October 6, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode of Count Me In, host Adam Larson chats with John Rubinetti, President of B2B Payments at Deluxe, about what it really takes for mid-market companies to move from manual accounts payable and receivable processes to smart automation. John shares eye-opening stats (like 71% of firms still juggling AP/AR manually) and practical insights on making the switch, from overcoming resistance to integrating multiple payment systems.
You'll get honest advice on preparing your team, what to look for in automation platforms, and why empowering your finance pros matters more than ever. If you’re looking to save time, reduce errors, or just get your team out of endless reconciliation work, don’t miss this episode—John’s straightforward tips and real-world stories make automation less intimidating and a lot more achievable.
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Episode Transcript
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Adam Larson (00:05):
Welcome back to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam
Larson. And today, I'm joined byJohn Rubinetti, president of b
two b payments at Deluxe to talkabout one of the hottest topics
in finance, automation inaccounts payable and accounts
receivable. John brings a wealthof experience and some striking
stats like the fact that 71% ofmid market companies haven't
automated their AP or AR losingvaluable time each month.
(00:29):
Together we explore why manualprocesses are still so
widespread and the biggestbarriers to automating and how
to make the leap to moreefficient systems even when your
team or customers are used tothe old ways.
We also cover what to look forin automation solutions that can
grow with your business andhandle whatever the future of
payments might bring. If you'relooking to modernize your
finance processes and free upmore time for what really
(00:51):
matters, this episode is foryou. Let's get started. Well,
John, I'm really excited to haveyou on the podcast today. And
today we're going be reallyfocusing on AP accounts payable,
accounts receivable and thatautomation.
And, you know, as our listenersknow, they're all accountant,
(01:12):
accounting and financeprofessionals. You know, it's
essential for managing yourcompany's cash flow for your
financial health. It's like aliability. It's a list on your
on your on your reports. And yougot to you know, automation is
super important.
And so maybe we could start alittle bit about talking about
why are we talking? Why is thisa topic for a podcast, AP and AR
automation?
John Rubinetti (01:31):
Yeah, look, from my perspective, right, I've been
talking about this for the pastyear. We did some studies around
mid market companies, right, andwhat percent have AP or AR
automation. And the numbers wereastounding. 71% of both. We did
it for AR, we did it for AP.
71% of mid market companies donot have an automated AP or AR.
(01:56):
They are spending fourteen hoursa month manually reconciled,
into three or four differentsystems to pull information
together. So when you talk aboutkind of why it's so important
for them, cash flow, they'respending more time reconciling
different payment types thatthey get and making payments
(02:17):
than they are doing the thingsthat they should be doing, which
is better cash flow. Using thedata better. Right.
And so when I look at thosestatistics and when you take
that fourteen hours a month,that's one month of productivity
loss. So these are mid marketcompanies. They need and cash
(02:38):
flow is so important to them. Iwould much rather have them
spend thirty days worth oflooking at the, you know, making
sure that they have the rightnegotiated payment terms with
suppliers or, you know, arereceiving payments the right
way. Like that's where theyshould be spending time.
So that's why for me, I've beentalking about, everybody wants
(02:58):
to talk about AI and everybodywants to talk about all the
fancy things and real timepayments and all of that. But I
want to just talk about thebasics because many of these mid
market companies need thebasics, just need to automate
flows and have one place to go.And so at Deluxe, that's what
we're trying to deliver. Andthat's what we have with our
(03:19):
three sixty plus receivablesplatform and our DPX plus
payments platform. So that'skind of why it's important to
me.
Adam Larson (03:27):
It is super important. And you talked about
like the fourteen hours, youknow, that fourteen hours is it
adds up, you know, as youmentioned, you know, so we're
when we're we're looking atautomation, obviously automation
speeds things up, You know,which is great, which is
wonderful. But, you know, how doyou keep up with that,
especially when you have tointegrate with other systems?
And there's there can be a lotof challenges going from
(03:48):
checking four or five differentsystems to an automated type
system. What is that?
What does that transition looklike?
John Rubinetti (03:55):
Yeah. And I think when you think about
speed, right? Speed isn't justabout a faster transaction,
right? It's about freeing upthose finance folks to focus on
the cash flow, the reducingerrors, risk for the company.
Right.
And so, when I think about theintegration there, it is the
(04:16):
difference between what we'llsay is looking digital versus
actually being digital. Right.And so, you know, when you have
a siloed ERP or, you know, thebanking systems, right. That are
disconnected, right. They're notpart of the flow.
Those are, that's where thepitfalls come. Right. And, and
so, yes, you could use a newpayment type, but if you don't
(04:42):
have the following data, youdon't have the ability to kind
of match prior. And so when wethink about, you know, we'll
take receivables for a second orour three sixty plus platform.
What that does is it pulls allof those different types, the
payment types of credit card,this ACH, the wire, the check,
(05:03):
which is a big big deal, right?
You got still 40% of B2B isstill check. And so when you can
have one place to pull that inand for a finance person to
focus there, that's theintegration that you need. And
we're trying to do it so thatthey don't have to. We just have
one place to give them andeverything kind of flows through
(05:23):
there. So when we think aboutintegration, we think about
doing that for them.
Same thing with our Payablesolution. It just takes a file
you know, from one of theirsystems and whether it's Intuit,
right? Or, or or just takes thefile, gets in there, makes the
payments, takes it back in. Andso it just makes it more
(05:44):
seamless. So we're trying tooffer a solution that already
does that integration for themand has it so that they don't
have to do it.
Cause you're right. Thatintegration piece is painful for
them. They don't have theresources and the technology. So
it's a cost. And so if we coulddo that for them and deliver a
comprehensive solution to a midmarket company, it's very
(06:04):
beneficial to them because theimplementation is not as
complex.
Adam Larson (06:08):
So you talk a lot about the end state. When
somebody gets to that point ofthey're integrated, they're
going well and they can focus onthe things they're supposed to
focus on. Can you talk a lot alittle bit what it's like when
you work with organizations,when you're making that
transition? How is it what is itlike taking somebody who's so
used to checking things, doingthe paper checks, doing those
things and trying to transitionto that? Like how is it moving
(06:29):
that system?
Because in today's day and age,some of us hear that and
probably like what people arestill using checks. But as you
said, 40%, I've talked to otherAP people and they're like,
yeah, a lot of people are stillusing checks and we got to get
out of that. But What's it likemaking that transition and how
can you prepare teams for that?
