February 26, 2025 • 27 mins
Eugene Roy shares a wealth of experience and insights on the transformation of leadership in law enforcement. He delves into how generational shifts have affected policing and the importance of mental health for officers.
• Discussion of the evolution of policing from the 1990s to today
• Insights into the challenges faced by modern police leaders
• The importance of mental health support for officers
• Communication barriers and the impact on public perception
• The potential for a return to mission-driven policing
• Reflections on the necessary qualities of courageous leadership
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates,
where leaders find the insights,advice and encouragement they
need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates (00:12):
Welcome back to the show.
I'm so honored to have you withus today and I am excited about
today's guest.
Today's guest is Eugene Roy.
He's a retired chief ofdetectives for the Chicago
Police Department, where he ledover 1,200 detectives With over
35 years of law enforcementexperience that ranges from
writing citations to solvingmurders, to even leading police
(00:33):
operations for professionalsports.
He's positioned himself to be aleading expert and consultant
for agencies and variousindustries across the world.
We're really excited to havehim, eugene.
How are you doing, sir?
Eugene Roy (00:46):
I'm doing well.
Thanks for the invitation to behere with you and your audience
.
I really appreciate it.
Travis Yates (00:51):
Well, no, it's quite an honor because obviously
we had a few discussions beforethis about the state of
leadership in law enforcementtoday, the state of leadership
really across industries today,and you have a tremendous amount
of experience and I just kindof wanted to pick your brain a
little bit of where was the seatchange at?
Like, I think I go back to 93,to 2023.
(01:12):
And so I saw a tremendous shiftof how leadership acted, how
leadership operated, howleadership practiced, and I
would assume you have a similarstory.
Just kind of talk to ouraudience about the shift that
you saw and why you think thathappened.
Eugene Roy (01:28):
One of the benchmarks I use on that is I
use how the police servicesprogress down through the years.
And you know, if we look backto the years, what we had we had
(02:00):
a police department that wasmainly males, an extremely high
percentage of veterans who cameout of the military, the
military out of the 50s and the60s, people who had served in
conflict.
I came on the job in 1986 as asworn member of the Chicago
Police Department.
I had a sergeant who had servedin Korea.
You know, 36 years ago I had apartner who was a highly
decorated Marine veteran ofVietnam and I think that the
(02:23):
police agencies you and I livedin back in those days it had
gotten to the point where thepeople who are supervisors and
leaders were military veteransand they grew up in a different
school of leadership.
(02:44):
And they grew up in a differentschool of leadership and
leadership was mission, mission,mission, regulation, regulation
, regulation as our societyprogressed and as time
progressed.
You know, those veterans, thosepeople in position of leadership
and supervision two differentconcepts here.
(03:04):
They aged out for lack of abetter term.
Their time was up, they hitthat mandatory retirement age
and they were gone, and so weretheir very rigid and very rigid
approaches to life, very to life, and to doing policing.
(03:27):
Everything was, you know, foursquare corners and you know
things like that.
Everything just said had to beperfect.
We focused more on appearance.
We've, then, taking care of ourpeople.
We've been taking care of ourpeople.
So I would agree with yourtimeline right around the 80s,
(03:49):
late 80s, early 90s, and at thesame time there was under the
Clinton administration, therewas the COPS program.
They were just literallythrowing money at the major
cities to hire police officersbecause again, what we saw is
that post-Korean War,post-vietnam War cohort of
(04:13):
people who came on policedepartments after their military
service was completed, theywere aging out, it was their
time to retire.
So we had a whole newgeneration of people I don't
know if you call them thegeneration Xers, not quite the
boomers I'm a boomer.
I think it was generation X andthey had different philosophy,
different outlook on things andyou couldn't treat them like a
(04:35):
recruit in basic training.
And that's when I saw that seachange in leadership.
Travis Yates (04:42):
Yeah, I really see a lot of similarities there and
I think you hit on a point thatwe don't often talk about.
Maybe it's not politicallycorrect to talk about it, but I
think it's very appropriate.
I grew up.
My father was a Vietnam vet.
He went to law enforcement in1972.
I started law enforcement in1993, and my sergeant was a
Vietnam vet and of course I canremember thinking you got to be
(05:03):
kidding me.
I grew up with this guy and Igot to work for a guy very
similar, but we didn't know whatwe had when we had it.
Sir, you're right when you saymission oriented.
That was what it was about.
They didn't let third partyentities get in the way of that
mission.
They didn't let the chief ofpolice get in the way of that
mission.
(05:23):
It was mission all the time.
And I think that's a big reasonwe saw the dip in crime that we
saw in the 90s, because thatwas very much what law
enforcement was doing.
It was mission oriented, whichis I tell people this all the
time our mission's in our namelaw enforcement.
It's not a complicated businesswe're in, but we've made it very
complicated.
But and I agree with you thepeople we recruit have changed?
(05:46):
There certainly seem to have.
Should have been some sort oftransition, because I'm a
product of that former militarysergeant, I'm a product of the
people I was around and and Ivery much am not in mainstream
management today.
So I think we certainly erredby not transitioning rightly,
because we've seen what hasoccurred right.
(06:07):
I don't think we have toreiterate that.
You're in chicago, we don'thave to go over all the crazy
stuff that's going on today.
Do you see a time and a placein the future where we sort of
get back to that mission?
Eugene Roy (06:18):
you know, it's a basic law of nature the pendulum
swings both ways.
I think that things are goingto get to a certain point where
society just can't tolerate themanymore and somebody is going
to wake up and say, oh, this isthe way they did it back in the
90s, and you know the turn ofthe century, you know the
millennium, and things have toswing back the other way.
