July 7, 2025 • 30 mins
Ready to take your career to the next level? Join host Adam Larson as he chats with Brian Hock, Founder and CEO of HOCK International and expert in accounting and finance education, about what really matters when it comes to professional certifications like the CMA. Brian breaks down why earning the certificate is just the start—and why actually applying your knowledge, building communication skills, and getting involved at work are the keys to standing out (and moving up).
Whether you’re just starting out or eyeing that next big promotion, Brian shares plenty of practical advice: choosing the right certification for your goals, making the most of continuing education, and preparing for real-world workplace challenges. There’s even some straight talk about what to do when you don’t know the answer, the power of networking inside your organization, and how to set yourself up (and your team) for long-term success.
Tune in for an episode packed with career wisdom, honest stories, and actionable tips—with Brian Hock’s trademark straightforward approach making it all refreshingly clear. Don’t miss this thoughtful take on how to turn certifications into actual career wins!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adam Larson (00:21):
Welcome back to Count Me In. Today, I'm excited
to welcome back Brian Hock,founder and CEO of Hock
International. If you caught ourlast episode together, you know
Brian's a leading voice inprofessional certifications.
This time, we're taking things astep further, exploring not just
the value of certifications likethe CMA, but why applying what
you've learned is crucial forcareer growth. Brian shares
(00:42):
candid insight into howcertifications can and should
align with your current role andfuture ambitions, emphasizing
that collecting credentialsisn't enough if you're not using
them to deliver results on thejob.
We also talk about howcontinuous learning, expanding
communication skills, andproactive networking are key
drivers in securing promotionsand moving up the organizational
ladder. So whether you're justgetting your foot in the door or
(01:04):
aiming your next big careermove, Brian's advice will help
you make the most of hard earnedknowledge and set yourself apart
for long term success. Well,Brian, we're really excited to
have you back on Count Me In.Last time you were here, we
talked about the importance ofcertifications. So today we're
(01:24):
going to start talking aboutcertifications, kind of just the
beginning.
So maybe you can elaborate alittle bit why it's crucial to
apply what they've learnedrather than just attaining the
certification.
Brian Hock (01:34):
Well, thanks, Adam. It's great to be back and
continue the discussion reallythat we had last time. And I
think when we talk about thevalue of certifications, there's
absolutely great value incertifications and what it does
for a person in their career.But we have to remember that
ultimately we have to do ourjob, and we have to do our job
(01:55):
well. You can have all thecertifications in the world, but
if you can't show up for workand actually do what your
company is expecting you to do,you're not going have a real
long time of employment there.
And so what we're looking atwith the certification is
essentially making certain thatwhat we learn in the
certification lines up with whatit is that we're doing at work.
(02:16):
And that knowledge, the tools,the skills that we get from the
certification are going to helpus do what it is that we're
supposed to do at work. And soit's that knowledge that
ultimately is going to help usdo our job well, which is
ultimately what's going to leadto the promotion and the other
opportunities and having thosegrowth opportunities as we go
(02:37):
through our career.
Adam Larson (02:39):
So when we look at certifications like the CMA, how
do those how do thesecertifications help a
professional in their day to dayjob within the organization?
Brian Hock (02:47):
Well, they help if they're lined up with what it is
that the person is doing. So Ithink when we look at
certifications, there's kind ofI mean, we can categorize them
in many different ways, but I'mgoing to put them into two
categories. One is kind of amore general foundational
certification, and then theothers are very specific later
in your career when you become aspecialist certifications. And
(03:09):
there are more certificationsthan we know about, because if
you get into corporate finance,there's certifications that are
very specific. If you're intreasury management, there's
certifications that are veryspecific.
And so as you go through yourcareer and you become a
specialist, you get thatin-depth knowledge in a topic,
there are probablycertifications that are very
(03:29):
closely aligned to thatspecialty knowledge or specialty
service that you're providing.But with CMA, this is what I
would call a more of a generalcertification in that it covers
the skills that you need inaccounting and finance. If
you're being hired to be aspecific treasury management
person for a large organization,CMA's probably not giving you
(03:50):
the knowledge that you need forthat specific job. But if you
take that person and go back intheir career ten years, when
they were starting in thefinance function, that's where
those kind of general skillsthat come in CMA. And so what
CMA does, and I think it does itprobably better than any
certification out there, is thatit provides accounting and
(04:12):
finance reality based skills.
What it is that an accountingprofessional, a finance
professional is going to beexpected to do in the first
handful of years of theircareer. And with that knowledge,
they're able to do their job,but also understand how that
(04:33):
individual job fits into theorganization as a whole. You
know, you write a report andthat report goes somewhere, and
the person you send that reportto is making a decision. They're
taking your information andcombining it with the
information that three otherpeople send them and putting
that into another report thatgoes on. And if we understand
what it is that is being donewith the information we're
(04:55):
creating, we may be able topresent it in a slightly better
way for the person who's usingit.
We may realize that, oh, there'ssome more information that we
should include in this. This hasmost of the information that's
needed, but with all the datathat companies are collecting
these days, it may be thatthere's information available
that wasn't two years ago whenthis form was created or this
(05:17):
report was created. So if wehave that knowledge, not only
about our specific job, but whatthe company is doing, how our
job fits into what the companyis doing, we're able to do our
job better. We're able to helpour customer, even if it's an
internal customer, the personwho's using the work that we do,
(05:37):
we're going to help them dotheir job better. And that's how
we get promoted.
That's how we get thoseopportunities when we perform
not just our task, but weunderstand what that task is to
the larger organization.
Adam Larson (05:51):
Well, and that's pertinent. Like you said, you
want to keep your job ratherthan just get one, right? So
there's so many elements thatyou have to do. And, you know,
and when you're just startingout, you're kind of you're not
sure of the landscape of whatyour roles and responsibilities
are going to be, you know? Sowhat would you what would you
say to somebody who is, youknow, they've been in their job
for a little bit?
They see the CMA as a as a placeto get a bunch of knowledge. It
(06:13):
may not necessarily line upperfectly, but they see, you
know, is that still is thatstill a way for them to kind of
expand their knowledge andpossibly get promoted as well?
Brian Hock (06:22):
Absolutely. I think with certifications, we need to
make certain that when we choosea certification, we're not
looking at what we do today, butwe look at what our next step
is. And part of that is becauseit's going to take time to get
the certification. Now, it mightbe six months, it might be
eighteen months, it might be twoyears, but we want to make
certain that what we're learningisn't going to help us in the
(06:45):
past, but is going to help us inthe future. And so if you go
into the company and you've beenworking for a couple of years
and you're, I know, accountspayable or whatever narrow niche
you're working in that company,and you say, Hey, I want to get
promoted.
