September 10, 2024 • 26 mins
Discover the transformational journey from law enforcement to leadership and wellness with Brian Ellis, the Chief Experience Officer at the National Command College and MAGNUSWorx. Join Dr. Travis Yates as he unpacks Brian's remarkable transition, and learn how his collaboration with Dr. Javidi led to the creation of a groundbreaking application designed to reduce stress and enhance performance among police officers. Gain valuable insights into the importance of proactive stress management practices for the well-being and effectiveness of those who serve and protect.
Ever wondered how to balance assertiveness with competitiveness while maintaining humility? Brian delves into the core of effective leadership, emphasizing the need for coachability and openness to feedback. We also discuss the complexities and triumphs of implementing a tech platform to boost employee wellness and leadership engagement. See how persistence and innovation have driven significant improvements in staff retention and leadership participation. Whether you're a leader in law enforcement or any other field, this episode provides essential guidance on fostering courage, collaboration, and integrity in your professional journey. Connect with courageous leaders today at travisyates.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates,
where leaders find the insights,advice and encouragement they
need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates (00:12):
Welcome back to the show and I'm so excited to
bring you today's guest.
His name is Brian Ellis.
You've probably heard of himbefore.
Let me tell you who he is.
He's the Chief ExperienceOfficer at the National Command
College and Magnus Works andhe's the co-author of the Theory
of Magnus Ovea, a GeneralTheory of Human Performance and
(00:32):
Wellbeing.
Both Brian and I just releaseda new podcast called the Bravery
Blueprint that you're going tohear about here, and we're going
to give you the links to it inthe show notes.
But, brian Ellis, thanks forbeing on with Courageous
Leadership.
How are you doing, sir?
Thanks, brother, I'm doing well.
So, man, a lot of peopleprobably are familiar with you,
(00:53):
brian.
You're doing a lot of coolstuff in the industry.
Obviously, you're focused in onleadership and wellness, all
things that go with that.
Just sort of give our audiencea quick summary of how you got
here, kind of your career,because you're retired law
enforcement and work us up totoday.
Brian Ellis (01:06):
Yeah, essentially it's.
You know, I think my work atCommand College of Magnus Works
is just an extension of mypolice service and that's you
know.
I took an oath to protect andserve and you know, quite
frankly, nothing's given me morejoy than to serve those who
serve.
And we got a lot.
(01:27):
We got a big road ahead of us.
We've got a tall mountain toclimb.
I mean, and some of thestatistics around you know,
leadership and performance andpolice organizations is quite
frightening and and we got to dosomething about it frightening
(01:48):
and and we got to do somethingabout it.
Travis Yates (01:49):
Yeah, so you retired and you jumped in full
steam with the National Commandand Staff College.
Tell us how that relationshiphappened and some of the things
that you're doing.
Brian Ellis (01:55):
Yeah, so I, you know, I've been working for the
for command college for about adecade.
So I've I, you know, I think Iwas in a master's program when I
was first introduced to DrJavidi and his crew and they
asked me to do some writing forthem and I said you got the
wrong guy.
I'm not really not a writer notinterested in writing.
And they encouraged me oversome time to essentially write
(02:19):
my first article.
And then, you know, kind ofonce you stumble through
something, you know, once you'vedone something difficult,
you're like, oh, that wasn't sobad and yeah, I mean, it started
this side hustle, so to speak,of just researching me to
(02:53):
working for command college forquite some time.
And then, as I was nearingretirement, dr Chavitti you know
Mitch, basically just said, heylook, I've got this idea, and
it was an idea on a napkin.
And you know he said leadershiptraining is just not enough,
it's just not doing what youknow, there's too much that's
(03:17):
needed and we really can't justput that many people in
classrooms.
So that led to us building outMagnus Works and where we're at
today.
Travis Yates (03:29):
Yeah, I had Justin King on the show a few weeks
ago.
So if you're listening to thisnow and you haven't heard Justin
King's interview, go back tothat after this episode.
It'll give you a lot of context.
On the National Command staffcalls, Justin is involved on the
training at a high level and Italked briefly with Justin about
Magnus Works, Brian and you'rethe brainchild behind that.
By the way, every great ideastarts off on a napkin.
(03:49):
I got a whole bunch of napkinsback here in my drawer that I
haven't got anybody like Brianinvolved in it.
So I'm sure Dr Mitch was verypleased that you took that and
ran with it.
So I want to just brieflyexplain to our audience that
maybe haven't listened toJustin's podcast yet.
Tell us exactly what theapplication is.
And then I want to get into howthis retired cop from
(04:10):
California got with this crazyDr Mitch guy and they made what
I believe is one of the mostimportant instruments to law
enforcement leadership today.
I said that on Justin's show.
Regardless of what I do, we'reall doing this stuff.
I believe what you guys havedone with Madness Works is
actually the answer to whatwe're seeing, which is we're
seeing a lot of training but nopractice, and this will help you
(04:33):
practice.
So let me just back up.
Tell us about what theapplication does, Brian
specifically about theapplication.
Brian Ellis (04:47):
I think you really I think you got to really center
in on what the problem is forpolice, for law enforcement in
general, because you know itshould scare anybody that really
starts to dig into it.
And you know police officershave one of the most the worst
cardiac profile of anyprofession studied.
You know what we know abouthealth just human beings is
(05:07):
inflammation kills us, and youknow our immune system is
designed to have an.
You know to have that responseto injury or infection and it's
good but it's not good to be inall the time.
You know good but it's not goodto be in all the time.
(05:28):
You know overexposure to toxin,stress, poor nutrition, you
know all that stuff.
