Ever wondered how a childhood love for storytelling can transform into a successful writing career? Join us as we sit down with USA Today bestselling author Eliza Knight, who takes us on a journey from her early passion for writing to becoming a celebrated historical fiction novelist. Eliza shares invaluable insights from her educational background in journalism and family studies, her first foray into publishing with a short story in 2008, and the pivotal moments that shaped her full-time writing career. Learn about her quest for the right literary agent and how she navigated the complex world of publishing, both traditional and self-publishing.
Get a behind-the-scenes look at the emotional and creative challenges Eliza faced while co-writing historical fiction. Discover the secrets to crafting authentic dialogue, handling sensitive topics like race, and creating a balanced co-authoring dynamic. Eliza opens up about the often daunting task of manuscript revisions, including cutting 150 pages based on editorial feedback, and how these hurdles ultimately lead to more compelling stories. You'll also gain practical tips for engaging your readers from the first page, avoiding a saggy middle, and ensuring a satisfying conclusion.
Eliza doesn't stop there; she also shares her dual publishing journey and the marketing strategies that have contributed to her success. From leveraging BookBub and Amazon ads to balancing traditional publishing's benefits with the demands of self-publishing, Eliza offers a wealth of knowledge for aspiring authors. Finally, we dive into character development, promotional responsibilities, and even a sneak peek at her upcoming contemporary novel, "Rush Week." Whether you're an aspiring writer or a historical fiction enthusiast, this episode is packed with insights that you'll find both inspiring and practical.
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🎙️ Craft Chat Chronicles with J.D. Myall
Candid conversations on writing, publishing, and creative life — featuring bestselling authors, MFA students, and writers at every stage of the journey.
About J.D. Myall
J.D. Myall is the co-chair of Drexel University’s MFA Alumni Association and a publishing and library professional. She is the creator and host of Craft Chat Chronicles, where she interviews authors, agents, and industry insiders about the art and business of writing.
Her work has appeared in Ms. Magazine, Writer’s Digest, and HuffPost. Her debut novel, Heart’s Gambit, releases with Wednesday Books/Macmillan in February 2026.
When she’s not conjuring magic, murder, and mayhem on the page, J.D. mentors emerging writers through workshops and alumni programs, fostering community among aspiring and published authors alike.
💜 Connect with J.D. Myall
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Watch episodes on YouTube as well.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
(00:25):
jdmyhallcom.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
In season two, episode nine of Craft Chat
Chronicles, we get chatty withUSA Today bestselling author
Eliza Knight.
This is season two, episodenine of Craft Chat Chronicles.
Eliza Knight.
This is season two, episodenine of Craft Chat Chronicles.
Let's get chatty.
Hi and welcome to tonight'sCraft Chat.
Tonight we are thrilled towelcome Eliza Knight, a USA
Today bestselling authorcelebrated for her captivating
(00:57):
historical fiction.
Tonight Eliza is going to talkabout her newest novel Can't we
Be Friends?
And she's going to talk aboutwriting craft historical fiction
and her journey through thepublishing world.
Welcome, eliza, thank you somuch.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I was turning around to grab a copy of Can't we Be
Friends, but just realized mybookshelf is empty because I
packed it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
We're in the midst of a move, but I have a little
bookmark here so you can see thecover.
How did you start yourpublishing journey?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
So that is a really good question.
My publishing journey startedwhen I was a child.
Actually, I always had wantedto write stories and so when I
was in second grade I wrote abook like a little children's
book called the Mouse who Stolethe Cheese, and it had like its
own cardboard cover and myteacher told my parents I was
going to be an author one dayand they were like, oh, that's
so cute.
And then in third grade I had astory published in a charity
(01:57):
anthology and I just kind oflike continued my writing
journey from there.
When I was in high school Iwrote for my high school
newspaper.
I became the editor, and then Iwent to college for journalism
originally, and I studiedjournalism for two years before
I realized I didn't want towrite like facts, which is
ironic considering I writebiographical fiction, which is
(02:19):
facts.
I wanted to have like thatcreative power to write fiction.
So I said to my parents I'mswitching majors to English and
they said, no way, you need areal job when you graduate.
And I was like, well, thatsucks.
So I did get a job in ourdegree in family studies, which
(02:40):
is like psychology, social work,education, and I worked in
mental health for a little while, but all the while I was still
like writing on the side justfor fun, because it's always
just been a part of who I am andI love just the process of
creating stories and charactersand then sharing them with
people.
And so probably six years or sointo that career, I was like you
(03:01):
know what?
This isn't what I want to do.
I'm taking control of my lifeand I am going to write a book.
So I started writing forpublication in 2006 and I was
entering a lot of contests andgetting a lot of feedback and
taking classes and things likethat, and my first short story
was published in 2008.
(03:21):
And it's kind of just been likea whirlwind of writing ever
since then.
I got my first agent shortlyafter that and I'm now what you
would consider a hybrid author.
So I have several traditionalcontracts and then I also have
several books that I've writtenand published myself and I
(03:42):
really like being firmly in bothworlds.
So if anyone ever has anyquestions about being hybrid or
anything like that, I'm alwaysopen to those sorts of questions
.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Oh, I love that.
We'll definitely be gettinginto that soon.
How did you get your currentagent?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
So the agent I have right now.
We've been together since 2010.
And my first agent I was onlywith for about a year and it
just turned out like it wasn't agood fit, and at the time I was
looking for another agent and afriend of mine had said well,
my agent loves historical, soyou should reach out to her.
And it was an agent that I hadon a list of agents to query
(04:24):
before I got my other agent andthen I hadn't done that one yet.
So I was very excited to havethe opportunity to chat with her
and she asked me to send herpartial, which I did, and she
loved it.
So we ended up working togetherand we've been together ever
since.
That's awesome, how many years.
So I guess like 14.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Oh, that's really awesome.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
How many years?
So I guess like 14.
Oh, that's really awesome.
Yeah, yeah, she's, she's great.
And I always tell everyone Ifeel like having an agent is
like committing almost to like amarriage, you know, because,
like this person, they, um, theyknow all your financial
information, they hold yourmoney for you, they, they make
sure you get paid, um, they,they hold your hand when you're
upset about rejections or theyhigh five you when you know
(05:07):
you've got some good news.
So if you really want to bewith someone that you can trust
and that you can feel like it'sgoing to give you that feedback,
that, and not just be sort oflike blase about it or not
interested.
I've had several friends who'vehad that experience and,
honestly, my first agent, likewe weren't a good fit, like
blase about it or not interested.
I've had several friends who'vehad that experience and,
honestly, my first agent, likewe weren't a good fit.
(05:29):
Like you know, she just reallydidn't like my stories, which is
funny because, like I don'tknow why she signed with me to
begin with.
But it happens.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So how did you get into co-writing with Danny S
Bryce?
How did you guys meet?
How did you um get intoco-writing with Denny S Bryce?
How did you guys meet?
How did you guys end upco-writing a novel?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
yeah.
So, um, denny and I have beenfriends for a really long time.
I think we met originally inabout maybe it was 2009.
We were both along to theMaryland romance writers and the
Washington romance writers, sowe saw each other a lot at
different meetings and we wouldgo to conferences together.
And um, we, since we lived soclose by and like formed like a
friendship, we started writingtogether.
(06:12):
About once a month we wouldjust get together to like do
write-ins, have lunch, drinksome wine, gossip, things like
that.
And um, I was already co-writingsome books with some other
authors.
Some we called them like novelsin part, so it was like six of
us that would write one novel.
We wrote A Day of Fire and AYear of Ravens and Ribbons of
(06:36):
Scarlet just same like a coupleof those and so when I was
chatting with Denny, she waslike I would love to write a
novel together.
So we kind of like alwaysthought about that and sometimes
when we'd be getting togetherfor our write-ins, we would just
like jump down rabbit holes andon one particular write-in
during our lunch, we were likethinking about different clubs
(06:58):
in LA on the Sunset Strip Likeat first it was the 70s, which
ended up being kind of funnybecause we did have a little bit
of our book be in the 70s, butwe were looking at the Macombo
Club, which hosted like a lot ofreally famous singers and
entertainers, and we came acrossthe story of Ella Fitzgerald
and Marilyn Monroe having metand that Marilyn assisted Ella
(07:20):
in getting her first gig at theMacombo Club.
So we're like, oh, that'sreally interesting, like we
didn't know that they werefriends.
And so we kind of like dug alittle bit deeper into that
friendship and we found anadvertisement for an album
called the Friends Albumactually, that they were going
to sing together and the albumnever came to fruition.
(07:42):
So that put in our minds a bigquestion like why this was a
contracted album with RCARecords.
It was printed in the paperthat they were going to do it.
What happened?
And there's a couple of reasonsfor it not happening, mostly
having to do with some of themanagers on Marilyn Monroe's
side side, but the friendshipnevertheless was just something
(08:06):
that really fascinated us, andso we were like you know what we
need to write about this?
I think this would be a greatstory to share and a lot of fun
to do together.
So we jumped right into it.
Well, sort of we jumped intothe research of it, but we both
had other contracts, so it tookus about two years before we
could actually start puttingtogether a proposal to send to
our agents.
But eventually we did, and thenthey loved it.
So we ended up getting apitching it out to different
(08:29):
editors and it went to auctionbecause a couple different
editors wanted to buy it, andthe rest is history.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Now how does that work when there's two agents
involved with the sale?
How do you discern, determinewhich agent sends it out, and
submission and stuff?
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah.
So we we figured out from theget-go that we were going to use
my agent because she hadcontacts at the publishers that
we really wanted to see ifthey'd be interested in the book
.
So that was pretty much thereason we decided that, because
she just had more contacts there.
And I think that's usually whatends up happening is you pick
(09:04):
the agent who would have morecontact and be able to get in
touch with them and kind ofwield like their powers in the
in the editor space or whatever.
And so she was the point person.
But Denny's agent was involvedthe whole way, so like we would
all four of us get on the phoneto chat about everything.
So like we would all four of usget on the phone to chat about
(09:24):
everything.
And so it wasn't like one agentwas just in charge and Denny's
agent still got paid the 15% ofher portion as well.
So it was just like a pointperson, kind of like how, if you
do a group project, you say, ok, you're going to be the speaker
, but we're all going to do thework together.
We just have like appointed aspeaker.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
That's basically how it was.
And how was it with the writing.
Did you guys, like each take acharacter, did you?
How did you do that?
Speaker 3 (09:50):
So, yeah, we each took a character Denny did
Ella's voice and I did Marilyn'svoice and we would switch back
and forth with the chapter.
