November 11, 2024 • 42 mins
Join us for a compelling conversation with Chief Deputy Matt Thomas, a seasoned law enforcement deputy with a wealth of experience in training, narcotics, and investigations. Discover how a journey that began at the tender age of 20 evolved into a significant leadership role alongside Sheriff Mark Lamb at the Pinal County Sheriff's Office. Tap into Matt's insights on strategic thinking, the emotional shift from frontline operations to executive decision-making, and the vital importance of maintaining a broad perspective in leadership roles.
Peek behind the curtain of the intense and strategic operations against the notorious Sinaloa cartel in Arizona, as chronicled in Matt’s gripping book, "The Interceptors: The Untold Fight Against the Mexican Cartel." Explore the stories of bravery and collaboration among federal, state, and local law enforcement teams that continue to battle powerful criminal organizations. Learn how compassion and holistic leadership from Sheriff Mark Lamb have shaped operations and resonated with Matt's own values, and gain a deeper understanding of the courage required to stand firm for justice within the law enforcement community.
Experience the transformation of organizational culture through trust-building and dedicated investment in personnel. Chief Deputy Thomas shares the challenges and triumphs of fostering an environment of openness, humility, and genuine care within the agency. Discover how prioritizing personal interactions over pre-packaged programs enhances relationships and strengthens connections between law enforcement and the communities they serve. As Matt reflects on the necessity of strong, courageous leadership in today's world, he offers an invitation to connect further and continue the conversation on social media.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Thomas (00:00):
The Sheriff and I both will give credit to our
leadership throughout our ranks,and leadership doesn't
necessarily mean that they haverank.
The leaders throughout thisagency made that possible.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates,
where leaders find the insights,advice and encouragement they
need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates (00:23):
Welcome back to the show.
I'm excited you're here andyou're going to be excited.
You're here because today we'vebeen trying to get him here.
It's the man, the myth, thelegend.
Chief Deputy Matt Thomas.
He has extensive experience intraining, narcotics motors and
investigations.
That includes anti-smuggling.
He's the author of theexcellent book Interceptors the
(00:46):
Untold Fight Against the MexicanCartel, and he's an instructor
at Undercover Operations andTactics, mexican Cartels and
line level to executive levelleadership.
This is going to be one heck ofa conversation, chief Deputy
Thomas.
How are you doing, sir?
Matt Thomas (01:02):
I'm doing great Travis.
How are you?
Travis Yates (01:04):
Wonderful man.
Wonderful you got a lot ofgreat things going on there and
we want to get into all of itbecause obviously what you and
your agency have done is anoutlier for sure.
We all want to learn from itBefore we get there.
Just sort of walk us up untilthe day on how you got started
in the career and kind of wherethat career took you to today.
Matt Thomas (01:27):
Oh man, took you to today.
Oh man, the career has taken meall over the place.
I started at the ripe old ageof 20 and I had a life choice in
front of me.
I had a pregnant girlfriend,now wife, of 31 years.
Actually, today is one of ouranniversaries.
Travis Yates (01:39):
Awesome man, you'd already hit the big 3-0, but 31
is pretty important.
Matt Thomas (01:43):
That's right.
That's right, um, but so shewas pregnant, uh, and we were
actually, uh, I was 19 at thattime, she was 20.
She's a little bit older thanme and, uh, at 20 years old, I
had a life decision to make.
And and, uh, I knew that Iwanted to serve in some capacity
, whether that be military orhere and uh, I jumped in and
(02:06):
started applying to severaldifferent agencies.
Pinnell was the first one tooffer me a job and I have been
here ever since, started workingin our jail first, so I was in
detention at that age and thenwent out to the road as a deputy
sheriff and I'm still a deputysheriff to this day, but my rank
has changed several timesthroughout the years and spent
(02:27):
time as a deputy on the streetand then I did some traffic
stuff, the fatalities, duis,that kind of stuff and then I
went into undercover narcoticsand from undercover, I promoted
the sergeant.
I was a sergeant for about 10years and during that 10 years I
did motors, I did traffic again, I did undercover the
(02:51):
anti-smuggling stuff and ran ouracademy and I was a training
sergeant and then, in 2010,promoted to lieutenant and as a
new lieutenant lieutenant, I wasgiven command of our SWAT team
narcotics, anti-smuggling andkind of remained there the
entire time up to my promotionhere.
(03:11):
I did have a small stint where Iwent back to patrol for a
little bit and but then ended upcoming back to tactical and
then that entire time from adeputy to being in command of
the team because it's acollateral duty.
I was on our SWAT team as anoperator, a team leader, in
command of the team because it'sa collateral duty.
I was on our SWAT team as anoperator, a team leader, and
then eventually the teamcommander.
And then in 2016, the AmericanSheriff himself, mark Lamb, won
(03:35):
his bid for Sheriff and asked meto step up and be his second in
command, and I quickly took himup on that offer.
In 2017 on been the ChiefDeputy with Sheriff Mark Lamb.
Travis Yates (03:47):
Well, I know you can look back now with your time
with Sheriff Lamb and just youknow you can see the dramatic
and transformation change inthat agency.
But I have to think, eventhough you were probably excited
about that effort, the positionyou were in which is, you know,
narcotics and SWAT team andanti, that's a pretty good
position as a lieutenant, is itnot?
Matt Thomas (04:06):
it, uh, it was hard to leave.
It was very hard to leavebecause that that was my passion
, that was my love and, uh, wewere the tip of the spear for
what we were doing.
So, stepping from that, I can'tsay it slowed down because it's
fast in a different way in thisposition, but it was an
adjustment, because I was aground pounder I love being out
(04:28):
there and you're not a groundpounder as a chief deputy, you
are doing a totally differentrole.
Travis Yates (04:35):
Well, there's some different emotional
intelligence there and I wantour audience to understand that.
Like we want everybody to go ashigh as you can because you
influence a lot of people, butit is a different style of
leadership, so to speak.
You have to almost set backright and look at the big
picture.
Look at it from an umbrella10,000-yard view of your
decision versus that unitsupervisor or unit commander
(04:56):
that you work.
Does it not work that way?
Matt Thomas (04:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean even as a lieutenant,right, you're considered
executive staff at that level.
I mean even as a lieutenantright, you're considered
executive staff at that level,but even as a lieutenant, over
those type of units, you stillhave more of a hand in things
than you do in this position.
In this position you're just bydesign.
You have to be removed so thatyou can look at the whole
playing field and you can makethose decisions from that 30,000
(05:22):
foot view.
And of course you have to alsoproject forward, right?
So you're looking five, 10years into the future on some of
your decisions and so youreally do have to back out of it
and you can't be in the day today.
Travis Yates (05:36):
Yeah, and many people listening can talk about
the horror stories of peoplethat rose to those higher levels
but still tried to stayinvolved in a micromanagement
type level.
It just doesn't compute.
You, as a lieutenant, wouldexpect to get to pick your team.
You don't want somebody aboveyou telling you what to do as a
lieutenant, so you had to sortof think of it that way.
Matt Thomas (05:54):
Yeah, and you know obviously you and I have talked
before, and I think some of mybest learning experiences
throughout my career were fromsome of my worst leadership.
Experiences throughout mycareer were from some of my
worst leadership, and I knew asI moved up in rank you know A
that I wanted to have moreinfluence so that I could do
more good, and I wanted to beable to be a leader that did not
(06:18):
fail their people right andthat did not fail the agency and
did not treat people that way,just did just micromanaging,
because I've had those leadersbefore, and so I understood what
that does to a good team.
You can just kill a good teamand so I knew that some of my
best work at all those levelswas when they just cut me loose.
(06:39):
They give you some directionand they give you some
boundaries, and then they letyou go.
You some direction and theygive you some boundaries, and
then they let you go.
And, man, I loved having thatfreedom and I gave return on
that investment when leaders letme do that, and so I knew that.
You know, moving to this level,I have to do the same thing.
(06:59):
I trust my people.
They have fantastic heads ontheir shoulders.
They have good judgment.
I got to let them do what theygot to do.
And what you find what I havefound in doing that and you know
the sheriff as well is people,even people that you don't
expect to blossom, blossom andthey do a fantastic job.
And there are some that stumblealong the way, but when they
(07:22):
have supportive leadership, theyjust get right back up and they
put their big boy pants on andthey get with it and they end up
being some of your hardestworkers.
Travis Yates (07:34):
Yeah, it's how you treat those stumbles right.
Leaders can go two directions.
You can treat those stumbles asoh, you're a bad cop, or we're
going to discipline you, orwe're going to do this.
Matt Thomas (07:41):
But if you treat those stumbles as a learning
tool, it can be pretty powerfulfor that officer, can it not?
Oh, absolutely, and those tendto be the officers that become
some of your top performers,because they see that trust from
the leadership, they see thatsupport that.
Okay, even though I made amistake and I can tell you we're
(08:01):
dealing with one right now thatwe had to make a call on and
it's a call outside of callswe've made like this before, but
it was the right call to makein this case and I know that
this person I've had a personaldiscussion with this person that
was facing not being in thiscareer anymore or we support and
(08:24):
we kind of work through theproblem together and I guarantee
you that that guy is going togo on to do great things because
he is going to work his tailoff to earn what we have given
him now every single day.
And and those guys, they justthey go on to be great.
And it is those stumbles whereyou support them rather than
(08:47):
just kick them to the side.
And I'll tell you, a lot of itcame from, uh, from the sheriff,
uh, and and he changed evensome of my perspective because I
was I was a pretty rigid guy,you know coming up very
militaristic because we're aparamilitary organization, uh.
