Asa West: The Enchanted Journey: Finding Your Way Through Tarot and Witchcraft

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The journey of a witch isn't a straight path—it winds, shifts, and transforms as we discover new tools, insights, and connections. In this soul-stirring conversation, author Asa West opens up about finding magic and meaning through both writing and witchcraft.

Asa shares the pivotal moment of discovering her mother's hidden tarot cards as a teenager, sparking a lifelong relationship with divination that evolved from frustration to fluency. She describes her breakthrough realization that came when she finally pushed the guidebook aside and learned to "read the cards like a comic strip," allowing them to tell their own stories rather than reciting memorized meanings. This approach transformed her practice and offers listeners a refreshing way to connect with their own cards.

We explore the limiting nature of witch labels in modern practice. While social media encourages practitioners to identify strictly as green witches, kitchen witches, or divination witches, Asa suggests a more fluid approach—embracing different aspects of practice as they call to us rather than boxing ourselves into rigid categories. "You can absolutely have a specialty," she explains, "but don't let it define your entire practice or your entire person."

The conversation takes a fascinating turn toward representation in tarot, with Asa recounting a touching reading where a client saw themselves truly reflected in a modern, inclusive deck—something impossible with traditional imagery. This moment highlights how contemporary decks are making spiritual tools more accessible and meaningful for diverse practitioners.

Whether you're new to tarot, questioning your path as a witch, or simply curious about how magic and creativity intertwine, this episode offers wisdom, practical advice, and permission to forge your own unique magical journey. Listen now to discover how embracing fluidity in your practice might unlock deeper connections to your craft.

For the mentioned article on the Last Unicorn: https://reactormag.com/becoming-molly-grue-how-i-found-an-unlikely-millennial-icon-in-the-last-unicorn/

For more on Asa: https://asawestauthor.com/

For more on Jenny: https://www.jennycbell.com/

Support the show

Connect with me here: https://www.jennycbell.com/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi witches and welcome to another Cozy Coven
chat.
I'm your host, Jenny C Bell,and today I have the absolute
joy of bringing you aconversation with Asa West.
She is so knowledgeable andthoughtful in all of her

(00:21):
responses, sort of like how Iimagined her right.
I discovered her when I readWitchblood Rising, which is such
a beautiful book.
It's Witchblood Rising AwakenMagic in a Modern World.
It's a collection of essays andthey all have a common thread
and they're all so relatable andit's a very vulnerable telling

(00:43):
of a witch's journey and youknow that's my passion here on
this podcast is the witch'sjourney and she really shares
that in this book.
So definitely recommend readingthis book.
Let me give you her officialbio.
Asa West is the author ofWitchblood Rising, which we
talked about, the Witch's Kinwhich she talks about in this
interview, and it's really I'mgoing to get it.

(01:04):
She really sold me on it.
It's really interesting way tolook at working with herbal and
animal and plant allies in anagnostic way.
So that already had me.
It's a new kind of way and FivePrinciples of Green Witchcraft,
and her work has appeared inthe Offing, joyland, gods and
Radicals and other publications.

(01:26):
She holds an MFA from the Iowa'sWriters Workshop and has been
covering feminism and mediasince 2007 under the name Julia
Glassman, as a journalist forthe Mary Sue and other outlets.
She covers everything fromMarvel movies to folk horror and
, of course, all things witchy.
You can find her online atasawestauthorcom and that's

(01:48):
A-S-A-W-E-S-T authorcom, and Ireally recommend checking out
her website.
She does tarot readings andthis conversation took a great
tarot turn or tarot if youprefer and we really talked
about her journey of discoveringher mom's hidden tarot cards in
her closet and where she is nowreading with more modern decks,

(02:13):
and oh, it was beautiful.
We could have probably chattedon tarot for hours more, so I
hope you enjoy this conversation.
I'd like to welcome Asa West tothe chat.
Asa, if you wouldn't mindbriefly introducing yourself for
those people that don't alreadyknow you.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yeah, hello, my name is Asa West.
I'm a writer, a witch, anartist, various things.
Do you want me to talk aboutthe book, or so I will say that
that's how I found you.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
I got Witchblood Rising mainly because of the
cover, and I know we're notsupposed to do that, but I do
that and I, you know, I wouldalways tell students when I was
an English teacher like it'sokay to choose a book by its
cover.
But then when I opened it upand I saw like the chapter, you
had one on the Morrigan or theMorrigan right, and everybody
and their mother is asking meall about her all the time and I

(03:09):
don't work with her.
I haven't.
I'm starting to learn about herand so it's like, oh well,
obviously I need to read thisbook.
But little did I know that Iwould identify so strongly with
this book.
You made me cry a couple times.
Now that you know you're a goodperson, still don't worry about
it.
You made me cry a couple times.
Now that you know you're a goodperson, still don't worry about

(03:31):
it.
You made me laugh.
But there were so many things,even down to your love for Loki,
that I was like we are, I feltlike a parallel and I really I
talked about this a lot.
A lot of books on witchcraftare for beginners, and not that
a beginner couldn't read this,but this I felt was like a book
for witches, like it's writtenby witch for witches, it's not
for people trying to convertthem to witchcraft.
It felt like our, like our soulcalling, like we're all.

(03:54):
We can all identify, I believe,with parts of your story, with
you know how vulnerable you tellyour stories and so, yeah, I
would love for you to share alittle bit about this one first.
And then I know you haveanother book which I don't have
a copy of, but we can also talkabout that one too.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, gosh Well.
So Witchblood Rising it is theproduct of about 10 years of
writing, you know, like justkind of like various articles
and essays and blog posts andthis and that's that had
accumulated over the years.
That you know.

(04:32):
I eventually realized like, oh,there's enough material in here
for a book, like that's prettycool.
You know, I've I've been awriter for as long as I've been
a witch, right?
So I think I discoveredwitchcraft and writing really
around the same time in my life,and for me the two have kind of
always gone together, you know.

(04:53):
So, like I go out into the world, I like I see this enchantment
in the world, I see this magic,I see these spirits, and the way
I process it is I write aboutit.
You know, I go home, I write inmy journal, I write a poem, a
story.
You know they're like this ishow I make sense of, of what I

(05:13):
encounter in the world, you know, and it's how I, it's how I try
to reach out to other peopletoo, right, like we all want
connection.
We none of us want to be theonly person experiencing
something, and so when I reachout into the world to see if
other people are experiencingwhat I am, it's through writing,
right?
So I'll write the story ofsomething that happened to me

(05:34):
and then, with any luck, someoneout there in the universe will
say like yes, like that happenedto me too, or that resonates
with me, and then I just I feellike okay, good it's you know,
it's not just me, right?

