The supernatural world of vampires has captivated audiences for generations, but how these stories represent Black characters reveals much about our evolving cultural consciousness. In this thought-provoking episode, we dissect three influential vampire shows through a craft and representation lens, tracking a remarkable evolution from tokenism to authentic storytelling.
Starting with The Vampire Diaries' Bonnie Bennett, we examine how this powerful witch was relegated to a perpetual supporting role—repeatedly dying to save her white friends while being denied the romantic storylines and character development afforded to others. Despite Kat Graham's compelling performance, Bonnie's character exemplified the "magical Black friend" trope, complete with European-based magic systems that ignored potential connections to African or African-American traditions.
True Blood's Tara Thornton marked progress with her direct confrontation of racial issues (memorably asking a vampire if he'd owned slaves) and fuller backstory. Yet the show still trapped her in the "angry Black woman" stereotype and ultimately disrespected her character with an unceremonious off-screen death—a stark contrast to how white characters' storylines concluded.
The conversation peaks with AMC's Interview with the Vampire, which reimagines Louis as a Black man in early 20th century New Orleans. This adaptation demonstrates how powerful storytelling can be when a character's racial identity informs rather than incidental to their journey. Louis emerges as a fully-realized protagonist whose experiences as a Black man directly shape his vampire transformation.
For writers crafting characters outside their cultural experience, these examples offer valuable lessons in authenticity, research, and the importance of sensitivity readers. We discuss how representation isn't just about inclusion but about creating characters with cultural specificity and genuine depth.
Subscribe to Craft Chat Chronicles for more insightful conversations about writing craft, representation in fiction, and the evolving landscape of storytelling. Visit jdmayal.com for show notes, writing resources, and upcoming workshop information.
🎙️ Craft Chat Chronicles with J.D. Myall
Candid conversations on writing, publishing, and creative life — featuring bestselling authors, MFA students, and writers at every stage of the journey.
About J.D. Myall
J.D. Myall is the co-chair of Drexel University’s MFA Alumni Association and a publishing and library professional. She is the creator and host of Craft Chat Chronicles, where she interviews authors, agents, and industry insiders about the art and business of writing.
Her work has appeared in Ms. Magazine, Writer’s Digest, and HuffPost. Her debut novel, Heart’s Gambit, releases with Wednesday Books/Macmillan in February 2026.
When she’s not conjuring magic, murder, and mayhem on the page, J.D. mentors emerging writers through workshops and alumni programs, fostering community among aspiring and published authors alike.
💜 Connect with J.D. Myall
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
writing journey.
(00:26):
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmayalcom.
That's jdmayalcom.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
In this episode of Craft Chat Chronicles, we are
going on a writer's journey withgood friends and good writers.
Enjoy, hey guys, welcome.
Today I'm going to be going ona lovely journey with my dear,
sweet, intelligent, kind,wonderful, charming friend, jay
Marie.
Before we get started withtoday's topic, I just wanted to
(01:04):
check in with you and see what'snew.
So what have you been workingon this week?
What's been going on with youthis week, jay?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Yeah, so I'm continuing to work on the story
that you and I have been talkingabout.
So it's something a script thatI had written a few years ago
that I'm reworking, and then anextra special detail about that
I won't share now, but maybelater about something else I'm
doing with it, but I'm workingon this story and I've been
(01:32):
using this craft book calledStory Genius, which is a book
that we used in our MFA program,and it's really helping me
clarify the third rail typethings, the internal struggles
that are going on with myprotagonist and to connect to
the bigger story.
(01:53):
And I had two really fruitfulwriting sessions this week which
helped me connect some of thehistorical social things in the
US that are part of the biggerstory to her internal struggles
(02:13):
and it made me very happy andit's going to make a lot of the
other things that happen moreexciting and clear and what I
really wanted from it to beginwith.
So it's been a very um, goodwriting week, not stressful,
like fun it was.
It felt fun Like it should be.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I've had a pretty good week.
Um, writing wise, I've beendoing more revision than
anything.
Um, writing wise, I've beendoing more revision than
anything and finally started thefirst chapter of book two in
the Heart Scam Bit series.
(02:58):
I was struggling to tear myselfaway from something else I was
working on because I was lovingit, but now I'm starting to get
into the groove and getting intothe love with book two in the
Heart Scam Bit series and.
But I also wanted to clearsomething up.
I spoke in a couple episodesabout how I did this Black
History Month display and Idisplayed these different books
by Black authors and things likethat, and then I had the covers
of some of them laminated andhung up as well and the hate you
(03:23):
gave was taken off of thedisplay and the cover picture
was taken down.
And this was like around thetime we're at the job we were
being talked to about what's theprocess if someone challenges a
book and how, like differentclaim changes in the social and
political climate might affectus.
Job wise, like with theDepartment of Education and
libraries, or libraries in a lotof places are through the
(03:45):
Department of Education andstuff like that.
So with all this stuff in mindand them talking about how
people you know try to narrowpolitically and in courts.
You know the scope of what goeson our shelves and how we're
pushing back against thatconstantly.
When I saw that, I thought thatit was intentional because that
(04:08):
book deals with policebrutality.
So then I was feeling like Iwas censored and I was all in my
feels for a couple of days.
Actually I didn't say anything,of course, but I was like
silently stewing in my feelsbecause I was like, because it
was that particular book, andthen it was replaced by a
fantasy book and the picture wasdown.
And if the picture had alonebeen down, I would have thought,
(04:29):
well, maybe the picture fell.
But when the picture was downand the book was gone and then
it was replaced by a fantasy, Iwas like what the hell?
And I was very surprisedbecause, like I said, like I
told you before, most people Iwork with are allies and
supporters of free speech andstuff like that and the right to
read.
So I was very surprised by it.
And then I discovered it wasn'twhat I thought at all, because
(04:50):
employees come in one door, theback door and the public comes
in the front and basicallysomeone had done a display where
they were talking about, like,novels that the staff love and
staff picks, and they took thatone off of my black history
month and put it on that displayby the front door and basically
made it my pick, because if itcame off my display so they knew
(05:11):
it was a book I was, you know,fond of, yeah, so then it was
like this whole time I'msilently stewing and then by the
front door, which is the doorthat staff doesn't use, which is
the first thing everyone wouldsee when they came in, they had
it it there.
So then I felt better andrelieved by that because you
know, I wasn't being censored.
I had been stewing for nothingWith all the verbiage that had
(05:33):
been going on at work and themtrying to prepare us for
whatever negativities may come.
That was what, the first thingthat came in my head.
So I'm happy to report that inthis case that wasn't the case.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Well, that's good, I mean, that's really great.
But it's understandable why youmight think that way, because
basically, it's not that theyjust even like, took it down and
put it somewhere else.
It got replaced where, like Iwould think, if they were just
going to take it, they were justgoing to take it and put it
wherever they're going to put it, and maybe that would be
missing from the display.
And then you might be like, oh,what happened to something?
And the fact that no one said,oh, we're doing this, so it's
(06:11):
going to be up here.
So I mean it's understandable,but it's good that you're able
to, you know, clear it up andall is well.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
All is definitely well.
So today we're going to betalking about, like Southern
Gothic horrors and vampires, andspecifically Black vampires as
well.
I say as well because we cantalk about all the vampires and
that stuff too.
But the shows that we chose notthe Vampire Diaries, they don't
(06:38):
really have any strong Blackvampire representation, but they
do have Bonnie Vembit, bonnieVembit, bonnie Bennett, who was
the black witch on that show,and then we also chose true
blood and the remake ofinterview with a vampire to be
our um topics of the day.
We're going to be talking aboutsouthern gothic and vampires
and we're going to be exploringit from a writing and craft
(07:04):
perspective, when time evolvesand consciousness evolves and
I'm not going to pretend like Ididn't love all of these shows
at the time that they were out,yeah, but when you look back on
things with a modern lens,sometimes it changes your
perspective on things.
So that's what we're trying todo today.
(07:26):
So let me start with theVampire Diaries and first of all
shout out to Kat Graham, whokilled it as Bonnie Bennett, and
she was one of the mostredeeming things about that
character, because the writingthey could have done way better
by Bob.
But, yeah, Kat Graham wasfabulous as an actress.
(07:51):
The problem I had with lookingback on the show now with a
modern perspective and, mind you, like I said, when it came out,
I loved it.
I didn't see this stuff.
But looking back now, all theseyears later, more mature
perspective on the things, theproblem I see with the way they
wrote the character was theymade her the Black best friend
trope.
She didn't have a lot of,especially in the earlier season
(08:15):
.
I think it was like season sixwhen they started giving her a
little more agency and morestory.
But she didn't really have likebackstory and stuff and it was
like her whole life was to helpmagically and die repeatedly for
her white castmates you knowwhat I mean.
And these vampires who, if youwatch the show, predominantly
(08:36):
only came to her when theyreally like needed something.
It was always can you do this?
Can you do this?
One time Damon is like will yourisk everything for Elena,
would you even die for her?
Or something like that I'mparaphrasing.
It was like he said yes,exactly, and at first it's like
okay, save the cat, you know,we're sacrificing for your other
castmates to prove, to make youa likable character.
(08:57):
But then it just went on and onso much to where it was like is
she suicidal?
Does she have a death wish?
They're not even real friendsto ask her to die repeatedly for
it.
I mean, like like we're friends, I wouldn't come to you and say
repeatedly, put your life onthe line, you know what I'm
saying and I wouldn't offer tobe Exactly.
(09:19):
And the worst of it.
There was a couple of worst ofit, but like when she was in the
prison, world and life justwent on, she wasn't gone.
And then when they treated herlike she wasn't as desirable or
attractive as the other castmembers which is crazy, because
Cady Graham is drop deadgorgeous, gorgeous, yeah, but
(09:39):
like they didn't give her a loveinterest forever.
The first guy that she reallyshowed interest in was basically
like you're desperate, it's anactual conversation.
He was basically a bad, avillain, and he was like well,
you're so desperate, you madethis easy.
And then when they had her withJeremy Elena's brother, that
(10:00):
was a significant relationship.
It felt like at first I thoughtthey were kind of mismatched
but I warmed to it.
Then he cheated on her with hisdead ex-girlfriend after she
had died to save him.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Who died to save him, bonnie did.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Bonnie again sacrificed her life, so that
Jeremy could live right.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Oh boy.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
And he cheats on her.
She's the only character in thewhole series that got cheated
on, the whole only maincharacter in a show all about
romance and vampires.
They never gave her asignificant romance.
And then when she finally getsEnzo, who's supposed to be like
the love of her life guy, theykill him too, because they
killed off a lot of her romance,her love interest too.
(10:43):
But they kill him too becausethey killed off a lot of her
romance, their love interest too.
But they kill him too.
But then he was her.
She was his third pick.
He liked caroline.
Before that he had a thing fordamon's mom, like she was the
third pick and, um, even he madea comment one time to her early
on before they got together,where he was like you were
acting like the kind of personwho's never been fought for.
(11:03):
And then it was like, wow,screw you.
Writers like y'all just wowwe're trying to brainwash us
into thinking that this girl islike unattractive and
undesirable.
And have you seen her?
Like, you know what I mean.
And then they would have theseevents and things where the
other girls got to be all glamand in these, like you know,
(11:27):
like elegant, like dances andshit, so you'd see a lynx in the
gowns and the hair.
