November 22, 2025 • 53 mins
Ever wondered how to captivate an agent’s attention with your manuscript? Join us for an enlightening conversation with award-winning historical fiction author Amy K Runyan on this episode of Craft Chat Chronicles. Amy shares her invaluable insights on avoiding common pitfalls in student writing, establishing clear communication with MFA program instructors, and the art of crafting a unique premise while staying attuned to market trends. Her practical advice on setting realistic timelines and meeting deadlines is a must-hear for aspiring writers aiming for traditional publishing success.
What’s the secret to creating characters that stay with readers long after they’ve turned the last page? Amy dives into the complexities of character development, showcasing examples from classics like "Much Ado About Nothing" and "Othello" to illustrate the power of character flaws. We also touch on the intricacies of narrative pacing in the modern literary landscape, offering actionable tips on refining dialogue and trimming unnecessary content to keep readers hooked. Learn how to prepare your manuscript to not only capture an agent’s interest but also stand out in a crowded marketplace.
Navigating the writing industry can be a daunting task, but Amy’s journey of resilience and adaptability offers valuable lessons for both new and seasoned writers. From the importance of networking at conferences to the role of critique groups in honing your craft, discover how to stay current with market trends and persevere through setbacks. Through her personal experiences, including a transformative pivot after a manuscript underperformed, Amy underscores the importance of flexibility and persistence in achieving writing success. Don't miss her strategies for balancing meticulous historical research with the creative demands of writing, ensuring your work is both authentic and compelling.
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🎙️ Craft Chat Chronicles with J.D. Myall
Candid conversations on writing, publishing, and creative life — featuring bestselling authors, MFA students, and writers at every stage of the journey.
About J.D. Myall
J.D. Myall is the co-chair of Drexel University’s MFA Alumni Association and a publishing and library professional. She is the creator and host of Craft Chat Chronicles, where she interviews authors, agents, and industry insiders about the art and business of writing.
Her work has appeared in Ms. Magazine, Writer’s Digest, and HuffPost. Her debut novel, Heart’s Gambit, releases with Wednesday Books/Macmillan in February 2026.
When she’s not conjuring magic, murder, and mayhem on the page, J.D. mentors emerging writers through workshops and alumni programs, fostering community among aspiring and published authors alike.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
(00:25):
writing journey.
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmyallcom.
That's jdmyallcom.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
On season two, episode 10 of Craft Chat
Chronicles.
We are in for a real treat.
10 of Craft Chat Chronicles.
We are in for a real treat.
On today's episode we'll betalking to author Amy K Runyon,
who's penned novels like AMemory of Lavender and Sage and
A Bakery in Paris, which is outnow.
So in season two, episode 10 ofCraft Chat Chronicles, amy K
(01:00):
Runyon will give us lots ofcreative writing tips and she'll
dive into the MFA process foranyone who's interested in
getting a Master of Fine Arts.
For those of you who don't know,I'm co-chair of Drexel
University in Philadelphia's MFAAlumni Association and Amy K
(01:21):
Runyon is part of the facultyand staff of Drexel University,
so I'm really excited to getsome writing tips from her today
.
So let's get chatty.
That's season two, episode 10of Craft Chat Chronicles.
Amy K Runyon is a historicalfiction author.
She's award-winning and widelyacknowledged for her brilliance
(01:44):
as a packet exchange professorand a writer, and today she's
going to give us some tips onwriting for your packet exchange
.
If you're an MFA program, likeDrexel's low residency MFA
program, these tips could helpyou get your packet together.
And if you are not and you justwant tips to improve your
writing.
Please join us.
There's a lot to learn.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Hey, hi.
And if you are not and you justwant tips to improve your?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
writing.
Please join us.
There's a lot to learn.
For starters, can you give me alittle bit of an example of
common mistakes you find instudent writing?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
find in student writing.
Well, I think the most importantthing is that you need to
discuss your plan or your goalswith your packet instructor so
that you know what the so thepacket instructor knows what the
student is after, what theirgoals are for their career and
for this project, and I thinktaking the time to you know have
a an early conversation beforethe term your first term starts
(02:50):
is very important.
I always like to have a good 15minute chat with all my new
students so that I know what theend goal is, because, if you
know they're different, peopleare after different things,
whether they want a traditionalpublishing gig or to go into
academics, etc.
Those goals are going to lookdifferent and you know I
(03:13):
certainly have a lot more tooffer the student who's after a
traditional publishing gig,because that's where I live, and
so that's my first piece ofadvice is to really maintain an
open forum of conversation withyour packet instructor, and a
good packet instructor should bewilling to field emails all the
time, even text messages, ifyou get that comfortable and you
(03:38):
know not being afraid to ask ifsomething works or to even
throw somebody a paragraph andsay is this doing what it needs
to do and I think that that'sreally a good rapport to have.
And I think that thecounterpoint to that is knowing
what you want out of the programand knowing what you want your
piece to accomplish.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Okay.
So when reviewing the, onceyou've had the conversation,
what's your next step?
Usually with the student.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
You know I like to come up with a plan quarter by
quarter.
When are we going to, you know,are we going to?
Are you going to give me 60pages up front and we're going
to have one like two hour megazoom, or are you?
Are we going to break it up andI want you to have a specific
timeline?
One of the hardest parts aboutbeing a professional author is
(04:29):
working to deadline, but it'sjust a reality of the business
and so you've got to learn to dothat and you need to learn to.
You know, set your expectations, um, and and have a plan moving
forward.
Um, that seems to be a commontheme.
It really is.
But, yeah, having a scheduleand knowing what you want to do
for each of those quarters and,if you can, you know, if you
(04:54):
know you look at the entire, ifyou've already got a piece and
you're revising it, you know youcan break up and say I want to
work on, I want to show you mybook.
In the first three quarters,we're going to work together,
and then in the fourth quarter,I'd like to, you know, work on
some revisions of the parts thatweren't working.
That's perfectly valid, buthaving that game plan, I think
really gives the program focus.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Love that For your students who want to be
professional writers and whowant to go into traditional
publishing.
What are the strengths you mostoften see and what are the
areas you would suggest studentswork on improving?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Well, you know, I think that the best tool in your
arsenal or your toolbox is tohave a unique premise, and
that's easier said than done,and that's something that your
packet instructor can't justprovide for you.
I mean, they could, that wouldbe extremely generous, but
chances are they're keepingtheir good stuff for themselves.
(05:50):
But I think that it's importantto an understanding of the
market and understanding what isselling.
And, of course, that's verytenuous, because in historical
fiction, certain things go inwaves.
In waves, you know, for thelongest time it was the tutors,
(06:12):
and you could write a book aboutHenry VIII's second cousin,
twice removed, and somebody beinterested, because everybody
was obsessed with the tutors,likely because of the HBO show,
and then, forever, it was worldwar two.
You'll notice, I jumped on thatbandwagon.
We all did, we all did, we alldid, and that's fine.
But those bubbles, you know ebband flow and some of them last
longer than others, and so youcan't chase the market too
(06:36):
doggedly and you want to be anoutlier.
Being an outlier is both risky,but it's also where the
greatest reward was, if we lookat one of the biggest books of
2023, or I guess it was late 24,might've been early 23,.
Lessons in Chemistry was abreakout book and nobody had
written anything quite like it.
You know for, for, for you know, ever, and it's definitely you
(07:00):
were seeing more and more bookstry to emulate that.
I don't think that'snecessarily the strongest
position to be in, you know,trying to emulate a big book,
but all the same, like findingan interesting spin For me,
world War II.
You know, looking at the schoolfor German brides, nobody had
written about the Nazi brideschools.
It was a niche that nobody hadwritten about.
Yeah, okay.
(07:21):
So you know it's reallyimportant to be aware of what's
happening in the market, but youdon't want to chase the trend
too doggedly because you don'tknow what's going to happen.
You're aware of what's beingpublished and you're actively
(07:47):
reading a lot of what'shappening in your genre.
Is is very important becauseyou'll be able to get a sense of
where things might be headed.
And of course we have periods inhistorical fiction where it's
kind of that weird gap wherenobody knows what the next big
thing is, and it's really kindof a hard time to try to write
historical fiction.
But it's also a time to throwweird stuff out there, like oh,
you haven't seen a book set in1840, you know, I don't know
(08:13):
North Central Canada, I mean,and actually that was how my
debut happened.
I wrote a book that was set in1666, canada, but it was in the
period between, you know, whenthe Tudors were in decline and
before World War II had reallytaken off, and that, you know, I
found a publisher that waswilling to give it a shot and
(08:34):
say, you know, let's see, maybeCanadian Colonial will be the
next big thing Spoiler.
It wasn't, but, you know, atleast I got a debut, um, and
that's a very fortunate thingvery true, very true.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
What do you see um as being the topics that are
coming in right now, that seemto be popular in the ebb and
flow today?
Speaker 3 (08:57):
um topics that are popular.
I think we're seeing inhistorical fiction.
We're seeing a lot of later20th century.
Obviously, the big book so farthis year is the Women by
Kristen Hanna, which is Vietnamera.
I'm not sure that everybody canpull that off.
I mean, kristen Hanna couldpublish a phone book and people
would buy it.
But you know, I think that,like 1950s through the 1980s are
(09:20):
going to have a moment andwe're also seeing things
creeping earlier which isexciting to a lot of historical
fiction folks.
Victorian era and even earlierin the 19th century are.
You know, there's getting somenibbles and that's really
exciting.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Cool, cool.
Are there any commonalities?
You've noticed from the packetsthat you see, as far as just in
general, like things that kidstoday, like, really seem to be
good at.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
I think that one of the thing the problem bits I see
in a lot of the piecesespecially historical pieces,
but not always historical isinfo dumping, where you know
you've got this paragraph of youknow really interesting
information about I don't knowum, about the pilgrims landing
(11:38):
on plymouth rock or somethinglike that, and it's fascinating.
But you really need to be moredeft about how you work it into
the narrative so it doesn't feellike all of a sudden you
stopped and you're reading likekincaid's Guide to American
History, published in 1984, thatwe all read in high school,
right, and we want to make itpart of the narrative, make it
(12:02):
advance the plot and that'ssomething like every.
When you reread your stuff andyou should your packet exchange
instructor should not be readinga first draft.
They really shouldn't Take thetime to reread your stuff.
If you can and this is a bigask have some other people from
the program or other authors orother readers or you know I've
(12:23):
got a lot of people who have hadsensitivity readers for various
things have some other peopleread it before you send it to
your packet instructor so thatwe can talk about.
If it's like building up a house, you need to make sure that the
foundation is solid, yourframing is in great shape, so
that we're talking about colorsamples and drapes and you know,
(12:45):
and maybe a bit of wiring, butwe don't want to be talking
about.
