January 14, 2025 • 30 mins
Grappling arts like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu can revolutionize law enforcement training, offering officers practical skills that enhance safety and community trust. Dr. Jeremy Butler emphasizes the need for continuous, realistic training methods that move beyond outdated practices, ultimately fostering better control and minimizing harm in tense situations.
• Discusses the importance of grappling-based training for police officers
• Highlights Dr. Butler's extensive background in law enforcement and martial arts
• Explores the need for realistic, hands-on training methods
• Emphasizes overcoming ego to engage in continuous learning
• Provides guidance on forming partnerships with martial arts gyms
• Presents research supporting the benefits of BJJ in reducing injuries
• Encourages setting specific training goals for personal and professional growth
• Advocates for a culture of proactive, capability-focused training in law enforcement
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (00:00):
And why do I say a grappling-based art?
Because I feel anytime you haveto put hands on a subject,
you're essentially grapplingwith them.
If they resist you, right, soit is inevitable, right.
The act of struggling withanother person to seize hold of
or control that person isgrappling.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates,
where leaders find the insights,advice and encouragement they
need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates (00:30):
Welcome back to the show.
I'm so honored you decided tospend a few minutes with us here
today and I'm excited abouttoday's guest.
You will be as well.
Dr Jeremy Butler is a formerpolice officer with over 20
years of martial arts experience.
Jeremy Butler is a formerpolice officer with over 20
years of martial arts experience.
He's the author of theincredible book Stop Resisting.
He trains law enforcement andcontrol tactics, de-escalation
(00:51):
and mental performance acrossthe country.
A lot of stuff to talk abouttoday, dr Butler.
How are you doing, sir?
I'm doing good.
How are you?
I'm great.
So I mean, I'll first talk aboutyour book and this is how you
came on the radar and I have totell everybody listening you
need to go get it.
I'm sure it's on all thebooksellers.
I got it on Amazon.
It's called Stop Resisting theLaw Enforcement Officer's Guide
(01:12):
to Prove and Control Taxes, lessLawsuits and Building Community
Trust Through Martial Arts.
I couldn't think of a bettersubtitle because we've been kind
of going round and round abouthow to deal with use of force
and things like that, becauseI'll tell you, modern law
enforcement training.
It's improved.
But I'll never forget that thosesilly arm bars they taught me
(01:32):
in the academy never worked.
That silly plastic ass theygave me never really worked.
And it wasn't until the tailend of my career when I got into
altercation with a little95-pound-like woman, uh, who
shouldn't have been able to bethat spider-like, but I was
trying to keep from essentiallyreally hurting her, right, I was
trying to do some things to nothurt her and, uh, I confided in
(01:55):
a friend of mine after that, drButler, and I said do you have
any suggestions?
And he said without hesitationthis wasn't my department, it
wasn't my boss, it wasn't theacademy, it was a friend of mine
that said you need to get intomy jujitsu gym.
And I did that and it changedmy entire mentality.
What we've been teaching lawenforcement and you've got
incredible background and stuff.
(02:15):
I can't even.
I can't even pronounce most ofyour certifications and your all
your black belt.
So I'll let you do the talking.
But I know you spent severalyears in law enforcement.
Tell us your experience withthe training that was going on
versus reality.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (02:32):
Well, I'll say there was a lot of, I feel
like, in my background, a lot ofyou know politics, I guess you
can say so.
It seems like some of thetraining was um politics, I
guess you can say so.
It seems like some of thetraining was really more about
checking the box and making sureyou're, you know, fulfilling
you know, whatever uh saying wedid it right, we did it, don't
(02:53):
forget sign the pledge.
Travis Yates (02:54):
We signed the pledge that makes us better
exactly so.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (02:58):
So I definitely felt like I was
seeing a lot of a lot of that.
Uh, in my experience and that'snot even calling out any
particular department, I'm justsaying overall in the law
enforcement industry, I noticedthat sort of trend, and so for
me that got a little frustrating.
Being a martial artist, beingsomeone with my background has
always been my passion.
(03:18):
I mean, I started when I wasabout 12 years old, so it's been
many, many years of training,and so for me it was like I know
that these things that we'redoing could be better.
I'm not saying it's allhorrible, I'm just saying we're
not.
I didn't feel like we werepositioning officers the way
that we should be consideringwhat's being asked of law
enforcement.
(03:39):
So that's what really drove meto get into the research, get
into the writing and doing thework myself to help educate
officers.
Travis Yates (03:47):
Well, one person changes everything.
And I call you, know, andthat's what you're doing.
Because I'm amazed we're thisfar down in in law enforcement
in this country and we don't seemore of this, and I think a lot
of it is, like you said, theold standard way of doing things
, old types of training,politics or, or, dr Butler, what
do you know?
You're a rookie, we're notgoing to listen to you and all
(04:08):
the stuff that I have to imagine.
It was probably incrediblyfrustrating.
You just sat here and think toyourself man, I know how to do
this way better because of mytraining, but we're not going to
call anybody out.
But I know my experience is wedon't listen to the right people
.
Oftentimes we listen to peoplethat maybe have been there for a
hundred years and we listen tothem.
We don't actually tap into theexpertise or agencies.
And and it's become to me verypresent that's why I have you on
(04:32):
the show because we're notgiving our officers, uh, the
tools they need to overcome somuch that they're dealt with.
That they're dealing with today, right, I mean, it's not using
a taser in every incidentclearly doesn't work.
And then many of these officers, that's the only tools they
have and I see a hesitation togo hands-on because they clearly
(04:52):
don't have the tools to gohands-on.
But that changes the game ifthey, if they have the
confidence and the training andtools to be able to quickly go
hands-on.
Get handcuffs on people becauselast, because last time I
checked, I'm not trained likeyou, dr Butler, but these are
the only things that can reallykill you.
Is this right here?
And there's a ton of items, aton of things we can do for our
(05:13):
officers, and I guess I wouldjust get straight to the point.
So there's a ton of differentmartial arts out there.
I don't I'd love to see entiredepartments pick up on this.
I know some of have.
We'll talk about that.
But as an individual officerlike me, you know, I'm thinking
it was much easier to go intomartial arts at age 12 than it
was at age 50, right, I mean?
So obviously I'm at adisadvantage, but I had to
(05:33):
overcome a couple of things andI bet it's it's the same
thinking that officers have.
Well, I've been here 28 yearsand I haven't, you know, had
this or this happen.
And how am I going to walk intothis gym with a bunch of,
basically, kids that know betterthan me how do I overcome it.
You've got to stop your ego atthe door.
You've got to just know thatyour safety and, like you said
(05:54):
in this book, less lawsuits,better community trust is more
important than your precious ego.
It changed the dynamics, don'tget me wrong.
I was beat up by many a12-year-old doing Jiu-Jitsu gym.
I changed the dynamics.
Now don't get me wrong.
I was beat up by many a 12 yearold in the Jiu-Jitsu gym.
I still am today, but I know Iknew more after one week than I
knew after 20 plus years in lawenforcement.
So if somebody's out there andthey're thinking to themselves,
(06:15):
you know what?
I don't think.
