October 20, 2025 • 32 mins
What happens when you mix a lifelong fascination with business, a love of personality quizzes, and a career in academic research? You get Kari Olsen, Department Chair at Utah Valley University and this episode’s featured guest! Join host Adam Larson as he chats with Kari about how our unique personality traits shape the way we work, especially in the world of accounting.
Kari shares his journey from delivering newspapers as a kid to leading academic teams, revealing why understanding human behavior is more relevant than ever for organizations. The two discuss everything from the surprising upsides of traits like narcissism, to how managers can use personality insights to build stronger, happier teams. Whether you’re a leader or an employee, you’ll pick up practical tips and fascinating stories that can help you work better with colleagues (and maybe learn a little about yourself along the way).
If you’re curious about how personality shapes performance and culture at work, you won’t want to miss Kari’s fresh take, packed with research and relatable advice!
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Episode Transcript
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Adam Larson (00:05):
Welcome to Count Me In. I'm Adam Larson and today
I'm joined by Olsen, departmentchair at Utah Valley University
and an expert in accounting andpersonality research. In this
episode, Kari shares how hisearly love of business and
personality tests shaped hiscareer leading to his study on
the impact of personality traitson teamwork, leadership, and
decision making at work. Wediscuss why understanding
(00:26):
personality is crucial forimproving firm performance,
exploring surprising insightsabout executives, like when
traits such as narcissism canactually benefit an
organization, and highlight howself awareness can help both
managers and employees thrive.Kari brings practical framework
and advice you'll find valuablewhether you're building teams or
seeking personal growth.
So join us for an engaging diveinto the human side of
(00:48):
accounting and business. Let'sget started. Well, Kari, I'm
really excited to have you onthe podcast today. And today,
we're gonna be covering a paperthat was done and the topics
within it. And I wanted to kindof start with what sparks your
interest in in exploring thingslike personality traits,
(01:10):
especially in the context ofaccounting.
And why is this timely to talkabout today?
Kari Olsen (01:15):
Yeah. So this goes back to when I was a was a kid.
So I had a paper route as a kid.Every afternoon, I'd deliver the
papers. And I'd sit and fold andput rubber bands on the paper,
and I'd sit and read the paper.
And I'd read the sports section,obviously, first because that's
what I loved and was passionateabout. But on the back of the
sports page was the businesssection. And so I'd get done,
(01:38):
and I just, you know, startedreading more about business, and
all the stock tickers at thetime were listed in the paper
and stock changes. And so I justbecame really interested in the
business world in general. Andthen my mom, she was a English
teacher, and she would bringhome all these personality tests
that she would get at schoolfrom other teachers.
You know? They'd just teamthings that they're doing,
(01:59):
whatever. And so that just kindof all meshed in my mind growing
up that I liked business. Iliked the stock market. I liked
the personality angles andseeing what was happening with
people, and that kinda createdmy initial interest.
You know? And today, therepeople are still people. People
have jobs. People go to work.They have bosses.
They have colleagues and to haveto interact. And people have
(02:22):
different views on life anddifferent preferences. And
that's really what personalityis. It's kinda like your
preference or inclination fordoing things on how you process
the world. And I think that'stimely because we're so
connected.
We see social media. We knowwhat's happening in people's
lives. We're more attuned to theforefront of decisions people
are making and manifestations oftheir personality. So I think
(02:46):
it's really important now tounderstand it at a deep academic
level. So it's not juststereotypes.
Right? It's a it's a truegrounded scientific approach to
understand what personality is.I really like that the thought
that no matter what division youwork in an organization, no
matter where you are, we're alljust humans and we're people,
(03:06):
and we all interact with eachother like other humans do.
Adam Larson (03:09):
And I think sometimes when we get lost in
the language of business, youget lost in the ethereal
comments about business, weforget that we're all just
humans trying to work to acommon good, and that's kind of
what businesses are. And it'shard to because some people some
this is marketing person. That'san accounting person. No. It's
just a person who happens to beworking in that division.
Kari Olsen (03:29):
Absolutely. And it and it is about those
connections.
Adam Larson (03:32):
Like Mhmm.
Kari Olsen (03:33):
Know, we have tasks that we have to complete in any
type of job, and personalitywill actually inform kind of a
sorting into different tasksthat people have preferences
for. But at any level, right,you are interacting with other
people. You're communicating.You form different teams, and
understanding personality canreally help, you know, adjust
(03:53):
how you might interact withpeople. It might adjust
assignments that people would becomfortable with at work.
I see that, like, in my coauthorteams. I've got about twenty,
twenty five coauthors that I doacademic work with, and they're
all very different. Even thoughwe're all accounting professors,
we still have uniquepersonalities and preferences.
And, you know, some people wouldrather have a Teams or Zoom
(04:17):
call, and other people wannahave an in person meeting. And
some people are really goodabout taking risks, and other
people are like, no.
Let's be more cautious. And soall of those interactions,
that's a day to day life. Andthat's what I think provides the
meaning to life is your socialconnections and relationships.
And so I think understandingpeople better can then help you
(04:39):
do better at work. It's goesbeyond that to community and
family, but, certainly, my focusis more the work setting and how
it affects people.
Adam Larson (04:48):
Yeah. So in your paper, you introduced, like, a a
new framework. Maybe you canwalk through some of the
components of that frameworkbecause, you know, it wouldn't
be a good, you know, researchpaper without a good framework
to offer. Right?
Kari Olsen (05:00):
That's right. So it's a it's a very simple idea
that people we start with thepeople, and they have different
traits. And the psychologyresearch, you know, has a whole
thing about nature versusnurture where those traits come.
That's not really our scope.We're we're accounting
professors here.
So we kinda just do a littlehand waving and say, look.
(05:20):
There's great research if youwanna study more of that deeply.
We kinda pick it up at the atthe stage of as people go
interact, they're gonna interactwith different environments, and
that could be a style of workwhere you might have an
organization that's, you know,very micromanaging or the
environment is veryentrepreneurial. And then
they'll have tasks that could bereally tedious, could be open
(05:43):
ended, could be creative. And sothe personality will kinda
interact with how peopleapproach their situation.
And so it's kind of this in theacademic world, it's a person
situation interaction. Right?And that will then manifest in
our accounting world injudgments, decisions, choices
that people are going to make.And, ultimately, that will then
(06:06):
lead to firm performanceoutcomes. That could be at the
employee level or big picturefinancial performance for a
firm.
And so it's just kinda walkingalong that causal chain of
people interacting withdifferent environments, and
their personality will affecthow they respond. And then that
will affect choices, decisions,which ultimately affects firm
(06:30):
performance outcomes. And so wepick up in our research over the
years with my coauthor teams atdifferent stages. Let's look at
this really specific interactionand understand it better. Or,
hey.
This for firm outcome is reallyimportant in the marketplace.
Let's understand kind of theprecepts that that led to that
(06:50):
outcome taking place. So that'skind of the overall framework.
Adam Larson (06:55):
Do you think it would be it would behoove, like,
leaders in organizations tounderstand the personalities of
the people that are on theirteams and know how they can work
together better? Is that andwhen you're even hiring new
people, are you trying to get agauge for their personality to
see if it'll fit with among theteam?