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, and so you've been a witch for how long?

Speaker 2 (05:54):
Because you said witchcraft and kind of writing
went together right, yeah, yeah,so high school-ish, um, I think
I started writing, you know,kind of like you know, freshman
year of high school and the 90sWicca revival movement I'm not
sure what we would even call itthat was really swelling up like

(06:14):
right around that time, rightLike all these movies were
coming out, all these shows,like Charmed the Craft, you know
, scott Cunning, like all, likeall of these authors were, they
had been publishing butbookstores were starting to put
their books on the shelves again, right for someone like me to
stumble in and find them.

(06:34):
Um, and so, yeah, it was justkind of this like this
interesting moment of my buddingpassion for art and writing and
the written word meeting thiscultural moment.
That was kind of swelling upall around me and then just both
of them kind of linking uptogether.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
I love that.
I uh similar.
I was writing in middle schoollike really bad poetry.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
You know you got to have like the spiral notebook of
bad poetry.
Like everyone has to have thatsomewhere somewhere in their
closet.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
I have that several.
And then, um, yeah, like you, Ihad a friend in um middle
school who was like I'm a witch.
I'm like, oh, that's real, yes.
And then, yeah, I just kind ofwent from there.
But, yes, I think that's true.
That's actually really helpfultoo for beginner witches,
because some of us don't processunless we write it out or talk

(07:31):
about it, and so when you'retaking in what is new,
information like witchcraft,which really feels old but new
and familiar, but it's still alot to process, I love that.
It's like we process it throughthe written word and then it is
a way to connect.
So, have you had some um, likepeople reach out or some
connections made off of likeblog posts or magazine articles

(07:52):
and things like that?
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Yeah, I mean, you know the there are many bad
things about comment sections,but one of the good things about
comment sections is that it'svery easy for people to just say
like yes, like just to havethat moment of connection.
Like me too, you know, Irecently published an essay in
Reactor magazine about MollyGrew, the character from the

(08:17):
Last Unicorn, and so like, as I,you know, kind of go deeper
into middle age.
You know, I see more and moreof Molly and myself, and every
time I watch that movie thatscene hits a little harder.
Where she, you know, where shemeets the unicorn, it's like,
how dare you come to me now?
You know, nervous, when the,when the essay went up, I was

(08:45):
like, oh no, it's just gonnasound like so self indulgent.
People are gonna think like, oh, get over yourself.
But just the flood of otherpeople saying like yes, yes,
like I can't watch that scene inthe Last Unicorn without crying
, like I feel like I'm MollyGrew too, you know, yeah, those
moments of connection are justso magical and, you know, I
think the internet, for all ofits faults, it makes them a lot

(09:07):
easier.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
I love that because I made the mistake of showing the
last unicorn to my childrenwhen I hadn't seen it.
Since I was a child, I havethis vivid memory of them both
hiding behind the couch andbeing afraid of the red bull.
Oh yeah, um.
But then I was like, well, Icould turn it off.
They're like no, we need toknow what happens.
And so it was like, and I waslike you know what?

(09:32):
Welcome to being a child of the80s.
All of our movies werecompletely terrifying.
They had moments where you werejust like like willie wonka in
the boat scene and you were justlike, oh my god, like the way,
completely scared and that wasnormal, right, like large march,
peewee, that scary fate.
It's like there's so much largemarch, don't.
Even so, I was like you knowwhat I I was.

(09:54):
It was one of those nightswhere my husband was working
late and I just I always makethis mistake.
This is like a common thread inmy parenting where it's like,
yeah, I watched this kid at thischild, this movie as a child,
it'll be fine, you guys would befine, like.
I turned out fine right right,but uh, yeah, so that was a
mistake, but you're right, likewatching as an adult.

(10:15):
I was watching it with them.
They were obviously scared ofthe red bull, but I was feeling
like this whole, you know,spiritual journey awakening for
the character.
And then, um, this has nothingto do with anything but I have
to share.
I, a couple Christmases ago atGoodwill, I found a last unicorn
ornament like original oh mygod, 79 cents.

(10:36):
The girl's like where was this?
Like I could totally tell shewas mad that she didn't find it,
but she was much better than meand I'm like you're not even in
, you weren't even alive.
This is mine and so it's likemy favorite thing that I put on
the tree of a year Cause it waslike such a cool find.
But yeah, I love that and Ilove you talk a lot about pop

(10:57):
culture in Witchblade Rising andI personally really love that
because I always kind of I mean,that's how I grew up too.
You know, growing up, like Isaid, in the eighties and
nineties it was like all themovies that we grew up there was
always like witches and magicand I was like onto that.
I latched onto Nancy and thecraft, even though she's
probably the villain, but for meI was like no, I want to be

(11:20):
just like her, you know she'slike the villain, but like you
feel for her.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
I mean she's like being abused, like she's.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
you know, the cards are stacked against Nancy, like
she does, that movie does herdirty.
You know, I feel that way, yeah.
And that's another one I showedmy daughter when she was a
teenager and she's like watchingit with me and she's like, oh,
you know, maybe, like it's likewe're in the beginning scenes
and she's so positive and she'slike, maybe I want to do
witchcraft with my friends.
This just seems ideal.
And then by the end of it she'slike, can you walk me in the
bathrooms Because I'm afraidNancy could be in there.
I'm like, sure, yeah.

(11:53):
It's such a twist, but that'swhat's sad.
That movie was empowering to somany of us, even though I think
they were trying to make usafraid of our own power.
Really like, as you know, girls, it's like you shouldn't do
this stuff because you're goingto end up drunk on power and in
a mental institution.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
So the moral of the story is like girls, don't,
don't band together, Don't domagic, Don't try to improve your
life.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Like yeah, look what happens when you do yeah, okay,
and then so Witchblood Rising.
I just want to say foreverybody, read it because, like
you said, it's a collection ofessays but it still goes really
well together, it flows so welland that I'm sure took some yeah
, I'm sure that took some likeintense weaving on your part to

(12:41):
like take, if you like, 10 yearsof things and find the thread
right and put them together.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah, well, it's so the thread was unexpected to me,
you know.
When I first started thinkingabout kind of like collecting
everything I had written, Ithought like, oh, but it's like
it's going to be so disjointedlike I write, I write about all
this random stuff and I was sorelieved and gratified to find
that there was kind of thiscommon thread, right, because,

(13:11):
like, in some chapters I'mtalking about, like California
native plants and in otherchapters I'm talking about
Marvel movies, you know, and Ithought like no one's going to
want to publish this.
It's just I'm all over the place.
But so I was really relievedwhen people started saying like,
no, no, no, no, no.
You can see the through linehere.