The old arm bar and wristcontrol in the basic academy
where everybody says, uncle,really quick and it just seems
to work and I, I check the boxand I'm certified in real life.
That probably doesn't help.
I need to quit just laying backand thinking this taser is
going to work, because if tasertells us it works 40 of the time
, that means 10 of the time.
We know that and uh, and whereyou're from, dr butler and co,
(06:37):
weather jackets and all theother stuff's going to prevent
that.
So we've sort of lied and fibbedto officers.
We've told them this technologyis their answer, but we haven't
seen shootings go down.
We haven't seen use of force godown.
If anything, we've seen themincrease in recent years.
There's a, there's alow-hanging fruit out there that
very few people want to talkabout, and that is martial arts,
which you're an expert at.
(06:58):
So what would you tell anofficer thinking about this?
How do they start?
Because there, because there'sa ton of different martial arts.
Right, I have a feeling whichone you're going to say.
How do they start when it comesto this?
Dr. Jeremy Butler (07:09):
Well, I think it starts with the power of
Google Find what's available inyour area.
But as far as myrecommendations, I am a huge
proponent for law enforcement,of a grappling based art, for me
, number one being BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.
But that does not mean judodoesn't count.
I think that would work well.
(07:30):
Wrestling even an officer whowrestled in high school has a
huge advantage in that regard.
And why do I say agrappling-based art?
Because I feel, anytime youhave to put hands on a subject,
you're essentially grapplingwith them.
If they resist you, so it isinevitable.
Because I feel anytime you haveto put hands on a subject,
you're essentially grapplingwith them if they resist you,
right?
So it is inevitable, right?
The act of struggling withanother person to seize hold of
(07:54):
or control that person isgrappling, so why not get good
in that particular area?
So, for me, grappling-basedarts are my main recommendation.
Now, if you could get into anarea where you could also
incorporate striking, that'sgood, because that's what's
likely to happen with thesubject.
(08:14):
But arts like BrazilianJiu-Jitsu when you're at the
right school.
That's the one thing Iappreciate about it is that you
can incorporate striking-basedtraining without actually
hurting each other, right?
You can simulate strikes and itgives you that awareness of
what's going on.
And one thing that I talk aboutin the book is, for example, if
you were to find a place totrain let's say, for example,
(08:38):
it's jujitsu even if you were ata sport-based school right
where they don't do any striking, that doesn't mean you can't
have that in your mind whenyou're training, right.
So one of the places that I'vetrained throughout my life is a
sport-based school and we didn'treally address striking.
But whenever I rode which islive grappling whenever I went
(09:01):
live, I was thinking right now,can he touch my face, can he
access my belt, things of thatnature.
When that's fresh in my mind,I'm able to get the same benefit
, if that makes sense.
Travis Yates (09:14):
No, I think part of the obstacle to many agencies
is we're kind of hung up onwhat things look like, right, I
mean, I could tell story afterstory of officers doing the
right thing at my agency orothers, but the administration
was more concerned of what itlooked like, got to get away
(09:38):
from that.
But that I have a theory.
It's not grounded anything.
But my crazy mind is we don'tsee a lot of emphasis on
brazilian jiu-jitsu or thesegrappling things, because from
afar that looks kind of bad.
Right, we're on top of somebody, we're controlling somebody,
but the alternative is, is we'rehitting them with a fist or
we're having to shoot them,we're having to tase them.
I've never understood why wedon't embrace this, because what
I found out and you would bethe expert here, dr Butler is
(10:00):
you can control somebody withjust.
I think you described fivethings in your book to learn
immediately.
But it doesn't take really anexpert to learn these
controlling mechanisms becausefortunately, most people we
fight with are not highlytrained martial arts people.
Those folks tend to be verydisciplined.
They're not going to be peoplewe're running across, running
into in the streets and I'd sayit couldn't have happened.
(10:21):
But most people have no senseof this whatsoever.
They're just fighting.
They're like this fighter ladythat I had to fight with, and
you can use some control tacticsthat is not that difficult to
learn to really, in my mind,decrease injury.
You may be still writing theuse of force report, but it's
going to decrease the injuriesthat's going to occur.
(10:44):
Do you find that to be true?
Dr. Jeremy Butler (10:45):
Yes, because there's no.
Again, when I talk aboutincorporated striking, the
officer isn't throwing thestrikes.
The officer is making sure thatthey're remaining safe by
controlling the distance betweenthemselves and the subject.
So, absolutely right, you'regoing to really be protecting
that person and yourself bygaining control of them and
maintaining that control untilthat person decides they're
(11:08):
ready to go in cuffs.
So if we learn this way to slowthings down to a certain extent
, I think it can certainly help.
Obviously, circumstances dictatetactics.
So my thing is I don't thinkanything is an end-all, be-all.
There are limitations to agrappling-based art in certain
instances, right, like there arecertain environments where you
(11:28):
don't want to, but that doesn'tmean that you shouldn't train it
.
I'd say, under mostcircumstances it's inevitable,
right?
Whether you want it to or not,the situation is going to end up
in this, in close entanglement,and more than likely you are
going to fall to the ground,right?
The other thing I want to sayin relation to that is, even if
you do come across a situationwhere this person is
(11:50):
significantly bigger, strongerthan you or even superior to you
physically, you can still beable to survive with these
skills.
So let's say you have, and Iteach at a police academy and I
tell this to my smaller officersand my female officers all the
time.
Right, they may feel, okay, Itry to, you know.
(12:11):
Let's say I do get this guydown and I try to put him in
side control.
If he's 100 pounds heavier thanme, he could just literally
throw me off.
And I'm like, yes, that ispossible.
The level of training you haveright now, someone superior in
size may be able to throw youoff.
The more training you get, themore consistent you are, the
(12:34):
less likely that is to happen.
But there is a certain pointwhere it's just we have to
respect nature.
But my thing is, are you anyworse off with those skills?
Even, let's say, this personthrew you off and jumped on top
of you.
I have so much faith in theperson with the years of
grappling training on bottom ofa guy twice their size.
Right, then I do a person whohas gone through our standard
(12:58):
law enforcement curriculum.
Why?
Because they spent hours andhours and hours of time in these
bad positions, in theseinferior positions, so they're
able to remain calm under thestress of having someone bigger,
heavier, stronger than you ontop of you.
So it's the attribute that wemust consider here too is the
attribute of getting used tobeing in that struggle and a
(13:20):
relatively safe environment.
Travis Yates (13:22):
So when it happens on the job, you're not panicked
, you're like I've been herebefore, I can control the
distance, I can control thedamage that the person can do to
me, and that was one of thefirst things that I was shown,
as my white belt self wasgetting beat up by 12 year olds,
is is they would put you inthese very uncomfortable,
uncomfortable positions and your, your, your, your default is to
(13:42):
panic, is to exert more energy,but you're going to flame out
very quickly, right, and?
And so be able to getcomfortable in that was a huge
help.
I laughed, I laughed.
I think I saw you post theother day about having goals of
being able to go five rounds ofthese.
Five rounds of training back toback.
(14:03):
To back should be ultimate goal, and I'll never forget the
first time.
