November 24, 2025 • 35 mins
Looking for real advice on beating burnout and building a work-life that actually feels good? This episode features Lindsey Barnett, executive coach and bestselling author of "Working Hell to Working Well," joining host Adam Larson for a refreshingly honest chat about rethinking your relationship with work.
Lindsey opens up about her leap from the corporate HR grind to flexible part-time—and what she’s learned about balancing ambition, burnout, and everyday life. Expect practical strategies you can try right away, like mindful moments during your day, “job crafting” to take control of your workload, and how even the simplest actions (like buying a bigger water bottle!) can help recharge your energy.
No generic corporate pep talks here—just easy, actionable ideas and real stories that might finally help you bridge the gap from “working hell” to working well. Tune in for relatable insights, lively conversation, and the reminder that you deserve a work life that fits you.
Check out Lindsey’s bestselling book for even more of her wisdom!
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Episode Transcript
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Adam Larson (00:05):
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Count Me In. I'm
Adam Larson, your host. Andtoday, I'm joined by Lindsey
Barnett, executive coach andbestselling author of working
hell to working well. Lindsayshares her story of moving from
a world of corporate HR todesigning a life with more
balance and purpose.
In this episode, we findpractical ways to tackle burnout
and find true work life harmony.Lindsay offers actionable tips
(00:27):
on mindfulness, job crafting,and communicating your needs
whether you're in a demandingjob or on your own path. If
you're feeling stressed orlooking for realistic changes,
Lindsay's advice will help youget started. Stick around and
discover how small steps canlead to healthier, more
fulfilling work life. Well,Lindsey, thank you so much for
(00:50):
being on the podcast.
I'm excited to talk with youabout workplace and burnout and
a bunch of other thingstogether. I wanted to take a
step back and get to know aboutyour story a little bit because
you took the leap from a fullcorporate HR role to rethinking
your relationship with work, youdid kind of part time stuff. And
so I wonder if you could tell alittle Yeah. Bit about your
Lindsay Barnett (01:10):
Yeah. I mean, I think for me, one of the common
threads in my life when Ireflect back on, you know,
twenty years and generally thecorporate world is I was always
really seeking some form offlexibility. Right? So when my
is I was looking for flexibilityto be able to travel and all my
(01:30):
hobbies and hang out with myfriends and things like that.
And, you know, as I had a familyand have other responsibilities,
I had to really look and figureout, okay, how do I how do I
make this work?
And so when I had companies thatoffered flexible work
arrangements, which now seemlike maybe they have gone to the
(01:52):
wayside, I always took advantageof those. So one of the ones
that you referenced that I tookadvantage of right around, you
know, kind of in the first yearof the pandemic, it was a great
resignation. Companies werethrowing, you know, all sorts of
things at people, and one of theoptions was part time. And so I
(02:16):
pitched working part time to mymanager or boss at the time.
Thankfully, he and I had workedtogether for a while, had a lot
of trust built up, and so I gotapproved to shift to part time
hour.
And it really opened my eyes tothe ways that I had been working
(02:38):
in in the past. And so, youknow, from there, I
unfortunately, the downside topart time is it likely makes it
easier for you to get laid off.Mhmm. So I ended up on the
layoff list, but I ended uppivoting into doing my own
thing, which has been great. AndI have a lot of the flexibility
(03:01):
that I've been seeking.
So it's been great. You don'thave to work for yourself to
have, but, you know, I've I madeit work in in corporations for
many, many years, which is partof what I tried to put into my
book. So
Adam Larson (03:16):
yeah. Yeah. So talk a little bit more about that.
Like, how did working part timekinda help you better understand
your needs and kinda discoverwhat you, you know, what you
needed to make?
Lindsay Barnett (03:24):
I think a lot of it for me really became about
having a nervous system reset.Right? When you're working full
time and you're going frommeetings to meetings to
meetings, and then when all themeetings are done, and then
you're working into the nightand and whatnot, you almost lose
sight of what normal is anymore.And so I think because I shifted
(03:52):
to part time, you know, in a lotof ways, the job didn't fully
exist. Right?
We took a lot of strategicprojects that somebody had to
lead and put it together. So thecombination of the workload
really being well contracted tobe done in a part time schedule
(04:13):
as well as me just having timeand space for being in the rest
of my life really allowed me tosee that work is just part of my
life.
Adam Larson (04:26):
Mhmm.
Lindsay Barnett (04:27):
And I can, you know, really feel into when I am
my best self. Mhmm. And I thinkbeing in that best self place
made me more productive in mypart time role. In a lot of
ways, I feel like I was gettingas much, if not more work done
than I was in my full timeschedule. And I just could feel
(04:48):
into, hey.
Like, this is what it's like tonot be stressed all the time,
frankly.
Adam Larson (04:57):
So that sounds really nice. And I think all of
us would be like, yeah. Can I dothat too? But then reality sits
in, and a lot of us maybe can'tdo part time because of
financial reasons or forwhatever reasons. And, you know,
burnout is a real real thing.
Like, it's really happening fora lot of people. A lot of
organizations are tighteningtheir belt. So if you're not on
the chopping block and getting,oh, you're still there trying to
(05:20):
make everything still work. So,you know, what are some maybe
maybe we could talk about, like,what are some practices that
you've seen can make a realdifference in organizations and
trying to address that burnout?
Lindsay Barnett (05:31):
Yeah. So I think a couple things. Well, I
was able to have the part timeexperience because I'm an
executive coach. What I found isthat a lot of my coaching
clients worked full time hours.They they weren't on a part time
schedule, but a lot of thepractices that either we worked
on or they already had in placereally supported them in having
(05:56):
a better work life harmony.
A lot of it for me comes down tojust mindfulness and how do we
work more more mindfully. So howdo I start to notice that I'm
fidgeting in my chair and mybody is telling me, you need to
take a break. Doesn't matterwhat it is, but you need to take
(06:19):
a break.
Adam Larson (06:19):
Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsay Barnett (06:21):
How how can I, you know, be in tune with my
emotions? Right? Where, okay.I'm working on this project, and
I'm feeling super, superstressed out. Do I need to do to
calm myself?
Do I just need to take somebreaths? Do I need to connect
(06:43):
with a colleague and, you know,just thought partner with them
for a little bit? So a lot of itis figuring out what are the
strategies that are gonna workfor you when you notice that
you're in that place ofoverwhelm or burnout. And I've
had a lot of times before goingto part time. I battled burnout
(07:05):
on a couple occasions whilestill trying to figure out how
to do this in the full timespace.
You know, some of it is takingis having courage to be able to
communicate solutions that willwork for you, and hopefully,
they're win win solutions.Right? You're not walking into
your boss's office with, youknow, these are my list of
(07:25):
demands. Right? Usually, it'sthe little things.
Right? Like, hey. You know, I'vejust absorbed Johnny's work. And
while that's great and I'mexcited about the possibility of
x y z, I wanna look at some ofthis work that is currently on
my plate. Maybe this reportdoesn't need to go out every
(07:49):
week.
Can we ship that to every otherweek? You know, I was thinking
this work that I'm doing, youknow, Susan might be ready for a
new project herself. Right? Shewasn't impacted by the recent
round of layoffs as so manypeople were and are, you know,
and I can tell from myconversations with her, she's
(08:09):
really wanting to grow. Thiswould be developmental for her,
and it would take it off of myplate so I can focus on the new
work or the more strategic work.
So a lot of it is, you know,some of the mindfulness really
looking at ways to what I theterm I like is job craft. Okay.
