October 21, 2024 • 45 mins
Justin Carlson, a former detective turned private investigator, shares his gripping journey from the frontlines of law enforcement to the helm of his own firm, Carlson Solutions PI. Growing up in a family with a storied legacy in policing, Justin's early passion led him to start his career at just 18 in the bustling Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex. With an impressive 15-year career tackling some of the toughest cases—like child sex crimes and homicides—he's now channeling his fervor for justice into private investigations and his thought-provoking podcast, Failing Justice.
In an era where law enforcement faces immense scrutiny, Justin bravely discusses the challenges of standing against corruption within the ranks. He shares personal anecdotes of navigating the murky waters of misconduct, the courage required to plan strategic exits, and the vital role leadership plays in promoting ethical behavior. Highlighting the dire need for integrity and accountability, Justin emphasizes how leaders can nurture environments of trust and transparency, which are crucial for public confidence in policing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Justin Carlson (00:00):
And there were little things.
You know change of assignments,you know things like that.
That started happening but, man, I was cautious.
I was cautious because I hadseen it time and time again.
Again, it had never happened tome, but I had seen plenty of
(00:20):
colleagues in my own agency andacross the country that it
happened to.
So I knew what was going totake place and that's why I
planned my strategic exit, andyou know, to this very day.
You know, there was a time, man, when I was doing this, there
was a time that I thought I wasgoing to be indicted.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates,
where leaders find the insights,advice and encouragement they
need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates (00:51):
Welcome back to the show.
I'm so honored that you'vedecided to spend a few minutes
with us here today, and we'revery honored to have a sponsor
for today's episodeOfficerPrivacycom.
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(01:14):
a mouse?
So OfficerPrivacy.
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I'm also a member.
It's been tremendous for me andmy family.
If you believe in officersafety, you should also believe
in officer safety at home aswell.
Check them out atOfficerPrivacy.
com.
I am super excited about today'sguest.
Today's guest is Justin Carlson.
He's a former detective andowner at the Carlson Solutions
(01:36):
PI firm.
He's the founder of FailingJustice, one of the best
podcasts dedicated to thecriminal justice system that you
will find podcast dedicated tothe criminal justice system that
you will find, and Justin isalso at the tip of the spear
when it comes to a balance ofjustice and individual rights.
I'm really excited to have youhere, justin.
How are you doing, sir?
Justin Carlson (01:53):
Travis, I'm good man.
I am and I'm honored to be onthe show man.
I appreciate that.
Travis Yates (02:00):
Man, I've been intending to get you on for a
while.
You've been a busy guy.
I love your background, I lovewhat you do out there.
We're going to get into allthat, but before that, I mean
obviously you have a backgroundin law enforcement.
You're doing things in thecriminal justice system now,
including your PI firm.
You do background checks foragencies for pre-hire super
important work.
But what got you interested inlaw enforcement?
Justin Carlson (02:32):
Tell us a little bit about your career.
Yeah, so I actually startedwhen I was 18 years old.
I come from a background of lawenforcement.
The only active member of myfamily still in law enforcement
now is my uncle, but he's achief deputy in Smith County,
texas.
But I come from a background inlaw enforcement, my aunts, both
my grandfathers from abackground in law enforcement,
my aunts, both my grandfathers.
My dad, he was law enforcementfor a little while for the
undercover narcotics and forArkansas State Police, and so I
(02:57):
just grew up around it.
You know, I was that kid thatwatched cops on TV.
I was that kid that went up tothe jail, got to ride in the
backseat of patrol cars, whichyou know you got to question the
parenting on that of howunsanitary that is.
But I just I grew up around it,man.
And then my dad became apreacher.
So I'm also a PK.
(03:18):
But you know, I think for awhile my dad probably wanted me
to go in the ministry, and for awhile my dad probably wanted me
to go in the ministry and but Iwas just.
I wanted to be a cop.
And so when I was 18, I startedmy career in the Dallas-Fort
Worth Metroplex, at the BedfordPolice Department, and I just
worked in the jail.
I knew that, you know, from thetime I was 18 to 21, I had to
(03:40):
do, I had to work in the jail.
So I did three years in thejail, which was most certainly a
good, solid foundation for whenI went to the police academy
when I was 21.
And so then I went to graduatethe police I was 20, actually,
but I graduated when I was 21.
And then I hit the streets.
(04:01):
Hit the streets running man.
I was where I wanted to be.
I knew that was my place and,of course, over the years I grew
up through the ranks you know,went into CID, worked in, you
know, did some white collarstuff for a little while.
I specialized in child sexcrimes, child physical abuse and
(04:25):
then eventually went on to dohomicides and I did some
administration time during thoseyears.
But I did a total of 15 years.
I stepped away for a little bit, came back.
I wasn't quite certain and sureof myself when I stepped away.
I wanted to dip my toe back inand try again, but then I
(04:47):
realized, you know, I was betteroff in the private sector,
which is where I'm at now and Ido a lot of.
I like what you said when youintroduced me to me that was a
very accurate introduction is Ibelieve that I have a
well-balanced.
Well, I'm very, I'm very wellbalanced when it comes to
(05:10):
criminal justice system.
I'm also, you know, a lot ofpeople think if, if some people
listen to some of the things Isay, especially police officers,
they think, oh my gosh, youknow this guy doesn't like
police, but that's that's thefurthest from the truth.
I mean, some of my best friendsare still cops.
I love police officers, I lovelaw enforcement, but, like you
(05:31):
said, I also have a on the onthe other side of the scale.
I believe in individual rights,in the Constitution and that
law enforcement should behave.
So I do.
I love the way that youintroduced me and put that when
when you said that I feel like Iam pretty well balanced.
But in short, in a nutshell,that's that's kind of how my
(05:51):
career played out.
Travis Yates (05:54):
Well it's.
It's so interesting, Justin,because if you care about law
enforcement, then you want tohave the best law enforcement
you possibly can.
Right, we do so much.
We listen to people that don'tknow anything about this
profession that tries to fix usright, and of course, they just
throw these ideas on the walland anybody living in America in
2024 knows that didn't workright.
We have a recruiting crisis, aretention crisis.
(06:17):
Our crime rate, especially ourviolent crime rate, despite what
Washington DC tells us, iscompletely out of control
because they conveniently letthe FBI not report about 50
percent of that violent crimefor this election year politics,
and so we, everybody livinghere understands that, and
nobody's really pinpointing whythat's happened.
But part of the reason that'shappened is because we are
listening to people outside theprofession.
(06:37):
They're demanding us to getbetter and we're just listening
to them versus us, who know howwe can get better, and you
touched on it.
We should be constitutionallyfocused, focused on the mission,
focused on not just customerservice but individual rights,
and you can do all of that andfight crime at the same time,
and you, very fortunately, aresort of a lone voice to some of
(06:59):
that.
Why do you think you've gottensome of that backlash you talked
about you've gotten some ofthat backlash you talked about.
Justin Carlson (07:09):
Well, to make a another long story short, um,
there were some things that Ifaced when I was working major
crimes, um, and those people cango listen my podcast that
they'd like I won't tell thewhole story, but there was some
corruption that fell in my lapand you know, I was actually.
I was actually at the time man,I was your, I was your soldier,
(07:30):
I was the guy who just showedup, wanted to do a good job,
wanted to put bad guys in jailfor doing bad things to children
, you know, and murdering people.
And so when this stuff fellinto my lap, I was just man, I
was flabbergasted, I didn't knowexactly how to handle it.
And then, when I tried tohandle it the right way and give
(07:54):
it to the people that shouldhave taken it and done the right
thing, they didn't.
They tried to cover a lot of itup, and so that's kind of what
opened my eyes to the other sideof the criminal legal system.
So that's when I decided to getout and when I, when I was able
(08:19):
to leave my agency again, itwasn't something I wanted to do.
Leave my agency Again, it wasn'tsomething I wanted to do.
I thought I was going to be acop for the rest of my life and
that's you know.
But I believe that you knowthere's a God above who puts
pieces in place for a reason,and I think this was my journey.
(08:40):
But when I decided to leave lawenforcement, I feel like I had
more of a voice right, and whichis crazy.
When you think about that, it'stotally backwards.
You should, even if you're inlaw enforcement, you should, be
able to speak on what's rightand what's just and not be in
fear of your career being lostand character assassination and
(09:04):
service credit assassination.
But you know, that's besidesthe point.
When I left, I started speakingon these things, which is what
prompted me to start failingjustice, and that's that was
kind of the long way around toget to what you asked me.
But why do I think I receivedsome of the backlash?
(09:26):
Because it was.
It was during that time that Ireceived I mean, I still see
received backlash to this day,but it was during that time that
it was really heightenedbecause, um, I was exposing
those that were police officers,that were police administrators
, for malfeasance, behavior,things that shouldn't have been
(09:48):
happening, and those that wereattached to those police
officers, those that wereattached to those administrators
.
It ended up all being political.
In the end, everything's got tobe attached to something
political.
But the backlash was because Iwas speaking of of hey, this,
this is not okay.
(10:09):
We are police officers, thepublic puts their trust in us
and we are supposed to be goodstewards of that trust.
And, yeah, man, I mean I justthink that, uh, and it's again.
It's so backwards because thepolice officers, those in law
(10:32):
enforcement, are the ones thatare supposed to be doing the
right things, and we see it allthe time Thanks to social media,
so so often they aren't theones that are doing what they're
supposed to be doing.