It's OK, five minutes, some arefive minute, five minute round.
I thought, ok, how hard wouldthis be.
I watch this on TV.
Yeah, until you do five minutesfor the first time, you don't
realize how difficult that is,and I eventually got to where I
could do four or fiveback-to-back-to-back without
taking a break.
But people don't realize that,and this is a regressive skill.
(14:23):
I'm just concerned and why I'mglad you're on is is we give
this training in the academy.
It's not enough to reallyingrain muscle memory in, but
then we don't typically give itagain, right, and there's a
reason why people train inmartial arts two or three, four
times a week, sometimes more,because it's that regressive
(14:44):
skill and so, if you're,obviously the answer is for
individuals listening to this togo and pursue this to make sure
they're prepared.
But I think really this has gotto be on our police leaders.
You know we interviewed chiefJim Franklin from Rochester,
minnesota, and the reason weinterviewed him about a year ago
is because I'll put the episodelink down below the show notes
is because he not onlycoordinated with a local jujitsu
(15:07):
gym to train his entiredepartment, but he went himself
and they eventually ended up,you know, all belting together
and moving up and they trainedtogether like that every day.
So I thought that was soamazing.
It shouldn't be be amazing.
We should have chiefs andsheriffs training with their
personnel all the time.
But it was such a unique story.
I had him on.
It was one of our most listenedto episodes.
I think it's because it was sointeresting and so amazing that
(15:29):
it's happening.
But there's not a policedepartment in the country that
within earshot could not find atrainer or gym to partner with
them, probably at a discountedcost or almost for nothing.
I train for nothing at ourlocal gym, because there's
always gyms that want to trainlaw enforcement.
They recognize that.
So if you're a leader listeningto this and you recognize, not
(15:51):
only for yourself but for yourofficers, you need to provide
this.
How should they go aboutfinding that gym Like when they
look at gyms?
I mean you need to go a littledeeper than Google, because not
every gym's the same.
What type of questions shouldthey ask that gym owner before
they make that partnership?
Dr. Jeremy Butler (16:05):
Yeah, so so for sure, the the first step is
making sure it's practical interms of location, right.
So this is why I say start withGoogle, right, find what do you
have in your area and then fromthere it's a matter of
contacting that business andhaving that conversation.
Oftentimes you'll find that,you know, depending on the size
(16:29):
of the department, there'sofficers that do train in some
of these gyms.
So being able to first of allkind of see right, there's
anybody that's already in lawenforcement community that does
train I think is a big thingbecause they can bridge that
sort of gap.
But, yeah, sitting down andhaving that conversation with
that business owner and sayingwhat your needs are, what your
(16:51):
interests are and I don't knowmany martial arts schools that
don't have an interest inhelping the law enforcement
community, right.
So I do think it will be apretty seamless transition.
I can give you a coupleexamples of this.
I presented in Atlanta a coupleof years ago I think it was that
conference where I talked aboutthis, my experience with this
(17:14):
very thing.
So the place that I trained inmy area, it happens to be
literally around the corner fromthe police department and this
police department I gotconnected with the chief.
He liked me, so I started doingin-service trainings for them.
The limitation was that thespace that the agency is pretty
(17:35):
small.
They didn't really have muchspace for us to really get into
any training.
So I said straight up hey, Itrained at the jujitsu agency is
pretty small, they didn'treally have much space for us to
really get into any training so.
So I said straight up you know,hey, I trained at the jujitsu
school around the corner.
Maybe I can connect you guyswith them, and then we can see
if we can work something out.
Long story short, we got to apoint where we worked out where
the owners of the of the jujitsuschool don't use the facility
(17:55):
during the day, so theyessentially allowed me, they
gave me a key and allowed me totrain this police department
during the day on the jiu-jitsumats, right, and they were
getting accreditation for theirtraining.
So it's just being able to findthose connecting points and
using that networking to make itwork.
If you don't have any foundation, again, it starts with a phone
call agency, introducingyourself to the business owner
(18:18):
and maybe setting up a meeting.
Another thing I think toconsider here, though, is the
school that you, that you selectRight, because not every
martial art is necessarily goingto be applicable for law
enforcement Right.
So so you have to consider whatare your needs as an agency.
Ideally talk to officers whocurrently train.
(18:38):
Also, again, things like mybook, my research, there's
information out there to givethese agencies context right
from actual officers or formerofficers.
So gathering that information Ithink is big, and then just
taking it from there and if anyofficers, any agencies actually
(18:58):
interested in something likethat, I'm sure they can reach
out to yourself or myself and wecan kind of help guide them in
that direction if they're, ifthey're really serious about
that.
But yeah, I will.
Travis Yates (19:09):
I think that's one of the unfortunate things,
because as a leader, there is noexcuse Like these.
Gyms, by and large, are verypatriotic.
They're very pro lawenforcement, they understand the
issues we face.
They understand oftentimes ourtraining doesn't meet what the
demands are out there on thestreet.
I mean I haven't found any ofthem that will not work with you
now.
(19:29):
Uh, I mean, there's even somewebsites that I've seen where
these martial arts folks arejust there.
It's for free, like I would be.
I'd be shocked if it wasn and Iknow there's some online things
.
I'm a member of Gracie's OnlineAcademy.
I'll be honest, it doesn'treally work for me because I'm
(19:50):
just the only person here doingit.
So unless I buy one of thosesilly dummies on Amazon, I can't
really do much with watchingonline, but I guess that could
be an option as well.
Do you know of any onlineprograms?
Because I use the supplement.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (20:03):
I don't use it primarily to do it, but
there's just a lot ofinformation out there, but with
a lot of information there's alot of bad information.
So is any recommendations foronline to supplement it?
Yes, so now I'm not going tocall out any like specific
organization, but again I wouldsay, thinking about what is the
(20:25):
aim of a police officer, youwant to do minimum, you want
maximum control, minimum harmright In that situation, and
ideally you really we can goback and say this comes down to
even our deescalatory skills,right, being able to have the
confidence to speak up and talkthis person down, right.
But so for me, like I said,grappling based systems are
(20:47):
paramount.
Fortunately, there is a ton ofonline content nowadays related
to that.
If you look into like if youwere to Google, something like
police and grappling, police andjujitsu, you're more likely to
find results that are going toconnect the law enforcement
(21:07):
industry with thegrappling-based training, right.
So I mean, I'd say it's reallymore down to you, know, you
sitting down and doing your ownresearch.
I don't like to call outspecific organizations.
I'm not affiliated with aspecific organization that
actually does a law enforcementdirect, but there are some out
there.
(21:27):
I think when we get too wrappedup in like specific companies.
I think we lose the contexthere.
I think it's more about theattribute, developing this
attribute.
So if you were to find anygrappling base system or you
were to find an online platformthat works for you as far as the
limitation that you'representing with being by
yourself, if you're in an agency, all you need is one other
(21:50):
officer, right, who might alsoshare a similar interest, and
you guys can get together andreally work that out and drill
on your own time, right?
So that's something to consider.
But I don't think there's muchof a legitimate supplementing
person.
Face-to-face training, right,like if you have no other choice
, you're in a really small areaand there's nothing around, okay
(22:12):
, go online.