But you didn't really see Katfeatured in those ways and in
those lights most of the time.
And then, on top of that, liketo make it more sinister, some
of these parties were parties,were like celebrating the
founders and celebrating thetown, and we're talking about
(11:48):
virginia and pre-slavery time,so we have like a gone with the
wind themed party and it waslike the glorification of the
period of slavery.
And um, when you couple thatwith the fact that their only
Black main character keepskilling herself to save the
white people, you know what Imean.
(12:09):
In a show that's glorifyingslavery, it's like all these
glaring, glaring missteps andmissed opportunities.
And it's a shame because BonnieBennett was a badass witch and
she deserved so much betterwriting.
She deserved deeper, moremeaningful relationships,
relations.
If you didn't see her.
She lived with her dad.
You didn't see him for seasons,right, or her house, like for
(12:29):
his multiple seasons so it wasjust like so lacking and I felt
like bonnie crawled so taracould walk, because tara did
have more agency than bonnie andshe came with her own backstory
.
Tara in true blood excuse me,let's not say you mean true
blood.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Okay, yeah, yeah, but and she came with her own
backstory, tara in True Blood.
I was going to say you mean inTrue Blood.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
But she, she came with her ownblack story.
She had like her own historyand stuff.
They did get into some angryblack woman tropes but Tara was
still engaging and likable andyou know she came and they still
gave her the same thing whereshe wasn't considered the
desirable.
You, she was always pining forsuki's brother but he was
(13:07):
screwing everything else I meanhe was not to be desired anyway.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
No, but I'm just saying in general.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
And she had another thing, another gorgeous actress.
So I was like do you peoplehave eyes?
What a missed opportunity.
You know what I mean.
What are your thoughts on thosetwo?
And then I feel like, um, so if, if bonnie crawled so tara
could walk, because tara was alittle better, but it was still
flawed in some ways.
Then tara walked so that louiscould run, because, yeah, it's a
(13:35):
more modern show and so it hasa lot less of that but he's also
a man, so there's that tofigure in as well.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Um, so let me back up a little bit because, uh, the
vampire diaries was the one showof the three that I never
really watched and, to be honest, I didn't know there was a
black character on it.
I just thought it was because,you know, in the promotions I
saw, ok, we have these twovampires and then Nina Deprov's
character, the main girl there.
But then when you were talkingabout it, so I did take a look
(14:12):
at some of the episodes and Iwas like this is why one of the
reasons I stopped watching cwstuff.
Um, because yeah, there'salways the.
The black characters are usuallystory devices instead of
characters, instead of full,well-rounded characters like you
were talking about.
They're there to be supplementsto whatever the other
characters' journeys are and nothave any real journeys of their
own.
I mean, it seems like later onthey tried to do some stuff with
(14:38):
Bonnie's character, but at thatpoint it was like was anybody
even really watching the show,like in season seven or whatever
that was?
Um, so, but again, this was Idon't know when did that
premiere?
Early 2000s, um, let me addwhat you just said real quick.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Sure, even when they added all more things to
bonnie's character, it was shadyas fuck, though excuse my
language because they had herlife linked to Elena in the
Sleeping Beauty show.
So Elena, the main characterfor six seasons, like goes into
this coma and Bonnie's onlyalive because Elena's in a coma.
But that was because Nina leftthe show.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
That's what I was going to ask.
Nina left the show right.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
But in doing that then they turn the fandom
against Bonnie because then it'slike well, nina's gone because
you're alive.
So people are like rooting forher death in a certain community
because there was thatcommunity who wanted Elena with
Damon.
And then, more sinister is, ifyou actually read the books, in
the books Bonnie ends up withDamon.
Bonnie has a whole book thatshe narrates in the book series.
(15:40):
So she was a much moreprominent, did everything they
could to keep her from beingwith Damon and, you know I'm
sorry, in the series series soshe was a much more prominent,
did everything they could tokeep her from being Damon and
you know I'm sorry, in theseries they made her Black and,
like I said, did everything theycould to keep her from Damon.
And I'm like I wonder if thatwould have been the case if she
had been a white actress.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Probably not.
And interestingly enough I feltlike was it Ian Somerhalder?
That was Damon?
He and Kat Graham, in the fewepisodes that I saw, had natural
chemistry, as you know, asactors.
So I was like that would havebeen a really interesting
storyline if they had gone thatroute.
(17:43):
But there was something aboutthat time where they weren't
really doing interracialrelationships particularly a
black woman white manrelationships, particularly a
Black woman white man that Ithink scandal in recent times
really pushed that forward.
So now people see that it's nota thing anymore.
(18:06):
But yeah, I don't understandwhy the writers' rooms are so
scared about those types ofthings.
I bet people would have wantedto see that because from what I
saw those two had greatchemistry just as actors.
That storyline I never read thebook but that storyline I feel
like would have been incrediblyinteresting than what was
(18:26):
happening.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
What was happening felt unrealistic to me, because
Kat Graham and Ian are trappedin a prison world for a long
time just the two of them andthey're supposedly best friends
on the show.
But you got a hot best friend.
You know what I mean.
You're trapped alone with themforever, no other man, no other
woman on the face of the planet,and nothing happened, like it
(18:54):
wasn't giving a lot of realism.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, that's not realistic at all, especially
like they're both hot.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
There's no realism there, you know, and they're
best friends, so the bond hasalready started at that point.
You know what I mean, I don'tknow.
So it was like to me it feltlike they were actively avoiding
giving after, like, when I sayit was to the point where it was
like almost suicidal andridiculous the amount of time
(19:21):
she died.
She, her grandmother, died in ahelping her help Elena, um, her
father was murdered in front ofher.
They never gave her theopportunity to grieve on screen
for these things.
She just go away for a coupleepisodes, come back when she
dies for Jeremy and Jeremy'salive.
Then it's like well, enjoy yoursummer, jeremy.
Her ghost like well, enjoy yoursummer, jeremy, and Jeremy's
alive.
Then it's like well, enjoy yoursummer, jeremy.
(19:41):
Her ghost like well, enjoy yoursummer, jeremy, and don't tell
anyone.
So everybody's going alongtheir merry little life.
And what crappy friends arethey that they think she's like
away on vacation somewhere butshe's not posting or calling or
reaching out and you're notinquiring about her at all.
The only version she did.
Yeah, like you don't know she'sdead.
What kind of crappy friends areyou?
And then, when they finallydiscover she dies, when
(20:02):
Caroline's mom dies, they havethis elaborate, gorgeous funeral
in this church and it'sbeautiful.
You have all the teary-eyedcharacters.
When they discover Bonnie'sdead, she gets a tree stump in
the woods and they're likestanding around there talking
about how she helped them.
It was so ridiculous, showingme how much they cared about her
(20:24):
.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Yes, it is incredibly ridiculous because, like, what
are we doing?
But just like you said andthat's another thing about the
Black trauma stuff that I reallyget tired of it's just like we
have whole other lives, likeeveryone has their bits of
trauma and things that happen.
Like that's life.
Can we get some joy?
Like what is she into?
Let her have some joy.
Let her have a real boyfriendwho actually likes her and who's
(20:53):
not going to ask her to die forhim and will realize if she
does die, or whatever it is.
You know what I mean.
Like let her have some fun withDamon.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Like what, why, why, anyway, yeah, caroline and all
the other characters got so muchbetter, like they had multiple
relationship partners andrelationship arcs and she didn't
.
And then even the way theycreated the character, like they
would talk about her ancestor,who was Catherine, who is
(21:23):
Elena's doppelgangers.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
In the past.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Catherine was the vampire that changed the boys
into vampires and she looks justlike Elena, but they would
always talk about Bonnie'sancestor being Catherine's
handmaid.
We're talking about pre-slaverytime.
She was her slave, so thishandmaid and shit.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
I've never seen that.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Really, that's what you got.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Well, were they trying to do?
Was the Civil War going on atthat time I can't remember the
dates, or was it just ended?
Speaker 2 (21:56):
There were scenes where it was during the Civil
War.
So this was like show was likewould dive into pre-Civil War
and then some during theflashbacks.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
OK, because I remember, like she's like riding
in the carriage with her, and Iwas like she would not be
dressed like that.
Riding in the carriage with her, she's her slave.
Like let's be real.
So that kind of stuff too.
Like it's just like, oh, let'sjust glaze over this fact, so
that kind of stuff too.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Like it's just like, oh, let's just glaze over this
fact.
And it's like, on one hand,you're glorifying it with the
Gone, with the Wind parties andyou know all these flashbacks to
the period where you're onlyshowing what you think is the
grandeur, but you're not showingthe other side of the coin, but
then, on the other hand, you'reignoring it because you're not
calling her a slave, you'recalling her a handmaiden, you
(22:41):
know what I mean, or whatever.
And then not addressing it inany way, shape or form, but
constantly murdering your onlyBlack lead to save the white
people around her.
And I loved how True Blood intheir episodes, early episodes.
(23:02):
Tara got right to that, whenSuki and her vampire are sitting
there Straight out.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Did you own any slaves?
Exactly that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
And that would be what I would want to know.
You know what I mean.
You were around 100 years ago.
What were you?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
doing.
Right and everyone's actinglike, like.
Oh, he seems like a very kindgentleman, okay, but you were
around during this time, soexactly, yeah so at least they
took that on more head-on andthey um addressed racism.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
The elephant in the room with that character.
I liked that about tara.
Um, I found tara amusing thing.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
I always had a love-hate relationship With the
way they characterized Tara,because I loved okay, we've got
this strong black womancharacter and she's funny and
great and strong, but at thesame time she's still this angry
black woman trope and the bestfriend to all the white people
(24:01):
trope, um, and in comparison tolafayette um, who's fun, loving
and everything, it's just like.
Why does she have to be againlike the angry black woman um
that always annoyed me with hercharacter?
Um, but at the same time, likeyou said, she had backstory.
(24:21):
We know about her family.
She's an integral part of theweave, of everything that's
going on in the characters,especially like in the first
several seasons, um, when shebecomes a vampire, things get a
little weird with her um, and Iwas very unhappy with how they
killed her off um, butparticularly because because she
(24:43):
was a main, integral characterfrom the beginning, if we're
going to kill a character likethat, it needs to be epic, it
needs to be something remarkableand like she was killed off
screen and it's just like waitwhat?
It's very disrespectful um, andI can't remember, but I feel
(25:04):
like there was something goingon with rutina wellesley in that
show at the same time.
I don't know if she wanted tobe off the show or I can't.
I can't fully remember, sodon't quote me on that.
So it felt like the peoplemaking the show did that on
purpose as a disrespect to herand I literally stopped watching
the show at that moment and Istill haven't watched that last
(25:26):
season because I was so annoyedand it's just like, really, this
is what we're going to do.
Especially after she wasalready not in as many episodes.
They started focusing so muchon all these other random
characters that they startedbringing in towards like the
second half of the the show run.
(25:48):
Um, she wasn't around as much,um, and I kind of felt like her
storylines weren't all thatgreat, and then you just you
kill her off screen randomly.
It's just weird.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
It's something you don't do.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
That's exactly how they did and they it was the
opposite of the vampiregalleries in that way, because
with Bonnie it was around seasonsix, that you know when.
When Elena left the showbecause the actress left, then
they started oh well, we've doneeverything for six years with
the other people.
Let's see what we can do withBonnie, who we've ignored all
this time.
