Looking for a fresh take on ethics in the business world? In this insightful episode of Count Me In, host Adam Larson sits down with acclaimed professors and Curt Verschoor Feature of the Year authors Douglas Boyle, Daniel Haggerty, and Dana Hermanson. The trio brings their unique expertise—and plenty of real-world wisdom—to a lively conversation about what “virtue” really means in accounting, finance, and leadership.
Daniel traces the roots of virtue all the way from Greek philosophy to modern business, showing why courage, strength, and excellence matter just as much today. Doug and Dana share practical examples from their teaching and research, exploring why business education often misses the mark on building character—and how professionals at any stage can start making ethical choices that go beyond simply following rules.
Tune in for a thought-provoking, accessible discussion that will have you rethinking what it truly means to lead with integrity.
Sponsor:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adam Larson (00:21):
Welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson,
today we're bringing you a trulythought provoking conversation
with three outstanding guests,Douglas Boyle, Daniel Hagerty,
and Dana Hermanson. All threeare respected professors and
authors of the Kurt for surefeature of the year, Aristotle
and Building Virtue to FightFraud. In this episode, we dig
deep into the concept of virtue,what it really means, where it
(00:44):
comes from and why it mattersfor professionals in business
today.
From the philosophical roots ofarte in the ancient Greek to
practical steps for buildingvirtuous organizations in the
modern workplace, our guestsexplore how excellence, courage,
and human flourishing can becomethe foundation for ethical
decision making and leadership.You'll hear why virtue often
goes missing in businesseducation and professional
(01:05):
development, and what we can doabout it. Whether you're a
student, a working professional,or a leader looking to create a
more ethical and effectiveculture, this episode practical
insights you can put into actionright away. Let's get started.
Well, Daniel, Dana, and Doug, I'm so excited to have
(01:27):
you on. We're gonna be talkingabout your award winning article
that's out. Please look at thelink in the description if you
wanna read that article beforeyou listen to this conversation.
But I figured we could start ina place where you can give us a
bit of a background on theongoing issue of fraud,
especially in accounting andfinance.
Dana Hermanson (01:42):
Sure. So fraud remains a major societal issue,
and it's fundamentally a peopleissue. You know, the number one
cause of fraud, as my co authorDavid Wolf always says, is
people. So as long as you've gotpeople in any system, you're
going to see somebody dosomething crazy. And the cost of
this issue remains high.
ACFE estimates it's about 5% ofrevenues for the typical
(02:05):
organization. So you extrapolatethat out globally, and it's a
multi trillion dollar problem.We've got some unique things
going on in the fraud area rightnow. One is the continuing arms
race between the perpetratorsand the fraud prevention folks.
For example, AI, I think hasgreat potential for mitigating
fraud, detecting fraud, but AIis also a very useful tool for
(02:29):
committing fraud with fakevoice, fake video, fake
documents.
From an accounting fraudperspective, we continue to deal
with the fundamental issue thatwe get the financial statements
from management, who knows themost about the company. But
management has the ability, ifthey want to, to exploit their
information advantage overothers. So that's why we have
(02:49):
auditors and all the othercontrols in place. So we've got
an issue that has attractedattention for decades. I think
we have made some progress inaddressing the fraud issue, but
it's still a significantsocietal issue because people
are at the heart of the issue.
Adam Larson (03:05):
So your article specifically focused on virtue.
And so I figured we could startoff by defining virtue,
especially in the context ofbusiness in excess and
professional conduct, you know,because it's a word that is not
often used in a businesscontext.
Daniel Haggerty (03:20):
So to understand what we mean by
virtue and how we use it in thearticle, I think it's really
important to sort of get to thephilosophical roots of this word
that gets translated from Greekinto Latin into English as
virtue. So the original Greekword was Arite, and Arite
referred to the qualities ofexcellence in warfare. Right?
(03:44):
The word Arite derives from theGreek god Ares, the god of war.
So the original meaning of this,you know, Arite that gets
rendered ultimately into Englishas virtue was in no way a soft
quality.
It was referring to the kind ofcourage and even ferocity and
strength that was necessary foran effective soldier in battle.
(04:07):
But in the hands of thephilosophers and particularly
Plato and Aristotle, theybroadened the concept. They
said, okay, well, you know,understanding what it means to
be an excellent soldier isimportant, but we want to try to
understand more broadly, whatdoes it mean to be an excellent
human being, right? So what arethe erratic qualities that is,
(04:29):
what are the excellences thatmake a person an excellent
person and such as to live anexcellent life? And that was the
beginning of ancient Greekethics.
Ancient Greek ethics with Platoand Aristotle, it's not about
admonishing us about what weought not to do or goading us
about what we should do. It'snot even really so much about
right and wrong. It's aboutgreatness. It's about
(04:51):
excellence. Like what sort ofqualities does a human being
need to possess in order toflourish in life, in order to
achieve the Greek word iseudaimonia, which is often
translated as happiness.
And again, I think the wordhappiness is kind of, I don't
know, vague. Maybe it'ssomething like flourishing. What
are the qualities that a humanbeing needs to cultivate and to
(05:12):
practice in order to flourish inlife, in order to live well, in
order to be happy? So that's howthey broadened the concept,
arete. What are these qualities?
Now, when the Romans translated,Roman philosophers translated
the Greek into Latin, theytranslated Aritae into Virtus, v
I r t u s. Virtus. And if youthink about it, the root of the
(05:35):
word Vir or the root there Viris also the root of the word
virility, which suggests ormeans, you know, strength,
courage, energy. It alsospecifically meant the sort of
qualities of a mature man ormanliness. And, you know, here
inevitably we come up againstcertain, you know, attitudes
(05:56):
toward women and men in theancient world that we wouldn't
endorse today.
The idea that, you know, beingfully excellent for the Greek
and some of the Greek and Romanphilosophers, especially meant
what are those qualities of anexcellent man? But there is an
exception. And I think it'sreally great to point it out.
And that was Plato, right? SoPlato argued that no, Plato had
(06:18):
a view that in the ancient worldwas really uncommon to say the
least.
And that was Plato said, thereis no reason why in principle, a
woman should not run the city,why a woman should not rule. And
you know, even Aristotle thoughtthat was impossible, really. He
thought practically it wasimpossible. But Plato argued,
no, what we need among ourleaders are excellent people.
(06:41):
And excellent people aren'tdefined by their sex or their
gender or any othercontingencies of their lives and
circumstances.
Excellent people, he said, firstof all, they're very rare. And
secondly, they've cultivatedthose virtues. Even the virtues
that are stereotypical of womenor characteristic or
characteristic of women andcharacteristic of men, they have
(07:02):
the full array of virtues sothat they can be fierce when
fierceness is required. They'recourageous like men and women
are both courageous. They can benurturing when nurturing is
required.
