November 30, 2025 • 63 mins
Ever had a friend steal your kidney story? Neither had we until we dove into the notorious "Bad Art Friend" literary scandal that rocked the writing world. In this raw, unfiltered conversation, we unpack what happens when writer friendships go spectacularly wrong—and why creative relationships can be both essential lifelines and potential minefields.
The publishing journey is rarely a straight line, and the people you meet along the way can profoundly impact your experience. We share deeply personal stories about navigating the messy realities of writer friendships: the friend who visibly bristled at our good news, the acquaintances who only appeared when they needed something, and the strange feeling of watching peers succeed while you're still struggling. These conversations aren't happening enough in writing communities, where social media can make everyone else's path look deceptively smooth.
But it's not all cautionary tales! We also explore how to find your authentic writing community—those rare souls who celebrate your wins without reservation and hold space for your rejections and disappointments. From local writing groups to online communities, we share practical strategies for connecting with fellow writers who understand the unique challenges of the creative life.
The episode concludes with a candid discussion of red flags (like the "friend" who only contacts you after you've leveled up) and green flags (the person who checks in on your writing even when you haven't published anything lately) in writer relationships. Whether you're just starting your writing journey or navigating the complexities of the publishing world, this conversation will help you cultivate meaningful connections while protecting your creative spirit.
Join us for this heartfelt exploration of literary friendships, and remember: the right writing circle can transform not just your work, but your entire creative experience. Subscribe, share, and let us know your own experiences with writer friendships!
Link: A Writer's Journey with Scrivener!
🎙️ Craft Chat Chronicles with J.D. Myall
Candid conversations on writing, publishing, and creative life — featuring bestselling authors, MFA students, and writers at every stage of the journey.
About J.D. Myall
J.D. Myall is the co-chair of Drexel University’s MFA Alumni Association and a publishing and library professional. She is the creator and host of Craft Chat Chronicles, where she interviews authors, agents, and industry insiders about the art and business of writing.
Her work has appeared in Ms. Magazine, Writer’s Digest, and HuffPost. Her debut novel, Heart’s Gambit, releases with Wednesday Books/Macmillan in February 2026.
When she’s not conjuring magic, murder, and mayhem on the page, J.D. mentors emerging writers through workshops and alumni programs, fostering community among aspiring and published authors alike.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
writing journey.
(00:26):
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmyallcom.
That's jdmyallcom.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
On this episode of Craft Chat Chronicles.
We're going on a writer'sjourney.
Good writers and good friendsEnjoy.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of A
Writer's Journey.
In this episode, we're going tobe talking about writer
friendships and how great theycan be, but also, you know, some
things happen at times.
Put it that way to get uskicked off, jd.
Uh, what are we going to betalking about?
(01:10):
What are we starting with?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
well, I guess we could kick it off with a kidney,
talking about the infamous badart friend saga, literary feud
that turned into a viralcautionary tale about writing
friendships.
So if you missed this one,buckle up.
A writer donates a kidney,writes about it online in a
(01:33):
secret face group.
Her writer friend sees this andwrites her exact experience in
a short story.
The short story blows up,elevates her, her career, and
then she gets upset, so upsetthat she reaches out to schools
that this author is appearing atand accuses her of being like
(01:54):
plagiarizing and why are youhosting this person?
And then she goes to do a bookfestival and they were going to
give away tons of copies of thebook and she's posing with these
huge rock star writers and inpictures.
And the woman who donated thekidney is getting even more
upset because in the story thekidney donation is not looked at
(02:17):
as like this brilliant gift oflove.
It's looked at as like thisentitled white woman who has a
white savior complex, like thisentitled white woman who has a
white savior complex giving thekidney in a narcissistic act of
look at me, this is thewonderful, good thing I've done.
So she then reaches out to thefestival and she threatens to
(02:39):
sue them and she accuses thewoman of plagiarism and the
festival says okay, well, wedon't want to get sued, so we're
not hosting it this year.
So then the writer who took herfriend's story has her friends
reach out to the festival, andbasically her friends.
Some of them are real heavyhitters, like the lady who wrote
that Little Fires Everywhere,probably butchering the title,
(03:04):
but you know a?
lot of heavy, you know a lot ofwell-known writer friends, yeah,
yeah.
And they reach out andbasically the festival responds
by saying we have grounds to sueyou.
It shouldn't have beensubmitted to us in the first
place because of the wholeplagiarism accusations and we
can't, you know, distribute thisbecause we don't want to be
sued.
Stop having your friendscontact us.
(03:26):
So it's kind of a hit to hercareer.
So through the lawsuit, emailsare leaked and from the emails
and the group chat she realizedthat the woman who donated the
kidney really had no friends,because her friends were all
(03:47):
talking about her in doing thisand how distasteful it was to
post this kidney donation.
And like the one girl who wrotethe story is like, oh, she's a
literary goldmine, I could writeabout her forever because of
this, these type of antics andchoices, and so the group chats
(04:12):
all come out.
The literary world collectivelyside eyes and they're wondering
who's the villain.
And weirdly, the whole thingmade me think of Drake.
A lot of times we don't knowwhat we have blind spots to
(04:38):
until someone points us out.
And if you followed the wholeDrake, kendrick raps like he's
trying to free the slaves andyou just set Kendrick up for the
line where he's saying homiestill double down, trying to
call us slaves and called him acolonizer and all this stuff.
It's like he didn't see thatthose choices, through the lens
of culture, could have beeninterpreted differently.
(04:58):
And I think when this womanposted her journey of getting a
kidney to her, it was like thisis an important part of my life,
this is a great thing I'm doing.
She didn't realize thatculturally, through whatever
eyes other people were lookingat it, they could have
interpreted differently, like ifit was a good thing, why did
you have to brag about it?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
If it was by the other person, I feel like you're
giving her a lot of grace, butI mean, like she did it to get
she wanted I feel like shewanted to be liked and and you
know she wanted that admirationfrom these writers, particularly
probably because some of themare known, you know who are
(05:37):
doing well, and she wanted theirrespect and admiration.
And so it's like, yes, she did athing that is selfless, but at
the same time, she did it forthe wrong reasons.
What I'm understanding from thesituation and then all the
gossipy texts that came out, um,and so it's just like one of
(05:58):
these situations where, likeyou're saying, someone not
understanding their own blindspot and I'm not sure if someone
tried to explain that to herbefore the short story was
written and all that sort ofthing it seemed like people were
really just kind of got, kindof basically disgusted by it and
(06:20):
just kind of kept theirdistance, instead of saying, hey
, this seems in bad taste andhere's why.
But I get why nobody did that.
Or seems like no one did thatbecause these people weren't
they weren't really friendsanyway.
And, um, from my understandingthat the lady that wrote the
(06:40):
short story basically says that,like we weren't friends, um,
it's like okay, yeah, we're allpart of this writer's community,
um, and maybe giving each othersupport in some sort of way,
but from her perspective shewasn't necessarily friends with
this other woman, where theother woman, I guess, thought
they were very true.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
it's honestly very messy and I think that's what
made this story so compelling topeople online and made it go
viral.
It's because, first of all,they were all well-known writers
, so these were names peopleknew.
And then, secondly, to get topeek behind the curtain and see
the ins and outs and the messyyucca friendships was intriguing
.
But I don't know.
(07:25):
I'm I'm trying to give her alittle grace and shoot her a
little bail because I don't knowwhy, but maybe because we've
all, like, sometimes notrealized our own internalized
mess, like I remember one of myvery, very super early writing
(07:47):
experiences and this one never,like, saw the light of day.
So that's how long ago it was.
But I wrote this story and oneof my beta readers told me that
it had like echoes of misogynyand I remember being quite
embarrassed being a woman.
But when you consider, you know, growing up in the hip hop
culture, being raised on PurpleRain and stuff like that,
(08:08):
there's a lot of.
When you rewatch these thingsand you re-listen to things of
those times, you know what Imean.
There's a lot of misogyny incertain messaging that you're
exposed to, a lot to where youcan internalize it, even as a
woman and not realize it untilsomebody points it out to you.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
And then you're like well, this is culture in general
.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
True cultural in general, but I just use that as
an example, because you know Ilove it.
But, like I said, you know,sometimes we don't realize
things about ourselves untilsomebody points it out.
And then, once somebody pointsit out, you can be like oh wow,
I need to work on that.
And then you do.
And that's why beta readers andcrit partners are important,
(08:47):
because, thank God, I didn't seethe world.
So I'd rather you tell me.
You know privately and inperson, you know what I mean.
Then the world tell me and I'mcaught with my pants down
looking crazy.
So you know.
That's why those things areimportant.
But I guess her friends didn'tpull her aside and say, hey,
people could interpret thisdifferently.
And I've been in situationslike that.
I had a friend who went toAfrica and posted all these
(09:16):
pictures with these adorableAfrican kids.
But then the caption is like ohwell, I gave them money and was
just going on and on.
Oh well, I gave them money andwas just going on and on, like
like, these particular childrenwere like so impoverished and
struggling and oh, what theyhave over there is nothing like
what we have here.
And it was like Don't know howto feel about this, because if
(09:37):
it's from the heart, why wouldyou have to say that?
You know what I mean.
So you get that conflictedfeeling.
And then I remember, years ago,having a friend tell me a story
about how they went to thisplace.
Their computer had broken andthey didn't have money to buy a
new one and they went to thisplace.
That was like, oh, yada, yada,if you make under x, we'll
donate computers to you and helpyou out, and they go.
But then when they get therethe people are like video.
(09:58):
What a video.
Testimony of their poverty,poverty.
What is this craziness Like?
If charity is from the heart,does it have to be advertised?
You know what I mean.
So, and people read it wrong.
So if you're the person that'sdoing that, you don't have the
friend that's telling you.
(10:19):
We're the friend that's tellingyou.
That doesn't look so good.
People interpret that away thatyou might not want to interpret
it.
So maybe not, you know, maybejust let your duty be between
you, the person you help andwhatever higher power you
believe in.
But yeah, but it was superinteresting, though.
(10:39):
Um, I wonder how she feltdiscovering that her friends
really weren't her friendsbecause, like I said, there was
a lot of entitled white womantalk and a lot of white savior
complex talk going on, and it'sjust like I wonder.
Oh, and then the most fun partthat I liked about it was when
(11:02):
the woman who wrote the storyhad to, at one point, defend it,
and she was basically, you know, talking about the white savior
narrative and the woman'sentitlement, and then she was
basically like you know, mystory wasn't about this person
and they shouldn't want it to beabout them.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
She was basically like why would you claim this?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just feel like both of themcould have handled the
situations differently, whereas,um, so the the person who wrote
the story, just to keep fromthings from escalating from the
(11:40):
start, I think there's twothings that could have been done
that letter that kind ofsparked off the plagiarism type
conversation.
If it had been writteninitially, like the initial time
it was published, to maybe havethe feel of the letter but not
actual sentences from it, that'sone thing.
(12:04):
It eventually was published tohave the feel of it, but if that
was how it was from the start,that could have stopped some
things.
And then, two, I felt like ifshe had picked some other sort
of donation or charity that isselfless but also can be seen as
narcissistic, white privilegeor, you know, white savior,
(12:26):
complex, it would have kept theintent of her story without
having to directly be pointed atthis one person, and then
everyone in her circle wouldhave known it was this one
person, um, and that could havebeen, you know, their inside
chuckle or whatever, but butthen like it could have
protected her from all of thelitigation and all that stuff
(12:47):
that subsequently happened.
Um, and then the other personjust went too far, like just
from the start, like all thelike, the messaging, and she
kept hounding this woman.
Did you like?
Basically like are you writinga story about me?
Did you write it?
And like the lady wasn'tresponding, so she doesn't owe
you anything, and that whole.
(13:09):
That that's the privilege partof the privilege part, where
she's like pushing and pushingand it's just like if you have a
story to tell, tell your story.
