November 8, 2024 • 22 mins
Transform your crawl space into a healthier and more efficient part of your home with guidance from Michael Kushler, a passionate DIY enthusiast who took on this challenge and emerged victorious. Discover the key to controlling humidity with expert advice on choosing and using the right dehumidifier—Michael swears by the Allure Air—and learn the importance of accurate humidity monitoring to keep your home comfortable. Michael's story of enhancing encapsulation by taping seams and applying plastic to walls offers practical insights, especially for those struggling with water retention in cinder block crawl spaces.
Get ready to rethink insulation and vapor barriers with Michael's experience using the Insel Barrier product, an innovative solution for wall insulation. He breaks down the process of installation, from adding fur strips to boost insulation R-value to creating a seamless blend with a radon mitigation system. The nuances of seam placement and the clever use of felt fabric to protect the barrier during storage offer invaluable tips for your next home improvement adventure. Expect to walk away with a comprehensive understanding of how a well-executed vapor barrier can dramatically improve your crawl space.
Managing radon mitigation in crawl spaces is no small feat, but with Michael's practical insights, you can tackle this challenge head-on. He delves into the complexities of existing systems, addressing the correct placement of radon fans, and the significance of monitoring vacuum pressure. Michael's dedication, spending countless hours on wall insulation, mold removal, and humidity control, transformed his crawl space into a healthier environment for his family. His journey is not just about technical fixes, but also about inspiring others to take on their own projects, showcasing that with commitment and effort, anyone can achieve remarkable results.
Check out Michael's book, "Crawl Space Repair Myths-Busted" now available on Amazon!
Schedule a consultation: https://buymeacoffee.com/csninja/extras
Need help: https://crawlspaceninja.com or https://diy.crawlspaceninja.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Church (00:00):
Okay, michael Church, here with Michael
Kushler and I'm going to talk tohim today.
He's done his own crawl space.
He's one of the DIY ninjas outthere.
We appreciate you coming,michael, and just so you know,
that is not a picture of hiscrawl space.
Behind him, he's literally inhis crawl space right now.
Michael (00:18):
I bought a battery backup which I can say paid for
itself immediately.
We had a power outage when thatbattery backup was going off.
That was really good.
Michael Church (00:37):
Let's move on.
I see that's not an Aprilairedehu behind you.
What do you got burning andchurning back there?
Michael (00:43):
It is not yet an Aprilaire.
Michael Church (00:46):
This is an Allure Air that I got off.
Michael (00:50):
I thought that might come up.
No, I I you know, shoppingaround on amazon.
This was, admittedly, I think,before I discovered and did a
real deep dive into your pageand all of your content as well.
Um, I think it's a similar typeof model, but not the same same
brand name.
We'll see how long it lasts.
I have faith in it.
They've got a warranty on it.
But the Aprilaire might be thenext one we pick up.
Michael Church (01:11):
Well, you know and I kid around I used to use
Santa Fe and we just had someissues with them, and so their
warranty wasn't what we wantedfor our company and everything
but as long as you've got adehumidifier, get what you can
afford.
And then, if you need to save upor whatever, but a dehumidifier
(01:32):
as long as it's controllinghumidity.
That's the most important part.
Everybody goes into reasons whyyou should buy an Aprilaire or
a Santa Fe or whatever, but justmake sure you get one.
That's the whole point.
I mean get what you can afford,get what you like.
You know you got a pretty tallcrawl space.
I mean you could probably evenhave a standup freestanding unit
(01:53):
in that crawl space.
It's so tall.
But some of us that haveshorter crawl spaces we need
something more like that onewhere it lays flat and blows,
you know, across.
So so how long have you hadthat machine?
Michael (02:06):
It's been about a year and a half now, so it's been
been working well and it.
What I like about it, too, isthat it comes with.
It comes with like a separatereadout that I can keep in the
main home and monitor thehumidity level that way.
Michael Church (02:17):
That's.
