September 11, 2025 • 39 mins
Living with or caring for someone with dementia is one of life’s hardest journeys—but also one filled with moments of unexpected grace. In this episode of 'Courageous Retirement,' host Vona Johnson sits down with chaplain Ben Boland to share stories of faith, love, and loss after both recently walking with their fathers through dementia.
Together, they discuss:
✅ Recognizing early signs of dementia
✅ Finding peace and strength as a caregiver
✅ Why Christians view suffering, life, and death differently than the world
✅ The comfort of knowing our value is in God, not our abilities
Whether you are caregiving, grieving, or walking alongside someone with dementia, this heartfelt conversation offers encouragement and hope.
00:00 Introduction to Dementia
00:18 Meet the Guest: Ben Boland
00:48 Courageous Retirement Podcast
01:04 Personal Stories and Experiences
02:03 Challenges Faced by Dementia Patients
05:31 Recognizing Early Signs of Dementia
11:38 The Importance of Family Support
15:28 Self-Care for Caregivers
18:08 Ben Boland's Journey
19:25 Bible College Beginnings
20:07 Passion for Elderly Care
20:26 Finding Resources and Connections
21:09 The Christian Perspective on Euthanasia
25:58 Faith and Dementia
29:26 Personal Reflections on Faith
30:30 Concluding Thoughts and Reflections
34:45 A Personal Loss and Reflection
35:51 The Purpose of Prayer
38:29 Final Thoughts on Dementia and Faith
📌 Subscribe for more episodes of Courageous Retirement and discover how to finish well and live your MORE with God at the center.
#DementiaCare #FaithInDementia #courageousretirement
Quotes from the show:
"We are created by God, and wherever we are alive, we are called to be valued there." Ben Boland
"Becoming a Christian is not simply a cognitive exercise. It's a work of God, and spirit speaks to spirit, and God saves people living with dementia and...
Praise the Lord!" Ben Boland
" People living with dementia are loved by God and we are called to love them too." Ben Boland
Scripture:
Always be joyful. Never stop praying. Be thankful in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you who belong to Christ Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 NLT
Connect with Ben: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rev-ben-boland-b4572a108
Order Ben's book titled 'Priceless People: Loving Older People and People Living with Dementia'
https://amzn.to/3JUZW4p
I'd love to hear from you! Send me a text message!
Thank you for stopping by today! Remember to Engage Your Faith and Live Your More as you reap the benefits of Courageous Retirement!
To watch the video, check out my YouTube Channel!
Learn more about the show, author Vona Johnson, and more at vonajohnson.com!
Schedule a free 15 minute Your Path to More call with Vona.
Join ClubMore @ clubmore.live
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vona Johnson (00:00):
There are an estimated 55 million people
(00:03):
throughout the world that havedementia as of 2020.
That number continues to climb.
It's also estimated that.
50% of the population, 85 andolder will experience some form
of dementia.
This is a big thing today.
My special guest, Ben Boland,who is a chaplain that works
with elders, joins me and we'regonna talk specifically about
(00:25):
dementia.
Now, this is not a scientificconversation.
This is a heartfelt conversationabout two adults who have
experienced dementia firsthandwith someone that they love.
It's real, it's raw and it's animportant conversation to have.
I hope you'll join us.
Speaker (00:41):
Do you fear?
What lies beyond retirement?
What if it's a gateway to a lifefilled with purpose, meaning,
and adventure rather than anend?
Discover peace and fulfillmentas you boldly enter this new
chapter in CourageousRetirement, a Christian podcast.
I'm your host, author, and coachVNA Johnson.
Let's get started.
Vona Johnson (01:01):
Today we have a really special episode of
Courageous Retirement.
We wanna talk about somethingthat is hard to talk about and
that is dementia, and we'llprobably focus almost more on
the end stage of dementia, justbecause that's very close to the
path that both Ben and I are on.
As you will note, as soon as hestarts speaking, he is not from,
(01:26):
from America.
We're just really excited tohave you here with us today.
I appreciate the work that youdo.
And had I not been on thejourney that I've been on these
last couple of years, I don'tknow I ever appreciated how
important this work is, so let'stalk about dementia, but let's
(01:47):
talk about it from a Christian'sperspective of dementia, because
there are all kinds of crazyideas out there on how we should
be responding to this, what'sbecoming to be a very common
occurrence in our world today.
Ben Boland (02:03):
Yeah, dementia's a huge occurrence.
Not only in the western world,but right across the planet.
The largest population of peopleliving with dementia today is in
Asia.
Oh, it's, so, it's both my lifeand v's.
Life very deeply in terms of ourfathers.
But it's a huge issue in the, inthe Australian context, in the
(02:25):
UK context, dementia is thebiggest killer of women.
So it's a huge issue and one Ifear as a Christian that the
church often neglects andforgets
Vona Johnson (02:40):
well.
And it's easy to do because oncethat individual gets more
advanced in their dementia,they're not in the pew every
Sunday because they, you know,unless they've got someone to
bring them there, they aren'tgonna be able to get there on
their own.
(03:00):
And so it's, it's kind of almostthat out of sight, out of mind
context.
Is it not?
Ben Boland (03:07):
Very much so.
My dad has been at the samechurch for longer than I've been
alive, so 47 years or something.
Mm-hmm.
Um, served on almost every roleother than the singing team
preaching eldership, et cetera,et cetera.
But I was there last weekendseeing mom.
My dad's just died.
(03:28):
Just for context for listeners.
And was doing some training atthat church around dementia, and
the minister kept referring tohim by his long form name as
opposed to what everybody knewabout as Bob because the
minister's been there for twoyears, but he really not met
dad.
Vona Johnson (03:46):
Yeah.
Ben Boland (03:48):
And if you've got advanced dementia, you are very,
very unlikely to be attending alocal church.
Travel.
Attention span, cognitionissues, confidence issues are
going to make attending a normalchurch, almost impossible.
Vona Johnson (04:07):
Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up
because I was visiting with afamily member.
My father is I think in yourterminology reading through your
book is it actively dying?
Is that.
A terminology.
He's, he's at the point where,you know, of course we don't
know when he will go home toJesus, but we know just based on
(04:30):
certain things that arehappening in his life that it's,
it's very near.
And talking to a family member,they were like, so what church
will you, will you hold theservices in?
And I said, I plan to do that inmy church.
Only because the church that heattended previously, there's a
different minister there who hadnever had never seen him.
(04:53):
Mm-hmm.
And at least he had attended mychurch with me for a year or two
before he wasn't able to attendanymore.
And that pastor still sees himfairly regularly.
And that, you know, that's mycommunity and I probably,
honestly, I'm going to need thatcommunity more than dad is at
that point.
Ben Boland (05:12):
Yeah.
And I'm really excited that yourpastor has been seeing your dad.
Yeah.
And engaging with him.
Vona Johnson (05:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So let's, I mean, boy did wejust jump right in?
We went straight to the, the,the heart of it.
Um, and there are more thingsthat I would like to explore
there, but let's talk let's backit up a ways and, and talk about
those.
Those more early stages when wemaybe start noticing the
(05:46):
symptoms in our, you know, ourparents, our neighbors you know,
whoever it is in our life.
Ben Boland (05:52):
What
Vona Johnson (05:52):
kind, pardon me.
Ben Boland (05:55):
Even ourselves.
Vona Johnson (05:56):
Well, yes.
Yes.
What kinds of things.
Should we be watching for?
What kinds of conversationsshould we be having to prepare
for that possible eventuality?
Ben Boland (06:12):
In terms of recognizing dementia, perhaps
the starting point is torecognize that it's not just a
memory disease.
Dementia is a, a range ofdifferent diseases that affect
the mind.
So it affects all kinds ofthings that are affected by the
moment.
Spatial awareness.
(06:33):
So for dad, one of the earlysigns was that dad, who, Bob,
who never got lost ever Yeah.
Suddenly got lost.
Now I can get lost in a wetpaper bag.
So if, if I suddenly got lost,it wouldn't be a sign of
dementia because I've always gotlost.
Um.
(06:53):
Dad who was an engineer, mathsstarted to be getting
problematic.
So it can be those things.
Personality changes.
It can be memory loss, but weneed to remember that some level
of cognitively slowing is normalfor aging, but dementia is not.