But the sheriff made astatement real early on that
really stuck with me and he saidyou know, if our kids mess up,
(09:07):
do we kick them out of ourfamily?
And I was like well, no, hesays no, we help them work
through it.
They're our blood, you know.
And I said yeah, and he said sowhy are we doing that to our
people in this profession?
And that really stuck with methrough all the decisions we
have to make.
Travis Yates (09:24):
Yeah, and that's why I love talk.
That's why I love talking toyou, matt, because those of you
listening this is he's not justthrowing you a bunch of steam
here.
I mean, go back on our podcastand listen to the podcast with
captain Hunter Rankin.
He is a prime example of whatMatt just talked about.
He was left out I mean theycould have easily got rid of him
and he tells that story abouthow management cared for him and
(09:45):
gave him another chance and, ofcourse, he's flourishing today.
So go back and listen to thatone.
But, matt, before we get intosome of the leadership style
stuff because that's going to begold and you've already sort of
alluded to it you wrote a bookcalled the Interceptors.
That had to have come from yourexperience involved with that
team.
You just talked about kind ofwhat inspired you to write that
book, because you've been allover I mean, this is no jack car
(10:07):
podcast, but we're pretty close, right.
You've been all over talkingabout that book.
Uh, kind of tell us, tell uswhat inspired you to do that and
, kind of, based on yourexperiences, tell us what it's
like down there working near theborder.
Matt Thomas (10:19):
Well, I'll start with.
The inspiration really was thefact that I knew that we were a
part of US history that the restof the world didn't know about.
We were doing things down herein Arizona that is not typical
of law enforcement and a lot ofwhat you're seeing now in like
the Texas area, new Mexico area,they're seeing and facing what
(10:40):
we were facing a decade or soago.
They're seeing and facing whatwe were facing a decade or so
ago and that time frame the 2009, 10, 11 time frame is when a
lot of the operations in thebook were going on.
So I knew we had a piece ofAmerican history that needed to
be told, because I worked withsome just no two ways about it.
(11:04):
I worked with heroes man andthey did some fantastic work and
we were involved in someoperations that had to be
collaborative on every levelfederal, state, local and we had
great teams working togetherBorder Patrol, hsi, us and did
good work.
So I wanted to document thatfirst off right, and I wanted to
get that recorded.
And then I wanted to reallyhonor those people that did that
(11:25):
work and show like here's whatgoes on at night, when most
people are asleep in their beds.
Here's what we were out doingto make sure you could
peacefully sleep in your beds,and I wanted them to know that
and I wanted them to get a no BSversion of here's what we were
dealing with, because if youread the book and you read the
(11:45):
operations, you're going to go.
This is what I get most often.
Those are like militaryoperations.
So, I know, and we didn't knowwhat we were doing, we were not
the military.
We had some military people,you know, that had served and
were part of our teams, but wewere not the military and so we
had to learn that stuff as wewent.
And we're fighting a criminalorganization with unlimited
(12:08):
resources and they're veryviolent.
It's the Sinaloa cartel thatwe're up against here and so,
yeah, I wanted to get all thatstuff in there and in the
beginning you'll you'll read alittle bit about me because I
felt like I needed to lay afoundation of who I was and why
I can speak on the matter.
And then I go into theoperations themselves and it
(12:29):
talks about all that stuff.
Travis Yates (12:31):
Yeah, it's fantastic.
You've got to get a copy of it.
It's called the Interceptorsthe Untold Fight Against the
Mexican Cartel.
I'll put a link in the shownotes, but do yourself a favor,
get a copy of that.
Matt Thomas (12:44):
You done the audio book yet, matt, I have not.
That is the one complaint Ikeep hearing.
Travis Yates (12:48):
And yeah, if you're like me, I get the same
complaint, but I'm like I can'treally say a complete sentence
without messing up, so that'sgoing to take weeks for me to do
hey, and to that point, travis,people don't realize it is
harder than heck especially yourown story to sit there and read
into a microphone.
Matt Thomas (13:05):
Keep the same cadence, all that stuff.
Travis Yates (13:06):
It's tough.
Brutal man, it's brutal.
Maybe A I could do it for us inthe next few years.
Matt Thomas (13:10):
I don't know, there you go.
I've been putting it off.
Travis Yates (13:12):
I'm five years in, I still haven't done it, so
odds are it's not going tohappen.
So yeah, now know you werelaying this out.
It's really, really incredible.
And you mentioned Sheriff MarkLamb, and I have to think that
(13:34):
was a drinking through a firehose, right?
Because those of you who don'tknow Sheriff Lamb, his ideology
on law enforcement is not thetypical leadership theory that
you may think about, right?
It's more holistic, it's morepersonal, it's more of a caring
approach.
Matt Thomas (13:56):
And you had to probably adjust early on to that
, did you not?
I did, and I didn't, because Ikind of had that style myself.
So I, you know, as I came upthrough the ranks, I liked, I
would like to think that I was acaring leader, because I care
about other people Bottom line,right.
I care about human beings andas a leader, I was one of those
(14:16):
guys that if you were a slacker,you did not like working for me
because I would outwork you andthat was not good for you,
right.
But if you were a performer,you loved working for me because
we were on the run and I wouldsupport you as much as I could.
And throughout my tenure as asergeant, I got in trouble
several times for standing up toweak leadership because they
(14:39):
were making wrong decisions.
And I have been in troublethrough my career several
different times because I stoodup for what was right, which is
a really hard thing to do,especially when you're facing
demotion or discipline or stufflike that.
But so that was kind of at mycore anyway.
So I'll tell you.
(14:59):
When Mark sat me down, here'show it went down.
Mark reached out through athird party and said hey, can
you ask Matt if he would beinterested?
And so at the time I said, yes,I would be interested, but I'm
not going to talk to him untilafter the election is done
because it would bedisrespectful as a lieutenant,
it'd be disrespectful to mycurrent administration for me to
(15:22):
have those discussions with him, and he completely agreed with
that.
So after he wins the primary, Isaid, okay, now I'll have a
discussion with you.
And he says, well, I want youand your wife to meet me and my
wife and I'm going to interviewyou for the job.
And I'm like you want me tobring my wife.
And he says yep.
And so I figured out why.
Because, if you know Mark,family is huge for him.
(15:47):
And so he wanted to be sure.
He told me this is an all inthing you know with with you and
I and our wives as well.
And so he wanted everybody tobe part of that discussion and
decision.
And he sat there, he laid outhis, his plan, his goals, his
objectives and, as part of that,you.
I at that time saw who Mark was,the person that had become the
(16:11):
sheriff, and I was all in.
I was like this is the guy weneed, like this is the
leadership we need, because thatcare that you talk about and
just the family orientation andeverything that he approaches it
was evident.
And so I was all in at thatpoint and so I took the core of
(16:33):
who I was and kind of adjustedthat to Mark's style.
And that did take a little bitof adjustment because I was more
of a rigid you know, here's therules and Mark was more of a
let's take those lines and kindof smudge them around and you
know, so we can kind of go intothese gray areas a little bit
more.
So that took a little bit ofgetting used to, but man has it
(16:56):
been productive and I've learnedso much doing it.
Travis Yates (16:59):
Yeah, we're going to talk about success you've had
in the last several yearsbecause, I've mentioned already,
the agency is so unique andit's so special.
But I want to give you credit,matt, and I know you're not
going to take it, you're notgoing to like it well, but Mark
Lamb would not be who Mark Lambis today without you.
I know you're going to give himcredit as well, because people
need to understand you'rerunning that department, mark.
(17:19):
Yes, mark's the sheriff, butMark has other responsibilities
away from the department.
So you're there day to day andyou have to implement what, what
you guys, have put into place.
And so talk to us about thepressure of that.
Right, I mean, that's anincredibly busy job.
It's incredibly taxing job, alot of responsibility.
(17:40):
That was a big adjustment foryou.
Kind of talk to us throughthose early days and how you got
through that to where I knowyour quarter got things in place
.
Now You're sort of cruising andyou're really enjoying things.
But there in the first fewyears I'm sure there were ups
and downs.
Matt Thomas (17:55):
Oh man, there were a lot of ups and downs and a lot
of learning curves, a lot ofyou don't know what, you don't
know right, a lot of openingdoors and then shutting them
real quick because you don'twant anything to come out of
that door.
But yeah, as I moved into thisposition, it is a heavy
(18:18):
responsibility anyways is theresponsibility of the people
that work here and that I workwith and making sure they're
okay, and that becomes the hugeweight, right.
And so at the time when we tookover, we came out of an
administration that didn't thinkthat way.
They didn't necessarily treateverybody, and I want to say
(18:46):
fairly, but they just not withwith dignity and respect, and so
there was a lot of hurtfeelings.
There was a lot of broken,broken down bridges between,
like us and our main county,which is we are part of the
county government still, so wehave to function that way.
So there was a lot of bridgebuilding for us.
There was a lot ofrestructuring relationships and
(19:09):
the weird thing was, even thoughI had been here my whole life,
I still had to regain the trustof the employees because I moved
into this position now and itwas a different position.
They viewed it differently, andso I had to regain that trust.
And that was one of the hardestthings for me, because I was
like dude, I'm the same guy Likeyou guys know me.
(19:30):
But it was still a process andso that was, you know, that kind
of messed with me a little bitand that took some growing and
but really I think we functionedwell once we got up on our feet
and got through that first year.
