April 24, 2025 • 43 mins
Whether you plan your retirement for months in advance or are forced into it, the shift to retirement can be stressful and challenging.
In this episode of the Courageous Retirement podcast, host Vona Johnson is joined by guest James Zeigler to discuss the profound and often challenging decision to retire.
They explore retirement's emotional and practical aspects, emphasizing the importance of integrity, faith, and courage. James shares his journey from an illustrious career in Veterans Affairs to a fulfilling retirement, highlighting God's pivotal role in guiding this transition.
They discuss many people's inner struggles, including dealing with the 'bully within' ourselves and how to reframe it positively.
The conversation also touches on resilience, the physical impacts of stress, and the valuable lessons James has documented in his book Chemical Courage.
Listen to gain powerful insights on how to make your retirement a meaningful and purpose-driven season of life.
00:00 Introduction
00:22 Guest Introduction: James Zeigler
02:10 James Zeigler's Career Journey
04:36 The Decision to Retire (OR Not!)
05:55 Integrity and Leadership
08:48 The Emotional Rollercoaster of Retirement
10:30 God's Guidance in Retirement
15:49 Financial Realities and Adjustments
18:39 Personal Struggles and Triumphs
21:46 The Importance of Time and Priorities
23:12 Finding Fulfillment in Retirement
23:39 Understanding the Bully Within
24:49 The Concept of Resilience
28:08 The Impact of Chronic Stress
31:04 The Role of Faith and Values
34:31 Practical Steps to Manage Stress
39:34 Final Thoughts and Resources
Quotes:
" There are two paths to take–integrity is the wisdom of knowing which path to take." James Zeigler
" We need to retire to something and not away from something." Vona Johnson
" The best part of saying yes to retirement and answering God's call to more is that we get to, there's more flexibility in making sure we get the rocks in first." Vona Johnson
" You have to analyze your alignment with your values, your faith, your beliefs. Is it integrity?" James Zeigler
Connect with James:
https://behold1.com
JamesZeigler@behold1.com
If you're a veteran struggling with thoughts of suicide or something difficult, text James at (9 0 6) 8 6 9 -1 4 8 0
Download a Bible Based Emotions Chart https://images.app.goo.gl/miCT8zzmrJZF75Ty6
Prefer to watch the video, catch it here: https://youtu.be/XAKYoDNBe3A
I'd love to hear from you! Send me a text message!
Thank you for stopping by today! Remember to Engage Your Faith and Live Your More as you reap the benefits of Courageous Retirement!
To watch the video, check out my YouTube Channel!
Learn more about the show, author Vona Johnson, and more at CourageousRetirement.com!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vona Johnson (00:00):
I recently overheard a conversation between
(00:02):
a woman and her friend, and itreally struck me what she said,
and it really reinforced all ofwhat we're doing here.
But she was talking aboutretirement and she had
apparently recently retired, andshe said the hardest part was
making the decision to retire.
Today I have a guest, JamesZiegler, and we are going to
(00:26):
talk about that and, and theprocess that we go through in
making that decision how we getthere, and maybe some of the
conversations that we have withourself as to whether it's a
good idea or not.
So I hope you'll join us forthis engaging conversation, Do
you fear?
What lies beyond retirement?
What if it's a gateway to a lifefilled with purpose, meaning,
(00:48):
and adventure rather than anend?
Discover peace and fulfillmentas you boldly enter this new
chapter in CourageousRetirement, a Christian podcast.
I'm your host, author, and coachVona Johnson.
Let's get started.
James.
Welcome.
I am so excited to have you heretoday.
This, I've been really lookingforward to this ever since we
(01:10):
met recently.
It's good to have you here.
It's great to be here and it'sawesome that we prayed before we
even started.
I love it.
Always.
Always.
Yeah.
I just hate to walk into anyconversation like this without
inviting the Lord to guide theconversation because of course,
he knows exactly what needs tobe said during this episode.
(01:31):
Right.
Amen.
Yeah.
Right.
Anyway, you have a, a story.
You have many stories.
We visited a week before last,and there's just so many things
and, and we don't have timetoday to go over all of those.
Fortunately, you've documentedthose in your book, and we'll
talk about that later.
(01:52):
But I want to focus on you areretired from a really
illustrious career.
I mean, you, I would, from ourconversation, I would say you
pretty much hit the pinnacle ofwhere you could be in the Yeah.
In the Vet Veterans Affairs, inthe federal government.
Yeah.
So let's start there.
Tell us a little bit about whatthat career looked like before
(02:14):
you made the decision to retire.
Yeah.
Well, once upon a time I was inthe Air Force and did that for
10 and a half years, and I wasan enlisted person.
And I did.
Easy jobs, pretty much, youknow, I guarded aircraft a
little bit and that was a kindof a part-time job.
But then there was a riff, whichis very similar to what's going
(02:35):
on today.
And, uh, president Clinton anduh, vice President Gore drew
down the military forces and Iessentially lost my job.
So I went back to school and Ibecame a speech pathologist and,
really.
It just felt such great, rewardin helping people, get better
after strokes and TBIs andlittle children that were having
(02:58):
difficulties reading, et cetera.
Then a friend of mine called mewhen I called him and said I
needed a reference.
And, I'm ready to be the CEO ofa neurocognitive center in
Detroit near my sister.
And he said, why do you wannalive in Detroit?
And I'm like,'cause it's inMichigan and I like Michigan and
that's where my sister is.
And he says, you're a veteran,right?
You should apply for this job inthe va.
(03:21):
We have a service line chief forphysical medicine and
rehabilitation.
I'm like.
Huh, that sounds kind of cool.
And that's only 80 miles fromwhere we live right now.
And you'll pay me to move.
Okay.
So it took the government ninemonths to get me in, but I did
get in.
And then six years into that jobI started to drink the Kool-Aid
(03:44):
a little bit and felt what itfelt like to have golden
handcuffs.
So I started the leadershipjourney and I skyrocketed.
I.
Through that journey all the wayto CEO and a presidential
appointment, uh, careerappointment as senior executive
service member and a VA medicalcenter, director.
(04:05):
And it, it was fast, it wasfurious.
It was awesome.
It was fearsome.
It taught me an awful lot and.
When I look back sometimes Ithink that, you know, God wasn't
with me, but God was with me inso many different ways and uh,
led to this.
(04:26):
Yeah, it's not an illustriousretirement, but it's a
flourishing one.
And, uh, I can talk more aboutthat.
Yeah.
Before you go there though, Iwanna hit pause on that.
We see it all the time wheresomeone gets into that career,
I, I experienced it myself.
We get into it, we start raisingwithin the organization and we
(04:49):
get sucked into.
I love how you said, you know, Idrank the Kool-Aid.
We get sucked into this ideathat we're all, that we Yeah.
All of that.
And a bag of chips.
Right?
Right.
And it's.
It's so intoxicating.
Yeah.
To, to see people look to us foradvice and sometimes there's,
(05:11):
there's that point at which allof a sudden we realize, and I
just, yeah.
I don't, I don't wanna namenames, but I've seen it even in
our government mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Here in South Dakota wherepeople who I've admired and
trusted all of a sudden werelike.
Whoa, what happened?
Who is, who is that?
(05:33):
And what happened?
And it's, it's that power thatjust kind of gets within us and
just kind of seeps out.
So as, as Christians, we need toreally be plugged in and ready
before that opportunity comesour way, or, or we can, we can
veer off the path.
Would you agree?
(05:53):
Absolutely.
When, when I started this.
I got my first office, right?
This is my first executiveoffice.
My wife bought me that sign andit says, integrity and it has
two paths.
And integrity is the wisdom ofknowing which path to take.
And she said, I know that youwill always operate with this
(06:17):
because that's what you are.
And I'm like, that, that's,that's amazing that you see that
in me.
That's one of the most.
Important things my wife couldever say to me.
And, um, that drove me and alsodrove me and I responded
differently.
When you sit at the end of thattable, sometimes you see
(06:40):
integrity being revealed.
I talk about this in a book alittle bit, that integrity can
be revealed that it's good andit can also be revealed that you
don't have any.
Or you don't respect it.
And as a leader at the end ofthe table, when people reveal
that they don't have integrity,and you're desperately trying to
(07:02):
instill that in a culture thatis the danger zone, oh, and
integrity is also one of themost important.
Aspects that I strive to live inand what's coming up for me is
when I talk about courageousretirement, and we're gonna get
into this soon, but I.
(07:24):
I, I think it's really importantto make the point that when
we're going through thatdecision process, one of the
decisions is when's the righttime?
Yeah.
And have, have I prepared notjust myself, but my people.
Yeah.
And I talk about finishing well,and I think it's really
important that as we'repreparing to retire, if we have
(07:47):
the opportunity to help, atleast.
Steer the people who are hiringtowards someone who will lead
well.