(07:15):
And part of it in terms ofdiagnosis is being good about
seeing the doctor.
Um, and catching up with himregular
Vona Johnson (07:23):
and, and being honest when you are with the
doctor, right?
Ben Boland (07:28):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
But I'm fine.
I have no problems at all.
Vona Johnson (07:34):
My, my dad literally, I such a joy, you
know, even at this very endstage.
You know, I can ask him.
Do you need anything?
I'm fine.
I'm fine.
Do you have any pain?
I'm good.
Don't worry about it.
You know, he just doesn't wannabother anybody and it's like, it
you, it's okay.
It's okay not to be okay.
I've literally said that to him,but he just he.
(07:58):
He's a person that knows so manypeople, but early on he would
not be able to retain names.
Mm-hmm.
And so, so everyone was partnerbuddy, you know, usually it was
partner or with kids it would beyou are the boss or, I mean, he
just, you know, he was alwaysjust had some sort of name and
(08:19):
for me.
You know, of course after weknew that, that he, he, he was
already in the memory unit atthe home, but one of the most
difficult days was the day.
And we literally were on our wayhome from church and he was in
the back seat and my husband andI were visiting in the front
seat.
It was only, you know, just ashort ride.
And pretty soon he said, ma'am,ma'am.
(08:44):
That got me, that got me.
And you know, he hasn't calledme by name since I know that he
knows me, but that, that took alittle getting used to.
In fact, I don't think he knows,I don't think he knows who I am
or how I fit into the picture ofhis life.
He knows that I'm important.
He knows that I care for himand, and do the things for him.
(09:07):
Yeah.
I don't know if he thinks I'm asister.
I mean, I, how do we know
Ben Boland (09:12):
Significant female?
Vona Johnson (09:14):
Yeah.
Right.
Ben Boland (09:15):
Yeah.
Vona Johnson (09:16):
Right, right.
Which is okay.
Okay.
Ben Boland (09:19):
It's hard, but it's like,
Vona Johnson (09:23):
yes, I, and it's not as hard as it once was.
I think it's like anything inour life, you know, we, we see
these things and we think, youknow, oh, that's so hard, or
isn't that difficult?
And.
You know, even years ago youknow, this is telling on myself,
but years ago I was a, a youngcollege student that had a child
(09:47):
out of wedlock.
And I, I remember people sayingto me, oh, that had to have been
so hard.
How did you do it?
And my response was.
I, I didn't even think about it.
I just did what I had to do, andthat's kind of where I'm at in
this stage in life.
It's, it's not, I mean, somedays are hard, but most days are
(10:07):
just what I have to do, and Ithink it's, I, as a Christian, I
think it's easier to accept thiswhole process because I trust
the Lord.
I know that God knows where God,I know that that dad is going to
heaven mm-hmm.
(10:28):
That he knows Jesus Christ andaccepted him.
And so I don't have to have thatfear of what, what's next for
him.
And, and I can trust that whatwill happen is exactly what is
intended to happen.
And it may not be about Dad atall.
It may not be about me at all.
It may be about.
(10:49):
The nurse that just came in togive him his meds and the way he
responds to her, right?
Yeah.
Ben Boland (10:55):
Yeah.
Well, the way you respond andthe nurse seeing your love for
your dad.
Vona Johnson (11:02):
Tell me one of the things that I find interesting,
maybe, or, or maybe a littletroubling, is people that I
hear.
And, and even the staff at, atthe home that dad's in, you
know, they're, they're just,they thank me all the time
because I'm very active in hislife and I, you know, they need
(11:22):
something and I, I'll go get itthen, you know, or, or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
And they've commented that thereare family members for other
residents that they never see,that never, you know, they've
just kind of walked away and,and I've heard people say, well,
it doesn't matter.
They don't remember if you'rethere anyway.
How do you respond to that?
Ben Boland (11:46):
Yes.
It's very much an issue inAustralia too.
Vona Johnson (11:50):
Yeah.
Ben Boland (11:51):
Situation a number of years ago working in the
dementia unit and I saw ayounger lady, she's probably in
the sixties and said, goodmorning, I haven't seen you.
I'm Ben, the chaplain, rah rah.
And she said, oh, yes.
Well, I'm here to pack up mom'sroom.
Oh, I'm sorry about that.
I'm sorry, I haven't had achance to meet you.
Oh, I haven't been here for two,three years because mom didn't
(12:12):
know who I was.
And I'm like, now in the momentmom's not there, so my job is to
care for her.
So it's not a time to respond asI would perhaps choose to
respond.
Yeah, and, and it, and it ishard.
It can be overwhelming andsandwich generation, young kids
(12:33):
trying to hold down a job.
All of those things can add tothe complexity, and I don't want
to underplay that, but when I,when I'm training people, when
I'm talking to churches, I say,well, when there's a new
grandchild in the family, doesthe grandchild know anybody's
names the baby?
(12:54):
Oh, does it recognize you?
No.
No.
Does it do anything other thanscream, sleep and make smells?
No.
Uh, but how many people wannacome and see the baby?
Oh, but how come if the baby'simportant, we don't care about
grandpa.
And as Christians particularly,yeah, I think we need to
(13:17):
remember and apply our theologythat all people are created by
God.
In God's image and so loved thatJesus died for them.
Yeah.
Why are we going to see thebaby?
Why are we going to see grandpa?
Because they're people, becausewe're called to love them and he
(13:40):
may be unhappy tomorrow, but wecare because we are called to
love and they're people.
Whether that recognizes or not,we only visit because we get
something out of the engagementand often we do, including with
people with advanced dementia.
It is not simply a one waystreet, but if we only go
(14:02):
because of it's affirming forus, then why are we going again?
Yeah,
Vona Johnson (14:10):
yeah.
You're reminding me early on.
When dad was still actively, outin the community and things like
that.
He, when his wife was stillalive, you know, they
complimented each other reallywell.
She physically was ailing, youknow, his mind was failing.
So they, they, they really, theyworked.
(14:31):
But when there were times whenshe wasn't home and wasn't able
to be there, I spent more timedriving over, checking on him,
making sure he was okay andthings.
And there were times and it waslike, just, I have things I need
to do.
I don't want to do this.
But I knew that I had to and.
I can't think of one time thatI, I actually even got to the
(14:55):
point where I just prayed.
It was like, Lord, just show methe blessing.
Show, you know, go there withme, show me the blessing while
I'm there.
And he did every single time Iwalked out of there, having had
some of the most beautifulconversations that, that we've
had.
So yeah, we, you're right.
(15:16):
We need to not make it aboutourselves and, and we need to
look for that blessing becausethey're there.
They're there.
Ben Boland (15:23):
Yep.
Very much so.
Vona Johnson (15:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of the things that I alsowanted to talk about, and I'm
really noticing this aboutmyself in particular, and in
conversations I've had withothers, you know, there's, it's
almost like this extendedgrieving process.
You know, we get, we get to thepoint where we know what's
(15:47):
coming.
So we're, we're grieving ourlosses.
We're, you know, the, the, wedon't spend the time the way
that we used to, things likethat.
And, uh.
I laughed when I realized theother day that I am my father's
daughter.
And, you know, I would ask himhow he was.
I'm fine.
I'm okay.
(16:08):
And I found myself saying thesame thing to people when they
would ask how I'm doing.
Oh, I'm fine.
I'm, I'm okay.
Of course.
And I've really had to just stopand give myself some grace.
Mm-hmm.
I'm, I'm not saying I'm greatnear as often as I usually do.
(16:32):
And I'm, I'm just giving myselfthat permission to say, you
know, I, I'm, I'm doing okay youknow, or whatever.
But then I'm also giving myselfpermission on those harder days
to maybe just.
Take it easy and not doanything.
At the end of the day, you know,where I might would normally
tackle a task or something likethat, I'll, I'll go for a walk
(16:55):
or read a book or do something.
Just more self care than I mightwould normally do.
Ben Boland (17:02):
Yeah, and I think we all do that, I mean, Jesus good
if we don't right.
Takes himself off into thewilderness.
He goes away from the crowds, hewho was before all and is the
Lord of all.
Fully, God says, yep, I need totake a breather now.
Need to take a break.
(17:22):
As he prepares for Gethsemane,he goes to the ground garden and
spends time praying and says,mates, can you pray for me?
