"Going through the dark gives you the light" with anonymous guest

Sitting under the stars
OG video games
Free time post-divorce
COVID-stalled divorce
Processing tough decisions
Entering the dating world
Creating games for a living
Disneyland
Being loved

Join me on IG:
michaelvieyraphotography

Episode Transcript

Unknown (00:08):
Welcome to courage under the stars with Michael
Vieyra. That's me, I am MichaelVieyra. Here I speak off the
cuff with people that I findinteresting, where you're going
to sit in a darkened room andjust allowing you to eavesdrop.
I tell my guests, no politics,no religion, but otherwise, I
don't care what we talk about,as long as it comes from the
heart. I hope even just a smallpart of it resonates with you.

(00:31):
Some of it will, some of itwon't. And that's okay. But I'm
just glad you're here. I reallydo love all of you. And thanks
for coming. Let's get this thingstarted. Why
not just be here enjoying thefire?
To enjoy fire?
Do youwant to ask you if you know, or
recall when the last time youwere sitting out underneath of

(00:54):
stars and who you're with.
And the focus was to really lookup at the stars. Because I just
came back from something calledElectric Forest, which is a
giant Music Festival, Michiganin a forest. So there was a lot

(01:15):
of being out at night under thestars. But like a name, like
people that we know.
In terms of the peopleperforming Yeah, I'm not cool
enough to know them. What the 20something sure seemed excited. I
was excited for you for asecond. Like, good boy. Yeah,

(01:36):
no, that's I'm not cool enough.
Right.
Now, well, I actually mean,like, you know, sitting out
underneath the stars going tothe beach, going to the
campfire,center around and talking.
I think the last one that Iremember was in pandemic, I

(01:57):
finally started camping. Ialways felt like it was
something that I would want todo. But I like actually started
doing it in pandemic and so whenup north to Inyo Valley and was
camping up there and the starswere just bonkers. Like, you're
shooting stars. That was theMilky Way. There was all of the

(02:21):
amazing this that just made meso happy. What is it about that
amazingness that that sends uswhy do we get so
I don't know, introspective whenwe're sitting under the stars. I
think it's the magic of knowingthat there's so much else out
there. So it's it does soundtrite.

(02:43):
You think what you just said istrite. I think that's deep. I
think it's it's knowing likethere's so much else out there.
So it gives you a chance topause and step away from
the day to day what's on mygrocery list. And what do I need
to book and what's this thing onmy to do list and it gives you a
chance to step out. It'sdefinitely a break from that.

(03:04):
Yeah. And I think for mepersonally, it's a break from I
don'tI don't get to see that very
often living in Los Angeles.
Yeah, there might be some clearnights that are kind of pretty
cool. Butwhen I go out to the beach, or
even better for me, Palm Springsor Joshua Tree it's like oh my
god. What is this place? Yeah, Ilove for me it's forest. I'm

(03:27):
definitely a forest person. Andit just I literally feel it fill
my heart like I grew up playingvideo games and I see you know,
you have your hearts and yourhearts get depleted. It's like
going in the pool and Zelda whenyour hearts just go like blue
blue blue.

(03:48):
They're all full. That's that'swhat it is for me to go out and
be in a forest. Well, I love theconfirmation of how much of a
nerd you are. If was there anydoubt? I'd always kind of hoped
for more but no. For you. Allright. Well, favorite game
growing up was delta.
Yeah, of course. So your yourold school. Yeah, well, Zelda

(04:09):
and Mario Kart like all thesuper Mario's that whole that
whole shebang. It's, um, I'm nota hipster. I'm not obscure,
cool, cool things. Those giantthings. I'm gonna ask you to
that I loved two differenttimes. Pitfall Harry, did you
know it? Nope. Oh, man. That wasright. There was Zelda. What do

(04:29):
you do? piffle. Harry wasessentially
it was I forget. It wasn'tNintendo. It was a I think it
was Atari. Yeah. And you justkind of just kind of followed it
along and and jumped stuff. Itwas like early Mario Brothers,
if you will. But then myfavorite though. We moved into
PlayStation two was SyphonFilter, which is just

(04:53):
a shoot 'em up action spythriller. It was awesome. I
never had a PlayStation. I wasalways a Nintendo girl.
So have a duck. Duck ondefinitely, yeah.
So you have two kids, where doyou go now to find that sort of