Well, to be promoted you can'tjust be aware of accounts
payable. You need to understanda little bit more than that. As
(07:08):
you go up in the organization,your area of responsibility or
knowledge gets broader. Youknow, the person who just gets
hired out of university and theyspend forty hours a week doing
one specific thing. Well, whenyou get promoted, you supervise
that job plus seven other onespecific thing jobs that you
didn't do yourself.
But we need to make certain thatwe're going to have the skills,
(07:29):
the knowledge to do that nextstep. And so when the company
says, oh, we need to promotesomebody into this next
supervisory level or whateverthe case may be, we've
demonstrated, A, we can do thejob we're doing ourselves right
now very well because they'renever going to promote somebody
who can't do their own job well.We can do our job well, and
(07:50):
because we've gone through thecertification process, because
we have this next level ofknowledge, we're the one that's
best equipped to move out ofjust our specific area and
supervise, be involved in otherareas as well. And so it's the
whole process of certificationsneed to be forward looking.
(08:12):
Yeah.
And not what I'm doing, and Iunderstand if you're going to be
in that position for a fewyears, you may need to do some
training, you may need to getsome certification at that
point, but in general, we wantto be looking at where do I want
to be in three years, two years?And what is the certification
that's required for that job?What is the knowledge that is
required for that job? And thenhow is it that I get that
(08:36):
knowledge? And it's not onlycertifications, part of it is
also being proactive at work.
Anytime there's a team orthey're putting together a group
to discuss something, be a partof it. Yeah. Don't just stay and
say, I'm going to do my job andthat's it. Well, you need to, we
talk, I think a lot of timespeople think of networking as
outside the organization. Ifyou're in a large enough
(08:56):
organization, there's anecessity to network inside the
organization so that the peoplewho make these decisions about
promotions and opportunitiesknow who you are.
And so anytime there's thatopportunity in the organization
to work with people from adifferent department or be
involved in some project that'slarger than just what you do
yourself every day, volunteer.That's your opportunity to
(09:20):
demonstrate you're capable ofdoing more than you're doing
right now.
Adam Larson (09:24):
Well, it also shows that you can work with a cross
functional team, that you canwork outside of your department,
and that's a big win foryourself in your growth, but
also showing the organization,Hey, you're willing to work with
other teams and you don't wantto stay in your silo because we
get stuck in a silo and it'shard to get out of it sometimes.
Brian Hock (09:41):
Well, and it's also when you started talking about,
you know, work with otherpeople, it's communication.
Yeah. And so many young careerpeople, when they're starting
their careers, I think fail torealize important communication
skills are. And that's in personcommunication skills, it's in a
report, it's in an email, justhow it is that you're able to
(10:04):
communicate what you know toother people. Because if you
know everything in the world,but you can't communicate it to
somebody else, it's useless.
And so, people, as they starttheir careers, need to take
every opportunity to practicecommunication skills, and that
starts, I mean, the importanceof communication skills starts
in the interview. And at yourfirst interview out of
(10:26):
university and twenty years intoyour career, every interview is,
in a sense, a test of yourcommunication skills.
Adam Larson (10:33):
Yeah, it really is. You know, what how does how does
continuing education tie intothis? Because, know, most
certifications like the CMA, youhave to get a certain amount of
continuing professionaleducation credits each year. How
does that tie in to continueyour knowledge? Because
obviously, you know, the theinformation you learn for a
certification is is set, youknow, and it's very difficult.
You know, they they only updateit every once in a while. But
(10:55):
things are constantly changing,so you have to keep up your
knowledge.
Brian Hock (10:58):
And that's what continuing education is. And if
you're working, if you have ajob, even if you don't have a
certification, you need to docontinuing education. It may not
have that name and we may notrecognize it as continuing
education, but if we just takethe last two years with AI, and
all of the different tools andeverything that's been about AI,
(11:20):
if you have not learned anythingabout it, you're not going to
have a job for very long.
Adam Larson (11:27):
Yeah.
Brian Hock (11:28):
I'm not saying you need to be able to program it
and you need to be able to writethe next ChatGPT yourself, but
these are tools that you need toknow how to use. And one of the
ways of looking at ChatGPT andalso the larger continuing
education is even to look atExcel. When I graduated thirty
years ago, on my CV, I put, Ihad word processing and
(11:50):
spreadsheet knowledge becausethat was kind of unusual. Not
everybody did. We didn't havecomputers in every classroom and
there was a computer lab at theuniversity and you had to
reserve time on it.
And so if you go back thirtyyears, at that point Excel may
not have even been Excel, itmight have been Lotus one, two,
(12:10):
three, whatever it was, butthose skills that you needed
back then were just formulas. Ifyou could add up a column with a
formula, you were ahead. Youwere, you were an advanced user.
Yeah. But even if we just lookat what's happened in Excel in
the past five years, the tenyears, the tools that it has,
the power that it has, you needto be able to use that.
(12:31):
And so if you're in an interviewand they say, What can you do in
Excel? And you say, I can add upa column, that's not going work.
You're not going to get thatjob. And so even as we just look
at technology, there's a needfor continuing education,
because you have to continue tolearn what technology is able to
do for you. And the same is truewith your accounting, your
finance, communication skills,all of that changes, and we need
(12:55):
to stay current with it.
Even if it's being aware of thelanguage, you're having lunch
with somebody and they saysomething. If we at least know
what it is that they're talkingabout and are able to make a
semi intelligent comment aboutit, that's important. Because if
you're talking to people at workand you're not aware of what's
(13:15):
being done in the profession,you're not aware of what's
happening with technology,you're not aware of what the
company itself is doing and howit's implementing these things,
you're not going to be therevery long. And so the nice thing
about a certification is itrequires that continuing
education. An even betterexample of the need for
continuing education, and thisisn't CMA, but tax.
(13:37):
You know, if you pass a taxexam, well, months later what
you studied on the tax exam isnot all correct anymore. Tax
codes change all the time. Andso if you're a tax person and
you don't do continuingeducation, you're not going have
any clients Because when yougive advice based on when you
passed the exam four years ago,everybody you talk to is going
(13:57):
to say, Oh, you know, I'm goingto find somebody who's passed
the exam more recently thanthat. And so, it's an absolute
fundamental part, and this iskind of forced upskilling for an
individual when you have acertification. You have to do it
in order to maintain thatcertification.
Adam Larson (14:16):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So I want to
circle back. You mentionedcommunication, how important
that is. You know, how do youprepare for like real world
communication challenges?Because you can read a book and
understand and take a test, butbeing able to communicate it
with others and be able tocommunicate those concepts is
not the easiest thing for everyperson.
And do you have any advice forfolks who are trying to improve
(14:38):
upon that? Practice.