Now, the mates faileddreadfully, but he needs to take
time.
Praying he needed to take timeout in, in caring for ourselves
(17:42):
is critical.
The old line that, yeah, you'reon a flight and the oxygen mask
comes down, you've gotta put iton first so you can help the
person next to you up line.
Dementia is terminal, but it isnot quickly terminal, generally.
Right.
Um, so it's, it's the marathon.
You don't go at the marathon,like you go at a hundred meter
(18:05):
sprint.
You've gotta pace yourself.
Vona Johnson (18:08):
You know, we, I, we kind of just jumped right
into the conversation and Ithink that now might be a good
time to just pause and talkabout who Ben Bolen is and, and
what you do and why, why are welistening to this guy from
Australia
Ben Boland (18:25):
talking about, just about look, a great accent.
He
Vona Johnson (18:28):
does.
I love it, but yeah.
Tell how did you get into thework that you're doing?
You've just published a book.
Bravo.
Um, that's, that's amazing.
Congratulations.
Yes, thank you.
We will put a link to that inthe show notes as well.
Um, yeah, tell us a little bitabout Ben.
Ben Boland (18:49):
Bit about Ben.
Um, in, there's lots to tellabout Ben, but in terms of the
aged care stuff.
I started regularly visiting anursing home care home when I
was about 10 or 11.
My great-grandmother was thereand it was sort of three blocks
down the road and we, me and mysiblings, it's not just the Ben
(19:10):
show would visit there on theway to the school bus, to the
bus stop.
So I'm an odd person in that.
I've spent a lot of time witholder people, with people who've
got some cognitive impairment indementia.
Over a long time.
In my first year at Biblecollege, we went as part of a bi
college mission to aPresbyterian nursing home.
(19:32):
And I was gobsmacked that someof the other people in the team
found it really uncomfortable.
And I'm like, it's just, it,it's, it's normal, isn't it?
So yeah, post Bible college Istarted working as a student
minister or catechist.
Um, and then became chaplain.
And I've been full-time in thisspace for 15 plus years now
(19:56):
across three states here inAustralia.
And there's been some studyalong the line there too, and
some advocacy, speaking,writing, and most recently the
book.
So my, my passion there is, isnot simply caring for older
people and people living withdementia.
About encouraging and equippingthe church to do that well.
Vona Johnson (20:18):
So if someone was like, oh.
I need to know more about this.
How would they find you?
Ben Boland (20:26):
Yeah.
Well, they can listen to metoday on courageous requirement
and hope that I don't sound toocrummy.
Uh, I think you said you put thelink to the book below and
that's available in the US andin fact globally.
But on LinkedIn is probably thebest spot to find me in terms of
internet ness.
Just because these links topodcasts I've done.
(20:49):
Writing stuff, articles I'vewritten, blah, blah, blah.
So that'll give them a chance todig into some stuff, and I'd
love for them to reach out andtalk to me.
Vona Johnson (20:57):
Awesome.
And I'll put that link in aswell.
I, we could do all the, themedias, but I think we can
overwhelm people with links.
So I think that that's perfect.
We'll get that linked in one,in, in the, the show notes as
well.
So one of the things that Ireally wanted to cover today.
(21:17):
It's a big one because I thinkit's what really sets those of
us who are Christians apart fromthe rest of the world that, and
maybe I shouldn't even say thatbecause maybe there are
Christians that, that believethis as well.
But literally I was having aconversation recently and I was
talking about a really bad day.
That dad was having.
(21:39):
And the response was, I don'tknow why we make them suffer
like that.
Why can't we just do somethingabout that?
And I know that that's a fairlyprevalent thought.
Let's just, ah,
Ben Boland (21:54):
yeah.
Vona Johnson (21:55):
I can't even think of a nice way to say
Ben Boland (21:57):
kill them.
Um, yeah.
I'm real enough to call a statestay.
Yeah.
Yeah, and globally it isbecoming much more common.
In Queensland where I'm based,voluntary assisted dying is now
very much legal.
And we've got people like PeterSinger who's I think now at one
of the American universities,but an Australian by birth who's
(22:20):
advocating euthanasia for peopleliving with dementia because,
well, once you lose yourcognition, you lose being a
person.
And I don't wanna underplay howhard dementia can be.
I don't wanna play the Pollyannacard.
But I also think it's criticalthat as Christians we say, well,
(22:41):
what does the Bible say?
And the Bible says that we arenot simply minds which happen to
have a body indeed.
The Bible speaks of eternity anda good heaven.
Eternity in that sense as abodily experience.
It's not spirits in the cloudswith harps which is really good
(23:03):
because I can't play the harpum, but bodily, which might be
Vona Johnson (23:08):
run.
Ben Boland (23:10):
Thank you.
I'll skip on that.
I don't think that would beheaven for anybody.
But we are created by God.
Wherever we are alive, we arecalled to be valued there.
And even in death, we care forthe body as a form of respect
(23:30):
and we look forward to a bodilyresurrection.
Yes, I know Christians whowonder about dementia
diminishing people.
To the point, and dementia candiminish someone's abilities,
but with due respects, I'm notas fast as I was at 30 either.
Life is about change, but ourvalue isn't our function.
(23:54):
Our value isn't our pain, even.
We are people.
We bear God's image.
We are called to respondappropriately to that.
If I've got a sick animal, I, Ihave had euthanized and I've
euthanized my animals.
It's not a fun job, but I dothat without any hesitation.
(24:18):
But biblically, one of the bigimplications of the Imago dei,
the image of God is thou shallnot murder.
Either others or ourselves interms of suicide.
Because we are separate tocreation, we are part of
creation, but we are not simplydogs or cats or horses.
(24:39):
Blessings, though those animalsare.
Vona Johnson (24:43):
Well, and again, I think I, I, I think that that's
a beautiful explanation and I,and I agree wholeheartedly, and
I also believe that in today'sworld, people don't have to
suffer the way.
That we used to, I mean, wehave, we have all kinds of drugs
that can take away the anxietyand the pain and the, I mean,
(25:05):
all the things.
So there, I mean, kindness ishelping to keep them
comfortable.
I, I believe that, you know, we,as long as we are still
breathing, God has a purpose forus.
We may not be able to witness inso many words, but just our, if
my dad can't witness maybe myconversations with the staff is
(25:29):
witnessing to a staff who hasnever met Jesus before.
I mean, we don't know when ouropportunities come and, and what
people take home from thoseconversations.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Again,
Ben Boland (25:42):
we've just buried dad in two days after dad died,
we had one of the staff from thenursing home reach out to my
sister to say so how can I findout more about being a Christian
and what that means?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Praise the Lord, make the wins.
And, and I would, consideringwe're talking dementia, it's
important to note that lots ofpeople living with dementia come
(26:04):
to faith.
Becoming a Christian is notsimply a cognitive exercise.
It's a work of God, and spiritspeaks to spirit, and God saves
people living with dementia and.
Praise the Lord.
Vona Johnson (26:22):
Well, and that's an excellent point because our
faith is nothing that we do.
Mm-hmm.
It's the Holy Spirit that doesit in us, and, and you know,
it's, that's one of thebeautiful things about Dad and I
don't know that I qualified, youknow, it's like I've talked
about him.
I mean, literally, I don't know.
He's actively towards the end ofhis life, I don't know how much
(26:44):
longer he'll be here.
And you know, I mean, we couldhang up.
Right now, and I might get thephone call.
I don't know.
And it, it doesn't matter.
That's not relevant.
What's relevant is the fact thathe is a child of God and what,
what I love about my dad is at,at a very, at.
(27:06):
Young, much younger age.
He, at one time, he went to a, arevival, a tent revival, out in
the middle of nowhere and foundJesus, he and his mother when he
was 13, I believe.
Isn't that cool?
Um, and, and decided that hewanted to be a minister and
actually went several statesaway.
You know, he didn't have avehicle, so he hitchhiked back
(27:28):
and forth, and I don't know howmuch seminary he got, but he
didn't finish.
But the fact that he went toldme that, you know, he, there
was, there was some stirring inhis heart, right?
You don't just do that.
And then, and then he lived alife that wouldn't demonstrate
that.
I mean, people that just lookedat the outside would say, you
know, that man doesn't knowChrist.
(27:50):
Nobody gets to decide that.