(05:13):
retreat that piece?
Well, as we were discussingearlier, I am divorced. And it
has given me back so much time,because the default was always
100%. Just I will always takethe kids and I will plan and do
everything for the kids. Andthen occasionally, he would come

(05:36):
and be like, hey, I can takethem for a few hours if you need
to get some work done orwhatever. And now it's this, you
know, prescribed thing of okay,no, this is your time. So I
suddenly have so much time Iremember I saw a friend of mine
posted on Facebook for Mother'sDay, that she got, you know, one

(05:57):
night in a hotel, to get to,like, get her work done and take
a bath and have some time. And Iwas like, wow, that's, that's
every week for me. And it is,it's, it's such a gift, because
I'm still with my kids the vastmajority of the time. And so I
don't, I don't feel I know, somedivorced parents, I've talked to

(06:22):
they, they really feel the lackof time with their children.
But I, I feel like it's in thisreally good balance of like, the
vast majority of my time is withmy children. But then, you know,
every Friday night, and everySunday afternoon and evening, I
do get time for myself. And oneweekend, a month I get to

(06:46):
myself, and it's beenincredible. Like, I've gotten to
go on so many trips, and so manyadventures. And I just remember
when I was married, you know, afriend was like, oh, yeah, like,
I'd love to go skiing orwhatever it was. And I was like,
Man, I just I don't know whenI'll be able to ever do.

(07:07):
It really becomes more aboutjust simply the time available.
Yeah, yeah. And my, my, I don'tcare where you go. I just Oh,
look at this. I have time tomyself. Yeah, it's amazing. I
love it. I love everything thatI've gotten to do. And you know,
that's where I got to go on allof these camping trips. Like

(07:27):
that's, that's my kidsnightmare. I want to drag them
along. But like, I love hikingand camping and anything being
in nature. And that is not athing. So I could either drag
them and have complainingunhappy children the entire
time. Or I could take it as mytime and like, fill my hearts

(07:51):
back up. Do you think as kidsthat we complain like your kids?
I'm sure we did. I mean, myparents were not hiking camping
people either. Sothat wasn't there. But as a
matter of fact, yeah. We usedour views whenever we went
camping. Oh, yeah. No, we didn'teven go camping.

(08:17):
Yeah, I don't know. My parentsthink my kids are harder. My
brother and I were. So I'll takethat as some consolation that
like, it's not just me thinkingthis is hard. Like they also are
like, yeah, no, this is your waymore of like involved. And, you
know, I do I think it's justparenting these days. Like

(08:41):
it's your it's expected that youare so much more engaged and
involved than it was when wewere kids. It does appear that
way if I'm not a parent, but Ido see it that way. So you
How long have you been divorced?
Well, we're still officiallywaiting for the judge to sign
the paperwork. This has been theworld's slowest divorce. We

(09:08):
we decided in February of 2020,that we should get a divorce.
And one time and then you mightrecall in March of 2020.
Everything shut down. And so wewere still you know, living
together. So it it has been justan incredibly slow, slow

(09:28):
process. But in some ways, it'sbeen frustrating, but I think in
some ways, it's really beenfor the best in that for our
kids. Like this whole thing hashappened so slowly that in so
many ways, like their lives havebarely changed. Okay, so I I am
grateful for that at least.

(09:54):
One of the things I likewhen we met today
Because I haven't seen you in anumber of years
was the light around you? So youdon't even have to tell me that
you're doing well, because I cansee it.
What do you attribute that? Ithink divorce has got to be
tough no matter what side you'reon. And

(10:18):
but you just I mean, you seem tobe have to accelerated past it
in a great way. Yeah, it wasreally hard. I mean, I think,
you know, I thinkgoing through the dark, gives
you the light, like, you, ifyou're, if it was always just
all light and easy. You wouldn'trecognize it for what it is.

(10:42):
Yeah. And so, there, there willalways be times in life where
you're just like, this is hard.
And I think one of the, thelessons that I've been learning
and working on is that sometimesit's just okay to, like, sit in
that feeling for a minute. Sotrue. I'm sad. Like, this makes

(11:07):
me really sad. And this isreally hard. And I just, you
know, I joke, my therapist waslike, you're kind of a robot.
Thanks, therapy,right, like I am. So just like,
well, logically, we can look atA, B and C. And so one thing
that I've definitely beenworking on is, is feeling the

(11:30):
feelings. And I think thatletting myself feel the, the sad
and the hard and the bad. alsoopens the door to feeling the
light and the happy and the joy.
Like it was, I mean, pandemicwas hard. Like, it was so hard

