September 27, 2025 • 54 mins
What if the loss of a dear friend could spark a new beginning that transforms the literary landscape for Black authors? Join us in this heartfelt episode as we welcome Beatrice Winifred Eicher, Chelsea Gayden, and Jill Tu, the dynamic team behind the Afro Knots podcast, which began as a tribute to their late friend KL Bird and flourished into a supportive community for Black writers. Beatrice delves into her love for Southern Gothic and horror, Chelsea embarks on her journey from querying to signing with agent Sarah Fisk, and Jill celebrates the release of her book "The Dividing Sky" while preparing for her middle-grade debut. Together, they share how a shared passion can push you from being an unagented writer to a debut author.
Discover the magic behind the Afro Knots podcast as we discuss the importance of authenticity and community in podcasting. With anecdotes about meaningful exchanges with authors like Tracy and Karen Strong, and plans to expand through a newsletter and Discord, we explore how opening up about the topics you love can forge genuine connections with your audience. Our conversation captures the excitement of starting a podcast using accessible tools like Anchor and Spotify for Podcasters, while also balancing the roles of creator and author. We talk about how a podcast can become more than just a platform but a refuge for sharing insights and experiences.
As the Afro Knots team navigates the world of publishing, Chelsea and Jill candidly share their trials and triumphs in seeking literary agents and developing their writing careers. Chelsea recounts the impact of the pandemic on her storytelling, leading her to a successful pitch contest, while Jill reflects on her six-year manuscript journey and the invaluable mentorship she received. Listen as they share the joys of becoming role models and how their platform serves as a beacon of support within the Black community. From personal tales to professional advice, this episode is a treasure trove of inspiration for aspiring authors and podcasters alike.
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🎙️ Craft Chat Chronicles with J.D. Myall
Candid conversations on writing, publishing, and creative life — featuring bestselling authors, MFA students, and writers at every stage of the journey.
About J.D. Myall
J.D. Myall is the co-chair of Drexel University’s MFA Alumni Association and a publishing and library professional. She is the creator and host of Craft Chat Chronicles, where she interviews authors, agents, and industry insiders about the art and business of writing.
Her work has appeared in Ms. Magazine, Writer’s Digest, and HuffPost. Her debut novel, Heart’s Gambit, releases with Wednesday Books/Macmillan in February 2026.
When she’s not conjuring magic, murder, and mayhem on the page, J.D. mentors emerging writers through workshops and alumni programs, fostering community among aspiring and published authors alike.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
(00:26):
writing journey.
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmyallcom.
That's jdmyallcom.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
In season two, episode six of Craft Chat
Chronicles, we talk to theaward-winning crew of the Afro
Knots podcast.
That's Jill Tu, author of theDividing Sky, chelsea Gayden and
Beatrice Winifred Eicher.
They talk about theirpodcasting and writing journey,
(00:59):
about using a podcast as asource of networking and
information and a source ofmarketing your books, and they
give tips for aspiring authorsand podcasters.
So it's a great conversation.
I hope you enjoy it.
Let's get chatty.
This is season two, episode sixof craft chat chronicles.
Welcome ladies, welcomeeverybody.
(01:21):
Um, you guys want to tell us alittle more about yourselves.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, Beatrice, you want to go first.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Sure, so my name is Beatrice, my pronouns are they,
them, and I am originally fromKnoxville, tennessee.
I write a lot of SouthernGothic, a lot of horror, a lot
(01:49):
of dark stuff.
That is my, uh, my, comfort.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
Um been doing this podcast, the afternoon's podcast
with my friends jill andchelsea for three, four years
now.
A minute it's been.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
A minute it's been a minute, um, and it has been
really, really powerful, reallypowerful experience.
And yeah, I have a book comingout next fall, my adult horror
debut.
It's called I'll Make aSpectacle of you.
And then I have a picture bookcoming out in spring 2026 called
(02:23):
Charlie's Honky Tonk Missions,about Charlie Pride, america's
first Black country superstar.
So that's me and I'll hand itover to Chelsea.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
Sure.
So I'm Chelsea Gayden pronounshe, they and so I recently got
agented and I would really likebasically thank the podcast for
like helping make that happen,because I think I was really
like lost before.
I found like this group.
I was, like you know, writingbut didn't really know like what
(02:55):
direction, querying with noresults.
But I don't know, meeting thesepeople and having them push me
and meeting other authors, likeit really I don't know, got me
to a new place where I feel likeI don't know really happy about
the direction I'm going in andI write YA, fantasy and sci-fi
(03:19):
and I have a book hopefullygoing on submission early in
next year Yay, say it a book,hopefully going on submission
early in next year Yay Say, andI'm Jill Tu.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
I am the author of the Dividing Sky, which just
came out this past October.
That's a young adult dystopianromance and generally I write
kind of YA sci-fi and then alsomiddle grade.
So my middle grade debut isalso coming out this April from
Freedom Fire.
That's an imprint at DisneyBooks and that is called Kaya
Morgan's crowning achievementand yeah, I know we'll get into
(03:48):
this.
But I mean, I think the coolestpart of the podcast and like
all this by far has been beingable to like go on this journey
with Beatrice and Chelsea andlike we started the podcast
before we were even agented likeany of us, so to go through
like the whole thing, you know,all the way to debuting, and now
Beatrice is going to debut andChelsea is right around the
corner.
I know, um, it's just beenreally cool to to see the whole
(04:12):
journey from start to finish, orto start from start to the next
chapter, I should say love that, love that.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
How did you guys meet , um, and what inspired you to
start the podcast?
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Wow, we met.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Who's going to go without crying?
I know.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
I was like I'm like, okay, I will go.
So we met in a Slack channelofficially through our late
friend KL Bird Kevon Laybirdfriend KL Bird Kevon Laybird and
we met through just reallywanting community.
Kl was really a big pusher ofthat and he was really like we
(04:55):
need to do something as Blackauthors to build ourselves up.
He wanted a space that we madefor ourselves and so he really
started that and we volunteeredto help and it was a really uh,
chaotic beginning because we hadno idea what we were doing we
(05:16):
had a podcast single I didn'thave a single microphone.
I didn't have.
I you know I'm not a gamer, soI also didn't have these
headphones that y'all have overthe.
I mean it was, I had to have,uh, kl.
Jill Chelsea explain a lot ofstuff to me.
I watch a lot of YouTube videosabout how to get started, uh,
(05:38):
how to set up a mic, how to likelighting.
All of this, um, we reallystarted from scratch, from like
nothing, like zero experience,from from having zero knowledge,
to really, um, relying on eachother to build each other, like
(05:58):
our confidence up, because, also, the the big part in the
beginning was does anyone evenwant to hear us talk?
To Joe's point, we're notagented.
At the time, none of us wereagented.
Kl, no, kl was agented, did he?
Yeah?
He had just got agented yeah.
(06:21):
And so we were querying, we werehustling, we were, uh, scrappy
and continued to be.
Um, so, yeah, that was.
That was the, the beginnings ofthe podcast.
It was birthed through reallywanting a community that we made
for ourselves, and we stuck byit.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
So how did you decide , like, how do you decide who
your guests are going to be andwho does the reaching out?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Yeah, that process has evolved, I think.
I think at the beginning it waslike who will talk to us?
Before we really had, you know,any sort of following, but I
feel like around season two orso, it began to become much more
intentional.
You know, we started havingspreadsheets and thinking about
what topics we wanted.
We also wanted to be reallyintentional about having a
(07:15):
really healthy mix of, you know,established published authors
and up-and-coming authors,because we wanted to keep in
mind that, you know, part of theprivilege of having a platform,
even as small as it mind, thatyou know part of the privilege
of having a platform, even assmall as it was and you know, as
it was growing, is to be ableto put people on to people that
are kind of up and coming, thatmay not have the official
accolades yet but are just asworthy of attention and are
(07:35):
doing something really cool inthe space.
So, yeah, usually, like from theoutset you know our seasons run
from like September to April orso, and so, like around
actually, we just had, you know,a few months ago, um, like the,
the conversation for the nextseason, thinking about what kind
of topics we wanted to cover,um, which ones would require or
(07:56):
like be like, enhanced by havingother guests, on which ones we
could just kind of like kiki onby ourselves, um, and and then
yeah, and then from there wekind of split it up just kind of
.
You know, if there's eightepisodes and we each take two or
three, love that, love that.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
How do you do the editing and stuff like that?
Is it the same way?
Speaker 5 (08:14):
that has also evolved .
Funny enough because I think inthe beginning, like I edited,
like a lot of the episodes, yeah, we were doing like segments
and everyone's like editingtheir own segment and then
sending it in.
Yeah, but now, like Beatricesaid, yeah it was chaotic, so we
kind of have a more uniformformat and we all kind of
produce and edit, you know,different episodes, Like we'll,
(08:38):
like you know, pick which onesthat we're going to do.
So it's like you know, we, eachof us, can kind of take the
process from beginning to likereaching out, figuring out you
know who we're going to talk to,to, like you know, scheduling
it and sending it out andpublishing it.
Yeah, Putting up the socialmedia posts, all that.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
So it's like we each own one episode, or like a
couple of episodes, but whateverones we own, we own those from
like inception to reaching outto the guests to coordinating
the questions to the whole thing.
Yeah, yes, and I really lovethat, by the way.
Yeah, it works really well.
We continue to evolve everyseason and every season we get
more efficient, we get moreorganized, so getting each of us
to be a producer of an episodewas a really good efficiency
(09:25):
step for us.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, love that um.
Is there any equipment oranything that you'd recommend to
people who are just startingout?
Speaker 5 (09:34):
oh, like the snow, snowball, like the snowball mic.
Yeah, snowball um, I have alike sony, like like over the
ear head, like a good pair ofover the ear headphones I'd I
definitely recommend those yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Oh yeah, show the snowball.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Do you have?
Can you show them Chelsea?
Speaker 7 (09:52):
Yeah, yeah, so I actually have like the and I and
I have like the pop filter sothat you know you don't hear
like the spittles and things.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
For a long time we edited in aud audacity, which is
like a free audio editingplatform, and then, as podcasts
began to be more visual, likespotify has, like basically like
a video blog feature, um, nowwe edit in canva yeah so yeah,
yeah and we were.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
We were initially audio only yeah started we only
recently became video only.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Yes, correct edit in canva the video canva does it
all love that, love that?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
how do you guys like a lot of podcasts start but then
, like beyond season four, youdon't see them?
Um, how do you guys assure thatyou guys aren't one of the ones
that will fade away and thatyou continue to work well
together?
Speaker 5 (10:47):
I would say it's a combination of things.
First, like we're legit friendsand we like love talking to
each other.
