December 8, 2025 • 34 mins
Kick back with the Count Me In Podcast as Adam Larson chats with Carol Sargent, Associate Professor of Accounting at Mercer University, about her journey as both mentor and mentee in academia and industry. Carol shares candid stories, practical advice, and a few humorous moments from her decades of mentoring professionals and students. From building trust in mentor-mentee relationships to handling ethical dilemmas in high-pressure environments, Carol offers real-world wisdom and actionable tips. Whether you’re just starting your career or looking to pay it forward, you’ll find inspiration in Carol’s down-to-earth approach to growing both professionally and personally. Don’t miss this engaging conversation on emotional intelligence, self-awareness, and the power of genuine connection.
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Episode Transcript
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Adam Larson (00:05):
Welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson.
In today's episode, I'm joinedby Carol Sargent, associate
professor of accounting atMercer University and a seasoned
mentor with a wealth ofexperience in both industry and
academia. Together, we dive intothe ins and outs of mentoring,
exploring how roles of a mentorand mentee differ depending on
your environment and what itreally takes to build
(00:26):
meaningful, effective mentoringrelationships. Carol shares
practical advice on seeking outmentors, building trust, and
navigating through thoseprofessional moments like
ethical dilemmas where a goodmentor makes all the difference.
Whether you're just starting outor looking to pay it forward as
a mentor yourself, this episodeoffers wisdom on developing
emotional intelligence, becominga better leader, supporting
(00:46):
those around you. Tune in for athought provoking and motivating
conversation that might justinspire you to take your own
mentoring journey to the nextlevel. Well, Carol, I just wanna
welcome you to the Count Me Inpodcast. I'm excited today to be
talking with you about being amentor and being a mentee. And I
(01:08):
figured we could start ourconversation by how does how
does the experience of being amentor or mentee differ between
industry and academia?
Because you've done it in bothplaces. You've done it when
you're in industry, you've doneit when you're in academia. And
maybe there are there somelessons we can learn just to
kinda get our feet wet here?
Carol Sargent (01:24):
Right. So there are differences, pretty big
differences, and that's usuallythe time frame. In industry, you
might be working with somebodyfor years. They might have
connected with you as a new hireor even during the recruiting
process. And so you're with themas they progress through the
organization, or maybe theyleave the organization.
Now they're in a differentorganization, but they kept up
with you. In academia, you mayonly have them for a semester or
(01:48):
maybe two semesters or at mostfor two or three years, and then
they leave. So you have lesstime to percolate. Students
sometimes keep up with youafterwards, and you can mentor
after graduation, but that'sless likely than across a more
professional career. Myprofessional colleagues will
keep up with me even after theywent to other organizations, but
(02:10):
students feel less likely to dothat.
I don't I'm not sure why.
Adam Larson (02:13):
Yeah. It's interest you're right. Is a completely
different environments. And sowhen you're when you're a mentor
in college, you're like, I'mexcited about doing things, and
you're trying to move in yourcareer. You're trying to learn
things quickly.
And in a career, it's adifferent and why do you think a
lot of people are resistant togetting mentors, especially when
you're a professional?
Carol Sargent (02:31):
I don't know that people are resistant to getting
mentors. I think they might bewhere you and I were just
talking and that it takes alittle bit of energy to find
one. Yeah. And the gold standardis to have an internal mentee in
your organization, but also anexternal one that's independent
of organization. You have to beeither very lucky or intentional
or maybe both to have that idea.
Adam Larson (02:55):
For sure. So when let's start with the from the
perspective of a of a mentee.What do you think what are
qualities you should look for ina in a mentor? Let's say you're
a young professional. You justcame out of college.
You're you just got your CMA orworking towards your CMA. And
and what are what are somequalities that you think, hey.
This is an impactful mentor. AndI know each person is different,
(03:16):
but, you know, what are therecertain qualities that we should
all be looking for?
Carol Sargent (03:20):
So one who's open to it. Right? One who's willing
to to give you a little bit oftime, and that's on the mentee
to be interesting. Right? To askone or two interesting questions
that'll catch the attention of amentor.
And so then they'll begin aconversation and say, hey. Are
you open to following up on thismaybe for coffee, or maybe I'll
stop by after work, and we cango for a walk and go into that
(03:43):
topic. So if a mentee comes inwith a question or two to sort
of prompt, I'm curious aboutthis thing, and maybe we talk
for a few minutes. Are you opento following up? And then you
you know, that's how you canmaybe get one launched.
Mhmm. I mean, it does take alittle bit of luck and a little
bit of connection because youhave to build up that trust. You
have to build up that mutualdesire to connect and to pay it
(04:08):
forward or to, make theinvestment. So there has to be
some chemistry.
Adam Larson (04:15):
Yeah. It's almost like a mentor mentee
relationship is like a is like ait's almost it's very similar
to, like, romantic relationship.If there's no chemistry, how can
you grow and move forward in inromance? Sometimes that's what
people say as they're lookingfor chemistry.
Carol Sargent (04:31):
I shared that it's chemistry in that context,
maybe in terms of shared valuesor shared interests or shared
understanding of how it would bebetter if I took my difficult
topics to somebody who's maybedone other difficult topics.
Adam Larson (04:47):
Yeah.
Carol Sargent (04:47):
So it's it's there's a respect kind of
chemistry that I respect you forwanting to know to bring in your
problems, and I respect you totake my problems seriously and
give me multiple viewpointswithout bossing me around,
without judging me. So noteverybody can do that.
Adam Larson (05:05):
Yeah. Not everybody can. If you're a mentee and you
wanna you wanna make sure thatyour time is effective, are
there certain things orpractices that you should be
looking to do? Like, hey. Iwanna make sure I'm doing these
things to make sure that it'sworth my time.
Because like you said, you haveto put some effort in even to
find somebody.
Carol Sargent (05:21):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you have to try it.
Right? You have to test it.
Yeah. You have to have thatinitial conversation, ask those
initial questions, and and itmight take 10 before you find
one that clicks. Or somebodywho's willing to spend a little
bit of time. Doesn't take a lotof time to have a mentor mentee
relationship. Maybe you onlyhave coffee once a quarter.
(05:42):
Maybe it's usually more often inthe beginning and then twice a
year is enough. And then theremight be an emergency phone call
in between those times that,uh-oh, this thing just happened,
and I don't know how to addressthis. What thoughts do you have?
And if they've gotten to knowyou, then they can give you more
context personal advice asopposed to generic advice. I
(06:03):
mean, you can go get a book onany one topic and get generic
advice.
But what about you, yourconcerns, your constraints, your
strengths and weaknesses? Inthat setting, how would you
address this?
Adam Larson (06:14):
Yeah. So what do you think that when you're
looking at mentors and mentees,is it always gonna be and maybe
end up being a friendship thatdevelops, or is it does it have
to be a friendship? Like, whatis that what is that where does
that balance and those thingslie? Because I know you've had a
lot of different experienceswith mentors and mentees.
Carol Sargent (06:32):
Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, it's not unusual to have a
friendship develop Mhmm.Especially if you do it over
several years. But it doesn'thave to be a friendship.
It can be a professionalrelationship. Mhmm. Sometimes
there's a great difference powerdifference between the mentor
might be the partner in chargeof the New York office, and the
(06:54):
mentee might be a new hire. And,boy, they are living in
completely different worlds, andthey're not likely to, you know,
have sort of that friendshipequal relationship.
Adam Larson (07:06):
Mhmm.
Carol Sargent (07:06):
Certainly, friend leave.
Adam Larson (07:08):
Yeah.
Carol Sargent (07:08):
Friend leave. Some relationships I'm in one
right now that's 40 years old.Okay. Terrific. But some of them
may be only lasted eight or fouror like the students spent three
years.
So sometimes you don't know. Youhave to give the gift, and then
you don't know what the returnis gonna be. You have to for
both of you. Right? Mhmm.
You have to make a decision. I'mgonna try it.
Adam Larson (07:29):
Do you think that formal mentoring programs are
more effective than just or onesthat happen organically? Like,
what do you think the differenceis there?
Carol Sargent (07:37):
That that's a great question. Many of the
organizations, not all, but manyof them gave me an official,
both as a mentor and mentee,gave me an official
relationship. This is yourmentor. You're a new hire in
this firm, and here is so and sois your mentor. And you're
required to meet with yourmentor at least once a year, and
so you would sit down and meetwith the mentor.