Kari Olsen (07:11):
Absolutely. And in fact, I would say it actually
begins with the managerthemselves. That there'll be
some introspection to understandif if they're gonna have
subordinates, right, thatthey're gonna bring on or people
they're gonna work with.Understanding their own
personality and styles isprobably actually the first
place I'd tell them to start.And then you can go into what
personalities would do well inthis job.
(07:33):
Yeah. There's one trait thatI've I've done some recent work
on called need for cognition,and that's someone's inclination
to really think throughdetailed, right, and understand,
you know, where do numbers comefrom and things like that. Well,
accountants generally of arehigh on need for cognition.
Right? They're they're in thedetails of numbers.
(07:53):
They understand journal entries.They you know, that that's their
job. It's very task based.Right? Where we see that maybe
taking place is, like, in afeedback.
Right? Because if someone isgetting detailed feedback, high
need for cognition person isalready doing that. They're
already thinking that way. Butif you have someone that's low
need for cognition, they don'tthink that way. Right?
(08:14):
And so now you need a feedbackmechanism that provides more
detailed prompts. And so we didthis in one of our studies, and
we found that providing, youknow, these more detailed
prompts with some relativeperformance helped people with
low need for cognition dobetter. And so those are subtle
things where it's kind of a taskbase. And when then you get in a
group setting on a team, youmight have traits that I've
(08:37):
studied like entitlement ornarcissism, and these really
affect how the the social viewof others is is put together.
Right?
So if I'm entitled, I feel likeI'm more deserving than other
people. Right? And that mantrakinda goes through all of my
interactions. It affects how Iview a day to day job and what
(08:59):
assignments are given to otherpeople, who's responsible for
things. It affects how I viewperformance being evaluated.
And so a manager should bemindful of maybe some of these
malignant kind of unfavorabletraits that can happen on teams.
Because if you introduce that,it could be toxic. Right? You
have a hostile work environment.It could be very disruptive.
(09:22):
You don't have team camaraderie.So firm culture, firm CEOs,
managers will set that. Like,here's our strategic mission.
Here's what we want. But if youdon't match that with the people
that can help create thatorganically, you'll have a lot
of disconnect.
Wow.
Adam Larson (09:40):
There's there's so much there that we could say
about. Right? Man, we could goso many directing It would
directions. But I I think someone thing that picked up on,
like, the the whole things like,you know, narcissism, those are,
you know, those are traits thata lot of times has a very
negative connotation. Right?
You see, oh, that person's anarcissist. You can if you put
type that term in any socialmedia, it'll come up with
(10:01):
hundreds of videos of how todeal with narcissists and all
that kind of stuff. But theyaren't a lot of times you see
things like not narcissism andoverconfidence, especially in,
like, executives. And, you know,I talked about that, you know,
when we when we met previously.And, you know, what are some
surprising things that you findwhen you see that in in people
at at the higher level?
And how do you kind of work withthose people? Because with the
(10:22):
with the negativity toward thosepersonality traits, sometimes
you wanna completely shut offand you don't wanna do anything
with have anything to do withthem, but that's kind of
impossible. Absolutely. And what
Kari Olsen (10:32):
we what we generally would see in, like, the media or
reports or at a family party,and people are complaining about
their boss, right Yeah. Whomight be very narcissistic.
Right? One of the telltaletraits of a narcissist is they
lack empathy. Right?
And that means that at ainterpersonal level, they often
kind of struggle to connect withothers, right, because they're
(10:55):
they're lacking empathy. Thatsaid, narcissism is just an
everyday personality trait. Justlike self esteem or need for
cognition, people have this on acontinuum. And there are
actually seven the academicliterature says there's seven
sub facets of narcissism. Sosome of them might stand out
(11:15):
like vanity.
Right? That that they they wannalook good. Right? Exploitative.
Right?
And it's hard to imagine there'sa lot of great things coming out
of someone who's beingexploitative. Right? And so we
see that anecdotally, but someof these other traits like self
sufficiency, that actually mightbe a really good thing for
(11:37):
someone who's gonna lead out asa leader, manager, executive,
where the job often is kind oflonely. They have to make
decisions. And so having a astrong sense that, hey.
I can do this, and I can makethat decision, that would rate
them higher on the narcissismscale, but it's not obvious that
that's undesirable. And so in alot of my research, you know, we
(11:59):
find that narcissistic CEOs'average performance is better.
They have higher earnings pershare. They have higher stock
prices, firms they lead. Nowsometimes they might be
accomplishing that through amyopic short term view because
they're trying to makethemselves look good.
But, you know, across thespectrum, when we have political
leaders, when we have businessleaders, they need a sense of
(12:23):
charisma to rally the troops, toput out a vision. They need a
sense of taking risks in orderto you know, in face adversity
rather than being less I mean, Iand, like, more conservative,
they still will take risks. Andon the other side of risk is
reward. And so for a business,sometimes that's the best thing
you can have is someone who'sgonna take big, big risks. And
(12:48):
so narcissism, rightly so, getsa lot of interpersonal conflict.
But if you watch, a lot oftimes, the stories are about,
wow. They they didn't listen tofeedback or they were harsh in
not understanding my situation.But when it comes to leading a
team and managing a firm orcountry or whatever it might be
(13:08):
as a leader, a narcissisticpersonality can actually have
some good outcomes. And I'veseen that in the data, and that
was initially a littlesurprising, but, you know, I've
I've seen both. There'sfavorable outcomes, and there's
on the on the side that thereare some shortsightedness that
comes from that.
Adam Larson (13:27):
Yeah. Well and and as you're pointing out, it's
narcissism isn't all, quote,unquote, bad necessarily.
There's elements of it that canhave negative effects toward
other people. And and I thinkthat you have to kind of balance
those two things when becausethere's a lot of aspects that
narcissism and especially in ina CEO, like you were saying, can
(13:48):
cause, like, great strides in anorganization and having to
balance that with people anddealing with people. Like, you
have to you have to take onother traits in order to be
successful at both almost.
Kari Olsen (14:00):
Yeah. So let me give you a couple of other findings
from the narcissism mynarcissism research. So we
looked at kind of, are they moreaggressive in their taxes?
Because they are, you know,sense of superiority. Their risk
they they take risks.
Right? So a lot of the tax lawis just, like, more likely than
not. So it's like, you're if 51%confident that that this is
(14:25):
within the guidelines, you cankinda take more aggressive
positions. Right? So it's notsaying, hey.
They're committing for taxfraud. Right? It's it's just
saying that they might takepositions that are less
conservative, right, on this.Well, this has a fundamental
explanation. They are moreaggressive in their taxes.
(14:45):
They have lower effective taxrates. This frees up millions of
dollars of cash for the firm.And one of the other things
narcissistic CEOs do is theyempire build. They're gonna go
do an acquisition. Right?
And so their use their theirpersonality is being manifest in
a little more aggressive taxpositions that frees up cash
that then they can go empirebuild and make the firm expand.
(15:10):
So, you know, is that a goodback outcome or a bad outcome?
Right? I mean, we have to lookat specifics, but the on average
effect and, you know, we havesamples of, S and P 1,500 firms.
Yeah.