John Rubinetti (06:44):
Yeah, you know, and when I talk to my folks,
about how to set up that initialcall, right? It's it's, you
know, when you're talking to anAP or an AR person, you know,
they're thinking in their mindthat their job's in jeopardy.
And I totally get it. I spent anumber of years as a consultant,
so I understand when you walkin, people go, they're on edge,
(07:07):
they're not maybe astransparent. And so, when we
talk to the CFO, right.
Or, in some of the smallercompanies, maybe it's not a big
team, right. But it is still ateam. And when you talk about
what the benefits are and you'retransparent about what really
they could be doing versus allthose manual things and make
(07:28):
them feel part of the processand part of helping the process
because, you know, the goalshouldn't be to just remove
people because now you have aneasy automated system. You still
need those folks. Financebrains, right?
And the schooling and thetraining that they go through,
there's a reason for it. Now Ilove my CFO. She's fantastic
because she thinks the way Idon't. Right? And she helps me.
(07:51):
And so these folks are valuable,but you need to make sure that
they're part of the process andfeel like there's you're you're
improving their life. Right? Andtheir stuff so that they could
do more for the company. Andthat, that sounds like a cliche,
but honestly, no mid marketcompany wants to, you know, rid
of people. They want to justoptimize people because they
(08:13):
know they need the work.
They know they have intellectualcapital, about the business and
the years of doing it. Butgetting them to kind of be on
the same page is, is, isimportant. And part of the
discovery process will call it,I like to call it a sales
process. We're not trying tosell you anything. We're trying
to help your business.
Adam Larson (08:33):
So it was like the cough was like, I was like, I
was like trying to see if it wasgoing to come and then I'm going
take a sip of water here.
John Rubinetti (08:39):
I
Adam Larson (08:40):
think that's great advice, except she bringing the
right stakeholders in,especially when you're working
on a project like this, becausethe folks who've been doing the
paper checks have been doing themanual work. They know the
process inside and out so theycan look at an automated system.
So, well, actually we're missingthis part. How do we get that in
crew or in there? And that thatinput is so valuable, especially
when you're implementing a newsystem like that.
John Rubinetti (09:02):
Well, and it also helps when you do implement
it because, you know, as opposedto them holding back some of
that stuff, but you're right.They know the ins and outs. They
know, you know, Sally from thiscompany is going to call them,
right? Yeah. Like they know Andwhat she's going to ask, she's
going to say, I need thisinformation.
Well, if we can make it so thatshe sees that, we both sides.
(09:25):
And I talked about on anotherone, creating what I call a win
win win. It's a win for thecompany, but it's also a win for
the supplier or your payer,whoever it is. If there's good
communication there and goodunderstanding of what they need
and what you need. I always sayif we sell something to a
company, but they don't reallytake into consideration how
(09:47):
their payers or how theirsuppliers utilize it, well, then
we're only fixing part of theprocess because there's still
going to be pain there.
And so that's why when we liketo do that, we like to talk
about the whole process. Talkabout your relationship with the
suppliers, talk about yourpayment terms and what you're
trying to do because then youcan start to understand you're
(10:11):
not just solving your issues,but they may be calling you for
a couple times a month andthey're asking for the same
information if you could affect.So that's the kind of stuff
where those folks, that's why Isay those folks are so valuable
because you're right. They knowthis process inside and out. So
Adam Larson (10:26):
speaking of them knowing their customers really
well, what about if you havecustomers who are resistant, who
are saying, I only want to dopaper checks till, you know,
this I'm insisting this is whatI have to do, but in a modern
world, you know, can thosethings coexist still? Like how
can that still work?
John Rubinetti (10:40):
Yeah, it's funny because you know, again, I,
everybody wants to talk aboutreal time payments and not being
a better payment, you know, andautoma own digitizing the
payment. Well, if you don'tdigitize the supplemental
information that's needed toreconcile and to get the
exceptions, you're really onlydigitizing part of the process.
(11:01):
So I like to kind of talk tothose folks to say, look, first
thing we got to do is identifythe manual gaps, identify where
you touch it. Don't worry aboutthe payment type first. Just
let's talk about what you do,how you receive it and where it
goes.
Because the reason checks arestill utilized so much is
(11:24):
because of the supplementaldata, right? Like when it's
through a lockbox, you have thataccess, so you have it there.
Right. And so it may not just beabout getting rid of checks.
It's just about, can you get thesame data and the same flow and
be able to manage exceptions byutilizing other payment types?
And from our perspective, yes,we are the 110 old original
(11:47):
check company. So we don't wantto see checks leave tomorrow.
They're not going to, but wealso want to help our customers.
We want to control that flow tosay, Hey, we have a tool that if
you do ACH, we can pull in thatdata so you can match it up
sooner. Same thing with card,right?
So we're creating a tool basedon kind of what we know about
(12:09):
the check flow process and whyremittance data is so important.
And we're then utilizing it in away to pull in all the other
payment types. And then we couldsay, Hey, if you want to reduce
checks, here's the way to do itbecause you want to push them to
the other payment types that youalready received. And it can be,
you you can utilize the systemto check exceptions first,
(12:31):
right. And do matching and thosekinds of things automated.
So you're not picking up andlooking at three different
spreadsheets to try to matchpayments or pull an email that
has, you know, the remittancedata from the card payment.
Right? Those are things thatthat flow is so important. So
it's less about this specificpayment type because we enable
(12:53):
all those rails and pull theminto one place to automate the
process, not just the payment.Gotcha.
That's what I like thinkingabout.
Adam Larson (13:03):
Yeah. Because it's like some people will still want
to use that and they haveautomated ways to send checks
that it almost feels like it'sit's digital, but it's like
everything feels automated. Butsome people have that system and
it works well for them. And soyou want to be able to be able
to take all those types ofpayments and still automate your
side of it as much as possible.Right.
(13:23):
Exactly. It's alright. Sorry.Just need to get my thoughts
because I realized I'm like,after I coughed, was like, wait,
I just lost my train of thought.And so I'm like, okay, where was
I thinking about going?
And that's the worst when
John Rubinetti (13:33):
you're in
Adam Larson (13:33):
the middle of a conversation, but we'll get it.