To how I view this position isjust another assignment and I
(19:51):
think that keeps me a little bitgrounded because I don't I
don't really step back and getoverwhelmed with, oh my God,
it's the whole agency.
I just worry about what Iactually, you know, day to day
have to deal with, which is mydirect reports, and we keep our
span of control here manageable.
So you know, just like asergeant, I have a five to seven
(20:12):
direct report span of control.
So I focus on that span ofcontrol and then I let those
people focus on their span ofcontrol and you know it works
like it's supposed to.
Everybody takes care of theirarea, is responsible for their
area.
That made it much moremanageable for me and it made
that whole you know analogy ofhow do you eat an elephant one
bite at a time.
(20:33):
It made it doable.
So I was able to take that onebite at a time and get through
those first couple of years thatwere really tough learning the
job.
And then we knew in thebeginning we're going to be
drinking from a fire hose atleast the first year, if not two
, and then we're going to startgetting better at managing.
And then we're going to getinto our groove.
(20:54):
And then we knew that theselast few years, which has held
true, would be kind of our finetuning, that we would have all
the big stuff taken care of.
And now we just fine tune as wego along.
And I'll tell you, the sheriffand I both will give credit to
our leadership throughout ourranks and leadership doesn't
necessarily mean that they haverank.
(21:15):
The leaders throughout thisagency made that possible.
Everywhere we looked, we wouldturn to somebody and we would
give them more than they couldhandle and they would take it on
and they would do fantastic andit made this job a lot easier.
Travis Yates (21:29):
Yeah, you talk about having to build that trust
, and this is something that youknow.
I talk about a lot where trustjust doesn't come automatically,
whether you think they knowyou're not, but before they
trust you, you have to actuallytrust them, and so I know that's
the way you operate, and so howmuch did that speed that trust
up when they realized, hey, thisguy trusts me to do my job,
(21:52):
he's not going to get in my way,he's going to trust me?
Did that sort of acceleratethat for you?
Matt Thomas (21:58):
It did.
And I think one of the biggestthings that that helped us leap
forward in that trust piece waswhen, especially with our
executive staff, and when wewould meet with them, let them
actually tell us what theythought Right and I this and
this was a little bit of astruggle, it's not like it came
(22:20):
easy.
And this was a little bit of astruggle, it's not like it came
easy.
There were several times whereI was yelling at my executive
staff to stop lying to me andfeeding me lines of BS, because
I knew there were problems andthey weren't telling me what the
problems were, because thattrust wasn't there.
And that's where we brokethrough is when I told them I
(22:41):
need a no BS assessment ofwhat's going on.
Even if it's me, if I'm theproblem, I need to know that.
And when we had a few leadersthat were like, all right, we're
going to give it a shot, andthey told me that I sucked in
certain areas and I took thatinformation and I adjusted what
(23:01):
I needed to adjust.
And I took that information andI adjusted, you know, what I
needed to adjust, and I thankthem for being open and honest
with me.
We broke down some seriouswalls when that happened.
Travis Yates (23:12):
So I've mentioned this more than once, but the
culture there at your agency isabove any I've ever seen.
And we talk about culture.
I'd just like to hear yourthoughts on what that culture
means, what you did to sort ofbuild that to where it is today,
because I cheated, I cheatedMatt.
I wasn't there the first coupleof years.
You were there.
I've come in in the last coupleof years and so I've seen the
(23:33):
fruits of all the hard work.
But that doesn't happenovernight.
But just culture is probablythe biggest issue inside law
enforcement today.
When culture breaks down,everything breaks down, and so
there are people out therelistening that think it's over.
There's no way we get this back.
We have this leader or thatleader or this happened or that
happened Just kind of talkthrough because, as you said,
(23:55):
when you came in, things weren'tgreat right.
So you had to build that fromthat level to where you are
today.
You did it in a very short timeperiod.
Matt Thomas (24:06):
Talk to the audience about how you were able
to build the culture that youhave today.
Well, I think the biggestfactor for our success with our
culture has been our view ofourselves.
To be quite frank with you, wedon't view ourselves as anything
special.
We don't view ourselves aboveanybody, any smarter than
(24:32):
anybody.
We just view ourselves asregular guys who were granted
these positions and granted theopportunity to serve our entire
county and our agency.
And so I think that, with Markand I, our approach to our
positions helped us break down alot of those walls and just you
know kind of what I justdescribed to you sitting with my
staff and telling them I wantto hear how I suck so I can fix
(24:52):
it, so that we don't keep doingthis.
Because I'm a SWAT guy Right,and when we have hot washes on
SWAT, you know this.
When you get done with a SWAToperation, you sit down.
You have a hot wash.
Rank is out the window, all theBS is out the window.
Your egos leave you sit downand you get real, real quick
because you know your guy toyour right and your left.
You're depending on them to doeverything right so that we all
(25:18):
go home at the end of the day,and sometimes you're the guy
that makes the mistake and youneed to hear that because you
need to make it right so thatyou don't get somebody hurt or
killed.
Well, I know that, coming intothis position Mark's a former
SWAT guy too.
He knows that.
Coming into this position, so wecame in with humility, we came
in with the thought that wedidn't like there's nothing that
we did special.
(25:39):
I mean, he got elected, yes,but there's nothing that makes
us better because we hold thisrank or these positions.
We are just guys that have beengifted with leadership spots
and we want to ensure a legacyof leadership.
We want to come back in 20years, and one of our mantras
has been we want to leave itbetter than when we got it, so
(26:01):
that when we do come back in 20years, I can see that deputy
that started, and he started hiscareer when we hired him and
then, because of the love andsupport and leadership input
that we gave him, he's now alieutenant or a captain and he's
leading the way.
That we wanted leadership towork here, and so that really
(26:21):
was our goal.
That we wanted leadership towork here, and so that really
was our goal, and so this willsound, you know, soft and mushy
to a lot of guys, but it's love,man.
I love the agency, I love mycounty, I love my state, I love
the people that work here andyou know, it's not a, it's that
kind of love that is deep downin my heart that I would give my
(26:43):
life for.
And so when you have that kindof love for your people, your
agency, the profession, I thinkthat carries over and people
understand that that's realright.
I'm not trying to fake the funk.
I'm not trying to be somestuffed shirt who thinks I'm
special because I hold some rankor I have some certificate on
(27:03):
the wall.
I'm just a dude that's incharge and I'm trying to better
the place.
I'm trying to better people andI want to love and support them
any way I can and I think thatthat they feel that they carry
that forward and then they pushthat out as well.
Right, and it just it startsmaking waves and it goes
(27:24):
generation after generation,because we're in a weird time
right now generational shifts inlaw enforcement.
Travis Yates (27:30):
Yeah, it's hard to fake it because people can
smell that out.
But also, when you're authentic, it's hard for people that
below you that want to fake it,it's hard for them to fake it as
well.
So that authenticity breeds, asyou said and I tell this story
in my seminar it's straight fromwhen I was at your agency, matt
, where I was walking out of aclass during one of the breaks
and I saw one of your canineofficers at the top of the sort
(27:51):
of seating area and he's sittingthere, veteran guy, 20 plus
years on, and I asked him I sayhow are you doing today?
Just trying to makeconversation.
And he just lit up a smile andsaid I'm awesome, I to make
conversation.
And he just lit up a smile andsaid I'm awesome.
You know, I don't.
I don't talk to 25 year old,grizzle, grizzle, bitter
veterans that say that all thetime.
So I stopped and I said well,what makes it awesome?
And all he said to me was man,they let me do my job and they
(28:12):
care for me and they're therefor me and just, and it, just,
it just really brought.
We talk about all thesedifferent leadership theories,
but it really brought it down tojust that, and you've been
mentioning it today.
You just care for people andthen when you do that, what
happens is pretty amazing andjust sort of talk about, because
there's been ups and downs.
There's been personal ups anddowns.
Even you and Mark, you've hadproblems.
(28:35):
But when the rubber meets theroad, I don't mean problems in a
bad way, but just life, lifehas happened.
But when the rubber meets theroad and you have a culture that
cares man, you really see it.
Then, do you not?
Matt Thomas (28:47):
Oh, absolutely, yeah, and and uh.
You know, I want people to havea clear understanding that, uh,
it's not all.
You know roses and and uh,unicorns and rainbows, man it's.
You know, life happens.
I mean Mark, uh, we had a toughdeal when Mark lost his son and
granddaughter anddaughter-in-law all in one
(29:07):
accident.
And then our chief, who allthree of us kind of came in
together, our chief over patrol.
He lost his 25 year old sonunexpectedly year prior to that.
So we've had like the personalstuff that has hit us hard and
you have to get up and you haveto keep on going because people
(29:28):
rely on you and you can't.
Um, you know, colin Powell is isa leader that I looked a lot at
as I moved into this leadershipposition and, um, I teach this
in some of my leadership stuffthat I do.
He made a statement that youbring your own weather right and
what that translates to is thatwherever you show up just like
(29:51):
our canine officer, when yousaid how are you doing today?
And he gave you a big smile andsaid I'm awesome that breeds
positivity, right.
And so when you go places andyou're positive like that man,
it just breeds positivitybecause we're like any other
agency.
We have the guys that you knowsit around the table and talk
about what sucks, because that'sjust what our profession does.
(30:13):
We're like that.
We sit around and we bitchabout things, but and we
actually the sheriff and Ipromote that too we tell them
yeah, we bitch, right.
So we expect you to bitch, andif you're bitching about me, I
don't care, that's fine.
