October 13, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode of Count Me In, host Adam Larson sits down with Elizabeth Lotardo, author of "Leading Yourself," for a candid and refreshing conversation about finding purpose, battling burnout, and navigating real-life work challenges. Elizabeth shares relatable stories and actionable advice for anyone who’s ever wondered how to stay motivated in a less-than-dream job, or how to handle difficult coworkers and demanding bosses. From debunking hustle culture to practical tips on “phoning it in” when you need to, Elizabeth’s insights will have you rethinking what self-leadership actually means. Whether you’re leading a team or just trying to survive Monday, you’ll walk away with tools to boost your mindset, improve your work relationships, and take control—even when everything feels uncertain. Don’t miss this engaging chat packed with wisdom, humor, and the perfect dose of real talk.
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Episode Transcript
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Adam Larson (00:06):
Hey, everyone and welcome back to Count Me In. I'm
your host, Adam Larson, today wehave a special guest for you.
I'm joined by ElizabethLortardo, author of the book
Leading Yourself to talk aboutsomething we all face, how to
take charge of your own mindset,actions, and relationships at
work regardless of our jobtitle. In this conversation,
Elizabeth goes beyond thetypical buzzwords and really
(00:26):
breaks down what it means tolead yourself, especially during
times of uncertainty and change.We dig into how to find purpose
in everyday tasks, how to avoidburning out when work gets
overwhelming, and even how totackle those tricky
relationships with coworkers orwith your boss.
So stick around because thisepisode of Count Me In is all
about turning challenges intoopportunities by leading
(00:47):
yourself starting today. Let'sjump right in. So I'm really
excited to be talking about yourbook, Leading Yourself today. I
really enjoyed, really enjoyedreading the book, and I think it
has a lot of great practicaladvice for leaders, potential
leaders, and even just ingeneral, if even if you don't
(01:08):
have anybody reporting to you,you're leading yourself. You
have to lead yourself to getthrough the day sometimes to get
through jobs, etcetera.
So maybe we can talk about likean overview, like, what is
leading yourself look like inpractice? And maybe what do you
mean by leading yourself? Maybewe can start there.
Elizabeth Lortardo (01:22):
It's core leading yourself to me is taking
ownership of how you think, howyou act, and how you relate to
others regardless of the jobyou're in. And to your point,
whether you're leading a team ofa 100 or whether you are only
leading yourself, we know thatthe ability to self lead is a
predictor of workplace success.So, pausing to ask, what can I
(01:43):
control right now? Even whenthings are swirly is always an
option. And what I hope toexplore in the book is how to do
that.
Adam Larson (01:49):
So, one of the big themes in your book is finding
purpose in a normal job. Youknow, because a lot of times
when you're growing up, you hearpeople, you know, saying, Oh,
what is your dream job? What doyou want to do? You know, find
the thing you love and you'llnever work your day in your
life. And I don't necessarilyagree with that statement
because everything even if youlove doing something, it gets
tiring after a while.
So let's talk a little bitabout, you know, what what does
(02:11):
it mean finding your purpose ina normal job?
Elizabeth Lortardo (02:14):
This notion of purpose is a noble one, but
it has been so overinflated inthe narrative around work. And I
think that is for a couple ofreasons. First, if you've seen
that, like, icky guy, whatevergraphic on LinkedIn where all
the circles come together andwhat you do combines with what
(02:34):
you love, combines with what theworld needs, combined with what
you get paid for, like, it alllooks so perfectly aligned in
this graphic. And the reality isno one has that work experience.
Mhmm.
So to suggest it is settingeveryone up for disappointment.
The second reason we tend tofeel an absence of purpose is
(02:55):
because organizations havegotten the message that, oh, you
know, people want fulfillment intheir jobs. And they advertise
that in recruiting material ontheir website. They say, we have
this really noble mission, andyou you go in with so much
inspiration and then you have todo some kind of boring stuff.
And it feels really disconnectedfrom that.
(03:16):
So to reckon with this, what'sgoing societal, on a cultural
level, this notion of purpose,and you have to feel fulfilled
and you wanna feel inspired whenyou're at work with the reality
of sometimes work is hard andannoying is something I hope to
to accomplish in that chapter ofhow do you find purpose in a
normal job? And how do you foryourself contextualize the task
(03:41):
you're doing every day so theydon't feel meaningless and so
they don't feel transactional?And I think in an accounting
driven profession, that's reallyimportant because the numbers
matter. Right? Thesespreadsheets are of crucial
importance.
And it's easy to lose sight ofthe fact that they help people
sleep at night. They keep peopleout of jail. They enable
(04:03):
businesses to make betterinvestments, to hire, to
innovate in ways they wouldn'thave been able to do otherwise
if they didn't have goodaccounting. It doesn't feel that
way every day. But the more wecan tie ourselves to that ripple
effect, the better we experiencethe job that we have, even when
it's boring.
Adam Larson (04:21):
That's easier said than done. You know, you have a
especially if you have atransactional job like, you
know, you've just entered likethe accounting profession and
you're doing a lot of kind ofthe what they call grunt work,
right? You're doing the stuffthat nobody else wants to do,
that you're kind of learning howto do things. It's really hard
to say, I'm tying myself to agreater purpose now and not
become cynical. How do youmanage that that those waters?
Elizabeth Lortardo (04:42):
So it works even if you're cynical. Your
brain doesn't know thedifference between your own,
like, snarky, sarcastic remarksto yourself and actually
believing it a lot of the time.So the the saying of, like, fake
it till you make it, Amy Cuddyhas some interesting research on
fake it till you become it. Evenif you're like, oh, my job is so
meaningful, your brain is in abetter place with that sarcastic
(05:05):
thought than believing the truethought of my job sucks.
Adam Larson (05:09):
Really?
Elizabeth Lortardo (05:11):
I I don't mean to suggest that, like,
every day you're gonna like, I'mso inspired. But even just once
a day reminding yourself that,hey. I do hundreds of these
reports a day for this businessor for this person. This is
their one. And they are placingtrust in me to do it well.
Like, yourself even if it's forfive minutes on your lunch
break, it does play out overtime in some ways that are
(05:34):
really significant. Wow. But Ican appreciate the skepticism.
Sounds kind of hokey.
Adam Larson (05:41):
It does. And I think this is from somebody
who's kind of become a skepticthe older I've gotten. And so I
when I talk when I think aboutthese things, I always want to
say, let's let's let's look atthis real talk because not every
day is going to be a I'm goingto lead myself to do greater and
better things. And some peoplecan do that, but not everybody
feels that way. And so how doyou like, I I always struggle
with, like, how do you overcomethat?
Elizabeth Lortardo (06:02):
So two things on that. I don't feel
that way. I had to learn it,which is why I was the right
person to write this bookbecause I spent the early part
of my career unhappy,unsatisfied, unengaged, and I
thought that was everyone else'sfault but mine. So I hear you.
The second part of that is,let's say you don't have it in
(06:26):
you, right, to trace your ownripple effect and inspire
yourself.
Read customer testimonials. Theyexist on your company's website.
They exist on social media, thegood ones. But even reading that
can fuel your spirit, even ifyou only partially believe it.
So if it's feeling like, okay,I'm pouring from an empty cup,
right?
I'm skeptic. I don't really havea lot of inspiration to give
(06:46):
myself right now. Let otherpeople do that for you. Your
company no doubt has casestudies and testimonials that
can, even if only partially,help you see your work in
greater context.
Adam Larson (06:58):
Yeah. So in your book, you kind of broke it into
three different parts. You gotmindset, behavior and then
working with others. What do youthink is kind of like the most
important or not the mostimportant? What do you think?
Which of those do you think mostpeople struggle with today? And
why is that?
Elizabeth Lortardo (07:13):
I think people struggle the most with
relationships at the end of thebook, and then they struggle
with behavior, and then theywould say they struggle with
mindset. And most people wouldapproach the work in inverse
order. Right? Dealing with allthe problems of other people and
then dealing with all the thebehavioral things that are
wrong. And then maybe I'll behappy, and my mindset will take
(07:36):
care of itself.
