May 24, 2025 • 57 mins
Ever wondered how a former clown from Ringling Brothers transitions to writing a Joker graphic novel for DC Comics? Join us on this episode of Craft Chat Chronicles as we sit down with Kimberly Latrice Jones, a New York Times bestselling author and NAACP Image Award nominee. From her early ambitions of becoming a picture book author to co-writing a novel inspired by the civil unrest following Freddie Gray's death, Kimberly’s journey is both unique and inspiring. She shares intimate details about facing numerous rejections, the exhaustive revisions she endured, and the relentless promotion efforts that turned around the initial disappointing sales of her co-authored book.
Kimberly opens up about her unconventional career path, including stints as a professional boxer and production secretary for Tyler Perry, offering a fascinating perspective on creative perseverance. We discuss the art of storytelling, focusing on crafting suspense, the importance of pacing, and how to handle rejection constructively. Kimberly also breaks down her strategies for effective writing, emphasizing hard work over innate talent and sharing her go-to resources for aspiring screenwriters. From navigating complex entertainment contracts to the intricate process of turning a novel into a television series, there's a wealth of knowledge here for anyone looking to break into the creative industry.
Listen as Kimberly provides practical tips on writing with a partner, the benefits of using specific screenwriting software, and how to humanize narratives on racial injustice. She also discusses exciting upcoming projects, including a Joker graphic novel and the Aster Project, which honors victims of police violence through various art forms. Don't miss this episode packed with career insights, valuable resources, and inspirational stories that promise to fuel your creative ambitions. Tune in for an enlightening conversation with one of the most dynamic voices in literature and film today.
Keywords: Kimberly Latrice Jones, Craft Chat Chronicles, Joker graphic novel, DC Comics, New York Times bestselling author, NAACP Image Award nominee, Freddie Gray, civil unrest, rejections, revisions, promotion efforts, professional boxer, production secretary, Tyler Perry, storytelling, suspense, pacing, rejection, effective writing, aspiring screenwriters, entertainment contracts, novel to television series, writing partner, screenwriting software, humanizing narratives, racial injustice, upcoming projects, Aster Project, police violence, career insights, valuable resources, inspirational stories, creative industry, literature, film, screenwriting, screen, writing, diy mfa, mfa,drexel,drexel university, creative writing
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
(00:25):
writing journey.
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmayalcom.
That's jdmayalcom.
J.D. Myall (00:36):
On season one, episode nine of Craft Chat
Chronicles, we talk with NewYork Times best selling author,
kimberly Latrice Jones.
Join me and the DrexelUniversity Alumni Association
for this wonderful chat.
Hello everyone, today we have aspecial craft chat with my dear
friend, kimberly Jones.
(00:57):
Kimberly is an incrediblytalented writer.
She's written a New York Timesbestselling novel.
She's been NAACP Image Awardnominated.
She's a fabulous filmmaker.
She's incredibly brilliant, oneof the smartest people I've
ever met, incredibly humble anddown to earth, and she's just a
(01:17):
very sweet person all around,good to know and good to learn
from, because she is just agenius, a master at craft.
Welcome, kimmy.
Let's start with your literaryjourney.
Can you tell them the storybehind the story?
Author Kimberly Jones (01:38):
How did your current novel come to be my
current one, or the beginning,beginning, beginning.
J.D. Myall (01:42):
You know what Do?
Both Go to the beginning,beginning and then work your way
up to the current.
Author Kimberly Jones (01:46):
So the beginning.
Beginning was I initiallythought that what I wanted to be
was a picture book author.
That was my dream.
I did not realize that writingpicture books is the hardest
thing on the face of the planet,like people think, because it's
just like a few words, thatit's easy.
But writing picture books is,like, really hard and it's a
special skill.
So I've been querying a bunchof um picture books for a while.
(02:11):
I wasn't in the agency, and sothen my dear friend gilly siegel
, in around 2015, there was anincident after the death of
freddie.
Around the death of death ofFreddie Gray, there was an
article, a newspaper article,about a group of kids who got
trapped behind a policebarricade during the civil
(02:32):
unrest.
And so look, here's this storythat, as a mom, really moved me
but you know, as a middle agewhite woman, I don't think it's
my story to tell.
You know, would you be willingto write this story with me
about a group of kids gettingtrapped in the middle of civil
unrest?
And I was like, of course.
And so she and I started bangingout this book that at the time
(02:52):
we were calling the Neighborhoodthat was the original title for
it and we started working onthis book and what we would do
at first it was we always knewwe wanted it to be a dual
narrative where she would writethis white character and I would
write a black character in thesame moment, at the same time,
so you can see how differentlythey saw the night.
And what we did originally waslike I would write a chapter and
(03:14):
then she would write the exactsame chapter from her
character's perspective.
And we gave it to a bunch ofour friends and they were
basically like this is trash.
Nobody's going to want to readthis like this.
And were like all right back tothe jarboard so we went back and
we realized that it was likethe best way to do it because
people didn't want to read thesame thing two chapters in a row
, because it kind of takes themout of the story um is that we
would leapfrog it, so like Iwould tell a chapter from lena's
(03:37):
perspective and then campbell'schapter that would come next
would pick up in the night ofthe story where where l story
left off, and so by the time wegot our first draft together, we
were no longer calling itNeighborhood, we were calling it
Mass Disturbance, because welearned that that's what civil
unrest is called is a massdisturbance.
And so we shopped it around.
(03:57):
We were able to get an agent.
We started writing this in 2015.
We didn't get an agent until2017.
We got an agent in 2017.
It took her like a year to sellit.
Matter of fact, it was the endof 2018, it was like december of
2018.
Um, after 15 rejection lettersfrom publishers and editors,
finally, sourcebooks was likeall right, I take your little
(04:19):
trashy books and fix it.
So, uh, it was.
It was trash at that stage.
It had 23 more drafts afterwhat you know what I mean.
and so, um, yeah, so we, we soldit to source books.
It came out um, you know,that's a.
You know, when you'republishing traditionally it's a
(04:40):
long process.
We had to go developmentaledits and line edits and copy
edits and and acquisitionsdepartment had to figure out who
was going to sell, and thenmarketing and all this stuff,
and so when it finally came outin the world it came out in 2019
and it did okay, it didn't dogreat.
We took a very small advance,so it earned out fairly quickly,
but it definitely wasn't doing.
(05:00):
We were so humiliated.
One night we were at a partywith our publisher, with the
head of the publishing company,and she says something to the
effect at a dinner table, and wewere there with other authors
from source books who were alllike we were there with, like
you know, like Vita Lush, whohas sold a million copies of his
book and stuff like that, andthere she basically said in so
many words that, like, our bookwas a little bit disappointing
in terms of sales and we wantedto be like that Homer Simpson
(05:23):
meme where we like backed intothe bush, and so it's just like
what are we going to do to makethis work.
So Gili and I got on the roadlike we were the next hot rap
group and we would take anythingthat anybody would book us for.
We wouldn't turn down anythingIf they were like we want you
guys to come sign in my backyardfor my child's bar mitzvah.
(05:44):
We were like and we will bethere, you know.
And so we toured for six monthsrelentlessly.
We went to every libraryconference, we went to teachers'
conferences, we went to socialjustice conferences, we went
anywhere anybody would take us.
And then, of course, as youknow, in 2020, I post this video
(06:04):
during the George Floyd protestthat goes crazy viral posted by
Madonna, lebron James, oprah,ava DuVernay all these people.
And then people started diggingaround to see who I was and
discovered I had a book, andthis little book that had been
out for a year that thepublisher was a little bit
disappointed in, hit the NewYork Times bestseller list, yeah
, yeah.
(06:25):
So so you know, we, and fromthere we continued to write.
We wrote another, a second book, while we fly.
That did really well.
We wrote a short story, um, ina, in uh, an anthology called
game on.
And then, um, I got a newpublisher and they were like we
really love what you said inyour speech is that way you can
take the snapshot of what youwere talking about and blow it
(06:48):
out.
You know, and I was like, yeah,I could do that.
And so I wrote a book uh, howwe can win this one?
Um, how we can win race historyand changing the money game
that's rigged.
That took the snapshot of thatsix minute video and blew it all
the way out.
I call it my reparationsmanifesto.
J.D. Myall (07:08):
Yeah, that's it, very cool, very cool.
Reflecting on all of yoursuccess, what do you think was
one of the things that you didright to help you get to where
you are now?
Author Kimberly Jones (07:24):
I failed a lot, like I think a lot of
people are afraid to fail.
You know I got, I am, I am.
You know I'm a neurodivergentkid.
You know what I mean.
I have I have ADHD.
So I've, you know, focused, youknow ability to process,
needing dopamine to do things.
You know it affects the way younavigate life.
(07:46):
I keep saying I want to write amiddle grade novel about a kid
with ADHD.
I'm going to call it Busy Body.
But you know so I would trythings and if it didn't give me
the proper amount of dopamineafter a while I would be like
all right, that failed and Iwould move on and I don't feel
any way about it.
And so I've tried a lot ofthings in life and I've been
(08:07):
successful at some things andI've failed at other things.
But you know there's a, there'sa blessing in every lesson and
every fail is really a lesson.
And so I've learned so much andI've taken so much away from
each moment, from each failure,and I've lived.
You know things that I'm notproud of, but one of the things
I can proudly say that I'm proudof is that, like I've lived
(08:30):
fearlessly in the sense that,like I try things that most
people don't think about.
You know, when people find outthat I was, you know, a clown in
Ringling Brothers and Barnumand Bailey Circus, they're like
how did you do that?
I'm like I flunked out ofcollege and my parents said you
had to go to school.
So I went to clown college andthen I toured with a ringling
for him.
I met a boy who I thought wascute and I wanted to get in
(08:52):
better shape and I started goingto the boxing gym with him
because he was a retired boxer.
And after being at the boxinggym with him for months working
out, his friend said that girl'sreally strong.
I think she could take a fight.
And I became a professionalboxer.
I won the California GoldenGloves.
So like I just, I just do.
(09:12):
I don't recommend this tochildren, but I just have like
lived by the seat of my pantsand like floated around and did
whatever and it's landed me insome amazing places.
I've got to work with someawesome people.
I mean, I got to work for TylerPerry just because I was
unemployed and called a friendand was like, can I get a job
wherever you are?
And she was an older whitewoman and this is pre people
really knowing Tyler in the waythat they do now?
He had just come off of theplays and was just starting
(09:35):
movies and she was like yeah,I'm working for this amazing
young black man.
She's like you should come overto the office tomorrow and fill
out your start paperwork.
And then I pulled up and it wasTyler Perry Studios and I
became his production secretary.
So I just have like had no plan.
To be honest, I just likefailed up.
J.D. Myall (09:56):
You speak multiple languages and everything you do
all kind of like really fabulousthings.
Author Kimberly Jones (10:03):
Korean and Bulgarian.
J.D. Myall (10:10):
Yep yeah, fabulous thing.
Korean and bulgarian yep yeahum focusing on craft.
Author Kimberly Jones (10:13):
Can you tell us a little bit about your
writing process?
Yeah, I go in knowing that.
I go in um telling myself thatI'm a shitty writer.
And I do that by design,because I'm just like.
If I tell myself that I'm ashitty writer, I have zero
expectation.
I have no desire to be a shittywriter.
I have zero expectation.
I have no desire to be a greatwriter, only to be a great
editor.
You can't edit a blank page, soI put shit on the page and let
it go, that's it, that's mywhole plan.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
And I am a plotter.
Author Kimberly Jones (10:40):
I cannot paint.
I've lived my life by the seatof my pains, but I can't write
that way.
So I write extremely detailedoutlines.
I start writing.
I really and I have hadoutlines that were 20 pages long
.
Yeah, every chapter has like 40bullets.
(11:00):
We write out all the beats likea screenwriter.
J.D. Myall (11:04):
That's cool how do you strike a balance between
character?
Speaker 4 (11:09):
oh go ahead.
J.D. Myall (11:10):
I'm sorry I can't hear you.
Sweetie, you're broken up.
Your hair looks.
Oh, thank you, darling, can youhear me now?
I can hear you now, thank you,thank you.
How do you strike a balancebetween loss and likability?
Author Kimberly Jones (11:28):
In characters or in my life.
J.D. Myall (11:29):
In characters.
You're so silly In characters.
Author Kimberly Jones (11:36):
Yeah, like, because I have a theory
that your character doesn't haveto have likable qualities, a
theory that your characterdoesn't have to have, uh,
likable qualities.