But I definitely think youreally need to be in an
environment where you're withanother person and you guys are
engaged.
Travis Yates (22:20):
And I tend to agree.
I really I go back to this isreally a leader's responsibility
.
You're going to have to answerfor injuries or excessive use of
force, so we've got to give allthe tools and training and
resources to our personnel if weexpect them to perform
adequately.
It's just not good enoughanymore to give them the state
minimum in a basic academy thenexpect them to always perform
(22:42):
exceptionally, because wesometimes put standards on these
men and women that are justnormal people, that are really
just not realistic, and sothere's not never been a better
opportunity now than to do this.
I just I find it crazy thatit's not being done more.
Once again.
I had one chief on that I founddoing it, but if, if somebody's
(23:03):
out there, they can reach outto me, they can reach out to you
, enable this for your personnel.
Maybe you don't make itmandatory.
I personally would, becausepeople are worried about
injuries, but just like CrossFitfound it actually created less
injuries with that platform,what type of research do you see
out there as far as traininginjuries or actually injuries to
suspects, because I have toimagine there's been some
studies that say this is betterto do than sort of the things
(23:25):
we're used to doing.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (23:27):
Yeah, a lot of the peer review research
still in the early stages but,yes, from the data I've seen, uh
and everybody knows about theuh sort of the, the landmark you
know, study with the uh man.
I'm drawing a blank on uhMarietta, is it Marietta?
Georgia?
Travis Yates (23:44):
I think so yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (23:56):
Yeah, yeah.
So their department did the big, the big study having their
officers trained to just do, andthey found reduced reductions
and injuries to officers andinjuries to civilians, right.
So we see some of that.
The peer review content is.
It's not as prominent right nowfor law enforcement, but that's
something that I think isbuilding more and more.
But if I was to say, if I wasto give advice to an agency in
terms of what they're lookingfor, I think the big picture one
is an ego-free environment,right.
(24:18):
So you want to be in anenvironment where it doesn't
seem like and that doesn't meanthat the school owner has ill
intent.
Sometimes there are justtraining rooms where the
participants are just you know,but they are testing the
training under resistance, right.
(24:53):
So if we only work undercompliance, we don't get that
live energy, right?
So, whatever facility agencymight consider partnering with,
there needs to be a component ofof live training for that that
area.
There needs to be a componentof live training for that area.
Many businesses are even oftenwilling to hold law enforcement
specific programming.
That's something that you candiscuss.
They may not offer it at thatmoment, but if you sit down and
(25:20):
have a conversation and say, heylook, I can provide X amount of
officers.
If you could provide this timeframe for you to train these
officers, I mean it's a win winsituation, situation right For
both sides.
And then you can go into policemore specific tactics.
Another company that comes tomind now that I want to sort of
plug is Adopt-A-Cop.
I'm not sure if you've heard ofthat Adopt-A-Cop.
BJJ so that's a nonprofitorganization where they'll fund
(25:44):
officers to get training injujitsu up to blue belt.
So that's another goodorganization that I think the
agencies can take advantage ofor at least make their officers
aware of that training that theycan engage in.
But I agree with you, it shouldbe an initiative on the side of
the police leadership to say,hey, we need to at least
(26:06):
consider what opportunities wehave in this area.
But the whole purpose behind mewriting this book was the fact
that unfortunately, we are notthere yet I don't think we're
there yet where we have all ofthis leadership that's valuing
this training.
So due to that, this book waslike a message to early career
(26:28):
officers and it's like look,you're entering into a career,
you need to value this training.
You need to do this trainingfrom hire to retire.
If you are swearing to serveand protect, that is a
responsibility, right.
So for me it's like okay, ifyour agency is not in a position
to support your consistenttraining, here's some things to
(26:49):
look at, right.
So I cover here some things tolook for in a martial arts
school.
Here's some arts to consider,as you pointed out.
What are some tactics?
I just published a study, thismonth actually, and it was some
of the content is in the bookabout the top techniques that
officers recommended.
So I essentially surveyed over300 police officers who train
(27:11):
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and I wantedtheir perceptions of the
training and I asked them ifthere were five techniques that
you would recommend, what wouldit be?
And control related positionswere they went to the forefront
right so knee and belly sidecontrol, gaining control of the
subject, which, by the way, iswhat's going to minimize harm.
(27:34):
I don't have to strike him if Ican keep him under control,
right?
So just things to consider.
Travis Yates (27:40):
Now, if you're just now joining us, we're
talking to Dr Jeremy Butler.
He's the author of thefantastic book.
You have to Go Get Called, stopResisting, and I think it's.
You know I got to give youcredit, dr Butler.
You know, obviously there's 30million books on Amazon.
Everybody is writing a bookthese days, but very few books,
I think, will make a lastingimpact on this profession.
I think this book does it.
(28:01):
It's a read for the novice.
You don't have to be somemaster, expert or martial arts
guru.
You could just be somebodyinterested or knowing you've got
to get better and it's going tohelp you out.
So I think you've done atremendous service here.
I can't thank you enough.
So if people are listening tous, I'm gonna give you the last
word and they're thinking youknow what I got to.
I got to I want to be better.
Today we're coming up onJanuary 1st.
(28:22):
This episode is dropping thefirst week of January.
So people, that's in thepeople's minds I want to be
better, both mentally.
I want to be better, betterphysically.
I want to be better prepared atwork.
Just give them quick advice onwhat they need to do to put that
into action.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (28:39):
I think it comes down to just that acting.
One big thing for me is goalsetting right, so establish what
you want, what is it that youwant, and write it down.
And there's actual researchthat shows when you write down
your goals, you are more likelyto pursue and accomplish them.
Right, so decide what it isthat you want and be specific
(29:03):
about it.
Again this is another area thatI address in the book is how do
you set goals?
Right, so you want them to bespecific, measurable, attainable
, relevant, time-bound right?
You've heard of SMART goals?
Right, so thinking about thebig picture also, and then
narrowing it down right.
So what is the long-term goal?
Where do you see it in thefuture?
(29:24):
And then, what are theshort-term steps?
That gets me to where I want tobe.
So, if you want to get to thatpoint where you are actively
training let's say two days aweek in your control tactics
okay, what are the steps to getyou to that point?
And then start with step oneand work at it.
So write it down and getstarted will be my biggest
(29:45):
advice.
Yeah, and write it down and getstarted is will be my my
biggest uh advice.
Travis Yates (29:48):
Yeah, and I guess I would add to that Somebody
will hold you accountable tothat, right, Uh, and of course
writing down this part of that,but you'll find somebody to hold
you accountable to that,whether that's your spouse or
whether it's somebody at work orwhoever.
It is so great stuff, Dr Butler.
How do they reach out to youfor more information?
Dr. Jeremy Butler (30:04):
reach out to you.
For more information, you cango to wwwjeremybutlerphdcom.
Wwwjeremybutlerphdcom.
You can find a link to my bookon there.
It's also if you were to justsearch Stop Resisting book or
Jeremy Butler, stop Resisting onAmazon, it'll come right up.
Travis Yates (30:22):
Dr Jeremy Butler, I can't thank you enough for
being here.