(11:55):
to, you know, like, finallydecide like, Okay, now we're,
we're gonna do it, we're gonnaget a divorce. Like, I'm, you
know, I'm making this choice.
I'm taking this step to, like,open up the door to the
potential of what else could belike and to make that decision.
And then just essentially, like,have a giant hand come and smack

(12:15):
it out and be like, no, no, youmay not do that. Today. Yeah.
Not for many, many, many months.
Yeah.
It was hard. Like, I've nevercried so much as I did in
pandemic, because there waseverything, right, like, all of

(12:35):
the things that everyone wasgoing through, and then the
personal things, and yeah, it'shard. You know, you hear
somebody say, Hello, pandemicwas really hard. I mean, it's
like, Dude, it was hard oneverybody. Yeah, yeah. And I
totally understand that. And itwas hard on everyone in all
different ways. You know, Ithink all of the parents that I
know, we're all like, dying,like, Oh, my God, I have to work

(12:56):
and I have to homeschool. And Ihave to do all the things. And
then all of my single friendswere just like, I haven't seen
another soul. What am I doing?
And it was really hard andreally different ways. But yeah,
just across the board, how wasit for you? I think it was
a blessing for me. I don't saythat lightly. And understanding

(13:19):
what we just said her, it washard on everybody.
But as most people know, I washomeless at the time. And so I
got to participate in theproject room key portion of LA.
So I was put up in a hoteldowntown, which was beautiful,
and awesome. And, um, I'll beeternally grateful for all of
that.

(13:42):
Soif it hadn't been for COVID, I
don't know what I would havedone during that time.
Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah,worked out pretty great.
Are you the type that you hadsaid to you?

(14:03):
You recognize what was going onwith your divorce and you cried?
Are you the type that likes toaddress what's going on your
life? Or do you find yourselfkind of shoving it in your back
pocket?
Like with myself, do I addressit with myself? Like how you
deal with things? Um,I am very much like an action

(14:23):
oriented person where I'm like,okay, so this is going on. So I
recognize this, and I don't likethis. So I'm going to take steps
A, B, and C, in order to nothave to go through this thing
that I don't like anymore. Andthen I'm going to do these other
things. Like I I'm always verybusy, and I like to be busy. I
can see that. Yeah.

(14:48):
So yes, I think I did addressit. But then also, as I was
saying, I think one of thelessons learned was that, you
know, sometimes, sometimes youdon't need to stay too
take steps to, to do all thethings to not feel it anymore
and take the things but justtake the time to actually sit in

(15:08):
it. And I think one of the biglessons that I've taken is that
kind of if you if you sit withthings long enough, the path
forward becomes a lot moreclear. Like I
couldn't agree more. Yeah, like,even with the the decision to
get a divorce, there was this,you know, period for quite a

(15:32):
while before making thatdecision of just like, What do I
do? And do I do I stay? Do I go?
Like, how do I? How do Ireconcile this? How do I fix it?
And you know, what are all thesteps and like, I just want to
know, you know, I've always beensomeone who like, has a goal and
does the steps and achieves thegoal. And

(15:54):
for the first time, it was like,I'm not sure what the goal is
like, Is the goal to continue inthis marriage? Or is the goal to
get out of this marriage? And Ireally wasn't sure. And it was
so hard, because without thatgoal, I then didn't have my
steps to take to get there. Andso it was a real lesson and just

(16:20):
Okay, no, sometimes you justhave to sit in the uncertainty.
And if you give it enough time,it, it will become really clear.
And it did become really clear.
And I've never looked back likesince making the decision. And
I'm someone who questionseverything right. But I have
never looked back and been like,oh, wait, no, maybe not. I'm not

(16:42):
sure. Like I've it's just like,Yeah, this was absolutely the
right choice. And I feel sure ofthat.
Never looked back, never lookedback.
It's awesome. Do you look back alot? I think I used to
excuse me on the show. I'mcoughing all the time. Yeah, I

(17:04):
used to look back back in theday. And but I've since shifted
my way of thinking. And I dobelieve I'm a better person. And
so I truly live in the moment.
And I don't look back veryoften. Is there anything that
you still look back on thesedays where you're like,
I really don't not that carriesme forward. There might be

(17:26):
something I may be reminded of.
But that'll only sit with me fora moment. Because when I realize
in that moment that well,there's nothing I can do about
it. So I'm going to sit where Iam right now. Yeah, that makes
sense.
Was it I've never been married.
And so it's hard enough.