You know, how do I look at whatI'm doing, what the people are
(08:31):
doing around me, and start to tosee what shifts can be made. But
it it it is work in and ofitself to do that, and you do
need time and space, eithercarved out or otherwise.
Adam Larson (08:47):
Well, it it's funny because when we get so busy,
sometimes the first thing to gois the taking the time to think,
taking the time to betterourselves. Because if we're
doing those things, we becomebetter employees, we can get our
work done better. But if we'reso busy that we have to remove
that, that's I feel like that'swhere the beginning of burnout
starts.
Lindsay Barnett (09:04):
Yeah. It's it's really hard. You have to be
really intentional aboutcreating that time and space
because you're always gonna feellike that it can't exist. And
so, you know, I remember talkingwith one of my coaching clients
who, you know, I think wasfeeling a little bit stuck in
her role. And I asked her about,well, are you networking to, you
(09:28):
know, try to find your your nextopportunity?
And her answer, of course, was,oh, I just I don't have time.
And I said, let's just do anexperiment. Just put thirty
minutes on your calendar,whatever day of the week is the
lightest day, let's say Friday.Just put thirty minutes on your
calendar and try to protect thattime. See what happens with the
rest of your week.
(09:48):
And then when she reported back,she was like, okay. Yeah. I had
I was able to find the time, andI set up a bunch of networking
calls, and now they're on mycalendar, and now we're good.
Right?
Adam Larson (09:58):
Mhmm.
Lindsay Barnett (09:58):
Sometimes it's a little bit of really getting
clear on what are my intentions.You don't have to pick something
really big. It could be pickingsomething small to do. Like, I'm
gonna do a one minute rest inbetween calls of just sitting in
my chair and getting in touchwith my body. That could be
enough.
(10:19):
Whatever it is, it's justfinding that one thing and
committing to it. You'll startto see more and more open up as
you pick the next thing and thenext thing, in my experience at
least.
Adam Larson (10:30):
It's fun. The analogy that kinda came to mind
as you were talking is, like,you don't always need to use an
axe when a scalpel or a smalllittle, like, butter knife will
do. Like, you'd always use youraxe in your in your work time
and your schedules. Just alittle butter knife, like, the
thirty minutes, like you weresaying. Yeah.
It's like that's like a it'sit's something to keep in mind
because you can't always youcan't tackle everything right
(10:51):
away. You have to do smallthings.
Lindsay Barnett (10:53):
Yeah. Like, I'm a huge believer in plan d. Like
like, plan a is dreamy. Right?And sometimes we get stuck in
this black and white thinkingof, you know, and I see this a
lot with people, particularlywith taking care of themselves,
like exercise.
Adam Larson (11:11):
Yeah.
Lindsay Barnett (11:11):
You know, the gym doesn't call you up and say,
hey, it's time to go to the gym,but your boss is emailing you
all the time. So, you know,there's you. You've got to
figure out how to own that foryourself as well as negotiate
with others. So they know whatyour needs are and what you're
trying to do. But, you know,plan d, there are days like I am
(11:32):
committed personally to doingsome meditation and some yoga
every day.
Some days I have a lot of time.Great. I can do, you know, my my
goal time period. Sometimes it'stake a breath, do a downward
dog, and we're on with our day.Right?
But that's my plan D, but Ialways know that I have a plan D
(11:55):
that is still self honoring, andI'm gonna do whatever that looks
like. But most days, it's plan Band C.
Adam Larson (12:03):
No. I I can't help but think of your title, you
know, to your book, Working Hellto Working Well. And it's
interesting because a lot ofstuff we've been talking about
are the steps you need to taketo get from hell to well, I
guess, that that bridge thatgap. And maybe we can start by
just kinda talking a little bit.Like, how do you bridge that
gap?
Because sometimes when you feellike work is hell, it it takes a
(12:25):
a long and it's not an easyprocess to get to
Lindsay Barnett (12:28):
go. And
Adam Larson (12:29):
so maybe we can start by, like, what how do you
start? How do you where do youstart?
Lindsay Barnett (12:32):
So I think there's a couple things to just
call out because for me, I thinkone of my big ahas as I was
writing the book is there's alittle bit of a stalemate that's
happening right now inorganizations. And I think
organizations are saying, hey,it's you. You gotta you gotta
(12:52):
take care of yourself. We justgive you the work and pay the
big bucks. Right?
And then individuals are saying,hey, you're giving me too much
work. I can't I can't take careof myself. Right? But we're
doing this and then we're notgetting anywhere. And so I think
there are a couple things thatfor me really stand out, which
is how do we take a kind of dualaccountability role in all of
(13:20):
this, which is what are thethings that I own that I can do?
And PS, if I can role model thisfor others, it starts to create
a safer space for others to takecare of themselves as well. And
the more of us that are startingto do this, the more we can
(13:43):
shape shift the culture, themore of us there are as allies
to go to the organization, to goto our manager or boss and say,
hey, this is what's working forus.
Adam Larson (13:55):
Mhmm.
Lindsay Barnett (13:56):
So there's a little bit of, I think
everyone's kind of waiting eachother out. And I think what I'm
trying to advocate for is justdo whatever you can. Like, go be
the change. We can't wait fororganizations to change. That's
like asking, you know, Titanicto, like, course, you know,
like, we've gotta do a littlebit at a time together, but role
(14:20):
modeling and making it safe forus all to to start taking
advantage of our well-being cancan help.
But starting with you, butfiguring out what are the things
that, you know, that I can do.And then if you're in a manager
or leadership role, what are thethings that you can do? If
(14:43):
you're in a, you know, an HR ororganizational leader role, what
are the things you can do? Weget I find we sometimes fall so
victim to black and whitethinking of, like, it's all or
nothing that we just don't doanything, and that doesn't serve
us.
Adam Larson (14:57):
Mhmm. Yeah. Processing.
Lindsay Barnett (15:00):
What are you processing there?
Adam Larson (15:01):
You really got me processing because it's one of
those things where that stuffsounds really nice. But what's
like, how about practicalapplication? Because sometimes
when you when these thingshappen, when burnout happens and
organizations are trying to helptheir employees, a lot of times,
what you run into ispresentations with a lot of
corporate jargon and the nicethings from the self help books,
(15:24):
but it's not a lot of, hey, thisis a practical things you can do
to help. And so how do you getfrom, like, this, hey, this
sounds really nice on paper tothese are things I'm actually
doing?
Lindsay Barnett (15:34):
So I think there there are a lot of
different things you can do. Ithink the the key thing that I
would say, though, is there isno silver bullet. So what works
for you may not work for me.There are some general things
that we know help with burnout.So for example, there was a
recent study done by the Societyof Human Resources Management
(15:57):
that said people who experiencea sense of belonging are two and
a half times less likely toexperience burnout.
So if we know some of the, youknow, and there's a ton of
science around burnout andthings like that. But some of it
is figuring out what is it thatis going to work for you. You
(16:18):
know, I'll share an example fromone of my clients. One of my
clients wanted she she's anamazing manager, wanted to be,
you know, always available foranyone who needed her, but she
was doing it at the sacrifice ofher own well-being. Mhmm.
(16:39):
And so one of the things that weworked on was just carving out
thirty minutes for lunch. Whatyou know, and we we literally
had to talk through what's thesmallest increment that you can
feel comfortable managing thethe kind of polarities here of I
I I need to be available and Ialso need to be in my best self.
(17:05):
What's that smallest incrementof what you can do that can
allow you to be okay with both.And so we got to a place of,
well, no one's really gonna missme for thirty minutes. Right?
So she ended up carving outlunch and I was like, amazing.