You know the basic foundationsof your story.
You know we want to talk abouthow to make your prose smoother
and you know how to make thedialogue flow and that sort of
thing.
We don't want to be talkingabout the bare bones like this
entire chapter.
I've never had that happen,thankfully, but this entire
(13:06):
chapter is not advancing theplot.
So you need to really, you know, read back over your stuff and
ask yourself is X, y, y and zadvancing the plot?
And that doesn't mean that youdidn't need to write it.
I have a chapter in the book I'mworking on now, but I'm really
glad I wrote.
It's like exposition about themain character's job and what
(13:26):
she does, and it's superinteresting, at least to me.
But it's the.
It's keeping the character frommoving on into the main action
of the story and so it's goingto get either condensed or cut
all the way out, and that's fine.
But it gives me some of herbackstory.
That will make the rest of thestory richer.
Love that.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, yeah.
What best advice do you havefor students on the very first
few pages when they're justgetting started?
How can they most impress youor intrigue the reader when you,
when they first open up theirpacket or their chapter first
chapter?
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Okay, and this is one of the hardest things.
Even you I've written you know,quite a few books, knowing
where to start the story.
I want to see that you've spentsome time considering is this
the moment where we need tostart the story?
And I remember you know thebook that I'm in it edits right
now.
I sent sample chapters to myeditor or my agent a couple of
(14:26):
times and she's like you're notstarting at the right place.
And I had it.
You know it was a very quietscene with an older sister
looking after her siblingswaiting for their mom to pass
away, which you know.
There's some tension there butit was far better to have, you
know, a contentious family mealafter the funeral with a really
nasty grandmother, and you know.
(14:47):
So.
You want to grab people'sattention right away and that's
what makes prologues kind of awhat's the word?
It can make them a scary choiceor it can make them a very
difficult, challenging choice,because you have to.
You have to set up the, thestory, and if you're jumping to
(15:08):
a scene that we don't have a lotof context for, even if it's
really gripping and fun, wedon't care about the characters
yet because the single mostimportant thing and this is
sweeping advice for everybodywho picks up pen and paper or,
you know, starts typing the mostimportant thing you have to do
is to make your reader careabout the character.
(15:29):
Everything else, every singleother thing, is gravy.
You can write the most basickind of monosyllabic prose and
well, people will be annoyed bythat, to be sure.
But if you make them care aboutyour characters, they may keep
reading.
And that's the trick to keepingpeople reading, because it's
not just about getting people totake an interest in your book
(15:51):
and to click on your book andmaybe buy your book, and then
you don't want them to leave iton a shelf or just open it up
and do not finish, or on theirKindle what have you?
You want them to finish thebook and to review the book and
to become fans and talk aboutyour book, to proselytize about
your books.
That's the end goal.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Now, what advice do you have for making people care
about the characters?
What?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
I think, making your characters, you know, complex
and interesting, putting somethought into the challenges
they're going to face.
Because the difference, youknow, a comedy and we're talking
in, like the greek, theoriginal kind of greek of the
term A comedy is where you havea hero facing challenges that
(16:39):
their unique set of flaws willmake difficult, but they will
ultimately overcome it.
A tragedy is where the hero'sflaws are such that it makes it
incompatible with any sort ofvictory.
So if you think about thedifference between, let's say,
much Ado About Nothing andOthello, we see that those
(17:04):
characters, ultimately we haveone who is able to hear reason
and to believe that his partnerwas not unfaithful, whereas the
other wasn't.
Those stories really areopposite sides of the same coin.
We have a husband who believeshe's been cheated on, or a
(17:25):
fiancée, in that case, whobelieves he's been cheated on,
but he ultimately listens toreason and believes that his
bride didn't cheat on him, andthey get to have their happy
ever after.
For Othello, the opposite istrue he believes the rumors and
Desdemona pays the price for it,and so either of those endings
(17:45):
are valid.
I'm going to say that the MuchAdo About Nothing ending is
going to be the one that'sprobably more appealing to
American markets.
You know it's tough to say, butit all has to be the one that's
probably more appealing toAmerican markets.
Hard, you know, tough to say,but not like it all has to be
buttoned up and beautiful, butending on a an optimistic note.
But either of those are arevalid.
But you, you want to havecharacters.
(18:06):
You thought about what makesthem tick.
Whether you're looking at theEnneagram and thinking about
their different personalitytypes or arc, you know, or the
Jungian archetypes or what haveyou, or whether you're just
ripping off the cuff.
Think about what are thesituations in which your
(18:27):
character will excel and do well, and then the things that are
going to really be their, theirroadblock, their hindrance, and
how do they react under stress,because you need to be putting
your characters under stress orwe don't have much of a story
very true, very true.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Um, I found in my packet exchanges that, like
different packet exchangeteachers gave me different
things um, developmental stuff,and heather christie was really,
really good with detail, likeshe would point out little
setting things that I could, youknow, make a little better,
that I never like saw and I Iwas like, hey, love that.
(19:07):
But they both elevated mywriting and helped me become
better.
What do you think are yourstrong suits?
What do you think that is Ifyou had to pick?
I know you have many skill sets, but if you had to pick, what
do you think that your thing ismost?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
You know I'm I think I'm pretty good at weeding out
the things that are bogging downthe pacing, because pacing, you
know, we've got an impatientsociety.
I hate to say it, but you knowwe've got.
You know people have less time.
It is not like the 1880s, youknow I've got these.
You know classic books above me, les Miserables, right there,
nobody would you know, back thenVictor Hugo had and he also, I
(19:43):
believe, published that one inserial.
But people had, you know,published that one in Serial.
Even farmers and things likethat, who might have read novels
in the winter, when the cropswere fallow or whatever, they
had longer bouts of time withvery little else to do.
They'd read by the Fire atnight or what have you.
(20:04):
But nowadays we have so muchcompetition for our leisure time
and you know people arespending a lot of time in the
office and we have jobs that arementally taxing and so a lot of
people.
I mean you've got to find orkeep the pacing going, or people
are going to end up scrollingon their phones it's just, you
know or watching Netflix or whathave you, because people are
(20:24):
tired at the end of the day,they want something, a story
that is going to propel them,and that's not to say that they
don't want an immersive story,that they can swim in a little
bit, but you really have to makesure that the pacing holds up,
and that's one thing I'm kind ofruthless about.
Like this paragraph is notserving you, it's weighting it
down, because that's the thingthat I always, you know, try to,
(20:46):
especially now that I've.
I mean, it's a little biteasier in historical fiction
because there's so many activethings and if you're writing,
you know World War II or evenpost World War II, or you know
the Franco-Prussian war, there,you know, things were getting
slow toss in an explosion,everything's great.
But you know I've transitionedno-transcript.
(21:31):
So that's what I really kind ofruthlessly try to look for in
my students packets are the waysto make the pacing tighter.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Love that and that's something they're going to need
to get published, because mostagents, if it slows down, if
they find it slow, they're goingto put it down, they're going
to be bored and move on to thenext.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, I mean we've got.
We live in a society wherethere's a lot of competition for
our entertainment time, whichis actually less than it used to
be in times past.
I mean, people either had zeroor a lot, it seems, if we're
looking at 19th century or whathave you.
But you know, and you know someof that pacing stuff.
It's amazing how, just lookingat your dialogue tags or, you
know, just looking at things atthe line or the paragraph level,
(22:14):
can you cut a few words out ofthat sentence and it tightens
everything down so it feels likeit flows faster and that's
important.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Very true, very true, very true, very true.
So overall um story and packetadvice that you think would help
as far as in the packetexchange and in the whole novel
grade process as making sure theend of the bag and making your
endings good, what are some tipsyou can toss out?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
yeah, you know, I think that you know making sure
that.
Yeah, you know, I think thatyou know making sure that you've
got.
You know, I think it wouldpersonally be ideal to come into
the program with a book written, but not everybody does.
A lot of my students have, andthat's great because we can
workshop the heck out of it andwe're not dealing with first
draft stuff.
This is a great position to bein.
(23:05):
But if you aren't, you know,have a solid outline and know
where you're going.
And that doesn't mean thereisn't room for organic discovery
.
You know, and that's one of thethings where you know I've had
characters like pop up out ofnowhere, you know when I even
then I've got a tightly outlinedbook and I know what all the
banner time, the banner events,are the structure given to us by
(23:27):
the actual historical events.
But all of a sudden thischaracter pops up in a classroom
and she becomes somebody thatshould have probably had a POV.
You know, been a POV characterin a book and that's fun.
It's a great deal of funbecause, above all, you should
be enjoying what you're doing.
Maybe not every minute of it,but it should be on the whole
(23:48):
fun.
But just know what you're doing.
The MFA program is a very shortperiod of time.
Go in there with a battle planand know what you want to do,
know what you want to accomplishand don't shortchange yourself
by rushing to meet deadlines etcetera and so forth.
You know, put yourself in aposition where you've got time
(24:14):
to revise and think things overbefore you submit to your packet
instructor so that they'reworking with your work.
As you know, the work that isas good as you can make it on
your own.
It doesn't mean it has to beflawless.
It't have to be flawless Idon't want to intimidate people
like that but it needs to be thebest work you know more or less
than um that that you can makewithout the help of an editor.
(24:37):
And then the editor or yourpacket exchange instructor, your
agent um, should help you takeit to the next level.
And and you know I've alwayssaid that a good editorial
letter is like a free MFA course, and so you really want people
to be working with people whoaren't afraid to tell you when
things aren't working.
(24:57):
You know, but thick skinbecause those comments I mean.
Of course there are maliciouspeople out there, but by and
large everybody at Drexel is.
You know everybody wants to seeyou succeed.
Certainly your editors andagents should be there too, you
know down the road.
But you really want to developa thick skin so that you can
absorb all those comments,because chances are they're
(25:17):
designed to not saying everysingle one of them is valid, but
you know the end goal is tryingto make your work better, so
you should at least considereverything that's being said,
even if you don't incorporateall of it.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Very true, very true.
For those who are watching thatare not in Drexel, encourage
them to come to the program.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Let them know what makes our program special and
why they should be dragons well,you know, I, first of all, I
love Drexel, I love the programat Drexel.
I am a, I am a, you know, adragon for life.
And, um, what I think is greatis that they take, um, you know,
people who are serious abouttheir craft and serious about
(25:59):
teaching students how to be, youknow, the best writer they can
be.
But they pair it with a lot ofbusiness savvy so that we're not
shoving students out into thepublishing world without an idea
of how to swim in a very, verylarge, very confusing ocean run
by English majors.
And you know, the publishingworld is hard, it's hard and
(26:24):
breaking in is extremely hard.
And the fact that you graduatefrom Drexel having met real
agents, real editors, been toNew York during the residency to
see, to be in the room where ithappens, is, I think, it's an
invaluable experience.
