastheir boundaries, how do you
kind of mesh together when yourboundaries are different?
Kris Russell (12:46):
Yeah, what a great question. And of course, this is
inevitable, right? Differentpeople have different needs and
different desires. And that's, Ithink, to be celebrated and
embraced. Maybe the one of thekey ways to make peace with this
is to name it.
I talk a lot with my clientsabout just naming the pink
(13:07):
elephant in the room. Adam, ifyou and I had very different
expectations about how we weregoing to run this podcast today,
if we pretended that thosedidn't exist, we would not be
able to have a successfulexperience today. And we would
need to come together and beopen and honest about what we're
experiencing. That doesn't meanthat we need to be nasty or
(13:29):
vindictive or anything, but itcan mean, hey, this is the truth
I'm experiencing right now, AndI sense that your truth is
different and we need to meethere in the middle. Where can we
find some common ground here?
And work to compromise and notignore the fact that we might
have some differences in ourboundaries. Cause I would
imagine that in almost everycase, if we're able to do that,
(13:53):
we're able to come together inopenness and honesty about what
those different boundaries canbe, we actually have a lot to
learn from each other, and a lotto grow through in going through
that experience together. Andwhen you and I can have that
conversation and be open, evenif there is a power difference,
even if there is a powerdifference, can almost guarantee
that we're gonna come on theother side of that in a stronger
(14:17):
way, even if there is somehealthy conflict along the way.
Adam Larson (14:20):
Yeah. So, there's the term you used during the
webinar called invulnerable. AndI know everybody's heard the
word vulnerable, so maybe we canjust do a quick definition of
what is invulnerable versus whatis vulnerable, just so our
audience can understand and wecan kind of continue the
conversation, really.
Kris Russell (14:38):
When in the context of vulnerability and
leadership, when I think ofinvulnerability, I'm really
speaking about behaviors thatkeep us closed off, where we're
not communicating our needs,where we are doing things that
(15:01):
lead us to feel small orunengaged or disrespected,
walked on as we just spoke of,or when we are not letting our
light shine. You know, we allhave these really tremendous
gifts that we either were bornwith or we develop over time,
but if we're not letting thatlight shine in our workplace, I
(15:24):
think that's a lack ofvulnerability or being
invulnerable. I think reallyanything that we do, we talked
about in the presentation, howdo I know when I'm doing things
that don't align with my trueself, with my higher self? And
the way we know that is, what amI doing that's with a full
heart? And what am I doing thatmaybe causes me regret, or makes
(15:45):
me feel small, or makes me feelfame, or resentment?
Those are really big red flagsto help us just be aware of
behaviors that we all do, we alldo, that are really that
opposite, that antithesis ofbeing a vulnerable leader. I'm
(16:07):
gonna pause for a second. I'mhappy to talk more about it, but
does that that make sense?
Adam Larson (16:12):
I think it does. I think we have to get it's one of
the vulnerability or vulnerableis one of those words you have
to kind of get the the big oldelephant out of the room. People
see that word and they think,oh, it's just somebody who can't
stand up to anybody. It's it'sthis or it's that. There's a lot
of assumptions made about thatword.
And I think if we can get overthat, we could actually be more
(16:33):
vulnerable and be more strongerleaders.
Kris Russell (16:37):
I think so, too. I'd like to give you a synonym
for vulnerability that maybethose people that are just
really skeptical about what areuncomfortable with it, that a
synonym that really works for meis also courage. Doctor. Brene
Brown, who is really the queenof vulnerability, she's written
many books on the subject, talksabout courage and the importance
(16:59):
of courage and cultivatingvulnerability and how we have to
be courageous in order to trulyexpress ourselves, to truly see
others. And for me,vulnerability is really
embracing the courage factor.
I had one of my coaching peersnot too long ago tell me that,
she said, Kris, courage is fearplus action. Fear plus action.
(17:26):
And that really struck me. Thatmeans that I can't be in a space
of courage without having fearpresent. It's simply not
possible because by definition,courage requires us to be
overcoming fear, to be workingwith fear.
And so that fear of showingourselves, fear of being seen,
(17:47):
fear of having other people knowwhat we're experiencing, or
maybe even this fear of seeingand having compassion for
others, all of that is real, andit's okay, and we can still work
to have courageous, to attackthat courageously, to work with
(18:08):
it, instead of making it theenemy, just to be there with it
and be present. So, I thinkthat's actually, we don't have
to use the word vulnerability.We can use it, pick another
term, but what it does,vulnerability for me in this
context is not about weakness inany way. We mentioned a quote
during the presentation, I'llsee if I can get it right, by
philosopher Criss Jami. He saysthat, To be vulnerable is to
(18:33):
share your weakness and to shareyour weakness is to show your
strength.
These things go hand in hand.
Adam Larson (18:42):
So you mentioned knowing your authentic self and
something doesn't align to yourauthentic self. And one of the
things I think I asked yousomething similar to this during
the live event because, youknow, how do you know what your
authentic self is? And then howdo you know that it's good?
Because the person was askingabout what if my authentic self
is selfish or something that isnot quote unquote good? How do I
balance that?
(19:02):
How I what do I find that? And Ithink that it's an interesting
conversation to have becausewhat if your authentic self is
wants to do something terribleto people? You're like, wait,
what do I do with that? It's alittle extreme, but you know.
Kris Russell (19:13):
Of course. I would go back to this idea that there
are parts of us, any of ourlisteners, any of the audience
that may have undergone therapyusing a model called internal
family systems is a very popularpsychiatric psychological model
today that really helps us seethat there are different parts
of us. We're not just this onething, right? So there are parts
(19:37):
of us that are fearful. Thereare parts of us that are
courageous.
There's parts of us that arevindictive and nasty, and
there's parts of us that reallyare display a beautiful role
model of the human spirit. Thoseare all present within us, and
we don't the goal of our ownwork is not to ignore those
parts or shame them. It's reallyto bring them together and
(20:00):
understand those hurtful partsor those parts of us that might
be construed as negative. Whatdo we need to do to heal those?
What traumas are in our past, orwhat brought it on?
What is this behavior about thathas felt so protective? Alright.