(17:50):
Breaking up with a with agirlfriend
is a much more monumentaldecision. When you realize, oh,
I've got to get a divorce. Yeah,it's huge. And I mean, I think
especially having the twochildren that was the main thing
of like, Is thishurting the children. And you

(18:10):
know, I remember a friend wasdating a man who was divorced.
And he,he had a daughter. And she had
never known her parentstogether. They got divorced when
she was a really little baby. Soshe had never known them

(18:31):
together. But still, that littlegirl. All she wanted. And what
she expressed to her father allthe time was like, I just want
all three of us to be together,you know, and she never even
knew it. And so there wasdefinitely that fear that for my
children, it would be this hugeloss of the family unit.

(18:59):
And what Ikind of came around to though,
was that no one there's thewhole, like,
if mama ain't happy, nobody'shappy. Like, you can't suffer
through something that is notworking. Just for them. Like
they'll know it and talking tofriends, too, whose parents did

(19:21):
stay together. Yeah. When theyshould have gotten divorced. I
had that. Yeah, yeah. Andtalking to those adult friends
who were like, Oh, God, I wishthey'd gotten divorced. Like I
hate being in the middle oftheir fights. And I hate seeing
how unhappy they make each otherlike and just so there was that
aspect of it. And then there wasalso the aspect of like, I want

(19:46):
them to be able to know like,what love should look like like
what a marriage should looklike. And this is not it and I
don't want them thinking. Thisis what it is.
Because I don't want them togrow up and, and have that and
think that this is what itshould be I want them, you know,

(20:06):
to, hopefully potentially see,you know, one or both of us in
happy relationships that areworking well, where there's
affection and there's laughterand there's, you know, like,
touch and just closeness and Iwant them. Everything you're
saying reflects to love. And Ijust love that. Yeah. Like, I,

(20:29):
my parents love each other. Andthey still, like, hold hands
with each and I'm just like, Irecognize, like, that's what a
good marriage is. And I try topoint it out to my kids whenever
we're around them, like, yousee, like, grandma had these
crazy ideas. And Abby was like,yeah, absolutely. That sounds

(20:50):
great. Like, he just supportsher and all these crazy ideas.
Like, that's, that's great,because he loves her, like, see,
see how this works. And so I, I,it came from a place ultimately
of wanting them to know, like,Yeah, this is this is what it
should be. Do you feel like yourparents looking at them and

(21:10):
thinking they should bedivorced? Do you think that
maybe it's one of the reasonsthat you never did get married?
Wow, that is a great question. Idon't know. I don't know one way
or the other. I do know that Iwas not happy with the way they
their marriage was when it wasbad.
I don't like that it went backand forth for so long. I don't

(21:32):
like that. My father was so hurtwhen they finally did get
divorced.
And then beyond that, there'sreally only one girl in my life
that ever would have married.
And you know, sometimes thateither happens or it doesn't. In
this case, it didn't. Andso on that end, I've never felt
like I've missed out even thoughyou know, so of course.

(21:56):
I wouldn't mind being married.
But I I'm not in lack of it.
It's not something you'reseeking. No, no, not at all.
We all love human companionship,and I don't mind that at all.
But if that companionship leadsto marriage, cool. But yeah, I'm

(22:16):
not seeking a partner in thatway.
I get that.
Are you dating?
I am dating. What could youMagoo? How do you go about
coming back out of the weddingout of the marriage? To deciding
how you're going to date? Who doyou date? How do you find them?
Oh, well, it was a whole thing.
Because of course, you know, Igot married before there were

(22:39):
apps.
That's a whole new world.
With the apps and it's so fun.
Like, you know, there's there'sa joke old joke that there's
nothing married people love morethan swiping through single
people.
Because it's like, I never gotto do this.
And now I get to do it. And it'sit's really fun. Like I and

(23:02):
it's, I think it's really great.
Becauseyou're supposed to get married,
you're supposed to have kids.
Like, there's all these thingswe're like, and I know so many
people who are dating to like,find their person settle down,
have kids with them. And so it'slike this very loaded search,

(23:25):
right? Like, it's high stakes.
And it's very important to them.
Yeah. And for me, I kind of feellike, well, I did that. And I'm
so happy that I did that. Like Ilove my kids more than anything.
You know, I don't regret themarriage like I,
I, I did that I did themarriage. I did the kids like,