(13:31):
I think there wasn't a lot ofweaving involved, even though I
love weaving I'm a literalweaver, you know.
But there was a lot of cuttinginvolved, you know.
So, like when I took mygigantic pile of stuff I'd
written, you know, only like Ithink nine essays made the cut

(13:54):
right.
Only nine felt like appropriateto be in a book together, and
then I wrote a couple new onesto kind of like flesh it out.
So yeah, but like it's.
It's funny, like over like,whether you're a writer or an
artist or kind of any othercreative person, when you look
over your work, even when youfeel like you're doing just one
random thing after another, yousee the pattern after a while.

(14:16):
You know like your obsessionsstart to become apparent as you
look over your work.
As you look over your work, andit was a fun process for me to
see just the themes that I keptcoming back to over and over
again, because it's somethingthat you see in someone else's
work and you assume it'scompletely intentional.
Like, oh, what a genius, likelook at how they look, how
intentional it was, and theymanaged to fit it into, like all

(14:39):
of these different essays, thiscommon theme that they were
building up.
But no, often it's completelysubconscious, and that's, that's
the magic of making stuff, youknow.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
That's amazing.
Yeah, I felt intentional andwhat I like about it is because
on this show I'm very interestedin like the witch's journey and
I feel like that was one commonthread.
It was just like a journey of awitch like from, you know, from
teenage years to finding yourvoice, to weaving, to learning
about plants.
It was like we all go throughthat and that's something I find

(15:14):
personally like frustratingwith kind of the modern
witchcraft movement is everyonewants to be a type of witch Like
, and they get stuck and it'slike, no know, like your book
really shows, like you explorethat's.
That's regular, it's normal.
Like we go through like Ireally love crystals for a
couple years and I'm gonnaobsess over them and now, wait,

(15:35):
what's this plant over here?
And then now I'm on plants andI feel like that's the natural
journey.
But if we start labelingourselves like oh, I'm just this
one type of witch, we kind ofget cycled.
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, totally, it's funny.
I had never really seen thatphenomenon until, like, social
media started to take off andthen that was when I really
started seeing people say, likeyou know, like, well, I'm a
kitchen witch, this is what I do, I'm a divination witch.
Well, I'm a kitchen witch, thisis what I do, I'm a divination
witch.
It's funny.
I mean, I just mentioned, likeMarvel movies, like Agatha, all

(16:09):
along, the witchy show it cameout last fall and they're each
their specific kind of witch,right, like we can't have a
coven unless we have the what?
The protection witch, thedivination witch, you know, and
it's funny, I don't know wherethat, I don't know where that
impulse comes from exactly,because you're right like it can

(16:32):
be really stifling if you gettoo attached to a label and you
start to feel like, well, no,I'm not allowed to do this other
thing that's calling to me,because it's not the kind of
witch that I am, or it's not thekind of artist that I am, it's
not the kind of person that I am, you know.
Um, and I wonder, like ifthere's a way to like embrace

(16:55):
these labels, but in a morefluid kind of.
You know, I almost want to saylike, like, like you want to
like tag yourself, uh, this orthat, that kind of witch,
instead of like categorizingyourself, right.
So, like well, today I'mworking in the kitchen, I'm
having fun, fun, cooking Likethis is kitchen witchery that

(17:16):
I'm doing.
You know, maybe tomorrow I'vegot a tarot appointment with
someone.
I'm going to be reading theircards, like that's where I'm
going to bring out kind of thatother part of my, of my
personality, you know.
But it's such an interestingphenomenon Like this neat, this,
really, this impulse thatpeople have to to label
themselves.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
Well, it's interesting too, because I feel
like a lot of people are we'retrying anyway to move away from,
like the gender binary right.
We're trying to release thatthere's just one or the other,
and that's a rigid structure.
And so I feel like there's alot of release too in like queer
community, like trying torelease a lot of the labels,
like you can be this and thatlike, and then you know, and

(17:59):
then.
But at the same time, a lot of,I would say, outliers and
outsiders are attracted towitchcraft and then they're
holding onto these labels andit's like no, like it's okay,
like I know.
You feel like maybe you need todo that to justify.
I feel like sometimes that's it.
It's like, well, I don't knowanything about this other type
of witchcraft, but I do knowthis and maybe that's part of it

(18:20):
.
But yeah, I just feel like Ilike that, because there's some
days I am a kitchen witch andthen the next day I'm a green
witch and then the next day I'ma crystal witch, like it's not
an even moment to moment, right,like within the same day.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, right, and like you can absolutely have a
specialty, you know, like thisis, this is what I'm really
drawn to and this is what I lovedoing.
But, yeah, you can't let itlike start to just define your
entire practice, your entireperson, right?
Like you have to give yourselfpermission to branch out and to
try other things, and like youdefinitely have to give yourself

(18:52):
permission to maybe move onfrom something if it's not quite
what you are anymore.
And I feel like there's a lotof fear around that.
Like there's a lot of fear oflike losing our personalities,
right, like, oh no, but I'vedefined myself as this, I can't
let go of that.
And I think there's a lot offear a lot of rightful fear

(19:13):
around being judged by otherpeople, like you know well you
said that you were a crystalwitch and now it's been six
months since you've talked aboutcrystals and like have been a
fake all along.
You know, I mean here's.
Here.
We get into the bad parts ofthe internet, right, the bad
parts of the comment section,like people are very quick to to
judge and to jump toconclusions about people when

(19:36):
we're all evolving and changingall the time, like it's
perfectly normal yeah, and Ieven think, like sometimes I'll
use the term witchy and peopleseem to like that more because
they don't even want to maybetake that label, like it's like
I'll do.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
They want to do witchy things but they don't
want to say like I'm, they don'twant to commit to it, and I get
that and it's kind of theopposite end of the spectrum.
It's like I don't want tocommit to a label, right, and
that's okay because you're right, it's all all the journey, it's
all the evolution.
Like if, if I was a witch, Iwas at 13, I, that'd be sad.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
I got it.
I shudder to think what I wouldbe like if I was, if I was the
same kind of witch that I wasway back then, you know.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, yeah, like cause I was Wiccan, because
that's all I could find.
It's all I know about.
Yeah, we were all limited towhat the bookstores carried,
right.
And so I feel like we all readScott Cunningham and Raven
Silver, ravenwolf, and that waslike.
And then I discovered, likeItalian witchcraft with Raven
Grimasi, and I was like, oh well, this is different.
Because I'm Italian, I was likemaybe I want to do this, but

(20:40):
yeah, it was whatever books youcould afford, because we were
like kids and then I would swapwith my friend and you know,
it's kind of whatever you werelimited to.
And so, yeah, now we have a lotof information that could be
part of the labeling.
It's like there's such a vastamount of information, they can
all kind of narrow it down.
I don't know.
I want to know a little bitabout the Witch's Kin.