So, Adam, we were talking aboutthese different parts of us that
exist in response to an audiencemember's question about these
(20:23):
different parts of us. And weacknowledge that there's parts
of us that are really beautiful.And there's parts of us that are
compassionate.
And there's parts of us thatare, that are not always so
compassionate or that arejudgmental and negative. But I
think our true self is reallyeven deeper than that. Whether
you look at it from a spiritualpoint of view, all the major
(20:45):
spiritual traditions of theworld really point to the same
thing that there's a deeper selfthat's really this really
beautiful, beautiful aspect oflove and compassion that's
present in all of us. And evenif you're not coming from a
spiritual point of view, justhumanly, have the ability to be
extraordinarily compassionate,kind, helpful, generous,
(21:08):
generous beings. And I believethat those parts of us really
come from our deeper, truenature, the true self.
Yeah.
Adam Larson (21:17):
They really do. And I appreciate you bringing up the
whole there's different aspectsto every person because growing
up, a lot of times, people thatI know that I've talked to, a
lot of us kind of felt like wehad to put ourselves in inside
one small box.
Kris Russell (21:30):
Of course.
Adam Larson (21:31):
And being able to break out of that box and
recognize that you can do manydifferent things, that you're
not just limited one thing. WithBeyonce winning the best, you
know, country album at theGrammys, you know, it shows that
somebody can start in one genre,that genres can be limiting as
well when it comes to music. Ifeel like as humans that we
can't limit ourselves saying,I'm Adam, the podcaster. Well,
(21:53):
I'm also Adam, the father. I'mAdam, the brother.
I'm Adam, the husband. There'sso many different aspects to me
than just a podcaster. So wecan't limit ourselves because if
we limit ourselves, then westart to tunnel vision. That's
all I can think of.
Kris Russell (22:08):
Yeah, that's a great a great image for it is
becoming really myopic, right?When we just start to see
ourselves more and morenarrowly, especially in
accounting and finance, I thinkthis is true in a lot more, a
lot of other professions aswell. But there's a certain
amount of we so strongly put ouridentities around who around our
(22:31):
vocations around our work. Andyes, I am, I happen to be
skilled at accounting andfinance, but at the deeper core
level, I'm not an, I am not anaccountant. I'm so much more
than that.
That's part of what makes me up.But I'm also a husband and I'm
also a hiker and I'm also aperson who loves to loves to
(22:53):
engage in spiritual practices.And I'm a person who loves to
volunteer and do other thingswith my time. So there's so many
things about me beyond just thefact that I have an accounting
and finance knowledge. And asleaders, I think it's really
beautiful that we can embracethat and start to look past our
titles and really begin to lookat each other as human beings
(23:14):
and understand that we have atremendous amount to give.
And we can only give the mostthat we have to give when we're
coming from a place of wholenessor coming from a place of
scarcity and lack and fear. Wecan know pretty quickly that's
that's not showing our fullself. That's not really
manifesting the deepest parts ofourselves.
Adam Larson (23:33):
And based on what you're saying, it sounds like
fear is an Okay thing. I feellike we get taught that fear is
a bad thing, that it's not Okayto be afraid. But based on what
you've been defining is whatcourage is, it's really fear is
okay. It's just what you do withthat fear.
Kris Russell (23:49):
That's what we do with it. Absolutely. Fear is a
part of the human experience.And to try to push it away and
pretend that it doesn't exist orto make it bad or wrong It does
us an extraordinary disservice.Another quote that comes to mind
that's really speaks to me aboutfear is that courage is not the
(24:09):
absence of fear, but therecognition that something is
more important than that fear.
Something is more important thanthat fear. We can use that fear
as our fuel, as part of ourfuel, as part of our fire by
acknowledging it, accepting it,letting you know, Hey, I see you
fear. How's it going? Good tosee you again. Make yourself
(24:32):
comfortable.
It's okay. We're going to getthrough this together. That
fear, just like any other partof us that we may not always
like was put there for a reason.It was put there to protect us.
It was put there to keep ussafe.
And that's okay. Those parts ofus are there for a good reason.
The problem is when thoseprotective behaviors like fear,
(24:54):
avoidance, there's many, guess,escapism, any of those things,
when those and the benefits ofthose behaviors are outweighed
by the costs. So, our fear iscosting us more than it's
benefiting us, and we're notlearning to work with that fear
and use it to evolve as a humanbeing, that's when we know we
(25:15):
have an opportunity to begin tobuild a different relationship
with that fear.
Adam Larson (25:20):
When we talk about vulnerability, a lot of times it
can be really connected totrust. You feel Okay to be
vulnerable because there's trustthere. What happens when there's
a lack of trust and how can yoube vulnerable? Let's say you're
doing the work, you've listenedto this, you're like inspired.
You're like, I want to be morevulnerable.
I want to be a better leader.But you're in an environment
where there's not much trust,especially in a workplace. Like
(25:41):
how do you how do you find a wayto still be that vulnerable,
strong leader, but withouttrust?
Kris Russell (25:47):
Yeah, I would always start with start with
ourselves. Where in my own lifeam I? Can I trust myself? Do I
follow through with the thingsthat I say that I'm going to do?
Where in my life, and we all doit.
This is not pointing a finger.I'm telling you this is part of
the human experience, but wherein our lives are we maybe not
living in as much integrity aswe can be? So it starts there,
(26:11):
is identifying where we cancontinue to be in more integrity
with ourselves, our loved ones,the people around us. And from
there, I think as we start tomake adjustments on our own
behaviors, we start to cultivatethose practices with the people
around us, with our teams. Andfrankly, one of the most
important things to do here isto name this.
(26:32):
We talked about the elephant inthe room earlier. Name the fact
that, Hey guys, listen, youknow, I'm noticing I've been
doing a lot of introspection.I'm thinking about our team and
our culture. I realized thatthere may not be as much trust
as I'd really liked her to behere. And I'm going to take
responsibility for my piece ofthat because I can see that I've
(26:52):
done this, this and that, orI've contributed to this way.
But I'm here to let you knowthat it's important to me that
we start changing this culture,that I want to develop a system
where we can be open andtrusting and more honest with
each other. And just start thereand see what happens. It's
amazing what happens. You talkabout vulnerability? I mean,
(27:14):
that's courage to walk out infront of a team or your boss or
your boss's boss or whateverthat looks like, your investors,
and say, You know what?