In my organization right now, wehave that. You're assigned a
(07:59):
mentor when you're hired, sothat's not unusual. When it's an
obligation, it's a differentdynamic. So you could be lucky.
None none of my officiallyassigned mentors ever turned out
to be a mentor to me.
Officially assigned menteessometimes turned out to be
mentees for me, but not all thetime. I would say 10% at most
(08:22):
just because they're notcarefully constructed. They're
done out of convenience or, youknow, you're the first on the
list. You're assigned to youknow, somebody hasn't spent a
lot of time figuring out, well,you're an extrovert or you have
this situation or you havewhatever it is. Right?
Whatever that magical thing is.Sometimes it's usually I asked a
(08:44):
question. So I was a new hire.I'm getting off the elevator. A
partner said something to me.
I asked a question, and they'relike, that's a good question. We
should talk. As a mentee, if youwant to be mentored, I think you
you know what? If you have over50 questions, they're gonna run.
Right?
Because you look too needy. Buta good couple of questions in
(09:05):
your hip pocket all the time isa really good idea. What did you
really care about and you'vebeen wondering about? Like, what
do you do with a nonprofitclient? How do you know if
they're successful?
Because profits are like thisway to figure out if things are
going well.
Adam Larson (09:18):
But Yeah.
Carol Sargent (09:19):
We're always zero. You're a nonprofit. That
was the question I had in theelevator with this particular
person who ended up being a verylong term mentor of me and saved
my family so many times, which agood mentor will do. Yeah.
Adam Larson (09:36):
Well, it's funny you mentioned that saving your
family a number of times. Youknow, how what what are some
advice you give to mentors, youknow, helping to navigate, like,
ethical dilemmas in theworkplace? You know? Always good
to have a trusting soundboard,but, like, if you're in a high
pressure environment situation,you know, what are some ways
that mentors can help helpmentees navigate the course?
Because it's never easy Well,
Carol Sargent (09:55):
just all of us in the finance profession really as
stewards. So I, unfortunately,have to tell you that every
organization that I've been in,every single one, somebody has
asked me to do the wrong thing.So you would think it would be
really unusual, but it's not. Soas a mentor, what I wanna do is
normalize that. People are gonnaask you to do the wrong thing,
(10:17):
and it's usually not becausethey're bad people because but
because they have a problem.
They have some kind of problem.And the easy way to do that is
let's reclassify this so we'rewe're not in violation of the
covenants on the bank. It'll getthrough this, and two days
later, you can reverse it.Nobody will be hurt. And, of
course, they're just in a panic.
Right? So they're not reallytrying to do the wrong thing.
That just looks like an easy wayto solve the problem. And so
(10:41):
what I wanna do with a mentee isnormalize it. Say this is gonna
happen.
It's probably gonna happen. Mayhappen multiple times. So what
are your options? Right? So oneof the options should not be do
the thing.
Right? So you wanna dig deeper.What is actually the problem
we're trying to solve here?We're in violation of the
covenant with the bank. Would itbe okay with you if I call the
bank and get a ninety dayreprieve on that telling them
(11:02):
the story?
Oh, yeah. Okay. But you gotta doit by tomorrow. No problem.
Doing it right now.
Right? So you give them someother solution to the problem.
You don't turn them into the badguy. One of the great things
that somebody told me, pull outof your pocket immediately and
go, oh, I would love to do that.Right?
So you feel their pain. Right?You're under some kind of
pressure. You got some sort ofproblem. You can solve the
(11:24):
problem easily by doing thisthing that you shouldn't do.
So you feel their pain. I'd loveto do that. Actually is the
problem? What are the other wayswe can address it? So if you're
familiar with the fraudtriangle, fraud can only happen
if there are three elementspresent.
One is pressure. Nobody reallydoes fraud if they're not under
(11:44):
some sort of pressure. They havehave to have the ability to pull
it off. And often that financialprofessor professional is that
one in charge of the controlsthat says, boundary issue, you
can't you can't just plug thefinancial statements to solve
your problem. So we have tosolve your problem in another
way, but we don't have to turnyou into the villain.
There are organizations wherethere's just a lot going on in
(12:05):
which case you have to get outof the flooded pond. But most of
the time, just somebody's in apanic. Mhmm. They think you can
solve their problem. They reallyhaven't thought deeply about the
fact that you're you'recompletely ruining the culture
and all of a sudden doing thewrong thing is the way we solve
problems around here.
And now you've got yourself abig mess. So and then you get
your stuff like Enron happening.So that's not a good way to to
(12:27):
run a world, and it's a badthing for the profession. But
everybody, everywhere that I'vegone has asked me to do
something wrong at least onetime, and I I feel their pain.
She wouldn't that be great if Icould do that?
But I can't. So, anyway, what isthe actual problem? Then, of
course, then help them solve theproblem. And then, of course,
they come to you and say theystart coming to you and say, I
(12:49):
have a problem. Right?
And then they wanna solve theproblem. They don't keep coming
to you and saying, by the way,can we just steal 600 again? You
know? Mhmm. They start figuringit out.
Sometimes they bully you, andthen having a mentor is very,
very helpful because they say,if you don't change net income
to whatever, you're fired.That's a lot of pressure,
especially on a a new hire wheresomebody hands you a quote and
(13:11):
says, get the heck out. You haveto have some seniority to look
back at them and go, are youdone yet? And they and they
stare at you, and then they putit back on the hook and they
leave and they go, you're youweren't very helpful. And I go,
yeah.
I know. You know? Make you liveon. And you say, I'm gonna
pretend that never happened. Youknow, like you're outing.
Or if it happens a lot, you needto be in another organization.
(13:33):
So but it is so helpful. Thefirst time that somebody asked
me to do the wrong thing, Iimmediately was with my mentor
going, what do I do here?Because you're you're a new
hire. You're vulnerable.
You can be easily fired. Youhave no gravitas, right, to
bring to the situation. So Yeah.But my mentor was very, very
helpful in telling me how toaddress it. So I hope it never
(13:55):
happens to you or anybody that'slistening, but it might.
Adam Larson (13:59):
For sure. So it's it's important to have some sort
of a sounding board, somebodythat you can talk to, especially
in those high criticalsituations. Because when those
things happen many times, theway the person trying to get you
to commit the fraud succeeds isbecause you feel alone and
isolated. And so
Carol Sargent (14:14):
But they mean, they usually minimize it. Like,
this is no big deal. Why are youfreaking out? Right? They they
minimize, like, something'swrong with you.
So it's nice to and it's alsonice to rehearse in advance with
my students. Tell them, youknow, if somebody's asked me to
do the wrong thing all the time,now let's let's rehearse. Right?
So we'll role play and rehearse,and that's helpful with the
mentee too.
Adam Larson (14:34):
So I'm thinking about mentors now. You know, we
talked about a little bit aboutmentees. Let's say somebody's
listening to this conversationand says, you know what? I wanna
be a mentor. Do you think theyshould be a mentee first before
they become a mentor, or can youjust be a mentor?
Are there qualities you shouldlook at in yourself to be a good
mentor?
Carol Sargent (14:49):
Well, if you've been a mentee and you've had a
good mentor, you've got a goodrole model. But I don't think
you have to have been a mentee.I think you wanna be a good
encourager. You wanna beconsistent and keep showing up.
You don't wanna overwhelm orboss your mentee around, so you
wanna maybe have one goal forthe next meeting and pick up how
did that go.
And then if they didn't listento any of the things that you
(15:12):
said, you could certainly checkand say, what do you think it
was about those that didn't workout? Right? So try to help them
to be thinking through. Thisjust happened yesterday. I had a
mentee come who told me twoyears ago, this is my main goal,
this goal a, and nothing'shappened on goal a for however
many six meetings.
And I said, how's goal a? Oh,I'm gonna get to it. I just had
(15:32):
this other thing happen, thisreally great thing here and
great thing here. Great. I waslike, really great, but thought
you were interested in goal a.
Well, I am. I am. I am. I said,well, you keep chasing all these
other minor goals. What do youthink is going on?
Right? So you help to help thembecome more self aware by just
asking questions, askingquestions, and helping them try
to listen and sound, reflectback. I thought you were just
(15:55):
well, it's changed. Okay. Nowthe goal's changed.
Or no. The goal hasn't changed.I just keep getting distracted.
Okay. Sometimes you have to helpthem learn how to say no,
especially new folks in thecareer.