But what we know, what theresearch tells us, our own lived
experience is that the inverseis true. Only when you lock in
your mindset, and only when youreally zoom in on your behavior
is changing your relationshipswith other people possible. So
again, that internal locus ofcontrol versus external locus of
control. If you read my bookbackwards, that is an external
(07:59):
locus of control. To read it inthe way I wrote it, that would
be a self leadership focusedinternal focus.
Adam Larson (08:06):
How do you know which one you are?
Announcer (08:07):
I think
Elizabeth Lortardo (08:07):
we're all kind of an external locus of
control. Even if we don't admitit. I know I certainly am.
Because it's human nature,right? Designed look for threats
in our environment, to thinkabout own behavior and our own,
like, childhood traumas and howthey're showing up at work.
Primarily, we are geared towardsan external locus of control and
(08:30):
making sure, like, we're awareof every threat that's coming
our way. But that doesn't makeus happy.
Adam Larson (08:36):
True. So when you're speaking about threats,
it makes me think of, you know,when you talked about quiet fear
in your book. And so maybe wecould talk a little about, you
know, how fear shows up in ourwork lives especially because
there's a lot of things we can'tcontrol in our work lives. Like
you're maybe only over whateveryour department is, whatever
your team is. You may only beable to control those things,
but there's a lot of especiallywith how fast environments are
(08:58):
changing currently.
Elizabeth Lortardo (09:00):
Right. And the narrative around workplace
uncertainty isn't doing us anyfavors. Everyone is experiencing
layoffs, whether it's youdirectly or whether you know
someone who is. Every company islooking at uncertainty as it
relates to technology and theeconomy. So this is all around
us.
And in a way, recognizing thatit is that everyone is a little
(09:22):
afraid is freeing because itmakes it feel less like you're
doing something wrong becauseyou're nervous.
Adam Larson (09:27):
Mhmm.
Elizabeth Lortardo (09:28):
You have every right to be nervous. But
reckoning with that and workingthrough it is within your
control. And we know that whenyou are able to operate in the
face of fear, you make betterdecisions and you get more
opportunities. The challenge is,and I spoke about this a little
bit, primarily, we are trainedto identify fear and latch onto
(09:48):
it. And our brain has notevolved at the pace our
circumstances have changed.
Right? We're still in kind ofcaveman brain despite working in
an office, which is reallyweird. So it takes proactive
effort on your part to identifyand proactively look for the
upside in a situation. So, yeah,AI, for example, is changing
everything tremendously. There'spredictions of a white collar
(10:10):
recession because of this.
And that 50% or more of entrylevel jobs will be eliminated.
30% or more of middle managementjobs will be eliminated in the
next three years. That is aterrifying statistic.
Adam Larson (10:22):
Yeah.
Elizabeth Lortardo (10:22):
But let's force ourselves to look for a
potential upside, an opportunityfor ourselves in the face of
that. Right? So we know that'scoming. What can we do now? This
is our chance to learn newskills.
This is our chance to get out infront of it and to diversify
ourselves in terms of income.This is our chance to believe
maybe that there's someopportunity for us that is
(10:45):
meaningful on the other side ofthis. Sitting in the ways of all
the possibilities that it couldgo poorly for us isn't really
helpful. Like, it's what yourbrain wants to latch on to. But
staying there costs you a lot.
Adam Larson (10:56):
You know, we were just you were just talking about
how, you know, there's a lot ofchanging happening in
environments and a lot ofcompanies are shrinking, already
shrinking in spite of what couldhappen in the future. And people
are on the verge of burnout. Doyou have like some tips and
pointers for people who can leadthemselves through those
moments? Because the fear isvery real. And if you have more
(11:21):
work piling on top of you, howdo you kind of pick yourself up
out of that in spite ofeverything that's happening?
Elizabeth Lortardo (11:27):
Yeah. How can you reinspire yourself and
be optimistic when you'realready burned out? I think is
Yeah. Right? Yeah.
So some of this is going to be amindset shift, and some of it is
gonna be really practical. I'mnot gonna sit here and be like,
you can positivity think yourway out of too many things to
do. Right? The reality is thevolume of tasks has to decrease
(11:48):
for you to overcome burnout.There has to be more space
carved out.
There is not a list of brainhacks that can reckon with too
much to do simply. So how do youdo that? Some of it is having
conversations with your manager,and that doesn't mean I'm burned
out. I have too much to do. Youcan do this in a way that
doesn't undermine yourself andsay, as I look at the next six
(12:12):
months, what are the mostimportant priorities for our
team?
How do you think I can mostsignificantly contribute to the
objectives of our organization?I'm struggling to prioritize
between x and y. What do youthink is most important? Right?
So this political subtlety oftrying to push things off your
plate is gonna play a factor inreducing your own burnout.
(12:34):
And I also think recognizingyour part in it is crucial. It's
really easy to say, oh, well,calls me at 9PM, and that's why
I'm burned out. Well, who'sanswering the phone? Yeah. And
are you conveying behavioralpatterns?
Are you overestimating theconsequences of not doing that
(12:55):
And taking a hard look in themirror of what have you done to
create these conditions and howcan you undo it?
Adam Larson (13:02):
So I want to talk a little bit about working with
other people because I thinkthat's, you know, it's a big we
all work with other people,whether you are you whether you
are a single person, you know,who has a single person, you
have to work with vendors or youhave to work with in a big
organization. And a lot oftimes, you know, you're not
going to like everybody you workwith. You're going to have
annoying people you work with,you know. So how do you kind of
(13:23):
overcome those those barriers?Because sometimes, you know,
we're human and people annoy usand sometimes you snap at
somebody or sometimes you dothose things.
Not that you should like you canovercome that, but it's how do
you kind of overcome the just Ifeel like I'm at a loss for
words because there's so muchthat we we deal with in our
(13:44):
jobs. You know, you're you'redealing with your and but then,
you know, there's workplacegossip, there's water cooler
talk and all those things. Andyou have to kind of balance it.
Sometimes, like, work feels likehigh school.
Elizabeth Lortardo (13:55):
Yeah. I think there's a song about that.
It's a good Charlotte song,maybe, high school never ends.
Adam Larson (14:02):
Yes. It is.
Elizabeth Lortardo (14:04):
And that's true. And I think the root of
your question is how do you dealwith all of these frustrating
people that you wish you didn'thave to deal with. Right? I had
one leader say to me, my job iseasy. It's the other 250 people
here that make it hard.
And I think that's that'spainfully relatable. I wish I
had, like, a Band Aid forridding the world of annoyance.
(14:26):
I don't. But I have some tips tohelp you deal with it. And the
first is to depersonalize it.
And there's been a lot writtenabout, like, you hurt people,
hurt people, and that's easy tounderstand intellectually. But
for me, when I started torealize that the way I treat
people has very little to dowith them and a lot to do with
(14:48):
me and my beliefs and what'simportant to me and what I'm
experiencing personally forbetter or worse, I was able to
grant other people the samegrace and take things a lot less
personally, which just helps ona fundamental level, you know,
reduce the volume of showerspeeches that you give after
your workday when you takethings less personally. I've
(15:11):
also seen in my client work thatclear expectations tend to be
the root of a lot of workplacestrife. And people using
language like, well, they shouldknow, or it should be obvious
that, or clearly I shouldn'thave to tell them. So owning
your part in settingexpectations and voicing when
(15:31):
expectations aren't met or ifyou failed to set expectations
can make a big difference insome of those workplace
relationships.
And I think lastly, a dose ofhumility. Like, I'm annoying to
people. We all are annoying topeople sometimes. Mhmm. You've
given a lot of shower speechesabout everyone, and rest
assured, some have been givenabout you.
And I think just recognizingthat as a natural outcome when
(15:54):
working with a wide variety ofpeople is freeing.
Adam Larson (15:57):
It really is. And I appreciate your answer. And as
you were saying it, I'm like, ohyeah, I've done that too. Just
like not making it personallike, oh, so and so must have
been having a bad day. Allright, moving on.