It creates this chronic issuesin our body heart disease,
depression and everything youknow maybe, and even cancer.
And so if you look at stress inlaw enforcement organizations
and this is something I studiedfor a really long time you know
police stress.
Dr Richard Ayers, going backinto the 90s, said that.
(05:50):
You know this professionsuffers a lot of stress for
countless reasons.
You know it's shift work, thenature of police work, you know
negative media exposure, but thenumber one, largest factor of
stress is organizationalenvironment.
Ok.
So how we do managementpractices is the lowest hanging
(06:13):
fruit, for you know, to reducestress.
And so when we want people toperform at their best, we want
community trust and transparencyand community oriented policing
and great customer service andall this other stuff that we say
that we want.
All the time we're not beingproactive with chronic stress
(06:33):
and how we combat it, whichleads to cynicism, emotional
detachment, reduced efficiency,absenteeism, early retirement,
excessive aggressiveness,substance abuse, ptsd, heart
attacks.
I mean it's broken.
It's broken until wefundamentally change and start
(06:57):
figuring out how we attack this.
From brain science and what weknow about the human brain is
what you repeat in the brainsticks, it's what you repeat in
the brain.
The brain greets right.
Repetition refines really howthe brain aligns our thoughts
(07:21):
and our actions.
And so, essentially,magnusworks is just a collection
of all this leadership trainingthat we've done at the command
college resiliency training,mental toughness, you know all
these different domains ofwellbeing and performance.
Cause, really, at commandcollege, we're we're, we're
chasing performance.
We think wellness and wellbeingis a by-product of performing at
(07:44):
your best, and MagnusWorks thenbecomes a gym, a gymnasium,
where we just it's repetition,man, you are what you repeatedly
think about and we put thesebite-sized bits of information
into a platform where it'seasily accessible for people,
and then we sit back and listenand we watch and listen because,
(08:07):
uh, you know, throughassessments, and those
assessments are done in ananonymous fashion.
Nope, not even our staff hasthe ability to to peel back the
layer and see who it is, because, realistically, assessments
have to come from a position ofpsychological safety in order to
be effective, because if youdon't feel safe, you're going to
(08:28):
play it safe.
You're not going to tell methat, my baby's ugly, unless you
have a complete ironcladcurtain to're able to build out
an aggregate data profile for anorganization and say, hey, this
(08:50):
is where you're hurting, thisis where you're doing well, and
let's work on the things thatneed the low-hanging fruit and
let's get better every day.
Travis Yates (09:00):
So I just want to back it up.
So, just so our audience isclear this is an app on your
phone, correct?
Brian Ellis (09:05):
Yes, so we're a platform.
We don't really like the wordapp because everybody I mean
there's a million apps out thereand the problem with an app is,
you know, it's just a passivetool.
You know we're a platform thatreally is going to integrate
into an organization.
We can take everything frombiometric data.
(09:25):
We can take the informationfrom your smartwatch and
integrate it into our system tostart seeing, you know, your
levels of stress, and we canlook at individual and
organizational issues when theycome to leadership, stress
resiliency.
You know, because all the stuffis interconnected and it's all
currently, right now, broken inour public safety.
(09:47):
You know, in our public safetyprofession.
Travis Yates (09:51):
Well, I meant it as a positive because you know
the phone is with us all thetime and so I would you know.
So they could probably get onthe computer, but the phone is
with them and it's access.
I'm sure you can do pushnotifications.
So what I love about it is isthey could go to the training or
cannot go to the training, but,as I talked with Justin about,
you're talking about blendingboth worlds.
(10:11):
You could bring them to acourse.
They meet you, they see you,they get exposed to what you do
and you leave them withsomething with them that keeps
reaching out to them each andevery day, which makes
leadership real and practicable,that keeps reaching out to them
each and every day, which makesleadership real and practicable
and, more importantly,reminding them of what it means.
And that's where I think we'remissing the boat.
There's a lot of greatleadership programs out there.
(10:33):
I mean, I've been to them allright, I got the brick.
I've been to the East Coast theWest Coast, you name the school
I partied there, right?
But does it actually stick withyou?
Right, but does it actuallystick with you?
(10:54):
And what I saw in my career?
I saw individuals constantlycoming back with nice plaques
and certificates but no action.
And so why I believe in this somuch is because, if we're going
to get to the practical, real,authentic leadership viewpoint
we talk about courageousleadership here you're going to
have to keep reaching in and out, because, as you know, brian,
this is not some natural skillthat we have Talk to us about
that.
This is a learned skill.
When you learn something, youcan't just quit learning it,
(11:16):
right.
Brian Ellis (11:18):
Yeah, it's like anything else.
I mean, what's the old sayingabout the gym?
It's use it or lose it, right,and it's no difference in
leadership.
And, trust me, I mean, we'veprobably all been in those times
where, whether we're bored orwe're not being adequately
engaged or adequately challenged, that we that, you know.
(11:38):
Sometimes, you know, we mightbe a little bit asleep on the
court.
I just had this conversationwith my daughter the other day.
Um, she's a freshman on avolleyball team and you know
it's fun watching young athletes, and especially at that, at
that time where they're turninginto that.
Hey, you know, competitionsreally mean something to me and
I really want to be a part of awinning culture and everything
(12:00):
else, and so I'm watching thisteam, like any other team, goes
through that storming, forming,norming, you know, adjoining
stages of teamwork, and Istarted making some notes and
asking my daughter somequestions, very pointed
questions on hey, who do youthink on your team is the most
competitive assertiveness,assertive person?
Who on your team do you thinkis the best athlete?
(12:20):
Think on your team is the mostcompetitive, assertiveness,
assertive person.
Who on your team you think isthe best athlete?
