December 6, 2025 • 75 mins
Ever wondered what it takes to transition from a high school English teacher to a vice president at a top literary agency? Susie Townsend shares her compelling story of uncertainty, bold moves, and serendipitous opportunities that led her to New Leaf Literary and Media. You'll uncover her insights on the publishing industry's inner workings, from managing a plethora of author projects to navigating unexpected crises. If you're curious about the rise of "romantasy" in YA fiction or the daily hustle of a literary agent, this conversation is a goldmine of information.
Join us as we explore the dynamic world of literary agenting with Susie Townsend. She offers a rare peek into her daily responsibilities, juggling hundreds of emails, endless meetings, and the ever-evolving demands of authors and publishers. Susie’s perspective on current literary trends and her tips for aspiring writers and agents are invaluable. Learn what she looks for in potential bestsellers and how she ensures authors focus on their writing while she handles the rest.
Finally, we delve into the art of storytelling, from crafting compelling scenes to ensuring satisfying endings. Susie provides expert advice on entering scenes late and exiting early, omitting unnecessary details, and integrating crucial elements to keep readers engaged. We also discuss the intricate dynamics of the author-agent relationship, emphasizing good communication and aligned expectations for a successful partnership. Don’t miss out on Susie’s expert advice and the latest trends shaping the literary landscape.
https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener-affiliate.html?fpr=craftchat
🎙️ Craft Chat Chronicles with J.D. Myall
Candid conversations on writing, publishing, and creative life — featuring bestselling authors, MFA students, and writers at every stage of the journey.
About J.D. Myall
J.D. Myall is the co-chair of Drexel University’s MFA Alumni Association and a publishing and library professional. She is the creator and host of Craft Chat Chronicles, where she interviews authors, agents, and industry insiders about the art and business of writing.
Her work has appeared in Ms. Magazine, Writer’s Digest, and HuffPost. Her debut novel, Heart’s Gambit, releases with Wednesday Books/Macmillan in February 2026.
When she’s not conjuring magic, murder, and mayhem on the page, J.D. mentors emerging writers through workshops and alumni programs, fostering community among aspiring and published authors alike.
💜 Connect with J.D. Myall
📸 Instagram
🌐 Website & Media Kit
💌 Newsletter
🔗 Linktree
Watch episodes on YouTube as well.
💜 Level up your writing process with Scrivener ...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
(00:26):
writing journey.
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmyallcom.
That's jdmyallcom.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
In season two, episode 11 of Craft Chat
Chronicles, we're going to talkto Susie Townsend.
Susie Townsend has been at thetop of the literary agent
landscape for 15 years.
She's sold books that havebecome movies and TV shows.
She's negotiated deals for sixfigures and up and she's going
(01:05):
to tell you about her journeyinto the world of publishing.
She's going to give advice onwriting and craft and she's
going to tell you about thestate of the publishing market
and what's hot and what she seesselling now.
So, without further ado, thisis Season 2, episode 11 of Craft
Chat Chronicles.
Let's get chatty.
(01:26):
We're recording, so if you'reshy you can turn your camera off
.
Okay, welcome everybody.
I guess we'll go ahead and getstarted.
For tonight's Craft Chat we haveSusie Townsend.
Susie is a highly respectedliterary agent and vice
president at New Leaf Literaryand Media.
(01:47):
She is very talented atspotting unique voices and she
represents some bestsellingauthors like Cassandra Clare,
who's given us Shadowhunters andthe Mortal Instruments series,
and today she's going to talkabout her journey as an agent.
And today she's going to talkabout her journey as an agent.
She's going to talk about thepublishing industry and she's
(02:12):
going to give you guys somevaluable craft and writing tips.
So welcome again.
Welcome Susie.
Yes, no, thank you.
First of all, I want to thankyou deeply, since we just
announced the book.
So thank you, thank you, thankyou, yes.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
No, of course, Congratulations.
I feel like obviously nothing Idid would have been possible
without you writing the greatbook.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
So thank you.
Can you tell us how you becamean agent?
Tell us a little bit about yourjourney?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yeah sure, so I I always tell people that I fell
into agenting.
Sure, so I always tell peoplethat I fell into agenting.
It wasn't really a job that Iknew anything about.
I graduated college with anEnglish degree and was like, oh,
what do I do now?
And I actually went intoteaching.
(02:59):
I taught high school Englishfor six years and I really
enjoyed it.
But I definitely had moments,you know, during faculty
meetings, when we were arguingover like whether we should have
a water cooler, where I thoughtthis is really what I want to
do the rest of my life.
And and I used to always tellmy students I taught.
(03:22):
I had a lot of juniors and so Iused to always talk to them
about how like, find what do youlove to do, find something that
will pay you to do that, andlike that then will help you
pick your career path, andthings like that student one
(03:45):
time who was like is what?
you love to do, really interactwith teenagers and at that
moment I was thinking, no, no,it's not um.
And I kind of thought to myself, like I just love to read, like
who would pay me to read?
Um.
And around that same time mysister she's a couple years
younger than me and she hadgotten a job in textbook
publishing and she was workingin curriculum, um, in like the
(04:08):
social studies sort of likecurriculum, putting together
textbooks, and she kept tellingme about it and I was thinking
like, oh, that's so cool, likehow, like I like curriculum,
like I would like that and um,and so it's sort of like a
combination of arrogance andnaivety made me decide I'm just
(04:29):
going to move to New York Cityand get into publishing.
And I was in California at thetime, so I packed up all of my
belongings and my animals anddrove across the country and got
to New York.
And drove across the countryand got to New York and I
thought that I had like saved upenough money to basically like
(04:50):
give me maybe like a year of acushion to be like, oh, I can
figure out what I want to do andfind the right job, and if I
don't, then I can always teachin New York, and it definitely
was like three months, like Ihad not saved enough for a year,
but I was lucky because I foundI found an internship, um, and
(05:12):
it was for a literary agency andI didn't know what that was, um
, but I went in for an interviewand I wore my pantsuit and I
read like five books on theirwebsite and was like ready to
answer all the questions.
And I got there for theinterview and the girl who
interviewed me was wearing aband t-shirt and jeans and she
(05:33):
asked me like four questions.
Um, she asked me what I likedto read and if I could read
things that needed work and anddo edit.
And I was like, oh, I was ahigh school English teacher, I
can read anything, and um, andthen she's kind of like, okay,
(05:53):
when can you start?
And I was like tomorrow, um,and within like the first few
days, I was like, oh, my gosh,like screw textbooks.
Like this is what I want to do,like I could, just, this is a
job.
Like I can read fiction.
Um, what I did as an intern wasI would read the queries that
came in, um, and if I liked thesound of them, I would go to the
(06:19):
agent and be like I want torequest this and here's what I
like about this query.
And sometimes they would say tome like, oh, I don't know that
I want another mystery novelright now.
Like I have a lot of those.
And in that case, if they weregoing to say no, then I would
find basically someone else inthe office, like another agent,
(06:42):
and be like, hey, this agent gotthis query and doesn't want to
see it, but I really think itsounds good.
Like could I request it?
Like would you look at it ifit's good?
Um, and when the manuscriptscame in that I requested, I
would read them and write upnotes.
Uh, like we called it areader's report, but I would
write up, like you know, asynopsis of what happened and
(07:04):
then also like what I felt werethe strengths and weaknesses of
the manuscript.
And I loved it.
I was like this is amazing.
I can't believe I get to dothis.
And my internship was only liketwo days a week, but I kept
finding excuses to come in everyday and read more and like do
things and help out every dayand read more and like do things
(07:29):
and help out.
And the head of the company atone point was like you're here
every day.
And I was like, oh no, I'mgoing to get in trouble.
And he was like I feel like weshould pay you.
And I was like, oh OK, great,you know, maybe like more money.
And so he hired me as anassistant.
It's not exactly a well-payingjob but it was great.
And when he had said to me atone point like, oh well, you
(07:49):
know, do you want to become anagent?
And at the time I really had noidea what agents did.
It just seemed like a lot oflike phone calls, but I really
liked reading the manuscriptsand like finding clients.
So I was like baby.
And he was like, well, you know, like in a couple of years,
(08:10):
after you've assisted for awhile, like if you do a good job
, then like we can talk aboutmaybe you signing your first
couple of clients.
I was like, okay, great, um.
And then a month later, later,he got a query, uh, for a YA
(08:32):
paranormal romance.
And this was in, uh, 2008, oractually might have been like
late 2007, but it was like justpost twilight, in that sort of
like era of publishing where,like YA was really expanding as
a category, um, and paranormal.
Ya was like what everyone waslooking for.
And my boss, I was like I foundthis query.
I it looks really great.
(08:54):
I had requested it.
Uh, I read the manuscript.
I loved it.
It was a paranormal romance, itwas a love triangle, you know,
a normal human girl and then anangel and a demon.
And I was like it's so funny,it's so good, the voice is so
great, like you should sign this.
And he was like oh no, I don't,I don't really do YA.
(09:17):
And I was like but this willsell.
I like I know this will sell.
I know teenagers I had to workwith them for years this will
sell.
Um, and he was like, no, it'sokay.
And I like asked everyone elsein the office and I kept talking
about the book and then theauthor got an offer of
representation from anotheragent and so I told my boss
(09:39):
again.
I was like here are all thereasons you should sign this.
I know exactly where you shouldsend it, I know exactly what
you should do.
And he said to me well, if youlove this so much, if you want
to offer representation, you can.
You can be the agent.
And I was like okay, now thatI've done this for many years, I
(10:02):
look back at that and think heprobably didn't think she'd sign
with me because I was a baby, Iwas brand new, and I don't
think he thought that she wouldsign with me because she had
another offer.
But she and I talked and we hada great call and she did sign
with me and I went on submissionwith the project.
(10:23):
I did some editing, we went onsubmission and then I had three
editors who offered and so wesold the book at an auction and
then my boss was like, oh wow,like you did know what you were
talking about.
And so he was like, if you wantto take on a couple of clients,
we can, we can make that work.
(10:46):
Um, I also look back at thattime and think like there was so
much I didn't know and therewas a lot of like you know,
pausing to be like wait, howshould I handle this?
But I was very fortunate that Ihad some good agents at the
agency who are great mentors andlike helped me along the way.
(11:07):
But that was sort of like how Ibecame an agent, Um, and now
it's 15 years later, ish, um,and I have about like 30, I
think it's 31 active clientsthat I work with Um and there
was a time that I tracked likehow many books I had sold Um and
(11:29):
I've since lost track.
But I feel like that's a goodproblem.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
It is great problem to have.
So what does a day in your lifelook like now?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Um.
So now there's always a lot ofemails, um, I get probably about
200 emails a day, um.
And then some of them are onesthat I am just like a a fly on
the wall for it's.
You know, my authors aretalking to their editors or
their publicists or differentthings like that.
Um, I have to read everythingbecause something might come up
(12:01):
that I need to weigh in on, butit doesn't always require a
response.
And then other emails areemails that I definitely have to
respond to, if someone is likeoh my gosh, I hate my cover.
Or if an author is thinkinglike well, I really want to do
(12:24):
this anthology that I got anopportunity for, but will it fit
into my schedule?
So I definitely answer a lot ofemails.
I also, at this point in mycareer, I have a lot of meetings
and phone calls, and sometimesthose are meetings where I'm
meeting with an editor and we'recatching up whether we're
(12:46):
getting together in person orwe're getting together on the
phone.
But I'll be asking them whatbooks do they have coming out
soon that they're excited about,what holes are on their list,
what things are they looking for?
Um, or I might be meeting withauthors to talk them through,
like if they don't like theiredits or if they're struggling
(13:09):
to to, you know, finishsomething on time.
Uh, we might also be meeting totalk about strategy.
Um, I also have a lot of callsand meetings about, uh like,
marketing and publicity plansfor books that are coming out.
As an agent, I always say, likeit's, you know, you start
(13:32):
working on a project beforebefore the book deal, you know,
and you might edit it, get itready, and then you know the
next step on it is like youmight step back a little bit as
the author works with theireditor, but at the same time,
you're always there to sort oftroubleshoot any problem and to
also like, especially with afirst time author, prepare them
(13:52):
for, like, what are the nextsteps?
So you know, when it's time tostart thinking about a cover, a
lot of times the publisher willsay like, oh, we're getting
ready to do the cover, do youhave any ideas?
So we'll talk about, like, whattheir cover brief should look
like and what things will behelpful to tell the publisher so
(14:17):
that you get a cover that youlike and not one that you don't.
Ideally, ideally.
But if you do get one that youdon't like, then I'm the person
to go to the publisher and belike we don't like this.
Here are the changes we want.
Um, and I always say that myauthors what I want them to be
able to do is just focus ontheir writing, um, and then be
(14:37):
in all their interactions withthe publisher, be the person
who's like, oh, I'm so excitedto work with you, like, this
sounds fun.
And then I'll be the bad guy IfI'm like, no, that's too much
work, we're not going to do that.
Or like, no, we don't like thiscover.
Or like we can't do this editbecause it's wrong or whatever
(14:58):
it is.
I'm that person, so that theauthor doesn't have to be that
person.
Um, and then you know, as, as abook finishes going through the
editorial process and it goesinto copy edits, um, then I'm
also starting to have theconversation with the author
about, like, what they'rewriting next.