I'll still email them about thething I need them for them later
and not letting it not notnecessarily like, you know,
obviously, if somebody's beingdeliberately mean and terrible
to you, you know, you can't justsay, oh, they're having a bad
(16:19):
day. You know, there's a there'sa difference in that. But I
appreciate that that not makingit as personal.
Elizabeth Lortardo (16:24):
There's definitely some nuance. And I'm
not saying you should tolerateinjustice and assume that
everyone is allowed to treat youterribly. But I think a little
bit of graciousness matters.There was this passage in a
Stephen Covey book that reallystuck with me where he was
talking about riding a subwaytrain. And this dad and his four
kids get on the subway train,and the kids are just bouncing
(16:47):
off the walls.
Right? The dad is not payingattention to them at all. He is
just standing there staring outwhile these kids are like taking
other people's food, likespilling stuff, yelling,
climbing on strangers. His dad'slike not doing anything. And
everyone on the subway car islike, what a terrible father.
Right? How could he not becontrolling these kids? He
(17:09):
doesn't even care that they'redisturbing everybody. And
someone said to him, sir, like,your children are really
disturbing everyone else on thistrain. And he looked up, and the
way Stephen Covey writes aboutit is he says, it was like he
came to consciousness for afirst time, and he said, I'm so
sorry.
We're coming from the hospital.Their mother just died. I don't
(17:32):
think they know how to get howto handle it, and I don't think
I do either. And, like, again,you don't have to grant repeated
demonstrations of of not nicebehavior all the grace, but one
off, you really never know. Andit wasn't that that guy was a
terrible father, and he wantedpeople to be disturbed.
It was the ten minutes that noone saw before that. And I
(17:53):
always ground myself in thatstory when I get really
frustrated with someone and Itake something really
personally, especially when it'sthe first time that that's
happening with that person toremind myself, like, you truly
never know. Mhmm.
Adam Larson (18:05):
I agree. And having gone through similar things in
my life, you know, I I try togive people that grace too,
because you never know what whathappened right before they
walked into this room and hadthat conversation with me.
Elizabeth Lortardo (18:17):
I think it comes down to demonstrable
patterns of behavior. Someone isrepeatedly that way, even if
it's for a sad reason, like theyhad a rough childhood, you look
at that differently than one offinstances.
Adam Larson (18:29):
That's true. So we can't have this conversation
without talking about leadingup. You know, if you if you
search leading up in likeHarvard Business Review, you're
going to find hundreds ofarticles on there. You know, you
put it in Google. You're goingto find hundreds because
sometimes our bosses don't evenunderstand the jobs we do.
Sometimes they don't haveunderstanding of what we do from
day to day, You know? So maybewe could talk a little bit about
what does effective upwardleadership look like and how can
(18:52):
someone start practicing it?Because someone may be listening
and saying, wait, I can do that?
Elizabeth Lortardo (18:57):
I love that you asked this question because
as we see, like, specializationstart to narrow and
organizations get really wide,most people are working for
someone who has not done the jobthey are doing. In some cases,
they don't even understand thejob that they are doing. And
that puts the onus on theindividual contributor even more
(19:18):
significantly to lead up. So anumbrella message in leading up
is to if you are frustrated withyour boss and some of their
idiosyncrasies, dial it into thebehavior of theirs you are
frustrated with. We're not gonnamake moral failings of they just
don't get it.
They're so impulsive.Behaviorally, what behavior are
(19:41):
they doing that is impacting younegatively? Let's use a really
common example. They'remicromanaging. They're
constantly bothering you and inthe weeds on your thing.
So how can you lead up if thatis the behavior you are trying
to change? You can proactivelyset a checking cadence with
them, even if it's a lot morefrequently than you would like.
(20:04):
You can keep them in the loop toa degree where they get annoyed
at you. You can be so proactivein updating them that they know
that they're I'm never gonna besurprised by anything. They're
gonna keep me in the loop oneverything, and unsurprisingly,
they will start to leave youalone.
Adam Larson (20:22):
Mhmm.
Elizabeth Lortardo (20:24):
Another thing you can do from your
individual c, if you are workingfor someone who is a
micromanager, is articulate thecost of micromanagement to them.
And I don't mean you're amicromanager and it makes me
really frustrated and I can'tfocus. What I do mean is I'm
really committed to this projectthat we agreed on. And to do
(20:46):
this well, I'm gonna need somebig stretches of focus time. Can
we commit to three hours everyother day where I can really
dive in on this?
And unless there's an emergency,not be interrupted. That is a
perfectly reasonable request.
Adam Larson (21:02):
Mhmm.
Elizabeth Lortardo (21:02):
All three of those things will make a slight
difference. Not a one eighty,but they build over time. And
what I hope listeners see isthat each of those things are
completely within your control.And none of those were a choice
to, I don't deserve amicromanager. They're so
annoying.
I'm just gonna take it on thechin and be grumpy. They're all
(21:23):
proactive.
Adam Larson (21:23):
Yeah, it is. Because you can spend a lot of
time complaining about amicromanager. You know, we've
all I'm sure if you've workedyou worked in a business, you've
you've had a micromanager atsome point in your in your
career and it's just it's justhow it is because at some point
you're going to work withsomebody like that. And that's
Okay. You know, that's just howthat's their managing style.
(21:44):
But it's how you react to it, Ithink, is the is the biggest
thing. A lot of times we focuson what I've learned and a lot
of conversations I see a lot oftimes we focus on what that
person is doing and we forgetthat control what you can and do
what you can and controlyourself and control how you
react to it. And that goes a lotfurther than continuously
(22:07):
complaining about somebody'sbehavior.
Elizabeth Lortardo (22:09):
I think it's important to recognize that as
individuals, when we rehearsenarratives around how much we've
been wronged, how much everyoneelse sucks and how unfair it is,
Even if that's the truth, we paya hefty price as people living
in that place mentally.Relationships pay a hefty price.
(22:31):
No matter how nice your spouseis, they don't wanna hear you
complain about your job foryears on end. I promise. We pay
a price physically, increasedlevels of cortisol, reduced
sleep, inability to focus andsolve problems.
Your brain changes when you stayin that place. So recognizing
that giving people the benefitof the doubt and letting them
off the hook for some thingsisn't of service to them. It's
(22:54):
of service to you.
Adam Larson (22:57):
It is. And it physically kind of changes your
outlook on things. You don'tyou're no longer negative Nancy.
You're always you're not alwaysthe one saying, grumbling all
the time, but you're actuallyyou can actually grow in your
job, grow in as a human and notjust kind of stay in one place,
I guess.
Elizabeth Lortardo (23:12):
So one thing I say to a lot of my clients is
after they air some of theirgrievances is we're going to
move from emotional resentmentinto tactical maneuvering. I'm
not going to discredit that thatwas unfair. I'm not gonna say
that it was right. We're justgonna move into tactical
maneuvering and what you cancontrol because that's the only
(23:33):
thing that's gonna make adifference. And the ability to
do that on the holistic and inindividual situations can be
profound in terms of careerrocket fuel, that jump from,
okay, this happened to me,instead of dissecting how unfair
it is, I'm going to move intohow I handle it.
Adam Larson (23:49):
We talked a little bit about, you know, how a lot
of companies are letting peoplego. We've talked about what
people can do, you know, whenthey're inside of an
organization and all that'shappening. But what about the
people on the other side ofthat? You've been let go of your
organization. You know, is thereadvice you can give to somebody
who's kind of they want to leadthemselves through this kind of
uncertainty and change?
Because, you know, maybe theygot a little and they've got to
worry about COBRA, they got toworry about insurance, they got
to worry about all those things.And there's a lot of stress in
(24:12):
those moments and you kind ofgot to pull up your bootstraps
and get yourself through it.
Elizabeth Lortardo (24:16):
Yeah. There's really no other choice
to lead yourself right nowbecause no one else is gonna do
it. You don't have a manager whois gonna step in and lead you or
some CEO who's gonna tell youexactly what to do. Now it's on
you. I think you raise animportant point around COBRA and
the logistics and the financialstrain of a layoff.