Who on your team is the mostskilled and coachable.
And what was interesting when Idid that with that exercise
with her, she had differentpeople in every bucket and and I
think what's fascinating aboutthat is, you know a lot of times
(12:41):
, that Fascinating about that isyou know a lot of times that
that overly competitive orassertive person ends up, you
know people, people believe thatinto well, they're the best
athlete or they're the mostskilled, and that's not really
the case.
Assertiveness is a skill.
Being competitive is, you know,is is a mindset, and if you can
be, if you're over competitive,you know you're not the best
(13:04):
athlete because you're notsharing the ball with your team.
You're not very coachablebecause you become, start
becoming an egomaniac.
So you know we got to put thesethings in the right order and
that's you got to be coachablefirst, first and foremost.
I mean you got to be a goodathlete to make the team, but
you have to be coachable first.
And then you know you've got toin order to have skill.
(13:26):
You got to, you got to do skill.
It's like that old army be no,do you have to, you have, you
have to do it.
Um, and so it requires work, itrequires intention, and that's
why the, the platform.
The app is so easy and you getin a couple of minutes every day
and it's just you know.
Put in your mind where it needsto and again, repetition,
(13:47):
refine, repetition, refines howthe brain aligns Right.
It's repetition, repetition,repetition.
Travis Yates (13:55):
Yeah, for me it'd be one of the easiest decisions
as a top leader to implementthis in an agency, but I would
assume because it helps out theindividual employees so much.
But there also has to be almosta fear factor, because, from a
top leader standpoint, you'regoing to hear things about your
agency that maybe you didn'tknow about.
Right, because, as we alwaystalk about, the higher you go up
(14:17):
in the rank system, the moreisolated you can be and the more
people around you tend to tellyou how great you are, which is
the most dangerous aspect of anyleadership.
Right, you don't need thosetype of people around you, and
so have you seen a hesitancy andhad to convince some of the
chiefs or sheriffs to basicallyunderstand what that is and said
, because a lot of them may notwant to hear what's going to be
(14:38):
said.
Brian Ellis (14:39):
But if you're not willing to hear what's going to
be said, you really can'tachieve that greatness that you
guys are trying to go for.
Yeah, and that really justcomes down.
It's an individual, yeah, wehave seen it, and I hope to
think that it's not a barrier.
I think that you know.
Again, I always say courage iscontagious, right?
(14:59):
I mean, I think once you startseeing people jumping into that
arena and saying, hey, look, I'mgoing to do this because I am
more humble and again, I want to, it's coach, it's coaching,
right, it's I want to becoachable.
I want to coach because you knowleadership needs more coaches.
(15:21):
They don't need more mentors,they don't need more people
saying, hey, this is how I didit, this is how I was successful
.
It's we need to bring out themost and the best in everyone
that that we lead, and so Ithink leaders that that
understand that and understandthat they're not perfect Nobody,
nobody in this on this planetis perfect, and you know just.
(15:43):
But when you do the right thingand when you're trying hard,
you know, nine times out of 10,people will give you a lot more
runway when things go bad,because they believe in what
you're trying to do overall.
Travis Yates (16:00):
Yeah, it gives me a lot of hope, brian, and so I
would imagine that was a heck ofa lift.
So here you are, you justretired and basically you get
this assignment from Dr Mitch.
Hey, let's put this together.
Did you know anything aboutthis type of technology when you
started?
And kind of tell us about thatprocess, because that's very
intriguing to me, for sure.
Brian Ellis (16:19):
Well, yeah, I'm a caveman when it comes to tech.
I mean, I got to be shownsomething and then I can do it.
But I've broken plenty ofmouses because just, you know,
mongo, right, you know crashingyour keyboard keys methodology,
(16:46):
and we had, you know, we had alot of bits and pieces of of of
our trainings and the thingsthat we wanted to do, and we
just really didn't have a way ofputting it all together.
So, you know, those firstcouple of months were were
really great.
I mean, even you know, even thevery first month that we
decided to do this.
You know, we, we, we did theDropbox methodology.
You know we went to marketwithout a product and we came in
runner up in a particular, youknow, bid and you know they
(17:12):
wanted our product.
We just didn't have anything toshow them and it just what it
did to us, is it?
It lit a fire under our tailsto to really go out and get
things done.
And you know, now you fastforward to.
You know, this month is ourtwo-year anniversary of like a
official out in the publiclaunch.
We had some pilots going beforethat.
(17:32):
You know we have, you know,several.
I mean I think we're up toabout 30 clients right now, a
couple of very, very largeorganizations.
It's working.
You know, with one organizationI can tell you right now we
stopped a 12-quarter trend ofstaff reductions.
(17:55):
You know we've reversed thattrend.
A 12-quarter trend, I meanwe're talking over three years,
12-quarter trend, I mean we'retalking over three years and
we've increased their leadershipparticipation in their
organization by 250%, which issignificant.
When you've got a lot to do,you need every person on your
team showing up and doing whatthey need to do, and so they're
(18:18):
leveraging that capacity.
It's fun to see.
Travis Yates (18:21):
Well, I would imagine the data that you're
gleaning from this, brian, ispretty incredible.
I mean, people can respond topretty much any question or
issue a leader would want themto know in that organization,
and it can be anonymous, correct.
Brian Ellis (18:36):
Yeah, I mean we've got we got a significant amount
of data on, you know, on officerwellness.
I mean it's been a reallyamazing journey.
I mean just thinking, forinstance, one client, which is a
rather large client.
I mean in the first 12 weekswith that client we had over
(18:58):
86,000 data points I mean.
So now we've been in businessfor two years with 30 clients.