You know, to find that person,whether, you know, it's like
prepare that person with theleadership skills and the
integrity and, and to help themrealize that the power that
they're stepping into isn't fortheir good.
It's for the good of theorganization.
(08:08):
Mm-hmm.
Do you, do you agree with that?
Can you expand that?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's a big one.
How many people do you know thatyou absolutely revere?
That when they chose to retire,they knew 10 years before they
were gonna retire, they weregonna retire and they had$5
million in the bank and they hadtheir second home on the lake
(08:29):
and they had their mortgage paidoff and they had pizza ordered
for the retirement party andeverybody showed up and it was a
real great day.
I bet that percentage of peopleis pretty low.
Yeah, I, nobody that I know of,I didn't, I didn't get a
retirement party.
I quit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So my, my story's a bit of arollercoaster, and I think that
(08:52):
people that are listening thatare really leaning in towards
those golden types of years,that it's different for
everyone.
It's a very unique experience,and you really do have to
approach it.
That's what I really like aboutyour mantra, is that you gotta
approach this with courage.
You do, you do.
And not your courage.
(09:13):
Approach this with the courageof the Lord and the wisdom and
guidance and, and watch forthose little things that
seemingly are not meaningful,but they really are.
I have a funny story about that.
Go for it.
Let's hear it.
Okay, so I retired October 21st,2023.
(09:34):
But in June I sat down on mywife's birthday and I thought,
you know what?
I'm gonna give her a littlepresent here.
I'm gonna kind of tell her aboutretirement.
So I went on this website and Iput in all my information and I
saw what it was and I took thelittle paper home and I showed
her and she's like, oh, that'sgreat.
In July they retired me.
Like I got an email that said,thank you.
(09:57):
Did doing the test trigger thatthey're like, oh, he is ready to
retire.
We gotta, I guess, I guess so.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no.
And I was frantically trying tostop this process of getting
retired when I didn't reallymean it.
I was just testing the waters,you know, riding a
rollercoaster, trying to findout what's it gonna look like,
maybe.
(10:18):
Yeah.
And, um, and then lo and behold,things got much worse.
But that's God's way.
I, I just love how, you know, heknew where it was going.
He knew, and, and that was hisway of starting You to be
prepared to go where he knew thepath was, yeah.
(10:39):
'cause I was nowhere near that.
I had just sat down in a bigleather chair at the end of a
table looking at 70 some peopleevery morning.
There was no way I was leavingthat.
Yeah, that was good Kool-Aid.
Well, and that's just, it wasalso a good way to, to give in,
you know, and, and it'ssomething that I think is really
important about retirement too.
(10:59):
There's a, there's a group, it'scalled Halftime.
And while I was kind of goingthrough the process, I, I
reached out to this halftimeplace because they do coaching
and they sent me a free book.
And I tell you what, that bookwas really something that lit me
up and said, yeah, it's notover.
Retirement sometimes feels likeI'm gonna sit in the backyard
(11:22):
and I'm gonna watch birds andsquirrels, pay some kid to mow
the lawn, you know?
It doesn't have to be that way.
You Yeah.
It doesn't have to be that way.
Well, and I love, I mean, to me,that's why I say it's answering
God's call to more.
It's when he's, he's calling usto use all of the, the
(11:45):
breadcrumbs that he's given usthroughout our lives and our
careers to bring all thosethings that our gifts and our
talents and our skills and ourdesires together to go do.
What it is that we truly lovewith our lives and, and I always
say we need to retire tosomething and not away from
something.
If, if you hate your job, yeah.
(12:07):
There's, I always figurethere's, there's two directions
that's either time to move on,whether you need, you retire or
you go get a different job, or,and this is like the one I think
we miss the most or we stepback.
Look at whether we areperceiving that job from the
wrong perspective.
Are we, are we looking at it asfor what we're getting out of
(12:29):
it?
Mm-hmm.
Or are we looking at it from,what are we putting into it?
Mm-hmm.
Are we glorifying God in thatwork?
Is there a lesson that we needto learn?
Or is there a lesson that weneed to share with someone else
before we leave?
Mm-hmm.
That's maybe why we're stillthere.
And again, you said it,everybody's path is different,
there's not a cookie cutteranswer to it.
(12:49):
Everybody's is different, andthat's why we need to be plugged
in with God and know what he'ssaying about it.
Right?
Yeah.
This is probably the second mostimportant process that you're
ever gonna be involved in, inyour life.
Your next one is your funeral,and you should really show up to
that one.
You know, I mean, honestly, Idon't think there's anything
(13:10):
more important than retirementother than that one.
Uh, I'm gonna put, um, who youselect to be your spouse.
That's a big one too.
This is true, but that's allpart of retirement, you know.
Well, I mean, think about,Stephen Covey.
Begin with the end in mind.
Begin with the end in mind andhandle the big rocks first.
(13:32):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and that's, that goes backto those golden handcuffs.
You, you start being everythingto everyone.
Yeah.
And then you get drained'causeyou don't have it to give to
everyone.
And the one that you, there'stwo that you don't give it to.
(13:56):
Maybe three.
Your family, your, your spouse,and God, and you start putting
those big rocks over to theside, pouring in all the sand
and all the little rocks.
Not to steal from Stephen Covey,but it's a beautiful analogy.
It is.
And you can't get the big rocksback into the barrel.
(14:16):
Right.
So that is, that is kind of whatI did.
But I also, at the same time,and I love the way you said
this, was that.
It's what you put into, notreally what you're getting out
of it.
And I sat in this balancebetween those two things.
And that balance was integrity.
(14:38):
Yeah.
I felt like it would go likethis day to day, minute to
minute.
It didn't, it didn't stay likethis where I was able to just do
a little adjustment.
It was like the Titanic havingto turn it when something would
happen and.
That created a lot of stress,increased the cortisol levels in
(14:58):
my body to the point that Ialmost died.
Tell you about that in a littlebit.
Um, but that also was part ofwhy God had me in June do that
retirement thing, because when Igot to that point where it was
so bad and so toxic that I hadto walk out of a C-suite, I
(15:21):
could.
Because I knew that, at least Iknow that about what the future
holds.
But we didn't know anythingelse.
I mean, I didn't have the fullretirement that I had now, and
it's not much.
I went from hundreds ofthousands of dollars down to
less than a hundred thousanddollars just like that in one
day.
(15:42):
It just all changed.
And that was the day before my60th birthday.
Oh, boom.
Here you go.
But don't you also think thatpart of the handcuffs is this
concept that you can't retireuntil you have massive amounts
of money put aside.
(16:03):
Yeah.
'cause you're gonna need all ofthat and, and in reality.
That's that part where we, wearen't trusting in God when we
think it's up to us to make surea bank account is a certain
level.
Yeah.
I mean,'cause we can adjust ourlifestyle.
We can go get another side gigfor, for income or whatever.
And that for me, my retirementand I, I told you this story a
(16:24):
little bit ago, and anybodythat's listened to very much of
what I do, I've talked about thefact that I agonized over that
decision.
Mm-hmm.
It was so, and I was, I wastelling everybody that would
listen to me and I was like,well, I could do, you know, and
what about, and I told you thestory about how my cousin looked
at me one day and she's like,are you gonna starve to death?
(16:45):
And that was just like this biglight bulb.
Of course I'm not, God hasprovided everything I need, but
I was, I, I was clinging to thisidea that I needed that income.
And our lifestyle has changedvery little, even though I took
early, early retirement andbasically left half of my income
(17:05):
on the table.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and you know what?
That's okay.
I, I didn't agonize over, Ididn't have time to agonize
over.
I don't wish this on anybody tohave to go through it the way
that I did.
Where, but you did survived.
You survived.
It was an emergent decision.
Yeah, it was a mental healthdecision.
It was a spiritual decision thatGod was telling me.
(17:28):
God even told me that throughthe director that hired me.
I hired lots of CEOs, he said,and I never hire anybody without
checking with the big guyupstairs.
Now, this is a guy that camefrom the private sector
billionaire.
Really smart, good leader, andI.
I adored him.
(17:49):
I thought, man, to have a chanceto have this guy as my mentor.
And you know what he told me thefirst meeting that we had
together one-on-one, uh, James,I'm, I'm retiring.
I'm like, you're retiring.
Well, at least we'll get a yearor so together.
He goes, no, I, I mean I, I'mretiring before Christmas this
year.
(18:10):
Here you go.
So he planning, you were, youwere his plan.
Yeah, I was the plan.
He had to get this positionfilled in order to take out and,
you know, enjoy it.
Yeah.
But the agony of that decision,God knew that I wouldn't be able
to handle it and had me test thewaters back there in June.
(18:32):
Yeah.
To have that competence, that atleast I can step into this
knowing.
That.
And then when we got here, it'sanother just amazing story that
in 2017 I had some knee surgery,and as a veteran, whenever you
have medical care that wasrelated to your service, you
(18:53):
receive benefits if you applyfor them, et cetera.