So much has been talked abouthow you need to take a pause and
(24:38):
breathe and use this as a timeto self reflect. And I think
that is a hugely privilegedthing to say because such a
small percentage of theworkforce actually has that as
an option. Most people arethrust into tactical maneuvering
immediately because they have tobe. So if you are in that spot
of tactical maneuvering, I'm notgonna tell you to take a deep
(25:00):
breath and stare at your bellybutton and contemplate the
meaning of life. What I will sayis to be strategic with your
place.
And as tempting as it is toindex on quantity in a job
search because you feel like ifI, you know, put all these
applications out, I'm gonna upmy odds of having the right job
(25:20):
come to me. But what we know isthat focusing on quality,
focusing on bespokeapplications, following up
regularly, reaching out to thespecific people, and zooming in
drastically increases your lawyour odds of finding the right
(25:40):
job versus quantity. Everythingthat is easy apply on LinkedIn
is getting thousands ofapplications that look just like
yours and probably won't be seenby a person. You have to focus.
It is the only way you are goingto come out of this.
And it feels like it's hedgingyour bets too strong. Like, if
(26:00):
you only focus on 10 jobs, like,that's, you know, not enough.
What if they don't work out? Butfocusing on 100 jobs guarantees
that 100 jobs will not work out.
Adam Larson (26:10):
So you saying those things kind of made me think of
your chapter about when knowingwhen to phone it in. Yeah. And
it's kind of goes against thatidea of hustle culture, like
always trying to always tryingto do things, which for some
people works really well andthey're they're really good at
that hustle. But not everybodycan handle that. And it kind of
I was just pulling it up becauseI wanted because I like the
quote you did at the beginningof the chapters that the more
(26:32):
you try to do, the less youactually accomplish.
And maybe we could talk a littlebit what the idea behind this is
and and why it's so powerful.
Elizabeth Lortardo (26:39):
So I wanted to call this out for a couple of
reasons. Number one, I despisethe hustle culture. I think it
is rooted in such deep privilegeand a bunch of bros, no offense,
that have wives who take care oftheir kids and can wake up at
5AM and have this, like, deeptime to think. That's really
nice for them. I think thenarrative has been hijacked in a
(26:59):
way.
I also think that it sets areally unrealistic bar for most
people from an energeticperspective, and then you feel
terrible when you don't meetthis completely unrealistic
thing. So what I wanted to dowith the chapter of identify
when to phone it in was talk tohigh achievers who don't
(27:22):
necessarily embrace the hustleculture and have been strategic
on where to place their limitedenergy. And back to the quote,
if you try and do everything,you'll end up doing nothing.
There are parts of your job thatyou don't have to give your best
self to. There are parts of yourentire life that you can kind of
phone it in.
And giving yourself permissionto do that frees up the
(27:44):
energetic resource to pour intothe things that really matter
and that really benefit fromgiving your best to. And it it
feels like kind of guilty,especially if you identify as
performer and an ambitiousperson, but like, I'm just kind
of gonna half ass that a littlebit. But what the data tells us
is that making that proactivechoice enables you to bring even
(28:08):
better results to something thatis even more important.
Adam Larson (28:12):
So you're saying we can't just give 110% all the
time, and that's what thatperson does all the time?
Elizabeth Lortardo (28:17):
No. Sorry to the bros. You cannot. Well,
maybe you can for a reallylimited amount of time, and
maybe there's some breed ofwhich I don't fall into that can
for their whole life. But thereality is for the vast majority
of people, you will burn out insome way, and it will almost
always be in an area youwouldn't have proactively
chosen.
You will have some healthproblem. You will have your
relationship start to fallapart. Something of the spinning
(28:40):
plates will crash. And thequestion is, will you choose it
or will you let it be chosen?
Adam Larson (28:46):
I can I really appreciate that because
depending where people in theera people grew up in, you know,
I know when I was growing up, itwas always like, you always have
to give 100%? And hearing yousay, well, not everything needs
your full self. That one thinglike that thing where you have
to enter the numbers in for thatspreadsheet for that one boss,
that doesn't take your fullbrain. You don't have to give
your full. Just do it.
(29:07):
Do it right. Send it on. Youdon't have to It kind of it's
counterculture with how how thehow companies and organizations
are created. They are notcreated with that mindset
because why would I tell myemployee to give only 10% for
this one or give a little bitit's it's it's like
counterculture. Like, it's it'slike my brain can't even process
(29:27):
it.
Elizabeth Lortardo (29:28):
It is counterculture, but what we know
is that it works because tryingto do everything perfectly is
really short term game. You'regoing to burn out personally or
you're gonna make a bad mistakeprofessionally. It's
unsustainable. Mhmm. Soproactively choosing that, you
know what?
I'll use myself as an example. Iwrite a lot of proposals for
client work. If I have a gutintuition that something isn't
(29:52):
gonna close, something about itjust feels kinda off, the size
of it, a conversation I had, youbest believe I'm not fine tuning
that to the billionth degreethat I am the proposal I'm
really excited about. And givingmyself permission to be like,
you know what? I'm gonna work alot harder on this one because I
think it's more important.
Yeah. Otherwise, I'm gonna loseboth clients or I'm gonna win
(30:14):
the one I don't want.
Adam Larson (30:16):
Mhmm.
Elizabeth Lortardo (30:16):
So I think the shift there into I'm gonna
just let some of this go and doit kind of just okay enough to
get by so I have the energy topour into things that are really
important.
Adam Larson (30:30):
What if somebody's listening to you just say that
and they're like, buteverything's super important.
Like, how do you do you measurethings in your life? Because
some of it's listening toyourself, like you're saying,
like you have that feeling andyou have to learn to trust your
instincts, but it's not alwaysthat simple or not that trusting
your instincts is simple, butthat's a developed thing that
happens over time.
Elizabeth Lortardo (30:51):
Well, how do you tell your boss like, I don't
feel aligned to this. I'm goingto deprioritize it. So, think
the root of your question is howdo you pick and choose, right?
Just the notion that you should,but through what lenses. Is that
right?
Adam Larson (31:07):
Yes. Yes.
Elizabeth Lortardo (31:08):
So there are two lenses that I like to use in
in my personal picking andchoosing on when to phone it in.
The first is long term value.And assessing six months, six
years down the line, is thisgonna matter? And the answer can
(31:29):
be no, but it's something toconsider. And the second lens
is, what does this do to myenergy?
Does this completely drain me?Or does it make me feel
energized? And it's not a hardand fast like, oh, if there's no
long term value and it drainsyour energy, you don't have to
do it. Because reality is in awork experience, if you work for
(31:50):
someone, sometimes you have to.
Adam Larson (31:52):
Yeah.
Elizabeth Lortardo (31:53):
But looking through those lenses, especially
in the long term of your career,can enable you to make better
moves on where you spend yourtime, what you raise your hand
for, and what you want your nextplay to be. So I don't wanna sit
here and be like, oh, just pickand choose, like, where your
energy is, and your boss willjust have to get over it because
it's not that simple. But therecognition that we are at
(32:15):
choice for where we put ourintellectual horsepower is a
freeing one. And it doesn'talways show up in these huge,
profound calendar blocks. Itshows up in micro moments where
you're like, you know what?
That's going to go with sometypos and people are just going
to have to get over it becauseI'm working on this.
Adam Larson (32:31):
No, I appreciate that. I really do. So,
Elizabeth, this has been anamazing conversation. And I just
wanted to maybe if there's onething that you want people to
kind of walk away from and asthey're walking away, they can
go to Amazon and buy your book.But, you know, what's one thing
that they can walk away of?
And like, what do you hope thatthey can remember about be
leading themselves?
Elizabeth Lortardo (32:50):
So I get this question a lot of like,
when do you need to startleading yourself? And I think
that question is funny becausethe reality is we are all
already leading ourselves. Thequestion is, are you doing a
good job at it? And thesentiment I would leave people
with is even though times areswirly, even though everyone and
(33:12):
every organization is facinghuge uncertainty, even though
there are some real challengeswe are all reckoning with, you
are not powerless. And you canpour into yourself, you can up
your skill set in selfleadership, and you can create a
different reality when youchoose to.
(33:32):
Not overnight. It's not a magicband aid. I can't right all the
wrongs in the world, but youhave the power to upskill
yourself in a way that betterenables you to deal with them.