That doesn't happen in a lot ofother MFA programs that are
designed to help make peoplewrite beautiful academic short
(26:46):
stories but aren't designed tohelp people become commercial
novelists.
And really, you know, it'salmost easier to get to, to get
a publishing gig and to become apublished novelist than it is
to find an academic, you know, afull time academic job.
That's just the reality of it,because a lot of people say,
well, I want to be a writer, butI can get a job teaching
(27:07):
creative writing at theuniversity level and have time
to write, and yeah, it's greatwhen that works out, but there
are so many people who want tobe in that job, it's extremely
competitive.
So, you know, just focusing onbeing successful in the industry
and knowing how the industryworks is invaluable, and so I
recommend the programwholeheartedly.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Me too, because when you graduate, it doesn't end.
Yeah, it's true, the alumni MFAwe keep doing craft chats and
things like this.
So you're still connecting,you're still part of the family
and you're still trying toinform others.
So it's a great program.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
It is, and yeah, so that's a great program it is,
and yeah, it really is a greatprogram and I know that the most
of us packet instructors.
If you want to reach out andsay you know, I hey, um amy,
I've tweaked my query letter.
Would you mind looking at itbefore I send it out, or can?
Can you help me look over thispassage before I query, or that
sort of thing?
(28:07):
Most of us will be happy to doit.
We want to see you succeed.
We want to hear about all yourgood news, because you know we
feel like we got to help alittle and that's, you know,
that's exciting for us becausewe care about you, and that's
the great thing about thewriting community in general.
I expected it when I startedwriting to be cutthroat and
competitive, and you know it iscompetitive.
(28:28):
But you know, as the sayinggoes, a rising tide lifts all
boats, and so the success ofyour friends and colleagues can
equate to success for you too,because book sales beget book
sales, and so there's room foreverybody at the table.
And I've just used 87 clichesin the same sentence, and that's
fine, but it's the truth.
It's the truth.
It really is a community.
And I've just used 87 clichesin the same sentence, and that's
(28:49):
fine, but but it's the truth.
It's the truth.
It really is a community andthe fact that the most
successful writers that I knoware the most you know generous
and open and caring people isfor a darn good reason because
they engender support from theirpeers and they say you know
what that person is, it was sokind, they shared my cover.
(29:10):
They're always rooting me onand that sort of thing.
I'm going to do the same forthem and that's how it works.
And it's not transactional,it's breeding good karma very
true.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah, what tools do you think?
Because you mentioned earlierwhen you were saying that they
should have it as polished aspossible before they present it?
To you so are there any toolsor resources you would suggest,
like maybe um like is there anyeditors that you would point out
, or like any places where theycould meet?
Beta readers or something likethat, if they had.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I mean goodness, at this point, do not hire a
professional editor, becauseinvest your money in the MFA
because you should come out ofit with a fairly clean document.
But you know, beta readers areinvaluable and I think that you
know every region has variouswriter groups, like for here.
I'm in Colorado and in ourregion we have Rocky Mountain
(30:04):
Fiction Writers, and it's agreat place.
In our region we have RockyMountain Fiction Writers, and
it's a great place.
You know, the conference isonce a year and I would not be
where I am if I hadn't investedthe money to go, to spend time
at the RMFW conference and tomake contacts.
(30:25):
And you know, I remember myfirst time going to the RMFW
conference, going to the RMFWconference, I went to a panel on
the care and feeding of onlinecritique groups, which are the.
I mean online critique groupsare so handy in this day and age
because picking up, you know,getting up and commuting to some
library room or something tomeet with six or seven other
people.
It can be hard, but everybodycan Zoom.
And anyway, I had a young womancome sit next to me, hand me a
(30:47):
business card and say we're in acritique group now, we're
friends, deal with it and we'vebeen friends for 10 years now
and 11 years, oh my goodness.
And you know she published twonovels that did very well.
I've published a whole slew andour critique group is no longer
really, but you know it was aplace where a lot of us kind of
found our traction or didn't.
So a critique group is nolonger really, but you know it
was a place where a lot of uskind of found our traction or
(31:10):
didn't.
So a critique group is awonderful thing to have people
who are at your stage.
I mean it's good to have arange like people who are
aspiring, people who are gettinginto the market and people who
are, you know, somewhatestablished in the market, to
find a good mix so thateverybody can help everybody out
.
Because you know, even thepeople who are established will
benefit from the eyes of peoplewho aren't already like kind of
(31:32):
jaded a bit by the industry.
And you know, because we dobecome a bit jaded, it's a hard
business and it's okay, it'sworth it.
But you know, having that mixof ability levels is really
handy.
But a lot of almost everyregion of the country is going
to have various organization andyou can look by genre.
(31:52):
Um, my group was definitelymulti-genre, but if you want to
have a romance um critique groupor a historical fiction or a
mystery critique group, that'sgreat too.
Um, but then you know you can,you can, you can basically reach
out to those organizationswherever you are, and they often
have like a matchmaking systemto put people in critique groups
(32:14):
or to find critique partners,because it's something that
every kind of debut writer needs.
Very good, very good.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Is there any other packet advice that we have or
that we didn't cover that youcan think of?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I think that's a lot of it.
But you know, just keep an opencommunication with your packet
instructor, know what you wantto do, know what you want to
accomplish and you know, justreally invest as much as you can
of yourself in the program andthe more you invest, the more
you'll get back.
Read tons, I mean read themarket, and you cannot chase the
(32:49):
market because by the time youhave a great idea it's already
gonna be like passe, um.
So you can't ride waves.
But you can look at historicaltrends by looking at what's
being published as historicalnovel review.
Um, the publication of thehistorical novel.
Society has reviews of.
It's a volunteer organization,believe, believe it or not, and
it has.
(33:10):
It is, you know, kind of thebeginning and end word as far as
historical fiction and what'sbeing published.
Of course you can look atpublishers marketplace and see
what's being sold, but you don'tlook at what's just being sold
right now.
Look at, you know, thehistorical, you know record of
(33:30):
about five years to see whattrends are emerging and see if
you can find something thatfalls within that niche.
Now you may want to write a17th century book set in New
Orleans with you know all thiscool stuff and if it's a hard
sell, you know that's going tobe a hard thing to overcome.
So but look at what's you know.
It's not saying that it'simpossible.
(33:50):
And I've, you know, I've had.
I have a friend who has beentrying to see to write a book
set in a hard time time periodwith you know some things, that
kind of flaunt convention like amale protagonist.
That is not all that common inhistorical fiction.
If you're unless you'remargaret george, who wrote nero,
um, and she got an agent rightbefore christmas and her book is
(34:14):
going to be discussed in aeditorial meeting, um, in the
next few weeks.
So miracles do happen.
But it took her years, years,to finally get somebody to
listen to that idea.
Um, so, yeah, um, so that's um.
Key is look at it, read, youknow, and read widely about of
(34:34):
the books that are coming out.
Know what the style is like,know what the conventions are.
You cannot learn how to writeum effective historical fiction
that is going to be saleable byreading books that are 20 years
old.
Knowing the market, I think, isreally important for whatever
genre you're in.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Delving into the publishing world.
What were some of the biggestlessons or surprises you
encountered once you became apublished novelist?
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Well, you know, I think we all think that once I
get an agent, everything isgoing to be grand, once I get a
book deal, everything is goingto be great.
And the thing is, success isnot linear.
I have published two bookswhere I got a two book contract
with my first publisher andbefore the first book was even
out, they told me that they werenot going to publish a third,
even though I was ready to havethe second manuscript was being
(35:20):
edited, and it should have been.
The time, like once your secondmanuscript was accepted, is the
time when you're usually atliberty to pitch another book,
right and, um, if you're luckyenough to have a two book
contract, otherwise, with yourone book contract, as soon as
the you know, your first roundof edits have been accepted,
(35:41):
you're free to pitch the nextbook.
And they told me, beforepromise to the Crown had even
come out, that they were notgoing to accept my pitches, not
because they didn't like them,but because the pre-orders and
the interest in Promise to theCrown was not enough to justify
more books.
And that was a tough pill toswallow before I was even a
(36:03):
published author, before thebooks had even come out, and so
I had to go through the agony ofediting a book that I knew
would get no publisher supportwhatsoever, and it was hard.
It was really hard and you knowthere was a rough period in
there.
But I sat down with my agent andthe key in this business is
(36:23):
getting knocked down 10 timesand standing up 11.
And boy how it is so true.
The people who I know who havebeen in this business for
getting knocked down 10 timesand standing up 11.
And boy how it is so true.
The people who I know who havebeen in this business for 10
years or more, it's all peoplewho have had disaster stories
and come back swinging.
And there are plenty of peoplewho just said you know, I've
published six, seven books.
This is a rat race and I'm done, and that's fine too, and
(36:45):
there's a lot of that.
There's a lot of that too, um,but anyway.
So I sat down with my agent, um,over the phone, um, and I read
her aloud, because I have anidea file and there's literally
one sentence pitches, and one ofthem was rushing female fighter
pilots in world war two.
That's a nice segue out ofcolonial Canada, isn't it?
(37:07):
She said, yes, write that one.
That's your money, pitch kid.
And so I pitched it and she's.
I started writing.
I was about half a manuscriptin because I had to write the
whole manuscript to go back onsub.
Now, if you're already at ahouse, the rule of thumb is that
you can often get away withjust writing like a proposal and
(37:28):
it depends on the house.
Like Harper Muse, they boughtthis book on a page.
Proposal William Morrow, it'smore like a solid proposal of
three to seven pages and threechapters.
But then if you're going onsubmission, depending on how
established you are, back then Ineeded the entire manuscript
(37:50):
and it had to be pitch perfect.
Now I might be able to go awaywith 100 pages, so like a
quarter of a book maybe if I'mlucky, and a really polished
synopsis.
Um, but I'm a known, I'm a bitof a known quantity.
I'm not a big, you know, bigname, but I'm known a little bit
.
Um, yeah, I've seen her on acouple of book bub lists.
(38:10):
She's gotten like one or twotrade reviews.
Yeah, we kind of know her andso not entirely a nobody, but
like one step away and um, soanyway, uh, they, um, I was.
So I was halfway through workingon Daughters of the Night Sky,
and I didn't think that I wasgoing to have a shot to get into
(38:32):
Big Five after having two booksthat didn't do well at
Kensington, which was thelargest of the independent
presses, and so I had my eye onLake Union, and a funny story
was that Kate Quinn the KateQuinn posted on Facebook.
I stayed up way too late lastnight researching the Russian
female fighter pilots from WorldWar II and I freaked out
because I'm halfway done withthis manuscript.
(38:54):
There's a cloud of expletiveshanging over Black Forest,
colorado to this day, and my nowex-husband comes in and says
what is wrong?