Let's start giving her somestoryline.
And yeah, with Tara it was theother way, the opposite.
(26:25):
She started off with moresubstance and then, like you
said, she kind of faded into theabyss and they just killed her.
But, like I said, I like theway they tackled racism.
They didn't ignore it in thatshow.
The vampire diaries ignored itso much that damon was a
confederate vampire, so he was aconfederate soldier, but racism
was never addressed.
The founders parade and otherlike dances and events they
(26:50):
would do ignored blackoppression and slavery and shit
like that.
But oh, let's glorify withthese lovely dances makes me
think of the dang plantationweddings that people do like.
Yes, plantations were for us.
What?
Speaker 3 (27:05):
in the world um, I don't remember who, was it just
scott, or somebody who was justlike you?
Don't see people gettingmarried at auschwitz so like,
what are we doing?
Like I don't understand whypeople don't hold that in a
similar way.
It's just really wild.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Right In Germany you wouldn't see any statues to
Hitler, but here we have statuesto people who fought to enslave
people yeah and they're tryingto put them back.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
It's crazy, it's insane and that's another reason
what you were talking aboutearlier.
I have a problem with peoplesaying about we're looking at
this with a modern lens.
It's just like these issueswere already here.
People were just ignoring it,so it's not really modern.
It's just like we're justfinally at some point being able
to shine a light on it, thoughthat light might be turning off
(27:56):
again soon, uh, or now, but yeahyeah, I think um, I think what
both shows got wrong was thattara and bonnie were both
treated as more disposable thantheir white carol the parts and
that's, and as a as a writer asa writer, but then also as a tv
(28:17):
viewer I almost go into shows ormovies, knowing I mean that
used to be the joke about horrormovies too, where it's like the
black person always gets killedfirst.
It was just like you know, we'rejust there as props and not
people, and I actually saw thatrecently on a TV show where it's
a show I won't name the show,but in general it has a show.
(28:41):
I won't name the show, but ingeneral it has a diverse cast um
.
But the beginning of the recentseason I saw all these.
There was more diversity and Iwas like, oh, I've never seen
all this diversity in thisparticular setting in the
previous seasons, only to killthose people off, um and have
them be traitors, and it's justjust like why?
It's just like, oh, they'regoing to let's pretend we're
(29:03):
even upping the diversity, butnow these people are disposable
and they're quote, bad.
So it's just like you're justdoing the same stuff up the
diversity correctly, um, at thattime.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Hopefully we've evolved more now, but like um,
for example, bonnie's characterwas like if you ever listen to
um donald clayton, she talksabout painting the roses red and
that's what bonnie's characterfelt like like a picture of a
rose painted red, not like anactual 3d rose, because it was
like you have this Black witch,but her magic systems were
European-based and there's noneof the cultural touchstones that
(29:46):
make the fact that she's Blackrelevant to the story at all.
Really, you know what I mean.
They did make her ancestor,catherine's handmaiden or
whatever.
But it's not like she's usingany Black magic systems.
You're not seeing a lot ofBlack culture, like when she's
in her house with what's beingreflected or what they're eating
, or you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
There's, yeah, no nuance to the character in that
way I noticed that when, um,there was a scene and someone
was asking her if she hadrelatives in salem, and she was
like I do, and I was like whywould her relatives be from
salem?
Like when african-american,afamerican, african history has
its own like mysticalbackstories and, like you know,
(30:23):
those are so like, why not usethose systems instead of the
European?
Like to me, like I didn't, likeI said I didn't even fully
watch that show, but I caughtthat, um, and it was just a
short conversation and I wasjust like why the South has so
much rich history and all ofthat, that's where her powers
would come from, most likely.
That's what makes more sense.
(30:45):
So, yeah, exactly, you just dosome Googling, it's not that
hard to find.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Exactly, and I think a way for writers who are
currently trying to write thesescenes to avoid some of the
pitfalls is, like you said, asimple Google search.
Do some research, get somereaders of color who can flag
things for you, cause none of usare perfect.
You know we can all putsomething in there that might
accidentally offend somebody.
(31:14):
But to try to avoid it and, youknow, give your characters
nuance, make them whole people,and if your character is the bad
guy, then have somerepresentation of your story of
a black person or a person ofcolor who is not the bad guy.
That way it doesn't look likethe only image you're selling is
the negative.
You know what I mean.
(31:35):
It doesn't even have to be amajor character, at least a
smaller character, but just sothere's representation of the
positive aspect there tooexactly, and I also thought it
was funny, but not in like afully haha, way.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Well, one of the vampires I think she was like
newly turned and the first twopeople she kills are black
people that was caroline and oneof, and I was just like nobody
said anything one of them wasthe dude that Bonnie liked.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
But, we're supposed to pity her and not the poor
Black dude she murdered at thecarnival for nothing.
He's just trying to exist.
She eats him and we're supposedto pity her.
Crazy and Caroline's characterto me was so obnoxious in the
beginning of the show.
I don't know how she went fromthat to having such a major lead
in the show, because she wasprobably one of my least
(32:24):
favorites.
I didn't hate her.
Toward the end they made hermore well-rounded.
She was definitely not my fave.
Who was your fave from?
Speaker 3 (32:33):
what you saw.
From what I saw like I said, Ididn't watch the whole show.
From what I did see, I didn'tsee a lot of Bonnie.
Other characters I saw.
I don't even remember what hisname was the nicer vampire was
an interesting character.
(32:55):
I didn't really.
Honestly, it was definitely ashow I didn't watch back in the
day.
Even now, honestly, it wasdefinitely a show I wouldn't
have.
Well, I didn't watch it back inthe day and even now I got kind
of annoyed with it and it'sjust like this is kind of boring
.
It's just like, oh, can we get?
I'm done with these characters.
Is there anybody else on thisshow?
But at the same time it's I cansay it was written for the
(33:22):
channel, like the channel thatit was on.
It fit into that, so it waswhat it was supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, and as a younger person who liked
speculative fiction and likedfantasy, there wasn't a lot that
included us at that time, rightyeah?
So that's why, even withBonnie's flaws, it was like yay,
a black witch, you know, yeahand um, did you?
Speaker 3 (33:49):
we didn't know.
Did you watch the new?
We're talking about vampires,but did you watch the newer
version of charms at all?
Speaker 2 (33:55):
I did yep, I watched it.
To me it wasn't that muchdifferent than the original
Charmed.
I think they stuck with thesame format.
They did infuse a little moreculture in the characters and
stuff like that.
It was sad, though, that Ididn't feel like the show was
given as much of a chance,because some of the original
(34:18):
actresses spoke out against itand were not liking it, so it
didn't get as much support, butto me it felt very Charm
Reboot-ish.
It felt very much the sameformula.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
We haven't really talked about Louis.
Oh yeah, that's what you justsaid, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
So what were your thoughts on Louis?
Speaker 3 (34:40):
It's interesting because Interview with a Vampire
.
The movie was one of myfavorite movies back then.
I thought it was done reallywell.
I liked, in terms of vampires,anne Rice's version of vampires
because they were sexier andmore palatable than back in the
day day, the ugly one thatturned into bats and that sort
(35:00):
of thing, um, but and at thattime like I had nobody it's
rooted in like, like um medievaleuropean times or whatever, um,
but I really love this newversion with Louie in New
(35:21):
Orleans, like they cause I meanthey were in New Orleans before
anyway but like to have himrooted there as a black man and
the way they, like we know, theway they've written his
backstory.
They don't shy away as to whatlife was like for Black people
at that time and how.
(35:43):
All of that, those experiencesas a Black person, racism, all
of that I'm forgetting my wordsbut informs who he is as a
person and then as a character.
Who he is as a person and thenas a character, um, and I love
(36:05):
that because you under, at leastI understand why he's making
certain choices or conflicted,like he's so conflicted, um,
leaving his family, and likethey're they're all still in the
same area, but like, especiallywhen he's a vampire now and he
can't really be around them, um,but he still wants to be
connected to them in some way.
Um just working with andfighting for people in his
(36:29):
community.
I want lots of things happen,as he just felt like an actual
person slash character and notjust some plot device.
Um, and I really appreciatethat some plot device and I
really appreciate that with thisseries and I have to say I've
only watched the first season, Ihaven't seen the other.
Were there three seasons?
I know there's at least two andI agree.
(36:54):
More of a haunted character.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Definitely.
I agree completely.
He's a primary protagonist.
His love life, his identity,everything's fully fleshed out
and it's central to the plot.
He's not just the off to theside person that comes in and
plays a magical Negro when theyneed someone to die to save
everyone else.
And I also like the way they'rebalanced with their portrayal,
(37:27):
whereas like in the first season, if you remember.
Louis was a pimp and that'swhere his wealth came from.
But then you have his family,who's more spiritual and who's
completely opposed to thatlifestyle.
So you're showing a balance.
You're not depicting, like all,black men as pimps kind of
thing, and I think with allcharacters might not be as
essential to do that, becausewith white people we have a
(37:48):
million different views ofwhiteness that we've seen in
stories in this country.
But with people of color,because there aren't as many
depictions and this might be theonly depiction someone sees.
I think it's important to havethat balance to where, if
somebody's going to be staunchlynegative, you should have at
least some representative ofthis is not the whole, because
this right look you're puttingtheir hand might be their only
(38:09):
view of blackness.
We don't know.
You know what I mean yeah,definitely, but I like that they
do the balance in that show.
I like that he has a love lifeand romantic pairings and just
depth really, you know yeah haveyou seen um seasons past?
Speaker 3 (38:36):
season one, yes, does that continue?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
It does.
Okay, it does.
I love the way they handle thechild vampire, claudia.
Yeah, as well.
Her death was sad, though thatwas heartbreaking, but I like
the the.
To me that the thing about agood remake is you want to have
(39:06):
the elements of the original sothat we get the reminiscing, the
fond memory, but you want tohave enough of a twist to make
it fresh and exciting andengaging on your own, and I feel
like they give that yeah, I canagree with that, just even from
what I saw um, oh my gosh.
(39:26):
And when I was complaining aboutBonnie, one thing else I forgot
.
So, like I said, they kill hergrand, her father's murdered in
front of her, and never is sheallowed to really fully grieve
on screen.
Right, then they make her theanchor to the other side, so for
anybody to die they have toliterally pass through her and
she feels their death.
Oh God, they just tormentedthis character forever.
(39:49):
And then, when she finally getsa love scene, when she, her and
Jeremy are hooking up, thatcan't even be a ah, I found love
romantic moment, because thensomebody has to die and pass
through her and it becomes apainful thing for her.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Oh my God.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Every way they could abuse this girl.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Let a Black girl be happy Jesus.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
You know what I mean.
And with Louis, like I said, hehas his ups, he has his downs,
he has his painful moments, butyou never feel like he's not a
fully fleshed out, realizedcharacter in those moments he
has all of the things that hehas.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
I wonder if the same could still be said if the
character was a Black woman,because, for whatever reason, I
feel like the writing is quotedifficult or whatever when it
comes to black women as this,where some sort of like extra
creature that's not human,that's so hard to write about or
write for, and it's just likewhy it it annoys me so much and
(40:57):
yet still not hiring the peoplewho need to be in the writer's
room to make sure that doesn'thappen.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Exactly, that's true.
That's a good point, that'sdefinitely a good point.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
And when they do they're usually lower on the run
, so they can't really pushforward any real hard
suggestions.