You can only imagine just theamount of data that we're seeing
and a lot of similarities withpublic safety.
There's definitely differencesand then, of course, there's a
lot of things that definitelydifferences.
(19:20):
And then, of course, there's alot of things that we were
surprised on.
I mean, we knew that there wasa lot of stress, but one of the
fascinating things that we sawin our data is that young people
really don't particularly likeclassroom training.
You know they just they wanttraining on demand, and so that
(19:41):
really has been somethingrepeatedly seen with our younger
people within platform thatwe're like okay, well, we're
right over target on that,because we're giving them access
to skill development on demandwhen they want it, when they
need it, you know, as opposed toreadjusting their schedule
(20:03):
around and you know andeverything, all the other
challenges that come to going totraining, and I'm not saying
that classroom training is bad.
I think there's definitely aplace for it.
I think that, just likeanything else, like a good
communication strategy you knowit's repetition, it's multiple
mediums.
You know it's repetition, it'sit's multiple mediums, it's
(20:23):
really making sure that that it,that whatever it is that you're
trying to relay, is sticky.
Travis Yates (20:33):
Right, right, and that's all incredible stuff and
if you're listening from anaudience standpoint, you're
going to hear a lot more aboutMagnus Wurst and National
Command Staff College in themonths to come.
It's really phenomenal stuff.
And, brian, I want to sort ofshift here as we bring this to a
close and talk about our newpodcast.
So early September, september2nd, we launched the Bravery
Blueprint and it's anotherpodcast.
So we're going to ask everybodyto go there and follow that on
(20:55):
their platform of their choice.
They can go tothebraveryblueprintcom and
subscribe to that there as well.
We'll mix in some articles hereand there, but all the videos
from that content will be there.
But you can always go toSpotify or Apple or whatever
type that in there and follow it.
But that seems a little bitoutrageous, because you know
you're doing your thing, I'mdoing my thing, but we came
together to do this podcast, soI wanted you to sort of
(21:19):
introduce that to the audienceand kind of how that came about.
Brian Ellis (21:29):
Yeah, I mean, realistically, it's just, you
know, I think the big man putsyou in places that you really
need to be and and you know I'vealways loved the, the quote you
know you must be the changethat you know you want to see in
the world and and so you justhave to get out there and do it.
And and you know, in doing thatand in just thinking, constantly
, chewing on the things that youwant to see happen, I think
(21:53):
it's just a fate type thing thatyou know, you get aligned and
you get put in places and crosspaths with people that share
similar passions and ideas.
And that's exactly whathappened, you know, with the.
When I got to meet you I mean,we were at the same conference,
we were, you know, we wereintroduced to each other and
(22:15):
within five minutes it was like,oh man, I felt like I've known
this guy for a really long time.
And then, when I read your book, it was like we were even more
aligned than what I thought onthat particular day.
And you give two guys that areaction-first guys a mission and
(22:37):
yeah, we're going to go tear itup.
So anything that I can do tohelp our public safety.
People count me in.
Travis Yates (22:45):
Yeah, I'm excited about it.
I think there's obviouslythere's.
I think both of us wouldacknowledge that there's not too
many of us out there.
We're trying to make morepeople and more disciples.
We're trying to get the messageout and and we need to use that
synergy.
So it was really an easydecision on my part and it's
going to be a little differentformat.
You know it's.
It's much less opinionated thanpeople might be listening to.
(23:06):
This one.
It's going to bring in somereally high-end leaders, some
guests that you have heard aboutand some guests maybe you
haven't heard about, and we'llbe interviewing them every
couple of weeks, and I thinkit's going to be more of a
long-form podcast, probably,than we're used to.
If you're listening to thispodcast, it's going to be maybe
even an hour hour and a half.
(23:26):
On some of them, we're going toreally dive a lot deeper into
some issues.
You're going to meet somereally neat people.
Brian, I saw your list ofpotential guests and I'm excited
about talking to them.
So between both of us, we'regoing to be able to bring some
pretty cool people in.
So I just want to encourageeverybody.
I know everybody's busy andyou're listening, but, man,
(23:52):
every couple of weeks, you'regoing to get a fantastic episode
.
Just type in the braveryblueprint at your favorite
podcast platform, go straight tothe website If you like the
bravery blueprintcom and I wouldlike to see other things come
out of that.
You're as you're listening tothis, you're getting in on the
early end, but I could see us,brian, rolling out some courses
and even a book talking aboutthat, because what we're trying
to do is we're trying to moldgreatness, which is better than
great, which is what Magnus is,and then, of course, courage,
(24:13):
which put all that together,just kind of synergistically,
putting these philosophiestogether that are kind of one in
the same, with a little bit ofa different talking points on
each side.
But put those together andwe'll see what happens.
Brian Ellis (24:26):
I love it.
Thunder and lightning rightyeah.
Travis Yates (24:29):
Well, man, I thank you so much for being here.
I hope my audience will spreadthis around with you and Justin
and Dr Mitch and everybody thereat the Command and Staff
College.
I'm very, very grateful to bejust to talk to you and to see
what you're doing.
If you truly want to see lawenforcement leadership excel
beyond your wildest imagination,you need to check these guys
(24:53):
out, Brian.
Where can they contact you andthe Command College?
Brian Ellis (24:57):
Yeah, so Command College is wwwcommandcollegeorg,
and MagnusWorks ismagnusworkscom and that's
M-A-G-N-U-S-W-O-R-Xcom.
Uh, love, yeah Love, tocollaborate with, uh, with, with
anybody listening.
Uh, you know, shoot us uh somesuggestions for for folks, or
(25:20):
maybe even, uh, you know, submityour own story.