I think there's someopportunities here for us to
build trust. If that doesn'ttake courage, I don't know what
does. And that's how thiscourage and vulnerability walk
hand in hand. So yeah, I thinkthere's something to be said
(27:35):
about really owning it inourselves first. Where am I?
Where could I live in moreintegrity and deeper integrity
with myself? And then naming it.Being really out in front of it
and taking responsibility openlywith the team for what we can
and start start the ballrolling. Just get these
conversations going.
Adam Larson (27:55):
It's almost like when you have that conversation
that builds a level of trustjust automatically right there.
You're open like that, peopleare like, Okay, this is the type
of culture. Cool.
Kris Russell (28:08):
This is the type of culture. Yeah, absolutely. I
mean, can you I don't know ifyou've ever had the experience
of growing up if your parentsmade a mistake. I mean, if they
ever made a mistake and thenreally came and owned it. What a
what a what an experience thatthat was.
(28:28):
Can you think of anything likethat in your past?
Adam Larson (28:34):
If. I'm not sure. I can't remember that really
happening. But I can say thatI've tried to do that with my
children because as a persongrowing up, I didn't see that
very often where an adult wouldcome and say, Hey, this is this
is on me. Yeah.
(28:55):
And that may have happened, butI don't have memory of anything
that really stuck with me, soI'm not sure that it did. Yeah.
Kris Russell (29:03):
Well, I bring that up just because if you're seeing
it as a parent, if you'reengaging in that kind of
behavior, what I'm just curiouswhen you've done that, how has
it shifted the relationship withyour children?
Adam Larson (29:17):
I I hope I hope that, you know, I don't think my
kids listen to this podcast, butI hope that it has been a
positive influence on them thatthey see that, hey, I'm willing
to admit when I'm wrong. And sowhen I'm pushing you to say,
hey, be honest with me, it'sOkay to admit that you're wrong.
And I want to kind of find thatbalance, but also just willing
to just be Okay with, Hey, Imessed up and I made a mistake
(29:41):
and I'm sorry.
Kris Russell (29:43):
Yeah, absolutely. And we talk a lot about how as
leaders, are inescapablyaccountable for our actions.
Adam Larson (29:55):
Yeah.
Kris Russell (29:56):
And sometimes the most powerful thing that we can
do is to display our humannessand to be able to say, Listen,
I'm taking responsibility forparts of this situation that I
could have done a lot better.And I want you to know it's
(30:20):
important to you, my team, myboss, my whoever, my peers,
whatever, it's important to you,to me that you know that I know
that I have a part to play inthis. And here's what I'd like
to do differently going forward.Will you help me? Can you help
me walk different way with youin this relationship?
(30:41):
Can we work together tocultivate a different space
here, a different way of being?You know, there's Archbishop
Desmond Tutu, who was a NobelPrize winner. He talks about
forgiveness. He says, Anybodywho says forgiveness is easy
hasn't tried it. And I think thesame thing with vulnerability is
true, that anybody who says it'seasy or that it's somehow weak
(31:03):
hasn't tried it.
That really the courageous partsof us are there waiting for us
to step into our own. Yeah.
Adam Larson (31:13):
Well, and we've all seen the opposite example of
leaders who are not willing totake accountability, who
everything that happens, theyblame everybody else but
themselves. And you can kind ofsee what that brings. And I
don't think there's many peoplewho would want that type of
atmosphere, that type of placeto work in because it could
(31:33):
become very toxic. Because nomatter what happens, if you try
to take ownership of something,then suddenly, oh, I can't take
ownership because I'll getthrown in the bus and all these
different reparations willhappen.
Kris Russell (31:43):
Absolutely. And it doesn't mean that we have to
show all of our cards all thetime as leaders. We can't do
that either. That's that's notthat's not a part of
vulnerability. You know, wetalked about in the presentation
that we spoke with Brene Brownearlier.
She has a story in one of herbooks about a startup CEO who
came to her and said, look, I'mreally in over my head and I
(32:04):
think I'm going to tell myinvestors and my employees that
I'm in over my head. And shesaid, you know, that's probably
a terrible idea. Number one,you'll you'll you'll never get
funded again. But number two,much more importantly, you're
gonna be putting these employeeslivelihoods at risk. These are
people who've risked atremendous amount to work for
you.
But you absolutely have aresponsibility to communicate
(32:27):
this to someone you trust,someone who can help you through
this situation and walk hand inhand with you through what was a
very challenging situation. It'snot about showing the lure cards
all the time, but it is abouttaking ownership and
responsibility for where we haveroom to grow, and when
(32:49):
appropriate, sharing that withpeople who can help us.
Adam Larson (32:56):
Well, and I think it's very important, you know,
to have like it makes me thinkof mentorship and finding peers
that we can kind of chat withand kind of bounce ideas off of,
whether it's whether it's amentor mentee relationship or
just a peer to peer relationshipand how important that is to not
be closed off. Because a lot oftimes as a leader, it's kind of
(33:17):
lonely at the top.
Kris Russell (33:19):
It is. It certainly can be very lonely.
You know, of course, I'm as acoach, I'm partial to to
professional coaching, but that,of course, doesn't have to be
the only outlet. It can be agreat outlet, but really we just
need to be able to find placeswhere we can be, we can let our
guard down and we can be in aspace of trust and vulnerability
(33:42):
with people who say, you knowwhat, I'm not engaging in
behavior that is really sittingright with me. I want to make
some changes.
I want to be held accountable tothis. And how can we come
together as a group to helpsupport me? There's a study by,
I believe it's DominicanUniversity, that shows that if
(34:05):
we not only explain our goals tosomeone, but then check-in, for
example, weekly with someone inan accountability relationship
and update them on our progress,that we are dramatically,
dramatically more likely to beragingly successful in achieving
(34:26):
our goals. And it's no differentwith becoming a better leader, a
better husband, a better father,a better community member, all
of that. But you're absolutelyright.