Well, long story short, I had asupervisor that, um, abused me
for a year, uh, from behind andrubbed himself.
My back while I typed a messagefor him once a week, and I never
told anybody.
Fast forward to that kneesurgery and a veteran services
(19:15):
officer asked me if I'd everexperienced military sexual
trauma, and for the first timein 25 years, I said yes, and I
spiraled immediately.
It was, it was awfulness.
I, I saw so many things in mylife that were related to.
What that is.
At the exact same time, MattLauer was getting the boot and
the Me Too movement was comingon and I was just deluged with
(19:38):
media and me, and it wasoverwhelming.
It took nine years for thefederal government to find that
claim.
They found that claim when myfeet hit ground in Wisconsin
without a house living in mydaughter's basement, retired,
wondering what in the world isgonna happen to us now?
(20:01):
A really good friend of mine,Jerry Howard, has, has talked
about your failure resume.
And I'll tell you what, I had abig, long failure resume at that
time and I also had a bullywithin me that was telling me
all these wonderful failuresthat I had had accumulated.
(20:22):
And, um, it took.
Eight months of therapy.
I had therapy for the MT and nowall of a sudden this and three
traumatic brain injuries whilein the service, um, just was a,
a real cacophony of danger.
Um, yet the government found theclaim, called me and said, you
(20:47):
need to go see thispsychologist, get this test
done, this test, this done.
And I.
I received the top benefits thatyou could possibly get as a
disabled veteran.
Wow.
And I always look back and I'mlike, how in the world did a guy
with three TBIs and MST rise tothe point at which he was the
CEO, that that's gotta be God?
(21:11):
'cause it certainly isn't by mystrength, and the retirement
wasn't by my strength either.
And I think, I think God reallyknows that about me, and you
might know that about peoplethat are listening too.
And it's, if you are in thatplace, I highly encourage you to
lean into that, ask God aboutit.
Right?
(21:31):
Because it's not really aboutthe retirement and what it will
be like and how much it willmake and all of that stuff.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
It's really about what you'regonna be able to give when you
have this extra time.
Right.
How many times you look down atyour planner in the day and you
go, I don't have time to go tothe bathroom.
(21:51):
Oh, I don't have that problem.
I get busy and forget, but I,that's, and to me that's the
best part of saying yes toretirement and answering God's
call to more.
Yeah.
Is that we get to, there's moreflexibility in making sure we
get the rocks in first.
(22:12):
You know, I honestly do not knowhow I got to work at eight
o'clock every morning for 30years.
I just, you know, because I, Istart caffeine and no sleep.
I don't drink caffeine.
But I now know it was because.
I didn't have an exerciseroutine.
(22:33):
I didn't, I didn't start everyday in the word, you know, I'd
filter it in when I could.
I, it was the sand I'd put it inwhere I could, you know?
Mm.
And now that I start with thosethings that are the big rocks
and fill in with the rest, it'samazing where God has taken the
path.
He's using the bits and piecesof my life and allowing me to.
(22:55):
Feed into the needs in mycommunity.
And, and that's really awesome.
And it, what's really cool is Iwas looking into your book some
Hmm.
And, and I love that you usedsome of the key words that I use
all the time.
My, my words are peace andfulfillment.
Yeah.
And I think when we, when we getour retirement right.
(23:16):
We have the peace of being ableto set that planner aside a
little bit and, and do thethings that are on our heart to
do, but that we can also, thosethings that are on our heart to
do are gonna bring usfulfillment, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
That's such a beautiful thing.
I wanna touch on though we don'thave a lot more time.
(23:39):
You talk about the bully withinand the resilience and I wanna
give the listeners a taste ofwhat they will get if they go
get your book.
And I also wanna know what the,the chemical part of, okay.
The title is.
That just has me so curious.
Yep.
And that, that is truly theroot.
(23:59):
And as we, as we discover thatourselves and we figure out that
it's really not that difficultto actually prevent this from
happening to us as a society.
And that's, that's why I, mymantra is, I, I would love to
reduce bullying one at a time,starting with the one within.
(24:22):
Yeah, and I recognize that I hadone, I've had people point it
out and say, you're a bully.
I'm like, I'm not a bully.
I'm a nice guy.
Are you kidding me?
Yeah.
I may want my way and I may knowthe way, so I'm trying to
convince you about that, butthat's my job, right?
I'm a leader.
I'm supposed to have a visionand a mission and driving and
all that stuff.
(24:43):
But, yeah, so the, the bullywithin is.
Something that can be easilyreframed.
And the way that I say that isthat we have these code words
that we come up with all thetime, right?
And resilience is one of thosecoveted words now, but if you do
a definition search onresilience, and I'm not bashing
(25:05):
anybody who's got that as theirbusiness code.
I'm just saying that when yousay a word, you say what you
say, you mean what you say.
If you don't know what you say.
It very well may be changing themeaning of what you experience.
So resilience at its heart isabout a physical property of a
(25:28):
material.
It goes all the way back to thebattleships and the hulls that
were built on the on the ships.
That's where the word resiliencecomes from.
The phrase, suck it up.
Buttercup comes from a pilotphrase of when you are in GS and
you're about to, to yourcookies, the worst thing you
(25:51):
could do is to blow'em into thatoxygen mask.
Sure.
It's gonna go back all over yourface and yeah, so that's where,
suck it up.
Buttercup came from for thegreater good.
What is that about?
Is it about being resilient oris that about compromising your
integrity and fighting with it?
(26:14):
So really the voice that istalking to you is talking to you
about your values and is reallya helpful voice.
It's not an imposter.
It's not a liar.
It's not the thief.
It's not the devil.
It's really something that'sbeautiful within, and the
reframing is I have written acontract with my bully.
(26:40):
It's a solid contract built onlegal principles that it has a
preamble, it has different partsand all of this stuff.
It's very intentional that when.
The bully says, Hey, you'rethis, you're that.
You're an entrepreneur.
You call yourself that.
I can lean into it and say, Hey,paragraph two A of our contract
(27:03):
says that you and I are gonnatalk about this before you come
up with an accusation.
Cool.
So when would you like to meet?
How about now?
And with my coaching clients,I've actually had them write a
letter to their bully.
It's.
Unbelievably powerful to do.
What do you wanna say to thatbully?
(27:24):
What do you really like aboutthat bully?
What do you admire about them?
Because then you, when youadmire somebody and they're your
friend, they, they can hurt you,but it's, the wounds of a friend
are different than the wounds ofan enemy for sure.
Right?
For sure.
And if you have an understandingwith that friend, they're not
(27:47):
gonna wound you.
You have an understanding, youhave a binding contract.
Reframe it in that regard.
It gives you great peace.
Yeah, because you're not againstyourself anymore.
You're actually a team now.
That's very cool.
What could be bad about that?
No, I love that.
(28:08):
That's so the chemical part isas you have this battle we now
know and have known for manyyears that.
Cortisol, serotonin, oxytocin,those are like some big names,
right?
But it's really simple.
It comes down to is it an acutething or is it a chronic thing?
An acute thing is like, you seea wolf running at you and you
(28:31):
are scared to, you know, eh,it's this thing gonna eat me.
That's good.
That's good cortisol because itbuilds you up.
It gives you the power that somemothers have that, you know,
we've seen them lift cars.
That all comes from that acutemoment of Superman or Superwoman
power.
Yep.
(28:51):
But when you sit in a boardroomor you're in a, in a
dysfunctional relationship, orsomebody is constantly talking
about your sports team as thoughyou are the owner of the team,
and it's like, geez man, it's agame, you know?
But the pressure just keepscoming.
Yeah, that's what happened to mein Christmas Eve in 2022.
(29:15):
I wound up with a pulmonarybilateral widow maker embolism
on both sides of my lungsbecause of chronic, repetitive
injuries from stress.
Yep.
There's a lot about that storythat's, that's in the book that
(29:36):
I'm not gonna go into now, butGod was really involved in that
particular issue.
And then right after thatwelcome signed that, Hey James,
you know, I'd really like you topay attention to me a little bit
more and some things that areimportant.
I took a CEO job.
(29:56):
That's.
Well, you know, I, I'm not gonnasay that was flesh.
I'm gonna, I'm still gonnabelieve that was God's path.
'cause it all led here, right?
It all led to writing this book.
It all led to 70 plus otherpeople that were so afraid of
being bullied in their life, notby just themselves, but by other
people that they wouldn't writeanything down.
(30:18):
When I interviewed them, theywanted to do a phone interview.
I put all of their stories intothis book in an anonymous way
with some characters that I'veeven had.
I got a really good friend ofmine, did a, a review on it and
he says, there's too manycharacters.
I can't keep track of'em.
I'm like, that's exactly why Iwrote it that way.
(30:40):
So the book is different.
I don't know what yourexperience was, but it is a
little bit different than yournormal business fable or, or
informative 10 Steps to recoverykind of thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's so many things that weget going up on.