The on average effect suggeststhat, hey. They're using their
discretion within accountingrules to meet their ends of
(15:34):
expanding their empire. And thatactually, for a executive, might
be a really good strategic move.Yeah. To label things like
favorable or unfavorable, good,bad, it's really nuanced when
you see that.
So Yeah. It is. And and Iappreciate that that that you
said that because I I thinksometimes certain items get bad
(15:58):
press,
Adam Larson (15:59):
and because of that, we stay away from them.
But it's like, wait. We have tolook at it holistically in a
sense.
Kari Olsen (16:04):
That's right. One other one. So if we if we look
at, like, a financial reportingcycle Yeah. Firms issue
forecasts, then they haveanalysts who respond, then we
have the actual earnings comeout, and then they could use non
GAAP measures after the fact. SoI've studied that whole cycle of
narcissistic CEOs.
(16:25):
Before earnings, when they issueforecasts, they do a good job.
They're just as good as everyother manager. It's a signal of
their ability. It makes themlook good. And then we get to
their actual earnings, and itturns out they're doing better.
Right? Higher stock prices,higher earnings per share.
They're more likely to meet orbeat earnings. But then on the
the kind of the deviousnesscomes out after the fact, if if
(16:48):
they haven't looked good throughthose means, they'll use non
GAAP measures after the fact.They're more likely to use them.
They have bigger magnitude ofadjustments. And when we look,
they're lower quality. Sothey're they're using them kind
of in a
Adam Larson (17:03):
way
Kari Olsen (17:03):
to, again, use the discretion in the in the
financial reporting world tomake themselves look good. And
on the one hand, they'rebehaving really well. On the
other hand, they might be doingsomething a little just to try
to make themselves look good.You know, if you just say, hey.
Narcissists are always bad.
It's like, well, actually, whenthe incentives align, this is
actually potentially a abeneficial thing. Right? So it's
(17:26):
being aware of that wholepicture of what's the situate
and that goes back to ourframework. What's the situation?
What's the incentives?
And how does the personalityinteract with that? Yeah. Now I
wanted to to shift theconversation a
Adam Larson (17:41):
little bit back to, like, to personality
assessments. You know, youmentioned, like, when you were
young, your mom would bring themhome. Like, I remember having to
take them in college. And Yeah.And I remember when I remember
when I started doing online jobapplications or or computerized
job applications.
You go to a place, and they havea a specific computer to take an
application, and there was whatessentially was a personality
assessment. Were like
Kari Olsen (18:00):
Yeah.
Adam Larson (18:00):
Well, if this happens, what would you do?
Kinda, you know, those kind ofquestions. And so, I guess, it's
twofold. Like, you know,obviously, this is great data
that firms can use to kinda helpstrengthen teams and understand.
But, also, you know, if ifyou've taken a number of these
personality assessments, thequestions all sound very
similar.
And and sometimes internally,you feel, oh, I know how to
answer this, or I know what theywant me to say. And so, like,
(18:24):
what do you how do you balance,like, hey. This is great data
you can use as a team versus,you know, the person side of it
where, you know, there might canthe answers kinda get jaded over
time the more you have to takethese?
Kari Olsen (18:35):
Yeah. So at a high level, it's it's just one input.
I wouldn't base any decision onhiring or promoting simply off
of personality tests. It's justone input. Yeah.
And sometimes people bristle it.Oh, they're using personality of
this sort. I mean, what'shappening when you do an
interview? Like, you're askingthem about competencies and
(18:59):
abilities, but you're alsoassessing to a large extent
their fit within theorganization, their personality.
Right?
And so Mhmm. If you can do itthrough an interview, you can
also do it through asystematized way that is backed
by quality research that has theright statistics and all those
things. And there is kind of,like, you know, some personality
(19:20):
tests you took are kinda justfun. You know? They may sort you
into different buckets orcategories.
I did one with my kids recently.Like, you know, which which
house of Harry Potter would yoube sorted into? Right? Yep. So
they're fun, and they usuallythey do kind of connect with us.
Like, oh, yeah. It sounds prettytrue. Right? From an academic
(19:41):
standpoint, we want a littlemore robust measures. And,
really, what that means is theyhave better psychometrics.
They're more reliable. The theitems move together. Right? And
some of those bucket ones don'tquite do that, but they're fun.
So, yes, people could.
Oh, there is kind of this, oh,they expect this. But, you know,
(20:01):
generally, if you have enoughquestions that you can sort
through, people generally arevery honest. Some of the
commonly used scales are justone question. People know what
if they're narcissist or not.People usually generally know
that.
Mhmm. And so for managers, youknow, I'd say it's one input,
but it's something that can havered flags in terms of maybe this
(20:23):
is a too strong malignant traitthat we wouldn't want in our
firm. More generally, though,it's just gonna be just a piece
of the puzzle, right, that helpsyou know, hey. You know, that
person I didn't realize was anintrovert or extrovert. Or Yeah.
Didn't realize that they like ahigh need for cognition. They're
(20:43):
like, think through things. Andthat might affect placement on
teams. You know, managers willhave different styles. Maybe
some are more hands on, handsoff that might influence who I
put with which team, which tasksget assigned to different
groups.
So it's never, like, the endall, be all, but it on the
margin, I definitely think itmakes sense. Managers are
(21:04):
already doing this. Right? Youmake that judgment as a manager.
Adam Larson (21:09):
Mhmm.
Kari Olsen (21:09):
So having data that is vetted that can help guide
your decision makes a ton ofsense. So I've seen more and
more firms embedding somepersonality traits. A lot of
firms will do it after the fact.Like, hey. We hired you.
Come to this training, and webrought this expert in, and
they're doing personality stuffand team building. Well, do that
(21:31):
before you hire the people.Right? Don't just because you
can't really change people'spersonalities. So I I think
having that part of the hiringprocess, promotion process can
make a lot of sense.
Adam Larson (21:44):
It can make a lot of sense. But, also, I see the
value of of people who arealready in your firm too. And I
guess, like, when so when you'retrying to hire somebody, it's
like those first two dates whenyou're dating somebody. You're
putting your best foot forward.You're not showing them what you
look like when you first get outof bed.
You're not showing all thosedifferent things. All those
things come out later. And sohow can a firm really truly see
(22:05):
a personality of somebody ifthey're always putting their
best foot forward in thatbeginning stage before they hire
somebody?
Kari Olsen (22:10):
Well, it kind of goes back to my answer on where
executives start. They startwith themselves. And so I I
think a lot of the value inpersonality, team building,
leadership development, allthose things, it's for the
individual becoming more selfaware. And so it's not
necessarily about see themanager seeing that person's
(22:33):
purse best foot forward. It'sthat person realizing, wow.
This is my personality. What canI do to make adjustments? Right?
I didn't realize that I waslacking empathy. Well, I can now
find ways to develop that.
I didn't realize that Istruggled to interact socially,
and I had hesitations because ofmy personality. Well, what can I
(22:55):
do differently? So I think itstarts with just individual
personal awareness and growth,right, having that that mindset
that I'm going to develop andgrow. You know, managers aren't
gonna change the personality,but I think they can see that
individuals could change theperson their their and that's
the thing. Like, you know, Imight know maybe I'd run hot,
(23:17):
and I'm I'm prone to anger.