You're role modeling for yourteam. It's okay to take care of
(17:28):
yourself. You are taking care ofyourself and bonus points, her
husband joined her for lunch. Soshe was building connection with
her husband, taking care ofherself, nourishing herself, and
then she would go back into herday.
So now I give that example. Somepeople listening may be like, I
can't even afford thirty minutesfor lunch. What whatever it is,
(17:51):
it's it's really starting tonotice. Even if you just take a
week, do a time audit, how am Ispending my time? How how do I
wanna be spending my time?
Where are there little thingsthat I can incorporate into my
day? I'll give you one otherexample. I had one client who
(18:13):
was and and she was workingglobal hours. So she really was,
you know, burning the candle atboth ends. And so we just talked
about, well, what are yourcurrent habits?
Like, what do you do now that'seven modestly taking care of
yourself? And she said, well, I,you know, I usually grab tea in
(18:34):
between meetings. I said, great.Let's put a sticky note on your
tea canister that says breathe.So while you're waiting for your
tea to steep, you're bringing inan element of mindfulness.
You're allowing your nervoussystem to regulate a little bit
more. And so we just tried that.Right? So they're just little
(18:59):
things that even though theysound like, how is that gonna
make an impact? You do thatlittle thing, and then you do
the next little thing, and itstarts to build over time.
But you have to have thatintention and that commitment,
which is hard. This is where,you know, working with a coach
is helpful. Right? Like, lot ofmy clients had me in the back of
(19:20):
their head saying, don't forgetto breathe, which sometimes is
the accountability, that that weneed. So understanding how does
how does accountability work foryou can also help.
Adam Larson (19:33):
Yeah. Like, you have a coach? Do you have a
mentor that you can connectwith? A coach, a boss, a
colleague, somebody who you whoyou work in the office with?
Find that person that works foryou because not not everybody
may have access to a executivecoach.
Not everybody may have access toa mentor, but find that person
that works best for you. And itit and it it reminded me again
of another, like, analogy ofthat snowball effect where you
start with a little snowball atthe top of a hill. As it keeps
(19:55):
rolling down, if it's theperfect elements, though that'll
keep growing and growing. And sowe have to do little things to
make big changes, which justsounds weird to say.
Lindsay Barnett (20:06):
I know, but I I don't know. I'm a big believer
in the little things.
Adam Larson (20:09):
Yeah. And you've mentioned mindfulness a couple
times, and I was wondering ifyou could we could maybe take a
step back a little bit and maybeyou could define what you mean
by mindfulness in this case andthat we can help people
understand what we're talkingabout.
Lindsay Barnett (20:22):
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not a mindfulness expert.
Adam Larson (20:26):
Okay.
Lindsay Barnett (20:27):
But I am trained as an integral coach.
And so as an integral coach,what that means is trying to
integrate and help peopleintegrate between the three
intelligence centers. So mindIQ, heart EQ, and body BQ.
Right? So there there are allthese intelligence centers.
(20:49):
And so a lot of us walk aroundas a brain on a body. Right?
Like, we don't really have a lotof connectivity with our
emotions. You know, many peopleonly know kind of happy, sad,
mad. Like, that's the extent ofour emotional, you know,
intelligence around, like, howto name our emotions or our
(21:12):
body.
Right? If you're sitting infront of a computer for eighteen
hours a day, you may begenerally disconnected from your
body. So a lot of what, youknow, I was trained in and what
I try to support clients in isbeing able to access some of
those different centers ofintelligence so that you can
(21:36):
really have a choice in howyou're going to respond to
things. Because if we're notbeing mindful, I think the
shortest answer is when you'remindful, you are not just
reacting, you're responding.You're taking that one second
pause to say Yeah.
What do I want in this nextmoment? I like that.
Adam Larson (21:57):
Yeah. No. That does help because it's one of those
things where you hear that worda lot and, you know, at its base
thing, you're being mindful.You're thinking about something
else. Right?
You're thinking not just ofwhat's right here. That's, like,
at its base level. But Iappreciated that kind of
overarching overview becausewhen it comes to being humans
and working in a corporate in,like, a corporate environment,
(22:17):
any type of businessenvironment, I think sometimes
the lines between employee andhuman kind of blur, and we focus
on, I just have to be theemployee and do the best that I
am. We forget that I'm a human,and I have to remember about how
I'm feeling. And sometimes, hey.
That person said that to me,that really rubbed me the wrong
way, but I don't know why itrubbed me the wrong way. How
(22:38):
should I think about that? Andthose aren't always things that
we address, and maybe we snap atsomebody. Why did I snap at
them? Oh, you know what?
I got up at 3AM because my babywoke me up, and then I had to go
to this meeting at 6AM, and Iwas snapping everybody. And why
was it doing that? Oh, because Iwoke up, like, you know, all
these things. But unless youhave unless you take the time to
be mindful and have thatemotional intelligence and say,
(23:00):
okay. Hold on a minute and say,hey, Susie.
I'm so sorry I snapped at you.You know, I had a rough morning,
and I shouldn't have taken outof you. Can you like, can we,
like, be okay? And those thingsdon't happen enough. And because
in
Lindsay Barnett (23:12):
Yeah.
Adam Larson (23:12):
In so many environments, it's, like, fast
paced or we have to you know,it's it's a high pressure, so
you don't wanna seem like you'revulnerable at all. But I feel
like that degrades what we ashumans can just be our best
selves, I guess.
Lindsay Barnett (23:25):
Yeah. And also, you know, kind of even just
having time for for pause isreally hard. Like, I think about
Yeah. Meetings. So many meetingshave, like, you know, a half
hour meeting with a seven itemagenda.
Like, people don't even havetime to fully process what we're
(23:45):
talking about before we're like,okay, we're done, we're all
agreed, great, moving on to thenext Mhmm. Topic. And I see this
happen a lot with teams,especially cross functional
teams, where they're just sloweddown so much because they move
too fast too soon that they endup kinda having to circle back
(24:05):
on so much. But if we could justincorporate a little bit little
bit of time for pause. That'sall it is.
A little pause. We can bekinder, more thoughtful, more
aware.
Adam Larson (24:17):
It's all good. Yeah. I I remember somebody
challenged me once to, like, to,you know, schedule you know,
don't schedule a thirty minutemeeting. Schedule a twenty five
minute meeting. Don't schedulean hour.
Schedule a fifty minute meeting.Give everybody, like, five
minutes or ten minutes back intotheir day so they can go from
one meeting to the next. And andI remember they were saying,
like, if you do that, this ishow much time you get back in
(24:37):
your week. And I'm like, what?And but I started I set my in
Outlook, I set my default totwenty five and fifty, and I
started doing that.
And I started ending meetingsearlier if I could. And I was
like, wow. I can breathe.Because, you if you start work
at 08:30 or something like thatand you don't have a break until
noon, that's really rough. Andthere's no like, every meeting
went to the exact end.
(24:58):
That can really that can reallyput a huge burden on you and and
get cause a lot of stresssometimes.
Lindsay Barnett (25:03):
Yeah. And it's interesting too what you bring
up. I think a lot of timespeople focus we hyper focus on
time. Mhmm. And I think one ofthe things that I like to
introduce into a lot ofconversations is there's time
and there's energy.
Right? We all have twenty fourhours in a day. But if I'm just,
(25:27):
like, invoicing and doing adminstuff in the course of the day,
eight hours feels like twentyhours. But if I'm in
conversations with people likeyou and, you know, enjoying
myself and taking people onwalking meetings with me and,
you know, doing all this stuff,oh my god. You know, eight hours
(25:50):
feels like two in my body.