(31:00):
I know, right?
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
Catapult.
Yeah.
But it's, I think that for me,the main lesson in all of that
is that God doesn't wasteanything that happens in our
lives.
No.
You can take.
All of those things that seem sotraumatic to us and turn them
(31:24):
into good.
Yeah.
And honestly, there's just a lotof bullies out there.
And Yeah, and I, I've talkedabout this a couple of times
lately'cause it's been reallyheavy on my heart.
In fact, my last episode wasjust about how.
There's two sides to everything.
I, it doesn't matter what theissue is today.
There are people just at eachother, and the reality is, is
(31:46):
there might be a little bit oftruth on both sides.
Both sides.
And then I feel like God hasstepped back and just said, you
know, why don't we stopbickering over who's right.
Just learn to be nice to eachother and stop being such
bullies about it.
I feel like it's almost a testto see if we can just step back
(32:07):
and, and let him be in controland trust him with the things.
There was only, there was onlyone human in the entire, and I
say human in the entire Bible.
That was the wisest man thatever lived or ever will, and his
name was Solomon.
And Solomon, when presented withtwo mothers who were living
(32:27):
together, which is kind of adifferent story altogether with
that stuff, but they come in bydifferent fathers with a baby
that one of them laid on and putit to rest.
And they're fighting over it.
And Solomon says, get me aknife.
Right?
And the real mother, would sheplease stand up?
(32:50):
She can have it.
I don't want my baby killed.
You know?
And, and that's what, that'swhat's happening in our, in our
political world today.
I mean, I.
I used to not be able to talkabout this kind of stuff because
of my appointment, but now I'mretired so I can let a little
bit out of what I think aboutthis.
And I really think that you areon track, that there's truth on
(33:12):
both sides and that, and thechallenges is sifting through
all of the voices.
There's too many voices andthey're all bullies.
They're all bullies.
And do you know the suicide ratenow is off the charts?
It's not just veterans.
It's because the world is sogrim, dark, and where did trust
(33:37):
go?
Right.
Where is it?
Because who do you trust?
What do you trust?
Do you trust this media?
Do you trust that media to trustthis politician, that
politician?
They both say the same badthings about each other, so
what's true?
This, this, that's true.
That is true.
I, and I hate that You got me toshow my taped up old, worn out.
(34:01):
Well, I wish I had my Bible so Icould show, but, and that's
exactly my point is everybody isgrasping to find out, you know,
which side is true.
And it's like, it, it doesn'treally matter.
Yeah.
The only thing that matters iswhat, what our, the word.
Yeah.
Jesus Christ says, yeah.
(34:22):
And who to go back to thatchemical thing.
Who created those chemicals?
Yeah.
So they were created for good.
Yes.
So if you're, if you're, ifyou're in this boat of thinking
about retirement, it's good tohave a little bit of nervousness
right now.
That's a acute.
That tension is good, but don'tlet it repeat itself over time
(34:46):
because it doesn't have to bework that stresses us out.
It could be a kitchen drawerthat we haven't gotten to, to
organize.
Right.
That could stress us out, right?
Yes.
So the, the, the beauty of thisis, is, and then I have this in
a book.
It's called A Presence Pause.
It's very simple.
The first thing that you need todo is when that is starting up
(35:08):
to determine if this is.
It, it is acute when it firststarts, but as it repeats, it
adds up.
So first thing is what'shappening in my body?
Scan senses, am I tense in my,if you look at my jaw, you, you
might think this is like babysteps, but I'm telling you, this
is scientifically proven thatour bodies, God has created us
(35:31):
wonderfully crafted to be ableto bear any temptation that
comes our way.
And that worry is a sin and thatanybody that worries about
anything ain't gonna get itanywhere, any time.
And he tells us to pray for thisday, our daily bread.
Yes.
Right.
Yes.
(35:51):
When we're too worried abouttomorrow or what happened before
that, that's building upcortisol.
Cortisol builds up inflammation.
Inflammation builds up blockagesor skin rashes is, or bumps or
loss of hair, you name it.
Inflammation is the enemy to ourfleshly body and our existence
(36:16):
here in this.
Life, and I learned thatfirsthand.
The doctor came in and told me,you have hundreds of clots in
your lungs, your leg.
You have a DVT behind your knee,and you have minutes to live.
Minutes, minutes, minutes.
(36:36):
And yet here you are.
Forget about retirement, dude.
Right?
You got minutes.
Wow.
Yeah, talk about a wake up call.
Yeah.
So you, you think about thecensus and then you get curious
about it.
What, what, what about this is,what about this is getting my
attention.
Why is it getting my attentionreal quick?
(36:57):
Right.
This happens fast and then veryimportant, you have to analyze
your alignment with your values,your faith, your belief.
Do you, is it integrity?
Is it, is this an integrityissue?
Is that why this is bugging me?
Aha.
Aha.
I know how to address this nowbecause I know that I'm sitting
(37:18):
in a bit of a judgment seat herebecause of my values.
In their behavior.
They don't align.
Yeah.
But it's not my place to judgethat.
I'm not gonna call them.
Devil because they don't do whatI want'em to do, even though
that's what we're seeing a lotof in these multiple voices.
Right.
And then the next part is to beable to name your emotions.
(37:41):
Do you know that most peopleright now probably know like Six
emotion works?
Yeah.
Just try it.
Just write down on a piece ofpaper right now, how many
emotion words do I know?
And I guarantee you a couple ofthem that you write down if
you're a real overachiever areprobably not emotion words.
So find yourself one of thoseemotion wheels that the
(38:03):
psychologist had put together.
Have it on your desk, and whenthis is happening, name them.
Because they will help yourealize a previous situation or
something that you can tie thisexperience that you're going
through right now into to betterwin that day.
Well, and isn't there one, uh,an emotion wheel that's actually
(38:26):
tied to scripture?
Yes.
That's, that's, yeah.
There's a, there's just abillion of'em out there, and,
and, and it's really remarkableto see how many words there are
and that.
Yeah, that's the one that I'vebeen feeling that it's not
anger.
I've been feeling that.
Yeah, that's, I will try andfind that and, and, uh, put a
(38:49):
link to it in the show notes.
'cause I think that that'sawesome.
That's really huge.
You know, it's funny becauseI've been working with my coach
and, we've been working throughhatred.
Which is really hard for me.
And we've talked about the factthat it's like, I don't hate
anybody.
And she's like, well, theworld's told you that you
shouldn't as a good Christian,but there's something from way
(39:10):
back that's lingering there thatYeah.
That you're not letting go of.
And we're working through it andI think, I think I might be
letting go of it, but Yeah.
But that too adds to thatinflammation and that stress in
our bodies, even when we're notaware.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
This, we can go for a long timehere.
I know, I know.
(39:30):
It's awesome.
But we've, we've gone probablylong enough for most listeners.
But before we go, and I, I'mjust so grateful to have this
conversation, but before we go,if there's someone listening and
they're like, I am fascinatedwith this concept and I wanna
learn more, how can they findyou and connect with you?
The website is www dot beholdone, the number.com.
(39:53):
And I named my practice behold,because there are 1200
scriptures in the Bible.
And what happens after Johnsaid, behold the lamb of God.
That takes away the sense of theearth.
I mean, that's what coaching'sall about is that moment where
you really have that aha and itchanges your life.
So that's kind of what that'sall about.
(40:14):
And then my email is the exactsame thing.
James Ziegler, Z-E-I-G-L-E-R, atbehold one.com.
And.
True, authentic, opening.
If you're a veteran or you'resomebody else, you're struggling
with thoughts of suicide orsomething's really difficult for
you and you just wanna reach outto somebody, here's my number, 9
(40:37):
0 6 8 6 9 1 4 8 0.
Just send me a text.
We're good to go.
That is so generous of you toput that out there for folks.
It's tragic.
What our veterans are goingthrough in, in the world today.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, I thank you for the workthat you have done and, and are
(40:57):
doing to help combat that, so Iappreciate that very much.
Yeah.
So, before we sign off, we'vetalked about a lot of things,
but if folks we're gonnaremember just one thing from
this conversation, what wouldyou want them to walk away with?
God is within you.
He promised that he would bewith you in you, and you in him.
(41:24):
You are not far from the answersbecause they're in you and he's
there and he's got the answersand the world doesn't.
Have those answers when it comesto these kinds of really
important life decisions.
Yeah.
And it's not about what he isgot down the road.
(41:45):
It's about this day, this dayI'm talking to myself and God
and my bully about how do Iretire?
Yeah.
And yeah, there's someprojection that you gotta do,
but really God is within you.
And those answers are rightthere too.
If I might, I would like to addonto that what I always tell
(42:07):
people, and that is that we needto be in the word, we need to be
in prayer, and we need to shutthe noise from the world down
and listen to him.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, because I don't, I, I feelthat if, you know, there are
some people that are out thereand they're praying all the
time.