(21:00):
If you could tell us about thatbook.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, sure, so yeah, I don't have a copy with me.
You can see I'm surrounded byboxes.
We're getting ready to move, somore and more of my stuff is
getting packed away as weapproach the moving date and it
terrifies me.
But yeah so.
The Witch's Kin it came outlast year from Retona Press.
It is a book about kind offorming and deepening your

(21:27):
relationship with all of thebeings around you, whether
they're human or plant or animalor spirit.
It's a very agnostic book,meaning that, like you don't
have to believe in, like literalspirits you don't have to
believe in, you know, gods asinvisible people who are sitting
next to you.
In order to hopefully getsomething out of the book, it's

(21:50):
all about establishingconnections with the, the, the
scene and the unseen worldaround you and forming kinship
with them.
Um, in a you know, in a waythat doesn't force you to
believe anything.
That's kind of my.
I think I need to work on myelevator pitch.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
I like that because you know when you, when people
talk about like the spirit ofplants or whatever, it
automatically sounds animist.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, so animism is a huge part, is a huge part of
that book.
Animism, you know, that is likethe belief, or the worldview or
the mindset, however you wantto, you know, conceptualize it
that everything is in soul,everything is part of the divine
and everything hasconsciousness and agency, even

(22:40):
if it doesn't look exactly likea human brain.
You know, in the case of, likeplants and animals, this is
actually backed up by science,right, like more and more and
more science is showing that,like you know, like octopuses
are as smart as dogs.
Right, like these areintelligent animals.
Plants have senses and they caneven do rudimentary, uh kind of

(23:07):
like cognitive tasks.
Right, like plants can count.
Plants can keep time.
Plants are way more consciousthan we previously thought.
Um, which is scary if you have agarden, because when you have
to go weeding you're like, oh no, right, it's fraught, you know.
And then, in other realms ofour practice, like establishing

(23:34):
relationships with gods andspirits, it's purely a matter of
faith, right, like I'm gonnaconduct a ritual, I'm gonna put
together an altar, just on purefaith that there's something out
there that's gonna respond tome and something out there that
I can form a connection with,and that is going to be, that's
the form of connection that'sgoing to be mutually beneficial
to me and whoever or whatever Iam connecting to, you know,

(23:59):
whether it's like a literalsomeone out there or whether
it's just an aspect of my ownmind that I'm, that I'm kind of
nurturing.
The book just kind of like,takes the premise that, like
whatever is going on when we dosacred ritual, like it's worth
it.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
So I love that, because you're not giving the
answer.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Exactly, there is no answer.
You know, if there was ananswer, we would have found it
by now.
Right Like there, there's noanswer, and that's what makes
spiritual practice so beautifuland so important.
It's like that's why theyliterally call it a mystery.
Right Like you're stepping intothis mystery and you're
embracing it, um, and your lifeis bettered by knowing that it's

(24:43):
a mystery and knowing thatyou're never going to know what
exactly it is you're doing, butyou know that it's important.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, I love that approach Because it's it's hard
sometimes to read a book by likea witch or pagan and they're
just saying for certain, likethis is how it is and this is,
and it's like you don't knowthat, like I'm sorry, but you
don't know that, right, unlessyou know you really feel like a
deep, maybe channeled,connection or something.

(25:11):
But you need to also say thatthat's how you know that, right,
instead of being like I knowthis from all this research.
I know this because they talkdirectly to me, right?
However you want to justify.
But I love that because it'slike people do miss out
sometimes on the connection withplants or animals or crystals
or whatever, because they'reworried about, like am I doing

(25:32):
it right?
Who am I connecting to?
How is this working?
Is there any out there?
Right?
Like, do I have to pray to acertain God or elemental?
It's like they get caught up inall the little details and then
they don't get to enjoy theprocess, right exactly.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
I feel like there's kind of two extremes that we can
fall into, and I think everyonefalls into this to some extent.
It's everyone.
You either get tripped up withself-doubt, you know like, well,
why am I doing this?
There's no point to this, it'snot real, I'm just imagining it.
You know, the my friend fromwhatever, from school was right

(26:11):
when they told me that I'm just,you know, playing pretend, yeah
.
But then on the oppositeextreme, we can get caught up in
superstition, right, like oh, Ihave to do it the exact right
way, or I'm going to get struckby lightning, like oh, I have to
do it the exact right way, orI'm going to get struck by
lightning, you know Right, and Ithink it's just natural to kind

(26:36):
of zigzag between those twoextremes a little bit until you
find that center.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
You know that's.
Yeah, I agree 100%.
That's exactly.
I work a lot with beginnerwitches and I see those extremes
.
You know it's like a lot of.
Am I doing it right?
I don't know if I'm doing itright.
Well, it's like, well, if youstop thinking, you might feel
that you're doing it right,right, once you release that and
then, yeah, then it's like,well, the book said to do it
this way, okay, but you can trya different way, right?

(27:09):
I often say like, if it doesn'tfeel right to you, maybe find a
different way to do it right,because it's like, just because
one witch says this doesn't meanhow do they know?

Speaker 2 (27:12):
you know exactly it works for them and they're
sharing what they can whatworked best for them right yeah,
exactly yeah, and there's alsolike a middle path a middle
ground between, like you know,deciding like, well, if, well,
everything is real and nothingis real, so I'm just going to do
whatever I want, right.
And you know, kind of like goingto the, to the very dogmatic
approach, like, well, there'sonly one way to do it and it has

(27:33):
to be this one way, like, no,you can find a middle ground
between that too, right, like,you can have spiritual
discipline, you can have respectfor tradition, can have
spiritual discipline, you canhave respect for tradition.
You know, you can be curiousabout like, okay, well, if a lot
of people are saying to do itthis way, well, clearly, well,
why, why are they saying to doit that way?
Like is it?
Is there something there that'sreally worth doing?