Actually, this is all right. Sowe talked about integration. We
kind of were touching on likethe digital modernization kind
of topic a little bit, right? Wewere talking about that.
You know, so we've talked about,you know, getting your system
automated and the importance ofthat and how and how how you can
still coexist with some, youknow, older techniques, but you
(13:55):
can still bring it all into anautomatization and you can still
bring it to a nice, you know,automation ecosystem within your
platform, within your withinyour within your tech stack to
make sure that it flows reallynicely, you know? And so I think
I think all those I think we'vekind of outlined that. But as
we're looking at, you know, thatquestion is not working. Okay,
(14:16):
sorry. I don't know.
Okay, what do you mean by modernpayment rails in that document
they sent me? Because I feellike I'm not saying something
like, I I feel like I wasn'tframing the question right to
talk about modern payment rails.
John Rubinetti (14:27):
Okay. So they were kinda saying what steps
should businesses take to trulyoptimize modern payment rails
like RTP? Kind of what I wassaying earlier. Right? Yeah.
We're not, we, you know, Deluxe,we're not about, you know,
keeping payment types out.Right? So we want all the modern
payment types. We want
Adam Larson (14:47):
make sure
John Rubinetti (14:47):
is that the flow of the supporting data, the
reconciliation piece, right? Thethings that have to be matched
in order to go. Like, that'swhere for us, you know, we
standardize across all thedifferent, rails. All right. I
get it.
Adam Larson (15:07):
I understand. Yeah, that makes sense now. All right.
For some reason it wasn'tclicking in
John Rubinetti (15:11):
my head again. I knew
Adam Larson (15:12):
what the question wasn't quite framing right. But
now I know I, now I can knowwhere to go. Okay.
John Rubinetti (15:17):
Yeah. Good. And I always say like, that's why I
say like, everybody wants totalk about fast, real time
payments and fed now and all ofthose things. But if, if you're
just introducing a new way topay and another system that you
got to go in and it's not fullyintegrated into the tool, it
doesn't matter. Right?
(15:38):
Yeah. So that's, that's kind ofhow that's why we'd like to
think about it differently.Yeah. All right. All right.
Adam Larson (15:44):
I get it. That makes sense. Okay. You know,
we've covered the importance ofautomation and how important it
is to integrate it within yoursystems and, you know, and how
gosh, why is my I'll start onemore time. Sorry.
It's just it's that day. This islike I'm traveling starting
tomorrow for business and likethere's a lot of things and I'm
like, I got to focus in and I'mhere. I'm here with you, John. I
(16:06):
know you are. So we focused alot on the importance of how
automation will work will willrevolutionize how you work
within internal systems.
But as as technology continuesto change in advance, as there's
many different payment optionsgo out there, you know, I'm sure
someday businesses will come toyou and say, hey, can I pay this
invoice with Bitcoin or whateverwhatever newest thing is out
(16:28):
there, you know, businesses?Yeah, exactly. How can
businesses really kind of beprepared for for those types of
questions, especially when youhave an automation service and
process? But then maybe there'sa new system and like, hey, it
doesn't integrate properly.There's so many different
situations and examples I'm surewe could give.
John Rubinetti (16:44):
Yeah. Well, and look, I think payment is a space
that everybody's trying to getinto, right? If fintechs out
there offer types of automationand trying to help businesses,
Right? And they're trying todirect them honestly to payment
types that work better for them.Right?
At Deluxe, we don't think aboutit that way. We think about kind
(17:05):
of modernizing and automatingall the rails into one place to
to allow for, you know, theautomation of the process, not
just the payment piece. And so,you know, when we talk to
customers about what thissolution is and they say, well,
what about this? What aboutBitcoin? What about all the
newer types?
(17:26):
What's next? Well, we're we'vebuilt a platform to easily be
able to add different paymenttypes into our flow. So we're
thinking ahead. We thought aheadabout our solution because our
solution is this modern stacktechnology that allows for easy
integration with APIs. And sowe've built it to be able to
(17:49):
say, okay, we have these thingstoday.
Well, tomorrow there's three newones. We have an easy way to
pull them in. So what my adviceto businesses out there and
folks in the AP and AR is lookfor a more comprehensive
solution, a solution that canhelp grow with you and grow with
the changing times. Many thingsjust kind of solve the problem
(18:12):
right there, but let's move allyour payments to card so that
you can get, you know, pointsand those kinds of things.
That's great.
But at some point you look atthat and go, that's a little bit
expensive for me as a mid marketcompany. Maybe there's a better
way. Maybe there's a cheaperway. And, you know, I'm not
looking at charging by the timewe're, we do it differently. And
(18:34):
so when you think about thistype of solution that fits
within what you have today, butis also scalable for tomorrow.
That's how we think about oursolution, both of them. And so,
you know, they they they'remeant to solve for your needs,
not my needs. You being thecustomer.
Adam Larson (18:54):
Yes. Yeah. I like that, you know, looking for a
solution that really can growwith you. And as I'm as I was as
you were saying that, it made meit made me want to kind of just
pick your brain a little bit.You know, if somebody is
listening to this conversation,they're like, you know what?
We don't have a lot ofautomation or AR. This is
something I want to look into.You know, obviously they could
look at Deluxe, but, you know,if they want to you know, a lot
(19:15):
of times you can't just look atjust one company. You got to
look at others. What are somequestions you should be asking
the AR automation company that,you know, that really can kind
of get to the nitty gritty ofwhat they should be looking for?
What are some things they shouldbe looking for in organizations
when they're looking at possiblecompanies?
John Rubinetti (19:30):
Solutions. They're, you know, first thing
you kind of don't want somethingjust sitting on your platform
that then has to be upgraded,right? So you want to think
about something that's neutralkind of sit, you know, lot of
people talk about the cloud.There's a lot of things
happening in the cloud, but, youknow, a solution that is there
where I can update it, I can addthose enhancements, I can make
(19:54):
tweaks to it so that I don'thave to push them to you and you
have to do them. So you wantsomething that allows you the
flexibility to add and grow.
You got to remember thesetechnologies are new. They're
changing so quickly. So you kindof take something in into your
environment, just the updating,the cost, the tech resources. So
(20:19):
you want something that minimalimplementation, minimal tech
costs, minimal ongoing costs. Sothose are things that I would
highly recommend that you askthose questions about and then
ask about the roadmap.