I think this is incredibleinformation.
We need to get this to themasses.
Thank you so much for doingthat, and if you've been
watching and you've beenlistening.
Thank you for doing that.
We'll see you next week.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Thank you for listening to Courageous
Leadership with Travis Yates.
We invite you to join othercourageous leaders at www.
travisyates.
org.
And why do I say a grappling-based art?
Because I feel anytime you haveto put hands on a subject,
you're essentially grapplingwith them.
If they resist you, right, soit is inevitable, right.
The act of struggling withanother person to seize hold of
or control that person isgrappling.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates,
where leaders find the insights,advice and encouragement they
need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates (00:30):
Welcome back to the show.
I'm so honored you decided tospend a few minutes with us here
today and I'm excited abouttoday's guest.
You will be as well.
Dr Jeremy Butler is a formerpolice officer with over 20
years of martial arts experience.
Jeremy Butler is a formerpolice officer with over 20
years of martial arts experience.
He's the author of theincredible book Stop Resisting.
He trains law enforcement andcontrol tactics, de-escalation
(00:51):
and mental performance acrossthe country.
A lot of stuff to talk abouttoday, dr Butler.
How are you doing, sir?
I'm doing good.
How are you?
I'm great.
So I mean, I'll first talk aboutyour book and this is how you
came on the radar and I have totell everybody listening you
need to go get it.
I'm sure it's on all thebooksellers.
I got it on Amazon.
It's called Stop Resisting theLaw Enforcement Officer's Guide
(01:12):
to Prove and Control Taxes, lessLawsuits and Building Community
Trust Through Martial Arts.
I couldn't think of a bettersubtitle because we've been kind
of going round and round abouthow to deal with use of force
and things like that, becauseI'll tell you, modern law
enforcement training.
It's improved.
But I'll never forget that thosesilly arm bars they taught me
(01:32):
in the academy never worked.
That silly plastic ass theygave me never really worked.
And it wasn't until the tailend of my career when I got into
altercation with a little95-pound-like woman, uh, who
shouldn't have been able to bethat spider-like, but I was
trying to keep from essentiallyreally hurting her, right, I was
trying to do some things to nothurt her and, uh, I confided in
(01:55):
a friend of mine after that, drButler, and I said do you have
any suggestions?
And he said without hesitationthis wasn't my department, it
wasn't my boss, it wasn't theacademy, it was a friend of mine
that said you need to get intomy jujitsu gym.
And I did that and it changedmy entire mentality.
What we've been teaching lawenforcement and you've got
incredible background and stuff.
(02:15):
I can't even.
I can't even pronounce most ofyour certifications and your all
your black belt.
So I'll let you do the talking.
But I know you spent severalyears in law enforcement.
Tell us your experience withthe training that was going on
versus reality.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (02:32):
Well, I'll say there was a lot of, I feel
like, in my background, a lot ofyou know politics, I guess you
can say so.
It seems like some of thetraining was um politics, I
guess you can say so.
It seems like some of thetraining was really more about
checking the box and making sureyou're, you know, fulfilling
you know, whatever uh saying wedid it right, we did it, don't
(02:53):
forget sign the pledge.
Travis Yates (02:54):
We signed the pledge that makes us better
exactly so.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (02:58):
So I definitely felt like I was
seeing a lot of a lot of that.
Uh, in my experience and that'snot even calling out any
particular department, I'm justsaying overall in the law
enforcement industry, I noticedthat sort of trend, and so for
me that got a little frustrating.
Being a martial artist, beingsomeone with my background has
always been my passion.
(03:18):
I mean, I started when I wasabout 12 years old, so it's been
many, many years of training,and so for me it was like I know
that these things that we'redoing could be better.
I'm not saying it's allhorrible, I'm just saying we're
not.
I didn't feel like we werepositioning officers the way
that we should be consideringwhat's being asked of law
enforcement.
(03:39):
So that's what really drove meto get into the research, get
into the writing and doing thework myself to help educate
officers.
Travis Yates (03:47):
Well, one person changes everything.
And I call you, know, andthat's what you're doing.
Because I'm amazed we're thisfar down in in law enforcement
in this country and we don't seemore of this, and I think a lot
of it is, like you said, theold standard way of doing things
, old types of training,politics or, or, dr Butler, what
do you know?
You're a rookie, we're notgoing to listen to you and all
(04:08):
the stuff that I have to imagine.
It was probably incrediblyfrustrating.
You just sat here and think toyourself man, I know how to do
this way better because of mytraining, but we're not going to
call anybody out.
But I know my experience is wedon't listen to the right people
.
Oftentimes we listen to peoplethat maybe have been there for a
hundred years and we listen tothem.
We don't actually tap into theexpertise or agencies.
And and it's become to me verypresent that's why I have you on
(04:32):
the show because we're notgiving our officers, uh, the
tools they need to overcome somuch that they're dealt with.
That they're dealing with today, right, I mean, it's not using
a taser in every incidentclearly doesn't work.
And then many of these officers, that's the only tools they
have and I see a hesitation togo hands-on because they clearly
(04:52):
don't have the tools to gohands-on.
But that changes the game ifthey, if they have the
confidence and the training andtools to be able to quickly go
hands-on.
Get handcuffs on people becauselast, because last time I
checked, I'm not trained likeyou, dr Butler, but these are
the only things that can reallykill you.
Is this right here?
And there's a ton of items, aton of things we can do for our
(05:13):
officers, and I guess I wouldjust get straight to the point.
So there's a ton of differentmartial arts out there.
I don't I'd love to see entiredepartments pick up on this.
I know some of have.
We'll talk about that.
But as an individual officerlike me, you know, I'm thinking
it was much easier to go intomartial arts at age 12 than it
was at age 50, right, I mean?
So obviously I'm at adisadvantage, but I had to
(05:33):
overcome a couple of things andI bet it's it's the same
thinking that officers have.
Well, I've been here 28 yearsand I haven't, you know, had
this or this happen.
And how am I going to walk intothis gym with a bunch of,
basically, kids that know betterthan me how do I overcome it.
You've got to stop your ego atthe door.
You've got to just know thatyour safety and, like you said
(05:54):
in this book, less lawsuits,better community trust is more
important than your precious ego.
It changed the dynamics, don'tget me wrong.
I was beat up by many a12-year-old doing Jiu-Jitsu gym.
I changed the dynamics.
Now don't get me wrong.
I was beat up by many a 12 yearold in the Jiu-Jitsu gym.
I still am today, but I know Iknew more after one week than I
knew after 20 plus years in lawenforcement.
So if somebody's out there andthey're thinking to themselves,
(06:15):
you know what?
I don't think.
The old arm bar and wristcontrol in the basic academy
where everybody says, uncle,really quick and it just seems
to work and I, I check the boxand I'm certified in real life.
That probably doesn't help.
I need to quit just laying backand thinking this taser is
going to work, because if tasertells us it works 40 of the time
, that means 10 of the time.
We know that and uh, and whereyou're from, dr butler and co,
(06:37):
weather jackets and all theother stuff's going to prevent
that.