We talk like every day.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
We like to talk to each other.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
Yeah, so I think one thing that the podcast kind of
does is like it gives us achance to reconnect as authors
and friends kind of does is likeit gives us a chance to like
reconnect like as authors andfriends, and we're kind of just
doing things that actuallyinterest us, like the topics are
things that, like, we'recurious about.
We want to talk to this author,we want to, you know, maybe
meet this editor, and I thinkthat's a big part of like why
(11:19):
we're still doing it, cause, aswe continue our like author
journeys, we still have thingsthat are interesting to us and
things that we want to know moreabout and learn and we just
want to share it with, you know,our listeners and our community
.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Love that.
What was the most interestinginteraction you had, I'm sorry.
Go ahead, jill.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Oh, just one note on what Chelsea was saying.
I think we've gotten reallygood at being honest with each
other about like capacity.
Absolutely and just saying like, like I think you know we used
to do, I think every two weeksan episode, like this season was
a month, you know, once a monthbecause, uh, we knew that we
had stuff going on, like chelseahad a really busy season at her
day, at their day job, and thenI had the debut and like
everyone's got stuff we're allbusy.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
We're all so busy and that's the thing as our careers
become successful.
We will just get busier andbusier.
Yeah, that comes with theterritory.
Yeah, also.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yeah, but yeah, trying to leave space for this
always and then just being realabout when we trade off, right.
So because we have that kind offrom beginning to end episode
ownership model, we can just say, hey, like I can't do the
October episode, can you take itfor me?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
And we can kind of trade off that way make it more
sustainable for each other.
I love that.
Can you share a memorableinteraction you've had with
somebody you've?
Speaker 5 (12:33):
interviewed or with each other while podcasting.
I feel like whenever I think oflike an interaction that made
me feel like, oh yes, I'm soglad we're doing this, like when
we had Tracy Dion on thepodcast and it was just kind of
like and I'm pretty sure Tracy'slike publicist reached out to
us yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
That was such like that was part of why it was such
a big deal yeah.
Speaker 5 (12:57):
Because we were like, okay, we're reaching out to
people, we're just trying to seeyou know what sticks, but
having someone who, like we youknow we all admire like reach
out to us and be interested in,like our you know our little
podcast, it was just kind of,like you know, very memorable
interaction.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
it was a great episode too yeah, she's a really
powerful um speaker and um verykind behind the scenes.
Yes, I was gonna say the behindthe scenes.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Yes, I was going to say the behind the scenes, like
between Tracy and Karen Strong.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Karen Strong.
I was going to say Karen.
Strong who else?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah, there have been some, some authors who have
come on and then like after therecording ends, have given us
some amazing like life advice,writing advice, encouragement,
like just tea occasionally, youknow, keep going, right.
I think that's been amazing.
And then to be able to carrythose relationships you know
offline, to like differentevents and when we see them, um,
(13:49):
both on like instagram but alsoin person, it's been really
special I love that.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Um, I know you guys were talking about doing a
newsletter and a discord.
What are your visions for that?
So with the newsletter.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
I mean it's it's.
That's one of the things that,like I, I feel like I've been,
you know, writing the newsletterand trying to compile the stuff
, you know, just to kind of keeppeople a little up to date.
But right now it's kind of likejust whenever we feel like we
have like an announcement thatwe want to push out.
But I think the vision is toeventually maybe do something,
(15:54):
probably no more than quarterlyCause.
Again, we don't want to likeovercommit ourselves.
So that's basically the visionwith the newsletter basically
keeping our listeners up to datewith what's going on, and not
just the podcast, but also likeour careers and like where we're
each at.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Love that, love that.
What other advice would youhave for people who are
interested in podcasting?
Speaker 5 (16:24):
I would say talk about something that, like,
you're interested in, like I wasgonna say that outside of like
an audience, outside of likeother people's opinions, like
something that you actually careabout and you want to do the
research, to do like the work tofind out more about the topic.
Because that is what you'redoing, like you're gonna have to
like put together content soyou might as well be interested
(16:47):
in it and have it reflect.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
You know, you that's like I remember when we were
first starting out and, uh, thethere was a moment where we were
like I remember when we werefirst starting out and the there
was a moment where we were like, well, like who are we to start
a podcast?
Like what do we really have tosay?
Right, like who's going tolisten to us?
And I think you know what, likewe've talked about this, like
the three of us just reflected,you know, since then is like you
often don't realize how muchyou have to give to people,
(17:12):
right, how much do you actuallyknow about what you're talking,
about the expertise that you'veamassed, you know, over you know
, x years of even just writingas like a hobby before you're
agented.
So don't discredit.
You know, a, I think, like theactual technical expertise that
you have that you may not evenrealize you have.
But B, you know, when I was inthe querying trenches and even
on submission, like I lovedlistening to, you know, podcasts
(17:33):
that are no longer around, withauthors that were at the
similar level in their career,because I just wanted to feel
like I had like a writing friendin the room.
You know, and I think, nomatter what, like even if that
expertise is lacking or you'renot quite.
You know where you want to be,yet that's fine.
Providing community is just asimportant to help people keep
going.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Yeah, I was gonna say podcasting as community is also
really important, and whenyou're doing that podcast about
something you're passionateabout or interested in
researching more, it comes offas more authentic to your
audience and so you make betterconnections with people.
So I think that's why so manyauthors enjoy our podcast, not
(18:20):
just because we talk aboutwriting, but because we
obviously love to write.
We obviously are, you know,really working hard in this
industry and really want to makethis work and want to really
make moves.
And that level of emotionalinvestment put in by us.
(18:45):
The listeners can hear it, andthey can.
They are.
That's what they're reallyengaging with, and so you know
whether it's, you know,podcasting for authors or not.
I think that authenticity iswhat people are really looking
for and what they really respondto.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah, we don't profess to be like experts on
you know, certain topics.
We're not like going and doingresearch and, like you know,
typing up dissertations on stuff, like we just kind of come to
it with what we know and I feellike we're really honest about
you know where our expertiseends.
And then we're like and there'sprobably another author who can
talk more about you know thistopic and that's fine, but you
know we bring what we bring toit and I think part of it is
(19:23):
just like being able to hearsomeone else talk about it and
feel like you're in conversationwith them love that.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Um what hosting platform do you use we?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
use anchor spotify for podcasters.
I think it's called it wasanchor yeah and are you guys
monetized?
We are not no you can buy ourbooks.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
You could monetize us by paying her books yeah we
don't do any kind of like ads oranything.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, never for the money I guess we're here we're
here for the vibes.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
We really are like yeah, I'm just here for the
vibes, I'm here to talk aboutbooks yeah well, I put the link
for jill's book in the chat, sowe do a little bit of yeah,
please monetize me, please,somebody.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Um, you do, you know we do the social media posting,
I think, to build awareness andlike help our podcast find
listeners and find people thatcould benefit from it.
But I feel like I mean, y'allweigh in beatrice and chelsea I
feel like, um, so much of whatdrives me in the podcast is just
like curiosity and being likehow, like it's like a way to
cheat, to get like people totalk to me about stuff I want to
ask them questions about, right, it's like.
(20:34):
It's like I want to have like,uh, you know, I want to ask this
editor, I want to ask thisauthor, you know, pick their
brain on this topic and likewe'll just tell them that we
have a podcast and we'll give usan hour of their time.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Like it's great, um, that's true like, for instance,
I have my my um, my horror novelcoming out next year was done
in partnership with anintellectual property company,
and so I wanted to talk moreabout IP with authors who had
(21:06):
worked with IP companies beforealso.
So I reached out to otherauthors who I knew worked with
IP companies and said, hey,would you like to come on and
talk about this?
And they were all likeabsolutely, we would love that.
So that is honestly how it goes.
I think, oh, I'm doing thisthing that I would love to talk
about or that I'm interested in,like we're doing one with like
(21:29):
romance that we haven't done,like, I think, a bunch of
romance stuff.
But we were like you know, wereally want to talk about Black
romance.
We really want to talk like.
I think it's just, what are weinterested in?
What are we like?
What are we?
And I think the fact that we'reinterested in it is indicative
of its value for authors atlarge.
(21:50):
Just because I think we allcycle through the same kinds of
like could I do this?
Could I do that?
Maybe I should research thismore, maybe what is that like?
Every time we see something inpublishers marketplace or we see
an announcement for something,I'm oftentimes like oh, I've
never thought about that genrebefore, I've never thought about
(22:11):
that time period before and Iwould love to talk to that
author, talk to other authorswho write historical fiction in
that place, or whatever.
I really get inspired to askquestions from everywhere.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
And Beatrice, your IP is with Electric Postcard right
.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
It is yes.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
My debut is with electric postcard too, for real.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
I was listening to you guys as ip episode yo,
that's cool and that's cool, youknow, and I and I want to have
another, and I want to haveanother ip episode because I I
want to also talk about see thisis good, because I love to talk
about the entire process oflike how you got started, why
you did it, and then also on theback end of like how editing
(22:59):
was for you, how like you know,that kind of stuff is the stuff
that people don't really hearabout.
This is really, you know, evenon book tours, even in book
signings, authors don't reallytalk about their like
nitty-gritty.
I was, I was in the doc in line.
(23:19):
Comments like that kind of likeserve that line of deep level
of like authoring.
That really only happens whenyou get a bunch of authors in
conversation with each other forthat specific purpose for an
hour, for an hour of our timetalking about this specific
thing, because otherwise, alsoas creatives, we have a lot in
(23:44):
our minds and so I think this isalso a good opportunity for us
to hone in on a very specificinterest of ours for an hour or
so and just have the time toreally just go dive really deep
into something.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I love that.
Do you think you guys in thefuture would collaborate on like
novels or writing as well?
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
I would love to.
It's so funny how we writedifferent genres and age
categories but like we, we eachdo multiple things but they're
like there's almost like nooverlap.
I think Chelsea and I have alittle bit like the dystopian
yeah, kind of area but, um, alot of what Chelsea writes is
like fantasy too.
so it's kind of like we eachhave our pockets.
We've also, we've done like youknow, we've been like cpus and
(24:30):
betas for each other, um, andlike each other's work, and I
think that was part of how wefirst kind of I know.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
I love your writing.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Yes, absolutely, it's so cool that we all have such
different writing styles and inthose writing styles we write
very different genres, differenttypes of stories.
So, honestly, the three of ushas we have such a diverse like
list of things.
In the next like five years,when all of our stuff comes out,
(25:03):
it will be a just an array ofgenres, age categories.
I cannot wait for my afferentshelf, my like, I mean it's
really, really, really it'simpressive how diverse our
interests are and our researchtastes are.
It's really interesting, it'sreally cool.
(25:23):
But I think that they arereally that could be really
complimentary in some kind oflike anthology of sorts.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
Yeah, I was thinking the.
Afronauts anthology Absolutelylike anthology of sorts.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Yeah, I was thinking the Afro-Nazi anthology.