That's a good.
That's a good point.
So that way you and your familycan see what the humidity is in
the crawl space year round.
It's not as much as a, as analarm per se, like your, like
your sump pump, but you can lookover and every day, if you have
in the kitchen or whatever, youcan make sure that humidity
down there is in good shape.
Right, that's right.
Yeah, absolutely Right.
So why spend all that money ifyou're not going to monitor the
(02:40):
situation is very important.
So how long?
So you said you had that a yearand a half.
I assume that was done beforethe encapsulation.
Is that right, that's?
right, yeah, okay, first thingso it was able to control
humidity even before, or is thatright?
Michael (02:55):
It was we had.
We had an encapsulation thatwas existing.
It just wasn't super well doneand the plastic was getting old
and starting to, you know,really show wear and tear in a
number of places right um, sothat it controlled the humidity
down to about, you know, 45 to50 where we wanted it, but it
seemed like it was running a lot, especially in this very, very
(03:20):
few times when it wasn't running, to keep it at that humidity
level.
Michael Church (03:23):
So then you decided to do a full-blown
encapsulation, overlap andtaping the seams, all that
normal stuff that we would do,and then what kind of run time
are you seeing now?
Michael (03:33):
with the DU, yeah, in the summer.
So we finished up theencapsulation.
It was still pretty warm, youknow, consistently in the 70s
and 80s here, and it was running, you know, any given hour,
maybe 10 minutes or so, oh, wow.
Michael Church (03:48):
Wow, that's fantastic.
And before it was running yousaid constantly.
But give me an idea, was itrunning a couple of hours and
then turning off, or was itrunning all day, or what was it?
Michael (03:55):
doing.
It was running.
Before it was running prettymuch all day.
It was sort of like the inverseNow it might run 10 to 15
minutes in a given hour, right,and before it was running it was
not running for 10 minutes in agiven hour.
Wow, okay.
Michael Church (04:08):
So, and if you think about it, you know these,
these de-hues, they, they,they're about like refrigerators
, right?
So they use about as much poweras a refrigerator.
Could you imagine yourrefrigerator running, you know,
50 minutes out of the hourversus 10 minutes out of the
hour?
You know which is why theplastic is so important.
You know, were you ground onlyplastic or were you up on the
(04:29):
wall prior to encapsulation?
Michael (04:31):
Prior it was ground only.
Michael Church (04:33):
Ground only OK.
So that's that's another reasonwhy we encourage the wall
plastic is especially somebodylike you that's taken on a lot
of flooding that are you cinderblock, is that right?
Or block Cinder block, that'sright.
On a lot of flooding?
That are you cinder block, isthat right?
Or block your block, that'sright, okay.
So, uh, block walls are holdingwater and then that water is
going to evaporate inside, sothat plastic being up the wall
is going to slow thatevaporation.
(04:53):
Therefore your dhu doesn't haveto run as hard.
So that's that's great that youdid that and you said you had
mold.
Michael (04:59):
How did you address the mold?
We um bought some somecommercial mold killer.
I did some spraying first to tokill it.
I then did the physical remover.
I did you know, got in all thenooks and crannies and sanded um
with power tools when I could,or just got in there with some
sandpaper and made sure that Isanded it completely down and
then did a re-spray after thatas a preventative measure.
Michael Church (05:22):
That's very good .
So you actually got in andsanded the wood to physically
remove it.
That's right, that's great.
So it looks pretty clean backthere.
Was that behind you part ofwhat was affected by the mold?
Michael (05:36):
Yeah, I'd say to be on the safe side.
I sanded almost every singleone of the joists here, but I
was seeing them particularly asyou get into the rim joists like
as you get around the bandboard behind from the existing
bat insulation that was there.
That was the biggest cleanupjob.
Michael Church (05:54):
So could you see the mold in the joists below
the bat insulation that wasgrowing up on the tips of the
wood before you took theinsulation out?