They wanna say yes to everyproject, and all of a sudden
they yes themselves intofailure. And so that was
happening with one of my othermentees recently. Just accepted
(16:16):
every assignment, loved it all,loved it all, and, of course,
ended up in a big mess. So Isaid, well, you have to learn to
I could never say no. I I wouldbe impossible.
I said, well, then you can't sayno. You've got to say something
else. How about say, I'd love todo that. Let me schedule it.
Adam Larson (16:31):
Yeah.
Carol Sargent (16:31):
I could do it starting two years from now
unless you take this away.Right? So that that worked. So
sometimes you just if you have alittle bit of flexibility and
caring, right, you have to showan interest in care and and
follow-up. So it's I love it.
I love it. But you go in thatwhen you're gonna get anything
back, but then you do end upgetting so much back, but you
(16:54):
don't know that. You can't knowthat till later. You have to
invest first.
Adam Larson (16:58):
You have to invest first. See, you have to you have
to, you know, plant the seedfirst and to see the fruit grow.
Right? That same kind ofanalogy.
Carol Sargent (17:04):
You have to step out.
Adam Larson (17:05):
Maybe you can share just some long like, some
professional personal benefitsthat you've received from being
a mentor.
Carol Sargent (17:12):
Well, I mean, seeing them grow and succeed is
terrific. Of course, you and Italked earlier about how right
now my boss is a former mentee.And so that's from forty years
ago. So you never know whensomething like that is gonna
happen. I was in an interviewone time, the only time I ever
worked for a SEC company, and Idid get the job.
(17:33):
But in the interview, the nameof my mentor came up, and that
ended up apparently swinging thedecision. And if that person was
my mentor, you know, I had thejob, and that was the end of the
conversation. Was like, wow.That was abrupt. So but I had no
idea because he hadn't been mymentor for decades.
Mhmm. You know, you just youdon't do it for that, but it
(17:56):
it's just sometimes life comesaround full circle. Sometimes
they've helped me in I will saythat many times I get into
reverse mentoring, which Ididn't is just good luck. So
maybe when the George Floyddisaster happened, I had three
mentees where that was part oftheir life at that time. And I
(18:21):
remember calling them up andsaying, You've got to teach me
about this.
You have to help me understandhow I can be a good person and a
good professional right now withyou. And I learned a ton. I
learned a ton. So I've learned alot from my mentees, both as
they grow and also as they haveexpertise that I know nothing
(18:42):
about. And so it is nice to asksomething of the mentees because
they're more they're less likelyto feel self conscious about
asking something of you.
So when I ask my new students,tell I've got a new batch of
freshmen coming in. Did you everfeel like leaving the school and
why? Help me understand. Putyour freshman head on and help
(19:04):
me understand today's freshmenthat did high school in the
basement with dad. You know?
Help me. So and they will. Andthen they're less self conscious
about asking something of youbecause they've helped you.
Mhmm. I would say that's evenmore true of kind of first
generation students or generateor students that have come from
(19:25):
a background where they didn'tget much help.
The more you show that you canhelp me, then maybe they'd be
more likely to reach out andsay, hey. Could you help me
here?
Adam Larson (19:35):
You just mentioned reverse mentoring. Can maybe you
define that for audience?
Carol Sargent (19:40):
You know, I wish I could. It's the term I just I
think I made it up, but there'sprobably a more elegant term for
that. But it's where yourecognize that you're good at
some things and they're good atother things, even if you have
shared interest or a sharedprofession or part of your
story, career story overlaps,that sometimes you wanna ask
(20:01):
them something or get a secondopinion about something because
you're not entirely sure. So mymentor of forty years told me
just three weeks ago and said, Idon't understand why they're not
happy about this thing. I thinkthis thing is great.
What do you think? And I toldher, think it was terrible,
here's why. And she's like, Oh,I didn't oh. Oh. So, you know,
(20:22):
that's very helpful.
And I called that person howevermany times and said, I don't
understand why they don't likethis thing that I think it's
great. 'll say, because of this,and go, oh. So it's just really
nice to have that. It's awonderful, wonderful thing if
you take the time to build it.
Adam Larson (20:41):
Well, yeah, it's taking time to build it, taking
the time to be self aware enoughthat, hey. I may not understand
something completely. Andinstead of making assumptions or
making judgments based on mylimited ignorance, I should
actually teach myself somethingand learn something about it.
And so that's a that's a hugething that I think we could all
benefit from.
Carol Sargent (21:01):
Well, sometimes we ask somebody in our personal
life, a spouse, a brother, aparent, whatever it is, a
neighbor who we think, and andthey may not have the requisite
experience to really be a goodsounding board, whereas a mentor
might. A mentor should be safe.Right? If if I don't like the
advice that my husband gives me,he might wonder why I didn't
(21:23):
take his perfectly lovelyadvice, whereas with a mentor, I
don't have to worry about thepouty face. Mhmm.
So let's talk a little
Adam Larson (21:31):
bit about self awareness. What at what point
did you realize, hey. I need tobe self aware. Were you always
self aware? Did you have tobuild that in yourself?
Carol Sargent (21:38):
I was not self aware. My first mentor had to
make me self aware.
Adam Larson (21:42):
Okay.
Carol Sargent (21:42):
This first time that he told me, it came on
really strong, but I guess Ineeded it. I don't I think I
criticized something, and Idon't remember what I
criticized. I just remember himlooking at me and saying, you
have to stop being mean. So andso then he explained himself why
that was, and I didn't realizethat I was that critical and and
critical in a very quick way.Like, I didn't let somebody
(22:05):
fully elaborate something, and Iimmediately cut him off at the
knees.
Never intending to do that. Ithought, well, I've already
found the flaw in yoursituation, so I'll save you the
time, and we'll move on to thenext thing. But it wasn't
playing out like that. He in myhead, I thought, this is
terrific, but it was notterrific. So, anyway, no.
He was and that helped me tostay on the mentoring thing
(22:27):
because I thought I would neverhave figured that out because I
thought it was genius, andeverybody else thinks I'm a
jerk. And so that that was thatwas very helpful early in my
career to go, it's not what youthink. It's what they think. So
that so I asked more questions,and I started asking more
questions. How does this comeacross?
(22:47):
That kind of thing. And so itdidn't it made me realize I have
a blind spot. I have many blindspots, but that was the first
time I remember it beingrevealed to me so clearly. So,
anyway, that was a real gift.
Adam Larson (23:00):
Well, even after all these years of mentoring and
being a mentee, you know, areyou still learning stuff about
yourself?
Carol Sargent (23:07):
Yes. Oh, yes. I was in mentee meeting yesterday,
and everything that I said, thementee disagreed with. And at
the end, I said, this is sofantastic. I would never have
thought of that at all, any ofthat.
Mhmm. And to me, it was like thesame I feel the same way. This
was the best meeting everbecause of the fact that we
didn't agree so we could talk itout. And so I could learn about
(23:29):
myself. Why is it that you avoidthose situations?
So why do you keep running infront of the bus? Why do you
actually like those situations?And so he could explain himself,
I could explain myself, but weactually bonded over it. It was
it was really great. So, yeah,I'm still learning about myself
for sure.
Adam Larson (23:46):
That's awesome. And I I love that you have that
willingness to learn because itseems like to be a good mentor
or even a good mentee, you haveto kind of be open. You have to
be willing to trust. You have tobe willing to kind of be
vulnerable in a lot of ways andbe willing to have uncomfortable
conversations because you can'tsay, hey. That was mean to
somebody who you're not willingto have an uncomfortable
(24:06):
conversation with.
And what does that look like asyou're kind of building up your
skills to be a mentor?
Carol Sargent (24:11):
Well, that's not the first conversation probably
you would have. Right? You wouldhave to
Adam Larson (24:14):
have
Carol Sargent (24:15):
built some some trust. That wouldn't have been
the opening zealot for thatparticular person.
Adam Larson (24:21):
Of course.
Carol Sargent (24:23):
I don't know. I think some of it is good luck.
And, also, if you're willing tobe vulnerable and not
judgmental, the chances arebetter that they will be too. So
we you know, just have to buildit. It doesn't happen with
everybody.
Mhmm. But if you don't do itwith anybody, it will never
happen with anybody. Start.
Adam Larson (24:44):
Yeah. You gotta start. I mean, you gotta try it.
You gotta try it. Put yourselfout there, and you're gonna make
mistakes.
Right? You can't nothing's gonnabe perfect right away. Yeah.
Carol Sargent (24:53):
One more. So if the first three don't work,
don't stop. Yeah. Try to figureout why they didn't work. Ask
somebody.