(23:47):
great.
And now I can just kind of dateto like, date and and just take
take you as a person and see howI feel about you and not like,
oh, well, I don't know, are yougoing to be a good provider for
my family? And are you going tobe a good father? Are you
someone I want to settle down?
Yeah, kids go out. Like, I canjust go out. And it's, it's a

(24:07):
lot less. So wait, what did Imiss? What are you using apps?
So I was actually I have aboyfriend now. So I'm not on the
app anymore. Right? But I was onthe apps and they were fun.
Yeah, like, I feel like so manyof my friends are so sick of the
apps like they just it takes somuch time and work and they're

(24:30):
just likewhereas for me it it never lost
its novelty. Like it was justreally fun to
wipe and through and but didn'tyou find that there were so many
catfishes out there guys areputting up pictures that no I
didn't. There was one guy I wenton a date with and I was like,

(24:51):
oh god, okay, your pictures werelike 20 years old and he was a
philosophy professor and it wasliterally like he just lectured
me on foot.
Last time, it was like,he did have an adorable dog with
him. So that was probably thehighlight of the day. Was he
older? Yeah, he was like 20years old. So I thought he was
gonna be like, in his, you know,maybe late 40s, early 50s. And I

(25:14):
think he was like, 65, sevenyear like it was.
So yeah, it was just like, Okay,I should. One other thing that
came out of pandemic was theFaceTime date first, which is
Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. Like, mytime is super limited. So, if I

(25:36):
can just, you know, like, Ioften run tests, I often work at
night, but then if after I'mdone working, I can like, hop on
a FaceTime with someone for 20minutes. I can't judge chemistry
from a FaceTime date. But I canjudge like, Are you someone I
can have an easy conversationwith? And do you at least

(25:57):
somewhat look like yourpictures? But isn't that so much
of what chemistry is because ifwe have rapport and we can chat,
that's so important to me. It'sdefinitely part of it. But I
will say there's there's plentyof people who you know, I love
having conversations with themand everything like that, but I
don't necessarily want to makeout with an even if they're
attractive, like there's I thinkchemistry is like this extra X

(26:19):
Factor. Got it?
I hear you on that. And thenthat's undeniable. It's a little
superficial to some level, in myopinion. But I totally make
sense because we want to beattracted, but at the same time,
I gotta still like you whenwe're done making out. Yeah. Oh,
definitely. No, that's, that'ssuper bright. And I have to be
able to have a conversation withyou. And there have definitely

(26:41):
been Yeah, with the dating thingwhere I'm like, You're just so
pretty. You're so pretty. Yeah.
I guess there's just not thatmuch there. Can't do it. Have
you been doing the FaceTimedating? I haven't. I've not I've
because I've been in thissituation I really haven't
dated. But I may be puttingmyself out there soon. I don't
know. But I think what do Istand in your little scale of

(27:04):
like a look at my one betweenone and 10? Where do I stand?
Now? You know what I had afriend asked me this question.
And it went terribly wrong. AndI'm waiting for the answer.
Never again, never again, you inthe audience are gonna be
waiting forever. I'll tell youyour answer. No, no, I want to
hear from you. What it's gonnatake for you to be like, Okay,
I'm ready. I'm getting back onthe apps. I will tell you the

(27:26):
honest truth that we're gettingthere. Be at first when people
would ask me this questionrecently. I'd be like, You know
what, I'm homeless. Nobody wantsto go out with me, Barbara
Barbara. I have a friend whodated homeless guy. Oh, my God,
you're way more on top of thingsthan that guy was he would go
off on benders for like, weeks.
And it was it was madness. Butanyways, so I'm just saying

(27:49):
that, you know, that's notdefinitely gonna eliminate you,
you know, what happens? Is itbecause you become you start
second guessing what you haveavailable to anyone. And in my
opinion, you know, I couldn'ttake them anywhere. I didn't
have money.
To me, that's huge. I want totake you places, simpler places,
just simple a dinner or a movie.
You know what I'll say this, theguy I'm dating right now does

(28:11):
not have a lot of money at all.
He's a musician. Now he's awriter.
Like on Friday night, he cookedme dinner at his place. And
like, that's all I need. Like, Idon't just do something that
shows like you're putting aneffort and thinking about me
like you don't need to take meout to a restaurant. Like I

(28:34):
think there's a great point tobe made in that.
Now that everything's comingaround for me and I do have a
roof over my head andand I'm feeling a little bit
more purposeful with the podcastand other things I'm doing in my
life.
It does lead me to believe likeOkay, wait a minute. You have

(28:57):
you have yourself to offer youdon't need to offer these
dinners and whatnot. you exactlywhat you just said come on over.
I'll make you I'll make you notspaghetti, but I'll make you
great pasta.
Like, my feet. Were killing methe other day. It's like here,
let me give you a foot massage.
That's a that's a key and welearned that in ninth grade.

