December 19, 2025 • 42 mins
Navigating grief during the holidays can feel especially heavy when the world expects joy, celebration, and togetherness.
In this compassionate episode of Courageous Retirement, host Vona Johnson welcomes clinical psychologist and grief educator Dr. Richelle to offer gentle help and practical support for anyone experiencing loss during the holiday season.
Together, they explore how grief is more than the loss of a loved one—it can also stem from changes in health, relationships, identity, purpose, or life transitions common in midlife and retirement. Dr. Richelle explains how unprocessed grief can affect emotional well-being, energy, and relationships, and why acknowledging grief is a vital step toward healing.
This conversation offers practical ways to cope with grief during the holidays, including:
- managing holiday loneliness,
- setting healthy boundaries,
- simplifying expectations, and
- creating meaningful rituals that honor both loss and hope.
Dr. Richelle emphasizes the importance of giving yourself permission—to feel, to rest, and to approach the holidays honestly and gently.
Drawing from both her professional expertise and personal journey through loss, Dr. Richelle provides reassurance and wisdom for those seeking peace during grief. If you are carrying sorrow into this season, this episode offers understanding, encouragement, and a reminder that you are not alone—and that healing is possible, even during the holidays.
✨ You don’t have to do the holidays the way you always have. You get to do them your way.
Episode Chapters:
00:00 Understanding Holiday Loneliness and Grief
00:19 Introducing Dr. Richelle, Clinical Psychologist & Grief Educator
01:19 What Grief Really Is (More Than Loss)
01:38 Emotional Impact of Grief
05:39 Short-Term Energy Relieving Behaviors (STERBs)
08:42 Dr. Richelle’s Personal and Professional Journey
19:57 The “Backpack” of Accumulated Loss
23:10 Navigating Grief During the Holidays
24:25 Coping Strategies for the Holiday Season
27:25 Creating Meaningful Rituals
30:34 Giving Yourself Permission to Grieve
34:40 Resources for Grief Recovery
38:55 Grounding Exercise for Holiday Stress
42:22 Final Thoughts and Season Conclusion
Resources:
Learn more about Dr. Richelle’s Grief Recovery Method®, take the What’s Blocking You? Quiz, and explore her books Journey Through Grief and Loss and Abundant Soul HERE.
Notable Quotes:
“It’s okay to say not this year. It’s okay to say not yet.” — Dr. Richelle
“Give yourself permission to cancel. Give yourself permission to simplify this year. Permission is so powerful because we are judgmental of ourselves.” — Dr. Richelle
“You don’t have to do the holidays—you get to do them honestly.” — Dr. Richelle
Scripture for Reflection:
“The instructions of the Lord are perfect, reviving the soul…
They are more desirable than gold, even the finest gold.
I'd love to hear from you! Send me a text message!
Thank you for stopping by today! Remember to Engage Your Faith and Live Your More as you reap the benefits of Courageous Retirement!
To watch the video, check out my YouTube Channel!
Learn more about the show, author Vona Johnson, and more at vonajohnson.com!
Schedule a free 15 minute Your Path to More call with Vona.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Nearly half of the Americanpopulation feel lonely or a
sense of loss over the holidays.
36 to 40% of them don't evencelebrate the holidays because
of the grief they'reexperiencing now.
Grief comes in many forms andit's caused by many different
things.
It's not always the death of aloved one that causes grief.
Today I have a very specialguest on my show.
(00:26):
Dr.
Richelle is a clinicalpsychologist and we are going to
take a dive into theconversation about grief.
Stick around to the very endwhere she's gonna give some
practical tips on what you cando to head off your grief over
the holidays; and truly anytime.
Speaker (00:41):
Do you fear?
What lies beyond retirement?
What if it's a gateway to a lifefilled with purpose, meaning,
and adventure rather than anend?
Discover peace and fulfillmentas you boldly enter this new
chapter in CourageousRetirement, a Christian podcast.
I'm your host, author, and coachVona Johnson.
Let's get started.
Vona Johnson (01:00):
Hey, Richelle, I just wanna thank you so much for
joining us today.
I think releasing this rightbefore the holidays, is, is no
coincidence.
I think that this is a messagethat I believe a lot of people
need to hear.
We are going to talk about griefand we've, we've been
(01:21):
chit-chatting here before I hitrecord.
And something you said is whereI really wanna start with this
because I feel like we shoulddefine grief.
It's different for everybody,but I love how you described
grief and I wanna start there.
We'll come back and fill in someof the gaps about who you are
and what you do, but let's startthere.
Dr. Richelle (01:43):
Yeah.
Grief is the reaction to a lossof any kind.
Yes.
And it.
Involves so many emotions.
Um, sometimes very conflictingemotions at the same time.
And that happens because we havefamiliar patterns in our lives.
(02:06):
We get used to things being acertain way, and then when they
come to an end or somethingstops them, sometimes abruptly,
sometimes gradually, sometimeswe've even welcomed them and we
chose them.
Yes.
But there comes a point.
When we're in that place of, ohmy word, things have changed and
(02:28):
I don't feel like this is aworld that I understand anymore.
My life feels out of sorts.
And depending on what the endingis, if it's a person you know,
through a death or arelationship.
Through divorce or breaking upbecause any ending of a
(02:52):
relationship, again, can bringabout a feeling of grief.
Or maybe it could be, I knowyou're in the whole retirement
realm.
Um, grief happens in retirementbecause things change is an
abrupt change in our day-to-dayroutines, and our identity is so
often tied to what we do andwhat we get.
(03:15):
Acknowledged for and what we getpaid for.
Vona Johnson (03:19):
Yes.
Dr. Richelle (03:19):
You know, and, and an ending.
And when you've been a mother ora parent for years and now your
kids are in their own lives,creating their own traditions,
that can bring about a feelingof grief and having a diagnosis,
um, of any kind where your bodyis no longer cooperating and
(03:42):
doing what.
You want it to do in the way itused to do it.
Aging.
Vona Johnson (03:48):
Yep.
Dr. Richelle (03:49):
Can bring about grieving.
Vona Johnson (03:52):
You know, the, another one that you haven't
touched on that I think isreally huge in our society, and
I don't really want to dive toodeep on this because, it could
be a whole separateconversation.
There is a lot of grieving offamilies who have walked away
from relationships, parentswhose children don't speak to
(04:13):
them anymore.
and that is just to me sodevastating that our world has
become so bifurcated that wecan't even just talk it through,
because, even with like death, Imean there was a finite end.
And you can deal with that, butthat not knowing, where they
(04:35):
are, if they'll ever be thereagain.
It's kinda like, I've alwaysthought, having a child
kidnapped or something like thatwould be so much worse.
Dr. Richelle (04:44):
Oh yeah.
Vona Johnson (04:44):
Yeah.
Grief is huge and I I loved howyou said that.
It's the broken heart.
Dr. Richelle (04:50):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
And, and I think.
So often in life, we, we look atthings from a problem
perspective, you know, so if, ifI have a problem, then the way
to approach a problem is to fixit.
And we come at that from acognitive or a mental
(05:11):
perspective, is I gotta figurethis out.
What?
I don't know why I am doing thisway.
What's wrong with me?
I need to do this differently.
Yes, the reality is grieving.
Isn't a broken mind, it's abroken heart, and what a broken
heart needs is space to heal.
It has a need to be witnessedand to just acknowledge where
(05:33):
you are that you're hurting.
Vona Johnson (05:36):
Hmm.
Dr. Richelle (05:37):
There's no bypassing that pain, although we
have lots of things we love todo to distract ourselves from
that pain.
In fact, there is an actual termwe call that.
It's called sterbs, S-T-E-R-B-Ssterb.
Short term energy relievingbehaviors.
(05:57):
Ah, so we have our favorites,right?
You know, so, um, Amazon,Amazon, um, Netflix.
Um, oh my gosh, this is a timeof year where we love food.
I mean, when don't we love food?
But, um, eating.
Yeah.
(06:17):
Drinking.
Um, you know, you can go downthe list of, of some of the, you
know, some are funny and someare actually downright scary
and, and, and tragic addictionsof, you know, using alcohol
drugs.
Vona Johnson (06:31):
Shopping.
Dr. Richelle (06:32):
Shopping.
Yeah.
Otherwise no, as retail therapy,right.
So, yeah, it's all the things wedo.
So think back when we were kids,and I dunno if this ever
happened to you, but therethere's a classic story of a
little girl who, um, you know,she was at the play on the
playground at school and, andthe girls, they, they rejected
(06:54):
her.
And so they, they wouldn't lether play with her.
And so she was devastated whenshe got home.
She's talking to her mom andshe's crying, and she said,
yeah, they, you know, theywouldn't let me play at recess.
And her mom says, oh, dear,dear, kind of pats her on the
head and says, I just made aplate of cookies here.
Have a cookie that'll make youfeel better.
Vona Johnson (07:15):
Right?
