April 12, 2025 • 59 mins
Ever wondered how a ghost story can turn rejections into a celebrated book launch? Join us on Craft Chat Chronicles as we sit down with award-winning YA and children's picture book author, Sarah Glenn Marsh. Hear about Sarah's inspiring journey from a book-loving teenager encouraged by a high school teacher to an accomplished author with Penguin's support. She shares how a suggestion from her partner led to the creation of her successful ghost story, "The Girls Are Never Gone," and provides invaluable insights into the power of perseverance and connecting with young readers.
Have you ever thought about what goes on behind the scenes of traditional book publishing? Sarah takes us inside the collaborative process, sharing heartwarming moments like Penguin's surprise champagne brunch for her book "Reign of the Fallen." We also get an inside look at her latest middle-grade project, "How to Spot a Fairy: A Field Guide to Sprites, Spriggans, and More," inspired by Irish folklore. From spooky illustrations to blending mythology with art, Sarah's world-building tips and advice on creating a compelling magic system will leave you inspired.
Creating memorable villains, crafting captivating first pages, and developing inclusive middle-grade characters—Sarah covers it all. She delves into her research methods and the importance of sensitivity reading for accurate representation. Learn from her experiences on how to avoid the common pitfalls in storytelling and what current trends are shaping children's and YA literature today. Plus, get a sneak peek into her transition to adult fiction and her new spicy fantasy romance, "We Could Be Antiheroes," all while celebrating the supportive relationship with her agent. Don't miss this episode packed with practical advice, heartwarming stories, and insider tips from one of the most creative minds in the industry!
Keywords:
podcast, Bestselling Author Tips, Picture books, Young Adult Fiction, Crafting Bestsellers, Publishing Industry Insights, Writing Strategies, Author Success Stories, Writing Career, Writing Craft, Narrative Development, Book Marketing Strategies, Creative Writing Techniques, NY Times Bestselling Process, Author Interviews, Book Promotion, Literary Agents, Real Life Experiences, Publishing, Writing Tips, Award Winning Author, Sarah Glenn Marsh
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
writing journey.
(00:26):
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmyallcom.
That's jdmyallcom.
J. D. Myall (00:36):
On episode six of Craft Chat Chronicles, we have
YA author and children's picturebook author, sSarah Glenn Marsh
.
All right, everybody, welcometo tonight's Craft Chat.
Tonight we have the honor ofhosting Sarah Glenn Marsh.
She's an award-winning authorknown for her best-selling and
enthralling novels like andbeloved children's picture books
(00:56):
like Nita's Big World.
Tonight, Sarah will offervaluable advice on creating
picture books, talk aboutwriting craft and give you some
tips for making fabulousfantasies.
Welcome again, Sarah, Thank you.
Can we start with you tellingeverybody a little bit about
your publishing journey?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (01:16):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So I you know, honestly,growing up I loved reading and
writing.
I was the kid who checked outmultiple.
I mean I would check out astack of books from the library
every week.
I was that kid.
I was a voracious reader.
Reading was what got me introuble growing up the most.
(01:39):
I would get in trouble at homewith my grandparents or my
parents for reading at the tablebecause it was what I preferred
doing, and I would get introuble in school for reading
under my desk.
But the thing is I was gettingstraight A's but they were still
mad.
That's fine, whatever.
Um, so I was.
(01:59):
I was that kid who, like always, literally had my my head in a
book.
Um, that kid who, like always,literally had my head in a book.
But nobody ever really talked tome about writing as a career,
sort of the reality of that, howachievable it was.
I always considered authors tobe these like very mysterious,
unapproachable, distant figures,because how can you be one, I
(02:22):
don't know.
I mean this was a little pre Imean not too pre-internet, but
it was just a mysterious thingto me and I never had the
opportunity to like listen to apublished author and sort of
learn from them about what thatcareer looked like.
I took creative writing in highschool, absolutely loved it,
and I had a teacher who reallyencouraged me my creative
(02:43):
writing teacher and we'reactually still in touch.
She was a wonderful mentor andthe first person to kind of make
me think that there wassomething there with my writing
that might be a little differentor a little more, that I had to
look at something a littlespecial.
So I got.
(03:05):
I went to school, I went toUniversity of Mary Washington
and I got my master's inelementary education.
That was my background.
I wasn't thinking about being awriter, but while I was in that
program, my favorite professoractually she ran a literacy
specialization that I took partin, and so this was like an
(03:26):
extra piece to your degree.
It was like what you focused inon.
And of course, I pickedliteracy and she really inspired
me a love of children's picturebooks, and she was an
incredible professor.
She would actually readchildren's picture books in our
classes to like foster a genuineappreciation, and she brought
in authors and so for the firsttime I got to sort of connect
(03:47):
and see some of these peopleface to face.
And then on the other side ofit.
I was going into classroomsright working on my degree in
teaching, and I got to spend alot of time, especially helping
reluctant readers, which was myfavorite thing.
I remember reading with thislittle boy who was having a lot
of difficulties with havingstable figures at home and he
(04:10):
looked forward to reading withme every day after school before
he got called to walk home.
And you know, getting toconnect with kids through
stories was a really specialthing for me, that kind of
always stuck.
Special thing for me, that kindof always stuck.
So then I graduated, I waslooking for a teaching job and
my partner said to me you shouldreally write a book.
(04:31):
And I was like what do you mean?
Write a book?
He was like, well, pause thejob search, write a book.
And I was like that doesn'tsound like a great idea.
Thank you, I wouldn't.
I wouldn't know what to do.
Like, what do you mean write abook?
And he it was the strangestthing for him to say, because
he's not an avid reader himself,so he hadn't really like read
any of my writing.
(04:51):
And he was like, well, but youhave so many books and you read
so many books and I know you'lllove to write and he was like
try it.
Um, so while I had an attemptjob, I used their old computer
and wrote my first novel.
It was terrible, but I did sendit to agents and when I got
their rejections I was so madand when I get mad I get very
(05:15):
motivated.
I find anger is a fantasticmotivator.
So I was like you know what I'mgoing to show all of them?
I'm going to write somethingthat's so commercial that they
can't tell me no.
So I went back and I wrote asecond book.
I wrote a ghost story and ithad issues, but I actually the
funny thing is that ghost storyit was what got me my first
agent got me four offers ofrepresentation.
(05:37):
This was all within about a I'dsay like a six month period
back in like 2014.
And I signed with my agent thatbook.
We did not seek out publicationfor it right away, but much
later down the line it becameone of my books with Penguin the
girls are never gone.
I went back into that oldmanuscript, harvested the bones
of it and the things that Iloved and, you know, transformed
(06:00):
it into something else, and sothat story actually lives on.
All the characters are the same, same names, same setting.
But that was really how I gotstarted.
It was that second book and Ihad entered that book in a
contest.
While I was writing it, I waslucky enough to receive feedback
from a published author, susanDennard and again, leaning on
(06:21):
people who have that job and whohave that experience was
absolutely vital to meunderstanding how to do it,
because what she said these arethe conventions we use in
publishing and this is the waythat we do this.
It all clicked for me and Isaid, oh well, actually that's
not true.
I read her feedback and Ideleted my book off my laptop
and I put my laptop under thebed and I said I was never
(06:43):
writing again.
This lasted about two weeks.
I was in the shower and it hitme.
So about two weeks later I'm inthe shower and it hit me like a
ton of bricks how everythingshe said was true and how to fix
the whole novel based on heramazing feedback.
So I went in, I dug in and afterrevising it, I sought out
(07:04):
agents and I got agented prettymuch right away.
That is not usual.
I feel I was very fortunate andI learned a lot.
I'm now with my third agent.
There's a lot of turnover inpublishing, but I mean, really
I've learned with every agent.
I'm very happy I'm at JillGrinberg now and I'm very happy
(07:24):
I'm at Jill Grinberg now and I'mvery happy there and I'm
working across children's,middle grade, young adult and
also adult.
I also, in addition to my ownwork, I also do IP work,
intellectual property, meaningI've written for Crayola, I've
written for the Smithsonian,I've written for Star Wars and I
am currently writing forsomething, a popular franchise,
(07:47):
but it's not yet announced, so Ishould probably stop myself.
That is the gist of mypublishing journey.
So far, I have over 20 titlespublished to my backlist.
I work primarily with Penguin,but with other publishers as
well, and I have several booksin various stages of contracts
and publication right now.
So I love that.
J. D. Myall (08:07):
What do you think you did right that helped you
break into the publishingindustry?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (08:11):
You know, the number one thing I think, aside
from from just being a veryavid reader, I think it was my
ability to connect with othersand to take feedback, Because
one thing that I think may notbe as apparent from the outside
with publishing is just howcollaborative it is every step
(08:36):
of the way.
So let's say, you've writtenthis book that you absolutely
love.
You're going to have to changeit.
You're going to change thewhole thing with your agent.
And then you're like, oh gosh,that was so much work, that was
so harrowing.
I've changed my whole novelwith my agent.
It's not what I started with.
I feel some kind of way aboutthat.
Well, you can't feel too muchabout it because you're going to
(08:58):
have to change it with youreditor probably three or four
times.
And then the amount of peoplewho work on a book.
I've seen a figure quotedsomewhere.
I don't want to say this asabsolute point of fact because I
don't have the quote in frontof me, but it's something like
70 people from sales, marketing,editing and all the different
departments will touch atraditionally published book
(09:20):
before it's actually on theshelves.
So there's this whole team ofprofessionals looking over your
work.
You've really got to be open tofeedback and collaboration and
to look at it as a collaborativeeffort.
And then, at the same time, Isay that and I think that is
what I did right.
And yet the other piece is youhave to be able to advocate for
(09:42):
yourself when the time is right.
That is something else that Ihave really learned along the
way the power of advocating foryourself, because you have to
know when the feedback isaltering your story too much.
You have to know when to standup for yourself when something
isn't sitting right in your gut,and how to speak up in a way
that gets you listened to andnot shut down in a way that gets
(10:07):
you listened to and not shutdown.
J. D. Myall (10:10):
I love that.
What was the?
Surprising?
Well, that's a great question.
I would say something that wasreally fun or it was a really
cute surprise.
I went up.
So when my book Reign of theFallen was about to be published
(10:31):
, I went up to New York to meetwith my editor and we had a
really nice conversation.
She and I were good friends.
She's since moved on from theindustry and I miss her a ton.
She's a great person.
We were very good friends.
I came up, we had a nice time.
She let me pick out books fromthe shelves of yet to be
published titles at Penguin,which was really fun.
(10:53):
But then she was like we'regoing to go downstairs for a
minute and we went.
We rode the elevator down to thePenguin building several floors
and there was a room and it wasall set up and they had
decorated it to match with theReign of the Fallen book cover
and we had a surprise champagnebrunch and everyone from Penguin
(11:14):
came down and the head of myimprint gave a big toast and you
know it was.
It was very surprising and very, very sweet and just such a
surreal moment of having put inthe work and seeing it touch all
these different people.
That was incredibly special,and likewise the turnout for the
Reign of the Fallen launch.
(11:35):
I had a reader flying fromMexico.
I would not fly from Mexico tomeet myself, let me tell you
what and so it was verysurprising and very, very
surreal, that whole experience.
And you know, my takeaway fromthat actually from that
surprising, wonderful experienceis I don't actually need I
(11:57):
don't need champagne brunch andI don't need frills and I don't
need to be anyone's darling whenit comes to my work, but what I
do need is an enthusiasticresponsive supportive publisher.
what's the story behind the story, Can you
Sarah Glenn Marsh (12:18):
Current?
I have so many differentcurrent things going on on, let
me see.
So right now this one's beenannounced.
I just did a book called how toSpot a Fairy a Field Guide to
Sprites, spriggans and More, andso how to Spot a Fairy is a
compendium of fairy folklore.
(12:39):
This was an incredibly funproject.
This was actually this startedas IP, intellectual property, so
a publisher had an idea to do afolklore series and they
approached me and asked if Iwould be interested.
My own background I am Irish.
My father's family is from atown called Kersivine, so
Kersivine is in South Kerry.
(12:59):
It's a town of about a thousandpeople, but I love it.
I think it's a really specialplace.
