December 30, 2025 • 34 mins
Feeling burned out or just running on empty during this Holiday season? In this episode of Count Me In, host Adam Larson sits down with special guest Ting Song, Executive Director for JPMorgan Chase & Co, to talk all things burnout—what it really is, how to spot it early, and what you can do to take back your energy and well-being. Ting shares her personal journey through burnout, the turning points that helped her recover, and actionable advice you can start using right away (including the surprisingly simple power of a 5-minute break).
If you’ve ever wondered about the difference between everyday stress and real burnout, how changing just a few habits can make a huge difference, or how to balance ambition with self-care, this is the episode for you. Ting brings both empathy and expertise, making complex challenges feel relatable and offering practical tips you’ll actually want to try.
Tune in for an honest, uplifting conversation packed with real stories, helpful strategies, and a reminder that it’s okay (and important) to play, have fun, and set boundaries—even in the busiest seasons of life.
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Episode Transcript
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Adam Larson (00:05):
Welcome back to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam
Larson. And for our finalepisode of twenty twenty five,
I'm thrilled to be joined byTing Song, executive director at
JPMorgan Chase and Co. With theholiday season upon us, this
conversation couldn't come at abetter time. For many of us,
it's a chance to rest, recharge,and reflect before heading into
a brand new year.
(00:25):
In today's episode, Ting and Idive deep into the realities of
burnout, what it really means,and how to spot it before it
spirals, and why it's not morethan just everyday stress.
Drawing from her experience inleadership and her own personal
journey, Ting shares practicaladvice on building healthier
habits, recognizing the earlywarning signs, and making room
for play and relaxation duringthe busiest times. So if you're
(00:49):
feeling stretched thin at theend of the year or simply want
to start 2026 with more energyand renewed focus, this episode
is packed with tips andstrategies to support yourself
and your team. So take a momentand pause with us, and let's
wrap up the year by investing inyour well-being. Let's get
started.
(01:11):
Well, Ting, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast. I'm
very excited to be talking aboutburnout. And I think what we
could start with is maybe alittle bit about your story.
What kinda drew you to focus onburnout as a topic?
Ting Song (01:22):
I'm very passionate about this topic. I experienced
myself, and I have friends andcolleagues and everybody I've
seen. They experience this somuch these days. So that's why I
think it's so important for meto talk about it because I want
people to be aware of it. It'shappening.
It's happening around almostevery single people these days.
Adam Larson (01:42):
So have you experienced it personally? Mhmm.
And what was that like?
Ting Song (01:46):
It's not great. You know? Because, you know, I never
experienced when I first startedmy career. It was you know, I
think I can get everything done.You know, I'm the purse I'm the
hard worker.
I'm you know, I had good gradesin school, so I never saw it
will be something, you know, Iwould experience in my life. But
then later on, you know, afteryears and years working, I
started to realize I can't workthe same way I was working when
(02:09):
I was younger. You know youknow, my energy that was just
not there, and, you know, itjust I can't do this years and
after years. And then that'swhen I started to realize maybe
there's something wrong. So I,you know, I started to ask
people.
I go to different retreats. I doyoga personally. So I do
different things and just try totry to explore, you know, what's
(02:30):
going on because I'm just tiredall the time. And then I, you
know, when I start to go to ayoga retreat, that's when I
start to learn about, you know,that's probably is burnout. And
and then I started seeing sometherapists, which really helped
me to understand, you know, thisis something every oh, it's very
common these days because peoplework so much.
(02:51):
And that's when I decided, okay.I need to make a change because
I think that the first thing isto be aware what's going on.
Once you're aware and then youhad to work to make a change. So
that's why I think it's veryimportant. And then because I
have achieved so muchimprovements in my own, you
know, well-being, so that's whyI think I should share this with
other people so people peoplecan learn from me or just learn
(03:13):
from whatever else that outthere.
Adam Larson (03:15):
So what what you're describing can some would
describe as maybe everydaystress. So maybe we can take a
step back and define, like,burnout in contrast to maybe
everyday stress, and maybe whatare some key differences that
people should be looking for?
Ting Song (03:28):
I think stress is more temporary. It's short term.
It's always your reaction to acertain certain scenario, but
burnout is more long term. So Ithink one thing is that if you
don't manage stress very well oryou don't manage it at all, it
will eventually turn intoburnout. And then that at that
time, it's very difficult toreverse back.
(03:50):
Then you're gonna you'll beexperience a long term burning
out period, and it's really,really it will take a lot of
work in order for you toreverse. And then that's why I
think it's very important foryou to discover the signs of
stress and then you can, youknow, start to manage the stress
(04:10):
and before it actually turn intoa burnout situation. Yeah. I
think some symptoms you can see,from stress, I think it's very
important that you're aware ofthese when they have stars.
Symptoms such as have troublesleeping, I think that's a big
one.
(04:31):
You know, if you don't you arethe person who are typically
very healthy, you don't get sickthat often, and all of a sudden,
you get sick, you know, everymonth. And then that's
something, you know, you can seeis probably because of stress or
even burnout. Some other symptomis like, okay. You when there's
a scenario, when there's asituation in your face and then
(04:52):
you breathe very fast or youhave heartbeat, like fast
heartbeats, or you just start toforget about things. And people
always think, oh, because we'regetting old, that's why I start
to forget about things.
But, actually, that's not true.A lot of times, it's because of
stress, you start to forgetabout things. So those are those
are small signs I think you canmanage on a daily basis. And if
(05:13):
happens to you, you can juststart to, you know, take a pause
and think, okay. I need to takea break because I'm stressed.
Because you have to know, like,when you are stressed. If you
know when you're stressed, youcan stop. I think that's very
important.
Adam Larson (05:27):
Mhmm. Yeah. So you you have to kinda recognize
stress because what you'resaying is stress kinda turns
into burnout?
Ting Song (05:34):
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it turns into a burnout if
you don't manage. And it'salways after it's not like one
day, you know, overnight, yourstress will turn into a burnout.
It always takes years and years,and people only start to be
aware of that after it turns outto be a burnout. And at that
time, you just feel like youcan't even go back to work
anymore or you take you know, ifyou take a vacation and you take
(05:57):
a week and you come back, youstill feel tired. That means you
are burned out. Yeah. But thenpeople only realize that, you
know, when you are actuallyburned out.
And I think one thing also Ifeel like I always tell people
is that I feel like everybodyneeds a therapist. No matter,
you know, no matter you feelgreat or not feeling great, I
think it's very important. Thisis just like a workout. You
know? You you go to the gymbecause you wanna be healthy.
(06:20):
So you go to a therapist so youcan stay mentally healthy. So
it's almost the same thing.There's nothing to be scared
about it or ashamed about it.These days, I think it's very
common, especially, you know, intoday's world with all these
crazy things happening. It'sjust very common that we have
some sort of stress and seeing atherapist and having a therapist
that fits your style, it'salways very important.
Adam Larson (06:43):
Cool. I like those. Mean, I those are some good
practical advice. Do you haveany maybe some real world
examples of burnout that you canshare that you've seen, maybe
experienced? I mean, I know thatI've been very close to burnout
a number of times in my life,and it took a while to get out
of that.
You know? And then maybe we cantalk a little bit about some of
the experiences we've seen andkind of help share people
connect to to this.
Ting Song (07:04):
Yeah. I mean, I have friends, you know, like, you
know, I work with or people Iknow in the past. You know, they
are so so there's a one example.Like, I have a friend. You know,
one day, I think there's no noreason all of a sudden.