So we've sort of lied and fibbedto officers.
We've told them this technologyis their answer, but we haven't
seen shootings go down.
We haven't seen use of force godown.
If anything, we've seen themincrease in recent years.
There's a, there's alow-hanging fruit out there that
very few people want to talkabout, and that is martial arts,
which you're an expert at.
(06:58):
So what would you tell anofficer thinking about this?
How do they start?
Because there, because there'sa ton of different martial arts.
Right, I have a feeling whichone you're going to say.
How do they start when it comesto this?
Dr. Jeremy Butler (07:09):
Well, I think it starts with the power of
Google Find what's available inyour area.
But as far as myrecommendations, I am a huge
proponent for law enforcement,of a grappling based art, for me
, number one being BrazilianJiu-Jitsu.
But that does not mean judodoesn't count.
I think that would work well.
(07:30):
Wrestling even an officer whowrestled in high school has a
huge advantage in that regard.
And why do I say agrappling-based art?
Because I feel, anytime youhave to put hands on a subject,
you're essentially grapplingwith them.
If they resist you, so it isinevitable.
Because I feel anytime you haveto put hands on a subject,
you're essentially grapplingwith them if they resist you,
right?
So it is inevitable, right?
The act of struggling withanother person to seize hold of
(07:54):
or control that person isgrappling, so why not get good
in that particular area?
So, for me, grappling-basedarts are my main recommendation.
Now, if you could get into anarea where you could also
incorporate striking, that'sgood, because that's what's
likely to happen with thesubject.
(08:14):
But arts like BrazilianJiu-Jitsu when you're at the
right school.
That's the one thing Iappreciate about it is that you
can incorporate striking-basedtraining without actually
hurting each other, right?
You can simulate strikes and itgives you that awareness of
what's going on.
And one thing that I talk aboutin the book is, for example, if
you were to find a place totrain let's say, for example,
(08:38):
it's jujitsu even if you were ata sport-based school right
where they don't do any striking, that doesn't mean you can't
have that in your mind whenyou're training, right.
So one of the places that I'vetrained throughout my life is a
sport-based school and we didn'treally address striking.
But whenever I rode which islive grappling whenever I went
(09:01):
live, I was thinking right now,can he touch my face, can he
access my belt, things of thatnature.
When that's fresh in my mind,I'm able to get the same benefit
, if that makes sense.
Travis Yates (09:14):
No, I think part of the obstacle to many agencies
is we're kind of hung up onwhat things look like, right, I
mean, I could tell story afterstory of officers doing the
right thing at my agency orothers, but the administration
was more concerned of what itlooked like, got to get away
(09:38):
from that.
But that I have a theory.
It's not grounded anything.
But my crazy mind is we don'tsee a lot of emphasis on
brazilian jiu-jitsu or thesegrappling things, because from
afar that looks kind of bad.
Right, we're on top of somebody, we're controlling somebody,
but the alternative is, is we'rehitting them with a fist or
we're having to shoot them,we're having to tase them.
I've never understood why wedon't embrace this, because what
I found out and you would bethe expert here, dr Butler is
(10:00):
you can control somebody withjust.
I think you described fivethings in your book to learn
immediately.
But it doesn't take really anexpert to learn these
controlling mechanisms becausefortunately, most people we
fight with are not highlytrained martial arts people.
Those folks tend to be verydisciplined.
They're not going to be peoplewe're running across, running
into in the streets and I'd sayit couldn't have happened.
(10:21):
But most people have no senseof this whatsoever.
They're just fighting.
They're like this fighter ladythat I had to fight with, and
you can use some control tacticsthat is not that difficult to
learn to really, in my mind,decrease injury.
You may be still writing theuse of force report, but it's
going to decrease the injuriesthat's going to occur.
(10:44):
Do you find that to be true?
Dr. Jeremy Butler (10:45):
Yes, because there's no.
Again, when I talk aboutincorporated striking, the
officer isn't throwing thestrikes.
The officer is making sure thatthey're remaining safe by
controlling the distance betweenthemselves and the subject.
So, absolutely right, you'regoing to really be protecting
that person and yourself bygaining control of them and
maintaining that control untilthat person decides they're
(11:08):
ready to go in cuffs.
So if we learn this way to slowthings down to a certain extent
, I think it can certainly help.
Obviously, circumstances dictatetactics.
So my thing is I don't thinkanything is an end-all, be-all.
There are limitations to agrappling-based art in certain
instances, right, like there arecertain environments where you
(11:28):
don't want to, but that doesn'tmean that you shouldn't train it
.
I'd say, under mostcircumstances it's inevitable,
right?
Whether you want it to or not,the situation is going to end up
in this, in close entanglement,and more than likely you are
going to fall to the ground,right?
The other thing I want to sayin relation to that is, even if
you do come across a situationwhere this person is
(11:50):
significantly bigger, strongerthan you or even superior to you
physically, you can still beable to survive with these
skills.
So let's say you have, and Iteach at a police academy and I
tell this to my smaller officersand my female officers all the
time.
Right, they may feel, okay, Itry to, you know.
(12:11):
Let's say I do get this guydown and I try to put him in
side control.
If he's 100 pounds heavier thanme, he could just literally
throw me off.
And I'm like, yes, that ispossible.
The level of training you haveright now, someone superior in
size may be able to throw youoff.
The more training you get, themore consistent you are, the
(12:34):
less likely that is to happen.
But there is a certain pointwhere it's just we have to
respect nature.
But my thing is, are you anyworse off with those skills?
Even, let's say, this personthrew you off and jumped on top
of you.
I have so much faith in theperson with the years of
grappling training on bottom ofa guy twice their size.
Right, then I do a person whohas gone through our standard
(12:58):
law enforcement curriculum.
Why?
Because they spent hours andhours and hours of time in these
bad positions, in theseinferior positions, so they're
able to remain calm under thestress of having someone bigger,
heavier, stronger than you ontop of you.
So it's the attribute that wemust consider here too is the
attribute of getting used tobeing in that struggle and a
(13:20):
relatively safe environment.
Travis Yates (13:22):
So when it happens on the job, you're not panicked
, you're like I've been herebefore, I can control the
distance, I can control thedamage that the person can do to
me, and that was one of thefirst things that I was shown,
as my white belt self wasgetting beat up by 12 year olds,
is is they would put you inthese very uncomfortable,
uncomfortable positions and your, your, your, your default is to
(13:42):
panic, is to exert more energy,but you're going to flame out
very quickly, right, and?
And so be able to getcomfortable in that was a huge
help.
I laughed, I laughed.
I think I saw you post theother day about having goals of
being able to go five rounds ofthese.
Five rounds of training back toback.
(14:03):
To back should be ultimate goal, and I'll never forget the
first time.
It's OK, five minutes, some arefive minute, five minute round.
I thought, ok, how hard wouldthis be.
I watch this on TV.
Yeah, until you do five minutesfor the first time, you don't
realize how difficult that is,and I eventually got to where I
could do four or fiveback-to-back-to-back without
taking a break.
But people don't realize that,and this is a regressive skill.
(14:23):
I'm just concerned and why I'mglad you're on is is we give
this training in the academy.