What do we, what do you see asnext? I'm happy to talk about
real time payments and Bitcoinand stablecoin and all the rest
(20:39):
of them. Because as a paymentscompany, that's what we're
thinking about. We're not justthinking about, well, we were
merchant services provider and acheck provider. So we only think
about those two payment types.
We think about them all and wehave to because that's the
solution that we want toprovide. Right. And we want to
provide it to our partners, likeour bank partners that sell our
products, to, to their customersand we sell direct. So that's
(21:04):
the way we think about it. Butthat's what I would highly
recommend to someone if you'reif you're asking about a
solution, make sure it's it'snot something you have to load
on, you have to maintain, youhave to update and and upgrade
and and because that's wherethey get you.
They want those additional costsso, you know, they can monetize
(21:24):
everything going forward. Wedon't think about it that way.
Adam Larson (21:27):
Yeah. Are there ways that you can internally
prepare your team before youstart an automation project?
John Rubinetti (21:32):
Yes, absolutely. I think, you know, pitfalls that
I've seen, right, are where youdon't really have that kind of
kickoff meeting as a team tosay, let's identify all of our
manual processes. What are wedoing? Sal, tell me what you do,
right? Or Ben, tell me what youdo every day and where they
(21:55):
could say, well, I take in thisfile, I have to go find the
email receipt for this.
Cause when you get everything onthe table and you start to put
plot and say, oh wow, we havefive systems we go in. It's
actually not three, it's five.And we have a check process that
(22:15):
we get some good data, but is itin the, have that session, have
that session that says, let'sidentify all the things that
we're doing that we know we cando more efficiently. Then start
asking your question. What wouldyou do with that time?
Right. If you had some data, ifyou had some insight into how
you got paid, who paid you, whattime they paid you, and you
(22:37):
could start saying, oh, I canincrease my DSO or decrease. And
you can then start to work onthose and have better
relationships with yoursuppliers. And so if you map out
kind of what are the manualprocesses, what are the things
that you'd like to spend moretime doing for the company? And
then how do you bring that alltogether?
(23:00):
That's that to me are thepitfalls. People miss that
piece. Right. Maybe the CFOsays, Hey, I saw a great demo or
spoke to my banker and they gaveme, they told me they can help
automate. Okay.
Well, what are you automatingfirst? And bankers would, you
know, they might be a little bitpushy this to say, Hey, I can,
course we know that I know mysolution works for everybody.
(23:21):
Right. I know it does. But yougot to get them to kind of make
sure they recognize it's there.
And when you do that, that'swhen people go, wow, I really
do. Many people haven't plottedtheir time to say, wow, I do
spend fourteen hours a month.Right? Like they just do, like
you said, machines because theyknow how to get this stuff done
(23:43):
to make their month end quarterend. Right.
Bringing those folks together,and really understanding what
the processes are before you gotry to automate them.
Adam Larson (23:55):
Is that, that sounds like sound advice for
any, any anywhere within yourorganization, whether it's APAR,
whether it's you're looking atERP systems or looking at how
you budget, you know, do thatprocess because have a chance
you have a chance to look at allyour processes and find, hey, is
there a better way to do this?Can we save time regardless of
whether we're automatingsomething or not? It's very like
(24:18):
it's something that we shouldall be doing just in everyday
life, really.
John Rubinetti (24:22):
Yeah. And most midsize companies, it's hard for
them because they are I mean,they're they're they're not
they're not overly staffed.They're skeleton crew. And so to
take a step back, maybe theycould only do it on a Saturday.
But you know what?
Maybe that is what you need todo just to get a view because
(24:59):
you get to see like they're jackof all trades. They're like,
they're doing multiple things.And so they don't have that
second to step back and, youknow, say, you know what, let me
look at how I do this. And soany one of these companies, to
fix it.
Adam Larson (25:17):
When we were preparing for this, this
conversation, you know, onething that we were talking about
is like modern tools versusadopting modern thinking. And I
figured it'd be a nice, likekind of way to kind of wrap up
our conversation and be maybetalk about the difference
between those and why it'simportant.
John Rubinetti (25:30):
Yeah. So, you know, when you talk in the
industry, right, people talkabout kind of tools and
automation tools don't automate,right? It's the thinking that
transforms. So kind of what Ijust spoke about, right? Which
is stepping back and thinkingabout your process, getting your
people to think about what theydo and how they could do more
(25:54):
effectively.
And here's the thing, there's somany things in today's
environments, right? How people,you know, people never want, you
know, like I said, they werenever gonna not walk into a bank
and do what they, you know, dotheir banking because that was
just something that they did.Well, all of a sudden that's
changed and now there's easierways to do that. So people are
adopting changing ways. You justhave to kind of bring them back
(26:16):
to think about that.
Because modern finance is aboutshifting from the task execution
to the decision enablement sideof it. That's what we're trying
to do at Modern Finance, isreally help them not just do
what they do to get stuff done,but really how do they do it and
(26:37):
how insights into that can helpthem. And so it's a mindset
shift. And as I said, in a midmarket company, it's difficult
because you got people doingmultiple jobs or part time,
they're part time AR, part timeAP. So, they're just doing stuff
you know, to get, keep thebusiness running, to get the
(26:58):
payment in the door, right, toget cash flow.
But, you know, I think gettingthe CFOs to get their teams to
think like that, getting thefolks in AP and AR, there's
better ways. How do we utilizethe data better? Is there
something out there that helpsintegrate AI? Yes, there is. We
actually have it.
(27:19):
Getting them to acknowledgethat, getting that mind shift to
that modern thinking of what's,what's modern finance really to
a mid sized company and it'sinsights and you got to get
there.
Adam Larson (27:33):
Yeah. And sometimes the smaller organizations take a
little bit longer to get to thatmore modern thinking because
they're just set in their ways.What's working is working and
they don't want to they don'twant to mess it up. But
sometimes you fall behind if youkeep doing what's always worked.
John Rubinetti (27:46):
Yes. Because again, how fast this technology,
right. And the advancements arechanging. You used to be able to
get away with that because youcan keep doing that for a period
of time, but because it'schanging so fast, you know, you
could be left behind now.That's, that's worrisome.
And again, for someone who grewup with small businesses and mid
(28:08):
market companies that are thebackbone of this country, you
want them to thrive. You wantthem to succeed. And so there is
a lot of manual process thatthey could get away with. They
can't go on forward. And so theydon't want to be left behind.