Dude, I don't take thatpersonal.
I understand, because there'sthings that the sheriff has done
(30:37):
that I don't like right andthere's things that I do that
the sheriff doesn't like.
We understand that we're allhumans.
We let that human piece play out, we don't hold grudges like
little kids, we act like grownmen and we treat each other with
respect and I think that allcarries forward through those
hard times, through thosepersonal trials, through all of
(30:58):
that of that, and we show ouragency A, like I've already said
, that we're humble, we'renormal, we have the same
problems you have, we're dealingwith the same things you deal
with, and I think I don't knowthat we're going to get into it
(31:18):
but even the mental health stuff, right.
I openly share some of thestruggles that I've had, some of
the stuff I've dealt with andhow I've dealt with it.
I openly share with my agencythat I have went through
ketamine treatments and I tellany of them, hey, if you want to
talk to me about it, I'll talkto you about it and I think it's
it's that vulnerability thatbeing real with them, them
(31:38):
understanding that I'm just anormal dude.
I'm just granted this, thisawesome position to to be at the
head of the agency with thesheriff.
I think all of that culminatesinto the culture we're speaking
of and the leadership and kindof how we have pushed forward
through this.
Travis Yates (31:56):
Yeah, that vulnerability is big.
It's so rare, matt, and it'shard to describe.
When I'm with your agency and Isee you intermingling, it's
hard to describe because it's sodifferent, it's so unique.
It's so gratifying to watch andmost people aren't in that
environment, unfortunately.
But you alluded to it.
We were actually just now goingto get to it.
But you've given your agencyincredible resources to make
(32:18):
them better.
They may have to take their owninitiative, but there's
incredible things you've done.
I mean you're doing things thatcombine.
I don't know if every agency isdoing this.
I mean, just on the top of myhead, you, you do leadership
training constantly.
Uh, you, you do you bring inpage doing the yoga stuff.
You've done the uh, uh, you'vedone, uh, dr Miss Javiti Javiti
(32:40):
stuff.
I mean you've got a lot ofresources for your agency.
Just kind of talk about howyou've seen that help your
agency, all the opportunitiesyou've given them.
Matt Thomas (32:51):
Well, we want to be .
As you mentioned early on.
The sheriff has a holisticapproach and that's how we want
to kind of approach.
How we treat the agency is aholistic approach.
So we want to throw out as manyresources as we can because we
understand again that we're allpeople.
Everybody learns a differentway, everybody views things a
(33:14):
different way.
Everybody you know they havedifferent likes, dislikes, and
so we try to bring in as many ofthose programs you know, as
many leadership style trainingsthat we can, so that they get
different angles and we're notjust trying to push something
that we believe in down theirthroat, we're giving them
(33:34):
options.
Because I really feel that'slike one of the wins that we
have is when we just put stuffout there and we say, hey, we
want to help you, here aredifferent things out there that
we think can help you and we'regoing to bring them in and make
them available to you.
Not, the yoga is a perfectexample.
I was just having aconversation on do we want to
(33:56):
continue or do we not?
Is it worth our return oninvestment?
Because we only have X numberof employees who are
participating and we pay thismuch for it, and I'm like well,
let's talk about the number.
You know we have this manyemployees that are participating
and we pay this much, so thatequals X amount per employee.
I think that's a pretty goodinvestment, right, and you know
(34:20):
just not to air our dirtylaundry.
But we have about 10, 15percent of our agency that takes
part in the yoga.
But if I say no to that, then10 or 15 percent of the people
that are getting something fromthat have now lost out.
And if I get 10 programs thatcapture 10 or 15 percent, guess
what?
I'm there.
Travis Yates (34:39):
I've got my 100 percent.
Matt Thomas (34:40):
Right.
Travis Yates (34:41):
No, it's a.
It's a great way to look at it,because I talk to so many
agencies and I go well, we don'tneed this, we have this deal or
we have this deal, and they'relocked into a certain
methodology.
Right, and what you said is soaccurate.
Everybody learns different,something like different
people's fire than everythingelse.
Yoga may not be for everybody,but the jiu jitsu may be for
other people, and so that isobviously that's an investment.
(35:03):
It's an investment of resources, but there's no better way to
invest your resources than yourpeople.
That's what you're doing.
Matt Thomas (35:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And if you look at it, if youlook at our agency like you
noticed when you were here,travis, and it's noticed all
over the state and even thecountry people always ask, mark,
and I, like man, what are youguys doing down there in Pinal
County?
Because here's the truetestament when I talk to
agencies throughout who have metpeople from our agency and they
(35:31):
have no idea that I'm connectedto any of these people that I'm
talking to, and somebody comesup to you and says I don't know
what you guys are doing in PinalCounty, but your people love it
down there, that is a win forus, that is what we're going for
right, and so it is a trueinvestment.
Because what that translates toand I think this is where
(35:53):
leaders in this profession missthe mark because they're paying
attention to the wrong stuff andso for us, when we get from
people all over the state, allover the nation, I don't know
what you're doing in PinalCounty, but your people love you
there.
Well, if our people love us andthey love the job they're doing,
(36:15):
guess what?
They're doing a better jobbecause they're going out with
positive attitudes.
They're treating peopledifferently, and we see that in
our community and that is theinvestment.
So if you're going out withpositive attitudes, they're
treating people differently andwe see that in our community and
that is the investment.
So if you're going to try andtell me that, you can put a
dollar amount on our communityfeeling safer than they've ever
felt, our crime consistentlygoing down every year while our
(36:39):
jail population goes down.
So we're not arresting andbooking more people, we're
booking less people, but ourcrime rate is dropping.
That's because we havecommunity involvement, because
they are not afraid to engagewith our officers.
They view our officers asfellow citizens and that all is
a winning combination.
Travis Yates (36:59):
Well, let me just sort of delineate the difference
in what you're talking about.
I want our especially ourmunicipal leaders to take heed.
What you're talking about, Matt, is you're investing in your
individual personnel versus acatch-all program right now in
(37:22):
Boston, where there's going tobe all about the programs, all
about the plug and play systemsand this, and that that does not
replace the investment and whatyou can do for people, Because
if you can invest in people, youdon't need those programs.
Matt Thomas (37:31):
Right, yeah, and that is it, travis, if you
invest in your people, yourpeople are going to create the
programs or they're going to bethe program.
Right, and just like we haveall different demographics in
our community, we have alldifferent demographics in our
agency.
And when, when you, when theyunderstand the mission, when
(37:53):
they know the heart of thesheriff and the chief and they
know how we care not only aboutthem but about our community,
and they feel cared for, andthen they take that forward and
they care about their communitythe same way we care about them
and we care about our community.
That's where you get your winand that's where those programs
go by the wayside, because thenyou have personal interactions,
(38:15):
which is really what we need toget back to in policing.
Right, we need personalinteractions between Matt Thomas
, the person in this uniform,and whoever I'm dealing with in
the community, because when wedeal with each other as people,
it's a different thing.
It's it looks different, itfeels different and we have
different results.
(38:35):
There's a different level ofrespect for citizens and how
they interact with this uniform,in particular from our agency.
And I can tell you you know,you were here, you can see it
and feel it.
There are agencies around usthat have completely different
interactions with citizens,based on the agency they work
(39:00):
for and how they treat people.
And you know I'm not a hug, athug guy Like.
We tell people when we hire themanybody we hire in a uniform
the sheriff and I sit down withthem prior to them coming on the
job and we just have aone-on-one or two-on-one with
them, three-on-one sometimeswith one of our chiefs, and we
(39:20):
tell them this is super informal, we want to give you a chance
to get to know us a little bit,know what you're getting into,
ask us any questions you want toask us, and then we want to
know a little bit about you andthen we tell them that we expect
you to be loyal to this patchand to this agency and to the
people you serve.
That's where your loyalty liesand you protect the Constitution
(39:43):
and guess what?
There are some evil people outthere and when you're dealing
with them, we expect you to dealwith them accordingly, because
a lot of times they onlyunderstand certain things.
Ie violence and I was told as ayoung cop and this has stuck
with me my whole career.
We are customer service oriented.
If the customer demandsviolence.
We got to give it harder andfaster so that we're safe and we
(40:06):
take care of our community, andso we kind of give them that
same spill.
We expect them to treat all ofour community members with
respect.
But this job is not pretty andwhen it gets ugly we want you to
get to work and we're going toworry about all the BS.
We're going to take care ofthat.
You just do your job and comehome safe.
Travis Yates (40:24):
There's a lot of learning lessons in this podcast
, matt, but I'll tell you rightnow what you just said.
Every chief and sheriff inAmerica needs to have that
conversation with their officers, because we're seeing an
epidemic of unawareness,epidemic of hesitation.
We're seeing more officerassaults than ever before.
It's because cops are morescared of YouTube and everybody
else than actually going homeand not there, because they
(40:45):
don't know if they're going tosomeone's going to have their
back, and so just having thatconversation alone could do
wonders for their safety.
Matt Thomas (40:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
And again, as they're coming towork for us, we want it to be
very clear, like you didn't hearit from somebody who heard it
from somebody who heard it fromsomebody that's straight from
the sheriff.
And this is our expectationsand this is how we're going to
treat it.
Travis Yates (41:08):
Chief Deputy Matt Thomas, I can't thank you enough
.
Where can people find you?
Reach out to you?
Because I'm telling you, if youhaven't heard him speak or you
haven't read his book, you'vegot to get a hold of both.
Matt Thomas (41:17):
He's kind of telling where the easiest way to
find me is either on linkedinor instagram.