(29:20):
That's move 101 Yeah, well, moremen need to use it. I have not
gotten nearly enough off. Oh,wow. A grid foot massage. Pulp
Fiction man that that argumentis with me all the time because
I agree. 100% Man, don't touch awoman's foot unless you're
planning on doing something.
So yeah, I think as long as youcan offer a good foot massage.

(29:42):
Yep.
And by the way, like on a scaleof one to 10 Good luck.
So what was the last date youwent on? Oh my god.
Well, long ago, my mydisabilities started kicking in
trouble.
probably in about 2016. So Iwould say 2015 was probably at

(30:06):
God it's embarrassing to say itout loud but down 2015 Seven
years remembering I do it was ayou know it was it was a pretty
call it dating someone I wasn'tjust it wasn't just a date it
was dating like a girlfriend.
No, but it was like, you know,we've gone out a few times when
boyfriend girlfriend yet but butwe're definitely hanging out.

(30:28):
And then that just kind of ranits course but but it was fun.
And we did and you know what'sweird is I don't know if the
point you're making but yeah, wedid the simple stuff that you're
talking about. I just made herdinner and she came over and did
stuff. And it was simple.
I think the stigma is created bymyself, to be honest with you

(30:48):
about what I had to offer. WhileI didn't while I wasn't working
and living on disability andyeah, yeah. And I think, of
course, it's about the peoplethat you find, right? Like
there, there definitely arethose people who are like, well,
now if you're not going to spendtons of money on me, then forget
it. But then I gotta tell you,you're hitting the nail on the

(31:10):
head. Because when you startedsaying all these things, I was
like, oh, man, that's awesome. Ilove that. Because I don't think
that is prevalent in thefemale way of thinking.
Not not to say that you guys arebad, but to definitely not
anybody. Nobody wants somebodywho can't hold their own. Sure.
Yeah, I think for me, it's aboutlike, Well, are you chasing

(31:35):
something? Like? Are youpassionate about something? You
know? Are you intelligent? Areyou kind of have a good
conversation with you like,these are all the things that
aremore important, ultimately, and
if it hasn't yet manifested in away where you're making lots of
money on it, then okay, but ifyou're, if you're trying, that's
that's what matters.

(32:00):
You famously came up with thisescape room in a box game.
Sold at stores? And now you seemto it's propelled you in a bunch
of other games? What's going onwith that? Are you rich and
famous? Or what's the deal? So Iam like, the most niche famous

(32:25):
person possible.
I think within the like, escaperoom puzzling community. I am
I'm about as famous asmore than what you know what,
that's a great point. Because ifthat's the case, why, where's
your drive coming from? Becauseyou're constantly coming up with

(32:46):
new ideas and games. Oh, I loveit. It's such a joy. It is 100%
Feels like I just made up acareer. And somehow now people
pay me to do it. Like it's, it'sbonkers to me that this is what
I get to do. Because, you know,we do the tabletop games, which
is super fun. And then we alsoget to just work on a bunch of

(33:11):
other incredible stuff in alldifferent formats. So like, we
do film and television, youknow, press and activations and
stuff like that. I mentioned wejust got back from this music
festival that was part of that.
Yeah, we had 14,000 People playour games across four days.

(33:33):
Like, we literally literally arejust some of them. No, no, the
festival was like 50,000 but interms of the people who played
games, it was gratulationsthat's amazing. Thank you. And
just the music festivals areincredibly fun because
everyone's all high and happybut they they're so grateful

(33:54):
they're just like, this isincredible. I can't believe you
came up with this like thank youso much like this is why I come
to this festivals for the that'sawesome you know it was our our
contact to hire those she postedafterwards. She was like the new
headliner for the festival isthe games like people were lined

(34:17):
up in like insane the length ofthe line of people who are
coming to play to play the gamesthey have to pay to play the
game or whatever part of theirticket it's all part of the
ticket Yeah. Okay, so if I mayYeah, are you making money or do
you make a living at this now?
Yeah, no, they they paid us tomake we weren't like charging