Stop antagonizing this otherperson.
And basically to me it seemedlike a little bit of harassment,
even like after the fact, whereI guess this was years later
(13:29):
where the writer is doing likevirtual um, like book stuff,
panels and that sort of thing,and that lady has joined them,
um, and to me that's like it'slike threatening and stalkerish
and it's weird.
And so it's just like you kindof see even from the New York
(13:52):
Times article why people feelnot so great about this lady in
the first place.
But then, like I said, thereare other things that could have
been done on the other end tokeep the story from pointing
directly towards her.
But yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
She could have made it like a bone marrow donation,
for example.
Yeah, and fun fact, I heardthat the woman in question, dawn
Dorland, is the one who donatedthe kidney.
And fun fact, I heard that itwas her who actually approached
the times, so I don't think shewas expecting the article to be
scathing of her as well well,that's it.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
You don't know your own blind spots.
You think like that, where youthink you're so in the right,
and it's just like, oh, you're alittle off here too, and I, I
love that.
The person who wrote thatarticle put it all in it, like
like, these are theirpersonalities and this is you
know, and and from her own words, from her own words and her own
(14:52):
actions, um, it's just like,okay, you think you're in the
right, but I'm holding thismirror up to you again.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I can't believe it.
I don't know.
And Sonia Larson was the onewho allegedly lifted the real
life act and wrote the story,and her story was called the
Kindness which is the title, isalso kind of funny too.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Just in retrospect of all the whole situation you're
right, it was.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Her responses were over the top.
Situation.
You're right, her responseswere over the top.
Definitely I wouldn't havewritten to the festivals and
schools that she attended.
If I was going to sue then Iwould have sued, you know what I
(15:44):
mean.
But I would have just left itat that.
I wouldn't have done all theother stuff.
But the friend was like equallywrong too, if you look at the
situation.
Like they said, the earlierdraft had.
She had written a letter to theperson who donated kidneys.
He had posted that on Facebookas well, dawn had yeah.
Yeah, dawn had, and, like yousaid, parts of that letter were
(16:05):
in the original draft.
In the original draft of thenovel the main character's name
was Dawn she later changed it toRose.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
It's just like stuff like that, like it's on paper,
like it's on.
You know, let's do those thingsfrom the start instead of yeah,
right.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
And to me, like I said, to me it showed a lot of
human nature, because peopledon't know their blind spots.
That woman didn't know hers.
Clearly she thought she was inthe right.
The friend thought she was inthe right, but I don't think any
of them were actual friends.
They were friends and I thinkSonia even said that she didn't
see this person were actualfriends.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
They were friends and I think Sonia even said that
she didn't see this person as afriend.
She never did.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
So that brought us to the question of how do we build
healthy friendships inpublishing?
What do publishing and writingfriendships look like?
So would you like to share astory about any author
friendships or author friendshipdrama that you can or should?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
we start with our story and how we met um.
We met in the drexel mfaprogram.
We were part of the secondcohort, um, but we were on
different tracks.
You were in the fiction programand I was in the screenwriting
program at the time, and so Iremember and it was during COVID
, so we didn't get to meet inperson until we were about just
about to graduate, during ourlast residency.
(17:37):
But I remember seeing yourpicture in like the like the
really message boards, but likethe boards, and when we had some
classes together and we wouldhave to post in the little
boards and read people's things,um, and I, like I was like, oh,
I want to be friends with thisperson.
And so when it came time forthe, the reading for my cohort
(17:59):
so we were screenwriters, sothen we had to get other people
to read, read for us, and Ireached out to you and you were
great and said, yes and um, wemet in person, that, that, what
the day before or whatever, butthen really got to know each
other that that night, um, andwe've been friends ever since
and, funny enough, I think, isthat the only time we've been in
(18:20):
person.
Yeah, yeah, it's weird, I feellike I've known you forever but
at weekends, but yeah only timewe've ever seen each other in
person.
So, yeah, and so it's just beenlike a really great budding
friendship and I'm learningstuff about fiction from you and
hopefully trying to show yousome things about screenwriting
(18:46):
as well show you some thingsabout screenwriting, um as well
and, like it's been a positivefriendship.
So this is what been one of mypositive um writer friendships.
You are got all these amazingthings happening, um, since you
graduated and I'm just so happyand proud and I, I like that I
get to read some things ahead oftime, which is cool, and you've
(19:08):
always been very supportive ofme.
So we have a good friendship,we do, we do.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
My version of it, though, is different.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
So my version of the weekend we met is I hadn't seen
you before.
Like we did have class together, um, but I'm really not good in
the like virtual and discordspace.
I'm not the girl that engageslike at all the time and so I
(19:40):
didn't like remember the facesand the names and stuff.
You know what I mean.
And then when we got togetherat the graduation and stuff, it
was a predominantly whiteenvironment.
So when you see the brown facesin a predominantly white
environment, you're like, oh hey, this is nice to see somebody
(20:02):
that looks like you in a sea ofpeople that don't.
Basically.
So I did remember like lookingat you, like hey, cool to know
her.
You know what I mean, but Idon't remember you from the
classes.
And then I my experience of itwas like I said, the first day
at lunch I went out to lunchwith these girls and kind of
(20:23):
felt a little clicky.
You know the environment atthat time.
Um, it was a lot of literarypeople in my cohort and I'm
fantasy, so I didn't exactly fitmaybe we should do a podcast
about literary versus genre aswell so, like I said, we went
out to lunch everybody.
(20:43):
When they dismissed for lunch,we all walked out.
We got lunch together, we sat,we ate, we ch and I thought it
went really well.
But then the next day, when itwas time for lunch, they
beelined out and left me.
I was pitiful, all by myself.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Well, damn.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
So I guess I'll go to my room.
So I got some food and I wentup to my room and then I think
it was later that that day, likearound the dinner time, wasn't
it when I met you, or was it thenext day at lunch.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I can't remember.
It might've been around dinnertime, is that what you were like
?
Waiting for your food, and Icame in with some other people,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
And then I just kind of latched on.
I was desperate forcompanionship during the lunch
break, so I attached myself tothe group.
And then we started talking andthen later on they had another
break between different panelsand classes and stuff that were
going on in the residency.
(23:07):
And then it was me, you and Moand y'all were trying to decide
what you wanted to do, becausethis wasn't a long break, it was
maybe 20 minutes or somethingor 30.
And you were trying to figureout what you wanted to do and
then I was like, hey, I got aroom in the hotel, just come on
up, we'll chat.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
And then you guys came up and that's when we
really started talking becauseyou and mo were part of my
reading and then yeah, we wentup to them, or chatting, yeah,
what's the beginning so my, mystrongest memory was of being
abandoned the next day.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Then be like well, like well.
So then, when I saw you, I waslike screw and hope they don't
shake me loose.
I've always been awkward.
That was my awkwardness again.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
And that's like.
It's funny, though, because,like I've always been that
person too that people just likeabandon and run away from.
And it's just like I'm a kindperson.
What is this?
It's the awkwardness, I guess.
I don't know, and I can bepretty quiet sometimes too.
We latched on to each other.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Here we are, yeah, and the lesson in that is that
writer friendships, they can befun, they can be exciting, but
they can also be challenging.
When you have people who youshare ambitions and goals with,
it can get weird sometimes.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
So let's talk about some of the weirdness sure, I
mean I have another writerfriend that I knew from the
first grad program that I didlike first MFA program, still a
very good friend.
Love her dearly, hey, ernie.
Um, but for me, um, so likeshe's, she published a book and
(24:46):
then published things, um, andI've never been like jealous of
people.
It's always been like I'm happyfor them doing what they set
out to do.
It's always more of a well,what, why haven't you done this
yet?
Like.
It's more of like beatingmyself up type thing, um, so I
remember, um, I had a friendthat published a book and it
(25:10):
took me more than a year torealize that I didn't buy it and
I was like, oh shit, like, whatkind of a friend am I?
Like?
Buy my friend's book?
Jesus, what is wrong with you?
Um, so I did so, I did buy thebook and then it took me a while
to read it.
Um, because I know there werelike some stories that were in
(25:33):
there for that I had read a partof or knew about or whatever,
and it was just hard because itwas just like, you know, this
person was able to do this, whyaren't you?
They are also working full time.
I have other friends who havechildren and that family and
that sort of thing, and so forme it's always been this battle
(25:55):
of beating myself up.
Sorry, I'm getting emotional,uh, and that's something I've
been working through and it'sfor like 15 years.
It's like working through thatand uh, and having you has been
really great because you likecontact me, we'll be talking, be
like, what are you working on?
And so it keeps me honest ofwhether I'm working on something
(26:17):
or not.
But like, um, especially morerecently, I'm pushing because
I'm like I'm seeing my friendsdo this and it's just like I
have these skills too.
You know there's nothingdifferent from us.
Also, like I, it's helping me,um, so like for me, like I've
(26:38):
never been so jealous of someoneto be like mean towards them or
like not talk to them orwhatever.
It's more beating myself up, um.
But there was those moments, um,especially early on, where I
couldn't read, um what people Iknew had published, because it's
just, it's just, you know,added more to my own self
saturation or whatever the wordis.
(27:00):
Uh, self, you know, doubt andall that kind of stuff.
But now it's different now, nowI'm not like that anymore.
I'm just like you know, I canread stuff like they haven't
been put, like for you, hasn'tbeen published yet or for, and
like give feedback, like be areader, um, for people, um, so,
yeah, so that there's that forme in terms of how I've felt
(27:25):
about friends who have written.
Um, I don't know, do you wantme to go on in terms of how
other writer friends havetreated me, or are we gonna?
You want to go ahead?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Okay, well, actually, before you go there, I want to
talk about what you just talkedabout, cause I've experienced
that too and that's very realand very human and very natural.
I had a friend, who I'm goingto give as much detail as I can,
without giving away who I'mtalking to, cause I don't want
them to watch it and be like notyet anyway.
(27:59):
But I had a friend who had agreat deal of success pretty
quick into their publishing pathand they reached some of my
dreams and lifelong goals inpublishing.
And this was at a time when Iwasn't even agented yet and we
started out together at the sametime and then they just hit.
So then it was like damn, youknow, it's like yay for her, so
(28:23):
happy for her, and really likefrom the bottom of my heart, was
happy for her, was proud forher, was showing people this is
my friend, you know what I meanand like I'd be at work pulling
it up and showing people, soexcited for her.
But at the same time it causedthat same self-doubt that you
were talking about for myselfand I was like, damn, do I suck?
Why is this not happening forme too?
(28:43):
Am I terrible?
Is people just too kind to tellme?
So I get that.
And those emotions arecompletely valid and we all go
through that.
So like it's beautiful to havefriends who share goals and
ambitions because you can talkto them about things other
people might not understand,like querying of submission and
revision, hell, and all of thestuff and the emotions that go
(29:08):
into it, and even like askprofessional advice.
But it's also hard because whenyou have friends with the same
goals and ambitions, you knoweverybody doesn't make it at the
same time, so then you have todeal with when they're up and
you're down or vice versa, andthen that can make it like messy
and complicated.
The story we just saw was messy, or talked about was messy and
(29:31):
complicated, so it can getchallenging.
Now talk about what people havedone to you yeah so.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
So I'm not in a position.
So I've been attempting towrite and whatever for quite a
while, but I'm, like I said,beating myself up and not really
putting things out there.
I'm not in a place where I canhelp people do anything.
I can help people like connectpeople to certain people.
(30:02):
I might be now in a sense, but Ifeel like writer friends that
I've had have viewed me as andeven should I even call them
friends someone who can't helpthem, um, get published or get
to help them reach their goal ona particular way, to connect
(30:24):
them to people in the industryin that sort of way.
So therefore, it was just kindof I felt like their distance
was put there because I'm notuseful to them, and so I see
that, okay, then these peoplearen't actually my friends.