Adam Larson (28:24):
They really don't. Well, John, it's been an
absolute pleasure having you onthe podcast and chatting about
this.
I hope our audience has gottenas much out of it as I have. And
just thank you so much forcoming on.
John Rubinetti (28:34):
Thanks, Adam. Appreciate it. Thanks for having
me.
Announcer (28:37):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
Welcome back to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam
Larson. And today, I'm joined byJohn Rubinetti, president of b
two b payments at Deluxe to talkabout one of the hottest topics
in finance, automation inaccounts payable and accounts
receivable. John brings a wealthof experience and some striking
stats like the fact that 71% ofmid market companies haven't
automated their AP or AR losingvaluable time each month.
(00:29):
Together we explore why manualprocesses are still so
widespread and the biggestbarriers to automating and how
to make the leap to moreefficient systems even when your
team or customers are used tothe old ways.
We also cover what to look forin automation solutions that can
grow with your business andhandle whatever the future of
payments might bring. If you'relooking to modernize your
finance processes and free upmore time for what really
(00:51):
matters, this episode is foryou. Let's get started. Well,
John, I'm really excited to haveyou on the podcast today. And
today we're going be reallyfocusing on AP accounts payable,
accounts receivable and thatautomation.
And, you know, as our listenersknow, they're all accountant,
(01:12):
accounting and financeprofessionals. You know, it's
essential for managing yourcompany's cash flow for your
financial health. It's like aliability. It's a list on your
on your on your reports. And yougot to you know, automation is
super important.
And so maybe we could start alittle bit about talking about
why are we talking? Why is thisa topic for a podcast, AP and AR
automation?
John Rubinetti (01:31):
Yeah, look, from my perspective, right, I've been
talking about this for the pastyear. We did some studies around
mid market companies, right, andwhat percent have AP or AR
automation. And the numbers wereastounding. 71% of both. We did
it for AR, we did it for AP.
71% of mid market companies donot have an automated AP or AR.
(01:56):
They are spending fourteen hoursa month manually reconciled,
into three or four differentsystems to pull information
together. So when you talk aboutkind of why it's so important
for them, cash flow, they'respending more time reconciling
different payment types thatthey get and making payments
(02:17):
than they are doing the thingsthat they should be doing, which
is better cash flow. Using thedata better. Right.
And so when I look at thosestatistics and when you take
that fourteen hours a month,that's one month of productivity
loss. So these are mid marketcompanies. They need and cash
(02:38):
flow is so important to them. Iwould much rather have them
spend thirty days worth oflooking at the, you know, making
sure that they have the rightnegotiated payment terms with
suppliers or, you know, arereceiving payments the right
way. Like that's where theyshould be spending time.
So that's why for me, I've beentalking about, everybody wants
(02:58):
to talk about AI and everybodywants to talk about all the
fancy things and real timepayments and all of that. But I
want to just talk about thebasics because many of these mid
market companies need thebasics, just need to automate
flows and have one place to go.And so at Deluxe, that's what
we're trying to deliver. Andthat's what we have with our
(03:19):
three sixty plus receivablesplatform and our DPX plus
payments platform. So that'skind of why it's important to
me.
Adam Larson (03:27):
It is super important. And you talked about
like the fourteen hours, youknow, that fourteen hours is it
adds up, you know, as youmentioned, you know, so we're
when we're we're looking atautomation, obviously automation
speeds things up, You know,which is great, which is
wonderful. But, you know, how doyou keep up with that,
especially when you have tointegrate with other systems?
And there's there can be a lotof challenges going from
(03:48):
checking four or five differentsystems to an automated type
system. What is that?
What does that transition looklike?
John Rubinetti (03:55):
Yeah. And I think when you think about
speed, right? Speed isn't justabout a faster transaction,
right? It's about freeing upthose finance folks to focus on
the cash flow, the reducingerrors, risk for the company.
Right.
And so, when I think about theintegration there, it is the
(04:16):
difference between what we'llsay is looking digital versus
actually being digital. Right.And so, you know, when you have
a siloed ERP or, you know, thebanking systems, right. That are
disconnected, right. They're notpart of the flow.
Those are, that's where thepitfalls come. Right. And, and
so, yes, you could use a newpayment type, but if you don't
(04:42):
have the following data, youdon't have the ability to kind
of match prior. And so when wethink about, you know, we'll
take receivables for a second orour three sixty plus platform.
What that does is it pulls allof those different types, the
payment types of credit card,this ACH, the wire, the check,
(05:03):
which is a big big deal, right?
You got still 40% of B2B isstill check. And so when you can
have one place to pull that inand for a finance person to
focus there, that's theintegration that you need. And
we're trying to do it so thatthey don't have to. We just have
one place to give them andeverything kind of flows through
(05:23):
there. So when we think aboutintegration, we think about
doing that for them.
Same thing with our Payablesolution. It just takes a file
you know, from one of theirsystems and whether it's Intuit,
right? Or, or or just takes thefile, gets in there, makes the
payments, takes it back in. Andso it just makes it more
(05:44):
seamless. So we're trying tooffer a solution that already
does that integration for themand has it so that they don't
have to do it.
Cause you're right. Thatintegration piece is painful for
them. They don't have theresources and the technology. So
it's a cost. And so if we coulddo that for them and deliver a
comprehensive solution to a midmarket company, it's very
(06:04):
beneficial to them because theimplementation is not as
complex.
Adam Larson (06:08):
So you talk a lot about the end state. When
somebody gets to that point ofthey're integrated, they're
going well and they can focus onthe things they're supposed to
focus on. Can you talk a lot alittle bit what it's like when
you work with organizations,when you're making that
transition? How is it what is itlike taking somebody who's so
used to checking things, doingthe paper checks, doing those
things and trying to transitionto that? Like how is it moving
(06:29):
that system?
Because in today's day and age,some of us hear that and
probably like what people arestill using checks. But as you
said, 40%, I've talked to otherAP people and they're like,
yeah, a lot of people are stillusing checks and we got to get
out of that. But What's it likemaking that transition and how
can you prepare teams for that?
John Rubinetti (06:44):
Yeah, you know, and when I talk to my folks,
about how to set up that initialcall, right? It's it's, you
know, when you're talking to anAP or an AR person, you know,
they're thinking in their mindthat their job's in jeopardy.