But in his old later years, hisfaith became very important to
him again.
And I just remember that even inhis.
Advanced stages of dementia whenhis wife passed away.
And it was a very confusing timefor him.
He would say, you know, well,where, where is she?
We need to go see her.
(28:11):
And, and that reminds me, I'm,this is my own personal opinion.
I'm not an expert, but my adviceto people is if you have someone
who dies.
That has a loved one withdementia.
I really encourage there be, ifit's an older person, that there
be a casket involved, because Ithink dad never recognized the
(28:31):
funeral because he never sawher, he never saw a casket, he
never saw, there was no closurein that.
And at his age that was, youknow, that was the norm.
I just felt like I, I think hejust never realized that.
He's like, yeah, she's gone.
When are we gonna do this?
And I would say, you know, we,we had the funeral.
(28:54):
You were there.
And, and she's with Jesus now.
And every time I would say,she's with Jesus.
Now she's in heaven.
However, I would respond in thatconversation and we had it many
times.
Every single time he wouldfinish with, that's the only
thing that matters.
He didn't, he didn't know.
He didn't, you know, he knew, hestill knows his name, but he, he
(29:17):
didn't know he had forgottenmost of what he ever knew in his
life, but he knew that mattered.
That's huge.
Yeah.
Ben Boland (29:24):
Yeah.
It, it's colossally huge.
And look, one of the questions Iget asked semi regularly is,
well, what happens if I, or ifmy dad forgets Jesus?
And the answer I give is, sorry.
Is Christianity about youremembering Jesus?
Do you remember Jesus all thetime?
No.
(29:45):
Remembering you?
Oh yeah, I think it's probablyabout him.
Well, do you think he's gonnaforget you?
Do you?
Is he gonna forget my dadbecause I forget Jesus?
Um, I don't live a perfect life.
Our faith is on.
Him remembering us.
The classic book by JohnSwinton, living in the Memories
(30:07):
of God is a beautifuldescription of part of not
simply dementia journey, but theChristian journey.
Vona Johnson (30:18):
I'll have to find That sounds like an interesting
book.
Ben Boland (30:21):
Uh, John is the, the preeminent image of theologian.
Vona Johnson (30:25):
Okay, wonderful.
So.
As we wrap this conversation up,and it's been a beautiful
conversation and it's reallybeen a blessing to me at this
time.
I really appreciate you takingthe time.
Is what would be one thing if,if the listeners walked away
from, from this conversation, ifthey could remember one thing,
(30:48):
if you'd want them to rememberone thing, what would that be?
Ben Boland (30:55):
To remember that people living with dementia.
Are loved by God and we arecalled to love them too.
Vona Johnson (31:05):
You know, that's, that's really beautiful.
And it's reminded me.
That one of the things that I, Iwanted to talk about, I didn't
write it down and I didn'tremember it until just now.
It's my show.
I can do it in whatever order Iwant to.
Right.
I could maybe even change theorder, who knows?
(31:28):
But one of the things that Ihave struggled with in, in my,
my relationship with Dad is.
You know how, how we talk aboutthis end of life stuff with
someone with advanced stages,because, you know, you don't,
you don't say, remember this,you don't, you don't want them.
(31:50):
You know that, that's hard.
Ben Boland (31:52):
Yeah.
And when I have,
Vona Johnson (31:57):
when I have brought up, you know, the heaven
and, and that it might begetting, he gets.
Oh, no.
I mean, he is like, Uhuh, I'mnot, I'm not going anywhere.
So, um, I just, do you have anyadvice for, for having those
kinds of conversations or do youjust let it go and just be in
(32:19):
the moment and trust that it'sokay?
Ben Boland (32:24):
Perhaps all of the above.
We, we do trust that it's okay.
We trust that God doesn't needme.
He doesn't need you.
Uh, he knows your dad.
He knows my dad.
So there is some level of trust.
There is some level of just rolewith punches and role with the
day, and often with particularlyadvanced dementia, responding to
(32:48):
the emotion is often moreimportant than responding
necessarily to the literalwords.
So powerful.
And perhaps given what you'vesaid about your dad and for his
wife's funeral, I'd be focusingmore on, isn't it wonderful
that, sorry, wife's name, whichI've forgotten.
Vona Johnson (33:10):
I don't think I ever mentioned it.
Her name was Erin.
Ben Boland (33:13):
Erin.
Um, but isn't it wonderful thatErin is with her Lord?
No more pain, no more suffering.
Um, yeah.
And let him affirm that.
Yeah.
That's the only thing that'simportant.
Vona Johnson (33:27):
Good point.
I love that.
I love that.
This is wonderful.
Well, Ben, we are there.
We have used up the time that weset aside for this conversation,
and I'm just so grateful to youfor, for taking the time and
sitting down and having, havingthis conversation with, with me
(33:50):
and with the listeners ofCourageous Retirement.
It's a big part of all of ourlives.
It doesn't seem like it'sanything retirement, but
obviously as we get closer to.
Retirement age, we, we will dealwith this more and more, whether
it's with someone we love or asyou so graciously reminded me
ourselves, and I think it'ssomething we need to, to, to be
(34:14):
aware of, that it's, it's there,it's real and it's not going
away.
Ben Boland (34:20):
And it, and it can be a good reminder to us that
our value isn't, ourfunctionality, isn't our memory,
isn't our ability to to doanything.
Our value is beyond that, and Ithink that's a really important
lesson for us, whether you aretwo or 22 or 102 that's, that's
critical.
(34:41):
Absolutely.
Been such a lovely privilege totalk to you, Vona thank you.
This episode was recorded justunder a month ago, four days
after the recording with Ben, myfather did pass away.
And so of course, a lot hashappened for me in this last
month and I really questionedwhether it would be too soon to
release this episode ondementia.
(35:04):
But I have realized, just inthis last month that there are
really many beautiful things.
That I have been able toexperience, part of which was
being able to be with my fatherthe last several hours of his
life and praying over him andreading scripture over him and
just celebrating, his life.
(35:24):
What a, what a beautifulcelebration we had.
And I found that to be souplifting.
I actually talked about thatsome in, my last episode of
Courageous Retirement.
As you know, if you've listenedto the show very often, I have
been making a concerted effortto tie all my episodes, except
for the last one because I justwas in a hurry.
(35:45):
But I've been making a concertedeffort to tie them all to
somehow, to my book A DifferentView.
And this week I want to tie itto chapter 20, the Purpose of
Prayer.
The excerpt from, the book thistime.
Is one of my favorite verses ofthe Bible is always be joyful.
Never stop praying.
(36:05):
Be thankful in allcircumstances, for this is God's
will for you who belong to JesusChrist.
That's from one Thessaloniansfive 16 through 18.
Once you live in God's will, youcan always be joyful regardless
of the circumstances.
You can give things ineverything, even the things that
(36:26):
go wrong.
Or seem to be bad on thesurface, there is always
something to be grateful for.
At the very least, you can givethanks for God's presence in the
times of trouble.
When you pray without ceasing,you will see life from a
different view.
And boy has he shown me thatthese last weeks, months even.
(36:50):
Of course I didn't know thismorning when I got up.
What verse I was gonna tie thisto.
And God in the way that healmost always does for me, has
pointed me to the verse that Iwanted to share in my devotion.
And again, that's out of theportals of prayer from, from my
church.
And it again, it pointed toFirst Thessalonians, uh, five
(37:12):
18, where it says, give thanksin all circumstances for this is
the will of God in Jesus Christfor you.
Now I am going to read to yousome of the, the devotion today
because it was just, it justreally struck me.
And, um, again, God's timing isalways perfect in some
circumstances, such as when wesuffer or when we grieve, we can
(37:35):
hardly fathom how to givethanks.
Yet we trust that God's will forus is good.
We might give thanks for eternalgifts, his loving kindness for
salvation for his word.
Perhaps we will thank him forloved ones.
We could thank him for our dailybread, food on the table, roof
over our head, a shirt on ourback, or maybe we will give
(38:00):
thanks for the mercy in themoment.
Breathing, taking the next step.
Getting through the hour,praying with Thanksgiving can
open our eyes to the many waysthat the Lord is at hand giving
care for us.
By the grace of the Holy Spirit,peace and joy can take root in
our hearts as we rest in Him.