It's out near the skelligislands where they filmed, uh,
star wars, so folks may knowthat, and um, that's where I'm
from and there is a a very richculture, rich history that I
grew up with, surroundingfairies.
Um, there are folks over there,especially out in the
(13:21):
countryside and especially inrural places like carrie, who
still believe in fairies and andI mean that belief is like very
much alive and present, uh, towhere you can almost feel like
you are somewhere where magicexists or like that is possible
and people fear and respect it.
Um, so when I got asked to do acompendium of fairy folklore um
(13:43):
, it's for a middle gradeaudience I felt like I was
absolutely the right person todo a compendium of fairy
folklore.
It's for a middle grade audience.
I felt like I was absolutelythe right person to do it.
You know, kids don't likecutesy fairies and I think that
because of my Irish background Ibrought to it a healthy respect
and fear of how horrible thesethings can actually be that I
think kids will find fascinatingbut tempered with like, not too
(14:05):
scary and awful, if that makessense.
I'm a mom of a two year oldlittle girl and so I do also
have like that, that momsensibility of like walking the
line of like what is too much.
So that book I got to delve intolike fairy legends from around
the world, um, they, the termfairy is primarily like a very
(14:29):
western european, very localized, like the uk, ireland and wales
concept, but um, I took it andgave it a more like global view,
which was really fun to make itaccessible for kids around the
world.
Um, and I got to help choosethe illustrator.
Her name is Lilla, she's fromEastern Europe and her
(14:49):
illustrations are like they'revery spooky.
They've got that proper senseof fairy or like you are have a
healthy fear of them, and thewhole book is.
It's like an art book, so it'sfilled with mythology but also
art.
There are like pull out mapsand stuff and I this thing is
brilliant.
I just saw a final, like afinal look through, um, I think
(15:13):
like two weeks ago, and okayedit to go to the printer.
So, uh, that'll be out thisfall and I'm really excited
about it.
Do you usually get to pick yourown, illustrator?
gtyou know what.
So that really depends on thequality of a couple of things,
like it depends on your agent.
My agent always tries toadvocate for me to have as much
(15:35):
rights as possible, and thatincludes illustration rights,
insofar as having input, howit's typically worked.
So there have been a few dealspicture book deals I've had, or
things that involve art wherethey pick someone for me and
they're just like this is who'sillustrating it, and I'm like,
oh, that's news to me, okay.
Other times, however,especially with my agent
(15:58):
advocating, I'll get to look atportfolios for, say, like their
top three choices and say I wantyou to approach this person,
like this feels right to me, andthen this is my second choice
In the case of how to Spot aFairy.
That was how that was done.
Lola was my first pick and I waslike I really really need you
guys to get her for this projectand it's not announced yet, but
(16:22):
probably there are going to be.
It's probably a series, thereare probably going to be more of
these books and more art andit's probably a whole concept.
So, um, I'm really lookingforward to seeing more of what
she does.
I've actually maybe seen somesketches for a second, something
that's going to follow, so whatare the essential elements of a
good picture book?
J. D. Myall (16:42):
What are the essential elements of a good
picture ?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (16:44):
cThat is That a great question.
So picture books I always tellpeople they're actually harder
to write than novels, whichsounds weird, and I know, of
course novels take longer, butpicture books, oh my gosh.
(17:06):
Nowadays kids attention spansare really short and parents are
tired at night when they'rereading to their kids.
So, like the ideal length of apicture book, you're looking at
500 to 700 words.
That is not a lot of space.
That is very small.
That is a few pages at most,and in those 500 words you have
to have an entire character arc.
You have to introduce your maincharacter.
They have to have a problem.
There's a story problem, theyhave to try to resolve it.
(17:26):
You have to introduce your maincharacter.
They have to have a problem.
There's a story problem, theyhave to try to resolve it.
And then you have yourresolution and your denouement
and wrap up.
You have 500 words.
That is very, very, verydifficult, and so what ends up
happening is every single wordhas to carry so much weight.
I myself am a picture bookwriter, I am not a picture book
(17:47):
illustrator, and so for me, I'dsay one of the elements of a
good picture book text isactually keeping that in mind
when I write a picture book, Iam writing half the story and so
I think that's a really goodelement of the text is it's
telling half of the story,because I'm literally letting
the illustrator carry the otherhalf.
(18:07):
I need to make that text openenough to where they are also
telling the story and that theirillustrations are adding detail
and depth to what is happeningis a very difficult thing.
Not only to compress a wholestory into 500 words and make it
satisfying, but also to knowthat somebody else is going to
(18:30):
be telling the story alongsideyou and to leave room for them
to have creative freedom also.
That is an art.
I think picture books are very,very challenging.
You know things like when wetalk about elements of a great
picture book.
It used to be that rhyme wasvery popular.
I've seen that like come and gotime and again.
I wouldn't necessarily say andthat a great picture book has to
(18:51):
rhyme.
But I would say that every wordhas to carry weight and that a
good picture book text allowsfor the illustrations to carry
the story.
J. D. Myall (19:01):
I love that.
Since you brought up fairiesearlier, let's get into some
magic system questions.
What makes a good magic system,and can you explain for people
who haven't read Reign of theFallen what the magic system is
like in that series?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (19:27):
start with the first part of that.
So what makes like a solidmagic system For myself?
As someone who grew up readinga lot of fantasy and you know,
as a kid I actually read a lotof adult fantasy that's what I
was drawn to.
I have time and again beenimmersed into very complex
worlds where the magic system iseither never clear to me or,
you know, it's vast, it'soverwhelming and it's too vague.
(19:49):
I would say one element of agreat magic system is
specificity.
I would encourage an author whois working with a magic system
to be as specific as possible,and in particular, when we talk
about magic, magic has a cost,and I think that this is a very
important concept when we'reconsidering a magic system.
(20:09):
That magic has a price, and Ithink that it's really important
and I did this in reign of thefallen to like consider the the
physical or emotional toll thatusing something that is this
force beyond us takes on us,because magic to perform magic,
magic is taking something fromyou, and so I think that a good
(20:31):
magic system considers theconsequences of using that magic
.
Again, I also think it isspecific, and I think that one
way to do that is to pick acentral theme or topic that is
very relevant to your story andto your characters and to then
shape your magic system aroundthat.
So, in Reign of the Fallen, themagic system I wanted to, again
(20:54):
keeping in mind the body andthat it's human beings who are
wielding the magic.
Their magic system is based ontheir eye color, but it isn't
assigning arbitrary powers to aneye color.
What it is is that eachdifferent eye color is born
innately.
(21:14):
All people that have that eyecolor are born with the ability
to see something that the othereye colors don't see.
So, for instance, in Reign ofthe Fallen, people with blue
eyes see doorways into the landof the dead, into the spirit
world.
People with other eye colorscannot see that.
Thus they cannot access thisform of magic.
(21:36):
And so that is.
I went through the usual eyecolors in the first book.
In the second book I get intothe questions that teens often
have for me when I go to schoolevents.
The first question they alwaysask me at high school is what
about people with like it'scalled like, heterochromia,
(21:58):
where they have two differentiris colors?
And I'm always like read booktwo, because you will meet
people with some differentabilities and you'll see that
the magic actually stays kind ofconsistent, what they can do
with knowing their eye colors.
So I do address sort of thosewhat ifs in the second book,
which is you know.
So I think a good magic systemreally thinks through
(22:20):
consequences and thinks throughhow it impacts the world.
In Reign of the Fallen one ofthe central themes is death and
so a lot of the the overarchingworld building is shaped around
death and different differentcultures and religions,
practices like in our world,surrounding death.
(22:42):
I pulled from many differentgoals, yeah.
J. D. Myall (22:51):
I love that.
How do you handle expositionand fantasy without overwhelming
readers?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (22:53):
Oh my goodness, that is a great
question and how I like to open.
When I hear that question, how Ilike to open, it is with a
piece of advice that I was givenwhen I was starting out.
That has always stayed with meand, to correctly attribute it,
this was advice from editorCheryl A Klein, formerly at
(23:15):
Scholastic.
I don't know where she is now,but here's what this editor and
it's brilliant.
She said that when you look ata scene on the whole and I think
this is especially relevant forfantasy when you look at a
scene on the whole and I thinkthis is especially relevant for
fantasy when you look at a scene, every scene should be an equal
mix of action, dialogue anddescription.
So if I were to look at a sceneand I've hit you with, like,
(23:39):
several paragraphs of expositionin a row, some of that's going
to have to get cut and come out.
If you're bored, if you're infodumping, your reader is bored,
they're bored too.
It takes work to refine thatbalance.
But action, dialogue anddescription If you can try to
(24:00):
make sure that you areseamlessly weaving those three
elements through, you won't behaving long paragraphs of
exposition.
Those should definitely bebroken up by those other
elements.
J. D. Myall (24:13):
What advice do you have to writers on developing
their own fantasy worlds andmaking them unique?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (24:19):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I've done Reign of theFallen.
I developed my own.
That's a second world fantasy,so that's where I literally
built my own world from scratch.
Um, there are a lot of greatresources online you can access
that will ask you questions thatyou can sort of think through.
That that will help set yourworld apart once you can answer
(24:40):
them.
Um, again, I think that sort ofpicking a theme that is central
to the plot, to your narrative,and shaping the world around
that can be wonderfully distinct.
So, for Rain, it was death, andI researched all these different
death rituals and I was likewell, what would this look like
in practice?
So dead people right, they'rewalking around.
(25:04):
What does that look like?
Well, I thought to myself,death, it probably smells.
And so the dead people theywear herbs on their person, they
wear little satchels of herbsand perfumes to try to smell
better, because death is decay.
Creating a believable world isreally in the details, is what
I'm saying.
It's about thinking through themost minute thing.
(25:25):
And then, how does that affectthe whole culture?
How does that shape thesepeople Like, how do the magic
systems or the things thatyou're trying to express through
this world.
How do those affect peopleevery day?
It's really in the details, andso I like to keep a binder with
my world building details.
That was especially helpfulwith Reign of the Fallen because
(25:46):
there was a sequel.
They bought two books at onceand by the time I went to go
write that sequel I hadforgotten so many things.
You forget.
You're living life, life's hard, you forget things.
And so I sat down to write thesequel and I said to myself man,
some fan is going to yell at mebecause I'm going to get
somebody's eye color wrong.
(26:07):
I was going to throw off thewhole book.
So I kept a binder with all ofthose world building details and
referred back to it frequentlyas I wrote.
I think that is a reallyhelpful thing to have all your
stuff gathered in one place.
But you know, you can alsowrite something set in the real
world and make it your own.
I also write historical fantasyand you know, for that I wrote
(26:30):
a book that has sea monsters.
I've written books that havefairies.
I basically did a lot ofresearch and created my own
fairy lore.
I created my own sea monsterlore based off existing monsters
from different cultures.
So lots of research and lots ofdetail.
J. D. Myall (26:48):
Okay, that leads me to one of our questions in the
chat.
Sure Seth wanted to know whatis your research process like
and do you have any favoriteresources?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (27:02):
Oh, that's a great question.
So let me start with researchprocess and I'll circle back to
resources.
Remind me.
So it is really different forevery single book.
It depends what I need toresearch.
So I wrote a book called Fearthe Drowning Deep.
That book was set on the Isleof man.
Well, I've never been to theIsle of man.
(27:24):
I am Irish.
I've been close to it, haven'tbeen there.
It's really hard to get a boatover.
So what did I do?
I bought books from a localbookstore on the Isle of man and
had them shipped here andwaited three weeks for them to
arrive.
I educated myself on theirculture and their beliefs.
I read about their language.
When I was like trying todevelop character names, I
(27:46):
actually pulled census data fromthe time period I was writing
in and cobbled together names.
That way, since I hadn't beenthere, I went on YouTube and I
would watch.
There is a famous motorcyclerace that takes place on the
Isle of man and I would watchthose motorcycle races, not for
the bikes but to look at thebackground scenery, because they
(28:08):
were driving the whole islandand thus I was getting to look
at the beaches and look at theterrain and be able to better
describe it.
Also, the reporters who reportthat event are Manx and I was
able to listen to their accentsso that I could better write it.