I tried to be a mentee to thesethree people, and it didn't
work. Here's what I tried. Whatdo you think I did wrong? That
could be your mentor. Right?
Somebody's interested in thatand wants to talk about that,
start there. Solve that problemfirst.
Adam Larson (25:14):
Yeah. Talk a little bit about that. Maybe I'm sure
you've had times where you'vetried to do the mentor mentee
role and something didn't workout. Like, what does that look
like? And how do you kind of,like, okay.
Like, recognize this isn'tworking. Let's move our separate
ways.
Carol Sargent (25:25):
Yeah. So that happened pretty recently. I had
somebody that wasn't respondingto I thought this person needed
mentoring. I thought it was theright person. So, anyway, I I
did some reaching out and gotnothing.
And I ran into the person in thehallway, and I said, hey. Am I
doing something wrong? Are younot interested in mentoring? How
(25:46):
can I help you find somebodythat would like to talk to you
about this thing? You know,what?
Help me. Help me, you know,figure it out. And he said, no.
You're not doing anything wrong.You're great.
I said, well, how is that evenpossible? We haven't met. How
could I be doing great? Right?But all I've done is initiate,
initiate, initiate, and I getnothing from you.
(26:08):
Like, that doesn't oh. Right? Sohe that was his self awareness
moment. Right? Like, oh, I'm notdoing my part.
And he did a big turnaround. Idon't know that it was that. It
probably was that plus sevenother things. I might have been
the tipping point. All of asudden, he started to click and
do some things that he needed tobe doing, and I haven't had a
(26:30):
chance to follow-up to see whatelse is going on with him.
So sometimes you're in the rightplace at the right time. Mhmm.
Or maybe he was just ready.Yeah. But he probably needed
somebody else.
He probably needed somebodyelse, but at least I hope he got
it. Hope he got the right, youknow, somebody that he could
respond to.
Adam Larson (26:47):
And I'm sure it's it's it's making sure being
aware enough to say, I'm notgonna take this personally that
this relationship didn't work.
Carol Sargent (26:53):
No. That's right. That's right. So but if you take
everything personally, thiswon't be a harder life.
Adam Larson (27:01):
That's just in general with everything. I'm
sure.
Carol Sargent (27:03):
Just in general. Right? Yes. So I know that's
hard, but, yeah, trying to dosomething else.
Adam Larson (27:10):
For sure.
Carol Sargent (27:11):
So can you tell me
Adam Larson (27:13):
what it's been like, you know, being a mentor
over all these years? And haveyou been able to learn things
and become a better leaderbecause of it?
Carol Sargent (27:22):
Well, I I think probably in many ways and maybe
a better person.
Adam Larson (27:27):
Okay.
Carol Sargent (27:27):
Maybe a more empathetic, effective person
because when it doesn't work orwhen it gets off the rails, I
learn to diagnose and fix, or Itry to. And same thing with the
mentee. When it doesn't work andgoes off the rails and you
finally find your mentor, youwhy did that not work? Those
other things I tried. Right?
And you can get some feedback.And feedback is the breakfast of
(27:49):
champions. So when my menteesgive me feedback and I do try to
reverse mentor and ask them forfeedback, I'm sure that they've
all helped me be more effectiveas a leader, as a contributor,
as a person, as a communitymember, you name it. I've tried
as best I can.
Adam Larson (28:08):
Yeah. So we're looking at
Carol Sargent (28:11):
It's in that Go ahead. It's in that box of
important but not urgent. Areyou familiar with that,
Quadrant? Okay. So that's wherementoring lives.
And sometimes my mentees are sointense in the other boxes that
they can't ever find time to getinto that box, which is where
development happens. And sosometimes that's mentoring
(28:31):
number one. And I'm blessed forwhatever reason that that box
attracts me. And I spend I locktime to be in that box.
Adam Larson (28:41):
Mhmm.
Carol Sargent (28:41):
So if you can't ever open up that box, I don't
think you can be a mentor or amentee. Yeah. And you might just
be too
Adam Larson (28:53):
You might just be too busy, and that's a bigger
issue that you need to kindawork through.
Carol Sargent (28:57):
Right. So now we have to talk about how to say
no. Right? We have to have thatother conversation. So I've done
a lot of mentoring of peoplethat report to me.
Mhmm. And so that probably hashelped my leadership. So let's
talk a little
Adam Larson (29:14):
bit about that, the difference between, like,
mentoring somebody who's who'sreporting to you versus
mentoring somebody who works ata different organization. What
does that look like? And how canyou like, what what do you think
is are there certain situationswhere one is better over the
other, or it just depends?
Carol Sargent (29:25):
So when you're inside the organization, you
have a lot of importantinformation that impacts that
person's ability to be promotedor to move to another area or to
develop because you're aware ofthe other opportunities. So when
I was hiring, I was often hiredstraight out of college, and
then I would mentor them tillthey were basically my
(29:47):
counterpart in another part ofthe organization, or they would
be hired away by treasury or oneof the manufacturing units or
whatever. They would go on totheir happiness place. So you
have a lot of information, thenyou can share information with
the organization about thatdeveloping talent. So that's a
special kind of mentoringsituation where you have very
important information for them.
(30:09):
Outside the organization though,you can do more personal
mentoring where it's safe tomuch of the mentoring early in
the queries because somebody'sdone something. So my boss
yelled at me for not knowing howto do it, but they never showed
me how to do it. What do I donow? So there's a lot of, you
know, that kind of a thing. Ifyou're inside an organization,
you don't really wanna complainabout your boss, certainly can't
(30:29):
complain about your boss to yourboss.
Right? Or at least that doesn'tgo so well. So having somebody
outside the organization thatcan sort of coach you on, okay.
Is it that your boss had one badday, or do they always yell at
you? How many often does thishappen?
Is there any possibility thatyou could have looked something
up and they might be right, thatyou're asking too many
questions, some of which youcould have solved for yourself?
(30:50):
Right? So you can you canexplore with them in a way
that's independent oforganizations. So there's
advantages to both, I think.It's not that's why it's ideal
if you have one inside and oneoutside.
Adam Larson (31:02):
That Makes sense.
Carol Sargent (31:03):
You know? You have to make that happen.
Adam Larson (31:06):
Yeah. You do. So when I think about, you know, in
the accounting profession, youknow, it's mentoring
relationships. It seems likethey can support, you know, new
people coming into theprofession trying to get there.
But, also, it seems like the wayfrom what you've been saying,
the food people who have been inthe profession a while, they can
learn a lot from the kids justcoming out of college because
they have this new knowledge,and so it can be a mutually
(31:26):
beneficial relationship.
Do you think that, you know, asas you're growing in your
profession that we should, like,hey. I've been in this
profession for twenty years.Maybe I should look for a mentee
so I can help bring up the like,is that something that should be
important to professionals asthey grow in their career?
Carol Sargent (31:42):
I would encourage folks to do that unless they
have the kind of temperamentwhere they're just not gonna be
successful in it.
Adam Larson (31:49):
But Yeah.
Carol Sargent (31:51):
It's very, very good for the profession to help
them to get certified, to helpthem navigate this first. Their
expectations are usually veryoff in the beginning because
they really don't know what toexpect, especially if they come
from an environment wherenobody's got a college degree or
nobody's been in a professionalrole or whatever. So they
they're there. They'recompletely green. So it's nice
(32:14):
to help somebody navigate thoseexpectations.
They may be a future employee.You never know.
Adam Larson (32:22):
Yeah. They may be. So, Carol, as we wrap up this
conversation, I just wanted tosee, are there any, like,
lasting pointers that you wannajust leave with our audience as
they're they may have beenlistening. They're trying to
figure things out, and these aresome things you want them to
remember as they're walkingaway.
Carol Sargent (32:37):
We're having arguments about AI. I'm sure
that other people are too.Fruitful positive ones, but
we're trying to figure it out.Other people are trying to
figure out. And one of thethings that we keep coming back
to is that emotional quotientwill always matter.
You know, those soft skills,they're they're not in fashion.
Again, they've never leftfashion. Right? So a good mentor
(33:01):
can help you develop your EQ,your emotional intelligence, and
a good mentee can learn as well.So I just was getting ready to
start venturing my freshmanclass, and I put EQ in the
Amazon search.
50,000 hits. 50,000 differentbooks with that in the title,
emotional intelligence. So ifyou wanna up your EQ, this is
(33:25):
just a wonderful, wonderful wayto do it, and you don't know the
prize at the end of the tunnel.Mhmm. Everybody go out and up
your EQ.