I'm active on both of those uh.
Instagram, my my handle thereis at deputy underscore one time
uh.
And then on linkedin smathythomas and uh yeah, get in touch
and and, uh, you know, justjust like you, travis, I I love
(41:39):
this profession.
Um, I want to keep it strongand so i'm'm doing my best to
pass on what I can pass on.
Travis Yates (41:45):
It's legacy building stuff.
Matt, I can't thank you enough.
Thanks for being here and ifyou've been watching and you've
been listening, thank you forbeing here.
Thank you for spending yourtime with us and just remember
lead on and stay courageous.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Thank you for listening to Courageous
Leadership with Travis Yates.
We invite you to join othercourageous leaders at www.
travisyates.
org.
The Sheriff and I both will give credit to our
leadership throughout our ranks,and leadership doesn't
necessarily mean that they haverank.
The leaders throughout thisagency made that possible.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates,
where leaders find the insights,advice and encouragement they
need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates (00:23):
Welcome back to the show.
I'm excited you're here andyou're going to be excited.
You're here because today we'vebeen trying to get him here.
It's the man, the myth, thelegend.
Chief Deputy Matt Thomas.
He has extensive experience intraining, narcotics motors and
investigations.
That includes anti-smuggling.
He's the author of theexcellent book Interceptors the
(00:46):
Untold Fight Against the MexicanCartel, and he's an instructor
at Undercover Operations andTactics, mexican Cartels and
line level to executive levelleadership.
This is going to be one heck ofa conversation, chief Deputy
Thomas.
How are you doing, sir?
Matt Thomas (01:02):
I'm doing great Travis.
How are you?
Travis Yates (01:04):
Wonderful man.
Wonderful you got a lot ofgreat things going on there and
we want to get into all of itbecause obviously what you and
your agency have done is anoutlier for sure.
We all want to learn from itBefore we get there.
Just sort of walk us up untilthe day on how you got started
in the career and kind of wherethat career took you to today.
Matt Thomas (01:27):
Oh man, took you to today.
Oh man, the career has taken meall over the place.
I started at the ripe old ageof 20 and I had a life choice in
front of me.
I had a pregnant girlfriend,now wife, of 31 years.
Actually, today is one of ouranniversaries.
Travis Yates (01:39):
Awesome man, you'd already hit the big 3-0, but 31
is pretty important.
Matt Thomas (01:43):
That's right.
That's right, um, but so shewas pregnant, uh, and we were
actually, uh, I was 19 at thattime, she was 20.
She's a little bit older thanme and, uh, at 20 years old, I
had a life decision to make.
And and, uh, I knew that Iwanted to serve in some capacity
, whether that be military orhere and uh, I jumped in and
(02:06):
started applying to severaldifferent agencies.
Pinnell was the first one tooffer me a job and I have been
here ever since, started workingin our jail first, so I was in
detention at that age and thenwent out to the road as a deputy
sheriff and I'm still a deputysheriff to this day, but my rank
has changed several timesthroughout the years and spent
(02:27):
time as a deputy on the streetand then I did some traffic
stuff, the fatalities, duis,that kind of stuff and then I
went into undercover narcoticsand from undercover, I promoted
the sergeant.
I was a sergeant for about 10years and during that 10 years I
did motors, I did traffic again, I did undercover the
(02:51):
anti-smuggling stuff and ran ouracademy and I was a training
sergeant and then, in 2010,promoted to lieutenant and as a
new lieutenant lieutenant, I wasgiven command of our SWAT team
narcotics, anti-smuggling andkind of remained there the
entire time up to my promotionhere.
(03:11):
I did have a small stint where Iwent back to patrol for a
little bit and but then ended upcoming back to tactical and
then that entire time from adeputy to being in command of
the team because it's acollateral duty.
I was on our SWAT team as anoperator, a team leader, in
command of the team because it'sa collateral duty.
I was on our SWAT team as anoperator, a team leader, and
then eventually the teamcommander.
And then in 2016, the AmericanSheriff himself, mark Lamb, won
(03:35):
his bid for Sheriff and asked meto step up and be his second in
command, and I quickly took himup on that offer.
In 2017 on been the ChiefDeputy with Sheriff Mark Lamb.
Travis Yates (03:47):
Well, I know you can look back now with your time
with Sheriff Lamb and just youknow you can see the dramatic
and transformation change inthat agency.
But I have to think, eventhough you were probably excited
about that effort, the positionyou were in which is, you know,
narcotics and SWAT team andanti, that's a pretty good
position as a lieutenant, is itnot?
Matt Thomas (04:06):
it, uh, it was hard to leave.
It was very hard to leavebecause that that was my passion
, that was my love and, uh, wewere the tip of the spear for
what we were doing.
So, stepping from that, I can'tsay it slowed down because it's
fast in a different way in thisposition, but it was an
adjustment, because I was aground pounder I love being out
(04:28):
there and you're not a groundpounder as a chief deputy, you
are doing a totally differentrole.
Travis Yates (04:35):
Well, there's some different emotional
intelligence there and I wantour audience to understand that.
Like we want everybody to go ashigh as you can because you
influence a lot of people, butit is a different style of
leadership, so to speak.
You have to almost set backright and look at the big
picture.
Look at it from an umbrella10,000-yard view of your
decision versus that unitsupervisor or unit commander
(04:56):
that you work.
Does it not work that way?
Matt Thomas (04:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean even as a lieutenant,right, you're considered
executive staff at that level.
I mean even as a lieutenantright, you're considered
executive staff at that level,but even as a lieutenant, over
those type of units, you stillhave more of a hand in things
than you do in this position.
In this position you're just bydesign.
You have to be removed so thatyou can look at the whole
playing field and you can makethose decisions from that 30,000
(05:22):
foot view.
And of course you have to alsoproject forward, right?
So you're looking five, 10years into the future on some of
your decisions and so youreally do have to back out of it
and you can't be in the day today.
Travis Yates (05:36):
Yeah, and many people listening can talk about
the horror stories of peoplethat rose to those higher levels
but still tried to stayinvolved in a micromanagement
type level.
It just doesn't compute.
You, as a lieutenant, wouldexpect to get to pick your team.
You don't want somebody aboveyou telling you what to do as a
lieutenant, so you had to sortof think of it that way.
Matt Thomas (05:54):
Yeah, and you know obviously you and I have talked
before, and I think some of mybest learning experiences
throughout my career were fromsome of my worst leadership.
Experiences throughout mycareer were from some of my
worst leadership, and I knew asI moved up in rank you know A
that I wanted to have moreinfluence so that I could do
more good, and I wanted to beable to be a leader that did not
(06:18):
fail their people right andthat did not fail the agency and
did not treat people that way,just did just micromanaging,
because I've had those leadersbefore, and so I understood what
that does to a good team.
You can just kill a good teamand so I knew that some of my
best work at all those levelswas when they just cut me loose.
(06:39):
They give you some directionand they give you some
boundaries, and then they letyou go.
You some direction and theygive you some boundaries, and
then they let you go.
And, man, I loved having thatfreedom and I gave return on
that investment when leaders letme do that, and so I knew that.
You know, moving to this level,I have to do the same thing.
(06:59):
I trust my people.
They have fantastic heads ontheir shoulders.
They have good judgment.
I got to let them do what theygot to do.
And what you find what I havefound in doing that and you know
the sheriff as well is people,even people that you don't
expect to blossom, blossom andthey do a fantastic job.
And there are some that stumblealong the way, but when they
(07:22):
have supportive leadership, theyjust get right back up and they
put their big boy pants on andthey get with it and they end up
being some of your hardestworkers.
Travis Yates (07:34):
Yeah, it's how you treat those stumbles right.
Leaders can go two directions.
You can treat those stumbles asoh, you're a bad cop, or we're
going to discipline you, orwe're going to do this.
Matt Thomas (07:41):
But if you treat those stumbles as a learning
tool, it can be pretty powerfulfor that officer, can it not?
Oh, absolutely, and those tendto be the officers that become
some of your top performers,because they see that trust from
the leadership, they see thatsupport that.
Okay, even though I made amistake and I can tell you we're
(08:01):
dealing with one right now thatwe had to make a call on and
it's a call outside of callswe've made like this before, but
it was the right call to makein this case and I know that
this person I've had a personaldiscussion with this person that
was facing not being in thiscareer anymore or we support and
(08:24):
we kind of work through theproblem together and I guarantee
you that that guy is going togo on to do great things because
he is going to work his tailoff to earn what we have given
him now every single day.
And and those guys, they justthey go on to be great.
And it is those stumbles whereyou support them rather than
(08:47):
just kick them to the side.
And I'll tell you, a lot of itcame from, uh, from the sheriff,
uh, and and he changed evensome of my perspective because I
was I was a pretty rigid guy,you know coming up very
militaristic because we're aparamilitary organization, uh.
But the sheriff made astatement real early on that
really stuck with me and he saidyou know, if our kids mess up,
(09:07):
do we kick them out of ourfamily?
And I was like well, no, hesays no, we help them work
through it.
They're our blood, you know.
And I said yeah, and he said sowhy are we doing that to our
people in this profession?
And that really stuck with methrough all the decisions we
have to make.
Travis Yates (09:24):
Yeah, and that's why I love talk.
That's why I love talking toyou, matt, because those of you
listening this is he's not justthrowing you a bunch of steam
here.
I mean, go back on our podcastand listen to the podcast with
captain Hunter Rankin.
He is a prime example of whatMatt just talked about.