Like, actually the charactersare more interesting if they
don't have likable qualities.
You just have to put them insituations where people want to
see them win, right.
So it's like you can be acompletely flawed character.
(11:59):
But if you're in a scenariothat we've all been in and we're
like, no, I don't care, youknow, short of being a mass
murderer or whatever, it's likeI don't care about the fact that
you're, you know, insecure orthat you had a mean girl moment,
or that maybe you said someinappropriate things.
(12:45):
No-transcript on the face of theplanet.
But who do we all have beefwith in life?
Politicians.
So because he was juxtaposedand the enemy of the politician,
we put him in a situation wherewe're like, yes, I know he's a
murderer, yes, he's having a badday, like he's having a bad day
(13:06):
, he is the worst person ever.
But you're like I don't want tosee these slimy politicians in
this movie, when I'd rather seethis shady, murderous, infidel
win than see these creepypoliticians win.
J.D. Myall (13:22):
And it didn't hurt that he was eye candy too.
That made it easy to root forhim, not right?
What do you think makes acompelling villain?
Author Kimberly Jones (13:33):
You know what I'm writing right now?
Do you know what I'm writingright now?
None of you on this none of the19 of you can tell anybody
about this project because ithasn't been announced yet.
I'm writing the Joker right nowfor dc, right?
Oh, so I'm when are?
Speaker 4 (13:48):
you gonna announce because yeah.
Author Kimberly Jones (13:51):
So I think they're gonna announce in
like two months but I'm writing,writing his origin story for dc
comics.
I'm writing him when he was 15,right?
So first of all, let's talkabout the fact that villains
always have the best outfits.
Batman is running around inunderpants.
The penguin is in a full tuxedo.
Usually one villain doesn'thave extremely impeccable
(14:17):
fashion sense.
I can't name one.
They're always dressed to thenines.
I think the other thing thatmakes a villain compelling is
giving them a why.
Why are they like this?
Because the thing is, eventhough you're rooting for your
hero and even though you don'twant them to win, the only
difference between a villain anda hero is that they usually
(14:41):
both have really traumaticthings that launch them into
their story, but one chose toavenge themselves and the other
one chose to avenge for others.
So your hero is like I want todo what's right so that this,
(15:02):
what happened to me, neverhappens to anybody else.
And your villain is like I'mgoing to make everybody who
either was involved or remindsme of the people who were
involved pay.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Love that, love that, love that.
J.D. Myall (15:23):
Suspense is often key in storytelling.
How do you weave suspense intoyour work?
Author Kimberly Jones (15:32):
the best way to read suspense into your
work is to tell the audiencewhat's happening, but don't tell
your characters.
So if I tell the audience thatthe killer is under the bed but
I write the character to notknow that the character is under
the bed, that builds thesuspense.
(15:54):
Because when that characterwalks into the room and I'll
take this, I'm a filmmaker aswell, so this is like a more
visual point but if I have thatcharacter walk in the room and
you, the audience has seen Jasonunder the bed and the shot that
I give you is Jason under thebed with the knife, and now I
see the free, bare ankle of theperson walking into the room oh,
(16:16):
my God, the suspense with theknife.
And now I see the free, bareankle of the person walking into
the room.
Oh, my God, the suspense iskilling you because you're like
are they going to realize he'sunder the bed?
Is he going to slice theirankles and they're going to have
to fight for their life?
Is he not under the bed anymore?
Like, has he moved now?
And when they look up under thebed, he's gone and now he's
behind them.
To me that's the best tool tobuild suspense is to tell your
(16:37):
audience everything, but to tellyour character nothing.
J.D. Myall (16:41):
I love that.
That was good.
How do you ensure tension inthe story?
What are your tactics forkeeping tension in your
narrative?
Author Kimberly Jones (16:53):
The best way to keep really good tension
in your narrative is pacing.
This is where you can't like beso in love with your baby, with
your story, that you're notwilling to gut it, because a lot
of times what is causing you tolose the tension in the story
is like too much language inbetween the inciting incidents,
(17:16):
um, and not like the biginciting incident of the story,
but the inciting incidents in achapter, you know what I mean.
Between that and then how they,how they get over it and what
their end result looks like.
So like I have a technique,gilly, and I have a technique
that what we do is when wefinish a book, we'll give it to
our friends who are not in thepublishing world, who are not,
(17:38):
you know, fellow writers,English professors, anything
like that, but people who weknow are hardcore readers, who
read this type of stuff all thetime.
And we use what we call the CBDmethod and we tell them we'll
print them a hard copy and we'llsay anytime you're confused,
write a C in the margin.
(17:59):
Anytime you're bored, write a Bin the margin, and anytime you
just don't care, write a D inthe margin.
And so we use that to know that.
If they are, if they areconfused, then that means that
we need to clean up the language, aren't?
If they are confused, then thatmeans that we need to clean up
the language.
If they're bored, then we haveto ask ourselves if this section
(18:20):
even makes sense.
Is it pushing the narrativeforward or do we just need to
gut it?
And if they just don't care,that means whatever we're trying
to tell we're not telling itcorrectly.
And we find that if we gut itby the CBD method, especially
when we get that back from likefour or five people, I mean we
don't do it for everything thatpeople say.
You know we take what we wantand leave what we don't want.
(18:40):
But if we're seeing a C almostconsistently in the same places
from people and the B and the Dlike that, then we know that we
are not properly building thetension.
Because you know, tensioncauses investment and if people
are bored or don't care, thensomewhere in there we're losing
their investment and the tensionis incorrect.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Love that, love that, love that.
J.D. Myall (19:06):
The journey of becoming a writer often involves
a lot of rejection.
You talked about gettingrejected by publishers at first,
before your book sold.
How did you deal with rejectionfrom querying to rejection on
submission?
Author Kimberly Jones (19:19):
I'm gonna , I'm gonna have to admit that
like I'm kind of like a littlebit super spoiled trying to get
some more light over here um.
I'm a little bit super spoiledin that by me going out as an
author and I can talk aboutrejection.
That was very different as afilmmaker, but as an author I
was a little bit spoiled in thatI was on this mission with Gili
(19:40):
, so I had a partner.
So on the days when I was downand feeling beat up, she might
be up and she might have to belike come on, little Ting Ting,
come over to my house, let meget you some tea, because you
know, you know this about us, jd, she cooks for me to motivate.
She'll come over to my houseand I'm going to make you one of
(20:02):
your favorite dishes, andAguili is Jewish and I love her
matzah soup.
So she might make me somematzah or whatever and pick me
up.
But then there were days whereshe was down, where I had to
give her a speech and be likelisten, you know, we only need
one, this wasn't our, we onlyneed one.
Yes, this wasn't our one.
Yes, but we're fine, we'll beokay, you know.
(20:22):
So we were spoiled in thatsense that we had each other to
lean on through that process andit usually, consistently, was
like that If one of us wasfeeling down.
The other one was like no, no,no, they were the cheerleader,
like we got this.
We just gotta stay the course.
We just gotta call the agentand think of some other people
editors we know that can be sentto, and you know that kind of
thing.
As a filmmaker, you never takethe journey of the product on
(20:47):
your own because it's such acollaborative.
You know art.
But as a screenwriter, whenyou're trying to get to the
point where you can get themoney to hire the crew, to bring
on the collaborators, that partis pretty lonely and there's a
lot of rejection.
I'll tell you about rejection.
It took me 20 years to get anagent as a screenwriter 20 years
(21:10):
.
And so, yeah, talk aboutrejection.
I was like shit, do I even?
Am I a suck at this?
Should I stop?
And what has helped me alongthe way was just creating right,
like making man.
I got some films that are soembarrassingly bad, you know.
But it's like just makingcrappy stuff with my friends and
(21:33):
seeing where we did it wrongand making it better the next
time and better the next time,and better the next time.
And in that act of doing um,you get moments of victory
because you know me and myfriends.
You know it took me 20 years toget an agent, but there were
times that our little projectsmade it into a film festival so
we got that moment ofencouragement.
You know we we made a short filmthat caused the CDC to make us
(21:58):
want to make a documentary forthem about HIV awareness, and so
we got that victory.
So the victories are in thedoing so.
Part of how you deal withrejection is literally just to
keep going.
I could tell you about almost30 years in entertainment and
you know I've worked ineverything from music and film
and all that stuff I havewatched over the past 30 years.
(22:21):
I have watched hard work beattalent every single day.
Every single day, I watch hardwork beat talent.
You could be the most talentedperson in the world If you don't
have the work ethic, if youdon't love it, if you don't
breathe it, if that's not whatyou would do, even if nobody was
paying you man, a kid with awork ethic will be the kid
(22:43):
that's wildly talented everytime.
Because, guess what?
The work ethic will grow yourtalent, but talent can't grow
work ethic talent, but talentcan't grow.
J.D. Myall (22:58):
During the time when you were starting out in
writing or screenwriting, werethere any tools or websites or
resources or festivals oranything that you found that
were really helpful that you'drecommend to people starting off
?
Author Kimberly Jones (23:08):
Yeah, I definitely.
I definitely use a lot ofanything Sid filled for
screenwriting like all of hisbooks, his workshops, his
classes.
Like Sid filled was my go toguy in terms of screenwriting.
I still take screenwritingclasses right now, even though
(23:28):
I've had overall TV deal withWarner Brothers and had shows on
Bravo and Tubi and Peacock andall these places, I still take.
I still take my teacher, derryTitan.
You guys can look him up.
They call him the film mechanicbecause he became very well
known in LA for being a scriptdoctor, for taking bad scripts
(23:49):
in Hollywood and fixing them orwhatever.
He does online classes.
But here in Atlanta everyquarter quarter he does a free
writing class at the library andit's like all these people who
are like writing their firstscreenplay, who have never
written a screenplay ever againin their life and then in me and
they're like.
They're like she's like gotboards and all this stuff.
(24:11):
Why is she in this class?
And and I'm just like ironsharpens iron Every time I take
that class I learn something new, not just from the instructor
but from the conversations ofthe other students and also
because young people listen.
I'm an old people but like Ilove to be around young people
because they teach me newmodalities and new systems and
(24:31):
new ways to do things and likehow stuff really works now and
what they want in the market andwhat they don't want to hear
anymore, what they don't want tosee anymore or, if they do want
to see it, how they want to seeit, and so I love being in
those classes and listening tolike all the fresh talent.
So people are ever in Atlanta.
They should take the free andit's free.
He does it through the libraryso that it's a free offering
(24:54):
like a four week course, andevery time he offers it if I'm
available to take it, I take it.
But he also has a book calledthe Film Mechanic which is like
a very simple 101 book that Iuse Now.
In terms of books, I still writewith all of my craft books.
Gili and I never start writingwithout breaking out our craft
(25:15):
books.
I still use on the filmmakingside.
I still use my Sid Field books.
I, gili and I never startwriting without breaking out our
craft books.
I still use on the filmmakingside.
I still use my Sid Field books.
I use Save the Cat On the bookside.
I use Save the Cat Writes aNovel.
If I'm writing romance, I write.
I use Romance in the Beat.
Gili and I are writing somemovies right now for Hallmark.
We found this like how to Writea Hallmark Christmas Movie book
(25:36):
on Amazon.
We've been using that so Istill use all of my craft books
when I work.
It just helps me to structureeverything love that um, what
library does that class at?
J.D. Myall (25:47):
if you know I'm gonna drag my daughter.
Author Kimberly Jones (25:51):
He teaches them at different ones,
so, like he's done it at thelibrary, at the one in mcdonough
, so he tries to do it whereit's like the alpharetta people
can go this time, or the city,but I'll send you his
information so you can.
Um, yeah, so you can uh, followhis web, his get his newsletter
and stuff, but he's doing anonline class right now that you
(26:12):
know people could take fromanywhere.
Okay, awesome.
J.D. Myall (26:16):
I could probably take the class myself too.
Um, what were some of thebiggest and lessons and
surprises you encountered inyour publishing journey and in
your filmmaking journey?
Author Kimberly Jones (26:28):
some of the biggest lessons I
encountered lessons orsurprisesons or surprises.
I'll tell you what I'll talkabout, something that is, I know
that is in this worldconsidered gauche, but I realize
now that it was consideredgauche for the benefit of
(26:48):
capitalism and the wealthy andthe one percenters.
I got the benefit of OG writersshowing me their contracts and
showing me how much money theymade.
I love that and let me see itbefore I sign my first deal.
A bunch of ogs, they there's agroup of them.