Adam Larson (33:32):
I think that's a great I think that's a great way
to end it, Carol. Thank you somuch. Everybody go out there and
up your EQ and, connect withCher.
Carol Sargent (33:39):
Let's do it. Alright. Well, it's nice to talk
to you.
Announcer (33:45):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
Welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson.
In today's episode, I'm joinedby Carol Sargent, associate
professor of accounting atMercer University and a seasoned
mentor with a wealth ofexperience in both industry and
academia. Together, we dive intothe ins and outs of mentoring,
exploring how roles of a mentorand mentee differ depending on
your environment and what itreally takes to build
(00:26):
meaningful, effective mentoringrelationships. Carol shares
practical advice on seeking outmentors, building trust, and
navigating through thoseprofessional moments like
ethical dilemmas where a goodmentor makes all the difference.
Whether you're just starting outor looking to pay it forward as
a mentor yourself, this episodeoffers wisdom on developing
emotional intelligence, becominga better leader, supporting
(00:46):
those around you. Tune in for athought provoking and motivating
conversation that might justinspire you to take your own
mentoring journey to the nextlevel. Well, Carol, I just wanna
welcome you to the Count Me Inpodcast. I'm excited today to be
talking with you about being amentor and being a mentee. And I
(01:08):
figured we could start ourconversation by how does how
does the experience of being amentor or mentee differ between
industry and academia?
Because you've done it in bothplaces. You've done it when
you're in industry, you've doneit when you're in academia. And
maybe there are there somelessons we can learn just to
kinda get our feet wet here?
Carol Sargent (01:24):
Right. So there are differences, pretty big
differences, and that's usuallythe time frame. In industry, you
might be working with somebodyfor years. They might have
connected with you as a new hireor even during the recruiting
process. And so you're with themas they progress through the
organization, or maybe theyleave the organization.
Now they're in a differentorganization, but they kept up
with you. In academia, you mayonly have them for a semester or
(01:48):
maybe two semesters or at mostfor two or three years, and then
they leave. So you have lesstime to percolate. Students
sometimes keep up with youafterwards, and you can mentor
after graduation, but that'sless likely than across a more
professional career. Myprofessional colleagues will
keep up with me even after theywent to other organizations, but
(02:10):
students feel less likely to dothat.
I don't I'm not sure why.
Adam Larson (02:13):
Yeah. It's interest you're right. Is a completely
different environments. And sowhen you're when you're a mentor
in college, you're like, I'mexcited about doing things, and
you're trying to move in yourcareer. You're trying to learn
things quickly.
And in a career, it's adifferent and why do you think a
lot of people are resistant togetting mentors, especially when
you're a professional?
Carol Sargent (02:31):
I don't know that people are resistant to getting
mentors. I think they might bewhere you and I were just
talking and that it takes alittle bit of energy to find
one. Yeah. And the gold standardis to have an internal mentee in
your organization, but also anexternal one that's independent
of organization. You have to beeither very lucky or intentional
or maybe both to have that idea.
Adam Larson (02:55):
For sure. So when let's start with the from the
perspective of a of a mentee.What do you think what are
qualities you should look for ina in a mentor? Let's say you're
a young professional. You justcame out of college.
You're you just got your CMA orworking towards your CMA. And
and what are what are somequalities that you think, hey.
This is an impactful mentor. AndI know each person is different,
(03:16):
but, you know, what are therecertain qualities that we should
all be looking for?
Carol Sargent (03:20):
So one who's open to it. Right? One who's willing
to to give you a little bit oftime, and that's on the mentee
to be interesting. Right? To askone or two interesting questions
that'll catch the attention of amentor.
And so then they'll begin aconversation and say, hey. Are
you open to following up on thismaybe for coffee, or maybe I'll
stop by after work, and we cango for a walk and go into that
(03:43):
topic. So if a mentee comes inwith a question or two to sort
of prompt, I'm curious aboutthis thing, and maybe we talk
for a few minutes. Are you opento following up? And then you
you know, that's how you canmaybe get one launched.
Mhmm. I mean, it does take alittle bit of luck and a little
bit of connection because youhave to build up that trust. You
have to build up that mutualdesire to connect and to pay it
(04:08):
forward or to, make theinvestment. So there has to be
some chemistry.
Adam Larson (04:15):
Yeah. It's almost like a mentor mentee
relationship is like a is like ait's almost it's very similar
to, like, romantic relationship.If there's no chemistry, how can
you grow and move forward in inromance? Sometimes that's what
people say as they're lookingfor chemistry.
Carol Sargent (04:31):
I shared that it's chemistry in that context,
maybe in terms of shared valuesor shared interests or shared
understanding of how it would bebetter if I took my difficult
topics to somebody who's maybedone other difficult topics.
Adam Larson (04:47):
Yeah.
Carol Sargent (04:47):
So it's it's there's a respect kind of
chemistry that I respect you forwanting to know to bring in your
problems, and I respect you totake my problems seriously and
give me multiple viewpointswithout bossing me around,
without judging me. So noteverybody can do that.
Adam Larson (05:05):
Yeah. Not everybody can. If you're a mentee and you
wanna you wanna make sure thatyour time is effective, are
there certain things orpractices that you should be
looking to do? Like, hey. Iwanna make sure I'm doing these
things to make sure that it'sworth my time.
Because like you said, you haveto put some effort in even to
find somebody.
Carol Sargent (05:21):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you have to try it.
Right? You have to test it.
Yeah. You have to have thatinitial conversation, ask those
initial questions, and and itmight take 10 before you find
one that clicks. Or somebodywho's willing to spend a little
bit of time. Doesn't take a lotof time to have a mentor mentee
relationship. Maybe you onlyhave coffee once a quarter.
(05:42):
Maybe it's usually more often inthe beginning and then twice a
year is enough. And then theremight be an emergency phone call
in between those times that,uh-oh, this thing just happened,
and I don't know how to addressthis. What thoughts do you have?
And if they've gotten to knowyou, then they can give you more
context personal advice asopposed to generic advice. I
(06:03):
mean, you can go get a book onany one topic and get generic
advice.
But what about you, yourconcerns, your constraints, your
strengths and weaknesses? Inthat setting, how would you
address this?
Adam Larson (06:14):
Yeah. So what do you think that when you're
looking at mentors and mentees,is it always gonna be and maybe
end up being a friendship thatdevelops, or is it does it have
to be a friendship? Like, whatis that what is that where does
that balance and those thingslie? Because I know you've had a
lot of different experienceswith mentors and mentees.
Carol Sargent (06:32):
Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, it's not unusual to have a
friendship develop Mhmm.Especially if you do it over
several years. But it doesn'thave to be a friendship.
It can be a professionalrelationship. Mhmm. Sometimes
there's a great difference powerdifference between the mentor
might be the partner in chargeof the New York office, and the
(06:54):
mentee might be a new hire. And,boy, they are living in
completely different worlds, andthey're not likely to, you know,
have sort of that friendshipequal relationship.
Adam Larson (07:06):
Mhmm.
Carol Sargent (07:06):
Certainly, friend leave.
Adam Larson (07:08):
Yeah.
Carol Sargent (07:08):
Friend leave. Some relationships I'm in one
right now that's 40 years old.Okay. Terrific. But some of them
may be only lasted eight or fouror like the students spent three
years.
So sometimes you don't know. Youhave to give the gift, and then
you don't know what the returnis gonna be. You have to for
both of you. Right? Mhmm.
You have to make a decision. I'mgonna try it.
Adam Larson (07:29):
Do you think that formal mentoring programs are
more effective than just or onesthat happen organically? Like,
what do you think the differenceis there?
Carol Sargent (07:37):
That that's a great question. Many of the
organizations, not all, but manyof them gave me an official,
both as a mentor and mentee,gave me an official
relationship. This is yourmentor. You're a new hire in
this firm, and here is so and sois your mentor. And you're
required to meet with yourmentor at least once a year, and
so you would sit down and meetwith the mentor.
In my organization right now, wehave that. You're assigned a
(07:59):
mentor when you're hired, sothat's not unusual. When it's an
obligation, it's a differentdynamic. So you could be lucky.
None none of my officiallyassigned mentors ever turned out
to be a mentor to me.
Officially assigned menteessometimes turned out to be
mentees for me, but not all thetime. I would say 10% at most
(08:22):
just because they're notcarefully constructed. They're
done out of convenience or, youknow, you're the first on the
list. You're assigned to youknow, somebody hasn't spent a
lot of time figuring out, well,you're an extrovert or you have
this situation or you havewhatever it is. Right?