We can't continue the way wehave been continuing.
(06:41):
You know we're making greatstrides in the way we treat our
officers and their families,especially in the aftermath of
realize.
That causes problems thataffect morale, retention, ptsd.
So we're making strides there,but we still have to do better.
(07:15):
We're policing smarter with theuse of technology.
We still have, like I said,still have great strides to go
with the way we treat our people.
You know, going back to thatmilitary mission, first
mentality, those old bosses yourwife could be nine months
pregnant and ready to have ababy at any time.
(07:38):
You had to come to work.
Right, there was no hey, allright, forget about it, stay
home.
Well, yeah, I mean, I remembera time, not so long ago you were
shamed.
Travis Yates (07:48):
If you took a sick day, you were shamed by your
boss.
Eugene Roy (07:52):
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
We've gotten past that.
We're still not where we needto be, and there's a lot of
other external factors to thepolitical environment,
especially.
Travis Yates (08:03):
Well, and it's very interesting you say that
because, yes, a new generationcame in, but there's some
benefits with that, right.
I think we would all agree.
Diversity, including females inlaw enforcement, offers a lot
of value that we didn't used tohave back in the day.
We're much more healthconscious to where, when I
started, there were cigaretteash trays in the squad rooms
(08:23):
right, and we brought the mentalhealth and the professions
along with that.
So there's been a lot of greatstrides.
You mentioned technology.
I think there's a danger there.
We get over stimulatedtechnology.
We use it too much to get awayfrom the common sense of the
mission approach.
But there is a balance thereand there's certainly where I
see the new generation is isthey want leadership.
(08:43):
I don't think that has changed.
They want leadership, butthey're not seeing leadership.
They may be seeing management,they may be seeing
micromanagement, they may beseeing, but they're not seeing
strong, courageous leadership.
And I think that's why you'reseeing so many agencies that are
really failing when it comes toretention and recruiting,
because there's still a hugeamount of people that want to
work for whatever profession itis.
(09:03):
They want to work in leadershipcircles.
But we've got so many exampleswe could go through where we've
seen leaders fail thisprofession and you know, I know
you, sir, I mean you were.
I wanted to talk to you brieflyabout communications because I
think we have failed mightilywith communications.
There's still people today thatthink hands up don't shoot they
(09:25):
still.
They still think hands up don'tshoot happened.
They still think Breonna Taylorwas sleeping peacefully in her
bed.
I could go into the examples ofChicago, where they still think
this poor, innocent kid didn'thave a gun.
I mean, our communication hasreally faltered and created
narratives that our leaders havenot been able to answer for.
But the leaders have the truth.
I've never understood why wecan't defend the profession when
(09:45):
we have the truth and the factson our side.
And you come from a backgroundin media relations and
communication.
Do you have anything to sayabout that?
Eugene Roy (09:53):
You know you have to you.
Somebody told me a long timeago, you know, get out in front
of the story.
You own the story.
Tell the truth, get, get thestory out there, don't let the
story own you.
And unfortunately, a lot of ourleaders don't have that,
haven't been exposed to thatsort of savvy, and because how
(10:16):
to communicate effectively withthe media is not something that
we were brought up to do as werose through the ranks in the
police service, because themedia was seen as the enemy,
everything we did was a secret.
We've gone past that, but westill haven't gotten to the
point where we value thosepeople who are not afraid to
(10:41):
stand in front of a camera andtell the public, tell the
municipal, the governmentleadership what happened, how it
happened, why it happened,obviously knowing what to say,
how to say it and, moreimportantly, what not to say at
the early stages of aninvestigation.
We don't quite have that yet.
Travis Yates (11:04):
Yeah, and I think also we have the benefit that we
could be our own media, rightWith technology there and you
name it, with what we're doingright now, I mean, everybody can
be their own media and we letother people dictate the
narrative and it just spiralsout of control.
We've, of course, seen thatsince 2016 and on, and I think
one thing that has occurred is Ithink the trust in the media is
(11:26):
really at an all-time high, andso think one thing that has
occurred is I think the trust inthe media is really an all-time
high, and so there's anopportunity for leaders to be
the mouthpiece People trust youlook at the Gallup polling
people trust law enforcement ata much higher level than the
media, but I don't personallythink we're taking advantage of
that.
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
Eugene Roy (11:43):
Absolutely.
You know, you're absolutelyright.
I had the good fortune ofworking with a gentleman who's
now the director of AnthonyGuglielmi, director of media
affairs for the US SecretService.
He sought out people inleadership that, he said, you
(12:04):
know, he saw where there was acomfort level with speaking
publicly and he would train uson how to do things.
And one of the things that I'llalways remember is one day he
calls me and says we need you tobe at a press conference on
some sort of major crimeincident where an arrest was
(12:26):
made or something like that, andnormally the dress code for
members of the command staffappearing at media events like
that was the full dress uniform.
He said okay, give me about.
I need about 10 minutes.
Got to switch into my uniform?
No, no, no, no, no.
I want you in your suit and tie.
My uniform no, no, no, no, no.
(12:48):
I want you in your suit and tie.
I said you want me in my suitand tie, but the dress code?
He said let me explainsomething to you People.
You're the chief of detectives.
People think of detectives.
They think of somebody dressedin a suit, whether it's a man or
a woman dressed in a businesssuit with the tie, who speaks
from the heart.
That's what they're looking for.
They're not looking forsomebody in a uniform who's
(13:11):
reading a script and lessonslearned and it's worked well
down through the years.
We need that sort of wisdom.
We need those sort of leadersto step up, because when they
step up excuse me they're notjust telling the department
(13:32):
story, they're not just recitingfacts about an incident.