Right? Like, if we think ofourselves a little bit like a
battery, how much are wedraining versus how much are we
charging? And so, you know, inaddition to looking at time,
also looking at what are wedoing with our time, and is it
things that are recharging us oror draining us, and how do we
(26:13):
manage around that?
Adam Larson (26:15):
Yeah. I think it's hard too because we especially,
you know, in many corporationsprobably in The US and around
the world, we're we're stuck intime time blocks. Hey. Your your
your time is between this timeand this time. If you're an
hourly worker, you have to clockin at this time and clock out.
And so we we're governed by thetime, and so that that permeates
(26:36):
everything. So what yourexamples you were giving, it,
like, it, like, shakes somebodywho's like, wait. But I have
this meeting, and I have thismeeting. I have to keep this
calendar. Like, I have a I havemy my work calendar, my family
calendar, and my other like, Ihave three different calendars
on my one calendar on my phonejust so I can keep track of
everything.
Yeah. I know. And so how can youstill keep track of everything
(26:57):
but do what you were saying? Andthat's like, I think that's what
the question I was trying to sayget to.
Lindsay Barnett (27:03):
It's hard. I mean, in a lot of ways, like,
we're all struggling with that.
Adam Larson (27:08):
Yeah.
Lindsay Barnett (27:08):
Right? I mean, I have the same thing. Like,
people try to schedule time withme, and I'm like, shoot, I
didn't check that calendar. Youknow, it's hard. You know, I I
will say this, though.
It's possible. Like, I have seenpeople be really ruthless about
it. You know, I have a friendwho's, you know, an executive
(27:29):
and she just, I think, I don'tknow, the the end of the year or
whatnot, she said, that's it. Iam canceling all standing
meetings. I am going to, youknow, only take meetings of the
strategic variety.
She communicated to her team. Ifif know, we previously had
(27:50):
meetings on this and that. Thisperson's taking it, this
person's taking it, and thisperson's taking that. These are
the kinds of things that if youwant a meeting with me that I
would love to hear about. Andshe got so much of her time back
to focus on the things that giveher energy that really matter to
her, and it made a big, youknow, shift in her life, but she
(28:13):
was managing both the time andthe energy.
Right? Yeah. So it you know, howdo you put put the two together?
But sometimes you gotta beruthless.
Adam Larson (28:24):
Yeah. It sounds like you have to be ruthless. It
sounds like you have to kind ofmake some like, you you
mentioned courage earlier in theconversation. You have to kind
of have some courage to say,hey. No.
I can't come to that meeting. Orhey. Can you have tap on so and
so to do that? Or hey. You knowwhat?
I'll get to your I'll get towhat you're asking me to do in
September. But why? Well, thisis why. Being able to have those
(28:45):
tough conversations, and I thinksometimes we're afraid to do
that whether the environment youwork in is it you feel like you
can't say no. And, actually, youcan.
It's just it's it's unfortunatethat your culture is like that.
And then so it's like, how canmaybe we can talk about how
like, what are some steps togetting to that courageous
moment?
Lindsay Barnett (29:04):
Yeah. So there's a couple things. One of
the things that I share in mybook is this model called more
time now.
Adam Larson (29:13):
Yeah.
Lindsay Barnett (29:16):
And so what it is is really looking at what are
the fears that are holding meback from that courage to be
able to negotiate for what Ineed. And so the more in that is
more is better. Right? We weoften have this more is better
(29:37):
thinking, which usually comesfrom a fear of, you know, fear
of inadequacy. Right?
Like, so more is better. And soif we can acknowledge that I
have that fear and find a way toto contradict it, then I won't
(29:58):
have a lot of the behaviors thatare putting me in this place of
over performance and thing, youknow, because sometimes we
again, this is how do we startwith ourselves? What are we
doing to hurt ourselves first?And how do we break clear of
that? The other one is, youknow, time, which is I have no
time, which is usually I find alittle bit a fear of failure.
(30:23):
And so sometimes by looking at,you know, our our standards too
high. Right? Do we create thisbar of perfection or whatnot for
ourselves because of this fearof failure? What would happen if
we dialed that back even just alittle bit? And then the last
one is, you know, now.
(30:44):
And so this is all about, youknow, people coming to us. Okay.
You need it now. Right? Thecycle of of hyper
responsiveness, which usuallycomes from a fear of rejection.
And so if we can open up and,you know, turn the mirror inward
and say, okay, what are thefears that might be driving some
(31:06):
of my behavior? That can open usup to say, okay, what can I do
for myself? And what do Iactually have to negotiate?
Because and what am I afraid tonegotiate on? And, you know, the
the the more is better.
Sometimes you can negotiate withothers. Right? Do you when
(31:29):
you're thinking of what goodlooks like, are you thinking,
you know, 20 page deck or areyou thinking like a one page
memo? Right? Because it and Isee this happen a lot actually
with when I've talked toexecutives where sometimes they
make what they think is a simplerequest.
Sometimes they don't know what arequest entails, but sometimes
(31:52):
they don't actually clarify whatthe conditions of success are,
and then they get back like a 50page deck that someone worked
all night on and they're like, Ijust wanted to know this one
thing. So sometimes we have tojust ask what, you know, what
does success look like? What isoutcome? And that may not be
(32:13):
take need to take a lot ofcourage, but I also acknowledge
the fact that if an executivejust sends you a ping on the way
to a meeting, you may not beable to get more time with them.
But Yeah.
You know, how do you start tofigure out some of those things
that either you're doing toyourself, or what are the
(32:35):
questions that I can ask toeither get more information or
to figure it out?
Adam Larson (32:40):
I think that's, you know, that's everything you're
saying, I feel like we all cantake little bits of it and apply
it in what works best for usbecause, you know, like, as
you're saying stuff, I'm like,maybe I should try this. Maybe
it's like, I I'm getting ideasas you're talking
Lindsay Barnett (32:54):
because I
Adam Larson (32:55):
feel like there's constantly times where you can
feel overwhelmed, and it couldlead to burnout. It could lead
to missing things. It could leadto making mistakes, and you have
to find that time to take timeback for you. And I think that's
a lot of what you're saying isis like, hey. Remember you.
Remember you. You're you'reimportant because if you keep
doing this to yourself, you'regonna take yourself out of the
(33:17):
equation, which is gonna beworse. So how about you take
time for you? And I and that's ait's a huge reminder for for for
accounting professionals, for HRprofessor, for anybody in any in
any industry because we all arefeeling the feeling the
pressure. We're feeling thepressure of the turmoil of
everything that's going onaround us, and we can't forget
about that we're humans and thatwe need time.
Lindsay Barnett (33:39):
Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's really hard. I
know, I mean, even though I'msharing, like, well, could try
that or you could try that.
Like, you know, the idea for meis how do we expand the aperture
so we can see a few moreoptions? Doesn't mean they're
gonna be easy. I try to shareeasy stuff so that it feels
(34:03):
easy. Right? Like, you know, oneof the examples that I share in
my book is a story of a friendwho, you know, she wanted to get
healthier.
She just bought a bigger waterbottle. That's it.
Adam Larson (34:15):
Wow.
Lindsay Barnett (34:16):
And she lost weight. Her skin was glowing.
She felt better. Right? Sowhat's your water bottle?
Right? Like, how do you find theeasiest thing? Because action is
what really starts to release usfrom that stuckness. And so just
the the littlest things,whatever feels easy, just do it
(34:38):
because it always will feelhard. And so how do we make it
as easy as possible forourselves?
Adam Larson (34:44):
Lindsey, I think we should stop there. I think
that's a perfect way to end it.That's a perfect sound bite.