(38:20):
And then the short prayer, thereis, Lord, by your Holy Spirit,
fill my prayers with thanks toyou and my heart with joy in
Jesus' name.
Amen.
I probably will talk aboutlessons I've learned from my dad
along the way.
In future episodes, um, I don'tintend to dwell on it.
Courageous retirement is aboutso much more, but it really is
(38:41):
about trusting God, trustingthat Jesus will get us through
the difficult times, and he hasdone that for me.
We've suffered much loss in ourfamily, but we know that we know
without a doubt that our lovedones are with Jesus because they
knew him.
I pray that you too know Jesus,and if you don't.
And you don't even know where tostart.
(39:02):
I would love to have thatconversation with you.
I just wanna thank you forstopping by today.
This was an importantconversation.
It's not perfect.
I didn't edit it out to make itglossy and shiny.
I just wanted to share a realconversation about what the walk
with dementia can look like.
It's different for everyone justbecause my experience or Ben's
(39:23):
experience was one way.
Doesn't mean that that's the wayit will be with your loved one,
but hopefully something that weshared will inspire you to just
lean in and walk with God and totrust him in that journey.
I just wanna thank you forjoining me today on Courageous
Retirement.
Remember, finishing well isn'tjust about closing one chapter.
It's about stepping boldly intothe best season.
(39:45):
Yet.
Until next time, live, the morethat God is calling you to in
this season.
There are an estimated 55 million people
(00:03):
throughout the world that havedementia as of 2020.
That number continues to climb.
It's also estimated that.
50% of the population, 85 andolder will experience some form
of dementia.
This is a big thing today.
My special guest, Ben Boland,who is a chaplain that works
with elders, joins me and we'regonna talk specifically about
(00:25):
dementia.
Now, this is not a scientificconversation.
This is a heartfelt conversationabout two adults who have
experienced dementia firsthandwith someone that they love.
It's real, it's raw and it's animportant conversation to have.
I hope you'll join us.
Speaker (00:41):
Do you fear?
What lies beyond retirement?
What if it's a gateway to a lifefilled with purpose, meaning,
and adventure rather than anend?
Discover peace and fulfillmentas you boldly enter this new
chapter in CourageousRetirement, a Christian podcast.
I'm your host, author, and coachVNA Johnson.
Let's get started.
Vona Johnson (01:01):
Today we have a really special episode of
Courageous Retirement.
We wanna talk about somethingthat is hard to talk about and
that is dementia, and we'llprobably focus almost more on
the end stage of dementia, justbecause that's very close to the
path that both Ben and I are on.
As you will note, as soon as hestarts speaking, he is not from,
(01:26):
from America.
We're just really excited tohave you here with us today.
I appreciate the work that youdo.
And had I not been on thejourney that I've been on these
last couple of years, I don'tknow I ever appreciated how
important this work is, so let'stalk about dementia, but let's
(01:47):
talk about it from a Christian'sperspective of dementia, because
there are all kinds of crazyideas out there on how we should
be responding to this, what'sbecoming to be a very common
occurrence in our world today.
Ben Boland (02:03):
Yeah, dementia's a huge occurrence.
Not only in the western world,but right across the planet.
The largest population of peopleliving with dementia today is in
Asia.
Oh, it's, so, it's both my lifeand v's.
Life very deeply in terms of ourfathers.
But it's a huge issue in the, inthe Australian context, in the
(02:25):
UK context, dementia is thebiggest killer of women.
So it's a huge issue and one Ifear as a Christian that the
church often neglects andforgets
Vona Johnson (02:40):
well.
And it's easy to do because oncethat individual gets more
advanced in their dementia,they're not in the pew every
Sunday because they, you know,unless they've got someone to
bring them there, they aren'tgonna be able to get there on
their own.
(03:00):
And so it's, it's kind of almostthat out of sight, out of mind
context.
Is it not?
Ben Boland (03:07):
Very much so.
My dad has been at the samechurch for longer than I've been
alive, so 47 years or something.
Mm-hmm.
Um, served on almost every roleother than the singing team
preaching eldership, et cetera,et cetera.
But I was there last weekendseeing mom.
My dad's just died.
(03:28):
Just for context for listeners.
And was doing some training atthat church around dementia, and
the minister kept referring tohim by his long form name as
opposed to what everybody knewabout as Bob because the
minister's been there for twoyears, but he really not met
dad.
Vona Johnson (03:46):
Yeah.
Ben Boland (03:48):
And if you've got advanced dementia, you are very,
very unlikely to be attending alocal church.
Travel.
Attention span, cognitionissues, confidence issues are
going to make attending a normalchurch, almost impossible.
Vona Johnson (04:07):
Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up
because I was visiting with afamily member.
My father is I think in yourterminology reading through your
book is it actively dying?
Is that.
A terminology.
He's, he's at the point where,you know, of course we don't
know when he will go home toJesus, but we know just based on
(04:30):
certain things that arehappening in his life that it's,
it's very near.
And talking to a family member,they were like, so what church
will you, will you hold theservices in?
And I said, I plan to do that inmy church.
Only because the church that heattended previously, there's a
different minister there who hadnever had never seen him.
(04:53):
Mm-hmm.
And at least he had attended mychurch with me for a year or two
before he wasn't able to attendanymore.
And that pastor still sees himfairly regularly.
And that, you know, that's mycommunity and I probably,
honestly, I'm going to need thatcommunity more than dad is at
that point.
Ben Boland (05:12):
Yeah.
And I'm really excited that yourpastor has been seeing your dad.
Yeah.
And engaging with him.
Vona Johnson (05:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So let's, I mean, boy did wejust jump right in?
We went straight to the, the,the heart of it.
Um, and there are more thingsthat I would like to explore
there, but let's talk let's backit up a ways and, and talk about
those.
Those more early stages when wemaybe start noticing the
(05:46):
symptoms in our, you know, ourparents, our neighbors you know,
whoever it is in our life.
Ben Boland (05:52):
What
Vona Johnson (05:52):
kind, pardon me.
Ben Boland (05:55):
Even ourselves.
Vona Johnson (05:56):
Well, yes.
Yes.
What kinds of things.
Should we be watching for?
What kinds of conversationsshould we be having to prepare
for that possible eventuality?
Ben Boland (06:12):
In terms of recognizing dementia, perhaps
the starting point is torecognize that it's not just a
memory disease.
Dementia is a, a range ofdifferent diseases that affect
the mind.
So it affects all kinds ofthings that are affected by the
moment.
Spatial awareness.
(06:33):
So for dad, one of the earlysigns was that dad, who, Bob,
who never got lost ever Yeah.
Suddenly got lost.
Now I can get lost in a wetpaper bag.
So if, if I suddenly got lost,it wouldn't be a sign of
dementia because I've always gotlost.
Um.
(06:53):
Dad who was an engineer, mathsstarted to be getting
problematic.
So it can be those things.
Personality changes.
It can be memory loss, but weneed to remember that some level
of cognitively slowing is normalfor aging, but dementia is not.
(07:15):
And part of it in terms ofdiagnosis is being good about
seeing the doctor.
Um, and catching up with himregular
Vona Johnson (07:23):
and, and being honest when you are with the
doctor, right?
Ben Boland (07:28):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
But I'm fine.
I have no problems at all.
Vona Johnson (07:34):
My, my dad literally, I such a joy, you
know, even at this very endstage.
You know, I can ask him.
Do you need anything?
I'm fine.
I'm fine.
Do you have any pain?
I'm good.
Don't worry about it.
You know, he just doesn't wannabother anybody and it's like, it
you, it's okay.
It's okay not to be okay.
I've literally said that to him,but he just he.
(07:58):
He's a person that knows so manypeople, but early on he would
not be able to retain names.
Mm-hmm.
And so, so everyone was partnerbuddy, you know, usually it was
partner or with kids it would beyou are the boss or, I mean, he
just, you know, he was alwaysjust had some sort of name and
(08:19):
for me.
You know, of course after weknew that, that he, he, he was
already in the memory unit atthe home, but one of the most
difficult days was the day.
And we literally were on our wayhome from church and he was in
the back seat and my husband andI were visiting in the front
seat.
It was only, you know, just ashort ride.
And pretty soon he said, ma'am,ma'am.
(08:44):
That got me, that got me.
And you know, he hasn't calledme by name since I know that he
knows me, but that, that took alittle getting used to.