He couldn't move his thumbanymore, And then he has to go
(07:26):
to the hospital, and then it'sjust hard to diagnose any
reasons. Because when you areburned out, you know, some sort
of your body like, physically,there's probably some reactions,
but you couldn't be diagnosed.And then that's usually caused
by either stress or burnout orsome other emotional or mental
(07:46):
issues. But because you can'thave diagnosed, so it's not
physical. But but but if youdon't treat it, then it become
physical from a mental, whichyou don't you can't diagnose and
then become a physical, whichyou're able to diagnose.
That so that's why things youknow, that's how people get
sick. Most sickness is comingfrom something mental and then
(08:10):
coming and then transitionbecause we don't treat it. And
then they transition intosomething physical. And if we
don't even treat it at thatpoint, it transitions to
something even more seriousphysically. And so that's how it
usually works.
Daughters can treat the patient.They can treat the symptoms, and
they can treat the physicalproblems, but they cannot treat
the mental problem. And then whocan treat the mental problem?
(08:33):
It's ourself. Like, we're theonly one that can control
ourself.
I, you know, I work with so manypeople. They're trying to
control every single thingthat's happening. But I think
people need to be realized thatyou can only control yourself.
Apart from yourself, you cannotcontrol anything. And then
because you are trying tocontrol the things you cannot
(08:53):
control, and that's why you'reso stressed.
I mean, it's one of the causesof stress. It's not every you
know, it it's there's othercauses of stress as well. But
this is one of the common causesthat you're trying to control
everything at work or your yourlife because you think it should
happen a certain way. So it'smore about changing your
(09:14):
mindset, how you perceive, youknow, what's going on and, you
know, everything has two sides.You know, there's always a
positive side as well as anegative side, and they just how
you see it.
And then once you can see it ina positive side, you are not
feeling any burnout or stress ordepression and, you know,
(09:38):
always, like, stress, anxiety,depression, burnout. These all
come together. It doesn't justcome fun. You know? It doesn't
just like, oh, it's just stress.
No. There's always some otherthings come together. It's all
these negative emotions thatyou're dealing with.
Adam Larson (09:53):
So what would you say to, like, the skeptic who's
like, well, that sounds great.I'll just change my thoughts and
everything will be fine. Youknow, that that's it sounds too
good to be true. And so maybe wecan talk a little bit about,
like, you know, some tangiblethings because it it's more than
just like, hey. I'm gonna changemy thoughts, and now my thoughts
are good, so I'm all better now.
And that that's not really howit works.
Ting Song (10:11):
I I I agree. It takes takes practice. You know? It's
habit change. It typically saysit takes twenty one days change
a habit if you do it everysingle day.
So it's not something you canchange overnight, but I think
step one is always be theawareness. The first Mhmm. You
have to be aware. You know? Themoments that cause you stress,
(10:33):
you know, under what situations.
It could be, oh, because thetime is not enough. So your
stress is coming from limitationof the time. Or it could be the
volume or the volume work is toohigh, so that's the cause of
stress. Or it could be theenvironment, the people you work
with who are not the best peopleor they're not the most relaxed
(10:56):
people or positive people towork with. So I think it's very
important to identify what isthe cause of the stress.
Once you can identify, you hadto practice moment by moment,
which means, you know, it's amental habit, so it comes and
goes. And then the more youallow it, it comes more. You
(11:17):
know? Probably during the day,you know, some days, you're
probably more stressed thanother days. Sometimes it's
because you didn't sleep well,because you didn't eat well.
Physical and mental health isalways go hand in hand. So if
you're eating well, you usuallyhave a more clear mind. So
certain days, are just moremoody and other things happen in
your life. So that day, youprobably have more stress, and
(11:39):
then you need to notify that.Note notice that when it's
happening and then identify,like, moment by moment.
Once the thoughts come to you,and that's when you start you
had to start to tell yourself,okay. This is not right.
Adam Larson (11:52):
Mhmm.
Ting Song (11:54):
Start small. You start from very small, and then
you implement again and againand repeat again and again. And
they're always going back andforth. A lot of times, you know,
we think things are black andwhite. Either it's you are good
or not good.
But in the real world, it'salways in between. It's in the
(12:14):
gray area. So when you changeyour habit, you it always go
back and forth beef you know,between good and bad, good and
bad. And then you can start tonotice. You go if you work hard
on your habits, you're changingthe habits.
You start to notice thefrequency of good. It become
more and more. So it's actuallyslowly shifting in a different
(12:39):
direction. So that's when youstart to notice the change.
Mhmm.
But there's always days that aregonna coming back. They're gonna
come back to exactly where youstart. You need to be not be dis
discouraged. You know you'restill doing well. Although it
seems you go back to the sameplace, but it is not exactly the
same place.
Adam Larson (12:59):
Mhmm.
Ting Song (12:59):
Like a a shape of a sparrow. You know? It's always
like this and this. It's go bygoing into the same direction,
the direction you're workingtowards.
Adam Larson (13:09):
I like that. You know? Because it's I think a lot
of times, people will kind ofhear you say, you know, change
your mindset, change yourthought patterns, and not really
recognizing like, hey. It's aprocess. It takes time to kind
of undo habits that have causedstress in your life, and you
have to undo those habits inorder to get to a place where
you're that's not happeninganymore.
And that takes time because youcan't always just change
(13:31):
everything that you're doing atwork on the drop of a hat. You
can't always put boundariesaround things that are causing
you stress. Those think you haveto balance it and and and it
looks different for each person.And I think a lot of times
people try to fit everything inone cookie cutter thing and
every person's journey isdifferent and what works for you
may not work for me. And I canfind what works for me in order
to make that work.
Ting Song (13:51):
Yeah. Exactly. You can't just you can't check the
boxes because it's different foreverybody and different scenario
for even one person every day sothat you have to really put a
set aside energy or, you know,just time to manage, you know,
those process. Like, oh, if wedetermine, okay. I'm gonna start
(14:12):
to change my habits.
So every day, you had todesignate a certain amount of
time and energy to work on thathabits and day by day. And
that's you know, you you'regonna make some progress. It's
not going to be okay. I gave youa prescription. I will take it
every day.
Is it gonna work? It's not likethat. You had to make shift. You
(14:32):
know? Today, you're working ondifferent things, and tomorrow,
you change direction.
You notice the change inyourself, and then you change
your strategy according to whatyou change your in your body. So
it change every day. So you putyou had to put enough energy in
doing this. Like, I would say,like, managing the process. It's
not just, like, going throughthe process.
Adam Larson (14:54):
Yeah. So we've talked talked a little bit about
this, but I wanted to maybereally focus on, you know, are
there early warning signs ofburnout that you've seen that
people should like, that theysometimes miss or ignore that
they should be looking out forif they're saying, am I am I
almost in burnout? Am I inburnout?
Ting Song (15:10):
Yeah. I think some signs, for example, if you have
trouble sleeping, sleeping is avery important thing. I I think
you should at least sleepbetween seven to eight hours.
And Yeah. I think study showswomen needs more sleep than men,
typically by one hour more.
But it varies. Everybody isdifferent. So I can't really
say, okay. You had to sleep howmany hours a day. But you feel
(15:32):
if you ever feel like you havetrouble falling asleep, and it
become more consistent, like,you know, it's not just one day
or it's always always, thenthat's the early sign.
One of the biggest cause of lossof sleep is actually mental.
It's not yeah. A lot of peoplethink, you know, it's because of
(15:52):
other things, but it's actuallybecause you think too much.
Adam Larson (15:56):
Yeah.
Ting Song (15:57):
Yeah. And then that's why, usually, sleep is one of
the very early sign of yourstressed or your burnout. And
then some other people, theymight experience, for example,
you know, they dramatically puton weight or lost weight because
they their habitat appetitechanges because of the stress.