Yeah, it's really unique toevery book and what it what it
means.
I wrote a book that's a ghoststory.
It involves a girl going to athis old crumbling estate and
(28:32):
she volunteers to help turn itinto a museum.
My family that is a historicalmuseum and for that one I went
out to my family's house and Italked to all the volunteers.
So it really depends on thesituation, on what the book
needs.
(28:53):
Insofar as writing resources,things that I would point you to
that I think cover a lot.
If you are querying agents, youare going to want to look at
Query Tracker.
If you are querying agents, youare going to want to look at
Query Tracker.
I think the forums at AgentQuery Connect are fantastic.
I critiqued a lot of queriesthere and had my own query
(29:14):
letters to agents critiquedthere.
That was very helpful.
A good general writing resourceand forum would be Absolute
Write.
I highly recommend their forumsas well.
J. D. Myall (29:25):
So Carl wants to know.
Carl says in a picture bookproject, who starts first, the
writer or the illustrator?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (29:36):
And do you ever do it at the same time?
Is it in parallel?
So in my own experience andbased on my like larger
understanding, it is neverparallel parallel.
So what happens is I write thetext first and typically I have
that text edited with the editorand completely finalized before
they hire an illustrator.
(29:58):
Now, what I and during thatprocess, when?
So then they come in, they gethired and then they're
illustrating.
Typically I have no contactwith them.
Occasionally I will.
I have type 1 diabetes,sometimes called juvenile
diabetes, and I wrote a bookabout that for children who are
newly diagnosed and living withthe disease, and for that the
(30:20):
illustrator consulted with meabout what the medical devices
are supposed to look like.
Illustrator consulted with meabout what the medical devices
are supposed to look like.
So there are times where it'snecessary, but typically
typically no, I have noinvolvement with the illustrator
and typically my end is donefirst.
So there is a finalized textfrom which they are working and
I will sometimes leave likerelevant notes underneath lines
(30:41):
of text if it's really important.
J. D. Myall (30:42):
So Okay, seth had one more question about your,
your notebook that you mentionedearlier.
Seth wanted to know if you usetemplates or if you design the
notebook elements yourself.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (30:54):
That's a great question too.
I actually designed theelements myself.
I didn't use any kind oftemplates, it was, yeah, all
honestly, all pulled from mybrain, and I am one of those
type A people who's veryorganized and so, like I kept
like a name bank and I evenprinted that out and I just I
had all these referencematerials that I organized
myself, yeah.
J. D. Myall (31:14):
That's cool.
Carl wants to know can you givesome markers that define middle
grade in terms of appropriatecontent these days?
And these days it feels likethey're pushing some of the old
limits, and I think there was aquestion about is it good for
marketing too?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (31:34):
and yeah, okay.
So, uh, middle grade elements,uh, what defines like a good?
Uh, when we think about middlegrade, you know, for myself,
when I think of middle grade, Istill think of, say, the first
Harry Potter book.
That is very classically middlegrade.
Um, when I think of middlegrade, I have noticed that
(31:56):
middle grade is starting toinclude some elements like
romance, and I'm of I'm of mixedopinion about it because, like
for myself, when I was the ageof a middle grade reader, I
wasn't interested in romance.
I was, like for myself, when Iwas the age of a middle grade
reader, I wasn't interested inromance.
I was still reading the SaddleClub.
I didn't want to talk aboutboys or girls, I just wanted to
ride my horse and like singsongs and watch TV and hang out
(32:17):
with my friends.
So, you know, I typically tendto think of the middle grade
sensibility as having verylittle to no romance or, you
know, crushes would beappropriate.
I think, at middle grade age.
The middle grade audience, youknow we say middle grade and I
think a lot of us think middleschool.
Well, children will typicallyread older.
(32:40):
So, like, the kids who arereading middle grade are like 10
years old because they'rereading about 13 year olds and
they're like, oh, this is edgyand cool, but so you've got to
keep in mind the actual age ofthose readers, for who that's
targeted to are about 10 yearsold.
When I wrote my first middlegrade, it was actually a rewrite
of an older fantasy projectthat I had done, meaning like
(33:01):
for older readers, and when Irewrote it I had these two girls
.
They were sisters.
They were alone in the woodsand someone was watching them
and my agent goes no, she waslike nope, take that out.
She was like that is absolutelysinister.
They don't have a parent orguardian.
They're in the woods bythemselves and there's a creepy
person watching them.
No, this is not safe.
And she was like this is not anappropriate scenario for middle
(33:23):
grade.
So even I have had to learn totone down my voice and
sensibilities when it comes tomiddle grade.
Yeah, it's a.
It's a fine balance.
What I'm saying there is.
It's definitely tough.
J. D. Myall (33:35):
Another comment from a question from the chat.
Somebody wants to know have youever had an experience where
you were not quite satisfiedwith the illustrator, and how
did you handle it?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (33:48):
quite satisfied with the illustrator.
And how did you handle it?
Oh, good question.
Um, let me like I'm turning myhead because I'm looking over at
my picture books.
Um, I don't want to like nameany names specific.
Um, I have one where, like, theart is not a style that I would
have chosen, but theillustrator is very celebrated.
So, honestly, in that case,because they chose and it wasn't
anything to do with me, I just,you know, you kind of have to
(34:11):
be classy and say thank you Ifthere were an actual problem.
So, for instance, like workingon how to spot a fairy, I
actually asked for the fairiesto be inclusive, so I gave a lot
of hands on guidance.
There there's an elf in awheelchair.
I wanted the fairies to reflectlike real children.
So some of them have mobilityaids, some of them have like
(34:33):
part of a mechanical wing,things like this, so that real
children could see themselves.
Some of them have glasses.
They have a range of differentskin tones.
They're pretty cool.
But Lilla tried to include afairy with an insulin pump and
she misunderstood what that wasand I think, I think I went back
and forth with her three times.
I went through my editor.
(34:53):
I just keep everyone CC'dbecause we have clear
communication and yeah, so likeif there's an important issue
I'll push back politely in anemail.
I just keep good communication.
I tag my agent and then thatway my agent is also like
overseeing whatever issue isgoing on and keeping an eye on
it.
J. D. Myall (35:11):
Yeah, I love that.
A lot of people don't know thatyou have also done some
sensitivity reading and stufflike that.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (35:17):
I sure have.
I did a one of my favoriteprojects.
I did a sensitivity read forLittle Brown projects.
I did a sensitivity read forLittle Brown and it was for an
author I love and she hadwritten a book that included a
type one diabetic main character.
However, she herself does nothave type one diabetes and she
really cared and she had done aton of research and she wanted
(35:39):
to get it right and it was.
It really struck me that, like,even with the ton of research,
she'd got a lot of stuff wrong.
It's like when I started thatread, one thing that stuck out I
remember this, this charactershe wakes up and she's giving
her little brother his insulin.
He's the type one diabetic andshe says his blood sugar is 56
and she's going to give him someinsulin.
(36:00):
Oh my God, no, no, don't dothat, you'll kill him.
No, so like things like thisthat just you know, to me
there's second nature.
You know, even with herwell-intentioned research, she
still needed the guidance of asensitivity reader.
I've also used sensitivityreaders in my own work.
(36:20):
I have included, for instance,gender fluid on non-binary
characters and I use sensitivityreaders for that because that
is outside of my livedexperience and it's just amazing
the things that you learn fromother people's lived experiences
when they read and weigh in onyour book.
J. D. Myall (36:37):
I love that we were actually having a conversation
in one of our other craft chatsabout diversity and inclusion
and things of that nature andstories and a lot of people are
fearful of making their storiesdiverse because they're afraid
of doing something wrong.
And yeah, I've never shied awayfrom that.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (37:02):
it's always the thing is that's how the
world is and and you know, assomeone who has, like, if you
look at me, you might not know Ihave a disease, unless I
literally like, show you myinsulin pump, there's my
pancreas right, like, otherwiseyou wouldn't know, it's hidden
away and and I just there are.
There are examples of diversitywe see every single day and
(37:23):
there are ones we don't even see, and so, because of that, like,
I just try to be very mindfulof that and I feel like writing
should reflect the real world,even if we're, say, in a fantasy
setting and we are, becauseeven when we're in a fantasy
setting, what we're doing iswe're exploring real world
issues and real topics and thoseaffect everybody.
So, yeah, I feel very stronglyabout making sure that my work
(37:45):
reflects everyone, regardless ofthe setting.
J. D. Myall (37:52):
Love that.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (37:53):
There's a question in the chat Somebody
wants to know how you became asensitivity reader.
Ok, so that's a great questiontoo.
I know that there are somedatabases where you can sign up
to offer that service.
I don't specifically have thename of them in front of me so I
would have to go look that up,but I've got them bookmarked,
like I'm aware, and you cansearch.
You know, sensitivity readerdatabase and you can actually
like register and become one.
Like you can put yourself on alist so that you're visible so
(38:16):
people can reach out to you.
I did not do that.
This author was aware of me andI, of course, like when I'm
online, if I'm posting anythingI try to share about my life,
about my disease, what's hardabout that?
So she knew I was a type onediabetic.
She asked for her editorspecifically to get me if I was
willing to do the work.
(38:37):
So the publisher approached me.
J. D. Myall (38:39):
Yeah, love that, love that.
Let's move on to talking alittle bit about writing craft.
What do you think makescompelling characters?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (38:49):
So here's my trick with characters.
You know we we can talk about atlength, about main characters,
but this is my secret to get anovel where you like all the
characters or you feel something, they make you feel something,
I give every single character inmy books an arc, whether they
(39:10):
are the main character or thesmallest side character.
I give them, you know so, sidecharacter C.
They start the story this oneway and the events of the story
shape their life in this way andhere is where they end up and
before I start writing a book, Ithink, through an arc, even if
it's minor, through every singlecharacter, so that I know that
(39:32):
every character is going to likebe shaped by the events in the
story.
They're going to grow andchange along with the narrative.
So by the time you're done, allthe people that you're
interacting with, they'veinteracted with this plot and
these problems and they have allcome out changed.
And I think that that issomething people could do, or or
spend more time on up front, tocreate really dynamic
(39:53):
characters that really feel apart of the world and feel like
fully actualized people.
J. D. Myall (40:02):
I love that um what makes a good villain.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (40:19):
I love this question Villains.
For me it's I'm sure you'veheard this term, it comes up a
lot these days morally grayshades of gray.
I don't like.
I've lived enough life to knowthat most people are not wholly
good or wholly bad, and so Ithink when we consider our
villains, creating a villain,there has to be something about
them that either humanizes themor in some way helps the reader
(40:42):
relate to their motivations.
So, for instance and I'll justI'll use Rainy the Fallen again
as an example here real quickthe villain there, his
motivation, is actually reallygood If you take away the way
that he's going about it, whichis freaking terrible.
We don't murder and all thesethings.
He's going about it in ahorrible way.
His intention isn't bad.
(41:05):
The thing that he wants issomething that readers will
understand.
Their society needs it, and soI think that making sure your
villain comes across as human,as flawed, as having some
redeemable aspects or havingmotivations that aren't just
kill, murder, destroy, addsdepth to your entire novel.
J. D. Myall (41:32):
What are the essential elements of a good
first page?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (41:36):
I mean, this is just my opinion.
A killer first line.
Hook me with your first lineFirst page.
I'll get into first page in asecond, but seriously, forget
the first page.
Kill it with your first line.
Write me a first line that Iwill always remember.
Oh my gosh, I love a good firstline.
(41:57):
That'll determine you know howfast I'll get to something.
Spell me on that first line Agood first page.
On that first line, a goodfirst page.
I'm getting to know yourcharacter but I'm not
overwhelmed.
A good first page you are, youknow.
To me a good first page isn'tdropping me into the middle of
(42:19):
action.
A good first page isn'tdisorienting.
A good first page is reallypresenting you with like a hook
of what the story is going to beabout and it's reeling you in.
But your first page don't.
Tension should rise throughoutyour novel.
So your first page isn't themost tense page, but it's
interesting.
You're not confusing me with along paragraph of exposition,
(42:41):
but you are slowly easing meinto your character and your
world and introducing whatevercentral theme or problem, just a
little hint of it, enough thatI am interested and I am curious
to continue on to the next page.