Like are they writing a sequelthat's part of that book deal
(15:20):
that we did, or are they writingsomething new that would be a
follow-up to that book?
And then, at the same time,we're also pausing to talk about
the book, the upcomingpublication, and like what the
marketing publicity plans looklike, while the publisher is
doing their thing, which theauthor be doing for promotion.
(15:43):
So, as a result, I feel like myday, any any given day, could
look so different in terms ofwhat I'm talking about.
Um, because, also because I'mgoing through those steps with
30 different authors, uh, someof whom write romance, and so
(16:03):
they write about three books ayear, and then some of whom you
know, write more literaryfiction, and so they might write
a book every three years, orsomething like that.
So so, where they are in theprocess, every day is so
different.
So, as a result, my day isalways so different, and
(16:23):
sometimes that means a problemcomes up that I'm like oh, we
haven't, I haven't dealt withthis before.
During the pandemic, one of myauthors we had to move her pub
date back because her books wereprinted in China and they were
sent on a ship across the oceanand somehow some of the books
(16:48):
fell off the ship into the oceanand so there were not books to
get to the stores, and so we hadto move her pub date, and so,
like we had to have a call aboutthat and figure, like, how are
we going to message this to fansthat actually their book is
going to be delayed, and youknow, what do we do about the
book tour that was planned andthings like that?
(17:09):
So, sometimes, like weirdthings come up that you're like,
oh, okay, well, let's figurethat out.
So that I feel like that is, myjob is to plan as much as we
can for the worst possible casescenario and how to protect the
author against that worst casescenario.
Um, and then, when the stuffthat we didn't necessarily see
(17:32):
coming comes up, to also figureout like, okay, how do we fix
this?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
love that.
What is your slush file lookinglike these days?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
So I get a lot of.
I get a lot of YA and Idefinitely I also get a lot of
fantasy and I would say thatright now I'm seeing a lot of
romanticy, which is definitely abuzzword, but I would say that
it varies.
You know, sometimes it is theromanticity that feels a little
(18:06):
bit like the romance is the Aplot and then sometimes the
romance, or sometimes like theromance is the B plot and
actually like it's the fantasyworld and the world pulling and
like whatever politics are goingon there, it's the A plot.
So that could be a pretty broadrange.
I'm seeing a lot of that.
I also am seeing it sort ofinteresting like almost like a
(18:31):
horror romance mashup of genresright now and I think that's
kind of interesting.
It's like almost like sort oftaking like what's working in
romanticity and like taking it astep further.
So and I did hear I have notseen this in my first file, but
I heard from an editor thatshe's seeing a lot of dystopian
(18:52):
romance, which she called distoromance, but I don't know that
that moniker is going to take-off.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
What would you like to see?
What are the things that you'rehoping to receive?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Oh you know, I always say that I will follow a
character I love anywhere, andso and I, I guess, like, what
makes a query stand out the mostto me is actually like the, the
(19:24):
voice in the query, and I knowthat's really hard, like it's
really hard to get voice intoyour query because it's very
short, um, but um, but that'susually what makes me be like I
want to read this, um, and so Idon't necessarily.
I mean, I, I'm a 16 year oldgirl at heart, I love romance, I
(19:47):
love magic.
So, like, if you know anythingabout my authors, you would know
, like you could tell, like Ilove my fantasy romance that you
know have slight speculativeelements that are, um, you know,
(20:07):
family relationships orrom-coms, like I love.
I was that kid that loved toread anything, um, and I still
am.
So I, I love characters who are,um, really passionate, are, um,
(20:29):
really passionate, who meanwell but are flawed and, you
know, make those decisions that,like, as a reader, you might be
like, oh, I see why you didthat, but that's gonna make
everything so much worse.
Um, I, I never would have saidthat I liked unlikable
characters, but I sold a bookearly on in my career and, um,
we had several rejections fromeditors that were like, oh, I
(20:50):
don't like unlikable characters,and I was like, what are you
talking about?
I love her.
And I realized, oh, oh, I do.
I, as long as people like youknow if they have redeeming
qualities and you kind ofunderstand why they're going
down the path they're going down.
If they're interesting, Ireally like them.
(21:11):
So that's my non-answer to thatquestion.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Do you have any advice for people who might want
to become literary agents?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
who might want to become literary agents.
I mean, I think the best, thebest advice I can give you is to
read a lot of the books thatare on the bestseller list I
apologize, my phone is makingnoise Read books that are on the
bestseller list, that are onthe times list.
I, when I first started, I hadasked someone in someone in
(21:45):
publishing, like you know, I waslike I don't, I have just an
English degree.
Like, should I like?
Should I take classes inpublishing?
Should I do something?
And he was like, no, you know,the best education really is
like what is selling well, likewhat's working well and um, and
(22:05):
to read as much as you can, umand so for me, one of the things
that that I think really helpedis, like, you know, I read
things that that hit the bestseller list, that people were
all talking about.
Um, you know, I mean I rememberreading 50 shades of gray and it
.
It was not my favorite read,but it was like, like I always
(22:26):
approach books that like maybe Ididn't love but that were
selling really well, with theidea of like, what is it?
What is it that that theaverage consumer is reading and
loving about this?
Like, what do they like aboutit and what is kind of pulling
them in, what's making them goon to like the next book, and I
(22:50):
think that I think that'sprobably a very similar quality
that's helpful to you, whetheryou're an agent or a writer,
because sometimes, like you canlook at a book and be like it's
not my favorite, but the way theauthor you know, the way they
end each one of their chapters,or something really makes you
(23:10):
want to kind of like keepturning the page or something
like that.
Like you can usually find areason of like why other people
might be loving it even if it'snot your favorite.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Love that.
What genres do you think areselling really well right now?
Speaker 3 (23:31):
So fantasy romance is selling really well right now.
I think that it's a.
It's one of those genres thathas a little bit of something
for everyone.
Genres that has a little bit ofsomething for everyone.
Rom-coms are still doing verywell.
I think that there's a littlebit of element of escapism right
(23:53):
now, and I would say that we'veseen this since the pandemic.
Going into the pandemicbeforehand, I remember people
being like oh yeah, I have a lotof fantasy on my list, I don't
know that I'm acquiring muchmore.
And then the pandemic hit andsuddenly it felt like everyone
being like oh yeah, I have a lotof fantasy on my list, I don't
know that I'm acquiring muchmore.
And then the pandemic hit andsuddenly it felt like everyone's
(24:13):
like no, no, I do want fantasybecause I want to get away from
real life, and I think that'sstill that's still the case.
I think that horror has hasreally been doing well also, and
(24:36):
I think that that it's almostlike an element of like you read
something and you're like oh,my life's not that bad.
Um and um, and then I thinkthat it's hard to do a book
that's funny and so humor.
Um always does really well Ifyou can actually make people
like laugh out loud, then thatalways does well.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
What do your agent author relationships with your
client look like?
Do they pitch you novel ideasor do they send you proposals,
or do they send you whole novels?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
So it's sometimes it depends on them.
I have an I have one author whoum it.
She always says that if shestarts trying to talk about a
book before she writes it,before she writes a draft, that
she won't be able to actuallyfinish the draft, that she has
to just sit down and write.
If she tries to talk about theplot, like it just it's dead.
(26:50):
So so she'll just email me andbe like I wrote a thing here.
It is Um, and I I've hadauthors before who will write
something um, and send it to meand be like I started this
project as a YA novel or as anadult novel, but now I wrote it
and I don't know what it is Um,and I always say like that's
(27:13):
fine, I will, I'll read it andI'll tell you like where it will
go.
Um, but um.
And then on the other end of thespectrum I have I have some
authors who will have like aspreadsheet of ideas and when
it's time to think about a newbook, they'll send me their
spreadsheet and kind of be likewhat, which one do you think I
(27:34):
should write?
Like, what do you think is themost commercial?
Um, and we'll potentially liketalk about several ideas and and
then pick one, um and, and thenI have some other authors who
fall in the middle where it'slike they'll work on something a
little bit and maybe send melike a snippet or send me kind
of like a pitch or like a firstchapter and ask for my thoughts
(27:58):
and then sort of like, and thendive in full speed ahead.
So I think for me as an agent,like every author works
differently and so I have to bea little bit adaptable to the
process, because I can'tactually do anything right, like
my job doesn't exist if I don'tget a manuscript, if I don't
(28:21):
get the book.
So whatever's really whatever'sgoing to help the author get
that book written best.
That's what I'm here for.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Awesome.
I'm going to move into somecraft questions.
What are the essential elementsof a good YA novel?
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Oh man, I mean.
So I think one of the things isthat you know, as a teenager,
like everything can feel so lifeor death can feel so life or
(29:02):
death, um, and so the in a YAnovel, that sense of like,
urgency I think is so important.
Um, and obviously, like, ifyou're, you know, writing a
dystopian novel, like a hungergames, where you know kids are
killing kids and are you goingto survive, like that's clearly
very life or death.
But I think that, um, you know,if, in a situation where, like
(29:24):
you know, even a book, a bookwhere the plot is just like, um,
about a girl whose mom is sick,that's still life or death,
that's a life or death situationto that character.
And so I think that you canstill infuse a sense of urgency
into almost any situation in aYA novel.
(29:47):
But I think the best, I feellike the best way to do that, or
like the thing that you reallyneed, is to ensure that there's
so much emotional resonance, um,between the reader and the
character.
Um, and the.
I always, probably everyone Iwork with, uh, who is a writer,
(30:08):
gets annoyed with me, becauseone of the questions that I'm
always asking in edits is likebut what are they thinking right
now?
How are they feeling?
How did they react to thisdialogue that this other person
said?
And I think that, particularlyin YA, like closing the
narrative distance and likereally getting into that the
(30:30):
character's head helps reallybuild emotion and create that
resonance with the reader.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
What do you look for in the opening pages of a
manuscript?
What do you like to see on thefirst page?
Speaker 3 (30:45):
So, early on in my career, I went to a writing
conference and someone had askedoh, I was on a panel with a
bunch of agents and someone inthe audience asked, like when?
Like how much do you read whenyou get a query, like in the
pages, like how far in do youread?
(31:05):
And there was an agent who hadbeen in the business a long time
, he had a lot of bestsellersand he said I read the first
line.
If I like it, I read the firstline.
If I like it, I read the secondline.
If I still like it, I read thethird line.
And he was saying, like youknow, as soon as I'm not hooked
and I can put it down and walkaway, like that's when I stop.
(31:29):
And at the time, you know,everyone thought that that was a
very harsh answer, but I doactually think that it's really
true in that, like, if you thinkabout it, like when I go to
look at my queries, I usuallyhave, you know, probably it does
(31:49):
amount to probably like between150 and like 200 queries a week
, um, and I often am sittingdown to do them like once every
couple of weeks.
So they've piled up, um, and mygoal is to go through them and
like read all, read them all, uh, uh, in one sitting and say yes
(32:11):
or no very quickly.
Um, and so, in terms of, interms of like the, the writing
and the voice and and thecharacter and everything like
that, I feel like you reallyneed the character and the voice
of the manuscript to sort oflike pop off the page right from
(32:34):
the get, go um and and it againit.
You know, sometimes that'sreally easy if you have a really
high stakes plot to, like youknow, start in the middle of the
action with somethingsurprising and sort of catch
someone's interest.
Um, but there are like so manybeautiful books out there where,
like, it's just the character,the character's voice, talking
(32:59):
about something that'sinteresting or important to them
.
That really kind of like opensthe manuscript and makes you
feel like, oh, I want to, I wantto get to know this person,
like I, I want to know, like,where they're going love that.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
What's the biggest mistake that you're seeing in
your slash pal currently?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
um.
So you know I always say, like,in terms of my queries, that
like sometimes I get querieswhere, like you know, someone
spelled my name wrong, which isjust like you got one chance to
make an impression, like youwant to make sure you proofread,
um, or like sometimes I'll getthings where, like someone you
(33:45):
know clearly doesn't they're nottelling me what their book is
about, which is like the numberone thing I want from a query.
But I would actually say thatfor the most part, I don't
really see that many likequeries where you're like, oh,
(34:07):
this was a big mistake.
Thing that makes me pass on aquery is that it feels a little
forgettable or it feels too muchlike something I've seen before
, like it just doesn't feel likeI'll remember it tomorrow.
And and I this is why I kind ofthink for me at least, it's come
(34:30):
down to like the voice of thequery, because you know there
are, you know you mentionedCassandra Clare.
There's a lot of plots thatmight be similar to some of her
plots out there, but I thinkthat it's it's the voice that
tends to tends to stand out andtends to make people then like
(34:51):
talk about the, about thecharacters, like fandoms.
They always respond tocharacters more than they
respond to like the world or theactual plot, like they like
those things and they thinkthey're cool.
But you always see fandomsarguing over like love interests
and things like that, and youknow, being on a certain team or
(35:16):
whatever, writing fan fictionabout characters.
They wanted to be together andand so I, I really think it kind
of comes down to that Love that, love that.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
And any advice on creating compelling characters.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
What are the kinds of characters that you love?
So I think that probably thebig thing, the big advice I
guess that I have on compellingcharacters, is that you want to
know them so well, like you wantto know them inside and out,
you want to know theirpersonality, them so well, like
you want to know them inside andout.