Dr. Richelle (07:16):
You know, and so, and again, well-meaning that's
not to, you know, dump on mom,but she's doing what many of us
have learned to do when they're,when you're feeling bad, is do
something to feel better quick.
And so what we do is that in amoment, sure.
A, a fresh baked cookie doestaste and feel good.
Comfort food feels good.
(07:38):
You know, looking at Amazon tosee what I wanna put into my
shopping cart feels good.
But when it becomes a substitutefor feeling what we feel now,
what's happening is what we'repushing down emotions that need
to be addressed and they need tobe experienced, and they need to
(07:59):
be expressed in healthy ways.
Because what people believe isthat if I just ignore it, it'll
go away.
But unfortunately, the pain ofany grief, your body stores it
and it will come out.
And oftentimes what people find,it comes out in the least
opportune times.
(08:20):
So where we kind of lose it.
Uh, what do you think road rageis?
I mean, more than likely theperson who's having road rage,
it's, that's just the, the tipoff.
But there's something brewingunderneath and that oftentimes
is what we're finding theculture of people who don't know
how to grieve, don't know what'shealthy to do about their, their
(08:42):
feelings attached to a loss.
Vona Johnson (08:45):
Hmm.
Yeah, that's good.
You know, um, you sent me a, ashort bio and normally on the
show I don't do a lot ofbiography stuff, um, because
we're just having conversations.
Yeah.
But I think it's important inthis conversation.
For people to know that thisjust isn't a couple of
(09:07):
girlfriends sitting aroundtalking about something that,
that we care about.
So would you just spend a littlebit of time talking about your
qualifications to be able totalk about this?
I think that's really importantat this point.
Dr. Richelle (09:20):
Yeah, I'd be happy to.
So there's.
There's the professional and thepersonal side to this.
So professionally, I've been aclinical psychologist, uh, since
1990.
That dates me quite a bit.
Vona Johnson (09:32):
Yeah.
This is a retirement show.
We're all in the same boat here.
Dr. Richelle (09:36):
There you go.
And, um, you know, my, mycareer's taken me on many
pathways, but, um, where I'vemost recently landed is that I
morphed into what I call as anabundant life coach.
And it's all about meetingpeople in their points of
(09:56):
transition, navigating acrossroads of sorts.
And it could be in any of thethings like I mentioned before,
you know, losses of all kinds,um, or maybe just opportunities.
But who am I now in?
What am I here for?
And what's next and what doesGod have for me and who am I
here to be?
All of those things.
(10:17):
So that's, that's what I've beendoing for the last, almost nine
years now, is helping peoplenavigate and to find out who
they are.
I mean, it's really identitybased so that they can live the
abundant life God calls them to,but about, four or five years
ago, I was transitioning intodoing more grief work and
(10:43):
interestingly enough, grief hasalways been, an area of passion,
if that makes sense.
It sounds a little strange tosay that, but if I could just
share a little personal stuff.
So, when I was nine years old,my oldest sister, who I adored,
I, she was.
Like a second mom to me.
She died very suddenly.
(11:04):
Um, when she contracted spinalmeningitis, she had gone into a
coma and my parents had to makea decision that was horrendous,
which was to remove her fromlife support.
And she, she actually died onValentine's Day and when I was a
fourth grader and.
It was probably one of thehardest things I had ever
experienced.
Of course, at nine you don'treally experience a lot of that
(11:26):
stuff by that point.
And it was a handful of yearslater that my next oldest
sister, her husband, took hisown life.
Um, he had been, I mean now wecan say, looking back,'cause I
was a teenager at that point, 15loved him.
He was the brother I never had.
Um, but.
(11:47):
He had PTSD at a time when theyweren't talking about that in
the seventies.
And he had clinical depression,but both of those early losses
really shaped who I became.
And I was old before my years,and so clinical psychology was a
pathway that opened up.
My dad was a social worker andhe and I would go on these
(12:09):
walks.
He would say, you know, you justget life for a teenager.
I don't understand how you knowthis stuff, but you know, when,
when you survive some of themost devastating events of life,
you realize how tenuous it is.
At least I did.
Vona Johnson (12:24):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Richelle (12:25):
And so I took it very seriously.
But my, my goal became to try toprevent anyone else.
From experiencing an untimelydeath of suicide, which is why I
chose the path of clinicalpsychology.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so anyway, that, that waspart of my story.
But grief has been in and out ofmy life throughout my years and
(12:47):
just like anybody else, right?
Mm-hmm.
You know, there's more than 40types of losses that a human can
experience in their lives, andthat would bring about grief
and, you know, so I have acancer story in there.
You know, when I was in myforties, I had breast cancer
and, um, I lost a sister rightafter I retired from a, my
(13:08):
position just before I startedmy coaching business, she died
of cancer.
And then, um, in 2021, when.
COVID seemed to be on, on the,you know, finally getting
better.
Um, both of my parentscontracted at the same time.
My, my mom died in ICU my dad,three weeks later.
(13:30):
He had recovered actually fromCOVID, but I say he died of a
broken heart.
We had just celebrated their65th wedding anniversary just a
couple of months before they gotsick.
And it was in, ironically, atthat time.
When before I knew I was gonnabe facing a, a huge, huge loss
of my parents, that I wouldfound myself in a grief educator
(13:51):
program.
Vona Johnson (13:52):
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (13:52):
I knew that in this coaching realm, I was
encountering so many people thatwhat was holding them back from
living abundantly was loss.
I realized, and I think a lot ofit's because of my clinical
background and just how God isused and wired me, um, that I
knew that part of helping peopleto move forward in their lives
(14:15):
was to help unhook them from thepast through grief.
That, that that was what washolding them back.
And so after I lost my parents,it was about a year later, I
went through, um, this somethingcalled the grief recovery
method.
I encountered it and experiencedit for myself to heal I, it was
(14:37):
devastating, honestly, to loseboth of my parents.
I was so very close to them, andit was so unexpected.
It happened so quickly.
But this grief recovery methodwas phenomenal, and I went into
the training to become aspecialist, and since then, it's
been my passion and heart tohelp people get unstuck.
(15:02):
From unaddressed grief, whetherit's recent or it's long ago,
and so much of my work now is inthe grief recovery realm, and I
call it abundant emotionalfreedom because if we don't heal
from the grief of our losses, itbecomes an emotional burden.
(15:23):
And so to get free of that, boy,that's, that's where we can then
rebuild our lives.
And that's what my goal is tohelp people with.
Vona Johnson (15:33):
So one of the questions that I have is, uh, I
mean there's this perce, there'sthis perception out there that,
you know, if we have a loss.
You know, let's, let's spend acouple weeks dwell on it, cry
your tears, and move on.
Yep.
And we know that, that, get overit.
Yeah.
Come, come on.
(15:53):
Get, get back to life.
Let's do this.
Yeah.
And that's not how it works.
And everybody's path isdifferent.
Yeah.
But how, what are some of thesymptoms?
Whether it's we would beevaluating ourself that we
realize, oh man, that's why Ifeel the way I do.
Or if it's a loved one thatwe're seeing, what are some of
the symptoms we should bewatching for that may, may wanna
(16:18):
have us start having some ofthese conversations or look more
into it?
Dr. Richelle (16:23):
Well, I dunno if I would call'em symptoms as much
as just we're people.
They just lack joy.
Yeah.
It's like a spark has gone outof life.
Vona Johnson (16:38):
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (16:38):
And, and it can, it can show up in so many ways,
but oftentimes people will say,I, I don't know why, but I just
can't seem to find a path.
I can't figure out what I'msupposed to be doing now.
It, it can show up in so manyways in, relationship issues and
(16:59):
confidence problems.
Just feeling well, I keep usingthe word stuck because that,
that's what I hear so manypeople say.
I just feel so stuck.
Yeah.
I just don't know how to get myjoy.
We may not say, how do I get myjoy back?
Because some, some peoplehaven't, have never really
experienced joy, depending on ifthey have a lot of losses that
(17:19):
go back to childhood.
Vona Johnson (17:21):
Well, and I feel like from, from a Christian
standpoint, I wanna sit on thatfor a minute because I had a
conversation with a woman, andit's been years ago now, and we
were doing a bible studytogether and she, she made the
comment that.
People keep telling me that, youknow, I just need to get my joy
(17:43):
back.
And I, she's like, she was like,I just can't.
And I said, I wanna beg todiffer.
I said, you may not be walkingaround smiling and singing songs
all day long, but you are,you're living your life and
you're trusting Jesus.
And joy is different thanhappiness.
Right.
I mean, we can find hope in thatknowledge that we will be with
(18:07):
that individual again.
And I mean, so there's, is itlayers of joy or am I just flat
wrong?
Dr. Richelle (18:15):
Oh, no, I don't think you're, you're wrong.
However, I've been learning moreabout is there really, what is
the difference between happinessand joy?
Because I think we have kind of,as believers have said, well.
I don't have to be happy.