They are serving as the voiceof the people.
They lead these police officers.
They need to be recognized bytheir own leadership and they
need somebody who they know andwho they trust and who has the
(13:54):
credibility with the media andits stature where they can
address those issues and theycan tell the policeman's story.
Travis Yates (14:03):
Yeah, and you mentioned chief of detectives.
You had 1,200 detectives.
You had 1200 detectives, uh,you know, uh, at your disposal
and I, I, I don't think that wasprobably your goal.
I don't think anybody thatbelieves in leadership, that was
their goal to do that when theystarted in that career and so.
But you found yourself thereand I have to.
Just, I'd like to educate ouraudience a little bit because,
uh, that's a tremendousresponsibility.
(14:24):
You can't control 1,200 people.
You can't supervise 1,200people.
How did you deal with yourmiddle management when you were
in that role to make sure thatthey were carrying that mission,
focus forward.
Eugene Roy (14:36):
You have to communicate with people, and
it's not formal staff meetings,it's by being out there, showing
up at crime scenes, seeing howyour mid-level supervisors, your
sergeants, your lieutenants,how are they interacting with
the troops at a time of greatstress and uncertainty, what are
(14:56):
they doing right, what are theydoing wrong and what do we need
to build on?
And just being out there, beingwith these people three o'clock
on a Sunday morning or when it'scold or whatever, that's what
sets an example and that's howyou connect with people.
And when they see you showingup and taking an interest in
(15:19):
their case or maybe it's notshowing up at a crime scene but
reading a report and you can seewhere a sergeant, the
lieutenant, did a great job, puttogether a team to solve a
robbery pattern or somethingalong those lines and you call
them and say, hey, great report,great job, thank you.
They get that and they alsolearn.
(15:41):
The besides thanking them,you're giving them an implicit
message learn besides thankingthem, you're giving them an
implicit message.
You're teaching them.
Reward your subordinates,Acknowledge your subordinates
when they deserve praise.
Praise them publicly and loudly.
Travis Yates (15:55):
Yeah, and consequently, when we need to
critique, you do that privately,and you mentioned something
that I think is a lost art.
It seems crazy to say this, butI'm seeing this pesky email
taking over for that in-personcommunication.
There's nothing that replacesthe fact of our leaders that get
out of the office, see peopleface to face, whatever position
you're in.
If you're a sergeant, jump in acar with a patrolman.
(16:16):
If you're the chief ofdetectives, get out to crime
scenes and hang out with them,because you're not going to hear
anything other than that.
We always talk about this,eugene, about oh, we have an
open door policy, well, no one'scoming to your door.
You've got to build trust bygoing to them and trusting them
and letting them see you on aday-to-day basis.
And then, because you're goingto go to their door and so
that's really sort of a checkbox, everybody says, oh well, I
(16:37):
have an open door policy, well,it doesn't matter, you need to
go to their door, break opentheir door, make available.
Now, that takes work.
It's much easier to sit behinda keyboard right and send out
emails, but there is literallynothing that takes the place of
being there.
So that's really really solidadvice.
You were in Chicago obviouslyhyperpolitical.
(16:57):
Now Did you see it shift at acertain time in your career to
where you were mission focusedand then politics took over and
then everything else became moreimportant than the mission?
Because I think everybodyunderstands the issues in
Chicago today, but it wasn'talways the case, was it?
Eugene Roy (17:11):
No, it wasn't always the case, but as the mood in
the country shifted, became moresensitive.
Also, you know just the fact ofwhere you are in the police
organization affects how you areinvolved in politics, and
there's capital P politics andthere's small p politics.
(17:32):
And as you climb the ranks it'smore about.
You know you've mastered yourbasic skills.
You know how to conduct aninterview.
You know what the proceduresare for an officer-involved
shooting.
It's how you communicate.
It's how you read the room.
One of my favorite phrases readthe room you go in.
(17:55):
You think you've got a greatidea.
You see everybody's in a badmood and the chief is really
ticked.
Maybe it's not the best day topitch this proposal.
Maybe it's one of those days wejust keep quiet and sit in the
corner and let the steam blowover and come back another day.
You have to do that.
Travis Yates (18:15):
Oh man, I have story after story of what you
just said, like getting a chiefto do something you never
thought you would do.
But if you catch him at theright moment at the right time,
he'll do just about anything.
You want Pretty brilliant stuffthere.
Eugene Roy (18:28):
And it's not going to get done with an email, it's
got to be done in person.
That person that you're makinga proposal, to, that you're
pitching to, they have to seeyour energy, they have to feel
your enthusiasm.
If you don't have that energy,that enthusiasm, your project is
probably not going to goanywhere.
Travis Yates (18:47):
So you mentioned earlier the pendulum swinging
back.
Are you sensing this,especially in our major cities,
to where we're kind of gettingback to that mission?
I have days where I have faith.
I have days where I getdepressed when I see it, but it
really starts with leadership,right, and it starts with
leadership that is not scared tomake the hard decisions, is not
(19:08):
scared to do the right thing.
And the reason we see such alack of it and I call it
courageous leadership is becauseyou can hurt yourself by doing
the right thing.
I know it sounds crazy, butoutside law enforcement, by
doing the right thing you candestroy your career.
So we see so many people thatjust don't do the right thing.
But I'm seeing sort of a hingetowards that.
Are you seeing the same thing?
Eugene Roy (19:29):
Well, first of all, policing doesn't exist in a
vacuum.
Policing is in the overallenvironment and obviously
politics plays a key role in it.
Here in Chicago, one of the bigproblems we've had is that we
had a progressive prosecutor whodidn't like to prosecute and
(19:51):
we've also had some ill-advisedlaws.