Right? And that that's just mymy personality. I'm not gonna
necessarily change that, but I'mgonna learn how to manage that.
Right? And so if I getpersonality training, leadership
development training, teamtraining, I can learn to be more
self aware of that, whattriggers me, maybe adjustments I
need to make.
(23:37):
And, really, at work, if youstart seeing people after a
couple weeks, months, theirpersonality will come out.
They're not always gonna be ontheir best foot forward. Right?
Yeah. So teams will managerswill figure that out.
Adam Larson (23:49):
I like that. You know, get to know yourself and
your own personality and yourown traits because it when
you're doing that work, it'seasier to identify that among
others. And so you it kinda itcauses you to kinda be more
aware, self aware
Kari Olsen (24:01):
in a sense. That that's exactly right. Right? So
I noticed when I was growing up,I was not I I used prone to
anger as an interesting onebecause, you know, I was not hot
headed or anything. And then Ihad kids, and I realized there
were some situations that becameso stressful in the moment that
I would get angry or mad.
(24:23):
Right? Yeah. And so as apersonality researcher, I wanted
to understand this better, so I,you know, read some some books
and things that kinda talk aboutthat, you know, and it helped me
then see when others, right, getangry or frustrated at work. I'm
like, yeah. That that might beexplained by the situations
(24:43):
being too stressful.
It's activating theirpersonality that they're a
little prone to anger. So I needto be aware as a manager to keep
those situations less stressfulfor that individual. Mhmm. So
I'm currently a a departmentchair in my department, and
there was one there's oneindividual I'm thinking of that
(25:03):
was a little hot headed. Right?
And, initially, it was reallydifficult. And then I I I
remembered this. Like, oh, yeah.I I get hot headed sometimes.
Like, what is triggering it?
And so I was able to be morereflective as a supervisor about
what caused that reaction fromthat person rather than just be
upset or, you know, come downhard on that individual. I could
(25:27):
then talk about, hey. I noticedthat you got angry when these
things happened. What can we doto help that in the future? So
Yeah.
Understanding myself better,like you said, helped me
understand this individualbetter. And I feel like as a
manager, I handled it better,where, generally, I would have
been like, wow. That's so sodifficult. Let's just move that
(25:48):
person. Let's you know?
Let's actually able to manage,like, manage the situation.
Right? Let's let's talk aboutit. Let's fix it. Let's make
some adjustments.
And works improved a lot forthat individual.
Adam Larson (26:00):
That's a I think that's a great example of
remembering that there's more tothe story than what you see.
This person blowing up at itover a moment, you're like, hold
on a second. What happenedyesterday? What happened this
morning that caused you to blowup like that? As opposed to just
completely writing them offbecause in especially, you know,
if especially if some if it'ssome not something they see or
(26:20):
it is happening often, you know,you recognize that moment
because of your own selfreflection, which
Kari Olsen (26:26):
I think is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And then and then
you make the adjustments. LikeYeah.
Maybe this person would thrivein a less stressful assignment.
Mhmm. Maybe they work better ontheir own a little bit, a little
more autonomous work rather thanheavy handed oversight. And
(26:46):
those are, like, little informalthings that you can do as a
manager that you know, littleshifts in working interactions
and expectations that is stillfair to everyone, but each
person, there's just a littlebit of a different style, right,
that that you might approachthem with. And understanding
personality can really help dothose things.
Adam Larson (27:08):
Yeah. So based on this conversation, if somebody
is not a manager and they'rejust, you know, just a employee
who's working for a thing andthey don't they report to people
and they're listening to this,they're like, okay. Great. I
need to do work on myself. Buthow would they approach bringing
that to their manager saying,hey.
This is stuff we should do tohelp us be a better team. Like,
what advice would you give themto try to have that
(27:29):
conversation?
Kari Olsen (27:30):
So the the first thing is, right, you gotta be
you gotta be grounded in, Iwanna say truth, but solid
information. Right? Sometimes wehave information that gets
refined over time, but you wannaapproach these things with check
out what's being said in theacademic world or the best
business books of the time,right, that kinda talk about
(27:52):
things. So it's not what thatdoes for me is it gives you a
resource. It's not just, hey.
We should work on this. It's,hey. Here's some grounded
information that scientists andPhDs have studied and and
learned or experienced based onbusiness practices. Right? We
see a lot of, like, biographiesof great leaders.
And Yeah. You know, you say,hey. This is something that I've
(28:15):
noticed, and it could help ourorganization. It could help our
think. Because there's there canbe so much talk about
personality and and workplacestuff.
I'm grounded, and you gotta haveclear actions. So Yeah. Here's
the information that supports myclaim. Here's some action items
I think would be desirable.Right?
(28:36):
Whether it's a team buildingactivity, whether it's, we need
to go to dinner more as a teamand to get to know each other
better outside of work, whetherit's, hey. Could we structure
our performance reviews slightlydifferent? Whatever it is that
might be a pain point, right,let's get a clear action plan
and just talk openly. And and,hopefully, managers are open
about your honest feelings. Ialways talk with my employees
(29:00):
about let's help find thesituation that helps you be at
your best.
It's not perform the bestcompared to others. It's help
you, yourself, be at your best.Right? Yeah. And so I think if
you can have just honestconversations about this is what
would help me do betterpersonally, Like, I would start
(29:21):
that way.
Like, hey, boss. It would reallyhelp me be better at work if
this were happening, and this ishow I understand it based off of
what I've read or what Iunderstand about this situation.
I think a lot of people would beopen to that.
Adam Larson (29:36):
Yeah. I think they would. You know, like, hey. Hey,
boss. I read this great articleby Kari Olsen, you know, and a
bunch of other people, and Ithink it's really cool, and
here's these other books andthese references.
You know? But it I think it isbeing able to approach it from
that, hey. This is what I thiswould help me do my work better.
If the boss is paying attentionenough, they'd be like, oh,
(29:57):
wait. Maybe this might helpother people too.
Kari Olsen (30:00):
Yeah. So I I primarily teach an MBA program.
Adam Larson (30:04):
Okay.
Kari Olsen (30:05):
And these are people who are mid career, right,
aspiring to greatness. And it'sso often where in my class, we
talk about management controlsystems, and these are Yeah.
Much in line with my theresearch we've been talking
about. And so often, they'llsay, hey. After class, I went
and talked to my boss about whatwe talked about in class and had
(30:26):
a dialogue.
Right? And that's one of myfavorite moments is just instant
applicability of we talked aboutperformance feedback, or we
talked about performancemeasures, or we talked about
hiring or firing people. Andthey instantly go to work in an
honest conversation referencing,hey. I read this in my class,
(30:47):
and we talked about it. What doyou think?
And this is how it helped me.That's one of the most
satisfying moments as a teacherto see it. And it's it's
actually surprised me over theyears how immediately when you
latch on to some topic that tiesto people and personalities, my
class just lights up. I mean, Ihad this experience. I had this
(31:10):
experience.
And then they go and act on itand try to improve their work
for themselves and theirorganization. And, really,
that's that's all I could askfor as a business educator.