Brian Hock (14:40):
And it's something that and I know this we don't
want to say we do this or but tosome extent it's practice in
front of a mirror. You know, ifyou're going to an interview
we'll start at the early stagesof your career, if you're going
to an interview, you know someof the questions they're going
to ask, or variations on a themeof what they're going to ask. So
(15:02):
you should have an idea of howyou want to answer that
question. You should have anidea of how you're going to
answer the question. What areyour strengths?
What are your weaknesses? Whatis something you struggle doing?
Where's a time you showedleadership opportunity? And so
practice and think about what isgoing to happen. I always say
anytime you send an email, thinkabout what question is this
(15:25):
person going to ask based off ofthis email, what are they going
to ask?
And why don't I just answer thatquestion now instead of make
them ask it and then I have toanswer again? And that's the
same thing when you give areport to somebody, when you go
and talk to your supervisor andthey're going to discuss the
project or whatever. Think, whatare the questions that they're
going to ask? What are thethings that I need to be
(15:47):
prepared? And then you canpractice a little bit.
You know, you have in mind,well, these are the three most
important things, this is whatwe need more resources for, this
is the person who's not doingwhat they need to be doing or
not getting us the information.But if we prepare and just think
about what might be the questionwe get, we're able to kind of
(16:08):
mentally put together an answerbefore we're sitting in the room
and the person is looking at usand asks us that question. You
know, mentioned earlierparticipate in whatever project
or team your company is puttingtogether. Practice or take that
opportunity to be the speaker.If you're at university and you
have a group project andsomebody needs to present it to
(16:29):
the class, be that person.
Raise your hand, say I want tobe that person. When there's any
opportunity to ask a question ofa speaker, to introduce a
speaker, do it. Take thatopportunity. It's better to mess
up, to forget the words whenyou're at university and you're
never going to see those peopleafter two more years than to do
(16:51):
that at work. And so whatever atwork, any opportunities to be
the speaker, to make thepresentation, do it.
And practice makes perfect, andthey say you need to have ten
thousand hours to become anexpert at something. Well, I
don't know that many people getto ten thousand hours of public
speaking, but you still need totake those opportunities because
without taking thoseopportunities, you won't
(17:13):
practice and there won't be anyimprovement. And so I know
that's kind of an easy answer,to do it more, but I think that
the problem is people who don'tlike to do it don't volunteer to
do it, and try to find everyopportunity not to do it. When
in reality, at the early stagesof your career, you need to make
certain you're making progressin that direction, at least,
(17:35):
because there is a point whereyou won't get a promotion
because you aren't able tocommunicate. Once your job
becomes outward facing, and youstart talking to the clients,
you start talking to yoursuppliers, you start talking to
the bank, when you startpresenting, representing your
company to people outside theorganization, if you can't speak
(17:56):
well, if you can't presentyourself and the organization
well, you're not going to getthat job because you're not able
to do that communication thatthe company wants.
And so, like just about anythingelse, practice, practice,
practice, and take everyopportunity you can to start
communicating.
Adam Larson (18:15):
Yeah. Well, and the more you practice, the more
you'll learn to be able to thinkon your feet and be able to
answer. So let's say you'vepracticed a bunch of questions
because you think those arequestions and somebody asks a
different question. It might beslightly related, but being able
to formulate an answer is notthe easiest thing. But the more
you practice, the more youunderstand, the more knowledge
you have, the more you can tapinto those things as you're
(18:36):
providing those answers andyou'll sound coherent.
Brian Hock (18:39):
And as you as you get that experience, there's
less time required to prepare.Yes. Because you've heard all
the questions. You've heard thequestions before. You know what
they are.
You've answered that question.As you said, thinking on your
feet, I think, is kind of anoverlooked ability to be able to
hear a conversation, havesomebody ask a question that
(19:01):
you're not expecting, and it'sjust kind of completely
unexpected. But being able totake a breath, pause for a
moment, sort through, you know,all these past conversations and
questions you've answered andfind something that's relevant,
that doesn't happenaccidentally. You look at people
and you say, wow, that's a greatspeaker, they were captivating,
(19:23):
I listened the whole time, itwas engaging. That didn't happen
accidentally.
That person, even if naturally,I mean, people naturally are
more outgoing or more happy todo that, But everybody you
listen to who you say, Wow, thatwas a really good speech, a
really good speaker, didn'thappen accidentally. They put in
(19:44):
the time and the effort and thepractice to be able to do what
it is that they're doing sowell.
Adam Larson (19:49):
Yeah, they do. Well, and also, don't want to
make people think by listeningto this, if you practice
practice, you'll always haveevery answer. It is okay to say,
You know what? Let me get backto you on that.
Brian Hock (20:00):
I cannot agree with that more. I think that one of
the best things you can say tohelp your career is to say, I
don't know. Now, I'm going toadd a word to that phrase, but
there's nothing worse, I think,than people who say they can do
something, or essentiallyexaggerate their abilities or
(20:21):
their experiences, becausepeople will find out that you
can't do it. And so when yousay, Yes, I can do that, or Yes,
I'll and you think you knoweverything, you don't. But I
said the phrase I don't know.
We need to change that because Idon't know, if somebody asks you
to do something and you say, Idon't know how to do that,
(20:42):
that's kind of the end of theconversation, and that's not
where we want the conversationto end because you just failed
that person. They asked you todo something, you said, I can't
do it, and that's the end. Butif we put one word at the end of
that, if we say, I don't knowhow to do that yet, but I'd like
to learn. I want to learn how todo that. Can you show me where?
(21:03):
Can you point me in the rightdirection? Is there a person I
should ask? If you acknowledge,I don't know how to do that, but
I'm going to learn for you. Idon't know the answer to that
question, but I'm going to findout. I don't know who the best
person to contact is yet, butI'm going to talk to some people
and I'm going to come back toyou and give you that answer.
And so it's a matter of beinghonest about what we know and
(21:25):
what we don't know, but thenthose things that we don't know,
saying, hey, I'm going to takeit on myself to learn that, to
find that out, to get thatinformation for you, whatever
the case may be. And so we'remanaging expectations and we're
also showing to that person, I'mgoing to help you out. I'm going
to take it on myself to learnthat information, to whatever it
(21:47):
is that we're trying to do, andget that to you. And that's a
great opportunity to show thepeople in your organization that
you're somebody they want towork with. That's the person I
want to work with because ifthey don't know it, they'll tell
me, and they're willing tolearn.
You know, those are the peopleyou want to work with.
Adam Larson (22:05):
Yeah. And it also shows that you're able that
you're willing to go above andbeyond what you already what
you're already doing. Thatthat's that's his volumes to the
people you're working with.