That is a very fine balance.
That's a hard thing.
First page is uh make or breakit very true, yeah, the writers
avoid the saggy middle.
(43:04):
So for myself, how I avoid thatis essentially these days I
write to contracts, so thesedays I often work from a full
outline where I have the benefitof going through and seeing
what the events are going to bein the middle.
But you know, it goes back towhat I just said about we want
to think about rising tension,rising action, about rising
(43:31):
tension, rising action.
And for myself, what I'll do isI'll have like some index cards
or something with a couple ofscenes plotted out through the
middle of the book that I'm veryexcited to get to.
This is my trick.
Okay, so middle of the book,let's, whatever scene this is,
let's say it's a major characterdeath.
Well, I've got that on an indexcard and I know that's coming.
What that does is, as I'mdrafting, I am more and more
(43:52):
excited to get to these points,to get to these scenes that are
spread throughout the middle ofthe book.
It causes me to naturally havethe tension be rising because I
am excited to get there.
It helps to drive the storyforward.
It gives added momentum whenyou know what your big, exciting
scenes throughout the middle ofthe book are how do you craft a
compelling ending?
(44:15):
for myself.
I always know my ending aheadof time.
When I'm writing a book, I needto know the end, I need to know
the last line.
Having that in my head thewhole time allows me to stick
the landing, if that makes sense, and I mean so really, what I'm
telling you here is I pre-plana lot.
I know people talk about thepantsing and the fun, and it is
(44:36):
fun.
Uh, one of my hobbies isrole-playing, collaborative
writing with other people,because I can turn off my
internal editor, nobody'swatching, I can make stupid
typos and nothing has to makethat much sense except to the
person I'm writing with.
And so I still write for funand I do these sorts of things
where I am making things up onthe fly.
That's a great skill and it'swonderful to be able to write
(44:57):
quickly.
I think that helps me to draftquicker when I'm writing
professionally.
But the truth is, when I'mwriting professionally, a lot of
planning goes into it up frontto ensure that, like, all the
elements are going to worktogether and I can stick that in
.
J. D. Myall (45:12):
Are there website or tools that you find helpful
when you're drafting?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (45:17):
This is terrible, but honestly, I use
Microsoft Word.
I use.
I have a small laptop.
I have a Lenovo thing thatweighs like two pounds and I
will take it to the library.
Here's what's helpful to meDisconnecting from the internet
and distractions.
So, like the tools, my toolkitis essentially like not so much
(45:38):
a website, but it's writing inthe same place every day, or
writing at the same time everyday and doing little things to
clue my brain into.
Yes, adhd, it's time to focusnow.
So by doing that and by havinglike a routine with my writing,
I am able to more successfullydraft when I'm in certain places
One of my favorites.
(45:58):
I live across the street frommy local library and I often
write in their quiet room.
That really helps me to focus,surrounding myself with other
folks who are also like workingand quiet and focused.
It's just perfect.
And they have a rule aboutsilencing technology and so it's
like my distraction-free zone.
I'd say that's my biggest help.
I just, I honestly write inWord.
I have a lot of friends wholove things like Scrivener, but
(46:21):
I'm not fancy.
I have a lot of books.
I don't know Microsoft Word.
I don't do it every time, it'sold-fashioned but it works.
J. D. Myall (46:29):
How does your author-agent relationship work?
your agent agent help you decidewhat to write next?
Or do you like pitch ideas todecide what would be more
marketable, or do you just writeit and let her sell it after?
No, that's a great question.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (46:41):
I've actually done a little bit of everything
I have like old manuscripts.
I've given her that we've beenpitched and sold and revised
together.
I will sometimes say I'm goingto work on a new picture book.
I'll give her a list of ideasand we'll pick something that
we're both excited about.
These days typically I'mwriting for an editor, so like
they might have something.
(47:02):
I have a book coming out calledBigfoot's Big Heart.
It's a cryptid Valentine's Day.
It's with Viking.
It's really fun.
But how that came about was myeditor said hey, sarah, we're
short a Valentine's Day book forour list for the coming season.
Do you want to write one?
And I said oh sure, can it beabout Bigfoot?
And she said that's weird butokay, and that's how we got
(47:24):
started.
So sometimes it's aconversation between editor and
me rather than with my agent.
But as far as like my ownoriginal projects and what I'm
doing next, it's generallydriven by me and not all agents
are that way.
But that's my agent is calledCaitlin.
That is my relationship withCaitlin and that is why I like
(47:44):
being with her.
She covers all the age rangesand genres and so I feel
incredibly supported regardlessof what I choose to write.
So I feel a lot of creativefreedom with her.
We collaborate very well whenwe do get into the editorial
process.
I'm actually waiting on hernotes.
Right now.
I just wrote my first adultbook, my first original adult
(48:05):
book.
It's a big book, it's like 130K.
She's probably gonna tell me tocut like a third of this.
It's a monster.
But it's my first adult book.
It's a romanticist, so it'slike very spicy fantasy romance
with like very low worldbuilding, low magic.
I love it.
It's all about the characterdynamics.
It's called we Could BeAntiheroes and I'm really
(48:27):
excited about it.
So I'm waiting on her notes onthat right now.
I basically told her hey,caitlin, I'm getting a little
tired of writing YA.
I want to stretch my wings in anew direction and I want to
write some very spicy contentbecause I'm good at it and it's
something I do on the internet.
And she was like, okay, let'sdo it, but I love that freedom.
So that's what I'm exploringright now is breaking into adult
(48:48):
.
What do you?
J. D. Myall (48:53):
how do you view the future of children's and YA
literature?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (48:57):
Wow, that's a great question.
So nowadays, books have tocompete with so many other forms
of media that kids are reallyinto, and I think that's very
difficult.
Um, you know, so, realistically, books are going to have to be
very exciting, very attentiongrabbing.
(49:18):
Um, they might have to bebriefer for kids, um, but I see,
in general, I see kids and uhand YA as as moving toward more
and more inclusivity, which Ireally love seeing.
I think we're gonna.
I mean, when I wrote Reign ofthe Fallen, I didn't think that
it would sell because it has abisexual main character and I
(49:41):
didn't think that the industrywas going to accept that.
I thought that was going to getlike maybe go to like an indie
press that was like, you know,lgbt press or something.
I didn't think that it would be, and so I was at my imprint.
I was the first bisexual authorwriting fantasy and that sounds
so weird because it wasn't thatlong ago, but in.
(50:03):
So I think that came out in2018.
I think it sold in 2016.
So you look at, that's whatwe're 2024.
So it's like eight years In thespan of eight years now, so
many different, diverse books.
I can point you to so manybi-fantasy authors or characters
.
Now, in the YA space, in thekid-lit space, like we're gonna
(50:26):
see more and more and moreG-Points welcomed in.
I think that's going to becomethe norm and I think that's
really important because, like,I can't be your token bisexual
author, because sexuality is nota monolith and I always speak
for myself and so, like yikes, Idon't speak for a group of
people.
I can't, I'm not them, and so Ijust think we're going to see a
(50:48):
lot more inclusion, a lot moredifferent viewpoints.
I think there's going to bepressure to make things very
exciting, to compete with otherforms of media, and I think we
may see a lot more like mediatie-in type stuff Netflix shows,
crossovers, things like that.
J. D. Myall (51:04):
And as far as, like YA and adult're doing, you're
dipping your toes in the adultarena too.
Um, what do you think of thetrends?
What do you think is going tobe like based on what you hear
in the industry?
What do you think is going tobe the next thing, or what's
that?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (51:19):
yeah, I, yeah I read I read industry
newsletters and stuff.
Um, romanticy right now is allanyone wants.
An adult.
I will tell you that straightup and that's going to bleed
into YA.
Everybody wants romantasy.
So, basically, like fantasiesthat don't require complex magic
systems, like don't require alot of thought to like immerse
you into the world.
Fourth Wing is going to be anexample.
(51:41):
I know the second book got veryheavy on world building,
apparently, but Fourth Wing is agreat example of a romanticy.
Uh, some of the sarah j massbooks are also a good example.
Um, that's what.
That's what I know editors andbook scouts and everyone are
asking for.
Uh, they are looking for, andthey're also looking for things
that can, um, quickly sell asmovies and tv.
(52:04):
That's the other thing they'relooking for.
They're really looking for moreof the film tie and stuff that
I mentioned.
J. D. Myall (52:10):
Okay, anybody have any questions?
I see you're going to unmuteyourself and ask I have a
question Regarding your titles.
I thought the Bigfoot andBigfoot was really cute.
Were you able to keep yourtitles or did you have to sort
of compromise on some of those?
Thank you for the greatquestion.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (52:33):
Oftentimes I'm able to keep them.
So, fear the Drowning Deep, theGirls Are Never Gone.
Reign of the Fallen I came upwith those.
Bigfoot's Big Heart I came upwith that.
Most of the time, yeah, I'vekept kept my own titles.
I will say the one time Ididn't was the sequel to Reign
of the Fallen ended up beingcalled Song of the Dead.
(52:53):
I think I sent that in as Riseof the Fallen because it's about
the dead people rising up and Iwas like, oh yeah, rise of the
Fallen.
I got my edits back and theywere like, by the way, the
book's called Song of the Dead.
Now we took over.
I was like, okay, that wasn'teven a title that I made up.
They were the book's calledSong of the Dead.
Now we took over.
I was like, okay, that wasn'teven a title that I made up.
They were like it's called Songof the Dead and I was like, all
right, but in general I've mademy own titles Like 90% of the
(53:19):
time.
Yeah, thank you.
J. D. Myall (53:24):
Anybody else have a question?
Hello, jump right in Hi.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (53:27):
Hi, sorry, anybody else have a question?
Jump right in.
Hi, sorry, you mentionedsomething having action,
dialogue and something.
When you're writing, I can'tremember the last line.
J. D. Myall (53:37):
I didn't catch the last line of when you were
talking and you said you want agood mix of action dialogue.
Thank you for the questionAction dialogue and description.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (53:45):
Oh, thank you for the question.
Action, dialogue anddescription oh, thank you.
Thank you so much surroundingscharacter yes, sensory details
that type of thing.
Thank you so so much.
I've been killing myself overwhat that last one was, because
I think it was very importantdescription yes, thank you,
thank you so much.
Thank you so much, thank you.
J. D. Myall (54:07):
Anybody else have any questions for Sarah?
Carl has one in his head.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (54:21):
Okay, Carl.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
So my question was when you give up on querying
when do you like, when do youokay, when you're like?
You know, just, it's stupid.
The world has spoken.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (54:29):
How do you know?
Yeah, okay, okay.
Well, I will say this becauseI've asked this before too, and
my friend Jody Meadows she's aNew York Times bestselling
author when I asked her thisquestion, you know what she made
me do?
She made me hold her first 16manuscripts.
She printed them all out.
She had 16 that got rejectedbefore she signed with an agent
(54:51):
16 books rejected before she gotthat, yes, and so she's made me
hold them.
Man, that's heavy, it's hard tohold that.
How do you know when to give upon querying?
Well, here's the thing If yourquery is getting you all those,
the problem is your query.
If you're getting requests formaterial from agents, then your
(55:15):
query is working and your pagessuck.
It may not mean the whole booksucks.
I mean typically and I sound soharsh, but typically what I see
is if the first couple ofchapters are off enough that all
the agents are being put off bythem, there are flaws in the
entire manuscript that are goingto need to be worked on right.
Those few chapters don't existin isolation.
(55:36):
So if again, if, yeah, if yourquery is just getting stopped,
you need to revise your query.
Your query isn't working.
I would be asking you have youlooked at a catchy log line?
Have you selected appropriatecomp titles for your book?
Have you crafted a summarythat's less than 200 words.
That's very attention-grabbing.
(55:56):
So, yeah, if you're gettingno's on your query, you need to
work on your query.
If you're getting no's onrequested material, you need to
go back.
Go to your critique partners,find new critique partners and
dig into your material again,because if you're getting to the
request stage, it's yourmaterial failing you, not the
query.
J. D. Myall (56:18):
Love that Any other questions?
Okay, where can everybodyconnect?
With you?