And I totally get it. I spent anumber of years as a consultant,
so I understand when you walkin, people go, they're on edge,
(07:07):
they're not maybe astransparent. And so, when we
talk to the CFO, right.
Or, in some of the smallercompanies, maybe it's not a big
team, right. But it is still ateam. And when you talk about
what the benefits are and you'retransparent about what really
they could be doing versus allthose manual things and make
(07:28):
them feel part of the processand part of helping the process
because, you know, the goalshouldn't be to just remove
people because now you have aneasy automated system. You still
need those folks. Financebrains, right?
And the schooling and thetraining that they go through,
there's a reason for it. Now Ilove my CFO. She's fantastic
because she thinks the way Idon't. Right? And she helps me.
(07:51):
And so these folks are valuable,but you need to make sure that
they're part of the process andfeel like there's you're you're
improving their life. Right? Andtheir stuff so that they could
do more for the company. Andthat, that sounds like a cliche,
but honestly, no mid marketcompany wants to, you know, rid
of people. They want to justoptimize people because they
(08:13):
know they need the work.
They know they have intellectualcapital, about the business and
the years of doing it. Butgetting them to kind of be on
the same page is, is, isimportant. And part of the
discovery process will call it,I like to call it a sales
process. We're not trying tosell you anything. We're trying
to help your business.
Adam Larson (08:33):
So it was like the cough was like, I was like, I
was like trying to see if it wasgoing to come and then I'm going
take a sip of water here.
John Rubinetti (08:39):
I
Adam Larson (08:40):
think that's great advice, except she bringing the
right stakeholders in,especially when you're working
on a project like this, becausethe folks who've been doing the
paper checks have been doing themanual work. They know the
process inside and out so theycan look at an automated system.
So, well, actually we're missingthis part. How do we get that in
crew or in there? And that thatinput is so valuable, especially
when you're implementing a newsystem like that.
John Rubinetti (09:02):
Well, and it also helps when you do implement
it because, you know, as opposedto them holding back some of
that stuff, but you're right.They know the ins and outs. They
know, you know, Sally from thiscompany is going to call them,
right? Yeah. Like they know Andwhat she's going to ask, she's
going to say, I need thisinformation.
Well, if we can make it so thatshe sees that, we both sides.
(09:25):
And I talked about on anotherone, creating what I call a win
win win. It's a win for thecompany, but it's also a win for
the supplier or your payer,whoever it is. If there's good
communication there and goodunderstanding of what they need
and what you need. I always sayif we sell something to a
company, but they don't reallytake into consideration how
(09:47):
their payers or how theirsuppliers utilize it, well, then
we're only fixing part of theprocess because there's still
going to be pain there.
And so that's why when we liketo do that, we like to talk
about the whole process. Talkabout your relationship with the
suppliers, talk about yourpayment terms and what you're
trying to do because then youcan start to understand you're
(10:11):
not just solving your issues,but they may be calling you for
a couple times a month andthey're asking for the same
information if you could affect.So that's the kind of stuff
where those folks, that's why Isay those folks are so valuable
because you're right. They knowthis process inside and out. So
Adam Larson (10:26):
speaking of them knowing their customers really
well, what about if you havecustomers who are resistant, who
are saying, I only want to dopaper checks till, you know,
this I'm insisting this is whatI have to do, but in a modern
world, you know, can thosethings coexist still? Like how
can that still work?
John Rubinetti (10:40):
Yeah, it's funny because you know, again, I,
everybody wants to talk aboutreal time payments and not being
a better payment, you know, andautoma own digitizing the
payment. Well, if you don'tdigitize the supplemental
information that's needed toreconcile and to get the
exceptions, you're really onlydigitizing part of the process.
(11:01):
So I like to kind of talk tothose folks to say, look, first
thing we got to do is identifythe manual gaps, identify where
you touch it. Don't worry aboutthe payment type first. Just
let's talk about what you do,how you receive it and where it
goes.
Because the reason checks arestill utilized so much is
(11:24):
because of the supplementaldata, right? Like when it's
through a lockbox, you have thataccess, so you have it there.
Right. And so it may not just beabout getting rid of checks.
It's just about, can you get thesame data and the same flow and
be able to manage exceptions byutilizing other payment types?
And from our perspective, yes,we are the 110 old original
(11:47):
check company. So we don't wantto see checks leave tomorrow.
They're not going to, but wealso want to help our customers.
We want to control that flow tosay, Hey, we have a tool that if
you do ACH, we can pull in thatdata so you can match it up
sooner. Same thing with card,right?
So we're creating a tool basedon kind of what we know about
(12:09):
the check flow process and whyremittance data is so important.
And we're then utilizing it in away to pull in all the other
payment types. And then we couldsay, Hey, if you want to reduce
checks, here's the way to do itbecause you want to push them to
the other payment types that youalready received. And it can be,
you you can utilize the systemto check exceptions first,
(12:31):
right. And do matching and thosekinds of things automated.
So you're not picking up andlooking at three different
spreadsheets to try to matchpayments or pull an email that
has, you know, the remittancedata from the card payment.
Right? Those are things thatthat flow is so important. So
it's less about this specificpayment type because we enable
(12:53):
all those rails and pull theminto one place to automate the
process, not just the payment.Gotcha.
That's what I like thinkingabout.
Adam Larson (13:03):
Yeah. Because it's like some people will still want
to use that and they haveautomated ways to send checks
that it almost feels like it'sit's digital, but it's like
everything feels automated. Butsome people have that system and
it works well for them. And soyou want to be able to be able
to take all those types ofpayments and still automate your
side of it as much as possible.Right.
(13:23):
Exactly. It's alright. Sorry.Just need to get my thoughts
because I realized I'm like,after I coughed, was like, wait,
I just lost my train of thought.And so I'm like, okay, where was
I thinking about going?
And that's the worst when
John Rubinetti (13:33):
you're in
Adam Larson (13:33):
the middle of a conversation, but we'll get it.
Actually, this is all right. Sowe talked about integration. We
kind of were touching on likethe digital modernization kind
of topic a little bit, right? Wewere talking about that.
You know, so we've talked about,you know, getting your system
automated and the importance ofthat and how and how how you can
still coexist with some, youknow, older techniques, but you
(13:55):
can still bring it all into anautomatization and you can still
bring it to a nice, you know,automation ecosystem within your
platform, within your withinyour within your tech stack to
make sure that it flows reallynicely, you know? And so I think
I think all those I think we'vekind of outlined that. But as
we're looking at, you know, thatquestion is not working. Okay,
(14:16):
sorry. I don't know.