(16:18):
It is something gonna affectyour body, you know, physically
or you can't eat well or youdon't wanna eat or or you just
don't. Sometimes, I thinkanother example is that you
don't feel whatever you do, youdon't feel like you're
interested in doing thatanymore.
Yeah. It it it happens. Youknow, if you lost interest on
(16:40):
the things you always interestedin, I think it is a sign you
need to look at it, why ithappened.
Adam Larson (16:48):
Yeah.
Ting Song (16:49):
Yeah. And then I think some other signs, like,
for example, you forget aboutthings. You know? I always had a
good memory until one point Irealized, okay. I I have to have
a calendar for me to remembereverything.
And before, it wasn't like thatbecause I start to be stressed
and burning out. I start toforget about things. I think
that's a very big sign as well.I think other signs, it just
(17:12):
stress gonna impact yourpersonal life. If you start to
think, you start to realize thepeople around you probably is
all stressed, or you start tobe, you know, be more connected
with people that experience, youknow, like, burnout or stress,
(17:34):
that's because you're actuallyburned out and stressed.
Sometimes you have to putyourself in the environment of
people who are happy or positivebecause energy pass on. Stress
pass on the other way around.You know? Positive energy pass
around as well. I always Iactually took a workshop, I
(17:56):
think a while ago.
They talk about play. Kids liketo play. That's why they're so
happy. Adults Yeah. Us.
We don't play. That's why, youknow, we're always stressed, and
we're not happy about our life.But if you get if we treat every
single thing in our life as playa game, even if you've been
through exactly the same thing,you might be much happier than,
(18:22):
you know, just just treating itas a task or something you have
to finish.
Adam Larson (18:29):
And that's probably why the there's been the rise of
adult in adult learning, thegamification of elements, and
the gamification of things thatare dealing with adults because
we're also stressed and we'reall doing tasks all the time.
Making something gamified helpsus learn it and helps us get out
of that monotony of of trying tolearn new things.
Ting Song (18:47):
Yeah. And then when you play games, you are so
competitive and you wanna win,and you never feel like you're
tired or stressed, but you'reputting the best energy and best
clear the best mind out there towin the game.
Adam Larson (18:59):
Yeah. I like that. So we talked a little bit about
we talked about, like, changinghabits and some things we can do
to kinda help avoid the stressesthat cause burnout. But, you
know, are there challenges thatlike, what are some big what are
some of the biggest challengesthat people face when they're
trying to recover from burnoutthat you've seen?
Ting Song (19:16):
My personal sorry. You are a little bit cut off.
Could you repeat the questionagain?
Adam Larson (19:20):
No problem. Sorry. Yeah. That's okay.
Ting Song (19:22):
Uh-huh. Maybe it's my Internet. I
Adam Larson (19:24):
don't know. That's okay.
Ting Song (19:25):
Yeah. Sometimes it happens. It's too hot outside,
so the network is burning out aswell.
Adam Larson (19:31):
Jeez. Yeah. It's funny. Over here in New York,
it's like, it's only, like, noteven 60 degrees Fahrenheit today
that it was a cool it's a coolday. It's really weird.
Ting Song (19:39):
Yeah. That's pretty cool.
Adam Larson (19:41):
Yeah. Alright. Let's see. What was I saying?
Oh, oh, I know.
Okay. Yeah. So we talked wetalked a bit about some
actionable strategies, somethings that people can do to
kinda get out of burnout to tokinda help reduce some of the
stresses that take hold thatcause the burnout. But from your
experience, what are some of thebiggest challenges that people
face when trying to recover fromburnout or even admit that
(20:04):
they're burned out? Because I'mthat's a problem too that people
don't want to admit, hey.
I actually have a problem.
Ting Song (20:09):
Yeah. Exactly. I think most people the biggest
challenge for people is becausethey they are not aware of.
They're stressed. They're notaware of their burning out.
They just keep going. Because ifyou're in a moment of doing
something, you don't think toomuch. You just think, oh, I need
to get it done. I need to get itdone. You do it day by day.
You don't realize there's ashift than, you know, mental
(20:30):
shift. So I think the mostimportant thing at first is to
be aware that this is happening,and this is common. You have to
admit it, and then you can startto allocate time and energy to
manage it. Yeah. And it's noteasy.
I mean, because everybody, youknow, is burning out.
(20:53):
Everybody's stressed, and thenworking in the environment of
everybody's burned out andstressed is not easy if you
wanna recover from that. So youdo have to have a game plan, a
game plan that, you know,requires time, energy. And I
always tell people, have atherapist or coach just to be
able to help you through theprocess. You need to get a need
(21:13):
to get one that fits your style.
Not every professional, notevery therapist works. You know,
you can face your style. So youhad to find somebody that fits
your style. And then you havethe tool. You have to have the
tool, the time and energy, andthe determination.
(21:33):
Mhmm. But I think it's reallyimportant that you have the time
because if you work eighty hoursa week, a hundred hours a week,
it's really hard. The rest ofthe time you have, I'm pretty
sure you'll just sleep or eat ordo whatever is needed to do.
Then so the first thing you needto look at if you have enough
(21:55):
time it doesn't have to be along period of time, but it has
to be often, like, thefrequency. Mhmm.
Set alarm to yourself, forexample, like, a couple time a
day. Every time you have a fiveminutes break is not a long
time, but you can step outside.You know? Just five minutes if
you can, or just go to thebathroom or take drink some
(22:18):
water, just walk around a littlebit. And I think that's very
helpful.
So you do have to set aside atime and change the habit. I
always feel like in order tocombat combat combat, In order
to fight with what's the bestword? In order to manage the
negative energy, like, negativenegative styles, like stress and
depression, anxiety, you woulddo something totally opposite,
(22:42):
such as play, have fun, youknow, have a hobby, you know,
see just talk spend time withsomebody that you like. You
know, you have to really playand have fun. I think that's
very important.
Relax is good, but the bestthing is having fun.
Adam Larson (23:00):
Yeah.
Ting Song (23:00):
Having fun is yeah. It's like I like that. Yeah. If
you do, like, negative negative,you need to do positive
positive. And having fun ispositive positive.
Relax can make it better, butthen you really need to be
having fun.
Adam Larson (23:17):
Yeah. I really like that. I like that attitude and
and remembering that it's okayto play. Remember, it's okay to
have fun. It's okay to laugh.
It's okay to kind of get out ofour heads. And so in that vein,
are there like, when we thinkabout organizations and leaders,
and I'm sure there's peoplelistening to this thinking, you
know, are people in my teamburnt out? You know, are there
ways that we can better supportour team, our team members, and
(23:39):
our teams to help reduce burnoutrisk? And sometimes we're in
high pressure environments, andthere's a lot of stress in high
pressure environments. And weall know we've established that
high stress and long term stressleads to burnout.
So how can organizations helpsupport their teams better?
Ting Song (23:54):
I think you need to start from yourself first. Yeah.
Because you can't change otherpeople without changing
yourself. So you change yourselffirst if you can be a happy
person, relaxed person, and thatcan slowly maybe impact with the
people you work with. Maybe theyjust not aware or they never
(24:15):
have the tools and are told oreducated, you know, or
facilitated or just they theynever really learn about how to
manage this.
So it's not like they don'twanna do it. It's more about
they might not know how to doit. So once you can show them as
example and then you can slowlyimpact them and maybe even teach
(24:37):
them about it, and they canstart to learn and do
themselves. It's like the energypass around. If you have two
people, you might be able toimpact four people.
And then you have four people,you can might be impact more.
But it is not easy. You know?There's always organization
culture. So if you're not in theposition of changing the
(24:58):
culture, you might not be ableto change, you know, everything,
but you can at least changeyourself.