Michael (06:03):
Not around the band board so much, but there was.
You know, I remember a videothat you said where you
recommended take a flashlightand shine it along the joists
and see, and I was seeing a lotof like that kind of white glow.
So I knew that there was noblack mold growing there, but
something was growing and Iwanted to make sure I got rid of
it all.
Michael Church (06:24):
Yeah, and that's a good point.
Thanks for bringing that up.
So you take your flashlight andyou run it down the beam and
then it kind of shows the raysof whatever's growing.
You know, and you said youparticularly saw white
discoloration on the wood.
Is that right?
So when you shined it straighton, you didn't see that.
Is that correct?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, that's amazing, amazing.
(06:46):
You know where I got that?
From csi.
I used to watch csi and then,like, take their flashlight and
run it down the wall and I'mlike huh, I'll try that.
So I did that and I saw moldthat I didn't see before, hidden
straight on.
So that was.
That was uh anyway thank you,csu appreciate.
Michael (06:59):
Well, that's what.
That's what I felt this waslike with this crawlspace
project.
You think you have one set ofthings to do and then, the
further you look into it, it'sjust more and more of a mystery.
Michael Church (07:08):
That's right Now .
Did you insulate?
I can't see.
Did you do wall insulation?
Is that right?
Michael (07:13):
I did.
I ended up getting thecombination vapor barrier and
insulation that you guys have inyour DIY store.
Michael Church (07:19):
Oh, cool, cool, Cool.
How was the install on that?
Was it hard or easy?
Michael (07:25):
What would you say it was pretty relatively easy.
I did a lot of it myself.
So you know you have a videowhere you talk about the
installation and recommend that.
You know it's an R8 as itexists.
You can kick it up to an R12 ifyou install fur strips.
So that was probably the thingthat took me the longest, over a
number of weekends, just makingsure I cleaned everything up,
(07:46):
installed the first strips andthen, when it came to putting up
the actual insulation itself,that was pretty easy.
You know, just quick drill aChristmas tree fastener and then
, because I have a radonmitigation system here, I used
polyurethane caulk all along theinside to air seal it as well,
across the top yeah, across thetop and inside the lip too, just
(08:09):
to be on the safe side.
Michael Church (08:10):
Yeah, and for those of you that aren't
familiar, it's called InselBarrier and it's a fairly new
product that's hit the marketmaybe a year or two old, and we
like it because in a situation,especially a DIY situation, it's
just a continuation of thevapor barrier.
So so what you, what it is isit's I think it's our 8.7 or
(08:31):
something like that.
But if you create an air gapwith a first strip per the
manufacturer, like he's talkingabout it, it it adds our value
to it and I think it's it'll goup to our 12 at three quarter
inches.
Is that about what you did?
Three quarter inch first strip,right, right.
So that way you're even doingbetter than our r10 foam board
if you do the first strip.
(08:52):
And how?
How far apart were you?
24 inch on center, or were youcloser?
oh yeah, at least 24 inches forthe overlap so you do a,
basically a first strip from didyou go top to bottom or did you
just go continuously all theway across Top to bottom, a
bunch of top to bottom strips?
So if you've got three and ahalf four foot wall, you just
cut them in half and you put thefirst strip on.
(09:13):
Did you use like a, like a cutnail, like one of those cut
nails to put the first strip on,or did you glue it?
Michael (09:20):
It was a concrete screws.
Michael Church (09:22):
Oh, okay, Okay.
So you drilled in and then useda tapcon or a masonry screw or
something yeah, tapcon, exactly.
Yeah, very good, very good.
And then you drilled again andthen you put the Christmas tree
to hold the vapor barrier up.
Exactly Right.
How did it look?
Is that our vapor barrier onour DIY store also, or is that a
different kind?
Michael (09:42):
Yes, this is your 12-mil vapor barrier.
Okay did.
Michael Church (09:45):
Or is that a different cut?