So when one of us would write achapter, we'd send it to the
other and we'd edit it, and backand forth, like that.
And then if the scenes had thecharacters in it together, we
actually wrote those scenestogether so that the character
voices would remain authentic ineach chapter, no matter which
(10:13):
one of us was, you know, incharge of that chapter.
So it was really fun.
We did that a lot on GoogleDocs.
We were on Zoom a lot.
We had about 18,000spreadsheets that we used to
keep track of all theinformation and timelines and
characters and themes and all ofthat.
So it's a lot of planning whenyou go into writing a book with
(10:36):
someone else, because you haveto make sure that you're all on
the same page and that you'regetting the information from the
same place, and that also thatyour chapters match in theme,
because you don't want it to notmake sense.
Basically is really important.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
And did you guys ever like disagree on anything?
How did you?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah, so the only thing we ever really like I
don't even necessarily think itwas like a disagreement but one
thing Denny always says is thatI write so fast and she's she's
not really a new writer.
She keeps calling herself a newwriter but she's had like seven
contracts at this point.
So I think she's, you know,very well established and she's
(11:19):
been in the writing space for areally long time.
But I just write really fastand so I know that that was a
problem, because I'd be likehere's my chapter and she's like
, wait, I'm only on, you know,page one of mine and I'm like,
oh, my God, sorry.
So that was like just one thing, was like learning each other's
pace so that I wasn'toverwhelming her and and she
(11:41):
wasn't making me feel like, youknow, she wasn't going fast
enough or something like that.
So just like those little minorthings and it really wasn't a
big deal.
The biggest problem that we hadwith the book was actually when
we got our edits back.
Our editor wanted us to cut thefirst 150 pages and you guys
are all writers, exactly, ouch,I pretty much cried, denny like
(12:05):
cursed, and we were like whythis is horrible.
We spent so much time writingit.
That's such a huge chunk of thebook, but in the end it ended
up working out really wellbecause those first 150 pages
actually allowed us to get toknow the two women very well,
and so it I like to think of itas like an exercise, even though
(12:27):
it was a very long and painfulexercise to cut, but it helped
us really get into theirheadspace, I think.
So in the end the book isbetter for it, and we were able
to beef up a lot of the laterchapters from cutting all of
that and having extra word space.
So that was the biggest thing.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Love that.
How do you keep the dialogue inhistorical fiction like
relatable to modern audiences,but still authentic?
That is such a good question.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
So I think keeping it relatable is it's a lot easier,
I think, than it sounds, justbecause people back in history
whether you're talking aboutlike the 1700s or you know 1900s
or whatever people's problemshaven't really changed that much
(13:16):
.
And a lot of our book is aboutlike friendship.
So there's friendship themes inyou know all realms, but and
then obviously, like there's alot of racial contention in our
book as well that Ella's havingto deal with and that's
something that you know Blackwomen are still dealing with
today.
So there's a lot and thatcarries over.
(13:38):
And you know the issues withwomen in the workplace in the
1950s.
Like we have come far.
We can now get credit cards.
You know that happened in the1950s.
Like we have come far, we cannow get credit cards.
You know that happened in the70s.
So that's nice.
But there's still things thatwomen are really trying hard to
work for.
So I think that those themessort of carry through all time
periods and readers of today canconnect with those things as
(14:00):
well.
But remaining authentic isreally just like making sure
that we stayed true to thecharacters and their histories
and what they were going through, and I think it's just you know
, something that anyone canreally connect with.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Love that Were you shy or scared about approaching
race in the novel.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yes, mostly because, as a white person, I obviously
haven't dealt with racial issuesmyself, so I was very, very
conscious of that and Denny issuch a wonderful person so, like
her and I had so manyconversations about it and very
like open dialogue, which wasreally really nice because I
(14:42):
learned a lot and then you know,obviously we're able to share
that with readers.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
That is really cool.
What are the benefits and thedrawbacks to co-writing?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
So the benefits, the benefits that I we always think
that there might be aren't isn'treally a benefit.
So one of them is that youthink like, oh, I only have to
write half a book.
Or if you've got more than oneuh co-writer, you're like, oh, I
only have to write a third or aquarter or six of this book,
which is not really true becauseeven though you might only be
(15:15):
in charge of a certain wordcount, you still have to read
and edit and be, like you know,knowledgeable of what is
happening in the rest of thestory.
So it's still just as much work.
But the benefit is that you getto share that in all of the
excitement with a writingpartner you get to share, and
also the crying like if youreditor says to cut 150 pages.
(15:38):
And then also the fun part isthat we got to do different
events together.
So getting to travel together,getting to you know, geek out
about history with and writingwith you know people at the same
time that has really been veryrewarding.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Awesome.
Yeah, what do you think are theessential elements of a good
first page?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
So I think the essential elements of a first
page is really hooking thereader.
Obviously, right from the firstsentence you really want to
draw them in by asking a youknow question, like forming
questions in their, in thereader's mind by what's
happening on that page and Ithink also introducing the main
character and so you get a tastefor who they are and their
(16:24):
personality and then maybe alittle hint of what their goal
is.
But the major thing is reallyintroducing those questions and
hooks that are going to keep thereader going on to page two.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
And how do you avoid the saggy middle?
The dreaded saggy middle?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
The saggy middle is so hard.
No matter how many books you'vewritten, it's always the same.
It's such a struggle.
So for me, I think the I justgo back to do I need more
conflict.
Um, if it's getting kind ofboring and I'm feeling like it's
stagnant and I'm not goinganywhere, then maybe I need to
introduce some conflict, ormaybe I need to beef up my
actual plot or like heighten thestakes, um.
(17:03):
So I usually just go back andtry to read through and figure
out if there's something I cando to make it more exciting, and
that's pretty much my thing.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
And how do you craft an engaging ending?
Speaker 3 (17:18):
The endings are also really hard.
So I think, like crafting anengaging ending, I really try to
make sure that I at least forme personally, I don't leave any
books on a cliffhanger.
So any of the questions I'veintroduced throughout the entire
novel, I really try to makesure I've wrapped those up at
the end and I want to say that Ileave the reader satisfied,
(17:39):
except that, you know, in somestories it's not always a
satisfying ending, but at leastit's satisfying enough.
I guess is the way I say it.
Like, for example, my book, theMayfair Bookshop.
My heroine has a really bigstruggle and at the end she
doesn't get what she wants butshe's happy with where her life
(17:59):
is headed.
So there's that.
And then, of course, in Can'twe Be Friends everybody knows
Marilyn Monroe doesn't make it.
I mean that's, you know it wasvery hard and very tragic and
for us one of the things that wewanted to do was not put that
on the page.
So you kind of leave off with alittle bit of hope, even though
(18:20):
you know it's not going to endup happening, even though you
know it's not going to end uphappening.
So we wanted to leave the booksort of like on an uplifting
note kind of At least not makepeople just like cry at the end,
I mean maybe they did?
I don't know, but I thinkthat's the best thing is just
(18:41):
making sure that you've wrappedeverything up and not left your
reader like, okay, well, whathappened to?
Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
How did you guys tackle the revisions?
How many revisions did thenovel take?
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Oh my gosh, prior to the 150 page cut, I think that
we rewrote and revised probablylike four or five times.
Denny has a really greatediting system.
That we did and it really madethe sentences very tight and
flowy and she's really reallygood at writing rhythmically, so
(19:13):
we worked a lot on that.
What is that?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
system like how does that work?
Speaker 3 (19:19):
It's just like layering back and forth.
So, like you know, you firstwrite like a very bare bones,
kind of like just spitting itout, and then going in and like
adding in the details and kindof like massaging things, seeing
if you've written any themesinto the novel that you maybe
weren't aware of whichdefinitely happens a lot and
then kind of seeing if thosework and how you can exploit
(19:41):
those in other ways.
And then looking at like she'sreally much better at it than I
am, of like writing like these,like lyrical, rhythmic sentences
that like she'll read it outloud and like count the beats
and then see like if she canchange the sentence in a way to
make it flow with this beat,which is really cool.
(20:04):
So there was a lot like thatand then just really tightening
the sentences a lot, which youknow we used like Grammarly and
stuff like that, to kind oftighten stuff up.
And then we had, I think, threeor four beta readers go through
it and then we would take theirsuggestions and rewrite again.
(20:24):
And then after the 150 pages,it was pretty much the same
thing because we had to rewriteand add in some scenes.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
So we just went through those things over again
(22:07):
um, you talked about your threeor four beta readers.
How did you, how did you selectyour beta readers and how do
you know what feedback toincorporate versus what doesn't
work?
How do you decide that?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
so, um, we each picked, like two of our own
people that normally read ourwork, so they're familiar with
them, and, um, the one thingthat's really important about
beta readers, I think, is thatyou find someone that you can
trust that's going to give youfeedback.
They're not afraid to give yougood feedback, because you know
it doesn't help if they're like,oh, loved it, great, but
(22:37):
they're not mean either, like Ihave had a mean critique partner
before and I just felt liketerrible about my writing every
time.
So I think finding someone thatyou can trust and that is like
that happy balance forconstructive criticism is really
good.
So we just picked two peoplethat we're familiar with and
then they read the whole bookand they gave the feedback.
(22:58):
And normally what I like to dois if more than one person says
like, hey, this scene is anissue, or I'm not getting the
motivation here, or thischaracter is kind of falling
flat, something like that, thenI will definitely beef it up.
If it's just one person, I'llreread it and see if I can do
(23:20):
something to make it better,unless I just don't agree.
Sometimes people are like, oh,you should have her do this.
No, thanks, that's not part ofthe story and then word choice
and things like that.
It's always subjective, so I'llthink about do I like that or
don't I like it?
It's basically just like apersonal like choice.
Unless more than one personsays the same thing, then I
(23:42):
really I'm like okay, if twopeople are pointing this out,
it's an issue.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Love that you write romance as well.
What?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
are some tips for writing a juicy and good romance
novel.
So obviously with romance, the,the whole point is like the
relationship and getting to thathappily ever after or the
happily for now.
But the fun part of reading theromance is thinking like you
know, why should these two betogether and why can't they be
together, and like basicallyfiguring out ways to keep them
apart the whole time.
And then there's like, oh,they're going to get together.
(24:16):
Nope, they're not.
So like a lot of the back andforth is fun, but also adding in
all of that tension and youknow the flirting I love like a
good banter session and I thinkjust like heightening it that
way with a lot of like chatterand body language and things
like that.
Of course in romance there'salso the love scenes as well
(24:39):
that readers seem to reallyenjoy.
So there's that.