And I think Plato was right,right? That what we need in
leaders are those people whohave most fully developed the
fullest array of humanexcellences. So we have this
(07:22):
word virtus, and naturally itgets translated from Latin into
English as virtue. But I don'tlove it because I do think that,
you know, outside of philosophy,in ordinary language, when
people hear virtue, it soundslike, I don't know, some sort of
maybe amorphous or a soft set ofqualities that is so far removed
(07:46):
from the philosophical meaningof it, which is strength, which
is courage, which is excellence.But we're retaining the word.
I mean, in some cases, I thinkit might make sense to refer to
something like a Reddickleadership in part because the
word is unfamiliar. So peoplehave to think if I say virtuous
leadership, a lot of people aregoing be like, well, you know,
what are you talking about?Virtuous leadership that that
(08:08):
doesn't sound like anything thatreally is going to be useful in
the field of accounting. But ifwe say a Reddick leadership,
well, I don't know what thatmeans, first of all. So, you
know, it's an invitation tofurther questioning.
What do you mean by hereticleadership? Well, we do mean
leadership that has cultivated,practiced, is implemented,
implementing those excellencesor virtues that make for an
(08:32):
effective organization and aneffective leader. So I guess
also I would say that forbusiness ethics, like when Doug
invited me to participate in thePhD program in accounting,
originally, he just invited meto come in and give a talk.
Know, he knows I'm a philosophyprofessor. He wanted to develop
more ethics in program.
So he invited me and I thought,well, I'm not just going to talk
(08:54):
about business ethics generallyor abstractly. I want to really
think about the problem of fraudand what philosophical ethics
might be able to contribute totry to help mitigate the fraud.
I'm not unrealistic. I'm notthinking that if we understand
virtue, fraud's gonna go away.But I do think instead of
(09:15):
talking about utilitarianism ordeontology or these abstract
moral theories and then maybetrying to apply rules to
particular cases.
Let's instead try to deepen ourunderstanding of the motivation
to commit fraud and moralmotivation more generally and
how that fits into. Becausevirtue is not just something
like, oh, I'm gonna be virtuous.You know, I decide I'm gonna be
(09:36):
virtuous, and now I'm virtuous.No. First, it takes
understanding and having modelsto understand what these
qualities like courage are.
And then it takes cultivation,which often takes mentoring, and
it takes practice. It has to bereinforced. So I thought that,
you know, to understand moralmotivation, including the
motivation to commit fraud, andcontrary to that, the motivation
(09:59):
to achieve a greater level ofexcellence would be both a
unique and I thought promisingway to try to come at the
problem of fraud from anotherangle.
Dana Hermanson (10:09):
It really struck me as we got into this
discussion, how the, what Iliked so much about what Dan
brought to the table was thisnotion of getting above the
level of, don't do the crime ifyou can't do the time, this
punishment kind of mantra. Iactually had a student in class
describe it one time as theimportance of discipline,
because there are situationsthat people can exploit, and it
(10:31):
takes discipline not to do it. Ithink virtue is a greatly
expanded way of thinking aboutthat is that I'm not doing it
because I don't want to getcaught and punished. I'm doing
it because I want to live anexcellent life, which is a very,
very different approach to thiswhole notion of fraud
prevention.
Adam Larson (10:47):
Why do you think that these concepts have been
lost, especially in modernbusiness language? It's not
something like you see the selfhelp books, all the business
books on the shelf. They're nottalking about, Hey, be a
virtuous person.
Douglas Boyle (10:57):
Yeah. I mean, I came from industry before my
life in academia, so I've seenthis a lot in practice and also
in research. But to be simpleabout it, it's not how
executives are trained. It's nothow they do their ongoing
professional development andit's not how they're incented.
So if you think about it, theseleaders, and they are leaders,
they get their formal educationthrough business school and
(11:20):
that's particularly focused ontechnical topics and net present
value, how we do differentthings.
It's very quantitative, it'svery analytical, and now it's
very technology focused with AIand everything coming up. It's
not how they're initiallytrained when they're young
through their education and it'snot how they continue to get
their CPE credits, particularlyin accounting or finance.
(11:44):
There's many certifications andthey require ethics training,
but that typically focuses onrules. Like you can't do this,
you can't do that, don't spend,don't let your client buy you
lunch. Lots of things that arevery important to understand,
but it's not building virtue.
It's a rule book. It's a kind ofa don't do this, don't do that.
And that's not how virtue isunderstood or built. So, you
(12:08):
know, what we're trying to dohere is give these executives an
alternative way to think aboutethics and not just be so rules
based, but also be more humanbehavioral based. And that ties
into incentives becauseexecutives, in particular CFOs,
which a lot of the folks in theIMA are CFOs or controllers,
they're typically incented tomeet short term financial
(12:30):
objectives.
So to build virtue takes timeand it's work and it's practice
and you ultimately will getthere. And research has shown
that organizations who buildtrust with their employees, it
leads to higher levels ofemployee satisfaction, which
leads to higher levels ofcustomer satisfaction, which
ultimately leads to betterfinancial outcomes. So this
(12:51):
pursuit of virtue is not just anice thing to do, it also has a
real financial impact to acompany, but it takes time. So
I'm not going build virtue withmyself and my leadership team
and the culture of myorganization in one quarter to
impact next quarter's results.It's going to take a little
time.
That's not how executives aretypically compensated. So those
are kind of the challenges wehave in business to overcome to
(13:15):
really change the ethicalframework. Because until we
start building virtue andlooking at the human side, the
behavioral side, controls arereally important and rules are
really important, but they'relimiting. So that's why I think
it hasn't really taken off abusiness as to education,
ongoing development, and alsoincentives. So that's kind of
the path that we're trying toplow here is to make people
(13:38):
aware of this.
And we've also talked aboutmaybe having some CPE courses
and ethics that are more gearedthis way. Because what we found
in our PhD program and also inour Mac program, I know Dana has
seen this at Kennesaw as well,is people love this. Like
students love it, executiveslove it, they want to hear more
about it because everybody wantsto live an excellent life,
(13:58):
right? So there's a lot ofinterest out there. So that
makes it very promising forfolks like us who develop these
articles and develop theseprograms is that there is a real
interest in this.
So we really do think therecould be impact here.
Daniel Haggerty (14:12):
I could add to that if you give me a moment
here. You know, some going backto what Doug said at the
beginning about at the level ofeducation, undergraduate
education. So it's not uncommon,I think, for business students
generally, maybe accountingstudents in particular, to take
a course or even be required totake a course in ethics. And in
(14:35):
our institution, and I think inmany institutions, business
ethics is offered out of thephilosophy department, right?
So, but I mean, of course, I'msure there are exceptions, but
generally, the approachphilosophical approach to ethics
generally and business ethics inparticular is very theoretical
(14:55):
and abstract.
And this might be hard toimagine, but the philosophical
question about theoreticalethics is what makes right
actions right and wrong actionswrong? What is the nature of
good? What is the nature of bad?These are very, I think,
interesting. Right?