And there are others that are inthe word all the time, and there
(42:29):
are others that are like, yeah,I just talked to him all day
long.
But I think if we, if we don'tmesh those three, we could
easily get distracted and pulledin a direction that isn't
necessarily.
Yeah.
Context is, yeah, exactly.
I'm not a, I'm not aself-promoting kind of guy, but
if you go to the website,there's a popup tells you about
the book.
(42:49):
You can get it that way.
Okay.
Yeah.
I just, I don't like that stuff.
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
But, but I also believe and knowthat, God will get it to the
people who need it.
And I believe exactly peoplethat are listening to this.
If someone's listening and itmay not be for you.
But you're thinking of somebodyelse.
Yeah.
We ask that you share it withthem because this is, this is
(43:09):
important stuff.
Yeah.
Vona thank you for having me.
I was gonna say, I think that'sthinks a perfect way to end this
conversation.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
James, thanks for thisconversation.
I loved it.
Mm-hmm.
And anybody that's listening, Ijust wanna thank you for, for
stopping by today.
This, this has been a funconversation, but it's an
important conversation and Ijust ask that you go, you be
(43:31):
blessed, you engage your faith.
Mm-hmm.
Live your more as you eitherlive in or work towards your
courageous retirement.
I recently overheard a conversation between
(00:02):
a woman and her friend, and itreally struck me what she said,
and it really reinforced all ofwhat we're doing here.
But she was talking aboutretirement and she had
apparently recently retired, andshe said the hardest part was
making the decision to retire.
Today I have a guest, JamesZiegler, and we are going to
(00:26):
talk about that and, and theprocess that we go through in
making that decision how we getthere, and maybe some of the
conversations that we have withourself as to whether it's a
good idea or not.
So I hope you'll join us forthis engaging conversation, Do
you fear?
What lies beyond retirement?
What if it's a gateway to a lifefilled with purpose, meaning,
(00:48):
and adventure rather than anend?
Discover peace and fulfillmentas you boldly enter this new
chapter in CourageousRetirement, a Christian podcast.
I'm your host, author, and coachVona Johnson.
Let's get started.
James.
Welcome.
I am so excited to have you heretoday.
This, I've been really lookingforward to this ever since we
(01:10):
met recently.
It's good to have you here.
It's great to be here and it'sawesome that we prayed before we
even started.
I love it.
Always.
Always.
Yeah.
I just hate to walk into anyconversation like this without
inviting the Lord to guide theconversation because of course,
he knows exactly what needs tobe said during this episode.
(01:31):
Right.
Amen.
Yeah.
Right.
Anyway, you have a, a story.
You have many stories.
We visited a week before last,and there's just so many things
and, and we don't have timetoday to go over all of those.
Fortunately, you've documentedthose in your book, and we'll
talk about that later.
(01:52):
But I want to focus on you areretired from a really
illustrious career.
I mean, you, I would, from ourconversation, I would say you
pretty much hit the pinnacle ofwhere you could be in the Yeah.
In the Vet Veterans Affairs, inthe federal government.
Yeah.
So let's start there.
Tell us a little bit about whatthat career looked like before
(02:14):
you made the decision to retire.
Yeah.
Well, once upon a time I was inthe Air Force and did that for
10 and a half years, and I wasan enlisted person.
And I did.
Easy jobs, pretty much, youknow, I guarded aircraft a
little bit and that was a kindof a part-time job.
But then there was a riff, whichis very similar to what's going
(02:35):
on today.
And, uh, president Clinton anduh, vice President Gore drew
down the military forces and Iessentially lost my job.
So I went back to school and Ibecame a speech pathologist and,
really.
It just felt such great, rewardin helping people, get better
after strokes and TBIs andlittle children that were having
(02:58):
difficulties reading, et cetera.
Then a friend of mine called mewhen I called him and said I
needed a reference.
And, I'm ready to be the CEO ofa neurocognitive center in
Detroit near my sister.
And he said, why do you wannalive in Detroit?
And I'm like,'cause it's inMichigan and I like Michigan and
that's where my sister is.
And he says, you're a veteran,right?
You should apply for this job inthe va.
(03:21):
We have a service line chief forphysical medicine and
rehabilitation.
I'm like.
Huh, that sounds kind of cool.
And that's only 80 miles fromwhere we live right now.
And you'll pay me to move.
Okay.
So it took the government ninemonths to get me in, but I did
get in.
And then six years into that jobI started to drink the Kool-Aid
(03:44):
a little bit and felt what itfelt like to have golden
handcuffs.
So I started the leadershipjourney and I skyrocketed.
I.
Through that journey all the wayto CEO and a presidential
appointment, uh, careerappointment as senior executive
service member and a VA medicalcenter, director.
(04:05):
And it, it was fast, it wasfurious.
It was awesome.
It was fearsome.
It taught me an awful lot and.
When I look back sometimes Ithink that, you know, God wasn't
with me, but God was with me inso many different ways and uh,
led to this.
(04:26):
Yeah, it's not an illustriousretirement, but it's a
flourishing one.
And, uh, I can talk more aboutthat.
Yeah.
Before you go there though, Iwanna hit pause on that.
We see it all the time wheresomeone gets into that career,
I, I experienced it myself.
We get into it, we start raisingwithin the organization and we
(04:49):
get sucked into.
I love how you said, you know, Idrank the Kool-Aid.
We get sucked into this ideathat we're all, that we Yeah.
All of that.
And a bag of chips.
Right?
Right.
And it's.
It's so intoxicating.
Yeah.
To, to see people look to us foradvice and sometimes there's,
(05:11):
there's that point at which allof a sudden we realize, and I
just, yeah.
I don't, I don't wanna namenames, but I've seen it even in
our government mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Here in South Dakota wherepeople who I've admired and
trusted all of a sudden werelike.
Whoa, what happened?
Who is, who is that?
(05:33):
And what happened?
And it's, it's that power thatjust kind of gets within us and
just kind of seeps out.
So as, as Christians, we need toreally be plugged in and ready
before that opportunity comesour way, or, or we can, we can
veer off the path.
Would you agree?
(05:53):
Absolutely.
When, when I started this.
I got my first office, right?
This is my first executiveoffice.
My wife bought me that sign andit says, integrity and it has
two paths.
And integrity is the wisdom ofknowing which path to take.
And she said, I know that youwill always operate with this
(06:17):
because that's what you are.
And I'm like, that, that's,that's amazing that you see that
in me.
That's one of the most.
Important things my wife couldever say to me.
And, um, that drove me and alsodrove me and I responded
differently.
When you sit at the end of thattable, sometimes you see
(06:40):
integrity being revealed.
I talk about this in a book alittle bit, that integrity can
be revealed that it's good andit can also be revealed that you
don't have any.
Or you don't respect it.
And as a leader at the end ofthe table, when people reveal
that they don't have integrity,and you're desperately trying to
(07:02):
instill that in a culture thatis the danger zone, oh, and
integrity is also one of themost important.
Aspects that I strive to live inand what's coming up for me is
when I talk about courageousretirement, and we're gonna get
into this soon, but I.
(07:24):
I, I think it's really importantto make the point that when
we're going through thatdecision process, one of the
decisions is when's the righttime?
Yeah.
And have, have I prepared notjust myself, but my people.
Yeah.
And I talk about finishing well,and I think it's really
important that as we'repreparing to retire, if we have
(07:47):
the opportunity to help, atleast.
Steer the people who are hiringtowards someone who will lead
well.
You know, to find that person,whether, you know, it's like
prepare that person with theleadership skills and the
integrity and, and to help themrealize that the power that
they're stepping into isn't fortheir good.
It's for the good of theorganization.
(08:08):
Mm-hmm.
Do you, do you agree with that?
Can you expand that?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's a big one.
How many people do you know thatyou absolutely revere?
That when they chose to retire,they knew 10 years before they
were gonna retire, they weregonna retire and they had$5
million in the bank and they hadtheir second home on the lake
(08:29):
and they had their mortgage paidoff and they had pizza ordered
for the retirement party andeverybody showed up and it was a
real great day.
I bet that percentage of peopleis pretty low.
Yeah, I, nobody that I know of,I didn't, I didn't get a
retirement party.
I quit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So my, my story's a bit of arollercoaster, and I think that
(08:52):
people that are listening thatare really leaning in towards
those golden types of years,that it's different for
everyone.
It's a very unique experience,and you really do have to
approach it.
That's what I really like aboutyour mantra, is that you gotta
approach this with courage.
You do, you do.
And not your courage.
(09:13):
Approach this with the courageof the Lord and the wisdom and
guidance and, and watch forthose little things that
seemingly are not meaningful,but they really are.
I have a funny story about that.
Go for it.
Let's hear it.
Okay, so I retired October 21st,2023.
(09:34):
But in June I sat down on mywife's birthday and I thought,
you know what?