So, um, I am on Instagram atSarah Marsh author.
I'm technically on Twitter.
I will not call it annex.
I think it's silly.
Um, I'm on Twitter at SG,underscore Marsh.
(56:38):
I'm not typically there.
Sarah Marsh, author onInstagram is a great place to
find me, or my website iswwwsarahglennmarshcom.
Awesome, and you're also onFacebook too, if they want to
see adorable baby pictures, yeah, yeah, pictures of my dogs, my
birds and my daughter Dawn, yeah, Thank you so much, we
(56:59):
appreciate you.
Hey, thank you.
Thanks for all the wonderfulquestions.
It was really great being hereand I hope you all have a great
night.
Yeah, have a good nighteverybody.
Thank you for coming.
Thank you again, Sarah, youhave been brilliantly
informative.
Speaker 4 (57:11):
That wraps up today's craft chat chronicles with JD
Meyer.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to JD
JDMyall.
com.
That's JDMyall.
com.
(57:32):
While you're there, join JD'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
writing journey.
(00:26):
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmyallcom.
That's jdmyallcom.
J. D. Myall (00:36):
On episode six of Craft Chat Chronicles, we have
YA author and children's picturebook author, sSarah Glenn Marsh
.
All right, everybody, welcometo tonight's Craft Chat.
Tonight we have the honor ofhosting Sarah Glenn Marsh.
She's an award-winning authorknown for her best-selling and
enthralling novels like andbeloved children's picture books
(00:56):
like Nita's Big World.
Tonight, Sarah will offervaluable advice on creating
picture books, talk aboutwriting craft and give you some
tips for making fabulousfantasies.
Welcome again, Sarah, Thank you.
Can we start with you tellingeverybody a little bit about
your publishing journey?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (01:16):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So I you know, honestly,growing up I loved reading and
writing.
I was the kid who checked outmultiple.
I mean I would check out astack of books from the library
every week.
I was that kid.
I was a voracious reader.
Reading was what got me introuble growing up the most.
(01:39):
I would get in trouble at homewith my grandparents or my
parents for reading at the tablebecause it was what I preferred
doing, and I would get introuble in school for reading
under my desk.
But the thing is I was gettingstraight A's but they were still
mad.
That's fine, whatever.
Um, so I was.
(01:59):
I was that kid who, like always, literally had my my head in a
book.
Um, that kid who, like always,literally had my head in a book.
But nobody ever really talked tome about writing as a career,
sort of the reality of that, howachievable it was.
I always considered authors tobe these like very mysterious,
unapproachable, distant figures,because how can you be one, I
(02:22):
don't know.
I mean this was a little pre Imean not too pre-internet, but
it was just a mysterious thingto me and I never had the
opportunity to like listen to apublished author and sort of
learn from them about what thatcareer looked like.
I took creative writing in highschool, absolutely loved it,
and I had a teacher who reallyencouraged me my creative
(02:43):
writing teacher and we'reactually still in touch.
She was a wonderful mentor andthe first person to kind of make
me think that there wassomething there with my writing
that might be a little differentor a little more, that I had to
look at something a littlespecial.
So I got.
(03:05):
I went to school, I went toUniversity of Mary Washington
and I got my master's inelementary education.
That was my background.
I wasn't thinking about being awriter, but while I was in that
program, my favorite professoractually she ran a literacy
specialization that I took partin, and so this was like an
(03:26):
extra piece to your degree.
It was like what you focused inon.
And of course, I pickedliteracy and she really inspired
me a love of children's picturebooks, and she was an
incredible professor.
She would actually readchildren's picture books in our
classes to like foster a genuineappreciation, and she brought
in authors and so for the firsttime I got to sort of connect
(03:47):
and see some of these peopleface to face.
And then on the other side ofit.
I was going into classroomsright working on my degree in
teaching, and I got to spend alot of time, especially helping
reluctant readers, which was myfavorite thing.
I remember reading with thislittle boy who was having a lot
of difficulties with havingstable figures at home and he
(04:10):
looked forward to reading withme every day after school before
he got called to walk home.
And you know, getting toconnect with kids through
stories was a really specialthing for me, that kind of
always stuck.
Special thing for me, that kindof always stuck.
So then I graduated, I waslooking for a teaching job and
my partner said to me you shouldreally write a book.
(04:31):
And I was like what do you mean?
Write a book?
He was like, well, pause thejob search, write a book.
And I was like that doesn'tsound like a great idea.
Thank you, I wouldn't.
I wouldn't know what to do.
Like, what do you mean write abook?
And he it was the strangestthing for him to say, because
he's not an avid reader himself,so he hadn't really like read
any of my writing.
(04:51):
And he was like, well, but youhave so many books and you read
so many books and I know you'lllove to write and he was like
try it.
Um, so while I had an attemptjob, I used their old computer
and wrote my first novel.
It was terrible, but I did sendit to agents and when I got
their rejections I was so madand when I get mad I get very
(05:15):
motivated.
I find anger is a fantasticmotivator.
So I was like you know what I'mgoing to show all of them?
I'm going to write somethingthat's so commercial that they
can't tell me no.
So I went back and I wrote asecond book.
I wrote a ghost story and ithad issues, but I actually the
funny thing is that ghost storyit was what got me my first
agent got me four offers ofrepresentation.
(05:37):
This was all within about a I'dsay like a six month period
back in like 2014.
And I signed with my agent thatbook.
We did not seek out publicationfor it right away, but much
later down the line it becameone of my books with Penguin the
girls are never gone.
I went back into that oldmanuscript, harvested the bones
of it and the things that Iloved and, you know, transformed
(06:00):
it into something else, and sothat story actually lives on.
All the characters are the same, same names, same setting.
But that was really how I gotstarted.
It was that second book and Ihad entered that book in a
contest.
While I was writing it, I waslucky enough to receive feedback
from a published author, susanDennard and again, leaning on
(06:21):
people who have that job and whohave that experience was
absolutely vital to meunderstanding how to do it,
because what she said these arethe conventions we use in
publishing and this is the waythat we do this.
It all clicked for me and Isaid, oh well, actually that's
not true.
I read her feedback and Ideleted my book off my laptop
and I put my laptop under thebed and I said I was never
(06:43):
writing again.
This lasted about two weeks.
I was in the shower and it hitme.
So about two weeks later I'm inthe shower and it hit me like a
ton of bricks how everythingshe said was true and how to fix
the whole novel based on heramazing feedback.
So I went in, I dug in and afterrevising it, I sought out
(07:04):
agents and I got agented prettymuch right away.
That is not usual.
I feel I was very fortunate andI learned a lot.
I'm now with my third agent.
There's a lot of turnover inpublishing, but I mean, really
I've learned with every agent.
I'm very happy I'm at JillGrinberg now and I'm very happy
(07:24):
I'm at Jill Grinberg now and I'mvery happy there and I'm
working across children's,middle grade, young adult and
also adult.
I also, in addition to my ownwork, I also do IP work,
intellectual property, meaningI've written for Crayola, I've
written for the Smithsonian,I've written for Star Wars and I
am currently writing forsomething, a popular franchise,
(07:47):
but it's not yet announced, so Ishould probably stop myself.
That is the gist of mypublishing journey.
So far, I have over 20 titlespublished to my backlist.
I work primarily with Penguin,but with other publishers as
well, and I have several booksin various stages of contracts
and publication right now.
So I love that.
J. D. Myall (08:07):
What do you think you did right that helped you
break into the publishingindustry?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (08:11):
You know, the number one thing I think, aside
from from just being a veryavid reader, I think it was my
ability to connect with othersand to take feedback, Because
one thing that I think may notbe as apparent from the outside
with publishing is just howcollaborative it is every step
(08:36):
of the way.
So let's say, you've writtenthis book that you absolutely
love.
You're going to have to changeit.
You're going to change thewhole thing with your agent.
And then you're like, oh gosh,that was so much work, that was
so harrowing.
I've changed my whole novelwith my agent.
It's not what I started with.
I feel some kind of way aboutthat.
Well, you can't feel too muchabout it because you're going to
(08:58):
have to change it with youreditor probably three or four
times.
And then the amount of peoplewho work on a book.
I've seen a figure quotedsomewhere.
I don't want to say this asabsolute point of fact because I
don't have the quote in frontof me, but it's something like
70 people from sales, marketing,editing and all the different
departments will touch atraditionally published book
(09:20):
before it's actually on theshelves.
So there's this whole team ofprofessionals looking over your
work.
You've really got to be open tofeedback and collaboration and
to look at it as a collaborativeeffort.
And then, at the same time, Isay that and I think that is
what I did right.
And yet the other piece is youhave to be able to advocate for
(09:42):
yourself when the time is right.
That is something else that Ihave really learned along the
way the power of advocating foryourself, because you have to
know when the feedback isaltering your story too much.
You have to know when to standup for yourself when something
isn't sitting right in your gut,and how to speak up in a way
that gets you listened to andnot shut down in a way that gets
(10:07):
you listened to and not shutdown.
J. D. Myall (10:10):
I love that.
What was the?
Surprising?
Well, that's a great question.
I would say something that wasreally fun or it was a really
cute surprise.
I went up.
So when my book Reign of theFallen was about to be published
(10:31):
, I went up to New York to meetwith my editor and we had a
really nice conversation.
She and I were good friends.
She's since moved on from theindustry and I miss her a ton.
She's a great person.
We were very good friends.
I came up, we had a nice time.
She let me pick out books fromthe shelves of yet to be
published titles at Penguin,which was really fun.
(10:53):
But then she was like we'regoing to go downstairs for a
minute and we went.
We rode the elevator down to thePenguin building several floors
and there was a room and it wasall set up and they had
decorated it to match with theReign of the Fallen book cover
and we had a surprise champagnebrunch and everyone from Penguin
(11:14):
came down and the head of myimprint gave a big toast and you
know it was.
It was very surprising and very, very sweet and just such a
surreal moment of having put inthe work and seeing it touch all
these different people.
That was incredibly special,and likewise the turnout for the
Reign of the Fallen launch.
(11:35):
I had a reader flying fromMexico.
I would not fly from Mexico tomeet myself, let me tell you
what and so it was verysurprising and very, very
surreal, that whole experience.
And you know, my takeaway fromthat actually from that
surprising, wonderful experienceis I don't actually need I
(11:57):
don't need champagne brunch andI don't need frills and I don't
need to be anyone's darling whenit comes to my work, but what I
do need is an enthusiasticresponsive supportive publisher.
what's the story behind the story, Can you
Sarah Glenn Marsh (12:18):
Current?
I have so many differentcurrent things going on on, let
me see.
So right now this one's beenannounced.
I just did a book called how toSpot a Fairy a Field Guide to
Sprites, spriggans and More, andso how to Spot a Fairy is a
compendium of fairy folklore.
(12:39):
This was an incredibly funproject.
This was actually this startedas IP, intellectual property, so
a publisher had an idea to do afolklore series and they
approached me and asked if Iwould be interested.
My own background I am Irish.
My father's family is from atown called Kersivine, so
Kersivine is in South Kerry.
(12:59):
It's a town of about a thousandpeople, but I love it.
I think it's a really specialplace.
It's out near the skelligislands where they filmed, uh,
star wars, so folks may knowthat, and um, that's where I'm
from and there is a a very richculture, rich history that I
grew up with, surroundingfairies.
Um, there are folks over there,especially out in the
(13:21):
countryside and especially inrural places like carrie, who
still believe in fairies and andI mean that belief is like very
much alive and present, uh, towhere you can almost feel like
you are somewhere where magicexists or like that is possible
and people fear and respect it.
Um, so when I got asked to do acompendium of fairy folklore um
(13:43):
, it's for a middle gradeaudience I felt like I was
absolutely the right person todo a compendium of fairy
folklore.
It's for a middle grade audience.
I felt like I was absolutelythe right person to do it.
You know, kids don't likecutesy fairies and I think that
because of my Irish background Ibrought to it a healthy respect
and fear of how horrible thesethings can actually be that I
think kids will find fascinatingbut tempered with like, not too
(14:05):
scary and awful, if that makessense.
I'm a mom of a two year oldlittle girl and so I do also
have like that, that momsensibility of like walking the
line of like what is too much.