(34:38):
per game but they paid usoverall a flat fee to do this.
Yeah. Yeah, we we are makingmoney and it's it's funny
because it's we are wildlysuccessful in the games world.
The amount of money that youmake being wildly successful in
the gamecompared to you know, we're here

(35:00):
in LA, it's film and TV, likethe amount of money that film
and TV make his games like, youknow, we're doing we're doing
well, it's not like, Oh my God,let me buy a private island sort
of well, butthat's huge, but because if
you're getting less than that,that means you're doing all

(35:21):
right. I would think no, we'redoing so there's two of us that
run the company. And we are, youknow, we both do this as our
full time job. And it feels likea
decent salary for our full timejob is one of the games been,
which has been the biggest hit.
So the first one was theabsolute biggest It has sold.

(35:43):
That game alone, I think hassold over 100,000 copies. It's
crazy. All in all, in thetabletop games that we've made,
we've sold over 400,000 copies,and I have $20. No, okay.

(36:05):
But yeah, like, if you figureeach game, probably two to three
people play it that's like overa million people who have played
something that I created, whichis just mind boggling. So when
does this give youa sense of purpose that propels
you forward? Is this like, youknow, when we talk about purpose

(36:26):
in our lives, there's suchthings that make us move? Is
this part of that for you? Yeah,for sure. I mean, I absolutely
love it. It's funny, because Idon't, you know, people, and we
do sit down as a business. Andwe're like, Okay, what direction
do we want to go? And what do wewant to focus on? And
so much of what we're alreadydoing, I'm like, I just love

(36:47):
this, I want to just continuedoing this, you know, make
putting out more tabletop games.
And we're working with a themepark right now, which is
freaking cool.
So, so exciting. I'd love to domore and more in that space as
well. But it's really justcontinuing to do you know, what,

(37:09):
what we've been doing. And it's,it's really cool to make
something. You know, the goal ofour games is to bring people
together to give them a chanceto feel smart to give them
moments of discovery andaccomplishment, and like
laughter and joy with theirfriends. And so I will tell you
that I am notthe smartest guy. But I'm not

(37:30):
the dumbest guy either. And Iwould say your games are.
They're hard for me. They'reThey're definitely hard. I mean,
they're there for people whowant a challenge. Like, that's,
that's definitely I think, andyou know, it depends too, like
the game that we just made forthe music festival was a whole
lot easier because we kneweveryone had to appeal to the

(37:53):
masses. Oh, yeah. Notnecessarily planning to do a
bunch of puzzles. So I wonderwhat this coin tastes like.
Yeah, we had one. Now that theCecil we just did, but another
festival is a It was literallythe puzzle boiled down to red
plus blue like it was it was abig red plant and a big blue

(38:15):
pant plan there. There was aplus sign. And so the answer
to red plus blue is yellow.
He would not be the first tothink.
What is it? That's purple. Damnit.
So like so many people were likebrown green? Like, yes. So

(38:38):
there's times where we're like,oh, this is so easy. And then
still, still just just just now?
Well, it's all subjective,right? What do you think is
easy? Just may not be totally.
Yeah, everyone comes from there.
There are different things. Yousaid something earlier of the
working with theme parks. Andthat made me think of, there was
definitely a I don't know, twoyear period, where you and I and

(38:58):
a couple of other friends weregoing to Disneyland all the
time. That was one of myfavorite things that we that
I've done. Like that was one ofthe favorite things I've done.
And I will tell you this, Idon't really have communication
with the other two friendsanymore.
And that's not a bad thing. It'sjust but but I think the point
I'm making is, I still rememberthat time period at Disneyland

(39:22):
with three of you as just anawesome period in my life. Yeah,
that made me really, reallyhappy. Like and that's exactly
right. Like it brought us somuch joy and so much connection
to go and experience thesethings. Why would Disneyland be
so fascinating to for full grownadults? Because it is a magical

(39:44):
place. You get to jam out oftime and everything smells good
and it's clean and it's just,isn't it? Yeah, even the people
cleaning up the place are clean.
Yeah. And they're happy aboutit. Let me get that
piece of gum off the sidewalkfor you. Oh, thanks. It would be
my pleasure.