Adam Larson (31:21):
Yeah. You really can. That's awesome. Well, Kari,
this has been a greatconversation. I really
appreciate you coming on,sharing your insight, the
research you've done, and justreal, like, practical
application for those who aredoing it every day because we
all work in organizations, andwe have to figure out how to
deal with each other and workwith each other.
So I really appreciate yourinsights.
Kari Olsen (31:40):
Thanks. It's been great to have have this
conversation, and thanks forhaving time.
Announcer (31:46):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
Welcome to Count Me In. I'm Adam Larson and today
I'm joined by Olsen, departmentchair at Utah Valley University
and an expert in accounting andpersonality research. In this
episode, Kari shares how hisearly love of business and
personality tests shaped hiscareer leading to his study on
the impact of personality traitson teamwork, leadership, and
decision making at work. Wediscuss why understanding
(00:26):
personality is crucial forimproving firm performance,
exploring surprising insightsabout executives, like when
traits such as narcissism canactually benefit an
organization, and highlight howself awareness can help both
managers and employees thrive.Kari brings practical framework
and advice you'll find valuablewhether you're building teams or
seeking personal growth.
So join us for an engaging diveinto the human side of
(00:48):
accounting and business. Let'sget started. Well, Kari, I'm
really excited to have you onthe podcast today. And today,
we're gonna be covering a paperthat was done and the topics
within it. And I wanted to kindof start with what sparks your
interest in in exploring thingslike personality traits,
(01:10):
especially in the context ofaccounting.
And why is this timely to talkabout today?
Kari Olsen (01:15):
Yeah. So this goes back to when I was a was a kid.
So I had a paper route as a kid.Every afternoon, I'd deliver the
papers. And I'd sit and fold andput rubber bands on the paper,
and I'd sit and read the paper.
And I'd read the sports section,obviously, first because that's
what I loved and was passionateabout. But on the back of the
sports page was the businesssection. And so I'd get done,
(01:38):
and I just, you know, startedreading more about business, and
all the stock tickers at thetime were listed in the paper
and stock changes. And so I justbecame really interested in the
business world in general. Andthen my mom, she was a English
teacher, and she would bringhome all these personality tests
that she would get at schoolfrom other teachers.
You know? They'd just teamthings that they're doing,
(01:59):
whatever. And so that just kindof all meshed in my mind growing
up that I liked business. Iliked the stock market. I liked
the personality angles andseeing what was happening with
people, and that kinda createdmy initial interest.
You know? And today, therepeople are still people. People
have jobs. People go to work.They have bosses.
They have colleagues and to haveto interact. And people have
(02:22):
different views on life anddifferent preferences. And
that's really what personalityis. It's kinda like your
preference or inclination fordoing things on how you process
the world. And I think that'stimely because we're so
connected.
We see social media. We knowwhat's happening in people's
lives. We're more attuned to theforefront of decisions people
are making and manifestations oftheir personality. So I think
(02:46):
it's really important now tounderstand it at a deep academic
level. So it's not juststereotypes.
Right? It's a it's a truegrounded scientific approach to
understand what personality is.I really like that the thought
that no matter what division youwork in an organization, no
matter where you are, we're alljust humans and we're people,
(03:06):
and we all interact with eachother like other humans do.
Adam Larson (03:09):
And I think sometimes when we get lost in
the language of business, youget lost in the ethereal
comments about business, weforget that we're all just
humans trying to work to acommon good, and that's kind of
what businesses are. And it'shard to because some people some
this is marketing person. That'san accounting person. No. It's
just a person who happens to beworking in that division.
Kari Olsen (03:29):
Absolutely. And it and it is about those
connections.
Adam Larson (03:32):
Like Mhmm.
Kari Olsen (03:33):
Know, we have tasks that we have to complete in any
type of job, and personalitywill actually inform kind of a
sorting into different tasksthat people have preferences
for. But at any level, right,you are interacting with other
people. You're communicating.You form different teams, and
understanding personality canreally help, you know, adjust
(03:53):
how you might interact withpeople. It might adjust
assignments that people would becomfortable with at work.
I see that, like, in my coauthorteams. I've got about twenty,
twenty five coauthors that I doacademic work with, and they're
all very different. Even thoughwe're all accounting professors,
we still have uniquepersonalities and preferences.
And, you know, some people wouldrather have a Teams or Zoom
(04:17):
call, and other people wannahave an in person meeting. And
some people are really goodabout taking risks, and other
people are like, no.
Let's be more cautious. And soall of those interactions,
that's a day to day life. Andthat's what I think provides the
meaning to life is your socialconnections and relationships.
And so I think understandingpeople better can then help you
(04:39):
do better at work. It's goesbeyond that to community and
family, but, certainly, my focusis more the work setting and how
it affects people.
Adam Larson (04:48):
Yeah. So in your paper, you introduced, like, a a
new framework. Maybe you canwalk through some of the
components of that frameworkbecause, you know, it wouldn't
be a good, you know, researchpaper without a good framework
to offer. Right?
Kari Olsen (05:00):
That's right. So it's a it's a very simple idea
that people we start with thepeople, and they have different
traits. And the psychologyresearch, you know, has a whole
thing about nature versusnurture where those traits come.
That's not really our scope.We're we're accounting
professors here.
So we kinda just do a littlehand waving and say, look.
(05:20):
There's great research if youwanna study more of that deeply.
We kinda pick it up at the atthe stage of as people go
interact, they're gonna interactwith different environments, and
that could be a style of workwhere you might have an
organization that's, you know,very micromanaging or the
environment is veryentrepreneurial. And then
they'll have tasks that could bereally tedious, could be open
(05:43):
ended, could be creative. And sothe personality will kinda
interact with how peopleapproach their situation.
And so it's kind of this in theacademic world, it's a person
situation interaction. Right?And that will then manifest in
our accounting world injudgments, decisions, choices
that people are going to make.And, ultimately, that will then
(06:06):
lead to firm performanceoutcomes. That could be at the
employee level or big picturefinancial performance for a
firm.
And so it's just kinda walkingalong that causal chain of
people interacting withdifferent environments, and
their personality will affecthow they respond. And then that
will affect choices, decisions,which ultimately affects firm
(06:30):
performance outcomes. And so wepick up in our research over the
years with my coauthor teams atdifferent stages. Let's look at
this really specific interactionand understand it better. Or,
hey.
This for firm outcome is reallyimportant in the marketplace.
Let's understand kind of theprecepts that that led to that
(06:50):
outcome taking place. So that'skind of the overall framework.
Adam Larson (06:55):
Do you think it would be it would behoove, like,
leaders in organizations tounderstand the personalities of
the people that are on theirteams and know how they can work
together better? Is that andwhen you're even hiring new
people, are you trying to get agauge for their personality to
see if it'll fit with among theteam?
Kari Olsen (07:11):
Absolutely. And in fact, I would say it actually
begins with the managerthemselves. That there'll be
some introspection to understandif if they're gonna have
subordinates, right, thatthey're gonna bring on or people
they're gonna work with.Understanding their own
personality and styles isprobably actually the first
place I'd tell them to start.And then you can go into what
personalities would do well inthis job.