And I think it's very important.The more you change yourself,
you can show other people asexample. It's also a boundary
setting settings. You need toset a boundary for to protect
your energy. Right?
(25:19):
So sometimes maybe you're theonly person that you're happy,
but not everybody else is happy,but you you have to really stay
in that environment because it'syour work or something. So you
do need to set your boundariessomehow so that you don't get
impact by them either. So it is,like, a process you might need
(25:42):
to work on yourself and slowlyimpact other people. But,
meanwhile, you should not beimpacted by other people if they
have a negative energy. Andthat's why it always take time,
energy to manage and monitor.
And trust me, good things happenwhen you're happy. Or good
(26:04):
things happen, you know, whenyou're really working on
yourself and trying to impactother people. The universe, they
have an energy they can passaround. You always notice I
don't know. People alwaysthere's a saying like, oh, when
something going wrong, there'salways something else going
around.
Right? It's always channelreaction. It's the same same
(26:26):
theory when you're havingsomething good happen. It's
another good thing that alwayshappen at the same time. It's
always a channel reaction.
So sometimes you don't know howyou can change it, but at least
you can start from yourself. AndMhmm. And then you can slowly
impact other people, and thenmaybe good things will happen.
(26:46):
There are gonna be more peopleimpacted. Yeah.
So it is a process. And that'swhy I think it's always about,
you know, understand yourself,understand your boundaries,
understand what make youstressed, what make you relax,
you know, what is more importantfor you. If this is not a right
environment, for example, ifyou're working under a toxic
environment, then you might needto leave. So you have to make
(27:10):
the best judgment what is whatis right, what is wrong. Right?
People, if this is not a goodenvironment, everybody knows
about it. There is gonna besomething happening soon. Trust
me. Yeah. Because yeah.
Because that's just how thingsusually work. Think I think
there's always I was in thisworkshop, and it's talk about
(27:33):
when you have a high high inyour life, you might next
experience a low low. And thenwhen you have a low low, the
next moment you might experiencea high high. So it's always
going up and down. Mhmm.
Just how you experience
Adam Larson (27:49):
always balance.
Ting Song (27:50):
Yeah. You're always a balance. Yeah.
Adam Larson (27:52):
So when I'm thinking about burnout and I
think about organizations, a lotof times there's, like, this
tension between, you know,personal mental health, self
care kind of stuff, and careerprogression. Because if you look
at society, a lot of times thepeople who work those hundred
twenty hour weeks and, you know,slept in the office and built
these beautiful billion dollarbusinesses, and you think and
(28:15):
you look at what they did tobuild that, and I'm like, I
don't know that I wanna do allthat so I can build a billion
dollar business because I wannaactually sleep and enjoy life.
And so, you know, there's thistension. Is is there a way to to
balance your ambition with selfcare?
Ting Song (28:28):
I think it's a choice.
Adam Larson (28:30):
Okay.
Ting Song (28:32):
If I mean, if you a lot of people people, they're
not happy about their life. Butthere's there's also people, you
know, they work very, hard, ashort period of their time, and
then they're using the rest oftheir life to fix the problem
that was generated from thatshort period of time. So so it's
(28:56):
about, do you want a long termsuccess, or do you want a short
term success? If do you reallywant a lot of money? Is that the
ending goal of your life?
Or you wanna have a fab happylife? It's a I think it's a
personal choice. I always feelyou can achieve a lot in a short
period of time. If you workreally, really hard, which means
(29:19):
my it might be sacrifice yourtime to do any other things or
your personal health orwell-being, but it's not
sustainable. At least it's notsustainable for most people.
It might be happening for somepeople, but for most people,
it's not sustainable.
Adam Larson (29:36):
Yeah.
Ting Song (29:37):
So you can see their short term success. Yeah.
They're very success. But thatwas maybe for many now, like,
ten years, five years, but theyare they really successful at
the end of their life? Right?
It's a marathon. So you alwayswanna, you know, look at the
full picture to see what is youwanna do, your choice, how you
(30:01):
wanna live your life. And then,you know, you might also make
adjustment. You know? Sometimeswhen you're in your twenties,
you make a choice different thanwhat you're doing in your
thirties.
In your forties, it's differentagain. So you make adjustment.
You know? But I think the mostimportant thing is that you have
to understand. You you're youhave to understand yourself, and
(30:26):
everybody is so different.
If you you know, the work theway you work, some people, they
are just good at working longhours, and that's how they can
produce results. Whereas otherpeople, they might have short
you know, they can only focus ashort period of time, but they
(30:48):
generate even better resultswithin a short period of time.
So you have to understand whatis your style. I think most
time, burnout and stress isbecause you're trying to make
your body to do something yourbody doesn't wanna do because
you don't understand your bodyvery well.
Adam Larson (31:06):
Yeah.
Ting Song (31:06):
You in yeah. You're intervene in you intervene the
natural rhythm of your body,which, you know for example, you
body will tell you it's time tosleep, but your in use you tell
yourself, no. I can't sleepbecause I have so many things I
need to think about. So it'syourself telling yourself, okay.
I need to do something that'sagainst my nature.
(31:30):
And that's why it's burnout. Youget burnout. You got stressed
because you're forcing yourselfto do something you're not
naturally able to do. Whereas,you know, some people, they
their body are built differentthan us. They are able to do,
you know, long hours.
Or when they're working, theymight actually taking breaks in
the middle, but you don't seethat. You only see what they
(31:53):
presented to you. You don'treally see what's actually
happening to them. Mhmm. Becauseof that, you know, you think,
oh, they work long hours.
Yeah. Success. You know, theywork hard. They get success. No.
It's not always the truthbecause you don't know the
details. Yes. So I think it'sbecause yeah. We all see, you
know, what's happening from thesurface, and then we think
(32:14):
that's what's gonna happen, butthat might not be.
Adam Larson (32:20):
Yeah. I like that. Yeah. It's it's it's really
hard, and I think sometimes wehear these stories of people,
but you don't see what whattheir day to day was like. You
don't see what they did to maybeavoid burnout as they went built
their careers.
And so you can't makeassumptions that, oh, I have to
work eighty hours a week to tobe successful. You know, a lot
of times with everything that'shappening and all the, different
(32:40):
advances in technology, youknow, we should be working
smarter and and finding ways tocut down the amount of hours
that we need to work to still besuccessful.
Ting Song (32:49):
Exactly. And it's all about, like, if you know what
you're good at. Right? If you'regood at Mhmm. Doing certain
things, you focus on more thanthat.
And then you you'll be able tobe more successful in that area,
and then you don't feel as tiredbecause that's something you're
more talented in. Whereas if youdo something you're are not good
at, even working one hour a daymight make you tired. Yeah. And
(33:11):
that's why
Adam Larson (33:12):
You know? Yeah. I feel like this has been an
amazing conversation talkingabout burnout, and I think we've
covered a lot of differentthings. And I kinda wanna leave
our listeners with, you know,maybe somebody's been listening
to this and they've identified,hey. I I think I am burnt out or
about to be burnt out.
Maybe we can maybe you can wecan kinda end the conversation
by, like, what's one small smallstep that they could start by,
like, kind of, I wanna reclaimmy energy. I wanna reclaim my
(33:34):
well-being. I wanna take a stepin the right direction.
Ting Song (33:38):
I think it from okay. If you can go home and start to
set alarm for yourself to take abreak after one hour of working
for five minutes. Okay. That'sthe first step you can do. It's
very small step.
Just take a five minutes breakevery hour you work. I say
small, but it takes a lot ofenergy or, you know, management
(33:58):
in order to do that. But I thinkit's very important. Just start
to take a break during the day.I think that will be the the
best first step for you to startwith this process.