But I think for me that the thebest part of making it a juicy
novel is really just that backand forth, tension like that,
the chase and the fun of thegame of like figuring out
whether or not two people aregoing to be together and for
people who aren't likenecessarily romance readers what
does tension look like inromance?
(25:00):
so it's like, um a perfectexample.
If anyone here has ever watchedthe kira knightley pride and
prejudice movie, um, it's whenhe gets out of the car and their
fingers like happen to brushand he like squeezes his hand
really tight because, oh my god,our fingers just touched.
That's basically what it lookslike you mentioned that you're a
(25:23):
hybrid.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
How did you your path , your hybrid path, begin and
tell us a little bit more aboutthat experience.
What are the benefits, therewards and the challenges of
being a hybrid?
Author.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
So my hybrid career started actually back in 2010.
I was originally published bytwo small presses and I had no
idea what royalties were goingto look like.
And I was very disappointed,because when I started writing
and the small presses werereally electronic book presses
(25:59):
back in 2008, people didn'treally read on e-readers all
that much.
There was a Sony e-reader.
I'm not even sure the Kindlewas a thing back then, but it
wasn't working out for me.
And then in 2010, amazon openedup the, the self publishing
platform, and I thought, well,you know what, maybe I'll just
(26:20):
get my rights back from thosestories they're not making money
anyway and I maybe I can do abetter job and so I published
them on.
I think I got the rights backfor seven stories and I
published them on Kindle and inthe first month I made more
money than I'd made in like twoyears with the publisher.
So I thought, well, this isreally interesting.
(26:41):
And so I thought, well, maybeI'll try writing a book that I
don't send out to a publisher,just write one for myself.
So I did that in 2012.
At the time, I was still withtwo other small presses
publishing through them as well,so I was doing both.
And when my novel came out in2012, the first one that I did
(27:04):
on my own it went very well andI was like really excited about
that.
So I was like really excitedabout that.
So I was like you know what.
I think I'm just gonna keepdoing both and um, at some point
I want to say maybe 2016 one ofmy publishers went defunct, so
I got all of those books backand I put those up as well.
Um, but I've always just reallyfirmly believed in doing both.
(27:26):
I think that writers shouldhave the ability to do both, and
if you're willing to do both,why not?
I like having my hands in allof the different pots, so I do a
lot of traditional audio aswell, and it's different for
romance, because I think you canfind a bigger readership with
(27:49):
Kindle and things like that thatare more indie, whereas
historical fiction the readersare much more likely to buy a
paperback and unfortunately Ican't get the kind of
distribution that a publisherhas.
So I still like to publishtraditionally with those because
I can get in front of readersmore than I could if I did it
independently.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
And how do you market and promote your independent
books?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
So I do a lot of advertising.
I love BookBub, I have usedAmazon ads before and then I use
Facebook ads and things likethat, and then I have a
newsletter.
So I obviously send out to mynewsletter and then I'm pretty
big on social media as well,because I feel like that's one
of the ways to reach out to yourreaders and kind of keep in
(28:33):
touch and and they likefollowing you on there and
seeing what you're up to andthen if you comment and they
comment back they, they.
It's a nice exchange and a wayto like show appreciation for
them reading your books lovethat.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
What's?
What are the differences?
What do you like better, whatdo you like worse?
About traditional versus indieokay.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
So I love with traditional that I'm just really
in charge of writing andpromoting the book.
Um, I don't have to find theeditor.
I don't have to find the copyeditors.
I don't have to hire the artdesigners.
I don't have to hire the artdesigners.
I don't have to be in charge ofall of the nitty gritty things
which, with self-publishing, Ido have to do that and it just
(29:16):
takes a lot of time.
I have to do the formatting, Ihave to do all the uploading,
pricing and things like that.
So it's just really time that Idon't enjoy.
And then with traditional, likeI said, I really enjoy the
benefits of being in bookstoresand having a wider reach and
then, you know, having theirmarketing expertise as well.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I love that.
Do any of you guys have anyquestions?
Okay, cool Hi.
Speaker 5 (29:44):
Well, thank you for being here.
So I had a question about thesoggy middle.
I know you said you go back andthink, well, should I raise the
stakes or heighten the plot?
Could you talk more on that?
How have you done thatpersonally in one of your books?
Speaker 3 (29:59):
So I'll talk about a book I'm actually working on
right now.
I just keep going back andthinking, okay, am I taking the
easy way out in this situation,or could I introduce a like an
issue and then resolve it to bewhere I am right now?
So, for example, this is goingto sound silly, but so my
character she is a copy editorand she has a lot of contention
(30:25):
with people at work, includingthis one girl who's always kind
of backstabbing her, and she hasthese special red pencils that
she special ordered for her copyediting.
And when she gets to work oneday, her pencils are gone, and
so she goes over to her coworkers desk and she opens the
drawer because she's not inthere and she notices that her
(30:46):
pencils are in there.
Now I just had her take onepencil and go back to work and
not say anything, because mycharacter doesn't really like to
rock the boat, she doesn't wantto get involved.
And that was one place that Icame back to and I was like you
know what this is really silly.
This is a perfect place for meto up the tension and actually
show a lot of the contention inthe office and kind of grow her
(31:09):
arc by giving her, you know, alittle bit more of a backbone
here and and so I had heractually confront the coworker
and they got into a spat andthen she goes back to her desk
to finish working, so stuff likethat.
Like if you're giving yourcharacter an easy way out into
something, or you're being toonice about something, or you're
avoiding a conflict becausemaybe you don't feel like
(31:30):
writing it that day, or maybeyou just wrote it and didn't
realize you could have had aconflict there, that's kind of
where I would suggest revisingand adding conflict and upping
the stakes and then also, if youalready have some stakes going
on, see if there's some way thatyou can add in additional like
plot points, that kind of keepthe stakes rising on the arc
(31:52):
versus like a lower arc, if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Any other questions?
Okay, someone wrote a questionin the chat.
Knowing, let me blow it upbecause my digit is terrible.
Knowing you do write fast.
How do you keep yourself fromprocrastinating?
Asking because it's a big issuefor me.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Cheryl says so, oh my gosh, writers love to
procrastinate, don't we?
I'm really good at it.
So basically, what I had tofigure out for myself was what
is my best writing time.
I am for the longest time wastrying to write like throughout
(32:36):
the day, or had a lot of friendsthat were like nighttime
writers.
So I thought like, oh, writerswrite at night, I should do that
.
But I am not like that at all.
I found that my best writingtime like my brain really works
super well is at like 630 in themorning.
I know that sounds horrendous,but it's still like quiet and
(32:56):
there, you know, no one's on theinternet yet, so there's no
distractions of social media orchecking your email or anything
like that.
So I think for me it wasfinding a good writing time that
I wouldn't have the outsideworld distractions.
I used to also use an app.
I think it was called Focus.
I think iPhones also and Maccomputers also have a focus
(33:21):
thing you can use to turn offthe world from your fingertips
while you're working.
But the other really great thingthat helps me is writing in
small increments.
So I'll set a timer for 15 or30 minutes and I will
specifically force myself not todo anything else but write
during that time period, andthen when the buzzer goes off, I
(33:44):
can get up and go look out thewindow or go do laundry or
whatever it is that is going onaround here, or check my email.
So I think that the timing hasreally helped too, because, you
know, people say like oh, Iwrote for three hours, or I
wrote for an hour.
I can't write for that long inone time.
So I mean I could do three 15minute sprints in an hour and
(34:09):
get more done in that time thanthree hours.
If I sat there because Ifigured out that the time was
just you know me writing for 15minutes and then staring off
into space for 15 minutes, Iwasn't really doing what I'm
supposed to be doing.
So I think setting a timer isreally really helpful.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
I love that.
Cheryl said thank you.
She's downloading the app rightnow.
Oh good, Any more questions?
You guys, you can just ask.
You don't have to raise a handor anything if you have any.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
I'm curious whether you wrote the historical fiction
first or the romance first.
Which did you start with andhow did you get to the other?
Speaker 3 (34:52):
I was kind of both, so I've always been in love with
, like, history and historicalthings, so I was always kind of
writing those stories.
My historic first historicalfiction didn't get published
till 2014.
But I'd been working on itsince 2009.
And prior to that, when I wasfirst starting out in 2006, I
actually dabbled with thrillerand fantasy.
(35:14):
I was really just trying tofigure out where my voice fit
the best and I ended up enteringa contest for a romance.
It was a time travel romance,so that was actually my first
story that got published was atime travel.
So it was a lot of playingaround and but I've always, like
, history has always been at theheart of my main writing, so I
(35:39):
think it was easier for me toget published with the romance
than it was the historicalfiction, just because it took so
long for me to write that firstbook love that, love that.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Do you have any um advice on characters, on writing
good characters?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
yeah.
So I think, like just writinggood characters takes a lot of
time and thought, and I am ahuge spreadsheet person I think
I mentioned that earlier so I'lldo like a spreadsheet for each
character and I really try tothink about, like, what are
their and what's that thing thatthey've always told themselves,
(36:16):
like what's the lie?
Um, so it's really just makingsure that the characters are
well balanced and, um, like realpeople, you know we're all
complicated, so I I'll even godown to like you know things
that might not even make it onthe page.
Like you know things that mightnot even make it on the page.
(36:36):
Like you know, one characterreally hates apples because you
know her parents never, you know, or she had to eat an apple
every day, or something likethat, like just silly things
like that.
But I think that makingcharacters that are complex and
interesting and also that peoplecan relate to so they have real
problems mixed in with maybethey're not so real problems,
but I think that's just like thebest thing is making them
(36:59):
authentic to the character or tothe reader so that they can,
you know, connect with them andnot, you know, I've read I've
read a lot of books lately whereI feel like people are writing
flatter characters and I don'tknow why that is, um, if maybe
it's like I hate to say thisbecause it makes me just sound
(37:20):
like I'm, like you know, an oldfuddy-duddy, I guess is what I
would say but like I thinksocial media, tiktok and Netflix
have like really, um, harmedpeople's attention to reading
books that take a long time.
You know they want like fastand so so that doesn't always
(37:40):
lend to like really complicatedcharacters, but I think
complicated characters thatpeople can relate to are
interesting.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
What makes a good villain or antagonist?
Speaker 3 (37:56):
what makes a good villain or antagonist?
Oh so I think a good villain orantagonist is whatever is
thwarting the character'sdeepest desire and always
getting in the way, so like.
Sometimes it's not even aperson, sometimes it's society.