Kate Quinn is writing my book.
It was going to be my big breakand, and I'm never gonna be a
published author again, this isterrible.
So in a moment of utter lack ofprofessionalism, I text her and
say, kate, you can't do this tome, I'm halfway done.
(39:15):
And she's like, oh, I've hadthis happen.
Christopher um cw gortner waswriting a book about the borgias
at the same time.
I was it'll be fine, and shesaid it was like one out of
three timelines for her and alot of her book was post-war and
so there wasn't a lot of nightwitch material and mine was like
straight night witches.
You know the story of the nightwitches and but because of that
(39:39):
post on Facebook I gotconnected with Lake Union
through Libby Hawker.
You know, funny thing, makelots of writer friends and her,
her editor, had asked her justthe previous week could you
please write a book about thenight which is?
She said no, thanks, um,because it wasn't her bailiwick
and PM on a Friday.
(39:59):
We're pitching this Lake unionon half a manuscript next week.
She rolled her eyes and saidfine, and we had a book deal in
four weeks.
Yeah, so yeah, that was thestory of fine and we had a book
deal in four weeks.
Yeah, so yeah, that was thestory of.
But that was my most successfulbook to date.
But you know, thank you to LakeUnion for that one and it was
because I was willing to reallyto pivot.
(40:19):
I had to pivot.
So I mean the, the ability,like you may say, I want to
write, you know, 17th centuryfiction for my entire career.
You want to be like, right,philippa Gregory writes true to
fiction exclusively, pam Jenoffwrites World War II stories
exclusively.
And if you can make it great.
But if you don't, or if youhave if you stumble, the ability
and the, the, the willingnessto be resilient and to pivot in
(40:43):
a new, new direction is, youknow, it's inherent to it.
That is invaluable to survivalin a new direction is.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
you know it's inherent to that is invaluable
to survival in this industry.
Very good, do you guys have?
Speaker 5 (40:56):
any questions for Amy ?
I just wanted to know how doyou usually start your research
process?
Where do you jump off?
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Usually I try to find a really good secondary source,
like for a bakery in Paris.
There's a wonderful book aboutthe Paris commune called
Massacre by John Merriman um, abook recommended by my husband.
Actually, my husband was theone that suggested when we were
first dating because I waslooking for new ideas.
And he said write about theParis commune.
And I refresh my memory, I'mlike dang Jeremy's right, and we
(41:24):
found out about the book theElder Honeymoon.
It was meant to be, anyway.
But so I start off there andthen I data mine, I read it for
a good you know kind oforientation.
It's kind of like the in-depthWikipedia article for you know
the topic and get oriented inwhat's going on, the key, you
know the key elements, the keyhistorical details, and then I
(41:44):
data mine the bibliography forthe primary sources to really
get the flavor of what was goingon and then move on from there,
often make a trip to CU Boulderand come back with, like, my
body weight in books and reallydive in.
But then for something likeMademoiselle Eiffel, where there
(42:05):
are no books, like no secondarybooks, about Clary Eiffel,
there are a healthy number ofbooks about Gustave Eiffel,
fewer than you would think,believe it or not, despite the
fact that he has created thesingle most recognizable
man-made monument in the world,and I don't think that's
(42:25):
questionable, I think it iswithout question.
I mean, you see that in spacewhere it is.
And so I had to craft togetherwhat I could, beginning off with
about her through the guise ofher father's story.
And I mean, if you look at anybiography of Gustave Vitelle,
(42:47):
claire is mentioned because sheis so integral into his life.
But you had to kind of piece ittogether and piece together a
timeline based on where he was.
So the trick for that one wasgoing to Paris twice and going,
you know, getting permission toaccess the family archives at
the Musée d'Orsay and gettingyour hands on her own
correspondence and, of course,the time period that is most
(43:10):
integral, from the time when hermother dies through the
building of the Eiffel Tower,which is, and then the Panama
Canal scandal.
Afterwards, there's actuallynot a lot of correspondence from
Claire because she is with herfather and husband almost the
entire time.
So you have to, you know, isreally weaving a story from what
(43:31):
you don't know, you knowthrough the gaps in the things
that you do know, and so it wasa real challenge but given that
my editor just got it back to meon December 15th with all caps,
I love this book.
You made me cry way more than Iexpected to.
I'm calling it a win, but itwas a real challenge from a
research perspective, whereas,like you know, the Paris commune
(43:53):
because I was not dealing withreal historical figures, for the
most part a few cameos fromreal people.
But I had the liberty to putpeople where I wanted them and
to create, but you know you'redealing with the framework of
the.
You know the political climateto create, but you're dealing
with the framework of thepolitical climate.
But then, like Girls on theLine, I had an embarrassment of
riches as far as firsthandaccounts from the women who were
(44:14):
involved as telephone operatorsin World War I, and it was a
fairly easy trip to Missouri toget all that, kansas City,
missouri.
And I got to meet the, by randomrun of happenstance, the lawyer
who, in 1979, the year I wasborn, folks, the lawyer who won
the case for the Hello Girls tobe recognized as actual veterans
(44:36):
of the United States Army.
Because they were, because theywere subject to court martial
and all the same rules, but whenthey came home, they were told
oh, you can't go to VA hospitalsand you're not going to get a
pension.
No, what were you thinking?
Told, oh, you can't go to VAhospitals and you're not going
to get a pension?
No, what were you thinking?
Because they could not becausethe you know, the Army Code of
Conduct said man, whereas, likethe Navy one, the Yale Minettes
got real, got full benefits.
(44:57):
Because it said person, not man.
Army one says man, specificallymen, and so the, the women who
had to take them to court.
And it was not until there wereonly 20 of them surviving out
of 200 plus operators that theywon the case.
But I got to meet the lawyer.
I was trying not to sob in hispresence because, like you're
amazing, but that was, you know,the universe came to me on that
(45:21):
book and that was reallyspecial, special.
But, um, I think that startingwith, um, local resources and
online resources and doing whatyou can to put things, research
trips, which are they'reexpensive, they're great, fun,
um, but they're expensive.
And so, planning, you know,when I went to paris this past
april, I had a practically aminute by minute, um you know,
(45:46):
idea of where I was going to beand what I was going to do.
Tuesday's Eiffel Tower day oneand day three and five are going
to be spent in the archives.
And then you know a list ofthings I wanted to photograph
for social media content, andyou know because I had five full
days in Paris and a list of allthe restaurants where I wanted
to eat.
Um, and it was.
(46:07):
You know it was a.
It was a very seriousundertaking to plan that trip,
but it was a delight.
So.
But having that footwork donebefore I got to Paris, I felt
like I utilized every secondeffectively.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Nicolette your question.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
Nicolette, your question, yeah, um, so how do
you kind of balance out theresearch and the writing?
Like, do you do all of yourresearch ahead of time and
you're like, uh, or do you do itlike, do you start writing
because you have the idea andyou're like, oh man, I'm already
ready to start writing, butthen you should kind of read as
you go, or like kind of, becauseI'm kind of struggling with
that, I'm writing historicalfantasy novel and it's like I am
now writing my other manuscript, a second draft, so that I can
(46:54):
take time to read for the otherone that I've already written a
couple of drafts for, cause I'mjust like that's a great that's
a strong strategy.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
I can't do it.
At the same time, yeah, I knowthat there are people who like
spend a.
At the same time, yeah, I knowthat there are people who like
spend like a year reading beforethat, and these are like the
big dogs that are writing likedoorstopper length books that
like spend a year reading beforethey start writing.
I am not that patient and, Iguess, maybe not that devoted to
like.
I'm not a historian, you know,I, I, my husband's a historian.
(47:23):
I pointed to his bookshelf,sorry, because we, we turned the
basement of our house into alibrary.
So you can tell we're a bookishnerd.
We're a very well-suited couple, anyway, but we, I will start
with that secondary source, likeMassacre for a bakery in Paris,
(47:45):
and that's usually enough toget started, one really good
secondary source.
And then getting my hands onsome of the primary sources,
like the big primary source thatI read for Girls on the Line
was Grace Branker's diary and Ihad to write her
great-granddaughter for a copyand she mailed it to me Free of
charge, like she's, like hereyou go, kid.
(48:06):
Like I mean, mean not theoriginal, but she sent me a
photocopy and like I, I scannedthe whole thing.
And then I, um, yeah, that was,that was an amazing gift.
Um, and always remember tothank those people and the thing
is like that's one trick forresearch is that there are
experts in your field or on yourtopic who would give anything
(48:26):
to have somebody willing tolisten to them for a day, like,
oh my God, they're, they're,they're really just like
information bomb.
You take advantage of thosepeople, thank them, give them
gifts, um, that is important.
Um, and thank them in the backof your book.
Um and um, but uh, so I, I trynot to get too bogged down in
(48:46):
the research.
Um, you know, really feels thin, it's not working.
Um, but uh, so I, I tried notto get too bogged down in the
research.
Um, you know, really feels thin, it's not working.
Um, that might be the time tostop and research.
Um, uh, stop and read a goodbook about the topic.
Um, and like for me that thatwith the Panama canal scandal,
man, that was a.
That was a tough section towrite.
I, I cause I wasn't all thatexcited to write it, um, and so
(49:08):
findings of the pertinentinformation really helped,
because I have to orient the thereader into what's happening
historically, um.
So you know, taking the time tostop even if you lose your word
count for the day and to readmore, to read up on a specific
topic, really helps.
So I will leave gap notes.
Like you know, research thisfact and come back and do it
(49:29):
later.
But if it's something where itwill cause a real problem, then
I will stop and research itright then, and there I try not
to lose momentum.
You know the distraction freewriting craze is there for a
reason and, of course, dealingwith stuff that far back in
history you can get, you can getthe legalities.
People aren't going tonecessarily know that.
They're going to attack you forusing, like, a wooden hairbrush
(49:52):
instead of an ivory hairbrushinstead of a wooden one or
silver one or what have you, butthey're not going to know the
intricacies of Canadian law in1666.
So you know you can feel freeto remind your readers that this
is a work of fiction.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Awesome Any parting advice you want to offer
everybody.
Speaker 3 (50:15):
You know, read a lot, write a lot, enjoy the process.
It's, you know, yes, will it bea slog.
I'm not going to tell you everyminute is just, you know, a
bundle of joy and just raptureall the time.
To tell you every minute isjust, you know, a bundle of joy
and just rapture all the time.
But enjoy the process andcelebrate your wins.
(50:36):
You know most of the people inthis business are kind and want
other people to succeed.
A rising tide lifts all boatsand add in whatever cliche you
prefer.
But you know it's tough andyou've got to thicken your armor
.
You've got to wear your armor,thicken your skin, but when you
have victories and there will bevictories celebrate them, even
if they seem small.