Lindsay Barnett (34:48):
Find your water bottle.
Adam Larson (34:50):
Get your find your water bottle and run with it. I
just wanna thank you so much forthis conversation, for coming
on, for sharing your knowledge.I encourage everybody to check
out Lindsay's book. The linkwill be in the, show notes. And,
thanks so much for coming on.
Lindsay Barnett (35:02):
Thank you, Adam. Really appreciate you
having me here, and good luck infinding your work life harmony.
Announcer (35:11):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Count Me In. I'm
Adam Larson, your host. Andtoday, I'm joined by Lindsey
Barnett, executive coach andbestselling author of working
hell to working well. Lindsayshares her story of moving from
a world of corporate HR todesigning a life with more
balance and purpose.
In this episode, we findpractical ways to tackle burnout
and find true work life harmony.Lindsay offers actionable tips
(00:27):
on mindfulness, job crafting,and communicating your needs
whether you're in a demandingjob or on your own path. If
you're feeling stressed orlooking for realistic changes,
Lindsay's advice will help youget started. Stick around and
discover how small steps canlead to healthier, more
fulfilling work life. Well,Lindsey, thank you so much for
(00:50):
being on the podcast.
I'm excited to talk with youabout workplace and burnout and
a bunch of other thingstogether. I wanted to take a
step back and get to know aboutyour story a little bit because
you took the leap from a fullcorporate HR role to rethinking
your relationship with work, youdid kind of part time stuff. And
so I wonder if you could tell alittle Yeah. Bit about your
Lindsay Barnett (01:10):
Yeah. I mean, I think for me, one of the common
threads in my life when Ireflect back on, you know,
twenty years and generally thecorporate world is I was always
really seeking some form offlexibility. Right? So when my
is I was looking for flexibilityto be able to travel and all my
(01:30):
hobbies and hang out with myfriends and things like that.
And, you know, as I had a familyand have other responsibilities,
I had to really look and figureout, okay, how do I how do I
make this work?
And so when I had companies thatoffered flexible work
arrangements, which now seemlike maybe they have gone to the
(01:52):
wayside, I always took advantageof those. So one of the ones
that you referenced that I tookadvantage of right around, you
know, kind of in the first yearof the pandemic, it was a great
resignation. Companies werethrowing, you know, all sorts of
things at people, and one of theoptions was part time. And so I
(02:16):
pitched working part time to mymanager or boss at the time.
Thankfully, he and I had workedtogether for a while, had a lot
of trust built up, and so I gotapproved to shift to part time
hour.
And it really opened my eyes tothe ways that I had been working
(02:38):
in in the past. And so, youknow, from there, I
unfortunately, the downside topart time is it likely makes it
easier for you to get laid off.Mhmm. So I ended up on the
layoff list, but I ended uppivoting into doing my own
thing, which has been great. AndI have a lot of the flexibility
(03:01):
that I've been seeking.
So it's been great. You don'thave to work for yourself to
have, but, you know, I've I madeit work in in corporations for
many, many years, which is partof what I tried to put into my
book. So
Adam Larson (03:16):
yeah. Yeah. So talk a little bit more about that.
Like, how did working part timekinda help you better understand
your needs and kinda discoverwhat you, you know, what you
needed to make?
Lindsay Barnett (03:24):
I think a lot of it for me really became about
having a nervous system reset.Right? When you're working full
time and you're going frommeetings to meetings to
meetings, and then when all themeetings are done, and then
you're working into the nightand and whatnot, you almost lose
sight of what normal is anymore.And so I think because I shifted
(03:52):
to part time, you know, in a lotof ways, the job didn't fully
exist. Right?
We took a lot of strategicprojects that somebody had to
lead and put it together. So thecombination of the workload
really being well contracted tobe done in a part time schedule
(04:13):
as well as me just having timeand space for being in the rest
of my life really allowed me tosee that work is just part of my
life.
Adam Larson (04:26):
Mhmm.
Lindsay Barnett (04:27):
And I can, you know, really feel into when I am
my best self. Mhmm. And I thinkbeing in that best self place
made me more productive in mypart time role. In a lot of
ways, I feel like I was gettingas much, if not more work done
than I was in my full timeschedule. And I just could feel
(04:48):
into, hey.
Like, this is what it's like tonot be stressed all the time,
frankly.
Adam Larson (04:57):
So that sounds really nice. And I think all of
us would be like, yeah. Can I dothat too? But then reality sits
in, and a lot of us maybe can'tdo part time because of
financial reasons or forwhatever reasons. And, you know,
burnout is a real real thing.
Like, it's really happening fora lot of people. A lot of
organizations are tighteningtheir belt. So if you're not on
the chopping block and getting,oh, you're still there trying to
(05:20):
make everything still work. So,you know, what are some maybe
maybe we could talk about, like,what are some practices that
you've seen can make a realdifference in organizations and
trying to address that burnout?
Lindsay Barnett (05:31):
Yeah. So I think a couple things. Well, I
was able to have the part timeexperience because I'm an
executive coach. What I found isthat a lot of my coaching
clients worked full time hours.They they weren't on a part time
schedule, but a lot of thepractices that either we worked
on or they already had in placereally supported them in having
(05:56):
a better work life harmony.
A lot of it for me comes down tojust mindfulness and how do we
work more more mindfully. So howdo I start to notice that I'm
fidgeting in my chair and mybody is telling me, you need to
take a break. Doesn't matterwhat it is, but you need to take
(06:19):
a break.
Adam Larson (06:19):
Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsay Barnett (06:21):
How how can I, you know, be in tune with my
emotions? Right? Where, okay.I'm working on this project, and
I'm feeling super, superstressed out. Do I need to do to
calm myself?
Do I just need to take somebreaths? Do I need to connect
(06:43):
with a colleague and, you know,just thought partner with them
for a little bit? So a lot of itis figuring out what are the
strategies that are gonna workfor you when you notice that
you're in that place ofoverwhelm or burnout. And I've
had a lot of times before goingto part time. I battled burnout
(07:05):
on a couple occasions whilestill trying to figure out how
to do this in the full timespace.
You know, some of it is takingis having courage to be able to
communicate solutions that willwork for you, and hopefully,
they're win win solutions.Right? You're not walking into
your boss's office with, youknow, these are my list of
(07:25):
demands. Right? Usually, it'sthe little things.
Right? Like, hey. You know, I'vejust absorbed Johnny's work. And
while that's great and I'mexcited about the possibility of
x y z, I wanna look at some ofthis work that is currently on
my plate. Maybe this reportdoesn't need to go out every
(07:49):
week.
Can we ship that to every otherweek? You know, I was thinking
this work that I'm doing, youknow, Susan might be ready for a
new project herself. Right? Shewasn't impacted by the recent
round of layoffs as so manypeople were and are, you know,
and I can tell from myconversations with her, she's
(08:09):
really wanting to grow. Thiswould be developmental for her,
and it would take it off of myplate so I can focus on the new
work or the more strategic work.
So a lot of it is, you know,some of the mindfulness really
looking at ways to what I theterm I like is job craft. Okay.
You know, how do I look at whatI'm doing, what the people are
(08:31):
doing around me, and start to tosee what shifts can be made. But
it it it is work in and ofitself to do that, and you do
need time and space, eithercarved out or otherwise.
Adam Larson (08:47):
Well, it it's funny because when we get so busy,
sometimes the first thing to gois the taking the time to think,
taking the time to betterourselves. Because if we're
doing those things, we becomebetter employees, we can get our
work done better. But if we'reso busy that we have to remove
that, that's I feel like that'swhere the beginning of burnout
starts.