(27:56):
You know, yeah, you can findthat middle ground between
creativity and reinvention andrespect for the knowledge that
has come before you, right, italways has to have that give and
take.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, it's funny we keep circling back to kind of a
middle ground right, rightEverything is the middle ground.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
But I love your kitty poking over your shoulder.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
He is like so mad his ribbon is sitting here.
He's like why are we notplaying right now?
Why are you talking to thisfake cat or whatever?
Um, so yeah, he's.
He's protesting in his own way.
Um, I would love to know aboutyour journey with tarot.
I was doing some poking yourwebsite and I see you read tarot
for people and I also readabout you finding your mom's

(28:44):
tarot cards like in the hercloset right.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yes.
So, um, I, you know I don'ttalk about this part of this
before, but when I was young, um, I had this bad habit of like
rooting through my mom's oldthings just because they were
very interesting.
You know, like how dare shekeep such interesting things in
her closet and then like get madwhen I'm going to rifle through
them.
And now my kid does the samething to my stuff, like she goes

(29:12):
through my stuff.
I'm like don't do that.
But also I know exactly whyyou're doing that, you know.
But yeah, one day when I was inhigh school, I found this old
deck of tarot cards in my mom'sthings and it turned out that,
like back in the late 60s, early70s, when she she grew up in
New York, and so at somebookstore in New York whether it

(29:35):
was like in the East Village orWhite Plains, I don't know Um,
she bought herself like a deckof tarot cards in a book, you
know.
And when I asked her, like whatwere you going to do with these
?
It's kind of a stupid question,but you know, she said like,
well, I was going to learn toread them, Right?

(29:56):
Um, and it was funny.
It was this moment where Irealized like, oh my mom is just
, was just like any other 20year old, you know, like, just,
she sees something in abookstore and she's like, ah,
that could be a lark, you knowthat could be fun, and she buys
them.
Um, but so I found those cardsright when I was discovering
tarot, right where I went, justI was discovering like there's

(30:16):
this really beautiful, very coolthing that people can do, right
, like they're not quite playingcards, they're not quite art
cards, and also they tell thefuture, like this is pretty
awesome.
The books on Wicca that I wasstarting to amass, right, they
all had a section on tarot, theyall had like the little one

(30:36):
line kind of card meetings, andso that was the beginning of my
tarot journey.
I would love to report thatlike, oh, it was so easy to
learn, like the cards, just asthe minor arcana.
So, instead of like a pictureof a person you know holding

(31:14):
some swords, let's say the twoof swords, right In the Smith
Waite, it's a blindfolded womanblocking herself with swords.
Um, in a marseille deck, thetwo of swords is just two swords
side by side, that's it noperson, no narrative, nothing.
And so they can be pretty hardto read, and so my mistake as a
young tarot reader was divingright into the marseille deck

(31:38):
when there was no guidance on,like how to read that kind of
deck.
And so I had this reallyfrustrating time in high school,
you know like look at, likeflipping through the guidebooks
and like trying to make sense ofit, but like just nothing.
The readings didn't make anysense, right, Because I just was
not really doing it the way thecards wanted to be read.

(31:59):
And so for the first few yearsof my life as a tarot reader, I
would try to read a deck and itwouldn't really work and I'd put
it away.
I'd buy a new deck, I'd try toread with that one still
wouldn't really make sense, youknow, cause I was just reading
what the guidebook said.
I was not interpreting thecards myself.

(32:20):
Um, but then finally, many,many years later, when I found
my mom's old deck and I foundlike a you know another deck and
I bought a Smith Waite, finallyI finally sat down and I kind
of pushed the guidebook away.
I think I literally like kindof pushed it away.
I have maybe I'm making thismemory up, but that's what I

(32:40):
seem to remember doing and Ilaid out some cards and I just
started reading them, kind of asif they were a comic strip,
Right?
So, like in the first card,this person is doing this thing.
In the second card, oh, anothercharacter shows up and they're
doing this to the first personin the third card.

(33:02):
Oh, wait a minute, maybe thefirst person changed costumes
and now they're doing somethingelse, right?
And I just remember that nightwhen I was like, wait a minute,
maybe this is how you do it.
You know you don't read the, youknow the blurb in the guidebook
verbatim, and then just spoutand then just regurgitate that

(33:25):
you actually see what'shappening on the card and you
let the card tell you a story.
And then, sure enough, when Istarted reading more widely like
how to read tarot, includingMarseilles decks, which they
have again, they have their ownstyle I started to learn like,
yeah, like, actually, actually,this is how a lot of people do
it.
You know that's you.

(33:45):
Just you see what story thecards are telling you and you
tell that story and then it endsyou.
It ends up being a littleallegory, that kind of gives you
guidance for your own problemor answers the question that you
had.
Right, yeah, I remember thatnight so well.
It was just that breakthroughfor me when I realized, like, oh

(34:07):
, you don't, you don't just haveto do what the books say, like
you can actually just let thecards speak to you directly, you
know.
And after that I was able tolike reintegrate, like what the
book said, right, Like, oh yeah,there's a, you know, there's
this numerology stuff, there'sthese astrological elements,
there's this.
If you read this book, thisauthor noticed something in this

(34:28):
card which I never noticed.
That's actually super useful.
It was this process of justintegrating, kind of everything
that was available to me.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
So how did you apply that back to the original deck
that was your mom's?
Because you're talking aboutlike seeing it as a comic strip,
but then when someone's lookingat, just like two swords on a
card how does that?

Speaker 2 (34:52):
read that more about the Marseille is that there's
kind of this cross-referencingsystem you can use, right?

(35:13):
So when it comes to the pipcards, the four suits each mean
something and you can use anestablished meaning or you can
use your own meaning.
It's up to you, but you decideahead of time like, okay, the
swords mean conflict, right, I'mjust going to decide that
that's what they mean.
The hearts mean relationshipsand love and emotions.
Right, like you can decide thatahead of time.
And then the numbers each meansomething.

(35:35):
So one means unity.
Five means the introduction ofa new element, right.
Seven means, I don't know, asacred journey.
Right, like you kind of decideahead of time.
And so then when you pull, forexample, like the seven of

(35:57):
hearts or the seven of cupsrather, in the Marseille, you
have already decided before youpulled the card.
Okay, well, cups mean love andrelationships.
Seven means a journey.
This is a journey of love, youknow.
And so, even if it just has sixcups on it, now you know what
that card means.
Um, and you didn't have tomemorize 78 separate.

(36:18):
You know completely unrelatedcard meetings because you have
this little system in place.
So that was what I learnedabout how to read, like pip
cards.
What's also fun is that you can, like you know, if you have
like a card with two swords onit, if, for example, you know
there's like a character on eachside, like, let's say, I don't

(36:38):
know the fool, and um, uh, theking of the king of cups and
then in between them are twoswords.
You can decide like, oh,they're each going to take a
sword and they're going to fightwith each other, right?
So it's very open to to, uh, tointerpretation, to like just
these kind of spontaneousmeanings.