Love that yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
How can everybody connect with you?
Speaker 3 (50:59):
I have a website, wwwamykrenioncom, and you can
find me on Facebook, and Threadsand Threads is a lovely
community, by the way, for thewriting community, um, it's kind
of taken.
It's a like there's a lot ofbookish people on it.
It's kind of like a slightlynicer version of Twitter.
Um, though, I think the otherdark corner is that too.
(51:20):
Instagram I'm on Instagram asbookish Amy um, and TikTok even
sometimes if you want to watchmy baking videos and you know.
So I'm trying to have a socialmedia presence.
So, whatever your social mediaplatform of choice is, I'm
probably there.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
So thank you so much for coming tonight.
We appreciate you.
We got lots of knowledge andinformation, and thanks again.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
Lovely to be here.
If you have, if you think ofany questions after the fact,
please reach out.
I'm happy to help.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Awesome Will do, thank you.
Speaker 5 (51:56):
That wraps up today's craft chat chronicles with JD.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
jdmayorcom.
That's jdmayorcom.
(52:16):
While you're there, join JD'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
(00:25):
writing journey.
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmyallcom.
That's jdmyallcom.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
On season two, episode 10 of Craft Chat
Chronicles.
We are in for a real treat.
10 of Craft Chat Chronicles.
We are in for a real treat.
On today's episode we'll betalking to author Amy K Runyon,
who's penned novels like AMemory of Lavender and Sage and
A Bakery in Paris, which is outnow.
So in season two, episode 10 ofCraft Chat Chronicles, amy K
(01:00):
Runyon will give us lots ofcreative writing tips and she'll
dive into the MFA process foranyone who's interested in
getting a Master of Fine Arts.
For those of you who don't know,I'm co-chair of Drexel
University in Philadelphia's MFAAlumni Association and Amy K
(01:21):
Runyon is part of the facultyand staff of Drexel University,
so I'm really excited to getsome writing tips from her today
.
So let's get chatty.
That's season two, episode 10of Craft Chat Chronicles.
Amy K Runyon is a historicalfiction author.
She's award-winning and widelyacknowledged for her brilliance
(01:44):
as a packet exchange professorand a writer, and today she's
going to give us some tips onwriting for your packet exchange
.
If you're an MFA program, likeDrexel's low residency MFA
program, these tips could helpyou get your packet together.
And if you are not and you justwant tips to improve your
writing.
Please join us.
There's a lot to learn.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Hey, hi.
And if you are not and you justwant tips to improve your?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
writing.
Please join us.
There's a lot to learn.
For starters, can you give me alittle bit of an example of
common mistakes you find instudent writing?
Speaker 3 (02:26):
find in student writing.
Well, I think the most importantthing is that you need to
discuss your plan or your goalswith your packet instructor so
that you know what the so thepacket instructor knows what the
student is after, what theirgoals are for their career and
for this project, and I thinktaking the time to you know have
a an early conversation beforethe term your first term starts
(02:50):
is very important.
I always like to have a good 15minute chat with all my new
students so that I know what theend goal is, because, if you
know they're different, peopleare after different things,
whether they want a traditionalpublishing gig or to go into
academics, etc.
Those goals are going to lookdifferent and you know I
(03:13):
certainly have a lot more tooffer the student who's after a
traditional publishing gig,because that's where I live, and
so that's my first piece ofadvice is to really maintain an
open forum of conversation withyour packet instructor, and a
good packet instructor should bewilling to field emails all the
time, even text messages, ifyou get that comfortable and you
(03:38):
know not being afraid to ask ifsomething works or to even
throw somebody a paragraph andsay is this doing what it needs
to do and I think that that'sreally a good rapport to have.
And I think that thecounterpoint to that is knowing
what you want out of the programand knowing what you want your
piece to accomplish.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Okay.
So when reviewing the, onceyou've had the conversation,
what's your next step?
Usually with the student.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
You know I like to come up with a plan quarter by
quarter.
When are we going to, you know,are we going to?
Are you going to give me 60pages up front and we're going
to have one like two hour megazoom, or are you?
Are we going to break it up andI want you to have a specific
timeline?
One of the hardest parts aboutbeing a professional author is
(04:29):
working to deadline, but it'sjust a reality of the business
and so you've got to learn to dothat and you need to learn to.
You know, set your expectations, um, and and have a plan moving
forward.
Um, that seems to be a commontheme.
It really is.
But, yeah, having a scheduleand knowing what you want to do
for each of those quarters and,if you can, you know, if you
(04:54):
know you look at the entire, ifyou've already got a piece and
you're revising it, you know youcan break up and say I want to
work on, I want to show you mybook.
In the first three quarters,we're going to work together,
and then in the fourth quarter,I'd like to, you know, work on
some revisions of the parts thatweren't working.
That's perfectly valid, buthaving that game plan, I think
really gives the program focus.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Love that For your students who want to be
professional writers and whowant to go into traditional
publishing.
What are the strengths you mostoften see and what are the
areas you would suggest studentswork on improving?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Well, you know, I think that the best tool in your
arsenal or your toolbox is tohave a unique premise, and
that's easier said than done,and that's something that your
packet instructor can't justprovide for you.
I mean, they could, that wouldbe extremely generous, but
chances are they're keepingtheir good stuff for themselves.
(05:50):
But I think that it's importantto an understanding of the
market and understanding what isselling.
And, of course, that's verytenuous, because in historical
fiction, certain things go inwaves.
In waves, you know, for thelongest time it was the tutors,
(06:12):
and you could write a book aboutHenry VIII's second cousin,
twice removed, and somebody beinterested, because everybody
was obsessed with the tutors,likely because of the HBO show,
and then, forever, it was worldwar two.
You'll notice, I jumped on thatbandwagon.
We all did, we all did, we alldid, and that's fine.
But those bubbles, you know ebband flow and some of them last
longer than others, and so youcan't chase the market too
(06:36):
doggedly and you want to be anoutlier.
Being an outlier is both risky,but it's also where the
greatest reward was, if we lookat one of the biggest books of
2023, or I guess it was late 24,might've been early 23,.
Lessons in Chemistry was abreakout book and nobody had
written anything quite like it.
You know for, for, for you know, ever, and it's definitely you
(07:00):
were seeing more and more bookstry to emulate that.
I don't think that'snecessarily the strongest
position to be in, you know,trying to emulate a big book,
but all the same, like findingan interesting spin For me,
world War II.
You know, looking at the schoolfor German brides, nobody had
written about the Nazi brideschools.
It was a niche that nobody hadwritten about.
Yeah, okay.
(07:21):
So you know it's reallyimportant to be aware of what's
happening in the market, but youdon't want to chase the trend
too doggedly because you don'tknow what's going to happen.
You're aware of what's beingpublished and you're actively
(07:47):
reading a lot of what'shappening in your genre.
Is is very important becauseyou'll be able to get a sense of
where things might be headed.
And of course we have periods inhistorical fiction where it's
kind of that weird gap wherenobody knows what the next big
thing is, and it's really kindof a hard time to try to write
historical fiction.
But it's also a time to throwweird stuff out there, like oh,
you haven't seen a book set in1840, you know, I don't know
(08:13):
North Central Canada, I mean,and actually that was how my
debut happened.
I wrote a book that was set in1666, canada, but it was in the
period between, you know, whenthe Tudors were in decline and
before World War II had reallytaken off, and that, you know, I
found a publisher that waswilling to give it a shot and
(08:34):
say, you know, let's see, maybeCanadian Colonial will be the
next big thing Spoiler.
It wasn't, but, you know, atleast I got a debut, um, and
that's a very fortunate thingvery true, very true.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
What do you see um as being the topics that are
coming in right now, that seemto be popular in the ebb and
flow today?
Speaker 3 (08:57):
um topics that are popular.
I think we're seeing inhistorical fiction.
We're seeing a lot of later20th century.
Obviously, the big book so farthis year is the Women by
Kristen Hanna, which is Vietnamera.
I'm not sure that everybody canpull that off.
I mean, kristen Hanna couldpublish a phone book and people
would buy it.
But you know, I think that,like 1950s through the 1980s are
(09:20):
going to have a moment andwe're also seeing things
creeping earlier which isexciting to a lot of historical
fiction folks.
Victorian era and even earlierin the 19th century are.
You know, there's getting somenibbles and that's really
exciting.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Cool, cool.
Are there any commonalities?
You've noticed from the packetsthat you see, as far as just in
general, like things that kidstoday, like, really seem to be
good at.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
I think that one of the thing the problem bits I see
in a lot of the piecesespecially historical pieces,
but not always historical isinfo dumping, where you know
you've got this paragraph of youknow really interesting
information about I don't knowum, about the pilgrims landing
(11:38):
on plymouth rock or somethinglike that, and it's fascinating.
But you really need to be moredeft about how you work it into
the narrative so it doesn't feellike all of a sudden you
stopped and you're reading likekincaid's Guide to American
History, published in 1984, thatwe all read in high school,
right, and we want to make itpart of the narrative, make it
(12:02):
advance the plot and that'ssomething like every.
When you reread your stuff andyou should your packet exchange
instructor should not be readinga first draft.
They really shouldn't Take thetime to reread your stuff.
If you can and this is a bigask have some other people from
the program or other authors orother readers or you know I've
(12:23):
got a lot of people who have hadsensitivity readers for various
things have some other peopleread it before you send it to
your packet instructor so thatwe can talk about.
If it's like building up a house, you need to make sure that the
foundation is solid, yourframing is in great shape, so
that we're talking about colorsamples and drapes and you know,
(12:45):
and maybe a bit of wiring, butwe don't want to be talking
about.
You know the basic foundationsof your story.
You know we want to talk abouthow to make your prose smoother
and you know how to make thedialogue flow and that sort of
thing.
We don't want to be talkingabout the bare bones like this
entire chapter.
I've never had that happen,thankfully, but this entire
(13:06):
chapter is not advancing theplot.
So you need to really, you know, read back over your stuff and
ask yourself is X, y, y and zadvancing the plot?
And that doesn't mean that youdidn't need to write it.
I have a chapter in the book I'mworking on now, but I'm really
glad I wrote.
It's like exposition about themain character's job and what
(13:26):
she does, and it's superinteresting, at least to me.
But it's the.
It's keeping the character frommoving on into the main action
of the story and so it's goingto get either condensed or cut
all the way out, and that's fine.
But it gives me some of herbackstory.
That will make the rest of thestory richer.
Love that.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, yeah.
What best advice do you havefor students on the very first
few pages when they're justgetting started?
How can they most impress youor intrigue the reader when you,
when they first open up theirpacket or their chapter first
chapter?
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Okay, and this is one of the hardest things.
Even you I've written you know,quite a few books, knowing
where to start the story.