We don't hold people on bondanymore, you know, unless it's
something truly horrific thatcontributed to it.
The city, the past two mayors,have been intent on downgrading
the police department.
(20:12):
The police department is downanywhere from 1,500 to 2,000
officers net over the past fiveyears, depending on whose
statistics you believe and relyon.
So you have to take that intoaccount and you work from there.
And fortunately, some good newsyou know the progressive
(20:35):
state's attorney got voted outof office.
You know the progressivestate's attorney got voted out
of office.
We have a former prosecutor whobecame a judge after leaving
the prosecutor's office.
She got elected in aprosecutor's office properly,
(21:02):
firmly, but fairly, and enforcethe law and restore respect for
the criminal justice system.
So we're seeing that.
But again, we're still down1,500 officers on the police
department net loss.
We have a relatively newsuperintendent who is a product
of.
He came up the hard way, hecame up through the ranks and he
replaced a gentleman who livedin another city, came from
(21:27):
another city and commuted hometo his home city every weekend
and wasn't there for the bigevents.
So there's a change in theleadership climate there.
We still have a lot of problemsbecause of the ill-advised laws
passed by the state legislature.
We have a serious problem withthe way police-involved
(21:51):
shootings are handled in Chicagoby a civilian agency that is
operating in violation ofIllinois state law.
But the political powers thatbe at city hall want it to be
that way because they maintainpolitical control for their
political ambitions.
So it's good.
I'm like you.
There's good days and there'sbad days, and most days are a
(22:14):
mixture of both.
Travis Yates (22:16):
Yeah, and really the answer is just leadership,
right, just leadership.
And the reason I think we sawthe success from the military is
in the military day one.
Every military person I've evertalked to when was the first
time leadership was mentioned?
And they all say day one, bootcamp, day one boot camp.
Well, in law enforcement, maybe,if you pass a test for four or
five years and you make thatfirst rank, they send you to.
(22:37):
They don't even, fortunately,they don't even call it
leadership, they call itmanagement school or supervisor
school, right, and so maybe,just maybe, you get a hint of it
.
Then, after you're several yearsinto your career and the next
thing you know you've achievedthe detectives and you think to
yourself man, they have notmentored or trained me at all in
these areas.
Now we do live.
We live in a day and age wherethis information is accessible,
but the great leaders that I'vemet along my journeys have
(23:00):
almost self-taught, and that'swhy I think it's so important,
eugene, that you come on and youtalk about this.
In fact, I'll just I'll behonest with you, my father I
won't ask your age, but myfather retired in law
enforcement in the late 90s andI tried to get him to come on,
because of the wisdom of peoplethat left this profession, that
have led at high levels, ledduring high priority events.
(23:22):
I think we're losing that, andso you are still very, very
active, you're still veryinvolved and I would only assume
it's because of your passionfor this profession, your
passion for leadership.
Eugene Roy (23:32):
I love being the police and it's one thing.
Once you're the police, ifyou're truly the police,
retirement doesn't make a bit ofdifference.
It just means you're notgetting paid but you still think
like a cop, you act like a cop,you talk like a cop and you
bleed.
Your heart bleeds like a cop.
So I agree with you there.
(23:56):
One of the role models for mewas a gentleman who just passed
away by the name of Jim Maurer,who was our chief of patrol.
He was a larger-than-lifecharacter.
He was fond of showing up atmajor events in a full-length
dress, coat and carrying alittle dog, like Winston
(24:18):
Churchill, and puffing on acigar and just being out there
with the troops.
A little bit of a showman, butit caught everybody's eye.
Everybody knew him.
He either loved him or he hatedhim, but you knew who he was
and you knew he was out there.
One of the things he said earlyon that I heard early on in my
(24:38):
career is as a supervisor, as aleader, you are responsible for
the physical, legal andemotional safety of the people
who work for you and neverforget, as a sergeant, the last
person that patrol officer seesbefore they walk out the door to
(25:00):
hit the street is you.
They don't see the districtcommander.
They don't see thesuperintendent.
They don't see the mayor.
They don't see the president.
It's you, it's on you.
You owe that to them.
Travis Yates (25:15):
Yeah, man, it's solid.
You mentioned something that isso important.
You know, this is a professionof identity.
You know, I think people thathave been in this profession,
that do this profession, thatlove this profession it's not a
typical career.
You very much have an identitywith it, which is why you're so
active.
It's why I'm so active longafter the job.
That's very unique.
With that identity can comenegative things.
(25:36):
For instance, we love this job,but here is sort of a trick
that people don't realize.
The job is not required to loveyou back.
It's very much a dysfunctionalrelationship, right, and so
almost everybody that loves thisjob so much will eventually
feel the sting of thatdysfunctional relationship and
(25:57):
and and you, just like me, havebeen through that sting a few
times what piece of advice wouldyou give people listening to
this?
It's still on the job, theyidentify with this job, they
love this job.
Is there any advice, as we sortof you know, as a final
question here, that you wouldgive those men and women?
Eugene Roy (26:13):
Don't forget who you are.
Don't forget who you owe yourloyalty and allegiance to.
Don't become a politician.
Remember those brave men andwomen go out that door every day
to confront evil, because youasked them to.
Travis Yates (26:33):
Powerful stuff.
Eugene Roy, I can't thank youenough for being here.
I think we could just talk allday, but thanks for giving us
your time and thanks for doingwhat you did and thanks for your
service to the city of Chicagoand to the world today and what
you do now.
So thank you so much.
Eugene Roy (26:48):
Well, thank you.
It's an honor to be here withyou.
Keep up the good work.
Travis Yates (26:51):
Thank you.