It's not enough to reallyingrain muscle memory in, but
then we don't typically give itagain, right, and there's a
reason why people train inmartial arts two or three, four
times a week, sometimes more,because it's that regressive
(14:44):
skill and so, if you're,obviously the answer is for
individuals listening to this togo and pursue this to make sure
they're prepared.
But I think really this has gotto be on our police leaders.
You know we interviewed chiefJim Franklin from Rochester,
minnesota, and the reason weinterviewed him about a year ago
is because I'll put the episodelink down below the show notes
is because he not onlycoordinated with a local jujitsu
(15:07):
gym to train his entiredepartment, but he went himself
and they eventually ended up,you know, all belting together
and moving up and they trainedtogether like that every day.
So I thought that was soamazing.
It shouldn't be be amazing.
We should have chiefs andsheriffs training with their
personnel all the time.
But it was such a unique story.
I had him on.
It was one of our most listenedto episodes.
I think it's because it was sointeresting and so amazing that
(15:29):
it's happening.
But there's not a policedepartment in the country that
within earshot could not find atrainer or gym to partner with
them, probably at a discountedcost or almost for nothing.
I train for nothing at ourlocal gym, because there's
always gyms that want to trainlaw enforcement.
They recognize that.
So if you're a leader listeningto this and you recognize, not
(15:51):
only for yourself but for yourofficers, you need to provide
this.
How should they go aboutfinding that gym Like when they
look at gyms?
I mean you need to go a littledeeper than Google, because not
every gym's the same.
What type of questions shouldthey ask that gym owner before
they make that partnership?
Dr. Jeremy Butler (16:05):
Yeah, so so for sure, the the first step is
making sure it's practical interms of location, right.
So this is why I say start withGoogle, right, find what do you
have in your area and then fromthere it's a matter of
contacting that business andhaving that conversation.
Oftentimes you'll find that,you know, depending on the size
(16:29):
of the department, there'sofficers that do train in some
of these gyms.
So being able to first of allkind of see right, there's
anybody that's already in lawenforcement community that does
train I think is a big thingbecause they can bridge that
sort of gap.
But, yeah, sitting down andhaving that conversation with
that business owner and sayingwhat your needs are, what your
(16:51):
interests are and I don't knowmany martial arts schools that
don't have an interest inhelping the law enforcement
community, right.
So I do think it will be apretty seamless transition.
I can give you a coupleexamples of this.
I presented in Atlanta a coupleof years ago I think it was that
conference where I talked aboutthis, my experience with this
(17:14):
very thing.
So the place that I trained inmy area, it happens to be
literally around the corner fromthe police department and this
police department I gotconnected with the chief.
He liked me, so I started doingin-service trainings for them.
The limitation was that thespace that the agency is pretty
(17:35):
small.
They didn't really have muchspace for us to really get into
any training.
So I said straight up hey, Itrained at the jujitsu agency is
pretty small, they didn'treally have much space for us to
really get into any training so.
So I said straight up you know,hey, I trained at the jujitsu
school around the corner.
Maybe I can connect you guyswith them, and then we can see
if we can work something out.
Long story short, we got to apoint where we worked out where
the owners of the of the jujitsuschool don't use the facility
(17:55):
during the day, so theyessentially allowed me, they
gave me a key and allowed me totrain this police department
during the day on the jiu-jitsumats, right, and they were
getting accreditation for theirtraining.
So it's just being able to findthose connecting points and
using that networking to make itwork.
If you don't have any foundation, again, it starts with a phone
call agency, introducingyourself to the business owner
(18:18):
and maybe setting up a meeting.
Another thing I think toconsider here, though, is the
school that you, that you selectRight, because not every
martial art is necessarily goingto be applicable for law
enforcement Right.
So so you have to consider whatare your needs as an agency.
Ideally talk to officers whocurrently train.
(18:38):
Also, again, things like mybook, my research, there's
information out there to givethese agencies context right
from actual officers or formerofficers.
So gathering that information Ithink is big, and then just
taking it from there and if anyofficers, any agencies actually
(18:58):
interested in something likethat, I'm sure they can reach
out to yourself or myself and wecan kind of help guide them in
that direction if they're, ifthey're really serious about
that.
But yeah, I will.
Travis Yates (19:09):
I think that's one of the unfortunate things,
because as a leader, there is noexcuse Like these.
Gyms, by and large, are verypatriotic.
They're very pro lawenforcement, they understand the
issues we face.
They understand oftentimes ourtraining doesn't meet what the
demands are out there on thestreet.
I mean I haven't found any ofthem that will not work with you
now.
(19:29):
Uh, I mean, there's even somewebsites that I've seen where
these martial arts folks arejust there.
It's for free, like I would be.
I'd be shocked if it wasn and Iknow there's some online things
.
I'm a member of Gracie's OnlineAcademy.
I'll be honest, it doesn'treally work for me because I'm
(19:50):
just the only person here doingit.
So unless I buy one of thosesilly dummies on Amazon, I can't
really do much with watchingonline, but I guess that could
be an option as well.
Do you know of any onlineprograms?
Because I use the supplement.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (20:03):
I don't use it primarily to do it, but
there's just a lot ofinformation out there, but with
a lot of information there's alot of bad information.
So is any recommendations foronline to supplement it?
Yes, so now I'm not going tocall out any like specific
organization, but again I wouldsay, thinking about what is the
(20:25):
aim of a police officer, youwant to do minimum, you want
maximum control, minimum harmright In that situation, and
ideally you really we can goback and say this comes down to
even our deescalatory skills,right, being able to have the
confidence to speak up and talkthis person down, right.
But so for me, like I said,grappling based systems are
(20:47):
paramount.
Fortunately, there is a ton ofonline content nowadays related
to that.
If you look into like if youwere to Google, something like
police and grappling, police andjujitsu, you're more likely to
find results that are going toconnect the law enforcement
(21:07):
industry with thegrappling-based training, right.
So I mean, I'd say it's reallymore down to you, know, you
sitting down and doing your ownresearch.
I don't like to call outspecific organizations.
I'm not affiliated with aspecific organization that
actually does a law enforcementdirect, but there are some out
there.
(21:27):
I think when we get too wrappedup in like specific companies.
I think we lose the contexthere.
I think it's more about theattribute, developing this
attribute.
So if you were to find anygrappling base system or you
were to find an online platformthat works for you as far as the
limitation that you'representing with being by
yourself, if you're in an agency, all you need is one other
(21:50):
officer, right, who might alsoshare a similar interest, and
you guys can get together andreally work that out and drill
on your own time, right?
So that's something to consider.
But I don't think there's muchof a legitimate supplementing
person.
Face-to-face training, right,like if you have no other choice
, you're in a really small areaand there's nothing around, okay
(22:12):
, go online.
But I definitely think youreally need to be in an
environment where you're withanother person and you guys are
engaged.
Travis Yates (22:20):
And I tend to agree.
I really I go back to this isreally a leader's responsibility
.
You're going to have to answerfor injuries or excessive use of
force, so we've got to give allthe tools and training and
resources to our personnel if weexpect them to perform
adequately.