You want to know theirpersonality, you know you don't
have to necessarily know theirlike astrological sign or like
things like that, but like allof their personality traits,
(36:04):
like you want to know thatinside out, you want to know
their motivations, you want toknow, like what they would do in
certain situations.
Because the more you know thecharacter is sort of off page
then the easier it is to getthat on the page.
And at the same time, I wouldsay that the biggest advice that
I give authors in terms oftheir characters is when you're,
(36:26):
particularly when you'reediting like once you have a
full draft and you're rereadingand looking at everything, like
I would definitely make surethat when you're editing like
once you have a full draft, um,and you're rereading and looking
at everything, like I woulddefinitely make sure that when
you're, when you're talkingabout your character's emotions
or you're, you know, trying toconvey their motivations or
their reactions to things.
I would say that, like youprobably want to like flesh it
(36:51):
out like one step further thanyou think you need to, because
once you know a character well,um, it's easy to feel like
you've like conveyed theirthoughts and feelings and and
everything on the page andsometimes, you know, to the
reader who's just meeting themfor the first time.
Sometimes we need more.
(37:13):
So I I often give that note Interms of, like, what makes a
character compelling to me.
I mean a little bit along thelines of what I said earlier
about how, like I really Ireally like characters who make
mistakes, who mean well, butmake mistakes.
Because you know, particularlyin YA, through thinking of YA
(37:34):
novels, because you know, all ofus, as teenagers made some, I'm
sure, some pretty embarrassingmistakes and and I think that
you know, no matter what's goingon in a character's life, like
if they're taking action, um, totry to solve something, to try
to get around an obstacle to getwhat they want or what they
(37:56):
need, or whatever it is, um, youknow they're not going to, they
can't do it perfectly,otherwise there's no story Right
, so, um, so I love charactersthat, like you know, they have
good intentions, they think theythink they're doing the right
thing, but perhaps they're not,uh, and they're making mistakes.
(38:19):
And then, you know, the stakeskeep building from that love
that.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Any advice on keeping the tension going throughout
the novel and avoiding the saggymiddle.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Yeah.
So I would say that you know,sometimes this is I think pacing
is something that you oftenkind of address a little bit
more, like after you've writtenyour first draft and like once
you're going through it.
But I would always say, likefor any scene, you want to get
into the scene late and you wantto get out early.
So every scene should in someway help develop your character,
move along the plot andpotentially, you know, give the
(39:03):
reader some insight either intothe world or the backstory or
something like that.
And I always feel like you know, if you, when you're watching a
TV show and characters calleach other on the phone, they
never say goodbye, they justhang up on each other.
And it's something that I feellike as the audience when we're
(39:25):
watching, we don't even reallythink about it, because you see
them, they hang up like thephone call's done good.
But it's because that, eventhough that's really unrealistic
like I can't think of the lasttime I just hugged up on someone
at the end of a conversationit's almost like the goodbyes
can be implied, they don't needto be written out, and I think
(39:47):
it's kind of like a good analogyfor getting out of a scene
early or getting in late, isthat you know you don't need
your hellos and goodbyes, youjust need to get into the scene.
Um, and then I also think thatsometimes, um, you might, as
(40:07):
you're looking at a scene, ifyou're thinking like, oh, this
scene doesn't really move theplot forward.
It does tell me some thingsabout this character, but it's
not moving the plot forward.
That might mean that you wantto take those character details
that are learned in that sceneand you might want to add them
(40:29):
somehow in a different scene,like the scene right before it
or the scene right after it.
Sometimes you have to writecertain scenes in order for you,
the writer, to know them andthen later you can go back and
look at them and think like, oh,like I don't actually need this
.
The reader doesn't need to seethis happen.
They can find this informationout a different way.
(40:52):
So I think that's something toalways keep in mind.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
And how would you suggest they tie it up Like what
do you like to see in an ending?
How do you suggest that youmake their ending satisfying to
readers?
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Well, so I actually I always tell people that, like I
never would have done for MacMcCarthy's the Road, because
it's like so bleak.
I don't need like an endingthat wraps everything up in a
tight bow, but I usually, like Iwant enough closure.
So, like you know, if you thinkabout a plot, like any plot
(41:28):
boiled down to its like mostsimplest form, is that you have
a character who wants something.
There's an obstacle in theirway and they take action to try
to get it and things go awryfrom there.
Um, and you know, in the end ofthe book they might not get
what they want.
Sometimes they do, um, but they, if they don't get what they
(41:52):
want, they usually get what theyneed instead.
Um, and so I think that, likeyou want some sense of closure
in that respect.
Um, and it doesn't have to behappy, it doesn't have to be all
wrapped up, um, I personallylike a hopeful ending, but
plenty of other people liketheir bleak, sad or like
(42:16):
terrifying ending.
So, so, if you're, if you havean ending like that, it's okay.
It's just probably not for me.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Love that, love that.
So you read the manuscript, youadore the manuscript, you're
ready to make the call.
Um, what are you looking for inthe call and what should we be
looking for when we talk toagents?
Speaker 3 (42:37):
Yeah.
So for me, what I'm looking foris I, your agent, author
relationship is a long termpartnership.
It's a long distancerelationship, right?
Because we're not.
We don't see each other thatoften, probably, and so I always
want someone who is a reallygood communicator.
(42:59):
I, I really want to know, like,what are, what are their hopes
and dreams?
Like, what are their pie in thesky goals, what's their vision,
not just for this book, but fortheir career as a whole, and
you want to be able to balancethat a little bit with like,
with like the big goals, butalso like the dose of realism,
(43:22):
of kind of like.
You know.
You know, I had an author whosaid to me one time she was like
I want to hit the bestsellerlist, maybe not with this first
book, but someday, like that'smy goal.
Like I want to hit the New YorkTimes list.
I want to be able to say that Iwas a bestseller.
And I was like, yeah, great, andI, you know I had another
author who was like you know I,she was like I someday, like my,
(43:45):
my pie in the sky goal would beto, um, you know, get the film
rights options and be able towrite either the screenplay or
the uh, like the TV pilot.
And she always says, like itdoesn't have to.
I don't want final cuts, butlike I'd love to be able to do
(44:08):
like a first draft and, and Ithink for you, what is probably
like the things that you want tothink about in terms of an
agent is one I mean, do you feelcomfortable opening up to them
and talking about, like yourvision for the book and your
career and things like that?
(44:29):
Um, do they seem receptive tothe ideas?
Do they seem to have a similarvision for this book and like
for your career?
And I think like a good way toask that question is to think
about, like what you can ask theagent like, what are the comp
titles that you see for thisbook?
(44:51):
Um, because if you'reenvisioning your story as you
know, something that sits on ashelf next to like Emily Henry
or like Allie Hazelwood, and theagent is like, oh, the comp
(45:11):
titles are, you know, and they,they give you something that's
like much more obscure.
Then you kind of know, like,okay, we might not have the same
vision for this, and then Ialso think it's it's probably
really important for you to alsotalk about, like you know, what
other kinds of books do youwant to write?
Like, are you someone who, likeis like I just want to write YA,
(45:38):
I always want to write YA, I'mnot ever going to want to do
anything else, that's totallyfine.
But if you're also like no, I Iwrote this YA book and I'm
excited about it, but I alsosomeday, like want to write
adult books and I have this oneweird middle grade idea and like
, maybe I want to write apicture book.
Like, those are all things thatyou want to be able to talk to
that agent about and like makesure that if you guys worked
(46:00):
together, if you wrote something, um, that's not the same as
what they're signing you for, um, you know, are they still going
to want to work on it?
If they read something and it'snot their favorite, what do
they do?
Like, are they going to giveyou notes and help you get it
(46:21):
there so that it's ready to sell?
Are they going to know editorsin different spaces to help get
it to?
I often tell clients orprospective clients like I I've
done a little bit of nonfiction,I've done a little bit of
picture books, I've done acouple of graphic novels Um,
they're not my forte, but I knowthe right editors to get the
(46:43):
books too, and that's kind ofwhat matters.
Um, I've never done a businessbook.
You would not want me to sellyour business book, but there
are people on my team so if Isign someone for a YA fantasy
(47:05):
and later they wrote a businessbook, we have someone who can
help them sell it.
It just wouldn't be me, becauseI would not know anything about
who to go to for that Love thatLove that we have some
questions in the chat.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yes, yes okay.
One person says your manuscriptlist says you like upmarket
fiction, upmarket book clubfiction.
What does that mean and whatdoes that look like to you?
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Yeah, sure, so um, so market um means basically kind
of like not quite literaryfiction, but like less James
Patterson, I'd like more um.
Oh gosh, now I'm blanking butlike, just like a little bit
more elevated, like the kind ofthe kind of books that you would
(47:52):
read in a book club and talkabout, or the kind of books that
would have the like thediscussion questions in the back
, where you're talking about notjust plot but also like theme
and intention and like you knowwhat do we think the writer was
thinking when they did thisno-transcript?
(48:23):
I want things with a little bitmore heart and a little bit of
philosophy and not just like, oh, it's all action, um, but um.
But I think that you know areally good way to think of like
.
What are some examples of likebook club fiction is actually,
(48:44):
if you looked at like ReeseWitherspoon, hello Sunshine
Company she does those uh, likeReese Witherspoon book club
picks.
Or there's that company Book ofthe Month that chooses they
usually choose, I think it'slike five books and their
subscribers will like get oneeach month.
(49:06):
And those are, I would say, likereally good industry examples
of what book club fiction means.
It's often um, it doesn'tnecessarily have to be um, any
specific genre, like sometimesyou get things that are that
feel very like general fictionor like a family saga or um,
(49:27):
sometimes you'll find somethingthat is like a very light,
accessible, like fantasy, orfeels a bit like a fairy tale.
And then other times you getbooks that have they might not
be like a mystery, like mightnot be that someone died on page
one, but there might be amystery element to the plot.
(49:48):
That's kind of like pulling thereader along the plot.
That's kind of like pulling thereader along, but but usually
they all, they all have thatsort of like you know the things
that you could really talkabout and kind of dissect at the
end, like ask questions about.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Ashley wants to know.
Ashley said you're interestedin psychological suspense.
Would you mind sharing whatyou're looking for in that genre
?
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Yeah, of course I mean.
So I I think that you know Iread obviously like Gone Girl
and Girl on the Train and andthings like that, but one of my
favorite books in that sort ofpsychological suspense genre was
Ba paris wrote behind closeddoors, um, and I actually
(50:36):
listened to that as an audiobookand I think the entire last
hour of the book I I sat in acoffee shop just like because I
just couldn't believe what wasunfolding, um, and so.
So the number one thing I'mlooking for is that kind of like
that shock value where, like,the twists and the turns are you
(50:56):
know things that like I won'tsee coming.
But in terms of, in terms ofconcept, I actually think that,
like some of those psychologicalthrillers that have worked so
well, they work so well becausethey all sort of like ask the
same question about, like, howwell do you really know your
husband?
Or like, how well do you reallyknow this person that you
(51:20):
thought you knew so well, um,and I think that's a really
compelling question.
Now.
There's kind of been a lot ofthat.
So I think you have to thinkabout it as like, how do you
either do that in a differentway, or how do you ask this?
How does your book ask asimilar but different question
that a lot of people are goingto resonate with, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Does anybody else have any questions?
Don't raise your hand, becauseI can't see you all just ask.
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Yes, feel free to jump.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
I want to ask something.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
So how much does the market play in your decision to
sign an author Like, forinstance, if you really love a
book that you know might notsell well, versus a book that
you only like but know will sell.
Speaker 4 (52:16):
Well, like which one do you sign or do you sign the
book?
Speaker 3 (52:21):
Oh, that's such a good question.
I actually think it's probablyit's been different depending on
where I was in my career, the,you know, when I was starting
out for any book that I lovedbut wasn't sure would sell
because it was, you know, notthe right time for the book, or
(52:43):
something like that.
For every one of those that Itook on, I probably needed to
take on like three books that Iknew I know I can sell this,
like this will totally sell.
Um, because you know, I wasalso working in a place of like
I have to make enough, I have tosell enough to make enough
commission in order to to eatand and stuff.
(53:06):
But, um, but now, at this pointin my career, if I read
something and I love it topieces, it really doesn't matter
to me if.
If I don't know if it's goingto sell, if I don't know if it's
going to sell, because I'm in aplace where I can be like I
(53:27):
love this book, I will tryreally hard to sell it.
If I don't sell it, usually I'mthinking like I love this
author's writing, I love theirvoice, I have talked to them, I
really connect with them and Ithink that they'll write
something that I love, that Ican sell, like well, if we don't
(53:54):
sell this first one, we'lldefinitely sell something down
the line.
And you know, I, I also, I feellike for me I have a lot of
clients.
I have a full list.
I don't actually have that muchtime.
I don't sign that many clientsa year.
I've signed one so far thisyear and I didn't sign any last
(54:15):
year, and part of that islooking at how much time I have
to give to, you know, help themget to where they want to go.
And I I get a lot of queries nowin my career from authors who
are already published, who havebooks, you know, and and
(54:38):
oftentimes for me, like, even ifit's an author that I'm like,
oh, like they have anestablished editor, like this is
an easy sell.