I want to see that you've spentsome time considering is this
the moment where we need tostart the story?
And I remember you know thebook that I'm in it edits right
now.
I sent sample chapters to myeditor or my agent a couple of
(14:26):
times and she's like you're notstarting at the right place.
And I had it.
You know it was a very quietscene with an older sister
looking after her siblingswaiting for their mom to pass
away, which you know.
There's some tension there butit was far better to have, you
know, a contentious family mealafter the funeral with a really
nasty grandmother, and you know.
(14:47):
So.
You want to grab people'sattention right away and that's
what makes prologues kind of awhat's the word?
It can make them a scary choiceor it can make them a very
difficult, challenging choice,because you have to.
You have to set up the, thestory, and if you're jumping to
(15:08):
a scene that we don't have a lotof context for, even if it's
really gripping and fun, wedon't care about the characters
yet because the single mostimportant thing and this is
sweeping advice for everybodywho picks up pen and paper or,
you know, starts typing the mostimportant thing you have to do
is to make your reader careabout the character.
(15:29):
Everything else, every singleother thing, is gravy.
You can write the most basickind of monosyllabic prose and
well, people will be annoyed bythat, to be sure.
But if you make them care aboutyour characters, they may keep
reading.
And that's the trick to keepingpeople reading, because it's
not just about getting people totake an interest in your book
(15:51):
and to click on your book andmaybe buy your book, and then
you don't want them to leave iton a shelf or just open it up
and do not finish, or on theirKindle what have you?
You want them to finish thebook and to review the book and
to become fans and talk aboutyour book, to proselytize about
your books.
That's the end goal.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Now, what advice do you have for making people care
about the characters?
What?
Speaker 3 (16:18):
I think, making your characters, you know, complex
and interesting, putting somethought into the challenges
they're going to face.
Because the difference, youknow, a comedy and we're talking
in, like the greek, theoriginal kind of greek of the
term A comedy is where you havea hero facing challenges that
(16:39):
their unique set of flaws willmake difficult, but they will
ultimately overcome it.
A tragedy is where the hero'sflaws are such that it makes it
incompatible with any sort ofvictory.
So if you think about thedifference between, let's say,
much Ado About Nothing andOthello, we see that those
(17:04):
characters, ultimately we haveone who is able to hear reason
and to believe that his partnerwas not unfaithful, whereas the
other wasn't.
Those stories really areopposite sides of the same coin.
We have a husband who believeshe's been cheated on, or a
(17:25):
fiancée, in that case, whobelieves he's been cheated on,
but he ultimately listens toreason and believes that his
bride didn't cheat on him, andthey get to have their happy
ever after.
For Othello, the opposite istrue he believes the rumors and
Desdemona pays the price for it,and so either of those endings
(17:45):
are valid.
I'm going to say that the MuchAdo About Nothing ending is
going to be the one that'sprobably more appealing to
American markets.
You know it's tough to say, butit all has to be the one that's
probably more appealing toAmerican markets.
Hard, you know, tough to say,but not like it all has to be
buttoned up and beautiful, butending on a an optimistic note.
But either of those are arevalid.
But you, you want to havecharacters.
(18:06):
You thought about what makesthem tick.
Whether you're looking at theEnneagram and thinking about
their different personalitytypes or arc, you know, or the
Jungian archetypes or what haveyou, or whether you're just
ripping off the cuff.
Think about what are thesituations in which your
(18:27):
character will excel and do well, and then the things that are
going to really be their, theirroadblock, their hindrance, and
how do they react under stress,because you need to be putting
your characters under stress orwe don't have much of a story
very true, very true.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Um, I found in my packet exchanges that, like
different packet exchangeteachers gave me different
things um, developmental stuff,and heather christie was really,
really good with detail, likeshe would point out little
setting things that I could, youknow, make a little better,
that I never like saw and I Iwas like, hey, love that.
(19:07):
But they both elevated mywriting and helped me become
better.
What do you think are yourstrong suits?
What do you think that is Ifyou had to pick?
I know you have many skill sets, but if you had to pick, what
do you think that your thing ismost?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
You know I'm I think I'm pretty good at weeding out
the things that are bogging downthe pacing, because pacing, you
know, we've got an impatientsociety.
I hate to say it, but you knowwe've got.
You know people have less time.
It is not like the 1880s, youknow I've got these.
You know classic books above me, les Miserables, right there,
nobody would you know, back thenVictor Hugo had and he also, I
(19:43):
believe, published that one inserial.
But people had, you know,published that one in Serial.
Even farmers and things likethat, who might have read novels
in the winter, when the cropswere fallow or whatever, they
had longer bouts of time withvery little else to do.
They'd read by the Fire atnight or what have you.
(20:04):
But nowadays we have so muchcompetition for our leisure time
and you know people arespending a lot of time in the
office and we have jobs that arementally taxing and so a lot of
people.
I mean you've got to find orkeep the pacing going, or people
are going to end up scrollingon their phones it's just, you
know or watching Netflix or whathave you, because people are
(20:24):
tired at the end of the day,they want something, a story
that is going to propel them,and that's not to say that they
don't want an immersive story,that they can swim in a little
bit, but you really have to makesure that the pacing holds up,
and that's one thing I'm kind ofruthless about.
Like this paragraph is notserving you, it's weighting it
down, because that's the thingthat I always, you know, try to,
(20:46):
especially now that I've.
I mean, it's a little biteasier in historical fiction
because there's so many activethings and if you're writing,
you know World War II or evenpost World War II, or you know
the Franco-Prussian war, there,you know, things were getting
slow toss in an explosion,everything's great.
But you know I've transitionedno-transcript.
(21:31):
So that's what I really kind ofruthlessly try to look for in
my students packets are the waysto make the pacing tighter.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Love that and that's something they're going to need
to get published, because mostagents, if it slows down, if
they find it slow, they're goingto put it down, they're going
to be bored and move on to thenext.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, I mean we've got.
We live in a society wherethere's a lot of competition for
our entertainment time, whichis actually less than it used to
be in times past.
I mean, people either had zeroor a lot, it seems, if we're
looking at 19th century or whathave you.
But you know, and you know someof that pacing stuff.
It's amazing how, just lookingat your dialogue tags or, you
know, just looking at things atthe line or the paragraph level,
(22:14):
can you cut a few words out ofthat sentence and it tightens
everything down so it feels likeit flows faster and that's
important.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Very true, very true, very true, very true.
So overall um story and packetadvice that you think would help
as far as in the packetexchange and in the whole novel
grade process as making sure theend of the bag and making your
endings good, what are some tipsyou can toss out?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
yeah, you know, I think that you know making sure
that.
Yeah, you know, I think thatyou know making sure that you've
got.
You know, I think it wouldpersonally be ideal to come into
the program with a book written, but not everybody does.
A lot of my students have, andthat's great because we can
workshop the heck out of it andwe're not dealing with first
draft stuff.
This is a great position to bein.
(23:05):
But if you aren't, you know,have a solid outline and know
where you're going.
And that doesn't mean thereisn't room for organic discovery
.
You know, and that's one of thethings where you know I've had
characters like pop up out ofnowhere, you know when I even
then I've got a tightly outlinedbook and I know what all the
banner time, the banner events,are the structure given to us by
(23:27):
the actual historical events.
But all of a sudden thischaracter pops up in a classroom
and she becomes somebody thatshould have probably had a POV.
You know, been a POV characterin a book and that's fun.
It's a great deal of funbecause, above all, you should
be enjoying what you're doing.
Maybe not every minute of it,but it should be on the whole
(23:48):
fun.
But just know what you're doing.
The MFA program is a very shortperiod of time.
Go in there with a battle planand know what you want to do,
know what you want to accomplishand don't shortchange yourself
by rushing to meet deadlines etcetera and so forth.
You know, put yourself in aposition where you've got time
(24:14):
to revise and think things overbefore you submit to your packet
instructor so that they'reworking with your work.
As you know, the work that isas good as you can make it on
your own.
It doesn't mean it has to beflawless.
It't have to be flawless Idon't want to intimidate people
like that but it needs to be thebest work you know more or less
than um that that you can makewithout the help of an editor.
(24:37):
And then the editor or yourpacket exchange instructor, your
agent um, should help you takeit to the next level.
And and you know I've alwayssaid that a good editorial
letter is like a free MFA course, and so you really want people
to be working with people whoaren't afraid to tell you when
things aren't working.
(24:57):
You know, but thick skinbecause those comments I mean.
Of course there are maliciouspeople out there, but by and
large everybody at Drexel is.
You know everybody wants to seeyou succeed.
Certainly your editors andagents should be there too, you
know down the road.
But you really want to developa thick skin so that you can
absorb all those comments,because chances are they're
(25:17):
designed to not saying everysingle one of them is valid, but
you know the end goal is tryingto make your work better, so
you should at least considereverything that's being said,
even if you don't incorporateall of it.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Very true, very true.
For those who are watching thatare not in Drexel, encourage
them to come to the program.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Let them know what makes our program special and
why they should be dragons well,you know, I, first of all, I
love Drexel, I love the programat Drexel.
I am a, I am a, you know, adragon for life.
And, um, what I think is greatis that they take, um, you know,
people who are serious abouttheir craft and serious about
(25:59):
teaching students how to be, youknow, the best writer they can
be.
But they pair it with a lot ofbusiness savvy so that we're not
shoving students out into thepublishing world without an idea
of how to swim in a very, verylarge, very confusing ocean run
by English majors.
And you know, the publishingworld is hard, it's hard and
(26:24):
breaking in is extremely hard.
And the fact that you graduatefrom Drexel having met real
agents, real editors, been toNew York during the residency to
see, to be in the room where ithappens, is, I think, it's an
invaluable experience.
That doesn't happen in a lot ofother MFA programs that are
designed to help make peoplewrite beautiful academic short
(26:46):
stories but aren't designed tohelp people become commercial
novelists.
And really, you know, it'salmost easier to get to, to get
a publishing gig and to become apublished novelist than it is
to find an academic, you know, afull time academic job.
That's just the reality of it,because a lot of people say,
well, I want to be a writer, butI can get a job teaching
(27:07):
creative writing at theuniversity level and have time
to write, and yeah, it's greatwhen that works out, but there
are so many people who want tobe in that job, it's extremely
competitive.
So, you know, just focusing onbeing successful in the industry
and knowing how the industryworks is invaluable, and so I
recommend the programwholeheartedly.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Me too, because when you graduate, it doesn't end.
Yeah, it's true, the alumni MFAwe keep doing craft chats and
things like this.
So you're still connecting,you're still part of the family
and you're still trying toinform others.
So it's a great program.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
It is, and yeah, so that's a great program it is,
and yeah, it really is a greatprogram and I know that the most
of us packet instructors.