And that transcends not justcorruption and misconduct.
I mean that transcends into.
I mean, look what yourplatform's built on leadership.
(10:52):
I mean you've been on mypodcast, we've talked about this
.
That transcends not justcorruption and misconduct.
I think everything begins withleadership, because if you have
poor leadership, then you openthe door for everything else,
such as misconduct andcorruption, and the list goes on
and on, such as misconduct andcorruption, and the list goes on
(11:12):
and on and it trickles down.
Travis Yates (11:15):
Yeah, I'm going to make a statement that may be
surprising, but I don't think wehave a corruption problem.
I think we have a leadershipproblem, because bad actors in
any profession is not unique.
Right, you could name theprofession.
You have bad actors, but how doleaders deal with that?
That's the answer, right.
We're not looking for a perfectprofession.
Do leaders deal with that?
That's the answer, right.
We're not looking for a perfectprofession.
We're looking for a professionthat deals with bad actors,
whether it's the school teachersor the ministers and the
(11:37):
scandals all over the CEO worldwe know of.
Well, how do you deal with that?
And typically, organizationsget destroyed when they don't
deal with it properly.
I think most people understand,justin, I don't expect
perfection, but what I do expectis leaders do what leaders need
to do when that imperfectionoccurs.
And so what you just describedto me is we talked to a lot of
(11:58):
guests that deal with.
What you dealt with is you weredisillusioned at some point in
your career when you thoughtthis career was full of great,
courageous men and women doingthe right thing at all levels,
and you went face to face withcowardice, right, but you did
something that so many don't doand I want to sort of dive into
(12:18):
the bottom of that.
You didn't know this was like apodcast on psychology, but I'm
so curious on why you're aunicorn and why you rose up, you
confronted it while everyonearound you put their head down
as those loyal soldiers and justkept moving.
So what is it about you?
And, by the way, before we getto that I'm going to come back
to that I want to sort of tellour audience what.
(12:40):
I don't know what happened toyou when this happened, but I
talked to so many people thathas been through what you've
done.
When they stand up to cowards,so cowards have some elements
and ammunition at their side.
They have internal affairs,they have fellow soldiers that
will assassinate your character,your reputation, and they'll
use their internal affairs unitto literally try to destroy you,
combined with characterassassination to get you out of
(13:02):
the profession.
So when you confronted this,did the investigation start
almost immediately on you?
Justin Carlson (13:08):
Well, so I was.
I was a little bit smartactually.
Um, I read the writing on thewall.
I knew so, so, so this was whenI say it was political, it was
so political.
I mean, we're talking districtattorneys, judges, police chiefs
, judges, police chiefs, uh, youknow, district judges, county
(13:32):
judges, mayors, city council Uh,I mean, it was so embedded.
At the time I hadn't, I had noidea, but when I, in summary,
they were trying to put a kid injail that shouldn't have been
in jail.
Um, it was a case that I workedand the, the, the, the kid that
they were putting it, they weretrying to lock up.
Um, it was a case that I workedand that the, the, the kid that
they were putting it, they weretrying to lock up.
(13:52):
Um, I, I did not implicate thatkid in my investigation, um,
because I believed he wasinnocent.
Um, and I had several things tocorroborate that.
So the mom of the kid that Iwas trying, that they were
trying to lock up, had arelationship, a friendship, with
(14:18):
the mayor and all these otherpolitical parties, all these
other public officials.
They didn't like thatrelationship and I didn't know
this was going on.
Man, again, I'm just the guyinvestigating.
Travis Yates (14:30):
You're just doing the case, presenting the
evidence and expecting everybodyto do the right thing.
Justin Carlson (14:35):
Had no clue, and so I, once I saw how big it was
, I I decided OK, you know Ihave two choices, you know I
have two choices.
I can.
(15:03):
I can sit here and I knowwhat's going to come if I do
something while I'm stillemployed, because I knew exactly
what was going to happen.
Or I could leave.
And so over a period of, I didgo toe to toe with the DA.
I did go toe to toe with the DA, and that that's that's what
started.
That's when I knew thatsomething was eventually going
(15:25):
to happen, because the DA hadthe power.
Again, this is the this is thesame DA, by the way, that has
upheld Robert Robertson'sexecution warrant in Texas right
now.
But that's besides the point.
I decided that I needed toleave.
So over a period of three orfour months, I started
(15:48):
formulating my own plan, andthat plan was to start a
business in the private sector,and I had to do it cautiously
and carefully.
But I did do that and I left.
I put in my two weeks notice.
They had no clue it was coming.
They had no clue.
I was building my business, butI wasn't going to let what
happened go because they weretrying to put somebody.
(16:10):
They were trying to locksomebody up that was innocent,
and so I put in my two weeksnotice and they let me work my
two weeks notice every bit ofthat two week notice.
And when I left pretty muchimmediately, is when I began to
(16:31):
stand up.
I created Failing Justice, Icreated the podcast and, um, I
started putting these things outthere and, um, you know that
wasn't necessarily fun either.
Um, because, you know, I wastrying to find a place to
reserve, I was trying to find anagency that would hold my
(16:54):
license and my current agencythat I had just left from.
Going back to characterassassination.
They were trying to discreditmy service record, which you
know was.
You know, know, I wasn'tperfect, but there wasn't
anything in there, just absurdly, uh, just anything egregious,
(17:19):
and so that that's when all theattacks really began.
I was, I, I felt like I didn'twant to endure that while I was
at the agency.
Well, what cowards do?
Travis Yates (17:31):
Jason, justin, I'm sorry, just to interrupt you
briefly.
That's the coward's playbook,right, Because you're right.
If you wouldn't have resigned,they were going to get out, go
after you, whatever, and listen.
People may be listening to thisthat aren't in the profession,
that don't understand this.
If I'm behind your car on thehighway, I can follow you until
I see something wrong Turnsignal weaving within the lines.
(17:55):
Right, I can.
If I look at somebody longenough, I will find a shred, a
little shred of evidence to comeafter you.
Well, that's what they do tolaw enforcement, right?
So they were going to findwhatever it took, even if they
had to make it up to get you outof the agency.
You saw that coming and youleft.
But the ironic thing, we hearthis a lot.
We just interviewed SteveFriend with the FBI or former
(18:17):
FBI.
Same thing, same descriptionAfter you leave.
It's not good enough for thembecause they're worried about
you, what you're going to say ordo.
They'll go after you as aperson, as a character, and they
want to try to destroy futureemployment and you as a person,
as a character, and they want totry to destroy future
employment, and so that's whatcowards do and people that may
be listening to this.
They'll think and that couldnever happen to me.
(18:38):
Well, justin, you never thoughtit was going to happen to you.
Steve friend, you never thoughtit was going to happen to you.
Hell, I teach about this allover the country.
I thought it would never happento me.
It happens all over the placewhen you stand up against these
cowardly tyrants, right, andthey are a sleeping giant Inside
too many organizations and yousaw this firsthand.
Justin Carlson (18:59):
Yeah, and you're absolutely right.
I mean, I knew what was goingto happen had I stayed, and so I
planned.
I planned my exit strategicallybut at the same time, in the
back of my mind, I knew I put upenough fight while I was still
there to let them know I wasn'tgoing to accept what was
(19:20):
happening.
And there were little thingschange of assignments, things
like that that that um startedhappening.
But, uh, man, I was cautious.
I was cautious because, um, Ihad seen it time and time again,
again, and it had neverhappened to me.
(19:41):
But I had seen plenty ofcolleagues, um, in my own agency
and across the country that ithappened to.
So I knew what was going totake place and across the
country that it happened to.
So I knew what was going totake place and that's why I
planned my strategic exit.
And you know, to this very day,you know, there was a time, man
, when I was doing this, therewas a time that I thought I was
(20:02):
going to be indicted.
Travis Yates (20:03):
Yep, they use that .
They do that as well, and thatwas a very scary time, and
Justin, let me just interruptyou I'm sorry one more time
because I want to describe toour audience how that happens.
Here's how you can indict aninnocent person.
Here's how I could indictJustin Carlson right now.
Today, I simply write up anaffidavit on everything that
Justin's supposedly done.
(20:24):
I never interviewed Justin, soI never have Justin's side of
the story and I present thataffidavit to the district
attorney or a grand jury abouteverything you've done and
they're going to indict you and,yes, chances are you're going
to have to go get, pay a prettygood, hefty price to get a good
lawyer, the things that youthey've got to show that
evidence in trial to convict you.
They're not going to be able toshow that evidence but by the
(20:45):
time that two or three year timeperiod went through and you
have to go through a publictrial, even if, even though
you're found not guilty whichlikely would happen if you
actually didn't do it They'vedestroyed you during that time
period.
That's how you indict innocentpeople from a law enforcement
standpoint and if it's happeningto law enforcement.
(21:06):
As I speak and as I speak, as Ispeak and as I speak, there are
multiple people I know that didnothing wrong were arrested or
indicted and prosecuted by theirown agency.
Do you not think that happensto the general public?
Of course it does, right, andyou found that out.
(21:28):
Now, that's not to mean thatthis is a common thing, but
let's be honest here, let's.
We just talked about theimperfection of people.
There's only been one perfectperson that walked this planet,
and they don't work for yourpolice department.