(30:46):
And if and when I do get tothose no, certain people and
maybe I do at this point I feellike those aren't folks that I
would go out of my way to helpor connect um, because you
weren't my friends, you weren'there just for me as a human
(31:06):
being, um.
So therefore, why go out of myway for that?
I don't know if that's a goodway to think, but way for that.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
I don't know if that's a good way to think, but
human, it's real.
Why would you bend overbackwards for people?
Speaker 3 (31:25):
who wouldn't bend a pinky to?
Assist you not even asking mehow I am, or like it's like okay
, well, you don't really careabout me so yeah, that's the
crazy thing about.
Oh, go ahead, I'm sorry I justI think that's an importance for
anybody who's any in any sortof industry or whatever.
Where you are can be next togatekeepers, in a sense.
(31:48):
Um, to beware of that.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
You know, why are people getting close to you or
in your life, whatever and theycan also go other ways too,
because there are scenarioswhere people could warm up to
somebody who hasn't made it yet,because they want to get closer
to someone who has.
You know what I mean.
So there's like layers to howpeople can be backstabby and
(32:18):
messy and what they think ispower.
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, exactly how they can exploit to try to get
close to it.
We're not realizing sometimes,people in areas where you think
there is no power, thereactually is great power.
You're just not seeing Becausenot everybody is flashy like
that.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
You got to protect yourself and protect the people
around you.
Exactly, Exactly, Exactly,Exactly.
I felt that too Earlier in myjourney.
I remember being at the LiteraryAwards one time and I was
always in this weird positionwhere I would interview authors.
So I was always like side frompublishing but hadn't reached my
(33:04):
publishing goals yet.
So I would be networking withpeople who had, like, reached
all kinds of heights but I'mstill in the query trenches, I'm
still just trying to make it.
And in a lot of ways it wasstrategy because it was
networking.
It was trying to meet peopleand trying to get in the room
where you if this is your dreamyou want to be in the room where
(33:27):
it's happening, kind of thing.
But the downside about that iswhen you're in the room and you
haven't really reached thosegoals yet, then a lot of times
you get that, that feeling whereyou were talking about where
people are like look past youand not necessarily at you yeah
or like one time I had a writer,um, who was way more
accomplished than me, who, who Ithought we were friends with.
(33:48):
Like I felt like kind of tryingto put me down intentionally,
like she's introducing me tosomeone and she's like, oh,
she's got like thousands oflittle books on Amazon, which is
not true at all.
Like I had one at the time,really bad book that I did very
early in my writing career.
That book that I did very earlyin my writing career.
(34:09):
You know my skills have grownway from that point more than a
decade ago, but it was only one.
It wasn't like a million littlebooks, you know what I mean.
So to me it felt like that wasvery much of a condescending,
meant to put me down or to putme in a certain category to this
other person who was also moreestablished.
And so I had lots of thoselittle moments where you felt
like you're there but you don'tnecessarily belong.
(34:30):
And then I've also had the flipside, like once you start
selling books or getting agency,you're, you're moving into a
different area than it's like.
Sometimes some of the peoplewho treated you like that start
to now be nicer.
And then it's like but yeah,you're full of it because you
didn't really actually like me,because I remember how you
treated me before I sold thebook.
(34:51):
You know what I mean.
So it's a lot of performativefriendships.
You know a lot of associatetype relationships where people,
like, will take pictures withyou and call you bestie or
sister or cousin or whatever,and then you see them like what?
Once or twice a year at anauthor event.
(35:12):
You know what I mean, yeah, andthen they're the ones who are
like actual legitimate friends,who will call you and check on
you, who will be like I haven'theard from you in a while, are
you good, or I'm having thisthing, can you come?
You know what I mean, so mean,so so it.
It's a vast variety ofawkwardness and people never
(35:35):
know where, and also anybodylistening to this.
Please don't assume I'm talkingabout you, because likely I'm
not.
So please don't.
You know how people like tolike think you're self-tweeting
and you're not.
No, not.
So don't be like.
You know getting your feelingsabout stuff that may have
nothing to do with you at all.
I could be talking aboutsomebody totally different, so
don't even stress yourself outexactly.
(35:58):
Don't stress yourself out, don'tbe like the bad author friend.
I go plotting my downfall andit might even probably most
likely you are mentioning in myinterview communication exactly.
So yeah, it's complicated.
(36:19):
And, going back briefly to thestory we just talked about,
there's also a thin line betweenlike inspiration and what they
did wrong in that story, becausesometimes friendships can
inspire you.
So sometimes when people arereading into things, it might be
(36:42):
a grain of truth, but usuallyit's not.
You know, most people aren'tthe kidney stealing friend.
Most people don't go intofriendships.
Well, most legitimate peopledon't go into friendships with
the.
What can I get from this?
They go into this with the.
I want to know you, I want tobe cool with you.
Space and that story made mecautious because I'm in some
(37:05):
debut groups and I told you Ihost like the author meetups
like once a month and I reallywant to do one specific to
authors of color too, becausesometimes we have different
issues that have to be addressed.
But like it makes you scaredbecause, like I don't do the
discord a lot, a lot of peopledo.
A lot of people stay in thosedebut discords texting all day,
(37:27):
but I'm not trying to put a tonof shit in writing you shouldn't
I mean, I know we're writers.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
But you know there are thin signs.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
You have to think of legal aspects right, especially
like some of them have, like theventing and ranting segments,
and people will get in there andvent and rant and hopefully
it's a safe space, but some ofthose groups can have like up to
400 people in them, so there'sso you should consider it public
when the group's that large.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
I mean and also you have to think about, well, going
back to the story where we justtalked about, because there was
court proceedings, all thatstuff, all of the text messages
and the group chat and stuff gotum, what discovery was part of
discovery.
So you know what you think itall became public yeah, it all
(38:11):
became public.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
So in the moment what you think are private spaces,
because later on become public,because something happens and is
being litigated and there's theright to put that stuff out
there so and that's why I do themonthly meetups, because I'm a
more, I'm more of a face-to-facegal, like to me, like even with
us, like right now, like how wesaid, we've only met in person
(38:34):
the one you know, weekend orwhatever.
But when you face to face, youfeel more of a connection, you
feel like you know the person.
It's like you're actuallyhanging out with the person, and
I prefer that than theconstantly text with strangers,
because the way my mind works, Iwon't commit the faces to the
names, and so to me it wouldn'thave the same depth it might to
(38:56):
you, because I might respond toyou in the thing and then you're
thinking that we formed thisrelationship.
But in my head, if you're one of400 names on a screen, I'm not
remembering all them, my memoryis not that great, but if I see
you in a Zoom then I can be likeoh, there she is, you know what
I mean.
That resonates with me andconnects with me more.
But it also, like I said, itmade me more cautious in how I
communicate In a Zoom or aprivate chat space.
(39:20):
I'll be more candid about thepros, the cons, the things I'm
going through that you want toknow as an artist like is this
person reputable?
Is that person, what's yourexperience?
I'll be completely transparentin a private setting, but
there's certain things Icouldn't or wouldn't say
publicly right and you shouldn'tright well.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Also, I have to tell you, my fears in this started in
high school.
So AOL, instant messenger aimfor those of you who are old
like I um, I used to, you know,talk to that, you know to my
friends on that a lot, andbecause I thought they were my
(39:59):
friends, I would just say what Iwanted to say and things.
And I later found that a personwas printing them out, um, and
letting our other friends readthem, um, and so there were
things that I told this personthat I wouldn't have told or
said to the other people, um,and it it was done to embarrass
(40:23):
me and it created a lot of shamefor me, um, so just, I don't
know why I'm telling this.
I just reminded me of somethingthat happened, but it was like
very traumatic at the time andum has caused, uh, issues for me
in terms of, like, trustingpeople and writing things down
(40:45):
and that sort of thing.
So just be careful.
I guess is the main theme of itall in terms of who you're
friends with, who you thinkyou're friends with, and
understand there are levels offriendship.
So someone might be your bestfriend but that doesn't
(41:06):
necessarily mean you are theirbest friend.
Very true.
So things like that.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
And I also think it's important too, because there's
levels in publishing too.
As we go through them, becausewe all go through them at
different timelines, Don'tabandon anybody because you
wouldn't have wanted to beabandoned in that space, and
because shit changes, you knowwhat.
I mean, you never know who thatperson might end up being
(41:32):
exactly that person might be thenext Tyler Perry or somebody,
and you burn that bridge for noreason Tyler Perry told a story
about.
I wish I could remember thestory, but it was about the
first time he met Oprah and hewas like working at a hotel or
something, and so he wasn'tTyler.
He wasn't anywhere near Tylerbut thankfully that wasn't a
(41:57):
horrible memory in his mindBecause later on, when Owen was
in trouble, tyler was one of thepeople that came along and
helped save the network you knowwith his writing skills and
stuff.
So I forget the story, though Iwish I could repeat it.
But just said my memory is notthat grand.
But yeah, on the opposite sideof the story, I told earlier
(42:28):
where I was like when my friendwas up and then I was still down
.
How that made self-doubt waswhen I had something happen that
I was excited aboutprofessionally and I shared it
with friends and one friend'slike and the other friend's just
like clearly pissed, visiblypissed, like you could see it
all over her face, and it wasawkward because it put me in a
(42:52):
position of questioning thefriendship because, like I said,
I was in spaces where I wasdown and my friend was up before
and I was legitimately happyfor her.
So even if I had someself-doubt emerge from her joy
where I was like, well damn, ithappened to me, am I not good
enough?
It never made me mad at hersuccess I was legitimately happy
(43:13):
for and rooting for.
So to see legitimate anger onthe face in my good news just
made me be like wow, is thisperson actually my friend?
Like um, were we justassociates in this weird
industry?
You know what I mean?
It just changed my view of thatperson drastically.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
That sucks, yeah, but I feel like in any industry
really, it's just par for thecourse With any success that
anybody has, or people who willbe happy for you and other
people who aren't, and you justhave to focus on being happy
(44:01):
with yourself and then you knowif you've got the people around
you who are happy for you.
That's amazing.
And who cares about the haters?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
exactly.
You have to be happy for your,your friends, without feeling
like it dims you in any way,because it doesn't, because
everybody's on separate journeysand separate times and you know
you'll find your writingsoulmates you, you will?
Speaker 3 (44:29):
yes, um, I have to.
It's been a long process for me, like just trying to find my
group of people trying to findmy crew and like I feel like I
do, um, have folks now and itmakes a difference.
It makes a huge difference likeI don't have as much of that
self-doubt anymore.
Um, you know, I have writerfriends to talk about things
(44:49):
with and to to lift me up.
So try and find your circle anddon't worry about the people,
don't worry about the haters.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
You'll find the people who write for you I'm the
people who have theperformative friendships where
it's like less ride or die andmore comment and tag.
Some of the writer clicks can bekind of high school, but you
(45:18):
know, give that some grace too,because you got to keep in mind
that a lot of times I find thatthat happens with people who are
on a different level than you,or at least in the scenarios
where I ran into that, a lot oftimes it was the people who were
more established in theirwriting career than I was at the
time.
And being that they were on amore established level, maybe
they had people approaching themunder the guise of friendship
who were really trying to get aleg up or get ahead or get this
(45:39):
or get that from them.
So maybe it wasn't so much ofan intentionally trying to feel
unwelcome.
Maybe it was more of a myguards up a little bit you know
what I mean Because I don't wantto be exploited or mistreated
and then, as I mentionedpreviously, I'm socially awkward
, so maybe they didn't evenrealize I was feeling any of
this you know, you know, mostwriters are introverts, most of
(46:04):
us are awkward people and I amADD as hell.
I uh talk a lot.
I interrupt because the damnadd just is excited and jumping
into conversations.