He was left out I mean theycould have easily got rid of him
and he tells that story abouthow management cared for him and
(09:45):
gave him another chance and, ofcourse, he's flourishing today.
So go back and listen to thatone.
But, matt, before we get intosome of the leadership style
stuff because that's going to begold and you've already sort of
alluded to it you wrote a bookcalled the Interceptors.
That had to have come from yourexperience involved with that
team.
You just talked about kind ofwhat inspired you to write that
book, because you've been allover I mean, this is no jack car
(10:07):
podcast, but we're pretty close, right.
You've been all over talkingabout that book.
Uh, kind of tell us, tell uswhat inspired you to do that and
, kind of, based on yourexperiences, tell us what it's
like down there working near theborder.
Matt Thomas (10:19):
Well, I'll start with.
The inspiration really was thefact that I knew that we were a
part of US history that the restof the world didn't know about.
We were doing things down herein Arizona that is not typical
of law enforcement and a lot ofwhat you're seeing now in like
the Texas area, new Mexico area,they're seeing and facing what
(10:40):
we were facing a decade or soago.
They're seeing and facing whatwe were facing a decade or so
ago and that time frame the 2009, 10, 11 time frame is when a
lot of the operations in thebook were going on.
So I knew we had a piece ofAmerican history that needed to
be told, because I worked withsome just no two ways about it.
(11:04):
I worked with heroes man andthey did some fantastic work and
we were involved in someoperations that had to be
collaborative on every levelfederal, state, local and we had
great teams working togetherBorder Patrol, hsi, us and did
good work.
So I wanted to document thatfirst off right, and I wanted to
get that recorded.
And then I wanted to reallyhonor those people that did that
(11:25):
work and show like here's whatgoes on at night, when most
people are asleep in their beds.
Here's what we were out doingto make sure you could
peacefully sleep in your beds,and I wanted them to know that
and I wanted them to get a no BSversion of here's what we were
dealing with, because if youread the book and you read the
(11:45):
operations, you're going to go.
This is what I get most often.
Those are like militaryoperations.
So, I know, and we didn't knowwhat we were doing, we were not
the military.
We had some military people,you know, that had served and
were part of our teams, but wewere not the military and so we
had to learn that stuff as wewent.
And we're fighting a criminalorganization with unlimited
(12:08):
resources and they're veryviolent.
It's the Sinaloa cartel thatwe're up against here and so,
yeah, I wanted to get all thatstuff in there and in the
beginning you'll you'll read alittle bit about me because I
felt like I needed to lay afoundation of who I was and why
I can speak on the matter.
And then I go into theoperations themselves and it
(12:29):
talks about all that stuff.
Travis Yates (12:31):
Yeah, it's fantastic.
You've got to get a copy of it.
It's called the Interceptorsthe Untold Fight Against the
Mexican Cartel.
I'll put a link in the shownotes, but do yourself a favor,
get a copy of that.
Matt Thomas (12:44):
You done the audio book yet, matt, I have not.
That is the one complaint Ikeep hearing.
Travis Yates (12:48):
And yeah, if you're like me, I get the same
complaint, but I'm like I can'treally say a complete sentence
without messing up, so that'sgoing to take weeks for me to do
hey, and to that point, travis,people don't realize it is
harder than heck especially yourown story to sit there and read
into a microphone.
Matt Thomas (13:05):
Keep the same cadence, all that stuff.
Travis Yates (13:06):
It's tough.
Brutal man, it's brutal.
Maybe A I could do it for us inthe next few years.
Matt Thomas (13:10):
I don't know, there you go.
I've been putting it off.
Travis Yates (13:12):
I'm five years in, I still haven't done it, so
odds are it's not going tohappen.
So yeah, now know you werelaying this out.
It's really, really incredible.
And you mentioned Sheriff MarkLamb, and I have to think that
(13:34):
was a drinking through a firehose, right?
Because those of you who don'tknow Sheriff Lamb, his ideology
on law enforcement is not thetypical leadership theory that
you may think about, right?
It's more holistic, it's morepersonal, it's more of a caring
approach.
Matt Thomas (13:56):
And you had to probably adjust early on to that
, did you not?
I did, and I didn't, because Ikind of had that style myself.
So I, you know, as I came upthrough the ranks, I liked, I
would like to think that I was acaring leader, because I care
about other people Bottom line,right.
I care about human beings andas a leader, I was one of those
(14:16):
guys that if you were a slacker,you did not like working for me
because I would outwork you andthat was not good for you,
right.
But if you were a performer,you loved working for me because
we were on the run and I wouldsupport you as much as I could.
And throughout my tenure as asergeant, I got in trouble
several times for standing up toweak leadership because they
(14:39):
were making wrong decisions.
And I have been in troublethrough my career several
different times because I stoodup for what was right, which is
a really hard thing to do,especially when you're facing
demotion or discipline or stufflike that.
But so that was kind of at mycore anyway.
So I'll tell you.
(14:59):
When Mark sat me down, here'show it went down.
Mark reached out through athird party and said hey, can
you ask Matt if he would beinterested?
And so at the time I said, yes,I would be interested, but I'm
not going to talk to him untilafter the election is done
because it would bedisrespectful as a lieutenant,
it'd be disrespectful to mycurrent administration for me to
(15:22):
have those discussions with him, and he completely agreed with
that.
So after he wins the primary, Isaid, okay, now I'll have a
discussion with you.
And he says, well, I want youand your wife to meet me and my
wife and I'm going to interviewyou for the job.
And I'm like you want me tobring my wife.
And he says yep.
And so I figured out why.
Because, if you know Mark,family is huge for him.
(15:47):
And so he wanted to be sure.
He told me this is an all inthing you know with with you and
I and our wives as well.
And so he wanted everybody tobe part of that discussion and
decision.
And he sat there, he laid outhis, his plan, his goals, his
objectives and, as part of that,you.
I at that time saw who Mark was,the person that had become the
(16:11):
sheriff, and I was all in.
I was like this is the guy weneed, like this is the
leadership we need, because thatcare that you talk about and
just the family orientation andeverything that he approaches it
was evident.
And so I was all in at thatpoint and so I took the core of
(16:33):
who I was and kind of adjustedthat to Mark's style.
And that did take a little bitof adjustment because I was more
of a rigid you know, here's therules and Mark was more of a
let's take those lines and kindof smudge them around and you
know, so we can kind of go intothese gray areas a little bit
more.
So that took a little bit ofgetting used to, but man has it
(16:56):
been productive and I've learnedso much doing it.
Travis Yates (16:59):
Yeah, we're going to talk about success you've had
in the last several yearsbecause, I've mentioned already,
the agency is so unique andit's so special.
But I want to give you credit,matt, and I know you're not
going to take it, you're notgoing to like it well, but Mark
Lamb would not be who Mark Lambis today without you.
I know you're going to give himcredit as well, because people
need to understand you'rerunning that department, mark.
(17:19):
Yes, mark's the sheriff, butMark has other responsibilities
away from the department.
So you're there day to day andyou have to implement what, what
you guys, have put into place.
And so talk to us about thepressure of that.
Right, I mean, that's anincredibly busy job.
It's incredibly taxing job, alot of responsibility.
(17:40):
That was a big adjustment foryou.
Kind of talk to us throughthose early days and how you got
through that to where I knowyour quarter got things in place
.
Now You're sort of cruising andyou're really enjoying things.
But there in the first fewyears I'm sure there were ups
and downs.
Matt Thomas (17:55):
Oh man, there were a lot of ups and downs and a lot
of learning curves, a lot ofyou don't know what, you don't
know right, a lot of openingdoors and then shutting them
real quick because you don'twant anything to come out of
that door.
But yeah, as I moved into thisposition, it is a heavy
(18:18):
responsibility anyways is theresponsibility of the people
that work here and that I workwith and making sure they're
okay, and that becomes the hugeweight, right.
And so at the time when we tookover, we came out of an
administration that didn't thinkthat way.
They didn't necessarily treateverybody, and I want to say
(18:46):
fairly, but they just not withwith dignity and respect, and so
there was a lot of hurtfeelings.
There was a lot of broken,broken down bridges between,
like us and our main county,which is we are part of the
county government still, so wehave to function that way.
So there was a lot of bridgebuilding for us.
There was a lot ofrestructuring relationships and
(19:09):
the weird thing was, even thoughI had been here my whole life,
I still had to regain the trustof the employees because I moved
into this position now and itwas a different position.
They viewed it differently, andso I had to regain that trust.
And that was one of the hardestthings for me, because I was
like dude, I'm the same guy Likeyou guys know me.
(19:30):
But it was still a process andso that was, you know, that kind
of messed with me a little bitand that took some growing and
but really I think we functionedwell once we got up on our feet
and got through that first year.
To how I view this position isjust another assignment and I
(19:51):
think that keeps me a little bitgrounded because I don't I
don't really step back and getoverwhelmed with, oh my God,
it's the whole agency.
I just worry about what Iactually, you know, day to day
have to deal with, which is mydirect reports, and we keep our
span of control here manageable.
So you know, just like asergeant, I have a five to seven
(20:12):
direct report span of control.
So I focus on that span ofcontrol and then I let those
people focus on their span ofcontrol and you know it works
like it's supposed to.
Everybody takes care of theirarea, is responsible for their
area.
That made it much moremanageable for me and it made
that whole you know analogy ofhow do you eat an elephant one
bite at a time.
(20:33):
It made it doable.
So I was able to take that onebite at a time and get through
those first couple of years thatwere really tough learning the
job.