They just have to do whatthey're told.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
So yeah, I like that.
Louis wasn't a paint the rosesred character, he's a creole
black man and then they madethat central to the story, like
um, there are scenes where hehas more agency.
Um, I'm trying to think of theexample.
There's like one scene inparticular where he has more
agency.
I'm trying to think of theexample.
(41:45):
There was like one scene inparticular where he's talking to
this white man and he's Creole.
So maybe because he's not I'msensing but I didn't just
freshly rewatch this, so give mesome grace if I'm wrong but to
me it felt like there were someplaces that he can get into
because he's creole, so he hadthe lighter skin thing for him
going on, but he's still black.
(42:06):
So then there were limitationsdefinitely to his freedom, and I
remember there was oneconversation with him and this
man where the man was basicallylike pining for the days when he
would not have to, when hewould not be in here and he
wouldn't have to engage with him, kind of thing, and so they
don't like shy away from theracism.
I remember there was a scenewhere there's like a poker game
(42:26):
in the first episode and Louisis talking to him telepathically
and Louis is basically like youknow, I hate the way they treat
you and your people in thistime.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
You mean Lestat, lestat.
Excuse me, I'm saying Lestat.
I mean.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
I'm saying Louis Lestat, excuse me, I'm saying
Lestat.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
I mean I'm saying Louis Lestat is telepathically
telling these things to.
Louis.
Lestat, by the way, was myfavorite character in the books
hands down.
Damon was my favorite in thevampire series After Bonnie.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
I always liked the bad boy.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
I don't know why, but yeah, but they, like I said,
tackled that head on.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
I like that yeah, because it would be stupid for
them not to.
I mean you can't, you can't seta story in this time frame, in
that location and not address it, um, and have this main
character be like you.
I mean you can try, but it'sgonna be stupid, right, you know
(43:24):
?
I mean like why, allow yourcreative project to look stupid
when you just address it likethese things happened.
They still are happening, um,so, which makes your story still
relevant to what's going on now, like these times.
So it's just like let's stoppretending that these things
didn't happen, aren't happeningbecause they did and they are,
(43:46):
um, exactly, and I personallythink the creators and writers
look smarter to just address itthan to try and like shy and
skirt away from it.
That's stupid very true.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
I liked, too, that they played with a different
time period.
For example, the vampirediaries didn't have to glorify
the pre-slavery years In aninterview with a vampire.
That's not the time they're in.
You know, if they're vampires,they've lived over 100 years.
You could have picked any timeon that spectrum to start your
(44:19):
story in, but you chose the oneyou wanted to glorify and that
is what that is, um.
What was also interesting, um,is the behind the scenes
treatment of some of theseactors, um, like, uh, retina or
retina excuse me, wesley.
Um, you know, the retina, whoplayed tara thornton, got a lot
(44:40):
of hate and racism from fans,like Ratina or Ratuna excuse me,
wesley.
Ratina, who played TaraThornton, got a lot of hate and
racism from fans online and shefelt like there was a lack of
protection for her character'slegacy in some ways.
Yeah, and then there's thiswhole thing online with how Pat
(45:01):
Graham was treated by the fandomand also by the showrunners.
Like, if you watch interviews,they would interrupt her a lot
and she would talk about wantingthe relationship with her and
dave and wanting these thingsand that you know, kind of being
shot down and and one time shejoked that the writers wanted to
(45:22):
kill her off but they mighthave been afraid of fan backlash
because she was beloved.
And again, she was the onlyBlack lead on the show and in
some interviews you see herbeing ignored by her castmates
Wow.
So there's a lot of interestingstuff.
And the Boy Meets World theonly black girl on that show.
If you watch interviews of hertalking about that time, she
(45:44):
talks about the same thing, likeexperiencing some racism on the
set and not feeling like shewas being treated very well.
So that has to be interestingbeing the only on the set and
experiencing those things, Imean it's crazy Nicole Berry on
Sleepy Hollow on the set andexperiencing those things.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
I mean it's crazy.
Nicole Berry on Sleepy Hollowhad I mean, they treated her
poorly as well.
I mean it's just like this isyour lead, who's doing an
awesome job.
People are watching the showfor these people and you're
treating them like shit, like Idon't know Exactly.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
And I guess the lesson and the takeaway is that
black viewers, like all viewers,we want well-rounded cast.
We want to see ourselvesreflected, just like you do, but
we want fully realizeddepictions.
We don't want to just be theshallow best friend who has no
life outside of saving you.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
We want to be able to only point out existing yeah,
and it's like, is that betterthan like, I don't know, like I
think about like some othergroups who just aren't as like,
represented much at all, becausewe talk about the Black
characters, but whereas theAsian vampires and the Latino
(47:03):
vampires Latino vampires, allthat, though they did have.
But anyway, I was trying tothink back on True Blood, but
it's just like what's worse.
Maybe it's not even like toeven have that conversation.
Worse, maybe it's not even liketo even have that conversation.
(47:23):
Um, is it worse to be thesparable character that's there
to die for everybody else, or isit better to not be there at
all?
I don't know good point.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Um, that's why I said she crawled so tara could walk
and tara walked so louis couldrun.
This would be a fully fleshedout character because, you're
right, the representation wasn'tthere.
So at the time, you know, ifthat was what you're interested
in, you took it because that waswhat was available exactly yeah
, and all this wasn't that longago, this would be talking what
(47:51):
less than 20 years?
yeah, um yeah, between and Ilove my white friends, but I'm
not going to die for y'allrepeatedly.
I'm sorry and you're not myfriends if you expect me to.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
I'm sorry y'all, but if you know any.
Black people.
It's not happening.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
See you next time.
Because in reality, the sisterwould be the first one running
in the horror movie.
It'd be like, oh hell, no,what's that Exactly?
Michael Myers is coming.
I'm out of here.
Speaker 3 (48:24):
Goodbye, walking through the house Like who's
there.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Yes, I'm not in the woods investigating shit, I'm
out the door.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
You know funny story I went to a haunted house with
some of my friends like severalyears back.
Like you get to the end andlike you know, like when you're
waiting in line outside you seepeople being chased out with
chainsaws, with these guysrunning after them with
chainsaws.
So you know, that's the end atsome point.
So I'm going through thishaunted house with my friends
(48:55):
and we get to that point and theguy, so there's like's like
this doorway and the guy withthe chainsaw is standing there
and, for whatever reason, hewalks away.
So I'm like, okay, here's atime to go.
So like I walk through the doorand all of a sudden I hear the
chainsaw rev up again and I'mout like I don't look for my
(49:17):
friend.
I don't turn around, I'm justout and like it was like a bit
of a maze too, but someone likeI was running so fast and then I
just like bolted out the door.
Meanwhile they my friends werelike behind me and he ends up
chasing them out, but they werelike we turned our heads next
thing.
We just see you.
(49:37):
I don't need to hear or knowanything else.
Dude's got a chainsaw and it'son.
Goodbye.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Years ago.
Years ago, I was probably in mylate teens, early 20s.
I was working at McDonald's asa cashier and the power went out
and my manager had the brightidea to lock the door.
So if anybody took everything,anything like all the suspects
would remain.
I don't know what he wasthinking, but he locks the door,
the power's out.
When the lights come back on,they can't find me.
(50:09):
Why my black ass was hiding inthe closet.
I was a cashier.
I'm not going to be standing infront of the money in the dark
with strange spirits.
I'm sorry, exactly, you're nothitting me to get to the jury.
Y'all don't pay me enough todie.
I was in the closet, yeah.
Lights came back on there tofind me with the brooms hiding.
No, no, no, not me, not today.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
I was up to a hero Like why would you not just let
them leave?
Yes, that was insane.
I don't know why he even didthat.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
What was he thinking?
And then the same thing, asimilar thing happened one time
at um home depot when I used towork there when I was young I
worked many jobs when I was ayoung person and home depot
stayed open.
The power was out and they hadlike the, the emergency backup,
the dimmer lights, and they hadus like walking people through
the aisles with flashlights sothey could continue shopping and
(51:03):
then people cashiers aresupposed to literally with a
calculator calculate what thetotals were and just take cash
only.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
It was crazy I had to do that.
I worked at a movie theater inhigh school when the power went
out and we had to do things withthe calculator.
Well, at first we didn't evenhave the calculators and it was
just like do it in your head orwhatever.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
I'm just like what?
Speaker 3 (51:26):
So I'd be like oh, it's about $20.
But then you couldn't even openup the drawer.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
I feel so sorry for the little Chick-fil-A kids.
You see them standing outside.
Oh, I know right, it can becold or whatever.
They have them standing outside.
I'm like, oh, I remember beingyoung, but there are other jobs,
maybe you don't have to freeze,yeah.
Find something indoors whereyou can hide in the closet.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
Hide in the closet.
Well, at least if they'reoutside they could run away.
Yeah, that's true.
Not wishing anyone anyone, butyeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
So any final words you want to leave people on this
topic who are thinking aboutwriting characters in the Black
speculative space or in thespeculative space including any
like if you're writingcharacters that are outside of
your cultural zone, or whateveryou want to call it.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
Do some research.
Um, you know, talk to people,even like I'm writing a story or
um, there are some asiancharacters and I know that I'm
gonna reach out to some people.
Read this.
Do I have the culture right?
Um, you know, especially theway people speak in culture.
So if you have characters goinghome and talking to their
(52:49):
families, they're most likelygoing to talk differently um
than they would in public spaceswith other people.
Um, so, just be conscious andaware of those things.
So you, you know you're notoffending people, but also just
you have better characters andwell-rounded characters.
(53:11):
Even if you're doing fantasyand creating other beings, they
still need to be rounded beings,you know.
But you know, I just just don'tbe lazy.
Don't be lazy writers.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
Very true, Very true.
Like she said, get people toread.
You can even look intosensitivity reading.
I've done sensitivity readingsbefore.
Reach out to me, ask my rates.
Other people do them.
You know what I mean.
Reach out to sensitivityreaders.
Sensitivity reading gets a badrap a lot of times.
People want to look at it ascensorship, but really it can
(53:55):
help enrich your story becauseit doesn't have to all be this
is wrong, this is bad.
Sometimes it's just helpingimprove it.
it might be a holiday meal andyou're serving the wrong thing
you know exactly they can pointout the cultural nuances and
touchstones that make thecharacters feel well-rounded and
not like a rose painted red andum sweet potato pie, not
(54:17):
pumpkin.
Exactly, Exactly.
And to me, even if you'resomeone who doesn't care about
hurting people with harmfuldepictions, to me it just seems
like a common sense thing to doto not want to offend people who
might buy future books.
You don't want to offend awhole audience of book buyers.
(54:45):
You want people to buy yourbooks, exactly yes.
So you might want to havethoughtful representation.
Have representation, but justhave it well-rounded and
thoughtful.
Speaker 3 (54:50):
Yeah, and then nobody's telling you that you
are racist or a bad person,because they're trying to help
you make it better.
It's just learning.
It's just you have to think ofit as education.
What education?
And like we all need it, causenone of us are all knowing about
every culture and every type ofperson and religion and
everything that's out there.
(55:11):
So it's you want to do that,it's fine.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
It's no one saying that you're bad.
Yeah, exactly, and I myself inthe past I told you this before.
Remember one of my very firstthings I wrote.