So that book I got to delve intolike fairy legends from around
the world, um, they, the termfairy is primarily like a very
(14:29):
western european, very localized, like the uk, ireland and wales
concept, but um, I took it andgave it a more like global view,
which was really fun to make itaccessible for kids around the
world.
Um, and I got to help choosethe illustrator.
Her name is Lilla, she's fromEastern Europe and her
(14:49):
illustrations are like they'revery spooky.
They've got that proper senseof fairy or like you are have a
healthy fear of them, and thewhole book is.
It's like an art book, so it'sfilled with mythology but also
art.
There are like pull out mapsand stuff and I this thing is
brilliant.
I just saw a final, like afinal look through, um, I think
(15:13):
like two weeks ago, and okayedit to go to the printer.
So, uh, that'll be out thisfall and I'm really excited
about it.
Do you usually get to pick yourown, illustrator?
gtyou know what.
So that really depends on thequality of a couple of things,
like it depends on your agent.
My agent always tries toadvocate for me to have as much
(15:35):
rights as possible, and thatincludes illustration rights,
insofar as having input, howit's typically worked.
So there have been a few dealspicture book deals I've had, or
things that involve art wherethey pick someone for me and
they're just like this is who'sillustrating it, and I'm like,
oh, that's news to me, okay.
Other times, however,especially with my agent
(15:58):
advocating, I'll get to look atportfolios for, say, like their
top three choices and say I wantyou to approach this person,
like this feels right to me, andthen this is my second choice
In the case of how to Spot aFairy.
That was how that was done.
Lola was my first pick and I waslike I really really need you
guys to get her for this projectand it's not announced yet, but
(16:22):
probably there are going to be.
It's probably a series, thereare probably going to be more of
these books and more art andit's probably a whole concept.
So, um, I'm really lookingforward to seeing more of what
she does.
I've actually maybe seen somesketches for a second, something
that's going to follow, so whatare the essential elements of a
good picture book?
J. D. Myall (16:42):
What are the essential elements of a good
picture ?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (16:44):
cThat is That a great question.
So picture books I always tellpeople they're actually harder
to write than novels, whichsounds weird, and I know, of
course novels take longer, butpicture books, oh my gosh.
(17:06):
Nowadays kids attention spansare really short and parents are
tired at night when they'rereading to their kids.
So, like the ideal length of apicture book, you're looking at
500 to 700 words.
That is not a lot of space.
That is very small.
That is a few pages at most,and in those 500 words you have
to have an entire character arc.
You have to introduce your maincharacter.
They have to have a problem.
There's a story problem, theyhave to try to resolve it.
(17:26):
You have to introduce your maincharacter.
They have to have a problem.
There's a story problem, theyhave to try to resolve it.
And then you have yourresolution and your denouement
and wrap up.
You have 500 words.
That is very, very, verydifficult, and so what ends up
happening is every single wordhas to carry so much weight.
I myself am a picture bookwriter, I am not a picture book
(17:47):
illustrator, and so for me, I'dsay one of the elements of a
good picture book text isactually keeping that in mind
when I write a picture book, Iam writing half the story and so
I think that's a really goodelement of the text is it's
telling half of the story,because I'm literally letting
the illustrator carry the otherhalf.
(18:07):
I need to make that text openenough to where they are also
telling the story and that theirillustrations are adding detail
and depth to what is happeningis a very difficult thing.
Not only to compress a wholestory into 500 words and make it
satisfying, but also to knowthat somebody else is going to
(18:30):
be telling the story alongsideyou and to leave room for them
to have creative freedom also.
That is an art.
I think picture books are very,very challenging.
You know things like when wetalk about elements of a great
picture book.
It used to be that rhyme wasvery popular.
I've seen that like come and gotime and again.
I wouldn't necessarily say andthat a great picture book has to
(18:51):
rhyme.
But I would say that every wordhas to carry weight and that a
good picture book text allowsfor the illustrations to carry
the story.
J. D. Myall (19:01):
I love that.
Since you brought up fairiesearlier, let's get into some
magic system questions.
What makes a good magic system,and can you explain for people
who haven't read Reign of theFallen what the magic system is
like in that series?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (19:27):
start with the first part of that.
So what makes like a solidmagic system For myself?
As someone who grew up readinga lot of fantasy and you know,
as a kid I actually read a lotof adult fantasy that's what I
was drawn to.
I have time and again beenimmersed into very complex
worlds where the magic system iseither never clear to me or,
you know, it's vast, it'soverwhelming and it's too vague.
(19:49):
I would say one element of agreat magic system is
specificity.
I would encourage an author whois working with a magic system
to be as specific as possible,and in particular, when we talk
about magic, magic has a cost,and I think that this is a very
important concept when we'reconsidering a magic system.
(20:09):
That magic has a price, and Ithink that it's really important
and I did this in reign of thefallen to like consider the the
physical or emotional toll thatusing something that is this
force beyond us takes on us,because magic to perform magic,
magic is taking something fromyou, and so I think that a good
(20:31):
magic system considers theconsequences of using that magic
.
Again, I also think it isspecific, and I think that one
way to do that is to pick acentral theme or topic that is
very relevant to your story andto your characters and to then
shape your magic system aroundthat.
So, in Reign of the Fallen, themagic system I wanted to, again
(20:54):
keeping in mind the body andthat it's human beings who are
wielding the magic.
Their magic system is based ontheir eye color, but it isn't
assigning arbitrary powers to aneye color.
What it is is that eachdifferent eye color is born
innately.
(21:14):
All people that have that eyecolor are born with the ability
to see something that the othereye colors don't see.
So, for instance, in Reign ofthe Fallen, people with blue
eyes see doorways into the landof the dead, into the spirit
world.
People with other eye colorscannot see that.
Thus they cannot access thisform of magic.
(21:36):
And so that is.
I went through the usual eyecolors in the first book.
In the second book I get intothe questions that teens often
have for me when I go to schoolevents.
The first question they alwaysask me at high school is what
about people with like it'scalled like, heterochromia,
(21:58):
where they have two differentiris colors?
And I'm always like read booktwo, because you will meet
people with some differentabilities and you'll see that
the magic actually stays kind ofconsistent, what they can do
with knowing their eye colors.
So I do address sort of thosewhat ifs in the second book,
which is you know.
So I think a good magic systemreally thinks through
(22:20):
consequences and thinks throughhow it impacts the world.
In Reign of the Fallen one ofthe central themes is death and
so a lot of the the overarchingworld building is shaped around
death and different differentcultures and religions,
practices like in our world,surrounding death.
(22:42):
I pulled from many differentgoals, yeah.
J. D. Myall (22:51):
I love that.
How do you handle expositionand fantasy without overwhelming
readers?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (22:53):
Oh my goodness, that is a great
question and how I like to open.
When I hear that question, how Ilike to open, it is with a
piece of advice that I was givenwhen I was starting out.
That has always stayed with meand, to correctly attribute it,
this was advice from editorCheryl A Klein, formerly at
(23:15):
Scholastic.
I don't know where she is now,but here's what this editor and
it's brilliant.
She said that when you look ata scene on the whole and I think
this is especially relevant forfantasy when you look at a
scene on the whole and I thinkthis is especially relevant for
fantasy when you look at a scene, every scene should be an equal
mix of action, dialogue anddescription.
So if I were to look at a sceneand I've hit you with, like,
(23:39):
several paragraphs of expositionin a row, some of that's going
to have to get cut and come out.
If you're bored, if you're infodumping, your reader is bored,
they're bored too.
It takes work to refine thatbalance.
But action, dialogue anddescription If you can try to
(24:00):
make sure that you areseamlessly weaving those three
elements through, you won't behaving long paragraphs of
exposition.
Those should definitely bebroken up by those other
elements.
J. D. Myall (24:13):
What advice do you have to writers on developing
their own fantasy worlds andmaking them unique?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (24:19):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I've done Reign of theFallen.
I developed my own.
That's a second world fantasy,so that's where I literally
built my own world from scratch.
Um, there are a lot of greatresources online you can access
that will ask you questions thatyou can sort of think through.
That that will help set yourworld apart once you can answer
(24:40):
them.
Um, again, I think that sort ofpicking a theme that is central
to the plot, to your narrative,and shaping the world around
that can be wonderfully distinct.
So, for Rain, it was death, andI researched all these different
death rituals and I was likewell, what would this look like
in practice?
So dead people right, they'rewalking around.
(25:04):
What does that look like?
Well, I thought to myself,death, it probably smells.
And so the dead people theywear herbs on their person, they
wear little satchels of herbsand perfumes to try to smell
better, because death is decay.
Creating a believable world isreally in the details, is what
I'm saying.
It's about thinking through themost minute thing.
(25:25):
And then, how does that affectthe whole culture?
How does that shape thesepeople Like, how do the magic
systems or the things thatyou're trying to express through
this world.
How do those affect peopleevery day?
It's really in the details, andso I like to keep a binder with
my world building details.
That was especially helpfulwith Reign of the Fallen because
(25:46):
there was a sequel.
They bought two books at onceand by the time I went to go
write that sequel I hadforgotten so many things.
You forget.
You're living life, life's hard, you forget things.
And so I sat down to write thesequel and I said to myself man,
some fan is going to yell at mebecause I'm going to get
somebody's eye color wrong.
(26:07):
I was going to throw off thewhole book.
So I kept a binder with all ofthose world building details and
referred back to it frequentlyas I wrote.
I think that is a reallyhelpful thing to have all your
stuff gathered in one place.
But you know, you can alsowrite something set in the real
world and make it your own.
I also write historical fantasyand you know, for that I wrote
(26:30):
a book that has sea monsters.
I've written books that havefairies.
I basically did a lot ofresearch and created my own
fairy lore.
I created my own sea monsterlore based off existing monsters
from different cultures.
So lots of research and lots ofdetail.
J. D. Myall (26:48):
Okay, that leads me to one of our questions in the
chat.
Sure Seth wanted to know whatis your research process like
and do you have any favoriteresources?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (27:02):
Oh, that's a great question.
So let me start with researchprocess and I'll circle back to
resources.
Remind me.
So it is really different forevery single book.
It depends what I need toresearch.
So I wrote a book called Fearthe Drowning Deep.
That book was set on the Isleof man.
Well, I've never been to theIsle of man.
(27:24):
I am Irish.
I've been close to it, haven'tbeen there.
It's really hard to get a boatover.
So what did I do?
I bought books from a localbookstore on the Isle of man and
had them shipped here andwaited three weeks for them to
arrive.
I educated myself on theirculture and their beliefs.
I read about their language.
When I was like trying todevelop character names, I
(27:46):
actually pulled census data fromthe time period I was writing
in and cobbled together names.
That way, since I hadn't beenthere, I went on YouTube and I
would watch.
There is a famous motorcyclerace that takes place on the
Isle of man and I would watchthose motorcycle races, not for
the bikes but to look at thebackground scenery, because they
(28:08):
were driving the whole islandand thus I was getting to look
at the beaches and look at theterrain and be able to better
describe it.
Also, the reporters who reportthat event are Manx and I was
able to listen to their accentsso that I could better write it.
Yeah, it's really unique toevery book and what it what it
means.
I wrote a book that's a ghoststory.
It involves a girl going to athis old crumbling estate and
(28:32):
she volunteers to help turn itinto a museum.
My family that is a historicalmuseum and for that one I went
out to my family's house and Italked to all the volunteers.
So it really depends on thesituation, on what the book
needs.
(28:53):
Insofar as writing resources,things that I would point you to
that I think cover a lot.
If you are querying agents, youare going to want to look at
Query Tracker.
If you are querying agents, youare going to want to look at
Query Tracker.
I think the forums at AgentQuery Connect are fantastic.
I critiqued a lot of queriesthere and had my own query
(29:14):
letters to agents critiquedthere.
That was very helpful.
A good general writing resourceand forum would be Absolute
Write.
I highly recommend their forumsas well.
J. D. Myall (29:25):
So Carl wants to know.
Carl says in a picture bookproject, who starts first, the
writer or the illustrator?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (29:36):
And do you ever do it at the same time?
Is it in parallel?