So like in the ella and marilynbook, one of the biggest
villains there is society itself, and that was really really fun
to kind of weave that in thereand make sure that it was really
felt like that society isholding them back or society is
(38:20):
forcing them to do things ormake decisions that they didn't
want to.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
I love that.
So for historical novels, wetalked about the elements of a
good romance.
What are the elements of a goodhistorical novel?
Speaker 3 (38:34):
So the elements of a good historical novel are
obviously the history.
I always like to think of thehistory as one of the characters
.
So it's growing and changingand has its own you know arc as
you go through the story.
But it's woven in a way thatdoesn't feel like you're reading
a textbook.
It's gotta be just the flavorof it and you read it and you
(38:59):
don't even realize.
Oh, the author actually had toresearch that.
It's just a piece of it.
But also, the same thing I kindof mentioned earlier is like
characters that readers canconnect with in a way that they
understand to their own modernsensibilities kind of mentioned
earlier is like characters thatreaders can connect with on in a
(39:19):
way that they understand totheir own modern sensibilities.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Love that.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
What do you wish you knew before publication?
I wish I knew that I wasn'tgoing to be sitting in like my
beautiful attic Garrett, youknow, looking out on a lovely
landscape.
I wish that like fantasy ofwhat writers actually like do
wasn't false.
So I sit here in my reallydirty office because I've got
(39:47):
piles of papers and bookseverywhere and sticky notes and
actually put my computer infront of the window so I can't
like look out the window.
So that's one thing, but Iguess the other thing on a more
serious level is I didn'trealize that the job wasn't just
writing.
You know, I think I writeprobably only 50% of the time.
(40:10):
The other 50% is doing all ofthe you know promo work or you
know I guess editing is alsopart of the writing, but it's a
lot of like business stuff thatI didn't realize, that I would
have to know how to do stuff.
And you know accounting workand all of that, because you
(40:31):
know when you get paid as anauthor they don't take your
taxes out or anything.
So you have to make sure thatyou set aside part of your
royalties to pay your taxes andthen you've got expenses that
you need to reimburse yourselffor.
So I just think that I wasn'taware that I was going to be
only writing about half the timeand the rest of the time I was
going to be like a businessperson.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Now, with the promotion stuff that you talked
about, what are some of thethings that you have to do for
your traditional contracts withthe promotion versus the things
you do for your hybrid?
Speaker 3 (41:03):
promotion.
So that's a great question.
One of the biggest differencesthat I don't pay for advertising
for my traditional stuff.
I do have to pay foradvertising for my indie stuff,
my um traditional stuff.
I do have to pay foradvertising for my indie stuff.
I could um, I do occasionally,I guess boost a Facebook post if
I have like a new release, butthe promo work I normally do for
a traditional is a lot ofsocial media um and a lot of
(41:25):
sharing, because you'll have umlike an Instagram, um blog tour
or whatever, and when and whenpeople are posting about your
book, you want to make sure thatyou reshare and you say thank
you.
So it's a lot of like socialmedia promo work.
I think is the right way to saythat.
And I get and planning.
(41:47):
You know, I'm going to do thecover reveal and I need to ask
all of my friends to do thecover reveal for me and help me
out here and um, I want toorganize a giveaway.
So I'm I'm planning how I'mgoing to do this giveaway Um, I
don't have to ship the booksbecause the publisher will ship
the books, fortunately, for thegiveaway Um, whereas with the
(42:08):
indie stuff I have to do theshipping for that too.
Um, so it's not that muchdifference.
I think the biggest differenceis that with the indie I'm
paying for it, whereas with thetraditional I'm not necessarily
paying for it.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Now, with the giveaways, do you have to?
I mean, do you do those inconjunction with your publisher
or do you just say I'm doing agiveaway?
How does that work?
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Kind of both.
So I'll email and say um, Ihave, you know, 10 historical
fiction author friends that umare willing to send out a book
to one of their readers for thisbig giveaway.
Um, so would you be willing toship those books for me?
And then they usually say yes.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Okay, that's cool.
Yeah, anybody else have anyquestions?
Just jump in.
You have to raise your hand oranything.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
If you have one, it's not a lather on um, I'm
wondering whether you write onebook at a time or whether you
write multiple books, like hopbetween several at a time.
That's a great.
It seems like you're soprolific yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
So, um, at any given time I am working on multiple
books not writing multiple books, though, so I'm always writing
one, I'm always editing one, I'malways promoting one, and I'm
always trying to put together aproposal for the next pitch.
And then you're also, you know,trying to, um, boost your
(43:30):
backlist, so you kind of have tojuggle all of those things.
Um, so, you know, trying toboost your backlist, so you kind
of have to juggle all of thosethings.
So, you know, if, let's say,okay, right now I am working on
revising a draft that is due inJune 15th or 14th, it's due in
June, next month, ah, it's kindof scary, but I'm also editing a
(43:50):
book that I wrote months agoand just got the edits back.
So, having to do that, and thenI'm working on a pitch with
another friend of mine whowanted to try her hand at
co-authoring, so that'ssomething that I'm doing.
And then I have a book comingout next month with my publisher
, so I'm promoting that, and atthe same time, next month with
(44:14):
my publisher, so I'm promotingthat, and at the same time I'm
also promoting Can't we BeFriends, which came out in March
.
So it's a lot of juggling, ifthat makes sense.
But I'm only actively writing,like the book I'm revising
that's due in June.
I finished the draft but I'mlike doing my whole, like
editing, revising stuff, makingit not garbage.
(44:44):
What do you think you did rightthat helped you make it?
Oh, wow, um, I think justlearning.
Um, I think it's reallyimportant, no matter where you
are in your writing career, toalways be reading and learning
the craft, because, even if it'sjust like a brush up, you might
be like, oh my gosh, I totallyforgot about that.
I should be doing that.
Um, but I and and reading issuper, super important.
But I think just keeping upwith learning what is important
(45:07):
and what's not, and trying tojust better, better, better my
writing I think Love that, lovethat.
Any advice for aspiring authors?
Yeah, I think the best advice Ican give you is that you need
(45:30):
to not stop I wouldn't say everyday, because I don't write
seven days a week, but I thinkat least three to five days a
week be sitting in front of thatmanuscript, be putting words on
the page, even if you thinkthey're total garbage.
You can fix garbage, but youcan't fix anything that you
haven't written.
So I really think that my bestpiece of advice is to actually
(45:52):
sit down and do the work anddon't like discourage yourself
from it.
I think all of us, even myselfincluded, can say like oh, why
are you doing this?
Why are you bothering?
This is terrible.
Just ignore that person.
They are a bully.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
I love that answer, by the way, best piece of
writing advice you've heard, Ilove that answer.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
By the way, best piece of writing advice you've
heard, um, oh well, one of myit's from my friend, um
Stephanie.
She's a historical fictionwriter and one of the best
things that she said was um, youcould just make that up,
because sometimes, like, we'lllike get really, really into
like the research part of it andget stuck for days.
(46:36):
I need to find this fact.
I need to find this fact In oneof my books.
I needed to figure out whetherthe floors were linoleum or some
other material.
Actually it was.
Can't we Be Friends?
It was when Marilyn was in thehospital and I was like I need
to know what the floor is,because she's sitting on the
floor and I've got to know.
And I was like I need to knowwhat the floor is because she's
sitting on the floor and I'vegot to know.
And I was like researching it.
I even called like a doctor tofind out what the floors were in
(46:57):
the sixties and they're like Idon't know.
And I was like this is terrible.
And so it was hours of work onthis floor.
And then it's like okay,remember, you can just make it
up.
And I was like, oh, she wasjust on the glossy floor.
Glossy floor, that's it Done.
(47:18):
So just not like obsessing overstuff.
Love that.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
So what tools are there?
Any tools or websites or booksor anything that you found most
helpful, either like now or whenyou were first starting out?
Speaker 3 (47:34):
Oh yeah, one of my favorite books and I still look
at it every once in a while nowis called Writing the Breakout
Novel and it's by Donald Mossand it's so good, Like that
Anthony's question earlier aboutupping the stakes, if you
haven't read that book, thatbook has great advice on upping
the stakes in scenes Reallyreally good.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
Awesome.
Anybody else have any morequestions?
What is the worst piece ofadvice you have gotten?
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Another really great question.
I'll have to think about that.
I think one of the worst piecesof advice I've ever gotten was
right to trend.
Because the issue is, ifsomething's really hot right now
and you're like, okay, I'mgoing to write to trend, first
of all you have to figure out,like, how to write that Like.
If I were to like suddenlydecide to write like um, like
(48:29):
fourth wing style stuff,romanticy, or whatever it's
called, um, I don't know how todo that, so it would take me a
while to figure that out.
And then by the time I likewrote the book enough that
someone would want to look at it, and then it was.
You know, let's say, they didbuy it eventually, and then I
wrote the book, and then it'sedited.
It's like three years from nowbefore that book hits the
shelves, and at that point thattrend could have been over like
(48:54):
a year or two ago hopefully not,because everybody loves
romanticy.
But I'm just saying like, don'twrite to trend unless it's
something you love, because youmight not love it.
And then it's a lot of work andthen it ends up bombing because
it's not a trend anymore.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Have there been any recent historical trends that
you're aware of?
Speaker 3 (49:15):
have there been any recent historical trends that
you're aware of?
So world war ii is a hugehistorical trend, um, and they
keep saying it's dying, and Ithink that readers are getting a
little bit um worn out by it,but at the same time, you still
have those rabid readers thatlove it.
I used to write tutorhistorical novels and they told
me that was dead.
But, um, people are like stillask me like, are you going to
write more Tudor?
I love Tudor, so I don't knowif that's true or not either,
(49:38):
but, um, it seems like right now, bookshops are a huge trend, um
, and it's kind of like likeit's getting like a little bit
gluttonous, so I'm not sure ifthat's something that's going to
pop soon.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
What are you working on now?
Speaker 3 (49:54):
So right now I am working on a.
It's actually a contemporarynovel under a different name
that's due in June and I'mpretty excited about it.
It's called Rush Week and it'sabout four sorority sisters who
when they were in college kindof gotten to some issues and now
they're, you know, aftergraduating and and starting
families and things are beingrecalled to an alumni event, um,
(50:18):
to kind of contend with thesesecrets that they've been
holding love that.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Thank you, what's up?
Well, where I'm tripping overmy tongue, where can everybody
connect with you?
Speaker 3 (50:33):
so, um, I um, I'm pretty much everywhere.
Um, I'm on Instagram Elizanight fiction, uh, facebook,
same thing.
I go on Twitter every once in awhile, but I'm not really big
on there.