I'm a philosophy professor, butagain, very abstract theoretical
(15:18):
questions. You know, some of thetheories of morality that have
been developed, you know, overmillennia in Western philosophy
are efforts to answer thoseabstract questions. Aristotle
weighed in on that. Platoweighed in on that. But
Aristotle said, and I I agreewith this.
He said, well, it's one thing totry to answer theoretically what
(15:41):
is the nature of the good andwhat makes right actions right.
But when it comes to actuallyliving well or even doing the
right thing, a philosophicaltheory is not going to be
helpful. It's not like, well, weshould consult the theory and
the theory is going to give us adecision procedure to decide
what to do in this particularsituation because Aristotle
(16:02):
recognizes that the, you know,the circumstances are so various
that we can't answer abstractlywhat's the right thing to do in
that particular situation. Itdepends on that situation. So
what Aristotle said, what isneeded is not a set of rules or
a theory.
What is needed is thecultivation of virtuous people.
(16:23):
Virtuous people can count onthemselves and can be counted on
to do the best they can in agiven situation. There's no
absolute guarantee that theywon't make a mistake or that it
couldn't have been better. Butwhat we need are not rules or
theories to apply rules. What weneed is the cultivation of a
certain kind of person to dowell and to live well.
(16:43):
And and I just I suspect thatphilosophical ethics and
business ethics is not taughtthat way. Or even if it is
taught that way, it's just adescription of, you know, the
virtue approach to ethics. Whatwe're trying to do here is
actually begin the cultivationand the recognition and
cultivation and practice ofvirtue. So Doug and I have been
in recent, very recentconversation about developing a
(17:07):
concentration in ethics foraccounting and finance. So not
just business ethics, but ethicsfor accounting and finance.
And that would be a five coursesequence over four years of
undergraduate study culminatingin a capstone course where
virtue and ethics would beincluded in some of the required
(17:29):
accounting courses and then itwould culminate in a capstone
course offered out of thephilosophy department
understanding that now you'reabout to embark on this career,
what have you learned, how canyou continue to develop it, how
can you apply it, why is itimportant. So I think that sort
of like at the beginning inundergraduate education, that
sort of approach, again, it'snot just theoretical and
(17:51):
abstract, it's formative, isreally valuable.
Dana Hermanson (17:56):
The way I introduce this, I teach an
undergraduate fraud and forensiccourse. And the first day of
class, I talk about the natureof accounting education up to
the point of taking this course.I say to them, you've been
learning how to do thecalculations, what the
underlying concepts are. You arecoming up with answers, but
other than the answer beingcorrect, nobody cared what the
(18:19):
answer was. What we're going toaddress in this course is, now
you're out there in the field,you're coming up with an answer,
and now somebody comes and says,I don't like the answer.
Because with that answer, Idon't get my bonus. With that
answer, I miss my target. Sowhat we're going to focus on
here is all of these pressuresthat come from all sides that
(18:39):
want to influence your creationof this information. And
ultimately what we're going totalk about is how are you going
to respond to that? How aregoing to deal with those kinds
of issues?
And it is a totally differentsetting than learning how to
calculate some type ofdepreciation. It's well, can we
do something with salvagevalues? Can we do something with
useful life? Because I don'tlike the answer you're giving
(19:00):
me. It's going to be damaging tothe company.
So it's a totally different wayof thinking about the accounting
world. That's just, I thinkvaluable and very rewarding to
expose the students to.
Adam Larson (19:11):
So I think that's great, you know, to incorporate
that into our students coming upand the next generation of
accountants, But maybe we canshift the conversation a little
bit and talk a little bit aboutfor folks who are in industry
right now and maybe their team,they're like, okay, I want to
build virtue, but I also mean tomake my numbers. How do I bridge
that gap? And maybe we can talka little bit about that.
Dana Hermanson (19:31):
Sure. So I think it's critical to build
understanding of what is virtue,what are the key virtues that
Aristotle emphasized. We've gota number of resources in the
article for building in theseconcepts with different
resources in different areas ofthe company. Hiring and
mentoring, top managementleadership. So I encourage
(19:51):
people to take a look at thearticle for some specific
exercises and resources.
And while I think that thetraining is a critical first
step and that needs to beongoing training, two other
things that really come throughis that you can't have training
that emphasizes virtues. Andthen people look at how
management behaves and how theorganization is really run. And
(20:16):
if they perceive a disconnectthere, what they're going to
focus on is how managementbehaves and how the organization
is really run. And then itbecomes, okay, we did virtue
training to check a box. And nowI see that the people who get
ahead in the organization don'tlook that virtuous to me.
The behaviors that get merewarded either financially or
through advancement through theorganization don't appear to be
(20:40):
reflecting any type of virtues.So you've got to solve the
disconnect if there is one. Andlike so many initiatives, the
focus on virtue starts withtraining, it starts with
education, it starts withreinforcement, but it also takes
consistency with the actualethical tone in the company and
(21:00):
that you've got to have topleadership that is driving this.
Without that, it falls apart.
Daniel Haggerty (21:06):
If I can say a little more about that. Often
when people think of ethics,they think of actions. What can
you do? What can't you do? Youknow?
But virtue, as Aristotleunderstood it, action sort of
comes at the end of the line.Focuses on is the development
and the cultivation of habits ofthinking, of feeling, of
(21:28):
emotion, of desire, and all ofthose lead to action. So Dana's
absolutely right. Those habitsof thought and feeling and
desire and emotion are occur ina culture. They occur in a
context, and they're eitherreinforced by that culture or
there's a disconnection there.
So, the cultivation and thepractice of virtue isn't
(21:49):
something that can be done justindividually, like I'm going to
be virtuous now, I'm going tolearn how to think. No, it's
about reinforcing theseattitudes, these habits of
thought about the profession,thought about those that
profession serves, thought aboutthe honor of the profession,
what we desire, what we want,you know, our emotional
responses to stress and tochallenges. And that has to be
(22:12):
reinforced, I think beginningwith education at the
undergraduate level and then allthe way through.
Douglas Boyle (22:19):
I think that rings real true with our
profession too because we're oneof the only professions where we
have an obligation to thepublic. So think about that for
a second. I mean, we obviouslyhave an obligation to our
employer and things like that,but our ultimate obligation as
professionals is to the public.So that lends itself really to
virtues because we need tounderstand that and we need to
(22:40):
behave that way in how we comeup with decisions and think
about things. I thinkparticularly in accounting,
we're probably one of the onlyprofessions or very few
professions who have thatbroader obligation.
I think the downside, you canmitigate some of that downside
hit because like if we trustAdam's judgment and we know, we
(23:02):
might not understand exactly whyAdam made the decision he did,
but we know he's an excellentperson and we trust his
judgment, you can mitigate someof that downside. But that takes
time, like Dana said, to buildthat kind of reputation because
people will trust the decisionsyou're making are consistent
with the facts, you know, allthe facts you had and you
exercise really good judgment.So we need to trust a little bit
(23:25):
more with that. But that takestime to build.