Brian Hock (22:14):
I I just kind of disconnected thought a little
bit, but people promoted. And sowhat we've been talking about
are really some of the thingsyou have to do to get promoted.
You have to be able tocommunicate, work on a team, and
all of those things. But one ofthe things that we forget about
if we want to get promoted isthere needs to be somebody to do
our job after we get promoted.And so part of working to get
(22:38):
promoted is essentiallypreparing your replacement.
I know people don't want to dothis a lot of times because why
would I train a person to do myjob so they fire me? Well, we're
not trying to get fired out ofthis, but when that job comes
up, that promotion comes up, Iwant whoever is making that
decision to look and say, Wow,Brian does a great job. Brian
(23:01):
would be wonderful in thisposition. And, you know, I was
talking to Brian, he's actuallytaken the time to make certain
there's somebody who's learninghis job already, so we can
promote Brian and Adam's justgoing to slide nicely in his
place and be ready to take overfor Brian. So we're not even
going to have a problemreplacing Brian.
And so we always kind of thinkup the organizational chart for
(23:25):
us, and that's what we want todo, But at the same time, we
need to be working to keep thepeople that are going to replace
us able to replace us. And sowe're learning, and at the same
time, we need to be teaching sothat we're able to be promoted
because there's somebody who'sable to slide into our position
as we go up the ladder.
Adam Larson (23:44):
Yeah, I think it was John Maxwell famously says,
you know, in his leadershipbooks that great leaders are the
ones who raise up everyonearound them. So, when they go
up, everybody around them raisesup as well. I, you know, it's a
it's it's again, it's starts notgetting stuck in our silos and
actually broadening out beyondwhat we're already doing.
Brian Hock (24:02):
Well, it's it's one of those things too. You see all
the the posts on LinkedIn andabout teamwork and and things
like that. And you your success,you will be more successful if
your success helps other peoplesucceed as But if your whole
goal is, I'm going to getpromoted, if it's all about you,
that may work up to a certainpoint in the organization, but
(24:24):
if it's I'm going to help theorganization be better, and I'm
going to help the people aroundme be better, and the other
thing too is how you want tohire people, you want to work
with people smarter than you.And that's very difficult
because we're nervous andanxious that we're not going to
be the smartest person in theroom, but as you go up in the
(24:45):
organization, you really wantthe people around you to be the
smartest in their areas, Andthat requires a lot of personal,
kind of, don't know, selfcontrol is the right word, but
comfort in who you are to say, Idon't know the answer to that. I
need to get somebody who's anexpert to provide the guidance
and the counsel that we need.
(25:06):
But again, it's not just mesucceeding. We need to help the
whole organization succeed atthe same time.
Adam Larson (25:14):
Yeah. So, we've definitely we've laid out a
number of reasons, you know, inthe importance of applying what
you've learned incertifications, you know, and
somebody may be listening tothis and thinking, you know, how
like, I'm not I'm not reallysure if a certification is right
for me. And what would you sayto them, you know, if they they
listen to this wholeconversation and they're still
saying that?
Brian Hock (25:35):
Well, I don't necessarily think that for every
person at every time in theircareer, certification is the
answer to what they need. I knowI've talked to people that once
they get one certification, theywant to get another one and then
another one. And I say, timeout. Your career is not
collecting certifications. Yourcareer is performing a job in
(25:56):
accounting, finance, whatever itis.
And so at times you need to notstudy for a certification, but
actually do what it is thatyou've learned how to do and to
do your job well. But I thinkthe way I look at a
certification is that it's avery structured way to learn
what you need to learn for acertain job, or a certain role,
or a certain responsibility. Andsure, we can go out into YouTube
(26:22):
and LinkedIn Learning andwhatever, all the different
courses, and we can learn fromdifferent places all of the
topics that are on an exam. Imean, it may take longer and
it's not terribly efficient, butone of the things that a
certification does is it veryquickly communicates to somebody
else what we know. The example Igive is university.
(26:42):
You went to a university andmaybe your university is the
best university in the region,in the country, whatever the
case is, but you go to the nextcountry, the next part of the
world, nobody's ever heard ofyour university. Nobody knows if
it was a good university, baduniversity, an actual
university, or you just printedout a fancy looking diploma.
Nobody knows. But if you say I'ma CMA, everybody can find out
(27:04):
what you know. There's astandardized syllabus, there's a
pass rate, there's a pass mark,and anybody can find out what
you know.
And so one of the questions weget a lot is, will a
certification guarantee that Iget a job? Well, first of all,
no it won't, because you stillhave to go through an interview,
and if you show up late for theinterview, you're rude to the
person interviewing you, itdoesn't matter how many
(27:25):
certifications you have. Butalso, will a certification help
me get a job is the wrongquestion. Yes, it will help you
get a job because it will helpyou get the interview. You know,
you meet the requirements, theperson's looking for whatever
the case may be.
But ultimately the question wewant to ask about our
certification is, will it helpme keep my job and do my job
(27:45):
well and get promoted? Whichcomes back to, you want the
certification to give you theskills to do the job you're
doing, or the job you want to bedoing, to prepare for that. And
so when somebody's looking andtrying to decide should they get
a certification, they need toask, the job that I have, do I
have the skills I need to do it?The job that I want to be at in
(28:06):
two years, do I have the skills,the knowledge that I need to do
that job in two years? And ifthe answer to that is no, well
you need to solve that problem.
There's a gap between where youare and where you need to be.
And in a lot of cases, thatcertification is the easiest way
to solve that gap. It's an easyway to do it, it's a structured
(28:27):
way to do it, and then afteryou've done it, you can say, I'm
a CMA. I know the skills thatare needed for this job. If you
go to an interview and they say,Well, this job is in the
accounting function, what do youknow about accounting?
And you say, I'm a CMA. Andyou'd say, More than that, but
you've proven the point, you'vechecked that box. If you say,
(28:48):
Well, I've done 73 onlinecourses, and the person, they
don't know what course, who wasthe person, what were the
topics, maybe you did the samecourse 73 times from 73
different people. And socertifications are that very
direct, standard way ofdemonstrating what it is that
you know. And now, as you gothrough your career, as I said
(29:10):
earlier, you're going to havedifferent certifications.
And so if you take youruniversity group, and there's 30
of you, it may be that 20 of youdid CMA, but if you take those
people fifteen years later, all20 of them did some different
certification. Because CMA isthat good foundational
(29:31):
certification, but after fiveyears and some of you are in
treasury management, some of youare in corporate finance,
somebody's in internal audit,somebody's in logistics,
whatever, there are differentcertifications for each of those
specialties. So certificationshelp us do our job. They help us
do our job well. And there aretimes when we need a
(29:54):
certification to take that nextstep in our career.