If you want to reach out andsay you know, I hey, um amy,
I've tweaked my query letter.
Would you mind looking at itbefore I send it out, or can?
Can you help me look over thispassage before I query, or that
sort of thing?
(28:07):
Most of us will be happy to doit.
We want to see you succeed.
We want to hear about all yourgood news, because you know we
feel like we got to help alittle and that's, you know,
that's exciting for us becausewe care about you, and that's
the great thing about thewriting community in general.
I expected it when I startedwriting to be cutthroat and
competitive, and you know it iscompetitive.
(28:28):
But you know, as the sayinggoes, a rising tide lifts all
boats, and so the success ofyour friends and colleagues can
equate to success for you too,because book sales beget book
sales, and so there's room foreverybody at the table.
And I've just used 87 clichesin the same sentence, and that's
fine, but it's the truth.
It's the truth.
It really is a community.
And I've just used 87 clichesin the same sentence, and that's
(28:49):
fine, but but it's the truth.
It's the truth.
It really is a community andthe fact that the most
successful writers that I knoware the most you know generous
and open and caring people isfor a darn good reason because
they engender support from theirpeers and they say you know
what that person is, it was sokind, they shared my cover.
(29:10):
They're always rooting me onand that sort of thing.
I'm going to do the same forthem and that's how it works.
And it's not transactional,it's breeding good karma very
true.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah, what tools do you think?
Because you mentioned earlierwhen you were saying that they
should have it as polished aspossible before they present it?
To you so are there any toolsor resources you would suggest,
like maybe um like is there anyeditors that you would point out
, or like any places where theycould meet?
Beta readers or something likethat, if they had.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I mean goodness, at this point, do not hire a
professional editor, becauseinvest your money in the MFA
because you should come out ofit with a fairly clean document.
But you know, beta readers areinvaluable and I think that you
know every region has variouswriter groups, like for here.
I'm in Colorado and in ourregion we have Rocky Mountain
(30:04):
Fiction Writers, and it's agreat place.
In our region we have RockyMountain Fiction Writers, and
it's a great place.
You know, the conference isonce a year and I would not be
where I am if I hadn't investedthe money to go, to spend time
at the RMFW conference and tomake contacts.
(30:25):
And you know, I remember myfirst time going to the RMFW
conference, going to the RMFWconference, I went to a panel on
the care and feeding of onlinecritique groups, which are the.
I mean online critique groupsare so handy in this day and age
because picking up, you know,getting up and commuting to some
library room or something tomeet with six or seven other
people.
It can be hard, but everybodycan Zoom.
And anyway, I had a young womancome sit next to me, hand me a
(30:47):
business card and say we're in acritique group now, we're
friends, deal with it and we'vebeen friends for 10 years now
and 11 years, oh my goodness.
And you know she published twonovels that did very well.
I've published a whole slew andour critique group is no longer
really, but you know it was aplace where a lot of us kind of
found our traction or didn't.
So a critique group is nolonger really, but you know it
was a place where a lot of uskind of found our traction or
(31:10):
didn't.
So a critique group is awonderful thing to have people
who are at your stage.
I mean it's good to have arange like people who are
aspiring, people who are gettinginto the market and people who
are, you know, somewhatestablished in the market, to
find a good mix so thateverybody can help everybody out
.
Because you know, even thepeople who are established will
benefit from the eyes of peoplewho aren't already like kind of
(31:32):
jaded a bit by the industry.
And you know, because we dobecome a bit jaded, it's a hard
business and it's okay, it'sworth it.
But you know, having that mixof ability levels is really
handy.
But a lot of almost everyregion of the country is going
to have various organization andyou can look by genre.
(31:52):
Um, my group was definitelymulti-genre, but if you want to
have a romance um critique groupor a historical fiction or a
mystery critique group, that'sgreat too.
Um, but then you know you can,you can, you can basically reach
out to those organizationswherever you are, and they often
have like a matchmaking systemto put people in critique groups
(32:14):
or to find critique partners,because it's something that
every kind of debut writer needs.
Very good, very good.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Is there any other packet advice that we have or
that we didn't cover that youcan think of?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I think that's a lot of it.
But you know, just keep an opencommunication with your packet
instructor, know what you wantto do, know what you want to
accomplish and you know, justreally invest as much as you can
of yourself in the program andthe more you invest, the more
you'll get back.
Read tons, I mean read themarket, and you cannot chase the
(32:49):
market because by the time youhave a great idea it's already
gonna be like passe, um.
So you can't ride waves.
But you can look at historicaltrends by looking at what's
being published as historicalnovel review.
Um, the publication of thehistorical novel.
Society has reviews of.
It's a volunteer organization,believe, believe it or not, and
it has.
(33:10):
It is, you know, kind of thebeginning and end word as far as
historical fiction and what'sbeing published.
Of course you can look atpublishers marketplace and see
what's being sold, but you don'tlook at what's just being sold
right now.
Look at, you know, thehistorical, you know record of
(33:30):
about five years to see whattrends are emerging and see if
you can find something thatfalls within that niche.
Now you may want to write a17th century book set in New
Orleans with you know all thiscool stuff and if it's a hard
sell, you know that's going tobe a hard thing to overcome.
So but look at what's you know.
It's not saying that it'simpossible.
(33:50):
And I've, you know, I've had.
I have a friend who has beentrying to see to write a book
set in a hard time time periodwith you know some things, that
kind of flaunt convention like amale protagonist.
That is not all that common inhistorical fiction.
If you're unless you'remargaret george, who wrote nero,
um, and she got an agent rightbefore christmas and her book is
(34:14):
going to be discussed in aeditorial meeting, um, in the
next few weeks.
So miracles do happen.
But it took her years, years,to finally get somebody to
listen to that idea.
Um, so, yeah, um, so that's um.
Key is look at it, read, youknow, and read widely about of
(34:34):
the books that are coming out.
Know what the style is like,know what the conventions are.
You cannot learn how to writeum effective historical fiction
that is going to be saleable byreading books that are 20 years
old.
Knowing the market, I think, isreally important for whatever
genre you're in.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Delving into the publishing world.
What were some of the biggestlessons or surprises you
encountered once you became apublished novelist?
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Well, you know, I think we all think that once I
get an agent, everything isgoing to be grand, once I get a
book deal, everything is goingto be great.
And the thing is, success isnot linear.
I have published two bookswhere I got a two book contract
with my first publisher andbefore the first book was even
out, they told me that they werenot going to publish a third,
even though I was ready to havethe second manuscript was being
(35:20):
edited, and it should have been.
The time, like once your secondmanuscript was accepted, is the
time when you're usually atliberty to pitch another book,
right and, um, if you're luckyenough to have a two book
contract, otherwise, with yourone book contract, as soon as
the you know, your first roundof edits have been accepted,
(35:41):
you're free to pitch the nextbook.
And they told me, beforepromise to the Crown had even
come out, that they were notgoing to accept my pitches, not
because they didn't like them,but because the pre-orders and
the interest in Promise to theCrown was not enough to justify
more books.
And that was a tough pill toswallow before I was even a
(36:03):
published author, before thebooks had even come out, and so
I had to go through the agony ofediting a book that I knew
would get no publisher supportwhatsoever, and it was hard.
It was really hard and you knowthere was a rough period in
there.
But I sat down with my agent andthe key in this business is
(36:23):
getting knocked down 10 timesand standing up 11.
And boy how it is so true.
The people who I know who havebeen in this business for
getting knocked down 10 timesand standing up 11.
And boy how it is so true.
The people who I know who havebeen in this business for 10
years or more, it's all peoplewho have had disaster stories
and come back swinging.
And there are plenty of peoplewho just said you know, I've
published six, seven books.
This is a rat race and I'm done, and that's fine too, and
(36:45):
there's a lot of that.
There's a lot of that too, um,but anyway.
So I sat down with my agent, um,over the phone, um, and I read
her aloud, because I have anidea file and there's literally
one sentence pitches, and one ofthem was rushing female fighter
pilots in world war two.
That's a nice segue out ofcolonial Canada, isn't it?
(37:07):
She said, yes, write that one.
That's your money, pitch kid.
And so I pitched it and she's.
I started writing.
I was about half a manuscriptin because I had to write the
whole manuscript to go back onsub.
Now, if you're already at ahouse, the rule of thumb is that
you can often get away withjust writing like a proposal and
(37:28):
it depends on the house.
Like Harper Muse, they boughtthis book on a page.
Proposal William Morrow, it'smore like a solid proposal of
three to seven pages and threechapters.
But then if you're going onsubmission, depending on how
established you are, back then Ineeded the entire manuscript
(37:50):
and it had to be pitch perfect.
Now I might be able to go awaywith 100 pages, so like a
quarter of a book maybe if I'mlucky, and a really polished
synopsis.
Um, but I'm a known, I'm a bitof a known quantity.
I'm not a big, you know, bigname, but I'm known a little bit
.
Um, yeah, I've seen her on acouple of book bub lists.
(38:10):
She's gotten like one or twotrade reviews.
Yeah, we kind of know her andso not entirely a nobody, but
like one step away and um, soanyway, uh, they, um, I was.
So I was halfway through workingon Daughters of the Night Sky,
and I didn't think that I wasgoing to have a shot to get into
(38:32):
Big Five after having two booksthat didn't do well at
Kensington, which was thelargest of the independent
presses, and so I had my eye onLake Union, and a funny story
was that Kate Quinn the KateQuinn posted on Facebook.
I stayed up way too late lastnight researching the Russian
female fighter pilots from WorldWar II and I freaked out
because I'm halfway done withthis manuscript.
(38:54):
There's a cloud of expletiveshanging over Black Forest,
colorado to this day, and my nowex-husband comes in and says
what is wrong?
Kate Quinn is writing my book.
It was going to be my big breakand, and I'm never gonna be a
published author again, this isterrible.
So in a moment of utter lack ofprofessionalism, I text her and
say, kate, you can't do this tome, I'm halfway done.
(39:15):
And she's like, oh, I've hadthis happen.
Christopher um cw gortner waswriting a book about the borgias
at the same time.
I was it'll be fine, and shesaid it was like one out of
three timelines for her and alot of her book was post-war and
so there wasn't a lot of nightwitch material and mine was like
straight night witches.
You know the story of the nightwitches and but because of that
(39:39):
post on Facebook I gotconnected with Lake Union
through Libby Hawker.
You know, funny thing, makelots of writer friends and her,
her editor, had asked her justthe previous week could you
please write a book about thenight which is?
She said no, thanks, um,because it wasn't her bailiwick
and PM on a Friday.
(39:59):
We're pitching this Lake unionon half a manuscript next week.
She rolled her eyes and saidfine, and we had a book deal in
four weeks.
Yeah, so yeah, that was thestory of fine and we had a book
deal in four weeks.