(36:59):
Um, it's very flexible and likeit's very open to just you know
, like what, like what do youliterally see in front of you
that can, that you can use inyour storytelling, so you can
have a lot of fun with it.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
I love that.
I had a similar journey where Ijust tried to memorize the
books and I even went ahead andlike got my universal waitsmith
writer, waitsmith deck and thenI got two books from Llewellyn.
one was on card spreads and onewas on like deeper meaning of
the book, because you said thelittle paper book it was like a
yeah, and it was cripplingactually because then like turn

(37:39):
the card over and be like wait aminute and then, flipping the
book, read all this stuff and Ijust it wasn't ever clicking for
me until I did exactly what youtalked about, which was like
what am I actually seeing infront of me?
Right, exactly.

Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah, like, am I reading the cards or am I
reading the guidebook?
You know, and when you get tothe point where you're just
reading the guidebook and like,the cards might as well not even
be there that's when you got tochange your tactic.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
You know, yeah, and like you said too, it tells a
story.
So that's such a good exampleabout the fool and the king and
the two swords.
There's a story.
Or I like how you talked aboutthe comic strip, because it's
meant to be a storyteller.
Right, it's meant to be told.
You know they're not inisolation.
And with the book, if you keepgoing back to the book,
everything's in isolation andyou can't make the connection of
the stories if you're onlyusing the guidebook.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
Right.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
Exactly yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
And the cards.
They're always going to have aneffect on each other.
This is actually what I reallylike about the Lenormand.
I don't know as much aboutLenormand as I do about tarot,
but with the Lenormand there'sthis system that people have
developed where, like, one cardwill kind of exalt or diminish

(38:52):
the card next to it, dependingon, like, how they're situated
right.
So if you have a diminishingcard next to I don't know, let's
say like the moon card, right,the moon will be diminished by
that card, and so that's a coolsystem.
Again, I don't know as muchabout that system as I do about
tarot, but when you let thecards talk to each other, all

(39:16):
sorts of just really cool thingsstart to happen.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
So when you read, do you mix card decks, like do you
bring up a few or do you juststick with one deck, or I have
in the past.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
It's really fun.
I don't know why I don't do itmore often.
To be honest, usually I'll justread with one deck, but when I
do, when it does occur to me tolike, pull out a few decks and
mix and, you know, start mixingthem up.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
It's a lot of fun mix and, you know, start mixing
them up.
Um, it's a lot of fun.
Yeah, because the lenormand isalso new to me and the way I've
been using it is like with mytarot, because I'm like this, I
do, so let me put them.
Let's like put it all together,and so it's helping me
understand those symbols better,because, in isolation.
I like I got the card deck, Iput it it down.

(40:01):
I'm like, okay, like it's just,and I was trying to like put
them together, but there wasalso numbers and I'm like
there's got to be more.
I'm missing something here,because it can't just be the
simple picture it's got to be.
There's got to be deepermeaning that I'm just not
connecting with.
So I started using them withtarot and I'm like oh, I, this,

(40:21):
this makes a lot more sense.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
So I started using them with tarot and I'm like, oh
I, this, this makes a lot moresense.
Well, what's funny is that Ifound that I always have a
Lenormand deck with me when Iread for clients or when I read
like at events or something,because I find that, like the
Lenormand and playing cards aregood for like really like kind
of fast, practical questions,right, like you know.
So like, how do I find a newjob?

(40:43):
Like I don't, I don't careabout my spiritual journey right
now, I don't need any deepermeaning, I don't need my life's
purpose, I just the you know,the rent is due and I need a new
job.
So how do I find a new job?
I found that, like theLenormand is really good at just
like bam, bam, bam.
Yeah, you know, do XYZ, youknow, do X Y Z right, they're

(41:04):
very they're very practical.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah, I like that.
I have a few like Oracle carddecks that are like that too,
where it's like one of them isjust it.
Basically it's like an eightball.
But so it's like yes, no,unclear kind of thing.
And so someone does have aquestion, because, you know,
usually we say no, yes or noquestions but, we just a lot of
times like as a reader, like doyou really want me to tell you

(41:27):
the answer?
Because I feel like you don'tsometimes I will actually ask
clients.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
You know it's a tricky situation.
So I only ask if I feel likeit's going to go well.
Um, yeah, I'll ask them like,what are you going to do if you
don't get the answer you want?
Like I can tell by yourquestion that there's an answer
you want.
So tell me ahead of time whatyou're going to do if you don't
get that answer.
And you know, sometimes ifthey're like oh, I hadn't

(41:55):
thought about that and I'm likethen you don't want this
question answered right now.
You know, but again, it'stricky, that's a very tricky
situation.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
I you really have to feel out who you're working with
before you can, before you canconfront them with something
like that, you know, yeah, well,it's questions like about
relationships, that when I'malways like, do you really want
to know if you should divorceyour husband, or do you already
know the answer?
Yeah, right, like are you?
just having me validate what youalready think, and usually
that's what the cards will show.
It's a validation.
I already know, asking me thatquestion, that you do in fact
want to divorce your husband,but you just need someone else

(42:29):
to be like yeah girl, I'll getit, you know, it's like are you
looking for guidance?

Speaker 2 (42:34):
or are you looking for permission, because I'll
give you permission for free,like, yeah, I don't want to have
to pull the cards for that.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
So then it's a lot of times it's like, well, if I can
give you validation, I can giveyou timing, because I think
sometimes that's another thingthey want is like, yeah, I want
to do this, but do I want to dothis right now?
Or same with, like leaving ajob.
I'm always hesitant becauseit's like, well, I'm not going
to tell you to stop making money, like, right, so instead let's
talk about other options andmaybe when you should look for

(43:04):
another job and those kinds ofthings.
But I'm not going to saystraight up yeah, stop making
money, do that?

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Right, like it'll all work out, it'll be fun, you
know, yeah, no, with reallyloaded questions like that,
there's always a little voice inthe back of my mind Like, am I
going to get served with alawsuit if I?
If give them bad advice?
Like no one wants that you knowyeah.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
Well, the thing is is like I feel like the advice is
always true, but it's like, dothey want the truth?
And that's where sometimes Ihesitate.
You know, like I have certaintarot decks that I only use for
myself and friends becausethey're harsh.
There's something about themthe way they read where they're
just like slapping you in theartwork, the way they read where
they're just like slapping youin the face time and time again,
and I won't use them for like aclient because I'm like nobody,

(43:48):
we're not.
We're not that close where Ican just give you a slap down
like we're gonna.
I'm gonna use the softergentler maybe, kind of things,
instead of the harsh kind ofdecks.