I can't tell their like secretidentity name, but they have a
(27:10):
group of them.
It's like a thing that they dowhen they're like come on little
tink, tink and they will sendyou like a zip file with all of
their contracts and so you cansee all the deal points that
they have and how much moneythey make and all of that kind
of stuff.
And that was a game changerbecause I realized it wasn't
that they were offering me badmoney, but they were offering me
(27:32):
bad deal points.
And what I've learned over myyears, on both the film and the
music side and the book side, isthat when lose or draw, you get
what you ask for, that everycontract is negotiable.
That you know when you hearthese stories of people being
like they gave me a really badcontract and they ripped me off,
(27:54):
like they gave me a really badcontract and they ripped me off.
Well, the truth of the businesswhich I don't think is a good
model, I think it's a shittycapitalistic model but the truth
of what it is is when someoneslides a contract across the
table for you, they're going toslide it across the table to you
with almost all of the benefitbeing to them.
It's up to you, your lawyer andyour team to negotiate that and
(28:15):
push back and go OK, you havethese hundred things 40 of them
I don't like, so I want toeliminate the 40 I don't like.
And there's 10 things in here Iwant that are not in here, and
so I want to add that and youpush that back across the table,
and then they will push backand you will push back and
you'll do that little dance witheach other, we'll salsa with
(28:35):
each other until you get down tosomething that everybody can be
satisfied with.
And I think a lot of artistswhen they come in the business
I've seen it in music, I've seenit in film, I've seen it in
books A lot of artists when theycome in the business.
(28:56):
One they're so enthusiastic andso excited and so happy to be
getting anything that they justwant to sign right away.
Two you're talking about tensof thousands, hundreds of
thousands, millions of dollarsfor a lot of time, people who
not even necessarily have beenimpoverished, but maybe have
lived a middle-class life, andthis is more money than they're
ever going to see in one chunkof their life, and they're
excited about it.
And so the other thing isthey're afraid request anything
(29:21):
but that the deal is going to goaway, because they don't
understand that the art ofnegotiation is an expectation.
They expect you to negotiate,which is why they send it a
hundred percent in their favor,so that they can start high, so
that as you guys negotiate down,negotiate down, negotiate down,
you'll find yourselves the bothof you in the middle.
We're not.
(29:41):
If I, if I, if I write acontract and I give you
everything that I think you wantand I still start negotiating
with you in the end like I'mgonna be lopsided, you know what
I mean.
So it's like you know theystart high and it's up to you to
negotiate.
And if there's anything I couldtell young artists I don't even
remember what the fuckingquestion was now.
But if there's anything that Icould tell young artists, it
(30:05):
would just be the deal is notgoing to lift off the table
because you ask for something.
The deal is not going to liftoff the table because you insert
your attorney or your agent oryour manager.
That is the nature of thebusiness.
They expect that.
It is not insult to the networkstudio or publishing house.
It is not insult to the recordcompany.
They don't think that you arebeing and here's the key you
(30:28):
better stay the pretty littleprincess doll that they just
want to see, create and make art.
And you let your people have thehard conversations.
When I'm on the phone with apublisher or network, all I'm
talking about is what I want tocreate.
I'm letting them see my publicpersonality.
I'm selling myself.
I'm talking about all the ideas.
I'm saying to them hey, we'regoing to make so much money
(30:54):
together, but when it comes downto the brass tacks and it's
time to start talking about thebusiness and what needs to get
done, there is not one networkstudio or publisher that has
ever had that conversation withme.
They have had thoseconversations with my management
team, my agents or my attorney.
Y'all go over there and fightthe good fight and figure out
what I need, and then, when it'sall said and done, you can
still look at me and still be inlove.
J.D. Myall (31:16):
Love that you mentioned earlier, your deal
with Warner Brothers.
How did that come to be?
Author Kimberly Jones (31:29):
So, after it's crazy, that video going
viral changed a lot of things inmy life.
So after I went viral, you knowpeople were trying to figure
out who is this girl.
Who's this girl with this crazylike sister soldier ponytail on
the side of her head?
Shout out to my pandemic here.
I was a mess.
But, um, you know peoplestarted researching me to figure
out who I were, who I was.
And you know Oprah had this liketown hall at the time and she
(31:49):
played my video and Ava DuVernayis talking about how she sent
the video to Oprah and all thesepeople and they have like a
whole thing about it.
And so when people started toresearch me, so you know Ava's
over at Warner Brothers, sopeople are listening to her
consistently post and talk aboutthis girl.
And Warner Brothers looks me upand they're like shit, she's a
filmmaker like.
She has won these filmfestivals.
(32:10):
She worked for Tyler Perry, shedeveloped being Bobby Brown for
Bravo.
She did these things.
And they were just like, uh, doyou want to come over here and
create stuff?
And I was like, sure, give me aboat ton of money.
And they were like fine.
J.D. Myall (32:24):
I was like, deal, love it um can you tell us a
little bit about the process ofgetting a movie on Tubi?
Author Kimberly Jones (32:40):
I know you did a lesson on that the
other day or not too long ago,on getting a movie on Tubi, yeah
.
So there are lots of well one,you can go Tubi Direct.
There are ways that you canjust send it over to Tubi
Directly and get it up there.
But then there are aggregators.
There are companies like CNSDistribution, glass Slipper
(33:02):
Pictures, maverick I am missingone, I'm missing a few, but you
have aggregators like that whohave a more connected
relationship with Tubi, wherethey have the kind of deal where
they are uploading thingsconstantly.
So Tubi is putting theircontent kind of in the front of
the line constantly.
(33:23):
So Tubi is putting their kindof in the front of the line.
It's like if you just gothrough Tubi's like direct
portal, you know it'll getuploaded at some point, whenever
, however, whoever knows, but itwill get uploaded.
But if you go through one ofthe uh, the aggregators, like
CNS distribution, glass Slipper,maverick um, the uh, the ones
like the ones like that, theykind of have like a front of the
(33:45):
line situation where it's likeanything that they're uploading,
you know is when they upload itit's going to be live within a
week or two, and so you knowthey're a middleman.
So you got to do a split withthem as well, but for a lot of
people it's worth it to not beclueless as to when your project
is going to come out.
To do that.
The other thing that I wastelling people is like there are
certain positions when you'remaking an independent film.
(34:08):
And let me tell you something Iknow people talk really bad
about Tubi, but I love Tubi andhere's why I love Tubi.
I've been making films for 30years and I know how hard it is
and I come from the era where weused to have to like use actual
film and take a razor blade andsplice and tape the film and
turn it into all of that to seewhere we are in the digital age.
And I you know, I worked in themusic business for years.
(34:28):
I was Dallas Austin's assistant, so I was around during the TLC
heyday.
I was a roadie for the WhiteStripes and so I'm watching now.
In the last 10 years, the filmindustry looked like how the
music industry looked in the 90swhen everything went digital,
and this is when yourbillionaires in music got made.
(34:49):
This is when you get your TIs,your Jay-Zs, your Akons, all of
these people is when theindustry went digital and people
were able to not have to gothrough the gatekeepers of the
record company and it wasn'treal-to-reel anymore and you
could afford.
If you had a laptop and somedecent equipment, you could make
(35:09):
a record and you could get thesame sound that you did when you
had reel-to-reel.
And now we're in that sameplace digitally with filmmaking.
So I love that.
You have all of these filmmakers, especially all these little
hood kids grabbing their phonesand their cameras and they're
getting their friends and guesswhat?
These kids are out here in thestreets making these little hood
movies on their own and gettingthem up on Tubi.
(35:30):
And guess what they're notdoing?
They're not bopping you in yourfucking head, which is what
they probably would be doing,because the one thing we don't
want to face in this nation isthat poverty and crime are
bedfellows.
A starving person will commit acrime.
A well-paid person has nodesire to, and so you have this
whole generation of kids thatare finding a new set of income
(35:52):
through them for themselves,through to be.
Are their movies bad?
Is the sound bad?
Is the acting bad?
Is the script bad?
Yes, but who gives a shit aboutit?
From an ethereal point of youhave all these little kids that
are finding their way.
It's so beautiful to watch and Ilove it and I know how hard it
is to just get something doneand in the can and they're doing
(36:13):
it and so, yeah, I tell themall the time, like if there's
anything I teach them beyond,like how to physically get it on
there, I tell them that yourmovie is made in three ways
really.
One you have to have a solidscript, so I don't care if you
got the worst actors in theworld.
If the script is beautifullywritten, if the script is solid,
(36:36):
if you've done the work to geta solid script, that will show
up, and then that the movie ismade in lights and sound.
Don't worry about going to getthe next hottest rapper to be in
your film.
Stack your money up instead ofgiving them to that.
Get all the kids in theneighborhood and go get you a
real sound man and a real gafferlike that.
Because I'm telling you it alsoaffects how it moves in the
(37:00):
algorithm of the streaming appsof Tubi, of Peacock, of, you
know, amazon, of even YouTube.
The quality pushes it up andthat quality is not in I got a
little dirt in it.
That quality is that it's litwell and the sound is clean.
J.D. Myall (37:17):
Love that you do screenwriting too, On the first
page of a novel or the firstpage of a script.
What are the things that youthink are essential to getting
the audience's attention?
Author Kimberly Jones (37:30):
I think you start everything with a bang
.
It either needs to be a bang inthe language or it needs to be
a bang in action.
So if you're writing a verydeep introspective story about a
woman finding her way and youcan't bang it out with the
explosion, then you better bangit out with that language.
Um, and me and gilly's bookwhile we fly.
(37:51):
We toiled over that first linefor months and then what we
decided how we decided to openthat book was I will fly again.
And that again means you wantto know why she sang again.
What happened?
Fly again, why again?
Why did she stop flying?
You see what I'm saying.
You want people to askquestions on that first page,
(38:14):
because if you get them to askquestions, they can't stop until
they get an answer.
It's human nature.
That's why I think all filmschools should teach four years
of psychology.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
Love that.
J.D. Myall (38:26):
What do you think is the best writing advice you've
heard?
Author Kimberly Jones (38:31):
The best writing advice that I've heard.
I said it already.
Toni Morrison said you can'tedit a blank page.
Love that.
J.D. Myall (38:41):
You said you had some other projects coming out.
What do you have on the horizon?
Author Kimberly Jones (38:47):
So much exciting stuff.
I have a new podcast coming outcalled Country Rap Tunes.
It's me and Corey Moe and weare very disappointed as
Southerners in the way in whichthe South was left out of the
50th anniversary of hip hop.
So we're creating a wholepodcast called Country Rap Tunes
where we are going to gothrough the history of Southern
rap, of the 50th anniversary ofhip-hop.
So we're creating a wholepodcast called Country Rap Tunes
where we are going to gothrough the history of Southern
rap.
I'm so excited.
(39:08):
Corey Moe is an iconic,legendary producer.
He was the exclusive producerfor UGK.
He was best friends with Pimp Cwhen he walked into his studio
you actually see Pimp C's organis in the front of his studio
and Corey has produced for allthe OG Southern legends,
everybody from 8-Ball MJG toYoung Dolph to UGK.
(39:29):
He actually is nominated for aGrammy this year because he did
a lot of the production on thenew Killer Mike album.
He's the one who did thatproduction on the what's her
name?
From Memphis K Michelle, whenshe redid the Can you Stand the
Rain, that was a Corey Moeproduction.
And so, yeah, so me and C Moeare doing this podcast, country
(39:49):
Rapatune.
So I'm super duper, duperexcited about that and I have a
few other things that I don'tknow if I'm allowed to talk
about yet, but I'm excited aboutthat.
I'm excited about the Jokergraphic novel and I really love
you know.
Uh, first of all, I'm a formerclown and I love villains.
So when I had my meeting withdc, they were basically just
(40:10):
like we wanted kim jones graphicnovel.
We don't care what you want towrite, you tell us what you want
to write.
And they were.
I was like I want to write thejoker.
And they're like kim, you havethe run of the entire dc catalog
.
You want to write the Joker.
And I was like, yeah, why arey'all saying that?
Like, that's not like the bestthing in the world to write
(40:30):
thank you very much my guestwill take some questions from
you guys.
J.D. Myall (40:34):
Anybody have any questions for Kim?
Speaker 4 (40:37):
I can answer my question now.
I don't want to bust in frontof anybody.
Um hi, Kim, my name is Dionneand I have a question about,
like I know your first book hadto do with, like, Freddie Gray
and stuff like that and racialinjustice and a thesis project I
did from Drexel's MFA.