Okay, what do you mean by modernpayment rails in that document
they sent me? Because I feellike I'm not saying something
like, I I feel like I wasn'tframing the question right to
talk about modern payment rails.
John Rubinetti (14:27):
Okay. So they were kinda saying what steps
should businesses take to trulyoptimize modern payment rails
like RTP? Kind of what I wassaying earlier. Right? Yeah.
We're not, we, you know, Deluxe,we're not about, you know,
keeping payment types out.Right? So we want all the modern
payment types. We want
Adam Larson (14:47):
make sure
John Rubinetti (14:47):
is that the flow of the supporting data, the
reconciliation piece, right? Thethings that have to be matched
in order to go. Like, that'swhere for us, you know, we
standardize across all thedifferent, rails. All right. I
get it.
Adam Larson (15:07):
I understand. Yeah, that makes sense now. All right.
For some reason it wasn'tclicking in
John Rubinetti (15:11):
my head again. I knew
Adam Larson (15:12):
what the question wasn't quite framing right. But
now I know I, now I can knowwhere to go. Okay.
John Rubinetti (15:17):
Yeah. Good. And I always say like, that's why I
say like, everybody wants totalk about fast, real time
payments and fed now and all ofthose things. But if, if you're
just introducing a new way topay and another system that you
got to go in and it's not fullyintegrated into the tool, it
doesn't matter. Right?
(15:38):
Yeah. So that's, that's kind ofhow that's why we'd like to
think about it differently.Yeah. All right. All right.
Adam Larson (15:44):
I get it. That makes sense. Okay. You know,
we've covered the importance ofautomation and how important it
is to integrate it within yoursystems and, you know, and how
gosh, why is my I'll start onemore time. Sorry.
It's just it's that day. This islike I'm traveling starting
tomorrow for business and likethere's a lot of things and I'm
like, I got to focus in and I'mhere. I'm here with you, John. I
(16:06):
know you are. So we focused alot on the importance of how
automation will work will willrevolutionize how you work
within internal systems.
But as as technology continuesto change in advance, as there's
many different payment optionsgo out there, you know, I'm sure
someday businesses will come toyou and say, hey, can I pay this
invoice with Bitcoin or whateverwhatever newest thing is out
(16:28):
there, you know, businesses?Yeah, exactly. How can
businesses really kind of beprepared for for those types of
questions, especially when youhave an automation service and
process? But then maybe there'sa new system and like, hey, it
doesn't integrate properly.There's so many different
situations and examples I'm surewe could give.
John Rubinetti (16:44):
Yeah. Well, and look, I think payment is a space
that everybody's trying to getinto, right? If fintechs out
there offer types of automationand trying to help businesses,
Right? And they're trying todirect them honestly to payment
types that work better for them.Right?
At Deluxe, we don't think aboutit that way. We think about kind
(17:05):
of modernizing and automatingall the rails into one place to
to allow for, you know, theautomation of the process, not
just the payment piece. And so,you know, when we talk to
customers about what thissolution is and they say, well,
what about this? What aboutBitcoin? What about all the
newer types?
(17:26):
What's next? Well, we're we'vebuilt a platform to easily be
able to add different paymenttypes into our flow. So we're
thinking ahead. We thought aheadabout our solution because our
solution is this modern stacktechnology that allows for easy
integration with APIs. And sowe've built it to be able to
(17:49):
say, okay, we have these thingstoday.
Well, tomorrow there's three newones. We have an easy way to
pull them in. So what my adviceto businesses out there and
folks in the AP and AR is lookfor a more comprehensive
solution, a solution that canhelp grow with you and grow with
the changing times. Many thingsjust kind of solve the problem
(18:12):
right there, but let's move allyour payments to card so that
you can get, you know, pointsand those kinds of things.
That's great.
But at some point you look atthat and go, that's a little bit
expensive for me as a mid marketcompany. Maybe there's a better
way. Maybe there's a cheaperway. And, you know, I'm not
looking at charging by the timewe're, we do it differently. And
(18:34):
so when you think about thistype of solution that fits
within what you have today, butis also scalable for tomorrow.
That's how we think about oursolution, both of them. And so,
you know, they they they'remeant to solve for your needs,
not my needs. You being thecustomer.
Adam Larson (18:54):
Yes. Yeah. I like that, you know, looking for a
solution that really can growwith you. And as I'm as I was as
you were saying that, it made meit made me want to kind of just
pick your brain a little bit.You know, if somebody is
listening to this conversation,they're like, you know what?
We don't have a lot ofautomation or AR. This is
something I want to look into.You know, obviously they could
look at Deluxe, but, you know,if they want to you know, a lot
(19:15):
of times you can't just look atjust one company. You got to
look at others. What are somequestions you should be asking
the AR automation company that,you know, that really can kind
of get to the nitty gritty ofwhat they should be looking for?
What are some things they shouldbe looking for in organizations
when they're looking at possiblecompanies?
John Rubinetti (19:30):
Solutions. They're, you know, first thing
you kind of don't want somethingjust sitting on your platform
that then has to be upgraded,right? So you want to think
about something that's neutralkind of sit, you know, lot of
people talk about the cloud.There's a lot of things
happening in the cloud, but, youknow, a solution that is there
where I can update it, I can addthose enhancements, I can make
(19:54):
tweaks to it so that I don'thave to push them to you and you
have to do them. So you wantsomething that allows you the
flexibility to add and grow.
You got to remember thesetechnologies are new. They're
changing so quickly. So you kindof take something in into your
environment, just the updating,the cost, the tech resources. So
(20:19):
you want something that minimalimplementation, minimal tech
costs, minimal ongoing costs. Sothose are things that I would
highly recommend that you askthose questions about and then
ask about the roadmap.
What do we, what do you see asnext? I'm happy to talk about
real time payments and Bitcoinand stablecoin and all the rest
(20:39):
of them. Because as a paymentscompany, that's what we're
thinking about. We're not justthinking about, well, we were
merchant services provider and acheck provider. So we only think
about those two payment types.