Thank you, sir, and if you'vebeen watching, listening, thank
you for doing that.
And just remember, lead on andstay courageous.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Thank you for listening to Courageous
Leadership with Travis Yates.
We invite you to join othercourageous leaders at www.
travisyates.
org.
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates,
where leaders find the insights,advice and encouragement they
need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates (00:12):
Welcome back to the show.
I'm so honored to have you withus today and I am excited about
today's guest.
Today's guest is Eugene Roy.
He's a retired chief ofdetectives for the Chicago
Police Department, where he ledover 1,200 detectives With over
35 years of law enforcementexperience that ranges from
writing citations to solvingmurders, to even leading police
(00:33):
operations for professionalsports.
He's positioned himself to be aleading expert and consultant
for agencies and variousindustries across the world.
We're really excited to havehim, eugene.
How are you doing, sir?
Eugene Roy (00:46):
I'm doing well.
Thanks for the invitation to behere with you and your audience
.
I really appreciate it.
Travis Yates (00:51):
Well, no, it's quite an honor because obviously
we had a few discussions beforethis about the state of
leadership in law enforcementtoday, the state of leadership
really across industries today,and you have a tremendous amount
of experience and I just kindof wanted to pick your brain a
little bit of where was the seatchange at?
Like, I think I go back to 93,to 2023.
(01:12):
And so I saw a tremendous shiftof how leadership acted, how
leadership operated, howleadership practiced, and I
would assume you have a similarstory.
Just kind of talk to ouraudience about the shift that
you saw and why you think thathappened.
Eugene Roy (01:28):
One of the benchmarks I use on that is I
use how the police servicesprogress down through the years.
And you know, if we look backto the years, what we had we had
(02:00):
a police department that wasmainly males, an extremely high
percentage of veterans who cameout of the military, the
military out of the 50s and the60s, people who had served in
conflict.
I came on the job in 1986 as asworn member of the Chicago
Police Department.
I had a sergeant who had servedin Korea.
You know, 36 years ago I had apartner who was a highly
decorated Marine veteran ofVietnam and I think that the
(02:23):
police agencies you and I livedin back in those days it had
gotten to the point where thepeople who are supervisors and
leaders were military veteransand they grew up in a different
school of leadership.
(02:44):
And they grew up in a differentschool of leadership and
leadership was mission, mission,mission, regulation, regulation
, regulation as our societyprogressed and as time
progressed.
You know, those veterans, thosepeople in position of leadership
and supervision two differentconcepts here.
(03:04):
They aged out for lack of abetter term.
Their time was up, they hitthat mandatory retirement age
and they were gone, and so weretheir very rigid and very rigid
approaches to life, very to life, and to doing policing.
(03:27):
Everything was, you know, foursquare corners and you know
things like that.
Everything just said had to beperfect.
We focused more on appearance.
We've, then, taking care of ourpeople.
We've been taking care of ourpeople.
So I would agree with yourtimeline right around the 80s,
(03:49):
late 80s, early 90s, and at thesame time there was under the
Clinton administration, therewas the COPS program.
They were just literallythrowing money at the major
cities to hire police officersbecause again, what we saw is
that post-Korean War,post-vietnam War cohort of
(04:13):
people who came on policedepartments after their military
service was completed, theywere aging out, it was their
time to retire.
So we had a whole newgeneration of people I don't
know if you call them thegeneration Xers, not quite the
boomers I'm a boomer.
I think it was generation X andthey had different philosophy,
different outlook on things andyou couldn't treat them like a
(04:35):
recruit in basic training.
And that's when I saw that seachange in leadership.
Travis Yates (04:42):
Yeah, I really see a lot of similarities there and
I think you hit on a point thatwe don't often talk about.
Maybe it's not politicallycorrect to talk about it, but I
think it's very appropriate.
I grew up.
My father was a Vietnam vet.
He went to law enforcement in1972.
I started law enforcement in1993, and my sergeant was a
Vietnam vet and of course I canremember thinking you got to be
(05:03):
kidding me.
I grew up with this guy and Igot to work for a guy very
similar, but we didn't know whatwe had when we had it.
Sir, you're right when you saymission oriented.
That was what it was about.
They didn't let third partyentities get in the way of that
mission.
They didn't let the chief ofpolice get in the way of that
mission.
(05:23):
It was mission all the time.
And I think that's a big reasonwe saw the dip in crime that we
saw in the 90s, because thatwas very much what law
enforcement was doing.
It was mission oriented, whichis I tell people this all the
time our mission's in our namelaw enforcement.
It's not a complicated businesswe're in, but we've made it very
complicated.
But and I agree with you thepeople we recruit have changed?
(05:46):
There certainly seem to have.
Should have been some sort oftransition, because I'm a
product of that former militarysergeant, I'm a product of the
people I was around and and Ivery much am not in mainstream
management today.
So I think we certainly erredby not transitioning rightly,
because we've seen what hasoccurred right.
(06:07):
I don't think we have toreiterate that.
You're in chicago, we don'thave to go over all the crazy
stuff that's going on today.
Do you see a time and a placein the future where we sort of
get back to that mission?
Eugene Roy (06:18):
you know, it's a basic law of nature the pendulum
swings both ways.
I think that things are goingto get to a certain point where
society just can't tolerate themanymore and somebody is going
to wake up and say, oh, this isthe way they did it back in the
90s, and you know the turn ofthe century, you know the
millennium, and things have toswing back the other way.
We can't continue the way wehave been continuing.
(06:41):
You know we're making greatstrides in the way we treat our
officers and their families,especially in the aftermath of
realize.
That causes problems thataffect morale, retention, ptsd.
So we're making strides there,but we still have to do better.