It had to do with George Floydand I like what I've done.
(41:01):
But I do worry, like is itgoing to be hard to sell that?
You know, having to do withprotests and racial injustice?
I mean, these are stories thatneed to be told, but I do worry,
like you know, are people goingto want to read these stories?
You know?
Author Kimberly Jones (41:17):
Yeah, people do want to read those
stories.
They just want to read them ina way that humanizes the story.
They want it to be palatable,in a way not to water it down,
because you know, I would neversuggest you do that but in a way
that you humanize the people inthe stories.
Oh, that's another project thatI'm working on.
I'm working on this projectcalled the aster project.
(41:38):
It's a creative project and oneof the things that we're doing
is we are taking people who havebeen slain by the police and we
are humanizing them by creatingart around them, and so we're
doing murals to them, we'rewriting records about them and
I'm over the anthology where wehave all these New York Times
bestselling authors that aretaking one family, sitting with
that family, learning about theperson's life, everything about
(41:59):
their life prior to being killedby the police, and they're
writing that person's biography.
And the reason why we're doingthat and the reason why that
work is so important and thework that you're doing is so
important, is because the reasonthese situations happen is
because the lack of people'sability to see the humanity of
these people, and so when youhave the opportunity to use your
(42:22):
pen to write them.
Do not write the story from theof a lesson of.
I'm going to teach you what'sright.
Tell a human story, tell astory of a person's triumph,
because the more specific youare, the more universal it will
be, because everybody has felthurt and pain.
I'll tell you a fun thing myfirst book.
(42:44):
I'm Not Dying With you Tonight.
We gave this book to a little15-year-old white girl and we
have Campbell and Lena who arethe leads Campbell's white,
lena's black.
They're both 17.
But Lena has a best friendnamed LaShunda black girl.
She's got her name LaShundaBlack girl.
That's in Lena's story, and wegive this book to this
15-year-old white girl.
(43:04):
She relates the most toLashunda.
You know why?
Because in the beginning wetell the story of how Lashunda
lives with her grandparentsbecause her mother died of a
opioid overdose.
So this Black girl was living atotally different socioeconomic
experience as her.
(43:25):
Though being so specific aboutwho LaShunda was and what her
lived experience is, this girlfelt she didn't feel connected
to Campbell, the little whitegirl who, dad, has a boat.
She felt connected to thisBlack kid who had walked the
same walk that she walked, hadlived a similar experience, and
she felt like the hurt on thepage was authentic to her own
(43:47):
lived experience.
So the more you just reallythink of it as writing a human
experience, the more relatableit is to all people.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
Thank you, I really appreciate that.
And if I could ask like thatreally touched me and that
really gave me something tothink about.
And I have one really quickquestion with the screenwriting
stuff, what software do yourecommend?
Author Kimberly Jones (44:08):
Final draft.
Well, I recommend two.
I recommend Celtics and Irecommend Final Draft for
different reasons.
I recommend Celtics because weare in a rough economy right now
and Celtics is free, so thereis a paid version to it, but you
can get a fully functioningversion of it for free.
Now, it's not going to be onyour hard drive, it's in the
(44:29):
cloud, you know that kind ofthing, but it's free.
But final draft is the industrystandard.
So when we send files, when Isend files to the studios, when
you're sending it to the head ofdepartments on a budgeted set,
they are going to be expecting afinal draft to file.
Speaker 4 (44:44):
Okay, thank you so much.
I appreciate you.
Thank you Anytime.
J.D. Myall (44:49):
I had a comment in the a question in the chat.
He said how differently did youfind the process of writing
solo versus writing with apartner, and were there any
particular challenges that youfaced in either of those paths?
Author Kimberly Jones (45:02):
I find it harder to write solo because of
my ADHD, because it's hard forme to stay on track, and so one
of the systems of ADHD is almostlike that, I hate to say it
that of a child is that I workbetter when I have a side by
side working partner and so,having a co-author, I finished
my books with Gili twice as fastas I do my solo books, just
(45:25):
because I'm having that partnerand having someone there to
basically receive dopamine from,of excitement and let's do it,
and the pressure of her seeingme not work and being with her.
So you notice about us, jd.
That's why she and I don'twrite like via Google or
anything Like.
We're not sending each otherGoogle files.
We, when we're writing together, we schedule out week after
(45:45):
week when we're going tophysically get together and we
sit side by side and write yes.
So I know, for most neurotypicalpeople it would be the opposite
, but for me it's like I am somuch more productive when I'm
writing with her.
J.D. Myall (45:59):
Jeanette has a question.
Speaker 5 (46:01):
Yes, hi, kim, it's really great to listen to you.
When your video went viral, Iwas working on an organization
called Color of Change.
It was a racial justiceorganization, yeah, and so, like
you, were the talk of thesummer, so it's been really
great to listen to you speak asa screenwriter.
My heart dropped when you saidit took you 20 years to find an
(46:22):
agent.
I was wondering what do youthink are some of the better
ways to either get an agent orbe seen, get your writing seen
as a screenwriter, because Iknow like in the program I
always talk about doing contestsbut I don't trust some of the
writing contests, so I waswondering about people have
(46:43):
different experiences, so whatmight be some other ways to do
so um, I'll say I don't knowabout doing contests, but
submitting screenplays toofficial festivals so like, yeah
, submitting scripts tofestivals so like looking at
things like ABFF, tribeca, onesthat you know, some of the
(47:07):
bigger ones that have ascreenwriting component that
takes like a physical scriptinstead of an actual project.
Author Kimberly Jones (47:12):
Those are great ways because one, a lot
of those usually come with youwinning money, and then some of
the other ones come with yougetting some type of deal or
some production out of it and,if nothing else, people who are
industry professionals,producers, student executives,
agents, managers, stuff likethat that are curating the win
for the festival are reading it.
So, although you may not win,that still doesn't mean that
(47:33):
they don't fall in love withyour writing and think I don't
care if this child wins or not.
I'm going to communicate withthis child on my own at some
point because I really like whatyou saw on the page.
So, not necessarily a contest,but definitely festivals are a
great way to put out there andagain, another great way to put
it out there.
We're in a digital age.
Girl, you got a whole differentlife than I did when I started
doing this back in 1993.
(47:53):
Shoot some shit.
Yeah, some stuff a shot.
Put it on the screen, get itdone.
Get together with your friendsall y'all.
Put y'all eight dollarstogether.
Y'all y'all serve somelunchables for craft services.
You get a.
You get a friend who does music.
You put him on sound.
Let him figure out how to do it.
You got you got a homie.
(48:13):
That's an electrician.
Tell him he is now a gaffer.
He's gonna like this thing foryou.
He need to watch a bunch ofyoutube videos.
Get your script together, put itit together and utilize the
TikTok series right.
So TikTok has that new systemcalled series that you can
monetize and that they will dospecial promotion for it if you
post the things to the series.
Write your own five minute perepisode TV series.
(48:36):
Take a weekend, shoot fiveepisodes, make yourself some
promo videos, put it out there,put it on your TikTok series.
You and your friends promote it.
Y'all host a launch party at abar with a bunch of friends and
then y'all host a Zoom launchparty or Facebook Live launch
party with all your friends andfamily members and just start
(48:58):
putting your work out.
My friend Bobby Huntley,amazing filmmaker you know how
he got his deal.
He kept going viral with hisfive-minute short films on
Instagram.
J.D. Myall (49:10):
Love it.
Anthony has a question.
Author Kimberly Jones (49:14):
Thank you for speaking with me, what is
the hardest lesson you had tolearn as a writer?
The hardest lesson I had tolearn as a writer was to not be
sensitive about my work Like Icannot be sensitive about it,
like I have to be open tocritique in a way, like I can't
be so in love with my baby thatI don't let my baby grow up and
I don't let it grow.
(49:34):
So that was like one of the.
That was one of the hardestthings that I that I learned.
And one of the second hardestthings that I learned was you
know, like you know, comparisonis the thief of joy.
Like my journey is my journeyand I have to walk it.
So I had friends that weregetting an agent before me.
I had a friends that weremaking the.
(49:55):
You know, I had friends that Idebuted with.
Usually, when your book comesout, you have a.
You know there's usually agroup that started with all the
debut authors, because we seeeach other's announcement in
Publisher Weekly and stuff likethat, and there's usually a
group chat that started with allthe people who are debuting
that year around the same timeand it's like you see your
friends who debuted with you getto make the list or get a
(50:15):
starred review or something likethat, and you're not getting it
.
And it's just knowing that yourjourney is your own.
And again, I can't stress thisenough that knowing that when
you work it and you figure outyour plan and you figure out
what works for you and you findwhat your audience is, then
you're going to be fine.
But like, nobody's journey isyours but yours.
Speaker 5 (50:39):
Very true.
J.D. Myall (50:40):
Thank you.
Anybody else have any questions?
Speaker 6 (50:44):
yeah, I have a question.
Uh, kimberly, nice to meet you,great to hear you it's nice to
meet you, I'm jonathan mountainla and I, you know I'm old
people too.
I started in 92 out herescreenwriting.
Um took me like 14, you know,10 to 12 years to get my first
agent, which didn't really workout.
But, um, I was curious becauseI'm ADD as well and I was
(51:04):
diagnosed very late.
I'm just curious with all thestuff that's out there, like you
were speaking of it to me.
It's overwhelming.
A lot of times it just catchesyou and you, just your attention
can get drawn to one thing oranother and I was just wondering
how you found ways to conquerthat part of yourself and to
stay focused on the task at handwith all that other noise as it
gets.
You know it's got noisier andnoisier with TikTok and
(51:24):
Instagram and Facebook and allthe stuff you do to promote and
what have you.
How you find that that?
Where do you?
What techniques have you usedto conquer that part of your
personality?
Use it to your advantage.
Author Kimberly Jones (51:35):
Yes, there is an entire chapter in my
book how we Can Win dedicatedexactly to that and I call it
the nine priorities for abalanced life.
And those nine priorities arecareer, home, transportation,
relationships, finances, healthand beauty, hobby, education and
(51:57):
community.
And about twice a month I sitdown and I write out those nine
priorities and I write outeverything I have going on in
each one and I can see where I'moff balance.
I can see where I'm top heavyin career and haven't done
anything for my community, whereit's like I've been overwhelmed
by family responsibilities andI've dropped the ball on my work
(52:19):
.
Stuff I haven't done any of myso I just use that system to see
where I'm top heavy, where I'mlost, where I need to fill in
the gaps, and then I just keepnotebooks everywhere where I am
constantly reevaluating thatlist and realizing what it is
that I'm doing.
And I'm not doing because Ineed to physically do it for
myself, because my brain won'tdo it for itself.
Speaker 6 (52:39):
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Yeah, it's a good, goodtechnique for so.
J.D. Myall (52:46):
Thank you, I appreciate that yeah, it's a
good, good technique.
Yeah, love that, love that.
It has been a pleasure.
Um again, kim, if you haven'tread her books, please pick them
up.
How we can win, why we fly?
Um, why did I blink on?
I'm not dying with you tonightfor a second, and I read that
one before anybody.
That's what I'm saying.
(53:09):
But, um, she's immenselytalented.
Author Kimberly Jones (53:12):
JD was one of our beta readers for I'm
not dying with you tonight soshe was one of the people who
gave us notes on how to fix itand it was brilliant.
J.D. Myall (53:21):
Like I um, I've done some beta reading from
Macmillan probably because ofyou, dear, because I worked on
your project, but I've done somebeta reading for them and I've
done beta reading for friendsand usually it feels like work
and it feels like you're tryingto help somebody, but that I
stayed up reading that.
I was up all night sending youFacebook.
Yeah, she's a brilliant writerand a great person, incredibly
(53:46):
humble, incredibly sweet, andyou didn't tell about the
Library of Congress while wewere tooting your horn.
Author Kimberly Jones (53:53):
No, yes, yeah.
So I got to serve on theselection committee for the.
National Ambassador for YoungPeople's Literature, and I was
on the committee that picked thefirst Asian ambassador in Jean
Yang.
J.D. Myall (54:06):
Awesome.
So yeah, she's incrediblyaccomplished and just brilliant
and wonderful and like I, saidpick up her books, see her films
and you know, hopefully youguys got a lot from tonight.
Is there anything you wanted tosay in closing, kim?
Author Kimberly Jones (54:22):
Yeah, just like keep writing, like I
don't believe in the term.
I learned this from watchingShonda Rhimes' Masterclass and I
was like I'm going to stealthat and keep that for myself.