I can guarantee you that thisoccurs, and so that's why you
need courageous men and women atthese agencies, like yourself,
to stand up to this, because wewill never root this out.
I don't care what pledge orprogram or what school your
(21:49):
chief went to.
We have imperfection insideagencies.
That's not the question.
The question is what are wegoing to do about it?
Justin, and in your case, ahealthy organization with a
healthy culture, what shouldhave happened when you brought
this to their attention?
Justin Carlson (22:04):
Yeah, I mean you said it a healthy culture in
these law enforcementorganizations across the country
.
And every now and then you findthat unicorn agency right, I'm
sure you know of a few of them.
They're out there, they doexist, and I just wonder why it
(22:27):
is that it can't exist acrossthe board.
And I think it comes back tocowardly leadership and having
cowards in these positions ofleadership who want to pander to
the bureaucrats, their donors,and that's where you begin to
(22:49):
have, you know, the lines getblurred and I completely agree
with you.
I think at the very end of theday, it comes to having a
healthy, having a good leaderwho will make that organization
healthy.
I mean there's always going tobe things that pop up in an
organization that you have todeal with.
I mean you talked about itearlier.
(23:09):
I mean things that pop up in anorganization that you have to
deal with.
I mean you talked about itearlier.
I mean imperfection.
Just it's human nature.
You know, anytime you havehumans involved with anything,
you're going to have the error.
None of us are infallible.
You know, like you said, therewas only one perfect person that
walked the earth.
But it's how you deal with thesethings as a leader that matter,
(23:32):
because look, look at all, lookwho's watching.
You have the general publicwatching, you have the news
media watching, you have your,your officers watching.
Everybody is watching thedecision that you're going to
make as a leader and, honestly,to me, it's not that hard, it's
not difficult.
If you're able to pass a stateexam, you're able to go to
(23:56):
college and get a degree, you'reable to put a badge and a gun
on and go out and make life ordeath decisions.
You cannot tell me that youdon't know the difference
between right and wrong inpretty much any given situation.
And if you don't know it, asksomebody as a leader.
That's another problem.
These leaders, I think theyalways have the know-it-all
attitude I'm going to make thedecision, nobody's going to tell
(24:18):
me how to run my organization,and that's a problem too.
There's people, there'sresources available to these
chiefs and these sheriffs andthese captains and these
lieutenants.
Um, but man, I think it, likeyou said, it just comes down to
to culture and, uh, in myparticular case, what should
(24:39):
have happened obviously is Ishould have been able to
confidently bring this to thetable and say this is a problem,
um, and I'm presenting it toyou.
I expect you to handle it withintegrity and but that's not
(24:59):
what happened.
All these people, all thesepublic officials and these local
politicians they were friendsoutside of work, so much of
their get togethers and partiesand alcohol, all this stuff got
uncovered.
And you know, I uncovered allthat and I connected the dots as
(25:19):
to why it wasn't handled orcouldn't have been handled
properly.
When I was there.
And you know the the, myadministration completely agreed
with the district attorney,even though they were wrong in
that moment and they knew theywere wrong.
They ended up eventuallydropping this charge on this kid
because they knew they werewrong.
(25:40):
I told them, first and foremost, I'm not going to show up and
my testimony is not going toreflect what you want it to, and
so they ended up dropping itlong, you know.
Again, long story short.
But it goes back to the cultureand, like you said earlier, I
think everything, quiteliterally everything in law
enforcement, begins at the top,with leadership.
Travis Yates (26:03):
You know, the federal government's got a
whistleblower policy and nowthey get around that.
Steve Framble described thatspecifically.
But do you know of any agenciesthat have an actual policy for
whistleblower status?
Because this is kind of whatwe're talking about here.
People, you're the only one.
I'm going to assume that youwere the one of the few that
would stand up like this, butmost people won't, because they
(26:26):
fear retribution.
Right, that's the differencebetween courage and cowards.
Courageous, they know what'sright and wrong.
Just like you said, they'regoing to do what's right, no
matter what.
They work with a set ofprinciples where nobody's going
to get in the way of thoseprinciples.
Well, law enforcement is in astate of fear of everybody,
particularly their managementoftentimes.
I don't want anybody to getdepressed and we're talking
about all agencies.
Of course we're not.
(26:46):
You're an idiot if you thinkthat, but we need to talk about
the agencies that are like thisor we're never going to solve
this issue.
Just like you, justin, peopleget upset at the things I say.
I was canceled from twoconferences this year and
because they didn't want to hearthis type of thing, which I'm
like.
Good, if you don't want to hearfrom me, then I know I should
never come back to yourconference because I know what
you're about and because I wantto know right up front and I
(27:09):
don't want to solve it.
You don't talk about theproblem, you don't solve it.
So would that not make a strongstatement as a leader if you
took a bold stance andimplemented a policy to protect
people like yourself that wantedto see corruption?
Because we, we do that when itmakes the leaders look good.
Right, oh, we have a, whateverthey call it.
(27:30):
You can interrupt use of forceat any time and stop it.
You know, if you don't do itfrom a backing officer and stop
this excessive force that youperceive to be excessive, then
we're going to discipline you.
Well, what about the chiefsthat do things like this to you?
That may not be on a bodycamera, but they're even more
destructive oftentimes?
(27:50):
What if they would take theboat stance to implement an
actual policy to protect peoplelike yourself?
Would that not send a message?
Justin Carlson (27:56):
No, yeah, it absolutely would.
Now I don't just sitting herethinking right off the bat
there's no agency that comes tomind.
Obviously I'm not going to saythat that doesn't exist, but
there's no agency that comes tomind Number one that I know of
currently or number two that Ihave ever heard of, number two
(28:24):
that I have ever heard of.
You know, you do a lot moretraveling and go to a lot of
agencies, so maybe you have thatinsight and that knowledge, but
, as of right now, I don't knowof an agency that has the
whistleblower policy.
So I mean, of course, at facevalue, everybody likes in these
piddly handbooks and these SOPsthat you have at these
organizations and at thesecities and these counties, it'll
(28:45):
obviously say, yeah, you cancome report, but, travis, in my
experience you can't come report.
And so, yeah, I think it wouldmake a very bold statement.
But you know a lot of the times,you know what's crazy is a lot
of the times when you, when yougo, report these, these, this
(29:07):
misconduct and these things, itinvolves some of the top people.
And you know, when you have thetop people that are involved in
the misconduct, then I meanthat's obviously a problem
because you know who's going toinvestigate that right?
And the problem is these, a lotof these people form these
(29:28):
relationships and so they feelbound by their relationship with
each other to overlook somethings, and so, again, that just
goes back to cowards and that'sall that is.
And it runs rampant, man, itjust runs rampant in our law
enforcement agencies today.
And it's sad because then youhave organizations, one in
(29:53):
particular that I can think of.
I've had the co-chair on mypodcast, the Lamplighter Project
.
Um, those are all cops.
I don't know if you ever heardof it, but the Lamplighter
Project, those are all cops.
Um, who formed that nonprofitfor other cops to be able to
come to them when they arewhistleblowers, and, um, they
(30:15):
helped them through, uh, a lotof the the procedures and
processes, but, um, processes.
But it's unfortunate that wedon't have that built into our
agencies.
Travis Yates (30:27):
Well, it says everything that you don't know
of an agency and I don't know ofan agency, and most of us just
talk.
Now you're right about onething you could put a policy out
, but the policy is only good ifit's actually enforced, if it's
actually practiced.
It's like when these chiefs gooh I have an open door policy,
well, good luck getting anybodycoming in your door.
If they don't, if you'vecreated a toxic culture, right.
But they love to check the boxand say that.
(30:49):
So I'm going to talk about acheck the box policy.
I want to just challenge ourlisteners.
We have chiefs, we havesheriffs listening to this.
You need that policy.
You need to assure your peoplethat you will root out
corruption, and we will send youa model policy, we will send
you the ideology on how to dothis.
One of the things that we liketo advocate is anonymous phone
(31:09):
numbers.
Right, like I can reportsomething anonymously.
Well, you let citizens reportthings anonymously on your
officers.
Why would you not let your ownofficers report things
anonymously?
And I know people are going togo oh, this is going to create
chaos.
No, it won't.
You'll know real quick whetherit's somebody playing a game or
trolling, or it's accurate,right, but, but you have to
actually get that information,and so I don't think I'm going
(31:30):
to have a string of emailspeople wanting to do it.
But that's a problem in theprofession and that doesn't.
That doesn't mean that we thinkall these agencies are horrible
.
It just means that if you don'thave these instruments in place
, what does that say about you,right?
I'm not sure how to answer that.
We have a lot to fix in theprofession and listen, that's
why we both do what we do.
(31:50):
We may do it from differentangles or different platforms,
but we both want the most.
Professional.
Law enforcement is out thereand, by the way, listening to
insane people with purple hairhas not done it for us, trust me
.
If it did, I would beadvocating for it, but that's
not going to work.
Just look around, you're doingthat now and that doesn't work,
and so, um, so we need some ofthese, uh, instruments of
(32:13):
accountability in place, and uh,that seems to be very easy to
do, right?
And uh, the fact there has tobe a nonprofit that exists to
take care of thesewhistleblowers is shocking.
It should be shocking in anyorganization.
I would just submit this to youIf any private company didn't
have this type of policy, thatwould be well known.
People would be outraged bythat right, and so the fact that
(32:36):
we don't have some sort ofeffort to do this is pretty
surprising, and so I think wehave more things to talk about.