Absolutely, that would bereally really complimentary with
each other to have, like mydeep, dark, spooky horror stuff
with a dystopian romance or likewhatever, like the.
Even though they are very, verydifferent, I think that is what
makes them, that's what makesthem go well together in
something like an anthology,because it would give the reader
(25:54):
a breadth of things to read.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I love that.
Tell me a little bit about yourpublishing journey, if you
don't mind, Beatrice, because Ihaven't heard your story before.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
I was querying for years and years and years.
And then I applied to ElectricPostcard, on recommendation from
our late friend KL, and I gotin and then I got a deal.
(26:30):
Through that and through thatdeal, I made a bunch of
connections and I said and thisis why I say IP work, the real
heavy lifting it does for yourcareer is the connections you
make along the way with theeditors, with the marketers,
(26:52):
with the agents you're workingwith whomever.
And so through thoseconnections, I got a referral
for an agent, several agents.
I actually got, like, I think,three or four referrals to three
or four different agents andfinally one stuck, one really.
We clicked, we talked and itwas.
(27:14):
It just really worked reallywell.
And so now I'm agented by, I'm aclient of, chelsea Hensley at
Madwoman Literary and we arehaving a blast, having a blast,
(27:38):
are having a blast having ablast.
I have, uh, like I said, onedeal announced and then we're
going, I'm going on submissionwith three, three additional
ones in the coming year, and so,um, yeah, I am working all of
the time writing, writing,writing, writing, writing,
writing, writing.
Like I said, I've got a horror,I've got a picture book, I'm
also doing middle grade I'mdoing YA fiction, nonfiction.
(28:01):
I have eclectic tastes.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Love that, Love that Chelsea.
Can we hear your agent journeyand how you got your agent?
Speaker 5 (28:11):
Oh sure, so you know, like, like authors do, queried
for years and years um, I thinkI originally queried with like a
ya dystopian kind of story,like a plague dirt.
Speaker 7 (28:24):
No, it was a plague.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
Yeah, it was like a disease story and I was and I
was querying during the pandemicand it wasn't really hitting
during that time.
So I decided to start on afantasy.
I had never written anythingfantasy.
I was like I don't even know ifI can build a world, but hey,
let's see, I'm just curious.
(28:46):
So I wrote a YA fantasy and Iactually really like fell in
love with fantasy, like I'vealways loved reading fantasy but
like to write it.
I really fell in love with thatprocess and I queried and I
even though the draft was notready to be queried, if I'm
honest, I actually got likemultiple full requests and I was
(29:08):
like, oh, there's actuallysomething here.
So when I knew that the draftneeds some work, I did that and
I think I did some pitchcontests and that's how I kind
of got the attention of my agentnow and they requested a revise
and resubmit from like a newversion of the story.
So I revised it, sent it out tobeta readers Jill's one and I
(29:33):
got some great feedback.
And then, when I sent out thatrise and resubmit, sarah Fisk at
Tobias, like they loved it andthey made an offer and you know
I'm really happy.
I'm working on edits for itright now and I don't know.
It was just one of those thingswhere it's like I got a lot of
(29:54):
like I would say like greenlights, like things that were
like okay, a lot.
You know, I sent out that firstbatch of queries and like I got
some full requests and peopleare people kept saying like, oh,
I love this so much.
But so I knew I was likegetting quote close with the
querying process.
So when Sarah offered it waskind of like I was feeling like
(30:15):
I was ready at that point.
So it's been exciting.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
You were all ready at that point.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
I love that I could relate to your play.
During the pandemic I did thesame thing.
I had a story with witches anda play and nobody bit and I'm
like why?
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (30:29):
You know, I actually got a full request, a few full
requests for that one.
I was a little surprised, butit was like, not quite.
That too depressing.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Yeah, or timing.
You couldn't have planned that.
You couldn't have planned it.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
You know, yeah, very true, very true.
Jill, can you tell us yourjourney?
I know we heard a little bitbefore, but everybody might not
have been here the last time youvisited.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Yeah, so let's see.
So it took me six years tofinish the first draft of my,
the first book I ever wrote.
That was an adult paralleluniverses story and I queried
for that was like 2020.
Yeah, but when I was meetingChelsea and Beatrice, I queried
for about six months but I feltlike I wasn't executing on the
(31:14):
promise of the premise and likedelivering on that, and so I was
applying.
I applied to like pitch wars.
I applied to a few differentmentorship programs and I ended
up applying to Diana Foe, who isan editor at Erewhon now.
She was at four back then.
Now she's she's one of Hugo asan editor.
She had a contest that fall thatwas for black authors of
speculative fiction and the ideawas that you would submit your
(31:36):
manuscript and then she wouldpick a winner and if she picked
you, then she would spend a fullyear giving you a developmental
edit.
So, like the whole, do themanuscript, give you a whole
edit letter, you go back andrevise, give it back to her.
She'd give you a few moretweaks and then you'd be able to
(32:01):
go query it broadly but also toa handful of agents that kind
of wanted a first look at thatmanuscript.
I finished that draft myyoungest was like three months
old and I was like just typingin, like 4 am in the morning was
on my phone and it wasgobbledygook.
But the deadline came and I waslike, ok, I'm just going to
send it out, I'm going to fixthe grammar and go.
And then a few months later gotthe email that I won, which was
incredible.
And, diana, you know, that wasmy first edit letter, my first
experience working with like apublishing professional.
(32:22):
She really, you know, taught mewhat it was like to revise, you
know, at a professional level,and also gave me permission to
do a lot of things, you know, inthe genre of, like adult sci
fifi that I hadn't given myselfpermission to do, and get a
little bit darker with it.
So I revised that and thensubmitted it or went out to
submission.
On querying again, and my agent,jen Azantian, was on the short
(32:44):
list of those agents.
And it's funny because Jen isalmost never open to queries
like just brought, likegenerally open.
You either have to, you know,be part of the contest like this
that she's participating in oryou have to have something on
her manuscript wish list.
And a year prior, when I hadbeen querying just on my own, um
, my friend texted me at like 10o'clock at night and was like,
(33:05):
oh my gosh, like janice antionjust posted this thing, it's
exactly what you wrote.
And it was something about likeI often, I often like wonder
about the alternate universeversions of myself and hope that
they're doing okay.
I've had a really weird dreamabout an alternate universe
version of myself.
If you have something like this, please send it to me.
And I responded to her tweetand I was like I have exactly
this.
And so I ended up pulling thatquery because I wanted to revise
(33:29):
with Diana.
But when I came back a yearlater, she was like I remember
you and we this kind of likefull circle connection.
Um, so I got my agent that wayand then we went on submission
with that parallel universe'sstory and it died on sub after
about a year, uh, but while itwas on sub, I spent three months
and drafted the book that endedup being my debut, the biting
spec.
Uh, so we sold that to joyrevolution, which is an imprint
(33:50):
at penguin random House, whichis founded.
Girl Revolution is an imprintfounded by Nicola and David Yoon
and it's dedicated to lovestories written by and starring
authors of people of color.
So mine is their first likesci-fi acquisition and that's
been really fun.
So the Biting Side came out.
And then I got another dealwith Disney for the middle grade
(34:12):
books and then I have anotherbook for Evolution coming out
next fall and that's me, love it, love it, love it.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I am my story was kind of like you guys, how you
were saying you started yourpodcast to reach out to people
you were curious about.
That's kind of how I starteddoing like author interviews and
stuff.
So I reached out to DonnellClayton and I was doing an
interview with her and I wastalking about electric.
Well, electric postcard didn'texist.
Then it was just cake.
And I was talking to her abouther company and she was talking
about how she was trying to, youknow, create a gateway for
(34:41):
people to get into the industryand stuff.
So at the end of the interviewI did something I never do and I
, you know, shoot your shot.
I did.
I was like, hey, all right.
She was like send me a sample.
And I did, yeah, and then shecalled me back in 15 minutes.
She's like I love it, let'swork.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
And then I was like, yay nice, you gotta shoot your
shot always always, alwaysalways love it, love it, love it
um.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Loved hearing your stories, loved learning from you
guys there um any other adviceyou want to offer to authors or
podcasters or anybody listening.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
I would say, like, just try stuff.
Like even if it doesn't workout like it's fine, just try it.
Like, just go out there, giveit a shot, like with querying,
with story ideas, with podcasts,any kind of content that you're
curious in creating.
I think if you, you mightdiscover something that, like
you didn't think that you coulddo, like I didn't think that I
(35:37):
could do a podcast, like I waslike maybe behind the scenes,
like maybe not, you know, talkabout things in front of a
camera, but I've really enjoyedthe process and to me, I feel
like I've grown out of mycomfort zone and I'm really
happy that like did it.
I remember the night like wheneveryone was talking about
(35:58):
officially doing the podcast, Itold my husband should I, should
I do that?
Like I don't know that doesn'tsound like something I do, but
something about it it's likeappealing to me and he was so
infectious and and I did it'slike such a great, like
life-altering decision reallygirl.
Speaker 4 (36:15):
I, yes, I think the they, you hear it all the time
but community really is soimportant and, um, in the
publishing industry, where itcan oftentimes feel so lonely as
authors because we'reoftentimes writing by ourselves
and it can feel like no one elseis going through this thing.
No one else knows the troubleI've seen, um, but it's not
(36:42):
until you're with other authorsthat you realize oh, everyone is
feeling this way or is feelingsimilar to this.
I'm not the only one who hasthought, oh, this is actually
not a productive way to go aboutquerying, or like, I wish
agents did this differently.
Everyone is thinking thatYou're not alone.
Everyone is thinking queryingis inefficient, or being on
(37:07):
submission is inefficient, or X,y and Z is too difficult, or
blah, blah, blah.
Like this is something that Ipromise you.
Other authors are constantlythinking about and want to like
talk to you about it.
It is an important part ofcommunity, like, even if it is
(37:27):
trauma bonding, even if it isjust like saying, even if it is
just like this thing happenedand I hate that, and blah blah,
even just like being reallyvulnerable with someone, um,
it's really important and Ithink that is a big part of our
(37:48):
success is that we werevulnerable with each other, with
like.
These are my dreams.
This is what I would like to do.
Let's have someone on to talkabout that.
There is a vulnerability therethat really comes that I think
can be looked over, but it'sreally important that, like I
(38:09):
want to be a horror.
You know, my one of my dreamsis that I want to own a horror
imprint and along the way, Iwant to have several horror
editors on.
I want to have other imprintowners on.
I want to have you know, x, yand Z.
And this is part vulnerability,part ego, maybe of like.
(38:32):
I would say part manifestation,part manifestation like I'm I'm
gonna get this done and, uh,this podcast is a really, it's a
really um fun tool for um, forknowledge and community love
that, love that.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
When you get that horror imprint, let me know and
whip up something scary.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
I will, I will, I'll let me know.