She said that you don't aspireto write.
Writers write Now.
You can aspire to be published,you can aspire to get a deal,
can aspire for those things, um,but writers write and so just
(54:44):
keep writing.
Just know that even thegreatest writers in the world
are not the greatest writers inthe world, they're just the
greatest editors in the world.
Oh and fun.
One last.
Like um and this is not asecret, this has been announced
um, the next film project that Ihave, the thing that I'm
diligently working on right now,is we are turning we are
working with warner brotherstelevision turn I'm Not Dying
With you Tonight into a series.
(55:05):
So that'll be the next thingcoming yeah, and you do have a
lot.
J.D. Myall (55:09):
I appreciate you.
Um, thank you so much.
I love you sharing your wisdom.
Thank you to everybody who cameand again, thank you, kim.
Anybody else have any finalquestions before we close out?
Speaker 7 (55:23):
I can't see the hands because my screen that wraps up
today's craft chat chronicleswith jd mayor.
Thanks for joining us.
If you like the episode, pleasecomment, subscribe and share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
(55:44):
jdmayocom.
That's jdmayocom.
While you're there, join jd'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
Thank you.
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
(00:25):
writing journey.
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmayalcom.
That's jdmayalcom.
J.D. Myall (00:36):
On season one, episode nine of Craft Chat
Chronicles, we talk with NewYork Times best selling author,
kimberly Latrice Jones.
Join me and the DrexelUniversity Alumni Association
for this wonderful chat.
Hello everyone, today we have aspecial craft chat with my dear
friend, kimberly Jones.
(00:57):
Kimberly is an incrediblytalented writer.
She's written a New York Timesbestselling novel.
She's been NAACP Image Awardnominated.
She's a fabulous filmmaker.
She's incredibly brilliant, oneof the smartest people I've
ever met, incredibly humble anddown to earth, and she's just a
(01:17):
very sweet person all around,good to know and good to learn
from, because she is just agenius, a master at craft.
Welcome, kimmy.
Let's start with your literaryjourney.
Can you tell them the storybehind the story?
Author Kimberly Jones (01:38):
How did your current novel come to be my
current one, or the beginning,beginning, beginning.
J.D. Myall (01:42):
You know what Do?
Both Go to the beginning,beginning and then work your way
up to the current.
Author Kimberly Jones (01:46):
So the beginning.
Beginning was I initiallythought that what I wanted to be
was a picture book author.
That was my dream.
I did not realize that writingpicture books is the hardest
thing on the face of the planet,like people think, because it's
just like a few words, thatit's easy.
But writing picture books is,like, really hard and it's a
special skill.
So I've been querying a bunchof um picture books for a while.
(02:11):
I wasn't in the agency, and sothen my dear friend gilly siegel
, in around 2015, there was anincident after the death of
freddie.
Around the death of death ofFreddie Gray, there was an
article, a newspaper article,about a group of kids who got
trapped behind a policebarricade during the civil
(02:32):
unrest.
And so look, here's this storythat, as a mom, really moved me
but you know, as a middle agewhite woman, I don't think it's
my story to tell.
You know, would you be willingto write this story with me
about a group of kids gettingtrapped in the middle of civil
unrest?
And I was like, of course.
And so she and I started bangingout this book that at the time
(02:52):
we were calling the Neighborhoodthat was the original title for
it and we started working onthis book and what we would do
at first it was we always knewwe wanted it to be a dual
narrative where she would writethis white character and I would
write a black character in thesame moment, at the same time,
so you can see how differentlythey saw the night.
And what we did originally waslike I would write a chapter and
(03:14):
then she would write the exactsame chapter from her
character's perspective.
And we gave it to a bunch ofour friends and they were
basically like this is trash.
Nobody's going to want to readthis like this.
And were like all right back tothe jarboard so we went back and
we realized that it was likethe best way to do it because
people didn't want to read thesame thing two chapters in a row
, because it kind of takes themout of the story um is that we
would leapfrog it, so like Iwould tell a chapter from lena's
(03:37):
perspective and then campbell'schapter that would come next
would pick up in the night ofthe story where where l story
left off, and so by the time wegot our first draft together, we
were no longer calling itNeighborhood, we were calling it
Mass Disturbance, because welearned that that's what civil
unrest is called is a massdisturbance.
And so we shopped it around.
(03:57):
We were able to get an agent.
We started writing this in 2015.
We didn't get an agent until2017.
We got an agent in 2017.
It took her like a year to sellit.
Matter of fact, it was the endof 2018, it was like december of
2018.
Um, after 15 rejection lettersfrom publishers and editors,
finally, sourcebooks was likeall right, I take your little
(04:19):
trashy books and fix it.
So, uh, it was.
It was trash at that stage.
It had 23 more drafts afterwhat you know what I mean.
and so, um, yeah, so we, we soldit to source books.
It came out um, you know,that's a.
You know, when you'republishing traditionally it's a
(04:40):
long process.
We had to go developmentaledits and line edits and copy
edits and and acquisitionsdepartment had to figure out who
was going to sell, and thenmarketing and all this stuff,
and so when it finally came outin the world it came out in 2019
and it did okay, it didn't dogreat.
We took a very small advance,so it earned out fairly quickly,
but it definitely wasn't doing.
(05:00):
We were so humiliated.
One night we were at a partywith our publisher, with the
head of the publishing company,and she says something to the
effect at a dinner table, and wewere there with other authors
from source books who were alllike we were there with, like
you know, like Vita Lush, whohas sold a million copies of his
book and stuff like that, andthere she basically said in so
many words that, like, our bookwas a little bit disappointing
in terms of sales and we wantedto be like that Homer Simpson
(05:23):
meme where we like backed intothe bush, and so it's just like
what are we going to do to makethis work.
So Gili and I got on the roadlike we were the next hot rap
group and we would take anythingthat anybody would book us for.
We wouldn't turn down anythingIf they were like we want you
guys to come sign in my backyardfor my child's bar mitzvah.
(05:44):
We were like and we will bethere, you know.
And so we toured for six monthsrelentlessly.
We went to every libraryconference, we went to teachers'
conferences, we went to socialjustice conferences, we went
anywhere anybody would take us.
And then, of course, as youknow, in 2020, I post this video
(06:04):
during the George Floyd protestthat goes crazy viral posted by
Madonna, lebron James, oprah,ava DuVernay all these people.
And then people started diggingaround to see who I was and
discovered I had a book, andthis little book that had been
out for a year that thepublisher was a little bit
disappointed in, hit the NewYork Times bestseller list, yeah
, yeah.
(06:25):
So so you know, we, and fromthere we continued to write.
We wrote another, a second book, while we fly.
That did really well.
We wrote a short story, um, ina, in uh, an anthology called
game on.
And then, um, I got a newpublisher and they were like we
really love what you said inyour speech is that way you can
take the snapshot of what youwere talking about and blow it
(06:48):
out.
You know, and I was like, yeah,I could do that.
And so I wrote a book uh, howwe can win this one?
Um, how we can win race historyand changing the money game
that's rigged.
That took the snapshot of thatsix minute video and blew it all
the way out.
I call it my reparationsmanifesto.
J.D. Myall (07:08):
Yeah, that's it, very cool, very cool.
Reflecting on all of yoursuccess, what do you think was
one of the things that you didright to help you get to where
you are now?
Author Kimberly Jones (07:24):
I failed a lot, like I think a lot of
people are afraid to fail.
You know I got, I am, I am.
You know I'm a neurodivergentkid.
You know what I mean.
I have I have ADHD.
So I've, you know, focused, youknow ability to process,
needing dopamine to do things.
You know it affects the way younavigate life.
(07:46):
I keep saying I want to write amiddle grade novel about a kid
with ADHD.
I'm going to call it Busy Body.
But you know so I would trythings and if it didn't give me
the proper amount of dopamineafter a while I would be like
all right, that failed and Iwould move on and I don't feel
any way about it.
And so I've tried a lot ofthings in life and I've been
(08:07):
successful at some things andI've failed at other things.
But you know there's a, there'sa blessing in every lesson and
every fail is really a lesson.
And so I've learned so much andI've taken so much away from
each moment, from each failure,and I've lived.
You know things that I'm notproud of, but one of the things
I can proudly say that I'm proudof is that, like I've lived
(08:30):
fearlessly in the sense that,like I try things that most
people don't think about.
You know, when people find outthat I was, you know, a clown in
Ringling Brothers and Barnumand Bailey Circus, they're like
how did you do that?
I'm like I flunked out ofcollege and my parents said you
had to go to school.
So I went to clown college andthen I toured with a ringling
for him.
I met a boy who I thought wascute and I wanted to get in
(08:52):
better shape and I started goingto the boxing gym with him
because he was a retired boxer.
And after being at the boxinggym with him for months working
out, his friend said that girl'sreally strong.
I think she could take a fight.
And I became a professionalboxer.
I won the California GoldenGloves.
So like I just, I just do.
(09:12):
I don't recommend this tochildren, but I just have like
lived by the seat of my pantsand like floated around and did
whatever and it's landed me insome amazing places.
I've got to work with someawesome people.
I mean, I got to work for TylerPerry just because I was
unemployed and called a friendand was like, can I get a job
wherever you are?
And she was an older whitewoman and this is pre people
really knowing Tyler in the waythat they do now?
He had just come off of theplays and was just starting
(09:35):
movies and she was like yeah,I'm working for this amazing
young black man.
She's like you should come overto the office tomorrow and fill
out your start paperwork.
And then I pulled up and it wasTyler Perry Studios and I
became his production secretary.
So I just have like had no plan.
To be honest, I just likefailed up.
J.D. Myall (09:56):
You speak multiple languages and everything you do
all kind of like really fabulousthings.
Author Kimberly Jones (10:03):
Korean and Bulgarian.
J.D. Myall (10:10):
Yep yeah, fabulous thing.
Korean and bulgarian yep yeahum focusing on craft.
Author Kimberly Jones (10:13):
Can you tell us a little bit about your
writing process?
Yeah, I go in knowing that.
I go in um telling myself thatI'm a shitty writer.
And I do that by design,because I'm just like.
If I tell myself that I'm ashitty writer, I have zero
expectation.
I have no desire to be a shittywriter.
I have zero expectation.
I have no desire to be a greatwriter, only to be a great
editor.
You can't edit a blank page, soI put shit on the page and let
it go, that's it, that's mywhole plan.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
And I am a plotter.
Author Kimberly Jones (10:40):
I cannot paint.
I've lived my life by the seatof my pains, but I can't write
that way.
So I write extremely detailedoutlines.
I start writing.
I really and I have hadoutlines that were 20 pages long
.
Yeah, every chapter has like 40bullets.
(11:00):
We write out all the beats likea screenwriter.
J.D. Myall (11:04):
That's cool how do you strike a balance between
character?
Speaker 4 (11:09):
oh go ahead.
J.D. Myall (11:10):
I'm sorry I can't hear you.
Sweetie, you're broken up.
Your hair looks.
Oh, thank you, darling, can youhear me now?
I can hear you now, thank you,thank you.
How do you strike a balancebetween loss and likability?
Author Kimberly Jones (11:28):
In characters or in my life.
J.D. Myall (11:29):
In characters.
You're so silly In characters.
Author Kimberly Jones (11:36):
Yeah, like, because I have a theory
that your character doesn't haveto have likable qualities, a
theory that your characterdoesn't have to have, uh,
likable qualities.
Like, actually the charactersare more interesting if they
don't have likable qualities.
You just have to put them insituations where people want to
see them win, right.
So it's like you can be acompletely flawed character.
(11:59):
But if you're in a scenariothat we've all been in and we're
like, no, I don't care, youknow, short of being a mass
murderer or whatever, it's likeI don't care about the fact that
you're, you know, insecure orthat you had a mean girl moment,
or that maybe you said someinappropriate things.
(12:45):
No-transcript on the face of theplanet.
But who do we all have beefwith in life?
Politicians.
So because he was juxtaposedand the enemy of the politician,
we put him in a situation wherewe're like, yes, I know he's a
murderer, yes, he's having a badday, like he's having a bad day
(13:06):
, he is the worst person ever.
But you're like I don't want tosee these slimy politicians in
this movie, when I'd rather seethis shady, murderous, infidel
win than see these creepypoliticians win.
J.D. Myall (13:22):
And it didn't hurt that he was eye candy too.
That made it easy to root forhim, not right?
What do you think makes acompelling villain?
Author Kimberly Jones (13:33):
You know what I'm writing right now?
Do you know what I'm writingright now?