Justin, I want to get back to aquestion I asked you several
minutes ago because it's reallyimportant.
I think I know the answer,because everybody I ask this
question gives me the sameanswer.
Why are you different?
What made you stand up?
Because I want to express thisto our audience how difficult
(32:57):
this is to do.
You stand up and nobody elsestands up with you.
That's a pretty isolated thingto go through, and there's
trauma involved in that.
Whether you want to admit it ornot, this profession was not
what you thought it was.
You know we're all recruited inthis profession of God bless
America, red, white, blue, goodversus evil, but you don't
(33:18):
realize the evil's settingacross from you at a squad table
and um, but what made you standup when everybody else sat down
?
What is it about youspecifically because I'm
obsessed with this and thecharacteristics behind this what
was it about you specificallythat made you do the right thing
when the costs were tremendous?
Justin Carlson (33:40):
Well, here's the thing, Travis, the reason.
I know this happens and it'snot isolated, and I know that it
happens in many places.
This happened to me twice.
Actually, I had told you that Igot out of law enforcement for
(34:03):
about two years.
I had a very successful privatebusiness.
Um, I mean, I was making.
I was I mean I made a quartermillion dollars in a year and a
half and that was that's not lawenforcement, money like that's
money that I was like what isgoing on?
But I didn't, I didn't have asense of purpose during that
time and that's what made me sayI only got out if let's, let's
(34:29):
be clear here.
I thought, and I tried toconvince myself that I got out
because I was tired of lawenforcement.
I wasn't tired of lawenforcement.
Um, yeah, there were somethings that you know working
child sex crimes for five yearsin a row.
That'll take a toll on yourmental health.
But I was convinced and I toldeverybody that I was just tired
(34:53):
of law enforcement.
But the fact is, I got outbecause I wanted to expose some
serious corruption.
And then, two years later, Isold my private business and I
got back in law enforcement,which is right around.
You know, you met me when Iworked at my last agency and,
man, there was a lot of thingsgoing on there misappropriation
(35:15):
of funds, and I'm just like whatis going on right now.
You know why am I faced withthis again?
And a lot of those people, alot of my, a lot of those people
who dislike what I do, say well, problems, just follow you.
And I said, I mean, I guessthat's maybe one take.
Travis Yates (35:36):
Well, it's not an accurate take.
That's a take of people withtheir head in the sand right.
Justin Carlson (35:41):
Again, I'm a believer that all things happen
for a reason and that maybe Iwas meant to go to this agency
because when I started exposingthese things at this other
agency now I did at that agencymanager was somebody that I.
(36:02):
I just I felt that he was goingto handle things properly and
so I took it to him.
I took it all to him, I hadreceipts in my hand and they
covered it up I mean, covered itup with a heavy wool blanket,
and I wasn't accepting of that.
I didn't accept that, and so Itold them I didn't accept that.
(36:23):
They fired me.
I was actually fired from thatagency and that lit a fire under
my rear end, because it's thefirst time I'd ever been fired.
It was an experience, I assureyou it was.
It was an experience.
And eight weeks later, uh, thatfire under my rear end led to
(36:44):
that chief getting the chiefthat fired me.
He got fired because ofeverything that I was trying to
show them, but they covered itup.
And then what happens when you,um, what happens when you cover
things up?
It starts to seep out, and so,um, my point is, um, I tell that
(37:04):
story to to kind of lay afoundation.
To answer your question, Idon't know exactly what it is
about me.
Um, there are a few things.
I just find it that when Iraised my right hand just as you
(37:28):
did and so many of the othersprobably listening to this
podcast and took an oath and Iknow this sounds so cliche, I'm
not trying to sound noble, I'mnot trying to just, oh, you know
, I'm just this big, courageousperson.
But, man, I take that seriousand I equate it to a child.
We have children, we have youngchildren, and those children,
(38:01):
whether they know it or not,trust us to look after them.
And it's the same with lawenforcement.
We are put in those positions.
Leaders are put in thosepositions.
Chiefs, sheriffs, street cops,jailers, judges, district
attorneys, you name it.
All of these people are put inthese positions.
They're positions of trust and,like I said earlier, we are
(38:23):
supposed to be good stewards ofthe trust of the public and when
that is violated, it justdoesn't sit right with me, um,
because it that's not, it's justnot okay and it just doesn't
(38:45):
sit right with me, and so maybeGod put that in me just to be
the kind of person that I am.
Again, I don't like to thinkmore highly of myself than I
should, but I just I believe Godbuilt me for that.
I don't know why, because,you're right, it does feel
(39:06):
sometimes like you're on anisland, very lonely.
But some of the encouragementthat I get and you know what's
crazy about this too, travis, isa lot of the encouragement I
get, um are from active cops whoinbox me.
They're too afraid to putsomething on a public comment
section, whether whether it beYouTube or Facebook or TikTok,
(39:30):
instagram, you name it.
I get a ton of inbox messages,emails saying hey, you know, I'm
a cop in Maine, I'm a cop inMichigan, I'm a cop in Virginia
I found your podcast, man, weappreciate what you do or even a
lot of cops from my twoprevious agencies, and you know
why that is.
It's because they're in fearthat if they come out in support
(39:52):
of what is right and what isjust, then they are.
They are fearful that they'regoing to lose their jobs too,
and that is nothing short ofdisgusting in my opinion.
In my opinion, it you nobodyshould have fear lingering over
them, that that they're going toget fired or demoted or written
(40:17):
up or have any kind of hardshipat work because they stand up
for what's just and what's right.
And you know, I don't know if Idirectly answered your question
, but, uh, as tough as it is, um, I look at my journey and I
(40:38):
know that God put me in thisposition, uh, for, for a reason,
and um, I've, I've seen thefruits of, of, of that labor.
Travis Yates (40:47):
Justin Carlson, you did what these is the
purpose and mission with us hereat courageous leadership.
You put that coward out to therest home and that's what we
want to do with all of them.
We want to eradicate thecowards in this profession.
Um, I'm honored you came on theshow.
I'm so thankful for what you do.
How can people reach you?
How can they listen to thepodcast?
Kind of give them all that, allthat tidbit of information.
Justin Carlson (41:10):
Yeah, so you can go to failingjusticeorg.
That's where all my informationis.
There's podcast links forYouTube, spotify, apple or
wherever you get your podcasts.
We're pretty much on all themajor podcast platforms, so
failingjust um, and thencarlssonsolutionsnet, which is
my private investigations firm.
(41:31):
Um, if anybody needs privateinvestigations or um background
checks for their law enforcementagency, uh, we have a team of
guys that uh former detectivesthat work on those, and so, um,
carlssonsolutions net or failingjustice dot org is how you can
reach me.
Travis Yates (41:52):
Well, earlier in the show we talked about some
easy actions that courageousleaders can do, which is to
implement a whistleblower typepolicy even anonymous reports
for corruption or bad dealingsinside an agency.
But let me encourage them to doone more action item and it's
just brought to mind because,obviously, background checks are
extremely important.
I think it's even moreimportant to have a third party
(42:13):
do those, justin, because thenif something happens down the
line, they don't accuse theagency of missing something.
There's been plenty of reportson that and, of course, the
trouble that comes with that,and so having an independent
agency do that is important.
You do that with that, and sohaving an independent agency do
that is important.
You do that.
But the other thing that locallaw enforcement typically
doesn't do is, believe it or not, the federal government does do
(42:34):
this law enforcement.
They do background checks everyfive years on their employees,
and I haven't heard of an agencyunless you're in narcotics do
that.
And that seems to be odd to me,because when you hire a 21, 25
year old kid, they have onebackground, but when they're 40,
they have a differentbackground, and we tend to just
hide our eyes and ignore all ofthat.
(42:55):
I think it would be extremelyimportant for law enforcement to
do these background checksevery five years.
That's the federal standard.
If you want to push that to 10years, that's one thing, but at
least do multiple backgroundchecks.
And you're not doing thatbecause you think your
department's full of these badactors.
You're doing that to get leftof bane, to get left of a
problem, right, and then do notnot just to get people in
(43:17):
trouble, but maybe people needhelp, right.
That's.
That's part of caring for yourdepartment, caring for your
officers, and so that is alsosomething we should start doing,
and I I would assume, justin,your company would do that as
well.
Justin Carlson (43:30):
Yeah, and I mean you do make a good point.
You put somebody that's greenbehind the ear, 21 years old, be
a police officer.
You know, five, 10 years laterthey may be two divorces under
their belt and just PTSD riddenfrom.
No them what they faced whenthey were a police officer.
And again, not to scare thepolice officers or make them
(43:54):
feel like they're in trouble,but I think you made a great
point.
There's so many officers outthere and they don't.
They're not just afraid to sayanything about misconduct, but a
lot of them are afraid to sayand I'm sure I've listened to
your podcast.
Y'all talked about this plentyabout their mental health.
So, um, there's plenty ofreasons to uh conduct a periodic
(44:15):
background checks.
Again, whether you say fiveyears or 10 years, um, that is
something that that, uh, wewould do.
And and, uh, our team that doesthe background checks, we're um
, all certified to do thosechecks.
We did them as law enforcementofficers, so we all know what
we're doing and how to do it andwhat law enforcement agencies
expect.
(44:35):
And so if there's anybody thatneeds that background check that
is a law enforcement agency,reach out to us.