(07:33):
Yeah. There's one trait thatI've I've done some recent work
on called need for cognition,and that's someone's inclination
to really think throughdetailed, right, and understand,
you know, where do numbers comefrom and things like that. Well,
accountants generally of arehigh on need for cognition.
Right? They're they're in thedetails of numbers.
(07:53):
They understand journal entries.They you know, that that's their
job. It's very task based.Right? Where we see that maybe
taking place is, like, in afeedback.
Right? Because if someone isgetting detailed feedback, high
need for cognition person isalready doing that. They're
already thinking that way. Butif you have someone that's low
need for cognition, they don'tthink that way. Right?
(08:14):
And so now you need a feedbackmechanism that provides more
detailed prompts. And so we didthis in one of our studies, and
we found that providing, youknow, these more detailed
prompts with some relativeperformance helped people with
low need for cognition dobetter. And so those are subtle
things where it's kind of a taskbase. And when then you get in a
group setting on a team, youmight have traits that I've
(08:37):
studied like entitlement ornarcissism, and these really
affect how the the social viewof others is is put together.
Right?
So if I'm entitled, I feel likeI'm more deserving than other
people. Right? And that mantrakinda goes through all of my
interactions. It affects how Iview a day to day job and what
(08:59):
assignments are given to otherpeople, who's responsible for
things. It affects how I viewperformance being evaluated.
And so a manager should bemindful of maybe some of these
malignant kind of unfavorabletraits that can happen on teams.
Because if you introduce that,it could be toxic. Right? You
have a hostile work environment.It could be very disruptive.
(09:22):
You don't have team camaraderie.So firm culture, firm CEOs,
managers will set that. Like,here's our strategic mission.
Here's what we want. But if youdon't match that with the people
that can help create thatorganically, you'll have a lot
of disconnect.
Wow.
Adam Larson (09:40):
There's there's so much there that we could say
about. Right? Man, we could goso many directing It would
directions. But I I think someone thing that picked up on,
like, the the whole things like,you know, narcissism, those are,
you know, those are traits thata lot of times has a very
negative connotation. Right?
You see, oh, that person's anarcissist. You can if you put
type that term in any socialmedia, it'll come up with
(10:01):
hundreds of videos of how todeal with narcissists and all
that kind of stuff. But theyaren't a lot of times you see
things like not narcissism andoverconfidence, especially in,
like, executives. And, you know,I talked about that, you know,
when we when we met previously.And, you know, what are some
surprising things that you findwhen you see that in in people
at at the higher level?
And how do you kind of work withthose people? Because with the
(10:22):
with the negativity toward thosepersonality traits, sometimes
you wanna completely shut offand you don't wanna do anything
with have anything to do withthem, but that's kind of
impossible. Absolutely. And what
Kari Olsen (10:32):
we what we generally would see in, like, the media or
reports or at a family party,and people are complaining about
their boss, right Yeah. Whomight be very narcissistic.
Right? One of the telltaletraits of a narcissist is they
lack empathy. Right?
And that means that at ainterpersonal level, they often
kind of struggle to connect withothers, right, because they're
(10:55):
they're lacking empathy. Thatsaid, narcissism is just an
everyday personality trait. Justlike self esteem or need for
cognition, people have this on acontinuum. And there are
actually seven the academicliterature says there's seven
sub facets of narcissism. Sosome of them might stand out
(11:15):
like vanity.
Right? That that they they wannalook good. Right? Exploitative.
Right?
And it's hard to imagine there'sa lot of great things coming out
of someone who's beingexploitative. Right? And so we
see that anecdotally, but someof these other traits like self
sufficiency, that actually mightbe a really good thing for
(11:37):
someone who's gonna lead out asa leader, manager, executive,
where the job often is kind oflonely. They have to make
decisions. And so having a astrong sense that, hey.
I can do this, and I can makethat decision, that would rate
them higher on the narcissismscale, but it's not obvious that
that's undesirable. And so in alot of my research, you know, we
(11:59):
find that narcissistic CEOs'average performance is better.
They have higher earnings pershare. They have higher stock
prices, firms they lead. Nowsometimes they might be
accomplishing that through amyopic short term view because
they're trying to makethemselves look good.
But, you know, across thespectrum, when we have political
leaders, when we have businessleaders, they need a sense of
(12:23):
charisma to rally the troops, toput out a vision. They need a
sense of taking risks in orderto you know, in face adversity
rather than being less I mean, Iand, like, more conservative,
they still will take risks. Andon the other side of risk is
reward. And so for a business,sometimes that's the best thing
you can have is someone who'sgonna take big, big risks. And
(12:48):
so narcissism, rightly so, getsa lot of interpersonal conflict.
But if you watch, a lot oftimes, the stories are about,
wow. They they didn't listen tofeedback or they were harsh in
not understanding my situation.But when it comes to leading a
team and managing a firm orcountry or whatever it might be
(13:08):
as a leader, a narcissisticpersonality can actually have
some good outcomes. And I'veseen that in the data, and that
was initially a littlesurprising, but, you know, I've
I've seen both. There'sfavorable outcomes, and there's
on the on the side that thereare some shortsightedness that
comes from that.
Adam Larson (13:27):
Yeah. Well and and as you're pointing out, it's
narcissism isn't all, quote,unquote, bad necessarily.
There's elements of it that canhave negative effects toward
other people. And and I thinkthat you have to kind of balance
those two things when becausethere's a lot of aspects that
narcissism and especially in ina CEO, like you were saying, can
(13:48):
cause, like, great strides in anorganization and having to
balance that with people anddealing with people. Like, you
have to you have to take onother traits in order to be
successful at both almost.
Kari Olsen (14:00):
Yeah. So let me give you a couple of other findings
from the narcissism mynarcissism research. So we
looked at kind of, are they moreaggressive in their taxes?
Because they are, you know,sense of superiority. Their risk
they they take risks.
Right? So a lot of the tax lawis just, like, more likely than
not. So it's like, you're if 51%confident that that this is
(14:25):
within the guidelines, you cankinda take more aggressive
positions. Right? So it's notsaying, hey.
They're committing for taxfraud. Right? It's it's just
saying that they might takepositions that are less
conservative, right, on this.Well, this has a fundamental
explanation. They are moreaggressive in their taxes.
(14:45):
They have lower effective taxrates. This frees up millions of
dollars of cash for the firm.And one of the other things
narcissistic CEOs do is theyempire build. They're gonna go
do an acquisition. Right?
And so their use their theirpersonality is being manifest in
a little more aggressive taxpositions that frees up cash
that then they can go empirebuild and make the firm expand.
(15:10):
So, you know, is that a goodback outcome or a bad outcome?
Right? I mean, we have to lookat specifics, but the on average
effect and, you know, we havesamples of, S and P 1,500 firms.
Yeah.
The on average effect suggeststhat, hey. They're using their
discretion within accountingrules to meet their ends of
(15:34):
expanding their empire. And thatactually, for a executive, might
be a really good strategic move.Yeah. To label things like
favorable or unfavorable, good,bad, it's really nuanced when
you see that.
So Yeah. It is. And and Iappreciate that that that you
said that because I I thinksometimes certain items get bad
(15:58):
press,
Adam Larson (15:59):
and because of that, we stay away from them.