It does require some, a placewhere we can come together and
let our guard down and be openand trusting and vulnerable with
each other. And as leaders,there are, it can be, feel very,
(34:50):
very lonely. It certainly can.But I've been blessed to have
some really great examples ofleadership too. I don't know
that he'll hear this podcast,but one of the most incredible
leaders I ever worked for was aCEO named Phil Farmer, just an
extraordinary human being whotook absolute accountability for
his actions and the impact thatthey had on his team and was
(35:10):
also the very first person tosay I screwed up and here's how
I'm going make it better andhere's what we're going to do
differently.
And that type of leadership, Imean, you'd follow a person like
that anywhere, right? You'dfollow that person anywhere.
Adam Larson (35:26):
Yeah, you really would. Well, Kris, I just really
want to thank you for coming onthe podcast. Thanks for having
this conversation with me and Iencourage everybody to check out
what Kris is doing online andconnect with him. And thank you
again for coming on.
Kris Russell (35:38):
You're so welcome, Adam. It's my pleasure. I hope
we get to do something like thisagain. This
Announcer (35:44):
has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you
with the latest perspectives ofthought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.IMAnet.org.
On this episode of Count Me In, we're excited to
have Kris Russell join us. Kris,the leadership coach at
Conscious Public Accountants,previously captivated our
audience in January 2025 duringIMA's Leadership Academy webinar
series on his session Leadershipand Leading from the Heart. His
insights resonated deeply,leading to a flood of questions
from those eager to explore howvulnerability can enhance
(00:43):
leadership. In today'sconversation, Kris discusses
company culture, the interplaybetween vulnerability and
business needs, and offerspractical advice on embracing
courageous and authenticleadership. Whether you're
navigating trust issues in theworkplace or seeking personal
growth as a leader, this episodeis packed with ideas that are
both inspiring and actionable,guiding you toward leading with
heart and wisdom.
(01:09):
Kris, thank you so much forcoming on the Count Me In
podcast today. I'm reallyexcited to have you on. And for
those who don't know, back inJanuary of twenty twenty five,
we had you on our LeadershipAcademy webinar series, and the
title of that webinar was calledLeadership and Leading from the
Heart. And it was very wellreceived by our audience, and we
had so many questions coming infrom the audience that I asked
(01:29):
you, I said, Hey, would you wantto come on to the podcast and
kind of dig a little more intothe topic a little bit more?
Graciously, you said yes.
And so I want to thank you forthat. And I figured we could
start off a little just maybegive people a five, like a
quick, a quick overview of whatwe talked about the webinar. I
want to encourage everybody tocheck the notes of this podcast
because we'll send you a link sothat you can go watch that
(01:51):
webinar and kind of see what itwas all about. But maybe you
could start by just giving aquick overview.
Kris Russell (01:56):
I'd be glad to, Adam. First of all, thank you
for having me, and I reallyappreciate the opportunity to be
here with you. At the end of theday, the presentation on
leadership and vulnerability isan opportunity for me to explore
some of the topics that havebeen so important for me as a
leader in accounting andfinance, and now a coach of
(02:18):
leaders in accounting andfinance. I grew up in a culture
of leadership that was notalways about vulnerability. All
right, I really carried a lot ofthat stoicism, a lot of that
sort of discipline mind.
And some of that's reallyimportant for leadership. And
that's okay too. But I found inmy own experience that as I was
(02:40):
able to embrace vulnerability asa leader, number one, my quality
of life was impactedtremendously. I was a happier,
more engaged person at work. Imade better decisions.
I was better to my team. So notonly was my quality of life
better by, because of learningto embrace vulnerability, but
(03:01):
also my team had a much betterexperience. And therefore, when
my team had a better experience,everybody in the companies where
I had these leadership positionsbenefited from that. These
behaviors, all of our behaviorsreally, whether they're
wonderful behaviors likevulnerability or destructive
behaviors, they havereverberating effects to really
(03:22):
everyone in and around ourorganizations. Everybody that we
touch is eventually touched insome way by our actions.
And the more that we can embraceand cultivate actions that are
authentic and really lift us upand lift up others and help us
to be more open and honest withourselves and others, I think
(03:43):
the better our workplaces canbe. Yeah.
Adam Larson (03:51):
Kris, I really appreciate you giving that
overview and that understanding.And when you were presenting
during the webinar, one of thethings that I noticed from the
audience was a lot of questionsabout company culture. People
are really reflecting onthemselves. They're also
reflecting on how they interactwith their bosses. And so one of
the big things that, you know, Ikind of combine a couple of
questions together, some ofthese like they were asking,
(04:12):
what is your take on companyculture in general?
Because a lot of times thingslike bottom line and returns are
the leader of the conversationand people, they push harder,
push harder because, you know,everybody's focused on that
short term view of making surewe can meet our bottom line,
help our investors or whateveris driving your business. And so
how do you balance this idea ofvulnerability and being a better
(04:33):
leader and also the needs ofyour business? Because
ultimately it's about, you know,keeping your business going.
Kris Russell (04:40):
Of course. Well, there's a lot there to unpack. I
think we can hold space forboth. And in fact, I think that
some of the studies that welooked at when we did in the
presentation that we didtogether demonstrate that
healthier workplaces, healthierorganizational cultures actually
(05:01):
have the opportunity to increaseprofitability. That when people
are engaged and they feel a partof the team and they feel
energized and they feel a strongsense of trust, mutual trust
between employee and employer,that actually has real life
implications for a company'sprofitability.
(05:23):
So I think these things areactually, they actually go hand
in hand. And yes, of course,organizations exist for many
reasons. And one of them is to,is to make money for their
shareholders or for theirsponsors or whatever that looks
like. And I believe that asleaders, we have a
responsibility to leave thoseorganizations better than we
(05:43):
found them. And that so let mejust pause there for a second
and I wanna really reflect onyour reflect on your question.
So you're asking aboutorganizational culture. How does
vulnerability come into playwhen we also have to balance
profitability? Well, like Isaid, number one, I think that
they certainly can go hand inhand. Number two, I think that
(06:03):
rather than if you work in abig, large multinational
corporation, unless you're inthe c suite or on the board,
you're probably ultimately notgoing to influence the entire
company culture, at least notright away. That's okay.