Speaker 2 (43:58):
I don't know yeah, I had the.
I definitely had those deckstoo.
It's funny, the Ussi, pagan,otherworlds, tarot.
I don't know if you've seenthat deck.
It is one of oh, it's one ofthe most beautiful decks out
there.
It is so gorgeous.
It's got these like aRenaissance style paintings that
are.
They're so beautiful that, likeit's, I had to double check to

(44:21):
see if they were to make surethat they had been drawn,
painted by, like a modern artist, rather than unearthed from
some vault.
I mean, they're beautiful, uh,but that deck is harsh like.
When I use that deck, theanswer takes two seconds and it
is, uh, not always kind, youknow yeah, I have a deck, uh,
based on the Kabbalah.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
It was like oh, yeah, it was a small batch that was
made and I happened to get acopy and whenever that comes out
, it's like it's like so,Kabbalah.
It's just like yeah, so you'redoing this and you shouldn't be
doing this.
And it's like so clear, it'snever ambiguous and it can be
kind of harsh if you weren'treally wanting that truth.

(45:03):
So I have to like save that forwhen, like okay, tell me, tell
me what's really going on.
And then that card will alwaysgive you like two seconds, like
you said, yeah, yeah, right,yeah.
Do you have a couple of favoritecard decks?
Or and then second question, doyou recommend a certain deck
for beginners?

Speaker 2 (45:23):
Oh gosh, so it's so funny when I read tarot in, like
college.
You know, high school andcollege, again the rocky years,
right.
The only version of the Smithweight that I knew of was that
the one with like the very, verybright colors, right, like the
backgrounds are like brightyellow, bright powder blue, you,

(45:43):
just because that's the waythey were printed.
You know, um, and so I always Iwas, I was always kind of
turned off by this, by the smithweight back then known as the
rider weight, even though I knewit was like the deck to have.
I just never, never spoke to me, um, but then I eventually got
the reprinting.
I can't remember what the whatit's called, but it's the

(46:05):
reprinting where they kind oftone down the colors.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
It's the universal, the universal.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
I mean, I have it right here, it's the the.
The backs look like this.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Oh no, I don't have that one, but so I have one.
It's the universalRider-Waite-Smith and all the
colors.
Can I see the front of yourcard?
Yeah, yeah.
So this is the.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
This is what the colors look like on this one.
Still very kind of like graphicarts looking lights a little
better here.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
Yeah, so mine's more pastel, pastel y yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
So I learned that, like, the original paintings
were all lost, so no oneactually knows what color Pamela
Coleman Smith, like, actuallypainted these, um, or if she
painted them at all.
Maybe they were just line art,I don't know.
That's what I've heard, that'swhat I've read, that like they,
just no one knows where theoriginal art is.
So that's why we get all thesereprints with different colors.

(46:57):
It's kind of like no one knowsbut, um, but anyway.
So I got a deck with just thatthe colors were toned down a
little bit, um, and I startedreading it and, like, that's
when I really started toappreciate, like, really the
genius of the artwork, you know.
So, again, pamela coleman smith,uh, she was an artist and an
illustrator.

(47:17):
Um, she was involved in theorder of the golden dawn with
arthur waite, who you know, kindof like commissioned the deck
from her and, um, myunderstanding is that, like,
kind of like her drawingsresponded to his what he wanted
in the cards, but she, still,you can see her creativity and
her, uh, kind of her stamp onevery card.

(47:40):
Right, it's definitely herartwork, um, and I started to
appreciate, just like how muchdetail uh, there is in these
cards, right, so like I'll justpull another, you know, like a
random one, so glad I happen tohave this here uh you know.
So, like the ten of wands, right, uh, a figure is kind of like

(48:03):
trying to carry this, this bigbundle of staffs, um, you can
see in his body language he'slike he's having a hard time
keeping it all together, buthe's still pushing forward.
You know he's not giving upthis.
You know the staffs, like, theylook like they're on the verge
of collapse, but he is man, heor they.
You know, I I'm trying to getout of the habit of gendering

(48:24):
the cards.
You know, like they're.
They haven't dropped them yet,right?
Or, if they have, they'vepicked them back up, um, and
then you can see the destinationin the background, right, like,
but then does, does this personwant to be taking them there?
Like, are they going to feelrelieved when they get these
staffs there, or are they goingto feel like, okay, well, I've

(48:46):
delivered it.
Now I got to go back for more,right, like these cards, they
just they invite so muchstorytelling and the way one
person reads what's going on onthis, on this card, could be
completely different from whatanother person reads, you know,
um, and so that caught, thatdeck became my favorite deck to

(49:06):
read with, like, whenever I read, uh, no matter how, how many
decks I bring with me, I alwaysbring my smithwaite with me.
Know, always, always, always,um.
Whenever I read for myself,like nine times out of 10, I'm
using Smith weight, so that's myvery favorite deck, um another,
definitely inner one too, right, wouldn't you say?

Speaker 1 (49:27):
that's a good beginner deck.

Speaker 2 (49:28):
Because, definitely, yes, if you begin with any deck,
like, start with a Smith weight, because not only are the cards
, uh, not only do they lendthemselves, uh, to
interpretation so easily, um,but they're the symbolism on the
cards and the like, the tropesthat show up are the basis of,

(49:50):
you know, most other decks outthere, right?
So, like the famous three ofswords, with the three swords
penetrating the heart, you're tosee that symbol show up
everywhere in tarot.
And it's thanks to, you know,it's thanks to Coleman Smith,
like, it's thanks to her artwork, yeah, so that's my favorite
deck to read with.

(50:10):
There's another deck.
It's currently at my work rightnow I have to keep a deck at
work.
It's currently at my work.
Right now I have to keep a deckat work.
You know, um, it's the fifthspirit, uh, tarot, by, uh,
charlie claire burgess, um, andit's a modern, queer, uh kind of
alternative deck.
What's amazing is that burgesssaid that, uh, they learned to

(50:30):
draw in order to make this deck.
But, like you, I, I have a hardtime believing it, because the
art is so good.
You're telling me you neverdrew before.
Come on, come on, dude, I don'tknow, but you know, the art is
wonderful.
Um, it's so vibrant andcolorful.
Um, and I had this reallymagical experience when I was

(50:53):
reading at a, like a birthdayparty where, like again, like
Bird, just like, drew everyfigure on the cards with like
different genders, differentbody types, different you know,
like just different, differentways of looking.
And I was reading for a transwoman and I put a card down and

(51:14):
she didn't seem to think much ofit.
She was just like I was likeyou know well, okay, this was
like you know well, okay, thisis you on the card and this is
what you need to do usualreading.
And she goes god, that's sofunny because, like, the card
even looks like me.
And I was like I know right,that's the magic of tarot.
But in my mind I was thinkinglike this would never happen
with a more heteronormative deck, like we would never get to

(51:37):
have that moment where someonewho, you know, doesn't have like
this very, very rigidly definedbody type, sees the card that
represents her and just casuallythinks like, oh God, it even
looks like me.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
Okay cards.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
I get it, you know.
It was just such a beautifulmoment.
So yeah, fifth spirit tarotdeck.
Beautiful, beautiful deck.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
I love that, yeah, I've.
I.
I'm amazed at all of the newinterpretations that are coming
out because, exactly what yousaid, you know, these the uh,
the traditional, like RiderWaite, smith, it's a standby but
it's pretty limited, likeeveryone is kind of one body
type, right, and everybody is.