Yes, this is your 12 mil vaporbarrier Did they come together
pretty good, the insole barrierand our vapor barrier?
Michael (09:51):
Yeah, really well.
And you know, I just made sureI brought the vapor barrier on
the floor up over a foot andthen made sure that I taped that
really well and it looks great,it looks totally seamless and
it's helpful.
Michael Church (10:04):
So you brought the floor plastic up on the wall
in Silbarrier right, and thenthat's where your seam tape is.
Is that correct Exactly?
And then you're what maybeanother four or five feet before
your next seam out off the wall, or is it further than that?
Michael (10:22):
Like on the floor.
Michael Church (10:23):
Where's your next?
Is your floor?
Michael (10:27):
seam pretty close to the wall or did you go as far
away from the wall as you couldfor your next?
Yeah, I took the.
I took the seams.
The floor seam is the.
The strips basically go longalong the floor of the crawl
space so it's seamed up on thewalls and then, uh, like right
down the middle of the crawlspace on the floor very good,
very good.
Michael Church (10:45):
The reason why I bring that up, michael, is
because that seam is where thewater, the flooding intrusion is
going to happen, so you want tomake sure that you get that
seam as far away from thefoundation wall as possible.
It sounds like you did a greatjob doing that.
So you got it up the wall soyou're not going to flood there,
and then you've got the otherseam close to the center of the
crawl space so that water has totravel a long ways to break
(11:09):
through the plastic, right?
So, wow, it sounds like youneed to open a crawl space.
Ninja franchise in Virginia,right?
I mean, you're ready?
Michael (11:16):
Yeah, so you guys are looking for market there.
I saw my wife if I only had thetime or the capital, is that
felt?
Did you put felt down too?
Yeah, that's what.
One of the things that waspretty unique versus what I saw,
you know, in all of your videosis that I ended up getting the
felt 550.
And a lot of folks put it likeso we've got a dimpled
(11:38):
underlayment, then I've got acouple of layers of your 12 mil
vapor barrier on the floor, andthen a lot of folks put the felt
550 down under the vaporbarrier.
But I decided, hey, let's makeit more like a carpet, because,
because we want to have storageand we're going to be moving
boxes around and things likethat.
Michael Church (11:54):
I got you.
So you're using the felt toprotect the top of the plastic
so that you can store things onit.
Is that right?
That's right.
That that is very smart, thatis very smart.
I like that.
So so that that's just and justfor you all.
Felt 550 is basically just abrand.
A felt is pretty much like alandscape fabric the stuff you
(12:17):
would get at home.
Some of it's plastic.
What he, what he used, is moreof a cloth kind of material.
It's a little bit more durableand thick and all that.
If you go to a landscape like acompany that sells primarily
the landscapers, they do hugerolls of it, like you know, 3000
square feet, or you can get acouple of hundred square feet at
the box stores.
(12:38):
But that you probably orderedthat online from another company
.
Is that right?
Michael (12:42):
Yeah, that was online.
It was about 400 square feetand the strips were only about
10 feet long, so we ended uprunning the whole thing through
my wife's sewing machine.
Michael Church (12:53):
Oh, so you sewed it together.
Michael (12:54):
Yeah.
Michael Church (12:55):
Oh, that's cool.
That's cool, I never thoughtabout that.
That's a good idea, and you putdimple under the plastic,
that's right idea.
And you put dimple under theplastic, that's right.
So dimple a couple of layers.
So you got a dimple uh 24 milplastic and then 24 mil and then
film on top of it.
Man, you can have a, you canhave a slumber party down there.
I bet you that stuff feels goodon your knees crawling around,
(13:16):
doesn't it?
Michael (13:16):
it's amazing, I tell you that was.
That was the turning point inthe diy project.
When I got the dimpleunderlayment down, I was
actually able to crawl in mycrawl space rather than hunch
over the entire time.
Michael Church (13:28):
You weren't dreading the day as much after
that.