Adam Larson (23:26):
Well, people have been burned so many times that
it's hard to build back up thattrust because, you know, they've
had leaders ahead of them who'vetold them to do things and
they're like, I can't trust thisperson or somebody's making a
crazy decision. They're like,well, last time somebody made
the decision, my company tankedand I lost everything, you know?
So, you know, are there arethere tips or thoughts about,
you know, how do you build,like, what are steps you can
(23:47):
take to kind of build up thattrust that's required to have
that, you know, that virtuousorganization?
Douglas Boyle (23:52):
One thing Dan talked about is information
gathering. So, so not everybodymight not agree with the
ultimate decision, but if theyfeel that their views on the
decision were heard and theywere seriously considered, I
think that's an important firststep. And that requires time,
right? And that requires a skillset. But I think too often in
business decisions are made by asmall group of individuals and a
(24:15):
lot of other stakeholders feltthat their interests weren't
heard.
So I think gathering thatinformation in a very
appropriate way is important.
Dana Hermanson (24:26):
I think if there isn't that kind of information
made available, it's very easyfor people to fall into sort of
coming up with what somebodyelse's motivation must have
been. Our university presidenthere emphasizes that all the
time. Don't think you understandsomebody's motivation. As soon
as you start ascribingmotivation, you get onto thin
ice.
I think that transparency aboutvoices were heard, these are the
(24:49):
things we considered, this iswhy we ended up, may and or may
not be a short term hit, butwe're looking for long term
benefit. It's critical.
Daniel Haggerty (24:58):
I would add that trust requires a
relationship. That goes back toour discussion of culture. And I
am reminded of this line inAristotle's Nicomachean Ethics
that he's speaking of a certainkind of relationship,
friendship. We're not talkingabout friendship in this
podcast, but I think it appliesnonetheless. And he said, people
(25:20):
cannot truly be friends untiland unless they have shared much
salt.
And then he doesn't explain. Hedoesn't elaborate, which is good
because it's an invitation forus to think. And, you know, one
thing that comes to mind isthey've actually shared meals
together, of course, which is a,is a way of building up
relationship and community,right? Overcoming a sense of
(25:44):
everybody's for themselves arenot connected to one another.
But what else do we think ofwhen we think of sharing much
salt while sweat, right?
Where they've worked together,right? They've, they've
collaborated together in a jointeffort and they've, they've
applied themselves, right?They've sweated together. You
think of tears with salt. So youthink of hardship, you think of
hard times, you think ofenduring them together in
(26:06):
relationship, in community salt.
You think of blood, you think ofpain, you think of injury. So
it's not like, you know, trustis a deep thing. It's a precious
thing that has to be cultivated.It has to be sought. It has to
be understood.
It has to be desired and it hasto be reinforced. It has to be
(26:26):
honored. So, you know, inaddition to the sort of
practical answers to to what ittakes to to cultivate that
trust, I think I think thatbroader sort of philosophical
understanding is also a nice wayto frame it.
Adam Larson (26:40):
Also, salt brings out the best in things like when
you put salt on food, it bringsout all the other flavors.
Daniel Haggerty (26:45):
That's right.
Adam Larson (26:46):
So if we have salt among each other, we're bringing
out the best in each other,which in case of friendship and
in leadership, we wanna bringout the best in our employees.
If we are a friend, you wannabring out the best in your
friend. So I think that'sanother way of looking at the
salt reference.
Daniel Haggerty (26:58):
Have you been reading Aristotle?
Adam Larson (27:01):
Not since my undergraduate one philosophy
class I had to take.
Daniel Haggerty (27:06):
That's very good.
Adam Larson (27:07):
Yeah. So, you know, we could go on this conversation
for a long time and go aroundthe circle a number of ways, but
I figured we could kind of wrapup our conversation by maybe
saying you could maybe give apiece of advice you'd give to
maybe a young professional,somebody entering the finance
and accounting field, which, youknow, you guys are all
professors, you see those thoseyoung minds a lot. You know, if
you wanted to give them onepiece of advice about the
(27:27):
importance of virtue, you know,what would that be?
Douglas Boyle (27:29):
Yeah. I would start by saying you're going to
have a very long career andyou're going to most certainly
run into ethical dilemmas andyou're also going to be subject
to pressure to maybe not makethe right decision. The more you
understand that early on and youtake a more long term
perspective that you are goingto live by a set of virtues, you
(27:52):
will stand out and you willreach very high levels of an
organization and sometimes youmight have to change your
organization if they don't havethe same ethical framework, but
your career is a long termmarathon. And a lot of young
people, you want to get promotednext week and they might take
shortcuts or succumb topressure. Sometimes it's best to
(28:12):
maybe leave an opportunity topursue another one.
So having that long term viewultimately will result in a very
sustainable career where youwill reach the upper echelons at
the right place. But you have tohave a little patience to do
that and you have to have alittle confidence in yourself.
Like Dan was saying before,courage is a really important
virtue and you need to havecourage throughout your career.
(28:35):
So there's no shortcuts.
Dana Hermanson (28:37):
My advice also builds on what Dan said earlier,
the fundamental importance ofcourage and what I really try to
convey to our students, what Itry to convey to people in the
profession is have the courageto question, have the courage to
challenge, have the courage tothink, I'm not an idiot, and
this doesn't make sense to me.
(28:58):
Somebody's got some othermotivation here, I need to
understand that. Have thecourage to ask for time to
consider what you're gonna do.Don't make snap decisions. And
then ultimately have the courageto report something or change
employers if needed. But it'sabout taking control of your
career with this long termhorizon that as I go through
(29:19):
this thing, I'm going to dothings the right way.
And there may be some short termhits. I may run into a boss who
says, You're not gettingpromoted because you weren't
willing to play. Okay, I'll finda place that values that. But I
think for me so much comes backto courage. I think that's just
absolutely foundational.
Daniel Haggerty (29:39):
I agree. So Aristotle understood that the
excellences range from publiclife to private life, right?
That there are excellences inrelationships and friendships
and family. There areexcellences in the local
community. There are excellencesof citizenship, political,
military, business, that there'san array of excellences because
(30:02):
human life is complex.
And I guess I, you know, thephilosopher's answer to advice
to a student, I would encouragean accounting student when I
have one. Mean, one of mydaughters is currently studying
accounting as an undergraduate.And that is to, of course, you
know, we talk about work lifebalance and I understand the
(30:23):
importance of that, but not totake that to mean that you
should see your work and careeras disconnected from the rest of
your life. Right? The idea ofvirtue is to flourish and to
live excellently across life,right, in all areas of your
life.
And so I would encouragestudents going into the field of
(30:44):
accounting to really look attheir vocation, to look at their
career as honorable, and as anopportunity to live honorably
professionally, as well asliving honorably personally.
Right? I think what I mean byliving honorably is ultimately,
I think, living in such a waythat you could admire it. You
(31:05):
know, living in such a way thatyou knew you did well, you
didn't do perfectly, but and youkept you kept at it. You kept
developing.