None of you on this none of the19 of you can tell anybody
about this project because ithasn't been announced yet.
I'm writing the Joker right nowfor dc, right?
Oh, so I'm when are?
Speaker 4 (13:48):
you gonna announce because yeah.
Author Kimberly Jones (13:51):
So I think they're gonna announce in
like two months but I'm writing,writing his origin story for dc
comics.
I'm writing him when he was 15,right?
So first of all, let's talkabout the fact that villains
always have the best outfits.
Batman is running around inunderpants.
The penguin is in a full tuxedo.
Usually one villain doesn'thave extremely impeccable
(14:17):
fashion sense.
I can't name one.
They're always dressed to thenines.
I think the other thing thatmakes a villain compelling is
giving them a why.
Why are they like this?
Because the thing is, eventhough you're rooting for your
hero and even though you don'twant them to win, the only
difference between a villain anda hero is that they usually
(14:41):
both have really traumaticthings that launch them into
their story, but one chose toavenge themselves and the other
one chose to avenge for others.
So your hero is like I want todo what's right so that this,
(15:02):
what happened to me, neverhappens to anybody else.
And your villain is like I'mgoing to make everybody who
either was involved or remindsme of the people who were
involved pay.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Love that, love that, love that.
J.D. Myall (15:23):
Suspense is often key in storytelling.
How do you weave suspense intoyour work?
Author Kimberly Jones (15:32):
the best way to read suspense into your
work is to tell the audiencewhat's happening, but don't tell
your characters.
So if I tell the audience thatthe killer is under the bed but
I write the character to notknow that the character is under
the bed, that builds thesuspense.
(15:54):
Because when that characterwalks into the room and I'll
take this, I'm a filmmaker aswell, so this is like a more
visual point but if I have thatcharacter walk in the room and
you, the audience has seen Jasonunder the bed and the shot that
I give you is Jason under thebed with the knife, and now I
see the free, bare ankle of theperson walking into the room oh,
(16:16):
my God, the suspense with theknife.
And now I see the free, bareankle of the person walking into
the room.
Oh, my God, the suspense iskilling you because you're like
are they going to realize he'sunder the bed?
Is he going to slice theirankles and they're going to have
to fight for their life?
Is he not under the bed anymore?
Like, has he moved now?
And when they look up under thebed, he's gone and now he's
behind them.
To me that's the best tool tobuild suspense is to tell your
(16:37):
audience everything, but to tellyour character nothing.
J.D. Myall (16:41):
I love that.
That was good.
How do you ensure tension inthe story?
What are your tactics forkeeping tension in your
narrative?
Author Kimberly Jones (16:53):
The best way to keep really good tension
in your narrative is pacing.
This is where you can't like beso in love with your baby, with
your story, that you're notwilling to gut it, because a lot
of times what is causing you tolose the tension in the story
is like too much language inbetween the inciting incidents,
(17:16):
um, and not like the biginciting incident of the story,
but the inciting incidents in achapter, you know what I mean.
Between that and then how they,how they get over it and what
their end result looks like.
So like I have a technique,gilly, and I have a technique
that what we do is when wefinish a book, we'll give it to
our friends who are not in thepublishing world, who are not,
(17:38):
you know, fellow writers,English professors, anything
like that, but people who weknow are hardcore readers, who
read this type of stuff all thetime.
And we use what we call the CBDmethod and we tell them we'll
print them a hard copy and we'llsay anytime you're confused,
write a C in the margin.
(17:59):
Anytime you're bored, write a Bin the margin, and anytime you
just don't care, write a D inthe margin.
And so we use that to know that.
If they are, if they areconfused, then that means that
we need to clean up the language, aren't?
If they are confused, then thatmeans that we need to clean up
the language.
If they're bored, then we haveto ask ourselves if this section
(18:20):
even makes sense.
Is it pushing the narrativeforward or do we just need to
gut it?
And if they just don't care,that means whatever we're trying
to tell we're not telling itcorrectly.
And we find that if we gut itby the CBD method, especially
when we get that back from likefour or five people, I mean we
don't do it for everything thatpeople say.
You know we take what we wantand leave what we don't want.
(18:40):
But if we're seeing a C almostconsistently in the same places
from people and the B and the Dlike that, then we know that we
are not properly building thetension.
Because you know, tensioncauses investment and if people
are bored or don't care, thensomewhere in there we're losing
their investment and the tensionis incorrect.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Love that, love that, love that.
J.D. Myall (19:06):
The journey of becoming a writer often involves
a lot of rejection.
You talked about gettingrejected by publishers at first,
before your book sold.
How did you deal with rejectionfrom querying to rejection on
submission?
Author Kimberly Jones (19:19):
I'm gonna , I'm gonna have to admit that
like I'm kind of like a littlebit super spoiled trying to get
some more light over here um.
I'm a little bit super spoiledin that by me going out as an
author and I can talk aboutrejection.
That was very different as afilmmaker, but as an author I
was a little bit spoiled in thatI was on this mission with Gili
(19:40):
, so I had a partner.
So on the days when I was downand feeling beat up, she might
be up and she might have to belike come on, little Ting Ting,
come over to my house, let meget you some tea, because you
know, you know this about us, jd, she cooks for me to motivate.
She'll come over to my houseand I'm going to make you one of
(20:02):
your favorite dishes, andAguili is Jewish and I love her
matzah soup.
So she might make me somematzah or whatever and pick me
up.
But then there were days whereshe was down, where I had to
give her a speech and be likelisten, you know, we only need
one, this wasn't our, we onlyneed one.
Yes, this wasn't our one.
Yes, but we're fine, we'll beokay, you know.
(20:22):
So we were spoiled in thatsense that we had each other to
lean on through that process andit usually, consistently, was
like that If one of us wasfeeling down.
The other one was like no, no,no, they were the cheerleader,
like we got this.
We just gotta stay the course.
We just gotta call the agentand think of some other people
editors we know that can be sentto, and you know that kind of
thing.
As a filmmaker, you never takethe journey of the product on
(20:47):
your own because it's such acollaborative.
You know art.
But as a screenwriter, whenyou're trying to get to the
point where you can get themoney to hire the crew, to bring
on the collaborators, that partis pretty lonely and there's a
lot of rejection.
I'll tell you about rejection.
It took me 20 years to get anagent as a screenwriter 20 years
(21:10):
.
And so, yeah, talk aboutrejection.
I was like shit, do I even?
Am I a suck at this?
Should I stop?
And what has helped me alongthe way was just creating right,
like making man.
I got some films that are soembarrassingly bad, you know.
But it's like just makingcrappy stuff with my friends and
(21:33):
seeing where we did it wrongand making it better the next
time and better the next time,and better the next time.
And in that act of doing um,you get moments of victory
because you know me and myfriends.
You know it took me 20 years toget an agent, but there were
times that our little projectsmade it into a film festival so
we got that moment ofencouragement.
You know we we made a short filmthat caused the CDC to make us
(21:58):
want to make a documentary forthem about HIV awareness, and so
we got that victory.
So the victories are in thedoing so.
Part of how you deal withrejection is literally just to
keep going.
I could tell you about almost30 years in entertainment and
you know I've worked ineverything from music and film
and all that stuff I havewatched over the past 30 years.
(22:21):
I have watched hard work beattalent every single day.
Every single day, I watch hardwork beat talent.
You could be the most talentedperson in the world If you don't
have the work ethic, if youdon't love it, if you don't
breathe it, if that's not whatyou would do, even if nobody was
paying you man, a kid with awork ethic will be the kid
(22:43):
that's wildly talented everytime.
Because, guess what?
The work ethic will grow yourtalent, but talent can't grow
work ethic talent, but talentcan't grow.
J.D. Myall (22:58):
During the time when you were starting out in
writing or screenwriting, werethere any tools or websites or
resources or festivals oranything that you found that
were really helpful that you'drecommend to people starting off
?
Author Kimberly Jones (23:08):
Yeah, I definitely.
I definitely use a lot ofanything Sid filled for
screenwriting like all of hisbooks, his workshops, his
classes.
Like Sid filled was my go toguy in terms of screenwriting.
I still take screenwritingclasses right now, even though
(23:28):
I've had overall TV deal withWarner Brothers and had shows on
Bravo and Tubi and Peacock andall these places, I still take.
I still take my teacher, derryTitan.
You guys can look him up.
They call him the film mechanicbecause he became very well
known in LA for being a scriptdoctor, for taking bad scripts
(23:49):
in Hollywood and fixing them orwhatever.
He does online classes.
But here in Atlanta everyquarter quarter he does a free
writing class at the library andit's like all these people who
are like writing their firstscreenplay, who have never
written a screenplay ever againin their life and then in me and
they're like.
They're like she's like gotboards and all this stuff.
(24:11):
Why is she in this class?
And and I'm just like ironsharpens iron Every time I take
that class I learn something new, not just from the instructor
but from the conversations ofthe other students and also
because young people listen.
I'm an old people but like Ilove to be around young people
because they teach me newmodalities and new systems and
(24:31):
new ways to do things and likehow stuff really works now and
what they want in the market andwhat they don't want to hear
anymore, what they don't want tosee anymore or, if they do want
to see it, how they want to seeit, and so I love being in
those classes and listening tolike all the fresh talent.
So people are ever in Atlanta.
They should take the free andit's free.
He does it through the libraryso that it's a free offering
(24:54):
like a four week course, andevery time he offers it if I'm
available to take it, I take it.
But he also has a book calledthe Film Mechanic which is like
a very simple 101 book that Iuse Now.
In terms of books, I still writewith all of my craft books.
Gili and I never start writingwithout breaking out our craft
(25:15):
books.
I still use on the filmmakingside.
I still use my Sid Field books.
I, gili and I never startwriting without breaking out our
craft books.
I still use on the filmmakingside.
I still use my Sid Field books.
I use Save the Cat On the bookside.
I use Save the Cat Writes aNovel.
If I'm writing romance, I write.
I use Romance in the Beat.
Gili and I are writing somemovies right now for Hallmark.
We found this like how to Writea Hallmark Christmas Movie book
(25:36):
on Amazon.
We've been using that so Istill use all of my craft books
when I work.
It just helps me to structureeverything love that um, what
library does that class at?
J.D. Myall (25:47):
if you know I'm gonna drag my daughter.
Author Kimberly Jones (25:51):
He teaches them at different ones,
so, like he's done it at thelibrary, at the one in mcdonough
, so he tries to do it whereit's like the alpharetta people
can go this time, or the city,but I'll send you his
information so you can.
Um, yeah, so you can uh, followhis web, his get his newsletter
and stuff, but he's doing anonline class right now that you
(26:12):
know people could take fromanywhere.
Okay, awesome.
J.D. Myall (26:16):
I could probably take the class myself too.
Um, what were some of thebiggest and lessons and
surprises you encountered inyour publishing journey and in
your filmmaking journey?
Author Kimberly Jones (26:28):
some of the biggest lessons I
encountered lessons orsurprisesons or surprises.
I'll tell you what I'll talkabout, something that is, I know
that is in this worldconsidered gauche, but I realize
now that it was consideredgauche for the benefit of
(26:48):
capitalism and the wealthy andthe one percenters.
I got the benefit of OG writersshowing me their contracts and
showing me how much money theymade.
I love that and let me see itbefore I sign my first deal.
A bunch of ogs, they there's agroup of them.
I can't tell their like secretidentity name, but they have a
(27:10):
group of them.
It's like a thing that they dowhen they're like come on little
tink, tink and they will sendyou like a zip file with all of
their contracts and so you cansee all the deal points that
they have and how much moneythey make and all of that kind
of stuff.
And that was a game changerbecause I realized it wasn't
that they were offering me badmoney, but they were offering me
(27:32):
bad deal points.
And what I've learned over myyears, on both the film and the
music side and the book side, isthat when lose or draw, you get
what you ask for, that everycontract is negotiable.
That you know when you hearthese stories of people being
like they gave me a really badcontract and they ripped me off,
(27:54):
like they gave me a really badcontract and they ripped me off.
Well, the truth of the businesswhich I don't think is a good
model, I think it's a shittycapitalistic model but the truth
of what it is is when someoneslides a contract across the
table for you, they're going toslide it across the table to you
with almost all of the benefitbeing to them.
It's up to you, your lawyer andyour team to negotiate that and
(28:15):
push back and go OK, you havethese hundred things 40 of them
I don't like, so I want toeliminate the 40 I don't like.