I think instead of trying tochange the entire corporate
culture or the organizationalculture that you're a part of, I
(06:26):
wonder what it would be like tostart just taking responsibility
for what is within your locus ofcontrol or what is within your
sphere of influence. If you workfor a blue chip Fortune 100
company, no, you're probably notgoing to influence the entire
culture. Certainly not rightaway. But can you make small
(06:48):
changes in the way that youinteract with your team, in a
way that you interact with yourvendors, your suppliers, any of
the people that yourorganization touches. Imagine
just what a small, what somesmall effort there could do and
having a ripple effect on yourquality of life and the people
that you engage with, even if itfeels very small at first.
(07:12):
If we think about just a one ortwo degree shift over time, that
adds up tremendously. I'm goingpause there for a second. How
does that resonate with you?
Adam Larson (07:26):
I really like that view because a lot of times when
we think about our organizationsthat we work for, it can get
really stressful when we thinkabout, oh, this person is doing
this, this person is doing that.And then I look at this senior
person and they do that. Youknow, what I can I do? And
shifting from being annoyed bythings that are happening. It's
(07:49):
looking at the things we likelike a lot of times that that
we're faced with.
Hey, what things can you affectright now? What are things that
you're in control of? And you'rein control of the people you
interact with, the people youcome into contact with, and you
create your own small bubble of,hey, these are the things that
I'm doing and I'm impacting asopposed to getting so lost in
(08:11):
frustrations. Because no matterwhere you work, you're going to
have frustrations. There's goingto be things that annoy you, but
you can't get lost there or elseyou'll probably end up being a
very bitter person.
Kris Russell (08:25):
Absolutely. By no means does this mean that we
should be walked on or trulymistreated or dealing with
relationships at work that areabusive or really just against
the core of our integrity.That's not what that means to me
at all. But what it does mean isthat to be vulnerable leaders,
(08:48):
have to take responsibility forwhere we have influence. Where
do we have influence?
And part of that, and this is alittle uncomfortable, part of
that is really rooting outvictimhood and avoidant
behaviors that we engage in,because we all do it. We all die
(09:09):
certainly have. We all do it. Sorooting out those victimhood,
those avoidant behaviors, andwhere am I? How am I
contributing to an environmentor a workplace culture that may
not be the one that I reallywant to see?
And really, just like with anybig change, it really starts
with us. We've all heard thatadage, if you point the finger,
(09:31):
there's three fingers pointingback at you, right? So we've
really got to look at what aremy behaviors, what are my
reactions, my responses to theculture around me, And how can I
first be in integrity withmyself and in being in integrity
with myself, how can I then makesure that I'm being in integrity
and compassion with the peoplethat are around me? How does
(09:52):
that resonate with you, Adam?
Adam Larson (09:55):
So once you've once you've kind of taken those once
you've kind of taken those stepsthat you you just mentioned,
like, hey, I'm looking atmyself, I'm looking internally.
How do you take that to the nextlevel of making sure that you
don't get walked on? Becausesometimes you don't understand
that that's happening. You don'tknow how to face that head on,
especially in a toxic workenvironment.
Kris Russell (10:14):
Yeah. When we talk about in the original
presentation, when we definewhat vulnerability is not And
one of the big things that it isnot is being walked on. It's not
being a pushover. It's notbeing, it's not about being,
keeping your thoughts andfeelings to yourself. In fact,
it's quite the opposite.
It's really being firmlygrounded in what we believe in
(10:39):
our integrity. You'll hear meuse that word a lot in our
personal values, our corevalues, really understanding
what those are and being awarewhen those values or that
integrity is not, is eitherbeing, is being mistreated or is
being that what we're doing orthe culture that we're part of
is somehow not in alignment. Oreven more often is the case when
(11:01):
our own actions are not inalignment with our personal
values, our integrity. So Iwould say that it just comes
back to continuing to numberone, know and understand
ourselves. What are our values?
How do we know what's importantto us? What are the things that
we're willing to give on? Whatare the things that we're not
willing to compromise on becauseit's just too important,
especially if it's a matter ofpersonal integrity. And so, it's
(11:25):
actually really healthy for usto do things that we talked
about during the presentation,for example, setting boundaries.
If we aren't setting boundaries,we can't expect other people to
follow them.
Right? It's actually up to theperson who sets the boundary to
make sure that other peoplefollow that boundary and respect
the boundary. So there's a lothere. Again, for me, this
(11:47):
continues to look inward incultivating the person that I
want to be, not just as aleader, but as a human being.
How does that person show up?
Where am I maybe even walking onmyself? You know, at the end of
the day, we're, there's not justone of us, there's parts of us.
We have multiple parts. There'sthe part of us that wants this,
and there's the part of us thatwants that, and there's the part
of us that that yearns for this,and the part of us that needs
(12:09):
that. So what parts of us are wemaybe walking all over and not
ignoring and respecting?
Again, I think it just alwayscomes back to starting with us
and that that that look inwardinto into the deeper self and
really working on ourselvesfirst and foremost. Because only
when we can stand in our ownintegrity and know what we need
and what our boundaries are canwe set a boundary and not be
(12:33):
walked on by somebody else.
Adam Larson (12:36):
It makes me think, you know, when you have your own
boundaries and somebody hastheir boundaries, how do you
kind of mesh together when yourboundaries are different?
Kris Russell (12:46):
Yeah, what a great question. And of course, this is
inevitable, right? Differentpeople have different needs and
different desires. And that's, Ithink, to be celebrated and
embraced. Maybe the one of thekey ways to make peace with this
is to name it.
I talk a lot with my clientsabout just naming the pink
(13:07):
elephant in the room. Adam, ifyou and I had very different
expectations about how we weregoing to run this podcast today,
if we pretended that thosedidn't exist, we would not be
able to have a successfulexperience today. And we would
need to come together and beopen and honest about what we're
experiencing. That doesn't meanthat we need to be nasty or
(13:29):
vindictive or anything, but itcan mean, hey, this is the truth
I'm experiencing right now, AndI sense that your truth is
different and we need to meethere in the middle. Where can we
find some common ground here?