So I'm not for everybody, andthat's okay.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
You're not gonna like everybody, that's okay yeah,
you're not gonna like everybodyand everybody's not gonna like
you, and that's okay.
I'm like the opposite, I'm morequiet and I'm a listener, so
like we have the compliments andnow that I understand you, and
then it's just kind of like ohokay, well, she's got an idea,
so let her say it.
(46:39):
It's not, I don't have aproblem with you like jumping in
because I understand where it'scoming from.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
It's.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
I don't have a problem with you like jumping in
because I understand where it'scoming from.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
That's not you're not trying to diminish me.
You got to get it out, that'sfine.
Yeah, my memory is shitty.
So sometimes if I don't jump inand say it, if I wait, I'll
forget it.
You'll be like what were yousaying?
I'll be like, damn, I don'tknow.
And then, like I said, thereare some people who are the
social climbers that only talkto you once you're agented or
(47:09):
once you start making steps inthe right direction, and
sometimes you got to be like jaymarie and just be like if you
weren't there for me, then Idon't know about now.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
set healthy boundaries, whatever works for
you yeah, trust your gut, as Isay you, I feel like you'll know
the types of people, especiallyif you're around people for a
while.
You know why they're around,you'll know, um, and then you
can figure out what you want todo with that, so let's give
advice for people on trying tofind right friendships um.
(47:43):
See, here's where I'mconflicted, because all of my
writer friends I found in mfaprograms and those cost money
yes, that's a lot of money butyeah, if you're, if you've got
local writing groups, try those.
Um, those haven't always workedfor me, um, but they have.
(48:07):
Do they still have like onlineones?
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I know you have a writer friends that you, a
friend that you met for with anonline group it was a critique
group, an online critique groupum, I wish I could remember the
name of it, but I don't.
But yeah, we met probably likemaybe 2014, 2015, something like
that, and volunteer and stuff.
(48:33):
Look for writing festivals orliterary awards or different
events in your area andvolunteer there.
And the people we meet who arealso volunteering wouldn't be
volunteering there if theyweren't interested in writing
and publishing.
So it's a great place to makefriends with people with similar
interests check your librariestoo.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
Libraries always have different book things that's
true.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Sometimes they have like book clubs volunteers for
yeah and sometimes they havebook clubs and stuff like that.
Um, I know at my librarysometimes, like during NaNoWriMo
, we'll have different programs.
That might be a good way tomeet local writers.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
During what.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
NaNoWriMo.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
What's that?
Speaker 2 (49:14):
National Writing Month, national Book Writing
Month.
I probably say it's terriblebecause I've never participated
in NaNo.
I've failed it many times, likeat least two or three.
I've never successfullycompleted, I should say.
But it's like this challenge inNovember where people try to
write a book and I'm off.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
Oh, interesting, that's a lot yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
NaNoWriMo, it's called so a lot of library.
Well, my library has eventsaround that, so I'm assuming
many others.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
may Many others do as well.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Join critique groups online Offer swap pages.
Join critique groups onlineoffer swap pages.
Join pitch contests and stuff.
If you make it into the contestthen you know the mentors and
the other mentees might bebudding friendships.
Sometimes there's a lot of likewriting aspiring writer,
facebook friends groups andstuff like that where you can
(50:05):
meet people, slide intosomebody's, zoom in their DM
excuse me, strike up aconversation.
I wouldn't start with thebiggest names and yeah, because
they probably get a lot of DMslides and a lot of people
approaching them and sometimespeople have agendas so they will
(50:27):
probably be less receptive.
So start with people on yourlevel.
If you're querying, look forquerying writers.
If you're aspiring, look foraspiring writers.
And if you guys are all workingtoward the same goal,
eventually one of you will makeit, eventually two of you will
make it.
You know what I mean.
And then you know you'll haveyour circle of people in the
(50:49):
professional realm of it too.
And when you find the good ones, show up for them publicly and
privately.
Don't ditch them because you'releveled up.
Don't post about how good afriend you are without actually
being the friend yeah be thefriend in real life, like if you
can't be there physically, youguys can zoom and chat yeah, I
(51:12):
do that with all my friends,because I'm nowhere near any of
them now, what are red flags youthink they could look for with
these new friendships?
Speaker 3 (51:23):
oh, that's a good question.
Um, I mean, let's see red flagpeople trying to figure out if
and who you know anyone.
Because normally, like you know, I feel like in my
conversations with my writerfriends, those things come about
(51:48):
in a sense because you get to aplace where you trust and like
we could talk about certainthings, but someone's just like
outright trying to figure thatout from the beginning.
That's small psych agenda to me.
Um, if they're someone's askingyou for a lot of your help and
reading their work, whatever,and they're not giving that same
thing in return, um, yeah, andjust simply.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
I mean, sometimes people just disappear yeah, they
vanish when your good news ismore than their good news at the
time yeah or they only reachout when they need something.
Speaker 3 (52:23):
That goes hand in hand with what you were saying
earlier like I've had peoplereaching out to see what I'm
doing, if anything has happened.
And then when I'm like, oh, I'mworking on this, but like
nothing's been produced orwhatever, then they go, and what
are some green flags that theyshould look for in?
Speaker 2 (52:42):
good friends, good writer friends.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
I mean just a good friend, um, just someone who is
interested in you as a person?
Um, to me that's a huge greenflag.
And then the, the?
Um commonality of writing as aninterest and reading as an
interest is a bonus.
(53:05):
All my writer friends.
I feel like, well, maybe Ican't say that I was going to
say I feel like we were friendsfirst, but then with you and I I
don't know that I can actuallysay that because we met because
of the writing.
I don't know, it was weird withyou.
I feel like I met, I feel likeI've always known you, like we
(53:27):
were friends in a past life orsomething.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
Yeah, true, true, true.
I feel like good green flagsare good things to look out for
as they celebrate your wins andthey're genuinely happy for you.
They they make space for yourlows.
And they're not just there forthe launches and the fun times,
(53:49):
but when you're going throughcrap, you can call them in wine
or vent and they ask you youknow what you're working on, how
your writing's feeling.
And they're not just concernedabout what's selling, because
when you're a writer, writing ispart of who you are, so it's
not just about what's selling.
And what's weird is like if youplay basketball, nobody's like
(54:12):
when are you going to the NBA?
You know what I mean.
If you have a hobby of swimming, nobody's like well, when are
you going to be the next MichaelPhelps?
But when you're writing,everybody's like well, when are
you going to sell this?
And it can't just be becauseit's something that's a passion
that you love, that's a part ofwho you are.
It always has to be a monetarything attached to it and while
(54:33):
it's cool when you get themonetary, when the monetary is
not coming, it doesn't feel coolbecause it feels almost like
almost like a value judgment onyour work and you, which is very
hurtful, because I've been onthe receiving end of that many,
many times.
Speaker 3 (54:54):
Two things I want to say before I forget them.
Going back to the green flagsand the friendships and stuff,
you will have more acquaintancesthan anything.
So I'm not saying, you know,don't be friendly or whatever
with the acquaintances who onlyshow up to the launch parties
(55:15):
and that sort of thing, becausethat's really for most of the
people you're going to knowanyway.
So I'm not saying and we're notsaying, oh, those are bad
people, you know, that's justhow most of it is going to go.
They're there.
They showed up for your success,so that's a good thing as well.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
And I already forgot the other thing I was like and
the tag and post friends are notbad either, like the people,
like we were saying, who onlyshow up at events once a year or
who post a picture with you ortag you.
That's not a bad thing eitherbecause guess what?
They're promoting you, they'resharing you when they post you
with their audience, which isstill a good thing.
So it's not saying that they abad friend.
It's just saying that you can'talways believe everything you
see on social media.
(55:54):
The social media will havesomebody believing that this
person is your ride or die, yourbeginning and your end.
And really they're a person yousee maybe two or three times a
year.
So don't judge your life andyourself by other people's
experiences, because some of thebonds that you're seeing on
their timeline aren't evenactual bonds of depth.
So associates are good.
Especially of the bonds thatyou're seeing on their timeline
(56:15):
aren't even actual bonds of debt.
So associates are good,especially in the business.
It's mutual promotion and it'smutually beneficial.
And you know they still knowthe business so you might be
able to still reach out and aska question about it.
So we're definitely notknocking that, but it can get
complicated.
I've found a lot of friends dothe author interviews and that
gets complicated.
I'm a freelance writer.
I write and pitch twopublications.
I am not a staff writer forsaid publications, so not
(56:39):
everything I write and pitchgets picked up.
Sometimes they won't want it,sometimes they won't like it.
Sometimes, like real life canintervene, like even with Donald
Clayton she's new york timesbestseller done big things.
When I interviewed with herfirst time I interviewed her
january 6th happened when theystormed the capitol and stuff so
(57:01):
I pitched the article.
I heard back from his magazinethey're like we love it, we're
gonna run it.
January 6th happens they hit meback.
They're like sorry, right nowthe news cycle is of nothing but
people storming the Capitol.
So, then it wasn't going tohappen.
So then I'm thinking, oh great,she's going to think I'm a liar
.
I told her they were going torun it.
So I'm like you know, and thenI had just got signed on to work
(57:22):
for a company at the time.
So you know me, I anxietyspiraling, thinking she's
probably on to the nextinterview.
But in my head this is where myanxiety spiral goes.
So then I'm like circling back,circling back, circling back,
trying to see like, hey, uh,have we moved on in the news
(57:44):
cycle?
Not yet.
Can we come back to my?
And then, finally, you know,and then, um it, the tiny pretty
things, um, that she co-wrotehit went on Netflix and it was
like in the top 10.
So then I circle back again andthen this time I'm like top 10
in Netflix, in the US watchshows.
And then they put it out.
(58:05):
But, like, sometimes stuff likethat happens, sometimes they're
stuttered, sometimes they'llpublish it, sometimes they won't
.
Lately, with all the AI stuffout there, to be honest with you
, sometimes pitching is hardbecause you're not only
competing with real writers butyou're competing with articles
for the same bandwidth and thesame publications, and so, like
(58:25):
you know, so, while it's greatfor meeting people.
Sometimes it can make thingschallenging because I can meet
people, we can have greatconversations.
I'm like, wow, I'd love to betheir friend.
And then like either thearticle won't come out and
they're looking at me like Iwasted their time, or it might,
but it might come out way later,because they didn't initially,
wasn't interested.
And then I just like tried away to reframe it, like instead
(58:47):
of talking about craft, nowwe're talking about book banning
, and I just honed in on adifferent part, pitched it again
.
I don't know, it gets weird, itgets complicated, but I guess
what I'm trying to say is givepeople grace, because you don't
know what's going on behind thescenes, and we've all felt this
(59:11):
thing of fake friends and thesilence.
Speaker 3 (59:13):
That can be deafening .
Yeah, it can be deafening.
Yeah, it can be.
Yeah, um, oh, I just remembered.
The other thing I wanted to saywas, um, when you're talking
about writing and monetizing it,I myself had to reframe that
thought and go back to thinkingas writing as a fun thing that I
do, and if one day that happensin terms of monetization great
(59:45):
it's not I'm still doingsomething that I feel is fun for
me, so that can help smooththings over.
We can get rid of some of thatanxiety in terms of being a
writer.
Don't forget why you startedwriting in the first place.
Speaker 2 (59:59):
Right Cause, it's therapy, it's good mental health
Sometimes, where, sometimesit's how we process emotion and
pain and there's no monetaryvalue that can be placed on.
That, you know.
But if you want to pay us forit, please do.
A period of value that can beplaced on that, you know, but if
you want to pay us for it,please do so.
If you're taylor swift, beinginspired by your exes to write
great songs, or if you're thekidney lady inspired by your
(01:00:23):
friend's donation, um, you know,inspiration is okay.
Just don't make, just don't bea shitty friend who's like.
Only intent in the friendshipis to mind the person for
information.