(40:05):
Yeah, that was the host supermagical. Have you been back in a
while I haven't been in so Ihave not been back and I lament
because I feel like with mydisabilities, I don't know if I
can do it. I'd have to take awheelchair. You could take a
wheelchair, you get Prime Accesson all the rides. I know, but I
can't do the rides because of mydisability. They go too fast. We

(40:26):
could do the slower slow ride.
Yeah, I do like Peter Pan. Andyou know, Pirates of the
Caribbean is my favorite andthat's just reopened or it's
reopening soon. Yeah, you couldtotally do. So I'm not against
it. And you know, I as a matterof fact, I almost called them
the other day to say, hey, howmuch for? For me just to get in
just to be in the park? I'm notgoing to take any rides. Can I
get a discount?

(40:51):
That'll be $190. Sir. Yeah.
Okay.
But do you?
It's gone. I have a question foryou. You had said something. Go
ahead. You're talking so muchabout me and like what I'm
driving towards and what I'mdoing. And I know you're doing

(41:12):
this podcast, which I think issuper cool. And super fun. And
we want to hear about what elseyou're driving towards. And your
purpose. Oh, I love you forasking. Here's my thing. And I
used to tell my, a my therapistthis, and she was all for it.
But I just wanted somethingmore. But here's what it was
prior to the podcast.
There's not a lot I can do withmy disabilities. Although, to

(41:35):
look at me, you think what'swrong with this guy, he can do
something now. It's just, myabilities are limited. I just
can't do much.
So as I said to her, I said,Listen, all I want to do is just
keep evolving, and keep findinglove sharing love. And I just
want to be love to everybody.
And that's all like, if I can'tdo anything else, that's what I

(41:56):
want. Andand as I kept saying that I was
like, yeah, that's all true. ButI, I feel like I need something
else something physical. If Ican't have it, fine. I'll just
be love. And I'm good with that.
But then I somehow found thepodcast. And so the podcast has

(42:17):
given me a great sense ofpurpose. And if the podcast goes
away, I'll still be fine. I'llstill be sharing my love. And
that's going to be enough forme. But the podcast has
definitely given me the drivethat you're talking about. I
love it. And so part of thisfestival that we just did, one
of the puzzles resolved to whatwas the moment? And then they

(42:38):
had to come find one of us andask what was the moment and then
we would ask them like, what wasthe moment that you felt strong?
Or what was the moment you feltmagic? So hearing you talk, I
want to ask what was the momentyou felt loved?
It was me.

(42:59):
And I just got choked up. That'swhat your question just did to
me. succinctly. I was I don'tthink you know this, but I was
suicidal.
I think it was 2018. AndI didn't know what I was going
to do.
I didn't want to commit suicide,but I felt so no other choice.
And then all of a sudden I saw ameme that I loved. And it just

(43:23):
spoke to me. Andand when I realized that the
only way out of this was to lovemyself.
First, that is when my worldchanged. And so you asked me

(43:44):
that question. And that is thelast time that I remember
feeling loved and reallyappreciating it. Because I will
tell you I'd never the guy youknew 10 years ago, he wouldn't
have said oh yeah, I love myselffirst and Barbuda because that's
just who he gooey nonsense.
But now God now, I love myselffirst and I can live with myself

(44:08):
for the rest of my life and behappy and it's it's a great
world when you can learn to behappy and to love yourself. I
love that. I love that it wasyou who loved you. Yeah, thank
you. Stop making me cry. Isn'tthat the goal? Podcast? Isn't
that how you win? I thought Iwon. Damn it. Well, I thought I

(44:28):
won. I my score between one and10
By the way, I'm giving myself a6.5 I'm a realist. Okay, all
right, solid. I'm never I bet itwent so horribly wrong. Never
again. Cuz you think I'm tryingto trick you by giving me my own
score? 100% Yeah, you're right.
You're the Game Master. I seeyour strategy.

(44:54):
All right. Well,I think I've had enough for you.
All right. I think I won thepodcast. So I think we're
I don't know that there's awinner or loser.
I gotta ask you a favor. You gotto ask my boy Andrew to go ahead
and take us out. Show's over.
Andrew, take us out. Andrew, canyou please take us out

(45:22):
all right, you guys. Thanks forcoming out. That was awesome.
We're going to be back in acouple of weeks. So hopefully
you'll join us then. And if youfeel so inclined, please leave a
positive review on any of yourfavorite platforms. And if you
didn't like us, of course, thisis Xavier McGillicuddy signing
out for today. It's MichaelVieyra. You knucklehead See you

(45:43):
later