I know exactly what to do withthis.
If it's probably like, like the, the work and the different
things that we have to do to gointo it, like I might not have
(54:58):
the right kind of time for them,for them, and I actually am at
a point where I always have tofeel like I have to be willing
to say like I will sleep lessbecause I love this book so much
that I will give up sleep, Iwill give up time with my family
, I will stay home and workinstead of like going on this
(55:21):
trip because I desperately wantto work on this book.
So for me now it's much moreabout like I just love this.
Yeah, thank you.
It's a very that's a very like,very privileged space to be in
now.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
Thank you so much.
Any other questions?
Speaker 4 (55:47):
I have a question.
Can you guys hear me?
Yes, oh, okay, hi, first of all, thank you for doing this,
appreciate it.
Mine is like a functionalquestion.
You're a literary agent.
When you say you're getting alot of queries 150 a week or
whatever, whatever voluminousamount it is are those people
(56:08):
that are already represented onsome level that are coming to
you because you're in the mix,or are these people coming to
you cold with like a firstchapter or two or a treatment?
What are you largely looking atas far?
Speaker 3 (56:22):
as yeah, yeah.
So.
So people who query me, um, youknow I would say that 99% of
the time they they're notrepresented, um, and we have no
connection at all.
You know, sometimes, sometimesthere might be someone who's
like I'm a friend of your author, or this person in the industry
told me to query you, orsomething like that, but most of
(56:45):
the time it's they're reachingout cold, but what they're
reaching out with, you knowtheir query.
I always say, like a queryshould be about about 250 words.
No one's going to count yourwords, but if you've written a
lot more than that, it'sprobably too long.
And if you've written a lotless than that, it's probably
too long.
And if you've written a lotless than that, it's probably
(57:06):
not long enough.
Um, and you basically areanswering the question what is
my book about?
Um, and I always say, like thebest examples are looking at
like your book jacket copy, likethe inside flap of a hardcover
or the back of a paperback.
A lot of times, the query thatan author, a debut author,
(57:27):
writes to me to describe theirbook, I use that query to and
from it like make some, makesome little changes, and use
that as a pitch letter that Isend to editors to be like you
want to read this, and I cannottell you how many times my pitch
letters have ended up as thejacket copy on a book.
So that's kind of like yourbest sort of like model.
(57:51):
If you want examples of whatworks and I always ask for my
queries Like I ask, send me yourquery and your first five pages
of your manuscript, because forme I want to be able to see oh,
do I like this idea?
And then do I like the writing?
Am I grabbed?
Um, and I, when I'm reading, ifI find grabbed like right away,
(58:16):
then I don't even read to theend, I just request it and then
go to the next one.
If I am bored and like not intoit, then I don't read to the
end of the five pages, I just goto the next one.
A lot of times if I'm readingand I get all the way to the end
(58:36):
of the five pages, I kind ofhave to ask myself like what was
it that kept me reading, like Iwas clearly interested myself?
Like what was it that kept mereading, like I was clearly
interested, but I I wasn't, Iwasn't grabbed enough to be like
yes, I have to see more um, andso I kind of have to sort of
determine, like do?
I think that it's a lot of timesif I request, it's because I
(58:58):
think that I think there'ssomething here.
I'm just not sure if the authorhas started the story in the
right place, but that's clearlysomething I can help fix.
So I'm going to go ahead andrequest it and then sometimes,
when I don't, it's like theremight be something here but I'm
not sure enough of where I thinkit might be going.
(59:20):
Or I'm not sure if I walk awayfrom my computer and never get
this manuscript, am I stillgoing to wonder sometimes what
happened to that book?
Because at the end of the day,like it's the books that that
(59:41):
you want to be able to be like.
Oh, I read that like a whileago, but I love it so much that
I keep thinking about it.
Those are the books that youthat are like kind of like
calling is like work on me.
So that's kind of what makes meask that Every agent is a
little bit different.
So a lot of times they'll ask.
(01:00:02):
Sometimes they'll ask for asynopsis, sometimes they'll ask
for 10 pages, sometimes they'llask for no pages.
Everybody wants a query, though.
Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
Got it.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Any more questions?
Speaker 6 (01:00:19):
I have one.
So the common wisdom is, youknow, it only takes one, yes,
yes, and so you should nevergive up.
But is that really true?
Speaker 3 (01:00:34):
You never get like, never give up writing.
Sure.
Sometimes it's okay to give upon a book and that giving up on
a book is like it's like you'reputting it in a drawer because
maybe you'll pull it out againsomeday later and look at it and
maybe not.
(01:00:55):
Um, sometimes it's just not theright time for that book.
Um, you know, I I mentioned howwhen I started in my career,
everybody wanted like aparanormal something, not
vampires, they were dead, butlike something paranormal.
And you know, then very quicklyafter that, nobody wanted
(01:01:15):
paranormal and everybody wanteddystopian, or you know, and the
trends move around.
So sometimes it's just not theright time for a book, but it
could be the right time in fiveyears, like everything is very
cyclical, trends always comeback.
One of the early authors Isigned we didn't sell her first
(01:01:36):
book and it was a contemporarygrounded, it was a YA mystery
and no one really wanted thatback then.
And she wrote a second bookthat was dystopian and that
didn't sell the world buildingdidn't quite work enough.
And then for her third book shewrote another contemporary and
(01:01:56):
that we sold that and that washer first published book.
Those first two books wesubmitted to like 40 people, 40
editors each, um, and we got alot of nice responses to her
writing, but it just wasn't theright thing, um.
But after she published herfirst book, when her editor was
like, what do you want to writenext?
(01:02:17):
She went back to that first oneand was, like you know, I still
love this book.
I've grown a lot as a writer.
I definitely like to like, makesome changes.
But what do you think aboutpitching this book to the editor
?
And I was like, yes, let's doit.
And that was her second book,her second published book.
So so things always come back.
(01:02:39):
I think that if you're, ifyou're writing something and
you're querying and you'regetting a lot of passes, and you
, you know, I guess, if you'regetting a lot of passes, I'd say
first revise your query andrevise your first chapter and
send them out again, becausesometimes it's just, it's just
the query, um.
But if you're not getting goodresponses with it and you're
(01:03:04):
feeling a little stuck, you knowelse, keep learning, keep
practicing your craft.
Like you get better and betteras a writer with every book you
(01:03:30):
do, and probably with every bookyou read too.
So I think you just kind ofhave to keep going.
I do sort of firmly believethat the you know, at the end of
the day, the never give upadvice is really good advice.
It's just don't give up on thedream as a whole.
(01:03:51):
I have an author who she alwaystalks about.
It wasn't her first book thatgot an agent, it was her eighth
book.
And it wasn't the book that shesigned the agent for that got
published, it was the second.
The second book she did withthat agent was the first one
that got published.
And it wasn't her first bookthat hit the New York Times list
(01:04:14):
, it was her seventh book.
And and you know then, like itwasn't, it wasn't her seventh
book that got a big advance, youknow it was her ninth book or
something like that.
So like that, those milestonesa lot of times, like it doesn't
happen right away and everywriter, even writers who are
hugely successful, uh, they allhave a novel in the drawer
(01:04:37):
somewhere that tied into aquestion in the chat, so, um, I
think you can answer.
Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
He was just asking someone was asking when to give
up on a book because they had 40rejections, and that was great.
Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that like, I think if you
still are feeling like I lovethis book, even if you have a
bunch of rejections, then itmight just be like go back and
reread and do some revisions.
And I always tell authors thatfor me and I think for a lot of
agents, like potholes or worldbuilding questions, those are
(01:05:16):
easy notes, right, like thoseare things that I can read
something and be like wait, Idon't understand this world
piece, like, explain it to me,Like let's get that in the
manuscript and that's an easyfix.
The harder fixes and the thingsthat would cause me to reject
something are always more aboutthe character and the voice.
If it's not there, like that'sa hard.
(01:05:36):
That's a hard note for me togive an author and know that
they'll be able to fix it.
Um, or sometimes the pacing ifthe pacing, you know, slows,
slows down or is too fast andthings like that, like that's
also a hard note for me to giveand have confidence Like I know
the author will be able to fixthis.
So I think those are probablythe two most important things to
(01:05:59):
look at and try to try torevise and then query again, and
I actually always say, if I gotyour query again because I get
so many if I didn't request it,you can always query me again,
as long as you rework your query, because I won't remember that
(01:06:21):
I got it before.
So you can always go back toagents that you went to before
if you've revised.
Because the only time I've everremembered is there was a guy
once who he used to query meevery week with the same query.
He never rewatched it and afterlike a year, I mean, I guess
you could say it was a goodstrategy because, like after a
(01:06:42):
year, I finally requested it.
I guess you could say it was agood strategy Cause, like after
a year, I finally requested it.
It was like let me read thisbook, um, but then I gave him
notes and he was like I don'twant you to edit me, I want you
to just sell my book.
And I was like oh okay, I'msorry, nevermind, but um, but I
feel like you know for the mostpart, um, I have a couple of who
(01:07:07):
who queried me and they eitherqueried me with a different
manuscript or they queried mewith the manuscript I ended up
signing them for, but adifferent version of it, and I
had said no, and then later theyqueried me again and I I was
like, oh, I'd like to see thisand now we work together.
So, um, and they were allafraid to tell me that at first,
which I was like why?
That's great, it's a greatstory.
Speaker 6 (01:07:30):
But no.
So I keep trying.
Can I ask a little follow-up?
Sure, so the theme of the well,about 40% or so are rejections.
Most are just silence right.
And then the rejections allseem to say the same thing,
which is not the right fit.
In fact, that phrase shows upalmost every time.
(01:07:52):
Even I've had a couple ofpartials, and they come back the
same.
Not the right fit.
What is that code for?
If anything I mean, does itmean anything other than I wrote
you off right?
Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
You know it doesn't necessarily mean anything, and
the thing is is that you know,at the end of the day, my, my
job as an agent really is tolike my responsibility is to my
clients.
To like my responsibility is tomy clients.
And so, while I feel like I'malways looking, you know, for
(01:08:34):
the potential next book that I'mgoing to fall in love with and
that I might want to representand that might become a client
still especially now in mycareer like, 99% of my day
really is just clients, it's notprospective clients.
And so you know I have toprioritize my time for clients,
which means that a lot of timesif I'm passing on something,
(01:08:55):
whether I'm passing on a queryor a partial, it's just a form
response and everyone is gettingthe same thing, and so that
like not the right fit couldmean anything from like I wasn't
invested in the beginning.
I don't like this concept.
I represent something else likethis concept or or even
(01:09:17):
something that, like you know,is really unhelpful.
Like mermaids creep me out.
I don't want to book aboutmermaids, so like it just really
unhelpful.
Like mermaids creep me out.
I don't want a book aboutmermaids, so like it just really
could be anything.
But I would say that you know,if you're getting, you know
there's nothing you can do aboutthe silence, right, because who
knows what that means they'rebusy.
But if you're getting whatfeels like a lot of rejection in
(01:09:39):
terms of your ratio of likerejections to requests, then my
recommendation would definitelybe to try to rework your query.
Sometimes that might be justpull out a blank page and you
know what the other query says,but just rewrite it and try to
do it a little bit differently,because sometimes that can
(01:10:03):
really help.
Um, another thing that I wouldsuggest is in terms of agents
that you're reaching out to.
Um, I know that a lot of youknow the pandemic brought a lot
of new problems and um, and so alot of agents who are have been
doing this longer and are moreestablished, found themselves in
(01:10:24):
a position where, almost likewe had the right amount of
clients for pre-pandemic time,but now it almost feels like you
have too many, because we'respending more time solving, you
know, problems that weren'tproblems before, like, oh my
gosh, how are we, we gonna getthis printed in time?
Uh, you know, or there aren'tany, there aren't any truck
(01:10:48):
drivers to drive the books fromthe warehouse or whatever.
Um, and so I definitely, Iwould recommend, like,
definitely, submit to agents whoare, you know, newer agents,
who work at established agencies, because a lot of those agents,
like they're the ones that,like, they're building their
(01:11:10):
lists, they're really hungry for, for authors and and I always
feel like you know, you have toeverybody starts somewhere, and
you know that that author, whoyou know signed with me, was my
first client, like, she queriedmy boss and not me, but you know
, she took a huge chance on meand I'm really glad that it paid
(01:11:32):
off.
I think it helped that I was atan established agency and that I
had a lot of agents that Icould talk to and, like, get the
right advice from and,obviously, like, like we
connected well.
But I think that, especiallyright now, if you know, you're
feeling like I want to find theright person that there are, so
(01:11:56):
there are so many great agentsout there who are relatively new
, like within the like the lastcouple years, couple of years,
who assisted another agent for acouple of years before that,
and now they're building theirown list and I think that you
might have better luck with someof them than people who've been
(01:12:16):
doing this for like 10, 15, 20years, just because a lot of
people that I talk to who'vebeen around that long are
feeling a little bit like oh,I'm just so busy, like I don't
have time to sign new authors.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
Love that, love that.
So I'm going to do a quickquestion, really quick.
You mentioned things that weredead a while ago, so I'm just
going to throw out some thingsand can you tell me if they're
dead or if they're still, okay,dead or alive?