So you're not powerless. You youspent thirty something minutes
upskilling yourself.
Let the journey continue, anddon't be too discouraged.
Adam Larson (33:50):
Well, thanks so much, Elizabeth, for coming on
the podcast. It's been greatchatting with you.
Elizabeth Lortardo (33:54):
Thanks for having me.
Announcer (33:56):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
Hey, everyone and welcome back to Count Me In. I'm
your host, Adam Larson, today wehave a special guest for you.
I'm joined by ElizabethLortardo, author of the book
Leading Yourself to talk aboutsomething we all face, how to
take charge of your own mindset,actions, and relationships at
work regardless of our jobtitle. In this conversation,
Elizabeth goes beyond thetypical buzzwords and really
(00:26):
breaks down what it means tolead yourself, especially during
times of uncertainty and change.We dig into how to find purpose
in everyday tasks, how to avoidburning out when work gets
overwhelming, and even how totackle those tricky
relationships with coworkers orwith your boss.
So stick around because thisepisode of Count Me In is all
about turning challenges intoopportunities by leading
(00:47):
yourself starting today. Let'sjump right in. So I'm really
excited to be talking about yourbook, Leading Yourself today. I
really enjoyed, really enjoyedreading the book, and I think it
has a lot of great practicaladvice for leaders, potential
leaders, and even just ingeneral, if even if you don't
(01:08):
have anybody reporting to you,you're leading yourself. You
have to lead yourself to getthrough the day sometimes to get
through jobs, etcetera.
So maybe we can talk about likean overview, like, what is
leading yourself look like inpractice? And maybe what do you
mean by leading yourself? Maybewe can start there.
Elizabeth Lortardo (01:22):
It's core leading yourself to me is taking
ownership of how you think, howyou act, and how you relate to
others regardless of the jobyou're in. And to your point,
whether you're leading a team ofa 100 or whether you are only
leading yourself, we know thatthe ability to self lead is a
predictor of workplace success.So, pausing to ask, what can I
(01:43):
control right now? Even whenthings are swirly is always an
option. And what I hope toexplore in the book is how to do
that.
Adam Larson (01:49):
So, one of the big themes in your book is finding
purpose in a normal job. Youknow, because a lot of times
when you're growing up, you hearpeople, you know, saying, Oh,
what is your dream job? What doyou want to do? You know, find
the thing you love and you'llnever work your day in your
life. And I don't necessarilyagree with that statement
because everything even if youlove doing something, it gets
tiring after a while.
So let's talk a little bitabout, you know, what what does
(02:11):
it mean finding your purpose ina normal job?
Elizabeth Lortardo (02:14):
This notion of purpose is a noble one, but
it has been so overinflated inthe narrative around work. And I
think that is for a couple ofreasons. First, if you've seen
that, like, icky guy, whatevergraphic on LinkedIn where all
the circles come together andwhat you do combines with what
(02:34):
you love, combines with what theworld needs, combined with what
you get paid for, like, it alllooks so perfectly aligned in
this graphic. And the reality isno one has that work experience.
Mhmm.
So to suggest it is settingeveryone up for disappointment.
The second reason we tend tofeel an absence of purpose is
(02:55):
because organizations havegotten the message that, oh, you
know, people want fulfillment intheir jobs. And they advertise
that in recruiting material ontheir website. They say, we have
this really noble mission, andyou you go in with so much
inspiration and then you have todo some kind of boring stuff.
And it feels really disconnectedfrom that.
(03:16):
So to reckon with this, what'sgoing societal, on a cultural
level, this notion of purpose,and you have to feel fulfilled
and you wanna feel inspired whenyou're at work with the reality
of sometimes work is hard andannoying is something I hope to
to accomplish in that chapter ofhow do you find purpose in a
normal job? And how do you foryourself contextualize the task
(03:41):
you're doing every day so theydon't feel meaningless and so
they don't feel transactional?And I think in an accounting
driven profession, that's reallyimportant because the numbers
matter. Right? Thesespreadsheets are of crucial
importance.
And it's easy to lose sight ofthe fact that they help people
sleep at night. They keep peopleout of jail. They enable
(04:03):
businesses to make betterinvestments, to hire, to
innovate in ways they wouldn'thave been able to do otherwise
if they didn't have goodaccounting. It doesn't feel that
way every day. But the more wecan tie ourselves to that ripple
effect, the better we experiencethe job that we have, even when
it's boring.
Adam Larson (04:21):
That's easier said than done. You know, you have a
especially if you have atransactional job like, you
know, you've just entered likethe accounting profession and
you're doing a lot of kind ofthe what they call grunt work,
right? You're doing the stuffthat nobody else wants to do,
that you're kind of learning howto do things. It's really hard
to say, I'm tying myself to agreater purpose now and not
become cynical. How do youmanage that that those waters?
Elizabeth Lortardo (04:42):
So it works even if you're cynical. Your
brain doesn't know thedifference between your own,
like, snarky, sarcastic remarksto yourself and actually
believing it a lot of the time.So the the saying of, like, fake
it till you make it, Amy Cuddyhas some interesting research on
fake it till you become it. Evenif you're like, oh, my job is so
meaningful, your brain is in abetter place with that sarcastic
(05:05):
thought than believing the truethought of my job sucks.
Adam Larson (05:09):
Really?
Elizabeth Lortardo (05:11):
I I don't mean to suggest that, like,
every day you're gonna like, I'mso inspired. But even just once
a day reminding yourself that,hey. I do hundreds of these
reports a day for this businessor for this person. This is
their one. And they are placingtrust in me to do it well.
Like, yourself even if it's forfive minutes on your lunch
break, it does play out overtime in some ways that are
(05:34):
really significant. Wow. But Ican appreciate the skepticism.
Sounds kind of hokey.
Adam Larson (05:41):
It does. And I think this is from somebody
who's kind of become a skepticthe older I've gotten. And so I
when I talk when I think aboutthese things, I always want to
say, let's let's let's look atthis real talk because not every
day is going to be a I'm goingto lead myself to do greater and
better things. And some peoplecan do that, but not everybody
feels that way. And so how doyou like, I I always struggle
with, like, how do you overcomethat?
Elizabeth Lortardo (06:02):
So two things on that. I don't feel
that way. I had to learn it,which is why I was the right
person to write this bookbecause I spent the early part
of my career unhappy,unsatisfied, unengaged, and I
thought that was everyone else'sfault but mine. So I hear you.
The second part of that is,let's say you don't have it in
(06:26):
you, right, to trace your ownripple effect and inspire
yourself.
Read customer testimonials. Theyexist on your company's website.
They exist on social media, thegood ones. But even reading that
can fuel your spirit, even ifyou only partially believe it.
So if it's feeling like, okay,I'm pouring from an empty cup,
right?
I'm skeptic. I don't really havea lot of inspiration to give
(06:46):
myself right now. Let otherpeople do that for you. Your
company no doubt has casestudies and testimonials that
can, even if only partially,help you see your work in
greater context.
Adam Larson (06:58):
Yeah. So in your book, you kind of broke it into
three different parts. You gotmindset, behavior and then
working with others. What do youthink is kind of like the most
important or not the mostimportant? What do you think?
Which of those do you think mostpeople struggle with today? And
why is that?
Elizabeth Lortardo (07:13):
I think people struggle the most with
relationships at the end of thebook, and then they struggle
with behavior, and then theywould say they struggle with
mindset. And most people wouldapproach the work in inverse
order. Right? Dealing with allthe problems of other people and
then dealing with all the thebehavioral things that are
wrong. And then maybe I'll behappy, and my mindset will take
(07:36):
care of itself.
But what we know, what theresearch tells us, our own lived
experience is that the inverseis true. Only when you lock in
your mindset, and only when youreally zoom in on your behavior
is changing your relationshipswith other people possible. So
again, that internal locus ofcontrol versus external locus of
control. If you read my bookbackwards, that is an external
(07:59):
locus of control. To read it inthe way I wrote it, that would
be a self leadership focusedinternal focus.
Adam Larson (08:06):
How do you know which one you are?