I had a beta reader read it andthey told me that it was like
misogynistic, and as a woman Iwas so embarrassed.
But as a kid who grew up onPepper Rain the movie where
(55:40):
they're throwing the lady of thedumpster at hip-hop music there
probably was a lot ofinternalized misogyny in there,
that I and learn.
So while it was embarrassing asa woman, it was also a learning
experience and that was likeokay, wow, let me look at this
with a different lens and thenrealize where I can grow you
know what I mean and do betterand thank God for that because
(56:00):
I'd rather be embarrassedprivately by you telling me that
I can improve something and becaught with my pants down
publicly out here looking crazyin the world you have to stop
the big scandals and peopletaking your book off the shelf
ahead of time.
Exactly, I don't want to beembarrassed publicly, I don't
want to be a hashtag.
Yeah, so yeah, we all learn, weall grow.
(56:22):
The shows were good for theirtime and the more modern one
obviously was more modern in itsperspective.
All right, we appreciate youguys for joining us as we took
you on another writer's journey.
Have a great day, happy writing.
Happy writing.
Speaker 4 (56:54):
That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD
Mayer.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
jdmayercom.
That's jdmayercom.
(57:14):
While you're there, join JD'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
writing journey.
(00:26):
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmayalcom.
That's jdmayalcom.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
In this episode of Craft Chat Chronicles, we are
going on a writer's journey withgood friends and good writers.
Enjoy, hey guys, welcome.
Today I'm going to be going ona lovely journey with my dear,
sweet, intelligent, kind,wonderful, charming friend, jay
Marie.
Before we get started withtoday's topic, I just wanted to
(01:04):
check in with you and see what'snew.
So what have you been workingon this week?
What's been going on with youthis week, jay?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Yeah, so I'm continuing to work on the story
that you and I have been talkingabout.
So it's something a script thatI had written a few years ago
that I'm reworking, and then anextra special detail about that
I won't share now, but maybelater about something else I'm
doing with it, but I'm workingon this story and I've been
(01:32):
using this craft book calledStory Genius, which is a book
that we used in our MFA program,and it's really helping me
clarify the third rail typethings, the internal struggles
that are going on with myprotagonist and to connect to
the bigger story.
(01:53):
And I had two really fruitfulwriting sessions this week which
helped me connect some of thehistorical social things in the
US that are part of the biggerstory to her internal struggles
(02:13):
and it made me very happy andit's going to make a lot of the
other things that happen moreexciting and clear and what I
really wanted from it to beginwith.
So it's been a very um, goodwriting week, not stressful,
like fun it was.
It felt fun Like it should be.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I've had a pretty good week.
Um, writing wise, I've beendoing more revision than
anything.
Um, writing wise, I've beendoing more revision than
anything and finally started thefirst chapter of book two in
the Heart Scam Bit series.
(02:58):
I was struggling to tear myselfaway from something else I was
working on because I was lovingit, but now I'm starting to get
into the groove and getting intothe love with book two in the
Heart Scam Bit series and.
But I also wanted to clearsomething up.
I spoke in a couple episodesabout how I did this Black
History Month display and Idisplayed these different books
by Black authors and things likethat, and then I had the covers
of some of them laminated andhung up as well and the hate you
(03:23):
gave was taken off of thedisplay and the cover picture
was taken down.
And this was like around thetime we're at the job we were
being talked to about what's theprocess if someone challenges a
book and how, like differentclaim changes in the social and
political climate might affectus.
Job wise, like with theDepartment of Education and
libraries, or libraries in a lotof places are through the
(03:45):
Department of Education andstuff like that.
So with all this stuff in mindand them talking about how
people you know try to narrowpolitically and in courts.
You know the scope of what goeson our shelves and how we're
pushing back against thatconstantly.
When I saw that, I thought thatit was intentional because that
(04:08):
book deals with policebrutality.
So then I was feeling like Iwas censored and I was all in my
feels for a couple of days.
Actually I didn't say anything,of course, but I was like
silently stewing in my feelsbecause I was like, because it
was that particular book, andthen it was replaced by a
fantasy book and the picture wasdown.
And if the picture had alonebeen down, I would have thought,
(04:29):
well, maybe the picture fell.
But when the picture was downand the book was gone and then
it was replaced by a fantasy, Iwas like what the hell?
And I was very surprisedbecause, like I said, like I
told you before, most people Iwork with are allies and
supporters of free speech andstuff like that and the right to
read.
So I was very surprised by it.
And then I discovered it wasn'twhat I thought at all, because
(04:50):
employees come in one door, theback door and the public comes
in the front and basicallysomeone had done a display where
they were talking about, like,novels that the staff love and
staff picks, and they took thatone off of my black history
month and put it on that displayby the front door and basically
made it my pick, because if itcame off my display so they knew
(05:11):
it was a book I was, you know,fond of, yeah, so then it was
like this whole time I'msilently stewing and then by the
front door, which is the doorthat staff doesn't use, which is
the first thing everyone wouldsee when they came in, they had
it it there.
So then I felt better andrelieved by that because you
know, I wasn't being censored.
I had been stewing for nothingWith all the verbiage that had
(05:33):
been going on at work and themtrying to prepare us for
whatever negativities may come.
That was what, the first thingthat came in my head.
So I'm happy to report that inthis case that wasn't the case.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Well, that's good, I mean, that's really great.
But it's understandable why youmight think that way, because
basically, it's not that theyjust even like, took it down and
put it somewhere else.
It got replaced where, like Iwould think, if they were just
going to take it, they were justgoing to take it and put it
wherever they're going to put it, and maybe that would be
missing from the display.
And then you might be like, oh,what happened to something?
And the fact that no one said,oh, we're doing this, so it's
(06:11):
going to be up here.
So I mean it's understandable,but it's good that you're able
to, you know, clear it up andall is well.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
All is definitely well.
So today we're going to betalking about, like Southern
Gothic horrors and vampires, andspecifically Black vampires as
well.
I say as well because we cantalk about all the vampires and
that stuff too.
But the shows that we chose notthe Vampire Diaries, they don't
(06:38):
really have any strong Blackvampire representation, but they
do have Bonnie Vembit, bonnieVembit, bonnie Bennett, who was
the black witch on that show,and then we also chose true
blood and the remake ofinterview with a vampire to be
our um topics of the day.
We're going to be talking aboutsouthern gothic and vampires
and we're going to be exploringit from a writing and craft
(07:04):
perspective, when time evolvesand consciousness evolves and
I'm not going to pretend like Ididn't love all of these shows
at the time that they were out,yeah, but when you look back on
things with a modern lens,sometimes it changes your
perspective on things.
So that's what we're trying todo today.
(07:26):
So let me start with theVampire Diaries and first of all
shout out to Kat Graham, whokilled it as Bonnie Bennett, and
she was one of the mostredeeming things about that
character, because the writingthey could have done way better
by Bob.
But, yeah, Kat Graham wasfabulous as an actress.
(07:51):
The problem I had with lookingback on the show now with a
modern perspective and, mind you, like I said, when it came out,
I loved it.
I didn't see this stuff.
But looking back now, all theseyears later, more mature
perspective on the things, theproblem I see with the way they
wrote the character was theymade her the Black best friend
trope.
She didn't have a lot of,especially in the earlier season
(08:15):
.
I think it was like season sixwhen they started giving her a
little more agency and morestory.
But she didn't really have likebackstory and stuff and it was
like her whole life was to helpmagically and die repeatedly for
her white castmates you knowwhat I mean.
And these vampires who, if youwatch the show, predominantly
(08:36):
only came to her when theyreally like needed something.
It was always can you do this?
Can you do this?
One time Damon is like will yourisk everything for Elena,
would you even die for her?
Or something like that I'mparaphrasing.
It was like he said yes,exactly, and at first it's like
okay, save the cat, you know,we're sacrificing for your other
castmates to prove, to make youa likable character.
(08:57):
But then it just went on and onso much to where it was like is
she suicidal?
Does she have a death wish?
They're not even real friendsto ask her to die repeatedly for
it.
I mean, like like we're friends, I wouldn't come to you and say
repeatedly, put your life onthe line, you know what I'm
saying and I wouldn't offer tobe Exactly.
(09:19):
And the worst of it.
There was a couple of worst ofit, but like when she was in the
prison, world and life justwent on, she wasn't gone.
And then when they treated herlike she wasn't as desirable or
attractive as the other castmembers which is crazy, because
Cady Graham is drop deadgorgeous, gorgeous, yeah, but
(09:39):
like they didn't give her a loveinterest forever.
The first guy that she reallyshowed interest in was basically
like you're desperate, it's anactual conversation.
He was basically a bad, avillain, and he was like well,
you're so desperate, you madethis easy.
And then when they had her withJeremy Elena's brother, that
(10:00):
was a significant relationship.
It felt like at first I thoughtthey were kind of mismatched
but I warmed to it.
Then he cheated on her with hisdead ex-girlfriend after she
had died to save him.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Who died to save him, bonnie did.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Bonnie again sacrificed her life, so that
Jeremy could live right.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Oh boy.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
And he cheats on her.
She's the only character in thewhole series that got cheated
on, the whole only maincharacter in a show all about
romance and vampires.
They never gave her asignificant romance.
And then when she finally getsEnzo, who's supposed to be like
the love of her life guy, theykill him too, because they
killed off a lot of her romance,her love interest too.
(10:43):
But they kill him too becausethey killed off a lot of her
romance, their love interest too.
But they kill him too.
But then he was her.
She was his third pick.
He liked caroline.
Before that he had a thing fordamon's mom, like she was the
third pick and, um, even he madea comment one time to her early
on before they got together,where he was like you were
acting like the kind of personwho's never been fought for.
(11:03):
And then it was like, wow,screw you.
Writers like y'all just wowwe're trying to brainwash us
into thinking that this girl islike unattractive and
undesirable.
And have you seen her?
Like, you know what I mean.
And then they would have theseevents and things where the
other girls got to be all glamand in these, like you know,
(11:27):
like elegant, like dances andshit, so you'd see a lynx in the
gowns and the hair.
But you didn't really see Katfeatured in those ways and in
those lights most of the time.
And then, on top of that, liketo make it more sinister, some
of these parties were parties,were like celebrating the
founders and celebrating thetown, and we're talking about
(11:48):
virginia and pre-slavery time,so we have like a gone with the
wind themed party and it waslike the glorification of the
period of slavery.
And um, when you couple thatwith the fact that their only
Black main character keepskilling herself to save the
white people, you know what Imean.
(12:09):
In a show that's glorifyingslavery, it's like all these
glaring, glaring missteps andmissed opportunities.
And it's a shame because BonnieBennett was a badass witch and
she deserved so much betterwriting.
She deserved deeper, moremeaningful relationships,
relations.
If you didn't see her.
She lived with her dad.
You didn't see him for seasons,right, or her house, like for
(12:29):
his multiple seasons so it wasjust like so lacking and I felt
like bonnie crawled so taracould walk, because tara did
have more agency than bonnie andshe came with her own backstory
.
Tara in true blood excuse me,let's not say you mean true
blood.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Okay, yeah, yeah, but and she came with her own
backstory, tara in True Blood.
I was going to say you mean inTrue Blood.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
But she, she came with her ownblack story.
She had like her own historyand stuff.
They did get into some angryblack woman tropes but Tara was
still engaging and likable andyou know she came and they still
gave her the same thing whereshe wasn't considered the
desirable.