And I'll whip up somethingscary.
I will, I'll let you know.
Sorry, I can't really be onaudio right now.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
But I wanted to ask yeah, how big of a learning
curve is the editing andplatform and all of that?
Might've missed this at thebeginning of Zoom.
That's real.
Yeah, I think it was fine.
You know, we, we jumped rightin, I think.
I think anchor, you know,spotify for podcasters makes it
really easy to get started.
Um, you know, the onboardingprocess is really
straightforward.
Um, we, what else?
(39:23):
Like like buying a microphone,like even that is like you know
it helps, but it's not like arequirement to get started.
Um, and then editing yeah, youcan do canva or yeah, audacity
is also free and they eat, likethis very straightforward, just
like editing.
It's pretty much like what youwould be used to doing in like
tiktok claire.
So like it's verystraightforward.
I think it's not complicated atall.
It's like scheduling a post.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
It's like it's super easy yeah, I still can't figure
out how to schedule an instagrampost can you schedule instagram
posts?
Speaker 4 (39:53):
I think you can, yeah , yeah, I don't, I don't be
knowing that kind of stuff.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
I have to know.
I felt like I do all my stufflater in the night and then I
scheduled it for the nextmorning because, yeah, that's
real you can see and you see,you see our different working
styles in action.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
she's just like I don't, I don't want to know, I'm
not going to do that.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Any more questions?
I'm sorry, any more questions.
Speaker 6 (40:21):
I have a question.
I'm very excited for all yourbooks.
I hope we get titles after thiszoom meeting.
No-transcript.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
That's a great question.
I want to say no, but I will saythat I am more aware of what I
say.
(41:11):
Taught me also is how much of abusiness this is and that
although this is, you know, mylife stream I'm an artist, I'm a
poet, etc.
I do have to like put on my, myadult pants and recognize that
this is a business call, this isa business you know, etc.
And so that that part um is whyI'm more aware of what I'm
(41:33):
saying on the podcast, because Ihave to be aware this is I'm
speaking as um, an author, butalso as the client, as a client,
as someone who has contractswith a company who very well
could take away this book dealfrom me if X, y and Z.
And so I have to be aware ofthat.
(41:54):
It's not like I censor myselfnecessarily, but it's just more
so of I'm not going to saysomething super outlandish,
because I like having my job andmoney, and that is something,
honestly, that you have to keepin mind that like, listen, I'm
(42:17):
here for this is my job and, atthe end of the day, I need this
job, and so that's very honest,yeah, and I think even before.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
I mean, like you know , we we were just getting on the
podcast to chat, but we alsoknow that you know it's, it's a,
it's a positioning and likemarketing tool and if there's an
agent who's interested intaking you on as a client, one
of the first things they'regoing to do is check out your
social media and check and theydid platforms and they did yeah,
they did they, and they told usthat they did that yeah, yeah.
(42:48):
So, like you, you have to beaware of that.
You know you're not just liketalking into a vacuum, like
that's what the group chat isfor, if you want to say
something.
That's kind of like you know yesyes, but yeah, I think I think
all of us kind of likeunderstood that from the jump
and we're just kind of like, youknow we can talk and be
authentic about things but also,you know, know, be respectful
and professional and know thatthis is the business.
I think too, you know, on theother side of being agented and
(43:11):
getting a book deal, you can seebehind the curtain a little bit
and understand that some of thethings that you might have
thought were like a hugeinjustice are just like the way
the machine works and it's notnecessarily any one person
having it out for anybody else,right.
You know things that a lessseasoned author might take
personally.
Somebody who's been through it,you know, once or twice says
like that's just kind of the waythe job goes, yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
I want to.
I want to emphasize the peoplelooking for you, Because my
agent, when I was on the callwith her the first time we ever
talked, she said I listened toyour podcast, I really enjoyed
it, and I had no idea that Inever I never discussed my
podcast with her, I nevermentioned it.
But she looked me up.
(44:01):
She looked up the podcast, mysocial media et cetera, and she
told me I listened to severalepisodes.
You like blah, blah, blah andso you have to also be aware of
that.
I went to New York last monthwith my picture book publisher
and I had someone come up to meand say, oh, I love your podcast
, blah, blah, blah.
(44:21):
And I was like, oh, wow, Thankyou it's public, thank you, and
it was, it's public.
You, you're right, you, you canlisten.
Uh, I forget um, and so that is.
Those are always good remindersof, like you know, we are not
talking.
This is in a vacuum.
People are listening to us umconsistently regularly.
(44:43):
Also we have like regularlisteners, which is really cool,
um, but it's also um aresponsibility, because also a
lot of our listeners are umblack authors, um black
unagented authors, um who, andthat is you know, also there is
responsibility that comes withthat also to be, you know, a
(45:06):
good, a good resource for them.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
And that you guys are .
You're very informative.
One of my favorite episodes isthe one where you guys were
talking about how theymistreated poor Bonnie Bennett.
Speaker 5 (45:23):
That was a great one.
Speaker 4 (45:26):
And that was because I wanted to talk about Bonnie
Bennett.
That's true.
Speaker 5 (45:30):
Beatrice was like I want like this whole
conversation and we had it andit was great.
Speaker 4 (45:36):
I did.
I said that.
I said, listen, I want to talkabout it, I have a lot to say
and I still do and I always will.
And you know, and that's reallya really good representation of
the podcast, because it reallyis just me being fired up about
something and be like I want totalk about this for 45 minutes
and Jill and Chelsea being likeyes, OK, yes.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
So what I love about it is what I love about it is
how you connected it to crap.
So you're not just talkingabout it like a fan venting, but
you're talking about it like afan venting, but then you bring
it back to the writing and whatworks and what didn't for you
and that was what you know madeit so enjoyable for me.
I'm glad I worked hard on that.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 4 (46:19):
That episode was originally a.
I did a Voodoo Knots class onSouthern Gothic television and
so I adapted that for thepodcast for um bonnie bennett
interview with the vampire, allof that.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
So thank you, I really appreciate that yep, hey
mo, hey, did you have anyquestions?
Speaker 7 (46:41):
um, well, I've had a comment.
I thought it was veryinteresting when Jill talked
about how she had a piece thatsort of didn't go anywhere, or
she was able to pull out a piece, you know, from a year later
where we leave them half sitting.
(47:05):
Um, or sometimes we feel like,oh well, not we.
I like oh well, uh, I, this is.
This is horribly written.
I'm not going to do anythingwith this and throw it away and
like you know, just I thoughtthat was very interesting that,
like you know, here's thisopportunity and you're like oh,
I got this whole piece already,not just like I started it, but
(47:27):
oh, yeah, I have this, this iswritten.
So I, you know, that wasdefinitely stood out for me to
like keep those things, you know.
Yeah, absolutely.
Like when?
What's what's going to come ofit?
You know, and even if it's justsitting in my drive, you know,
you know, for for a decade, youknow, the moment I throw it away
(47:47):
is probably the time I'm goingto get a Absolutely no,
definitely definitely keep allof that I will actually give you
an example.
Speaker 4 (47:55):
My agent I had a book that I shelved almost a decade
ago now, and a couple of weeksago my agent said that she was
talking to an editor who wasinterested in that genre, and so
she asked me do you haveanything in that genre?
And it's a high fantasy?
And I was like yes, and I waslike yeah, but I haven't touched
(48:18):
it in a decade.
I showed her the pitch and alittle bit of the synopsis and
she was like I love this, let'stry and go out with this.
And this is something Like Ilove this, let's try and go out
with this.
And this is something, again, Ihave not touched in many, many
years.
And I'm now getting to revisitthis story.
It's really exciting and had I,you know, had I, like, thrown
(48:44):
it away or like whatever,forgotten about it, I wouldn't
have had this opportunity.
But no, keep all of yourprojects, remember them, keep,
hoard them like gold, becauseyou never you really never know
what little piece of a projectyou might could fit into another
project or you know what kindof thing you can repurpose later
.
You never know.
(49:05):
I really recommend keepingeverything, and I am a big keep
it.
You never know, you never know.
Speaker 7 (49:16):
My problem is, like you know, somewhere in my 40s I
became a minimalist and so Istill sort of have that
mentality like, oh, haven't wornit, haven't used it, haven't
let it go, and so haven't timeto let it go, and so I tend to
sort of like let these things goso that I won't accumulate all
through all this stuff.
So I definitely have to likeswitch my mentality.
When it comes to the rain, it'slike it's okay to hoard, you
(49:39):
can emotionally, let it go right.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
Emotionally let it go , but keep it in your drive yeah
, yeah, everything has its place, yeah so just make a place for
it.
Speaker 7 (49:50):
And then also, you know I know you guys said that
you had that you guys cametogether as the podcast works
really well because you guyswere friends before you ventured
into that project.
How did I mean, did you guysmeet through writing?
Did you guys meet, like, hadyou just school?
(50:12):
Like how did your relationshipsform?
I said because one of thethings that for myself and my
experience is this you know,it's like we all have different
tribes, right, you know.
So I actually went to an MFAprogram because I wanted to
build a tribe of writers and soKiana and I were talking about
this a little earlier.
(50:32):
You know, it was sort of likeyou don't want to force
relationships, but you want thembecause that's part of what
you're here for and you mayparticularly want.
You know, you just want to try.
You want to try.
So, like, how did thatrelationship form for you guys?
Speaker 5 (50:51):
So I know, for me, kale had, like the our late
friend Kale Bird had a writer'sgroup already and he found me on
Twitter.
I was participating in a pitchcontest and he was like I love
your pitch, I have this group,like come join, and I was like
who is this?
But I joined and it was greatand to me it's kind of like, I
(51:12):
think, also letting yourself beopen to things that you might
not necessarily think you'd beinterested in.
You can always like leave agroup.
You know if you join in it'snot quite a right fit, but it
was a great group.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
And I'm glad to have met my co-hosts, yeah, and there
were like 40 something authorsin there.
I mean, there were a lot of usin there and I think it just
kind of happened, naturally,where, you know, a small cluster
of us began to kind of speak upa little bit more or had
different, had similar things tosay or, you know, got into you
know innocent debates aboutcraft stuff, right, and kind of
like you know kind of to take it, take it further and have more
of a discussion.
And then someone was like hey,like we should have these
(51:51):
conversations in front of otherpeople.
Speaker 5 (51:53):
Yeah, there's value here.
Sometimes it was like a callout for everyone in the group.
Speaker 4 (51:59):
I think he I think he was like hey, does anyone want
to join me?
And we were among those thatwere like, and so, um, so we
were already a part of thewriting the group, the writers
group, and then, within thegroup, we were probably maybe
the chattier ones and so we werelike let's chat in a mic, yes,
(52:22):
um, yeah, I, and I started, Ijoined the writers group through
um kl had a post on twitter andhe said I'm starting a writers
group for black writers.