Announcer (08:07):
I think
Elizabeth Lortardo (08:07):
we're all kind of an external locus of
control. Even if we don't admitit. I know I certainly am.
Because it's human nature,right? Designed look for threats
in our environment, to thinkabout own behavior and our own,
like, childhood traumas and howthey're showing up at work.
Primarily, we are geared towardsan external locus of control and
(08:30):
making sure, like, we're awareof every threat that's coming
our way. But that doesn't makeus happy.
Adam Larson (08:36):
True. So when you're speaking about threats,
it makes me think of, you know,when you talked about quiet fear
in your book. And so maybe wecould talk a little about, you
know, how fear shows up in ourwork lives especially because
there's a lot of things we can'tcontrol in our work lives. Like
you're maybe only over whateveryour department is, whatever
your team is. You may only beable to control those things,
but there's a lot of especiallywith how fast environments are
(08:58):
changing currently.
Elizabeth Lortardo (09:00):
Right. And the narrative around workplace
uncertainty isn't doing us anyfavors. Everyone is experiencing
layoffs, whether it's youdirectly or whether you know
someone who is. Every company islooking at uncertainty as it
relates to technology and theeconomy. So this is all around
us.
And in a way, recognizing thatit is that everyone is a little
(09:22):
afraid is freeing because itmakes it feel less like you're
doing something wrong becauseyou're nervous.
Adam Larson (09:27):
Mhmm.
Elizabeth Lortardo (09:28):
You have every right to be nervous. But
reckoning with that and workingthrough it is within your
control. And we know that whenyou are able to operate in the
face of fear, you make betterdecisions and you get more
opportunities. The challenge is,and I spoke about this a little
bit, primarily, we are trainedto identify fear and latch onto
(09:48):
it. And our brain has notevolved at the pace our
circumstances have changed.
Right? We're still in kind ofcaveman brain despite working in
an office, which is reallyweird. So it takes proactive
effort on your part to identifyand proactively look for the
upside in a situation. So, yeah,AI, for example, is changing
everything tremendously. There'spredictions of a white collar
(10:10):
recession because of this.
And that 50% or more of entrylevel jobs will be eliminated.
30% or more of middle managementjobs will be eliminated in the
next three years. That is aterrifying statistic.
Adam Larson (10:22):
Yeah.
Elizabeth Lortardo (10:22):
But let's force ourselves to look for a
potential upside, an opportunityfor ourselves in the face of
that. Right? So we know that'scoming. What can we do now? This
is our chance to learn newskills.
This is our chance to get out infront of it and to diversify
ourselves in terms of income.This is our chance to believe
maybe that there's someopportunity for us that is
(10:45):
meaningful on the other side ofthis. Sitting in the ways of all
the possibilities that it couldgo poorly for us isn't really
helpful. Like, it's what yourbrain wants to latch on to. But
staying there costs you a lot.
Adam Larson (10:56):
You know, we were just you were just talking about
how, you know, there's a lot ofchanging happening in
environments and a lot ofcompanies are shrinking, already
shrinking in spite of what couldhappen in the future. And people
are on the verge of burnout. Doyou have like some tips and
pointers for people who can leadthemselves through those
moments? Because the fear isvery real. And if you have more
(11:21):
work piling on top of you, howdo you kind of pick yourself up
out of that in spite ofeverything that's happening?
Elizabeth Lortardo (11:27):
Yeah. How can you reinspire yourself and
be optimistic when you'realready burned out? I think is
Yeah. Right? Yeah.
So some of this is going to be amindset shift, and some of it is
gonna be really practical. I'mnot gonna sit here and be like,
you can positivity think yourway out of too many things to
do. Right? The reality is thevolume of tasks has to decrease
(11:48):
for you to overcome burnout.There has to be more space
carved out.
There is not a list of brainhacks that can reckon with too
much to do simply. So how do youdo that? Some of it is having
conversations with your manager,and that doesn't mean I'm burned
out. I have too much to do. Youcan do this in a way that
doesn't undermine yourself andsay, as I look at the next six
(12:12):
months, what are the mostimportant priorities for our
team?
How do you think I can mostsignificantly contribute to the
objectives of our organization?I'm struggling to prioritize
between x and y. What do youthink is most important? Right?
So this political subtlety oftrying to push things off your
plate is gonna play a factor inreducing your own burnout.
(12:34):
And I also think recognizingyour part in it is crucial. It's
really easy to say, oh, well,calls me at 9PM, and that's why
I'm burned out. Well, who'sanswering the phone? Yeah. And
are you conveying behavioralpatterns?
Are you overestimating theconsequences of not doing that
(12:55):
And taking a hard look in themirror of what have you done to
create these conditions and howcan you undo it?
Adam Larson (13:02):
So I want to talk a little bit about working with
other people because I thinkthat's, you know, it's a big we
all work with other people,whether you are you whether you
are a single person, you know,who has a single person, you
have to work with vendors or youhave to work with in a big
organization. And a lot oftimes, you know, you're not
going to like everybody you workwith. You're going to have
annoying people you work with,you know. So how do you kind of
(13:23):
overcome those those barriers?Because sometimes, you know,
we're human and people annoy usand sometimes you snap at
somebody or sometimes you dothose things.
Not that you should like you canovercome that, but it's how do
you kind of overcome the just Ifeel like I'm at a loss for
words because there's so muchthat we we deal with in our
(13:44):
jobs. You know, you're you'redealing with your and but then,
you know, there's workplacegossip, there's water cooler
talk and all those things. Andyou have to kind of balance it.
Sometimes, like, work feels likehigh school.
Elizabeth Lortardo (13:55):
Yeah. I think there's a song about that.
It's a good Charlotte song,maybe, high school never ends.
Adam Larson (14:02):
Yes. It is.
Elizabeth Lortardo (14:04):
And that's true. And I think the root of
your question is how do you dealwith all of these frustrating
people that you wish you didn'thave to deal with. Right? I had
one leader say to me, my job iseasy. It's the other 250 people
here that make it hard.
And I think that's that'spainfully relatable. I wish I
had, like, a Band Aid forridding the world of annoyance.
(14:26):
I don't. But I have some tips tohelp you deal with it. And the
first is to depersonalize it.
And there's been a lot writtenabout, like, you hurt people,
hurt people, and that's easy tounderstand intellectually. But
for me, when I started torealize that the way I treat
people has very little to dowith them and a lot to do with
(14:48):
me and my beliefs and what'simportant to me and what I'm
experiencing personally forbetter or worse, I was able to
grant other people the samegrace and take things a lot less
personally, which just helps ona fundamental level, you know,
reduce the volume of showerspeeches that you give after
your workday when you takethings less personally. I've
(15:11):
also seen in my client work thatclear expectations tend to be
the root of a lot of workplacestrife. And people using
language like, well, they shouldknow, or it should be obvious
that, or clearly I shouldn'thave to tell them. So owning
your part in settingexpectations and voicing when
(15:31):
expectations aren't met or ifyou failed to set expectations
can make a big difference insome of those workplace
relationships.
And I think lastly, a dose ofhumility. Like, I'm annoying to
people. We all are annoying topeople sometimes. Mhmm. You've
given a lot of shower speechesabout everyone, and rest
assured, some have been givenabout you.
And I think just recognizingthat as a natural outcome when
(15:54):
working with a wide variety ofpeople is freeing.
Adam Larson (15:57):
It really is. And I appreciate your answer. And as
you were saying it, I'm like, ohyeah, I've done that too. Just
like not making it personallike, oh, so and so must have
been having a bad day. Allright, moving on.
I'll still email them about thething I need them for them later
and not letting it not notnecessarily like, you know,
obviously, if somebody's beingdeliberately mean and terrible
to you, you know, you can't justsay, oh, they're having a bad
(16:19):
day. You know, there's a there'sa difference in that. But I
appreciate that that not makingit as personal.
Elizabeth Lortardo (16:24):
There's definitely some nuance. And I'm
not saying you should tolerateinjustice and assume that
everyone is allowed to treat youterribly. But I think a little
bit of graciousness matters.There was this passage in a
Stephen Covey book that reallystuck with me where he was
talking about riding a subwaytrain. And this dad and his four
kids get on the subway train,and the kids are just bouncing
(16:47):
off the walls.