Um, I have a Tik TOK account,but I'm not great at it, and my
website, I guess, is Elizanightcom, but like, you'll find
my stuff there, but I'm notpersonally there.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
Anything you want to say in closing.
Speaker 3 (50:56):
I just just that.
I wish you guys luck with yourwriting.
Don't give up.
You, you know, just a page at atime, a chapter at a time,
you'll eventually get there andjust keep going and and don't
you know, don't let anyone tellyou that you're not good enough.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Cheryl said thank you so much.
This has been super helpful.
You've been delightful.
Thank everybody for coming andthank you so much, Eliza.
We've learned a lot.
We've had a good chat, Goodtalk.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
Good, it's my pleasure.
I'm so glad to be here with youguys.
Thank you I enjoyed it.
Speaker 6 (51:28):
That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD
Mayer.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
jdmayercom.
That's jdmayercom.
(51:48):
While you're there, join JDd'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
Welcome to Craft Chat Chronicles, the go-to podcast
for tips on craftingbest-selling fiction.
Here at Craft Chat Chronicles,we bring you expert interviews,
insights and tips on writing,publishing and marketing.
For workshops, show notes andmore information, visit
(00:25):
jdmyhallcom.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
In season two, episode nine of Craft Chat
Chronicles, we get chatty withUSA Today bestselling author
Eliza Knight.
This is season two, episodenine of Craft Chat Chronicles.
Eliza Knight.
This is season two, episodenine of Craft Chat Chronicles.
Let's get chatty.
Hi and welcome to tonight'sCraft Chat.
Tonight we are thrilled towelcome Eliza Knight, a USA
Today bestselling authorcelebrated for her captivating
(00:57):
historical fiction.
Tonight Eliza is going to talkabout her newest novel Can't we
Be Friends?
And she's going to talk aboutwriting craft historical fiction
and her journey through thepublishing world.
Welcome, eliza, thank you somuch.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I was turning around to grab a copy of Can't we Be
Friends, but just realized mybookshelf is empty because I
packed it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
We're in the midst of a move, but I have a little
bookmark here so you can see thecover.
How did you start yourpublishing journey?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
So that is a really good question.
My publishing journey startedwhen I was a child.
Actually, I always had wantedto write stories and so when I
was in second grade I wrote abook like a little children's
book called the Mouse who Stolethe Cheese, and it had like its
own cardboard cover and myteacher told my parents I was
going to be an author one dayand they were like, oh, that's
so cute.
And then in third grade I had astory published in a charity
(01:57):
anthology and I just kind oflike continued my writing
journey from there.
When I was in high school Iwrote for my high school
newspaper.
I became the editor, and then Iwent to college for journalism
originally, and I studiedjournalism for two years before
I realized I didn't want towrite like facts, which is
ironic considering I writebiographical fiction, which is
(02:19):
facts.
I wanted to have like thatcreative power to write fiction.
So I said to my parents I'mswitching majors to English and
they said, no way, you need areal job when you graduate.
And I was like, well, thatsucks.
So I did get a job in ourdegree in family studies, which
(02:40):
is like psychology, social work,education, and I worked in
mental health for a little while, but all the while I was still
like writing on the side justfor fun, because it's always
just been a part of who I am andI love just the process of
creating stories and charactersand then sharing them with
people.
And so probably six years or sointo that career, I was like you
(03:01):
know what?
This isn't what I want to do.
I'm taking control of my lifeand I am going to write a book.
So I started writing forpublication in 2006 and I was
entering a lot of contests andgetting a lot of feedback and
taking classes and things likethat, and my first short story
was published in 2008.
(03:21):
And it's kind of just been likea whirlwind of writing ever
since then.
I got my first agent shortlyafter that and I'm now what you
would consider a hybrid author.
So I have several traditionalcontracts and then I also have
several books that I've writtenand published myself and I
(03:42):
really like being firmly in bothworlds.
So if anyone ever has anyquestions about being hybrid or
anything like that, I'm alwaysopen to those sorts of questions
.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Oh, I love that.
We'll definitely be gettinginto that soon.
How did you get your currentagent?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
So the agent I have right now.
We've been together since 2010.
And my first agent I was onlywith for about a year and it
just turned out like it wasn't agood fit, and at the time I was
looking for another agent and afriend of mine had said well,
my agent loves historical, soyou should reach out to her.
And it was an agent that I hadon a list of agents to query
(04:24):
before I got my other agent andthen I hadn't done that one yet.
So I was very excited to havethe opportunity to chat with her
and she asked me to send herpartial, which I did, and she
loved it.
So we ended up working togetherand we've been together ever
since.
That's awesome, how many years.
So I guess like 14.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Oh, that's really awesome.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
How many years?
So I guess like 14.
Oh, that's really awesome.
Yeah, yeah, she's, she's great.
And I always tell everyone Ifeel like having an agent is
like committing almost to like amarriage, you know, because,
like this person, they, um, theyknow all your financial
information, they hold yourmoney for you, they, they make
sure you get paid, um, they,they hold your hand when you're
upset about rejections or theyhigh five you when you know
(05:07):
you've got some good news.
So if you really want to bewith someone that you can trust
and that you can feel like it'sgoing to give you that feedback,
that, and not just be sort oflike blase about it or not
interested.
I've had several friends who'vehad that experience and,
honestly, my first agent, likewe weren't a good fit, like
blase about it or not interested.
I've had several friends who'vehad that experience and,
honestly, my first agent, likewe weren't a good fit.
(05:29):
Like you know, she just reallydidn't like my stories, which is
funny because, like I don'tknow why she signed with me to
begin with.
But it happens.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
So how did you get into co-writing with Danny S
Bryce?
How did you guys meet?
How did you um get intoco-writing with Denny S Bryce?
How did you guys meet?
How did you guys end upco-writing a novel?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
yeah.
So, um, denny and I have beenfriends for a really long time.
I think we met originally inabout maybe it was 2009.
We were both along to theMaryland romance writers and the
Washington romance writers, sowe saw each other a lot at
different meetings and we wouldgo to conferences together.
And um, we, since we lived soclose by and like formed like a
friendship, we started writingtogether.
(06:12):
About once a month we wouldjust get together to like do
write-ins, have lunch, drinksome wine, gossip, things like
that.
And um, I was already co-writingsome books with some other
authors.
Some we called them like novelsin part, so it was like six of
us that would write one novel.
We wrote A Day of Fire and AYear of Ravens and Ribbons of
(06:36):
Scarlet just same like a coupleof those and so when I was
chatting with Denny, she waslike I would love to write a
novel together.
So we kind of like alwaysthought about that and sometimes
when we'd be getting togetherfor our write-ins, we would just
like jump down rabbit holes andon one particular write-in
during our lunch, we were likethinking about different clubs
(06:58):
in LA on the Sunset Strip Likeat first it was the 70s, which
ended up being kind of funnybecause we did have a little bit
of our book be in the 70s, butwe were looking at the Macombo
Club, which hosted like a lot ofreally famous singers and
entertainers, and we came acrossthe story of Ella Fitzgerald
and Marilyn Monroe having metand that Marilyn assisted Ella
(07:20):
in getting her first gig at theMacombo Club.
So we're like, oh, that'sreally interesting, like we
didn't know that they werefriends.
And so we kind of like dug alittle bit deeper into that
friendship and we found anadvertisement for an album
called the Friends Albumactually, that they were going
to sing together and the albumnever came to fruition.
(07:42):
So that put in our minds a bigquestion like why this was a
contracted album with RCARecords.
It was printed in the paperthat they were going to do it.
What happened?
And there's a couple of reasonsfor it not happening, mostly
having to do with some of themanagers on Marilyn Monroe's
side side, but the friendshipnevertheless was just something
(08:06):
that really fascinated us, andso we were like you know what we
need to write about this?
I think this would be a greatstory to share and a lot of fun
to do together.
So we jumped right into it.
Well, sort of we jumped intothe research of it, but we both
had other contracts, so it tookus about two years before we
could actually start puttingtogether a proposal to send to
our agents.
But eventually we did, and thenthey loved it.
So we ended up getting apitching it out to different
(08:29):
editors and it went to auctionbecause a couple different
editors wanted to buy it, andthe rest is history.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Now how does that work when there's two agents
involved with the sale?
How do you discern, determinewhich agent sends it out, and
submission and stuff?
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah.
So we we figured out from theget-go that we were going to use
my agent because she hadcontacts at the publishers that
we really wanted to see ifthey'd be interested in the book
.
So that was pretty much thereason we decided that, because
she just had more contacts there.
And I think that's usually whatends up happening is you pick
(09:04):
the agent who would have morecontact and be able to get in
touch with them and kind ofwield like their powers in the
in the editor space or whatever.
And so she was the point person.
But Denny's agent was involvedthe whole way, so like we would
all four of us get on the phoneto chat about everything.
So like we would all four of usget on the phone to chat about
(09:24):
everything.
And so it wasn't like one agentwas just in charge and Denny's
agent still got paid the 15% ofher portion as well.
So it was just like a pointperson, kind of like how, if you
do a group project, you say, ok, you're going to be the speaker
, but we're all going to do thework together.
We just have like appointed aspeaker.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
That's basically how it was.
And how was it with the writing.
Did you guys, like each take acharacter, did you?
How did you do that?
Speaker 3 (09:50):
So, yeah, we each took a character Denny did
Ella's voice and I did Marilyn'svoice and we would switch back
and forth with the chapter.
So when one of us would write achapter, we'd send it to the
other and we'd edit it, and backand forth, like that.
And then if the scenes had thecharacters in it together, we
actually wrote those scenestogether so that the character
voices would remain authentic ineach chapter, no matter which
(10:13):
one of us was, you know, incharge of that chapter.
So it was really fun.
We did that a lot on GoogleDocs.
We were on Zoom a lot.
We had about 18,000spreadsheets that we used to
keep track of all theinformation and timelines and
characters and themes and all ofthat.
So it's a lot of planning whenyou go into writing a book with
(10:36):
someone else, because you haveto make sure that you're all on
the same page and that you'regetting the information from the
same place, and that also thatyour chapters match in theme,
because you don't want it to notmake sense.
Basically is really important.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
And did you guys ever like disagree on anything?
How did you?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah, so the only thing we ever really like I
don't even necessarily think itwas like a disagreement but one
thing Denny always says is thatI write so fast and she's she's
not really a new writer.
She keeps calling herself a newwriter but she's had like seven
contracts at this point.
So I think she's, you know,very well established and she's
(11:19):
been in the writing space for areally long time.
But I just write really fastand so I know that that was a
problem, because I'd be likehere's my chapter and she's like
, wait, I'm only on, you know,page one of mine and I'm like,
oh, my God, sorry.