And I reached out to him and Iwas like I want to join, can I
send me a link please?
(52:42):
And he was like and I thinkthat was also part, probably why
, like, I have all that.
Yeah, be bold, guys, be bold.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
I really do.
Speaker 4 (52:53):
You never know.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah, love that.
Any more questions, you guys?
Well then, I guess that meansyou guys are super duper
thorough.
Thank you so much for stoppingby.
Uh, we learned a lot, we had alot of fun.
It was a great conversation andI appreciate you guys.
(53:18):
And again, jill's link is inthe chat, so if you want to
scroll up, you can link thedividing sky.
Speaker 3 (53:25):
Thanks for having me.
I'll uh, I'll throw my middlegrade in there too.
Speaker 4 (53:28):
Okay, I put my um my handle for instagram.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
I'm most um active on instagram, so yeah, okay, same
love it, love it, love it thanks, jd.
Speaker 8 (53:44):
That wraps up today's craft Chat Chronicles with JD
Mayer.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
jdmayercom.
That's jdmayercom.
(54:04):
While you're there, join JD'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
Join the conversation andembark on a new chapter in your
(00:26):
writing journey.
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
jdmyallcom.
That's jdmyallcom.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
In season two, episode six of Craft Chat
Chronicles, we talk to theaward-winning crew of the Afro
Knots podcast.
That's Jill Tu, author of theDividing Sky, chelsea Gayden and
Beatrice Winifred Eicher.
They talk about theirpodcasting and writing journey,
(00:59):
about using a podcast as asource of networking and
information and a source ofmarketing your books, and they
give tips for aspiring authorsand podcasters.
So it's a great conversation.
I hope you enjoy it.
Let's get chatty.
This is season two, episode sixof craft chat chronicles.
Welcome ladies, welcomeeverybody.
(01:21):
Um, you guys want to tell us alittle more about yourselves.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, Beatrice, you want to go first.
Speaker 4 (01:29):
Sure, so my name is Beatrice, my pronouns are they,
them, and I am originally fromKnoxville, tennessee.
I write a lot of SouthernGothic, a lot of horror, a lot
(01:49):
of dark stuff.
That is my, uh, my, comfort.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
Um been doing this podcast, the afternoon's podcast
with my friends jill andchelsea for three, four years
now.
A minute it's been.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
A minute it's been a minute, um, and it has been
really, really powerful, reallypowerful experience.
And yeah, I have a book comingout next fall, my adult horror
debut.
It's called I'll Make aSpectacle of you.
And then I have a picture bookcoming out in spring 2026 called
(02:23):
Charlie's Honky Tonk Missions,about Charlie Pride, america's
first Black country superstar.
So that's me and I'll hand itover to Chelsea.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
Sure.
So I'm Chelsea Gayden pronounshe, they and so I recently got
agented and I would really likebasically thank the podcast for
like helping make that happen,because I think I was really
like lost before.
I found like this group.
I was, like you know, writingbut didn't really know like what
(02:55):
direction, querying with noresults.
But I don't know, meeting thesepeople and having them push me
and meeting other authors, likeit really I don't know, got me
to a new place where I feel likeI don't know really happy about
the direction I'm going in andI write YA, fantasy and sci-fi
(03:19):
and I have a book hopefullygoing on submission early in
next year Yay, say it a book,hopefully going on submission
early in next year Yay Say, andI'm Jill Tu.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
I am the author of the Dividing Sky, which just
came out this past October.
That's a young adult dystopianromance and generally I write
kind of YA sci-fi and then alsomiddle grade.
So my middle grade debut isalso coming out this April from
Freedom Fire.
That's an imprint at DisneyBooks and that is called Kaya
Morgan's crowning achievementand yeah, I know we'll get into
(03:48):
this.
But I mean, I think the coolestpart of the podcast and like
all this by far has been beingable to like go on this journey
with Beatrice and Chelsea andlike we started the podcast
before we were even agented likeany of us, so to go through
like the whole thing, you know,all the way to debuting, and now
Beatrice is going to debut andChelsea is right around the
corner.
I know, um, it's just beenreally cool to to see the whole
(04:12):
journey from start to finish, orto start from start to the next
chapter, I should say love that, love that.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
How did you guys meet , um, and what inspired you to
start the podcast?
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Wow, we met.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Who's going to go without crying?
I know.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
I was like I'm like, okay, I will go.
So we met in a Slack channelofficially through our late
friend KL Bird Kevon Laybirdfriend KL Bird Kevon Laybird and
we met through just reallywanting community.
Kl was really a big pusher ofthat and he was really like we
(04:55):
need to do something as Blackauthors to build ourselves up.
He wanted a space that we madefor ourselves and so he really
started that and we volunteeredto help and it was a really uh,
chaotic beginning because we hadno idea what we were doing we
(05:16):
had a podcast single I didn'thave a single microphone.
I didn't have.
I you know I'm not a gamer, soI also didn't have these
headphones that y'all have overthe.
I mean it was, I had to have,uh, kl.
Jill Chelsea explain a lot ofstuff to me.
I watch a lot of YouTube videosabout how to get started, uh,
(05:38):
how to set up a mic, how to likelighting.
All of this, um, we reallystarted from scratch, from like
nothing, like zero experience,from from having zero knowledge,
to really, um, relying on eachother to build each other, like
(05:58):
our confidence up, because, also, the the big part in the
beginning was does anyone evenwant to hear us talk?
To Joe's point, we're notagented.
At the time, none of us wereagented.
Kl, no, kl was agented, did he?
Yeah?
He had just got agented yeah.
(06:21):
And so we were querying, we werehustling, we were, uh, scrappy
and continued to be.
Um, so, yeah, that was.
That was the, the beginnings ofthe podcast.
It was birthed through reallywanting a community that we made
for ourselves, and we stuck byit.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
So how did you decide , like, how do you decide who
your guests are going to be andwho does the reaching out?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Yeah, that process has evolved, I think.
I think at the beginning it waslike who will talk to us?
Before we really had, you know,any sort of following, but I
feel like around season two orso, it began to become much more
intentional.
You know, we started havingspreadsheets and thinking about
what topics we wanted.
We also wanted to be reallyintentional about having a
(07:15):
really healthy mix of, you know,established published authors
and up-and-coming authors,because we wanted to keep in
mind that, you know, part of theprivilege of having a platform,
even as small as it mind, thatyou know part of the privilege
of having a platform, even assmall as it was and you know, as
it was growing, is to be ableto put people on to people that
are kind of up and coming, thatmay not have the official
accolades yet but are just asworthy of attention and are
(07:35):
doing something really cool inthe space.
So, yeah, usually, like from theoutset you know our seasons run
from like September to April orso, and so, like around
actually, we just had, you know,a few months ago, um, like the,
the conversation for the nextseason, thinking about what kind
of topics we wanted to cover,um, which ones would require or
(07:56):
like be like, enhanced by havingother guests, on which ones we
could just kind of like kiki onby ourselves, um, and and then
yeah, and then from there wekind of split it up just kind of
.
You know, if there's eightepisodes and we each take two or
three, love that, love that.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
How do you do the editing and stuff like that?
Is it the same way?
Speaker 5 (08:14):
that has also evolved .
Funny enough because I think inthe beginning, like I edited,
like a lot of the episodes, yeah, we were doing like segments
and everyone's like editingtheir own segment and then
sending it in.
Yeah, but now, like Beatricesaid, yeah it was chaotic, so we
kind of have a more uniformformat and we all kind of
produce and edit, you know,different episodes, Like we'll,
(08:38):
like you know, pick which onesthat we're going to do.
So it's like you know, we, eachof us, can kind of take the
process from beginning to likereaching out, figuring out you
know who we're going to talk to,to, like you know, scheduling
it and sending it out andpublishing it.
Yeah, Putting up the socialmedia posts, all that.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
So it's like we each own one episode, or like a
couple of episodes, but whateverones we own, we own those from
like inception to reaching outto the guests to coordinating
the questions to the whole thing.
Yeah, yes, and I really lovethat, by the way.
Yeah, it works really well.
We continue to evolve everyseason and every season we get
more efficient, we get moreorganized, so getting each of us
to be a producer of an episodewas a really good efficiency
(09:25):
step for us.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, love that um.
Is there any equipment oranything that you'd recommend to
people who are just startingout?
Speaker 5 (09:34):
oh, like the snow, snowball, like the snowball mic.
Yeah, snowball um, I have alike sony, like like over the
ear head, like a good pair ofover the ear headphones I'd I
definitely recommend those yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Oh yeah, show the snowball.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Do you have?
Can you show them Chelsea?
Speaker 7 (09:52):
Yeah, yeah, so I actually have like the and I and
I have like the pop filter sothat you know you don't hear
like the spittles and things.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
For a long time we edited in aud audacity, which is
like a free audio editingplatform, and then, as podcasts
began to be more visual, likespotify has, like basically like
a video blog feature, um, nowwe edit in canva yeah so yeah,
yeah and we were.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
We were initially audio only yeah started we only
recently became video only.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Yes, correct edit in canva the video canva does it
all love that, love that?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
how do you guys like a lot of podcasts start but then
, like beyond season four, youdon't see them?
Um, how do you guys assure thatyou guys aren't one of the ones
that will fade away and thatyou continue to work well
together?
Speaker 5 (10:47):
I would say it's a combination of things.
First, like we're legit friendsand we like love talking to
each other.
We talk like every day.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
We like to talk to each other.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
Yeah, so I think one thing that the podcast kind of
does is like it gives us achance to reconnect as authors
and friends kind of does is likeit gives us a chance to like
reconnect like as authors andfriends, and we're kind of just
doing things that actuallyinterest us, like the topics are
things that, like, we'recurious about.
We want to talk to this author,we want to, you know, maybe
meet this editor, and I thinkthat's a big part of like why
(11:19):
we're still doing it, cause, aswe continue our like author
journeys, we still have thingsthat are interesting to us and
things that we want to know moreabout and learn and we just
want to share it with, you know,our listeners and our community
.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Love that.
What was the most interestinginteraction you had, I'm sorry.
Go ahead, jill.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Oh, just one note on what Chelsea was saying.
I think we've gotten reallygood at being honest with each
other about like capacity.
Absolutely and just saying like, like I think you know we used
to do, I think every two weeksan episode, like this season was
a month, you know, once a monthbecause, uh, we knew that we
had stuff going on, like chelseahad a really busy season at her
day, at their day job, and thenI had the debut and like
everyone's got stuff we're allbusy.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
We're all so busy and that's the thing as our careers
become successful.
We will just get busier andbusier.
Yeah, that comes with theterritory.
Yeah, also.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yeah, but yeah, trying to leave space for this
always and then just being realabout when we trade off, right.