And then we knew in thebeginning we're going to be
drinking from a fire hose atleast the first year, if not two
, and then we're going to startgetting better at managing.
And then we're going to getinto our groove.
(20:54):
And then we knew that theselast few years, which has held
true, would be kind of our finetuning, that we would have all
the big stuff taken care of.
And now we just fine tune as wego along.
And I'll tell you, the sheriffand I both will give credit to
our leadership throughout ourranks and leadership doesn't
necessarily mean that they haverank.
(21:15):
The leaders throughout thisagency made that possible.
Everywhere we looked, we wouldturn to somebody and we would
give them more than they couldhandle and they would take it on
and they would do fantastic andit made this job a lot easier.
Travis Yates (21:29):
Yeah, you talk about having to build that trust
, and this is something that youknow.
I talk about a lot where trustjust doesn't come automatically,
whether you think they knowyou're not, but before they
trust you, you have to actuallytrust them, and so I know that's
the way you operate, and so howmuch did that speed that trust
up when they realized, hey, thisguy trusts me to do my job,
(21:52):
he's not going to get in my way,he's going to trust me?
Did that sort of acceleratethat for you?
Matt Thomas (21:58):
It did.
And I think one of the biggestthings that that helped us leap
forward in that trust piece waswhen, especially with our
executive staff, and when wewould meet with them, let them
actually tell us what theythought Right and I this and
this was a little bit of astruggle, it's not like it came
(22:20):
easy.
And this was a little bit of astruggle, it's not like it came
easy.
There were several times whereI was yelling at my executive
staff to stop lying to me andfeeding me lines of BS, because
I knew there were problems andthey weren't telling me what the
problems were, because thattrust wasn't there.
And that's where we brokethrough is when I told them I
(22:41):
need a no BS assessment ofwhat's going on.
Even if it's me, if I'm theproblem, I need to know that.
And when we had a few leadersthat were like, all right, we're
going to give it a shot, andthey told me that I sucked in
certain areas and I took thatinformation and I adjusted what
(23:01):
I needed to adjust.
And I took that information andI adjusted, you know, what I
needed to adjust, and I thankthem for being open and honest
with me.
We broke down some seriouswalls when that happened.
Travis Yates (23:12):
So I've mentioned this more than once, but the
culture there at your agency isabove any I've ever seen.
And we talk about culture.
I'd just like to hear yourthoughts on what that culture
means, what you did to sort ofbuild that to where it is today,
because I cheated, I cheatedMatt.
I wasn't there the first coupleof years.
You were there.
I've come in in the last coupleof years and so I've seen the
(23:33):
fruits of all the hard work.
But that doesn't happenovernight.
But just culture is probablythe biggest issue inside law
enforcement today.
When culture breaks down,everything breaks down, and so
there are people out therelistening that think it's over.
There's no way we get this back.
We have this leader or thatleader or this happened or that
happened Just kind of talkthrough because, as you said,
(23:55):
when you came in, things weren'tgreat right.
So you had to build that fromthat level to where you are
today.
You did it in a very short timeperiod.
Matt Thomas (24:06):
Talk to the audience about how you were able
to build the culture that youhave today.
Well, I think the biggestfactor for our success with our
culture has been our view ofourselves.
To be quite frank with you, wedon't view ourselves as anything
special.
We don't view ourselves aboveanybody, any smarter than
(24:32):
anybody.
We just view ourselves asregular guys who were granted
these positions and granted theopportunity to serve our entire
county and our agency.
And so I think that, with Markand I, our approach to our
positions helped us break down alot of those walls and just you
know kind of what I justdescribed to you sitting with my
staff and telling them I wantto hear how I suck so I can fix
(24:52):
it, so that we don't keep doingthis.
Because I'm a SWAT guy Right,and when we have hot washes on
SWAT, you know this.
When you get done with a SWAToperation, you sit down.
You have a hot wash.
Rank is out the window, all theBS is out the window.
Your egos leave you sit downand you get real, real quick
because you know your guy toyour right and your left.
You're depending on them to doeverything right so that we all
(25:18):
go home at the end of the day,and sometimes you're the guy
that makes the mistake and youneed to hear that because you
need to make it right so thatyou don't get somebody hurt or
killed.
Well, I know that, coming intothis position Mark's a former
SWAT guy too.
He knows that.
Coming into this position, so wecame in with humility, we came
in with the thought that wedidn't like there's nothing that
we did special.
(25:39):
I mean, he got elected, yes,but there's nothing that makes
us better because we hold thisrank or these positions.
We are just guys that have beengifted with leadership spots
and we want to ensure a legacyof leadership.
We want to come back in 20years, and one of our mantras
has been we want to leave itbetter than when we got it, so
(26:01):
that when we do come back in 20years, I can see that deputy
that started, and he started hiscareer when we hired him and
then, because of the love andsupport and leadership input
that we gave him, he's now alieutenant or a captain and he's
leading the way.
That we wanted leadership towork here, and so that really
(26:21):
was our goal.
That we wanted leadership towork here, and so that really
was our goal, and so this willsound, you know, soft and mushy
to a lot of guys, but it's love,man.
I love the agency, I love mycounty, I love my state, I love
the people that work here andyou know, it's not a, it's that
kind of love that is deep downin my heart that I would give my
(26:43):
life for.
And so when you have that kindof love for your people, your
agency, the profession, I thinkthat carries over and people
understand that that's realright.
I'm not trying to fake the funk.
I'm not trying to be somestuffed shirt who thinks I'm
special because I hold some rankor I have some certificate on
(27:03):
the wall.
I'm just a dude that's incharge and I'm trying to better
the place.
I'm trying to better people andI want to love and support them
any way I can and I think thatthat they feel that they carry
that forward and then they pushthat out as well.
Right, and it just it startsmaking waves and it goes
(27:24):
generation after generation,because we're in a weird time
right now generational shifts inlaw enforcement.
Travis Yates (27:30):
Yeah, it's hard to fake it because people can
smell that out.
But also, when you're authentic, it's hard for people that
below you that want to fake it,it's hard for them to fake it as
well.
So that authenticity breeds, asyou said and I tell this story
in my seminar it's straight fromwhen I was at your agency, matt
, where I was walking out of aclass during one of the breaks
and I saw one of your canineofficers at the top of the sort
(27:51):
of seating area and he's sittingthere, veteran guy, 20 plus
years on, and I asked him I sayhow are you doing today?
Just trying to makeconversation.
And he just lit up a smile andsaid I'm awesome, I to make
conversation.
And he just lit up a smile andsaid I'm awesome.
You know, I don't.
I don't talk to 25 year old,grizzle, grizzle, bitter
veterans that say that all thetime.
So I stopped and I said well,what makes it awesome?
And all he said to me was man,they let me do my job and they
(28:12):
care for me and they're therefor me and just, and it, just,
it just really brought.
We talk about all thesedifferent leadership theories,
but it really brought it down tojust that, and you've been
mentioning it today.
You just care for people andthen when you do that, what
happens is pretty amazing andjust sort of talk about, because
there's been ups and downs.
There's been personal ups anddowns.
Even you and Mark, you've hadproblems.
(28:35):
But when the rubber meets theroad, I don't mean problems in a
bad way, but just life, lifehas happened.
But when the rubber meets theroad and you have a culture that
cares man, you really see it.
Then, do you not?
Matt Thomas (28:47):
Oh, absolutely, yeah, and and uh.
You know, I want people to havea clear understanding that, uh,
it's not all.
You know roses and and uh,unicorns and rainbows, man it's.
You know, life happens.
I mean Mark, uh, we had a toughdeal when Mark lost his son and
granddaughter anddaughter-in-law all in one
(29:07):
accident.
And then our chief, who allthree of us kind of came in
together, our chief over patrol.
He lost his 25 year old sonunexpectedly year prior to that.
So we've had like the personalstuff that has hit us hard and
you have to get up and you haveto keep on going because people
(29:28):
rely on you and you can't.
Um, you know, colin Powell is isa leader that I looked a lot at
as I moved into this leadershipposition and, um, I teach this
in some of my leadership stuffthat I do.
He made a statement that youbring your own weather right and
what that translates to is thatwherever you show up just like
(29:51):
our canine officer, when yousaid how are you doing today?
And he gave you a big smile andsaid I'm awesome that breeds
positivity, right.
And so when you go places andyou're positive like that man,
it just breeds positivitybecause we're like any other
agency.
We have the guys that you knowsit around the table and talk
about what sucks, because that'sjust what our profession does.
(30:13):
We're like that.
We sit around and we bitchabout things, but and we
actually the sheriff and Ipromote that too we tell them
yeah, we bitch, right.
So we expect you to bitch, andif you're bitching about me, I
don't care, that's fine.
Dude, I don't take thatpersonal.
I understand, because there'sthings that the sheriff has done
(30:37):
that I don't like right andthere's things that I do that
the sheriff doesn't like.
We understand that we're allhumans.
We let that human piece play out, we don't hold grudges like
little kids, we act like grownmen and we treat each other with
respect and I think that allcarries forward through those
hard times, through thosepersonal trials, through all of
(30:58):
that of that, and we show ouragency A, like I've already said
, that we're humble, we'renormal, we have the same
problems you have, we're dealingwith the same things you deal
with, and I think I don't knowthat we're going to get into it
(31:18):
but even the mental health stuff, right.
I openly share some of thestruggles that I've had, some of
the stuff I've dealt with andhow I've dealt with it.