Right, it also looks like youused a foam board and spray foam
to do your rim joists.
Is that correct?
Michael (13:37):
I did.
Yeah, I used an EPS foam boardversus an XPS.
I remember seeing a video thatyou might have posted somewhere
for the viewers that talks aboutthe pros and the cons of each
EPS.
As I understand, it is a littlebit more permeable and can let
some water evaporate out.
I was worried about having whenI pulled the bad insulation out
(14:00):
and saw some mold in there.
I was worrying about having arepeat problem where moisture
would get trapped in there, so Iwanted an option that would
allow it to breathe a little bitmore.
Michael Church (14:08):
Right, that's good, and I got a picture here
and I'm going to put thesepictures throughout the video,
everybody, just so you can seethem.
But here is the insole barrierit looks like you got.
Is that a three-inch termitegap?
Is that right?
Michael (14:19):
It is.
So I checked the Virginia code.
I remember you had an Ask aNinja question about somebody
from James City County nearWilliamsburg, Virginia, asking
about that question.
So I found that same documentthat you had pulled and I found
the Virginia code as well.
It's the same thing.
They ask for at least one inch,but no greater than two inch.
I did three inch just to be onthe safe side.
Michael Church (14:41):
Gotcha, gotcha so, and every state's different.
That's why you got to check,like in Georgia, it's a minimum
of six inches, so it justdepends on where you're
operating and all that sort ofthing.
But what you're looking at here, viewers, is that he's got the
insole barrier.
He's got the the Christmas treefastener attaching the insole
barrier, which is holding upreally nice.
(15:02):
Then he used foam board, an EPSfoam board with a spray foam,
and the reason why EPS is better.
He said something that maythrow a lot of people off where
it allows moisture to passthrough it, okay, that's what
makes it live longer.
If you have an XPS like thepink or blue that you find at
(15:22):
Home Depot or Lowe's, it doesnot allow moisture to pass
through and the R value degradesfaster.
As a matter of fact, a lot ofwhat I've read is that you're
not supposed to use an XPS nearthe foundation.
It's basically for above thecrawl space all the way up to
the attic.
You can use it anywhere else,but in a wet area.
So that's what he's talkingabout the EPS versus the XPS,
(15:45):
and it looks fantastic.
You did a great job.
Great job.
How difficult was it to sandaround all those nails sticking
through in the boot.
I bet you that was pretty toughwasn't it?
Michael (15:56):
That was tough, you know.
That was the thing about theDIY project, I would say is I
took care of what was, you know,the most urgent in terms of
solving mold and waterremediation.
Right, but you know, the wholeproject is again, this is only a
425 foot crawl space took meabout four months, start to
finish, to do everything.
Um, I had a a week of vacationwhere I then did the bulk of the
(16:21):
work with changing out thevapor barrier, laying all of
that out, but doing the rimjoists, the sanding the wall,
insulation, all of that was justwhen I had time, on the
weekends, sure sure, and I'msure that's the thing.
Michael Church (16:37):
Did you do it all by yourself?
Did you have any help at all?
Michael (16:40):
My wife helped me when we were doing all the seam
tapings.
We found that was much easierwith two people, but other than
that it was all by myself, witha lot of help from you guys on
how to do it.
Michael Church (16:51):
Well, great, well, thank you for saying that.
I'm glad these videos are ableto help you and others out there
.
We would love it if you wouldhire us, if everybody in America
would hire us to fix theircrawl space, if you would hire
us, if everybody in Americawould hire us to fix their crawl
space.
But we, we just understand thatthere are some people that want
to tackle this on their own,for whatever reason, whether
it's to save money or or just asense of accomplishment of
(17:12):
getting it done, or both Right.
So I appreciate you coming onand all of this.
Let me, let me see if there'sany other pictures.
This looks really great,michael.
You did a fantastic job and I'mgoing to show these befores too
, and you had a nasty, nastycrawl space.