And if you're inspired, um,don't go verbatim, making it
(01:00:46):
obvious that it's that person.
You can take two or threeelements from each person, like
from three different people, toform a character and still tell
the same story in a way thatwon't get you in legal trouble.
It might have, um, this onecharacter's ambition, this one
person's ambition, this otherperson's donation, but you
(01:01:07):
change it to bone marrow insteadof a kidney and it could have
this third person's temper, andyou can swirl all that up into a
mix to make a unique individualthat is not a carbon copy of
someone that'll get you introuble.
Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
You need to write it.
Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Yeah, watch your boundaries, guard your circle,
be careful who you open up to,be careful what you put in
writing and have fun.
Yeah, have fun, have fun.
Make friends and that's it fortoday's episode.
If this resonated with you,drop us a dm, slide into our dms
(01:01:45):
and tell us how you liked itand share this with your writing
friends or your writingassociate.
We will tell.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4 (01:02:05):
That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD
Mayer.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
jdmayercom.
That's jdmayercom.
(01:02:26):
While you're there, join JD'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
writing journey.
(00:26):
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmyallcom.
That's jdmyallcom.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
On this episode of Craft Chat Chronicles.
We're going on a writer'sjourney.
Good writers and good friendsEnjoy.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of A
Writer's Journey.
In this episode, we're going tobe talking about writer
friendships and how great theycan be, but also, you know, some
things happen at times.
Put it that way to get uskicked off, jd.
Uh, what are we going to betalking about?
(01:10):
What are we starting with?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
well, I guess we could kick it off with a kidney,
talking about the infamous badart friend saga, literary feud
that turned into a viralcautionary tale about writing
friendships.
So if you missed this one,buckle up.
A writer donates a kidney,writes about it online in a
(01:33):
secret face group.
Her writer friend sees this andwrites her exact experience in
a short story.
The short story blows up,elevates her, her career, and
then she gets upset, so upsetthat she reaches out to schools
that this author is appearing atand accuses her of being like
(01:54):
plagiarizing and why are youhosting this person?
And then she goes to do a bookfestival and they were going to
give away tons of copies of thebook and she's posing with these
huge rock star writers and inpictures.
And the woman who donated thekidney is getting even more
upset because in the story thekidney donation is not looked at
(02:17):
as like this brilliant gift oflove.
It's looked at as like thisentitled white woman who has a
white savior complex, like thisentitled white woman who has a
white savior complex giving thekidney in a narcissistic act of
look at me, this is thewonderful, good thing I've done.
So she then reaches out to thefestival and she threatens to
(02:39):
sue them and she accuses thewoman of plagiarism and the
festival says okay, well, wedon't want to get sued, so we're
not hosting it this year.
So then the writer who took herfriend's story has her friends
reach out to the festival, andbasically her friends.
Some of them are real heavyhitters, like the lady who wrote
that Little Fires Everywhere,probably butchering the title,
(03:04):
but you know a?
lot of heavy, you know a lot ofwell-known writer friends, yeah,
yeah.
And they reach out andbasically the festival responds
by saying we have grounds to sueyou.
It shouldn't have beensubmitted to us in the first
place because of the wholeplagiarism accusations and we
can't, you know, distribute thisbecause we don't want to be
sued.
Stop having your friendscontact us.
(03:26):
So it's kind of a hit to hercareer.
So through the lawsuit, emailsare leaked and from the emails
and the group chat she realizedthat the woman who donated the
kidney really had no friends,because her friends were all
(03:47):
talking about her in doing thisand how distasteful it was to
post this kidney donation.
And like the one girl who wrotethe story is like, oh, she's a
literary goldmine, I could writeabout her forever because of
this, these type of antics andchoices, and so the group chats
(04:12):
all come out.
The literary world collectivelyside eyes and they're wondering
who's the villain.
And weirdly, the whole thingmade me think of Drake.
A lot of times we don't knowwhat we have blind spots to
(04:38):
until someone points us out.
And if you followed the wholeDrake, kendrick raps like he's
trying to free the slaves andyou just set Kendrick up for the
line where he's saying homiestill double down, trying to
call us slaves and called him acolonizer and all this stuff.
It's like he didn't see thatthose choices, through the lens
of culture, could have beeninterpreted differently.
(04:58):
And I think when this womanposted her journey of getting a
kidney to her, it was like thisis an important part of my life,
this is a great thing I'm doing.
She didn't realize thatculturally, through whatever
eyes other people were lookingat it, they could have
interpreted differently, like ifit was a good thing, why did
you have to brag about it?
Speaker 3 (05:16):
If it was by the other person, I feel like you're
giving her a lot of grace, butI mean, like she did it to get
she wanted I feel like shewanted to be liked and and you
know she wanted that admirationfrom these writers, particularly
probably because some of themare known, you know who are
(05:37):
doing well, and she wanted theirrespect and admiration.
And so it's like, yes, she did athing that is selfless, but at
the same time, she did it forthe wrong reasons.
What I'm understanding from thesituation and then all the
gossipy texts that came out, um,and so it's just like one of
(05:58):
these situations where, likeyou're saying, someone not
understanding their own blindspot and I'm not sure if someone
tried to explain that to herbefore the short story was
written and all that sort ofthing it seemed like people were
really just kind of got, kindof basically disgusted by it and
(06:20):
just kind of kept theirdistance, instead of saying, hey
, this seems in bad taste andhere's why.
But I get why nobody did that.
Or seems like no one did thatbecause these people weren't
they weren't really friendsanyway.
And, um, from my understandingthat the lady that wrote the
(06:40):
short story basically says that,like we weren't friends, um,
it's like okay, yeah, we're allpart of this writer's community,
um, and maybe giving each othersupport in some sort of way,
but from her perspective shewasn't necessarily friends with
this other woman, where theother woman, I guess, thought
they were very true.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
it's honestly very messy and I think that's what
made this story so compelling topeople online and made it go
viral.
It's because, first of all,they were all well-known writers
, so these were names peopleknew.
And then, secondly, to get topeek behind the curtain and see
the ins and outs and the messyyucca friendships was intriguing
.
But I don't know.
(07:25):
I'm I'm trying to give her alittle grace and shoot her a
little bail because I don't knowwhy, but maybe because we've
all, like, sometimes notrealized our own internalized
mess, like I remember one of myvery, very super early writing
(07:47):
experiences and this one never,like, saw the light of day.
So that's how long ago it was.
But I wrote this story and oneof my beta readers told me that
it had like echoes of misogynyand I remember being quite
embarrassed being a woman.
But when you consider, you know, growing up in the hip hop
culture, being raised on PurpleRain and stuff like that,
(08:08):
there's a lot of.
When you rewatch these thingsand you re-listen to things of
those times, you know what Imean.
There's a lot of misogyny incertain messaging that you're
exposed to, a lot to where youcan internalize it, even as a
woman and not realize it untilsomebody points it out to you.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
And then you're like well, this is culture in general
.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
True cultural in general, but I just use that as
an example, because you know Ilove it.
But, like I said, you know,sometimes we don't realize
things about ourselves untilsomebody points it out.
And then, once somebody pointsit out, you can be like oh wow,
I need to work on that.
And then you do.
And that's why beta readers andcrit partners are important,
(08:47):
because, thank God, I didn't seethe world.
So I'd rather you tell me.
You know privately and inperson, you know what I mean.
Then the world tell me and I'mcaught with my pants down
looking crazy.
So you know.
That's why those things areimportant.
But I guess her friends didn'tpull her aside and say, hey,
people could interpret thisdifferently.
And I've been in situationslike that.
I had a friend who went toAfrica and posted all these
(09:16):
pictures with these adorableAfrican kids.
But then the caption is like ohwell, I gave them money and was
just going on and on.
Oh well, I gave them money andwas just going on and on, like
like, these particular childrenwere like so impoverished and
struggling and oh, what theyhave over there is nothing like
what we have here.
And it was like Don't know howto feel about this, because if
(09:37):
it's from the heart, why wouldyou have to say that?
You know what I mean.
So you get that conflictedfeeling.
And then I remember, years ago,having a friend tell me a story
about how they went to thisplace.
Their computer had broken andthey didn't have money to buy a
new one and they went to thisplace.
That was like, oh, yada, yada,if you make under x, we'll
donate computers to you and helpyou out, and they go.
But then when they get therethe people are like video.
(09:58):
What a video.
Testimony of their poverty,poverty.
What is this craziness Like?
If charity is from the heart,does it have to be advertised?
You know what I mean.
So, and people read it wrong.
So if you're the person that'sdoing that, you don't have the
friend that's telling you.
(10:19):
We're the friend that's tellingyou.
That doesn't look so good.
People interpret that away thatyou might not want to interpret
it.
So maybe not, you know, maybejust let your duty be between
you, the person you help andwhatever higher power you
believe in.
But yeah, but it was superinteresting, though.
(10:39):
Um, I wonder how she feltdiscovering that her friends
really weren't her friendsbecause, like I said, there was
a lot of entitled white womantalk and a lot of white savior
complex talk going on, and it'sjust like I wonder.
Oh, and then the most fun partthat I liked about it was when
(11:02):
the woman who wrote the storyhad to, at one point, defend it,
and she was basically, you know, talking about the white savior
narrative and the woman'sentitlement, and then she was
basically like you know, mystory wasn't about this person
and they shouldn't want it to beabout them.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
She was basically like why would you claim this?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just feel like both of themcould have handled the
situations differently, whereas,um, so the the person who wrote
the story, just to keep fromthings from escalating from the
(11:40):
start, I think there's twothings that could have been done
that letter that kind ofsparked off the plagiarism type
conversation.
If it had been writteninitially, like the initial time
it was published, to maybe havethe feel of the letter but not
actual sentences from it, that'sone thing.
(12:04):
It eventually was published tohave the feel of it, but if that
was how it was from the start,that could have stopped some
things.
And then, two, I felt like ifshe had picked some other sort
of donation or charity that isselfless but also can be seen as
narcissistic, white privilegeor, you know, white savior,
(12:26):
complex, it would have kept theintent of her story without
having to directly be pointed atthis one person, and then
everyone in her circle wouldhave known it was this one
person, um, and that could havebeen, you know, their inside
chuckle or whatever, but butthen like it could have
protected her from all of thelitigation and all that stuff
(12:47):
that subsequently happened.
Um, and then the other personjust went too far, like just
from the start, like all thelike, the messaging, and she
kept hounding this woman.
Did you like?
Basically like are you writinga story about me?
Did you write it?
And like the lady wasn'tresponding, so she doesn't owe
you anything, and that whole.
(13:09):
That that's the privilege partof the privilege part, where
she's like pushing and pushingand it's just like if you have a
story to tell, tell your story.
Stop antagonizing this otherperson.
And basically to me it seemedlike a little bit of harassment,
even like after the fact, whereI guess this was years later
(13:29):
where the writer is doing likevirtual um, like book stuff,
panels and that sort of thing,and that lady has joined them,
um, and to me that's like it'slike threatening and stalkerish
and it's weird.
And so it's just like you kindof see even from the New York
(13:52):
Times article why people feelnot so great about this lady in
the first place.
But then, like I said, thereare other things that could have
been done on the other end tokeep the story from pointing
directly towards her.
But yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
She could have made it like a bone marrow donation,
for example.
Yeah, and fun fact, I heardthat the woman in question, dawn
Dorland, is the one who donatedthe kidney.
And fun fact, I heard that itwas her who actually approached
the times, so I don't think shewas expecting the article to be
scathing of her as well well,that's it.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
You don't know your own blind spots.
You think like that, where youthink you're so in the right,
and it's just like, oh, you're alittle off here too, and I, I
love that.
The person who wrote thatarticle put it all in it, like
like, these are theirpersonalities and this is you
know, and and from her own words, from her own words and her own
(14:52):
actions, um, it's just like,okay, you think you're in the
right, but I'm holding thismirror up to you again.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
I can't believe it.