'cause that's based oncircumstances and joy is based
on, you know, the joy of theLord.
(18:36):
Right.
And yet I think both areimportant because what I've been
learning through some of mystudy is that happiness is God's
idea.
Vona Johnson (18:46):
Hmm.
Dr. Richelle (18:47):
And if happiness is his idea, then it's
important.
And yes, we can have joy, butwhen we're not happy.
It tends to take the color outof life.
Vona Johnson (19:03):
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Richelle (19:04):
And grief does that.
And so if someone says that I,you know, I don't have joy, I
would wanna just press in alittle bit and say, when you had
joy, what was different?
If they've had it before,they've been able to identify,
because that's always a clearsign to say, well, what happened
(19:25):
to your joy?
When did, when did it disappear?
Mm-hmm.
What, was there a pivotal momentor did it just gradually seem to
get grayer?
Because I think of joy asvibrant and colorful.
So I can tell you this though,Vona, that a hundred percent of
(19:46):
us are grievers.
Yeah, we may not be in an activeacute phase of grieving, but a
hundred percent of us haveexperienced losses of various
kinds, and it goes all the wayback to your childhood.
And I want you to think about itthis way.
I don't like when we were born,we were given a
Vona Johnson (20:06):
backpack.
Dr. Richelle (20:07):
As we go through life as a child, you know, all
the way up until we turn adult,different things happen along
the way that represent theending of something.
So for a little kid it might be,you know, we move to a different
house and I have differentfriends.
That could be the first griefsomebody encounters.
(20:28):
And if it isn't addressed, if itisn't worked through, if the
emotions aren't processed onsome level, they get converted
to either a rock.
A pebble or a boulder, dependingupon the intensity of that loss,
and it gets thrown in thebackpack.
And then you go through life.
And for some people they havetraumas.
They have true abuse, trueterrible things that happen that
(20:51):
maybe don't get addressed.
And those turn into rocks andthey get thrown into your
backpack.
Or you know, the things thatwill say, well, yeah, of course
you know you're gonna havefriends who will bully you.
I mean, that's normal.
All kids have.
But you know what?
Every one of those experienceswhere our hearts are broken, if
it doesn't get addressed andhealed, it gets converted to a
(21:13):
rock.
And so what ends up happening isby the time we get to adulthood,
some of us, our backpacks arebusting open at the seams.
And then we go into adulthoodand we experience all the stuff.
You know, maybe you get into thecollege of choice or you don't,
and you fail out, or yourboyfriend breaks up with you or
you get pregnant and you didn'tplan on it.
(21:35):
And you know, just think aboutall the things, the life
choices.
And if they don't get healed atthe time, we just toss'em in the
backpack until we get to a pointwhere it's like the proverbial
straw that breaks the camel'sback.
And that backpack now takes youunder.
Now it's time to empty out thebackpack and see what's in
(21:56):
there.
Vona Johnson (21:57):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Richelle (21:58):
Often what I have found with people, joy.
Joy was crushed along the way.
Vona Johnson (22:06):
All those rocks.
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (22:10):
And it could be a, a recent loss, you know, so a
gal that I've worked with wholost a child in a car accident,
she was a very strong believer.
Very strong believer the loss ofher child though led to a crisis
of faith and loss of trust in aGod that she believed in.
Vona Johnson (22:34):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Richelle (22:35):
And for her to move through this grieving,
she's had to name all of thelosses along the way and to be
able to see it wasn't just theloss of her child were, there
were many losses before that.
That she had ignored.
And so as we've emptied out thebackpack, she's grieving one by
(22:58):
one.
Vona Johnson (22:59):
Wow.
Dr. Richelle (23:00):
And getting lighter and finding purpose.
Her joy isn't fully backed, butwhat I will say is this is she's
finding a little bit of hope.
It's kind of like the lightturns on, you know, it's just
the candle in the dark.
It's a very dark room, and it'sall you need.
It's a little bit of candle.
Walking through the grievingprocess with the right tools
(23:23):
helps people to find their wayback to what is purposeful for
them.
And it may be very different, itmay be very different.
You know, we're in the holidaysright now.
Vona Johnson (23:35):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Richelle (23:36):
And you and I were just talking about recent
losses, um, since last Christmasand the holidays.
Look and feel different, and wecan't do things the way we once
did.
And we can't expect ourselves tofeel the way we once felt during
the holidays.
And it's okay.
It's okay to be where we are,
Vona Johnson (23:57):
so, so what are some things, if there's somebody
that's listening to this rightnow and they're really dreading
the holidays, maybe they haven'tput a tree up, maybe they, um.
You know, aren't making anyplans to be with anyone because
they just can't bear to, to eventhink about having a
(24:17):
conversation, which actually doit.
What are some things that theycould do to just help?
It's not gonna fix it, but maybejust make it a little lighter.
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (24:30):
Well, I think just recognizing that it's different
and it's okay to be where youare.
Vona Johnson (24:37):
Hmm.
Dr. Richelle (24:38):
And that in and of itself is a healing balm you can
apply to yourself is that I getto do this the way where I'm at.
I mean, to just be where I am.
Where I am today might be that Ican't put up a tree this year.
Yeah.
I'm not gonna send out a holidaycard.
(24:59):
I'm not going to bake this year.
I'm not gonna host.
I may or may not come to yourhome this year.
What I recommend to people asthey're facing holidays, because
let's face it, holidays in andof themselves are stressful.
Vona Johnson (25:14):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Richelle (25:14):
For most of us, even in the
Vona Johnson (25:16):
most joyful time.
Dr. Richelle (25:18):
Yes, I love Christmas, but it can be hard.
It's stressful and grieving isstressful.
Vona Johnson (25:27):
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (25:28):
So you combine the two of those together.
What do we need to do when we'rein a place of major stress is we
need.
To give ourselves space to feelwhat we feel and to do what we
need to do to take care ofourselves in those moments.
So I always like to recommend topeople, especially when it's
around gatherings, because Ithink there's often the
(25:50):
expectation, and in fact, youknow, if you're a griever,
somebody might say to you, well,you are not gonna be alone.
You will be with us.
And they're saying it becausethey're uncomfortable with your
grieving.
Okay?
Mm-hmm.
What we can say is, you know,thank you for being concerned
about me, but this is what I'mcomfortable doing this year and
(26:13):
have a plan A and a plan B.
You could the plan A could be,listen, I'll make a plan to
come, but I may not stay aslong.
I might make an appearance and Imay leave after 15, 20 minutes.
I may make that plan.
And plan B is I can't leave myhouse that day and I'm gonna
throw in a frozen pizza.
(26:37):
Just having a plan B for, formany people, they're able to do
plan A'cause they know whatthey're gonna do.
If Plan A just doesn't feelright.
Vona Johnson (26:46):
Hmm,
Dr. Richelle (26:47):
interesting.
Give yourself that freedom to bewhere you are.
There is no timeline forgrieving.
There is no one right way to doit.
Yeah, the right way is what youneed.
You need to feel your feelings.
And what I know is that feelingsaren't permanent.
You're not always gonna feelthis way.
(27:08):
So you might say, I'm not doingChristmas this year.
Guess what?
Holidays come around anotheryear, you know, 12 months from
now we'll be here again.
It's okay to say not this year.
It's, it's okay to say not yet.
Yet is a powerful word to say.
I, you know, it might be a fewyears.
(27:30):
I don't know what it's gonnalook like, but what I do like to
encourage people to think aboutis what is a ritual that will
bring you some peace?
Mm-hmm.
Now, one of the things that youand I were chatting about, I
think before we got on the callwas, um.
So people don't wanna mentionthe name of a loved one, right?
It's so, it's like, I'm afraidI'm gonna trigger your sadness
(27:52):
if I, you know, say his name.
The reality is most of us wantour loved ones to be mentioned
and be remembered.
And there's something beautifulwhen someone says that.
So let me just give you anexample.
Um, my, my closest friend'shusband died.
(28:13):
Very suddenly the day afterThanksgiving this year, and it's
just been a whirlwind of, youknow, she's suddenly a widow and
they had plans and you know, infact, you know, he, he had even
purchased the stuff to make the,you know, what is that checks
mix.
He just said, I've got these bigboxes of cereal, what I gonna do
with them?
You know, she doesn't wanna makeit.
(28:34):
So anyway, what I've been.
As her friend walking with herthrough this, I have really
encouraged her to say, look,what do you want to do?
Not what do you think you'resupposed to do?
Yeah, you don't have to do thisperfect.
You don't have to do this foranyone.
(28:57):
Let everyone do their own grieftheir way.
But what do you need?
And so and so this is what shedid.
She called up a neighbor who hadalready offered, if there's
anything I can do to help you,let me know.
She calls up her neighbor andsays, I've got three big boxes
of checks mix.
My husband was going to makechecks mix.
I don't wanna make it.
(29:18):
Would you be willing, I've gothis recipe.