But it's like, wait. We have tolook at it holistically in a
sense.
Kari Olsen (16:04):
That's right. One other one. So if we if we look
at, like, a financial reportingcycle Yeah. Firms issue
forecasts, then they haveanalysts who respond, then we
have the actual earnings comeout, and then they could use non
GAAP measures after the fact. SoI've studied that whole cycle of
narcissistic CEOs.
(16:25):
Before earnings, when they issueforecasts, they do a good job.
They're just as good as everyother manager. It's a signal of
their ability. It makes themlook good. And then we get to
their actual earnings, and itturns out they're doing better.
Right? Higher stock prices,higher earnings per share.
They're more likely to meet orbeat earnings. But then on the
the kind of the deviousnesscomes out after the fact, if if
(16:48):
they haven't looked good throughthose means, they'll use non
GAAP measures after the fact.They're more likely to use them.
They have bigger magnitude ofadjustments. And when we look,
they're lower quality. Sothey're they're using them kind
of in a
Adam Larson (17:03):
way
Kari Olsen (17:03):
to, again, use the discretion in the in the
financial reporting world tomake themselves look good. And
on the one hand, they'rebehaving really well. On the
other hand, they might be doingsomething a little just to try
to make themselves look good.You know, if you just say, hey.
Narcissists are always bad.
It's like, well, actually, whenthe incentives align, this is
actually potentially a abeneficial thing. Right? So it's
(17:26):
being aware of that wholepicture of what's the situate
and that goes back to ourframework. What's the situation?
What's the incentives?
And how does the personalityinteract with that? Yeah. Now I
wanted to to shift theconversation a
Adam Larson (17:41):
little bit back to, like, to personality
assessments. You know, youmentioned, like, when you were
young, your mom would bring themhome. Like, I remember having to
take them in college. And Yeah.And I remember when I remember
when I started doing online jobapplications or or computerized
job applications.
You go to a place, and they havea a specific computer to take an
application, and there was whatessentially was a personality
assessment. Were like
Kari Olsen (18:00):
Yeah.
Adam Larson (18:00):
Well, if this happens, what would you do?
Kinda, you know, those kind ofquestions. And so, I guess, it's
twofold. Like, you know,obviously, this is great data
that firms can use to kinda helpstrengthen teams and understand.
But, also, you know, if ifyou've taken a number of these
personality assessments, thequestions all sound very
similar.
And and sometimes internally,you feel, oh, I know how to
answer this, or I know what theywant me to say. And so, like,
(18:24):
what do you how do you balance,like, hey. This is great data
you can use as a team versus,you know, the person side of it
where, you know, there might canthe answers kinda get jaded over
time the more you have to takethese?
Kari Olsen (18:35):
Yeah. So at a high level, it's it's just one input.
I wouldn't base any decision onhiring or promoting simply off
of personality tests. It's justone input. Yeah.
And sometimes people bristle it.Oh, they're using personality of
this sort. I mean, what'shappening when you do an
interview? Like, you're askingthem about competencies and
(18:59):
abilities, but you're alsoassessing to a large extent
their fit within theorganization, their personality.
Right?
And so Mhmm. If you can do itthrough an interview, you can
also do it through asystematized way that is backed
by quality research that has theright statistics and all those
things. And there is kind of,like, you know, some personality
(19:20):
tests you took are kinda justfun. You know? They may sort you
into different buckets orcategories.
I did one with my kids recently.Like, you know, which which
house of Harry Potter would yoube sorted into? Right? Yep. So
they're fun, and they usuallythey do kind of connect with us.
Like, oh, yeah. It sounds prettytrue. Right? From an academic
(19:41):
standpoint, we want a littlemore robust measures. And,
really, what that means is theyhave better psychometrics.
They're more reliable. The theitems move together. Right? And
some of those bucket ones don'tquite do that, but they're fun.
So, yes, people could.
Oh, there is kind of this, oh,they expect this. But, you know,
(20:01):
generally, if you have enoughquestions that you can sort
through, people generally arevery honest. Some of the
commonly used scales are justone question. People know what
if they're narcissist or not.People usually generally know
that.
Mhmm. And so for managers, youknow, I'd say it's one input,
but it's something that can havered flags in terms of maybe this
(20:23):
is a too strong malignant traitthat we wouldn't want in our
firm. More generally, though,it's just gonna be just a piece
of the puzzle, right, that helpsyou know, hey. You know, that
person I didn't realize was anintrovert or extrovert. Or Yeah.
Didn't realize that they like ahigh need for cognition. They're
(20:43):
like, think through things. Andthat might affect placement on
teams. You know, managers willhave different styles. Maybe
some are more hands on, handsoff that might influence who I
put with which team, which tasksget assigned to different
groups.
So it's never, like, the endall, be all, but it on the
margin, I definitely think itmakes sense. Managers are
(21:04):
already doing this. Right? Youmake that judgment as a manager.
Adam Larson (21:09):
Mhmm.
Kari Olsen (21:09):
So having data that is vetted that can help guide
your decision makes a ton ofsense. So I've seen more and
more firms embedding somepersonality traits. A lot of
firms will do it after the fact.Like, hey. We hired you.
Come to this training, and webrought this expert in, and
they're doing personality stuffand team building. Well, do that
(21:31):
before you hire the people.Right? Don't just because you
can't really change people'spersonalities. So I I think
having that part of the hiringprocess, promotion process can
make a lot of sense.
Adam Larson (21:44):
It can make a lot of sense. But, also, I see the
value of of people who arealready in your firm too. And I
guess, like, when so when you'retrying to hire somebody, it's
like those first two dates whenyou're dating somebody. You're
putting your best foot forward.You're not showing them what you
look like when you first get outof bed.
You're not showing all thosedifferent things. All those
things come out later. And sohow can a firm really truly see
(22:05):
a personality of somebody ifthey're always putting their
best foot forward in thatbeginning stage before they hire
somebody?
Kari Olsen (22:10):
Well, it kind of goes back to my answer on where
executives start. They startwith themselves. And so I I
think a lot of the value inpersonality, team building,
leadership development, allthose things, it's for the
individual becoming more selfaware. And so it's not
necessarily about see themanager seeing that person's
(22:33):
purse best foot forward. It'sthat person realizing, wow.
This is my personality. What canI do to make adjustments? Right?
I didn't realize that I waslacking empathy. Well, I can now
find ways to develop that.
I didn't realize that Istruggled to interact socially,
and I had hesitations because ofmy personality. Well, what can I
(22:55):
do differently? So I think itstarts with just individual
personal awareness and growth,right, having that that mindset
that I'm going to develop andgrow. You know, managers aren't
gonna change the personality,but I think they can see that
individuals could change theperson their their and that's
the thing. Like, you know, Imight know maybe I'd run hot,
(23:17):
and I'm I'm prone to anger.
Right? And that that's just mymy personality. I'm not gonna
necessarily change that, but I'mgonna learn how to manage that.
Right? And so if I getpersonality training, leadership
development training, teamtraining, I can learn to be more
self aware of that, whattriggers me, maybe adjustments I
need to make.
(23:37):
And, really, at work, if youstart seeing people after a
couple weeks, months, theirpersonality will come out.