Whether it's one or 50, youknow we can accommodate it all.
Travis Yates (44:49):
Excellent.
Justin Carlson, thanks so muchfor being here and, if you've
been listening, thank you forspending your time with us.
And just remember lead on andstay courageous.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Thank you for listening to Courageous
Leadership with Travis Yates.
We invite you to join othercourageous leaders at www.
travisyates.
org.
And there were little things.
You know change of assignments,you know things like that.
That started happening but, man, I was cautious.
I was cautious because I hadseen it time and time again.
Again, it had never happened tome, but I had seen plenty of
(00:20):
colleagues in my own agency andacross the country that it
happened to.
So I knew what was going totake place and that's why I
planned my strategic exit, andyou know, to this very day.
You know, there was a time, man, when I was doing this, there
was a time that I thought I wasgoing to be indicted.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates,
where leaders find the insights,advice and encouragement they
need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates (00:51):
Welcome back to the show.
I'm so honored that you'vedecided to spend a few minutes
with us here today, and we'revery honored to have a sponsor
for today's episodeOfficerPrivacycom.
Did you know that 98% of thehome addresses of law
enforcement professionals areexposed online, meaning
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(01:14):
a mouse?
So OfficerPrivacy.
com has the answer.
I'm also a member.
It's been tremendous for me andmy family.
If you believe in officersafety, you should also believe
in officer safety at home aswell.
Check them out atOfficerPrivacy.
com.
I am super excited about today'sguest.
Today's guest is Justin Carlson.
He's a former detective andowner at the Carlson Solutions
(01:36):
PI firm.
He's the founder of FailingJustice, one of the best
podcasts dedicated to thecriminal justice system that you
will find podcast dedicated tothe criminal justice system that
you will find, and Justin isalso at the tip of the spear
when it comes to a balance ofjustice and individual rights.
I'm really excited to have youhere, justin.
How are you doing, sir?
Justin Carlson (01:53):
Travis, I'm good man.
I am and I'm honored to be onthe show man.
I appreciate that.
Travis Yates (02:00):
Man, I've been intending to get you on for a
while.
You've been a busy guy.
I love your background, I lovewhat you do out there.
We're going to get into allthat, but before that, I mean
obviously you have a backgroundin law enforcement.
You're doing things in thecriminal justice system now,
including your PI firm.
You do background checks foragencies for pre-hire super
important work.
But what got you interested inlaw enforcement?
Justin Carlson (02:32):
Tell us a little bit about your career.
Yeah, so I actually startedwhen I was 18 years old.
I come from a background of lawenforcement.
The only active member of myfamily still in law enforcement
now is my uncle, but he's achief deputy in Smith County,
texas.
But I come from a background inlaw enforcement, my aunts, both
my grandfathers from abackground in law enforcement,
my aunts, both my grandfathers.
My dad, he was law enforcementfor a little while for the
undercover narcotics and forArkansas State Police, and so I
(02:57):
just grew up around it.
You know, I was that kid thatwatched cops on TV.
I was that kid that went up tothe jail, got to ride in the
backseat of patrol cars, whichyou know you got to question the
parenting on that of howunsanitary that is.
But I just I grew up around it,man.
And then my dad became apreacher.
So I'm also a PK.
(03:18):
But you know, I think for awhile my dad probably wanted me
to go in the ministry, and for awhile my dad probably wanted me
to go in the ministry and but Iwas just.
I wanted to be a cop.
And so when I was 18, I startedmy career in the Dallas-Fort
Worth Metroplex, at the BedfordPolice Department, and I just
worked in the jail.
I knew that, you know, from thetime I was 18 to 21, I had to
(03:40):
do, I had to work in the jail.
So I did three years in thejail, which was most certainly a
good, solid foundation for whenI went to the police academy
when I was 21.
And so then I went to graduatethe police I was 20, actually,
but I graduated when I was 21.
And then I hit the streets.
(04:01):
Hit the streets running man.
I was where I wanted to be.
I knew that was my place and,of course, over the years I grew
up through the ranks you know,went into CID, worked in, you
know, did some white collarstuff for a little while.
I specialized in child sexcrimes, child physical abuse and
(04:25):
then eventually went on to dohomicides and I did some
administration time during thoseyears.
But I did a total of 15 years.
I stepped away for a little bit, came back.
I wasn't quite certain and sureof myself when I stepped away.
I wanted to dip my toe back inand try again, but then I
(04:47):
realized, you know, I was betteroff in the private sector,
which is where I'm at now and Ido a lot of.
I like what you said when youintroduced me to me that was a
very accurate introduction is Ibelieve that I have a
well-balanced.
Well, I'm very, I'm very wellbalanced when it comes to
(05:10):
criminal justice system.
I'm also, you know, a lot ofpeople think if, if some people
listen to some of the things Isay, especially police officers,
they think, oh my gosh, youknow this guy doesn't like
police, but that's that's thefurthest from the truth.
I mean, some of my best friendsare still cops.
I love police officers, I lovelaw enforcement, but, like you
(05:31):
said, I also have a on the onthe other side of the scale.
I believe in individual rights,in the Constitution and that
law enforcement should behave.
So I do.
I love the way that youintroduced me and put that when
when you said that I feel like Iam pretty well balanced.
But in short, in a nutshell,that's that's kind of how my
(05:51):
career played out.
Travis Yates (05:54):
Well it's.
It's so interesting, Justin,because if you care about law
enforcement, then you want tohave the best law enforcement
you possibly can.
Right, we do so much.
We listen to people that don'tknow anything about this
profession that tries to fix usright, and of course, they just
throw these ideas on the walland anybody living in America in
2024 knows that didn't workright.
We have a recruiting crisis, aretention crisis.
(06:17):
Our crime rate, especially ourviolent crime rate, despite what
Washington DC tells us, iscompletely out of control
because they conveniently letthe FBI not report about 50
percent of that violent crimefor this election year politics,
and so we, everybody livinghere understands that, and
nobody's really pinpointing whythat's happened.
But part of the reason that'shappened is because we are
listening to people outside theprofession.
(06:37):
They're demanding us to getbetter and we're just listening
to them versus us, who know howwe can get better, and you
touched on it.
We should be constitutionallyfocused, focused on the mission,
focused on not just customerservice but individual rights,
and you can do all of that andfight crime at the same time,
and you, very fortunately, aresort of a lone voice to some of
(06:59):
that.
Why do you think you've gottensome of that backlash you talked
about you've gotten some ofthat backlash you talked about.
Justin Carlson (07:09):
Well, to make a another long story short, um,
there were some things that Ifaced when I was working major
crimes, um, and those people cango listen my podcast that
they'd like I won't tell thewhole story, but there was some
corruption that fell in my lapand you know, I was actually.
I was actually at the time man,I was your, I was your soldier,
(07:30):
I was the guy who just showedup, wanted to do a good job,
wanted to put bad guys in jailfor doing bad things to children
, you know, and murdering people.
And so when this stuff fellinto my lap, I was just man, I
was flabbergasted, I didn't knowexactly how to handle it.
And then, when I tried tohandle it the right way and give
(07:54):
it to the people that shouldhave taken it and done the right
thing, they didn't.
They tried to cover a lot of itup, and so that's kind of what
opened my eyes to the other sideof the criminal legal system.
So that's when I decided to getout and when I, when I was able
(08:19):
to leave my agency again, itwasn't something I wanted to do.
Leave my agency Again, it wasn'tsomething I wanted to do.
I thought I was going to be acop for the rest of my life and
that's you know.
But I believe that you knowthere's a God above who puts
pieces in place for a reason,and I think this was my journey.
(08:40):
But when I decided to leave lawenforcement, I feel like I had
more of a voice right, and whichis crazy.
When you think about that, it'stotally backwards.
You should, even if you're inlaw enforcement, you should, be
able to speak on what's rightand what's just and not be in
fear of your career being lostand character assassination and
(09:04):
service credit assassination.
But you know, that's besidesthe point.
When I left, I started speakingon these things, which is what
prompted me to start failingjustice, and that's that was
kind of the long way around toget to what you asked me.
But why do I think I receivedsome of the backlash?
(09:26):
Because it was.
It was during that time that Ireceived I mean, I still see
received backlash to this day,but it was during that time that
it was really heightenedbecause, um, I was exposing
those that were police officers,that were police administrators
, for malfeasance, behavior,things that shouldn't have been
(09:48):
happening, and those that wereattached to those police
officers, those that wereattached to those administrators
.
It ended up all being political.
In the end, everything's got tobe attached to something
political.
But the backlash was because Iwas speaking of of hey, this,
this is not okay.
(10:09):
We are police officers, thepublic puts their trust in us
and we are supposed to be goodstewards of that trust.
And, yeah, man, I mean I justthink that, uh, and it's again.
It's so backwards because thepolice officers, those in law
(10:32):
enforcement, are the ones thatare supposed to be doing the
right things, and we see it allthe time Thanks to social media,
so so often they aren't theones that are doing what they're
supposed to be doing.
And that transcends not justcorruption and misconduct.
I mean that transcends into.
I mean, look what yourplatform's built on leadership.
(10:52):
I mean you've been on mypodcast, we've talked about this
.
That transcends not justcorruption and misconduct.