Would you be willing to make itand then just share some of it
with me?
You keep the rest, but sharesome with me.
She says, I know that will meansomething to my family to have
that
Vona Johnson (29:29):
show.
That's very cool.
And so as, as we, um, when theshow releases, I'm a little
behind schedule.
We talked about that too.
And, and about the fact thatit's okay to alter our plans.
So dad died in August and thisweek.
(29:52):
We will, he will be celebratinghis first birthday in heaven.
And I wanna celebrate that and,and part of this conversation is
helping me do that.
But what it's also doing ishelping me realize that I have
people in my life that need tohear this conversation.
(30:12):
And so I'm going to challengethose of you who are listening
right now to jot down some namesof some people.
Who might need to hear thisconversation, and I'm gonna
challenge you to give yourselfpermission to let them do the
holidays the way that they needto this year.
Dr. Richelle (30:36):
Could I add to that a little bit?
Vona Johnson (30:38):
Of
Dr. Richelle (30:38):
course.
This is gonna sound prettyextreme, but I think give
yourself permission to cancel.
Vona Johnson (30:48):
Yeah,
Dr. Richelle (30:49):
give yourself permission to simplify this.
Permission is so powerfulbecause we are judgemental of
ourselves.
We are so hard on ourselves withour expectations, you know, and
just as my friends said, well,I, I know my, my kids and my
brothers, and they're allexpecting, and it's like, it's
(31:12):
not your job.
To fix their grief.
Your job is to take care of yourown and to say what you have
capacity for right now.
Yeah, they were all ready topull up the Christmas
decorations.
In fact, you know, in betweenthe death of her husband and the
funeral, which was a week later,her brothers had said, let us
(31:32):
bring up the Christmasdecorations.
And she said, no, no, I don'tknow what I wanna do, but it's
not happening before thisfuneral.
So what.
After the funeral, she askedthem to bring only up her
Christmas tree and decorationsand she said, I don't want any
help because this is what Mikeand I did together and I wanna
(31:53):
look at every ornament and Iwanna cry and I wanna, you know,
I wanna talk to him as I'm doingthese things because this is for
her, the ritual that has meaningto her.
And that's what I wanna sayabout ritual.
Is that as you're coming uponyour, you know, the, your dad's
(32:16):
first birthday in heaven, thinkabout how do you wanna honor
that.
For some, it's to say, let'shave a, you know, you gather
your family, let's just have amoment of silence.
Or maybe it's like, let's justhave a time of just remembering
and say his name and what's afavorite memory you've.
(32:40):
This may, you may never haveanother celebration like this
again or another honoring ormemorial, how you wanna define
that for yourself.
But this year gets to be whatwill be meaningful and
compassionate for yourself.
Vona Johnson (32:56):
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (32:57):
Let yourself.
Vona Johnson (32:59):
It matters.
I love that term of just giveyourself permission.
It's okay to do it differentlythan the world expects us to do
it.
Dr. Richelle (33:08):
Absolutely.
Vona Johnson (33:10):
And isn't that, you know, I, I, I feel like
that's just a microcosm of theworld today.
We, we don't, we don't give ourself permission to do the things
we really want to do.
Dr. Richelle (33:21):
We don't.
And if I could add to thatpermission, it's one other word.
It's trust.
Trust your choices.
You know, people will say, isanyone else feeling this way?
You know, oftentimes we'relooking for validation.
Am I crazy here?
'cause so often my friend hassaid several times, I feel like
(33:43):
I'm losing my mind.
Vona Johnson (33:44):
Hmm.
Dr. Richelle (33:45):
I'm not remembering things.
You know, I don't know how to dostuff.
And I said, your brain, yourbody is grieving.
This is foreign territory.
And give yourself the space.
And listen.
You may not be in, in the throesof early loss.
(34:07):
It may have happened years ago,and here we are in the holidays
and it's all as if it justhappened.
That loss just happened.
Let's remember.
The holidays are, they are, canbe triggers of memories, very
powerful memories, and it canbecome very powerful, very real,
(34:27):
very painful again.
And that's why we need to giveourself permission to say, this
is what I have capacity for thisyear.
Yeah, no more, no less.
Vona Johnson (34:38):
Yeah.
I, I just really, really lovethat.
So.
So, um.
If there's someone listening andthey're like, wow, wow, Dr.
Richelle really hit it for me.
I, I had no idea.
I really need to talk to her.
Or Do you have more resources?
Or whatever.
How, how can they find you?
(34:58):
I know that you have a new bookout that I think sounds like a
wonderful resource.
So tell us, tell us about someof those things, please.
Dr. Richelle (35:06):
Yeah.
Um, so the, the first thing thatI wrote was a little booklet I
have actually shared with you.
Um, yes.
Hope,
Vona Johnson (35:16):
and I have it over by my Bible, so I don't have it
right here to hand.
Okay.
So, but,
Dr. Richelle (35:20):
but it, it, it's, yeah, there you go.
Journey through Grief and Loss,which really captures the story
of my life, but moreimportantly, how I found hope
and what's brought.
It's helped me to rebuild mylife after loss and, you know, a
life of purpose and meaning,which is what my mission is for
(35:43):
other people.
Um, in that I also introducepeople to what I do, which is
the grief recovery method, andit is a step-by-step process
that literally walks peoplethrough a guided eight week
program.
Of recovering from grief.
It's not therapy, actually callit an educational program, but
(36:04):
it is highly therapeutic andI've been doing this now for,
um, two and a half years and Ihave never experienced something
that's so life transforming forpeople as what I call abundant
emotional freedom.
It's using the grief recoverymethod.
So, um, if you or someone youknow is.
(36:26):
Walking through a time of lossof any kind.
Again, it's not just death, it'smore than 40 kinds of losses in
life.
Um, they can connect with methrough my website, um, and it's
dr Richelle.com and my name isspelled R-I-C-H-E-L-L-E.
I was supposed to be a Richard.
They quickly changed me toRichelle.
(36:49):
So it's D-R-R-I-C-H-E-L-L-E com.
Um.
And on there, I, you know, Ihave many ways to connect with
me, but, um, there's a littlequiz you can take, what's
blocking your abundant life.
Um, just a little quiz.
That's a good place to help yousee where you are.
And if you'd like to connectafter that, we'll have a
(37:10):
conversation and just see ifwhere you are is what I can help
you with.
Um, that's my greatest joy.
And then the book that I justreleased, um, is a full book,
um, called Abundance Soul.
Daily meditations for aflourishing life.
And, um, you can find that alsoon my website.
Um, but uh, that is reallyabout, again, a process that
(37:32):
I've been learning, teaching,living is how do we care for our
souls?
Because I believe that the pathto abundant life is.
Caring for your soul, and aswomen in particular, we tend to
be much better at caring forothers and putting ourselves
last.
(37:53):
Jesus really actually hasflipped that on its head and
says, Uhuh care for your soulbecause loving your neighbor
comes after you love yourself.
And, and we source that love,obviously, from God and not from
the world.
Vona Johnson (38:10):
So I'm gonna pop in here because my first podcast
was called Reviving the Soul,and, and it was based on Psalm
19 (38:19):
7-10.
The law of the Lord is perfect.
Reviving the soul, the decreesof the Lord are trustworthy,
making wise, the simple, thecommandments of the Lord are
right, bringing joy to theheart.
The commandments of the Lord areclear.
Giving insight to life,reverence for the Lord is pure
(38:40):
lasting forever.
The laws of the Lord are true.
Each one is fair.
They are more desirable.
They are more desirable thangold, even the finest gold.
Beautiful.
I love that.
Those verses just,
Dr. Richelle (38:55):
yes.
Psalm 19 (38:55):
7-10?
Vona Johnson (38:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (39:00):
Before we end, I have a little gift I'd like to
share for your listeners and,and it's just a short grounding
exercise that I would like tooffer.
It takes just about a minute.
Okay.
But I really believe that thiswill be something they can take
with them and we can all use itas we're going into the holidays
right now.
(39:20):
So take a moment to pause if itfeels comfortable.
You'll see what I do.
I place my hand over my heart,take a short breath in, and a
short breath out.
Again, breathe in and out.
(39:47):
Now quietly name what's true foryou today.
You don't need the right words.
One feeling is enough and askyourself, what do I need most
this holiday season?
Let whatever comes up be okay.
(40:11):
Now say this to yourself.
Silently or even out loud.
Grief has no timeline.
I'm not behind.
I'm meeting this season ashonestly as I can think of one
(40:32):
small act of kindness you canoffer yourself.
Maybe resting more, saying no.
Leaving early or creating aquiet moment of remembrance.
Take one more slow breath.
(40:59):
And remember, you don't have todo the holidays, right, you get
to do them honestly.
Vona Johnson (41:11):
That is so, so beautiful.
Thank you.
Yes.
And that's a perfect way to endthis conversation, my friend.
It is.
It is so wonderful to reconnectwith you.