So in my own experience andbased on my like larger
understanding, it is neverparallel parallel.
So what happens is I write thetext first and typically I have
that text edited with the editorand completely finalized before
they hire an illustrator.
(29:58):
Now, what I and during thatprocess, when?
So then they come in, they gethired and then they're
illustrating.
Typically I have no contactwith them.
Occasionally I will.
I have type 1 diabetes,sometimes called juvenile
diabetes, and I wrote a bookabout that for children who are
newly diagnosed and living withthe disease, and for that the
(30:20):
illustrator consulted with meabout what the medical devices
are supposed to look like.
Illustrator consulted with meabout what the medical devices
are supposed to look like.
So there are times where it'snecessary, but typically
typically no, I have noinvolvement with the illustrator
and typically my end is donefirst.
So there is a finalized textfrom which they are working and
I will sometimes leave likerelevant notes underneath lines
(30:41):
of text if it's really important.
J. D. Myall (30:42):
So Okay, seth had one more question about your,
your notebook that you mentionedearlier.
Seth wanted to know if you usetemplates or if you design the
notebook elements yourself.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (30:54):
That's a great question too.
I actually designed theelements myself.
I didn't use any kind oftemplates, it was, yeah, all
honestly, all pulled from mybrain, and I am one of those
type A people who's veryorganized and so, like I kept
like a name bank and I evenprinted that out and I just I
had all these referencematerials that I organized
myself, yeah.
J. D. Myall (31:14):
That's cool.
Carl wants to know can you givesome markers that define middle
grade in terms of appropriatecontent these days?
And these days it feels likethey're pushing some of the old
limits, and I think there was aquestion about is it good for
marketing too?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (31:34):
and yeah, okay.
So, uh, middle grade elements,uh, what defines like a good?
Uh, when we think about middlegrade, you know, for myself,
when I think of middle grade, Istill think of, say, the first
Harry Potter book.
That is very classically middlegrade.
Um, when I think of middlegrade, I have noticed that
(31:56):
middle grade is starting toinclude some elements like
romance, and I'm of I'm of mixedopinion about it because, like
for myself, when I was the ageof a middle grade reader, I
wasn't interested in romance.
I was, like for myself, when Iwas the age of a middle grade
reader, I wasn't interested inromance.
I was still reading the SaddleClub.
I didn't want to talk aboutboys or girls, I just wanted to
ride my horse and like singsongs and watch TV and hang out
(32:17):
with my friends.
So, you know, I typically tendto think of the middle grade
sensibility as having verylittle to no romance or, you
know, crushes would beappropriate.
I think, at middle grade age.
The middle grade audience, youknow we say middle grade and I
think a lot of us think middleschool.
Well, children will typicallyread older.
(32:40):
So, like, the kids who arereading middle grade are like 10
years old because they'rereading about 13 year olds and
they're like, oh, this is edgyand cool, but so you've got to
keep in mind the actual age ofthose readers, for who that's
targeted to are about 10 yearsold.
When I wrote my first middlegrade, it was actually a rewrite
of an older fantasy projectthat I had done, meaning like
(33:01):
for older readers, and when Irewrote it I had these two girls
.
They were sisters.
They were alone in the woodsand someone was watching them
and my agent goes no, she waslike nope, take that out.
She was like that is absolutelysinister.
They don't have a parent orguardian.
They're in the woods bythemselves and there's a creepy
person watching them.
No, this is not safe.
And she was like this is not anappropriate scenario for middle
(33:23):
grade.
So even I have had to learn totone down my voice and
sensibilities when it comes tomiddle grade.
Yeah, it's a.
It's a fine balance.
What I'm saying there is.
It's definitely tough.
J. D. Myall (33:35):
Another comment from a question from the chat.
Somebody wants to know have youever had an experience where
you were not quite satisfiedwith the illustrator, and how
did you handle it?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (33:48):
quite satisfied with the illustrator.
And how did you handle it?
Oh, good question.
Um, let me like I'm turning myhead because I'm looking over at
my picture books.
Um, I don't want to like nameany names specific.
Um, I have one where, like, theart is not a style that I would
have chosen, but theillustrator is very celebrated.
So, honestly, in that case,because they chose and it wasn't
anything to do with me, I just,you know, you kind of have to
(34:11):
be classy and say thank you Ifthere were an actual problem.
So, for instance, like workingon how to spot a fairy, I
actually asked for the fairiesto be inclusive, so I gave a lot
of hands on guidance.
There there's an elf in awheelchair.
I wanted the fairies to reflectlike real children.
So some of them have mobilityaids, some of them have like
(34:33):
part of a mechanical wing,things like this, so that real
children could see themselves.
Some of them have glasses.
They have a range of differentskin tones.
They're pretty cool.
But Lilla tried to include afairy with an insulin pump and
she misunderstood what that wasand I think, I think I went back
and forth with her three times.
I went through my editor.
(34:53):
I just keep everyone CC'dbecause we have clear
communication and yeah, so likeif there's an important issue
I'll push back politely in anemail.
I just keep good communication.
I tag my agent and then thatway my agent is also like
overseeing whatever issue isgoing on and keeping an eye on
it.
J. D. Myall (35:11):
Yeah, I love that.
A lot of people don't know thatyou have also done some
sensitivity reading and stufflike that.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (35:17):
I sure have.
I did a one of my favoriteprojects.
I did a sensitivity read forLittle Brown projects.
I did a sensitivity read forLittle Brown and it was for an
author I love and she hadwritten a book that included a
type one diabetic main character.
However, she herself does nothave type one diabetes and she
really cared and she had done aton of research and she wanted
(35:39):
to get it right and it was.
It really struck me that, like,even with the ton of research,
she'd got a lot of stuff wrong.
It's like when I started thatread, one thing that stuck out I
remember this, this charactershe wakes up and she's giving
her little brother his insulin.
He's the type one diabetic andshe says his blood sugar is 56
and she's going to give him someinsulin.
(36:00):
Oh my God, no, no, don't dothat, you'll kill him.
No, so like things like thisthat just you know, to me
there's second nature.
You know, even with herwell-intentioned research, she
still needed the guidance of asensitivity reader.
I've also used sensitivityreaders in my own work.
(36:20):
I have included, for instance,gender fluid on non-binary
characters and I use sensitivityreaders for that because that
is outside of my livedexperience and it's just amazing
the things that you learn fromother people's lived experiences
when they read and weigh in onyour book.
J. D. Myall (36:37):
I love that we were actually having a conversation
in one of our other craft chatsabout diversity and inclusion
and things of that nature andstories and a lot of people are
fearful of making their storiesdiverse because they're afraid
of doing something wrong.
And yeah, I've never shied awayfrom that.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (37:02):
it's always the thing is that's how the
world is and and you know, assomeone who has, like, if you
look at me, you might not know Ihave a disease, unless I
literally like, show you myinsulin pump, there's my
pancreas right, like, otherwiseyou wouldn't know, it's hidden
away and and I just there are.
There are examples of diversitywe see every single day and
(37:23):
there are ones we don't even see, and so, because of that, like,
I just try to be very mindfulof that and I feel like writing
should reflect the real world,even if we're, say, in a fantasy
setting and we are, becauseeven when we're in a fantasy
setting, what we're doing iswe're exploring real world
issues and real topics and thoseaffect everybody.
So, yeah, I feel very stronglyabout making sure that my work
(37:45):
reflects everyone, regardless ofthe setting.
J. D. Myall (37:52):
Love that.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (37:53):
There's a question in the chat Somebody
wants to know how you became asensitivity reader.
Ok, so that's a great questiontoo.
I know that there are somedatabases where you can sign up
to offer that service.
I don't specifically have thename of them in front of me so I
would have to go look that up,but I've got them bookmarked,
like I'm aware, and you cansearch.
You know, sensitivity readerdatabase and you can actually
like register and become one.
Like you can put yourself on alist so that you're visible so
(38:16):
people can reach out to you.
I did not do that.
This author was aware of me andI, of course, like when I'm
online, if I'm posting anythingI try to share about my life,
about my disease, what's hardabout that?
So she knew I was a type onediabetic.
She asked for her editorspecifically to get me if I was
willing to do the work.
(38:37):
So the publisher approached me.
J. D. Myall (38:39):
Yeah, love that, love that.
Let's move on to talking alittle bit about writing craft.
What do you think makescompelling characters?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (38:49):
So here's my trick with characters.
You know we we can talk about atlength, about main characters,
but this is my secret to get anovel where you like all the
characters or you feel something, they make you feel something,
I give every single character inmy books an arc, whether they
(39:10):
are the main character or thesmallest side character.
I give them, you know so, sidecharacter C.
They start the story this oneway and the events of the story
shape their life in this way andhere is where they end up and
before I start writing a book, Ithink, through an arc, even if
it's minor, through every singlecharacter, so that I know that
(39:32):
every character is going to likebe shaped by the events in the
story.
They're going to grow andchange along with the narrative.
So by the time you're done, allthe people that you're
interacting with, they'veinteracted with this plot and
these problems and they have allcome out changed.
And I think that that issomething people could do, or or
spend more time on up front, tocreate really dynamic
(39:53):
characters that really feel apart of the world and feel like
fully actualized people.
J. D. Myall (40:02):
I love that um what makes a good villain.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (40:19):
I love this question Villains.
For me it's I'm sure you'veheard this term, it comes up a
lot these days morally grayshades of gray.
I don't like.
I've lived enough life to knowthat most people are not wholly
good or wholly bad, and so Ithink when we consider our
villains, creating a villain,there has to be something about
them that either humanizes themor in some way helps the reader
(40:42):
relate to their motivations.
So, for instance and I'll justI'll use Rainy the Fallen again
as an example here real quickthe villain there, his
motivation, is actually reallygood If you take away the way
that he's going about it, whichis freaking terrible.
We don't murder and all thesethings.
He's going about it in ahorrible way.
His intention isn't bad.
(41:05):
The thing that he wants issomething that readers will
understand.
Their society needs it, and soI think that making sure your
villain comes across as human,as flawed, as having some
redeemable aspects or havingmotivations that aren't just
kill, murder, destroy, addsdepth to your entire novel.
J. D. Myall (41:32):
What are the essential elements of a good
first page?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (41:36):
I mean, this is just my opinion.
A killer first line.
Hook me with your first lineFirst page.
I'll get into first page in asecond, but seriously, forget
the first page.
Kill it with your first line.
Write me a first line that Iwill always remember.
Oh my gosh, I love a good firstline.
(41:57):
That'll determine you know howfast I'll get to something.
Spell me on that first line Agood first page.
On that first line, a goodfirst page.
I'm getting to know yourcharacter but I'm not
overwhelmed.
A good first page you are, youknow.
To me a good first page isn'tdropping me into the middle of
(42:19):
action.
A good first page isn'tdisorienting.
A good first page is reallypresenting you with like a hook
of what the story is going to beabout and it's reeling you in.
But your first page don't.
Tension should rise throughoutyour novel.
So your first page isn't themost tense page, but it's
interesting.
You're not confusing me with along paragraph of exposition,
(42:41):
but you are slowly easing meinto your character and your
world and introducing whatevercentral theme or problem, just a
little hint of it, enough thatI am interested and I am curious
to continue on to the next page.
That is a very fine balance.
That's a hard thing.
First page is uh make or breakit very true, yeah, the writers
avoid the saggy middle.
(43:04):
So for myself, how I avoid thatis essentially these days I
write to contracts, so thesedays I often work from a full
outline where I have the benefitof going through and seeing
what the events are going to bein the middle.
But you know, it goes back towhat I just said about we want
to think about rising tension,rising action, about rising
(43:31):
tension, rising action.
And for myself, what I'll do isI'll have like some index cards
or something with a couple ofscenes plotted out through the
middle of the book that I'm veryexcited to get to.
This is my trick.
Okay, so middle of the book,let's, whatever scene this is,
let's say it's a major characterdeath.
Well, I've got that on an indexcard and I know that's coming.
What that does is, as I'mdrafting, I am more and more
(43:52):
excited to get to these points,to get to these scenes that are
spread throughout the middle ofthe book.
It causes me to naturally havethe tension be rising because I
am excited to get there.
It helps to drive the storyforward.