Yeah, vampires Alive, actuallyWitches, oh, alive, very alive,
(01:12:56):
very hot Dystopian.
Speaker 3 (01:13:01):
That remains to be seen.
It's been dead for a while.
I've heard some people whothink it might be coming back.
I'm skeptical, ghost a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
Dead zombies, pretty dead.
I haven't heard anything aboutzombies, I'm just curious um
dark academia uh, very hot rightnow.
Speaker 3 (01:13:26):
It just has to be like pretty different and
distinct okay, any otherquestions?
Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
you guys nope.
Well, thank you again, suzy,for absolutely everything.
You've been brilliant andyou've been so sharing your
wisdom.
We appreciate that, no thankyou.
Speaker 4 (01:13:49):
Thank you again so excited.
Speaker 3 (01:13:52):
I mean congratulations, so excited for
you.
Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
Thank you thank you, thank you, thank you appreciate
it all right have a great nighteverybody.
Speaker 4 (01:14:01):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (01:14:07):
That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD
Mayer.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
jdmayorcom.
That's jdmayorcom.
(01:14:27):
While you're there, join JD'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
(00:26):
writing journey.
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmyallcom.
That's jdmyallcom.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
In season two, episode 11 of Craft Chat
Chronicles, we're going to talkto Susie Townsend.
Susie Townsend has been at thetop of the literary agent
landscape for 15 years.
She's sold books that havebecome movies and TV shows.
She's negotiated deals for sixfigures and up and she's going
(01:05):
to tell you about her journeyinto the world of publishing.
She's going to give advice onwriting and craft and she's
going to tell you about thestate of the publishing market
and what's hot and what she seesselling now.
So, without further ado, thisis Season 2, episode 11 of Craft
Chat Chronicles.
Let's get chatty.
(01:26):
We're recording, so if you'reshy you can turn your camera off
.
Okay, welcome everybody.
I guess we'll go ahead and getstarted.
For tonight's Craft Chat we haveSusie Townsend.
Susie is a highly respectedliterary agent and vice
president at New Leaf Literaryand Media.
(01:47):
She is very talented atspotting unique voices and she
represents some bestsellingauthors like Cassandra Clare,
who's given us Shadowhunters andthe Mortal Instruments series,
and today she's going to talkabout her journey as an agent.
And today she's going to talkabout her journey as an agent.
She's going to talk about thepublishing industry and she's
(02:12):
going to give you guys somevaluable craft and writing tips.
So welcome again.
Welcome Susie.
Yes, no, thank you.
First of all, I want to thankyou deeply, since we just
announced the book.
So thank you, thank you, thankyou, yes.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
No, of course, Congratulations.
I feel like obviously nothing Idid would have been possible
without you writing the greatbook.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
So thank you.
Can you tell us how you becamean agent?
Tell us a little bit about yourjourney?
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yeah sure, so I I always tell people that I fell
into agenting.
Sure, so I always tell peoplethat I fell into agenting.
It wasn't really a job that Iknew anything about.
I graduated college with anEnglish degree and was like, oh,
what do I do now?
And I actually went intoteaching.
(02:59):
I taught high school Englishfor six years and I really
enjoyed it.
But I definitely had moments,you know, during faculty
meetings, when we were arguingover like whether we should have
a water cooler, where I thoughtthis is really what I want to
do the rest of my life.
And and I used to always tellmy students I taught.
(03:22):
I had a lot of juniors and so Iused to always talk to them
about how like, find what do youlove to do, find something that
will pay you to do that, andlike that then will help you
pick your career path, andthings like that student one
(03:45):
time who was like is what?
you love to do, really interactwith teenagers and at that
moment I was thinking, no, no,it's not um.
And I kind of thought to myself, like I just love to read, like
who would pay me to read?
Um.
And around that same time mysister she's a couple years
younger than me and she hadgotten a job in textbook
publishing and she was workingin curriculum, um, in like the
(04:08):
social studies sort of likecurriculum, putting together
textbooks, and she kept tellingme about it and I was thinking
like, oh, that's so cool, likehow, like I like curriculum,
like I would like that and um,and so it's sort of like a
combination of arrogance andnaivety made me decide I'm just
(04:29):
going to move to New York Cityand get into publishing.
And I was in California at thetime, so I packed up all of my
belongings and my animals anddrove across the country and got
to New York.
And drove across the countryand got to New York and I
thought that I had like saved upenough money to basically like
(04:50):
give me maybe like a year of acushion to be like, oh, I can
figure out what I want to do andfind the right job, and if I
don't, then I can always teachin New York, and it definitely
was like three months, like Ihad not saved enough for a year,
but I was lucky because I foundI found an internship, um, and
(05:12):
it was for a literary agency andI didn't know what that was, um
, but I went in for an interviewand I wore my pantsuit and I
read like five books on theirwebsite and was like ready to
answer all the questions.
And I got there for theinterview and the girl who
interviewed me was wearing aband t-shirt and jeans and she
(05:33):
asked me like four questions.
Um, she asked me what I likedto read and if I could read
things that needed work and anddo edit.
And I was like, oh, I was ahigh school English teacher, I
can read anything, and um, andthen she's kind of like, okay,
(05:53):
when can you start?
And I was like tomorrow, um,and within like the first few
days, I was like, oh, my gosh,like screw textbooks.
Like this is what I want to do,like I could, just, this is a
job.
Like I can read fiction.
Um, what I did as an intern wasI would read the queries that
came in, um, and if I liked thesound of them, I would go to the
(06:19):
agent and be like I want torequest this and here's what I
like about this query.
And sometimes they would say tome like, oh, I don't know that
I want another mystery novelright now.
Like I have a lot of those.
And in that case, if they weregoing to say no, then I would
find basically someone else inthe office, like another agent,
(06:42):
and be like, hey, this agent gotthis query and doesn't want to
see it, but I really think itsounds good.
Like could I request it?
Like would you look at it ifit's good?
Um, and when the manuscriptscame in that I requested, I
would read them and write upnotes.
Uh, like we called it areader's report, but I would
write up, like you know, asynopsis of what happened and
(07:04):
then also like what I felt werethe strengths and weaknesses of
the manuscript.
And I loved it.
I was like this is amazing.
I can't believe I get to dothis.
And my internship was only liketwo days a week, but I kept
finding excuses to come in everyday and read more and like do
things and help out every dayand read more and like do things
(07:29):
and help out.
And the head of the company atone point was like you're here
every day.
And I was like, oh no, I'mgoing to get in trouble.
And he was like I feel like weshould pay you.
And I was like, oh OK, great,you know, maybe like more money.
And so he hired me as anassistant.
It's not exactly a well-payingjob but it was great.
And when he had said to me atone point like, oh well, you
(07:49):
know, do you want to become anagent?
And at the time I really had noidea what agents did.
It just seemed like a lot oflike phone calls, but I really
liked reading the manuscriptsand like finding clients.
So I was like baby.
And he was like, well, you know, like in a couple of years,
(08:10):
after you've assisted for awhile, like if you do a good job
, then like we can talk aboutmaybe you signing your first
couple of clients.
I was like, okay, great, um.
And then a month later, later,he got a query, uh, for a YA
(08:32):
paranormal romance.
And this was in, uh, 2008, oractually might have been like
late 2007, but it was like justpost twilight, in that sort of
like era of publishing where,like YA was really expanding as
a category, um, and paranormal.
Ya was like what everyone waslooking for.
And my boss, I was like I foundthis query.
I it looks really great.
(08:54):
I had requested it.
Uh, I read the manuscript.
I loved it.
It was a paranormal romance, itwas a love triangle, you know,
a normal human girl and then anangel and a demon.
And I was like it's so funny,it's so good, the voice is so
great, like you should sign this.
And he was like oh no, I don't,I don't really do YA.
(09:17):
And I was like but this willsell.
I like I know this will sell.
I know teenagers I had to workwith them for years this will
sell.
Um, and he was like, no, it'sokay.
And I like asked everyone elsein the office and I kept talking
about the book and then theauthor got an offer of
representation from anotheragent and so I told my boss
(09:39):
again.
I was like here are all thereasons you should sign this.
I know exactly where you shouldsend it, I know exactly what
you should do.
And he said to me well, if youlove this so much, if you want
to offer representation, you can.
You can be the agent.
And I was like okay, now thatI've done this for many years, I
(10:02):
look back at that and think heprobably didn't think she'd sign
with me because I was a baby, Iwas brand new, and I don't
think he thought that she wouldsign with me because she had
another offer.
But she and I talked and we hada great call and she did sign
with me and I went on submissionwith the project.
(10:23):
I did some editing, we went onsubmission and then I had three
editors who offered and so wesold the book at an auction and
then my boss was like, oh wow,like you did know what you were
talking about.
And so he was like, if you wantto take on a couple of clients,
we can, we can make that work.
(10:46):
Um, I also look back at thattime and think like there was so
much I didn't know and therewas a lot of like you know,
pausing to be like wait, howshould I handle this?
But I was very fortunate that Ihad some good agents at the
agency who are great mentors andlike helped me along the way.
(11:07):
But that was sort of like how Ibecame an agent, Um, and now
it's 15 years later, ish, um,and I have about like 30, I
think it's 31 active clientsthat I work with Um and there
was a time that I tracked likehow many books I had sold Um and
(11:29):
I've since lost track.
But I feel like that's a goodproblem.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
It is great problem to have.
So what does a day in your lifelook like now?
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Um.
So now there's always a lot ofemails, um, I get probably about
200 emails a day, um.
And then some of them are onesthat I am just like a a fly on
the wall for it's.
You know, my authors aretalking to their editors or
their publicists or differentthings like that.
Um, I have to read everythingbecause something might come up
(12:01):
that I need to weigh in on, butit doesn't always require a
response.
And then other emails areemails that I definitely have to
respond to, if someone is likeoh my gosh, I hate my cover.
Or if an author is thinkinglike well, I really want to do
(12:24):
this anthology that I got anopportunity for, but will it fit
into my schedule?
So I definitely answer a lot ofemails.
I also, at this point in mycareer, I have a lot of meetings
and phone calls, and sometimesthose are meetings where I'm
meeting with an editor and we'recatching up whether we're
(12:46):
getting together in person orwe're getting together on the
phone.
But I'll be asking them whatbooks do they have coming out
soon that they're excited about,what holes are on their list,
what things are they looking for?
Um, or I might be meeting withauthors to talk them through,
like if they don't like theiredits or if they're struggling
(13:09):
to to, you know, finishsomething on time.
Uh, we might also be meeting totalk about strategy.
Um, I also have a lot of callsand meetings about, uh like,
marketing and publicity plansfor books that are coming out.
As an agent, I always say, likeit's, you know, you start
(13:32):
working on a project beforebefore the book deal, you know,
and you might edit it, get itready, and then you know the
next step on it is like youmight step back a little bit as
the author works with theireditor, but at the same time,
you're always there to sort oftroubleshoot any problem and to
also like, especially with afirst time author, prepare them
(13:52):
for, like, what are the nextsteps?
So you know, when it's time tostart thinking about a cover, a
lot of times the publisher willsay like, oh, we're getting
ready to do the cover, do youhave any ideas?
So we'll talk about, like, whattheir cover brief should look
like and what things will behelpful to tell the publisher so
(14:17):
that you get a cover that youlike and not one that you don't.
Ideally, ideally.
But if you do get one that youdon't like, then I'm the person
to go to the publisher and belike we don't like this.
Here are the changes we want.
Um, and I always say that myauthors what I want them to be
able to do is just focus ontheir writing, um, and then be
(14:37):
in all their interactions withthe publisher, be the person
who's like, oh, I'm so excitedto work with you, like, this
sounds fun.
And then I'll be the bad guy IfI'm like, no, that's too much
work, we're not going to do that.
Or like, no, we don't like thiscover.
Or like we can't do this editbecause it's wrong or whatever
(14:58):
it is.
I'm that person, so that theauthor doesn't have to be that
person.
Um, and then you know, as, as abook finishes going through the
editorial process and it goesinto copy edits, um, then I'm
also starting to have theconversation with the author
about, like, what they'rewriting next.
Like are they writing a sequelthat's part of that book deal
(15:20):
that we did, or are they writingsomething new that would be a
follow-up to that book?
And then, at the same time,we're also pausing to talk about
the book, the upcomingpublication, and like what the
marketing publicity plans looklike, while the publisher is
doing their thing, which theauthor be doing for promotion.
(15:43):
So, as a result, I feel like myday, any any given day, could
look so different in terms ofwhat I'm talking about.
Um, because, also because I'mgoing through those steps with
30 different authors, uh, someof whom write romance, and so
(16:03):
they write about three books ayear, and then some of whom you
know, write more literaryfiction, and so they might write
a book every three years, orsomething like that.
So so, where they are in theprocess, every day is so
different.
So, as a result, my day isalways so different, and
(16:23):
sometimes that means a problemcomes up that I'm like oh, we
haven't, I haven't dealt withthis before.
During the pandemic, one of myauthors we had to move her pub
date back because her books wereprinted in China and they were
sent on a ship across the oceanand somehow some of the books
(16:48):
fell off the ship into the oceanand so there were not books to
get to the stores, and so we hadto move her pub date, and so,
like we had to have a call aboutthat and figure, like, how are
we going to message this to fansthat actually their book is
going to be delayed, and youknow, what do we do about the
book tour that was planned andthings like that?