And and and you aspired not justto be good, but in your own way
to be great.
Adam Larson (31:19):
Well, Dan, Dana, and Doug, thank you all so much
for coming on the podcast. Itwas really great speaking with
you and discussing this, virtue,especially in the business
sense, and I think it's been areally enlightening
conversation.
All Speakers (31:30):
Great. Well, thank you very much.
Announcer (31:34):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
Welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson,
today we're bringing you a trulythought provoking conversation
with three outstanding guests,Douglas Boyle, Daniel Hagerty,
and Dana Hermanson. All threeare respected professors and
authors of the Kurt for surefeature of the year, Aristotle
and Building Virtue to FightFraud. In this episode, we dig
deep into the concept of virtue,what it really means, where it
(00:44):
comes from and why it mattersfor professionals in business
today.
From the philosophical roots ofarte in the ancient Greek to
practical steps for buildingvirtuous organizations in the
modern workplace, our guestsexplore how excellence, courage,
and human flourishing can becomethe foundation for ethical
decision making and leadership.You'll hear why virtue often
goes missing in businesseducation and professional
(01:05):
development, and what we can doabout it. Whether you're a
student, a working professional,or a leader looking to create a
more ethical and effectiveculture, this episode practical
insights you can put into actionright away. Let's get started.
Well, Daniel, Dana, and Doug, I'm so excited to have
(01:27):
you on. We're gonna be talkingabout your award winning article
that's out. Please look at thelink in the description if you
wanna read that article beforeyou listen to this conversation.
But I figured we could start ina place where you can give us a
bit of a background on theongoing issue of fraud,
especially in accounting andfinance.
Dana Hermanson (01:42):
Sure. So fraud remains a major societal issue,
and it's fundamentally a peopleissue. You know, the number one
cause of fraud, as my co authorDavid Wolf always says, is
people. So as long as you've gotpeople in any system, you're
going to see somebody dosomething crazy. And the cost of
this issue remains high.
ACFE estimates it's about 5% ofrevenues for the typical
(02:05):
organization. So you extrapolatethat out globally, and it's a
multi trillion dollar problem.We've got some unique things
going on in the fraud area rightnow. One is the continuing arms
race between the perpetratorsand the fraud prevention folks.
For example, AI, I think hasgreat potential for mitigating
fraud, detecting fraud, but AIis also a very useful tool for
(02:29):
committing fraud with fakevoice, fake video, fake
documents.
From an accounting fraudperspective, we continue to deal
with the fundamental issue thatwe get the financial statements
from management, who knows themost about the company. But
management has the ability, ifthey want to, to exploit their
information advantage overothers. So that's why we have
(02:49):
auditors and all the othercontrols in place. So we've got
an issue that has attractedattention for decades. I think
we have made some progress inaddressing the fraud issue, but
it's still a significantsocietal issue because people
are at the heart of the issue.
Adam Larson (03:05):
So your article specifically focused on virtue.
And so I figured we could startoff by defining virtue,
especially in the context ofbusiness in excess and
professional conduct, you know,because it's a word that is not
often used in a businesscontext.
Daniel Haggerty (03:20):
So to understand what we mean by
virtue and how we use it in thearticle, I think it's really
important to sort of get to thephilosophical roots of this word
that gets translated from Greekinto Latin into English as
virtue. So the original Greekword was Arite, and Arite
referred to the qualities ofexcellence in warfare. Right?
(03:44):
The word Arite derives from theGreek god Ares, the god of war.
So the original meaning of this,you know, Arite that gets
rendered ultimately into Englishas virtue was in no way a soft
quality.
It was referring to the kind ofcourage and even ferocity and
strength that was necessary foran effective soldier in battle.
(04:07):
But in the hands of thephilosophers and particularly
Plato and Aristotle, theybroadened the concept. They
said, okay, well, you know,understanding what it means to
be an excellent soldier isimportant, but we want to try to
understand more broadly, whatdoes it mean to be an excellent
human being, right? So what arethe erratic qualities that is,
(04:29):
what are the excellences thatmake a person an excellent
person and such as to live anexcellent life? And that was the
beginning of ancient Greekethics.
Ancient Greek ethics with Platoand Aristotle, it's not about
admonishing us about what weought not to do or goading us
about what we should do. It'snot even really so much about
right and wrong. It's aboutgreatness. It's about
(04:51):
excellence. Like what sort ofqualities does a human being
need to possess in order toflourish in life, in order to
achieve the Greek word iseudaimonia, which is often
translated as happiness.
And again, I think the wordhappiness is kind of, I don't
know, vague. Maybe it'ssomething like flourishing. What
are the qualities that a humanbeing needs to cultivate and to
(05:12):
practice in order to flourish inlife, in order to live well, in
order to be happy? So that's howthey broadened the concept,
arete. What are these qualities?
Now, when the Romans translated,Roman philosophers translated
the Greek into Latin, theytranslated Aritae into Virtus, v
I r t u s. Virtus. And if youthink about it, the root of the
(05:35):
word Vir or the root there Viris also the root of the word
virility, which suggests ormeans, you know, strength,
courage, energy. It alsospecifically meant the sort of
qualities of a mature man ormanliness. And, you know, here
inevitably we come up againstcertain, you know, attitudes
(05:56):
toward women and men in theancient world that we wouldn't
endorse today.
The idea that, you know, beingfully excellent for the Greek
and some of the Greek and Romanphilosophers, especially meant
what are those qualities of anexcellent man? But there is an
exception. And I think it'sreally great to point it out.
And that was Plato, right? SoPlato argued that no, Plato had
(06:18):
a view that in the ancient worldwas really uncommon to say the
least.
And that was Plato said, thereis no reason why in principle, a
woman should not run the city,why a woman should not rule. And
you know, even Aristotle thoughtthat was impossible, really. He
thought practically it wasimpossible. But Plato argued,
no, what we need among ourleaders are excellent people.
(06:41):
And excellent people aren'tdefined by their sex or their
gender or any othercontingencies of their lives and
circumstances.
Excellent people, he said, firstof all, they're very rare. And
secondly, they've cultivatedthose virtues. Even the virtues
that are stereotypical of womenor characteristic or
characteristic of women andcharacteristic of men, they have
(07:02):
the full array of virtues sothat they can be fierce when
fierceness is required. They'recourageous like men and women
are both courageous. They can benurturing when nurturing is
required.
And I think Plato was right,right? That what we need in
leaders are those people whohave most fully developed the
fullest array of humanexcellences. So we have this
(07:22):
word virtus, and naturally itgets translated from Latin into
English as virtue. But I don'tlove it because I do think that,
you know, outside of philosophy,in ordinary language, when
people hear virtue, it soundslike, I don't know, some sort of
maybe amorphous or a soft set ofqualities that is so far removed
(07:46):
from the philosophical meaningof it, which is strength, which
is courage, which is excellence.But we're retaining the word.