Lindsay Barnett (09:04):
Yeah. It's it's really hard. You have to be
really intentional aboutcreating that time and space
because you're always gonna feellike that it can't exist. And
so, you know, I remember talkingwith one of my coaching clients
who, you know, I think wasfeeling a little bit stuck in
her role. And I asked her about,well, are you networking to, you
(09:28):
know, try to find your your nextopportunity?
And her answer, of course, was,oh, I just I don't have time.
And I said, let's just do anexperiment. Just put thirty
minutes on your calendar,whatever day of the week is the
lightest day, let's say Friday.Just put thirty minutes on your
calendar and try to protect thattime. See what happens with the
rest of your week.
(09:48):
And then when she reported back,she was like, okay. Yeah. I had
I was able to find the time, andI set up a bunch of networking
calls, and now they're on mycalendar, and now we're good.
Right?
Adam Larson (09:58):
Mhmm.
Lindsay Barnett (09:58):
Sometimes it's a little bit of really getting
clear on what are my intentions.You don't have to pick something
really big. It could be pickingsomething small to do. Like, I'm
gonna do a one minute rest inbetween calls of just sitting in
my chair and getting in touchwith my body. That could be
enough.
(10:19):
Whatever it is, it's justfinding that one thing and
committing to it. You'll startto see more and more open up as
you pick the next thing and thenext thing, in my experience at
least.
Adam Larson (10:30):
It's fun. The analogy that kinda came to mind
as you were talking is, like,you don't always need to use an
axe when a scalpel or a smalllittle, like, butter knife will
do. Like, you'd always use youraxe in your in your work time
and your schedules. Just alittle butter knife, like, the
thirty minutes, like you weresaying. Yeah.
It's like that's like a it'sit's something to keep in mind
because you can't always youcan't tackle everything right
(10:51):
away. You have to do smallthings.
Lindsay Barnett (10:53):
Yeah. Like, I'm a huge believer in plan d. Like
like, plan a is dreamy. Right?And sometimes we get stuck in
this black and white thinkingof, you know, and I see this a
lot with people, particularlywith taking care of themselves,
like exercise.
Adam Larson (11:11):
Yeah.
Lindsay Barnett (11:11):
You know, the gym doesn't call you up and say,
hey, it's time to go to the gym,but your boss is emailing you
all the time. So, you know,there's you. You've got to
figure out how to own that foryourself as well as negotiate
with others. So they know whatyour needs are and what you're
trying to do. But, you know,plan d, there are days like I am
(11:32):
committed personally to doingsome meditation and some yoga
every day.
Some days I have a lot of time.Great. I can do, you know, my my
goal time period. Sometimes it'stake a breath, do a downward
dog, and we're on with our day.Right?
But that's my plan D, but Ialways know that I have a plan D
(11:55):
that is still self honoring, andI'm gonna do whatever that looks
like. But most days, it's plan Band C.
Adam Larson (12:03):
No. I I can't help but think of your title, you
know, to your book, Working Hellto Working Well. And it's
interesting because a lot ofstuff we've been talking about
are the steps you need to taketo get from hell to well, I
guess, that that bridge thatgap. And maybe we can start by
just kinda talking a little bit.Like, how do you bridge that
gap?
Because sometimes when you feellike work is hell, it it takes a
(12:25):
a long and it's not an easyprocess to get to
Lindsay Barnett (12:28):
go. And
Adam Larson (12:29):
so maybe we can start by, like, what how do you
start? How do you where do youstart?
Lindsay Barnett (12:32):
So I think there's a couple things to just
call out because for me, I thinkone of my big ahas as I was
writing the book is there's alittle bit of a stalemate that's
happening right now inorganizations. And I think
organizations are saying, hey,it's you. You gotta you gotta
(12:52):
take care of yourself. We justgive you the work and pay the
big bucks. Right?
And then individuals are saying,hey, you're giving me too much
work. I can't I can't take careof myself. Right? But we're
doing this and then we're notgetting anywhere. And so I think
there are a couple things thatfor me really stand out, which
is how do we take a kind of dualaccountability role in all of
(13:20):
this, which is what are thethings that I own that I can do?
And PS, if I can role model thisfor others, it starts to create
a safer space for others to takecare of themselves as well. And
the more of us that are startingto do this, the more we can
(13:43):
shape shift the culture, themore of us there are as allies
to go to the organization, to goto our manager or boss and say,
hey, this is what's working forus.
Adam Larson (13:55):
Mhmm.
Lindsay Barnett (13:56):
So there's a little bit of, I think
everyone's kind of waiting eachother out. And I think what I'm
trying to advocate for is justdo whatever you can. Like, go be
the change. We can't wait fororganizations to change. That's
like asking, you know, Titanicto, like, course, you know,
like, we've gotta do a littlebit at a time together, but role
(14:20):
modeling and making it safe forus all to to start taking
advantage of our well-being cancan help.
But starting with you, butfiguring out what are the things
that, you know, that I can do.And then if you're in a manager
or leadership role, what are thethings that you can do? If
(14:43):
you're in a, you know, an HR ororganizational leader role, what
are the things you can do? Weget I find we sometimes fall so
victim to black and whitethinking of, like, it's all or
nothing that we just don't doanything, and that doesn't serve
us.
Adam Larson (14:57):
Mhmm. Yeah. Processing.
Lindsay Barnett (15:00):
What are you processing there?
Adam Larson (15:01):
You really got me processing because it's one of
those things where that stuffsounds really nice. But what's
like, how about practicalapplication? Because sometimes
when you when these thingshappen, when burnout happens and
organizations are trying to helptheir employees, a lot of times,
what you run into ispresentations with a lot of
corporate jargon and the nicethings from the self help books,
(15:24):
but it's not a lot of, hey, thisis a practical things you can do
to help. And so how do you getfrom, like, this, hey, this
sounds really nice on paper tothese are things I'm actually
doing?
Lindsay Barnett (15:34):
So I think there there are a lot of
different things you can do. Ithink the the key thing that I
would say, though, is there isno silver bullet. So what works
for you may not work for me.There are some general things
that we know help with burnout.So for example, there was a
recent study done by the Societyof Human Resources Management
(15:57):
that said people who experiencea sense of belonging are two and
a half times less likely toexperience burnout.
So if we know some of the, youknow, and there's a ton of
science around burnout andthings like that. But some of it
is figuring out what is it thatis going to work for you. You
(16:18):
know, I'll share an example fromone of my clients. One of my
clients wanted she she's anamazing manager, wanted to be,
you know, always available foranyone who needed her, but she
was doing it at the sacrifice ofher own well-being. Mhmm.
(16:39):
And so one of the things that weworked on was just carving out
thirty minutes for lunch. Whatyou know, and we we literally
had to talk through what's thesmallest increment that you can
feel comfortable managing thethe kind of polarities here of I
I I need to be available and Ialso need to be in my best self.
(17:05):
What's that smallest incrementof what you can do that can
allow you to be okay with both.And so we got to a place of,
well, no one's really gonna missme for thirty minutes. Right?
So she ended up carving outlunch and I was like, amazing.
You're role modeling for yourteam. It's okay to take care of
(17:28):
yourself. You are taking care ofyourself and bonus points, her
husband joined her for lunch. Soshe was building connection with
her husband, taking care ofherself, nourishing herself, and
then she would go back into herday.
So now I give that example. Somepeople listening may be like, I
can't even afford thirty minutesfor lunch. What whatever it is,
(17:51):
it's it's really starting tonotice. Even if you just take a
week, do a time audit, how am Ispending my time? How how do I
wanna be spending my time?