You, she was always pining forsuki's brother but he was
(13:07):
screwing everything else I meanhe was not to be desired anyway.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
No, but I'm just saying in general.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
And she had another thing, another gorgeous actress.
So I was like do you peoplehave eyes?
What a missed opportunity.
You know what I mean.
What are your thoughts on thosetwo?
And then I feel like, um, so if, if bonnie crawled so tara
could walk, because tara was alittle better, but it was still
flawed in some ways.
Then tara walked so that louiscould run, because, yeah, it's a
(13:35):
more modern show and so it hasa lot less of that but he's also
a man, so there's that tofigure in as well.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Um, so let me back up a little bit because, uh, the
vampire diaries was the one showof the three that I never
really watched and, to be honest, I didn't know there was a
black character on it.
I just thought it was because,you know, in the promotions I
saw, ok, we have these twovampires and then Nina Deprov's
character, the main girl there.
But then when you were talkingabout it, so I did take a look
(14:12):
at some of the episodes and Iwas like this is why one of the
reasons I stopped watching cwstuff.
Um, because yeah, there'salways the.
The black characters are usuallystory devices instead of
characters, instead of full,well-rounded characters like you
were talking about.
They're there to be supplementsto whatever the other
characters' journeys are and nothave any real journeys of their
own.
I mean, it seems like later onthey tried to do some stuff with
(14:38):
Bonnie's character, but at thatpoint it was like was anybody
even really watching the show,like in season seven or whatever
that was?
Um, so, but again, this was Idon't know when did that
premiere?
Early 2000s, um, let me addwhat you just said real quick.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Sure, even when they added all more things to
bonnie's character, it was shadyas fuck, though excuse my
language because they had herlife linked to Elena in the
Sleeping Beauty show.
So Elena, the main characterfor six seasons, like goes into
this coma and Bonnie's onlyalive because Elena's in a coma.
But that was because Nina leftthe show.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
That's what I was going to ask.
Nina left the show right.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
But in doing that then they turn the fandom
against Bonnie because then it'slike well, nina's gone because
you're alive.
So people are like rooting forher death in a certain community
because there was thatcommunity who wanted Elena with
Damon.
And then, more sinister is, ifyou actually read the books, in
the books Bonnie ends up withDamon.
Bonnie has a whole book thatshe narrates in the book series.
(15:40):
So she was a much moreprominent, did everything they
could to keep her from beingwith Damon and, you know I'm
sorry, in the series series soshe was a much more prominent,
did everything they could tokeep her from being Damon and
you know I'm sorry, in theseries they made her Black and,
like I said, did everything theycould to keep her from Damon.
And I'm like I wonder if thatwould have been the case if she
had been a white actress.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Probably not.
And interestingly enough I feltlike was it Ian Somerhalder?
That was Damon?
He and Kat Graham, in the fewepisodes that I saw, had natural
chemistry, as you know, asactors.
So I was like that would havebeen a really interesting
storyline if they had gone thatroute.
(17:43):
But there was something aboutthat time where they weren't
really doing interracialrelationships particularly a
black woman white manrelationships, particularly a
Black woman white man that Ithink scandal in recent times
really pushed that forward.
So now people see that it's nota thing anymore.
(18:06):
But yeah, I don't understandwhy the writers' rooms are so
scared about those types ofthings.
I bet people would have wantedto see that because from what I
saw those two had greatchemistry just as actors.
That storyline I never read thebook but that storyline I feel
like would have been incrediblyinteresting than what was
(18:26):
happening.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
What was happening felt unrealistic to me, because
Kat Graham and Ian are trappedin a prison world for a long
time just the two of them andthey're supposedly best friends
on the show.
But you got a hot best friend.
You know what I mean.
You're trapped alone with themforever, no other man, no other
woman on the face of the planet,and nothing happened, like it
(18:54):
wasn't giving a lot of realism.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, that's not realistic at all, especially
like they're both hot.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
There's no realism there, you know, and they're
best friends, so the bond hasalready started at that point.
You know what I mean, I don'tknow.
So it was like to me it feltlike they were actively avoiding
giving after, like, when I sayit was to the point where it was
like almost suicidal andridiculous the amount of time
(19:21):
she died.
She, her grandmother, died in ahelping her help Elena, um, her
father was murdered in front ofher.
They never gave her theopportunity to grieve on screen
for these things.
She just go away for a coupleepisodes, come back when she
dies for Jeremy and Jeremy'salive.
Then it's like well, enjoy yoursummer, jeremy.
Her ghost like well, enjoy yoursummer, jeremy, and Jeremy's
alive.
Then it's like well, enjoy yoursummer, jeremy.
(19:41):
Her ghost like well, enjoy yoursummer, jeremy, and don't tell
anyone.
So everybody's going alongtheir merry little life.
And what crappy friends arethey that they think she's like
away on vacation somewhere butshe's not posting or calling or
reaching out and you're notinquiring about her at all.
The only version she did.
Yeah, like you don't know she'sdead.
What kind of crappy friends areyou?
And then, when they finallydiscover she dies, when
(20:02):
Caroline's mom dies, they havethis elaborate, gorgeous funeral
in this church and it'sbeautiful.
You have all the teary-eyedcharacters.
When they discover Bonnie'sdead, she gets a tree stump in
the woods and they're likestanding around there talking
about how she helped them.
It was so ridiculous, showingme how much they cared about her
(20:24):
.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Yes, it is incredibly ridiculous because, like, what
are we doing?
But just like you said andthat's another thing about the
Black trauma stuff that I reallyget tired of it's just like we
have whole other lives, likeeveryone has their bits of
trauma and things that happen.
Like that's life.
Can we get some joy?
Like what is she into?
Let her have some joy.
Let her have a real boyfriendwho actually likes her and who's
(20:53):
not going to ask her to die forhim and will realize if she
does die, or whatever it is.
You know what I mean.
Like let her have some fun withDamon.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Like what, why, why, anyway, yeah, caroline and all
the other characters got so muchbetter, like they had multiple
relationship partners andrelationship arcs and she didn't
.
And then even the way theycreated the character, like they
would talk about her ancestor,who was Catherine, who is
(21:23):
Elena's doppelgangers.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
In the past.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Catherine was the vampire that changed the boys
into vampires and she looks justlike Elena, but they would
always talk about Bonnie'sancestor being Catherine's
handmaid.
We're talking about pre-slaverytime.
She was her slave, so thishandmaid and shit.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
I've never seen that.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Really, that's what you got.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Well, were they trying to do?
Was the Civil War going on atthat time I can't remember the
dates, or was it just ended?
Speaker 2 (21:56):
There were scenes where it was during the Civil
War.
So this was like show was likewould dive into pre-Civil War
and then some during theflashbacks.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
OK, because I remember, like she's like riding
in the carriage with her, and Iwas like she would not be
dressed like that.
Riding in the carriage with her, she's her slave.
Like let's be real.
So that kind of stuff too.
Like it's just like, oh, let'sjust glaze over this fact, so
that kind of stuff too.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Like it's just like, oh, let's just glaze over this
fact.
And it's like, on one hand,you're glorifying it with the
Gone, with the Wind parties andyou know all these flashbacks to
the period where you're onlyshowing what you think is the
grandeur, but you're not showingthe other side of the coin, but
then, on the other hand, you'reignoring it because you're not
calling her a slave, you'recalling her a handmaiden, you
(22:41):
know what I mean, or whatever.
And then not addressing it inany way, shape or form, but
constantly murdering your onlyBlack lead to save the white
people around her.
And I loved how True Blood intheir episodes, early episodes.
(23:02):
Tara got right to that, whenSuki and her vampire are sitting
there Straight out.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Did you own any slaves?
Exactly that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
And that would be what I would want to know.
You know what I mean.
You were around 100 years ago.
What were you?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
doing.
Right and everyone's actinglike, like.
Oh, he seems like a very kindgentleman, okay, but you were
around during this time, soexactly, yeah so at least they
took that on more head-on andthey um addressed racism.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
The elephant in the room with that character.
I liked that about tara.
Um, I found tara amusing thing.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
I always had a love-hate relationship With the
way they characterized Tara,because I loved okay, we've got
this strong black womancharacter and she's funny and
great and strong, but at thesame time she's still this angry
black woman trope and the bestfriend to all the white people
(24:01):
trope, um, and in comparison tolafayette um, who's fun, loving
and everything, it's just like.
Why does she have to be againlike the angry black woman um
that always annoyed me with hercharacter?
Um, but at the same time, likeyou said, she had backstory.
(24:21):
We know about her family.
She's an integral part of theweave, of everything that's
going on in the characters,especially like in the first
several seasons, um, when shebecomes a vampire, things get a
little weird with her um, and Iwas very unhappy with how they
killed her off um, butparticularly because because she
(24:43):
was a main, integral characterfrom the beginning, if we're
going to kill a character likethat, it needs to be epic, it
needs to be something remarkableand like she was killed off
screen and it's just like waitwhat?
It's very disrespectful um, andI can't remember, but I feel
(25:04):
like there was something goingon with rutina wellesley in that
show at the same time.
I don't know if she wanted tobe off the show or I can't.
I can't fully remember, sodon't quote me on that.
So it felt like the peoplemaking the show did that on
purpose as a disrespect to herand I literally stopped watching
the show at that moment and Istill haven't watched that last
(25:26):
season because I was so annoyedand it's just like, really, this
is what we're going to do.
Especially after she wasalready not in as many episodes.
They started focusing so muchon all these other random
characters that they startedbringing in towards like the
second half of the the show run.
(25:48):
Um, she wasn't around as much,um, and I kind of felt like her
storylines weren't all thatgreat, and then you just you
kill her off screen randomly.
It's just weird.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
It's something you don't do.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
That's exactly how they did and they it was the
opposite of the vampiregalleries in that way, because
with Bonnie it was around seasonsix, that you know when.
When Elena left the showbecause the actress left, then
they started oh well, we've doneeverything for six years with
the other people.
Let's see what we can do withBonnie, who we've ignored all
this time.
Let's start giving her somestoryline.
And yeah, with Tara it was theother way, the opposite.
(26:25):
She started off with moresubstance and then, like you
said, she kind of faded into theabyss and they just killed her.
But, like I said, I like theway they tackled racism.
They didn't ignore it in thatshow.
The vampire diaries ignored itso much that damon was a
confederate vampire, so he was aconfederate soldier, but racism
was never addressed.
The founders parade and otherlike dances and events they
(26:50):
would do ignored blackoppression and slavery and shit
like that.
But oh, let's glorify withthese lovely dances makes me
think of the dang plantationweddings that people do like.
Yes, plantations were for us.
What?
Speaker 3 (27:05):
in the world um, I don't remember who, was it just
scott, or somebody who was justlike you?
Don't see people gettingmarried at auschwitz so like,
what are we doing?
Like I don't understand whypeople don't hold that in a
similar way.
It's just really wild.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Right In Germany you wouldn't see any statues to
Hitler, but here we have statuesto people who fought to enslave
people yeah and they're tryingto put them back.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
It's crazy, it's insane and that's another reason
what you were talking aboutearlier.
I have a problem with peoplesaying about we're looking at
this with a modern lens.
It's just like these issueswere already here.
People were just ignoring it,so it's not really modern.