Dr. Richelle (41:24):
Yes, I've loved it.
This has been a greatconversation, Vona and thank you
for the work you're doing in the
Vona Johnson (41:29):
world.
Wow.
It's interesting how manyparallels there really are.
Uh, between the work we're doingand it's also interesting that,
that we really got connected as,I mean, just before you lost
your parents and I was.
Right there in that group.
Yes.
As you were walking throughthat.
So, um, God is so good and hejust brings us people in our
(41:54):
lives.
Um, so I think, you know, mylast word of advice is to always
be looking for those people thatGod had brought to you because
they're there for a reason.
Amen.
So, any last thoughts before yousay goodbye?
Dr. Richelle (42:11):
Be good to yourself.
Vona Johnson (42:13):
Hmm.
Dr. Richelle (42:13):
And I say that to you because you are also
carrying the weight of loss likemost of us are.
Vona Johnson (42:21):
Sister.
So anyway, thank you my friend.
This has been so lovely.
Dr. Richelle (42:25):
Yes.
I loved it.
Thank you.
Wasn't that just reallyinteresting?
I just wanna thank Dr.
Michelle for coming today.
That was really helpful for meas an individual and I pray that
it is helpful for you as well.
If you know someone who may beexperiencing grief or just even
sadness or loneliness, Iencourage you to share this with
them This concludes season twoof Courageous Retirement.
(42:48):
Come back in two weeks.
On January 1st.
We are gonna kick off seasonthree right here at Courageous
Retirement.
So have a blessed holiday seasonthank you.
God bless.
Nearly half of the Americanpopulation feel lonely or a
sense of loss over the holidays.
36 to 40% of them don't evencelebrate the holidays because
of the grief they'reexperiencing now.
Grief comes in many forms andit's caused by many different
things.
It's not always the death of aloved one that causes grief.
Today I have a very specialguest on my show.
(00:26):
Dr.
Richelle is a clinicalpsychologist and we are going to
take a dive into theconversation about grief.
Stick around to the very endwhere she's gonna give some
practical tips on what you cando to head off your grief over
the holidays; and truly anytime.
Speaker (00:41):
Do you fear?
What lies beyond retirement?
What if it's a gateway to a lifefilled with purpose, meaning,
and adventure rather than anend?
Discover peace and fulfillmentas you boldly enter this new
chapter in CourageousRetirement, a Christian podcast.
I'm your host, author, and coachVona Johnson.
Let's get started.
Vona Johnson (01:00):
Hey, Richelle, I just wanna thank you so much for
joining us today.
I think releasing this rightbefore the holidays, is, is no
coincidence.
I think that this is a messagethat I believe a lot of people
need to hear.
We are going to talk about griefand we've, we've been
(01:21):
chit-chatting here before I hitrecord.
And something you said is whereI really wanna start with this
because I feel like we shoulddefine grief.
It's different for everybody,but I love how you described
grief and I wanna start there.
We'll come back and fill in someof the gaps about who you are
and what you do, but let's startthere.
Dr. Richelle (01:43):
Yeah.
Grief is the reaction to a lossof any kind.
Yes.
And it.
Involves so many emotions.
Um, sometimes very conflictingemotions at the same time.
And that happens because we havefamiliar patterns in our lives.
(02:06):
We get used to things being acertain way, and then when they
come to an end or somethingstops them, sometimes abruptly,
sometimes gradually, sometimeswe've even welcomed them and we
chose them.
Yes.
But there comes a point.
When we're in that place of, ohmy word, things have changed and
(02:28):
I don't feel like this is aworld that I understand anymore.
My life feels out of sorts.
And depending on what the endingis, if it's a person you know,
through a death or arelationship.
Through divorce or breaking upbecause any ending of a
(02:52):
relationship, again, can bringabout a feeling of grief.
Or maybe it could be, I knowyou're in the whole retirement
realm.
Um, grief happens in retirementbecause things change is an
abrupt change in our day-to-dayroutines, and our identity is so
often tied to what we do andwhat we get.
(03:15):
Acknowledged for and what we getpaid for.
Vona Johnson (03:19):
Yes.
Dr. Richelle (03:19):
You know, and, and an ending.
And when you've been a mother ora parent for years and now your
kids are in their own lives,creating their own traditions,
that can bring about a feelingof grief and having a diagnosis,
um, of any kind where your bodyis no longer cooperating and
(03:42):
doing what.
You want it to do in the way itused to do it.
Aging.
Vona Johnson (03:48):
Yep.
Dr. Richelle (03:49):
Can bring about grieving.
Vona Johnson (03:52):
You know, the, another one that you haven't
touched on that I think isreally huge in our society, and
I don't really want to dive toodeep on this because, it could
be a whole separateconversation.
There is a lot of grieving offamilies who have walked away
from relationships, parentswhose children don't speak to
(04:13):
them anymore.
and that is just to me sodevastating that our world has
become so bifurcated that wecan't even just talk it through,
because, even with like death, Imean there was a finite end.
And you can deal with that, butthat not knowing, where they
(04:35):
are, if they'll ever be thereagain.
It's kinda like, I've alwaysthought, having a child
kidnapped or something like thatwould be so much worse.
Dr. Richelle (04:44):
Oh yeah.
Vona Johnson (04:44):
Yeah.
Grief is huge and I I loved howyou said that.
It's the broken heart.
Dr. Richelle (04:50):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
And, and I think.
So often in life, we, we look atthings from a problem
perspective, you know, so if, ifI have a problem, then the way
to approach a problem is to fixit.
And we come at that from acognitive or a mental
(05:11):
perspective, is I gotta figurethis out.
What?
I don't know why I am doing thisway.
What's wrong with me?
I need to do this differently.
Yes, the reality is grieving.
Isn't a broken mind, it's abroken heart, and what a broken
heart needs is space to heal.
It has a need to be witnessedand to just acknowledge where
(05:33):
you are that you're hurting.
Vona Johnson (05:36):
Hmm.
Dr. Richelle (05:37):
There's no bypassing that pain, although we
have lots of things we love todo to distract ourselves from
that pain.
In fact, there is an actual termwe call that.
It's called sterbs, S-T-E-R-B-Ssterb.
Short term energy relievingbehaviors.
(05:57):
Ah, so we have our favorites,right?
You know, so, um, Amazon,Amazon, um, Netflix.
Um, oh my gosh, this is a timeof year where we love food.
I mean, when don't we love food?
But, um, eating.
Yeah.
(06:17):
Drinking.
Um, you know, you can go downthe list of, of some of the, you
know, some are funny and someare actually downright scary
and, and, and tragic addictionsof, you know, using alcohol
drugs.
Vona Johnson (06:31):
Shopping.
Dr. Richelle (06:32):
Shopping.
Yeah.
Otherwise no, as retail therapy,right.
So, yeah, it's all the things wedo.
So think back when we were kids,and I dunno if this ever
happened to you, but therethere's a classic story of a
little girl who, um, you know,she was at the play on the
playground at school and, andthe girls, they, they rejected
(06:54):
her.
And so they, they wouldn't lether play with her.
And so she was devastated whenshe got home.
She's talking to her mom andshe's crying, and she said,
yeah, they, you know, theywouldn't let me play at recess.
And her mom says, oh, dear,dear, kind of pats her on the
head and says, I just made aplate of cookies here.
Have a cookie that'll make youfeel better.
Vona Johnson (07:15):
Right?
Dr. Richelle (07:16):
You know, and so, and again, well-meaning that's
not to, you know, dump on mom,but she's doing what many of us
have learned to do when they're,when you're feeling bad, is do
something to feel better quick.
And so what we do is that in amoment, sure.
A, a fresh baked cookie doestaste and feel good.
Comfort food feels good.
(07:38):
You know, looking at Amazon tosee what I wanna put into my
shopping cart feels good.
But when it becomes a substitutefor feeling what we feel now,
what's happening is what we'repushing down emotions that need
to be addressed and they need tobe experienced, and they need to
(07:59):
be expressed in healthy ways.
Because what people believe isthat if I just ignore it, it'll
go away.
But unfortunately, the pain ofany grief, your body stores it
and it will come out.
And oftentimes what people find,it comes out in the least
opportune times.
(08:20):
So where we kind of lose it.
Uh, what do you think road rageis?
I mean, more than likely theperson who's having road rage,
it's, that's just the, the tipoff.
But there's something brewingunderneath and that oftentimes
is what we're finding theculture of people who don't know
how to grieve, don't know what'shealthy to do about their, their
(08:42):
feelings attached to a loss.
Vona Johnson (08:45):
Hmm.
Yeah, that's good.
You know, um, you sent me a, ashort bio and normally on the
show I don't do a lot ofbiography stuff, um, because
we're just having conversations.
Yeah.
But I think it's important inthis conversation.
For people to know that thisjust isn't a couple of
(09:07):
girlfriends sitting aroundtalking about something that,
that we care about.