And work to compromise and notignore the fact that we might
have some differences in ourboundaries. Cause I would
imagine that in almost everycase, if we're able to do that,
(13:53):
we're able to come together inopenness and honesty about what
those different boundaries canbe, we actually have a lot to
learn from each other, and a lotto grow through in going through
that experience together. Andwhen you and I can have that
conversation and be open, evenif there is a power difference,
even if there is a powerdifference, can almost guarantee
that we're gonna come on theother side of that in a stronger
(14:17):
way, even if there is somehealthy conflict along the way.
Adam Larson (14:20):
Yeah. So, there's the term you used during the
webinar called invulnerable. AndI know everybody's heard the
word vulnerable, so maybe we canjust do a quick definition of
what is invulnerable versus whatis vulnerable, just so our
audience can understand and wecan kind of continue the
conversation, really.
Kris Russell (14:38):
When in the context of vulnerability and
leadership, when I think ofinvulnerability, I'm really
speaking about behaviors thatkeep us closed off, where we're
not communicating our needs,where we are doing things that
(15:01):
lead us to feel small orunengaged or disrespected,
walked on as we just spoke of,or when we are not letting our
light shine. You know, we allhave these really tremendous
gifts that we either were bornwith or we develop over time,
but if we're not letting thatlight shine in our workplace, I
(15:24):
think that's a lack ofvulnerability or being
invulnerable. I think reallyanything that we do, we talked
about in the presentation, howdo I know when I'm doing things
that don't align with my trueself, with my higher self? And
the way we know that is, what amI doing that's with a full
heart? And what am I doing thatmaybe causes me regret, or makes
(15:45):
me feel small, or makes me feelfame, or resentment?
Those are really big red flagsto help us just be aware of
behaviors that we all do, we alldo, that are really that
opposite, that antithesis ofbeing a vulnerable leader. I'm
(16:07):
gonna pause for a second. I'mhappy to talk more about it, but
does that that make sense?
Adam Larson (16:12):
I think it does. I think we have to get it's one of
the vulnerability or vulnerableis one of those words you have
to kind of get the the big oldelephant out of the room. People
see that word and they think,oh, it's just somebody who can't
stand up to anybody. It's it'sthis or it's that. There's a lot
of assumptions made about thatword.
And I think if we can get overthat, we could actually be more
(16:33):
vulnerable and be more strongerleaders.
Kris Russell (16:37):
I think so, too. I'd like to give you a synonym
for vulnerability that maybethose people that are just
really skeptical about what areuncomfortable with it, that a
synonym that really works for meis also courage. Doctor. Brene
Brown, who is really the queenof vulnerability, she's written
many books on the subject, talksabout courage and the importance
(16:59):
of courage and cultivatingvulnerability and how we have to
be courageous in order to trulyexpress ourselves, to truly see
others. And for me,vulnerability is really
embracing the courage factor.
I had one of my coaching peersnot too long ago tell me that,
she said, Kris, courage is fearplus action. Fear plus action.
(17:26):
And that really struck me. Thatmeans that I can't be in a space
of courage without having fearpresent. It's simply not
possible because by definition,courage requires us to be
overcoming fear, to be workingwith fear.
And so that fear of showingourselves, fear of being seen,
(17:47):
fear of having other people knowwhat we're experiencing, or
maybe even this fear of seeingand having compassion for
others, all of that is real, andit's okay, and we can still work
to have courageous, to attackthat courageously, to work with
(18:08):
it, instead of making it theenemy, just to be there with it
and be present. So, I thinkthat's actually, we don't have
to use the word vulnerability.We can use it, pick another
term, but what it does,vulnerability for me in this
context is not about weakness inany way. We mentioned a quote
during the presentation, I'llsee if I can get it right, by
philosopher Criss Jami. He saysthat, To be vulnerable is to
(18:33):
share your weakness and to shareyour weakness is to show your
strength.
These things go hand in hand.
Adam Larson (18:42):
So you mentioned knowing your authentic self and
something doesn't align to yourauthentic self. And one of the
things I think I asked yousomething similar to this during
the live event because, youknow, how do you know what your
authentic self is? And then howdo you know that it's good?
Because the person was askingabout what if my authentic self
is selfish or something that isnot quote unquote good? How do I
balance that?
(19:02):
How I what do I find that? And Ithink that it's an interesting
conversation to have becausewhat if your authentic self is
wants to do something terribleto people? You're like, wait,
what do I do with that? It's alittle extreme, but you know.
Kris Russell (19:13):
Of course. I would go back to this idea that there
are parts of us, any of ourlisteners, any of the audience
that may have undergone therapyusing a model called internal
family systems is a very popularpsychiatric psychological model
today that really helps us seethat there are different parts
of us. We're not just this onething, right? So there are parts
(19:37):
of us that are fearful. Thereare parts of us that are
courageous.
There's parts of us that arevindictive and nasty, and
there's parts of us that reallyare display a beautiful role
model of the human spirit. Thoseare all present within us, and
we don't the goal of our ownwork is not to ignore those
parts or shame them. It's reallyto bring them together and
(20:00):
understand those hurtful partsor those parts of us that might
be construed as negative. Whatdo we need to do to heal those?
What traumas are in our past, orwhat brought it on?
What is this behavior about thathas felt so protective? Alright.
So, Adam, we were talking aboutthese different parts of us that
exist in response to an audiencemember's question about these
(20:23):
different parts of us. And weacknowledge that there's parts
of us that are really beautiful.And there's parts of us that are
compassionate.
And there's parts of us thatare, that are not always so
compassionate or that arejudgmental and negative. But I
think our true self is reallyeven deeper than that. Whether
you look at it from a spiritualpoint of view, all the major
(20:45):
spiritual traditions of theworld really point to the same
thing that there's a deeper selfthat's really this really
beautiful, beautiful aspect oflove and compassion that's
present in all of us. And evenif you're not coming from a
spiritual point of view, justhumanly, have the ability to be
extraordinarily compassionate,kind, helpful, generous,
(21:08):
generous beings. And I believethat those parts of us really
come from our deeper, truenature, the true self.
Yeah.
Adam Larson (21:17):
They really do. And I appreciate you bringing up the
whole there's different aspectsto every person because growing
up, a lot of times, people thatI know that I've talked to, a
lot of us kind of felt like wehad to put ourselves in inside
one small box.