Adam Larson (34:08):
Yeah. I like that. Well, Ting, it's been an
absolute pleasure having you onthe podcast. Thank you so much
for coming and sharing yourexpertise with our listeners
today.
Ting Song (34:17):
Thank you. Thank you. It's my honor to be here as
well. And it's great chattingwith you, and I'm so happy I can
share all these experiences andadvice to whoever listens here.
Announcer (34:30):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
Welcome back to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam
Larson. And for our finalepisode of twenty twenty five,
I'm thrilled to be joined byTing Song, executive director at
JPMorgan Chase and Co. With theholiday season upon us, this
conversation couldn't come at abetter time. For many of us,
it's a chance to rest, recharge,and reflect before heading into
a brand new year.
(00:25):
In today's episode, Ting and Idive deep into the realities of
burnout, what it really means,and how to spot it before it
spirals, and why it's not morethan just everyday stress.
Drawing from her experience inleadership and her own personal
journey, Ting shares practicaladvice on building healthier
habits, recognizing the earlywarning signs, and making room
for play and relaxation duringthe busiest times. So if you're
(00:49):
feeling stretched thin at theend of the year or simply want
to start 2026 with more energyand renewed focus, this episode
is packed with tips andstrategies to support yourself
and your team. So take a momentand pause with us, and let's
wrap up the year by investing inyour well-being. Let's get
started.
(01:11):
Well, Ting, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast. I'm
very excited to be talking aboutburnout. And I think what we
could start with is maybe alittle bit about your story.
What kinda drew you to focus onburnout as a topic?
Ting Song (01:22):
I'm very passionate about this topic. I experienced
myself, and I have friends andcolleagues and everybody I've
seen. They experience this somuch these days. So that's why I
think it's so important for meto talk about it because I want
people to be aware of it. It'shappening.
It's happening around almostevery single people these days.
Adam Larson (01:42):
So have you experienced it personally? Mhmm.
And what was that like?
Ting Song (01:46):
It's not great. You know? Because, you know, I never
experienced when I first startedmy career. It was you know, I
think I can get everything done.You know, I'm the purse I'm the
hard worker.
I'm you know, I had good gradesin school, so I never saw it
will be something, you know, Iwould experience in my life. But
then later on, you know, afteryears and years working, I
started to realize I can't workthe same way I was working when
(02:09):
I was younger. You know youknow, my energy that was just
not there, and, you know, itjust I can't do this years and
after years. And then that'swhen I started to realize maybe
there's something wrong. So I,you know, I started to ask
people.
I go to different retreats. I doyoga personally. So I do
different things and just try totry to explore, you know, what's
(02:30):
going on because I'm just tiredall the time. And then I, you
know, when I start to go to ayoga retreat, that's when I
start to learn about, you know,that's probably is burnout. And
and then I started seeing sometherapists, which really helped
me to understand, you know, thisis something every oh, it's very
common these days because peoplework so much.
(02:51):
And that's when I decided, okay.I need to make a change because
I think that the first thing isto be aware what's going on.
Once you're aware and then youhad to work to make a change. So
that's why I think it's veryimportant. And then because I
have achieved so muchimprovements in my own, you
know, well-being, so that's whyI think I should share this with
other people so people peoplecan learn from me or just learn
(03:13):
from whatever else that outthere.
Adam Larson (03:15):
So what what you're describing can some would
describe as maybe everydaystress. So maybe we can take a
step back and define, like,burnout in contrast to maybe
everyday stress, and maybe whatare some key differences that
people should be looking for?
Ting Song (03:28):
I think stress is more temporary. It's short term.
It's always your reaction to acertain certain scenario, but
burnout is more long term. So Ithink one thing is that if you
don't manage stress very well oryou don't manage it at all, it
will eventually turn intoburnout. And then that at that
time, it's very difficult toreverse back.
(03:50):
Then you're gonna you'll beexperience a long term burning
out period, and it's really,really it will take a lot of
work in order for you toreverse. And then that's why I
think it's very important foryou to discover the signs of
stress and then you can, youknow, start to manage the stress
(04:10):
and before it actually turn intoa burnout situation. Yeah. I
think some symptoms you can see,from stress, I think it's very
important that you're aware ofthese when they have stars.
Symptoms such as have troublesleeping, I think that's a big
one.
(04:31):
You know, if you don't you arethe person who are typically
very healthy, you don't get sickthat often, and all of a sudden,
you get sick, you know, everymonth. And then that's
something, you know, you can seeis probably because of stress or
even burnout. Some other symptomis like, okay. You when there's
a scenario, when there's asituation in your face and then
(04:52):
you breathe very fast or youhave heartbeat, like fast
heartbeats, or you just start toforget about things. And people
always think, oh, because we'regetting old, that's why I start
to forget about things.
But, actually, that's not true.A lot of times, it's because of
stress, you start to forgetabout things. So those are those
are small signs I think you canmanage on a daily basis. And if
(05:13):
happens to you, you can juststart to, you know, take a pause
and think, okay. I need to takea break because I'm stressed.
Because you have to know, like,when you are stressed. If you
know when you're stressed, youcan stop. I think that's very
important.
Adam Larson (05:27):
Mhmm. Yeah. So you you have to kinda recognize
stress because what you'resaying is stress kinda turns
into burnout?
Ting Song (05:34):
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it turns into a burnout if
you don't manage. And it'salways after it's not like one
day, you know, overnight, yourstress will turn into a burnout.
It always takes years and years,and people only start to be
aware of that after it turns outto be a burnout. And at that
time, you just feel like youcan't even go back to work
anymore or you take you know, ifyou take a vacation and you take
(05:57):
a week and you come back, youstill feel tired. That means you
are burned out. Yeah. But thenpeople only realize that, you
know, when you are actuallyburned out.
And I think one thing also Ifeel like I always tell people
is that I feel like everybodyneeds a therapist. No matter,
you know, no matter you feelgreat or not feeling great, I
think it's very important. Thisis just like a workout. You
know? You you go to the gymbecause you wanna be healthy.
(06:20):
So you go to a therapist so youcan stay mentally healthy. So
it's almost the same thing.There's nothing to be scared
about it or ashamed about it.These days, I think it's very
common, especially, you know, intoday's world with all these
crazy things happening. It'sjust very common that we have
some sort of stress and seeing atherapist and having a therapist
that fits your style, it'salways very important.
Adam Larson (06:43):
Cool. I like those. Mean, I those are some good
practical advice. Do you haveany maybe some real world
examples of burnout that you canshare that you've seen, maybe
experienced? I mean, I know thatI've been very close to burnout
a number of times in my life,and it took a while to get out
of that.
You know? And then maybe we cantalk a little bit about some of
the experiences we've seen andkind of help share people
connect to to this.
Ting Song (07:04):
Yeah. I mean, I have friends, you know, like, you
know, I work with or people Iknow in the past. You know, they
are so so there's a one example.Like, I have a friend. You know,
one day, I think there's no noreason all of a sudden.
He couldn't move his thumbanymore, And then he has to go
(07:26):
to the hospital, and then it'sjust hard to diagnose any
reasons. Because when you areburned out, you know, some sort
of your body like, physically,there's probably some reactions,
but you couldn't be diagnosed.And then that's usually caused
by either stress or burnout orsome other emotional or mental
(07:46):
issues. But because you can'thave diagnosed, so it's not
physical. But but but if youdon't treat it, then it become
physical from a mental, whichyou don't you can't diagnose and
then become a physical, whichyou're able to diagnose.
That so that's why things youknow, that's how people get
sick. Most sickness is comingfrom something mental and then
(08:10):
coming and then transitionbecause we don't treat it. And
then they transition intosomething physical. And if we
don't even treat it at thatpoint, it transitions to
something even more seriousphysically. And so that's how it
usually works.