(17:09):
So, sometimes, like weirdthings come up that you're like,
oh, okay, well, let's figurethat out.
So that I feel like that is, myjob is to plan as much as we
can for the worst possible casescenario and how to protect the
author against that worst casescenario.
Um, and then, when the stuffthat we didn't necessarily see
(17:32):
coming comes up, to also figureout like, okay, how do we fix
this?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
love that.
What is your slush file lookinglike these days?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
So I get a lot of.
I get a lot of YA and Idefinitely I also get a lot of
fantasy and I would say thatright now I'm seeing a lot of
romanticy, which is definitely abuzzword, but I would say that
it varies.
You know, sometimes it is theromanticity that feels a little
(18:06):
bit like the romance is the Aplot and then sometimes the
romance, or sometimes like theromance is the B plot and
actually like it's the fantasyworld and the world pulling and
like whatever politics are goingon there, it's the A plot.
So that could be a pretty broadrange.
I'm seeing a lot of that.
I also am seeing it sort ofinteresting like almost like a
(18:31):
horror romance mashup of genresright now and I think that's
kind of interesting.
It's like almost like sort oftaking like what's working in
romanticity and like taking it astep further.
So and I did hear I have notseen this in my first file, but
I heard from an editor thatshe's seeing a lot of dystopian
(18:52):
romance, which she called distoromance, but I don't know that
that moniker is going to take-off.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
What would you like to see?
What are the things that you'rehoping to receive?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Oh you know, I always say that I will follow a
character I love anywhere, andso and I, I guess, like, what
makes a query stand out the mostto me is actually like the, the
(19:24):
voice in the query, and I knowthat's really hard, like it's
really hard to get voice intoyour query because it's very
short, um, but um, but that'susually what makes me be like I
want to read this, um, and so Idon't necessarily.
I mean, I, I'm a 16 year oldgirl at heart, I love romance, I
(19:47):
love magic.
So, like, if you know anythingabout my authors, you would know
, like you could tell, like Ilove my fantasy romance that you
know have slight speculativeelements that are, um, you know,
(20:07):
family relationships orrom-coms, like I love.
I was that kid that loved toread anything, um, and I still
am.
So I, I love characters who are,um, really passionate, are, um,
(20:29):
really passionate, who meanwell but are flawed and, you
know, make those decisions that,like, as a reader, you might be
like, oh, I see why you didthat, but that's gonna make
everything so much worse.
Um, I, I never would have saidthat I liked unlikable
characters, but I sold a bookearly on in my career and, um,
we had several rejections fromeditors that were like, oh, I
(20:50):
don't like unlikable characters,and I was like, what are you
talking about?
I love her.
And I realized, oh, oh, I do.
I, as long as people like youknow if they have redeeming
qualities and you kind ofunderstand why they're going
down the path they're going down.
If they're interesting, Ireally like them.
(21:11):
So that's my non-answer to thatquestion.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Do you have any advice for people who might want
to become literary agents?
Speaker 3 (21:22):
who might want to become literary agents.
I mean, I think the best, thebest advice I can give you is to
read a lot of the books thatare on the bestseller list I
apologize, my phone is makingnoise Read books that are on the
bestseller list, that are onthe times list.
I, when I first started, I hadasked someone in someone in
(21:45):
publishing, like you know, I waslike I don't, I have just an
English degree.
Like, should I like?
Should I take classes inpublishing?
Should I do something?
And he was like, no, you know,the best education really is
like what is selling well, likewhat's working well and um, and
(22:05):
to read as much as you can, umand so for me, one of the things
that that I think really helpedis, like, you know, I read
things that that hit the bestseller list, that people were
all talking about.
Um, you know, I mean I rememberreading 50 shades of gray and it
.
It was not my favorite read,but it was like, like I always
(22:26):
approach books that like maybe Ididn't love but that were
selling really well, with theidea of like, what is it?
What is it that that theaverage consumer is reading and
loving about this?
Like, what do they like aboutit and what is kind of pulling
them in, what's making them goon to like the next book, and I
(22:50):
think that I think that'sprobably a very similar quality
that's helpful to you, whetheryou're an agent or a writer,
because sometimes, like you canlook at a book and be like it's
not my favorite, but the way theauthor you know, the way they
end each one of their chapters,or something really makes you
(23:10):
want to kind of like keepturning the page or something
like that.
Like you can usually find areason of like why other people
might be loving it even if it'snot your favorite.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Love that.
What genres do you think areselling really well right now?
Speaker 3 (23:31):
So fantasy romance is selling really well right now.
I think that it's a.
It's one of those genres thathas a little bit of something
for everyone.
Genres that has a little bit ofsomething for everyone.
Rom-coms are still doing verywell.
I think that there's a littlebit of element of escapism right
(23:53):
now, and I would say that we'veseen this since the pandemic.
Going into the pandemicbeforehand, I remember people
being like oh yeah, I have a lotof fantasy on my list, I don't
know that I'm acquiring muchmore.
And then the pandemic hit andsuddenly it felt like everyone
being like oh yeah, I have a lotof fantasy on my list, I don't
know that I'm acquiring muchmore.
And then the pandemic hit andsuddenly it felt like everyone's
(24:13):
like no, no, I do want fantasybecause I want to get away from
real life, and I think that'sstill that's still the case.
I think that horror has hasreally been doing well also, and
(24:36):
I think that that it's almostlike an element of like you read
something and you're like oh,my life's not that bad.
Um and um, and then I thinkthat it's hard to do a book
that's funny and so humor.
Um always does really well Ifyou can actually make people
like laugh out loud, then thatalways does well.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
What do your agent author relationships with your
client look like?
Do they pitch you novel ideasor do they send you proposals,
or do they send you whole novels?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
So it's sometimes it depends on them.
I have an I have one author whoum it.
She always says that if shestarts trying to talk about a
book before she writes it,before she writes a draft, that
she won't be able to actuallyfinish the draft, that she has
to just sit down and write.
If she tries to talk about theplot, like it just it's dead.
(26:50):
So so she'll just email me andbe like I wrote a thing here.
It is Um, and I I've hadauthors before who will write
something um, and send it to meand be like I started this
project as a YA novel or as anadult novel, but now I wrote it
and I don't know what it is Um,and I always say like that's
(27:13):
fine, I will, I'll read it andI'll tell you like where it will
go.
Um, but um.
And then on the other end of thespectrum I have I have some
authors who will have like aspreadsheet of ideas and when
it's time to think about a newbook, they'll send me their
spreadsheet and kind of be likewhat, which one do you think I
(27:34):
should write?
Like, what do you think is themost commercial?
Um, and we'll potentially liketalk about several ideas and and
then pick one, um and, and thenI have some other authors who
fall in the middle where it'slike they'll work on something a
little bit and maybe send melike a snippet or send me kind
of like a pitch or like a firstchapter and ask for my thoughts
(27:58):
and then sort of like, and thendive in full speed ahead.
So I think for me as an agent,like every author works
differently and so I have to bea little bit adaptable to the
process, because I can'tactually do anything right, like
my job doesn't exist if I don'tget a manuscript, if I don't
(28:21):
get the book.
So whatever's really whatever'sgoing to help the author get
that book written best.
That's what I'm here for.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Awesome.
I'm going to move into somecraft questions.
What are the essential elementsof a good YA novel?
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Oh man, I mean.
So I think one of the things isthat you know, as a teenager,
like everything can feel so lifeor death can feel so life or
(29:02):
death, um, and so the in a YAnovel, that sense of like,
urgency I think is so important.
Um, and obviously, like, ifyou're, you know, writing a
dystopian novel, like a hungergames, where you know kids are
killing kids and are you goingto survive, like that's clearly
very life or death.
But I think that, um, you know,if, in a situation where, like
(29:24):
you know, even a book, a bookwhere the plot is just like, um,
about a girl whose mom is sick,that's still life or death,
that's a life or death situationto that character.
And so I think that you canstill infuse a sense of urgency
into almost any situation in aYA novel.
(29:47):
But I think the best, I feellike the best way to do that, or
like the thing that you reallyneed, is to ensure that there's
so much emotional resonance, um,between the reader and the
character.
Um, and the.
I always, probably everyone Iwork with, uh, who is a writer,
(30:08):
gets annoyed with me, becauseone of the questions that I'm
always asking in edits is likebut what are they thinking right
now?
How are they feeling?
How did they react to thisdialogue that this other person
said?
And I think that, particularlyin YA, like closing the
narrative distance and likereally getting into that the
(30:30):
character's head helps reallybuild emotion and create that
resonance with the reader.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
What do you look for in the opening pages of a
manuscript?
What do you like to see on thefirst page?
Speaker 3 (30:45):
So, early on in my career, I went to a writing
conference and someone had askedoh, I was on a panel with a
bunch of agents and someone inthe audience asked, like when?
Like how much do you read whenyou get a query, like in the
pages, like how far in do youread?
(31:05):
And there was an agent who hadbeen in the business a long time
, he had a lot of bestsellersand he said I read the first
line.
If I like it, I read the firstline.
If I like it, I read the secondline.
If I still like it, I read thethird line.
And he was saying, like youknow, as soon as I'm not hooked
and I can put it down and walkaway, like that's when I stop.
(31:29):
And at the time, you know,everyone thought that that was a
very harsh answer, but I doactually think that it's really
true in that, like, if you thinkabout it, like when I go to
look at my queries, I usuallyhave, you know, probably it does
(31:49):
amount to probably like between150 and like 200 queries a week
, um, and I often am sittingdown to do them like once every
couple of weeks.
So they've piled up, um, and mygoal is to go through them and
like read all, read them all, uh, uh, in one sitting and say yes
(32:11):
or no very quickly.
Um, and so, in terms of, interms of like the, the writing
and the voice and and thecharacter and everything like
that, I feel like you reallyneed the character and the voice
of the manuscript to sort oflike pop off the page right from
(32:34):
the get, go um and and it againit.
You know, sometimes that'sreally easy if you have a really
high stakes plot to, like youknow, start in the middle of the
action with somethingsurprising and sort of catch
someone's interest.
Um, but there are like so manybeautiful books out there where,
like, it's just the character,the character's voice, talking
(32:59):
about something that'sinteresting or important to them
.
That really kind of like opensthe manuscript and makes you
feel like, oh, I want to, I wantto get to know this person,
like I, I want to know, like,where they're going love that.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
What's the biggest mistake that you're seeing in
your slash pal currently?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
um.
So you know I always say, like,in terms of my queries, that
like sometimes I get querieswhere, like you know, someone
spelled my name wrong, which isjust like you got one chance to
make an impression, like youwant to make sure you proofread,
um, or like sometimes I'll getthings where, like someone you
(33:45):
know clearly doesn't they're nottelling me what their book is
about, which is like the numberone thing I want from a query.
But I would actually say thatfor the most part, I don't
really see that many likequeries where you're like, oh,
(34:07):
this was a big mistake.
Thing that makes me pass on aquery is that it feels a little
forgettable or it feels too muchlike something I've seen before
, like it just doesn't feel likeI'll remember it tomorrow.
And and I this is why I kind ofthink for me at least, it's come
(34:30):
down to like the voice of thequery, because you know there
are, you know you mentionedCassandra Clare.
There's a lot of plots thatmight be similar to some of her
plots out there, but I thinkthat it's it's the voice that
tends to tends to stand out andtends to make people then like
(34:51):
talk about the, about thecharacters, like fandoms.
They always respond tocharacters more than they
respond to like the world or theactual plot, like they like
those things and they thinkthey're cool.
But you always see fandomsarguing over like love interests
and things like that, and youknow, being on a certain team or
(35:16):
whatever, writing fan fictionabout characters.
They wanted to be together andand so I, I really think it kind
of comes down to that Love that, love that.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
And any advice on creating compelling characters.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
What are the kinds of characters that you love?
So I think that probably thebig thing, the big advice I
guess that I have on compellingcharacters, is that you want to
know them so well, like you wantto know them inside and out,
you want to know theirpersonality, them so well, like
you want to know them inside andout.
You want to know theirpersonality, you know you don't
have to necessarily know theirlike astrological sign or like
things like that, but like allof their personality traits,
(36:04):
like you want to know thatinside out, you want to know
their motivations, you want toknow, like what they would do in
certain situations.
Because the more you know thecharacter is sort of off page
then the easier it is to getthat on the page.
And at the same time, I wouldsay that the biggest advice that
I give authors in terms oftheir characters is when you're,
(36:26):
particularly when you'reediting like once you have a
full draft and you're rereadingand looking at everything, like
I would definitely make surethat when you're editing like
once you have a full draft, um,and you're rereading and looking
at everything, like I woulddefinitely make sure that when
you're, when you're talkingabout your character's emotions
or you're, you know, trying toconvey their motivations or
their reactions to things.
I would say that, like youprobably want to like flesh it
(36:51):
out like one step further thanyou think you need to, because
once you know a character well,um, it's easy to feel like
you've like conveyed theirthoughts and feelings and and
everything on the page andsometimes, you know, to the
reader who's just meeting themfor the first time.
Sometimes we need more.