And there are also times we justneed to say, okay, I'm going to
focus on work and I'm going todo my work better than anybody's
ever done it in this position.I'm going to get the promotion
and then I'm going to take thatnext certification to help me
get the next promotion afterthat.
Adam Larson (30:11):
Wow. Well, Brian, I think that's a great way to sum
things up. I really appreciateyou coming back on the podcast,
and we love having you This
Announcer (30:20):
has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you
with the latest perspectives ofthought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
Welcome back to Count Me In. Today, I'm excited
to welcome back Brian Hock,founder and CEO of Hock
International. If you caught ourlast episode together, you know
Brian's a leading voice inprofessional certifications.
This time, we're taking things astep further, exploring not just
the value of certifications likethe CMA, but why applying what
you've learned is crucial forcareer growth. Brian shares
(00:42):
candid insight into howcertifications can and should
align with your current role andfuture ambitions, emphasizing
that collecting credentialsisn't enough if you're not using
them to deliver results on thejob.
We also talk about howcontinuous learning, expanding
communication skills, andproactive networking are key
drivers in securing promotionsand moving up the organizational
ladder. So whether you're justgetting your foot in the door or
(01:04):
aiming your next big careermove, Brian's advice will help
you make the most of hard earnedknowledge and set yourself apart
for long term success. Well,Brian, we're really excited to
have you back on Count Me In.Last time you were here, we
talked about the importance ofcertifications. So today we're
(01:24):
going to start talking aboutcertifications, kind of just the
beginning.
So maybe you can elaborate alittle bit why it's crucial to
apply what they've learnedrather than just attaining the
certification.
Brian Hock (01:34):
Well, thanks, Adam. It's great to be back and
continue the discussion reallythat we had last time. And I
think when we talk about thevalue of certifications, there's
absolutely great value incertifications and what it does
for a person in their career.But we have to remember that
ultimately we have to do ourjob, and we have to do our job
(01:55):
well. You can have all thecertifications in the world, but
if you can't show up for workand actually do what your
company is expecting you to do,you're not going have a real
long time of employment there.
And so what we're looking atwith the certification is
essentially making certain thatwhat we learn in the
certification lines up with whatit is that we're doing at work.
(02:16):
And that knowledge, the tools,the skills that we get from the
certification are going to helpus do what it is that we're
supposed to do at work. And soit's that knowledge that
ultimately is going to help usdo our job well, which is
ultimately what's going to leadto the promotion and the other
opportunities and having thosegrowth opportunities as we go
(02:37):
through our career.
Adam Larson (02:39):
So when we look at certifications like the CMA, how
do those how do thesecertifications help a
professional in their day to dayjob within the organization?
Brian Hock (02:47):
Well, they help if they're lined up with what it is
that the person is doing. So Ithink when we look at
certifications, there's kind ofI mean, we can categorize them
in many different ways, but I'mgoing to put them into two
categories. One is kind of amore general foundational
certification, and then theothers are very specific later
in your career when you become aspecialist certifications. And
(03:09):
there are more certificationsthan we know about, because if
you get into corporate finance,there's certifications that are
very specific. If you're intreasury management, there's
certifications that are veryspecific.
And so as you go through yourcareer and you become a
specialist, you get thatin-depth knowledge in a topic,
there are probablycertifications that are very
(03:29):
closely aligned to thatspecialty knowledge or specialty
service that you're providing.But with CMA, this is what I
would call a more of a generalcertification in that it covers
the skills that you need inaccounting and finance. If
you're being hired to be aspecific treasury management
person for a large organization,CMA's probably not giving you
(03:50):
the knowledge that you need forthat specific job. But if you
take that person and go back intheir career ten years, when
they were starting in thefinance function, that's where
those kind of general skillsthat come in CMA. And so what
CMA does, and I think it does itprobably better than any
certification out there, is thatit provides accounting and
(04:12):
finance reality based skills.
What it is that an accountingprofessional, a finance
professional is going to beexpected to do in the first
handful of years of theircareer. And with that knowledge,
they're able to do their job,but also understand how that
(04:33):
individual job fits into theorganization as a whole. You
know, you write a report andthat report goes somewhere, and
the person you send that reportto is making a decision. They're
taking your information andcombining it with the
information that three otherpeople send them and putting
that into another report thatgoes on. And if we understand
what it is that is being donewith the information we're
(04:55):
creating, we may be able topresent it in a slightly better
way for the person who's usingit.
We may realize that, oh, there'ssome more information that we
should include in this. This hasmost of the information that's
needed, but with all the datathat companies are collecting
these days, it may be thatthere's information available
that wasn't two years ago whenthis form was created or this
(05:17):
report was created. So if wehave that knowledge, not only
about our specific job, but whatthe company is doing, how our
job fits into what the companyis doing, we're able to do our
job better. We're able to helpour customer, even if it's an
internal customer, the personwho's using the work that we do,
(05:37):
we're going to help them dotheir job better. And that's how
we get promoted.
That's how we get thoseopportunities when we perform
not just our task, but weunderstand what that task is to
the larger organization.
Adam Larson (05:51):
Well, and that's pertinent. Like you said, you
want to keep your job ratherthan just get one, right? So
there's so many elements thatyou have to do. And, you know,
and when you're just startingout, you're kind of you're not
sure of the landscape of whatyour roles and responsibilities
are going to be, you know? Sowhat would you what would you
say to somebody who is, youknow, they've been in their job
for a little bit?
They see the CMA as a as a placeto get a bunch of knowledge. It
(06:13):
may not necessarily line upperfectly, but they see, you
know, is that still is thatstill a way for them to kind of
expand their knowledge andpossibly get promoted as well?
Brian Hock (06:22):
Absolutely. I think with certifications, we need to
make certain that when we choosea certification, we're not
looking at what we do today, butwe look at what our next step
is. And part of that is becauseit's going to take time to get
the certification. Now, it mightbe six months, it might be
eighteen months, it might be twoyears, but we want to make
certain that what we're learningisn't going to help us in the
(06:45):
past, but is going to help us inthe future. And so if you go
into the company and you've beenworking for a couple of years
and you're, I know, accountspayable or whatever narrow niche
you're working in that company,and you say, Hey, I want to get
promoted.
Well, to be promoted you can'tjust be aware of accounts
payable. You need to understanda little bit more than that. As
(07:08):
you go up in the organization,your area of responsibility or
knowledge gets broader. Youknow, the person who just gets
hired out of university and theyspend forty hours a week doing
one specific thing. Well, whenyou get promoted, you supervise
that job plus seven other onespecific thing jobs that you
didn't do yourself.