I'm gonna give her a littlepresent here.
I'm gonna kind of tell her aboutretirement.
So I went on this website and Iput in all my information and I
saw what it was and I took thelittle paper home and I showed
her and she's like, oh, that'sgreat.
In July they retired me.
Like I got an email that said,thank you.
(09:57):
Did doing the test trigger thatthey're like, oh, he is ready to
retire.
We gotta, I guess, I guess so.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no.
And I was frantically trying tostop this process of getting
retired when I didn't reallymean it.
I was just testing the waters,you know, riding a
rollercoaster, trying to findout what's it gonna look like,
maybe.
(10:18):
Yeah.
And, um, and then lo and behold,things got much worse.
But that's God's way.
I, I just love how, you know, heknew where it was going.
He knew, and, and that was hisway of starting You to be
prepared to go where he knew thepath was, yeah.
(10:39):
'cause I was nowhere near that.
I had just sat down in a bigleather chair at the end of a
table looking at 70 some peopleevery morning.
There was no way I was leavingthat.
Yeah, that was good Kool-Aid.
Well, and that's just, it wasalso a good way to, to give in,
you know, and, and it'ssomething that I think is really
important about retirement too.
(10:59):
There's a, there's a group, it'scalled Halftime.
And while I was kind of goingthrough the process, I, I
reached out to this halftimeplace because they do coaching
and they sent me a free book.
And I tell you what, that bookwas really something that lit me
up and said, yeah, it's notover.
Retirement sometimes feels likeI'm gonna sit in the backyard
(11:22):
and I'm gonna watch birds andsquirrels, pay some kid to mow
the lawn, you know?
It doesn't have to be that way.
You Yeah.
It doesn't have to be that way.
Well, and I love, I mean, to me,that's why I say it's answering
God's call to more.
It's when he's, he's calling usto use all of the, the
(11:45):
breadcrumbs that he's given usthroughout our lives and our
careers to bring all thosethings that our gifts and our
talents and our skills and ourdesires together to go do.
What it is that we truly lovewith our lives and, and I always
say we need to retire tosomething and not away from
something.
If, if you hate your job, yeah.
(12:07):
There's, I always figurethere's, there's two directions
that's either time to move on,whether you need, you retire or
you go get a different job, or,and this is like the one I think
we miss the most or we stepback.
Look at whether we areperceiving that job from the
wrong perspective.
Are we, are we looking at it asfor what we're getting out of
(12:29):
it?
Mm-hmm.
Or are we looking at it from,what are we putting into it?
Mm-hmm.
Are we glorifying God in thatwork?
Is there a lesson that we needto learn?
Or is there a lesson that weneed to share with someone else
before we leave?
Mm-hmm.
That's maybe why we're stillthere.
And again, you said it,everybody's path is different,
there's not a cookie cutteranswer to it.
(12:49):
Everybody's is different, andthat's why we need to be plugged
in with God and know what he'ssaying about it.
Right?
Yeah.
This is probably the second mostimportant process that you're
ever gonna be involved in, inyour life.
Your next one is your funeral,and you should really show up to
that one.
You know, I mean, honestly, Idon't think there's anything
(13:10):
more important than retirementother than that one.
Uh, I'm gonna put, um, who youselect to be your spouse.
That's a big one too.
This is true, but that's allpart of retirement, you know.
Well, I mean, think about,Stephen Covey.
Begin with the end in mind.
Begin with the end in mind andhandle the big rocks first.
(13:32):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and that's, that goes backto those golden handcuffs.
You, you start being everythingto everyone.
Yeah.
And then you get drained'causeyou don't have it to give to
everyone.
And the one that you, there'stwo that you don't give it to.
(13:56):
Maybe three.
Your family, your, your spouse,and God, and you start putting
those big rocks over to theside, pouring in all the sand
and all the little rocks.
Not to steal from Stephen Covey,but it's a beautiful analogy.
It is.
And you can't get the big rocksback into the barrel.
(14:16):
Right.
So that is, that is kind of whatI did.
But I also, at the same time,and I love the way you said
this, was that.
It's what you put into, notreally what you're getting out
of it.
And I sat in this balancebetween those two things.
And that balance was integrity.
(14:38):
Yeah.
I felt like it would go likethis day to day, minute to
minute.
It didn't, it didn't stay likethis where I was able to just do
a little adjustment.
It was like the Titanic havingto turn it when something would
happen and.
That created a lot of stress,increased the cortisol levels in
(14:58):
my body to the point that Ialmost died.
Tell you about that in a littlebit.
Um, but that also was part ofwhy God had me in June do that
retirement thing, because when Igot to that point where it was
so bad and so toxic that I hadto walk out of a C-suite, I
(15:21):
could.
Because I knew that, at least Iknow that about what the future
holds.
But we didn't know anythingelse.
I mean, I didn't have the fullretirement that I had now, and
it's not much.
I went from hundreds ofthousands of dollars down to
less than a hundred thousanddollars just like that in one
day.
(15:42):
It just all changed.
And that was the day before my60th birthday.
Oh, boom.
Here you go.
But don't you also think thatpart of the handcuffs is this
concept that you can't retireuntil you have massive amounts
of money put aside.
(16:03):
Yeah.
'cause you're gonna need all ofthat and, and in reality.
That's that part where we, wearen't trusting in God when we
think it's up to us to make surea bank account is a certain
level.
Yeah.
I mean,'cause we can adjust ourlifestyle.
We can go get another side gigfor, for income or whatever.
And that for me, my retirementand I, I told you this story a
(16:24):
little bit ago, and anybodythat's listened to very much of
what I do, I've talked about thefact that I agonized over that
decision.
Mm-hmm.
It was so, and I was, I wastelling everybody that would
listen to me and I was like,well, I could do, you know, and
what about, and I told you thestory about how my cousin looked
at me one day and she's like,are you gonna starve to death?
(16:45):
And that was just like this biglight bulb.
Of course I'm not, God hasprovided everything I need, but
I was, I, I was clinging to thisidea that I needed that income.
And our lifestyle has changedvery little, even though I took
early, early retirement andbasically left half of my income
(17:05):
on the table.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and you know what?
That's okay.
I, I didn't agonize over, Ididn't have time to agonize
over.
I don't wish this on anybody tohave to go through it the way
that I did.
Where, but you did survived.
You survived.
It was an emergent decision.
Yeah, it was a mental healthdecision.
It was a spiritual decision thatGod was telling me.
(17:28):
God even told me that throughthe director that hired me.
I hired lots of CEOs, he said,and I never hire anybody without
checking with the big guyupstairs.
Now, this is a guy that camefrom the private sector
billionaire.
Really smart, good leader, andI.
I adored him.
(17:49):
I thought, man, to have a chanceto have this guy as my mentor.
And you know what he told me thefirst meeting that we had
together one-on-one, uh, James,I'm, I'm retiring.
I'm like, you're retiring.
Well, at least we'll get a yearor so together.
He goes, no, I, I mean I, I'mretiring before Christmas this
year.
(18:10):
Here you go.
So he planning, you were, youwere his plan.
Yeah, I was the plan.
He had to get this positionfilled in order to take out and,
you know, enjoy it.
Yeah.
But the agony of that decision,God knew that I wouldn't be able
to handle it and had me test thewaters back there in June.
(18:32):
Yeah.
To have that competence, that atleast I can step into this
knowing.
That.
And then when we got here, it'sanother just amazing story that
in 2017 I had some knee surgery,and as a veteran, whenever you
have medical care that wasrelated to your service, you
(18:53):
receive benefits if you applyfor them, et cetera.
Well, long story short, I had asupervisor that, um, abused me
for a year, uh, from behind andrubbed himself.
My back while I typed a messagefor him once a week, and I never
told anybody.
Fast forward to that kneesurgery and a veteran services
(19:15):
officer asked me if I'd everexperienced military sexual
trauma, and for the first timein 25 years, I said yes, and I
spiraled immediately.
It was, it was awfulness.
I, I saw so many things in mylife that were related to.
What that is.
At the exact same time, MattLauer was getting the boot and
the Me Too movement was comingon and I was just deluged with
(19:38):
media and me, and it wasoverwhelming.
It took nine years for thefederal government to find that
claim.
They found that claim when myfeet hit ground in Wisconsin
without a house living in mydaughter's basement, retired,
wondering what in the world isgonna happen to us now?
(20:01):
A really good friend of mine,Jerry Howard, has, has talked
about your failure resume.
And I'll tell you what, I had abig, long failure resume at that
time and I also had a bullywithin me that was telling me
all these wonderful failuresthat I had had accumulated.
(20:22):
And, um, it took.
Eight months of therapy.
I had therapy for the MT and nowall of a sudden this and three
traumatic brain injuries whilein the service, um, just was a,
a real cacophony of danger.
Um, yet the government found theclaim, called me and said, you
(20:47):
need to go see thispsychologist, get this test
done, this test, this done.