In fact, I don't think he knows,I don't think he knows who I am
or how I fit into the picture ofhis life.
He knows that I'm important.
He knows that I care for himand, and do the things for him.
(09:07):
Yeah.
I don't know if he thinks I'm asister.
I mean, I, how do we know
Ben Boland (09:12):
Significant female?
Vona Johnson (09:14):
Yeah.
Right.
Ben Boland (09:15):
Yeah.
Vona Johnson (09:16):
Right, right.
Which is okay.
Okay.
Ben Boland (09:19):
It's hard, but it's like,
Vona Johnson (09:23):
yes, I, and it's not as hard as it once was.
I think it's like anything inour life, you know, we, we see
these things and we think, youknow, oh, that's so hard, or
isn't that difficult?
And.
You know, even years ago youknow, this is telling on myself,
but years ago I was a, a youngcollege student that had a child
(09:47):
out of wedlock.
And I, I remember people sayingto me, oh, that had to have been
so hard.
How did you do it?
And my response was.
I, I didn't even think about it.
I just did what I had to do, andthat's kind of where I'm at in
this stage in life.
It's, it's not, I mean, somedays are hard, but most days are
(10:07):
just what I have to do, and Ithink it's, I, as a Christian, I
think it's easier to accept thiswhole process because I trust
the Lord.
I know that God knows where God,I know that that dad is going to
heaven mm-hmm.
(10:28):
That he knows Jesus Christ andaccepted him.
And so I don't have to have thatfear of what, what's next for
him.
And, and I can trust that whatwill happen is exactly what is
intended to happen.
And it may not be about Dad atall.
It may not be about me at all.
It may be about.
(10:49):
The nurse that just came in togive him his meds and the way he
responds to her, right?
Yeah.
Ben Boland (10:55):
Yeah.
Well, the way you respond andthe nurse seeing your love for
your dad.
Vona Johnson (11:02):
Tell me one of the things that I find interesting,
maybe, or, or maybe a littletroubling, is people that I
hear.
And, and even the staff at, atthe home that dad's in, you
know, they're, they're just,they thank me all the time
because I'm very active in hislife and I, you know, they need
(11:22):
something and I, I'll go get itthen, you know, or, or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
And they've commented that thereare family members for other
residents that they never see,that never, you know, they've
just kind of walked away and,and I've heard people say, well,
it doesn't matter.
They don't remember if you'rethere anyway.
How do you respond to that?
Ben Boland (11:46):
Yes.
It's very much an issue inAustralia too.
Vona Johnson (11:50):
Yeah.
Ben Boland (11:51):
Situation a number of years ago working in the
dementia unit and I saw ayounger lady, she's probably in
the sixties and said, goodmorning, I haven't seen you.
I'm Ben, the chaplain, rah rah.
And she said, oh, yes.
Well, I'm here to pack up mom'sroom.
Oh, I'm sorry about that.
I'm sorry, I haven't had achance to meet you.
Oh, I haven't been here for two,three years because mom didn't
(12:12):
know who I was.
And I'm like, now in the momentmom's not there, so my job is to
care for her.
So it's not a time to respond asI would perhaps choose to
respond.
Yeah, and, and it, and it ishard.
It can be overwhelming andsandwich generation, young kids
(12:33):
trying to hold down a job.
All of those things can add tothe complexity, and I don't want
to underplay that, but when I,when I'm training people, when
I'm talking to churches, I say,well, when there's a new
grandchild in the family, doesthe grandchild know anybody's
names the baby?
(12:54):
Oh, does it recognize you?
No.
No.
Does it do anything other thanscream, sleep and make smells?
No.
Uh, but how many people wannacome and see the baby?
Oh, but how come if the baby'simportant, we don't care about
grandpa.
And as Christians particularly,yeah, I think we need to
(13:17):
remember and apply our theologythat all people are created by
God.
In God's image and so loved thatJesus died for them.
Yeah.
Why are we going to see thebaby?
Why are we going to see grandpa?
Because they're people, becausewe're called to love them and he
(13:40):
may be unhappy tomorrow, but wecare because we are called to
love and they're people.
Whether that recognizes or not,we only visit because we get
something out of the engagementand often we do, including with
people with advanced dementia.
It is not simply a one waystreet, but if we only go
(14:02):
because of it's affirming forus, then why are we going again?
Yeah,
Vona Johnson (14:10):
yeah.
You're reminding me early on.
When dad was still actively, outin the community and things like
that.
He, when his wife was stillalive, you know, they
complimented each other reallywell.
She physically was ailing, youknow, his mind was failing.
So they, they, they really, theyworked.
(14:31):
But when there were times whenshe wasn't home and wasn't able
to be there, I spent more timedriving over, checking on him,
making sure he was okay andthings.
And there were times and it waslike, just, I have things I need
to do.
I don't want to do this.
But I knew that I had to and.
I can't think of one time thatI, I actually even got to the
(14:55):
point where I just prayed.
It was like, Lord, just show methe blessing.
Show, you know, go there withme, show me the blessing while
I'm there.
And he did every single time Iwalked out of there, having had
some of the most beautifulconversations that, that we've
had.
So yeah, we, you're right.
(15:16):
We need to not make it aboutourselves and, and we need to
look for that blessing becausethey're there.
They're there.
Ben Boland (15:23):
Yep.
Very much so.
Vona Johnson (15:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
One of the things that I alsowanted to talk about, and I'm
really noticing this aboutmyself in particular, and in
conversations I've had withothers, you know, there's, it's
almost like this extendedgrieving process.
You know, we get, we get to thepoint where we know what's
(15:47):
coming.
So we're, we're grieving ourlosses.
We're, you know, the, the, wedon't spend the time the way
that we used to, things likethat.
And, uh.
I laughed when I realized theother day that I am my father's
daughter.
And, you know, I would ask himhow he was.
I'm fine.
I'm okay.
(16:08):
And I found myself saying thesame thing to people when they
would ask how I'm doing.
Oh, I'm fine.
I'm, I'm okay.
Of course.
And I've really had to just stopand give myself some grace.
Mm-hmm.
I'm, I'm not saying I'm greatnear as often as I usually do.
(16:32):
And I'm, I'm just giving myselfthat permission to say, you
know, I, I'm, I'm doing okay youknow, or whatever.
But then I'm also giving myselfpermission on those harder days
to maybe just.
Take it easy and not doanything.
At the end of the day, you know,where I might would normally
tackle a task or something likethat, I'll, I'll go for a walk
(16:55):
or read a book or do something.
Just more self care than I mightwould normally do.
Ben Boland (17:02):
Yeah, and I think we all do that, I mean, Jesus good
if we don't right.
Takes himself off into thewilderness.
He goes away from the crowds, hewho was before all and is the
Lord of all.
Fully, God says, yep, I need totake a breather now.
Need to take a break.
(17:22):
As he prepares for Gethsemane,he goes to the ground garden and
spends time praying and says,mates, can you pray for me?
Now, the mates faileddreadfully, but he needs to take
time.
Praying he needed to take timeout in, in caring for ourselves
(17:42):
is critical.
The old line that, yeah, you'reon a flight and the oxygen mask
comes down, you've gotta put iton first so you can help the
person next to you up line.
Dementia is terminal, but it isnot quickly terminal, generally.
Right.
Um, so it's, it's the marathon.
You don't go at the marathon,like you go at a hundred meter
(18:05):
sprint.
You've gotta pace yourself.
Vona Johnson (18:08):
You know, we, I, we kind of just jumped right
into the conversation and Ithink that now might be a good
time to just pause and talkabout who Ben Bolen is and, and
what you do and why, why are welistening to this guy from
Australia
Ben Boland (18:25):
talking about, just about look, a great accent.
He
Vona Johnson (18:28):
does.
I love it, but yeah.
Tell how did you get into thework that you're doing?
You've just published a book.
Bravo.
Um, that's, that's amazing.
Congratulations.
Yes, thank you.
We will put a link to that inthe show notes as well.
Um, yeah, tell us a little bitabout Ben.
Ben Boland (18:49):
Bit about Ben.
Um, in, there's lots to tellabout Ben, but in terms of the
aged care stuff.
I started regularly visiting anursing home care home when I
was about 10 or 11.