It's just not good enoughanymore to give them the state
minimum in a basic academy thenexpect them to always perform
(22:42):
exceptionally, because wesometimes put standards on these
men and women that are justnormal people, that are really
just not realistic, and sothere's not never been a better
opportunity now than to do this.
I just I find it crazy thatit's not being done more.
Once again.
I had one chief on that I founddoing it, but if, if somebody's
(23:03):
out there, they can reach outto me, they can reach out to you
, enable this for your personnel.
Maybe you don't make itmandatory.
I personally would, becausepeople are worried about
injuries, but just like CrossFitfound it actually created less
injuries with that platform,what type of research do you see
out there as far as traininginjuries or actually injuries to
suspects, because I have toimagine there's been some
studies that say this is betterto do than sort of the things
(23:25):
we're used to doing.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (23:27):
Yeah, a lot of the peer review research
still in the early stages but,yes, from the data I've seen, uh
and everybody knows about theuh sort of the, the landmark you
know, study with the uh man.
I'm drawing a blank on uhMarietta, is it Marietta?
Georgia?
Travis Yates (23:44):
I think so yeah.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (23:56):
Yeah, yeah.
So their department did the big, the big study having their
officers trained to just do, andthey found reduced reductions
and injuries to officers andinjuries to civilians, right.
So we see some of that.
The peer review content is.
It's not as prominent right nowfor law enforcement, but that's
something that I think isbuilding more and more.
But if I was to say, if I wasto give advice to an agency in
terms of what they're lookingfor, I think the big picture one
is an ego-free environment,right.
(24:18):
So you want to be in anenvironment where it doesn't
seem like and that doesn't meanthat the school owner has ill
intent.
Sometimes there are justtraining rooms where the
participants are just you know,but they are testing the
training under resistance, right.
(24:53):
So if we only work undercompliance, we don't get that
live energy, right?
So, whatever facility agencymight consider partnering with,
there needs to be a component ofof live training for that that
area.
There needs to be a componentof live training for that area.
Many businesses are even oftenwilling to hold law enforcement
specific programming.
That's something that you candiscuss.
They may not offer it at thatmoment, but if you sit down and
(25:20):
have a conversation and say, heylook, I can provide X amount of
officers.
If you could provide this timeframe for you to train these
officers, I mean it's a win winsituation, situation right For
both sides.
And then you can go into policemore specific tactics.
Another company that comes tomind now that I want to sort of
plug is Adopt-A-Cop.
I'm not sure if you've heard ofthat Adopt-A-Cop.
BJJ so that's a nonprofitorganization where they'll fund
(25:44):
officers to get training injujitsu up to blue belt.
So that's another goodorganization that I think the
agencies can take advantage ofor at least make their officers
aware of that training that theycan engage in.
But I agree with you, it shouldbe an initiative on the side of
the police leadership to say,hey, we need to at least
(26:06):
consider what opportunities wehave in this area.
But the whole purpose behind mewriting this book was the fact
that unfortunately, we are notthere yet I don't think we're
there yet where we have all ofthis leadership that's valuing
this training.
So due to that, this book waslike a message to early career
(26:28):
officers and it's like look,you're entering into a career,
you need to value this training.
You need to do this trainingfrom hire to retire.
If you are swearing to serveand protect, that is a
responsibility, right.
So for me it's like okay, ifyour agency is not in a position
to support your consistenttraining, here's some things to
(26:49):
look at, right.
So I cover here some things tolook for in a martial arts
school.
Here's some arts to consider,as you pointed out.
What are some tactics?
I just published a study, thismonth actually, and it was some
of the content is in the bookabout the top techniques that
officers recommended.
So I essentially surveyed over300 police officers who train
(27:11):
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and I wantedtheir perceptions of the
training and I asked them ifthere were five techniques that
you would recommend, what wouldit be?
And control related positionswere they went to the forefront
right so knee and belly sidecontrol, gaining control of the
subject, which, by the way, iswhat's going to minimize harm.
(27:34):
I don't have to strike him if Ican keep him under control,
right?
So just things to consider.
Travis Yates (27:40):
Now, if you're just now joining us, we're
talking to Dr Jeremy Butler.
He's the author of thefantastic book.
You have to Go Get Called, stopResisting, and I think it's.
You know I got to give youcredit, dr Butler.
You know, obviously there's 30million books on Amazon.
Everybody is writing a bookthese days, but very few books,
I think, will make a lastingimpact on this profession.
I think this book does it.
(28:01):
It's a read for the novice.
You don't have to be somemaster, expert or martial arts
guru.
You could just be somebodyinterested or knowing you've got
to get better and it's going tohelp you out.
So I think you've done atremendous service here.
I can't thank you enough.
So if people are listening tous, I'm gonna give you the last
word and they're thinking youknow what I got to.
I got to I want to be better.
Today we're coming up onJanuary 1st.
(28:22):
This episode is dropping thefirst week of January.
So people, that's in thepeople's minds I want to be
better, both mentally.
I want to be better, betterphysically.
I want to be better prepared atwork.
Just give them quick advice onwhat they need to do to put that
into action.
Dr. Jeremy Butler (28:39):
I think it comes down to just that acting.
One big thing for me is goalsetting right, so establish what
you want, what is it that youwant, and write it down.
And there's actual researchthat shows when you write down
your goals, you are more likelyto pursue and accomplish them.
Right, so decide what it isthat you want and be specific
(29:03):
about it.
Again this is another area thatI address in the book is how do
you set goals?
Right, so you want them to bespecific, measurable, attainable
, relevant, time-bound right?
You've heard of SMART goals?
Right, so thinking about thebig picture also, and then
narrowing it down right.
So what is the long-term goal?
Where do you see it in thefuture?
(29:24):
And then, what are theshort-term steps?
That gets me to where I want tobe.
So, if you want to get to thatpoint where you are actively
training let's say two days aweek in your control tactics
okay, what are the steps to getyou to that point?
And then start with step oneand work at it.
So write it down and getstarted will be my biggest
(29:45):
advice.
Yeah, and write it down and getstarted is will be my my
biggest uh advice.
Travis Yates (29:48):
Yeah, and I guess I would add to that Somebody
will hold you accountable tothat, right, Uh, and of course
writing down this part of that,but you'll find somebody to hold
you accountable to that,whether that's your spouse or
whether it's somebody at work orwhoever.
It is so great stuff, Dr Butler.
How do they reach out to youfor more information?
Dr. Jeremy Butler (30:04):
reach out to you.
For more information, you cango to wwwjeremybutlerphdcom.
Wwwjeremybutlerphdcom.
You can find a link to my bookon there.
It's also if you were to justsearch Stop Resisting book or
Jeremy Butler, stop Resisting onAmazon, it'll come right up.
Travis Yates (30:22):
Dr Jeremy Butler, I can't thank you enough for
being here.
I think this is incredibleinformation.
We need to get this to themasses.
Thank you so much for doingthat, and if you've been
watching and you've beenlistening.
Thank you for doing that.
We'll see you next week.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Thank you for listening to Courageous
Leadership with Travis Yates.
We invite you to join othercourageous leaders at www.
travisyates.
org.
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