I think everything begins withleadership, because if you have
poor leadership, then you openthe door for everything else,
such as misconduct andcorruption, and the list goes on
and on, such as misconduct andcorruption, and the list goes on
(11:12):
and on and it trickles down.
Travis Yates (11:15):
Yeah, I'm going to make a statement that may be
surprising, but I don't think wehave a corruption problem.
I think we have a leadershipproblem, because bad actors in
any profession is not unique.
Right, you could name theprofession.
You have bad actors, but how doleaders deal with that?
That's the answer, right.
We're not looking for a perfectprofession.
Do leaders deal with that?
That's the answer, right.
We're not looking for a perfectprofession.
We're looking for a professionthat deals with bad actors,
whether it's the school teachersor the ministers and the
(11:37):
scandals all over the CEO worldwe know of.
Well, how do you deal with that?
And typically, organizationsget destroyed when they don't
deal with it properly.
I think most people understand,justin, I don't expect
perfection, but what I do expectis leaders do what leaders need
to do when that imperfectionoccurs.
And so what you just describedto me is we talked to a lot of
(11:58):
guests that deal with.
What you dealt with is you weredisillusioned at some point in
your career when you thoughtthis career was full of great,
courageous men and women doingthe right thing at all levels,
and you went face to face withcowardice, right, but you did
something that so many don't doand I want to sort of dive into
(12:18):
the bottom of that.
You didn't know this was like apodcast on psychology, but I'm
so curious on why you're aunicorn and why you rose up, you
confronted it while everyonearound you put their head down
as those loyal soldiers and justkept moving.
So what is it about you?
And, by the way, before we getto that I'm going to come back
to that I want to sort of tellour audience what.
(12:40):
I don't know what happened toyou when this happened, but I
talked to so many people thathas been through what you've
done.
When they stand up to cowards,so cowards have some elements
and ammunition at their side.
They have internal affairs,they have fellow soldiers that
will assassinate your character,your reputation, and they'll
use their internal affairs unitto literally try to destroy you,
combined with characterassassination to get you out of
(13:02):
the profession.
So when you confronted this,did the investigation start
almost immediately on you?
Justin Carlson (13:08):
Well, so I was.
I was a little bit smartactually.
Um, I read the writing on thewall.
I knew so, so, so this was whenI say it was political, it was
so political.
I mean, we're talking districtattorneys, judges, police chiefs
, judges, police chiefs, uh, youknow, district judges, county
(13:32):
judges, mayors, city council Uh,I mean, it was so embedded.
At the time I hadn't, I had noidea, but when I, in summary,
they were trying to put a kid injail that shouldn't have been
in jail.
Um, it was a case that I workedand the, the, the, the kid that
they were putting it, they weretrying to lock up.
Um, it was a case that I workedand that the, the, the kid that
they were putting it, they weretrying to lock up.
(13:52):
Um, I, I did not implicate thatkid in my investigation, um,
because I believed he wasinnocent.
Um, and I had several things tocorroborate that.
So the mom of the kid that Iwas trying, that they were
trying to lock up, had arelationship, a friendship, with
(14:18):
the mayor and all these otherpolitical parties, all these
other public officials.
They didn't like thatrelationship and I didn't know
this was going on.
Man, again, I'm just the guyinvestigating.
Travis Yates (14:30):
You're just doing the case, presenting the
evidence and expecting everybodyto do the right thing.
Justin Carlson (14:35):
Had no clue, and so I, once I saw how big it was
, I I decided OK, you know Ihave two choices, you know I
have two choices.
I can.
(15:03):
I can sit here and I knowwhat's going to come if I do
something while I'm stillemployed, because I knew exactly
what was going to happen.
Or I could leave.
And so over a period of, I didgo toe to toe with the DA.
I did go toe to toe with the DA, and that that's that's what
started.
That's when I knew thatsomething was eventually going
(15:25):
to happen, because the DA hadthe power.
Again, this is the this is thesame DA, by the way, that has
upheld Robert Robertson'sexecution warrant in Texas right
now.
But that's besides the point.
I decided that I needed toleave.
So over a period of three orfour months, I started
(15:48):
formulating my own plan, andthat plan was to start a
business in the private sector,and I had to do it cautiously
and carefully.
But I did do that and I left.
I put in my two weeks notice.
They had no clue it was coming.
They had no clue.
I was building my business, butI wasn't going to let what
happened go because they weretrying to put somebody.
(16:10):
They were trying to locksomebody up that was innocent,
and so I put in my two weeksnotice and they let me work my
two weeks notice every bit ofthat two week notice.
And when I left pretty muchimmediately, is when I began to
(16:31):
stand up.
I created Failing Justice, Icreated the podcast and, um, I
started putting these things outthere and, um, you know that
wasn't necessarily fun either.
Um, because, you know, I wastrying to find a place to
reserve, I was trying to find anagency that would hold my
(16:54):
license and my current agencythat I had just left from.
Going back to characterassassination.
They were trying to discreditmy service record, which you
know was.
You know, know, I wasn'tperfect, but there wasn't
anything in there, just absurdly, uh, just anything egregious,
(17:19):
and so that that's when all theattacks really began.
I was, I, I felt like I didn'twant to endure that while I was
at the agency.
Well, what cowards do?
Travis Yates (17:31):
Jason, justin, I'm sorry, just to interrupt you
briefly.
That's the coward's playbook,right, Because you're right.
If you wouldn't have resigned,they were going to get out, go
after you, whatever, and listen.
People may be listening to thisthat aren't in the profession,
that don't understand this.
If I'm behind your car on thehighway, I can follow you until
I see something wrong Turnsignal weaving within the lines.
(17:55):
Right, I can.
If I look at somebody longenough, I will find a shred, a
little shred of evidence to comeafter you.
Well, that's what they do tolaw enforcement, right?
So they were going to findwhatever it took, even if they
had to make it up to get you outof the agency.
You saw that coming and youleft.
But the ironic thing, we hearthis a lot.
We just interviewed SteveFriend with the FBI or former
(18:17):
FBI.
Same thing, same descriptionAfter you leave.
It's not good enough for thembecause they're worried about
you, what you're going to say ordo.
They'll go after you as aperson, as a character, and they
want to try to destroy futureemployment and you as a person,
as a character, and they want totry to destroy future
employment, and so that's whatcowards do and people that may
be listening to this.
They'll think and that couldnever happen to me.
(18:38):
Well, justin, you never thoughtit was going to happen to you.
Steve friend, you never thoughtit was going to happen to you.
Hell, I teach about this allover the country.
I thought it would never happento me.
It happens all over the placewhen you stand up against these
cowardly tyrants, right, andthey are a sleeping giant Inside
too many organizations and yousaw this firsthand.
Justin Carlson (18:59):
Yeah, and you're absolutely right.
I mean, I knew what was goingto happen had I stayed, and so I
planned.
I planned my exit strategicallybut at the same time, in the
back of my mind, I knew I put upenough fight while I was still
there to let them know I wasn'tgoing to accept what was
(19:20):
happening.
And there were little thingschange of assignments, things
like that that that um startedhappening.
But, uh, man, I was cautious.
I was cautious because, um, Ihad seen it time and time again,
again, and it had neverhappened to me.
(19:41):
But I had seen plenty ofcolleagues, um, in my own agency
and across the country that ithappened to.
So I knew what was going totake place and across the
country that it happened to.
So I knew what was going totake place and that's why I
planned my strategic exit.
And you know, to this very day,you know, there was a time, man
, when I was doing this, therewas a time that I thought I was
(20:02):
going to be indicted.
Travis Yates (20:03):
Yep, they use that .
They do that as well, and thatwas a very scary time, and
Justin, let me just interruptyou I'm sorry one more time
because I want to describe toour audience how that happens.
Here's how you can indict aninnocent person.
Here's how I could indictJustin Carlson right now.
Today, I simply write up anaffidavit on everything that
Justin's supposedly done.
(20:24):
I never interviewed Justin, soI never have Justin's side of
the story and I present thataffidavit to the district
attorney or a grand jury abouteverything you've done and
they're going to indict you and,yes, chances are you're going
to have to go get, pay a prettygood, hefty price to get a good
lawyer, the things that youthey've got to show that
evidence in trial to convict you.
They're not going to be able toshow that evidence but by the
(20:45):
time that two or three year timeperiod went through and you
have to go through a publictrial, even if, even though
you're found not guilty whichlikely would happen if you
actually didn't do it They'vedestroyed you during that time
period.
That's how you indict innocentpeople from a law enforcement
standpoint and if it's happeningto law enforcement.
(21:06):
As I speak and as I speak, as Ispeak and as I speak, there are
multiple people I know that didnothing wrong were arrested or
indicted and prosecuted by theirown agency.
Do you not think that happensto the general public?
Of course it does, right, andyou found that out.
(21:28):
Now, that's not to mean thatthis is a common thing, but
let's be honest here, let's.
We just talked about theimperfection of people.
There's only been one perfectperson that walked this planet,
and they don't work for yourpolice department.
I can guarantee you that thisoccurs, and so that's why you
need courageous men and women atthese agencies, like yourself,
to stand up to this, because wewill never root this out.
I don't care what pledge orprogram or what school your
(21:49):
chief went to.
We have imperfection insideagencies.
That's not the question.
The question is what are wegoing to do about it?
Justin, and in your case, ahealthy organization with a
healthy culture, what shouldhave happened when you brought
this to their attention?