Right? The dad is not payingattention to them at all. He is
just standing there staring outwhile these kids are like taking
other people's food, likespilling stuff, yelling,
climbing on strangers. His dad'slike not doing anything. And
everyone on the subway car islike, what a terrible father.
Right? How could he not becontrolling these kids? He
(17:09):
doesn't even care that they'redisturbing everybody. And
someone said to him, sir, like,your children are really
disturbing everyone else on thistrain. And he looked up, and the
way Stephen Covey writes aboutit is he says, it was like he
came to consciousness for afirst time, and he said, I'm so
sorry.
We're coming from the hospital.Their mother just died. I don't
(17:32):
think they know how to get howto handle it, and I don't think
I do either. And, like, again,you don't have to grant repeated
demonstrations of of not nicebehavior all the grace, but one
off, you really never know. Andit wasn't that that guy was a
terrible father, and he wantedpeople to be disturbed.
It was the ten minutes that noone saw before that. And I
(17:53):
always ground myself in thatstory when I get really
frustrated with someone and Itake something really
personally, especially when it'sthe first time that that's
happening with that person toremind myself, like, you truly
never know. Mhmm.
Adam Larson (18:05):
I agree. And having gone through similar things in
my life, you know, I I try togive people that grace too,
because you never know what whathappened right before they
walked into this room and hadthat conversation with me.
Elizabeth Lortardo (18:17):
I think it comes down to demonstrable
patterns of behavior. Someone isrepeatedly that way, even if
it's for a sad reason, like theyhad a rough childhood, you look
at that differently than one offinstances.
Adam Larson (18:29):
That's true. So we can't have this conversation
without talking about leadingup. You know, if you if you
search leading up in likeHarvard Business Review, you're
going to find hundreds ofarticles on there. You know, you
put it in Google. You're goingto find hundreds because
sometimes our bosses don't evenunderstand the jobs we do.
Sometimes they don't haveunderstanding of what we do from
day to day, You know? So maybewe could talk a little bit about
what does effective upwardleadership look like and how can
(18:52):
someone start practicing it?Because someone may be listening
and saying, wait, I can do that?
Elizabeth Lortardo (18:57):
I love that you asked this question because
as we see, like, specializationstart to narrow and
organizations get really wide,most people are working for
someone who has not done the jobthey are doing. In some cases,
they don't even understand thejob that they are doing. And
that puts the onus on theindividual contributor even more
(19:18):
significantly to lead up. So anumbrella message in leading up
is to if you are frustrated withyour boss and some of their
idiosyncrasies, dial it into thebehavior of theirs you are
frustrated with. We're not gonnamake moral failings of they just
don't get it.
They're so impulsive.Behaviorally, what behavior are
(19:41):
they doing that is impacting younegatively? Let's use a really
common example. They'remicromanaging. They're
constantly bothering you and inthe weeds on your thing.
So how can you lead up if thatis the behavior you are trying
to change? You can proactivelyset a checking cadence with
them, even if it's a lot morefrequently than you would like.
(20:04):
You can keep them in the loop toa degree where they get annoyed
at you. You can be so proactivein updating them that they know
that they're I'm never gonna besurprised by anything. They're
gonna keep me in the loop oneverything, and unsurprisingly,
they will start to leave youalone.
Adam Larson (20:22):
Mhmm.
Elizabeth Lortardo (20:24):
Another thing you can do from your
individual c, if you are workingfor someone who is a
micromanager, is articulate thecost of micromanagement to them.
And I don't mean you're amicromanager and it makes me
really frustrated and I can'tfocus. What I do mean is I'm
really committed to this projectthat we agreed on. And to do
(20:46):
this well, I'm gonna need somebig stretches of focus time. Can
we commit to three hours everyother day where I can really
dive in on this?
And unless there's an emergency,not be interrupted. That is a
perfectly reasonable request.
Adam Larson (21:02):
Mhmm.
Elizabeth Lortardo (21:02):
All three of those things will make a slight
difference. Not a one eighty,but they build over time. And
what I hope listeners see isthat each of those things are
completely within your control.And none of those were a choice
to, I don't deserve amicromanager. They're so
annoying.
I'm just gonna take it on thechin and be grumpy. They're all
(21:23):
proactive.
Adam Larson (21:23):
Yeah, it is. Because you can spend a lot of
time complaining about amicromanager. You know, we've
all I'm sure if you've workedyou worked in a business, you've
you've had a micromanager atsome point in your in your
career and it's just it's justhow it is because at some point
you're going to work withsomebody like that. And that's
Okay. You know, that's just howthat's their managing style.
(21:44):
But it's how you react to it, Ithink, is the is the biggest
thing. A lot of times we focuson what I've learned and a lot
of conversations I see a lot oftimes we focus on what that
person is doing and we forgetthat control what you can and do
what you can and controlyourself and control how you
react to it. And that goes a lotfurther than continuously
(22:07):
complaining about somebody'sbehavior.
Elizabeth Lortardo (22:09):
I think it's important to recognize that as
individuals, when we rehearsenarratives around how much we've
been wronged, how much everyoneelse sucks and how unfair it is,
Even if that's the truth, we paya hefty price as people living
in that place mentally.Relationships pay a hefty price.
(22:31):
No matter how nice your spouseis, they don't wanna hear you
complain about your job foryears on end. I promise. We pay
a price physically, increasedlevels of cortisol, reduced
sleep, inability to focus andsolve problems.
Your brain changes when you stayin that place. So recognizing
that giving people the benefitof the doubt and letting them
off the hook for some thingsisn't of service to them. It's
(22:54):
of service to you.
Adam Larson (22:57):
It is. And it physically kind of changes your
outlook on things. You don'tyou're no longer negative Nancy.
You're always you're not alwaysthe one saying, grumbling all
the time, but you're actuallyyou can actually grow in your
job, grow in as a human and notjust kind of stay in one place,
I guess.
Elizabeth Lortardo (23:12):
So one thing I say to a lot of my clients is
after they air some of theirgrievances is we're going to
move from emotional resentmentinto tactical maneuvering. I'm
not going to discredit that thatwas unfair. I'm not gonna say
that it was right. We're justgonna move into tactical
maneuvering and what you cancontrol because that's the only
(23:33):
thing that's gonna make adifference. And the ability to
do that on the holistic and inindividual situations can be
profound in terms of careerrocket fuel, that jump from,
okay, this happened to me,instead of dissecting how unfair
it is, I'm going to move intohow I handle it.
Adam Larson (23:49):
We talked a little bit about, you know, how a lot
of companies are letting peoplego. We've talked about what
people can do, you know, whenthey're inside of an
organization and all that'shappening. But what about the
people on the other side ofthat? You've been let go of your
organization. You know, is thereadvice you can give to somebody
who's kind of they want to leadthemselves through this kind of
uncertainty and change?
Because, you know, maybe theygot a little and they've got to
worry about COBRA, they got toworry about insurance, they got
to worry about all those things.And there's a lot of stress in
(24:12):
those moments and you kind ofgot to pull up your bootstraps
and get yourself through it.
Elizabeth Lortardo (24:16):
Yeah. There's really no other choice
to lead yourself right nowbecause no one else is gonna do
it. You don't have a manager whois gonna step in and lead you or
some CEO who's gonna tell youexactly what to do. Now it's on
you. I think you raise animportant point around COBRA and
the logistics and the financialstrain of a layoff.
So much has been talked abouthow you need to take a pause and
(24:38):
breathe and use this as a timeto self reflect. And I think
that is a hugely privilegedthing to say because such a
small percentage of theworkforce actually has that as
an option. Most people arethrust into tactical maneuvering
immediately because they have tobe. So if you are in that spot
of tactical maneuvering, I'm notgonna tell you to take a deep
(25:00):
breath and stare at your bellybutton and contemplate the
meaning of life. What I will sayis to be strategic with your
place.