And there's 10 things in here Iwant that are not in here, and
so I want to add that and youpush that back across the table,
and then they will push backand you will push back and
you'll do that little dance witheach other, we'll salsa with
(28:35):
each other until you get down tosomething that everybody can be
satisfied with.
And I think a lot of artistswhen they come in the business
I've seen it in music, I've seenit in film, I've seen it in
books A lot of artists when theycome in the business.
(28:56):
One they're so enthusiastic andso excited and so happy to be
getting anything that they justwant to sign right away.
Two you're talking about tensof thousands, hundreds of
thousands, millions of dollarsfor a lot of time, people who
not even necessarily have beenimpoverished, but maybe have
lived a middle-class life, andthis is more money than they're
ever going to see in one chunkof their life, and they're
excited about it.
And so the other thing isthey're afraid request anything
(29:21):
but that the deal is going to goaway, because they don't
understand that the art ofnegotiation is an expectation.
They expect you to negotiate,which is why they send it a
hundred percent in their favor,so that they can start high, so
that as you guys negotiate down,negotiate down, negotiate down,
you'll find yourselves the bothof you in the middle.
We're not.
(29:41):
If I, if I, if I write acontract and I give you
everything that I think you wantand I still start negotiating
with you in the end like I'mgonna be lopsided, you know what
I mean.
So it's like you know theystart high and it's up to you to
negotiate.
And if there's anything I couldtell young artists I don't even
remember what the fuckingquestion was now.
But if there's anything that Icould tell young artists, it
(30:05):
would just be the deal is notgoing to lift off the table
because you ask for something.
The deal is not going to liftoff the table because you insert
your attorney or your agent oryour manager.
That is the nature of thebusiness.
They expect that.
It is not insult to the networkstudio or publishing house.
It is not insult to the recordcompany.
They don't think that you arebeing and here's the key you
(30:28):
better stay the pretty littleprincess doll that they just
want to see, create and make art.
And you let your people have thehard conversations.
When I'm on the phone with apublisher or network, all I'm
talking about is what I want tocreate.
I'm letting them see my publicpersonality.
I'm selling myself.
I'm talking about all the ideas.
I'm saying to them hey, we'regoing to make so much money
(30:54):
together, but when it comes downto the brass tacks and it's
time to start talking about thebusiness and what needs to get
done, there is not one networkstudio or publisher that has
ever had that conversation withme.
They have had thoseconversations with my management
team, my agents or my attorney.
Y'all go over there and fightthe good fight and figure out
what I need, and then, when it'sall said and done, you can
still look at me and still be inlove.
J.D. Myall (31:16):
Love that you mentioned earlier, your deal
with Warner Brothers.
How did that come to be?
Author Kimberly Jones (31:29):
So, after it's crazy, that video going
viral changed a lot of things inmy life.
So after I went viral, you knowpeople were trying to figure
out who is this girl.
Who's this girl with this crazylike sister soldier ponytail on
the side of her head?
Shout out to my pandemic here.
I was a mess.
But, um, you know peoplestarted researching me to figure
out who I were, who I was.
And you know Oprah had this liketown hall at the time and she
(31:49):
played my video and Ava DuVernayis talking about how she sent
the video to Oprah and all thesepeople and they have like a
whole thing about it.
And so when people started toresearch me, so you know Ava's
over at Warner Brothers, sopeople are listening to her
consistently post and talk aboutthis girl.
And Warner Brothers looks me upand they're like shit, she's a
filmmaker like.
She has won these filmfestivals.
(32:10):
She worked for Tyler Perry, shedeveloped being Bobby Brown for
Bravo.
She did these things.
And they were just like, uh, doyou want to come over here and
create stuff?
And I was like, sure, give me aboat ton of money.
And they were like fine.
J.D. Myall (32:24):
I was like, deal, love it um can you tell us a
little bit about the process ofgetting a movie on Tubi?
Author Kimberly Jones (32:40):
I know you did a lesson on that the
other day or not too long ago,on getting a movie on Tubi, yeah
.
So there are lots of well one,you can go Tubi Direct.
There are ways that you canjust send it over to Tubi
Directly and get it up there.
But then there are aggregators.
There are companies like CNSDistribution, glass Slipper
(33:02):
Pictures, maverick I am missingone, I'm missing a few, but you
have aggregators like that whohave a more connected
relationship with Tubi, wherethey have the kind of deal where
they are uploading thingsconstantly.
So Tubi is putting theircontent kind of in the front of
the line constantly.
(33:23):
So Tubi is putting their kindof in the front of the line.
It's like if you just gothrough Tubi's like direct
portal, you know it'll getuploaded at some point, whenever
, however, whoever knows, but itwill get uploaded.
But if you go through one ofthe uh, the aggregators, like
CNS distribution, glass Slipper,maverick um, the uh, the ones
like the ones like that, theykind of have like a front of the
(33:45):
line situation where it's likeanything that they're uploading,
you know is when they upload itit's going to be live within a
week or two, and so you knowthey're a middleman.
So you got to do a split withthem as well, but for a lot of
people it's worth it to not beclueless as to when your project
is going to come out.
To do that.
The other thing that I wastelling people is like there are
certain positions when you'remaking an independent film.
(34:08):
And let me tell you something Iknow people talk really bad
about Tubi, but I love Tubi andhere's why I love Tubi.
I've been making films for 30years and I know how hard it is
and I come from the era where weused to have to like use actual
film and take a razor blade andsplice and tape the film and
turn it into all of that to seewhere we are in the digital age.
And I you know, I worked in themusic business for years.
(34:28):
I was Dallas Austin's assistant, so I was around during the TLC
heyday.
I was a roadie for the WhiteStripes and so I'm watching now.
In the last 10 years, the filmindustry looked like how the
music industry looked in the 90swhen everything went digital,
and this is when yourbillionaires in music got made.
(34:49):
This is when you get your TIs,your Jay-Zs, your Akons, all of
these people is when theindustry went digital and people
were able to not have to gothrough the gatekeepers of the
record company and it wasn'treal-to-reel anymore and you
could afford.
If you had a laptop and somedecent equipment, you could make
(35:09):
a record and you could get thesame sound that you did when you
had reel-to-reel.
And now we're in that sameplace digitally with filmmaking.
So I love that.
You have all of these filmmakers, especially all these little
hood kids grabbing their phonesand their cameras and they're
getting their friends and guesswhat?
These kids are out here in thestreets making these little hood
movies on their own and gettingthem up on Tubi.
(35:30):
And guess what they're notdoing?
They're not bopping you in yourfucking head, which is what
they probably would be doing,because the one thing we don't
want to face in this nation isthat poverty and crime are
bedfellows.
A starving person will commit acrime.
A well-paid person has nodesire to, and so you have this
whole generation of kids thatare finding a new set of income
(35:52):
through them for themselves,through to be.
Are their movies bad?
Is the sound bad?
Is the acting bad?
Is the script bad?
Yes, but who gives a shit aboutit?
From an ethereal point of youhave all these little kids that
are finding their way.
It's so beautiful to watch and Ilove it and I know how hard it
is to just get something doneand in the can and they're doing
(36:13):
it and so, yeah, I tell themall the time, like if there's
anything I teach them beyond,like how to physically get it on
there, I tell them that yourmovie is made in three ways
really.
One you have to have a solidscript, so I don't care if you
got the worst actors in theworld.
If the script is beautifullywritten, if the script is solid,
(36:36):
if you've done the work to geta solid script, that will show
up, and then that the movie ismade in lights and sound.
Don't worry about going to getthe next hottest rapper to be in
your film.
Stack your money up instead ofgiving them to that.
Get all the kids in theneighborhood and go get you a
real sound man and a real gafferlike that.
Because I'm telling you it alsoaffects how it moves in the
(37:00):
algorithm of the streaming appsof Tubi, of Peacock, of, you
know, amazon, of even YouTube.
The quality pushes it up andthat quality is not in I got a
little dirt in it.
That quality is that it's litwell and the sound is clean.
J.D. Myall (37:17):
Love that you do screenwriting too, On the first
page of a novel or the firstpage of a script.
What are the things that youthink are essential to getting
the audience's attention?
Author Kimberly Jones (37:30):
I think you start everything with a bang
.
It either needs to be a bang inthe language or it needs to be
a bang in action.
So if you're writing a verydeep introspective story about a
woman finding her way and youcan't bang it out with the
explosion, then you better bangit out with that language.
Um, and me and gilly's bookwhile we fly.
(37:51):
We toiled over that first linefor months and then what we
decided how we decided to openthat book was I will fly again.
And that again means you wantto know why she sang again.
What happened?
Fly again, why again?
Why did she stop flying?
You see what I'm saying.
You want people to askquestions on that first page,
(38:14):
because if you get them to askquestions, they can't stop until
they get an answer.
It's human nature.
That's why I think all filmschools should teach four years
of psychology.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
Love that.
J.D. Myall (38:26):
What do you think is the best writing advice you've
heard?
Author Kimberly Jones (38:31):
The best writing advice that I've heard.
I said it already.
Toni Morrison said you can'tedit a blank page.
Love that.
J.D. Myall (38:41):
You said you had some other projects coming out.
What do you have on the horizon?
Author Kimberly Jones (38:47):
So much exciting stuff.
I have a new podcast coming outcalled Country Rap Tunes.
It's me and Corey Moe and weare very disappointed as
Southerners in the way in whichthe South was left out of the
50th anniversary of hip hop.
So we're creating a wholepodcast called Country Rap Tunes
where we are going to gothrough the history of Southern
rap, of the 50th anniversary ofhip-hop.
So we're creating a wholepodcast called Country Rap Tunes
where we are going to gothrough the history of Southern
rap.
I'm so excited.
(39:08):
Corey Moe is an iconic,legendary producer.
He was the exclusive producerfor UGK.
He was best friends with Pimp Cwhen he walked into his studio
you actually see Pimp C's organis in the front of his studio
and Corey has produced for allthe OG Southern legends,
everybody from 8-Ball MJG toYoung Dolph to UGK.
(39:29):
He actually is nominated for aGrammy this year because he did
a lot of the production on thenew Killer Mike album.
He's the one who did thatproduction on the what's her
name?
From Memphis K Michelle, whenshe redid the Can you Stand the
Rain, that was a Corey Moeproduction.
And so, yeah, so me and C Moeare doing this podcast, country
(39:49):
Rapatune.
So I'm super duper, duperexcited about that and I have a
few other things that I don'tknow if I'm allowed to talk
about yet, but I'm excited aboutthat.
I'm excited about the Jokergraphic novel and I really love
you know.
Uh, first of all, I'm a formerclown and I love villains.
So when I had my meeting withdc, they were basically just
(40:10):
like we wanted kim jones graphicnovel.
We don't care what you want towrite, you tell us what you want
to write.
And they were.
I was like I want to write thejoker.
And they're like kim, you havethe run of the entire dc catalog
.
You want to write the Joker.
And I was like, yeah, why arey'all saying that?
Like, that's not like the bestthing in the world to write
(40:30):
thank you very much my guestwill take some questions from
you guys.
J.D. Myall (40:34):
Anybody have any questions for Kim?
Speaker 4 (40:37):
I can answer my question now.
I don't want to bust in frontof anybody.
Um hi, Kim, my name is Dionneand I have a question about,
like I know your first book hadto do with, like, Freddie Gray
and stuff like that and racialinjustice and a thesis project I
did from Drexel's MFA.
It had to do with George Floydand I like what I've done.
(41:01):
But I do worry, like is itgoing to be hard to sell that?
You know, having to do withprotests and racial injustice?
I mean, these are stories thatneed to be told, but I do worry,
like you know, are people goingto want to read these stories?
You know?
Author Kimberly Jones (41:17):
Yeah, people do want to read those
stories.
They just want to read them ina way that humanizes the story.
They want it to be palatable,in a way not to water it down,
because you know, I would neversuggest you do that but in a way
that you humanize the people inthe stories.
Oh, that's another project thatI'm working on.
I'm working on this projectcalled the aster project.
(41:38):
It's a creative project and oneof the things that we're doing
is we are taking people who havebeen slain by the police and we
are humanizing them by creatingart around them, and so we're
doing murals to them, we'rewriting records about them and
I'm over the anthology where wehave all these New York Times
bestselling authors that aretaking one family, sitting with
that family, learning about theperson's life, everything about
(41:59):
their life prior to being killedby the police, and they're
writing that person's biography.
And the reason why we're doingthat and the reason why that
work is so important and thework that you're doing is so
important, is because the reasonthese situations happen is
because the lack of people'sability to see the humanity of
these people, and so when youhave the opportunity to use your
(42:22):
pen to write them.