I'm looking at the one.
It looks like one of your kidssliding toys is in the picture.
(17:35):
That's a.
Did you have mold?
Michael (17:36):
on that.
Michael Church (17:37):
Was there mold on it?
Michael (17:38):
Not at.
Not at that time, no, Althoughwhen I came back to really start
the job in earnest, we saw somemold growing on the radon
mitigation pipes and otherplaces like that as well, so
other pieces of plastic thatwere starting to get mold
forming on them.
Michael Church (17:53):
Was the radon mitigation system installed
before your encapsulation or wasit installed before the sump
pump?
Where in the timeline was thatput?
Michael (18:03):
in that?
I'm not sure, because when webought the house, it came as a
part of it, that's right, okay,so they used a?
Michael Church (18:12):
uh, black plastic, what we call a builder
grade plastic.
Uh, and did they?
Did they use like a caulk toattach that black plastic to the
foundation wall for the radon?
Is that what they used?
Like polyurethane?
Michael (18:25):
Yeah, they used a polyurethane and they had like
wooden strips along the bottomof the foundation walls Right,
they wrapped the plastic aroundthat, nailed it with a Hilti gun
.
Michael Church (18:35):
And then attached it.
That way I got you and then Iassume they overlap and tape the
seams throughout the crawlspace as well.
Is that correct?
Michael (18:43):
That's right, although, you know, when I started
digging down into it, it seemedlike this was like layer three,
where the plastic was just worseand worse the further down.
You got Right, and so they hadjust whatever somebody had done
previously.
They were now doing it in amore thorough way, but still it
still wasn't in great shape.
But they really just laid itdown on top of the existing
(19:04):
plastic.
Michael Church (19:05):
So you had two or three layers and the radon
system was put on top of thoseother layers.
Is that right?
That's right, that's right,okay.
So and they slink the blackpipe through is that correct?
Like a, like a corrugated pipe?
That's right, all right, it'sactually, it's a corrugated,
perforated biotic.
And then that goes the radonfan is outside the foundation
and then goes up and over thegutters.
(19:26):
Is that also correct?
Michael (19:27):
Our radon system goes up through.
So our crawl space is above themain living space of the house
and accessible from inside thehouse, and the radon mitigation
system goes up through a closetand up through a roof and the
fan is up in the attic.
Michael Church (19:42):
So all the way through the attic, which is
ideal.
So your fan is in the atticthen.
Is that correct?
That's right.
Yeah, one quick tip foreverybody if you're planning on
doing your own radon system,never put the radon fan in the
crawl space.
It has to be either to theoutside of the house, on the
sides, or in the attic.
Those are really the onlyacceptable places.
You never put the fan in yourbasement, in the living space or
(20:03):
in the crawl space, because if,for some reason, those three or
four inch pipes disconnect orhave a leak, all of that radon
is leaking at a much higher rate, because those fans are a
couple hundred CFM.
So you don't want that tohappen.
So that's why his is in theattic.
A lot of newer homes that arebeing built today.
(20:23):
Today they pre-plumb them withthe radon stacks in the attic
and then that way the homeownercan have the fans at least
around here.
Uh, so, so that's, that's great.
So you took out all the oldplastic is that right?
Disconnected the those firststrips and then, uh, did all the
new plastic and then youoverlapped and taped with the
polyurethane.
Have you checked your radonlevel since, since you got done?
Michael (20:48):
I need to need to check the radon level.
It was still pretty low when wedid the initial inspection and
bought the house, but I need todo another check on it.
I can tell you know you havethat, that U-shaped suction tube
that shows you.
You know what your, what yournegative pressure is.
That's running really well moresuction than we had before.
Michael Church (21:06):
That's great.
That's great.
That's an indicator For thoseof you who don't know how radon
systems work.
You have this littleliquid-filled tube and the
liquid needs to be higher on oneside than the other, and that's
how you know that you got avacuum, basically.