I don't know.
And Sonia Larson was the onewho allegedly lifted the real
life act and wrote the story,and her story was called the
Kindness which is the title, isalso kind of funny too.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Just in retrospect of all the whole situation you're
right, it was.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Her responses were over the top.
Situation.
You're right, her responseswere over the top.
Definitely I wouldn't havewritten to the festivals and
schools that she attended.
If I was going to sue then Iwould have sued, you know what I
(15:44):
mean.
But I would have just left itat that.
I wouldn't have done all theother stuff.
But the friend was like equallywrong too, if you look at the
situation.
Like they said, the earlierdraft had.
She had written a letter to theperson who donated kidneys.
He had posted that on Facebookas well, dawn had yeah.
Yeah, dawn had, and, like yousaid, parts of that letter were
(16:05):
in the original draft.
In the original draft of thenovel the main character's name
was Dawn she later changed it toRose.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
It's just like stuff like that, like it's on paper,
like it's on.
You know, let's do those thingsfrom the start instead of yeah,
right.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
And to me, like I said, to me it showed a lot of
human nature, because peopledon't know their blind spots.
That woman didn't know hers.
Clearly she thought she was inthe right.
The friend thought she was inthe right, but I don't think any
of them were actual friends.
They were friends and I thinkSonia even said that she didn't
see this person were actualfriends.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
They were friends and I think Sonia even said that
she didn't see this person as afriend.
She never did.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
So that brought us to the question of how do we build
healthy friendships inpublishing?
What do publishing and writingfriendships look like?
So would you like to share astory about any author
friendships or author friendshipdrama that you can or should?
Speaker 3 (17:17):
we start with our story and how we met um.
We met in the drexel mfaprogram.
We were part of the secondcohort, um, but we were on
different tracks.
You were in the fiction programand I was in the screenwriting
program at the time, and so Iremember and it was during COVID
, so we didn't get to meet inperson until we were about just
about to graduate, during ourlast residency.
(17:37):
But I remember seeing yourpicture in like the like the
really message boards, but likethe boards, and when we had some
classes together and we wouldhave to post in the little
boards and read people's things,um, and I, like I was like, oh,
I want to be friends with thisperson.
And so when it came time forthe, the reading for my cohort
(17:59):
so we were screenwriters, sothen we had to get other people
to read, read for us, and Ireached out to you and you were
great and said, yes and um, wemet in person, that, that, what
the day before or whatever, butthen really got to know each
other that that night, um, andwe've been friends ever since
and, funny enough, I think, isthat the only time we've been in
(18:20):
person.
Yeah, yeah, it's weird, I feellike I've known you forever but
at weekends, but yeah only timewe've ever seen each other in
person.
So, yeah, and so it's just beenlike a really great budding
friendship and I'm learningstuff about fiction from you and
hopefully trying to show yousome things about screenwriting
(18:46):
as well show you some thingsabout screenwriting, um as well
and, like it's been a positivefriendship.
So this is what been one of mypositive um writer friendships.
You are got all these amazingthings happening, um, since you
graduated and I'm just so happyand proud and I, I like that I
get to read some things ahead oftime, which is cool, and you've
(19:08):
always been very supportive ofme.
So we have a good friendship,we do, we do.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
My version of it, though, is different.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
What do you mean?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
So my version of the weekend we met is I hadn't seen
you before.
Like we did have class together, um, but I'm really not good in
the like virtual and discordspace.
I'm not the girl that engageslike at all the time and so I
(19:40):
didn't like remember the facesand the names and stuff.
You know what I mean.
And then when we got togetherat the graduation and stuff, it
was a predominantly whiteenvironment.
So when you see the brown facesin a predominantly white
environment, you're like, oh hey, this is nice to see somebody
(20:02):
that looks like you in a sea ofpeople that don't.
Basically.
So I did remember like lookingat you, like hey, cool to know
her.
You know what I mean, but Idon't remember you from the
classes.
And then I my experience of itwas like I said, the first day
at lunch I went out to lunchwith these girls and kind of
(20:23):
felt a little clicky.
You know the environment atthat time.
Um, it was a lot of literarypeople in my cohort and I'm
fantasy, so I didn't exactly fitmaybe we should do a podcast
about literary versus genre aswell so, like I said, we went
out to lunch everybody.
(20:43):
When they dismissed for lunch,we all walked out.
We got lunch together, we sat,we ate, we ch and I thought it
went really well.
But then the next day, when itwas time for lunch, they
beelined out and left me.
I was pitiful, all by myself.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Well, damn.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
So I guess I'll go to my room.
So I got some food and I wentup to my room and then I think
it was later that that day, likearound the dinner time, wasn't
it when I met you, or was it thenext day at lunch.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I can't remember.
It might've been around dinnertime, is that what you were like
?
Waiting for your food, and Icame in with some other people,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
And then I just kind of latched on.
I was desperate forcompanionship during the lunch
break, so I attached myself tothe group.
And then we started talking andthen later on they had another
break between different panelsand classes and stuff that were
going on in the residency.
(23:07):
And then it was me, you and Moand y'all were trying to decide
what you wanted to do, becausethis wasn't a long break, it was
maybe 20 minutes or somethingor 30.
And you were trying to figureout what you wanted to do and
then I was like, hey, I got aroom in the hotel, just come on
up, we'll chat.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
And then you guys came up and that's when we
really started talking becauseyou and mo were part of my
reading and then yeah, we wentup to them, or chatting, yeah,
what's the beginning so my, mystrongest memory was of being
abandoned the next day.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Then be like well, like well.
So then, when I saw you, I waslike screw and hope they don't
shake me loose.
I've always been awkward.
That was my awkwardness again.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
And that's like.
It's funny, though, because,like I've always been that
person too that people just likeabandon and run away from.
And it's just like I'm a kindperson.
What is this?
It's the awkwardness, I guess.
I don't know, and I can bepretty quiet sometimes too.
We latched on to each other.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Here we are, yeah, and the lesson in that is that
writer friendships, they can befun, they can be exciting, but
they can also be challenging.
When you have people who youshare ambitions and goals with,
it can get weird sometimes.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
So let's talk about some of the weirdness sure, I
mean I have another writerfriend that I knew from the
first grad program that I didlike first MFA program, still a
very good friend.
Love her dearly, hey, ernie.
Um, but for me, um, so likeshe's, she published a book and
(24:46):
then published things, um, andI've never been like jealous of
people.
It's always been like I'm happyfor them doing what they set
out to do.
It's always more of a well,what, why haven't you done this
yet?
Like.
It's more of like beatingmyself up type thing, um, so I
remember, um, I had a friendthat published a book and it
(25:10):
took me more than a year torealize that I didn't buy it and
I was like, oh shit, like, whatkind of a friend am I?
Like?
Buy my friend's book?
Jesus, what is wrong with you?
Um, so I did so, I did buy thebook and then it took me a while
to read it.
Um, because I know there werelike some stories that were in
(25:33):
there for that I had read a partof or knew about or whatever,
and it was just hard because itwas just like, you know, this
person was able to do this, whyaren't you?
They are also working full time.
I have other friends who havechildren and that family and
that sort of thing, and so forme it's always been this battle
(25:55):
of beating myself up.
Sorry, I'm getting emotional,uh, and that's something I've
been working through and it'sfor like 15 years.
It's like working through thatand uh, and having you has been
really great because you likecontact me, we'll be talking, be
like, what are you working on?
And so it keeps me honest ofwhether I'm working on something
(26:17):
or not.
But like, um, especially morerecently, I'm pushing because
I'm like I'm seeing my friendsdo this and it's just like I
have these skills too.
You know there's nothingdifferent from us.
Also, like I, it's helping me,um, so like for me, like I've
(26:38):
never been so jealous of someoneto be like mean towards them or
like not talk to them orwhatever.
It's more beating myself up, um.
But there was those moments, um,especially early on, where I
couldn't read, um what people Iknew had published, because it's
just, it's just, you know,added more to my own self
saturation or whatever the wordis.
(27:00):
Uh, self, you know, doubt andall that kind of stuff.
But now it's different now, nowI'm not like that anymore.
I'm just like you know, I canread stuff like they haven't
been put, like for you, hasn'tbeen published yet or for, and
like give feedback, like be areader, um, for people, um, so,
yeah, so that there's that forme in terms of how I've felt
(27:25):
about friends who have written.
Um, I don't know, do you wantme to go on in terms of how
other writer friends havetreated me, or are we gonna?
You want to go ahead?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Okay, well, actually, before you go there, I want to
talk about what you just talkedabout, cause I've experienced
that too and that's very realand very human and very natural.
I had a friend, who I'm goingto give as much detail as I can,
without giving away who I'mtalking to, cause I don't want
them to watch it and be like notyet anyway.
(27:59):
But I had a friend who had agreat deal of success pretty
quick into their publishing pathand they reached some of my
dreams and lifelong goals inpublishing.
And this was at a time when Iwasn't even agented yet and we
started out together at the sametime and then they just hit.
So then it was like damn, youknow, it's like yay for her, so
(28:23):
happy for her, and really likefrom the bottom of my heart, was
happy for her, was proud forher, was showing people this is
my friend, you know what I meanand like I'd be at work pulling
it up and showing people, soexcited for her.
But at the same time it causedthat same self-doubt that you
were talking about for myselfand I was like, damn, do I suck?
Why is this not happening forme too?
(28:43):
Am I terrible?
Is people just too kind to tellme?
So I get that.
And those emotions arecompletely valid and we all go
through that.
So like it's beautiful to havefriends who share goals and
ambitions because you can talkto them about things other
people might not understand,like querying of submission and
revision, hell, and all of thestuff and the emotions that go
(29:08):
into it, and even like askprofessional advice.
But it's also hard because whenyou have friends with the same
goals and ambitions, you knoweverybody doesn't make it at the
same time, so then you have todeal with when they're up and
you're down or vice versa, andthen that can make it like messy
and complicated.
The story we just saw was messy, or talked about was messy and
(29:31):
complicated, so it can getchallenging.
Now talk about what people havedone to you yeah so.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
So I'm not in a position.
So I've been attempting towrite and whatever for quite a
while, but I'm, like I said,beating myself up and not really
putting things out there.
I'm not in a place where I canhelp people do anything.
I can help people like connectpeople to certain people.
(30:02):
I might be now in a sense, but Ifeel like writer friends that
I've had have viewed me as andeven should I even call them
friends someone who can't helpthem, um, get published or get
to help them reach their goal ona particular way, to connect
(30:24):
them to people in the industryin that sort of way.
So therefore, it was just kindof I felt like their distance
was put there because I'm notuseful to them, and so I see
that, okay, then these peoplearen't actually my friends.
(30:46):
And if and when I do get tothose no, certain people and
maybe I do at this point I feellike those aren't folks that I
would go out of my way to helpor connect um, because you
weren't my friends, you weren'there just for me as a human
(31:06):
being, um.
So therefore, why go out of myway for that?
I don't know if that's a goodway to think, but way for that.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
I don't know if that's a good way to think, but
human, it's real.
Why would you bend overbackwards for people?
Speaker 3 (31:25):
who wouldn't bend a pinky to?
Assist you not even asking mehow I am, or like it's like okay
, well, you don't really careabout me so yeah, that's the
crazy thing about.
Oh, go ahead, I'm sorry I justI think that's an importance for
anybody who's any in any sortof industry or whatever.
Where you are can be next togatekeepers, in a sense.
(31:48):
Um, to beware of that.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
You know, why are people getting close to you or
in your life, whatever and theycan also go other ways too,
because there are scenarioswhere people could warm up to
somebody who hasn't made it yet,because they want to get closer
to someone who has.
You know what I mean.
So there's like layers to howpeople can be backstabby and
(32:18):
messy and what they think ispower.