Yeah, so yeah, that was thestory of.
But that was my most successfulbook to date.
But you know, thank you to LakeUnion for that one and it was
because I was willing to reallyto pivot.
(40:19):
I had to pivot.
So I mean the, the ability,like you may say, I want to
write, you know, 17th centuryfiction for my entire career.
You want to be like, right,philippa Gregory writes true to
fiction exclusively, pam Jenoffwrites World War II stories
exclusively.
And if you can make it great.
But if you don't, or if youhave if you stumble, the ability
and the, the, the willingnessto be resilient and to pivot in
(40:43):
a new, new direction is, youknow, it's inherent to it.
That is invaluable to survivalin a new direction is.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
you know it's inherent to that is invaluable
to survival in this industry.
Very good, do you guys have?
Speaker 5 (40:56):
any questions for Amy ?
I just wanted to know how doyou usually start your research
process?
Where do you jump off?
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Usually I try to find a really good secondary source,
like for a bakery in Paris.
There's a wonderful book aboutthe Paris commune called
Massacre by John Merriman um, abook recommended by my husband.
Actually, my husband was theone that suggested when we were
first dating because I waslooking for new ideas.
And he said write about theParis commune.
And I refresh my memory, I'mlike dang Jeremy's right, and we
(41:24):
found out about the book theElder Honeymoon.
It was meant to be, anyway.
But so I start off there andthen I data mine, I read it for
a good you know kind oforientation.
It's kind of like the in-depthWikipedia article for you know
the topic and get oriented inwhat's going on, the key, you
know the key elements, the keyhistorical details, and then I
(41:44):
data mine the bibliography forthe primary sources to really
get the flavor of what was goingon and then move on from there,
often make a trip to CU Boulderand come back with, like, my
body weight in books and reallydive in.
But then for something likeMademoiselle Eiffel, where there
(42:05):
are no books, like no secondarybooks, about Clary Eiffel,
there are a healthy number ofbooks about Gustave Eiffel,
fewer than you would think,believe it or not, despite the
fact that he has created thesingle most recognizable
man-made monument in the world,and I don't think that's
(42:25):
questionable, I think it iswithout question.
I mean, you see that in spacewhere it is.
And so I had to craft togetherwhat I could, beginning off with
about her through the guise ofher father's story.
And I mean, if you look at anybiography of Gustave Vitelle,
(42:47):
claire is mentioned because sheis so integral into his life.
But you had to kind of piece ittogether and piece together a
timeline based on where he was.
So the trick for that one wasgoing to Paris twice and going,
you know, getting permission toaccess the family archives at
the Musée d'Orsay and gettingyour hands on her own
correspondence and, of course,the time period that is most
(43:10):
integral, from the time when hermother dies through the
building of the Eiffel Tower,which is, and then the Panama
Canal scandal.
Afterwards, there's actuallynot a lot of correspondence from
Claire because she is with herfather and husband almost the
entire time.
So you have to, you know, isreally weaving a story from what
(43:31):
you don't know, you knowthrough the gaps in the things
that you do know, and so it wasa real challenge but given that
my editor just got it back to meon December 15th with all caps,
I love this book.
You made me cry way more than Iexpected to.
I'm calling it a win, but itwas a real challenge from a
research perspective, whereas,like you know, the Paris commune
(43:53):
because I was not dealing withreal historical figures, for the
most part a few cameos fromreal people.
But I had the liberty to putpeople where I wanted them and
to create, but you know you'redealing with the framework of
the.
You know the political climateto create, but you're dealing
with the framework of thepolitical climate.
But then, like Girls on theLine, I had an embarrassment of
riches as far as firsthandaccounts from the women who were
(44:14):
involved as telephone operatorsin World War I, and it was a
fairly easy trip to Missouri toget all that, kansas City,
missouri.
And I got to meet the, by randomrun of happenstance, the lawyer
who, in 1979, the year I wasborn, folks, the lawyer who won
the case for the Hello Girls tobe recognized as actual veterans
(44:36):
of the United States Army.
Because they were, because theywere subject to court martial
and all the same rules, but whenthey came home, they were told
oh, you can't go to VA hospitalsand you're not going to get a
pension.
No, what were you thinking?
Told, oh, you can't go to VAhospitals and you're not going
to get a pension?
No, what were you thinking?
Because they could not becausethe you know, the Army Code of
Conduct said man, whereas, likethe Navy one, the Yale Minettes
got real, got full benefits.
(44:57):
Because it said person, not man.
Army one says man, specificallymen, and so the, the women who
had to take them to court.
And it was not until there wereonly 20 of them surviving out
of 200 plus operators that theywon the case.
But I got to meet the lawyer.
I was trying not to sob in hispresence because, like you're
amazing, but that was, you know,the universe came to me on that
(45:21):
book and that was reallyspecial, special.
But, um, I think that startingwith, um, local resources and
online resources and doing whatyou can to put things, research
trips, which are they'reexpensive, they're great, fun,
um, but they're expensive.
And so, planning, you know,when I went to paris this past
april, I had a practically aminute by minute, um you know,
(45:46):
idea of where I was going to beand what I was going to do.
Tuesday's Eiffel Tower day oneand day three and five are going
to be spent in the archives.
And then you know a list ofthings I wanted to photograph
for social media content, andyou know because I had five full
days in Paris and a list of allthe restaurants where I wanted
to eat.
Um, and it was.
(46:07):
You know it was a.
It was a very seriousundertaking to plan that trip,
but it was a delight.
So.
But having that footwork donebefore I got to Paris, I felt
like I utilized every secondeffectively.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Nicolette your question.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
Nicolette, your question, yeah, um, so how do
you kind of balance out theresearch and the writing?
Like, do you do all of yourresearch ahead of time and
you're like, uh, or do you do itlike, do you start writing
because you have the idea andyou're like, oh man, I'm already
ready to start writing, butthen you should kind of read as
you go, or like kind of, becauseI'm kind of struggling with
that, I'm writing historicalfantasy novel and it's like I am
now writing my other manuscript, a second draft, so that I can
(46:54):
take time to read for the otherone that I've already written a
couple of drafts for, cause I'mjust like that's a great that's
a strong strategy.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
I can't do it.
At the same time, yeah, I knowthat there are people who like
spend a.
At the same time, yeah, I knowthat there are people who like
spend like a year reading beforethat, and these are like the
big dogs that are writing likedoorstopper length books that
like spend a year reading beforethey start writing.
I am not that patient and, Iguess, maybe not that devoted to
like.
I'm not a historian, you know,I, I, my husband's a historian.
(47:23):
I pointed to his bookshelf,sorry, because we, we turned the
basement of our house into alibrary.
So you can tell we're a bookishnerd.
We're a very well-suited couple, anyway, but we, I will start
with that secondary source, likeMassacre for a bakery in Paris,
(47:45):
and that's usually enough toget started, one really good
secondary source.
And then getting my hands onsome of the primary sources,
like the big primary source thatI read for Girls on the Line
was Grace Branker's diary and Ihad to write her
great-granddaughter for a copyand she mailed it to me Free of
charge, like she's, like hereyou go, kid.
(48:06):
Like I mean, mean not theoriginal, but she sent me a
photocopy and like I, I scannedthe whole thing.
And then I, um, yeah, that was,that was an amazing gift.
Um, and always remember tothank those people and the thing
is like that's one trick forresearch is that there are
experts in your field or on yourtopic who would give anything
(48:26):
to have somebody willing tolisten to them for a day, like,
oh my God, they're, they're,they're really just like
information bomb.
You take advantage of thosepeople, thank them, give them
gifts, um, that is important.
Um, and thank them in the backof your book.
Um and um, but uh, so I, I trynot to get too bogged down in
(48:46):
the research.
Um, you know, really feels thin, it's not working.
Um, but uh, so I, I tried notto get too bogged down in the
research.
Um, you know, really feels thin, it's not working.
Um, that might be the time tostop and research.
Um, uh, stop and read a goodbook about the topic.
Um, and like for me that thatwith the Panama canal scandal,
man, that was a.
That was a tough section towrite.
I, I cause I wasn't all thatexcited to write it, um, and so
(49:08):
findings of the pertinentinformation really helped,
because I have to orient the thereader into what's happening
historically, um.
So you know, taking the time tostop even if you lose your word
count for the day and to readmore, to read up on a specific
topic, really helps.
So I will leave gap notes.
Like you know, research thisfact and come back and do it
(49:29):
later.
But if it's something where itwill cause a real problem, then
I will stop and research itright then, and there I try not
to lose momentum.
You know the distraction freewriting craze is there for a
reason and, of course, dealingwith stuff that far back in
history you can get, you can getthe legalities.
People aren't going tonecessarily know that.
They're going to attack you forusing, like, a wooden hairbrush
(49:52):
instead of an ivory hairbrushinstead of a wooden one or
silver one or what have you, butthey're not going to know the
intricacies of Canadian law in1666.
So you know you can feel freeto remind your readers that this
is a work of fiction.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Awesome Any parting advice you want to offer
everybody.
Speaker 3 (50:15):
You know, read a lot, write a lot, enjoy the process.
It's, you know, yes, will it bea slog.
I'm not going to tell you everyminute is just, you know, a
bundle of joy and just raptureall the time.
To tell you every minute isjust, you know, a bundle of joy
and just rapture all the time.
But enjoy the process andcelebrate your wins.
(50:36):
You know most of the people inthis business are kind and want
other people to succeed.
A rising tide lifts all boatsand add in whatever cliche you
prefer.
But you know it's tough andyou've got to thicken your armor
.
You've got to wear your armor,thicken your skin, but when you
have victories and there will bevictories celebrate them, even
if they seem small.
Love that yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
How can everybody connect with you?
Speaker 3 (50:59):
I have a website, wwwamykrenioncom, and you can
find me on Facebook, and Threadsand Threads is a lovely
community, by the way, for thewriting community, um, it's kind
of taken.
It's a like there's a lot ofbookish people on it.
It's kind of like a slightlynicer version of Twitter.
Um, though, I think the otherdark corner is that too.
(51:20):
Instagram I'm on Instagram asbookish Amy um, and TikTok even
sometimes if you want to watchmy baking videos and you know.
So I'm trying to have a socialmedia presence.
So, whatever your social mediaplatform of choice is, I'm
probably there.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
So thank you so much for coming tonight.
We appreciate you.
We got lots of knowledge andinformation, and thanks again.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
Lovely to be here.
If you have, if you think ofany questions after the fact,
please reach out.
I'm happy to help.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
Awesome Will do, thank you.
Speaker 5 (51:56):
That wraps up today's craft chat chronicles with JD.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
jdmayorcom.
That's jdmayorcom.
(52:16):
While you're there, join JD'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
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