Daughters can treat the patient.They can treat the symptoms, and
they can treat the physicalproblems, but they cannot treat
the mental problem. And then whocan treat the mental problem?
(08:33):
It's ourself. Like, we're theonly one that can control
ourself.
I, you know, I work with so manypeople. They're trying to
control every single thingthat's happening. But I think
people need to be realized thatyou can only control yourself.
Apart from yourself, you cannotcontrol anything. And then
because you are trying tocontrol the things you cannot
(08:53):
control, and that's why you'reso stressed.
I mean, it's one of the causesof stress. It's not every you
know, it it's there's othercauses of stress as well. But
this is one of the common causesthat you're trying to control
everything at work or your yourlife because you think it should
happen a certain way. So it'smore about changing your
(09:14):
mindset, how you perceive, youknow, what's going on and, you
know, everything has two sides.You know, there's always a
positive side as well as anegative side, and they just how
you see it.
And then once you can see it ina positive side, you are not
feeling any burnout or stress ordepression and, you know,
(09:38):
always, like, stress, anxiety,depression, burnout. These all
come together. It doesn't justcome fun. You know? It doesn't
just like, oh, it's just stress.
No. There's always some otherthings come together. It's all
these negative emotions thatyou're dealing with.
Adam Larson (09:53):
So what would you say to, like, the skeptic who's
like, well, that sounds great.I'll just change my thoughts and
everything will be fine. Youknow, that that's it sounds too
good to be true. And so maybe wecan talk a little bit about,
like, you know, some tangiblethings because it it's more than
just like, hey. I'm gonna changemy thoughts, and now my thoughts
are good, so I'm all better now.
And that that's not really howit works.
Ting Song (10:11):
I I I agree. It takes takes practice. You know? It's
habit change. It typically saysit takes twenty one days change
a habit if you do it everysingle day.
So it's not something you canchange overnight, but I think
step one is always be theawareness. The first Mhmm. You
have to be aware. You know? Themoments that cause you stress,
(10:33):
you know, under what situations.
It could be, oh, because thetime is not enough. So your
stress is coming from limitationof the time. Or it could be the
volume or the volume work is toohigh, so that's the cause of
stress. Or it could be theenvironment, the people you work
with who are not the best peopleor they're not the most relaxed
(10:56):
people or positive people towork with. So I think it's very
important to identify what isthe cause of the stress.
Once you can identify, you hadto practice moment by moment,
which means, you know, it's amental habit, so it comes and
goes. And then the more youallow it, it comes more. You
(11:17):
know? Probably during the day,you know, some days, you're
probably more stressed thanother days. Sometimes it's
because you didn't sleep well,because you didn't eat well.
Physical and mental health isalways go hand in hand. So if
you're eating well, you usuallyhave a more clear mind. So
certain days, are just moremoody and other things happen in
your life. So that day, youprobably have more stress, and
(11:39):
then you need to notify that.Note notice that when it's
happening and then identify,like, moment by moment.
Once the thoughts come to you,and that's when you start you
had to start to tell yourself,okay. This is not right.
Adam Larson (11:52):
Mhmm.
Ting Song (11:54):
Start small. You start from very small, and then
you implement again and againand repeat again and again. And
they're always going back andforth. A lot of times, you know,
we think things are black andwhite. Either it's you are good
or not good.
But in the real world, it'salways in between. It's in the
(12:14):
gray area. So when you changeyour habit, you it always go
back and forth beef you know,between good and bad, good and
bad. And then you can start tonotice. You go if you work hard
on your habits, you're changingthe habits.
You start to notice thefrequency of good. It become
more and more. So it's actuallyslowly shifting in a different
(12:39):
direction. So that's when youstart to notice the change.
Mhmm.
But there's always days that aregonna coming back. They're gonna
come back to exactly where youstart. You need to be not be dis
discouraged. You know you'restill doing well. Although it
seems you go back to the sameplace, but it is not exactly the
same place.
Adam Larson (12:59):
Mhmm.
Ting Song (12:59):
Like a a shape of a sparrow. You know? It's always
like this and this. It's go bygoing into the same direction,
the direction you're workingtowards.
Adam Larson (13:09):
I like that. You know? Because it's I think a lot
of times, people will kind ofhear you say, you know, change
your mindset, change yourthought patterns, and not really
recognizing like, hey. It's aprocess. It takes time to kind
of undo habits that have causedstress in your life, and you
have to undo those habits inorder to get to a place where
you're that's not happeninganymore.
And that takes time because youcan't always just change
(13:31):
everything that you're doing atwork on the drop of a hat. You
can't always put boundariesaround things that are causing
you stress. Those think you haveto balance it and and and it
looks different for each person.And I think a lot of times
people try to fit everything inone cookie cutter thing and
every person's journey isdifferent and what works for you
may not work for me. And I canfind what works for me in order
to make that work.
Ting Song (13:51):
Yeah. Exactly. You can't just you can't check the
boxes because it's different foreverybody and different scenario
for even one person every day sothat you have to really put a
set aside energy or, you know,just time to manage, you know,
those process. Like, oh, if wedetermine, okay. I'm gonna start
(14:12):
to change my habits.
So every day, you had todesignate a certain amount of
time and energy to work on thathabits and day by day. And
that's you know, you you'regonna make some progress. It's
not going to be okay. I gave youa prescription. I will take it
every day.
Is it gonna work? It's not likethat. You had to make shift. You
(14:32):
know? Today, you're working ondifferent things, and tomorrow,
you change direction.
You notice the change inyourself, and then you change
your strategy according to whatyou change your in your body. So
it change every day. So you putyou had to put enough energy in
doing this. Like, I would say,like, managing the process. It's
not just, like, going throughthe process.
Adam Larson (14:54):
Yeah. So we've talked talked a little bit about
this, but I wanted to maybereally focus on, you know, are
there early warning signs ofburnout that you've seen that
people should like, that theysometimes miss or ignore that
they should be looking out forif they're saying, am I am I
almost in burnout? Am I inburnout?
Ting Song (15:10):
Yeah. I think some signs, for example, if you have
trouble sleeping, sleeping is avery important thing. I I think
you should at least sleepbetween seven to eight hours.
And Yeah. I think study showswomen needs more sleep than men,
typically by one hour more.
But it varies. Everybody isdifferent. So I can't really
say, okay. You had to sleep howmany hours a day. But you feel
(15:32):
if you ever feel like you havetrouble falling asleep, and it
become more consistent, like,you know, it's not just one day
or it's always always, thenthat's the early sign.
One of the biggest cause of lossof sleep is actually mental.
It's not yeah. A lot of peoplethink, you know, it's because of
(15:52):
other things, but it's actuallybecause you think too much.
Adam Larson (15:56):
Yeah.
Ting Song (15:57):
Yeah. And then that's why, usually, sleep is one of
the very early sign of yourstressed or your burnout. And
then some other people, theymight experience, for example,
you know, they dramatically puton weight or lost weight because
they their habitat appetitechanges because of the stress.
(16:18):
It is something gonna affectyour body, you know, physically
or you can't eat well or youdon't wanna eat or or you just
don't. Sometimes, I thinkanother example is that you
don't feel whatever you do, youdon't feel like you're
interested in doing thatanymore.
Yeah. It it it happens. Youknow, if you lost interest on
(16:40):
the things you always interestedin, I think it is a sign you
need to look at it, why ithappened.
Adam Larson (16:48):
Yeah.
Ting Song (16:49):
Yeah. And then I think some other signs, like,
for example, you forget aboutthings. You know? I always had a
good memory until one point Irealized, okay. I I have to have
a calendar for me to remembereverything.