Justin Carlson (22:04):
Yeah, I mean you said it a healthy culture in
these law enforcementorganizations across the country
.
And every now and then you findthat unicorn agency right, I'm
sure you know of a few of them.
They're out there, they doexist, and I just wonder why it
(22:27):
is that it can't exist acrossthe board.
And I think it comes back tocowardly leadership and having
cowards in these positions ofleadership who want to pander to
the bureaucrats, their donors,and that's where you begin to
(22:49):
have, you know, the lines getblurred and I completely agree
with you.
I think at the very end of theday, it comes to having a
healthy, having a good leaderwho will make that organization
healthy.
I mean there's always going tobe things that pop up in an
organization that you have todeal with.
I mean you talked about itearlier.
(23:09):
I mean things that pop up in anorganization that you have to
deal with.
I mean you talked about itearlier.
I mean imperfection.
Just it's human nature.
You know, anytime you havehumans involved with anything,
you're going to have the error.
None of us are infallible.
You know, like you said, therewas only one perfect person that
walked the earth.
But it's how you deal with thesethings as a leader that matter,
(23:32):
because look, look at all, lookwho's watching.
You have the general publicwatching, you have the news
media watching, you have your,your officers watching.
Everybody is watching thedecision that you're going to
make as a leader and, honestly,to me, it's not that hard, it's
not difficult.
If you're able to pass a stateexam, you're able to go to
(23:56):
college and get a degree, you'reable to put a badge and a gun
on and go out and make life ordeath decisions.
You cannot tell me that youdon't know the difference
between right and wrong inpretty much any given situation.
And if you don't know it, asksomebody as a leader.
That's another problem.
These leaders, I think theyalways have the know-it-all
attitude I'm going to make thedecision, nobody's going to tell
(24:18):
me how to run my organization,and that's a problem too.
There's people, there'sresources available to these
chiefs and these sheriffs andthese captains and these
lieutenants.
Um, but man, I think it, likeyou said, it just comes down to
to culture and, uh, in myparticular case, what should
(24:39):
have happened obviously is Ishould have been able to
confidently bring this to thetable and say this is a problem,
um, and I'm presenting it toyou.
I expect you to handle it withintegrity and but that's not
(24:59):
what happened.
All these people, all thesepublic officials and these local
politicians they were friendsoutside of work, so much of
their get togethers and partiesand alcohol, all this stuff got
uncovered.
And you know, I uncovered allthat and I connected the dots as
(25:19):
to why it wasn't handled orcouldn't have been handled
properly.
When I was there.
And you know the the, myadministration completely agreed
with the district attorney,even though they were wrong in
that moment and they knew theywere wrong.
They ended up eventuallydropping this charge on this kid
because they knew they werewrong.
(25:40):
I told them, first and foremost, I'm not going to show up and
my testimony is not going toreflect what you want it to, and
so they ended up dropping itlong, you know.
Again, long story short.
But it goes back to the cultureand, like you said earlier, I
think everything, quiteliterally everything in law
enforcement, begins at the top,with leadership.
Travis Yates (26:03):
You know, the federal government's got a
whistleblower policy and nowthey get around that.
Steve Framble described thatspecifically.
But do you know of any agenciesthat have an actual policy for
whistleblower status?
Because this is kind of whatwe're talking about here.
People, you're the only one.
I'm going to assume that youwere the one of the few that
would stand up like this, butmost people won't, because they
(26:26):
fear retribution.
Right, that's the differencebetween courage and cowards.
Courageous, they know what'sright and wrong.
Just like you said, they'regoing to do what's right, no
matter what.
They work with a set ofprinciples where nobody's going
to get in the way of thoseprinciples.
Well, law enforcement is in astate of fear of everybody,
particularly their managementoftentimes.
I don't want anybody to getdepressed and we're talking
about all agencies.
Of course we're not.
(26:46):
You're an idiot if you thinkthat, but we need to talk about
the agencies that are like thisor we're never going to solve
this issue.
Just like you, justin, peopleget upset at the things I say.
I was canceled from twoconferences this year and
because they didn't want to hearthis type of thing, which I'm
like.
Good, if you don't want to hearfrom me, then I know I should
never come back to yourconference because I know what
you're about and because I wantto know right up front and I
(27:09):
don't want to solve it.
You don't talk about theproblem, you don't solve it.
So would that not make a strongstatement as a leader if you
took a bold stance andimplemented a policy to protect
people like yourself that wantedto see corruption?
Because we, we do that when itmakes the leaders look good.
Right, oh, we have a, whateverthey call it.
(27:30):
You can interrupt use of forceat any time and stop it.
You know, if you don't do itfrom a backing officer and stop
this excessive force that youperceive to be excessive, then
we're going to discipline you.
Well, what about the chiefsthat do things like this to you?
That may not be on a bodycamera, but they're even more
destructive oftentimes?
(27:50):
What if they would take theboat stance to implement an
actual policy to protect peoplelike yourself?
Would that not send a message?
Justin Carlson (27:56):
No, yeah, it absolutely would.
Now I don't just sitting herethinking right off the bat
there's no agency that comes tomind.
Obviously I'm not going to saythat that doesn't exist, but
there's no agency that comes tomind Number one that I know of
currently or number two that Ihave ever heard of, number two
(28:24):
that I have ever heard of.
You know, you do a lot moretraveling and go to a lot of
agencies, so maybe you have thatinsight and that knowledge, but
, as of right now, I don't knowof an agency that has the
whistleblower policy.
So I mean, of course, at facevalue, everybody likes in these
piddly handbooks and these SOPsthat you have at these
organizations and at thesecities and these counties, it'll
(28:45):
obviously say, yeah, you cancome report, but, travis, in my
experience you can't come report.
And so, yeah, I think it wouldmake a very bold statement.
But you know a lot of the times,you know what's crazy is a lot
of the times when you, when yougo, report these, these, this
(29:07):
misconduct and these things, itinvolves some of the top people.
And you know, when you have thetop people that are involved in
the misconduct, then I meanthat's obviously a problem
because you know who's going toinvestigate that right?
And the problem is these, a lotof these people form these
(29:28):
relationships and so they feelbound by their relationship with
each other to overlook somethings, and so, again, that just
goes back to cowards and that'sall that is.
And it runs rampant, man, itjust runs rampant in our law
enforcement agencies today.
And it's sad because then youhave organizations, one in
(29:53):
particular that I can think of.
I've had the co-chair on mypodcast, the Lamplighter Project
.
Um, those are all cops.
I don't know if you ever heardof it, but the Lamplighter
Project, those are all cops.
Um, who formed that nonprofitfor other cops to be able to
come to them when they arewhistleblowers, and, um, they
(30:15):
helped them through, uh, a lotof the the procedures and
processes, but, um, processes.
But it's unfortunate that wedon't have that built into our
agencies.
Travis Yates (30:27):
Well, it says everything that you don't know
of an agency and I don't know ofan agency, and most of us just
talk.
Now you're right about onething you could put a policy out
, but the policy is only good ifit's actually enforced, if it's
actually practiced.
It's like when these chiefs gooh I have an open door policy,
well, good luck getting anybodycoming in your door.
If they don't, if you'vecreated a toxic culture, right.
But they love to check the boxand say that.
(30:49):
So I'm going to talk about acheck the box policy.
I want to just challenge ourlisteners.
We have chiefs, we havesheriffs listening to this.
You need that policy.
You need to assure your peoplethat you will root out
corruption, and we will send youa model policy, we will send
you the ideology on how to dothis.
One of the things that we liketo advocate is anonymous phone
(31:09):
numbers.
Right, like I can reportsomething anonymously.
Well, you let citizens reportthings anonymously on your
officers.
Why would you not let your ownofficers report things
anonymously?
And I know people are going togo oh, this is going to create
chaos.
No, it won't.
You'll know real quick whetherit's somebody playing a game or
trolling, or it's accurate,right, but, but you have to
actually get that information,and so I don't think I'm going
(31:30):
to have a string of emailspeople wanting to do it.
But that's a problem in theprofession and that doesn't.
That doesn't mean that we thinkall these agencies are horrible
.
It just means that if you don'thave these instruments in place
, what does that say about you,right?
I'm not sure how to answer that.
We have a lot to fix in theprofession and listen, that's
why we both do what we do.
(31:50):
We may do it from differentangles or different platforms,
but we both want the most.
Professional.
Law enforcement is out thereand, by the way, listening to
insane people with purple hairhas not done it for us, trust me
.
If it did, I would beadvocating for it, but that's
not going to work.
Just look around, you're doingthat now and that doesn't work,
and so, um, so we need some ofthese, uh, instruments of
(32:13):
accountability in place, and uh,that seems to be very easy to
do, right?
And uh, the fact there has tobe a nonprofit that exists to
take care of thesewhistleblowers is shocking.
It should be shocking in anyorganization.
I would just submit this to youIf any private company didn't
have this type of policy, thatwould be well known.
People would be outraged bythat right, and so the fact that
(32:36):
we don't have some sort ofeffort to do this is pretty
surprising, and so I think wehave more things to talk about.
Justin, I want to get back to aquestion I asked you several
minutes ago because it's reallyimportant.
I think I know the answer,because everybody I ask this
question gives me the sameanswer.
Why are you different?
What made you stand up?
Because I want to express thisto our audience how difficult
(32:57):
this is to do.
You stand up and nobody elsestands up with you.