I openly share with my agencythat I have went through
ketamine treatments and I tellany of them, hey, if you want to
talk to me about it, I'll talkto you about it and I think it's
it's that vulnerability thatbeing real with them, them
(31:38):
understanding that I'm just anormal dude.
I'm just granted this, thisawesome position to to be at the
head of the agency with thesheriff.
I think all of that culminatesinto the culture we're speaking
of and the leadership and kindof how we have pushed forward
through this.
Travis Yates (31:56):
Yeah, that vulnerability is big.
It's so rare, matt, and it'shard to describe.
When I'm with your agency and Isee you intermingling, it's
hard to describe because it's sodifferent, it's so unique.
It's so gratifying to watch andmost people aren't in that
environment, unfortunately.
But you alluded to it.
We were actually just now goingto get to it.
But you've given your agencyincredible resources to make
(32:18):
them better.
They may have to take their owninitiative, but there's
incredible things you've done.
I mean you're doing things thatcombine.
I don't know if every agency isdoing this.
I mean, just on the top of myhead, you, you do leadership
training constantly.
Uh, you, you do you bring inpage doing the yoga stuff.
You've done the uh, uh, you'vedone, uh, dr Miss Javiti Javiti
(32:40):
stuff.
I mean you've got a lot ofresources for your agency.
Just kind of talk about howyou've seen that help your
agency, all the opportunitiesyou've given them.
Matt Thomas (32:51):
Well, we want to be .
As you mentioned early on.
The sheriff has a holisticapproach and that's how we want
to kind of approach.
How we treat the agency is aholistic approach.
So we want to throw out as manyresources as we can because we
understand again that we're allpeople.
Everybody learns a differentway, everybody views things a
(33:14):
different way.
Everybody you know they havedifferent likes, dislikes, and
so we try to bring in as many ofthose programs you know, as
many leadership style trainingsthat we can, so that they get
different angles and we're notjust trying to push something
that we believe in down theirthroat, we're giving them
(33:34):
options.
Because I really feel that'slike one of the wins that we
have is when we just put stuffout there and we say, hey, we
want to help you, here aredifferent things out there that
we think can help you and we'regoing to bring them in and make
them available to you.
Not, the yoga is a perfectexample.
I was just having aconversation on do we want to
(33:56):
continue or do we not?
Is it worth our return oninvestment?
Because we only have X numberof employees who are
participating and we pay thismuch for it, and I'm like well,
let's talk about the number.
You know we have this manyemployees that are participating
and we pay this much, so thatequals X amount per employee.
I think that's a pretty goodinvestment, right, and you know
(34:20):
just not to air our dirtylaundry.
But we have about 10, 15percent of our agency that takes
part in the yoga.
But if I say no to that, then10 or 15 percent of the people
that are getting something fromthat have now lost out.
And if I get 10 programs thatcapture 10 or 15 percent, guess
what?
I'm there.
Travis Yates (34:39):
I've got my 100 percent.
Matt Thomas (34:40):
Right.
Travis Yates (34:41):
No, it's a.
It's a great way to look at it,because I talk to so many
agencies and I go well, we don'tneed this, we have this deal or
we have this deal, and they'relocked into a certain
methodology.
Right, and what you said is soaccurate.
Everybody learns different,something like different
people's fire than everythingelse.
Yoga may not be for everybody,but the jiu jitsu may be for
other people, and so that isobviously that's an investment.
(35:03):
It's an investment of resources, but there's no better way to
invest your resources than yourpeople.
That's what you're doing.
Matt Thomas (35:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And if you look at it, if youlook at our agency like you
noticed when you were here,travis, and it's noticed all
over the state and even thecountry people always ask, mark,
and I, like man, what are youguys doing down there in Pinal
County?
Because here's the truetestament when I talk to
agencies throughout who have metpeople from our agency and they
(35:31):
have no idea that I'm connectedto any of these people that I'm
talking to, and somebody comesup to you and says I don't know
what you guys are doing in PinalCounty, but your people love it
down there, that is a win forus, that is what we're going for
right, and so it is a trueinvestment.
Because what that translates toand I think this is where
(35:53):
leaders in this profession missthe mark because they're paying
attention to the wrong stuff andso for us, when we get from
people all over the state, allover the nation, I don't know
what you're doing in PinalCounty, but your people love you
there.
Well, if our people love us andthey love the job they're doing,
(36:15):
guess what?
They're doing a better jobbecause they're going out with
positive attitudes.
They're treating peopledifferently, and we see that in
our community and that is theinvestment.
So if you're going out withpositive attitudes, they're
treating people differently andwe see that in our community and
that is the investment.
So if you're going to try andtell me that, you can put a
dollar amount on our communityfeeling safer than they've ever
felt, our crime consistentlygoing down every year while our
(36:39):
jail population goes down.
So we're not arresting andbooking more people, we're
booking less people, but ourcrime rate is dropping.
That's because we havecommunity involvement, because
they are not afraid to engagewith our officers.
They view our officers asfellow citizens and that all is
a winning combination.
Travis Yates (36:59):
Well, let me just sort of delineate the difference
in what you're talking about.
I want our especially ourmunicipal leaders to take heed.
What you're talking about, Matt, is you're investing in your
individual personnel versus acatch-all program right now in
(37:22):
Boston, where there's going tobe all about the programs, all
about the plug and play systemsand this, and that that does not
replace the investment and whatyou can do for people, Because
if you can invest in people, youdon't need those programs.
Matt Thomas (37:31):
Right, yeah, and that is it, travis, if you
invest in your people, yourpeople are going to create the
programs or they're going to bethe program.
Right, and just like we haveall different demographics in
our community, we have alldifferent demographics in our
agency.
And when, when you, when theyunderstand the mission, when
(37:53):
they know the heart of thesheriff and the chief and they
know how we care not only aboutthem but about our community,
and they feel cared for, andthen they take that forward and
they care about their communitythe same way we care about them
and we care about our community.
That's where you get your winand that's where those programs
go by the wayside, because thenyou have personal interactions,
(38:15):
which is really what we need toget back to in policing.
Right, we need personalinteractions between Matt Thomas
, the person in this uniform,and whoever I'm dealing with in
the community, because when wedeal with each other as people,
it's a different thing.
It's it looks different, itfeels different and we have
different results.
(38:35):
There's a different level ofrespect for citizens and how
they interact with this uniform,in particular from our agency.
And I can tell you you know,you were here, you can see it
and feel it.
There are agencies around usthat have completely different
interactions with citizens,based on the agency they work
(39:00):
for and how they treat people.
And you know I'm not a hug, athug guy Like.
We tell people when we hire themanybody we hire in a uniform
the sheriff and I sit down withthem prior to them coming on the
job and we just have aone-on-one or two-on-one with
them, three-on-one sometimeswith one of our chiefs, and we
(39:20):
tell them this is super informal, we want to give you a chance
to get to know us a little bit,know what you're getting into,
ask us any questions you want toask us, and then we want to
know a little bit about you andthen we tell them that we expect
you to be loyal to this patchand to this agency and to the
people you serve.
That's where your loyalty liesand you protect the Constitution
(39:43):
and guess what?
There are some evil people outthere and when you're dealing
with them, we expect you to dealwith them accordingly, because
a lot of times they onlyunderstand certain things.
Ie violence and I was told as ayoung cop and this has stuck
with me my whole career.
We are customer service oriented.
If the customer demandsviolence.
We got to give it harder andfaster so that we're safe and we
(40:06):
take care of our community, andso we kind of give them that
same spill.
We expect them to treat all ofour community members with
respect.
But this job is not pretty andwhen it gets ugly we want you to
get to work and we're going toworry about all the BS.
We're going to take care ofthat.
You just do your job and comehome safe.
Travis Yates (40:24):
There's a lot of learning lessons in this podcast
, matt, but I'll tell you rightnow what you just said.
Every chief and sheriff inAmerica needs to have that
conversation with their officers, because we're seeing an
epidemic of unawareness,epidemic of hesitation.
We're seeing more officerassaults than ever before.
It's because cops are morescared of YouTube and everybody
else than actually going homeand not there, because they
(40:45):
don't know if they're going tosomeone's going to have their
back, and so just having thatconversation alone could do
wonders for their safety.
Matt Thomas (40:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
And again, as they're coming towork for us, we want it to be
very clear, like you didn't hearit from somebody who heard it
from somebody who heard it fromsomebody that's straight from
the sheriff.
And this is our expectationsand this is how we're going to
treat it.
Travis Yates (41:08):
Chief Deputy Matt Thomas, I can't thank you enough
.
Where can people find you?
Reach out to you?
Because I'm telling you, if youhaven't heard him speak or you
haven't read his book, you'vegot to get a hold of both.
Matt Thomas (41:17):
He's kind of telling where the easiest way to
find me is either on linkedinor instagram.
I'm active on both of those uh.
Instagram, my my handle thereis at deputy underscore one time
uh.
And then on linkedin smathythomas and uh yeah, get in touch
and and, uh, you know, justjust like you, travis, I I love
(41:39):
this profession.
Um, I want to keep it strongand so i'm'm doing my best to
pass on what I can pass on.
Travis Yates (41:45):
It's legacy building stuff.
Matt, I can't thank you enough.
Thanks for being here and ifyou've been watching and you've
been listening, thank you forbeing here.
Thank you for spending yourtime with us and just remember
lead on and stay courageous.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Thank you for listening to Courageous
Leadership with Travis Yates.
We invite you to join othercourageous leaders at www.
travisyates.
org.
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