And I.
I received the top benefits thatyou could possibly get as a
disabled veteran.
Wow.
And I always look back and I'mlike, how in the world did a guy
with three TBIs and MST rise tothe point at which he was the
CEO, that that's gotta be God?
(21:11):
'cause it certainly isn't by mystrength, and the retirement
wasn't by my strength either.
And I think, I think God reallyknows that about me, and you
might know that about peoplethat are listening too.
And it's, if you are in thatplace, I highly encourage you to
lean into that, ask God aboutit.
Right?
(21:31):
Because it's not really aboutthe retirement and what it will
be like and how much it willmake and all of that stuff.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
It's really about what you'regonna be able to give when you
have this extra time.
Right.
How many times you look down atyour planner in the day and you
go, I don't have time to go tothe bathroom.
(21:51):
Oh, I don't have that problem.
I get busy and forget, but I,that's, and to me that's the
best part of saying yes toretirement and answering God's
call to more.
Yeah.
Is that we get to, there's moreflexibility in making sure we
get the rocks in first.
(22:12):
You know, I honestly do not knowhow I got to work at eight
o'clock every morning for 30years.
I just, you know, because I, Istart caffeine and no sleep.
I don't drink caffeine.
But I now know it was because.
I didn't have an exerciseroutine.
(22:33):
I didn't, I didn't start everyday in the word, you know, I'd
filter it in when I could.
I, it was the sand I'd put it inwhere I could, you know?
Mm.
And now that I start with thosethings that are the big rocks
and fill in with the rest, it'samazing where God has taken the
path.
He's using the bits and piecesof my life and allowing me to.
(22:55):
Feed into the needs in mycommunity.
And, and that's really awesome.
And it, what's really cool is Iwas looking into your book some
Hmm.
And, and I love that you usedsome of the key words that I use
all the time.
My, my words are peace andfulfillment.
Yeah.
And I think when we, when we getour retirement right.
(23:16):
We have the peace of being ableto set that planner aside a
little bit and, and do thethings that are on our heart to
do, but that we can also, thosethings that are on our heart to
do are gonna bring usfulfillment, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
That's such a beautiful thing.
I wanna touch on though we don'thave a lot more time.
(23:39):
You talk about the bully withinand the resilience and I wanna
give the listeners a taste ofwhat they will get if they go
get your book.
And I also wanna know what the,the chemical part of, okay.
The title is.
That just has me so curious.
Yep.
And that, that is truly theroot.
(23:59):
And as we, as we discover thatourselves and we figure out that
it's really not that difficultto actually prevent this from
happening to us as a society.
And that's, that's why I, mymantra is, I, I would love to
reduce bullying one at a time,starting with the one within.
(24:22):
Yeah, and I recognize that I hadone, I've had people point it
out and say, you're a bully.
I'm like, I'm not a bully.
I'm a nice guy.
Are you kidding me?
Yeah.
I may want my way and I may knowthe way, so I'm trying to
convince you about that, butthat's my job, right?
I'm a leader.
I'm supposed to have a visionand a mission and driving and
all that stuff.
(24:43):
But, yeah, so the, the bullywithin is.
Something that can be easilyreframed.
And the way that I say that isthat we have these code words
that we come up with all thetime, right?
And resilience is one of thosecoveted words now, but if you do
a definition search onresilience, and I'm not bashing
(25:05):
anybody who's got that as theirbusiness code.
I'm just saying that when yousay a word, you say what you
say, you mean what you say.
If you don't know what you say.
It very well may be changing themeaning of what you experience.
So resilience at its heart isabout a physical property of a
(25:28):
material.
It goes all the way back to thebattleships and the hulls that
were built on the on the ships.
That's where the word resiliencecomes from.
The phrase, suck it up.
Buttercup comes from a pilotphrase of when you are in GS and
you're about to, to yourcookies, the worst thing you
(25:51):
could do is to blow'em into thatoxygen mask.
Sure.
It's gonna go back all over yourface and yeah, so that's where,
suck it up.
Buttercup came from for thegreater good.
What is that about?
Is it about being resilient oris that about compromising your
integrity and fighting with it?
(26:14):
So really the voice that istalking to you is talking to you
about your values and is reallya helpful voice.
It's not an imposter.
It's not a liar.
It's not the thief.
It's not the devil.
It's really something that'sbeautiful within, and the
reframing is I have written acontract with my bully.
(26:40):
It's a solid contract built onlegal principles that it has a
preamble, it has different partsand all of this stuff.
It's very intentional that when.
The bully says, Hey, you'rethis, you're that.
You're an entrepreneur.
You call yourself that.
I can lean into it and say, Hey,paragraph two A of our contract
(27:03):
says that you and I are gonnatalk about this before you come
up with an accusation.
Cool.
So when would you like to meet?
How about now?
And with my coaching clients,I've actually had them write a
letter to their bully.
It's.
Unbelievably powerful to do.
What do you wanna say to thatbully?
(27:24):
What do you really like aboutthat bully?
What do you admire about them?
Because then you, when youadmire somebody and they're your
friend, they, they can hurt you,but it's, the wounds of a friend
are different than the wounds ofan enemy for sure.
Right?
For sure.
And if you have an understandingwith that friend, they're not
(27:47):
gonna wound you.
You have an understanding, youhave a binding contract.
Reframe it in that regard.
It gives you great peace.
Yeah, because you're not againstyourself anymore.
You're actually a team now.
That's very cool.
What could be bad about that?
No, I love that.
(28:08):
That's so the chemical part isas you have this battle we now
know and have known for manyyears that.
Cortisol, serotonin, oxytocin,those are like some big names,
right?
But it's really simple.
It comes down to is it an acutething or is it a chronic thing?
An acute thing is like, you seea wolf running at you and you
(28:31):
are scared to, you know, eh,it's this thing gonna eat me.
That's good.
That's good cortisol because itbuilds you up.
It gives you the power that somemothers have that, you know,
we've seen them lift cars.
That all comes from that acutemoment of Superman or Superwoman
power.
Yep.
(28:51):
But when you sit in a boardroomor you're in a, in a
dysfunctional relationship, orsomebody is constantly talking
about your sports team as thoughyou are the owner of the team,
and it's like, geez man, it's agame, you know?
But the pressure just keepscoming.
Yeah, that's what happened to mein Christmas Eve in 2022.
(29:15):
I wound up with a pulmonarybilateral widow maker embolism
on both sides of my lungsbecause of chronic, repetitive
injuries from stress.
Yep.
There's a lot about that storythat's, that's in the book that
(29:36):
I'm not gonna go into now, butGod was really involved in that
particular issue.
And then right after thatwelcome signed that, Hey James,
you know, I'd really like you topay attention to me a little bit
more and some things that areimportant.
I took a CEO job.
(29:56):
That's.
Well, you know, I, I'm not gonnasay that was flesh.
I'm gonna, I'm still gonnabelieve that was God's path.
'cause it all led here, right?
It all led to writing this book.
It all led to 70 plus otherpeople that were so afraid of
being bullied in their life, notby just themselves, but by other
people that they wouldn't writeanything down.
(30:18):
When I interviewed them, theywanted to do a phone interview.
I put all of their stories intothis book in an anonymous way
with some characters that I'veeven had.
I got a really good friend ofmine, did a, a review on it and
he says, there's too manycharacters.
I can't keep track of'em.
I'm like, that's exactly why Iwrote it that way.
(30:40):
So the book is different.
I don't know what yourexperience was, but it is a
little bit different than yournormal business fable or, or
informative 10 Steps to recoverykind of thing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's so many things that weget going up on.
(31:00):
I know, right?
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
Catapult.
Yeah.
But it's, I think that for me,the main lesson in all of that
is that God doesn't wasteanything that happens in our
lives.
No.
You can take.
All of those things that seem sotraumatic to us and turn them
(31:24):
into good.
Yeah.
And honestly, there's just a lotof bullies out there.
And Yeah, and I, I've talkedabout this a couple of times
lately'cause it's been reallyheavy on my heart.
In fact, my last episode wasjust about how.
There's two sides to everything.
I, it doesn't matter what theissue is today.
There are people just at eachother, and the reality is, is
(31:46):
there might be a little bit oftruth on both sides.
Both sides.
And then I feel like God hasstepped back and just said, you
know, why don't we stopbickering over who's right.
Just learn to be nice to eachother and stop being such
bullies about it.
I feel like it's almost a testto see if we can just step back
(32:07):
and, and let him be in controland trust him with the things.
There was only, there was onlyone human in the entire, and I
say human in the entire Bible.
That was the wisest man thatever lived or ever will, and his
name was Solomon.
And Solomon, when presented withtwo mothers who were living
(32:27):
together, which is kind of adifferent story altogether with
that stuff, but they come in bydifferent fathers with a baby
that one of them laid on and putit to rest.
And they're fighting over it.