Uh, that you know again, uh, wejust need to elevate leadership
, elevate leadership and kind ofrid a lot of stress and things
that impact this profession,this noble profession that the
community most desperately needs.
Travis Yates (25:39):
Thanks so much, brian.
If you've been listening oryou've been watching, thank you
for taking the time out of yourday to do that, and just
remember to lead on and staycourageous.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Thank you for listening to Courageous
Leadership with Travis Yates.
We invite you to join othercourageous leaders at www.
travisyatesorg.
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates,
where leaders find the insights,advice and encouragement they
need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates (00:12):
Welcome back to the show and I'm so excited to
bring you today's guest.
His name is Brian Ellis.
You've probably heard of himbefore.
Let me tell you who he is.
He's the Chief ExperienceOfficer at the National Command
College and Magnus Works andhe's the co-author of the Theory
of Magnus Ovea, a GeneralTheory of Human Performance and
(00:32):
Wellbeing.
Both Brian and I just releaseda new podcast called the Bravery
Blueprint that you're going tohear about here, and we're going
to give you the links to it inthe show notes.
But, brian Ellis, thanks forbeing on with Courageous
Leadership.
How are you doing, sir?
Thanks, brother, I'm doing well.
So, man, a lot of peopleprobably are familiar with you,
(00:53):
brian.
You're doing a lot of coolstuff in the industry.
Obviously, you're focused in onleadership and wellness, all
things that go with that.
Just sort of give our audiencea quick summary of how you got
here, kind of your career,because you're retired law
enforcement and work us up totoday.
Brian Ellis (01:06):
Yeah, essentially it's.
You know, I think my work atCommand College of Magnus Works
is just an extension of mypolice service and that's you
know.
I took an oath to protect andserve and you know, quite
frankly, nothing's given me morejoy than to serve those who
serve.
And we got a lot.
(01:27):
We got a big road ahead of us.
We've got a tall mountain toclimb.
I mean, and some of thestatistics around you know,
leadership and performance andpolice organizations is quite
frightening and and we got to dosomething about it frightening
(01:48):
and and we got to do somethingabout it.
Travis Yates (01:49):
Yeah, so you retired and you jumped in full
steam with the National Commandand Staff College.
Tell us how that relationshiphappened and some of the things
that you're doing.
Brian Ellis (01:55):
Yeah, so I, you know, I've been working for the
for command college for about adecade.
So I've I, you know, I think Iwas in a master's program when I
was first introduced to DrJavidi and his crew and they
asked me to do some writing forthem and I said you got the
wrong guy.
I'm not really not a writer notinterested in writing.
And they encouraged me oversome time to essentially write
(02:19):
my first article.
And then, you know, kind ofonce you stumble through
something, you know, once you'vedone something difficult,
you're like, oh, that wasn't sobad and yeah, I mean, it started
this side hustle, so to speak,of just researching me to
(02:53):
working for command college forquite some time.
And then, as I was nearingretirement, dr Chavitti you know
Mitch, basically just said, heylook, I've got this idea, and
it was an idea on a napkin.
And you know he said leadershiptraining is just not enough,
it's just not doing what youknow, there's too much that's
(03:17):
needed and we really can't justput that many people in
classrooms.
So that led to us building outMagnus Works and where we're at
today.
Travis Yates (03:29):
Yeah, I had Justin King on the show a few weeks
ago.
So if you're listening to thisnow and you haven't heard Justin
King's interview, go back tothat after this episode.
It'll give you a lot of context.
On the National Command staffcalls, Justin is involved on the
training at a high level and Italked briefly with Justin about
Magnus Works, Brian and you'rethe brainchild behind that.
By the way, every great ideastarts off on a napkin.
(03:49):
I got a whole bunch of napkinsback here in my drawer that I
haven't got anybody like Brianinvolved in it.
So I'm sure Dr Mitch was verypleased that you took that and
ran with it.
So I want to just brieflyexplain to our audience that
maybe haven't listened toJustin's podcast yet.
Tell us exactly what theapplication is.
And then I want to get into howthis retired cop from
(04:10):
California got with this crazyDr Mitch guy and they made what
I believe is one of the mostimportant instruments to law
enforcement leadership today.
I said that on Justin's show.
Regardless of what I do, we'reall doing this stuff.
I believe what you guys havedone with Madness Works is
actually the answer to whatwe're seeing, which is we're
seeing a lot of training but nopractice, and this will help you
(04:33):
practice.
So let me just back up.
Tell us about what theapplication does, Brian
specifically about theapplication.
Brian Ellis (04:47):
I think you really I think you got to really center
in on what the problem is forpolice, for law enforcement in
general, because you know itshould scare anybody that really
starts to dig into it.
And you know police officershave one of the most the worst
cardiac profile of anyprofession studied.
You know what we know abouthealth just human beings is
(05:07):
inflammation kills us, and youknow our immune system is
designed to have an.
You know to have that responseto injury or infection and it's
good but it's not good to be inall the time.
You know good but it's not goodto be in all the time.
(05:28):
You know overexposure to toxin,stress, poor nutrition, you
know all that stuff.
It creates this chronic issuesin our body heart disease,
depression and everything youknow maybe, and even cancer.
And so if you look at stress inlaw enforcement organizations
and this is something I studiedfor a really long time you know
police stress.
Dr Richard Ayers, going backinto the 90s, said that.
(05:50):
You know this professionsuffers a lot of stress for
countless reasons.
You know it's shift work, thenature of police work, you know
negative media exposure, but thenumber one, largest factor of
stress is organizationalenvironment.
Ok.
So how we do managementpractices is the lowest hanging
(06:13):
fruit, for you know, to reducestress.