(37:13):
So I I often give that note Interms of, like, what makes a
character compelling to me.
I mean a little bit along thelines of what I said earlier
about how, like I really Ireally like characters who make
mistakes, who mean well, butmake mistakes.
Because you know, particularlyin YA, through thinking of YA
(37:34):
novels, because you know, all ofus, as teenagers made some, I'm
sure, some pretty embarrassingmistakes and and I think that
you know, no matter what's goingon in a character's life, like
if they're taking action, um, totry to solve something, to try
to get around an obstacle to getwhat they want or what they
(37:56):
need, or whatever it is, um, youknow they're not going to, they
can't do it perfectly,otherwise there's no story Right
, so, um, so I love charactersthat, like you know, they have
good intentions, they think theythink they're doing the right
thing, but perhaps they're not,uh, and they're making mistakes.
(38:19):
And then, you know, the stakeskeep building from that love
that.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Any advice on keeping the tension going throughout
the novel and avoiding the saggymiddle.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Yeah.
So I would say that you know,sometimes this is I think pacing
is something that you oftenkind of address a little bit
more, like after you've writtenyour first draft and like once
you're going through it.
But I would always say, likefor any scene, you want to get
into the scene late and you wantto get out early.
So every scene should in someway help develop your character,
move along the plot andpotentially, you know, give the
(39:03):
reader some insight either intothe world or the backstory or
something like that.
And I always feel like you know, if you, when you're watching a
TV show and characters calleach other on the phone, they
never say goodbye, they justhang up on each other.
And it's something that I feellike as the audience when we're
(39:25):
watching, we don't even reallythink about it, because you see
them, they hang up like thephone call's done good.
But it's because that, eventhough that's really unrealistic
like I can't think of the lasttime I just hugged up on someone
at the end of a conversationit's almost like the goodbyes
can be implied, they don't needto be written out, and I think
(39:47):
it's kind of like a good analogyfor getting out of a scene
early or getting in late, isthat you know you don't need
your hellos and goodbyes, youjust need to get into the scene.
Um, and then I also think thatsometimes, um, you might, as
(40:07):
you're looking at a scene, ifyou're thinking like, oh, this
scene doesn't really move theplot forward.
It does tell me some thingsabout this character, but it's
not moving the plot forward.
That might mean that you wantto take those character details
that are learned in that sceneand you might want to add them
(40:29):
somehow in a different scene,like the scene right before it
or the scene right after it.
Sometimes you have to writecertain scenes in order for you,
the writer, to know them andthen later you can go back and
look at them and think like, oh,like I don't actually need this
.
The reader doesn't need to seethis happen.
They can find this informationout a different way.
(40:52):
So I think that's something toalways keep in mind.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
And how would you suggest they tie it up Like what
do you like to see in an ending?
How do you suggest that youmake their ending satisfying to
readers?
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Well, so I actually I always tell people that, like I
never would have done for MacMcCarthy's the Road, because
it's like so bleak.
I don't need like an endingthat wraps everything up in a
tight bow, but I usually, like Iwant enough closure.
So, like you know, if you thinkabout a plot, like any plot
(41:28):
boiled down to its like mostsimplest form, is that you have
a character who wants something.
There's an obstacle in theirway and they take action to try
to get it and things go awryfrom there.
Um, and you know, in the end ofthe book they might not get
what they want.
Sometimes they do, um, but they, if they don't get what they
(41:52):
want, they usually get what theyneed instead.
Um, and so I think that, likeyou want some sense of closure
in that respect.
Um, and it doesn't have to behappy, it doesn't have to be all
wrapped up, um, I personallylike a hopeful ending, but
plenty of other people liketheir bleak, sad or like
(42:16):
terrifying ending.
So, so, if you're, if you havean ending like that, it's okay.
It's just probably not for me.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Love that, love that.
So you read the manuscript, youadore the manuscript, you're
ready to make the call.
Um, what are you looking for inthe call and what should we be
looking for when we talk toagents?
Speaker 3 (42:37):
Yeah.
So for me, what I'm looking foris I, your agent, author
relationship is a long termpartnership.
It's a long distancerelationship, right?
Because we're not.
We don't see each other thatoften, probably, and so I always
want someone who is a reallygood communicator.
(42:59):
I, I really want to know, like,what are, what are their hopes
and dreams?
Like, what are their pie in thesky goals, what's their vision,
not just for this book, but fortheir career as a whole, and
you want to be able to balancethat a little bit with like,
with like the big goals, butalso like the dose of realism,
(43:22):
of kind of like.
You know.
You know, I had an author whosaid to me one time she was like
I want to hit the bestsellerlist, maybe not with this first
book, but someday, like that'smy goal.
Like I want to hit the New YorkTimes list.
I want to be able to say that Iwas a bestseller.
And I was like, yeah, great, andI, you know I had another
author who was like you know I,she was like I someday, like my,
(43:45):
my pie in the sky goal would beto, um, you know, get the film
rights options and be able towrite either the screenplay or
the uh, like the TV pilot.
And she always says, like itdoesn't have to.
I don't want final cuts, butlike I'd love to be able to do
(44:08):
like a first draft and, and Ithink for you, what is probably
like the things that you want tothink about in terms of an
agent is one I mean, do you feelcomfortable opening up to them
and talking about, like yourvision for the book and your
career and things like that?
(44:29):
Um, do they seem receptive tothe ideas?
Do they seem to have a similarvision for this book and like
for your career?
And I think like a good way toask that question is to think
about, like what you can ask theagent like, what are the comp
titles that you see for thisbook?
(44:51):
Um, because if you'reenvisioning your story as you
know, something that sits on ashelf next to like Emily Henry
or like Allie Hazelwood, and theagent is like, oh, the comp
(45:11):
titles are, you know, and they,they give you something that's
like much more obscure.
Then you kind of know, like,okay, we might not have the same
vision for this, and then Ialso think it's it's probably
really important for you to alsotalk about, like you know, what
other kinds of books do youwant to write?
Like, are you someone who, likeis like I just want to write YA,
(45:38):
I always want to write YA, I'mnot ever going to want to do
anything else, that's totallyfine.
But if you're also like no, I Iwrote this YA book and I'm
excited about it, but I alsosomeday, like want to write
adult books and I have this oneweird middle grade idea and like
, maybe I want to write apicture book.
Like, those are all things thatyou want to be able to talk to
that agent about and like makesure that if you guys worked
(46:00):
together, if you wrote something, um, that's not the same as
what they're signing you for, um, you know, are they still going
to want to work on it?
If they read something and it'snot their favorite, what do
they do?
Like, are they going to giveyou notes and help you get it
(46:21):
there so that it's ready to sell?
Are they going to know editorsin different spaces to help get
it to?
I often tell clients orprospective clients like I I've
done a little bit of nonfiction,I've done a little bit of
picture books, I've done acouple of graphic novels Um,
they're not my forte, but I knowthe right editors to get the
(46:43):
books too, and that's kind ofwhat matters.
Um, I've never done a businessbook.
You would not want me to sellyour business book, but there
are people on my team so if Isign someone for a YA fantasy
(47:05):
and later they wrote a businessbook, we have someone who can
help them sell it.
It just wouldn't be me, becauseI would not know anything about
who to go to for that Love thatLove that we have some
questions in the chat.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yes, yes okay.
One person says your manuscriptlist says you like upmarket
fiction, upmarket book clubfiction.
What does that mean and whatdoes that look like to you?
Speaker 3 (47:29):
Yeah, sure, so um, so market um means basically kind
of like not quite literaryfiction, but like less James
Patterson, I'd like more um.
Oh gosh, now I'm blanking butlike, just like a little bit
more elevated, like the kind ofthe kind of books that you would
(47:52):
read in a book club and talkabout, or the kind of books that
would have the like thediscussion questions in the back
, where you're talking about notjust plot but also like theme
and intention and like you knowwhat do we think the writer was
thinking when they did thisno-transcript?
(48:23):
I want things with a little bitmore heart and a little bit of
philosophy and not just like, oh, it's all action, um, but um.
But I think that you know areally good way to think of like
.
What are some examples of likebook club fiction is actually,
(48:44):
if you looked at like ReeseWitherspoon, hello Sunshine
Company she does those uh, likeReese Witherspoon book club
picks.
Or there's that company Book ofthe Month that chooses they
usually choose, I think it'slike five books and their
subscribers will like get oneeach month.
(49:06):
And those are, I would say, likereally good industry examples
of what book club fiction means.
It's often um, it doesn'tnecessarily have to be um, any
specific genre, like sometimesyou get things that are that
feel very like general fictionor like a family saga or um,
(49:27):
sometimes you'll find somethingthat is like a very light,
accessible, like fantasy, orfeels a bit like a fairy tale.
And then other times you getbooks that have they might not
be like a mystery, like mightnot be that someone died on page
one, but there might be amystery element to the plot.
(49:48):
That's kind of like pulling thereader along the plot.
That's kind of like pulling thereader along, but but usually
they all, they all have thatsort of like you know the things
that you could really talkabout and kind of dissect at the
end, like ask questions about.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Ashley wants to know.
Ashley said you're interestedin psychological suspense.
Would you mind sharing whatyou're looking for in that genre
?
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Yeah, of course I mean.
So I I think that you know Iread obviously like Gone Girl
and Girl on the Train and andthings like that, but one of my
favorite books in that sort ofpsychological suspense genre was
Ba paris wrote behind closeddoors, um, and I actually
(50:36):
listened to that as an audiobookand I think the entire last
hour of the book I I sat in acoffee shop just like because I
just couldn't believe what wasunfolding, um, and so.
So the number one thing I'mlooking for is that kind of like
that shock value where, like,the twists and the turns are you
(50:56):
know things that like I won'tsee coming.
But in terms of, in terms ofconcept, I actually think that,
like some of those psychologicalthrillers that have worked so
well, they work so well becausethey all sort of like ask the
same question about, like, howwell do you really know your
husband?
Or like, how well do you reallyknow this person that you
(51:20):
thought you knew so well, um,and I think that's a really
compelling question.
Now.
There's kind of been a lot ofthat.
So I think you have to thinkabout it as like, how do you
either do that in a differentway, or how do you ask this?
How does your book ask asimilar but different question
that a lot of people are goingto resonate with, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Does anybody else have any questions?
Don't raise your hand, becauseI can't see you all just ask.
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Yes, feel free to jump.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
I want to ask something.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
So how much does the market play in your decision to
sign an author Like, forinstance, if you really love a
book that you know might notsell well, versus a book that
you only like but know will sell.
Speaker 4 (52:16):
Well, like which one do you sign or do you sign the
book?
Speaker 3 (52:21):
Oh, that's such a good question.
I actually think it's probablyit's been different depending on
where I was in my career, the,you know, when I was starting
out for any book that I lovedbut wasn't sure would sell
because it was, you know, notthe right time for the book, or
(52:43):
something like that.
For every one of those that Itook on, I probably needed to
take on like three books that Iknew I know I can sell this,
like this will totally sell.
Um, because you know, I wasalso working in a place of like
I have to make enough, I have tosell enough to make enough
commission in order to to eatand and stuff.
(53:06):
But, um, but now, at this pointin my career, if I read
something and I love it topieces, it really doesn't matter
to me if.
If I don't know if it's goingto sell, if I don't know if it's
going to sell, because I'm in aplace where I can be like I
(53:27):
love this book, I will tryreally hard to sell it.
If I don't sell it, usually I'mthinking like I love this
author's writing, I love theirvoice, I have talked to them, I
really connect with them and Ithink that they'll write
something that I love, that Ican sell, like well, if we don't
(53:54):
sell this first one, we'lldefinitely sell something down
the line.
And you know, I, I also, I feellike for me I have a lot of
clients.
I have a full list.
I don't actually have that muchtime.
I don't sign that many clientsa year.
I've signed one so far thisyear and I didn't sign any last
(54:15):
year, and part of that islooking at how much time I have
to give to, you know, help themget to where they want to go.
And I I get a lot of queries nowin my career from authors who
are already published, who havebooks, you know, and and
(54:38):
oftentimes for me, like, even ifit's an author that I'm like,
oh, like they have anestablished editor, like this is
an easy sell.
I know exactly what to do withthis.
If it's probably like, like the, the work and the different
things that we have to do to gointo it, like I might not have
(54:58):
the right kind of time for them,for them, and I actually am at
a point where I always have tofeel like I have to be willing
to say like I will sleep lessbecause I love this book so much
that I will give up sleep, Iwill give up time with my family
, I will stay home and workinstead of like going on this
(55:21):
trip because I desperately wantto work on this book.
So for me now it's much moreabout like I just love this.
Yeah, thank you.
It's a very that's a very like,very privileged space to be in
now.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
Thank you so much.
Any other questions?
Speaker 4 (55:47):
I have a question.
Can you guys hear me?
Yes, oh, okay, hi, first of all, thank you for doing this,
appreciate it.
Mine is like a functionalquestion.
You're a literary agent.
When you say you're getting alot of queries 150 a week or
whatever, whatever voluminousamount it is are those people
(56:08):
that are already represented onsome level that are coming to
you because you're in the mix,or are these people coming to
you cold with like a firstchapter or two or a treatment?
What are you largely looking atas far?