They're not always gonna be ontheir best foot forward. Right?
Yeah. So teams will managerswill figure that out.
Adam Larson (23:49):
I like that. You know, get to know yourself and
your own personality and yourown traits because it when
you're doing that work, it'seasier to identify that among
others. And so you it kinda itcauses you to kinda be more
aware, self aware
Kari Olsen (24:01):
in a sense. That that's exactly right. Right? So
I noticed when I was growing up,I was not I I used prone to
anger as an interesting onebecause, you know, I was not hot
headed or anything. And then Ihad kids, and I realized there
were some situations that becameso stressful in the moment that
I would get angry or mad.
(24:23):
Right? Yeah. And so as apersonality researcher, I wanted
to understand this better, so I,you know, read some some books
and things that kinda talk aboutthat, you know, and it helped me
then see when others, right, getangry or frustrated at work. I'm
like, yeah. That that might beexplained by the situations
(24:43):
being too stressful.
It's activating theirpersonality that they're a
little prone to anger. So I needto be aware as a manager to keep
those situations less stressfulfor that individual. Mhmm. So
I'm currently a a departmentchair in my department, and
there was one there's oneindividual I'm thinking of that
(25:03):
was a little hot headed. Right?
And, initially, it was reallydifficult. And then I I I
remembered this. Like, oh, yeah.I I get hot headed sometimes.
Like, what is triggering it?
And so I was able to be morereflective as a supervisor about
what caused that reaction fromthat person rather than just be
upset or, you know, come downhard on that individual. I could
(25:27):
then talk about, hey. I noticedthat you got angry when these
things happened. What can we doto help that in the future? So
Yeah.
Understanding myself better,like you said, helped me
understand this individualbetter. And I feel like as a
manager, I handled it better,where, generally, I would have
been like, wow. That's so sodifficult. Let's just move that
(25:48):
person. Let's you know?
Let's actually able to manage,like, manage the situation.
Right? Let's let's talk aboutit. Let's fix it. Let's make
some adjustments.
And works improved a lot forthat individual.
Adam Larson (26:00):
That's a I think that's a great example of
remembering that there's more tothe story than what you see.
This person blowing up at itover a moment, you're like, hold
on a second. What happenedyesterday? What happened this
morning that caused you to blowup like that? As opposed to just
completely writing them offbecause in especially, you know,
if especially if some if it'ssome not something they see or
(26:20):
it is happening often, you know,you recognize that moment
because of your own selfreflection, which
Kari Olsen (26:26):
I think is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And then and then
you make the adjustments. LikeYeah.
Maybe this person would thrivein a less stressful assignment.
Mhmm. Maybe they work better ontheir own a little bit, a little
more autonomous work rather thanheavy handed oversight. And
(26:46):
those are, like, little informalthings that you can do as a
manager that you know, littleshifts in working interactions
and expectations that is stillfair to everyone, but each
person, there's just a littlebit of a different style, right,
that that you might approachthem with. And understanding
personality can really help dothose things.
Adam Larson (27:08):
Yeah. So based on this conversation, if somebody
is not a manager and they'rejust, you know, just a employee
who's working for a thing andthey don't they report to people
and they're listening to this,they're like, okay. Great. I
need to do work on myself. Buthow would they approach bringing
that to their manager saying,hey.
This is stuff we should do tohelp us be a better team. Like,
what advice would you give themto try to have that
(27:29):
conversation?
Kari Olsen (27:30):
So the the first thing is, right, you gotta be
you gotta be grounded in, Iwanna say truth, but solid
information. Right? Sometimes wehave information that gets
refined over time, but you wannaapproach these things with check
out what's being said in theacademic world or the best
business books of the time,right, that kinda talk about
(27:52):
things. So it's not what thatdoes for me is it gives you a
resource. It's not just, hey.
We should work on this. It's,hey. Here's some grounded
information that scientists andPhDs have studied and and
learned or experienced based onbusiness practices. Right? We
see a lot of, like, biographiesof great leaders.
And Yeah. You know, you say,hey. This is something that I've
(28:15):
noticed, and it could help ourorganization. It could help our
think. Because there's there canbe so much talk about
personality and and workplacestuff.
I'm grounded, and you gotta haveclear actions. So Yeah. Here's
the information that supports myclaim. Here's some action items
I think would be desirable.Right?
(28:36):
Whether it's a team buildingactivity, whether it's, we need
to go to dinner more as a teamand to get to know each other
better outside of work, whetherit's, hey. Could we structure
our performance reviews slightlydifferent? Whatever it is that
might be a pain point, right,let's get a clear action plan
and just talk openly. And and,hopefully, managers are open
about your honest feelings. Ialways talk with my employees
(29:00):
about let's help find thesituation that helps you be at
your best.
It's not perform the bestcompared to others. It's help
you, yourself, be at your best.Right? Yeah. And so I think if
you can have just honestconversations about this is what
would help me do betterpersonally, Like, I would start
(29:21):
that way.
Like, hey, boss. It would reallyhelp me be better at work if
this were happening, and this ishow I understand it based off of
what I've read or what Iunderstand about this situation.
I think a lot of people would beopen to that.
Adam Larson (29:36):
Yeah. I think they would. You know, like, hey. Hey,
boss. I read this great articleby Kari Olsen, you know, and a
bunch of other people, and Ithink it's really cool, and
here's these other books andthese references.
You know? But it I think it isbeing able to approach it from
that, hey. This is what I thiswould help me do my work better.
If the boss is paying attentionenough, they'd be like, oh,
(29:57):
wait. Maybe this might helpother people too.
Kari Olsen (30:00):
Yeah. So I I primarily teach an MBA program.
Adam Larson (30:04):
Okay.
Kari Olsen (30:05):
And these are people who are mid career, right,
aspiring to greatness. And it'sso often where in my class, we
talk about management controlsystems, and these are Yeah.
Much in line with my theresearch we've been talking
about. And so often, they'llsay, hey. After class, I went
and talked to my boss about whatwe talked about in class and had
(30:26):
a dialogue.
Right? And that's one of myfavorite moments is just instant
applicability of we talked aboutperformance feedback, or we
talked about performancemeasures, or we talked about
hiring or firing people. Andthey instantly go to work in an
honest conversation referencing,hey. I read this in my class,
(30:47):
and we talked about it. What doyou think?
And this is how it helped me.That's one of the most
satisfying moments as a teacherto see it. And it's it's
actually surprised me over theyears how immediately when you
latch on to some topic that tiesto people and personalities, my
class just lights up. I mean, Ihad this experience. I had this
(31:10):
experience.
And then they go and act on itand try to improve their work
for themselves and theirorganization. And, really,
that's that's all I could askfor as a business educator.
Adam Larson (31:21):
Yeah. You really can. That's awesome. Well, Kari,
this has been a greatconversation. I really
appreciate you coming on,sharing your insight, the
research you've done, and justreal, like, practical
application for those who aredoing it every day because we
all work in organizations, andwe have to figure out how to
deal with each other and workwith each other.
So I really appreciate yourinsights.
Kari Olsen (31:40):
Thanks. It's been great to have have this
conversation, and thanks forhaving time.
Announcer (31:46):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
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