It's just like we're justfinally at some point being able
to shine a light on it, thoughthat light might be turning off
(27:56):
again soon, uh, or now, but yeahyeah, I think um, I think what
both shows got wrong was thattara and bonnie were both
treated as more disposable thantheir white carol the parts and
that's, and as a as a writer asa writer, but then also as a tv
(28:17):
viewer I almost go into shows ormovies, knowing I mean that
used to be the joke about horrormovies too, where it's like the
black person always gets killedfirst.
It was just like you know, we'rejust there as props and not
people, and I actually saw thatrecently on a TV show where it's
a show I won't name the show,but in general it has a show.
(28:41):
I won't name the show, but ingeneral it has a diverse cast um
.
But the beginning of the recentseason I saw all these.
There was more diversity and Iwas like, oh, I've never seen
all this diversity in thisparticular setting in the
previous seasons, only to killthose people off, um and have
them be traitors, and it's justjust like why?
It's just like, oh, they'regoing to let's pretend we're
(29:03):
even upping the diversity, butnow these people are disposable
and they're quote, bad.
So it's just like you're justdoing the same stuff up the
diversity correctly, um, at thattime.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Hopefully we've evolved more now, but like um,
for example, bonnie's characterwas like if you ever listen to
um donald clayton, she talksabout painting the roses red and
that's what bonnie's characterfelt like like a picture of a
rose painted red, not like anactual 3d rose, because it was
like you have this Black witch,but her magic systems were
European-based and there's noneof the cultural touchstones that
(29:46):
make the fact that she's Blackrelevant to the story at all.
Really, you know what I mean.
They did make her ancestor,catherine's handmaiden or
whatever.
But it's not like she's usingany Black magic systems.
You're not seeing a lot ofBlack culture, like when she's
in her house with what's beingreflected or what they're eating
, or you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
There's, yeah, no nuance to the character in that
way I noticed that when, um,there was a scene and someone
was asking her if she hadrelatives in salem, and she was
like I do, and I was like whywould her relatives be from
salem?
Like when african-american,afamerican, african history has
its own like mysticalbackstories and, like you know,
(30:23):
those are so like, why not usethose systems instead of the
European?
Like to me, like I didn't, likeI said I didn't even fully
watch that show, but I caughtthat, um, and it was just a
short conversation and I wasjust like why the South has so
much rich history and all ofthat, that's where her powers
would come from, most likely.
That's what makes more sense.
(30:45):
So, yeah, exactly, you just dosome Googling, it's not that
hard to find.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Exactly, and I think a way for writers who are
currently trying to write thesescenes to avoid some of the
pitfalls is, like you said, asimple Google search.
Do some research, get somereaders of color who can flag
things for you, cause none of usare perfect.
You know we can all putsomething in there that might
accidentally offend somebody.
(31:14):
But to try to avoid it and, youknow, give your characters
nuance, make them whole people,and if your character is the bad
guy, then have somerepresentation of your story of
a black person or a person ofcolor who is not the bad guy.
That way it doesn't look likethe only image you're selling is
the negative.
You know what I mean.
(31:35):
It doesn't even have to be amajor character, at least a
smaller character, but just sothere's representation of the
positive aspect there tooexactly, and I also thought it
was funny, but not in like afully haha, way.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Well, one of the vampires I think she was like
newly turned and the first twopeople she kills are black
people that was caroline and oneof, and I was just like nobody
said anything one of them wasthe dude that Bonnie liked.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
But, we're supposed to pity her and not the poor
Black dude she murdered at thecarnival for nothing.
He's just trying to exist.
She eats him and we're supposedto pity her.
Crazy and Caroline's characterto me was so obnoxious in the
beginning of the show.
I don't know how she went fromthat to having such a major lead
in the show, because she wasprobably one of my least
(32:24):
favorites.
I didn't hate her.
Toward the end they made hermore well-rounded.
She was definitely not my fave.
Who was your fave from?
Speaker 3 (32:33):
what you saw.
From what I saw like I said, Ididn't watch the whole show.
From what I did see, I didn'tsee a lot of Bonnie.
Other characters I saw.
I don't even remember what hisname was the nicer vampire was
an interesting character.
(32:55):
I didn't really.
Honestly, it was definitely ashow I didn't watch back in the
day.
Even now, honestly, it wasdefinitely a show I wouldn't
have.
Well, I didn't watch it back inthe day and even now I got kind
of annoyed with it and it'sjust like this is kind of boring
.
It's just like, oh, can we get?
I'm done with these characters.
Is there anybody else on thisshow?
But at the same time it's I cansay it was written for the
(33:22):
channel, like the channel thatit was on.
It fit into that, so it waswhat it was supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, and as a younger person who liked
speculative fiction and likedfantasy, there wasn't a lot that
included us at that time, rightyeah?
So that's why, even withBonnie's flaws, it was like yay,
a black witch, you know, yeahand um, did you?
Speaker 3 (33:49):
we didn't know.
Did you watch the new?
We're talking about vampires,but did you watch the newer
version of charms at all?
Speaker 2 (33:55):
I did yep, I watched it.
To me it wasn't that muchdifferent than the original
Charmed.
I think they stuck with thesame format.
They did infuse a little moreculture in the characters and
stuff like that.
It was sad, though, that Ididn't feel like the show was
given as much of a chance,because some of the original
(34:18):
actresses spoke out against itand were not liking it, so it
didn't get as much support, butto me it felt very Charm
Reboot-ish.
It felt very much the sameformula.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
We haven't really talked about Louis.
Oh yeah, that's what you justsaid, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
So what were your thoughts on Louis?
Speaker 3 (34:40):
It's interesting because Interview with a Vampire
.
The movie was one of myfavorite movies back then.
I thought it was done reallywell.
I liked, in terms of vampires,anne Rice's version of vampires
because they were sexier andmore palatable than back in the
day day, the ugly one thatturned into bats and that sort
(35:00):
of thing, um, but and at thattime like I had nobody it's
rooted in like, like um medievaleuropean times or whatever, um,
but I really love this newversion with Louie in New
(35:21):
Orleans, like they cause I meanthey were in New Orleans before
anyway but like to have himrooted there as a black man and
the way they, like we know, theway they've written his
backstory.
They don't shy away as to whatlife was like for Black people
at that time and how.
(35:43):
All of that, those experiencesas a Black person, racism, all
of that I'm forgetting my wordsbut informs who he is as a
person and then as a character.
Who he is as a person and thenas a character, um, and I love
(36:05):
that because you under, at leastI understand why he's making
certain choices or conflicted,like he's so conflicted, um,
leaving his family, and likethey're they're all still in the
same area, but like, especiallywhen he's a vampire now and he
can't really be around them, um,but he still wants to be
connected to them in some way.
Um just working with andfighting for people in his
(36:29):
community.
I want lots of things happen,as he just felt like an actual
person slash character and notjust some plot device.
Um, and I really appreciatethat some plot device and I
really appreciate that with thisseries and I have to say I've
only watched the first season, Ihaven't seen the other.
Were there three seasons?
I know there's at least two andI agree.
(36:54):
More of a haunted character.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Definitely.
I agree completely.
He's a primary protagonist.
His love life, his identity,everything's fully fleshed out
and it's central to the plot.
He's not just the off to theside person that comes in and
plays a magical Negro when theyneed someone to die to save
everyone else.
And I also like the way they'rebalanced with their portrayal,
(37:27):
whereas like in the first season, if you remember.
Louis was a pimp and that'swhere his wealth came from.
But then you have his family,who's more spiritual and who's
completely opposed to thatlifestyle.
So you're showing a balance.
You're not depicting, like all,black men as pimps kind of
thing, and I think with allcharacters might not be as
essential to do that, becausewith white people we have a
(37:48):
million different views ofwhiteness that we've seen in
stories in this country.
But with people of color,because there aren't as many
depictions and this might be theonly depiction someone sees.
I think it's important to havethat balance to where, if
somebody's going to be staunchlynegative, you should have at
least some representative ofthis is not the whole, because
this right look you're puttingtheir hand might be their only
(38:09):
view of blackness.
We don't know.
You know what I mean yeah,definitely, but I like that they
do the balance in that show.
I like that he has a love lifeand romantic pairings and just
depth really, you know yeah haveyou seen um seasons past?
Speaker 3 (38:36):
season one, yes, does that continue?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
It does.
Okay, it does.
I love the way they handle thechild vampire, claudia.
Yeah, as well.
Her death was sad, though thatwas heartbreaking, but I like
the the.
To me that the thing about agood remake is you want to have
(39:06):
the elements of the original sothat we get the reminiscing, the
fond memory, but you want tohave enough of a twist to make
it fresh and exciting andengaging on your own, and I feel
like they give that yeah, I canagree with that, just even from
what I saw um, oh my gosh.
(39:26):
And when I was complaining aboutBonnie, one thing else I forgot
.
So, like I said, they kill hergrand, her father's murdered in
front of her, and never is sheallowed to really fully grieve
on screen.
Right, then they make her theanchor to the other side, so for
anybody to die they have toliterally pass through her and
she feels their death.
Oh God, they just tormentedthis character forever.
(39:49):
And then, when she finally getsa love scene, when she, her and
Jeremy are hooking up, thatcan't even be a ah, I found love
romantic moment, because thensomebody has to die and pass
through her and it becomes apainful thing for her.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Oh my God.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Every way they could abuse this girl.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Let a Black girl be happy Jesus.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
You know what I mean.
And with Louis, like I said, hehas his ups, he has his downs,
he has his painful moments, butyou never feel like he's not a
fully fleshed out, realizedcharacter in those moments he
has all of the things that hehas.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
I wonder if the same could still be said if the
character was a Black woman,because, for whatever reason, I
feel like the writing is quotedifficult or whatever when it
comes to black women as this,where some sort of like extra
creature that's not human,that's so hard to write about or
write for, and it's just likewhy it it annoys me so much and
(40:57):
yet still not hiring the peoplewho need to be in the writer's
room to make sure that doesn'thappen.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Exactly, that's true.
That's a good point, that'sdefinitely a good point.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
And when they do they're usually lower on the run
, so they can't really pushforward any real hard
suggestions.
They just have to do whatthey're told.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
So yeah, I like that.
Louis wasn't a paint the rosesred character, he's a creole
black man and then they madethat central to the story, like
um, there are scenes where hehas more agency.
Um, I'm trying to think of theexample.
There's like one scene inparticular where he has more
agency.
I'm trying to think of theexample.
(41:45):
There was like one scene inparticular where he's talking to
this white man and he's Creole.
So maybe because he's not I'msensing but I didn't just
freshly rewatch this, so give mesome grace if I'm wrong but to
me it felt like there were someplaces that he can get into
because he's creole, so he hadthe lighter skin thing for him
going on, but he's still black.
(42:06):
So then there were limitationsdefinitely to his freedom, and I
remember there was oneconversation with him and this
man where the man was basicallylike pining for the days when he
would not have to, when hewould not be in here and he
wouldn't have to engage with him, kind of thing, and so they
don't like shy away from theracism.
I remember there was a scenewhere there's like a poker game
(42:26):
in the first episode and Louisis talking to him telepathically
and Louis is basically like youknow, I hate the way they treat
you and your people in thistime.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
You mean Lestat, lestat.
Excuse me, I'm saying Lestat.
I mean.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
I'm saying Louis Lestat, excuse me, I'm saying
Lestat.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
I mean I'm saying Louis Lestat is telepathically
telling these things to.