It gives added momentum whenyou know what your big, exciting
scenes throughout the middle ofthe book are how do you craft a
compelling ending?
(44:15):
for myself.
I always know my ending aheadof time.
When I'm writing a book, I needto know the end, I need to know
the last line.
Having that in my head thewhole time allows me to stick
the landing, if that makes sense, and I mean so really, what I'm
telling you here is I pre-plana lot.
I know people talk about thepantsing and the fun, and it is
(44:36):
fun.
Uh, one of my hobbies isrole-playing, collaborative
writing with other people,because I can turn off my
internal editor, nobody'swatching, I can make stupid
typos and nothing has to makethat much sense except to the
person I'm writing with.
And so I still write for funand I do these sorts of things
where I am making things up onthe fly.
That's a great skill and it'swonderful to be able to write
(44:57):
quickly.
I think that helps me to draftquicker when I'm writing
professionally.
But the truth is, when I'mwriting professionally, a lot of
planning goes into it up frontto ensure that, like, all the
elements are going to worktogether and I can stick that in
.
J. D. Myall (45:12):
Are there website or tools that you find helpful
when you're drafting?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (45:17):
This is terrible, but honestly, I use
Microsoft Word.
I use.
I have a small laptop.
I have a Lenovo thing thatweighs like two pounds and I
will take it to the library.
Here's what's helpful to meDisconnecting from the internet
and distractions.
So, like the tools, my toolkitis essentially like not so much
(45:38):
a website, but it's writing inthe same place every day, or
writing at the same time everyday and doing little things to
clue my brain into.
Yes, adhd, it's time to focusnow.
So by doing that and by havinglike a routine with my writing,
I am able to more successfullydraft when I'm in certain places
One of my favorites.
(45:58):
I live across the street frommy local library and I often
write in their quiet room.
That really helps me to focus,surrounding myself with other
folks who are also like workingand quiet and focused.
It's just perfect.
And they have a rule aboutsilencing technology and so it's
like my distraction-free zone.
I'd say that's my biggest help.
I just, I honestly write inWord.
I have a lot of friends wholove things like Scrivener, but
(46:21):
I'm not fancy.
I have a lot of books.
I don't know Microsoft Word.
I don't do it every time, it'sold-fashioned but it works.
J. D. Myall (46:29):
How does your author-agent relationship work?
your agent agent help you decidewhat to write next?
Or do you like pitch ideas todecide what would be more
marketable, or do you just writeit and let her sell it after?
No, that's a great question.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (46:41):
I've actually done a little bit of everything
I have like old manuscripts.
I've given her that we've beenpitched and sold and revised
together.
I will sometimes say I'm goingto work on a new picture book.
I'll give her a list of ideasand we'll pick something that
we're both excited about.
These days typically I'mwriting for an editor, so like
they might have something.
(47:02):
I have a book coming out calledBigfoot's Big Heart.
It's a cryptid Valentine's Day.
It's with Viking.
It's really fun.
But how that came about was myeditor said hey, sarah, we're
short a Valentine's Day book forour list for the coming season.
Do you want to write one?
And I said oh sure, can it beabout Bigfoot?
And she said that's weird butokay, and that's how we got
(47:24):
started.
So sometimes it's aconversation between editor and
me rather than with my agent.
But as far as like my ownoriginal projects and what I'm
doing next, it's generallydriven by me and not all agents
are that way.
But that's my agent is calledCaitlin.
That is my relationship withCaitlin and that is why I like
(47:44):
being with her.
She covers all the age rangesand genres and so I feel
incredibly supported regardlessof what I choose to write.
So I feel a lot of creativefreedom with her.
We collaborate very well whenwe do get into the editorial
process.
I'm actually waiting on hernotes.
Right now.
I just wrote my first adultbook, my first original adult
(48:05):
book.
It's a big book, it's like 130K.
She's probably gonna tell me tocut like a third of this.
It's a monster.
But it's my first adult book.
It's a romanticist, so it'slike very spicy fantasy romance
with like very low worldbuilding, low magic.
I love it.
It's all about the characterdynamics.
It's called we Could BeAntiheroes and I'm really
(48:27):
excited about it.
So I'm waiting on her notes onthat right now.
I basically told her hey,caitlin, I'm getting a little
tired of writing YA.
I want to stretch my wings in anew direction and I want to
write some very spicy contentbecause I'm good at it and it's
something I do on the internet.
And she was like, okay, let'sdo it, but I love that freedom.
So that's what I'm exploringright now is breaking into adult
(48:48):
.
What do you?
J. D. Myall (48:53):
how do you view the future of children's and YA
literature?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (48:57):
Wow, that's a great question.
So nowadays, books have tocompete with so many other forms
of media that kids are reallyinto, and I think that's very
difficult.
Um, you know, so, realistically, books are going to have to be
very exciting, very attentiongrabbing.
(49:18):
Um, they might have to bebriefer for kids, um, but I see,
in general, I see kids and uhand YA as as moving toward more
and more inclusivity, which Ireally love seeing.
I think we're gonna.
I mean, when I wrote Reign ofthe Fallen, I didn't think that
it would sell because it has abisexual main character and I
(49:41):
didn't think that the industrywas going to accept that.
I thought that was going to getlike maybe go to like an indie
press that was like, you know,lgbt press or something.
I didn't think that it would be, and so I was at my imprint.
I was the first bisexual authorwriting fantasy and that sounds
so weird because it wasn't thatlong ago, but in.
(50:03):
So I think that came out in2018.
I think it sold in 2016.
So you look at, that's whatwe're 2024.
So it's like eight years In thespan of eight years now, so
many different, diverse books.
I can point you to so manybi-fantasy authors or characters
.
Now, in the YA space, in thekid-lit space, like we're gonna
(50:26):
see more and more and moreG-Points welcomed in.
I think that's going to becomethe norm and I think that's
really important because, like,I can't be your token bisexual
author, because sexuality is nota monolith and I always speak
for myself and so, like yikes, Idon't speak for a group of
people.
I can't, I'm not them, and so Ijust think we're going to see a
(50:48):
lot more inclusion, a lot moredifferent viewpoints.
I think there's going to bepressure to make things very
exciting, to compete with otherforms of media, and I think we
may see a lot more like mediatie-in type stuff Netflix shows,
crossovers, things like that.
J. D. Myall (51:04):
And as far as, like YA and adult're doing, you're
dipping your toes in the adultarena too.
Um, what do you think of thetrends?
What do you think is going tobe like based on what you hear
in the industry?
What do you think is going tobe the next thing, or what's
that?
Sarah Glenn Marsh (51:19):
yeah, I, yeah I read I read industry
newsletters and stuff.
Um, romanticy right now is allanyone wants.
An adult.
I will tell you that straightup and that's going to bleed
into YA.
Everybody wants romantasy.
So, basically, like fantasiesthat don't require complex magic
systems, like don't require alot of thought to like immerse
you into the world.
Fourth Wing is going to be anexample.
(51:41):
I know the second book got veryheavy on world building,
apparently, but Fourth Wing is agreat example of a romanticy.
Uh, some of the sarah j massbooks are also a good example.
Um, that's what.
That's what I know editors andbook scouts and everyone are
asking for.
Uh, they are looking for, andthey're also looking for things
that can, um, quickly sell asmovies and tv.
(52:04):
That's the other thing they'relooking for.
They're really looking for moreof the film tie and stuff that
I mentioned.
J. D. Myall (52:10):
Okay, anybody have any questions?
I see you're going to unmuteyourself and ask I have a
question Regarding your titles.
I thought the Bigfoot andBigfoot was really cute.
Were you able to keep yourtitles or did you have to sort
of compromise on some of those?
Thank you for the greatquestion.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (52:33):
Oftentimes I'm able to keep them.
So, fear the Drowning Deep, theGirls Are Never Gone.
Reign of the Fallen I came upwith those.
Bigfoot's Big Heart I came upwith that.
Most of the time, yeah, I'vekept kept my own titles.
I will say the one time Ididn't was the sequel to Reign
of the Fallen ended up beingcalled Song of the Dead.
(52:53):
I think I sent that in as Riseof the Fallen because it's about
the dead people rising up and Iwas like, oh yeah, rise of the
Fallen.
I got my edits back and theywere like, by the way, the
book's called Song of the Dead.
Now we took over.
I was like, okay, that wasn'teven a title that I made up.
They were the book's calledSong of the Dead.
Now we took over.
I was like, okay, that wasn'teven a title that I made up.
They were like it's called Songof the Dead and I was like, all
right, but in general I've mademy own titles Like 90% of the
(53:19):
time.
Yeah, thank you.
J. D. Myall (53:24):
Anybody else have a question?
Hello, jump right in Hi.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (53:27):
Hi, sorry, anybody else have a question?
Jump right in.
Hi, sorry, you mentionedsomething having action,
dialogue and something.
When you're writing, I can'tremember the last line.
J. D. Myall (53:37):
I didn't catch the last line of when you were
talking and you said you want agood mix of action dialogue.
Thank you for the questionAction dialogue and description.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (53:45):
Oh, thank you for the question.
Action, dialogue anddescription oh, thank you.
Thank you so much surroundingscharacter yes, sensory details
that type of thing.
Thank you so so much.
I've been killing myself overwhat that last one was, because
I think it was very importantdescription yes, thank you,
thank you so much.
Thank you so much, thank you.
J. D. Myall (54:07):
Anybody else have any questions for Sarah?
Carl has one in his head.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (54:21):
Okay, Carl.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
So my question was when you give up on querying
when do you like, when do youokay, when you're like?
You know, just, it's stupid.
The world has spoken.
Sarah Glenn Marsh (54:29):
How do you know?
Yeah, okay, okay.
Well, I will say this becauseI've asked this before too, and
my friend Jody Meadows she's aNew York Times bestselling
author when I asked her thisquestion, you know what she made
me do?
She made me hold her first 16manuscripts.
She printed them all out.
She had 16 that got rejectedbefore she signed with an agent
(54:51):
16 books rejected before she gotthat, yes, and so she's made me
hold them.
Man, that's heavy, it's hard tohold that.
How do you know when to give upon querying?
Well, here's the thing If yourquery is getting you all those,
the problem is your query.
If you're getting requests formaterial from agents, then your
(55:15):
query is working and your pagessuck.
It may not mean the whole booksucks.
I mean typically and I sound soharsh, but typically what I see
is if the first couple ofchapters are off enough that all
the agents are being put off bythem, there are flaws in the
entire manuscript that are goingto need to be worked on right.
Those few chapters don't existin isolation.
(55:36):
So if again, if, yeah, if yourquery is just getting stopped,
you need to revise your query.
Your query isn't working.
I would be asking you have youlooked at a catchy log line?
Have you selected appropriatecomp titles for your book?
Have you crafted a summarythat's less than 200 words.
That's very attention-grabbing.
(55:56):
So, yeah, if you're gettingno's on your query, you need to
work on your query.
If you're getting no's onrequested material, you need to
go back.
Go to your critique partners,find new critique partners and
dig into your material again,because if you're getting to the
request stage, it's yourmaterial failing you, not the
query.
J. D. Myall (56:18):
Love that Any other questions?
Okay, where can everybodyconnect?
With you?
So, um, I am on Instagram atSarah Marsh author.
I'm technically on Twitter.
I will not call it annex.
I think it's silly.
Um, I'm on Twitter at SG,underscore Marsh.
(56:38):
I'm not typically there.
Sarah Marsh, author onInstagram is a great place to
find me, or my website iswwwsarahglennmarshcom.
Awesome, and you're also onFacebook too, if they want to
see adorable baby pictures, yeah, yeah, pictures of my dogs, my
birds and my daughter Dawn, yeah, Thank you so much, we
(56:59):
appreciate you.
Hey, thank you.
Thanks for all the wonderfulquestions.
It was really great being hereand I hope you all have a great
night.
Yeah, have a good nighteverybody.
Thank you for coming.
Thank you again, Sarah, youhave been brilliantly
informative.
Speaker 4 (57:11):
That wraps up today's craft chat chronicles with JD
Meyer.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to JD
JDMyall.
com.
That's JDMyall.
com.
(57:32):
While you're there, join JD'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
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