(07:15):
We're policing smarter with theuse of technology.
We still have, like I said,still have great strides to go
with the way we treat our people.
You know, going back to thatmilitary mission, first
mentality, those old bosses yourwife could be nine months
pregnant and ready to have ababy at any time.
(07:38):
You had to come to work.
Right, there was no hey, allright, forget about it, stay
home.
Well, yeah, I mean, I remembera time, not so long ago you were
shamed.
Travis Yates (07:48):
If you took a sick day, you were shamed by your
boss.
Eugene Roy (07:52):
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
We've gotten past that.
We're still not where we needto be, and there's a lot of
other external factors to thepolitical environment,
especially.
Travis Yates (08:03):
Well, and it's very interesting you say that
because, yes, a new generationcame in, but there's some
benefits with that, right.
I think we would all agree.
Diversity, including females inlaw enforcement, offers a lot
of value that we didn't used tohave back in the day.
We're much more healthconscious to where, when I
started, there were cigaretteash trays in the squad rooms
(08:23):
right, and we brought the mentalhealth and the professions
along with that.
So there's been a lot of greatstrides.
You mentioned technology.
I think there's a danger there.
We get over stimulatedtechnology.
We use it too much to get awayfrom the common sense of the
mission approach.
But there is a balance thereand there's certainly where I
see the new generation is isthey want leadership.
(08:43):
I don't think that has changed.
They want leadership, butthey're not seeing leadership.
They may be seeing management,they may be seeing
micromanagement, they may beseeing, but they're not seeing
strong, courageous leadership.
And I think that's why you'reseeing so many agencies that are
really failing when it comes toretention and recruiting,
because there's still a hugeamount of people that want to
work for whatever profession itis.
(09:03):
They want to work in leadershipcircles.
But we've got so many exampleswe could go through where we've
seen leaders fail thisprofession and you know, I know
you, sir, I mean you were.
I wanted to talk to you brieflyabout communications because I
think we have failed mightilywith communications.
There's still people today thatthink hands up don't shoot they
(09:25):
still.
They still think hands up don'tshoot happened.
They still think Breonna Taylorwas sleeping peacefully in her
bed.
I could go into the examples ofChicago, where they still think
this poor, innocent kid didn'thave a gun.
I mean, our communication hasreally faltered and created
narratives that our leaders havenot been able to answer for.
But the leaders have the truth.
I've never understood why wecan't defend the profession when
(09:45):
we have the truth and the factson our side.
And you come from a backgroundin media relations and
communication.
Do you have anything to sayabout that?
Eugene Roy (09:53):
You know you have to you.
Somebody told me a long timeago, you know, get out in front
of the story.
You own the story.
Tell the truth, get, get thestory out there, don't let the
story own you.
And unfortunately, a lot of ourleaders don't have that,
haven't been exposed to thatsort of savvy, and because how
(10:16):
to communicate effectively withthe media is not something that
we were brought up to do as werose through the ranks in the
police service, because themedia was seen as the enemy,
everything we did was a secret.
We've gone past that, but westill haven't gotten to the
point where we value thosepeople who are not afraid to
(10:41):
stand in front of a camera andtell the public, tell the
municipal, the governmentleadership what happened, how it
happened, why it happened,obviously knowing what to say,
how to say it and, moreimportantly, what not to say at
the early stages of aninvestigation.
We don't quite have that yet.
Travis Yates (11:04):
Yeah, and I think also we have the benefit that we
could be our own media, rightWith technology there and you
name it, with what we're doingright now, I mean, everybody can
be their own media and we letother people dictate the
narrative and it just spiralsout of control.
We've, of course, seen thatsince 2016 and on, and I think
one thing that has occurred is Ithink the trust in the media is
(11:26):
really at an all-time high, andso think one thing that has
occurred is I think the trust inthe media is really an all-time
high, and so there's anopportunity for leaders to be
the mouthpiece People trust youlook at the Gallup polling
people trust law enforcement ata much higher level than the
media, but I don't personallythink we're taking advantage of
that.
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
Eugene Roy (11:43):
Absolutely.
You know, you're absolutelyright.
I had the good fortune ofworking with a gentleman who's
now the director of AnthonyGuglielmi, director of media
affairs for the US SecretService.
He sought out people inleadership that, he said, you
(12:04):
know, he saw where there was acomfort level with speaking
publicly and he would train uson how to do things.
And one of the things that I'llalways remember is one day he
calls me and says we need you tobe at a press conference on
some sort of major crimeincident where an arrest was
(12:26):
made or something like that, andnormally the dress code for
members of the command staffappearing at media events like
that was the full dress uniform.
He said okay, give me about.
I need about 10 minutes.
Got to switch into my uniform?
No, no, no, no, no.
I want you in your suit and tie.
My uniform no, no, no, no, no.
(12:48):
I want you in your suit and tie.
I said you want me in my suitand tie, but the dress code?
He said let me explainsomething to you People.
You're the chief of detectives.
People think of detectives.
They think of somebody dressedin a suit, whether it's a man or
a woman dressed in a businesssuit with the tie, who speaks
from the heart.
That's what they're looking for.
They're not looking forsomebody in a uniform who's
(13:11):
reading a script and lessonslearned and it's worked well
down through the years.
We need that sort of wisdom.
We need those sort of leadersto step up, because when they
step up excuse me they're notjust telling the department
(13:32):
story, they're not just recitingfacts about an incident.
They are serving as the voiceof the people.
They lead these police officers.
They need to be recognized bytheir own leadership and they
need somebody who they know andwho they trust and who has the
(13:54):
credibility with the media andits stature where they can
address those issues and theycan tell the policeman's story.