So would you just spend a littlebit of time talking about your
qualifications to be able totalk about this?
I think that's really importantat this point.
Dr. Richelle (09:20):
Yeah, I'd be happy to.
So there's.
There's the professional and thepersonal side to this.
So professionally, I've been aclinical psychologist, uh, since
1990.
That dates me quite a bit.
Vona Johnson (09:32):
Yeah.
This is a retirement show.
We're all in the same boat here.
Dr. Richelle (09:36):
There you go.
And, um, you know, my, mycareer's taken me on many
pathways, but, um, where I'vemost recently landed is that I
morphed into what I call as anabundant life coach.
And it's all about meetingpeople in their points of
(09:56):
transition, navigating acrossroads of sorts.
And it could be in any of thethings like I mentioned before,
you know, losses of all kinds,um, or maybe just opportunities.
But who am I now in?
What am I here for?
And what's next and what doesGod have for me and who am I
here to be?
All of those things.
(10:17):
So that's, that's what I've beendoing for the last, almost nine
years now, is helping peoplenavigate and to find out who
they are.
I mean, it's really identitybased so that they can live the
abundant life God calls them to,but about, four or five years
ago, I was transitioning intodoing more grief work and
(10:43):
interestingly enough, grief hasalways been, an area of passion,
if that makes sense.
It sounds a little strange tosay that, but if I could just
share a little personal stuff.
So, when I was nine years old,my oldest sister, who I adored,
I, she was.
Like a second mom to me.
She died very suddenly.
(11:04):
Um, when she contracted spinalmeningitis, she had gone into a
coma and my parents had to makea decision that was horrendous,
which was to remove her fromlife support.
And she, she actually died onValentine's Day and when I was a
fourth grader and.
It was probably one of thehardest things I had ever
experienced.
Of course, at nine you don'treally experience a lot of that
(11:26):
stuff by that point.
And it was a handful of yearslater that my next oldest
sister, her husband, took hisown life.
Um, he had been, I mean now wecan say, looking back,'cause I
was a teenager at that point, 15loved him.
He was the brother I never had.
Um, but.
(11:47):
He had PTSD at a time when theyweren't talking about that in
the seventies.
And he had clinical depression,but both of those early losses
really shaped who I became.
And I was old before my years,and so clinical psychology was a
pathway that opened up.
My dad was a social worker andhe and I would go on these
(12:09):
walks.
He would say, you know, you justget life for a teenager.
I don't understand how you knowthis stuff, but you know, when,
when you survive some of themost devastating events of life,
you realize how tenuous it is.
At least I did.
Vona Johnson (12:24):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Richelle (12:25):
And so I took it very seriously.
But my, my goal became to try toprevent anyone else.
From experiencing an untimelydeath of suicide, which is why I
chose the path of clinicalpsychology.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so anyway, that, that waspart of my story.
But grief has been in and out ofmy life throughout my years and
(12:47):
just like anybody else, right?
Mm-hmm.
You know, there's more than 40types of losses that a human can
experience in their lives, andthat would bring about grief
and, you know, so I have acancer story in there.
You know, when I was in myforties, I had breast cancer
and, um, I lost a sister rightafter I retired from a, my
(13:08):
position just before I startedmy coaching business, she died
of cancer.
And then, um, in 2021, when.
COVID seemed to be on, on the,you know, finally getting
better.
Um, both of my parentscontracted at the same time.
My, my mom died in ICU my dad,three weeks later.
(13:30):
He had recovered actually fromCOVID, but I say he died of a
broken heart.
We had just celebrated their65th wedding anniversary just a
couple of months before they gotsick.
And it was in, ironically, atthat time.
When before I knew I was gonnabe facing a, a huge, huge loss
of my parents, that I wouldfound myself in a grief educator
(13:51):
program.
Vona Johnson (13:52):
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (13:52):
I knew that in this coaching realm, I was
encountering so many people thatwhat was holding them back from
living abundantly was loss.
I realized, and I think a lot ofit's because of my clinical
background and just how God isused and wired me, um, that I
knew that part of helping peopleto move forward in their lives
(14:15):
was to help unhook them from thepast through grief.
That, that that was what washolding them back.
And so after I lost my parents,it was about a year later, I
went through, um, this somethingcalled the grief recovery
method.
I encountered it and experiencedit for myself to heal I, it was
(14:37):
devastating, honestly, to loseboth of my parents.
I was so very close to them, andit was so unexpected.
It happened so quickly.
But this grief recovery methodwas phenomenal, and I went into
the training to become aspecialist, and since then, it's
been my passion and heart tohelp people get unstuck.
(15:02):
From unaddressed grief, whetherit's recent or it's long ago,
and so much of my work now is inthe grief recovery realm, and I
call it abundant emotionalfreedom because if we don't heal
from the grief of our losses, itbecomes an emotional burden.
(15:23):
And so to get free of that, boy,that's, that's where we can then
rebuild our lives.
And that's what my goal is tohelp people with.
Vona Johnson (15:33):
So one of the questions that I have is, uh, I
mean there's this perce, there'sthis perception out there that,
you know, if we have a loss.
You know, let's, let's spend acouple weeks dwell on it, cry
your tears, and move on.
Yep.
And we know that, that, get overit.
Yeah.
Come, come on.
(15:53):
Get, get back to life.
Let's do this.
Yeah.
And that's not how it works.
And everybody's path isdifferent.
Yeah.
But how, what are some of thesymptoms?
Whether it's we would beevaluating ourself that we
realize, oh man, that's why Ifeel the way I do.
Or if it's a loved one thatwe're seeing, what are some of
the symptoms we should bewatching for that may, may wanna
(16:18):
have us start having some ofthese conversations or look more
into it?
Dr. Richelle (16:23):
Well, I dunno if I would call'em symptoms as much
as just we're people.
They just lack joy.
Yeah.
It's like a spark has gone outof life.
Vona Johnson (16:38):
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (16:38):
And, and it can, it can show up in so many ways,
but oftentimes people will say,I, I don't know why, but I just
can't seem to find a path.
I can't figure out what I'msupposed to be doing now.
It, it can show up in so manyways in, relationship issues and
(16:59):
confidence problems.
Just feeling well, I keep usingthe word stuck because that,
that's what I hear so manypeople say.
I just feel so stuck.
Yeah.
I just don't know how to get myjoy.
We may not say, how do I get myjoy back?
Because some, some peoplehaven't, have never really
experienced joy, depending on ifthey have a lot of losses that
(17:19):
go back to childhood.
Vona Johnson (17:21):
Well, and I feel like from, from a Christian
standpoint, I wanna sit on thatfor a minute because I had a
conversation with a woman, andit's been years ago now, and we
were doing a bible studytogether and she, she made the
comment that.
People keep telling me that, youknow, I just need to get my joy
(17:43):
back.
And I, she's like, she was like,I just can't.
And I said, I wanna beg todiffer.
I said, you may not be walkingaround smiling and singing songs
all day long, but you are,you're living your life and
you're trusting Jesus.
And joy is different thanhappiness.
Right.
I mean, we can find hope in thatknowledge that we will be with
(18:07):
that individual again.
And I mean, so there's, is itlayers of joy or am I just flat
wrong?
Dr. Richelle (18:15):
Oh, no, I don't think you're, you're wrong.
However, I've been learning moreabout is there really, what is
the difference between happinessand joy?
Because I think we have kind of,as believers have said, well.
I don't have to be happy.
'cause that's based oncircumstances and joy is based
on, you know, the joy of theLord.
(18:36):
Right.
And yet I think both areimportant because what I've been
learning through some of mystudy is that happiness is God's
idea.
Vona Johnson (18:46):
Hmm.
Dr. Richelle (18:47):
And if happiness is his idea, then it's
important.
And yes, we can have joy, butwhen we're not happy.
It tends to take the color outof life.
Vona Johnson (19:03):
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Richelle (19:04):
And grief does that.
And so if someone says that I,you know, I don't have joy, I
would wanna just press in alittle bit and say, when you had
joy, what was different?
If they've had it before,they've been able to identify,
because that's always a clearsign to say, well, what happened
(19:25):
to your joy?
When did, when did it disappear?
Mm-hmm.
What, was there a pivotal momentor did it just gradually seem to
get grayer?
Because I think of joy asvibrant and colorful.
So I can tell you this though,Vona, that a hundred percent of
(19:46):
us are grievers.
Yeah, we may not be in an activeacute phase of grieving, but a
hundred percent of us haveexperienced losses of various
kinds, and it goes all the wayback to your childhood.
And I want you to think about itthis way.
I don't like when we were born,we were given a
Vona Johnson (20:06):
backpack.
Dr. Richelle (20:07):
As we go through life as a child, you know, all
the way up until we turn adult,different things happen along
the way that represent theending of something.
So for a little kid it might be,you know, we move to a different
house and I have differentfriends.
That could be the first griefsomebody encounters.