And as tempting as it is toindex on quantity in a job
search because you feel like ifI, you know, put all these
applications out, I'm gonna upmy odds of having the right job
(25:20):
come to me. But what we know isthat focusing on quality,
focusing on bespokeapplications, following up
regularly, reaching out to thespecific people, and zooming in
drastically increases your lawyour odds of finding the right
(25:40):
job versus quantity. Everythingthat is easy apply on LinkedIn
is getting thousands ofapplications that look just like
yours and probably won't be seenby a person. You have to focus.
It is the only way you are goingto come out of this.
And it feels like it's hedgingyour bets too strong. Like, if
(26:00):
you only focus on 10 jobs, like,that's, you know, not enough.
What if they don't work out? Butfocusing on 100 jobs guarantees
that 100 jobs will not work out.
Adam Larson (26:10):
So you saying those things kind of made me think of
your chapter about when knowingwhen to phone it in. Yeah. And
it's kind of goes against thatidea of hustle culture, like
always trying to always tryingto do things, which for some
people works really well andthey're they're really good at
that hustle. But not everybodycan handle that. And it kind of
I was just pulling it up becauseI wanted because I like the
quote you did at the beginningof the chapters that the more
(26:32):
you try to do, the less youactually accomplish.
And maybe we could talk a littlebit what the idea behind this is
and and why it's so powerful.
Elizabeth Lortardo (26:39):
So I wanted to call this out for a couple of
reasons. Number one, I despisethe hustle culture. I think it
is rooted in such deep privilegeand a bunch of bros, no offense,
that have wives who take care oftheir kids and can wake up at
5AM and have this, like, deeptime to think. That's really
nice for them. I think thenarrative has been hijacked in a
(26:59):
way.
I also think that it sets areally unrealistic bar for most
people from an energeticperspective, and then you feel
terrible when you don't meetthis completely unrealistic
thing. So what I wanted to dowith the chapter of identify
when to phone it in was talk tohigh achievers who don't
(27:22):
necessarily embrace the hustleculture and have been strategic
on where to place their limitedenergy. And back to the quote,
if you try and do everything,you'll end up doing nothing.
There are parts of your job thatyou don't have to give your best
self to. There are parts of yourentire life that you can kind of
phone it in.
And giving yourself permissionto do that frees up the
(27:44):
energetic resource to pour intothe things that really matter
and that really benefit fromgiving your best to. And it it
feels like kind of guilty,especially if you identify as
performer and an ambitiousperson, but like, I'm just kind
of gonna half ass that a littlebit. But what the data tells us
is that making that proactivechoice enables you to bring even
(28:08):
better results to something thatis even more important.
Adam Larson (28:12):
So you're saying we can't just give 110% all the
time, and that's what thatperson does all the time?
Elizabeth Lortardo (28:17):
No. Sorry to the bros. You cannot. Well,
maybe you can for a reallylimited amount of time, and
maybe there's some breed ofwhich I don't fall into that can
for their whole life. But thereality is for the vast majority
of people, you will burn out insome way, and it will almost
always be in an area youwouldn't have proactively
chosen.
You will have some healthproblem. You will have your
relationship start to fallapart. Something of the spinning
(28:40):
plates will crash. And thequestion is, will you choose it
or will you let it be chosen?
Adam Larson (28:46):
I can I really appreciate that because
depending where people in theera people grew up in, you know,
I know when I was growing up, itwas always like, you always have
to give 100%? And hearing yousay, well, not everything needs
your full self. That one thinglike that thing where you have
to enter the numbers in for thatspreadsheet for that one boss,
that doesn't take your fullbrain. You don't have to give
your full. Just do it.
(29:07):
Do it right. Send it on. Youdon't have to It kind of it's
counterculture with how how thehow companies and organizations
are created. They are notcreated with that mindset
because why would I tell myemployee to give only 10% for
this one or give a little bitit's it's it's like
counterculture. Like, it's it'slike my brain can't even process
(29:27):
it.
Elizabeth Lortardo (29:28):
It is counterculture, but what we know
is that it works because tryingto do everything perfectly is
really short term game. You'regoing to burn out personally or
you're gonna make a bad mistakeprofessionally. It's
unsustainable. Mhmm. Soproactively choosing that, you
know what?
I'll use myself as an example. Iwrite a lot of proposals for
client work. If I have a gutintuition that something isn't
(29:52):
gonna close, something about itjust feels kinda off, the size
of it, a conversation I had, youbest believe I'm not fine tuning
that to the billionth degreethat I am the proposal I'm
really excited about. And givingmyself permission to be like,
you know what? I'm gonna work alot harder on this one because I
think it's more important.
Yeah. Otherwise, I'm gonna loseboth clients or I'm gonna win
(30:14):
the one I don't want.
Adam Larson (30:16):
Mhmm.
Elizabeth Lortardo (30:16):
So I think the shift there into I'm gonna
just let some of this go and doit kind of just okay enough to
get by so I have the energy topour into things that are really
important.
Adam Larson (30:30):
What if somebody's listening to you just say that
and they're like, buteverything's super important.
Like, how do you do you measurethings in your life? Because
some of it's listening toyourself, like you're saying,
like you have that feeling andyou have to learn to trust your
instincts, but it's not alwaysthat simple or not that trusting
your instincts is simple, butthat's a developed thing that
happens over time.
Elizabeth Lortardo (30:51):
Well, how do you tell your boss like, I don't
feel aligned to this. I'm goingto deprioritize it. So, think
the root of your question is howdo you pick and choose, right?
Just the notion that you should,but through what lenses. Is that
right?
Adam Larson (31:07):
Yes. Yes.
Elizabeth Lortardo (31:08):
So there are two lenses that I like to use in
in my personal picking andchoosing on when to phone it in.
The first is long term value.And assessing six months, six
years down the line, is thisgonna matter? And the answer can
(31:29):
be no, but it's something toconsider. And the second lens
is, what does this do to myenergy?
Does this completely drain me?Or does it make me feel
energized? And it's not a hardand fast like, oh, if there's no
long term value and it drainsyour energy, you don't have to
do it. Because reality is in awork experience, if you work for
(31:50):
someone, sometimes you have to.
Adam Larson (31:52):
Yeah.
Elizabeth Lortardo (31:53):
But looking through those lenses, especially
in the long term of your career,can enable you to make better
moves on where you spend yourtime, what you raise your hand
for, and what you want your nextplay to be. So I don't wanna sit
here and be like, oh, just pickand choose, like, where your
energy is, and your boss willjust have to get over it because
it's not that simple. But therecognition that we are at
(32:15):
choice for where we put ourintellectual horsepower is a
freeing one. And it doesn'talways show up in these huge,
profound calendar blocks. Itshows up in micro moments where
you're like, you know what?
That's going to go with sometypos and people are just going
to have to get over it becauseI'm working on this.
Adam Larson (32:31):
No, I appreciate that. I really do. So,
Elizabeth, this has been anamazing conversation. And I just
wanted to maybe if there's onething that you want people to
kind of walk away from and asthey're walking away, they can
go to Amazon and buy your book.But, you know, what's one thing
that they can walk away of?
And like, what do you hope thatthey can remember about be
leading themselves?
Elizabeth Lortardo (32:50):
So I get this question a lot of like,
when do you need to startleading yourself? And I think
that question is funny becausethe reality is we are all
already leading ourselves. Thequestion is, are you doing a
good job at it? And thesentiment I would leave people
with is even though times areswirly, even though everyone and
(33:12):
every organization is facinghuge uncertainty, even though
there are some real challengeswe are all reckoning with, you
are not powerless. And you canpour into yourself, you can up
your skill set in selfleadership, and you can create a
different reality when youchoose to.
(33:32):
Not overnight. It's not a magicband aid. I can't right all the
wrongs in the world, but youhave the power to upskill
yourself in a way that betterenables you to deal with them.
So you're not powerless. You youspent thirty something minutes
upskilling yourself.
Let the journey continue, anddon't be too discouraged.
Adam Larson (33:50):
Well, thanks so much, Elizabeth, for coming on
the podcast. It's been greatchatting with you.
Elizabeth Lortardo (33:54):
Thanks for having me.
Announcer (33:56):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
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