Travis Yates (14:03):
Yeah, and you mentioned chief of detectives.
You had 1,200 detectives.
You had 1200 detectives, uh,you know, uh, at your disposal
and I, I, I don't think that wasprobably your goal.
I don't think anybody thatbelieves in leadership, that was
their goal to do that when theystarted in that career and so.
But you found yourself thereand I have to.
Just, I'd like to educate ouraudience a little bit because,
uh, that's a tremendousresponsibility.
(14:24):
You can't control 1,200 people.
You can't supervise 1,200people.
How did you deal with yourmiddle management when you were
in that role to make sure thatthey were carrying that mission,
focus forward.
Eugene Roy (14:36):
You have to communicate with people, and
it's not formal staff meetings,it's by being out there, showing
up at crime scenes, seeing howyour mid-level supervisors, your
sergeants, your lieutenants,how are they interacting with
the troops at a time of greatstress and uncertainty, what are
(14:56):
they doing right, what are theydoing wrong and what do we need
to build on?
And just being out there, beingwith these people three o'clock
on a Sunday morning or when it'scold or whatever, that's what
sets an example and that's howyou connect with people.
And when they see you showingup and taking an interest in
(15:19):
their case or maybe it's notshowing up at a crime scene but
reading a report and you can seewhere a sergeant, the
lieutenant, did a great job, puttogether a team to solve a
robbery pattern or somethingalong those lines and you call
them and say, hey, great report,great job, thank you.
They get that and they alsolearn.
(15:41):
The besides thanking them,you're giving them an implicit
message learn besides thankingthem, you're giving them an
implicit message.
You're teaching them.
Reward your subordinates,Acknowledge your subordinates
when they deserve praise.
Praise them publicly and loudly.
Travis Yates (15:55):
Yeah, and consequently, when we need to
critique, you do that privately,and you mentioned something
that I think is a lost art.
It seems crazy to say this, butI'm seeing this pesky email
taking over for that in-personcommunication.
There's nothing that replacesthe fact of our leaders that get
out of the office, see peopleface to face, whatever position
you're in.
If you're a sergeant, jump in acar with a patrolman.
(16:16):
If you're the chief ofdetectives, get out to crime
scenes and hang out with them,because you're not going to hear
anything other than that.
We always talk about this,eugene, about oh, we have an
open door policy, well, no one'scoming to your door.
You've got to build trust bygoing to them and trusting them
and letting them see you on aday-to-day basis.
And then, because you're goingto go to their door and so
that's really sort of a checkbox, everybody says, oh well, I
(16:37):
have an open door policy, well,it doesn't matter, you need to
go to their door, break opentheir door, make available.
Now, that takes work.
It's much easier to sit behinda keyboard right and send out
emails, but there is literallynothing that takes the place of
being there.
So that's really really solidadvice.
You were in Chicago obviouslyhyperpolitical.
(16:57):
Now Did you see it shift at acertain time in your career to
where you were mission focusedand then politics took over and
then everything else became moreimportant than the mission?
Because I think everybodyunderstands the issues in
Chicago today, but it wasn'talways the case, was it?
Eugene Roy (17:11):
No, it wasn't always the case, but as the mood in
the country shifted, became moresensitive.
Also, you know just the fact ofwhere you are in the police
organization affects how you areinvolved in politics, and
there's capital P politics andthere's small p politics.
(17:32):
And as you climb the ranks it'smore about.
You know you've mastered yourbasic skills.
You know how to conduct aninterview.
You know what the proceduresare for an officer-involved
shooting.
It's how you communicate.
It's how you read the room.
One of my favorite phrases readthe room you go in.
(17:55):
You think you've got a greatidea.
You see everybody's in a badmood and the chief is really
ticked.
Maybe it's not the best day topitch this proposal.
Maybe it's one of those days wejust keep quiet and sit in the
corner and let the steam blowover and come back another day.
You have to do that.
Travis Yates (18:15):
Oh man, I have story after story of what you
just said, like getting a chiefto do something you never
thought you would do.
But if you catch him at theright moment at the right time,
he'll do just about anything.
You want Pretty brilliant stuffthere.
Eugene Roy (18:28):
And it's not going to get done with an email, it's
got to be done in person.
That person that you're makinga proposal, to, that you're
pitching to, they have to seeyour energy, they have to feel
your enthusiasm.
If you don't have that energy,that enthusiasm, your project is
probably not going to goanywhere.
Travis Yates (18:47):
So you mentioned earlier the pendulum swinging
back.
Are you sensing this,especially in our major cities,
to where we're kind of gettingback to that mission?
I have days where I have faith.
I have days where I getdepressed when I see it, but it
really starts with leadership,right, and it starts with
leadership that is not scared tomake the hard decisions, is not
(19:08):
scared to do the right thing.
And the reason we see such alack of it and I call it
courageous leadership is becauseyou can hurt yourself by doing
the right thing.
I know it sounds crazy, butoutside law enforcement, by
doing the right thing you candestroy your career.
So we see so many people thatjust don't do the right thing.
But I'm seeing sort of a hingetowards that.
Are you seeing the same thing?
Eugene Roy (19:29):
Well, first of all, policing doesn't exist in a
vacuum.
Policing is in the overallenvironment and obviously
politics plays a key role in it.
Here in Chicago, one of the bigproblems we've had is that we
had a progressive prosecutor whodidn't like to prosecute and
(19:51):
we've also had some ill-advisedlaws.
We don't hold people on bondanymore, you know, unless it's
something truly horrific thatcontributed to it.
The city, the past two mayors,have been intent on downgrading
the police department.