(20:28):
And if it isn't addressed, if itisn't worked through, if the
emotions aren't processed onsome level, they get converted
to either a rock.
A pebble or a boulder, dependingupon the intensity of that loss,
and it gets thrown in thebackpack.
And then you go through life.
And for some people they havetraumas.
They have true abuse, trueterrible things that happen that
(20:51):
maybe don't get addressed.
And those turn into rocks andthey get thrown into your
backpack.
Or you know, the things thatwill say, well, yeah, of course
you know you're gonna havefriends who will bully you.
I mean, that's normal.
All kids have.
But you know what?
Every one of those experienceswhere our hearts are broken, if
it doesn't get addressed andhealed, it gets converted to a
(21:13):
rock.
And so what ends up happening isby the time we get to adulthood,
some of us, our backpacks arebusting open at the seams.
And then we go into adulthoodand we experience all the stuff.
You know, maybe you get into thecollege of choice or you don't,
and you fail out, or yourboyfriend breaks up with you or
you get pregnant and you didn'tplan on it.
(21:35):
And you know, just think aboutall the things, the life
choices.
And if they don't get healed atthe time, we just toss'em in the
backpack until we get to a pointwhere it's like the proverbial
straw that breaks the camel'sback.
And that backpack now takes youunder.
Now it's time to empty out thebackpack and see what's in
(21:56):
there.
Vona Johnson (21:57):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Richelle (21:58):
Often what I have found with people, joy.
Joy was crushed along the way.
Vona Johnson (22:06):
All those rocks.
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (22:10):
And it could be a, a recent loss, you know, so a
gal that I've worked with wholost a child in a car accident,
she was a very strong believer.
Very strong believer the loss ofher child though led to a crisis
of faith and loss of trust in aGod that she believed in.
Vona Johnson (22:34):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Richelle (22:35):
And for her to move through this grieving,
she's had to name all of thelosses along the way and to be
able to see it wasn't just theloss of her child were, there
were many losses before that.
That she had ignored.
And so as we've emptied out thebackpack, she's grieving one by
(22:58):
one.
Vona Johnson (22:59):
Wow.
Dr. Richelle (23:00):
And getting lighter and finding purpose.
Her joy isn't fully backed, butwhat I will say is this is she's
finding a little bit of hope.
It's kind of like the lightturns on, you know, it's just
the candle in the dark.
It's a very dark room, and it'sall you need.
It's a little bit of candle.
Walking through the grievingprocess with the right tools
(23:23):
helps people to find their wayback to what is purposeful for
them.
And it may be very different, itmay be very different.
You know, we're in the holidaysright now.
Vona Johnson (23:35):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Richelle (23:36):
And you and I were just talking about recent
losses, um, since last Christmasand the holidays.
Look and feel different, and wecan't do things the way we once
did.
And we can't expect ourselves tofeel the way we once felt during
the holidays.
And it's okay.
It's okay to be where we are,
Vona Johnson (23:57):
so, so what are some things, if there's somebody
that's listening to this rightnow and they're really dreading
the holidays, maybe they haven'tput a tree up, maybe they, um.
You know, aren't making anyplans to be with anyone because
they just can't bear to, to eventhink about having a
(24:17):
conversation, which actually doit.
What are some things that theycould do to just help?
It's not gonna fix it, but maybejust make it a little lighter.
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (24:30):
Well, I think just recognizing that it's different
and it's okay to be where youare.
Vona Johnson (24:37):
Hmm.
Dr. Richelle (24:38):
And that in and of itself is a healing balm you can
apply to yourself is that I getto do this the way where I'm at.
I mean, to just be where I am.
Where I am today might be that Ican't put up a tree this year.
Yeah.
I'm not gonna send out a holidaycard.
(24:59):
I'm not going to bake this year.
I'm not gonna host.
I may or may not come to yourhome this year.
What I recommend to people asthey're facing holidays, because
let's face it, holidays in andof themselves are stressful.
Vona Johnson (25:14):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Richelle (25:14):
For most of us, even in the
Vona Johnson (25:16):
most joyful time.
Dr. Richelle (25:18):
Yes, I love Christmas, but it can be hard.
It's stressful and grieving isstressful.
Vona Johnson (25:27):
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (25:28):
So you combine the two of those together.
What do we need to do when we'rein a place of major stress is we
need.
To give ourselves space to feelwhat we feel and to do what we
need to do to take care ofourselves in those moments.
So I always like to recommend topeople, especially when it's
around gatherings, because Ithink there's often the
(25:50):
expectation, and in fact, youknow, if you're a griever,
somebody might say to you, well,you are not gonna be alone.
You will be with us.
And they're saying it becausethey're uncomfortable with your
grieving.
Okay?
Mm-hmm.
What we can say is, you know,thank you for being concerned
about me, but this is what I'mcomfortable doing this year and
(26:13):
have a plan A and a plan B.
You could the plan A could be,listen, I'll make a plan to
come, but I may not stay aslong.
I might make an appearance and Imay leave after 15, 20 minutes.
I may make that plan.
And plan B is I can't leave myhouse that day and I'm gonna
throw in a frozen pizza.
(26:37):
Just having a plan B for, formany people, they're able to do
plan A'cause they know whatthey're gonna do.
If Plan A just doesn't feelright.
Vona Johnson (26:46):
Hmm,
Dr. Richelle (26:47):
interesting.
Give yourself that freedom to bewhere you are.
There is no timeline forgrieving.
There is no one right way to doit.
Yeah, the right way is what youneed.
You need to feel your feelings.
And what I know is that feelingsaren't permanent.
You're not always gonna feelthis way.
(27:08):
So you might say, I'm not doingChristmas this year.
Guess what?
Holidays come around anotheryear, you know, 12 months from
now we'll be here again.
It's okay to say not this year.
It's, it's okay to say not yet.
Yet is a powerful word to say.
I, you know, it might be a fewyears.
(27:30):
I don't know what it's gonnalook like, but what I do like to
encourage people to think aboutis what is a ritual that will
bring you some peace?
Mm-hmm.
Now, one of the things that youand I were chatting about, I
think before we got on the callwas, um.
So people don't wanna mentionthe name of a loved one, right?
It's so, it's like, I'm afraidI'm gonna trigger your sadness
(27:52):
if I, you know, say his name.
The reality is most of us wantour loved ones to be mentioned
and be remembered.
And there's something beautifulwhen someone says that.
So let me just give you anexample.
Um, my, my closest friend'shusband died.
(28:13):
Very suddenly the day afterThanksgiving this year, and it's
just been a whirlwind of, youknow, she's suddenly a widow and
they had plans and you know, infact, you know, he, he had even
purchased the stuff to make the,you know, what is that checks
mix.
He just said, I've got these bigboxes of cereal, what I gonna do
with them?
You know, she doesn't wanna makeit.
(28:34):
So anyway, what I've been.
As her friend walking with herthrough this, I have really
encouraged her to say, look,what do you want to do?
Not what do you think you'resupposed to do?
Yeah, you don't have to do thisperfect.
You don't have to do this foranyone.
(28:57):
Let everyone do their own grieftheir way.
But what do you need?
And so and so this is what shedid.
She called up a neighbor who hadalready offered, if there's
anything I can do to help you,let me know.
She calls up her neighbor andsays, I've got three big boxes
of checks mix.
My husband was going to makechecks mix.
I don't wanna make it.
(29:18):
Would you be willing, I've gothis recipe.
Would you be willing to make itand then just share some of it
with me?
You keep the rest, but sharesome with me.
She says, I know that will meansomething to my family to have
that
Vona Johnson (29:29):
show.
That's very cool.
And so as, as we, um, when theshow releases, I'm a little
behind schedule.
We talked about that too.
And, and about the fact thatit's okay to alter our plans.
So dad died in August and thisweek.
(29:52):
We will, he will be celebratinghis first birthday in heaven.
And I wanna celebrate that and,and part of this conversation is
helping me do that.
But what it's also doing ishelping me realize that I have
people in my life that need tohear this conversation.
(30:12):
And so I'm going to challengethose of you who are listening
right now to jot down some namesof some people.
Who might need to hear thisconversation, and I'm gonna
challenge you to give yourselfpermission to let them do the
holidays the way that they needto this year.
Dr. Richelle (30:36):
Could I add to that a little bit?
Vona Johnson (30:38):
Of
Dr. Richelle (30:38):
course.
This is gonna sound prettyextreme, but I think give
yourself permission to cancel.
Vona Johnson (30:48):
Yeah,
Dr. Richelle (30:49):
give yourself permission to simplify this.
Permission is so powerfulbecause we are judgemental of
ourselves.
We are so hard on ourselves withour expectations, you know, and
just as my friends said, well,I, I know my, my kids and my
brothers, and they're allexpecting, and it's like, it's
(31:12):
not your job.
To fix their grief.
Your job is to take care of yourown and to say what you have
capacity for right now.
Yeah, they were all ready topull up the Christmas
decorations.