Where are there little thingsthat I can incorporate into my
day? I'll give you one otherexample. I had one client who
(18:13):
was and and she was workingglobal hours. So she really was,
you know, burning the candle atboth ends. And so we just talked
about, well, what are yourcurrent habits?
Like, what do you do now that'seven modestly taking care of
yourself? And she said, well, I,you know, I usually grab tea in
(18:34):
between meetings. I said, great.Let's put a sticky note on your
tea canister that says breathe.So while you're waiting for your
tea to steep, you're bringing inan element of mindfulness.
You're allowing your nervoussystem to regulate a little bit
more. And so we just tried that.Right? So they're just little
(18:59):
things that even though theysound like, how is that gonna
make an impact? You do thatlittle thing, and then you do
the next little thing, and itstarts to build over time.
But you have to have thatintention and that commitment,
which is hard. This is where,you know, working with a coach
is helpful. Right? Like, lot ofmy clients had me in the back of
(19:20):
their head saying, don't forgetto breathe, which sometimes is
the accountability, that that weneed. So understanding how does
how does accountability work foryou can also help.
Adam Larson (19:33):
Yeah. Like, you have a coach? Do you have a
mentor that you can connectwith? A coach, a boss, a
colleague, somebody who you whoyou work in the office with?
Find that person that works foryou because not not everybody
may have access to a executivecoach.
Not everybody may have access toa mentor, but find that person
that works best for you. And itit and it it reminded me again
of another, like, analogy ofthat snowball effect where you
start with a little snowball atthe top of a hill. As it keeps
(19:55):
rolling down, if it's theperfect elements, though that'll
keep growing and growing. And sowe have to do little things to
make big changes, which justsounds weird to say.
Lindsay Barnett (20:06):
I know, but I I don't know. I'm a big believer
in the little things.
Adam Larson (20:09):
Yeah. And you've mentioned mindfulness a couple
times, and I was wondering ifyou could we could maybe take a
step back a little bit and maybeyou could define what you mean
by mindfulness in this case andthat we can help people
understand what we're talkingabout.
Lindsay Barnett (20:22):
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not a mindfulness expert.
Adam Larson (20:26):
Okay.
Lindsay Barnett (20:27):
But I am trained as an integral coach.
And so as an integral coach,what that means is trying to
integrate and help peopleintegrate between the three
intelligence centers. So mindIQ, heart EQ, and body BQ.
Right? So there there are allthese intelligence centers.
(20:49):
And so a lot of us walk aroundas a brain on a body. Right?
Like, we don't really have a lotof connectivity with our
emotions. You know, many peopleonly know kind of happy, sad,
mad. Like, that's the extent ofour emotional, you know,
intelligence around, like, howto name our emotions or our
(21:12):
body.
Right? If you're sitting infront of a computer for eighteen
hours a day, you may begenerally disconnected from your
body. So a lot of what, youknow, I was trained in and what
I try to support clients in isbeing able to access some of
those different centers ofintelligence so that you can
(21:36):
really have a choice in howyou're going to respond to
things. Because if we're notbeing mindful, I think the
shortest answer is when you'remindful, you are not just
reacting, you're responding.You're taking that one second
pause to say Yeah.
What do I want in this nextmoment? I like that.
Adam Larson (21:57):
Yeah. No. That does help because it's one of those
things where you hear that worda lot and, you know, at its base
thing, you're being mindful.You're thinking about something
else. Right?
You're thinking not just ofwhat's right here. That's, like,
at its base level. But Iappreciated that kind of
overarching overview becausewhen it comes to being humans
and working in a corporate in,like, a corporate environment,
(22:17):
any type of businessenvironment, I think sometimes
the lines between employee andhuman kind of blur, and we focus
on, I just have to be theemployee and do the best that I
am. We forget that I'm a human,and I have to remember about how
I'm feeling. And sometimes, hey.
That person said that to me,that really rubbed me the wrong
way, but I don't know why itrubbed me the wrong way. How
(22:38):
should I think about that? Andthose aren't always things that
we address, and maybe we snap atsomebody. Why did I snap at
them? Oh, you know what?
I got up at 3AM because my babywoke me up, and then I had to go
to this meeting at 6AM, and Iwas snapping everybody. And why
was it doing that? Oh, because Iwoke up, like, you know, all
these things. But unless youhave unless you take the time to
be mindful and have thatemotional intelligence and say,
(23:00):
okay. Hold on a minute and say,hey, Susie.
I'm so sorry I snapped at you.You know, I had a rough morning,
and I shouldn't have taken outof you. Can you like, can we,
like, be okay? And those thingsdon't happen enough. And because
in
Lindsay Barnett (23:12):
Yeah.
Adam Larson (23:12):
In so many environments, it's, like, fast
paced or we have to you know,it's it's a high pressure, so
you don't wanna seem like you'revulnerable at all. But I feel
like that degrades what we ashumans can just be our best
selves, I guess.
Lindsay Barnett (23:25):
Yeah. And also, you know, kind of even just
having time for for pause isreally hard. Like, I think about
Yeah. Meetings. So many meetingshave, like, you know, a half
hour meeting with a seven itemagenda.
Like, people don't even havetime to fully process what we're
(23:45):
talking about before we're like,okay, we're done, we're all
agreed, great, moving on to thenext Mhmm. Topic. And I see this
happen a lot with teams,especially cross functional
teams, where they're just sloweddown so much because they move
too fast too soon that they endup kinda having to circle back
(24:05):
on so much. But if we could justincorporate a little bit little
bit of time for pause. That'sall it is.
A little pause. We can bekinder, more thoughtful, more
aware.
Adam Larson (24:17):
It's all good. Yeah. I I remember somebody
challenged me once to, like, to,you know, schedule you know,
don't schedule a thirty minutemeeting. Schedule a twenty five
minute meeting. Don't schedulean hour.
Schedule a fifty minute meeting.Give everybody, like, five
minutes or ten minutes back intotheir day so they can go from
one meeting to the next. And andI remember they were saying,
like, if you do that, this ishow much time you get back in
(24:37):
your week. And I'm like, what?And but I started I set my in
Outlook, I set my default totwenty five and fifty, and I
started doing that.
And I started ending meetingsearlier if I could. And I was
like, wow. I can breathe.Because, you if you start work
at 08:30 or something like thatand you don't have a break until
noon, that's really rough. Andthere's no like, every meeting
went to the exact end.
(24:58):
That can really that can reallyput a huge burden on you and and
get cause a lot of stresssometimes.
Lindsay Barnett (25:03):
Yeah. And it's interesting too what you bring
up. I think a lot of timespeople focus we hyper focus on
time. Mhmm. And I think one ofthe things that I like to
introduce into a lot ofconversations is there's time
and there's energy.
Right? We all have twenty fourhours in a day. But if I'm just,
(25:27):
like, invoicing and doing adminstuff in the course of the day,
eight hours feels like twentyhours. But if I'm in
conversations with people likeyou and, you know, enjoying
myself and taking people onwalking meetings with me and,
you know, doing all this stuff,oh my god. You know, eight hours
(25:50):
feels like two in my body.
Right? Like, if we think ofourselves a little bit like a
battery, how much are wedraining versus how much are we
charging? And so, you know, inaddition to looking at time,
also looking at what are wedoing with our time, and is it
things that are recharging us oror draining us, and how do we
(26:13):
manage around that?
Adam Larson (26:15):
Yeah. I think it's hard too because we especially,
you know, in many corporationsprobably in The US and around
the world, we're we're stuck intime time blocks. Hey. Your your
your time is between this timeand this time. If you're an
hourly worker, you have to clockin at this time and clock out.