So that was like just one thing, was like learning each other's
pace so that I wasn'toverwhelming her and and she
(11:41):
wasn't making me feel like, youknow, she wasn't going fast
enough or something like that.
So just like those little minorthings and it really wasn't a
big deal.
The biggest problem that we hadwith the book was actually when
we got our edits back.
Our editor wanted us to cut thefirst 150 pages and you guys
are all writers, exactly, ouch,I pretty much cried, denny like
(12:05):
cursed, and we were like whythis is horrible.
We spent so much time writingit.
That's such a huge chunk of thebook, but in the end it ended
up working out really wellbecause those first 150 pages
actually allowed us to get toknow the two women very well,
and so it I like to think of itas like an exercise, even though
(12:27):
it was a very long and painfulexercise to cut, but it helped
us really get into theirheadspace, I think.
So in the end the book isbetter for it, and we were able
to beef up a lot of the laterchapters from cutting all of
that and having extra word space.
So that was the biggest thing.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Love that.
How do you keep the dialogue inhistorical fiction like
relatable to modern audiences,but still authentic?
That is such a good question.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
So I think keeping it relatable is it's a lot easier,
I think, than it sounds, justbecause people back in history
whether you're talking aboutlike the 1700s or you know 1900s
or whatever people's problemshaven't really changed that much
(13:16):
.
And a lot of our book is aboutlike friendship.
So there's friendship themes inyou know all realms, but and
then obviously, like there's alot of racial contention in our
book as well that Ella's havingto deal with and that's
something that you know Blackwomen are still dealing with
today.
So there's a lot and thatcarries over.
(13:38):
And you know the issues withwomen in the workplace in the
1950s.
Like we have come far.
We can now get credit cards.
You know that happened in the1950s.
Like we have come far, we cannow get credit cards.
You know that happened in the70s.
So that's nice.
But there's still things thatwomen are really trying hard to
work for.
So I think that those themessort of carry through all time
periods and readers of today canconnect with those things as
(14:00):
well.
But remaining authentic isreally just like making sure
that we stayed true to thecharacters and their histories
and what they were going through, and I think it's just you know
, something that anyone canreally connect with.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Love that Were you shy or scared about approaching
race in the novel.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yes, mostly because, as a white person, I obviously
haven't dealt with racial issuesmyself, so I was very, very
conscious of that and Denny issuch a wonderful person so, like
her and I had so manyconversations about it and very
like open dialogue, which wasreally really nice because I
(14:42):
learned a lot and then you know,obviously we're able to share
that with readers.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
That is really cool.
What are the benefits and thedrawbacks to co-writing?
Speaker 3 (14:55):
So the benefits, the benefits that I we always think
that there might be aren't isn'treally a benefit.
So one of them is that youthink like, oh, I only have to
write half a book.
Or if you've got more than oneuh co-writer, you're like, oh, I
only have to write a third or aquarter or six of this book,
which is not really true becauseeven though you might only be
(15:15):
in charge of a certain wordcount, you still have to read
and edit and be, like you know,knowledgeable of what is
happening in the rest of thestory.
So it's still just as much work.
But the benefit is that you getto share that in all of the
excitement with a writingpartner you get to share, and
also the crying like if youreditor says to cut 150 pages.
(15:38):
And then also the fun part isthat we got to do different
events together.
So getting to travel together,getting to you know, geek out
about history with and writingwith you know people at the same
time that has really been veryrewarding.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Awesome.
Yeah, what do you think are theessential elements of a good
first page?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
So I think the essential elements of a first
page is really hooking thereader.
Obviously, right from the firstsentence you really want to
draw them in by asking a youknow question, like forming
questions in their, in thereader's mind by what's
happening on that page and Ithink also introducing the main
character and so you get a tastefor who they are and their
(16:24):
personality and then maybe alittle hint of what their goal
is.
But the major thing is reallyintroducing those questions and
hooks that are going to keep thereader going on to page two.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
And how do you avoid the saggy middle?
The dreaded saggy middle?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
The saggy middle is so hard.
No matter how many books you'vewritten, it's always the same.
It's such a struggle.
So for me, I think the I justgo back to do I need more
conflict.
Um, if it's getting kind ofboring and I'm feeling like it's
stagnant and I'm not goinganywhere, then maybe I need to
introduce some conflict, ormaybe I need to beef up my
actual plot or like heighten thestakes, um.
(17:03):
So I usually just go back andtry to read through and figure
out if there's something I cando to make it more exciting, and
that's pretty much my thing.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
And how do you craft an engaging ending?
Speaker 3 (17:18):
The endings are also really hard.
So I think, like crafting anengaging ending, I really try to
make sure that I at least forme personally, I don't leave any
books on a cliffhanger.
So any of the questions I'veintroduced throughout the entire
novel, I really try to makesure I've wrapped those up at
the end and I want to say that Ileave the reader satisfied,
(17:39):
except that, you know, in somestories it's not always a
satisfying ending, but at leastit's satisfying enough.
I guess is the way I say it.
Like, for example, my book, theMayfair Bookshop.
My heroine has a really bigstruggle and at the end she
doesn't get what she wants butshe's happy with where her life
(17:59):
is headed.
So there's that.
And then, of course, in Can'twe Be Friends everybody knows
Marilyn Monroe doesn't make it.
I mean that's, you know it wasvery hard and very tragic and
for us one of the things that wewanted to do was not put that
on the page.
So you kind of leave off with alittle bit of hope, even though
(18:20):
you know it's not going to endup happening, even though you
know it's not going to end uphappening.
So we wanted to leave the booksort of like on an uplifting
note kind of At least not makepeople just like cry at the end,
I mean maybe they did?
I don't know, but I thinkthat's the best thing is just
(18:41):
making sure that you've wrappedeverything up and not left your
reader like, okay, well, whathappened to?
Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
How did you guys tackle the revisions?
How many revisions did thenovel take?
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Oh my gosh, prior to the 150 page cut, I think that
we rewrote and revised probablylike four or five times.
Denny has a really greatediting system.
That we did and it really madethe sentences very tight and
flowy and she's really reallygood at writing rhythmically, so
(19:13):
we worked a lot on that.
What is that?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
system like how does that work?
Speaker 3 (19:19):
It's just like layering back and forth.
So, like you know, you firstwrite like a very bare bones,
kind of like just spitting itout, and then going in and like
adding in the details and kindof like massaging things, seeing
if you've written any themesinto the novel that you maybe
weren't aware of whichdefinitely happens a lot and
then kind of seeing if thosework and how you can exploit
(19:41):
those in other ways.
And then looking at like she'sreally much better at it than I
am, of like writing like these,like lyrical, rhythmic sentences
that like she'll read it outloud and like count the beats
and then see like if she canchange the sentence in a way to
make it flow with this beat,which is really cool.
(20:04):
So there was a lot like thatand then just really tightening
the sentences a lot, which youknow we used like Grammarly and
stuff like that, to kind oftighten stuff up.
And then we had, I think, threeor four beta readers go through
it and then we would take theirsuggestions and rewrite again.
(20:24):
And then after the 150 pages,it was pretty much the same
thing because we had to rewriteand add in some scenes.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
So we just went through those things over again
(22:07):
um, you talked about your threeor four beta readers.
How did you, how did you selectyour beta readers and how do
you know what feedback toincorporate versus what doesn't
work?
How do you decide that?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
so, um, we each picked, like two of our own
people that normally read ourwork, so they're familiar with
them, and, um, the one thingthat's really important about
beta readers, I think, is thatyou find someone that you can
trust that's going to give youfeedback.
They're not afraid to give yougood feedback, because you know
it doesn't help if they're like,oh, loved it, great, but
(22:37):
they're not mean either, like Ihave had a mean critique partner
before and I just felt liketerrible about my writing every
time.
So I think finding someone thatyou can trust and that is like
that happy balance forconstructive criticism is really
good.
So we just picked two peoplethat we're familiar with and
then they read the whole bookand they gave the feedback.
(22:58):
And normally what I like to dois if more than one person says
like, hey, this scene is anissue, or I'm not getting the
motivation here, or thischaracter is kind of falling
flat, something like that, thenI will definitely beef it up.
If it's just one person, I'llreread it and see if I can do
(23:20):
something to make it better,unless I just don't agree.
Sometimes people are like, oh,you should have her do this.
No, thanks, that's not part ofthe story and then word choice
and things like that.
It's always subjective, so I'llthink about do I like that or
don't I like it?
It's basically just like apersonal like choice.
Unless more than one personsays the same thing, then I
(23:42):
really I'm like okay, if twopeople are pointing this out,
it's an issue.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Love that you write romance as well.
What?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
are some tips for writing a juicy and good romance
novel.
So obviously with romance, the,the whole point is like the
relationship and getting to thathappily ever after or the
happily for now.
But the fun part of reading theromance is thinking like you
know, why should these two betogether and why can't they be
together, and like basicallyfiguring out ways to keep them
apart the whole time.
And then there's like, oh,they're going to get together.
(24:16):
Nope, they're not.
So like a lot of the back andforth is fun, but also adding in
all of that tension and youknow the flirting I love like a
good banter session and I thinkjust like heightening it that
way with a lot of like chatterand body language and things
like that.
Of course in romance there'salso the love scenes as well
(24:39):
that readers seem to reallyenjoy.
So there's that.
But I think for me that the thebest part of making it a juicy
novel is really just that backand forth, tension like that,
the chase and the fun of thegame of like figuring out
whether or not two people aregoing to be together and for
people who aren't likenecessarily romance readers what
does tension look like inromance?
(25:00):
so it's like, um a perfectexample.
If anyone here has ever watchedthe kira knightley pride and
prejudice movie, um, it's whenhe gets out of the car and their
fingers like happen to brushand he like squeezes his hand
really tight because, oh my god,our fingers just touched.
That's basically what it lookslike you mentioned that you're a
(25:23):
hybrid.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
How did you your path , your hybrid path, begin and
tell us a little bit more aboutthat experience.
What are the benefits, therewards and the challenges of
being a hybrid?
Author.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
So my hybrid career started actually back in 2010.
I was originally published bytwo small presses and I had no
idea what royalties were goingto look like.
And I was very disappointed,because when I started writing
and the small presses werereally electronic book presses
(25:59):
back in 2008, people didn'treally read on e-readers all
that much.
There was a Sony e-reader.
I'm not even sure the Kindlewas a thing back then, but it
wasn't working out for me.