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, exactly how they can exploit to try to get
close to it.
We're not realizing sometimes,people in areas where you think
there is no power, thereactually is great power.
You're just not seeing Becausenot everybody is flashy like
that.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
You got to protect yourself and protect the people
around you.
Exactly, Exactly, Exactly,Exactly.
I felt that too Earlier in myjourney.
I remember being at the LiteraryAwards one time and I was
always in this weird positionwhere I would interview authors.
So I was always like side frompublishing but hadn't reached my
(33:04):
publishing goals yet.
So I would be networking withpeople who had, like, reached
all kinds of heights but I'mstill in the query trenches, I'm
still just trying to make it.
And in a lot of ways it wasstrategy because it was
networking.
It was trying to meet peopleand trying to get in the room
where you if this is your dreamyou want to be in the room where
(33:27):
it's happening, kind of thing.
But the downside about that iswhen you're in the room and you
haven't really reached thosegoals yet, then a lot of times
you get that, that feeling whereyou were talking about where
people are like look past youand not necessarily at you yeah
or like one time I had a writer,um, who was way more
accomplished than me, who, who Ithought we were friends with.
(33:48):
Like I felt like kind of tryingto put me down intentionally,
like she's introducing me tosomeone and she's like, oh,
she's got like thousands oflittle books on Amazon, which is
not true at all.
Like I had one at the time,really bad book that I did very
early in my writing career.
That book that I did very earlyin my writing career.
(34:09):
You know my skills have grownway from that point more than a
decade ago, but it was only one.
It wasn't like a million littlebooks, you know what I mean.
So to me it felt like that wasvery much of a condescending,
meant to put me down or to putme in a certain category to this
other person who was also moreestablished.
And so I had lots of thoselittle moments where you felt
like you're there but you don'tnecessarily belong.
(34:30):
And then I've also had the flipside, like once you start
selling books or getting agency,you're, you're moving into a
different area than it's like.
Sometimes some of the peoplewho treated you like that start
to now be nicer.
And then it's like but yeah,you're full of it because you
didn't really actually like me,because I remember how you
treated me before I sold thebook.
(34:51):
You know what I mean.
So it's a lot of performativefriendships.
You know a lot of associatetype relationships where people,
like, will take pictures withyou and call you bestie or
sister or cousin or whatever,and then you see them like what?
Once or twice a year at anauthor event.
(35:12):
You know what I mean, yeah, andthen they're the ones who are
like actual legitimate friends,who will call you and check on
you, who will be like I haven'theard from you in a while, are
you good, or I'm having thisthing, can you come?
You know what I mean, so mean,so so it.
It's a vast variety ofawkwardness and people never
(35:35):
know where, and also anybodylistening to this.
Please don't assume I'm talkingabout you, because likely I'm
not.
So please don't.
You know how people like tolike think you're self-tweeting
and you're not.
No, not.
So don't be like.
You know getting your feelingsabout stuff that may have
nothing to do with you at all.
I could be talking aboutsomebody totally different, so
don't even stress yourself outexactly.
(35:58):
Don't stress yourself out, don'tbe like the bad author friend.
I go plotting my downfall andit might even probably most
likely you are mentioning in myinterview communication exactly.
So yeah, it's complicated.
(36:19):
And, going back briefly to thestory we just talked about,
there's also a thin line betweenlike inspiration and what they
did wrong in that story, becausesometimes friendships can
inspire you.
So sometimes when people arereading into things, it might be
(36:42):
a grain of truth, but usuallyit's not.
You know, most people aren'tthe kidney stealing friend.
Most people don't go intofriendships.
Well, most legitimate peopledon't go into friendships with
the.
What can I get from this?
They go into this with the.
I want to know you, I want tobe cool with you.
Space and that story made mecautious because I'm in some
(37:05):
debut groups and I told you Ihost like the author meetups
like once a month and I reallywant to do one specific to
authors of color too, becausesometimes we have different
issues that have to be addressed.
But like it makes you scaredbecause, like I don't do the
discord a lot, a lot of peopledo.
A lot of people stay in thosedebut discords texting all day,
(37:27):
but I'm not trying to put a tonof shit in writing you shouldn't
I mean, I know we're writers.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
But you know there are thin signs.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
You have to think of legal aspects right, especially
like some of them have, like theventing and ranting segments,
and people will get in there andvent and rant and hopefully
it's a safe space, but some ofthose groups can have like up to
400 people in them, so there'sso you should consider it public
when the group's that large.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
I mean and also you have to think about, well, going
back to the story where we justtalked about, because there was
court proceedings, all thatstuff, all of the text messages
and the group chat and stuff gotum, what discovery was part of
discovery.
So you know what you think itall became public yeah, it all
(38:11):
became public.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
So in the moment what you think are private spaces,
because later on become public,because something happens and is
being litigated and there's theright to put that stuff out
there so and that's why I do themonthly meetups, because I'm a
more, I'm more of a face-to-facegal, like to me, like even with
us, like right now, like how wesaid, we've only met in person
(38:34):
the one you know, weekend orwhatever.
But when you face to face, youfeel more of a connection, you
feel like you know the person.
It's like you're actuallyhanging out with the person, and
I prefer that than theconstantly text with strangers,
because the way my mind works, Iwon't commit the faces to the
names, and so to me it wouldn'thave the same depth it might to
(38:56):
you, because I might respond toyou in the thing and then you're
thinking that we formed thisrelationship.
But in my head, if you're one of400 names on a screen, I'm not
remembering all them, my memoryis not that great, but if I see
you in a Zoom then I can be likeoh, there she is, you know what
I mean.
That resonates with me andconnects with me more.
But it also, like I said, itmade me more cautious in how I
communicate In a Zoom or aprivate chat space.
(39:20):
I'll be more candid about thepros, the cons, the things I'm
going through that you want toknow as an artist like is this
person reputable?
Is that person, what's yourexperience?
I'll be completely transparentin a private setting, but
there's certain things Icouldn't or wouldn't say
publicly right and you shouldn'tright well.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Also, I have to tell you, my fears in this started in
high school.
So AOL, instant messenger aimfor those of you who are old
like I um, I used to, you know,talk to that, you know to my
friends on that a lot, andbecause I thought they were my
(39:59):
friends, I would just say what Iwanted to say and things.
And I later found that a personwas printing them out, um, and
letting our other friends readthem, um, and so there were
things that I told this personthat I wouldn't have told or
said to the other people, um,and it it was done to embarrass
(40:23):
me and it created a lot of shamefor me, um, so just, I don't
know why I'm telling this.
I just reminded me of somethingthat happened, but it was like
very traumatic at the time andum has caused, uh, issues for me
in terms of, like, trustingpeople and writing things down
(40:45):
and that sort of thing.
So just be careful.
I guess is the main theme of itall in terms of who you're
friends with, who you thinkyou're friends with, and
understand there are levels offriendship.
So someone might be your bestfriend but that doesn't
(41:06):
necessarily mean you are theirbest friend.
Very true.
So things like that.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
And I also think it's important too, because there's
levels in publishing too.
As we go through them, becausewe all go through them at
different timelines, Don'tabandon anybody because you
wouldn't have wanted to beabandoned in that space, and
because shit changes, you knowwhat.
I mean, you never know who thatperson might end up being
(41:32):
exactly that person might be thenext Tyler Perry or somebody,
and you burn that bridge for noreason Tyler Perry told a story
about.
I wish I could remember thestory, but it was about the
first time he met Oprah and hewas like working at a hotel or
something, and so he wasn'tTyler.
He wasn't anywhere near Tylerbut thankfully that wasn't a
(41:57):
horrible memory in his mindBecause later on, when Owen was
in trouble, tyler was one of thepeople that came along and
helped save the network you knowwith his writing skills and
stuff.
So I forget the story, though Iwish I could repeat it.
But just said my memory is notthat grand.
But yeah, on the opposite sideof the story, I told earlier
(42:28):
where I was like when my friendwas up and then I was still down
.
How that made self-doubt waswhen I had something happen that
I was excited aboutprofessionally and I shared it
with friends and one friend'slike and the other friend's just
like clearly pissed, visiblypissed, like you could see it
all over her face, and it wasawkward because it put me in a
(42:52):
position of questioning thefriendship because, like I said,
I was in spaces where I wasdown and my friend was up before
and I was legitimately happyfor her.
So even if I had someself-doubt emerge from her joy
where I was like, well damn, ithappened to me, am I not good
enough?
It never made me mad at hersuccess I was legitimately happy
(43:13):
for and rooting for.
So to see legitimate anger onthe face in my good news just
made me be like wow, is thisperson actually my friend?
Like um, were we justassociates in this weird
industry?
You know what I mean?
It just changed my view of thatperson drastically.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
That sucks, yeah, but I feel like in any industry
really, it's just par for thecourse With any success that
anybody has, or people who willbe happy for you and other
people who aren't, and you justhave to focus on being happy
(44:01):
with yourself and then you knowif you've got the people around
you who are happy for you.
That's amazing.
And who cares about the haters?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
exactly.
You have to be happy for your,your friends, without feeling
like it dims you in any way,because it doesn't, because
everybody's on separate journeysand separate times and you know
you'll find your writingsoulmates you, you will?
Speaker 3 (44:29):
yes, um, I have to.
It's been a long process for me, like just trying to find my
group of people trying to findmy crew and like I feel like I
do, um, have folks now and itmakes a difference.
It makes a huge difference likeI don't have as much of that
self-doubt anymore.
Um, you know, I have writerfriends to talk about things
(44:49):
with and to to lift me up.
So try and find your circle anddon't worry about the people,
don't worry about the haters.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
You'll find the people who write for you I'm the
people who have theperformative friendships where
it's like less ride or die andmore comment and tag.
Some of the writer clicks can bekind of high school, but you
(45:18):
know, give that some grace too,because you got to keep in mind
that a lot of times I find thatthat happens with people who are
on a different level than you,or at least in the scenarios
where I ran into that, a lot oftimes it was the people who were
more established in theirwriting career than I was at the
time.
And being that they were on amore established level, maybe
they had people approaching themunder the guise of friendship
who were really trying to get aleg up or get ahead or get this
(45:39):
or get that from them.
So maybe it wasn't so much ofan intentionally trying to feel
unwelcome.
Maybe it was more of a myguards up a little bit you know
what I mean Because I don't wantto be exploited or mistreated
and then, as I mentionedpreviously, I'm socially awkward
, so maybe they didn't evenrealize I was feeling any of
this you know, you know, mostwriters are introverts, most of
(46:04):
us are awkward people and I amADD as hell.
I uh talk a lot.
I interrupt because the damnadd just is excited and jumping
into conversations.
So I'm not for everybody, andthat's okay.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
You're not gonna like everybody, that's okay yeah,
you're not gonna like everybodyand everybody's not gonna like
you, and that's okay.
I'm like the opposite, I'm morequiet and I'm a listener, so
like we have the compliments andnow that I understand you, and
then it's just kind of like ohokay, well, she's got an idea,
so let her say it.
(46:39):
It's not, I don't have aproblem with you like jumping in
because I understand where it'scoming from.
Speaker 2 (46:46):
It's.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
I don't have a problem with you like jumping in
because I understand where it'scoming from.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
That's not you're not trying to diminish me.
You got to get it out, that'sfine.
Yeah, my memory is shitty.
So sometimes if I don't jump inand say it, if I wait, I'll
forget it.
You'll be like what were yousaying?
I'll be like, damn, I don'tknow.
And then, like I said, thereare some people who are the
social climbers that only talkto you once you're agented or
(47:09):
once you start making steps inthe right direction, and
sometimes you got to be like jaymarie and just be like if you
weren't there for me, then Idon't know about now.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
set healthy boundaries, whatever works for
you yeah, trust your gut, as Isay you, I feel like you'll know
the types of people, especiallyif you're around people for a
while.