Whatever that magical thing is.Sometimes it's usually I asked a
(08:44):
question. So I was a new hire.I'm getting off the elevator. A
partner said something to me.
I asked a question, and they'relike, that's a good question. We
should talk. As a mentee, if youwant to be mentored, I think you
you know what? If you have over50 questions, they're gonna run.
Right?
Because you look too needy. Buta good couple of questions in
(09:05):
your hip pocket all the time isa really good idea. What did you
really care about and you'vebeen wondering about? Like, what
do you do with a nonprofitclient? How do you know if
they're successful?
Because profits are like thisway to figure out if things are
going well.
Adam Larson (09:18):
But Yeah.
Carol Sargent (09:19):
We're always zero. You're a nonprofit. That
was the question I had in theelevator with this particular
person who ended up being a verylong term mentor of me and saved
my family so many times, which agood mentor will do. Yeah.
Adam Larson (09:36):
Well, it's funny you mentioned that saving your
family a number of times. Youknow, how what what are some
advice you give to mentors, youknow, helping to navigate, like,
ethical dilemmas in theworkplace? You know? Always good
to have a trusting soundboard,but, like, if you're in a high
pressure environment situation,you know, what are some ways
that mentors can help helpmentees navigate the course?
Because it's never easy Well,
Carol Sargent (09:55):
just all of us in the finance profession really as
stewards. So I, unfortunately,have to tell you that every
organization that I've been in,every single one, somebody has
asked me to do the wrong thing.So you would think it would be
really unusual, but it's not. Soas a mentor, what I wanna do is
normalize that. People are gonnaask you to do the wrong thing,
(10:17):
and it's usually not becausethey're bad people because but
because they have a problem.
They have some kind of problem.And the easy way to do that is
let's reclassify this so we'rewe're not in violation of the
covenants on the bank. It'll getthrough this, and two days
later, you can reverse it.Nobody will be hurt. And, of
course, they're just in a panic.
Right? So they're not reallytrying to do the wrong thing.
That just looks like an easy wayto solve the problem. And so
(10:41):
what I wanna do with a mentee isnormalize it. Say this is gonna
happen.
It's probably gonna happen. Mayhappen multiple times. So what
are your options? Right? So oneof the options should not be do
the thing.
Right? So you wanna dig deeper.What is actually the problem
we're trying to solve here?We're in violation of the
covenant with the bank. Would itbe okay with you if I call the
bank and get a ninety dayreprieve on that telling them
(11:02):
the story?
Oh, yeah. Okay. But you gotta doit by tomorrow. No problem.
Doing it right now.
Right? So you give them someother solution to the problem.
You don't turn them into the badguy. One of the great things
that somebody told me, pull outof your pocket immediately and
go, oh, I would love to do that.Right?
So you feel their pain. Right?You're under some kind of
pressure. You got some sort ofproblem. You can solve the
(11:24):
problem easily by doing thisthing that you shouldn't do.
So you feel their pain. I'd loveto do that. Actually is the
problem? What are the other wayswe can address it? So if you're
familiar with the fraudtriangle, fraud can only happen
if there are three elementspresent.
One is pressure. Nobody reallydoes fraud if they're not under
(11:44):
some sort of pressure. They havehave to have the ability to pull
it off. And often that financialprofessor professional is that
one in charge of the controlsthat says, boundary issue, you
can't you can't just plug thefinancial statements to solve
your problem. So we have tosolve your problem in another
way, but we don't have to turnyou into the villain.
There are organizations wherethere's just a lot going on in
(12:05):
which case you have to get outof the flooded pond. But most of
the time, just somebody's in apanic. Mhmm. They think you can
solve their problem. They reallyhaven't thought deeply about the
fact that you're you'recompletely ruining the culture
and all of a sudden doing thewrong thing is the way we solve
problems around here.
And now you've got yourself abig mess. So and then you get
your stuff like Enron happening.So that's not a good way to to
(12:27):
run a world, and it's a badthing for the profession. But
everybody, everywhere that I'vegone has asked me to do
something wrong at least onetime, and I I feel their pain.
She wouldn't that be great if Icould do that?
But I can't. So, anyway, what isthe actual problem? Then, of
course, then help them solve theproblem. And then, of course,
they come to you and say theystart coming to you and say, I
(12:49):
have a problem. Right?
And then they wanna solve theproblem. They don't keep coming
to you and saying, by the way,can we just steal 600 again? You
know? Mhmm. They start figuringit out.
Sometimes they bully you, andthen having a mentor is very,
very helpful because they say,if you don't change net income
to whatever, you're fired.That's a lot of pressure,
especially on a a new hire wheresomebody hands you a quote and
(13:11):
says, get the heck out. You haveto have some seniority to look
back at them and go, are youdone yet? And they and they
stare at you, and then they putit back on the hook and they
leave and they go, you're youweren't very helpful. And I go,
yeah.
I know. You know? Make you liveon. And you say, I'm gonna
pretend that never happened. Youknow, like you're outing.
Or if it happens a lot, you needto be in another organization.
(13:33):
So but it is so helpful. Thefirst time that somebody asked
me to do the wrong thing, Iimmediately was with my mentor
going, what do I do here?Because you're you're a new
hire. You're vulnerable.
You can be easily fired. Youhave no gravitas, right, to
bring to the situation. So Yeah.But my mentor was very, very
helpful in telling me how toaddress it. So I hope it never
(13:55):
happens to you or anybody that'slistening, but it might.
Adam Larson (13:59):
For sure. So it's it's important to have some sort
of a sounding board, somebodythat you can talk to, especially
in those high criticalsituations. Because when those
things happen many times, theway the person trying to get you
to commit the fraud succeeds isbecause you feel alone and
isolated. And so
Carol Sargent (14:14):
But they mean, they usually minimize it. Like,
this is no big deal. Why are youfreaking out? Right? They they
minimize, like, something'swrong with you.
So it's nice to and it's alsonice to rehearse in advance with
my students. Tell them, youknow, if somebody's asked me to
do the wrong thing all the time,now let's let's rehearse. Right?
So we'll role play and rehearse,and that's helpful with the
mentee too.
Adam Larson (14:34):
So I'm thinking about mentors now. You know, we
talked about a little bit aboutmentees. Let's say somebody's
listening to this conversationand says, you know what? I wanna
be a mentor. Do you think theyshould be a mentee first before
they become a mentor, or can youjust be a mentor?
Are there qualities you shouldlook at in yourself to be a good
mentor?
Carol Sargent (14:49):
Well, if you've been a mentee and you've had a
good mentor, you've got a goodrole model. But I don't think
you have to have been a mentee.I think you wanna be a good
encourager. You wanna beconsistent and keep showing up.
You don't wanna overwhelm orboss your mentee around, so you
wanna maybe have one goal forthe next meeting and pick up how
did that go.
And then if they didn't listento any of the things that you
(15:12):
said, you could certainly checkand say, what do you think it
was about those that didn't workout? Right? So try to help them
to be thinking through. Thisjust happened yesterday. I had a
mentee come who told me twoyears ago, this is my main goal,
this goal a, and nothing'shappened on goal a for however
many six meetings.
And I said, how's goal a? Oh,I'm gonna get to it. I just had
(15:32):
this other thing happen, thisreally great thing here and
great thing here. Great. I waslike, really great, but thought
you were interested in goal a.
Well, I am. I am. I am. I said,well, you keep chasing all these
other minor goals. What do youthink is going on?
Right? So you help to help thembecome more self aware by just
asking questions, askingquestions, and helping them try
to listen and sound, reflectback. I thought you were just
(15:55):
well, it's changed. Okay. Nowthe goal's changed.
Or no. The goal hasn't changed.I just keep getting distracted.
Okay. Sometimes you have to helpthem learn how to say no,
especially new folks in thecareer.
They wanna say yes to everyproject, and all of a sudden
they yes themselves intofailure. And so that was
happening with one of my othermentees recently. Just accepted
(16:16):
every assignment, loved it all,loved it all, and, of course,
ended up in a big mess. So Isaid, well, you have to learn to
I could never say no. I I wouldbe impossible.
I said, well, then you can't sayno. You've got to say something
else. How about say, I'd love todo that. Let me schedule it.
Adam Larson (16:31):
Yeah.