Speaker 3 (56:22):
as yeah, yeah.
So.
So people who query me, um, youknow I would say that 99% of
the time they they're notrepresented, um, and we have no
connection at all.
You know, sometimes, sometimesthere might be someone who's
like I'm a friend of your author, or this person in the industry
told me to query you, orsomething like that, but most of
(56:45):
the time it's they're reachingout cold, but what they're
reaching out with, you knowtheir query.
I always say, like a queryshould be about about 250 words.
No one's going to count yourwords, but if you've written a
lot more than that, it'sprobably too long.
And if you've written a lotless than that, it's probably
too long.
And if you've written a lotless than that, it's probably
(57:06):
not long enough.
Um, and you basically areanswering the question what is
my book about?
Um, and I always say, like thebest examples are looking at
like your book jacket copy, likethe inside flap of a hardcover
or the back of a paperback.
A lot of times, the query thatan author, a debut author,
(57:27):
writes to me to describe theirbook, I use that query to and
from it like make some, makesome little changes, and use
that as a pitch letter that Isend to editors to be like you
want to read this, and I cannottell you how many times my pitch
letters have ended up as thejacket copy on a book.
So that's kind of like yourbest sort of like model.
(57:51):
If you want examples of whatworks and I always ask for my
queries Like I ask, send me yourquery and your first five pages
of your manuscript, because forme I want to be able to see oh,
do I like this idea?
And then do I like the writing?
Am I grabbed?
Um, and I, when I'm reading, ifI find grabbed like right away,
(58:16):
then I don't even read to theend, I just request it and then
go to the next one.
If I am bored and like not intoit, then I don't read to the
end of the five pages, I just goto the next one.
A lot of times if I'm readingand I get all the way to the end
(58:36):
of the five pages, I kind ofhave to ask myself like what was
it that kept me reading, like Iwas clearly interested myself?
Like what was it that kept mereading, like I was clearly
interested, but I I wasn't, Iwasn't grabbed enough to be like
yes, I have to see more um, andso I kind of have to sort of
determine, like do?
I think that it's a lot of timesif I request, it's because I
(58:58):
think that I think there'ssomething here.
I'm just not sure if the authorhas started the story in the
right place, but that's clearlysomething I can help fix.
So I'm going to go ahead andrequest it and then sometimes,
when I don't, it's like theremight be something here but I'm
not sure enough of where I thinkit might be going.
(59:20):
Or I'm not sure if I walk awayfrom my computer and never get
this manuscript, am I stillgoing to wonder sometimes what
happened to that book?
Because at the end of the day,like it's the books that that
(59:41):
you want to be able to be like.
Oh, I read that like a whileago, but I love it so much that
I keep thinking about it.
Those are the books that youthat are like kind of like
calling is like work on me.
So that's kind of what makes meask that Every agent is a
little bit different.
So a lot of times they'll ask.
(01:00:02):
Sometimes they'll ask for asynopsis, sometimes they'll ask
for 10 pages, sometimes they'llask for no pages.
Everybody wants a query, though.
Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
Got it.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Any more questions?
Speaker 6 (01:00:19):
I have one.
So the common wisdom is, youknow, it only takes one, yes,
yes, and so you should nevergive up.
But is that really true?
Speaker 3 (01:00:34):
You never get like, never give up writing.
Sure.
Sometimes it's okay to give upon a book and that giving up on
a book is like it's like you'reputting it in a drawer because
maybe you'll pull it out againsomeday later and look at it and
maybe not.
(01:00:55):
Um, sometimes it's just not theright time for that book.
Um, you know, I I mentioned howwhen I started in my career,
everybody wanted like aparanormal something, not
vampires, they were dead, butlike something paranormal.
And you know, then very quicklyafter that, nobody wanted
(01:01:15):
paranormal and everybody wanteddystopian, or you know, and the
trends move around.
So sometimes it's just not theright time for a book, but it
could be the right time in fiveyears, like everything is very
cyclical, trends always comeback.
One of the early authors Isigned we didn't sell her first
(01:01:36):
book and it was a contemporarygrounded, it was a YA mystery
and no one really wanted thatback then.
And she wrote a second bookthat was dystopian and that
didn't sell the world buildingdidn't quite work enough.
And then for her third book shewrote another contemporary and
(01:01:56):
that we sold that and that washer first published book.
Those first two books wesubmitted to like 40 people, 40
editors each, um, and we got alot of nice responses to her
writing, but it just wasn't theright thing, um.
But after she published herfirst book, when her editor was
like, what do you want to writenext?
(01:02:17):
She went back to that first oneand was, like you know, I still
love this book.
I've grown a lot as a writer.
I definitely like to like, makesome changes.
But what do you think aboutpitching this book to the editor
?
And I was like, yes, let's doit.
And that was her second book,her second published book.
So so things always come back.
(01:02:39):
I think that if you're, ifyou're writing something and
you're querying and you'regetting a lot of passes, and you
, you know, I guess, if you'regetting a lot of passes, I'd say
first revise your query andrevise your first chapter and
send them out again, becausesometimes it's just, it's just
the query, um.
But if you're not getting goodresponses with it and you're
(01:03:04):
feeling a little stuck, you knowelse, keep learning, keep
practicing your craft.
Like you get better and betteras a writer with every book you
(01:03:30):
do, and probably with every bookyou read too.
So I think you just kind ofhave to keep going.
I do sort of firmly believethat the you know, at the end of
the day, the never give upadvice is really good advice.
It's just don't give up on thedream as a whole.
(01:03:51):
I have an author who she alwaystalks about.
It wasn't her first book thatgot an agent, it was her eighth
book.
And it wasn't the book that shesigned the agent for that got
published, it was the second.
The second book she did withthat agent was the first one
that got published.
And it wasn't her first bookthat hit the New York Times list
(01:04:14):
, it was her seventh book.
And and you know then, like itwasn't, it wasn't her seventh
book that got a big advance, youknow it was her ninth book or
something like that.
So like that, those milestonesa lot of times, like it doesn't
happen right away and everywriter, even writers who are
hugely successful, uh, they allhave a novel in the drawer
(01:04:37):
somewhere that tied into aquestion in the chat, so, um, I
think you can answer.
Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
He was just asking someone was asking when to give
up on a book because they had 40rejections, and that was great.
Speaker 3 (01:04:51):
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that like, I think if you
still are feeling like I lovethis book, even if you have a
bunch of rejections, then itmight just be like go back and
reread and do some revisions.
And I always tell authors thatfor me and I think for a lot of
agents, like potholes or worldbuilding questions, those are
(01:05:16):
easy notes, right, like thoseare things that I can read
something and be like wait, Idon't understand this world
piece, like, explain it to me,Like let's get that in the
manuscript and that's an easyfix.
The harder fixes and the thingsthat would cause me to reject
something are always more aboutthe character and the voice.
If it's not there, like that'sa hard.
(01:05:36):
That's a hard note for me togive an author and know that
they'll be able to fix it.
Um, or sometimes the pacing ifthe pacing, you know, slows,
slows down or is too fast andthings like that, like that's
also a hard note for me to giveand have confidence Like I know
the author will be able to fixthis.
So I think those are probablythe two most important things to
(01:05:59):
look at and try to try torevise and then query again, and
I actually always say, if I gotyour query again because I get
so many if I didn't request it,you can always query me again,
as long as you rework your query, because I won't remember that
(01:06:21):
I got it before.
So you can always go back toagents that you went to before
if you've revised.
Because the only time I've everremembered is there was a guy
once who he used to query meevery week with the same query.
He never rewatched it and afterlike a year, I mean, I guess
you could say it was a goodstrategy because, like after a
(01:06:42):
year, I finally requested it.
I guess you could say it was agood strategy Cause, like after
a year, I finally requested it.
It was like let me read thisbook, um, but then I gave him
notes and he was like I don'twant you to edit me, I want you
to just sell my book.
And I was like oh okay, I'msorry, nevermind, but um, but I
feel like you know for the mostpart, um, I have a couple of who
(01:07:07):
who queried me and they eitherqueried me with a different
manuscript or they queried mewith the manuscript I ended up
signing them for, but adifferent version of it, and I
had said no, and then later theyqueried me again and I I was
like, oh, I'd like to see thisand now we work together.
So, um, and they were allafraid to tell me that at first,
which I was like why?
That's great, it's a greatstory.
Speaker 6 (01:07:30):
But no.
So I keep trying.
Can I ask a little follow-up?
Sure, so the theme of the well,about 40% or so are rejections.
Most are just silence right.
And then the rejections allseem to say the same thing,
which is not the right fit.
In fact, that phrase shows upalmost every time.
(01:07:52):
Even I've had a couple ofpartials, and they come back the
same.
Not the right fit.
What is that code for?
If anything I mean, does itmean anything other than I wrote
you off right?
Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
You know it doesn't necessarily mean anything, and
the thing is is that you know,at the end of the day, my, my
job as an agent really is tolike my responsibility is to my
clients.
To like my responsibility is tomy clients.
And so, while I feel like I'malways looking, you know, for
(01:08:34):
the potential next book that I'mgoing to fall in love with and
that I might want to representand that might become a client
still especially now in mycareer like, 99% of my day
really is just clients, it's notprospective clients.
And so you know I have toprioritize my time for clients,
which means that a lot of timesif I'm passing on something,
(01:08:55):
whether I'm passing on a queryor a partial, it's just a form
response and everyone is gettingthe same thing, and so that
like not the right fit couldmean anything from like I wasn't
invested in the beginning.
I don't like this concept.
I represent something else likethis concept or or even
(01:09:17):
something that, like you know,is really unhelpful.
Like mermaids creep me out.
I don't want to book aboutmermaids, so like it just really
unhelpful.
Like mermaids creep me out.
I don't want a book aboutmermaids, so like it just really
could be anything.
But I would say that you know,if you're getting, you know
there's nothing you can do aboutthe silence, right, because who
knows what that means they'rebusy.
But if you're getting whatfeels like a lot of rejection in
(01:09:39):
terms of your ratio of likerejections to requests, then my
recommendation would definitelybe to try to rework your query.
Sometimes that might be justpull out a blank page and you
know what the other query says,but just rewrite it and try to
do it a little bit differently,because sometimes that can
(01:10:03):
really help.
Um, another thing that I wouldsuggest is in terms of agents
that you're reaching out to.
Um, I know that a lot of youknow the pandemic brought a lot
of new problems and um, and so alot of agents who are have been
doing this longer and are moreestablished, found themselves in
(01:10:24):
a position where, almost likewe had the right amount of
clients for pre-pandemic time,but now it almost feels like you
have too many, because we'respending more time solving, you
know, problems that weren'tproblems before, like, oh my
gosh, how are we, we gonna getthis printed in time?
Uh, you know, or there aren'tany, there aren't any truck
(01:10:48):
drivers to drive the books fromthe warehouse or whatever.
Um, and so I definitely, Iwould recommend, like,
definitely, submit to agents whoare, you know, newer agents,
who work at established agencies, because a lot of those agents,
like they're the ones that,like, they're building their
(01:11:10):
lists, they're really hungry for, for authors and and I always
feel like you know, you have toeverybody starts somewhere, and
you know that that author, whoyou know signed with me, was my
first client, like, she queriedmy boss and not me, but you know
, she took a huge chance on meand I'm really glad that it paid
(01:11:32):
off.
I think it helped that I was atan established agency and that I
had a lot of agents that Icould talk to and, like, get the
right advice from and,obviously, like, like we
connected well.
But I think that, especiallyright now, if you know, you're
feeling like I want to find theright person that there are, so
(01:11:56):
there are so many great agentsout there who are relatively new
, like within the like the lastcouple years, couple of years,
who assisted another agent for acouple of years before that,
and now they're building theirown list and I think that you
might have better luck with someof them than people who've been
(01:12:16):
doing this for like 10, 15, 20years, just because a lot of
people that I talk to who'vebeen around that long are
feeling a little bit like oh,I'm just so busy, like I don't
have time to sign new authors.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
Love that, love that.
So I'm going to do a quickquestion, really quick.
You mentioned things that weredead a while ago, so I'm just
going to throw out some thingsand can you tell me if they're
dead or if they're still, okay,dead or alive?
Yeah, vampires Alive, actuallyWitches, oh, alive, very alive,
(01:12:56):
very hot Dystopian.
Speaker 3 (01:13:01):
That remains to be seen.
It's been dead for a while.
I've heard some people whothink it might be coming back.
I'm skeptical, ghost a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
Dead zombies, pretty dead.
I haven't heard anything aboutzombies, I'm just curious um
dark academia uh, very hot rightnow.
Speaker 3 (01:13:26):
It just has to be like pretty different and
distinct okay, any otherquestions?
Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
you guys nope.
Well, thank you again, suzy,for absolutely everything.
You've been brilliant andyou've been so sharing your
wisdom.
We appreciate that, no thankyou.
Speaker 4 (01:13:49):
Thank you again so excited.
Speaker 3 (01:13:52):
I mean congratulations, so excited for
you.
Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
Thank you thank you, thank you, thank you appreciate
it all right have a great nighteverybody.
Speaker 4 (01:14:01):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (01:14:07):
That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD
Mayer.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
jdmayorcom.
That's jdmayorcom.
(01:14:27):
While you're there, join JD'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.