And then in 2010, amazon openedup the, the self publishing
platform, and I thought, well,you know what, maybe I'll just
(26:20):
get my rights back from thosestories they're not making money
anyway and I maybe I can do abetter job and so I published
them on.
I think I got the rights backfor seven stories and I
published them on Kindle and inthe first month I made more
money than I'd made in like twoyears with the publisher.
So I thought, well, this isreally interesting.
(26:41):
And so I thought, well, maybeI'll try writing a book that I
don't send out to a publisher,just write one for myself.
So I did that in 2012.
At the time, I was still withtwo other small presses
publishing through them as well,so I was doing both.
And when my novel came out in2012, the first one that I did
(27:04):
on my own it went very well andI was like really excited about
that.
So I was like really excitedabout that.
So I was like you know what.
I think I'm just gonna keepdoing both and um, at some point
I want to say maybe 2016 one ofmy publishers went defunct, so
I got all of those books backand I put those up as well.
Um, but I've always just reallyfirmly believed in doing both.
(27:26):
I think that writers shouldhave the ability to do both, and
if you're willing to do both,why not?
I like having my hands in allof the different pots, so I do a
lot of traditional audio aswell, and it's different for
romance, because I think you canfind a bigger readership with
(27:49):
Kindle and things like that thatare more indie, whereas
historical fiction the readersare much more likely to buy a
paperback and unfortunately Ican't get the kind of
distribution that a publisherhas.
So I still like to publishtraditionally with those because
I can get in front of readersmore than I could if I did it
independently.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
And how do you market and promote your independent
books?
Speaker 3 (28:13):
So I do a lot of advertising.
I love BookBub, I have usedAmazon ads before and then I use
Facebook ads and things likethat, and then I have a
newsletter.
So I obviously send out to mynewsletter and then I'm pretty
big on social media as well,because I feel like that's one
of the ways to reach out to yourreaders and kind of keep in
(28:33):
touch and and they likefollowing you on there and
seeing what you're up to andthen if you comment and they
comment back they, they.
It's a nice exchange and a wayto like show appreciation for
them reading your books lovethat.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
What's?
What are the differences?
What do you like better, whatdo you like worse?
About traditional versus indieokay.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
So I love with traditional that I'm just really
in charge of writing andpromoting the book.
Um, I don't have to find theeditor.
I don't have to find the copyeditors.
I don't have to hire the artdesigners.
I don't have to hire the artdesigners.
I don't have to be in charge ofall of the nitty gritty things
which, with self-publishing, Ido have to do that and it just
(29:16):
takes a lot of time.
I have to do the formatting, Ihave to do all the uploading,
pricing and things like that.
So it's just really time that Idon't enjoy.
And then with traditional, likeI said, I really enjoy the
benefits of being in bookstoresand having a wider reach and
then, you know, having theirmarketing expertise as well.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
I love that.
Do any of you guys have anyquestions?
Okay, cool Hi.
Speaker 5 (29:44):
Well, thank you for being here.
So I had a question about thesoggy middle.
I know you said you go back andthink, well, should I raise the
stakes or heighten the plot?
Could you talk more on that?
How have you done thatpersonally in one of your books?
Speaker 3 (29:59):
So I'll talk about a book I'm actually working on
right now.
I just keep going back andthinking, okay, am I taking the
easy way out in this situation,or could I introduce a like an
issue and then resolve it to bewhere I am right now?
So, for example, this is goingto sound silly, but so my
character she is a copy editorand she has a lot of contention
(30:25):
with people at work, includingthis one girl who's always kind
of backstabbing her, and she hasthese special red pencils that
she special ordered for her copyediting.
And when she gets to work oneday, her pencils are gone, and
so she goes over to her coworkers desk and she opens the
drawer because she's not inthere and she notices that her
(30:46):
pencils are in there.
Now I just had her take onepencil and go back to work and
not say anything, because mycharacter doesn't really like to
rock the boat, she doesn't wantto get involved.
And that was one place that Icame back to and I was like you
know what this is really silly.
This is a perfect place for meto up the tension and actually
show a lot of the contention inthe office and kind of grow her
(31:09):
arc by giving her, you know, alittle bit more of a backbone
here and and so I had heractually confront the coworker
and they got into a spat andthen she goes back to her desk
to finish working, so stuff likethat.
Like if you're giving yourcharacter an easy way out into
something, or you're being toonice about something, or you're
avoiding a conflict becausemaybe you don't feel like
(31:30):
writing it that day, or maybeyou just wrote it and didn't
realize you could have had aconflict there, that's kind of
where I would suggest revisingand adding conflict and upping
the stakes and then also, if youalready have some stakes going
on, see if there's some way thatyou can add in additional like
plot points, that kind of keepthe stakes rising on the arc
(31:52):
versus like a lower arc, if thatmakes sense.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Any other questions?
Okay, someone wrote a questionin the chat.
Knowing, let me blow it upbecause my digit is terrible.
Knowing you do write fast.
How do you keep yourself fromprocrastinating?
Asking because it's a big issuefor me.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Cheryl says so, oh my gosh, writers love to
procrastinate, don't we?
I'm really good at it.
So basically, what I had tofigure out for myself was what
is my best writing time.
I am for the longest time wastrying to write like throughout
(32:36):
the day, or had a lot of friendsthat were like nighttime
writers.
So I thought like, oh, writerswrite at night, I should do that
.
But I am not like that at all.
I found that my best writingtime like my brain really works
super well is at like 630 in themorning.
I know that sounds horrendous,but it's still like quiet and
(32:56):
there, you know, no one's on theinternet yet, so there's no
distractions of social media orchecking your email or anything
like that.
So I think for me it wasfinding a good writing time that
I wouldn't have the outsideworld distractions.
I used to also use an app.
I think it was called Focus.
I think iPhones also and Maccomputers also have a focus
(33:21):
thing you can use to turn offthe world from your fingertips
while you're working.
But the other really great thingthat helps me is writing in
small increments.
So I'll set a timer for 15 or30 minutes and I will
specifically force myself not todo anything else but write
during that time period, andthen when the buzzer goes off, I
(33:44):
can get up and go look out thewindow or go do laundry or
whatever it is that is going onaround here, or check my email.
So I think that the timing hasreally helped too, because, you
know, people say like oh, Iwrote for three hours, or I
wrote for an hour.
I can't write for that long inone time.
So I mean I could do three 15minute sprints in an hour and
(34:09):
get more done in that time thanthree hours.
If I sat there because Ifigured out that the time was
just you know me writing for 15minutes and then staring off
into space for 15 minutes, Iwasn't really doing what I'm
supposed to be doing.
So I think setting a timer isreally really helpful.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
I love that.
Cheryl said thank you.
She's downloading the app rightnow.
Oh good, Any more questions?
You guys, you can just ask.
You don't have to raise a handor anything if you have any.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
I'm curious whether you wrote the historical fiction
first or the romance first.
Which did you start with andhow did you get to the other?
Speaker 3 (34:52):
I was kind of both, so I've always been in love with
, like, history and historicalthings, so I was always kind of
writing those stories.
My historic first historicalfiction didn't get published
till 2014.
But I'd been working on itsince 2009.
And prior to that, when I wasfirst starting out in 2006, I
actually dabbled with thrillerand fantasy.
(35:14):
I was really just trying tofigure out where my voice fit
the best and I ended up enteringa contest for a romance.
It was a time travel romance,so that was actually my first
story that got published was atime travel.
So it was a lot of playingaround and but I've always, like
, history has always been at theheart of my main writing, so I
(35:39):
think it was easier for me toget published with the romance
than it was the historicalfiction, just because it took so
long for me to write that firstbook love that, love that.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Do you have any um advice on characters, on writing
good characters?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
yeah.
So I think, like just writinggood characters takes a lot of
time and thought, and I am ahuge spreadsheet person I think
I mentioned that earlier so I'lldo like a spreadsheet for each
character and I really try tothink about, like, what are
their and what's that thing thatthey've always told themselves,
(36:16):
like what's the lie?
Um, so it's really just makingsure that the characters are
well balanced and, um, like realpeople, you know we're all
complicated, so I I'll even godown to like you know things
that might not even make it onthe page.
Like you know things that mightnot even make it on the page.
(36:36):
Like you know, one characterreally hates apples because you
know her parents never, you know, or she had to eat an apple
every day, or something likethat, like just silly things
like that.
But I think that makingcharacters that are complex and
interesting and also that peoplecan relate to so they have real
problems mixed in with maybethey're not so real problems,
but I think that's just like thebest thing is making them
(36:59):
authentic to the character or tothe reader so that they can,
you know, connect with them andnot, you know, I've read I've
read a lot of books lately whereI feel like people are writing
flatter characters and I don'tknow why that is, um, if maybe
it's like I hate to say thisbecause it makes me just sound
(37:20):
like I'm, like you know, an oldfuddy-duddy, I guess is what I
would say but like I thinksocial media, tiktok and Netflix
have like really, um, harmedpeople's attention to reading
books that take a long time.
You know they want like fastand so so that doesn't always
(37:40):
lend to like really complicatedcharacters, but I think
complicated characters thatpeople can relate to are
interesting.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
What makes a good villain or antagonist?
Speaker 3 (37:56):
what makes a good villain or antagonist?
Oh so I think a good villain orantagonist is whatever is
thwarting the character'sdeepest desire and always
getting in the way, so like.
Sometimes it's not even aperson, sometimes it's society.
So like in the ella and marilynbook, one of the biggest
villains there is society itself, and that was really really fun
to kind of weave that in thereand make sure that it was really
felt like that society isholding them back or society is
(38:20):
forcing them to do things ormake decisions that they didn't
want to.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
I love that.
So for historical novels, wetalked about the elements of a
good romance.
What are the elements of a goodhistorical novel?
Speaker 3 (38:34):
So the elements of a good historical novel are
obviously the history.
I always like to think of thehistory as one of the characters
.
So it's growing and changingand has its own you know arc as
you go through the story.
But it's woven in a way thatdoesn't feel like you're reading
a textbook.
It's gotta be just the flavorof it and you read it and you
(38:59):
don't even realize.
Oh, the author actually had toresearch that.
It's just a piece of it.
But also, the same thing I kindof mentioned earlier is like
characters that readers canconnect with in a way that they
understand to their own modernsensibilities kind of mentioned
earlier is like characters thatreaders can connect with on in a
(39:19):
way that they understand totheir own modern sensibilities.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Love that.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
What do you wish you knew before publication?
I wish I knew that I wasn'tgoing to be sitting in like my
beautiful attic Garrett, youknow, looking out on a lovely
landscape.
I wish that like fantasy ofwhat writers actually like do
wasn't false.