Carol Sargent (16:31):
I could do it starting two years from now
unless you take this away.Right? So that that worked. So
sometimes you just if you have alittle bit of flexibility and
caring, right, you have to showan interest in care and and
follow-up. So it's I love it.
I love it. But you go in thatwhen you're gonna get anything
back, but then you do end upgetting so much back, but you
(16:54):
don't know that. You can't knowthat till later. You have to
invest first.
Adam Larson (16:58):
You have to invest first. See, you have to you have
to, you know, plant the seedfirst and to see the fruit grow.
Right? That same kind ofanalogy.
Carol Sargent (17:04):
You have to step out.
Adam Larson (17:05):
Maybe you can share just some long like, some
professional personal benefitsthat you've received from being
a mentor.
Carol Sargent (17:12):
Well, I mean, seeing them grow and succeed is
terrific. Of course, you and Italked earlier about how right
now my boss is a former mentee.And so that's from forty years
ago. So you never know whensomething like that is gonna
happen. I was in an interviewone time, the only time I ever
worked for a SEC company, and Idid get the job.
(17:33):
But in the interview, the nameof my mentor came up, and that
ended up apparently swinging thedecision. And if that person was
my mentor, you know, I had thejob, and that was the end of the
conversation. Was like, wow.That was abrupt. So but I had no
idea because he hadn't been mymentor for decades.
Mhmm. You know, you just youdon't do it for that, but it
(17:56):
it's just sometimes life comesaround full circle. Sometimes
they've helped me in I will saythat many times I get into
reverse mentoring, which Ididn't is just good luck. So
maybe when the George Floyddisaster happened, I had three
mentees where that was part oftheir life at that time. And I
(18:21):
remember calling them up andsaying, You've got to teach me
about this.
You have to help me understandhow I can be a good person and a
good professional right now withyou. And I learned a ton. I
learned a ton. So I've learned alot from my mentees, both as
they grow and also as they haveexpertise that I know nothing
(18:42):
about. And so it is nice to asksomething of the mentees because
they're more they're less likelyto feel self conscious about
asking something of you.
So when I ask my new students,tell I've got a new batch of
freshmen coming in. Did you everfeel like leaving the school and
why? Help me understand. Putyour freshman head on and help
(19:04):
me understand today's freshmenthat did high school in the
basement with dad. You know?
Help me. So and they will. Andthen they're less self conscious
about asking something of youbecause they've helped you.
Mhmm. I would say that's evenmore true of kind of first
generation students or generateor students that have come from
(19:25):
a background where they didn'tget much help.
The more you show that you canhelp me, then maybe they'd be
more likely to reach out andsay, hey. Could you help me
here?
Adam Larson (19:35):
You just mentioned reverse mentoring. Can maybe you
define that for audience?
Carol Sargent (19:40):
You know, I wish I could. It's the term I just I
think I made it up, but there'sprobably a more elegant term for
that. But it's where yourecognize that you're good at
some things and they're good atother things, even if you have
shared interest or a sharedprofession or part of your
story, career story overlaps,that sometimes you wanna ask
(20:01):
them something or get a secondopinion about something because
you're not entirely sure. So mymentor of forty years told me
just three weeks ago and said, Idon't understand why they're not
happy about this thing. I thinkthis thing is great.
What do you think? And I toldher, think it was terrible,
here's why. And she's like, Oh,I didn't oh. Oh. So, you know,
(20:22):
that's very helpful.
And I called that person howevermany times and said, I don't
understand why they don't likethis thing that I think it's
great. 'll say, because of this,and go, oh. So it's just really
nice to have that. It's awonderful, wonderful thing if
you take the time to build it.
Adam Larson (20:41):
Well, yeah, it's taking time to build it, taking
the time to be self aware enoughthat, hey. I may not understand
something completely. Andinstead of making assumptions or
making judgments based on mylimited ignorance, I should
actually teach myself somethingand learn something about it.
And so that's a that's a hugething that I think we could all
benefit from.
Carol Sargent (21:01):
Well, sometimes we ask somebody in our personal
life, a spouse, a brother, aparent, whatever it is, a
neighbor who we think, and andthey may not have the requisite
experience to really be a goodsounding board, whereas a mentor
might. A mentor should be safe.Right? If if I don't like the
advice that my husband gives me,he might wonder why I didn't
(21:23):
take his perfectly lovelyadvice, whereas with a mentor, I
don't have to worry about thepouty face. Mhmm.
So let's talk a little
Adam Larson (21:31):
bit about self awareness. What at what point
did you realize, hey. I need tobe self aware. Were you always
self aware? Did you have tobuild that in yourself?
Carol Sargent (21:38):
I was not self aware. My first mentor had to
make me self aware.
Adam Larson (21:42):
Okay.
Carol Sargent (21:42):
This first time that he told me, it came on
really strong, but I guess Ineeded it. I don't I think I
criticized something, and Idon't remember what I
criticized. I just remember himlooking at me and saying, you
have to stop being mean. So andso then he explained himself why
that was, and I didn't realizethat I was that critical and and
critical in a very quick way.Like, I didn't let somebody
(22:05):
fully elaborate something, and Iimmediately cut him off at the
knees.
Never intending to do that. Ithought, well, I've already
found the flaw in yoursituation, so I'll save you the
time, and we'll move on to thenext thing. But it wasn't
playing out like that. He in myhead, I thought, this is
terrific, but it was notterrific. So, anyway, no.
He was and that helped me tostay on the mentoring thing
(22:27):
because I thought I would neverhave figured that out because I
thought it was genius, andeverybody else thinks I'm a
jerk. And so that that was thatwas very helpful early in my
career to go, it's not what youthink. It's what they think. So
that so I asked more questions,and I started asking more
questions. How does this comeacross?
(22:47):
That kind of thing. And so itdidn't it made me realize I have
a blind spot. I have many blindspots, but that was the first
time I remember it beingrevealed to me so clearly. So,
anyway, that was a real gift.
Adam Larson (23:00):
Well, even after all these years of mentoring and
being a mentee, you know, areyou still learning stuff about
yourself?
Carol Sargent (23:07):
Yes. Oh, yes. I was in mentee meeting yesterday,
and everything that I said, thementee disagreed with. And at
the end, I said, this is sofantastic. I would never have
thought of that at all, any ofthat.
Mhmm. And to me, it was like thesame I feel the same way. This
was the best meeting everbecause of the fact that we
didn't agree so we could talk itout. And so I could learn about
(23:29):
myself. Why is it that you avoidthose situations?
So why do you keep running infront of the bus? Why do you
actually like those situations?And so he could explain himself,
I could explain myself, but weactually bonded over it. It was
it was really great. So, yeah,I'm still learning about myself
for sure.
Adam Larson (23:46):
That's awesome. And I I love that you have that
willingness to learn because itseems like to be a good mentor
or even a good mentee, you haveto kind of be open. You have to
be willing to trust. You have tobe willing to kind of be
vulnerable in a lot of ways andbe willing to have uncomfortable
conversations because you can'tsay, hey. That was mean to
somebody who you're not willingto have an uncomfortable
(24:06):
conversation with.
And what does that look like asyou're kind of building up your
skills to be a mentor?
Carol Sargent (24:11):
Well, that's not the first conversation probably
you would have. Right? You wouldhave to
Adam Larson (24:14):
have
Carol Sargent (24:15):
built some some trust. That wouldn't have been
the opening zealot for thatparticular person.
Adam Larson (24:21):
Of course.
Carol Sargent (24:23):
I don't know. I think some of it is good luck.
And, also, if you're willing tobe vulnerable and not
judgmental, the chances arebetter that they will be too. So
we you know, just have to buildit. It doesn't happen with
everybody.
Mhmm. But if you don't do itwith anybody, it will never
happen with anybody. Start.
Adam Larson (24:44):
Yeah. You gotta start. I mean, you gotta try it.
You gotta try it. Put yourselfout there, and you're gonna make
mistakes.
Right? You can't nothing's gonnabe perfect right away. Yeah.
Carol Sargent (24:53):
One more. So if the first three don't work,
don't stop. Yeah. Try to figureout why they didn't work. Ask
somebody.
I tried to be a mentee to thesethree people, and it didn't
work. Here's what I tried. Whatdo you think I did wrong? That
could be your mentor. Right?
Somebody's interested in thatand wants to talk about that,
start there. Solve that problemfirst.
Adam Larson (25:14):
Yeah. Talk a little bit about that. Maybe I'm sure
you've had times where you'vetried to do the mentor mentee
role and something didn't workout. Like, what does that look
like? And how do you kind of,like, okay.