Kris Russell (21:30):
Of course.
Adam Larson (21:31):
And being able to break out of that box and
recognize that you can do manydifferent things, that you're
not just limited one thing. WithBeyonce winning the best, you
know, country album at theGrammys, you know, it shows that
somebody can start in one genre,that genres can be limiting as
well when it comes to music. Ifeel like as humans that we
can't limit ourselves saying,I'm Adam, the podcaster. Well,
(21:53):
I'm also Adam, the father. I'mAdam, the brother.
I'm Adam, the husband. There'sso many different aspects to me
than just a podcaster. So wecan't limit ourselves because if
we limit ourselves, then westart to tunnel vision. That's
all I can think of.
Kris Russell (22:08):
Yeah, that's a great a great image for it is
becoming really myopic, right?When we just start to see
ourselves more and morenarrowly, especially in
accounting and finance, I thinkthis is true in a lot more, a
lot of other professions aswell. But there's a certain
amount of we so strongly put ouridentities around who around our
(22:31):
vocations around our work. Andyes, I am, I happen to be
skilled at accounting andfinance, but at the deeper core
level, I'm not an, I am not anaccountant. I'm so much more
than that.
That's part of what makes me up.But I'm also a husband and I'm
also a hiker and I'm also aperson who loves to loves to
(22:53):
engage in spiritual practices.And I'm a person who loves to
volunteer and do other thingswith my time. So there's so many
things about me beyond just thefact that I have an accounting
and finance knowledge. And asleaders, I think it's really
beautiful that we can embracethat and start to look past our
titles and really begin to lookat each other as human beings
(23:14):
and understand that we have atremendous amount to give.
And we can only give the mostthat we have to give when we're
coming from a place of wholenessor coming from a place of
scarcity and lack and fear. Wecan know pretty quickly that's
that's not showing our fullself. That's not really
manifesting the deepest parts ofourselves.
Adam Larson (23:33):
And based on what you're saying, it sounds like
fear is an Okay thing. I feellike we get taught that fear is
a bad thing, that it's not Okayto be afraid. But based on what
you've been defining is whatcourage is, it's really fear is
okay. It's just what you do withthat fear.
Kris Russell (23:49):
That's what we do with it. Absolutely. Fear is a
part of the human experience.And to try to push it away and
pretend that it doesn't exist orto make it bad or wrong It does
us an extraordinary disservice.Another quote that comes to mind
that's really speaks to me aboutfear is that courage is not the
(24:09):
absence of fear, but therecognition that something is
more important than that fear.
Something is more important thanthat fear. We can use that fear
as our fuel, as part of ourfuel, as part of our fire by
acknowledging it, accepting it,letting you know, Hey, I see you
fear. How's it going? Good tosee you again. Make yourself
(24:32):
comfortable.
It's okay. We're going to getthrough this together. That
fear, just like any other partof us that we may not always
like was put there for a reason.It was put there to protect us.
It was put there to keep ussafe.
And that's okay. Those parts ofus are there for a good reason.
The problem is when thoseprotective behaviors like fear,
(24:54):
avoidance, there's many, guess,escapism, any of those things,
when those and the benefits ofthose behaviors are outweighed
by the costs. So, our fear iscosting us more than it's
benefiting us, and we're notlearning to work with that fear
and use it to evolve as a humanbeing, that's when we know we
(25:15):
have an opportunity to begin tobuild a different relationship
with that fear.
Adam Larson (25:20):
When we talk about vulnerability, a lot of times it
can be really connected totrust. You feel Okay to be
vulnerable because there's trustthere. What happens when there's
a lack of trust and how can yoube vulnerable? Let's say you're
doing the work, you've listenedto this, you're like inspired.
You're like, I want to be morevulnerable.
I want to be a better leader.But you're in an environment
where there's not much trust,especially in a workplace. Like
(25:41):
how do you how do you find a wayto still be that vulnerable,
strong leader, but withouttrust?
Kris Russell (25:47):
Yeah, I would always start with start with
ourselves. Where in my own lifeam I? Can I trust myself? Do I
follow through with the thingsthat I say that I'm going to do?
Where in my life, and we all doit.
This is not pointing a finger.I'm telling you this is part of
the human experience, but wherein our lives are we maybe not
living in as much integrity aswe can be? So it starts there,
(26:11):
is identifying where we cancontinue to be in more integrity
with ourselves, our loved ones,the people around us. And from
there, I think as we start tomake adjustments on our own
behaviors, we start to cultivatethose practices with the people
around us, with our teams. Andfrankly, one of the most
important things to do here isto name this.
(26:32):
We talked about the elephant inthe room earlier. Name the fact
that, Hey guys, listen, youknow, I'm noticing I've been
doing a lot of introspection.I'm thinking about our team and
our culture. I realized thatthere may not be as much trust
as I'd really liked her to behere. And I'm going to take
responsibility for my piece ofthat because I can see that I've
(26:52):
done this, this and that, orI've contributed to this way.
But I'm here to let you knowthat it's important to me that
we start changing this culture,that I want to develop a system
where we can be open andtrusting and more honest with
each other. And just start thereand see what happens. It's
amazing what happens. You talkabout vulnerability? I mean,
(27:14):
that's courage to walk out infront of a team or your boss or
your boss's boss or whateverthat looks like, your investors,
and say, You know what?
I think there's someopportunities here for us to
build trust. If that doesn'ttake courage, I don't know what
does. And that's how thiscourage and vulnerability walk
hand in hand. So yeah, I thinkthere's something to be said
(27:35):
about really owning it inourselves first. Where am I?
Where could I live in moreintegrity and deeper integrity
with myself? And then naming it.Being really out in front of it
and taking responsibility openlywith the team for what we can
and start start the ballrolling. Just get these
conversations going.
Adam Larson (27:55):
It's almost like when you have that conversation
that builds a level of trustjust automatically right there.
You're open like that, peopleare like, Okay, this is the type
of culture. Cool.
Kris Russell (28:08):
This is the type of culture. Yeah, absolutely. I
mean, can you I don't know ifyou've ever had the experience
of growing up if your parentsmade a mistake. I mean, if they
ever made a mistake and thenreally came and owned it. What a
what a what an experience thatthat was.