And before, it wasn't like thatbecause I start to be stressed
and burning out. I start toforget about things. I think
that's a very big sign as well.I think other signs, it just
(17:12):
stress gonna impact yourpersonal life. If you start to
think, you start to realize thepeople around you probably is
all stressed, or you start tobe, you know, be more connected
with people that experience, youknow, like, burnout or stress,
(17:34):
that's because you're actuallyburned out and stressed.
Sometimes you have to putyourself in the environment of
people who are happy or positivebecause energy pass on. Stress
pass on the other way around.You know? Positive energy pass
around as well. I always Iactually took a workshop, I
(17:56):
think a while ago.
They talk about play. Kids liketo play. That's why they're so
happy. Adults Yeah. Us.
We don't play. That's why, youknow, we're always stressed, and
we're not happy about our life.But if you get if we treat every
single thing in our life as playa game, even if you've been
through exactly the same thing,you might be much happier than,
(18:22):
you know, just just treating itas a task or something you have
to finish.
Adam Larson (18:29):
And that's probably why the there's been the rise of
adult in adult learning, thegamification of elements, and
the gamification of things thatare dealing with adults because
we're also stressed and we'reall doing tasks all the time.
Making something gamified helpsus learn it and helps us get out
of that monotony of of trying tolearn new things.
Ting Song (18:47):
Yeah. And then when you play games, you are so
competitive and you wanna win,and you never feel like you're
tired or stressed, but you'reputting the best energy and best
clear the best mind out there towin the game.
Adam Larson (18:59):
Yeah. I like that. So we talked a little bit about
we talked about, like, changinghabits and some things we can do
to kinda help avoid the stressesthat cause burnout. But, you
know, are there challenges thatlike, what are some big what are
some of the biggest challengesthat people face when they're
trying to recover from burnoutthat you've seen?
Ting Song (19:16):
My personal sorry. You are a little bit cut off.
Could you repeat the questionagain?
Adam Larson (19:20):
No problem. Sorry. Yeah. That's okay.
Ting Song (19:22):
Uh-huh. Maybe it's my Internet. I
Adam Larson (19:24):
don't know. That's okay.
Ting Song (19:25):
Yeah. Sometimes it happens. It's too hot outside,
so the network is burning out aswell.
Adam Larson (19:31):
Jeez. Yeah. It's funny. Over here in New York,
it's like, it's only, like, noteven 60 degrees Fahrenheit today
that it was a cool it's a coolday. It's really weird.
Ting Song (19:39):
Yeah. That's pretty cool.
Adam Larson (19:41):
Yeah. Alright. Let's see. What was I saying?
Oh, oh, I know.
Okay. Yeah. So we talked wetalked a bit about some
actionable strategies, somethings that people can do to
kinda get out of burnout to tokinda help reduce some of the
stresses that take hold thatcause the burnout. But from your
experience, what are some of thebiggest challenges that people
face when trying to recover fromburnout or even admit that
(20:04):
they're burned out? Because I'mthat's a problem too that people
don't want to admit, hey.
I actually have a problem.
Ting Song (20:09):
Yeah. Exactly. I think most people the biggest
challenge for people is becausethey they are not aware of.
They're stressed. They're notaware of their burning out.
They just keep going. Because ifyou're in a moment of doing
something, you don't think toomuch. You just think, oh, I need
to get it done. I need to get itdone. You do it day by day.
You don't realize there's ashift than, you know, mental
(20:30):
shift. So I think the mostimportant thing at first is to
be aware that this is happening,and this is common. You have to
admit it, and then you can startto allocate time and energy to
manage it. Yeah. And it's noteasy.
I mean, because everybody, youknow, is burning out.
(20:53):
Everybody's stressed, and thenworking in the environment of
everybody's burned out andstressed is not easy if you
wanna recover from that. So youdo have to have a game plan, a
game plan that, you know,requires time, energy. And I
always tell people, have atherapist or coach just to be
able to help you through theprocess. You need to get a need
(21:13):
to get one that fits your style.
Not every professional, notevery therapist works. You know,
you can face your style. So youhad to find somebody that fits
your style. And then you havethe tool. You have to have the
tool, the time and energy, andthe determination.
(21:33):
Mhmm. But I think it's reallyimportant that you have the time
because if you work eighty hoursa week, a hundred hours a week,
it's really hard. The rest ofthe time you have, I'm pretty
sure you'll just sleep or eat ordo whatever is needed to do.
Then so the first thing you needto look at if you have enough
(21:55):
time it doesn't have to be along period of time, but it has
to be often, like, thefrequency. Mhmm.
Set alarm to yourself, forexample, like, a couple time a
day. Every time you have a fiveminutes break is not a long
time, but you can step outside.You know? Just five minutes if
you can, or just go to thebathroom or take drink some
(22:18):
water, just walk around a littlebit. And I think that's very
helpful.
So you do have to set aside atime and change the habit. I
always feel like in order tocombat combat combat, In order
to fight with what's the bestword? In order to manage the
negative energy, like, negativenegative styles, like stress and
depression, anxiety, you woulddo something totally opposite,
(22:42):
such as play, have fun, youknow, have a hobby, you know,
see just talk spend time withsomebody that you like. You
know, you have to really playand have fun. I think that's
very important.
Relax is good, but the bestthing is having fun.
Adam Larson (23:00):
Yeah.
Ting Song (23:00):
Having fun is yeah. It's like I like that. Yeah. If
you do, like, negative negative,you need to do positive
positive. And having fun ispositive positive.
Relax can make it better, butthen you really need to be
having fun.
Adam Larson (23:17):
Yeah. I really like that. I like that attitude and
and remembering that it's okayto play. Remember, it's okay to
have fun. It's okay to laugh.
It's okay to kind of get out ofour heads. And so in that vein,
are there like, when we thinkabout organizations and leaders,
and I'm sure there's peoplelistening to this thinking, you
know, are people in my teamburnt out? You know, are there
ways that we can better supportour team, our team members, and
(23:39):
our teams to help reduce burnoutrisk? And sometimes we're in
high pressure environments, andthere's a lot of stress in high
pressure environments. And weall know we've established that
high stress and long term stressleads to burnout.
So how can organizations helpsupport their teams better?
Ting Song (23:54):
I think you need to start from yourself first. Yeah.
Because you can't change otherpeople without changing
yourself. So you change yourselffirst if you can be a happy
person, relaxed person, and thatcan slowly maybe impact with the
people you work with. Maybe theyjust not aware or they never
(24:15):
have the tools and are told oreducated, you know, or
facilitated or just they theynever really learn about how to
manage this.
So it's not like they don'twanna do it. It's more about
they might not know how to doit. So once you can show them as
example and then you can slowlyimpact them and maybe even teach
(24:37):
them about it, and they canstart to learn and do
themselves. It's like the energypass around. If you have two
people, you might be able toimpact four people.
And then you have four people,you can might be impact more.
But it is not easy. You know?There's always organization
culture. So if you're not in theposition of changing the
(24:58):
culture, you might not be ableto change, you know, everything,
but you can at least changeyourself.
And I think it's very important.The more you change yourself,
you can show other people asexample. It's also a boundary
setting settings. You need toset a boundary for to protect
your energy. Right?
(25:19):
So sometimes maybe you're theonly person that you're happy,
but not everybody else is happy,but you you have to really stay
in that environment because it'syour work or something. So you
do need to set your boundariessomehow so that you don't get
impact by them either. So it is,like, a process you might need
(25:42):
to work on yourself and slowlyimpact other people. But,
meanwhile, you should not beimpacted by other people if they
have a negative energy. Andthat's why it always take time,
energy to manage and monitor.