Louis.
Lestat, by the way, was myfavorite character in the books
hands down.
Damon was my favorite in thevampire series After Bonnie.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
I always liked the bad boy.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
I don't know why, but yeah, but they, like I said,
tackled that head on.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
I like that yeah, because it would be stupid for
them not to.
I mean you can't, you can't seta story in this time frame, in
that location and not address it, um, and have this main
character be like you.
I mean you can try, but it'sgonna be stupid, right, you know
(43:24):
?
I mean like why, allow yourcreative project to look stupid
when you just address it likethese things happened.
They still are happening, um,so, which makes your story still
relevant to what's going on now, like these times.
So it's just like let's stoppretending that these things
didn't happen, aren't happeningbecause they did and they are,
(43:46):
um, exactly, and I personallythink the creators and writers
look smarter to just address itthan to try and like shy and
skirt away from it.
That's stupid very true.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
I liked, too, that they played with a different
time period.
For example, the vampirediaries didn't have to glorify
the pre-slavery years In aninterview with a vampire.
That's not the time they're in.
You know, if they're vampires,they've lived over 100 years.
You could have picked any timeon that spectrum to start your
(44:19):
story in, but you chose the oneyou wanted to glorify and that
is what that is, um.
What was also interesting, um,is the behind the scenes
treatment of some of theseactors, um, like, uh, retina or
retina excuse me, wesley.
Um, you know, the retina, whoplayed tara thornton, got a lot
(44:40):
of hate and racism from fans,like Ratina or Ratuna excuse me,
wesley.
Ratina, who played TaraThornton, got a lot of hate and
racism from fans online and shefelt like there was a lack of
protection for her character'slegacy in some ways.
Yeah, and then there's thiswhole thing online with how Pat
(45:01):
Graham was treated by the fandomand also by the showrunners.
Like, if you watch interviews,they would interrupt her a lot
and she would talk about wantingthe relationship with her and
dave and wanting these thingsand that you know, kind of being
shot down and and one time shejoked that the writers wanted to
(45:22):
kill her off but they mighthave been afraid of fan backlash
because she was beloved.
And again, she was the onlyBlack lead on the show and in
some interviews you see herbeing ignored by her castmates
Wow.
So there's a lot of interestingstuff.
And the Boy Meets World theonly black girl on that show.
If you watch interviews of hertalking about that time, she
(45:44):
talks about the same thing, likeexperiencing some racism on the
set and not feeling like shewas being treated very well.
So that has to be interestingbeing the only on the set and
experiencing those things, Imean it's crazy Nicole Berry on
Sleepy Hollow on the set andexperiencing those things.
Speaker 3 (46:01):
I mean it's crazy.
Nicole Berry on Sleepy Hollowhad I mean, they treated her
poorly as well.
I mean it's just like this isyour lead, who's doing an
awesome job.
People are watching the showfor these people and you're
treating them like shit, like Idon't know Exactly.
Speaker 2 (46:28):
And I guess the lesson and the takeaway is that
black viewers, like all viewers,we want well-rounded cast.
We want to see ourselvesreflected, just like you do, but
we want fully realizeddepictions.
We don't want to just be theshallow best friend who has no
life outside of saving you.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
We want to be able to only point out existing yeah,
and it's like, is that betterthan like, I don't know, like I
think about like some othergroups who just aren't as like,
represented much at all, becausewe talk about the Black
characters, but whereas theAsian vampires and the Latino
(47:03):
vampires Latino vampires, allthat, though they did have.
But anyway, I was trying tothink back on True Blood, but
it's just like what's worse.
Maybe it's not even like toeven have that conversation.
Worse, maybe it's not even liketo even have that conversation.
(47:23):
Um, is it worse to be thesparable character that's there
to die for everybody else, or isit better to not be there at
all?
I don't know good point.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
Um, that's why I said she crawled so tara could walk
and tara walked so louis couldrun.
This would be a fully fleshedout character because, you're
right, the representation wasn'tthere.
So at the time, you know, ifthat was what you're interested
in, you took it because that waswhat was available exactly yeah
, and all this wasn't that longago, this would be talking what
(47:51):
less than 20 years?
yeah, um yeah, between and Ilove my white friends, but I'm
not going to die for y'allrepeatedly.
I'm sorry and you're not myfriends if you expect me to.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
I'm sorry y'all, but if you know any.
Black people.
It's not happening.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
See you next time.
Because in reality, the sisterwould be the first one running
in the horror movie.
It'd be like, oh hell, no,what's that Exactly?
Michael Myers is coming.
I'm out of here.
Speaker 3 (48:24):
Goodbye, walking through the house Like who's
there.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Yes, I'm not in the woods investigating shit, I'm
out the door.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
You know funny story I went to a haunted house with
some of my friends like severalyears back.
Like you get to the end andlike you know, like when you're
waiting in line outside you seepeople being chased out with
chainsaws, with these guysrunning after them with
chainsaws.
So you know, that's the end atsome point.
So I'm going through thishaunted house with my friends
(48:55):
and we get to that point and theguy, so there's like's like
this doorway and the guy withthe chainsaw is standing there
and, for whatever reason, hewalks away.
So I'm like, okay, here's atime to go.
So like I walk through the doorand all of a sudden I hear the
chainsaw rev up again and I'mout like I don't look for my
(49:17):
friend.
I don't turn around, I'm justout and like it was like a bit
of a maze too, but someone likeI was running so fast and then I
just like bolted out the door.
Meanwhile they my friends werelike behind me and he ends up
chasing them out, but they werelike we turned our heads next
thing.
We just see you.
(49:37):
I don't need to hear or knowanything else.
Dude's got a chainsaw and it'son.
Goodbye.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Years ago.
Years ago, I was probably in mylate teens, early 20s.
I was working at McDonald's asa cashier and the power went out
and my manager had the brightidea to lock the door.
So if anybody took everything,anything like all the suspects
would remain.
I don't know what he wasthinking, but he locks the door,
the power's out.
When the lights come back on,they can't find me.
(50:09):
Why my black ass was hiding inthe closet.
I was a cashier.
I'm not going to be standing infront of the money in the dark
with strange spirits.
I'm sorry, exactly, you're nothitting me to get to the jury.
Y'all don't pay me enough todie.
I was in the closet, yeah.
Lights came back on there tofind me with the brooms hiding.
No, no, no, not me, not today.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
I was up to a hero Like why would you not just let
them leave?
Yes, that was insane.
I don't know why he even didthat.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
What was he thinking?
And then the same thing, asimilar thing happened one time
at um home depot when I used towork there when I was young I
worked many jobs when I was ayoung person and home depot
stayed open.
The power was out and they hadlike the, the emergency backup,
the dimmer lights, and they hadus like walking people through
the aisles with flashlights sothey could continue shopping and
(51:03):
then people cashiers aresupposed to literally with a
calculator calculate what thetotals were and just take cash
only.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
It was crazy I had to do that.
I worked at a movie theater inhigh school when the power went
out and we had to do things withthe calculator.
Well, at first we didn't evenhave the calculators and it was
just like do it in your head orwhatever.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
I'm just like what?
Speaker 3 (51:26):
So I'd be like oh, it's about $20.
But then you couldn't even openup the drawer.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
I feel so sorry for the little Chick-fil-A kids.
You see them standing outside.
Oh, I know right, it can becold or whatever.
They have them standing outside.
I'm like, oh, I remember beingyoung, but there are other jobs,
maybe you don't have to freeze,yeah.
Find something indoors whereyou can hide in the closet.
Speaker 3 (51:55):
Hide in the closet.
Well, at least if they'reoutside they could run away.
Yeah, that's true.
Not wishing anyone anyone, butyeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
So any final words you want to leave people on this
topic who are thinking aboutwriting characters in the Black
speculative space or in thespeculative space including any
like if you're writingcharacters that are outside of
your cultural zone, or whateveryou want to call it.
Speaker 3 (52:27):
Do some research.
Um, you know, talk to people,even like I'm writing a story or
um, there are some asiancharacters and I know that I'm
gonna reach out to some people.
Read this.
Do I have the culture right?
Um, you know, especially theway people speak in culture.
So if you have characters goinghome and talking to their
(52:49):
families, they're most likelygoing to talk differently um
than they would in public spaceswith other people.
Um, so, just be conscious andaware of those things.
So you, you know you're notoffending people, but also just
you have better characters andwell-rounded characters.
(53:11):
Even if you're doing fantasyand creating other beings, they
still need to be rounded beings,you know.
But you know, I just just don'tbe lazy.
Don't be lazy writers.
Speaker 2 (53:31):
Very true, Very true.
Like she said, get people toread.
You can even look intosensitivity reading.
I've done sensitivity readingsbefore.
Reach out to me, ask my rates.
Other people do them.
You know what I mean.
Reach out to sensitivityreaders.
Sensitivity reading gets a badrap a lot of times.
People want to look at it ascensorship, but really it can
(53:55):
help enrich your story becauseit doesn't have to all be this
is wrong, this is bad.
Sometimes it's just helpingimprove it.
it might be a holiday meal andyou're serving the wrong thing
you know exactly they can pointout the cultural nuances and
touchstones that make thecharacters feel well-rounded and
not like a rose painted red andum sweet potato pie, not
(54:17):
pumpkin.
Exactly, Exactly.
And to me, even if you'resomeone who doesn't care about
hurting people with harmfuldepictions, to me it just seems
like a common sense thing to doto not want to offend people who
might buy future books.
You don't want to offend awhole audience of book buyers.
(54:45):
You want people to buy yourbooks, exactly yes.
So you might want to havethoughtful representation.
Have representation, but justhave it well-rounded and
thoughtful.
Speaker 3 (54:50):
Yeah, and then nobody's telling you that you
are racist or a bad person,because they're trying to help
you make it better.
It's just learning.
It's just you have to think ofit as education.
What education?
And like we all need it, causenone of us are all knowing about
every culture and every type ofperson and religion and
everything that's out there.
(55:11):
So it's you want to do that,it's fine.
Speaker 2 (55:16):
It's no one saying that you're bad.
Yeah, exactly, and I myself inthe past I told you this before.
Remember one of my very firstthings I wrote.
I had a beta reader read it andthey told me that it was like
misogynistic, and as a woman Iwas so embarrassed.
But as a kid who grew up onPepper Rain the movie where
(55:40):
they're throwing the lady of thedumpster at hip-hop music there
probably was a lot ofinternalized misogyny in there,
that I and learn.
So while it was embarrassing asa woman, it was also a learning
experience and that was likeokay, wow, let me look at this
with a different lens and thenrealize where I can grow you
know what I mean and do betterand thank God for that because
(56:00):
I'd rather be embarrassedprivately by you telling me that
I can improve something and becaught with my pants down
publicly out here looking crazyin the world you have to stop
the big scandals and peopletaking your book off the shelf
ahead of time.
Exactly, I don't want to beembarrassed publicly, I don't
want to be a hashtag.
Yeah, so yeah, we all learn, weall grow.
(56:22):
The shows were good for theirtime and the more modern one
obviously was more modern in itsperspective.
All right, we appreciate youguys for joining us as we took
you on another writer's journey.
Have a great day, happy writing.
Happy writing.
Speaker 4 (56:54):
That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD
Mayer.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
jdmayercom.
That's jdmayercom.
(57:14):
While you're there, join JD'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
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