(28:28):
Can you think of anything likethat in your past?
Adam Larson (28:34):
If. I'm not sure. I can't remember that really
happening. But I can say thatI've tried to do that with my
children because as a persongrowing up, I didn't see that
very often where an adult wouldcome and say, Hey, this is this
is on me. Yeah.
(28:55):
And that may have happened, butI don't have memory of anything
that really stuck with me, soI'm not sure that it did. Yeah.
Kris Russell (29:03):
Well, I bring that up just because if you're seeing
it as a parent, if you'reengaging in that kind of
behavior, what I'm just curiouswhen you've done that, how has
it shifted the relationship withyour children?
Adam Larson (29:17):
I I hope I hope that, you know, I don't think my
kids listen to this podcast, butI hope that it has been a
positive influence on them thatthey see that, hey, I'm willing
to admit when I'm wrong. And sowhen I'm pushing you to say,
hey, be honest with me, it'sOkay to admit that you're wrong.
And I want to kind of find thatbalance, but also just willing
to just be Okay with, Hey, Imessed up and I made a mistake
(29:41):
and I'm sorry.
Kris Russell (29:43):
Yeah, absolutely. And we talk a lot about how as
leaders, are inescapablyaccountable for our actions.
Adam Larson (29:55):
Yeah.
Kris Russell (29:56):
And sometimes the most powerful thing that we can
do is to display our humannessand to be able to say, Listen,
I'm taking responsibility forparts of this situation that I
could have done a lot better.And I want you to know it's
(30:20):
important to you, my team, myboss, my whoever, my peers,
whatever, it's important to you,to me that you know that I know
that I have a part to play inthis. And here's what I'd like
to do differently going forward.Will you help me? Can you help
me walk different way with youin this relationship?
(30:41):
Can we work together tocultivate a different space
here, a different way of being?You know, there's Archbishop
Desmond Tutu, who was a NobelPrize winner. He talks about
forgiveness. He says, Anybodywho says forgiveness is easy
hasn't tried it. And I think thesame thing with vulnerability is
true, that anybody who says it'seasy or that it's somehow weak
(31:03):
hasn't tried it.
That really the courageous partsof us are there waiting for us
to step into our own. Yeah.
Adam Larson (31:13):
Well, and we've all seen the opposite example of
leaders who are not willing totake accountability, who
everything that happens, theyblame everybody else but
themselves. And you can kind ofsee what that brings. And I
don't think there's many peoplewho would want that type of
atmosphere, that type of placeto work in because it could
(31:33):
become very toxic. Because nomatter what happens, if you try
to take ownership of something,then suddenly, oh, I can't take
ownership because I'll getthrown in the bus and all these
different reparations willhappen.
Kris Russell (31:43):
Absolutely. And it doesn't mean that we have to
show all of our cards all thetime as leaders. We can't do
that either. That's that's notthat's not a part of
vulnerability. You know, wetalked about in the presentation
that we spoke with Brene Brownearlier.
She has a story in one of herbooks about a startup CEO who
came to her and said, look, I'mreally in over my head and I
(32:04):
think I'm going to tell myinvestors and my employees that
I'm in over my head. And shesaid, you know, that's probably
a terrible idea. Number one,you'll you'll you'll never get
funded again. But number two,much more importantly, you're
gonna be putting these employeeslivelihoods at risk. These are
people who've risked atremendous amount to work for
you.
But you absolutely have aresponsibility to communicate
(32:27):
this to someone you trust,someone who can help you through
this situation and walk hand inhand with you through what was a
very challenging situation. It'snot about showing the lure cards
all the time, but it is abouttaking ownership and
responsibility for where we haveroom to grow, and when
(32:49):
appropriate, sharing that withpeople who can help us.
Adam Larson (32:56):
Well, and I think it's very important, you know,
to have like it makes me thinkof mentorship and finding peers
that we can kind of chat withand kind of bounce ideas off of,
whether it's whether it's amentor mentee relationship or
just a peer to peer relationshipand how important that is to not
be closed off. Because a lot oftimes as a leader, it's kind of
(33:17):
lonely at the top.
Kris Russell (33:19):
It is. It certainly can be very lonely.
You know, of course, I'm as acoach, I'm partial to to
professional coaching, but that,of course, doesn't have to be
the only outlet. It can be agreat outlet, but really we just
need to be able to find placeswhere we can be, we can let our
guard down and we can be in aspace of trust and vulnerability
(33:42):
with people who say, you knowwhat, I'm not engaging in
behavior that is really sittingright with me. I want to make
some changes.
I want to be held accountable tothis. And how can we come
together as a group to helpsupport me? There's a study by,
I believe it's DominicanUniversity, that shows that if
(34:05):
we not only explain our goals tosomeone, but then check-in, for
example, weekly with someone inan accountability relationship
and update them on our progress,that we are dramatically,
dramatically more likely to beragingly successful in achieving
(34:26):
our goals. And it's no differentwith becoming a better leader, a
better husband, a better father,a better community member, all
of that. But you're absolutelyright.
It does require some, a placewhere we can come together and
let our guard down and be openand trusting and vulnerable with
each other. And as leaders,there are, it can be, feel very,
(34:50):
very lonely. It certainly can.But I've been blessed to have
some really great examples ofleadership too. I don't know
that he'll hear this podcast,but one of the most incredible
leaders I ever worked for was aCEO named Phil Farmer, just an
extraordinary human being whotook absolute accountability for
his actions and the impact thatthey had on his team and was
(35:10):
also the very first person tosay I screwed up and here's how
I'm going make it better andhere's what we're going to do
differently.
And that type of leadership, Imean, you'd follow a person like
that anywhere, right? You'dfollow that person anywhere.
Adam Larson (35:26):
Yeah, you really would. Well, Kris, I just really
want to thank you for coming onthe podcast. Thanks for having
this conversation with me and Iencourage everybody to check out
what Kris is doing online andconnect with him. And thank you
again for coming on.
Kris Russell (35:38):
You're so welcome, Adam. It's my pleasure. I hope
we get to do something like thisagain. This
Announcer (35:44):
has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you
with the latest perspectives ofthought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.IMAnet.org.
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