Like, recognize this isn'tworking. Let's move our separate
ways.
Carol Sargent (25:25):
Yeah. So that happened pretty recently. I had
somebody that wasn't respondingto I thought this person needed
mentoring. I thought it was theright person. So, anyway, I I
did some reaching out and gotnothing.
And I ran into the person in thehallway, and I said, hey. Am I
doing something wrong? Are younot interested in mentoring? How
(25:46):
can I help you find somebodythat would like to talk to you
about this thing? You know,what?
Help me. Help me, you know,figure it out. And he said, no.
You're not doing anything wrong.You're great.
I said, well, how is that evenpossible? We haven't met. How
could I be doing great? Right?But all I've done is initiate,
initiate, initiate, and I getnothing from you.
(26:08):
Like, that doesn't oh. Right? Sohe that was his self awareness
moment. Right? Like, oh, I'm notdoing my part.
And he did a big turnaround. Idon't know that it was that. It
probably was that plus sevenother things. I might have been
the tipping point. All of asudden, he started to click and
do some things that he needed tobe doing, and I haven't had a
(26:30):
chance to follow-up to see whatelse is going on with him.
So sometimes you're in the rightplace at the right time. Mhmm.
Or maybe he was just ready.Yeah. But he probably needed
somebody else.
He probably needed somebodyelse, but at least I hope he got
it. Hope he got the right, youknow, somebody that he could
respond to.
Adam Larson (26:47):
And I'm sure it's it's it's making sure being
aware enough to say, I'm notgonna take this personally that
this relationship didn't work.
Carol Sargent (26:53):
No. That's right. That's right. So but if you take
everything personally, thiswon't be a harder life.
Adam Larson (27:01):
That's just in general with everything. I'm
sure.
Carol Sargent (27:03):
Just in general. Right? Yes. So I know that's
hard, but, yeah, trying to dosomething else.
Adam Larson (27:10):
For sure.
Carol Sargent (27:11):
So can you tell me
Adam Larson (27:13):
what it's been like, you know, being a mentor
over all these years? And haveyou been able to learn things
and become a better leaderbecause of it?
Carol Sargent (27:22):
Well, I I think probably in many ways and maybe
a better person.
Adam Larson (27:27):
Okay.
Carol Sargent (27:27):
Maybe a more empathetic, effective person
because when it doesn't work orwhen it gets off the rails, I
learn to diagnose and fix, or Itry to. And same thing with the
mentee. When it doesn't work andgoes off the rails and you
finally find your mentor, youwhy did that not work? Those
other things I tried. Right?
And you can get some feedback.And feedback is the breakfast of
(27:49):
champions. So when my menteesgive me feedback and I do try to
reverse mentor and ask them forfeedback, I'm sure that they've
all helped me be more effectiveas a leader, as a contributor,
as a person, as a communitymember, you name it. I've tried
as best I can.
Adam Larson (28:08):
Yeah. So we're looking at
Carol Sargent (28:11):
It's in that Go ahead. It's in that box of
important but not urgent. Areyou familiar with that,
Quadrant? Okay. So that's wherementoring lives.
And sometimes my mentees are sointense in the other boxes that
they can't ever find time to getinto that box, which is where
development happens. And sosometimes that's mentoring
(28:31):
number one. And I'm blessed forwhatever reason that that box
attracts me. And I spend I locktime to be in that box.
Adam Larson (28:41):
Mhmm.
Carol Sargent (28:41):
So if you can't ever open up that box, I don't
think you can be a mentor or amentee. Yeah. And you might just
be too
Adam Larson (28:53):
You might just be too busy, and that's a bigger
issue that you need to kindawork through.
Carol Sargent (28:57):
Right. So now we have to talk about how to say
no. Right? We have to have thatother conversation. So I've done
a lot of mentoring of peoplethat report to me.
Mhmm. And so that probably hashelped my leadership. So let's
talk a little
Adam Larson (29:14):
bit about that, the difference between, like,
mentoring somebody who's who'sreporting to you versus
mentoring somebody who works ata different organization. What
does that look like? And how canyou like, what what do you think
is are there certain situationswhere one is better over the
other, or it just depends?
Carol Sargent (29:25):
So when you're inside the organization, you
have a lot of importantinformation that impacts that
person's ability to be promotedor to move to another area or to
develop because you're aware ofthe other opportunities. So when
I was hiring, I was often hiredstraight out of college, and
then I would mentor them tillthey were basically my
(29:47):
counterpart in another part ofthe organization, or they would
be hired away by treasury or oneof the manufacturing units or
whatever. They would go on totheir happiness place. So you
have a lot of information, thenyou can share information with
the organization about thatdeveloping talent. So that's a
special kind of mentoringsituation where you have very
important information for them.
(30:09):
Outside the organization though,you can do more personal
mentoring where it's safe tomuch of the mentoring early in
the queries because somebody'sdone something. So my boss
yelled at me for not knowing howto do it, but they never showed
me how to do it. What do I donow? So there's a lot of, you
know, that kind of a thing. Ifyou're inside an organization,
you don't really wanna complainabout your boss, certainly can't
(30:29):
complain about your boss to yourboss.
Right? Or at least that doesn'tgo so well. So having somebody
outside the organization thatcan sort of coach you on, okay.
Is it that your boss had one badday, or do they always yell at
you? How many often does thishappen?
Is there any possibility thatyou could have looked something
up and they might be right, thatyou're asking too many
questions, some of which youcould have solved for yourself?
(30:50):
Right? So you can you canexplore with them in a way
that's independent oforganizations. So there's
advantages to both, I think.It's not that's why it's ideal
if you have one inside and oneoutside.
Adam Larson (31:02):
That Makes sense.
Carol Sargent (31:03):
You know? You have to make that happen.
Adam Larson (31:06):
Yeah. You do. So when I think about, you know, in
the accounting profession, youknow, it's mentoring
relationships. It seems likethey can support, you know, new
people coming into theprofession trying to get there.
But, also, it seems like the wayfrom what you've been saying,
the food people who have been inthe profession a while, they can
learn a lot from the kids justcoming out of college because
they have this new knowledge,and so it can be a mutually
(31:26):
beneficial relationship.
Do you think that, you know, asas you're growing in your
profession that we should, like,hey. I've been in this
profession for twenty years.Maybe I should look for a mentee
so I can help bring up the like,is that something that should be
important to professionals asthey grow in their career?
Carol Sargent (31:42):
I would encourage folks to do that unless they
have the kind of temperamentwhere they're just not gonna be
successful in it.
Adam Larson (31:49):
But Yeah.
Carol Sargent (31:51):
It's very, very good for the profession to help
them to get certified, to helpthem navigate this first. Their
expectations are usually veryoff in the beginning because
they really don't know what toexpect, especially if they come
from an environment wherenobody's got a college degree or
nobody's been in a professionalrole or whatever. So they
they're there. They'recompletely green. So it's nice
(32:14):
to help somebody navigate thoseexpectations.
They may be a future employee.You never know.
Adam Larson (32:22):
Yeah. They may be. So, Carol, as we wrap up this
conversation, I just wanted tosee, are there any, like,
lasting pointers that you wannajust leave with our audience as
they're they may have beenlistening. They're trying to
figure things out, and these aresome things you want them to
remember as they're walkingaway.
Carol Sargent (32:37):
We're having arguments about AI. I'm sure
that other people are too.Fruitful positive ones, but
we're trying to figure it out.Other people are trying to
figure out. And one of thethings that we keep coming back
to is that emotional quotientwill always matter.
You know, those soft skills,they're they're not in fashion.
Again, they've never leftfashion. Right? So a good mentor
(33:01):
can help you develop your EQ,your emotional intelligence, and
a good mentee can learn as well.So I just was getting ready to
start venturing my freshmanclass, and I put EQ in the
Amazon search.
50,000 hits. 50,000 differentbooks with that in the title,
emotional intelligence. So ifyou wanna up your EQ, this is
(33:25):
just a wonderful, wonderful wayto do it, and you don't know the
prize at the end of the tunnel.Mhmm. Everybody go out and up
your EQ.
Adam Larson (33:32):
I think that's a great I think that's a great way
to end it, Carol. Thank you somuch. Everybody go out there and
up your EQ and, connect withCher.
Carol Sargent (33:39):
Let's do it. Alright. Well, it's nice to talk
to you.
Announcer (33:45):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
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