And Solomon says, get me aknife.
Right?
And the real mother, would sheplease stand up?
(32:50):
She can have it.
I don't want my baby killed.
You know?
And, and that's what, that'swhat's happening in our, in our
political world today.
I mean, I.
I used to not be able to talkabout this kind of stuff because
of my appointment, but now I'mretired so I can let a little
bit out of what I think aboutthis.
And I really think that you areon track, that there's truth on
(33:12):
both sides and that, and thechallenges is sifting through
all of the voices.
There's too many voices andthey're all bullies.
They're all bullies.
And do you know the suicide ratenow is off the charts?
It's not just veterans.
It's because the world is sogrim, dark, and where did trust
(33:37):
go?
Right.
Where is it?
Because who do you trust?
What do you trust?
Do you trust this media?
Do you trust that media to trustthis politician, that
politician?
They both say the same badthings about each other, so
what's true?
This, this, that's true.
That is true.
I, and I hate that You got me toshow my taped up old, worn out.
(34:01):
Well, I wish I had my Bible so Icould show, but, and that's
exactly my point is everybody isgrasping to find out, you know,
which side is true.
And it's like, it, it doesn'treally matter.
Yeah.
The only thing that matters iswhat, what our, the word.
Yeah.
Jesus Christ says, yeah.
(34:22):
And who to go back to thatchemical thing.
Who created those chemicals?
Yeah.
So they were created for good.
Yes.
So if you're, if you're, ifyou're in this boat of thinking
about retirement, it's good tohave a little bit of nervousness
right now.
That's a acute.
That tension is good, but don'tlet it repeat itself over time
(34:46):
because it doesn't have to bework that stresses us out.
It could be a kitchen drawerthat we haven't gotten to, to
organize.
Right.
That could stress us out, right?
Yes.
So the, the, the beauty of thisis, is, and then I have this in
a book.
It's called A Presence Pause.
It's very simple.
The first thing that you need todo is when that is starting up
(35:08):
to determine if this is.
It, it is acute when it firststarts, but as it repeats, it
adds up.
So first thing is what'shappening in my body?
Scan senses, am I tense in my,if you look at my jaw, you, you
might think this is like babysteps, but I'm telling you, this
is scientifically proven thatour bodies, God has created us
(35:31):
wonderfully crafted to be ableto bear any temptation that
comes our way.
And that worry is a sin and thatanybody that worries about
anything ain't gonna get itanywhere, any time.
And he tells us to pray for thisday, our daily bread.
Yes.
Right.
Yes.
(35:51):
When we're too worried abouttomorrow or what happened before
that, that's building upcortisol.
Cortisol builds up inflammation.
Inflammation builds up blockagesor skin rashes is, or bumps or
loss of hair, you name it.
Inflammation is the enemy to ourfleshly body and our existence
(36:16):
here in this.
Life, and I learned thatfirsthand.
The doctor came in and told me,you have hundreds of clots in
your lungs, your leg.
You have a DVT behind your knee,and you have minutes to live.
Minutes, minutes, minutes.
(36:36):
And yet here you are.
Forget about retirement, dude.
Right?
You got minutes.
Wow.
Yeah, talk about a wake up call.
Yeah.
So you, you think about thecensus and then you get curious
about it.
What, what, what about this is,what about this is getting my
attention.
Why is it getting my attentionreal quick?
(36:57):
Right.
This happens fast and then veryimportant, you have to analyze
your alignment with your values,your faith, your belief.
Do you, is it integrity?
Is it, is this an integrityissue?
Is that why this is bugging me?
Aha.
Aha.
I know how to address this nowbecause I know that I'm sitting
(37:18):
in a bit of a judgment seat herebecause of my values.
In their behavior.
They don't align.
Yeah.
But it's not my place to judgethat.
I'm not gonna call them.
Devil because they don't do whatI want'em to do, even though
that's what we're seeing a lotof in these multiple voices.
Right.
And then the next part is to beable to name your emotions.
(37:41):
Do you know that most peopleright now probably know like Six
emotion works?
Yeah.
Just try it.
Just write down on a piece ofpaper right now, how many
emotion words do I know?
And I guarantee you a couple ofthem that you write down if
you're a real overachiever areprobably not emotion words.
So find yourself one of thoseemotion wheels that the
(38:03):
psychologist had put together.
Have it on your desk, and whenthis is happening, name them.
Because they will help yourealize a previous situation or
something that you can tie thisexperience that you're going
through right now into to betterwin that day.
Well, and isn't there one, uh,an emotion wheel that's actually
(38:26):
tied to scripture?
Yes.
That's, that's, yeah.
There's a, there's just abillion of'em out there, and,
and, and it's really remarkableto see how many words there are
and that.
Yeah, that's the one that I'vebeen feeling that it's not
anger.
I've been feeling that.
Yeah, that's, I will try andfind that and, and, uh, put a
(38:49):
link to it in the show notes.
'cause I think that that'sawesome.
That's really huge.
You know, it's funny becauseI've been working with my coach
and, we've been working throughhatred.
Which is really hard for me.
And we've talked about the factthat it's like, I don't hate
anybody.
And she's like, well, theworld's told you that you
shouldn't as a good Christian,but there's something from way
(39:10):
back that's lingering there thatYeah.
That you're not letting go of.
And we're working through it andI think, I think I might be
letting go of it, but Yeah.
But that too adds to thatinflammation and that stress in
our bodies, even when we're notaware.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Wow.
This, we can go for a long timehere.
I know, I know.
(39:30):
It's awesome.
But we've, we've gone probablylong enough for most listeners.
But before we go, and I, I'mjust so grateful to have this
conversation, but before we go,if there's someone listening and
they're like, I am fascinatedwith this concept and I wanna
learn more, how can they findyou and connect with you?
The website is www dot beholdone, the number.com.
(39:53):
And I named my practice behold,because there are 1200
scriptures in the Bible.
And what happens after Johnsaid, behold the lamb of God.
That takes away the sense of theearth.
I mean, that's what coaching'sall about is that moment where
you really have that aha and itchanges your life.
So that's kind of what that'sall about.
(40:14):
And then my email is the exactsame thing.
James Ziegler, Z-E-I-G-L-E-R, atbehold one.com.
And.
True, authentic, opening.
If you're a veteran or you'resomebody else, you're struggling
with thoughts of suicide orsomething's really difficult for
you and you just wanna reach outto somebody, here's my number, 9
(40:37):
0 6 8 6 9 1 4 8 0.
Just send me a text.
We're good to go.
That is so generous of you toput that out there for folks.
It's tragic.
What our veterans are goingthrough in, in the world today.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, I thank you for the workthat you have done and, and are
(40:57):
doing to help combat that, so Iappreciate that very much.
Yeah.
So, before we sign off, we'vetalked about a lot of things,
but if folks we're gonnaremember just one thing from
this conversation, what wouldyou want them to walk away with?
God is within you.
He promised that he would bewith you in you, and you in him.
(41:24):
You are not far from the answersbecause they're in you and he's
there and he's got the answersand the world doesn't.
Have those answers when it comesto these kinds of really
important life decisions.
Yeah.
And it's not about what he isgot down the road.
(41:45):
It's about this day, this dayI'm talking to myself and God
and my bully about how do Iretire?
Yeah.
And yeah, there's someprojection that you gotta do,
but really God is within you.
And those answers are rightthere too.
If I might, I would like to addonto that what I always tell
(42:07):
people, and that is that we needto be in the word, we need to be
in prayer, and we need to shutthe noise from the world down
and listen to him.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, because I don't, I, I feelthat if, you know, there are
some people that are out thereand they're praying all the
time.
And there are others that are inthe word all the time, and there
(42:29):
are others that are like, yeah,I just talked to him all day
long.
But I think if we, if we don'tmesh those three, we could
easily get distracted and pulledin a direction that isn't
necessarily.
Yeah.
Context is, yeah, exactly.
I'm not a, I'm not aself-promoting kind of guy, but
if you go to the website,there's a popup tells you about
the book.
(42:49):
You can get it that way.
Okay.
Yeah.
I just, I don't like that stuff.
I'm with you.
I'm with you.
But, but I also believe and knowthat, God will get it to the
people who need it.
And I believe exactly peoplethat are listening to this.
If someone's listening and itmay not be for you.
But you're thinking of somebodyelse.
Yeah.
We ask that you share it withthem because this is, this is
(43:09):
important stuff.
Yeah.
Vona thank you for having me.
I was gonna say, I think that'sthinks a perfect way to end this
conversation.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
James, thanks for thisconversation.
I loved it.
Mm-hmm.
And anybody that's listening, Ijust wanna thank you for, for
stopping by today.
This, this has been a funconversation, but it's an
important conversation and Ijust ask that you go, you be
(43:31):
blessed, you engage your faith.
Mm-hmm.
Live your more as you eitherlive in or work towards your
courageous retirement.
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