My great-grandmother was thereand it was sort of three blocks
down the road and we, me and mysiblings, it's not just the Ben
(19:10):
show would visit there on theway to the school bus, to the
bus stop.
So I'm an odd person in that.
I've spent a lot of time witholder people, with people who've
got some cognitive impairment indementia.
Over a long time.
In my first year at Biblecollege, we went as part of a bi
college mission to aPresbyterian nursing home.
(19:32):
And I was gobsmacked that someof the other people in the team
found it really uncomfortable.
And I'm like, it's just, it,it's, it's normal, isn't it?
So yeah, post Bible college Istarted working as a student
minister or catechist.
Um, and then became chaplain.
And I've been full-time in thisspace for 15 plus years now
(19:56):
across three states here inAustralia.
And there's been some studyalong the line there too, and
some advocacy, speaking,writing, and most recently the
book.
So my, my passion there is, isnot simply caring for older
people and people living withdementia.
About encouraging and equippingthe church to do that well.
Vona Johnson (20:18):
So if someone was like, oh.
I need to know more about this.
How would they find you?
Ben Boland (20:26):
Yeah.
Well, they can listen to metoday on courageous requirement
and hope that I don't sound toocrummy.
Uh, I think you said you put thelink to the book below and
that's available in the US andin fact globally.
But on LinkedIn is probably thebest spot to find me in terms of
internet ness.
Just because these links topodcasts I've done.
(20:49):
Writing stuff, articles I'vewritten, blah, blah, blah.
So that'll give them a chance todig into some stuff, and I'd
love for them to reach out andtalk to me.
Vona Johnson (20:57):
Awesome.
And I'll put that link in aswell.
I, we could do all the, themedias, but I think we can
overwhelm people with links.
So I think that that's perfect.
We'll get that linked in one,in, in the, the show notes as
well.
So one of the things that Ireally wanted to cover today.
(21:17):
It's a big one because I thinkit's what really sets those of
us who are Christians apart fromthe rest of the world that, and
maybe I shouldn't even say thatbecause maybe there are
Christians that, that believethis as well.
But literally I was having aconversation recently and I was
talking about a really bad day.
That dad was having.
(21:39):
And the response was, I don'tknow why we make them suffer
like that.
Why can't we just do somethingabout that?
And I know that that's a fairlyprevalent thought.
Let's just, ah,
Ben Boland (21:54):
yeah.
Vona Johnson (21:55):
I can't even think of a nice way to say
Ben Boland (21:57):
kill them.
Um, yeah.
I'm real enough to call a statestay.
Yeah.
Yeah, and globally it isbecoming much more common.
In Queensland where I'm based,voluntary assisted dying is now
very much legal.
And we've got people like PeterSinger who's I think now at one
of the American universities,but an Australian by birth who's
(22:20):
advocating euthanasia for peopleliving with dementia because,
well, once you lose yourcognition, you lose being a
person.
And I don't wanna underplay howhard dementia can be.
I don't wanna play the Pollyannacard.
But I also think it's criticalthat as Christians we say, well,
(22:41):
what does the Bible say?
And the Bible says that we arenot simply minds which happen to
have a body indeed.
The Bible speaks of eternity anda good heaven.
Eternity in that sense as abodily experience.
It's not spirits in the cloudswith harps which is really good
(23:03):
because I can't play the harpum, but bodily, which might be
Vona Johnson (23:08):
run.
Ben Boland (23:10):
Thank you.
I'll skip on that.
I don't think that would beheaven for anybody.
But we are created by God.
Wherever we are alive, we arecalled to be valued there.
And even in death, we care forthe body as a form of respect
(23:30):
and we look forward to a bodilyresurrection.
Yes, I know Christians whowonder about dementia
diminishing people.
To the point, and dementia candiminish someone's abilities,
but with due respects, I'm notas fast as I was at 30 either.
Life is about change, but ourvalue isn't our function.
(23:54):
Our value isn't our pain, even.
We are people.
We bear God's image.
We are called to respondappropriately to that.
If I've got a sick animal, I, Ihave had euthanized and I've
euthanized my animals.
It's not a fun job, but I dothat without any hesitation.
(24:18):
But biblically, one of the bigimplications of the Imago dei,
the image of God is thou shallnot murder.
Either others or ourselves interms of suicide.
Because we are separate tocreation, we are part of
creation, but we are not simplydogs or cats or horses.
(24:39):
Blessings, though those animalsare.
Vona Johnson (24:43):
Well, and again, I think I, I, I think that that's
a beautiful explanation and I,and I agree wholeheartedly, and
I also believe that in today'sworld, people don't have to
suffer the way.
That we used to, I mean, wehave, we have all kinds of drugs
that can take away the anxietyand the pain and the, I mean,
(25:05):
all the things.
So there, I mean, kindness ishelping to keep them
comfortable.
I, I believe that, you know, we,as long as we are still
breathing, God has a purpose forus.
We may not be able to witness inso many words, but just our, if
my dad can't witness maybe myconversations with the staff is
(25:29):
witnessing to a staff who hasnever met Jesus before.
I mean, we don't know when ouropportunities come and, and what
people take home from thoseconversations.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Again,
Ben Boland (25:42):
we've just buried dad in two days after dad died,
we had one of the staff from thenursing home reach out to my
sister to say so how can I findout more about being a Christian
and what that means?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Praise the Lord, make the wins.
And, and I would, consideringwe're talking dementia, it's
important to note that lots ofpeople living with dementia come
(26:04):
to faith.
Becoming a Christian is notsimply a cognitive exercise.
It's a work of God, and spiritspeaks to spirit, and God saves
people living with dementia and.
Praise the Lord.
Vona Johnson (26:22):
Well, and that's an excellent point because our
faith is nothing that we do.
Mm-hmm.
It's the Holy Spirit that doesit in us, and, and you know,
it's, that's one of thebeautiful things about Dad and I
don't know that I qualified, youknow, it's like I've talked
about him.
I mean, literally, I don't know.
He's actively towards the end ofhis life, I don't know how much
(26:44):
longer he'll be here.
And you know, I mean, we couldhang up.
Right now, and I might get thephone call.
I don't know.
And it, it doesn't matter.
That's not relevant.
What's relevant is the fact thathe is a child of God and what,
what I love about my dad is at,at a very, at.
(27:06):
Young, much younger age.
He, at one time, he went to a, arevival, a tent revival, out in
the middle of nowhere and foundJesus, he and his mother when he
was 13, I believe.
Isn't that cool?
Um, and, and decided that hewanted to be a minister and
actually went several statesaway.
You know, he didn't have avehicle, so he hitchhiked back
(27:28):
and forth, and I don't know howmuch seminary he got, but he
didn't finish.
But the fact that he went toldme that, you know, he, there
was, there was some stirring inhis heart, right?
You don't just do that.
And then, and then he lived alife that wouldn't demonstrate
that.
I mean, people that just lookedat the outside would say, you
know, that man doesn't knowChrist.
(27:50):
Nobody gets to decide that.
But in his old later years, hisfaith became very important to
him again.
And I just remember that even inhis.
Advanced stages of dementia whenhis wife passed away.
And it was a very confusing timefor him.
He would say, you know, well,where, where is she?
We need to go see her.
(28:11):
And, and that reminds me, I'm,this is my own personal opinion.
I'm not an expert, but my adviceto people is if you have someone
who dies.
That has a loved one withdementia.
I really encourage there be, ifit's an older person, that there
be a casket involved, because Ithink dad never recognized the
(28:31):
funeral because he never sawher, he never saw a casket, he
never saw, there was no closurein that.
And at his age that was, youknow, that was the norm.
I just felt like I, I think hejust never realized that.
He's like, yeah, she's gone.
When are we gonna do this?
And I would say, you know, we,we had the funeral.
(28:54):
You were there.
And, and she's with Jesus now.
And every time I would say,she's with Jesus.
Now she's in heaven.
However, I would respond in thatconversation and we had it many
times.
Every single time he wouldfinish with, that's the only
thing that matters.
He didn't, he didn't know.
He didn't, you know, he knew, hestill knows his name, but he, he
(29:17):
didn't know he had forgottenmost of what he ever knew in his
life, but he knew that mattered.
That's huge.
Yeah.
Ben Boland (29:24):
Yeah.
It, it's colossally huge.