I mean, in some cases, I thinkit might make sense to refer to
something like a Reddickleadership in part because the
word is unfamiliar. So peoplehave to think if I say virtuous
leadership, a lot of people aregoing be like, well, you know,
what are you talking about?Virtuous leadership that that
(08:08):
doesn't sound like anything thatreally is going to be useful in
the field of accounting. But ifwe say a Reddick leadership,
well, I don't know what thatmeans, first of all. So, you
know, it's an invitation tofurther questioning.
What do you mean by hereticleadership? Well, we do mean
leadership that has cultivated,practiced, is implemented,
implementing those excellencesor virtues that make for an
(08:32):
effective organization and aneffective leader. So I guess
also I would say that forbusiness ethics, like when Doug
invited me to participate in thePhD program in accounting,
originally, he just invited meto come in and give a talk.
Know, he knows I'm a philosophyprofessor. He wanted to develop
more ethics in program.
So he invited me and I thought,well, I'm not just going to talk
(08:54):
about business ethics generallyor abstractly. I want to really
think about the problem of fraudand what philosophical ethics
might be able to contribute totry to help mitigate the fraud.
I'm not unrealistic. I'm notthinking that if we understand
virtue, fraud's gonna go away.But I do think instead of
(09:15):
talking about utilitarianism ordeontology or these abstract
moral theories and then maybetrying to apply rules to
particular cases.
Let's instead try to deepen ourunderstanding of the motivation
to commit fraud and moralmotivation more generally and
how that fits into. Becausevirtue is not just something
like, oh, I'm gonna be virtuous.You know, I decide I'm gonna be
(09:36):
virtuous, and now I'm virtuous.No. First, it takes
understanding and having modelsto understand what these
qualities like courage are.
And then it takes cultivation,which often takes mentoring, and
it takes practice. It has to bereinforced. So I thought that,
you know, to understand moralmotivation, including the
motivation to commit fraud, andcontrary to that, the motivation
(09:59):
to achieve a greater level ofexcellence would be both a
unique and I thought promisingway to try to come at the
problem of fraud from anotherangle.
Dana Hermanson (10:09):
It really struck me as we got into this
discussion, how the, what Iliked so much about what Dan
brought to the table was thisnotion of getting above the
level of, don't do the crime ifyou can't do the time, this
punishment kind of mantra. Iactually had a student in class
describe it one time as theimportance of discipline,
because there are situationsthat people can exploit, and it
(10:31):
takes discipline not to do it. Ithink virtue is a greatly
expanded way of thinking aboutthat is that I'm not doing it
because I don't want to getcaught and punished. I'm doing
it because I want to live anexcellent life, which is a very,
very different approach to thiswhole notion of fraud
prevention.
Adam Larson (10:47):
Why do you think that these concepts have been
lost, especially in modernbusiness language? It's not
something like you see the selfhelp books, all the business
books on the shelf. They're nottalking about, Hey, be a
virtuous person.
Douglas Boyle (10:57):
Yeah. I mean, I came from industry before my
life in academia, so I've seenthis a lot in practice and also
in research. But to be simpleabout it, it's not how
executives are trained. It's nothow they do their ongoing
professional development andit's not how they're incented.
So if you think about it, theseleaders, and they are leaders,
they get their formal educationthrough business school and
(11:20):
that's particularly focused ontechnical topics and net present
value, how we do differentthings.
It's very quantitative, it'svery analytical, and now it's
very technology focused with AIand everything coming up. It's
not how they're initiallytrained when they're young
through their education and it'snot how they continue to get
their CPE credits, particularlyin accounting or finance.
(11:44):
There's many certifications andthey require ethics training,
but that typically focuses onrules. Like you can't do this,
you can't do that, don't spend,don't let your client buy you
lunch. Lots of things that arevery important to understand,
but it's not building virtue.
It's a rule book. It's a kind ofa don't do this, don't do that.
And that's not how virtue isunderstood or built. So, you
(12:08):
know, what we're trying to dohere is give these executives an
alternative way to think aboutethics and not just be so rules
based, but also be more humanbehavioral based. And that ties
into incentives becauseexecutives, in particular CFOs,
which a lot of the folks in theIMA are CFOs or controllers,
they're typically incented tomeet short term financial
(12:30):
objectives.
So to build virtue takes timeand it's work and it's practice
and you ultimately will getthere. And research has shown
that organizations who buildtrust with their employees, it
leads to higher levels ofemployee satisfaction, which
leads to higher levels ofcustomer satisfaction, which
ultimately leads to betterfinancial outcomes. So this
(12:51):
pursuit of virtue is not just anice thing to do, it also has a
real financial impact to acompany, but it takes time. So
I'm not going build virtue withmyself and my leadership team
and the culture of myorganization in one quarter to
impact next quarter's results.It's going to take a little
time.
That's not how executives aretypically compensated. So those
are kind of the challenges wehave in business to overcome to
(13:15):
really change the ethicalframework. Because until we
start building virtue andlooking at the human side, the
behavioral side, controls arereally important and rules are
really important, but they'relimiting. So that's why I think
it hasn't really taken off abusiness as to education,
ongoing development, and alsoincentives. So that's kind of
the path that we're trying toplow here is to make people
(13:38):
aware of this.
And we've also talked aboutmaybe having some CPE courses
and ethics that are more gearedthis way. Because what we found
in our PhD program and also inour Mac program, I know Dana has
seen this at Kennesaw as well,is people love this. Like
students love it, executiveslove it, they want to hear more
about it because everybody wantsto live an excellent life,
(13:58):
right? So there's a lot ofinterest out there. So that
makes it very promising forfolks like us who develop these
articles and develop theseprograms is that there is a real
interest in this.
So we really do think therecould be impact here.
Daniel Haggerty (14:12):
I could add to that if you give me a moment
here. You know, some going backto what Doug said at the
beginning about at the level ofeducation, undergraduate
education. So it's not uncommon,I think, for business students
generally, maybe accountingstudents in particular, to take
a course or even be required totake a course in ethics. And in
(14:35):
our institution, and I think inmany institutions, business
ethics is offered out of thephilosophy department, right?
So, but I mean, of course, I'msure there are exceptions, but
generally, the approachphilosophical approach to ethics
generally and business ethics inparticular is very theoretical
(14:55):
and abstract.
And this might be hard toimagine, but the philosophical
question about theoreticalethics is what makes right
actions right and wrong actionswrong? What is the nature of
good? What is the nature of bad?These are very, I think,
interesting. Right?
I'm a philosophy professor, butagain, very abstract theoretical
(15:18):
questions. You know, some of thetheories of morality that have
been developed, you know, overmillennia in Western philosophy
are efforts to answer thoseabstract questions. Aristotle
weighed in on that. Platoweighed in on that. But
Aristotle said, and I I agreewith this.
He said, well, it's one thing totry to answer theoretically what
(15:41):
is the nature of the good andwhat makes right actions right.