That's a pretty isolated thingto go through, and there's
trauma involved in that.
Whether you want to admit it ornot, this profession was not
what you thought it was.
You know we're all recruited inthis profession of God bless
America, red, white, blue, goodversus evil, but you don't
(33:18):
realize the evil's settingacross from you at a squad table
and um, but what made you standup when everybody else sat down
?
What is it about youspecifically because I'm
obsessed with this and thecharacteristics behind this what
was it about you specificallythat made you do the right thing
when the costs were tremendous?
Justin Carlson (33:40):
Well, here's the thing, Travis, the reason.
I know this happens and it'snot isolated, and I know that it
happens in many places.
This happened to me twice.
Actually, I had told you that Igot out of law enforcement for
(34:03):
about two years.
I had a very successful privatebusiness.
Um, I mean, I was making.
I was I mean I made a quartermillion dollars in a year and a
half and that was that's not lawenforcement, money like that's
money that I was like what isgoing on?
But I didn't, I didn't have asense of purpose during that
time and that's what made me sayI only got out if let's, let's
(34:29):
be clear here.
I thought, and I tried toconvince myself that I got out
because I was tired of lawenforcement.
I wasn't tired of lawenforcement.
Um, yeah, there were somethings that you know working
child sex crimes for five yearsin a row.
That'll take a toll on yourmental health.
But I was convinced and I toldeverybody that I was just tired
(34:53):
of law enforcement.
But the fact is, I got outbecause I wanted to expose some
serious corruption.
And then, two years later, Isold my private business and I
got back in law enforcement,which is right around.
You know, you met me when Iworked at my last agency and,
man, there was a lot of thingsgoing on there misappropriation
(35:15):
of funds, and I'm just like whatis going on right now.
You know why am I faced withthis again?
And a lot of those people, alot of my, a lot of those people
who dislike what I do, say well, problems, just follow you.
And I said, I mean, I guessthat's maybe one take.
Travis Yates (35:36):
Well, it's not an accurate take.
That's a take of people withtheir head in the sand right.
Justin Carlson (35:41):
Again, I'm a believer that all things happen
for a reason and that maybe Iwas meant to go to this agency
because when I started exposingthese things at this other
agency now I did at that agencymanager was somebody that I.
(36:02):
I just I felt that he was goingto handle things properly and
so I took it to him.
I took it all to him, I hadreceipts in my hand and they
covered it up I mean, covered itup with a heavy wool blanket,
and I wasn't accepting of that.
I didn't accept that, and so Itold them I didn't accept that.
(36:23):
They fired me.
I was actually fired from thatagency and that lit a fire under
my rear end, because it's thefirst time I'd ever been fired.
It was an experience, I assureyou it was.
It was an experience.
And eight weeks later, uh, thatfire under my rear end led to
(36:44):
that chief getting the chiefthat fired me.
He got fired because ofeverything that I was trying to
show them, but they covered itup.
And then what happens when you,um, what happens when you cover
things up?
It starts to seep out, and so,um, my point is, um, I tell that
(37:04):
story to to kind of lay afoundation.
To answer your question, Idon't know exactly what it is
about me.
Um, there are a few things.
I just find it that when Iraised my right hand just as you
(37:28):
did and so many of the othersprobably listening to this
podcast and took an oath and Iknow this sounds so cliche, I'm
not trying to sound noble, I'mnot trying to just, oh, you know
, I'm just this big, courageousperson.
But, man, I take that seriousand I equate it to a child.
We have children, we have youngchildren, and those children,
(38:01):
whether they know it or not,trust us to look after them.
And it's the same with lawenforcement.
We are put in those positions.
Leaders are put in thosepositions.
Chiefs, sheriffs, street cops,jailers, judges, district
attorneys, you name it.
All of these people are put inthese positions.
They're positions of trust and,like I said earlier, we are
(38:23):
supposed to be good stewards ofthe trust of the public and when
that is violated, it justdoesn't sit right with me, um,
because it that's not, it's justnot okay and it just doesn't
(38:45):
sit right with me, and so maybeGod put that in me just to be
the kind of person that I am.
Again, I don't like to thinkmore highly of myself than I
should, but I just I believe Godbuilt me for that.
I don't know why, because,you're right, it does feel
(39:06):
sometimes like you're on anisland, very lonely.
But some of the encouragementthat I get and you know what's
crazy about this too, travis, isa lot of the encouragement I
get, um are from active cops whoinbox me.
They're too afraid to putsomething on a public comment
section, whether whether it beYouTube or Facebook or TikTok,
(39:30):
instagram, you name it.
I get a ton of inbox messages,emails saying hey, you know, I'm
a cop in Maine, I'm a cop inMichigan, I'm a cop in Virginia
I found your podcast, man, weappreciate what you do or even a
lot of cops from my twoprevious agencies, and you know
why that is.
It's because they're in fearthat if they come out in support
(39:52):
of what is right and what isjust, then they are.
They are fearful that they'regoing to lose their jobs too,
and that is nothing short ofdisgusting in my opinion.
In my opinion, it you nobodyshould have fear lingering over
them, that that they're going toget fired or demoted or written
(40:17):
up or have any kind of hardshipat work because they stand up
for what's just and what's right.
And you know, I don't know if Idirectly answered your question
, but, uh, as tough as it is, um, I look at my journey and I
(40:38):
know that God put me in thisposition, uh, for, for a reason,
and um, I've, I've seen thefruits of, of, of that labor.
Travis Yates (40:47):
Justin Carlson, you did what these is the
purpose and mission with us hereat courageous leadership.
You put that coward out to therest home and that's what we
want to do with all of them.
We want to eradicate thecowards in this profession.
Um, I'm honored you came on theshow.
I'm so thankful for what you do.
How can people reach you?
How can they listen to thepodcast?
Kind of give them all that, allthat tidbit of information.
Justin Carlson (41:10):
Yeah, so you can go to failingjusticeorg.
That's where all my informationis.
There's podcast links forYouTube, spotify, apple or
wherever you get your podcasts.
We're pretty much on all themajor podcast platforms, so
failingjust um, and thencarlssonsolutionsnet, which is
my private investigations firm.
(41:31):
Um, if anybody needs privateinvestigations or um background
checks for their law enforcementagency, uh, we have a team of
guys that uh former detectivesthat work on those, and so, um,
carlssonsolutions net or failingjustice dot org is how you can
reach me.
Travis Yates (41:52):
Well, earlier in the show we talked about some
easy actions that courageousleaders can do, which is to
implement a whistleblower typepolicy even anonymous reports
for corruption or bad dealingsinside an agency.
But let me encourage them to doone more action item and it's
just brought to mind because,obviously, background checks are
extremely important.
I think it's even moreimportant to have a third party
(42:13):
do those, justin, because thenif something happens down the
line, they don't accuse theagency of missing something.
There's been plenty of reportson that and, of course, the
trouble that comes with that,and so having an independent
agency do that is important.
You do that with that, and sohaving an independent agency do
that is important.
You do that.
But the other thing that locallaw enforcement typically
doesn't do is, believe it or not, the federal government does do
(42:34):
this law enforcement.
They do background checks everyfive years on their employees,
and I haven't heard of an agencyunless you're in narcotics do
that.
And that seems to be odd to me,because when you hire a 21, 25
year old kid, they have onebackground, but when they're 40,
they have a differentbackground, and we tend to just
hide our eyes and ignore all ofthat.
(42:55):
I think it would be extremelyimportant for law enforcement to
do these background checksevery five years.
That's the federal standard.
If you want to push that to 10years, that's one thing, but at
least do multiple backgroundchecks.
And you're not doing thatbecause you think your
department's full of these badactors.
You're doing that to get leftof bane, to get left of a
problem, right, and then do notnot just to get people in
(43:17):
trouble, but maybe people needhelp, right.
That's.
That's part of caring for yourdepartment, caring for your
officers, and so that is alsosomething we should start doing,
and I I would assume, justin,your company would do that as
well.
Justin Carlson (43:30):
Yeah, and I mean you do make a good point.
You put somebody that's greenbehind the ear, 21 years old, be
a police officer.
You know, five, 10 years laterthey may be two divorces under
their belt and just PTSD riddenfrom.
No them what they faced whenthey were a police officer.
And again, not to scare thepolice officers or make them
(43:54):
feel like they're in trouble,but I think you made a great
point.
There's so many officers outthere and they don't.
They're not just afraid to sayanything about misconduct, but a
lot of them are afraid to sayand I'm sure I've listened to
your podcast.
Y'all talked about this plentyabout their mental health.
So, um, there's plenty ofreasons to uh conduct a periodic
(44:15):
background checks.
Again, whether you say fiveyears or 10 years, um, that is
something that that, uh, wewould do.
And and, uh, our team that doesthe background checks, we're um
, all certified to do thosechecks.
We did them as law enforcementofficers, so we all know what
we're doing and how to do it andwhat law enforcement agencies
expect.
(44:35):
And so if there's anybody thatneeds that background check that
is a law enforcement agency,reach out to us.
Whether it's one or 50, youknow we can accommodate it all.
Travis Yates (44:49):
Excellent.
Justin Carlson, thanks so muchfor being here and, if you've
been listening, thank you forspending your time with us.
And just remember lead on andstay courageous.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Thank you for listening to Courageous
Leadership with Travis Yates.
We invite you to join othercourageous leaders at www.
travisyates.
org.
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