We think about them all and wehave to because that's the
solution that we want toprovide. Right. And we want to
provide it to our partners, likeour bank partners that sell our
products, to, to their customersand we sell direct. So that's
(21:04):
the way we think about it. Butthat's what I would highly
recommend to someone if you'reif you're asking about a
solution, make sure it's it'snot something you have to load
on, you have to maintain, youhave to update and and upgrade
and and because that's wherethey get you.
They want those additional costsso, you know, they can monetize
(21:24):
everything going forward. Wedon't think about it that way.
Adam Larson (21:27):
Yeah. Are there ways that you can internally
prepare your team before youstart an automation project?
John Rubinetti (21:32):
Yes, absolutely. I think, you know, pitfalls that
I've seen, right, are where youdon't really have that kind of
kickoff meeting as a team tosay, let's identify all of our
manual processes. What are wedoing? Sal, tell me what you do,
right? Or Ben, tell me what youdo every day and where they
(21:55):
could say, well, I take in thisfile, I have to go find the
email receipt for this.
Cause when you get everything onthe table and you start to put
plot and say, oh wow, we havefive systems we go in. It's
actually not three, it's five.And we have a check process that
(22:15):
we get some good data, but is itin the, have that session, have
that session that says, let'sidentify all the things that
we're doing that we know we cando more efficiently. Then start
asking your question. What wouldyou do with that time?
Right. If you had some data, ifyou had some insight into how
you got paid, who paid you, whattime they paid you, and you
(22:37):
could start saying, oh, I canincrease my DSO or decrease. And
you can then start to work onthose and have better
relationships with yoursuppliers. And so if you map out
kind of what are the manualprocesses, what are the things
that you'd like to spend moretime doing for the company? And
then how do you bring that alltogether?
(23:00):
That's that to me are thepitfalls. People miss that
piece. Right. Maybe the CFOsays, Hey, I saw a great demo or
spoke to my banker and they gaveme, they told me they can help
automate. Okay.
Well, what are you automatingfirst? And bankers would, you
know, they might be a little bitpushy this to say, Hey, I can,
course we know that I know mysolution works for everybody.
(23:21):
Right. I know it does. But yougot to get them to kind of make
sure they recognize it's there.
And when you do that, that'swhen people go, wow, I really
do. Many people haven't plottedtheir time to say, wow, I do
spend fourteen hours a month.Right? Like they just do, like
you said, machines because theyknow how to get this stuff done
(23:43):
to make their month end quarterend. Right.
Bringing those folks together,and really understanding what
the processes are before you gotry to automate them.
Adam Larson (23:55):
Is that, that sounds like sound advice for
any, any anywhere within yourorganization, whether it's APAR,
whether it's you're looking atERP systems or looking at how
you budget, you know, do thatprocess because have a chance
you have a chance to look at allyour processes and find, hey, is
there a better way to do this?Can we save time regardless of
whether we're automatingsomething or not? It's very like
(24:18):
it's something that we shouldall be doing just in everyday
life, really.
John Rubinetti (24:22):
Yeah. And most midsize companies, it's hard for
them because they are I mean,they're they're they're not
they're not overly staffed.They're skeleton crew. And so to
take a step back, maybe theycould only do it on a Saturday.
But you know what?
Maybe that is what you need todo just to get a view because
(24:59):
you get to see like they're jackof all trades. They're like,
they're doing multiple things.And so they don't have that
second to step back and, youknow, say, you know what, let me
look at how I do this. And soany one of these companies, to
fix it.
Adam Larson (25:17):
When we were preparing for this, this
conversation, you know, onething that we were talking about
is like modern tools versusadopting modern thinking. And I
figured it'd be a nice, likekind of way to kind of wrap up
our conversation and be maybetalk about the difference
between those and why it'simportant.
John Rubinetti (25:30):
Yeah. So, you know, when you talk in the
industry, right, people talkabout kind of tools and
automation tools don't automate,right? It's the thinking that
transforms. So kind of what Ijust spoke about, right? Which
is stepping back and thinkingabout your process, getting your
people to think about what theydo and how they could do more
(25:54):
effectively.
And here's the thing, there's somany things in today's
environments, right? How people,you know, people never want, you
know, like I said, they werenever gonna not walk into a bank
and do what they, you know, dotheir banking because that was
just something that they did.Well, all of a sudden that's
changed and now there's easierways to do that. So people are
adopting changing ways. You justhave to kind of bring them back
(26:16):
to think about that.
Because modern finance is aboutshifting from the task execution
to the decision enablement sideof it. That's what we're trying
to do at Modern Finance, isreally help them not just do
what they do to get stuff done,but really how do they do it and
(26:37):
how insights into that can helpthem. And so it's a mindset
shift. And as I said, in a midmarket company, it's difficult
because you got people doingmultiple jobs or part time,
they're part time AR, part timeAP. So, they're just doing stuff
you know, to get, keep thebusiness running, to get the
(26:58):
payment in the door, right, toget cash flow.
But, you know, I think gettingthe CFOs to get their teams to
think like that, getting thefolks in AP and AR, there's
better ways. How do we utilizethe data better? Is there
something out there that helpsintegrate AI? Yes, there is. We
actually have it.
(27:19):
Getting them to acknowledgethat, getting that mind shift to
that modern thinking of what's,what's modern finance really to
a mid sized company and it'sinsights and you got to get
there.
Adam Larson (27:33):
Yeah. And sometimes the smaller organizations take a
little bit longer to get to thatmore modern thinking because
they're just set in their ways.What's working is working and
they don't want to they don'twant to mess it up. But
sometimes you fall behind if youkeep doing what's always worked.
John Rubinetti (27:46):
Yes. Because again, how fast this technology,
right. And the advancements arechanging. You used to be able to
get away with that because youcan keep doing that for a period
of time, but because it'schanging so fast, you know, you
could be left behind now.That's, that's worrisome.
And again, for someone who grewup with small businesses and mid
(28:08):
market companies that are thebackbone of this country, you
want them to thrive. You wantthem to succeed. And so there is
a lot of manual process thatthey could get away with. They
can't go on forward. And so theydon't want to be left behind.
Adam Larson (28:24):
They really don't. Well, John, it's been an
absolute pleasure having you onthe podcast and chatting about
this.
I hope our audience has gottenas much out of it as I have. And
just thank you so much forcoming on.
John Rubinetti (28:34):
Thanks, Adam. Appreciate it. Thanks for having
me.
Announcer (28:37):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
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