But when it comes to actuallyliving well or even doing the
right thing, a philosophicaltheory is not going to be
helpful. It's not like, well, weshould consult the theory and
the theory is going to give us adecision procedure to decide
what to do in this particularsituation because Aristotle
(16:02):
recognizes that the, you know,the circumstances are so various
that we can't answer abstractlywhat's the right thing to do in
that particular situation. Itdepends on that situation. So
what Aristotle said, what isneeded is not a set of rules or
a theory.
What is needed is thecultivation of virtuous people.
(16:23):
Virtuous people can count onthemselves and can be counted on
to do the best they can in agiven situation. There's no
absolute guarantee that theywon't make a mistake or that it
couldn't have been better. Butwhat we need are not rules or
theories to apply rules. What weneed is the cultivation of a
certain kind of person to dowell and to live well.
(16:43):
And and I just I suspect thatphilosophical ethics and
business ethics is not taughtthat way. Or even if it is
taught that way, it's just adescription of, you know, the
virtue approach to ethics. Whatwe're trying to do here is
actually begin the cultivationand the recognition and
cultivation and practice ofvirtue. So Doug and I have been
in recent, very recentconversation about developing a
(17:07):
concentration in ethics foraccounting and finance. So not
just business ethics, but ethicsfor accounting and finance.
And that would be a five coursesequence over four years of
undergraduate study culminatingin a capstone course where
virtue and ethics would beincluded in some of the required
(17:29):
accounting courses and then itwould culminate in a capstone
course offered out of thephilosophy department
understanding that now you'reabout to embark on this career,
what have you learned, how canyou continue to develop it, how
can you apply it, why is itimportant. So I think that sort
of like at the beginning inundergraduate education, that
sort of approach, again, it'snot just theoretical and
(17:51):
abstract, it's formative, isreally valuable.
Dana Hermanson (17:56):
The way I introduce this, I teach an
undergraduate fraud and forensiccourse. And the first day of
class, I talk about the natureof accounting education up to
the point of taking this course.I say to them, you've been
learning how to do thecalculations, what the
underlying concepts are. You arecoming up with answers, but
other than the answer beingcorrect, nobody cared what the
(18:19):
answer was. What we're going toaddress in this course is, now
you're out there in the field,you're coming up with an answer,
and now somebody comes and says,I don't like the answer.
Because with that answer, Idon't get my bonus. With that
answer, I miss my target. Sowhat we're going to focus on
here is all of these pressuresthat come from all sides that
(18:39):
want to influence your creationof this information. And
ultimately what we're going totalk about is how are you going
to respond to that? How aregoing to deal with those kinds
of issues?
And it is a totally differentsetting than learning how to
calculate some type ofdepreciation. It's well, can we
do something with salvagevalues? Can we do something with
useful life? Because I don'tlike the answer you're giving
(19:00):
me. It's going to be damaging tothe company.
So it's a totally different wayof thinking about the accounting
world. That's just, I thinkvaluable and very rewarding to
expose the students to.
Adam Larson (19:11):
So I think that's great, you know, to incorporate
that into our students coming upand the next generation of
accountants, But maybe we canshift the conversation a little
bit and talk a little bit aboutfor folks who are in industry
right now and maybe their team,they're like, okay, I want to
build virtue, but I also mean tomake my numbers. How do I bridge
that gap? And maybe we can talka little bit about that.
Dana Hermanson (19:31):
Sure. So I think it's critical to build
understanding of what is virtue,what are the key virtues that
Aristotle emphasized. We've gota number of resources in the
article for building in theseconcepts with different
resources in different areas ofthe company. Hiring and
mentoring, top managementleadership. So I encourage
(19:51):
people to take a look at thearticle for some specific
exercises and resources.
And while I think that thetraining is a critical first
step and that needs to beongoing training, two other
things that really come throughis that you can't have training
that emphasizes virtues. Andthen people look at how
management behaves and how theorganization is really run. And
(20:16):
if they perceive a disconnectthere, what they're going to
focus on is how managementbehaves and how the organization
is really run. And then itbecomes, okay, we did virtue
training to check a box. And nowI see that the people who get
ahead in the organization don'tlook that virtuous to me.
The behaviors that get merewarded either financially or
through advancement through theorganization don't appear to be
(20:40):
reflecting any type of virtues.So you've got to solve the
disconnect if there is one. Andlike so many initiatives, the
focus on virtue starts withtraining, it starts with
education, it starts withreinforcement, but it also takes
consistency with the actualethical tone in the company and
(21:00):
that you've got to have topleadership that is driving this.
Without that, it falls apart.
Daniel Haggerty (21:06):
If I can say a little more about that. Often
when people think of ethics,they think of actions. What can
you do? What can't you do? Youknow?
But virtue, as Aristotleunderstood it, action sort of
comes at the end of the line.Focuses on is the development
and the cultivation of habits ofthinking, of feeling, of
(21:28):
emotion, of desire, and all ofthose lead to action. So Dana's
absolutely right. Those habitsof thought and feeling and
desire and emotion are occur ina culture. They occur in a
context, and they're eitherreinforced by that culture or
there's a disconnection there.
So, the cultivation and thepractice of virtue isn't
(21:49):
something that can be done justindividually, like I'm going to
be virtuous now, I'm going tolearn how to think. No, it's
about reinforcing theseattitudes, these habits of
thought about the profession,thought about those that
profession serves, thought aboutthe honor of the profession,
what we desire, what we want,you know, our emotional
responses to stress and tochallenges. And that has to be
(22:12):
reinforced, I think beginningwith education at the
undergraduate level and then allthe way through.
Douglas Boyle (22:19):
I think that rings real true with our
profession too because we're oneof the only professions where we
have an obligation to thepublic. So think about that for
a second. I mean, we obviouslyhave an obligation to our
employer and things like that,but our ultimate obligation as
professionals is to the public.So that lends itself really to
virtues because we need tounderstand that and we need to
(22:40):
behave that way in how we comeup with decisions and think
about things. I thinkparticularly in accounting,
we're probably one of the onlyprofessions or very few
professions who have thatbroader obligation.
I think the downside, you canmitigate some of that downside
hit because like if we trustAdam's judgment and we know, we
(23:02):
might not understand exactly whyAdam made the decision he did,
but we know he's an excellentperson and we trust his
judgment, you can mitigate someof that downside. But that takes
time, like Dana said, to buildthat kind of reputation because
people will trust the decisionsyou're making are consistent
with the facts, you know, allthe facts you had and you
exercise really good judgment.So we need to trust a little bit
(23:25):
more with that. But that takestime to build.
Adam Larson (23:26):
Well, people have been burned so many times that
it's hard to build back up thattrust because, you know, they've
had leaders ahead of them who'vetold them to do things and
they're like, I can't trust thisperson or somebody's making a
crazy decision. They're like,well, last time somebody made
the decision, my company tankedand I lost everything, you know?
So, you know, are there arethere tips or thoughts about,
you know, how do you build,like, what are steps you can
(23:47):
take to kind of build up thattrust that's required to have
that, you know, that virtuousorganization?