In fact, you know, in betweenthe death of her husband and the
funeral, which was a week later,her brothers had said, let us
(31:32):
bring up the Christmasdecorations.
And she said, no, no, I don'tknow what I wanna do, but it's
not happening before thisfuneral.
So what.
After the funeral, she askedthem to bring only up her
Christmas tree and decorationsand she said, I don't want any
help because this is what Mikeand I did together and I wanna
(31:53):
look at every ornament and Iwanna cry and I wanna, you know,
I wanna talk to him as I'm doingthese things because this is for
her, the ritual that has meaningto her.
And that's what I wanna sayabout ritual.
Is that as you're coming uponyour, you know, the, your dad's
(32:16):
first birthday in heaven, thinkabout how do you wanna honor
that.
For some, it's to say, let'shave a, you know, you gather
your family, let's just have amoment of silence.
Or maybe it's like, let's justhave a time of just remembering
and say his name and what's afavorite memory you've.
(32:40):
This may, you may never haveanother celebration like this
again or another honoring ormemorial, how you wanna define
that for yourself.
But this year gets to be whatwill be meaningful and
compassionate for yourself.
Vona Johnson (32:56):
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (32:57):
Let yourself.
Vona Johnson (32:59):
It matters.
I love that term of just giveyourself permission.
It's okay to do it differentlythan the world expects us to do
it.
Dr. Richelle (33:08):
Absolutely.
Vona Johnson (33:10):
And isn't that, you know, I, I, I feel like
that's just a microcosm of theworld today.
We, we don't, we don't give ourself permission to do the things
we really want to do.
Dr. Richelle (33:21):
We don't.
And if I could add to thatpermission, it's one other word.
It's trust.
Trust your choices.
You know, people will say, isanyone else feeling this way?
You know, oftentimes we'relooking for validation.
Am I crazy here?
'cause so often my friend hassaid several times, I feel like
(33:43):
I'm losing my mind.
Vona Johnson (33:44):
Hmm.
Dr. Richelle (33:45):
I'm not remembering things.
You know, I don't know how to dostuff.
And I said, your brain, yourbody is grieving.
This is foreign territory.
And give yourself the space.
And listen.
You may not be in, in the throesof early loss.
(34:07):
It may have happened years ago,and here we are in the holidays
and it's all as if it justhappened.
That loss just happened.
Let's remember.
The holidays are, they are, canbe triggers of memories, very
powerful memories, and it canbecome very powerful, very real,
(34:27):
very painful again.
And that's why we need to giveourself permission to say, this
is what I have capacity for thisyear.
Yeah, no more, no less.
Vona Johnson (34:38):
Yeah.
I, I just really, really lovethat.
So.
So, um.
If there's someone listening andthey're like, wow, wow, Dr.
Richelle really hit it for me.
I, I had no idea.
I really need to talk to her.
Or Do you have more resources?
Or whatever.
How, how can they find you?
(34:58):
I know that you have a new bookout that I think sounds like a
wonderful resource.
So tell us, tell us about someof those things, please.
Dr. Richelle (35:06):
Yeah.
Um, so the, the first thing thatI wrote was a little booklet I
have actually shared with you.
Um, yes.
Hope,
Vona Johnson (35:16):
and I have it over by my Bible, so I don't have it
right here to hand.
Okay.
So, but,
Dr. Richelle (35:20):
but it, it, it's, yeah, there you go.
Journey through Grief and Loss,which really captures the story
of my life, but moreimportantly, how I found hope
and what's brought.
It's helped me to rebuild mylife after loss and, you know, a
life of purpose and meaning,which is what my mission is for
(35:43):
other people.
Um, in that I also introducepeople to what I do, which is
the grief recovery method, andit is a step-by-step process
that literally walks peoplethrough a guided eight week
program.
Of recovering from grief.
It's not therapy, actually callit an educational program, but
(36:04):
it is highly therapeutic andI've been doing this now for,
um, two and a half years and Ihave never experienced something
that's so life transforming forpeople as what I call abundant
emotional freedom.
It's using the grief recoverymethod.
So, um, if you or someone youknow is.
(36:26):
Walking through a time of lossof any kind.
Again, it's not just death, it'smore than 40 kinds of losses in
life.
Um, they can connect with methrough my website, um, and it's
dr Richelle.com and my name isspelled R-I-C-H-E-L-L-E.
I was supposed to be a Richard.
They quickly changed me toRichelle.
(36:49):
So it's D-R-R-I-C-H-E-L-L-E com.
Um.
And on there, I, you know, Ihave many ways to connect with
me, but, um, there's a littlequiz you can take, what's
blocking your abundant life.
Um, just a little quiz.
That's a good place to help yousee where you are.
And if you'd like to connectafter that, we'll have a
(37:10):
conversation and just see ifwhere you are is what I can help
you with.
Um, that's my greatest joy.
And then the book that I justreleased, um, is a full book,
um, called Abundance Soul.
Daily meditations for aflourishing life.
And, um, you can find that alsoon my website.
Um, but uh, that is reallyabout, again, a process that
(37:32):
I've been learning, teaching,living is how do we care for our
souls?
Because I believe that the pathto abundant life is.
Caring for your soul, and aswomen in particular, we tend to
be much better at caring forothers and putting ourselves
last.
(37:53):
Jesus really actually hasflipped that on its head and
says, Uhuh care for your soulbecause loving your neighbor
comes after you love yourself.
And, and we source that love,obviously, from God and not from
the world.
Vona Johnson (38:10):
So I'm gonna pop in here because my first podcast
was called Reviving the Soul,and, and it was based on Psalm
19 (38:19):
7-10.
The law of the Lord is perfect.
Reviving the soul, the decreesof the Lord are trustworthy,
making wise, the simple, thecommandments of the Lord are
right, bringing joy to theheart.
The commandments of the Lord areclear.
Giving insight to life,reverence for the Lord is pure
(38:40):
lasting forever.
The laws of the Lord are true.
Each one is fair.
They are more desirable.
They are more desirable thangold, even the finest gold.
Beautiful.
I love that.
Those verses just,
Dr. Richelle (38:55):
yes.
Psalm 19 (38:55):
7-10?
Vona Johnson (38:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Richelle (39:00):
Before we end, I have a little gift I'd like to
share for your listeners and,and it's just a short grounding
exercise that I would like tooffer.
It takes just about a minute.
Okay.
But I really believe that thiswill be something they can take
with them and we can all use itas we're going into the holidays
right now.
(39:20):
So take a moment to pause if itfeels comfortable.
You'll see what I do.
I place my hand over my heart,take a short breath in, and a
short breath out.
Again, breathe in and out.
(39:47):
Now quietly name what's true foryou today.
You don't need the right words.
One feeling is enough and askyourself, what do I need most
this holiday season?
Let whatever comes up be okay.
(40:11):
Now say this to yourself.
Silently or even out loud.
Grief has no timeline.
I'm not behind.
I'm meeting this season ashonestly as I can think of one
(40:32):
small act of kindness you canoffer yourself.
Maybe resting more, saying no.
Leaving early or creating aquiet moment of remembrance.
Take one more slow breath.
(40:59):
And remember, you don't have todo the holidays, right, you get
to do them honestly.
Vona Johnson (41:11):
That is so, so beautiful.
Thank you.
Yes.
And that's a perfect way to endthis conversation, my friend.
It is.
It is so wonderful to reconnectwith you.
Dr. Richelle (41:24):
Yes, I've loved it.
This has been a greatconversation, Vona and thank you
for the work you're doing in the
Vona Johnson (41:29):
world.
Wow.
It's interesting how manyparallels there really are.
Uh, between the work we're doingand it's also interesting that,
that we really got connected as,I mean, just before you lost
your parents and I was.
Right there in that group.
Yes.
As you were walking throughthat.
So, um, God is so good and hejust brings us people in our
(41:54):
lives.
Um, so I think, you know, mylast word of advice is to always
be looking for those people thatGod had brought to you because
they're there for a reason.
Amen.
So, any last thoughts before yousay goodbye?
Dr. Richelle (42:11):
Be good to yourself.
Vona Johnson (42:13):
Hmm.
Dr. Richelle (42:13):
And I say that to you because you are also
carrying the weight of loss likemost of us are.
Vona Johnson (42:21):
Sister.
So anyway, thank you my friend.
This has been so lovely.
Dr. Richelle (42:25):
Yes.
I loved it.
Thank you.
Wasn't that just reallyinteresting?
I just wanna thank Dr.
Michelle for coming today.
That was really helpful for meas an individual and I pray that
it is helpful for you as well.
If you know someone who may beexperiencing grief or just even
sadness or loneliness, Iencourage you to share this with
them This concludes season twoof Courageous Retirement.
(42:48):
Come back in two weeks.
On January 1st.
We are gonna kick off seasonthree right here at Courageous
Retirement.
So have a blessed holiday seasonthank you.
God bless.
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