Do not write the story from theof a lesson of.
I'm going to teach you what'sright.
Tell a human story, tell astory of a person's triumph,
because the more specific youare, the more universal it will
be, because everybody has felthurt and pain.
I'll tell you a fun thing myfirst book.
(42:44):
I'm Not Dying With you Tonight.
We gave this book to a little15-year-old white girl and we
have Campbell and Lena who arethe leads Campbell's white,
lena's black.
They're both 17.
But Lena has a best friendnamed LaShunda black girl.
She's got her name LaShundaBlack girl.
That's in Lena's story, and wegive this book to this
15-year-old white girl.
(43:04):
She relates the most toLashunda.
You know why?
Because in the beginning wetell the story of how Lashunda
lives with her grandparentsbecause her mother died of a
opioid overdose.
So this Black girl was living atotally different socioeconomic
experience as her.
(43:25):
Though being so specific aboutwho LaShunda was and what her
lived experience is, this girlfelt she didn't feel connected
to Campbell, the little whitegirl who, dad, has a boat.
She felt connected to thisBlack kid who had walked the
same walk that she walked, hadlived a similar experience, and
she felt like the hurt on thepage was authentic to her own
(43:47):
lived experience.
So the more you just reallythink of it as writing a human
experience, the more relatableit is to all people.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
Thank you, I really appreciate that.
And if I could ask like thatreally touched me and that
really gave me something tothink about.
And I have one really quickquestion with the screenwriting
stuff, what software do yourecommend?
Author Kimberly Jones (44:08):
Final draft.
Well, I recommend two.
I recommend Celtics and Irecommend Final Draft for
different reasons.
I recommend Celtics because weare in a rough economy right now
and Celtics is free, so thereis a paid version to it, but you
can get a fully functioningversion of it for free.
Now, it's not going to be onyour hard drive, it's in the
(44:29):
cloud, you know that kind ofthing, but it's free.
But final draft is the industrystandard.
So when we send files, when Isend files to the studios, when
you're sending it to the head ofdepartments on a budgeted set,
they are going to be expecting afinal draft to file.
Speaker 4 (44:44):
Okay, thank you so much.
I appreciate you.
Thank you Anytime.
J.D. Myall (44:49):
I had a comment in the a question in the chat.
He said how differently did youfind the process of writing
solo versus writing with apartner, and were there any
particular challenges that youfaced in either of those paths?
Author Kimberly Jones (45:02):
I find it harder to write solo because of
my ADHD, because it's hard forme to stay on track, and so one
of the systems of ADHD is almostlike that, I hate to say it
that of a child is that I workbetter when I have a side by
side working partner and so,having a co-author, I finished
my books with Gili twice as fastas I do my solo books, just
(45:25):
because I'm having that partnerand having someone there to
basically receive dopamine from,of excitement and let's do it,
and the pressure of her seeingme not work and being with her.
So you notice about us, jd.
That's why she and I don'twrite like via Google or
anything Like.
We're not sending each otherGoogle files.
We, when we're writing together, we schedule out week after
(45:45):
week when we're going tophysically get together and we
sit side by side and write yes.
So I know, for most neurotypicalpeople it would be the opposite
, but for me it's like I am somuch more productive when I'm
writing with her.
J.D. Myall (45:59):
Jeanette has a question.
Speaker 5 (46:01):
Yes, hi, kim, it's really great to listen to you.
When your video went viral, Iwas working on an organization
called Color of Change.
It was a racial justiceorganization, yeah, and so, like
you, were the talk of thesummer, so it's been really
great to listen to you speak asa screenwriter.
My heart dropped when you saidit took you 20 years to find an
(46:22):
agent.
I was wondering what do youthink are some of the better
ways to either get an agent orbe seen, get your writing seen
as a screenwriter, because Iknow like in the program I
always talk about doing contestsbut I don't trust some of the
writing contests, so I waswondering about people have
(46:43):
different experiences, so whatmight be some other ways to do
so um, I'll say I don't knowabout doing contests, but
submitting screenplays toofficial festivals so like, yeah
, submitting scripts tofestivals so like looking at
things like ABFF, tribeca, onesthat you know, some of the
(47:07):
bigger ones that have ascreenwriting component that
takes like a physical scriptinstead of an actual project.
Author Kimberly Jones (47:12):
Those are great ways because one, a lot
of those usually come with youwinning money, and then some of
the other ones come with yougetting some type of deal or
some production out of it and,if nothing else, people who are
industry professionals,producers, student executives,
agents, managers, stuff likethat that are curating the win
for the festival are reading it.
So, although you may not win,that still doesn't mean that
(47:33):
they don't fall in love withyour writing and think I don't
care if this child wins or not.
I'm going to communicate withthis child on my own at some
point because I really like whatyou saw on the page.
So, not necessarily a contest,but definitely festivals are a
great way to put out there andagain, another great way to put
it out there.
We're in a digital age.
Girl, you got a whole differentlife than I did when I started
doing this back in 1993.
(47:53):
Shoot some shit.
Yeah, some stuff a shot.
Put it on the screen, get itdone.
Get together with your friendsall y'all.
Put y'all eight dollarstogether.
Y'all y'all serve somelunchables for craft services.
You get a.
You get a friend who does music.
You put him on sound.
Let him figure out how to do it.
You got you got a homie.
(48:13):
That's an electrician.
Tell him he is now a gaffer.
He's gonna like this thing foryou.
He need to watch a bunch ofyoutube videos.
Get your script together, put itit together and utilize the
TikTok series right.
So TikTok has that new systemcalled series that you can
monetize and that they will dospecial promotion for it if you
post the things to the series.
Write your own five minute perepisode TV series.
(48:36):
Take a weekend, shoot fiveepisodes, make yourself some
promo videos, put it out there,put it on your TikTok series.
You and your friends promote it.
Y'all host a launch party at abar with a bunch of friends and
then y'all host a Zoom launchparty or Facebook Live launch
party with all your friends andfamily members and just start
(48:58):
putting your work out.
My friend Bobby Huntley,amazing filmmaker you know how
he got his deal.
He kept going viral with hisfive-minute short films on
Instagram.
J.D. Myall (49:10):
Love it.
Anthony has a question.
Author Kimberly Jones (49:14):
Thank you for speaking with me, what is
the hardest lesson you had tolearn as a writer?
The hardest lesson I had tolearn as a writer was to not be
sensitive about my work Like Icannot be sensitive about it,
like I have to be open tocritique in a way, like I can't
be so in love with my baby thatI don't let my baby grow up and
I don't let it grow.
(49:34):
So that was like one of the.
That was one of the hardestthings that I that I learned.
And one of the second hardestthings that I learned was you
know, like you know, comparisonis the thief of joy.
Like my journey is my journeyand I have to walk it.
So I had friends that weregetting an agent before me.
I had a friends that weremaking the.
(49:55):
You know, I had friends that Idebuted with.
Usually, when your book comesout, you have a.
You know there's usually agroup that started with all the
debut authors, because we seeeach other's announcement in
Publisher Weekly and stuff likethat, and there's usually a
group chat that started with allthe people who are debuting
that year around the same timeand it's like you see your
friends who debuted with you getto make the list or get a
(50:15):
starred review or something likethat, and you're not getting it
.
And it's just knowing that yourjourney is your own.
And again, I can't stress thisenough that knowing that when
you work it and you figure outyour plan and you figure out
what works for you and you findwhat your audience is, then
you're going to be fine.
But like, nobody's journey isyours but yours.
Speaker 5 (50:39):
Very true.
J.D. Myall (50:40):
Thank you.
Anybody else have any questions?
Speaker 6 (50:44):
yeah, I have a question.
Uh, kimberly, nice to meet you,great to hear you it's nice to
meet you, I'm jonathan mountainla and I, you know I'm old
people too.
I started in 92 out herescreenwriting.
Um took me like 14, you know,10 to 12 years to get my first
agent, which didn't really workout.
But, um, I was curious becauseI'm ADD as well and I was
(51:04):
diagnosed very late.
I'm just curious with all thestuff that's out there, like you
were speaking of it to me.
It's overwhelming.
A lot of times it just catchesyou and you, just your attention
can get drawn to one thing oranother and I was just wondering
how you found ways to conquerthat part of yourself and to
stay focused on the task at handwith all that other noise as it
gets.
You know it's got noisier andnoisier with TikTok and
(51:24):
Instagram and Facebook and allthe stuff you do to promote and
what have you.
How you find that that?
Where do you?
What techniques have you usedto conquer that part of your
personality?
Use it to your advantage.
Author Kimberly Jones (51:35):
Yes, there is an entire chapter in my
book how we Can Win dedicatedexactly to that and I call it
the nine priorities for abalanced life.
And those nine priorities arecareer, home, transportation,
relationships, finances, healthand beauty, hobby, education and
(51:57):
community.
And about twice a month I sitdown and I write out those nine
priorities and I write outeverything I have going on in
each one and I can see where I'moff balance.
I can see where I'm top heavyin career and haven't done
anything for my community, whereit's like I've been overwhelmed
by family responsibilities andI've dropped the ball on my work
(52:19):
.
Stuff I haven't done any of myso I just use that system to see
where I'm top heavy, where I'mlost, where I need to fill in
the gaps, and then I just keepnotebooks everywhere where I am
constantly reevaluating thatlist and realizing what it is
that I'm doing.
And I'm not doing because Ineed to physically do it for
myself, because my brain won'tdo it for itself.
Speaker 6 (52:39):
Thank you, I appreciate that.
Yeah, it's a good, goodtechnique for so.
J.D. Myall (52:46):
Thank you, I appreciate that yeah, it's a
good, good technique.
Yeah, love that, love that.
It has been a pleasure.
Um again, kim, if you haven'tread her books, please pick them
up.
How we can win, why we fly?
Um, why did I blink on?
I'm not dying with you tonightfor a second, and I read that
one before anybody.
That's what I'm saying.
(53:09):
But, um, she's immenselytalented.
Author Kimberly Jones (53:12):
JD was one of our beta readers for I'm
not dying with you tonight soshe was one of the people who
gave us notes on how to fix itand it was brilliant.
J.D. Myall (53:21):
Like I um, I've done some beta reading from
Macmillan probably because ofyou, dear, because I worked on
your project, but I've done somebeta reading for them and I've
done beta reading for friendsand usually it feels like work
and it feels like you're tryingto help somebody, but that I
stayed up reading that.
I was up all night sending youFacebook.
Yeah, she's a brilliant writerand a great person, incredibly
(53:46):
humble, incredibly sweet, andyou didn't tell about the
Library of Congress while wewere tooting your horn.
Author Kimberly Jones (53:53):
No, yes, yeah.
So I got to serve on theselection committee for the.
National Ambassador for YoungPeople's Literature, and I was
on the committee that picked thefirst Asian ambassador in Jean
Yang.
J.D. Myall (54:06):
Awesome.
So yeah, she's incrediblyaccomplished and just brilliant
and wonderful and like I, saidpick up her books, see her films
and you know, hopefully youguys got a lot from tonight.
Is there anything you wanted tosay in closing, kim?
Author Kimberly Jones (54:22):
Yeah, just like keep writing, like I
don't believe in the term.
I learned this from watchingShonda Rhimes' Masterclass and I
was like I'm going to stealthat and keep that for myself.
She said that you don't aspireto write.
Writers write Now.
You can aspire to be published,you can aspire to get a deal,
can aspire for those things, um,but writers write and so just
(54:44):
keep writing.
Just know that even thegreatest writers in the world
are not the greatest writers inthe world, they're just the
greatest editors in the world.
Oh and fun.
One last.
Like um and this is not asecret, this has been announced
um, the next film project that Ihave, the thing that I'm
diligently working on right now,is we are turning we are
working with warner brotherstelevision turn I'm Not Dying
With you Tonight into a series.
(55:05):
So that'll be the next thingcoming yeah, and you do have a
lot.
J.D. Myall (55:09):
I appreciate you.
Um, thank you so much.
I love you sharing your wisdom.
Thank you to everybody who cameand again, thank you, kim.
Anybody else have any finalquestions before we close out?
Speaker 7 (55:23):
I can't see the hands because my screen that wraps up
today's craft chat chronicleswith jd mayor.
Thanks for joining us.
If you like the episode, pleasecomment, subscribe and share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
(55:44):
jdmayocom.
That's jdmayocom.
While you're there, join jd'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
Thank you.
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