And so when we want people toperform at their best, we want
community trust and transparencyand community oriented policing
and great customer service andall this other stuff that we say
that we want.
All the time we're not beingproactive with chronic stress
(06:33):
and how we combat it, whichleads to cynicism, emotional
detachment, reduced efficiency,absenteeism, early retirement,
excessive aggressiveness,substance abuse, ptsd, heart
attacks.
I mean it's broken.
It's broken until wefundamentally change and start
(06:57):
figuring out how we attack this.
From brain science and what weknow about the human brain is
what you repeat in the brainsticks, it's what you repeat in
the brain.
The brain greets right.
Repetition refines really howthe brain aligns our thoughts
(07:21):
and our actions.
And so, essentially,magnusworks is just a collection
of all this leadership trainingthat we've done at the command
college resiliency training,mental toughness, you know all
these different domains ofwellbeing and performance.
Cause, really, at commandcollege, we're we're, we're
chasing performance.
We think wellness and wellbeingis a by-product of performing at
(07:44):
your best, and MagnusWorks thenbecomes a gym, a gymnasium,
where we just it's repetition,man, you are what you repeatedly
think about and we put thesebite-sized bits of information
into a platform where it'seasily accessible for people,
and then we sit back and listenand we watch and listen because,
(08:07):
uh, you know, throughassessments, and those
assessments are done in ananonymous fashion.
Nope, not even our staff hasthe ability to to peel back the
layer and see who it is, because, realistically, assessments
have to come from a position ofpsychological safety in order to
be effective, because if youdon't feel safe, you're going to
(08:28):
play it safe.
You're not going to tell methat, my baby's ugly, unless you
have a complete ironcladcurtain to're able to build out
an aggregate data profile for anorganization and say, hey, this
(08:50):
is where you're hurting, thisis where you're doing well, and
let's work on the things thatneed the low-hanging fruit and
let's get better every day.
Travis Yates (09:00):
So I just want to back it up.
So, just so our audience isclear this is an app on your
phone, correct?
Brian Ellis (09:05):
Yes, so we're a platform.
We don't really like the wordapp because everybody I mean
there's a million apps out thereand the problem with an app is,
you know, it's just a passivetool.
You know we're a platform thatreally is going to integrate
into an organization.
We can take everything frombiometric data.
(09:25):
We can take the informationfrom your smartwatch and
integrate it into our system tostart seeing, you know, your
levels of stress, and we canlook at individual and
organizational issues when theycome to leadership, stress
resiliency.
You know, because all the stuffis interconnected and it's all
currently, right now, broken inour public safety.
(09:47):
You know, in our public safetyprofession.
Travis Yates (09:51):
Well, I meant it as a positive because you know
the phone is with us all thetime and so I would you know.
So they could probably get onthe computer, but the phone is
with them and it's access.
I'm sure you can do pushnotifications.
So what I love about it is isthey could go to the training or
cannot go to the training, but,as I talked with Justin about,
you're talking about blendingboth worlds.
(10:11):
You could bring them to acourse.
They meet you, they see you,they get exposed to what you do
and you leave them withsomething with them that keeps
reaching out to them each andevery day, which makes
leadership real and practicable,that keeps reaching out to them
each and every day, which makesleadership real and practicable
and, more importantly,reminding them of what it means.
And that's where I think we'remissing the boat.
There's a lot of greatleadership programs out there.
(10:33):
I mean, I've been to them allright, I got the brick.
I've been to the East Coast theWest Coast, you name the school
I partied there, right?
But does it actually stick withyou?
Right, but does it actuallystick with you?
(10:54):
And what I saw in my career?
I saw individuals constantlycoming back with nice plaques
and certificates but no action.
And so why I believe in this somuch is because, if we're going
to get to the practical, real,authentic leadership viewpoint
we talk about courageousleadership here you're going to
have to keep reaching in and out, because, as you know, brian,
this is not some natural skillthat we have Talk to us about
that.
This is a learned skill.
When you learn something, youcan't just quit learning it,
(11:16):
right.
Brian Ellis (11:18):
Yeah, it's like anything else.
I mean, what's the old sayingabout the gym?
It's use it or lose it, right,and it's no difference in
leadership.
And, trust me, I mean, we'veprobably all been in those times
where, whether we're bored orwe're not being adequately
engaged or adequately challenged, that we that, you know.
(11:38):
Sometimes, you know, we mightbe a little bit asleep on the
court.
I just had this conversationwith my daughter the other day.
Um, she's a freshman on avolleyball team and you know
it's fun watching young athletes, and especially at that, at
that time where they're turninginto that.
Hey, you know, competitionsreally mean something to me and
I really want to be a part of awinning culture and everything
(12:00):
else, and so I'm watching thisteam, like any other team, goes
through that storming, forming,norming, you know, adjoining
stages of teamwork, and Istarted making some notes and
asking my daughter somequestions, very pointed
questions on hey, who do youthink on your team is the most
competitive assertiveness,assertive person?
Who on your team do you thinkis the best athlete?
(12:20):
Think on your team is the mostcompetitive, assertiveness,
assertive person.
Who on your team you think isthe best athlete?
Who on your team is the mostskilled and coachable.
And what was interesting when Idid that with that exercise
with her, she had differentpeople in every bucket and and I
think what's fascinating aboutthat is, you know a lot of times
(12:41):
, that Fascinating about that isyou know a lot of times that
that overly competitive orassertive person ends up, you
know people, people believe thatinto well, they're the best
athlete or they're the mostskilled, and that's not really
the case.
Assertiveness is a skill.