So because we have that kind offrom beginning to end episode
ownership model, we can just say, hey, like I can't do the
October episode, can you take itfor me?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
And we can kind of trade off that way make it more
sustainable for each other.
I love that.
Can you share a memorableinteraction you've had with
somebody you've?
Speaker 5 (12:33):
interviewed or with each other while podcasting.
I feel like whenever I think oflike an interaction that made
me feel like, oh yes, I'm soglad we're doing this, like when
we had Tracy Dion on thepodcast and it was just kind of
like and I'm pretty sure Tracy'slike publicist reached out to
us yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
That was such like that was part of why it was such
a big deal yeah.
Speaker 5 (12:57):
Because we were like, okay, we're reaching out to
people, we're just trying to seeyou know what sticks, but
having someone who, like we youknow we all admire like reach
out to us and be interested in,like our you know our little
podcast, it was just kind of,like you know, very memorable
interaction.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
it was a great episode too yeah, she's a really
powerful um speaker and um verykind behind the scenes.
Yes, I was gonna say the behindthe scenes.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Yes, I was going to say the behind the scenes, like
between Tracy and Karen Strong.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
Karen Strong.
I was going to say Karen.
Strong who else?
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah, there have been some, some authors who have
come on and then like after therecording ends, have given us
some amazing like life advice,writing advice, encouragement,
like just tea occasionally, youknow, keep going, right.
I think that's been amazing.
And then to be able to carrythose relationships you know
offline, to like differentevents and when we see them, um,
(13:49):
both on like instagram but alsoin person, it's been really
special I love that.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Um, I know you guys were talking about doing a
newsletter and a discord.
What are your visions for that?
So with the newsletter.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
I mean it's it's.
That's one of the things that,like I, I feel like I've been,
you know, writing the newsletterand trying to compile the stuff
, you know, just to kind of keeppeople a little up to date.
But right now it's kind of likejust whenever we feel like we
have like an announcement thatwe want to push out.
But I think the vision is toeventually maybe do something,
(15:54):
probably no more than quarterlyCause.
Again, we don't want to likeovercommit ourselves.
So that's basically the visionwith the newsletter basically
keeping our listeners up to datewith what's going on, and not
just the podcast, but also likeour careers and like where we're
each at.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Love that, love that.
What other advice would youhave for people who are
interested in podcasting?
Speaker 5 (16:24):
I would say talk about something that, like,
you're interested in, like I wasgonna say that outside of like
an audience, outside of likeother people's opinions, like
something that you actually careabout and you want to do the
research, to do like the work tofind out more about the topic.
Because that is what you'redoing, like you're gonna have to
like put together content soyou might as well be interested
(16:47):
in it and have it reflect.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
You know, you that's like I remember when we were
first starting out and, uh, thethere was a moment where we were
like I remember when we werefirst starting out and the there
was a moment where we were like, well, like who are we to start
a podcast?
Like what do we really have tosay?
Right, like who's going tolisten to us?
And I think you know what, likewe've talked about this, like
the three of us just reflected,you know, since then is like you
often don't realize how muchyou have to give to people,
(17:12):
right, how much do you actuallyknow about what you're talking,
about the expertise that you'veamassed, you know, over you know
, x years of even just writingas like a hobby before you're
agented.
So don't discredit.
You know, a, I think, like theactual technical expertise that
you have that you may not evenrealize you have.
But B, you know, when I was inthe querying trenches and even
on submission, like I lovedlistening to, you know, podcasts
(17:33):
that are no longer around, withauthors that were at the
similar level in their career,because I just wanted to feel
like I had like a writing friendin the room.
You know, and I think, nomatter what, like even if that
expertise is lacking or you'renot quite.
You know where you want to be,yet that's fine.
Providing community is just asimportant to help people keep
going.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Yeah, I was gonna say podcasting as community is also
really important, and whenyou're doing that podcast about
something you're passionateabout or interested in
researching more, it comes offas more authentic to your
audience and so you make betterconnections with people.
So I think that's why so manyauthors enjoy our podcast, not
(18:20):
just because we talk aboutwriting, but because we
obviously love to write.
We obviously are, you know,really working hard in this
industry and really want to makethis work and want to really
make moves.
And that level of emotionalinvestment put in by us.
(18:45):
The listeners can hear it, andthey can.
They are.
That's what they're reallyengaging with, and so you know
whether it's, you know,podcasting for authors or not.
I think that authenticity iswhat people are really looking
for and what they really respondto.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah, we don't profess to be like experts on
you know, certain topics.
We're not like going and doingresearch and, like you know,
typing up dissertations on stuff, like we just kind of come to
it with what we know and I feellike we're really honest about
you know where our expertiseends.
And then we're like and there'sprobably another author who can
talk more about you know thistopic and that's fine, but you
know we bring what we bring toit and I think part of it is
(19:23):
just like being able to hearsomeone else talk about it and
feel like you're in conversationwith them love that.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Um what hosting platform do you use we?
Speaker 3 (19:35):
use anchor spotify for podcasters.
I think it's called it wasanchor yeah and are you guys
monetized?
We are not no you can buy ourbooks.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
You could monetize us by paying her books yeah we
don't do any kind of like ads oranything.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, never for the money I guess we're here we're
here for the vibes.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
We really are like yeah, I'm just here for the
vibes, I'm here to talk aboutbooks yeah well, I put the link
for jill's book in the chat, sowe do a little bit of yeah,
please monetize me, please,somebody.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Um, you do, you know we do the social media posting,
I think, to build awareness andlike help our podcast find
listeners and find people thatcould benefit from it.
But I feel like I mean, y'allweigh in beatrice and chelsea I
feel like, um, so much of whatdrives me in the podcast is just
like curiosity and being likehow, like it's like a way to
cheat, to get like people totalk to me about stuff I want to
ask them questions about, right, it's like.
(20:34):
It's like I want to have like,uh, you know, I want to ask this
editor, I want to ask thisauthor, you know, pick their
brain on this topic and likewe'll just tell them that we
have a podcast and we'll give usan hour of their time.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Like it's great, um, that's true like, for instance,
I have my my um, my horror novelcoming out next year was done
in partnership with anintellectual property company,
and so I wanted to talk moreabout IP with authors who had
(21:06):
worked with IP companies beforealso.
So I reached out to otherauthors who I knew worked with
IP companies and said, hey,would you like to come on and
talk about this?
And they were all likeabsolutely, we would love that.
So that is honestly how it goes.
I think, oh, I'm doing thisthing that I would love to talk
about or that I'm interested in,like we're doing one with like
(21:29):
romance that we haven't done,like, I think, a bunch of
romance stuff.
But we were like you know, wereally want to talk about Black
romance.
We really want to talk like.
I think it's just, what are weinterested in?
What are we like?
What are we?
And I think the fact that we'reinterested in it is indicative
of its value for authors atlarge.
(21:50):
Just because I think we allcycle through the same kinds of
like could I do this?
Could I do that?
Maybe I should research thismore, maybe what is that like?
Every time we see something inpublishers marketplace or we see
an announcement for something,I'm oftentimes like oh, I've
never thought about that genrebefore, I've never thought about
(22:11):
that time period before and Iwould love to talk to that
author, talk to other authorswho write historical fiction in
that place, or whatever.
I really get inspired to askquestions from everywhere.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
And Beatrice, your IP is with Electric Postcard right
.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
It is yes.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
My debut is with electric postcard too, for real.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
I was listening to you guys as ip episode yo,
that's cool and that's cool, youknow, and I and I want to have
another, and I want to haveanother ip episode because I I
want to also talk about see thisis good, because I love to talk
about the entire process oflike how you got started, why
you did it, and then also on theback end of like how editing
(22:59):
was for you, how like you know,that kind of stuff is the stuff
that people don't really hearabout.
This is really, you know, evenon book tours, even in book
signings, authors don't reallytalk about their like
nitty-gritty.
I was, I was in the doc in line.
(23:19):
Comments like that kind of likeserve that line of deep level
of like authoring.
That really only happens whenyou get a bunch of authors in
conversation with each other forthat specific purpose for an
hour, for an hour of our timetalking about this specific
thing, because otherwise, alsoas creatives, we have a lot in
(23:44):
our minds and so I think this isalso a good opportunity for us
to hone in on a very specificinterest of ours for an hour or
so and just have the time toreally just go dive really deep
into something.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I love that.
Do you think you guys in thefuture would collaborate on like
novels or writing as well?
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
I would love to.
It's so funny how we writedifferent genres and age
categories but like we, we eachdo multiple things but they're
like there's almost like nooverlap.
I think Chelsea and I have alittle bit like the dystopian
yeah, kind of area but, um, alot of what Chelsea writes is
like fantasy too.
so it's kind of like we eachhave our pockets.
We've also, we've done like youknow, we've been like cpus and
(24:30):
betas for each other, um, andlike each other's work, and I
think that was part of how wefirst kind of I know.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
I love your writing.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Yes, absolutely, it's so cool that we all have such
different writing styles and inthose writing styles we write
very different genres, differenttypes of stories.
So, honestly, the three of ushas we have such a diverse like
list of things.
In the next like five years,when all of our stuff comes out,
(25:03):
it will be a just an array ofgenres, age categories.
I cannot wait for my afferentshelf, my like, I mean it's
really, really, really it'simpressive how diverse our
interests are and our researchtastes are.
It's really interesting, it'sreally cool.
(25:23):
But I think that they arereally that could be really
complimentary in some kind oflike anthology of sorts.
Speaker 5 (25:31):
Yeah, I was thinking the.
Afronauts anthology Absolutelylike anthology of sorts.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Yeah, I was thinking the Afro-Nazi anthology.
Absolutely, that would bereally really complimentary with
each other to have, like mydeep, dark, spooky horror stuff
with a dystopian romance or likewhatever, like the.
Even though they are very, verydifferent, I think that is what
makes them, that's what makesthem go well together in
something like an anthology,because it would give the reader
(25:54):
a breadth of things to read.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I love that.
Tell me a little bit about yourpublishing journey, if you
don't mind, Beatrice, because Ihaven't heard your story before.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
I was querying for years and years and years.
And then I applied to ElectricPostcard, on recommendation from
our late friend KL, and I gotin and then I got a deal.
(26:30):
Through that and through thatdeal, I made a bunch of
connections and I said and thisis why I say IP work, the real
heavy lifting it does for yourcareer is the connections you
make along the way with theeditors, with the marketers,
(26:52):
with the agents you're workingwith whomever.
And so through thoseconnections, I got a referral
for an agent, several agents.
I actually got, like, I think,three or four referrals to three
or four different agents andfinally one stuck, one really.
We clicked, we talked and itwas.
(27:14):
It just really worked reallywell.
And so now I'm agented by, I'm aclient of, chelsea Hensley at
Madwoman Literary and we arehaving a blast, having a blast,
(27:38):
are having a blast having ablast.