(20:12):
The police department is downanywhere from 1,500 to 2,000
officers net over the past fiveyears, depending on whose
statistics you believe and relyon.
So you have to take that intoaccount and you work from there.
And fortunately, some good newsyou know the progressive
(20:35):
state's attorney got voted outof office.
You know the progressivestate's attorney got voted out
of office.
We have a former prosecutor whobecame a judge after leaving
the prosecutor's office.
She got elected in aprosecutor's office properly,
(21:02):
firmly, but fairly, and enforcethe law and restore respect for
the criminal justice system.
So we're seeing that.
But again, we're still down1,500 officers on the police
department net loss.
We have a relatively newsuperintendent who is a product
of.
He came up the hard way, hecame up through the ranks and he
replaced a gentleman who livedin another city, came from
(21:27):
another city and commuted hometo his home city every weekend
and wasn't there for the bigevents.
So there's a change in theleadership climate there.
We still have a lot of problemsbecause of the ill-advised laws
passed by the state legislature.
We have a serious problem withthe way police-involved
(21:51):
shootings are handled in Chicagoby a civilian agency that is
operating in violation ofIllinois state law.
But the political powers thatbe at city hall want it to be
that way because they maintainpolitical control for their
political ambitions.
So it's good.
I'm like you.
There's good days and there'sbad days, and most days are a
(22:14):
mixture of both.
Travis Yates (22:16):
Yeah, and really the answer is just leadership,
right, just leadership.
And the reason I think we sawthe success from the military is
in the military day one.
Every military person I've evertalked to when was the first
time leadership was mentioned?
And they all say day one, bootcamp, day one boot camp.
Well, in law enforcement, maybe,if you pass a test for four or
five years and you make thatfirst rank, they send you to.
(22:37):
They don't even, fortunately,they don't even call it
leadership, they call itmanagement school or supervisor
school, right, and so maybe,just maybe, you get a hint of it
.
Then, after you're several yearsinto your career and the next
thing you know you've achievedthe detectives and you think to
yourself man, they have notmentored or trained me at all in
these areas.
Now we do live.
We live in a day and age wherethis information is accessible,
but the great leaders that I'vemet along my journeys have
(23:00):
almost self-taught, and that'swhy I think it's so important,
eugene, that you come on and youtalk about this.
In fact, I'll just I'll behonest with you, my father I
won't ask your age, but myfather retired in law
enforcement in the late 90s andI tried to get him to come on,
because of the wisdom of peoplethat left this profession, that
have led at high levels, ledduring high priority events.
(23:22):
I think we're losing that, andso you are still very, very
active, you're still veryinvolved and I would only assume
it's because of your passionfor this profession, your
passion for leadership.
Eugene Roy (23:32):
I love being the police and it's one thing.
Once you're the police, ifyou're truly the police,
retirement doesn't make a bit ofdifference.
It just means you're notgetting paid but you still think
like a cop, you act like a cop,you talk like a cop and you
bleed.
Your heart bleeds like a cop.
So I agree with you there.
(23:56):
One of the role models for mewas a gentleman who just passed
away by the name of Jim Maurer,who was our chief of patrol.
He was a larger-than-lifecharacter.
He was fond of showing up atmajor events in a full-length
dress, coat and carrying alittle dog, like Winston
(24:18):
Churchill, and puffing on acigar and just being out there
with the troops.
A little bit of a showman, butit caught everybody's eye.
Everybody knew him.
He either loved him or he hatedhim, but you knew who he was
and you knew he was out there.
One of the things he said earlyon that I heard early on in my
(24:38):
career is as a supervisor, as aleader, you are responsible for
the physical, legal andemotional safety of the people
who work for you and neverforget, as a sergeant, the last
person that patrol officer seesbefore they walk out the door to
(25:00):
hit the street is you.
They don't see the districtcommander.
They don't see thesuperintendent.
They don't see the mayor.
They don't see the president.
It's you, it's on you.
You owe that to them.
Travis Yates (25:15):
Yeah, man, it's solid.
You mentioned something that isso important.
You know, this is a professionof identity.
You know, I think people thathave been in this profession,
that do this profession, thatlove this profession it's not a
typical career.
You very much have an identitywith it, which is why you're so
active.
It's why I'm so active longafter the job.
That's very unique.
With that identity can comenegative things.
(25:36):
For instance, we love this job,but here is sort of a trick
that people don't realize.
The job is not required to loveyou back.
It's very much a dysfunctionalrelationship, right, and so
almost everybody that loves thisjob so much will eventually
feel the sting of thatdysfunctional relationship and
(25:57):
and and you, just like me, havebeen through that sting a few
times what piece of advice wouldyou give people listening to
this?
It's still on the job, theyidentify with this job, they
love this job.
Is there any advice, as we sortof you know, as a final
question here, that you wouldgive those men and women?
Eugene Roy (26:13):
Don't forget who you are.
Don't forget who you owe yourloyalty and allegiance to.
Don't become a politician.
Remember those brave men andwomen go out that door every day
to confront evil, because youasked them to.
Travis Yates (26:33):
Powerful stuff.
Eugene Roy, I can't thank youenough for being here.
I think we could just talk allday, but thanks for giving us
your time and thanks for doingwhat you did and thanks for your
service to the city of Chicagoand to the world today and what
you do now.
So thank you so much.
Eugene Roy (26:48):
Well, thank you.
It's an honor to be here withyou.
Keep up the good work.
Travis Yates (26:51):
Thank you.
Thank you, sir, and if you'vebeen watching, listening, thank
you for doing that.
And just remember, lead on andstay courageous.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Thank you for listening to Courageous
Leadership with Travis Yates.
We invite you to join othercourageous leaders at www.
travisyates.
org.
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