Being competitive is, you know,is is a mindset, and if you can
be, if you're over competitive,you know you're not the best
(13:04):
athlete because you're notsharing the ball with your team.
You're not very coachablebecause you become, start
becoming an egomaniac.
So you know we got to put thesethings in the right order and
that's you got to be coachablefirst, first and foremost.
I mean you got to be a goodathlete to make the team, but
you have to be coachable first.
And then you know you've got toin order to have skill.
(13:26):
You got to, you got to do skill.
It's like that old army be no,do you have to, you have, you
have to do it.
Um, and so it requires work, itrequires intention, and that's
why the, the platform.
The app is so easy and you getin a couple of minutes every day
and it's just you know.
Put in your mind where it needsto and again, repetition,
(13:47):
refine, repetition, refines howthe brain aligns Right.
It's repetition, repetition,repetition.
Travis Yates (13:55):
Yeah, for me it'd be one of the easiest decisions
as a top leader to implementthis in an agency, but I would
assume because it helps out theindividual employees so much.
But there also has to be almosta fear factor, because, from a
top leader standpoint, you'regoing to hear things about your
agency that maybe you didn'tknow about.
Right, because, as we alwaystalk about, the higher you go up
(14:17):
in the rank system, the moreisolated you can be and the more
people around you tend to tellyou how great you are, which is
the most dangerous aspect of anyleadership.
Right, you don't need thosetype of people around you, and
so have you seen a hesitancy andhad to convince some of the
chiefs or sheriffs to basicallyunderstand what that is and said
, because a lot of them may notwant to hear what's going to be
(14:38):
said.
Brian Ellis (14:39):
But if you're not willing to hear what's going to
be said, you really can'tachieve that greatness that you
guys are trying to go for.
Yeah, and that really justcomes down.
It's an individual, yeah, wehave seen it, and I hope to
think that it's not a barrier.
I think that you know.
Again, I always say courage iscontagious, right?
(14:59):
I mean, I think once you startseeing people jumping into that
arena and saying, hey, look, I'mgoing to do this because I am
more humble and again, I want to, it's coach, it's coaching,
right, it's I want to becoachable.
I want to coach because you knowleadership needs more coaches.
(15:21):
They don't need more mentors,they don't need more people
saying, hey, this is how I didit, this is how I was successful
.
It's we need to bring out themost and the best in everyone
that that we lead, and so Ithink leaders that that
understand that and understandthat they're not perfect Nobody,
nobody in this on this planetis perfect, and you know just.
(15:43):
But when you do the right thingand when you're trying hard,
you know, nine times out of 10,people will give you a lot more
runway when things go bad,because they believe in what
you're trying to do overall.
Travis Yates (16:00):
Yeah, it gives me a lot of hope, brian, and so I
would imagine that was a heck ofa lift.
So here you are, you justretired and basically you get
this assignment from Dr Mitch.
Hey, let's put this together.
Did you know anything aboutthis type of technology when you
started?
And kind of tell us about thatprocess, because that's very
intriguing to me, for sure.
Brian Ellis (16:19):
Well, yeah, I'm a caveman when it comes to tech.
I mean, I got to be shownsomething and then I can do it.
But I've broken plenty ofmouses because just, you know,
mongo, right, you know crashingyour keyboard keys methodology,
(16:46):
and we had, you know, we had alot of bits and pieces of of of
our trainings and the thingsthat we wanted to do, and we
just really didn't have a way ofputting it all together.
So, you know, those firstcouple of months were were
really great.
I mean, even you know, even thevery first month that we
decided to do this.
You know, we, we, we did theDropbox methodology.
You know we went to marketwithout a product and we came in
runner up in a particular, youknow, bid and you know they
(17:12):
wanted our product.
We just didn't have anything toshow them and it just what it
did to us, is it?
It lit a fire under our tailsto to really go out and get
things done.
And you know, now you fastforward to.
You know, this month is ourtwo-year anniversary of like a
official out in the publiclaunch.
We had some pilots going beforethat.
(17:32):
You know we have, you know,several.
I mean I think we're up toabout 30 clients right now, a
couple of very, very largeorganizations.
It's working.
You know, with one organizationI can tell you right now we
stopped a 12-quarter trend ofstaff reductions.
(17:55):
You know we've reversed thattrend.
A 12-quarter trend, I meanwe're talking over three years,
12-quarter trend, I mean we'retalking over three years and
we've increased their leadershipparticipation in their
organization by 250%, which issignificant.
When you've got a lot to do,you need every person on your
team showing up and doing whatthey need to do, and so they're
(18:18):
leveraging that capacity.
It's fun to see.
Travis Yates (18:21):
Well, I would imagine the data that you're
gleaning from this, brian, ispretty incredible.
I mean, people can respond topretty much any question or
issue a leader would want themto know in that organization,
and it can be anonymous, correct.
Brian Ellis (18:36):
Yeah, I mean we've got we got a significant amount
of data on, you know, on officerwellness.
I mean it's been a reallyamazing journey.
I mean just thinking, forinstance, one client, which is a
rather large client.
I mean in the first 12 weekswith that client we had over
(18:58):
86,000 data points I mean.
So now we've been in businessfor two years with 30 clients.
You can only imagine just theamount of data that we're seeing
and a lot of similarities withpublic safety.
There's definitely differencesand then, of course, there's a
lot of things that definitelydifferences.
(19:20):
And then, of course, there's alot of things that we were
surprised on.
I mean, we knew that there wasa lot of stress, but one of the
fascinating things that we sawin our data is that young people
really don't particularly likeclassroom training.