I have, uh, like I said, onedeal announced and then we're
going, I'm going on submissionwith three, three additional
ones in the coming year, and so,um, yeah, I am working all of
the time writing, writing,writing, writing, writing,
writing, writing.
Like I said, I've got a horror,I've got a picture book, I'm
also doing middle grade I'mdoing YA fiction, nonfiction.
(28:01):
I have eclectic tastes.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Love that, Love that Chelsea.
Can we hear your agent journeyand how you got your agent?
Speaker 5 (28:11):
Oh sure, so you know, like, like authors do, queried
for years and years um, I thinkI originally queried with like a
ya dystopian kind of story,like a plague dirt.
Speaker 7 (28:24):
No, it was a plague.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
Yeah, it was like a disease story and I was and I
was querying during the pandemicand it wasn't really hitting
during that time.
So I decided to start on afantasy.
I had never written anythingfantasy.
I was like I don't even know ifI can build a world, but hey,
let's see, I'm just curious.
(28:46):
So I wrote a YA fantasy and Iactually really like fell in
love with fantasy, like I'vealways loved reading fantasy but
like to write it.
I really fell in love with thatprocess and I queried and I
even though the draft was notready to be queried, if I'm
honest, I actually got likemultiple full requests and I was
(29:08):
like, oh, there's actuallysomething here.
So when I knew that the draftneeds some work, I did that and
I think I did some pitchcontests and that's how I kind
of got the attention of my agentnow and they requested a revise
and resubmit from like a newversion of the story.
So I revised it, sent it out tobeta readers Jill's one and I
(29:33):
got some great feedback.
And then, when I sent out thatrise and resubmit, sarah Fisk at
Tobias, like they loved it andthey made an offer and you know
I'm really happy.
I'm working on edits for itright now and I don't know.
It was just one of those thingswhere it's like I got a lot of
(29:54):
like I would say like greenlights, like things that were
like okay, a lot.
You know, I sent out that firstbatch of queries and like I got
some full requests and peopleare people kept saying like, oh,
I love this so much.
But so I knew I was likegetting quote close with the
querying process.
So when Sarah offered it waskind of like I was feeling like
(30:15):
I was ready at that point.
So it's been exciting.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
You were all ready at that point.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
I love that I could relate to your play.
During the pandemic I did thesame thing.
I had a story with witches anda play and nobody bit and I'm
like why?
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (30:29):
You know, I actually got a full request, a few full
requests for that one.
I was a little surprised, butit was like, not quite.
That too depressing.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Yeah, or timing.
You couldn't have planned that.
You couldn't have planned it.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
You know, yeah, very true, very true.
Jill, can you tell us yourjourney?
I know we heard a little bitbefore, but everybody might not
have been here the last time youvisited.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Yeah, so let's see.
So it took me six years tofinish the first draft of my,
the first book I ever wrote.
That was an adult paralleluniverses story and I queried
for that was like 2020.
Yeah, but when I was meetingChelsea and Beatrice, I queried
for about six months but I feltlike I wasn't executing on the
(31:14):
promise of the premise and likedelivering on that, and so I was
applying.
I applied to like pitch wars.
I applied to a few differentmentorship programs and I ended
up applying to Diana Foe, who isan editor at Erewhon now.
She was at four back then.
Now she's she's one of Hugo asan editor.
She had a contest that fall thatwas for black authors of
speculative fiction and the ideawas that you would submit your
(31:36):
manuscript and then she wouldpick a winner and if she picked
you, then she would spend a fullyear giving you a developmental
edit.
So, like the whole, do themanuscript, give you a whole
edit letter, you go back andrevise, give it back to her.
She'd give you a few moretweaks and then you'd be able to
(32:01):
go query it broadly but also toa handful of agents that kind
of wanted a first look at thatmanuscript.
I finished that draft myyoungest was like three months
old and I was like just typingin, like 4 am in the morning was
on my phone and it wasgobbledygook.
But the deadline came and I waslike, ok, I'm just going to
send it out, I'm going to fixthe grammar and go.
And then a few months later gotthe email that I won, which was
incredible.
And, diana, you know, that wasmy first edit letter, my first
experience working with like apublishing professional.
(32:22):
She really, you know, taught mewhat it was like to revise, you
know, at a professional level,and also gave me permission to
do a lot of things, you know, inthe genre of, like adult sci
fifi that I hadn't given myselfpermission to do, and get a
little bit darker with it.
So I revised that and thensubmitted it or went out to
submission.
On querying again, and my agent,jen Azantian, was on the short
(32:44):
list of those agents.
And it's funny because Jen isalmost never open to queries
like just brought, likegenerally open.
You either have to, you know,be part of the contest like this
that she's participating in oryou have to have something on
her manuscript wish list.
And a year prior, when I hadbeen querying just on my own, um
, my friend texted me at like 10o'clock at night and was like,
(33:05):
oh my gosh, like janice antionjust posted this thing, it's
exactly what you wrote.
And it was something about likeI often, I often like wonder
about the alternate universeversions of myself and hope that
they're doing okay.
I've had a really weird dreamabout an alternate universe
version of myself.
If you have something like this, please send it to me.
And I responded to her tweetand I was like I have exactly
this.
And so I ended up pulling thatquery because I wanted to revise
(33:29):
with Diana.
But when I came back a yearlater, she was like I remember
you and we this kind of likefull circle connection.
Um, so I got my agent that wayand then we went on submission
with that parallel universe'sstory and it died on sub after
about a year, uh, but while itwas on sub, I spent three months
and drafted the book that endedup being my debut, the biting
spec.
Uh, so we sold that to joyrevolution, which is an imprint
(33:50):
at penguin random House, whichis founded.
Girl Revolution is an imprintfounded by Nicola and David Yoon
and it's dedicated to lovestories written by and starring
authors of people of color.
So mine is their first likesci-fi acquisition and that's
been really fun.
So the Biting Side came out.
And then I got another dealwith Disney for the middle grade
(34:12):
books and then I have anotherbook for Evolution coming out
next fall and that's me, love it, love it, love it.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I am my story was kind of like you guys, how you
were saying you started yourpodcast to reach out to people
you were curious about.
That's kind of how I starteddoing like author interviews and
stuff.
So I reached out to DonnellClayton and I was doing an
interview with her and I wastalking about electric.
Well, electric postcard didn'texist.
Then it was just cake.
And I was talking to her abouther company and she was talking
about how she was trying to, youknow, create a gateway for
(34:41):
people to get into the industryand stuff.
So at the end of the interviewI did something I never do and I
, you know, shoot your shot.
I did.
I was like, hey, all right.
She was like send me a sample.
And I did, yeah, and then shecalled me back in 15 minutes.
She's like I love it, let'swork.
Speaker 4 (34:55):
And then I was like, yay nice, you gotta shoot your
shot always always, alwaysalways love it, love it, love it
um.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Loved hearing your stories, loved learning from you
guys there um any other adviceyou want to offer to authors or
podcasters or anybody listening.
Speaker 5 (35:17):
I would say, like, just try stuff.
Like even if it doesn't workout like it's fine, just try it.
Like, just go out there, giveit a shot, like with querying,
with story ideas, with podcasts,any kind of content that you're
curious in creating.
I think if you, you mightdiscover something that, like
you didn't think that you coulddo, like I didn't think that I
(35:37):
could do a podcast, like I waslike maybe behind the scenes,
like maybe not, you know, talkabout things in front of a
camera, but I've really enjoyedthe process and to me, I feel
like I've grown out of mycomfort zone and I'm really
happy that like did it.
I remember the night like wheneveryone was talking about
(35:58):
officially doing the podcast, Itold my husband should I, should
I do that?
Like I don't know that doesn'tsound like something I do, but
something about it it's likeappealing to me and he was so
infectious and and I did it'slike such a great, like
life-altering decision reallygirl.
Speaker 4 (36:15):
I, yes, I think the they, you hear it all the time
but community really is soimportant and, um, in the
publishing industry, where itcan oftentimes feel so lonely as
authors because we'reoftentimes writing by ourselves
and it can feel like no one elseis going through this thing.
No one else knows the troubleI've seen, um, but it's not
(36:42):
until you're with other authorsthat you realize oh, everyone is
feeling this way or is feelingsimilar to this.
I'm not the only one who hasthought, oh, this is actually
not a productive way to go aboutquerying, or like, I wish
agents did this differently.
Everyone is thinking thatYou're not alone.
Everyone is thinking queryingis inefficient, or being on
(37:07):
submission is inefficient, or X,y and Z is too difficult, or
blah, blah, blah.
Like this is something that Ipromise you.
Other authors are constantlythinking about and want to like
talk to you about it.
It is an important part ofcommunity, like, even if it is
(37:27):
trauma bonding, even if it isjust like saying, even if it is
just like this thing happenedand I hate that, and blah blah,
even just like being reallyvulnerable with someone, um,
it's really important and Ithink that is a big part of our
(37:48):
success is that we werevulnerable with each other, with
like.
These are my dreams.
This is what I would like to do.
Let's have someone on to talkabout that.
There is a vulnerability therethat really comes that I think
can be looked over, but it'sreally important that, like I
(38:09):
want to be a horror.
You know, my one of my dreamsis that I want to own a horror
imprint and along the way, Iwant to have several horror
editors on.
I want to have other imprintowners on.
I want to have you know, x, yand Z.
And this is part vulnerability,part ego, maybe of like.
(38:32):
I would say part manifestation,part manifestation like I'm I'm
gonna get this done and, uh,this podcast is a really, it's a
really um fun tool for um, forknowledge and community love
that, love that.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
When you get that horror imprint, let me know and
whip up something scary.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
I will, I will, I'll let me know.
And I'll whip up somethingscary.
I will, I'll let you know.
Sorry, I can't really be onaudio right now.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
But I wanted to ask yeah, how big of a learning
curve is the editing andplatform and all of that?
Might've missed this at thebeginning of Zoom.
That's real.
Yeah, I think it was fine.
You know, we, we jumped rightin, I think.
I think anchor, you know,spotify for podcasters makes it
really easy to get started.
Um, you know, the onboardingprocess is really
straightforward.
Um, we, what else?
(39:23):
Like like buying a microphone,like even that is like you know
it helps, but it's not like arequirement to get started.
Um, and then editing yeah, youcan do canva or yeah, audacity
is also free and they eat, likethis very straightforward, just
like editing.
It's pretty much like what youwould be used to doing in like
tiktok claire.
So like it's verystraightforward.
I think it's not complicated atall.
It's like scheduling a post.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
It's like it's super easy yeah, I still can't figure
out how to schedule an instagrampost can you schedule instagram
posts?
Speaker 4 (39:53):
I think you can, yeah , yeah, I don't, I don't be
knowing that kind of stuff.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
I have to know.