And so we we're governed by thetime, and so that that permeates
(26:36):
everything. So what yourexamples you were giving, it,
like, it, like, shakes somebodywho's like, wait. But I have
this meeting, and I have thismeeting. I have to keep this
calendar. Like, I have a I havemy my work calendar, my family
calendar, and my other like, Ihave three different calendars
on my one calendar on my phonejust so I can keep track of
everything.
Yeah. I know. And so how can youstill keep track of everything
(26:57):
but do what you were saying? Andthat's like, I think that's what
the question I was trying to sayget to.
Lindsay Barnett (27:03):
It's hard. I mean, in a lot of ways, like,
we're all struggling with that.
Adam Larson (27:08):
Yeah.
Lindsay Barnett (27:08):
Right? I mean, I have the same thing. Like,
people try to schedule time withme, and I'm like, shoot, I
didn't check that calendar. Youknow, it's hard. You know, I I
will say this, though.
It's possible. Like, I have seenpeople be really ruthless about
it. You know, I have a friendwho's, you know, an executive
(27:29):
and she just, I think, I don'tknow, the the end of the year or
whatnot, she said, that's it. Iam canceling all standing
meetings. I am going to, youknow, only take meetings of the
strategic variety.
She communicated to her team. Ifif know, we previously had
(27:50):
meetings on this and that. Thisperson's taking it, this
person's taking it, and thisperson's taking that. These are
the kinds of things that if youwant a meeting with me that I
would love to hear about. Andshe got so much of her time back
to focus on the things that giveher energy that really matter to
her, and it made a big, youknow, shift in her life, but she
(28:13):
was managing both the time andthe energy.
Right? Yeah. So it you know, howdo you put put the two together?
But sometimes you gotta beruthless.
Adam Larson (28:24):
Yeah. It sounds like you have to be ruthless. It
sounds like you have to kind ofmake some like, you you
mentioned courage earlier in theconversation. You have to kind
of have some courage to say,hey. No.
I can't come to that meeting. Orhey. Can you have tap on so and
so to do that? Or hey. You knowwhat?
I'll get to your I'll get towhat you're asking me to do in
September. But why? Well, thisis why. Being able to have those
(28:45):
tough conversations, and I thinksometimes we're afraid to do
that whether the environment youwork in is it you feel like you
can't say no. And, actually, youcan.
It's just it's it's unfortunatethat your culture is like that.
And then so it's like, how canmaybe we can talk about how
like, what are some steps togetting to that courageous
moment?
Lindsay Barnett (29:04):
Yeah. So there's a couple things. One of
the things that I share in mybook is this model called more
time now.
Adam Larson (29:13):
Yeah.
Lindsay Barnett (29:16):
And so what it is is really looking at what are
the fears that are holding meback from that courage to be
able to negotiate for what Ineed. And so the more in that is
more is better. Right? We weoften have this more is better
(29:37):
thinking, which usually comesfrom a fear of, you know, fear
of inadequacy. Right?
Like, so more is better. And soif we can acknowledge that I
have that fear and find a way toto contradict it, then I won't
(29:58):
have a lot of the behaviors thatare putting me in this place of
over performance and thing, youknow, because sometimes we
again, this is how do we startwith ourselves? What are we
doing to hurt ourselves first?And how do we break clear of
that? The other one is, youknow, time, which is I have no
time, which is usually I find alittle bit a fear of failure.
(30:23):
And so sometimes by looking at,you know, our our standards too
high. Right? Do we create thisbar of perfection or whatnot for
ourselves because of this fearof failure? What would happen if
we dialed that back even just alittle bit? And then the last
one is, you know, now.
(30:44):
And so this is all about, youknow, people coming to us. Okay.
You need it now. Right? Thecycle of of hyper
responsiveness, which usuallycomes from a fear of rejection.
And so if we can open up and,you know, turn the mirror inward
and say, okay, what are thefears that might be driving some
(31:06):
of my behavior? That can open usup to say, okay, what can I do
for myself? And what do Iactually have to negotiate?
Because and what am I afraid tonegotiate on? And, you know, the
the the more is better.
Sometimes you can negotiate withothers. Right? Do you when
(31:29):
you're thinking of what goodlooks like, are you thinking,
you know, 20 page deck or areyou thinking like a one page
memo? Right? Because it and Isee this happen a lot actually
with when I've talked toexecutives where sometimes they
make what they think is a simplerequest.
Sometimes they don't know what arequest entails, but sometimes
(31:52):
they don't actually clarify whatthe conditions of success are,
and then they get back like a 50page deck that someone worked
all night on and they're like, Ijust wanted to know this one
thing. So sometimes we have tojust ask what, you know, what
does success look like? What isoutcome? And that may not be
(32:13):
take need to take a lot ofcourage, but I also acknowledge
the fact that if an executivejust sends you a ping on the way
to a meeting, you may not beable to get more time with them.
But Yeah.
You know, how do you start tofigure out some of those things
that either you're doing toyourself, or what are the
(32:35):
questions that I can ask toeither get more information or
to figure it out?
Adam Larson (32:40):
I think that's, you know, that's everything you're
saying, I feel like we all cantake little bits of it and apply
it in what works best for usbecause, you know, like, as
you're saying stuff, I'm like,maybe I should try this. Maybe
it's like, I I'm getting ideasas you're talking
Lindsay Barnett (32:54):
because I
Adam Larson (32:55):
feel like there's constantly times where you can
feel overwhelmed, and it couldlead to burnout. It could lead
to missing things. It could leadto making mistakes, and you have
to find that time to take timeback for you. And I think that's
a lot of what you're saying isis like, hey. Remember you.
Remember you. You're you'reimportant because if you keep
doing this to yourself, you'regonna take yourself out of the
(33:17):
equation, which is gonna beworse. So how about you take
time for you? And I and that's ait's a huge reminder for for for
accounting professionals, for HRprofessor, for anybody in any in
any industry because we all arefeeling the feeling the
pressure. We're feeling thepressure of the turmoil of
everything that's going onaround us, and we can't forget
about that we're humans and thatwe need time.
Lindsay Barnett (33:39):
Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It's really hard. I
know, I mean, even though I'msharing, like, well, could try
that or you could try that.
Like, you know, the idea for meis how do we expand the aperture
so we can see a few moreoptions? Doesn't mean they're
gonna be easy. I try to shareeasy stuff so that it feels
(34:03):
easy. Right? Like, you know, oneof the examples that I share in
my book is a story of a friendwho, you know, she wanted to get
healthier.
She just bought a bigger waterbottle. That's it.
Adam Larson (34:15):
Wow.
Lindsay Barnett (34:16):
And she lost weight. Her skin was glowing.
She felt better. Right? Sowhat's your water bottle?
Right? Like, how do you find theeasiest thing? Because action is
what really starts to release usfrom that stuckness. And so just
the the littlest things,whatever feels easy, just do it
(34:38):
because it always will feelhard. And so how do we make it
as easy as possible forourselves?
Adam Larson (34:44):
Lindsey, I think we should stop there. I think
that's a perfect way to end it.That's a perfect sound bite.
Lindsay Barnett (34:48):
Find your water bottle.
Adam Larson (34:50):
Get your find your water bottle and run with it. I
just wanna thank you so much forthis conversation, for coming
on, for sharing your knowledge.I encourage everybody to check
out Lindsay's book. The linkwill be in the, show notes. And,
thanks so much for coming on.
Lindsay Barnett (35:02):
Thank you, Adam. Really appreciate you
having me here, and good luck infinding your work life harmony.
Announcer (35:11):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
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