You know they just they wanttraining on demand, and so that
(19:41):
really has been somethingrepeatedly seen with our younger
people within platform thatwe're like okay, well, we're
right over target on that,because we're giving them access
to skill development on demandwhen they want it, when they
need it, you know, as opposed toreadjusting their schedule
(20:03):
around and you know andeverything, all the other
challenges that come to going totraining, and I'm not saying
that classroom training is bad.
I think there's definitely aplace for it.
I think that, just likeanything else, like a good
communication strategy you knowit's repetition, it's multiple
mediums.
You know it's repetition, it'sit's multiple mediums, it's
(20:23):
really making sure that that it,that whatever it is that you're
trying to relay, is sticky.
Travis Yates (20:33):
Right, right, and that's all incredible stuff and
if you're listening from anaudience standpoint, you're
going to hear a lot more aboutMagnus Wurst and National
Command Staff College in themonths to come.
It's really phenomenal stuff.
And, brian, I want to sort ofshift here as we bring this to a
close and talk about our newpodcast.
So early September, september2nd, we launched the Bravery
Blueprint and it's anotherpodcast.
So we're going to ask everybodyto go there and follow that on
(20:55):
their platform of their choice.
They can go tothebraveryblueprintcom and
subscribe to that there as well.
We'll mix in some articles hereand there, but all the videos
from that content will be there.
But you can always go toSpotify or Apple or whatever
type that in there and follow it.
But that seems a little bitoutrageous, because you know
you're doing your thing, I'mdoing my thing, but we came
together to do this podcast, soI wanted you to sort of
(21:19):
introduce that to the audienceand kind of how that came about.
Brian Ellis (21:29):
Yeah, I mean, realistically, it's just, you
know, I think the big man putsyou in places that you really
need to be and and you know I'vealways loved the, the quote you
know you must be the changethat you know you want to see in
the world and and so you justhave to get out there and do it.
And and you know, in doing thatand in just thinking, constantly
, chewing on the things that youwant to see happen, I think
(21:53):
it's just a fate type thing thatyou know, you get aligned and
you get put in places and crosspaths with people that share
similar passions and ideas.
And that's exactly whathappened, you know, with the.
When I got to meet you I mean,we were at the same conference,
we were, you know, we wereintroduced to each other and
(22:15):
within five minutes it was like,oh man, I felt like I've known
this guy for a really long time.
And then, when I read your book, it was like we were even more
aligned than what I thought onthat particular day.
And you give two guys that areaction-first guys a mission and
(22:37):
yeah, we're going to go tear itup.
So anything that I can do tohelp our public safety.
People count me in.
Travis Yates (22:45):
Yeah, I'm excited about it.
I think there's obviouslythere's.
I think both of us wouldacknowledge that there's not too
many of us out there.
We're trying to make morepeople and more disciples.
We're trying to get the messageout and and we need to use that
synergy.
So it was really an easydecision on my part and it's
going to be a little differentformat.
You know it's.
It's much less opinionated thanpeople might be listening to.
(23:06):
This one.
It's going to bring in somereally high-end leaders, some
guests that you have heard aboutand some guests maybe you
haven't heard about, and we'llbe interviewing them every
couple of weeks, and I thinkit's going to be more of a
long-form podcast, probably,than we're used to.
If you're listening to thispodcast, it's going to be maybe
even an hour hour and a half.
(23:26):
On some of them, we're going toreally dive a lot deeper into
some issues.
You're going to meet somereally neat people.
Brian, I saw your list ofpotential guests and I'm excited
about talking to them.
So between both of us, we'regoing to be able to bring some
pretty cool people in.
So I just want to encourageeverybody.
I know everybody's busy andyou're listening, but, man,
(23:52):
every couple of weeks, you'regoing to get a fantastic episode
.
Just type in the braveryblueprint at your favorite
podcast platform, go straight tothe website If you like the
bravery blueprintcom and I wouldlike to see other things come
out of that.
You're as you're listening tothis, you're getting in on the
early end, but I could see us,brian, rolling out some courses
and even a book talking aboutthat, because what we're trying
to do is we're trying to moldgreatness, which is better than
great, which is what Magnus is,and then, of course, courage,
(24:13):
which put all that together,just kind of synergistically,
putting these philosophiestogether that are kind of one in
the same, with a little bit ofa different talking points on
each side.
But put those together andwe'll see what happens.
Brian Ellis (24:26):
I love it.
Thunder and lightning rightyeah.
Travis Yates (24:29):
Well, man, I thank you so much for being here.
I hope my audience will spreadthis around with you and Justin
and Dr Mitch and everybody thereat the Command and Staff
College.
I'm very, very grateful to bejust to talk to you and to see
what you're doing.
If you truly want to see lawenforcement leadership excel
beyond your wildest imagination,you need to check these guys
(24:53):
out, Brian.
Where can they contact you andthe Command College?
Brian Ellis (24:57):
Yeah, so Command College is wwwcommandcollegeorg,
and MagnusWorks ismagnusworkscom and that's
M-A-G-N-U-S-W-O-R-Xcom.
Uh, love, yeah Love, tocollaborate with, uh, with, with
anybody listening.
Uh, you know, shoot us uh somesuggestions for for folks, or
(25:20):
maybe even, uh, you know, submityour own story.
Uh, that you know again, uh, wejust need to elevate leadership
, elevate leadership and kind ofrid a lot of stress and things
that impact this profession,this noble profession that the
community most desperately needs.
Travis Yates (25:39):
Thanks so much, brian.
If you've been listening oryou've been watching, thank you
for taking the time out of yourday to do that, and just
remember to lead on and staycourageous.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Thank you for listening to Courageous
Leadership with Travis Yates.
We invite you to join othercourageous leaders at www.
travisyatesorg.
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