And look, one of the questions Iget asked semi regularly is,
well, what happens if I, or ifmy dad forgets Jesus?
And the answer I give is, sorry.
Is Christianity about youremembering Jesus?
Do you remember Jesus all thetime?
No.
(29:45):
Remembering you?
Oh yeah, I think it's probablyabout him.
Well, do you think he's gonnaforget you?
Do you?
Is he gonna forget my dadbecause I forget Jesus?
Um, I don't live a perfect life.
Our faith is on.
Him remembering us.
The classic book by JohnSwinton, living in the Memories
(30:07):
of God is a beautifuldescription of part of not
simply dementia journey, but theChristian journey.
Vona Johnson (30:18):
I'll have to find That sounds like an interesting
book.
Ben Boland (30:21):
Uh, John is the, the preeminent image of theologian.
Vona Johnson (30:25):
Okay, wonderful.
So.
As we wrap this conversation up,and it's been a beautiful
conversation and it's reallybeen a blessing to me at this
time.
I really appreciate you takingthe time.
Is what would be one thing if,if the listeners walked away
from, from this conversation, ifthey could remember one thing,
(30:48):
if you'd want them to rememberone thing, what would that be?
Ben Boland (30:55):
To remember that people living with dementia.
Are loved by God and we arecalled to love them too.
Vona Johnson (31:05):
You know, that's, that's really beautiful.
And it's reminded me.
That one of the things that I, Iwanted to talk about, I didn't
write it down and I didn'tremember it until just now.
It's my show.
I can do it in whatever order Iwant to.
Right.
I could maybe even change theorder, who knows?
(31:28):
But one of the things that Ihave struggled with in, in my,
my relationship with Dad is.
You know how, how we talk aboutthis end of life stuff with
someone with advanced stages,because, you know, you don't,
you don't say, remember this,you don't, you don't want them.
(31:50):
You know that, that's hard.
Ben Boland (31:52):
Yeah.
And when I have,
Vona Johnson (31:57):
when I have brought up, you know, the heaven
and, and that it might begetting, he gets.
Oh, no.
I mean, he is like, Uhuh, I'mnot, I'm not going anywhere.
So, um, I just, do you have anyadvice for, for having those
kinds of conversations or do youjust let it go and just be in
(32:19):
the moment and trust that it'sokay?
Ben Boland (32:24):
Perhaps all of the above.
We, we do trust that it's okay.
We trust that God doesn't needme.
He doesn't need you.
Uh, he knows your dad.
He knows my dad.
So there is some level of trust.
There is some level of just rolewith punches and role with the
day, and often with particularlyadvanced dementia, responding to
(32:48):
the emotion is often moreimportant than responding
necessarily to the literalwords.
So powerful.
And perhaps given what you'vesaid about your dad and for his
wife's funeral, I'd be focusingmore on, isn't it wonderful
that, sorry, wife's name, whichI've forgotten.
Vona Johnson (33:10):
I don't think I ever mentioned it.
Her name was Erin.
Ben Boland (33:13):
Erin.
Um, but isn't it wonderful thatErin is with her Lord?
No more pain, no more suffering.
Um, yeah.
And let him affirm that.
Yeah.
That's the only thing that'simportant.
Vona Johnson (33:27):
Good point.
I love that.
I love that.
This is wonderful.
Well, Ben, we are there.
We have used up the time that weset aside for this conversation,
and I'm just so grateful to youfor, for taking the time and
sitting down and having, havingthis conversation with, with me
(33:50):
and with the listeners ofCourageous Retirement.
It's a big part of all of ourlives.
It doesn't seem like it'sanything retirement, but
obviously as we get closer to.
Retirement age, we, we will dealwith this more and more, whether
it's with someone we love or asyou so graciously reminded me
ourselves, and I think it'ssomething we need to, to, to be
(34:14):
aware of, that it's, it's there,it's real and it's not going
away.
Ben Boland (34:20):
And it, and it can be a good reminder to us that
our value isn't, ourfunctionality, isn't our memory,
isn't our ability to to doanything.
Our value is beyond that, and Ithink that's a really important
lesson for us, whether you aretwo or 22 or 102 that's, that's
critical.
(34:41):
Absolutely.
Been such a lovely privilege totalk to you, Vona thank you.
This episode was recorded justunder a month ago, four days
after the recording with Ben, myfather did pass away.
And so of course, a lot hashappened for me in this last
month and I really questionedwhether it would be too soon to
release this episode ondementia.
(35:04):
But I have realized, just inthis last month that there are
really many beautiful things.
That I have been able toexperience, part of which was
being able to be with my fatherthe last several hours of his
life and praying over him andreading scripture over him and
just celebrating, his life.
(35:24):
What a, what a beautifulcelebration we had.
And I found that to be souplifting.
I actually talked about thatsome in, my last episode of
Courageous Retirement.
As you know, if you've listenedto the show very often, I have
been making a concerted effortto tie all my episodes, except
for the last one because I justwas in a hurry.
(35:45):
But I've been making a concertedeffort to tie them all to
somehow, to my book A DifferentView.
And this week I want to tie itto chapter 20, the Purpose of
Prayer.
The excerpt from, the book thistime.
Is one of my favorite verses ofthe Bible is always be joyful.
Never stop praying.
(36:05):
Be thankful in allcircumstances, for this is God's
will for you who belong to JesusChrist.
That's from one Thessaloniansfive 16 through 18.
Once you live in God's will, youcan always be joyful regardless
of the circumstances.
You can give things ineverything, even the things that
(36:26):
go wrong.
Or seem to be bad on thesurface, there is always
something to be grateful for.
At the very least, you can givethanks for God's presence in the
times of trouble.
When you pray without ceasing,you will see life from a
different view.
And boy has he shown me thatthese last weeks, months even.
(36:50):
Of course I didn't know thismorning when I got up.
What verse I was gonna tie thisto.
And God in the way that healmost always does for me, has
pointed me to the verse that Iwanted to share in my devotion.
And again, that's out of theportals of prayer from, from my
church.
And it again, it pointed toFirst Thessalonians, uh, five
(37:12):
18, where it says, give thanksin all circumstances for this is
the will of God in Jesus Christfor you.
Now I am going to read to yousome of the, the devotion today
because it was just, it justreally struck me.
And, um, again, God's timing isalways perfect in some
circumstances, such as when wesuffer or when we grieve, we can
(37:35):
hardly fathom how to givethanks.
Yet we trust that God's will forus is good.
We might give thanks for eternalgifts, his loving kindness for
salvation for his word.
Perhaps we will thank him forloved ones.
We could thank him for our dailybread, food on the table, roof
over our head, a shirt on ourback, or maybe we will give
(38:00):
thanks for the mercy in themoment.
Breathing, taking the next step.
Getting through the hour,praying with Thanksgiving can
open our eyes to the many waysthat the Lord is at hand giving
care for us.
By the grace of the Holy Spirit,peace and joy can take root in
our hearts as we rest in Him.
(38:20):
And then the short prayer, thereis, Lord, by your Holy Spirit,
fill my prayers with thanks toyou and my heart with joy in
Jesus' name.
Amen.
I probably will talk aboutlessons I've learned from my dad
along the way.
In future episodes, um, I don'tintend to dwell on it.
Courageous retirement is aboutso much more, but it really is
(38:41):
about trusting God, trustingthat Jesus will get us through
the difficult times, and he hasdone that for me.
We've suffered much loss in ourfamily, but we know that we know
without a doubt that our lovedones are with Jesus because they
knew him.
I pray that you too know Jesus,and if you don't.
And you don't even know where tostart.
(39:02):
I would love to have thatconversation with you.
I just wanna thank you forstopping by today.
This was an importantconversation.
It's not perfect.
I didn't edit it out to make itglossy and shiny.
I just wanted to share a realconversation about what the walk
with dementia can look like.
It's different for everyone justbecause my experience or Ben's
(39:23):
experience was one way.
Doesn't mean that that's the wayit will be with your loved one,
but hopefully something that weshared will inspire you to just
lean in and walk with God and totrust him in that journey.
I just wanna thank you forjoining me today on Courageous
Retirement.
Remember, finishing well isn'tjust about closing one chapter.
It's about stepping boldly intothe best season.
(39:45):
Yet.
Until next time, live, the morethat God is calling you to in
this season.
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