I felt like I do all my stufflater in the night and then I
scheduled it for the nextmorning because, yeah, that's
real you can see and you see,you see our different working
styles in action.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
she's just like I don't, I don't want to know, I'm
not going to do that.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Any more questions?
I'm sorry, any more questions.
Speaker 6 (40:21):
I have a question.
I'm very excited for all yourbooks.
I hope we get titles after thiszoom meeting.
No-transcript.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
That's a great question.
I want to say no, but I will saythat I am more aware of what I
say.
(41:11):
Taught me also is how much of abusiness this is and that
although this is, you know, mylife stream I'm an artist, I'm a
poet, etc.
I do have to like put on my, myadult pants and recognize that
this is a business call, this isa business you know, etc.
And so that that part um is whyI'm more aware of what I'm
(41:33):
saying on the podcast, because Ihave to be aware this is I'm
speaking as um, an author, butalso as the client, as a client,
as someone who has contractswith a company who very well
could take away this book dealfrom me if X, y and Z.
And so I have to be aware ofthat.
(41:54):
It's not like I censor myselfnecessarily, but it's just more
so of I'm not going to saysomething super outlandish,
because I like having my job andmoney, and that is something,
honestly, that you have to keepin mind that like, listen, I'm
(42:17):
here for this is my job and, atthe end of the day, I need this
job, and so that's very honest,yeah, and I think even before.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
I mean, like you know , we we were just getting on the
podcast to chat, but we alsoknow that you know it's, it's a,
it's a positioning and likemarketing tool and if there's an
agent who's interested intaking you on as a client, one
of the first things they'regoing to do is check out your
social media and check and theydid platforms and they did yeah,
they did they, and they told usthat they did that yeah, yeah.
(42:48):
So, like you, you have to beaware of that.
You know you're not just liketalking into a vacuum, like
that's what the group chat isfor, if you want to say
something.
That's kind of like you know yesyes, but yeah, I think I think
all of us kind of likeunderstood that from the jump
and we're just kind of like, youknow we can talk and be
authentic about things but also,you know, know, be respectful
and professional and know thatthis is the business.
I think too, you know, on theother side of being agented and
(43:11):
getting a book deal, you can seebehind the curtain a little bit
and understand that some of thethings that you might have
thought were like a hugeinjustice are just like the way
the machine works and it's notnecessarily any one person
having it out for anybody else,right.
You know things that a lessseasoned author might take
personally.
Somebody who's been through it,you know, once or twice says
like that's just kind of the waythe job goes, yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:36):
I want to.
I want to emphasize the peoplelooking for you, Because my
agent, when I was on the callwith her the first time we ever
talked, she said I listened toyour podcast, I really enjoyed
it, and I had no idea that Inever I never discussed my
podcast with her, I nevermentioned it.
But she looked me up.
(44:01):
She looked up the podcast, mysocial media et cetera, and she
told me I listened to severalepisodes.
You like blah, blah, blah andso you have to also be aware of
that.
I went to New York last monthwith my picture book publisher
and I had someone come up to meand say, oh, I love your podcast
, blah, blah, blah.
(44:21):
And I was like, oh, wow, Thankyou it's public, thank you, and
it was, it's public.
You, you're right, you, you canlisten.
Uh, I forget um, and so that is.
Those are always good remindersof, like you know, we are not
talking.
This is in a vacuum.
People are listening to us umconsistently regularly.
(44:43):
Also we have like regularlisteners, which is really cool,
um, but it's also um aresponsibility, because also a
lot of our listeners are umblack authors, um black
unagented authors, um who, andthat is you know, also there is
responsibility that comes withthat also to be, you know, a
(45:06):
good, a good resource for them.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
And that you guys are .
You're very informative.
One of my favorite episodes isthe one where you guys were
talking about how theymistreated poor Bonnie Bennett.
Speaker 5 (45:23):
That was a great one.
Speaker 4 (45:26):
And that was because I wanted to talk about Bonnie
Bennett.
That's true.
Speaker 5 (45:30):
Beatrice was like I want like this whole
conversation and we had it andit was great.
Speaker 4 (45:36):
I did.
I said that.
I said, listen, I want to talkabout it, I have a lot to say
and I still do and I always will.
And you know, and that's reallya really good representation of
the podcast, because it reallyis just me being fired up about
something and be like I want totalk about this for 45 minutes
and Jill and Chelsea being likeyes, OK, yes.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
So what I love about it is what I love about it is
how you connected it to crap.
So you're not just talkingabout it like a fan venting, but
you're talking about it like afan venting, but then you bring
it back to the writing and whatworks and what didn't for you
and that was what you know madeit so enjoyable for me.
I'm glad I worked hard on that.
Thank you so much.
I appreciate that.
Speaker 4 (46:19):
That episode was originally a.
I did a Voodoo Knots class onSouthern Gothic television and
so I adapted that for thepodcast for um bonnie bennett
interview with the vampire, allof that.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
So thank you, I really appreciate that yep, hey
mo, hey, did you have anyquestions?
Speaker 7 (46:41):
um, well, I've had a comment.
I thought it was veryinteresting when Jill talked
about how she had a piece thatsort of didn't go anywhere, or
she was able to pull out a piece, you know, from a year later
where we leave them half sitting.
(47:05):
Um, or sometimes we feel like,oh well, not we.
I like oh well, uh, I, this is.
This is horribly written.
I'm not going to do anythingwith this and throw it away and
like you know, just I thoughtthat was very interesting that,
like you know, here's thisopportunity and you're like oh,
I got this whole piece already,not just like I started it, but
(47:27):
oh, yeah, I have this, this iswritten.
So I, you know, that wasdefinitely stood out for me to
like keep those things, you know.
Yeah, absolutely.
Like when?
What's what's going to come ofit?
You know, and even if it's justsitting in my drive, you know,
you know, for for a decade, youknow, the moment I throw it away
(47:47):
is probably the time I'm goingto get a Absolutely no,
definitely definitely keep allof that I will actually give you
an example.
Speaker 4 (47:55):
My agent I had a book that I shelved almost a decade
ago now, and a couple of weeksago my agent said that she was
talking to an editor who wasinterested in that genre, and so
she asked me do you haveanything in that genre?
And it's a high fantasy?
And I was like yes, and I waslike yeah, but I haven't touched
(48:18):
it in a decade.
I showed her the pitch and alittle bit of the synopsis and
she was like I love this, let'stry and go out with this.
And this is something Like Ilove this, let's try and go out
with this.
And this is something, again, Ihave not touched in many, many
years.
And I'm now getting to revisitthis story.
It's really exciting and had I,you know, had I, like, thrown
(48:44):
it away or like whatever,forgotten about it, I wouldn't
have had this opportunity.
But no, keep all of yourprojects, remember them, keep,
hoard them like gold, becauseyou never you really never know
what little piece of a projectyou might could fit into another
project or you know what kindof thing you can repurpose later
.
You never know.
(49:05):
I really recommend keepingeverything, and I am a big keep
it.
You never know, you never know.
Speaker 7 (49:16):
My problem is, like you know, somewhere in my 40s I
became a minimalist and so Istill sort of have that
mentality like, oh, haven't wornit, haven't used it, haven't
let it go, and so haven't timeto let it go, and so I tend to
sort of like let these things goso that I won't accumulate all
through all this stuff.
So I definitely have to likeswitch my mentality.
When it comes to the rain, it'slike it's okay to hoard, you
(49:39):
can emotionally, let it go right.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
Emotionally let it go , but keep it in your drive yeah
, yeah, everything has its place, yeah so just make a place for
it.
Speaker 7 (49:50):
And then also, you know I know you guys said that
you had that you guys cametogether as the podcast works
really well because you guyswere friends before you ventured
into that project.
How did I mean, did you guysmeet through writing?
Did you guys meet, like, hadyou just school?
(50:12):
Like how did your relationshipsform?
I said because one of thethings that for myself and my
experience is this you know,it's like we all have different
tribes, right, you know.
So I actually went to an MFAprogram because I wanted to
build a tribe of writers and soKiana and I were talking about
this a little earlier.
(50:32):
You know, it was sort of likeyou don't want to force
relationships, but you want thembecause that's part of what
you're here for and you mayparticularly want.
You know, you just want to try.
You want to try.
So, like, how did thatrelationship form for you guys?
Speaker 5 (50:51):
So I know, for me, kale had, like the our late
friend Kale Bird had a writer'sgroup already and he found me on
Twitter.
I was participating in a pitchcontest and he was like I love
your pitch, I have this group,like come join, and I was like
who is this?
But I joined and it was greatand to me it's kind of like, I
(51:12):
think, also letting yourself beopen to things that you might
not necessarily think you'd beinterested in.
You can always like leave agroup.
You know if you join in it'snot quite a right fit, but it
was a great group.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
And I'm glad to have met my co-hosts, yeah, and there
were like 40 something authorsin there.
I mean, there were a lot of usin there and I think it just
kind of happened, naturally,where, you know, a small cluster
of us began to kind of speak upa little bit more or had
different, had similar things tosay or, you know, got into you
know innocent debates aboutcraft stuff, right, and kind of
like you know kind of to take it, take it further and have more
of a discussion.
And then someone was like hey,like we should have these
(51:51):
conversations in front of otherpeople.
Speaker 5 (51:53):
Yeah, there's value here.
Sometimes it was like a callout for everyone in the group.
Speaker 4 (51:59):
I think he I think he was like hey, does anyone want
to join me?
And we were among those thatwere like, and so, um, so we
were already a part of thewriting the group, the writers
group, and then, within thegroup, we were probably maybe
the chattier ones and so we werelike let's chat in a mic, yes,
(52:22):
um, yeah, I, and I started, Ijoined the writers group through
um kl had a post on twitter andhe said I'm starting a writers
group for black writers.
And I reached out to him and Iwas like I want to join, can I
send me a link please?
(52:42):
And he was like and I thinkthat was also part, probably why
, like, I have all that.
Yeah, be bold, guys, be bold.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
I really do.
Speaker 4 (52:53):
You never know.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah, love that.
Any more questions, you guys?
Well then, I guess that meansyou guys are super duper
thorough.
Thank you so much for stoppingby.
Uh, we learned a lot, we had alot of fun.
It was a great conversation andI appreciate you guys.
(53:18):
And again, jill's link is inthe chat, so if you want to
scroll up, you can link thedividing sky.
Speaker 3 (53:25):
Thanks for having me.
I'll uh, I'll throw my middlegrade in there too.
Speaker 4 (53:28):
Okay, I put my um my handle for instagram.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
I'm most um active on instagram, so yeah, okay, same
love it, love it, love it thanks, jd.
Speaker 8 (53:44):
That wraps up today's craft Chat Chronicles with JD
Mayer.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
jdmayercom.
That's jdmayercom.
(54:04):
While you're there, join JD'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
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