You know why they're around,you'll know, um, and then you
can figure out what you want todo with that, so let's give
advice for people on trying tofind right friendships um.
(47:43):
See, here's where I'mconflicted, because all of my
writer friends I found in mfaprograms and those cost money
yes, that's a lot of money butyeah, if you're, if you've got
local writing groups, try those.
Um, those haven't always workedfor me, um, but they have.
(48:07):
Do they still have like onlineones?
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I know you have a writer friends that you, a
friend that you met for with anonline group it was a critique
group, an online critique groupum, I wish I could remember the
name of it, but I don't.
But yeah, we met probably likemaybe 2014, 2015, something like
that, and volunteer and stuff.
(48:33):
Look for writing festivals orliterary awards or different
events in your area andvolunteer there.
And the people we meet who arealso volunteering wouldn't be
volunteering there if theyweren't interested in writing
and publishing.
So it's a great place to makefriends with people with similar
interests check your librariestoo.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
Libraries always have different book things that's
true.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Sometimes they have like book clubs volunteers for
yeah and sometimes they havebook clubs and stuff like that.
Um, I know at my librarysometimes, like during NaNoWriMo
, we'll have different programs.
That might be a good way tomeet local writers.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
During what.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
NaNoWriMo.
Speaker 3 (49:13):
What's that?
Speaker 2 (49:14):
National Writing Month, national Book Writing
Month.
I probably say it's terriblebecause I've never participated
in NaNo.
I've failed it many times, likeat least two or three.
I've never successfullycompleted, I should say.
But it's like this challenge inNovember where people try to
write a book and I'm off.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
Oh, interesting, that's a lot yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
NaNoWriMo, it's called so a lot of library.
Well, my library has eventsaround that, so I'm assuming
many others.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
may Many others do as well.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Join critique groups online Offer swap pages.
Join critique groups onlineoffer swap pages.
Join pitch contests and stuff.
If you make it into the contestthen you know the mentors and
the other mentees might bebudding friendships.
Sometimes there's a lot of likewriting aspiring writer,
facebook friends groups andstuff like that where you can
(50:05):
meet people, slide intosomebody's, zoom in their DM
excuse me, strike up aconversation.
I wouldn't start with thebiggest names and yeah, because
they probably get a lot of DMslides and a lot of people
approaching them and sometimespeople have agendas so they will
(50:27):
probably be less receptive.
So start with people on yourlevel.
If you're querying, look forquerying writers.
If you're aspiring, look foraspiring writers.
And if you guys are all workingtoward the same goal,
eventually one of you will makeit, eventually two of you will
make it.
You know what I mean.
And then you know you'll haveyour circle of people in the
(50:49):
professional realm of it too.
And when you find the good ones, show up for them publicly and
privately.
Don't ditch them because you'releveled up.
Don't post about how good afriend you are without actually
being the friend yeah be thefriend in real life, like if you
can't be there physically, youguys can zoom and chat yeah, I
(51:12):
do that with all my friends,because I'm nowhere near any of
them now, what are red flags youthink they could look for with
these new friendships?
Speaker 3 (51:23):
oh, that's a good question.
Um, I mean, let's see red flagpeople trying to figure out if
and who you know anyone.
Because normally, like you know, I feel like in my
conversations with my writerfriends, those things come about
(51:48):
in a sense because you get to aplace where you trust and like
we could talk about certainthings, but someone's just like
outright trying to figure thatout from the beginning.
That's small psych agenda to me.
Um, if they're someone's askingyou for a lot of your help and
reading their work, whatever,and they're not giving that same
thing in return, um, yeah, andjust simply.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
I mean, sometimes people just disappear yeah, they
vanish when your good news ismore than their good news at the
time yeah or they only reachout when they need something.
Speaker 3 (52:23):
That goes hand in hand with what you were saying
earlier like I've had peoplereaching out to see what I'm
doing, if anything has happened.
And then when I'm like, oh, I'mworking on this, but like
nothing's been produced orwhatever, then they go, and what
are some green flags that theyshould look for in?
Speaker 2 (52:42):
good friends, good writer friends.
Speaker 3 (52:44):
I mean just a good friend, um, just someone who is
interested in you as a person?
Um, to me that's a huge greenflag.
And then the, the?
Um commonality of writing as aninterest and reading as an
interest is a bonus.
(53:05):
All my writer friends.
I feel like, well, maybe Ican't say that I was going to
say I feel like we were friendsfirst, but then with you and I I
don't know that I can actuallysay that because we met because
of the writing.
I don't know, it was weird withyou.
I feel like I met, I feel likeI've always known you, like we
(53:27):
were friends in a past life orsomething.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
Yeah, true, true, true.
I feel like good green flagsare good things to look out for
as they celebrate your wins andthey're genuinely happy for you.
They they make space for yourlows.
And they're not just there forthe launches and the fun times,
(53:49):
but when you're going throughcrap, you can call them in wine
or vent and they ask you youknow what you're working on, how
your writing's feeling.
And they're not just concernedabout what's selling, because
when you're a writer, writing ispart of who you are, so it's
not just about what's selling.
And what's weird is like if youplay basketball, nobody's like
(54:12):
when are you going to the NBA?
You know what I mean.
If you have a hobby of swimming, nobody's like well, when are
you going to be the next MichaelPhelps?
But when you're writing,everybody's like well, when are
you going to sell this?
And it can't just be becauseit's something that's a passion
that you love, that's a part ofwho you are.
It always has to be a monetarything attached to it and while
(54:33):
it's cool when you get themonetary, when the monetary is
not coming, it doesn't feel coolbecause it feels almost like
almost like a value judgment onyour work and you, which is very
hurtful, because I've been onthe receiving end of that many,
many times.
Speaker 3 (54:54):
Two things I want to say before I forget them.
Going back to the green flagsand the friendships and stuff,
you will have more acquaintancesthan anything.
So I'm not saying, you know,don't be friendly or whatever
with the acquaintances who onlyshow up to the launch parties
(55:15):
and that sort of thing, becausethat's really for most of the
people you're going to knowanyway.
So I'm not saying and we're notsaying, oh, those are bad
people, you know, that's justhow most of it is going to go.
They're there.
They showed up for your success,so that's a good thing as well.
Speaker 2 (55:34):
And I already forgot the other thing I was like and
the tag and post friends are notbad either, like the people,
like we were saying, who onlyshow up at events once a year or
who post a picture with you ortag you.
That's not a bad thing eitherbecause guess what?
They're promoting you, they'resharing you when they post you
with their audience, which isstill a good thing.
So it's not saying that they abad friend.
It's just saying that you can'talways believe everything you
see on social media.
(55:54):
The social media will havesomebody believing that this
person is your ride or die, yourbeginning and your end.
And really they're a person yousee maybe two or three times a
year.
So don't judge your life andyourself by other people's
experiences, because some of thebonds that you're seeing on
their timeline aren't evenactual bonds of depth.
So associates are good.
Especially of the bonds thatyou're seeing on their timeline
(56:15):
aren't even actual bonds of debt.
So associates are good,especially in the business.
It's mutual promotion and it'smutually beneficial.
And you know they still knowthe business so you might be
able to still reach out and aska question about it.
So we're definitely notknocking that, but it can get
complicated.
I've found a lot of friends dothe author interviews and that
gets complicated.
I'm a freelance writer.
I write and pitch twopublications.
I am not a staff writer forsaid publications, so not
(56:39):
everything I write and pitchgets picked up.
Sometimes they won't want it,sometimes they won't like it.
Sometimes, like real life canintervene, like even with Donald
Clayton she's new york timesbestseller done big things.
When I interviewed with herfirst time I interviewed her
january 6th happened when theystormed the capitol and stuff so
(57:01):
I pitched the article.
I heard back from his magazinethey're like we love it, we're
gonna run it.
January 6th happens they hit meback.
They're like sorry, right nowthe news cycle is of nothing but
people storming the Capitol.
So, then it wasn't going tohappen.
So then I'm thinking, oh great,she's going to think I'm a liar
.
I told her they were going torun it.
So I'm like you know, and thenI had just got signed on to work
(57:22):
for a company at the time.
So you know me, I anxietyspiraling, thinking she's
probably on to the nextinterview.
But in my head this is where myanxiety spiral goes.
So then I'm like circling back,circling back, circling back,
trying to see like, hey, uh,have we moved on in the news
(57:44):
cycle?
Not yet.
Can we come back to my?
And then, finally, you know,and then, um it, the tiny pretty
things, um, that she co-wrotehit went on Netflix and it was
like in the top 10.
So then I circle back again andthen this time I'm like top 10
in Netflix, in the US watchshows.
And then they put it out.
(58:05):
But, like, sometimes stuff likethat happens, sometimes they're
stuttered, sometimes they'llpublish it, sometimes they won't
.
Lately, with all the AI stuffout there, to be honest with you
, sometimes pitching is hardbecause you're not only
competing with real writers butyou're competing with articles
for the same bandwidth and thesame publications, and so, like
(58:25):
you know, so, while it's greatfor meeting people.
Sometimes it can make thingschallenging because I can meet
people, we can have greatconversations.
I'm like, wow, I'd love to betheir friend.
And then like either thearticle won't come out and
they're looking at me like Iwasted their time, or it might,
but it might come out way later,because they didn't initially,
wasn't interested.
And then I just like tried away to reframe it, like instead
(58:47):
of talking about craft, nowwe're talking about book banning
, and I just honed in on adifferent part, pitched it again
.
I don't know, it gets weird, itgets complicated, but I guess
what I'm trying to say is givepeople grace, because you don't
know what's going on behind thescenes, and we've all felt this
(59:11):
thing of fake friends and thesilence.
Speaker 3 (59:13):
That can be deafening .
Yeah, it can be deafening.
Yeah, it can be.
Yeah, um, oh, I just remembered.
The other thing I wanted to saywas, um, when you're talking
about writing and monetizing it,I myself had to reframe that
thought and go back to thinkingas writing as a fun thing that I
do, and if one day that happensin terms of monetization great
(59:45):
it's not I'm still doingsomething that I feel is fun for
me, so that can help smooththings over.
We can get rid of some of thatanxiety in terms of being a
writer.
Don't forget why you startedwriting in the first place.
Speaker 2 (59:59):
Right Cause, it's therapy, it's good mental health
Sometimes, where, sometimesit's how we process emotion and
pain and there's no monetaryvalue that can be placed on.
That, you know.
But if you want to pay us forit, please do.
A period of value that can beplaced on that, you know, but if
you want to pay us for it,please do so.
If you're taylor swift, beinginspired by your exes to write
great songs, or if you're thekidney lady inspired by your
(01:00:23):
friend's donation, um, you know,inspiration is okay.
Just don't make, just don't bea shitty friend who's like.
Only intent in the friendshipis to mind the person for
information.
And if you're inspired, um,don't go verbatim, making it
(01:00:46):
obvious that it's that person.
You can take two or threeelements from each person, like
from three different people, toform a character and still tell
the same story in a way thatwon't get you in legal trouble.
It might have, um, this onecharacter's ambition, this one
person's ambition, this otherperson's donation, but you
(01:01:07):
change it to bone marrow insteadof a kidney and it could have
this third person's temper, andyou can swirl all that up into a
mix to make a unique individualthat is not a carbon copy of
someone that'll get you introuble.
Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
You need to write it.
Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Yeah, watch your boundaries, guard your circle,
be careful who you open up to,be careful what you put in
writing and have fun.
Yeah, have fun, have fun.
Make friends and that's it fortoday's episode.
If this resonated with you,drop us a dm, slide into our dms
(01:01:45):
and tell us how you liked itand share this with your writing
friends or your writingassociate.
We will tell.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4 (01:02:05):
That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD
Mayer.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
jdmayercom.
That's jdmayercom.
(01:02:26):
While you're there, join JD'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
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