But we need to make certain thatwe're going to have the skills,
(07:29):
the knowledge to do that nextstep. And so when the company
says, oh, we need to promotesomebody into this next
supervisory level or whateverthe case may be, we've
demonstrated, A, we can do thejob we're doing ourselves right
now very well because they'renever going to promote somebody
who can't do their own job well.We can do our job well, and
(07:50):
because we've gone through thecertification process, because
we have this next level ofknowledge, we're the one that's
best equipped to move out ofjust our specific area and
supervise, be involved in otherareas as well. And so it's the
whole process of certificationsneed to be forward looking.
(08:12):
Yeah.
And not what I'm doing, and Iunderstand if you're going to be
in that position for a fewyears, you may need to do some
training, you may need to getsome certification at that
point, but in general, we wantto be looking at where do I want
to be in three years, two years?And what is the certification
that's required for that job?What is the knowledge that is
required for that job? And thenhow is it that I get that
(08:36):
knowledge? And it's not onlycertifications, part of it is
also being proactive at work.
Anytime there's a team orthey're putting together a group
to discuss something, be a partof it. Yeah. Don't just stay and
say, I'm going to do my job andthat's it. Well, you need to, we
talk, I think a lot of timespeople think of networking as
outside the organization. Ifyou're in a large enough
(08:56):
organization, there's anecessity to network inside the
organization so that the peoplewho make these decisions about
promotions and opportunitiesknow who you are.
And so anytime there's thatopportunity in the organization
to work with people from adifferent department or be
involved in some project that'slarger than just what you do
yourself every day, volunteer.That's your opportunity to
(09:20):
demonstrate you're capable ofdoing more than you're doing
right now.
Adam Larson (09:24):
Well, it also shows that you can work with a cross
functional team, that you canwork outside of your department,
and that's a big win foryourself in your growth, but
also showing the organization,Hey, you're willing to work with
other teams and you don't wantto stay in your silo because we
get stuck in a silo and it'shard to get out of it sometimes.
Brian Hock (09:41):
Well, and it's also when you started talking about,
you know, work with otherpeople, it's communication.
Yeah. And so many young careerpeople, when they're starting
their careers, I think fail torealize important communication
skills are. And that's in personcommunication skills, it's in a
report, it's in an email, justhow it is that you're able to
(10:04):
communicate what you know toother people. Because if you
know everything in the world,but you can't communicate it to
somebody else, it's useless.
And so, people, as they starttheir careers, need to take
every opportunity to practicecommunication skills, and that
starts, I mean, the importanceof communication skills starts
in the interview. And at yourfirst interview out of
(10:26):
university and twenty years intoyour career, every interview is,
in a sense, a test of yourcommunication skills.
Adam Larson (10:33):
Yeah, it really is. You know, what how does how does
continuing education tie intothis? Because, know, most
certifications like the CMA, youhave to get a certain amount of
continuing professionaleducation credits each year. How
does that tie in to continueyour knowledge? Because
obviously, you know, the theinformation you learn for a
certification is is set, youknow, and it's very difficult.
You know, they they only updateit every once in a while. But
(10:55):
things are constantly changing,so you have to keep up your
knowledge.
Brian Hock (10:58):
And that's what continuing education is. And if
you're working, if you have ajob, even if you don't have a
certification, you need to docontinuing education. It may not
have that name and we may notrecognize it as continuing
education, but if we just takethe last two years with AI, and
all of the different tools andeverything that's been about AI,
(11:20):
if you have not learned anythingabout it, you're not going to
have a job for very long.
Adam Larson (11:27):
Yeah.
Brian Hock (11:28):
I'm not saying you need to be able to program it
and you need to be able to writethe next ChatGPT yourself, but
these are tools that you need toknow how to use. And one of the
ways of looking at ChatGPT andalso the larger continuing
education is even to look atExcel. When I graduated thirty
years ago, on my CV, I put, Ihad word processing and
(11:50):
spreadsheet knowledge becausethat was kind of unusual. Not
everybody did. We didn't havecomputers in every classroom and
there was a computer lab at theuniversity and you had to
reserve time on it.
And so if you go back thirtyyears, at that point Excel may
not have even been Excel, itmight have been Lotus one, two,
(12:10):
three, whatever it was, butthose skills that you needed
back then were just formulas. Ifyou could add up a column with a
formula, you were ahead. Youwere, you were an advanced user.
Yeah. But even if we just lookat what's happened in Excel in
the past five years, the tenyears, the tools that it has,
the power that it has, you needto be able to use that.
(12:31):
And so if you're in an interviewand they say, What can you do in
Excel? And you say, I can add upa column, that's not going work.
You're not going to get thatjob. And so even as we just look
at technology, there's a needfor continuing education,
because you have to continue tolearn what technology is able to
do for you. And the same is truewith your accounting, your
finance, communication skills,all of that changes, and we need
(12:55):
to stay current with it.
Even if it's being aware of thelanguage, you're having lunch
with somebody and they saysomething. If we at least know
what it is that they're talkingabout and are able to make a
semi intelligent comment aboutit, that's important. Because if
you're talking to people at workand you're not aware of what's
(13:15):
being done in the profession,you're not aware of what's
happening with technology,you're not aware of what the
company itself is doing and howit's implementing these things,
you're not going to be therevery long. And so the nice thing
about a certification is itrequires that continuing
education. An even betterexample of the need for
continuing education, and thisisn't CMA, but tax.
(13:37):
You know, if you pass a taxexam, well, months later what
you studied on the tax exam isnot all correct anymore. Tax
codes change all the time. Andso if you're a tax person and
you don't do continuingeducation, you're not going have
any clients Because when yougive advice based on when you
passed the exam four years ago,everybody you talk to is going
(13:57):
to say, Oh, you know, I'm goingto find somebody who's passed
the exam more recently thanthat. And so, it's an absolute
fundamental part, and this iskind of forced upskilling for an
individual when you have acertification. You have to do it
in order to maintain thatcertification.
Adam Larson (14:16):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So I want to
circle back. You mentionedcommunication, how important
that is. You know, how do youprepare for like real world
communication challenges?Because you can read a book and
understand and take a test, butbeing able to communicate it
with others and be able tocommunicate those concepts is
not the easiest thing for everyperson.
And do you have any advice forfolks who are trying to improve
(14:38):
upon that? Practice.
Brian Hock (14:40):
And it's something that and I know this we don't
want to say we do this or but tosome extent it's practice in
front of a mirror. You know, ifyou're going to an interview
we'll start at the early stagesof your career, if you're going
to an interview, you know someof the questions they're going
to ask, or variations on a themeof what they're going to ask. So
(15:02):
you should have an idea of howyou want to answer that
question. You should have anidea of how you're going to
answer the question. What areyour strengths?