Douglas Boyle (23:52):
One thing Dan talked about is information
gathering. So, so not everybodymight not agree with the
ultimate decision, but if theyfeel that their views on the
decision were heard and theywere seriously considered, I
think that's an important firststep. And that requires time,
right? And that requires a skillset. But I think too often in
business decisions are made by asmall group of individuals and a
(24:15):
lot of other stakeholders feltthat their interests weren't
heard.
So I think gathering thatinformation in a very
appropriate way is important.
Dana Hermanson (24:26):
I think if there isn't that kind of information
made available, it's very easyfor people to fall into sort of
coming up with what somebodyelse's motivation must have
been. Our university presidenthere emphasizes that all the
time. Don't think you understandsomebody's motivation. As soon
as you start ascribingmotivation, you get onto thin
ice.
I think that transparency aboutvoices were heard, these are the
(24:49):
things we considered, this iswhy we ended up, may and or may
not be a short term hit, butwe're looking for long term
benefit. It's critical.
Daniel Haggerty (24:58):
I would add that trust requires a
relationship. That goes back toour discussion of culture. And I
am reminded of this line inAristotle's Nicomachean Ethics
that he's speaking of a certainkind of relationship,
friendship. We're not talkingabout friendship in this
podcast, but I think it appliesnonetheless. And he said, people
(25:20):
cannot truly be friends untiland unless they have shared much
salt.
And then he doesn't explain. Hedoesn't elaborate, which is good
because it's an invitation forus to think. And, you know, one
thing that comes to mind isthey've actually shared meals
together, of course, which is a,is a way of building up
relationship and community,right? Overcoming a sense of
(25:44):
everybody's for themselves arenot connected to one another.
But what else do we think ofwhen we think of sharing much
salt while sweat, right?
Where they've worked together,right? They've, they've
collaborated together in a jointeffort and they've, they've
applied themselves, right?They've sweated together. You
think of tears with salt. So youthink of hardship, you think of
hard times, you think ofenduring them together in
(26:06):
relationship, in community salt.
You think of blood, you think ofpain, you think of injury. So
it's not like, you know, trustis a deep thing. It's a precious
thing that has to be cultivated.It has to be sought. It has to
be understood.
It has to be desired and it hasto be reinforced. It has to be
(26:26):
honored. So, you know, inaddition to the sort of
practical answers to to what ittakes to to cultivate that
trust, I think I think thatbroader sort of philosophical
understanding is also a nice wayto frame it.
Adam Larson (26:40):
Also, salt brings out the best in things like when
you put salt on food, it bringsout all the other flavors.
Daniel Haggerty (26:45):
That's right.
Adam Larson (26:46):
So if we have salt among each other, we're bringing
out the best in each other,which in case of friendship and
in leadership, we wanna bringout the best in our employees.
If we are a friend, you wannabring out the best in your
friend. So I think that'sanother way of looking at the
salt reference.
Daniel Haggerty (26:58):
Have you been reading Aristotle?
Adam Larson (27:01):
Not since my undergraduate one philosophy
class I had to take.
Daniel Haggerty (27:06):
That's very good.
Adam Larson (27:07):
Yeah. So, you know, we could go on this conversation
for a long time and go aroundthe circle a number of ways, but
I figured we could kind of wrapup our conversation by maybe
saying you could maybe give apiece of advice you'd give to
maybe a young professional,somebody entering the finance
and accounting field, which, youknow, you guys are all
professors, you see those thoseyoung minds a lot. You know, if
you wanted to give them onepiece of advice about the
(27:27):
importance of virtue, you know,what would that be?
Douglas Boyle (27:29):
Yeah. I would start by saying you're going to
have a very long career andyou're going to most certainly
run into ethical dilemmas andyou're also going to be subject
to pressure to maybe not makethe right decision. The more you
understand that early on and youtake a more long term
perspective that you are goingto live by a set of virtues, you
(27:52):
will stand out and you willreach very high levels of an
organization and sometimes youmight have to change your
organization if they don't havethe same ethical framework, but
your career is a long termmarathon. And a lot of young
people, you want to get promotednext week and they might take
shortcuts or succumb topressure. Sometimes it's best to
(28:12):
maybe leave an opportunity topursue another one.
So having that long term viewultimately will result in a very
sustainable career where youwill reach the upper echelons at
the right place. But you have tohave a little patience to do
that and you have to have alittle confidence in yourself.
Like Dan was saying before,courage is a really important
virtue and you need to havecourage throughout your career.
(28:35):
So there's no shortcuts.
Dana Hermanson (28:37):
My advice also builds on what Dan said earlier,
the fundamental importance ofcourage and what I really try to
convey to our students, what Itry to convey to people in the
profession is have the courageto question, have the courage to
challenge, have the courage tothink, I'm not an idiot, and
this doesn't make sense to me.
(28:58):
Somebody's got some othermotivation here, I need to
understand that. Have thecourage to ask for time to
consider what you're gonna do.Don't make snap decisions. And
then ultimately have the courageto report something or change
employers if needed. But it'sabout taking control of your
career with this long termhorizon that as I go through
(29:19):
this thing, I'm going to dothings the right way.
And there may be some short termhits. I may run into a boss who
says, You're not gettingpromoted because you weren't
willing to play. Okay, I'll finda place that values that. But I
think for me so much comes backto courage. I think that's just
absolutely foundational.
Daniel Haggerty (29:39):
I agree. So Aristotle understood that the
excellences range from publiclife to private life, right?
That there are excellences inrelationships and friendships
and family. There areexcellences in the local
community. There are excellencesof citizenship, political,
military, business, that there'san array of excellences because
(30:02):
human life is complex.
And I guess I, you know, thephilosopher's answer to advice
to a student, I would encouragean accounting student when I
have one. Mean, one of mydaughters is currently studying
accounting as an undergraduate.And that is to, of course, you
know, we talk about work lifebalance and I understand the
(30:23):
importance of that, but not totake that to mean that you
should see your work and careeras disconnected from the rest of
your life. Right? The idea ofvirtue is to flourish and to
live excellently across life,right, in all areas of your
life.
And so I would encouragestudents going into the field of
(30:44):
accounting to really look attheir vocation, to look at their
career as honorable, and as anopportunity to live honorably
professionally, as well asliving honorably personally.
Right? I think what I mean byliving honorably is ultimately,
I think, living in such a waythat you could admire it. You
(31:05):
know, living in such a way thatyou knew you did well, you
didn't do perfectly, but and youkept you kept at it. You kept
developing.
And and and you aspired not justto be good, but in your own way
to be great.
Adam Larson (31:19):
Well, Dan, Dana, and Doug, thank you all so much
for coming on the podcast. Itwas really great speaking with
you and discussing this, virtue,especially in the business
sense, and I think it's been areally enlightening
conversation.
All Speakers (31:30):
Great. Well, thank you very much.
Announcer (31:34):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
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