(52:18):
They're usually illustratedwhere everybody's white.
So, you know, it's like it'spretty limiting and, you're
right, a lot of people don't seethemselves.
I had something similar happen.
I have.
I can't remember.
I was trying to remember thename of the deck but it has a
lot of different body sizes, andI pulled the card and my the
person was like wow, like theyeven have my body shape, like
they were so amazed like thatthey could see themselves in the

(52:41):
card.
And, you're right, thatwouldn't have happened, like 20
years ago, right, yeah, you justcouldn't see.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
Yeah, like you would just have.
You just have to tell peoplelike OK, well, this represents
you.
You'll just have to trust me onthis, right, they don't you
know, they can't have that likevisceral reaction of like wow,
that's me in the card.
Okay, I better take thisreading seriously, you know.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
Well, thank you so much for our conversation today.
You're my first guest to reallydeep dive into tarot with me,
which is such a pleasure, is Icould talk about for probably
far too long, and so same here.
I didn't talk about it all day.
Me too.
It's um, I don't know.
I get excited when someone'slike, yeah, I read tarot and I'm

(53:26):
like, oh, you do.
I'm like, what's your favoritedeck?
I just have to know, becauseit's like I don't know.
I think more and more peoplekind of go to Oracle cards and
so I get excited when someone isand nothing wrong with that, I
read those too.
But I get excited whensomeone's really deep diving
into tarot.
Um, I would love to know if youhave any little tips or advice,

(53:47):
um, before we leave today forpeople listening on maybe tarot
or starting the tarot journey.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
Yeah, so, um, if you're just starting out with
tarot and you don't quite knowwhere to start, first step is to
get a deck, right?
You know, obviously, once youget your deck, I've got mine
right here, go ahead and shuffleit.
You know, the cards are allgoing to come in order, right?

(54:13):
So you want to kind of like getthem out of order first and
then just go ahead and selectlike one card.
Right, you can just pull it atrandom.
What card did I get?
Oh, um, I got a kind of like a,not nice card.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
So, since this isn't a, real reading.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
I can just pull like a happier one, you know.
Oh, this is a good one all right, yeah, no, I don't need that
right now.
Okay, so yeah, here we go.
You know the nine of pentacles,right.
Once you have this card out, goahead and, just like, take a

(54:52):
look at it, notice what ishappening on the card, right?
Who is the character?
What are they doing, what arethey holding, what are they
wearing, what are theirsurroundings?
Right, like, what are, what arethey surrounded by?
You know, and after you've hadlike a you know, after you had a

(55:12):
minute to kind of just likeform a little story it doesn't
have to be a real person in yourlife Like, this is just, this
is fiction, right, this is youtelling a story about whoever
you see on the card.
You know, take a notebook and apencil, maybe your diary, you
know, maybe just like a piece ofscratch paper, whatever, and

(55:33):
just write a little story aboutwhat's happening on the card,
right, so you know this person.
She is the I don't know.
She's the royal falconer, right, she's standing in the castle
courtyard.
She's just brought her falconout.
Here's this little bird, righthere.
She's just brought her falconout.
You know, for the first time,for the first time this morning

(55:56):
it's seven in the morning, thesun has just risen, she's about
to take off the hood and let theFalcon fly free for the first
time today, um, and maybe on hermind she is thinking about, and
then you can go off.
You can make step up.
It's fine.
You know, maybe who is offcamera in the card, right?

(56:16):
Who is surrounding this person?
Is there anyone else there thatwe can't see?
Have fun with it, right, tell astory.
It can be a page long, it couldbe 10 pages long, but that's
the art of tarot, right there?
Right Is you look at the cardand you just start telling a
story based on what's happeningto the card.
And you just start telling astory based on what's happening

(56:37):
to the card and as you grow moreadept at it, as like this
starts to come easier to you,the stories will start to become
allegories, right?
So when you ask the cards likehow do I find new love?
Right, I'm lonely.
How do I find someone, a cardlike this may come up and you

(56:57):
may realize, like, oh, like, I'mthe falconer, but I haven't
sent out my falcon yet.
I need to, I need to let thatbird fly in order to bring
someone back to me, you know,and that could mean whatever it
means in your life, but that'sthe first step.
Pick a card and tell a storyabout it.
Make something up fiction, justhave fun with it.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
That is beautiful advice and I think not just for
beginners.
You know, if someone like wetalked about has had their decks
for years and is still tryingto go back to the book, you know
, and they're stuck in thatcycle.
This is a way to break out ofthat cycle and to introduce them
into like really listening totheir own ideas and seeing the
deck for themselves.
Right, right, yeah, absolutelyWell, thank you so much.

(57:45):
This has been a great chat andI appreciate your time and your
energy and your thoughtfulnessand I feel like all these little
tarot tips are going to helplisteners for sure.
So thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
This has been such a pleasure.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
Thank you for listening or watching.
I really appreciate your time,your energy.
I hope this conversationinspires you to look at your
tarot cards in a different way,or to pick them up if you put
them aside because they were toohard, to pick them back up and
try in the method that Asashared with us.

(58:21):
She gave us a lot of great tipsfor tarot and so definitely
check that out.
Her website, once again, is AsaWest Author, which is
asawestauthorcom.
You can find her on Instagramat the Red Tail Witch, like the
hawk, the Red Tail Hawk, the RedTail Witch, and yeah, I hope
you really enjoyed it.

(58:41):
This was I tried not to fangirl,so I've been fortunate enough
to have these guests on whosebooks I've read and whose work I
really admire and I try to likebe cool, you know, and I think
my enthusiasm comes through andhopefully not too wild of
enthusiasm, please.
If you haven't already liked orsubscribed to the podcast, I

(59:04):
greatly appreciate it.
I'd also appreciate a review,too, if you're listening and
streaming it where you listen.
So thank you again and, yeah,let's go open those tarot cards
and write a story about them.