What are your weaknesses? Whatis something you struggle doing?
Where's a time you showedleadership opportunity? And so
practice and think about what isgoing to happen. I always say
anytime you send an email, thinkabout what question is this
(15:25):
person going to ask based off ofthis email, what are they going
to ask?
And why don't I just answer thatquestion now instead of make
them ask it and then I have toanswer again? And that's the
same thing when you give areport to somebody, when you go
and talk to your supervisor andthey're going to discuss the
project or whatever. Think, whatare the questions that they're
going to ask? What are thethings that I need to be
(15:47):
prepared? And then you canpractice a little bit.
You know, you have in mind,well, these are the three most
important things, this is whatwe need more resources for, this
is the person who's not doingwhat they need to be doing or
not getting us the information.But if we prepare and just think
about what might be the questionwe get, we're able to kind of
(16:08):
mentally put together an answerbefore we're sitting in the room
and the person is looking at usand asks us that question. You
know, mentioned earlierparticipate in whatever project
or team your company is puttingtogether. Practice or take that
opportunity to be the speaker.If you're at university and you
have a group project andsomebody needs to present it to
(16:29):
the class, be that person.
Raise your hand, say I want tobe that person. When there's any
opportunity to ask a question ofa speaker, to introduce a
speaker, do it. Take thatopportunity. It's better to mess
up, to forget the words whenyou're at university and you're
never going to see those peopleafter two more years than to do
(16:51):
that at work. And so whatever atwork, any opportunities to be
the speaker, to make thepresentation, do it.
And practice makes perfect, andthey say you need to have ten
thousand hours to become anexpert at something. Well, I
don't know that many people getto ten thousand hours of public
speaking, but you still need totake those opportunities because
without taking thoseopportunities, you won't
(17:13):
practice and there won't be anyimprovement. And so I know
that's kind of an easy answer,to do it more, but I think that
the problem is people who don'tlike to do it don't volunteer to
do it, and try to find everyopportunity not to do it. When
in reality, at the early stagesof your career, you need to make
certain you're making progressin that direction, at least,
(17:35):
because there is a point whereyou won't get a promotion
because you aren't able tocommunicate. Once your job
becomes outward facing, and youstart talking to the clients,
you start talking to yoursuppliers, you start talking to
the bank, when you startpresenting, representing your
company to people outside theorganization, if you can't speak
(17:56):
well, if you can't presentyourself and the organization
well, you're not going to getthat job because you're not able
to do that communication thatthe company wants.
And so, like just about anythingelse, practice, practice,
practice, and take everyopportunity you can to start
communicating.
Adam Larson (18:15):
Yeah. Well, and the more you practice, the more
you'll learn to be able to thinkon your feet and be able to
answer. So let's say you'vepracticed a bunch of questions
because you think those arequestions and somebody asks a
different question. It might beslightly related, but being able
to formulate an answer is notthe easiest thing. But the more
you practice, the more youunderstand, the more knowledge
you have, the more you can tapinto those things as you're
(18:36):
providing those answers andyou'll sound coherent.
Brian Hock (18:39):
And as you as you get that experience, there's
less time required to prepare.Yes. Because you've heard all
the questions. You've heard thequestions before. You know what
they are.
You've answered that question.As you said, thinking on your
feet, I think, is kind of anoverlooked ability to be able to
hear a conversation, havesomebody ask a question that
(19:01):
you're not expecting, and it'sjust kind of completely
unexpected. But being able totake a breath, pause for a
moment, sort through, you know,all these past conversations and
questions you've answered andfind something that's relevant,
that doesn't happenaccidentally. You look at people
and you say, wow, that's a greatspeaker, they were captivating,
(19:23):
I listened the whole time, itwas engaging. That didn't happen
accidentally.
That person, even if naturally,I mean, people naturally are
more outgoing or more happy todo that, But everybody you
listen to who you say, Wow, thatwas a really good speech, a
really good speaker, didn'thappen accidentally. They put in
(19:44):
the time and the effort and thepractice to be able to do what
it is that they're doing sowell.
Adam Larson (19:49):
Yeah, they do. Well, and also, don't want to
make people think by listeningto this, if you practice
practice, you'll always haveevery answer. It is okay to say,
You know what? Let me get backto you on that.
Brian Hock (20:00):
I cannot agree with that more. I think that one of
the best things you can say tohelp your career is to say, I
don't know. Now, I'm going toadd a word to that phrase, but
there's nothing worse, I think,than people who say they can do
something, or essentiallyexaggerate their abilities or
(20:21):
their experiences, becausepeople will find out that you
can't do it. And so when yousay, Yes, I can do that, or Yes,
I'll and you think you knoweverything, you don't. But I
said the phrase I don't know.
We need to change that because Idon't know, if somebody asks you
to do something and you say, Idon't know how to do that,
(20:42):
that's kind of the end of theconversation, and that's not
where we want the conversationto end because you just failed
that person. They asked you todo something, you said, I can't
do it, and that's the end. Butif we put one word at the end of
that, if we say, I don't knowhow to do that yet, but I'd like
to learn. I want to learn how todo that. Can you show me where?
(21:03):
Can you point me in the rightdirection? Is there a person I
should ask? If you acknowledge,I don't know how to do that, but
I'm going to learn for you. Idon't know the answer to that
question, but I'm going to findout. I don't know who the best
person to contact is yet, butI'm going to talk to some people
and I'm going to come back toyou and give you that answer.
And so it's a matter of beinghonest about what we know and
(21:25):
what we don't know, but thenthose things that we don't know,
saying, hey, I'm going to takeit on myself to learn that, to
find that out, to get thatinformation for you, whatever
the case may be. And so we'remanaging expectations and we're
also showing to that person, I'mgoing to help you out. I'm going
to take it on myself to learnthat information, to whatever it
(21:47):
is that we're trying to do, andget that to you. And that's a
great opportunity to show thepeople in your organization that
you're somebody they want towork with. That's the person I
want to work with because ifthey don't know it, they'll tell
me, and they're willing tolearn.
You know, those are the peopleyou want to work with.
Adam Larson (22:05):
Yeah. And it also shows that you're able that
you're willing to go above andbeyond what you already what
you're already doing. Thatthat's that's his volumes to the
people you're working with.
Brian Hock (22:14):
I I just kind of disconnected thought a little
bit, but people promoted. And sowhat we've been talking about
are really some of the thingsyou have to do to get promoted.
You have to be able tocommunicate, work on a team, and
all of those things. But one ofthe things that we forget about
if we want to get promoted isthere needs to be somebody to do
our job after we get promoted.And so part of working to get
(22:38):
promoted is essentiallypreparing your replacement.