So obviously, the radon systemis working.
You wouldn't have if it's level, then you don't have a vacuum.
(21:27):
So that's why that tube is soimportant.
Well, man, I'm telling you,michael, you did, you did a
fantastic job and I reallyappreciate you coming on.
Tell us, would you do it again?
Michael (21:40):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I want to say too, too,thank you so much for you know
that high praise coming fromfrom you and your company,
michael, you guys, to do suchfantastic work and and really,
um, I'm so appreciative for theamount of content that you put
out there to make this possible.
It was, um, I will say for theviewers out there.
I mean, I don't have abackground in construction, I
(22:02):
work a desk job.
I have a pretty small crawlspace and it definitely got
tough right, you know, in theweek when I was constantly down
here about eight hours a day,but absolutely doable and super
glad I did it.
Would totally do it again.
Michael Church (22:16):
Well, that's great.
Well, thank you, and you didsuch a fantastic job.
You got the wall insulation,you got the rim joist, you took
care of the mold.
You're controlling humidity.
It sounds like you just made amuch healthier environment for
you and your family.
So congratulations on that, andthank you again for sharing all
of your information.
Do you mind if I put thesepictures on the website so
(22:37):
people can just look at them?
Is that okay?
No, please do.
Before I stop recording, I hopeyou make it a happy and blessed
day and like this video downbelow, and we'll see you later.
Okay, michael Church, here with Michael
Kushler and I'm going to talk tohim today.
He's done his own crawl space.
He's one of the DIY ninjas outthere.
We appreciate you coming,michael, and just so you know,
that is not a picture of hiscrawl space.
Behind him, he's literally inhis crawl space right now.
Michael (00:18):
I bought a battery backup which I can say paid for
itself immediately.
We had a power outage when thatbattery backup was going off.
That was really good.
Michael Church (00:37):
Let's move on.
I see that's not an Aprilairedehu behind you.
What do you got burning andchurning back there?
Michael (00:43):
It is not yet an Aprilaire.
Michael Church (00:46):
This is an Allure Air that I got off.
Michael (00:50):
I thought that might come up.
No, I I you know, shoppingaround on amazon.
This was, admittedly, I think,before I discovered and did a
real deep dive into your pageand all of your content as well.
Um, I think it's a similar typeof model, but not the same same
brand name.
We'll see how long it lasts.
I have faith in it.
They've got a warranty on it.
But the Aprilaire might be thenext one we pick up.
Michael Church (01:11):
Well, you know and I kid around I used to use
Santa Fe and we just had someissues with them, and so their
warranty wasn't what we wantedfor our company and everything
but as long as you've got adehumidifier, get what you can
afford.
And then, if you need to save upor whatever, but a dehumidifier
(01:32):
as long as it's controllinghumidity.
That's the most important part.
Everybody goes into reasons whyyou should buy an Aprilaire or
a Santa Fe or whatever, but justmake sure you get one.
That's the whole point.
I mean get what you can afford,get what you like.
You know you got a pretty tallcrawl space.
I mean you could probably evenhave a standup freestanding unit
(01:53):
in that crawl space.
It's so tall.
But some of us that haveshorter crawl spaces we need
something more like that onewhere it lays flat and blows,
you know, across.
So so how long have you hadthat machine?
Michael (02:06):
It's been about a year and a half now, so it's been
been working well and it.
What I like about it, too, isthat it comes with.
It comes with like a separatereadout that I can keep in the
main home and monitor thehumidity level that way.
Michael Church (02:17):
That's.
That's a good.
That's a good point.
So that way you and your familycan see what the humidity is in
the crawl space year round.
It's not as much as a, as analarm per se, like your, like
your sump pump, but you can lookover and every day, if you have
in the kitchen or whatever, youcan make sure that humidity
down there is in good shape.
Right, that's right.
Yeah, absolutely Right.
So why spend all that money ifyou're not going to monitor the
(02:40):
situation is very important.