And trust me, good things happenwhen you're happy. Or good
(26:04):
things happen, you know, whenyou're really working on
yourself and trying to impactother people. The universe, they
have an energy they can passaround. You always notice I
don't know. People alwaysthere's a saying like, oh, when
something going wrong, there'salways something else going
around.
Right? It's always channelreaction. It's the same same
(26:26):
theory when you're havingsomething good happen. It's
another good thing that alwayshappen at the same time. It's
always a channel reaction.
So sometimes you don't know howyou can change it, but at least
you can start from yourself. AndMhmm. And then you can slowly
impact other people, and thenmaybe good things will happen.
(26:46):
There are gonna be more peopleimpacted. Yeah.
So it is a process. And that'swhy I think it's always about,
you know, understand yourself,understand your boundaries,
understand what make youstressed, what make you relax,
you know, what is more importantfor you. If this is not a right
environment, for example, ifyou're working under a toxic
environment, then you might needto leave. So you have to make
(27:10):
the best judgment what is whatis right, what is wrong. Right?
People, if this is not a goodenvironment, everybody knows
about it. There is gonna besomething happening soon. Trust
me. Yeah. Because yeah.
Because that's just how thingsusually work. Think I think
there's always I was in thisworkshop, and it's talk about
(27:33):
when you have a high high inyour life, you might next
experience a low low. And thenwhen you have a low low, the
next moment you might experiencea high high. So it's always
going up and down. Mhmm.
Just how you experience
Adam Larson (27:49):
always balance.
Ting Song (27:50):
Yeah. You're always a balance. Yeah.
Adam Larson (27:52):
So when I'm thinking about burnout and I
think about organizations, a lotof times there's, like, this
tension between, you know,personal mental health, self
care kind of stuff, and careerprogression. Because if you look
at society, a lot of times thepeople who work those hundred
twenty hour weeks and, you know,slept in the office and built
these beautiful billion dollarbusinesses, and you think and
(28:15):
you look at what they did tobuild that, and I'm like, I
don't know that I wanna do allthat so I can build a billion
dollar business because I wannaactually sleep and enjoy life.
And so, you know, there's thistension. Is is there a way to to
balance your ambition with selfcare?
Ting Song (28:28):
I think it's a choice.
Adam Larson (28:30):
Okay.
Ting Song (28:32):
If I mean, if you a lot of people people, they're
not happy about their life. Butthere's there's also people, you
know, they work very, hard, ashort period of their time, and
then they're using the rest oftheir life to fix the problem
that was generated from thatshort period of time. So so it's
(28:56):
about, do you want a long termsuccess, or do you want a short
term success? If do you reallywant a lot of money? Is that the
ending goal of your life?
Or you wanna have a fab happylife? It's a I think it's a
personal choice. I always feelyou can achieve a lot in a short
period of time. If you workreally, really hard, which means
(29:19):
my it might be sacrifice yourtime to do any other things or
your personal health orwell-being, but it's not
sustainable. At least it's notsustainable for most people.
It might be happening for somepeople, but for most people,
it's not sustainable.
Adam Larson (29:36):
Yeah.
Ting Song (29:37):
So you can see their short term success. Yeah.
They're very success. But thatwas maybe for many now, like,
ten years, five years, but theyare they really successful at
the end of their life? Right?
It's a marathon. So you alwayswanna, you know, look at the
full picture to see what is youwanna do, your choice, how you
(30:01):
wanna live your life. And then,you know, you might also make
adjustment. You know? Sometimeswhen you're in your twenties,
you make a choice different thanwhat you're doing in your
thirties.
In your forties, it's differentagain. So you make adjustment.
You know? But I think the mostimportant thing is that you have
to understand. You you're youhave to understand yourself, and
(30:26):
everybody is so different.
If you you know, the work theway you work, some people, they
are just good at working longhours, and that's how they can
produce results. Whereas otherpeople, they might have short
you know, they can only focus ashort period of time, but they
(30:48):
generate even better resultswithin a short period of time.
So you have to understand whatis your style. I think most
time, burnout and stress isbecause you're trying to make
your body to do something yourbody doesn't wanna do because
you don't understand your bodyvery well.
Adam Larson (31:06):
Yeah.
Ting Song (31:06):
You in yeah. You're intervene in you intervene the
natural rhythm of your body,which, you know for example, you
body will tell you it's time tosleep, but your in use you tell
yourself, no. I can't sleepbecause I have so many things I
need to think about. So it'syourself telling yourself, okay.
I need to do something that'sagainst my nature.
(31:30):
And that's why it's burnout. Youget burnout. You got stressed
because you're forcing yourselfto do something you're not
naturally able to do. Whereas,you know, some people, they
their body are built differentthan us. They are able to do,
you know, long hours.
Or when they're working, theymight actually taking breaks in
the middle, but you don't seethat. You only see what they
(31:53):
presented to you. You don'treally see what's actually
happening to them. Mhmm. Becauseof that, you know, you think,
oh, they work long hours.
Yeah. Success. You know, theywork hard. They get success. No.
It's not always the truthbecause you don't know the
details. Yes. So I think it'sbecause yeah. We all see, you
know, what's happening from thesurface, and then we think
(32:14):
that's what's gonna happen, butthat might not be.
Adam Larson (32:20):
Yeah. I like that. Yeah. It's it's it's really
hard, and I think sometimes wehear these stories of people,
but you don't see what whattheir day to day was like. You
don't see what they did to maybeavoid burnout as they went built
their careers.
And so you can't makeassumptions that, oh, I have to
work eighty hours a week to tobe successful. You know, a lot
of times with everything that'shappening and all the, different
(32:40):
advances in technology, youknow, we should be working
smarter and and finding ways tocut down the amount of hours
that we need to work to still besuccessful.
Ting Song (32:49):
Exactly. And it's all about, like, if you know what
you're good at. Right? If you'regood at Mhmm. Doing certain
things, you focus on more thanthat.
And then you you'll be able tobe more successful in that area,
and then you don't feel as tiredbecause that's something you're
more talented in. Whereas if youdo something you're are not good
at, even working one hour a daymight make you tired. Yeah. And
(33:11):
that's why
Adam Larson (33:12):
You know? Yeah. I feel like this has been an
amazing conversation talkingabout burnout, and I think we've
covered a lot of differentthings. And I kinda wanna leave
our listeners with, you know,maybe somebody's been listening
to this and they've identified,hey. I I think I am burnt out or
about to be burnt out.
Maybe we can maybe you can wecan kinda end the conversation
by, like, what's one small smallstep that they could start by,
like, kind of, I wanna reclaimmy energy. I wanna reclaim my
(33:34):
well-being. I wanna take a stepin the right direction.
Ting Song (33:38):
I think it from okay. If you can go home and start to
set alarm for yourself to take abreak after one hour of working
for five minutes. Okay. That'sthe first step you can do. It's
very small step.
Just take a five minutes breakevery hour you work. I say
small, but it takes a lot ofenergy or, you know, management
(33:58):
in order to do that. But I thinkit's very important. Just start
to take a break during the day.I think that will be the the
best first step for you to startwith this process.
Adam Larson (34:08):
Yeah. I like that. Well, Ting, it's been an
absolute pleasure having you onthe podcast. Thank you so much
for coming and sharing yourexpertise with our listeners
today.
Ting Song (34:17):
Thank you. Thank you. It's my honor to be here as
well. And it's great chattingwith you, and I'm so happy I can
share all these experiences andadvice to whoever listens here.
Announcer (34:30):
This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing
you with the latest perspectivesof thought leaders from the
accounting and financeprofession. If you like what you
heard and you'd like to becounted in for more relevant
accounting and financeeducation, visit IMA's website
at www.imanet.org.
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