I know people don't want to dothis a lot of times because why
would I train a person to do myjob so they fire me? Well, we're
not trying to get fired out ofthis, but when that job comes
up, that promotion comes up, Iwant whoever is making that
decision to look and say, Wow,Brian does a great job. Brian
(23:01):
would be wonderful in thisposition. And, you know, I was
talking to Brian, he's actuallytaken the time to make certain
there's somebody who's learninghis job already, so we can
promote Brian and Adam's justgoing to slide nicely in his
place and be ready to take overfor Brian. So we're not even
going to have a problemreplacing Brian.
And so we always kind of thinkup the organizational chart for
(23:25):
us, and that's what we want todo, But at the same time, we
need to be working to keep thepeople that are going to replace
us able to replace us. And sowe're learning, and at the same
time, we need to be teaching sothat we're able to be promoted
because there's somebody who'sable to slide into our position
as we go up the ladder.
Adam Larson (23:44):
Yeah, I think it was John Maxwell famously says,
you know, in his leadershipbooks that great leaders are the
ones who raise up everyonearound them. So, when they go
up, everybody around them raisesup as well. I, you know, it's a
it's it's again, it's starts notgetting stuck in our silos and
actually broadening out beyondwhat we're already doing.
Brian Hock (24:02):
Well, it's it's one of those things too. You see all
the the posts on LinkedIn andabout teamwork and and things
like that. And you your success,you will be more successful if
your success helps other peoplesucceed as But if your whole
goal is, I'm going to getpromoted, if it's all about you,
that may work up to a certainpoint in the organization, but
(24:24):
if it's I'm going to help theorganization be better, and I'm
going to help the people aroundme be better, and the other
thing too is how you want tohire people, you want to work
with people smarter than you.And that's very difficult
because we're nervous andanxious that we're not going to
be the smartest person in theroom, but as you go up in the
(24:45):
organization, you really wantthe people around you to be the
smartest in their areas, Andthat requires a lot of personal,
kind of, don't know, selfcontrol is the right word, but
comfort in who you are to say, Idon't know the answer to that. I
need to get somebody who's anexpert to provide the guidance
and the counsel that we need.
(25:06):
But again, it's not just mesucceeding. We need to help the
whole organization succeed atthe same time.
Adam Larson (25:14):
Yeah. So, we've definitely we've laid out a
number of reasons, you know, inthe importance of applying what
you've learned incertifications, you know, and
somebody may be listening tothis and thinking, you know, how
like, I'm not I'm not reallysure if a certification is right
for me. And what would you sayto them, you know, if they they
listen to this wholeconversation and they're still
saying that?
Brian Hock (25:35):
Well, I don't necessarily think that for every
person at every time in theircareer, certification is the
answer to what they need. I knowI've talked to people that once
they get one certification, theywant to get another one and then
another one. And I say, timeout. Your career is not
collecting certifications. Yourcareer is performing a job in
(25:56):
accounting, finance, whatever itis.
And so at times you need to notstudy for a certification, but
actually do what it is thatyou've learned how to do and to
do your job well. But I thinkthe way I look at a
certification is that it's avery structured way to learn
what you need to learn for acertain job, or a certain role,
or a certain responsibility. Andsure, we can go out into YouTube
(26:22):
and LinkedIn Learning andwhatever, all the different
courses, and we can learn fromdifferent places all of the
topics that are on an exam. Imean, it may take longer and
it's not terribly efficient, butone of the things that a
certification does is it veryquickly communicates to somebody
else what we know. The example Igive is university.
(26:42):
You went to a university andmaybe your university is the
best university in the region,in the country, whatever the
case is, but you go to the nextcountry, the next part of the
world, nobody's ever heard ofyour university. Nobody knows if
it was a good university, baduniversity, an actual
university, or you just printedout a fancy looking diploma.
Nobody knows. But if you say I'ma CMA, everybody can find out
(27:04):
what you know. There's astandardized syllabus, there's a
pass rate, there's a pass mark,and anybody can find out what
you know.
And so one of the questions weget a lot is, will a
certification guarantee that Iget a job? Well, first of all,
no it won't, because you stillhave to go through an interview,
and if you show up late for theinterview, you're rude to the
person interviewing you, itdoesn't matter how many
(27:25):
certifications you have. Butalso, will a certification help
me get a job is the wrongquestion. Yes, it will help you
get a job because it will helpyou get the interview. You know,
you meet the requirements, theperson's looking for whatever
the case may be.
But ultimately the question wewant to ask about our
certification is, will it helpme keep my job and do my job
(27:45):
well and get promoted? Whichcomes back to, you want the
certification to give you theskills to do the job you're
doing, or the job you want to bedoing, to prepare for that. And
so when somebody's looking andtrying to decide should they get
a certification, they need toask, the job that I have, do I
have the skills I need to do it?The job that I want to be at in
(28:06):
two years, do I have the skills,the knowledge that I need to do
that job in two years? And ifthe answer to that is no, well
you need to solve that problem.
There's a gap between where youare and where you need to be.
And in a lot of cases, thatcertification is the easiest way
to solve that gap. It's an easyway to do it, it's a structured
(28:27):
way to do it, and then afteryou've done it, you can say, I'm
a CMA. I know the skills thatare needed for this job. If you
go to an interview and they say,Well, this job is in the
accounting function, what do youknow about accounting?
And you say, I'm a CMA. Andyou'd say, More than that, but
you've proven the point, you'vechecked that box. If you say,
(28:48):
Well, I've done 73 onlinecourses, and the person, they
don't know what course, who wasthe person, what were the
topics, maybe you did the samecourse 73 times from 73
different people. And socertifications are that very
direct, standard way ofdemonstrating what it is that
you know. And now, as you gothrough your career, as I said
(29:10):
earlier, you're going to havedifferent certifications.
And so if you take youruniversity group, and there's 30
of you, it may be that 20 of youdid CMA, but if you take those
people fifteen years later, all20 of them did some different
certification. Because CMA isthat good foundational
(29:31):
certification, but after fiveyears and some of you are in
treasury management, some of youare in corporate finance,
somebody's in internal audit,somebody's in logistics,
whatever, there are differentcertifications for each of those
specialties. So certificationshelp us do our job. They help us
do our job well. And there aretimes when we need a
(29:54):
certification to take that nextstep in our career.
And there are also times we justneed to say, okay, I'm going to
focus on work and I'm going todo my work better than anybody's
ever done it in this position.I'm going to get the promotion
and then I'm going to take thatnext certification to help me
get the next promotion afterthat.
Adam Larson (30:11):
Wow. Well, Brian, I think that's a great way to sum
things up. I really appreciateyou coming back on the podcast,
and we love having you This
Announcer (30:20):
has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you
with the latest perspectives ofthought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
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