So I sit here in my reallydirty office because I've got
(39:47):
piles of papers and bookseverywhere and sticky notes and
actually put my computer infront of the window so I can't
like look out the window.
So that's one thing, but Iguess the other thing on a more
serious level is I didn'trealize that the job wasn't just
writing.
You know, I think I writeprobably only 50% of the time.
(40:10):
The other 50% is doing all ofthe you know promo work or you
know I guess editing is alsopart of the writing, but it's a
lot of like business stuff thatI didn't realize, that I would
have to know how to do stuff.
And you know accounting workand all of that, because you
(40:31):
know when you get paid as anauthor they don't take your
taxes out or anything.
So you have to make sure thatyou set aside part of your
royalties to pay your taxes andthen you've got expenses that
you need to reimburse yourselffor.
So I just think that I wasn'taware that I was going to be
only writing about half the timeand the rest of the time I was
going to be like a businessperson.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Now, with the promotion stuff that you talked
about, what are some of thethings that you have to do for
your traditional contracts withthe promotion versus the things
you do for your hybrid?
Speaker 3 (41:03):
promotion.
So that's a great question.
One of the biggest differencesthat I don't pay for advertising
for my traditional stuff.
I do have to pay foradvertising for my indie stuff,
my um traditional stuff.
I do have to pay foradvertising for my indie stuff.
I could um, I do occasionally,I guess boost a Facebook post if
I have like a new release, butthe promo work I normally do for
a traditional is a lot ofsocial media um and a lot of
(41:25):
sharing, because you'll have umlike an Instagram, um blog tour
or whatever, and when and whenpeople are posting about your
book, you want to make sure thatyou reshare and you say thank
you.
So it's a lot of like socialmedia promo work.
I think is the right way to saythat.
And I get and planning.
(41:47):
You know, I'm going to do thecover reveal and I need to ask
all of my friends to do thecover reveal for me and help me
out here and um, I want toorganize a giveaway.
So I'm I'm planning how I'mgoing to do this giveaway Um, I
don't have to ship the booksbecause the publisher will ship
the books, fortunately, for thegiveaway Um, whereas with the
(42:08):
indie stuff I have to do theshipping for that too.
Um, so it's not that muchdifference.
I think the biggest differenceis that with the indie I'm
paying for it, whereas with thetraditional I'm not necessarily
paying for it.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Now, with the giveaways, do you have to?
I mean, do you do those inconjunction with your publisher
or do you just say I'm doing agiveaway?
How does that work?
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Kind of both.
So I'll email and say um, Ihave, you know, 10 historical
fiction author friends that umare willing to send out a book
to one of their readers for thisbig giveaway.
Um, so would you be willing toship those books for me?
And then they usually say yes.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Okay, that's cool.
Yeah, anybody else have anyquestions?
Just jump in.
You have to raise your hand oranything.
Speaker 4 (42:52):
If you have one, it's not a lather on um, I'm
wondering whether you write onebook at a time or whether you
write multiple books, like hopbetween several at a time.
That's a great.
It seems like you're soprolific yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
So, um, at any given time I am working on multiple
books not writing multiple books, though, so I'm always writing
one, I'm always editing one, I'malways promoting one, and I'm
always trying to put together aproposal for the next pitch.
And then you're also, you know,trying to, um, boost your
(43:30):
backlist, so you kind of have tojuggle all of those things.
Um, so, you know, trying toboost your backlist, so you kind
of have to juggle all of thosethings.
So, you know, if, let's say,okay, right now I am working on
revising a draft that is due inJune 15th or 14th, it's due in
June, next month, ah, it's kindof scary, but I'm also editing a
(43:50):
book that I wrote months agoand just got the edits back.
So, having to do that, and thenI'm working on a pitch with
another friend of mine whowanted to try her hand at
co-authoring, so that'ssomething that I'm doing.
And then I have a book comingout next month with my publisher
, so I'm promoting that, and atthe same time, next month with
(44:14):
my publisher, so I'm promotingthat, and at the same time I'm
also promoting Can't we BeFriends, which came out in March
.
So it's a lot of juggling, ifthat makes sense.
But I'm only actively writing,like the book I'm revising
that's due in June.
I finished the draft but I'mlike doing my whole, like
editing, revising stuff, makingit not garbage.
(44:44):
What do you think you did rightthat helped you make it?
Oh, wow, um, I think justlearning.
Um, I think it's reallyimportant, no matter where you
are in your writing career, toalways be reading and learning
the craft, because, even if it'sjust like a brush up, you might
be like, oh my gosh, I totallyforgot about that.
I should be doing that.
Um, but I and and reading issuper, super important.
But I think just keeping upwith learning what is important
(45:07):
and what's not, and trying tojust better, better, better my
writing I think Love that, lovethat.
Any advice for aspiring authors?
Yeah, I think the best advice Ican give you is that you need
(45:30):
to not stop I wouldn't say everyday, because I don't write
seven days a week, but I thinkat least three to five days a
week be sitting in front of thatmanuscript, be putting words on
the page, even if you thinkthey're total garbage.
You can fix garbage, but youcan't fix anything that you
haven't written.
So I really think that my bestpiece of advice is to actually
(45:52):
sit down and do the work anddon't like discourage yourself
from it.
I think all of us, even myselfincluded, can say like oh, why
are you doing this?
Why are you bothering?
This is terrible.
Just ignore that person.
They are a bully.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
I love that answer, by the way, best piece of
writing advice you've heard, Ilove that answer.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
By the way, best piece of writing advice you've
heard, um, oh well, one of myit's from my friend, um
Stephanie.
She's a historical fictionwriter and one of the best
things that she said was um, youcould just make that up,
because sometimes, like, we'lllike get really, really into
like the research part of it andget stuck for days.
(46:36):
I need to find this fact.
I need to find this fact In oneof my books.
I needed to figure out whetherthe floors were linoleum or some
other material.
Actually it was.
Can't we Be Friends?
It was when Marilyn was in thehospital and I was like I need
to know what the floor is,because she's sitting on the
floor and I've got to know.
And I was like I need to knowwhat the floor is because she's
sitting on the floor and I'vegot to know.
And I was like researching it.
I even called like a doctor tofind out what the floors were in
(46:57):
the sixties and they're like Idon't know.
And I was like this is terrible.
And so it was hours of work onthis floor.
And then it's like okay,remember, you can just make it
up.
And I was like, oh, she wasjust on the glossy floor.
Glossy floor, that's it Done.
(47:18):
So just not like obsessing overstuff.
Love that.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
So what tools are there?
Any tools or websites or booksor anything that you found most
helpful, either like now or whenyou were first starting out?
Speaker 3 (47:34):
Oh yeah, one of my favorite books and I still look
at it every once in a while nowis called Writing the Breakout
Novel and it's by Donald Mossand it's so good, Like that
Anthony's question earlier aboutupping the stakes, if you
haven't read that book, thatbook has great advice on upping
the stakes in scenes Reallyreally good.
Speaker 2 (47:56):
Awesome.
Anybody else have any morequestions?
What is the worst piece ofadvice you have gotten?
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Another really great question.
I'll have to think about that.
I think one of the worst piecesof advice I've ever gotten was
right to trend.
Because the issue is, ifsomething's really hot right now
and you're like, okay, I'mgoing to write to trend, first
of all you have to figure out,like, how to write that Like.
If I were to like suddenlydecide to write like um, like
(48:29):
fourth wing style stuff,romanticy, or whatever it's
called, um, I don't know how todo that, so it would take me a
while to figure that out.
And then by the time I likewrote the book enough that
someone would want to look at it, and then it was.
You know, let's say, they didbuy it eventually, and then I
wrote the book, and then it'sedited.
It's like three years from nowbefore that book hits the
shelves, and at that point thattrend could have been over like
(48:54):
a year or two ago hopefully not,because everybody loves
romanticy.
But I'm just saying like, don'twrite to trend unless it's
something you love, because youmight not love it.
And then it's a lot of work andthen it ends up bombing because
it's not a trend anymore.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Have there been any recent historical trends that
you're aware of?
Speaker 3 (49:15):
have there been any recent historical trends that
you're aware of?
So world war ii is a hugehistorical trend, um, and they
keep saying it's dying, and Ithink that readers are getting a
little bit um worn out by it,but at the same time, you still
have those rabid readers thatlove it.
I used to write tutorhistorical novels and they told
me that was dead.
But, um, people are like stillask me like, are you going to
write more Tudor?
I love Tudor, so I don't knowif that's true or not either,
(49:38):
but, um, it seems like right now, bookshops are a huge trend, um
, and it's kind of like likeit's getting like a little bit
gluttonous, so I'm not sure ifthat's something that's going to
pop soon.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
What are you working on now?
Speaker 3 (49:54):
So right now I am working on a.
It's actually a contemporarynovel under a different name
that's due in June and I'mpretty excited about it.
It's called Rush Week and it'sabout four sorority sisters who
when they were in college kindof gotten to some issues and now
they're, you know, aftergraduating and and starting
families and things are beingrecalled to an alumni event, um,
(50:18):
to kind of contend with thesesecrets that they've been
holding love that.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Thank you, what's up?
Well, where I'm tripping overmy tongue, where can everybody
connect with you?
Speaker 3 (50:33):
so, um, I um, I'm pretty much everywhere.
Um, I'm on Instagram Elizanight fiction, uh, facebook,
same thing.
I go on Twitter every once in awhile, but I'm not really big
on there.
Um, I have a Tik TOK account,but I'm not great at it, and my
website, I guess, is Elizanightcom, but like, you'll find
my stuff there, but I'm notpersonally there.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
Anything you want to say in closing.
Speaker 3 (50:56):
I just just that.
I wish you guys luck with yourwriting.
Don't give up.
You, you know, just a page at atime, a chapter at a time,
you'll eventually get there andjust keep going and and don't
you know, don't let anyone tellyou that you're not good enough.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
Cheryl said thank you so much.
This has been super helpful.
You've been delightful.
Thank everybody for coming andthank you so much, Eliza.
We've learned a lot.
We've had a good chat, Goodtalk.
Speaker 3 (51:22):
Good, it's my pleasure.
I'm so glad to be here with youguys.
Thank you I enjoyed it.
Speaker 6 (51:28):
That wraps up today's Craft Chat Chronicles with JD
Mayer.
Thanks for joining us.
If you liked the episode,please comment, subscribe and
share.
For show notes, writingworkshops and tips, head to
jdmayercom.
That's jdmayercom.
(51:48):
While you're there, join JDd'smailing list for updates,
giveaways and more.
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