So how long?
So you said you had that a yearand a half.
I assume that was done beforethe encapsulation.
Is that right, that's?
right, yeah, okay, first thingso it was able to control
humidity even before, or is thatright?
Michael (02:55):
It was we had.
We had an encapsulation thatwas existing.
It just wasn't super well doneand the plastic was getting old
and starting to, you know,really show wear and tear in a
number of places right um, sothat it controlled the humidity
down to about, you know, 45 to50 where we wanted it, but it
seemed like it was running a lot, especially in this very, very
(03:20):
few times when it wasn't running, to keep it at that humidity
level.
Michael Church (03:23):
So then you decided to do a full-blown
encapsulation, overlap andtaping the seams, all that
normal stuff that we would do,and then what kind of run time
are you seeing now?
Michael (03:33):
with the DU, yeah, in the summer.
So we finished up theencapsulation.
It was still pretty warm, youknow, consistently in the 70s
and 80s here, and it was running, you know, any given hour,
maybe 10 minutes or so, oh, wow.
Michael Church (03:48):
Wow, that's fantastic.
And before it was running yousaid constantly.
But give me an idea, was itrunning a couple of hours and
then turning off, or was itrunning all day, or what was it?
Michael (03:55):
doing.
It was running.
Before it was running prettymuch all day.
It was sort of like the inverseNow it might run 10 to 15
minutes in a given hour, right,and before it was running it was
not running for 10 minutes in agiven hour.
Wow, okay.
Michael Church (04:08):
So, and if you think about it, you know these,
these de-hues, they, they,they're about like refrigerators
, right?
So they use about as much poweras a refrigerator.
Could you imagine yourrefrigerator running, you know,
50 minutes out of the hourversus 10 minutes out of the
hour?
You know which is why theplastic is so important.
You know, were you ground onlyplastic or were you up on the
(04:29):
wall prior to encapsulation?
Michael (04:31):
Prior it was ground only.
Michael Church (04:33):
Ground only OK.
So that's that's another reasonwhy we encourage the wall
plastic is especially somebodylike you that's taken on a lot
of flooding that are you cinderblock, is that right?
Or block Cinder block, that'sright.
On a lot of flooding?
That are you cinder block, isthat right?
Or block your block, that'sright, okay.
So, uh, block walls are holdingwater and then that water is
going to evaporate inside, sothat plastic being up the wall
is going to slow thatevaporation.
(04:53):
Therefore your dhu doesn't haveto run as hard.
So that's that's great that youdid that and you said you had
mold.
Michael (04:59):
How did you address the mold?
We um bought some somecommercial mold killer.
I did some spraying first to tokill it.
I then did the physical remover.
I did you know, got in all thenooks and crannies and sanded um
with power tools when I could,or just got in there with some
sandpaper and made sure that Isanded it completely down and
then did a re-spray after thatas a preventative measure.
Michael Church (05:22):
That's very good .
So you actually got in andsanded the wood to physically
remove it.
That's right, that's great.
So it looks pretty clean backthere.
Was that behind you part ofwhat was affected by the mold?
Michael (05:36):
Yeah, I'd say to be on the safe side.
I sanded almost every singleone of the joists here, but I
was seeing them particularly asyou get into the rim joists like
as you get around the bandboard behind from the existing
bat insulation that was there.
That was the biggest cleanupjob.
Michael Church (05:54):
So could you see the mold in the joists below
the bat insulation that wasgrowing up on the tips of the
wood before you took theinsulation out?
Michael (06:03):
Not around the band board so much, but there was.
You know, I remember a videothat you said where you
recommended take a flashlightand shine it along the joists
and see, and I was seeing a lotof like that kind of white glow.
So I knew that there was noblack mold growing there, but
something was growing and Iwanted to make sure I got rid of
it all.
Michael Church (06:24):
Yeah, and that's a good point.
Thanks for bringing that up.
So you take your flashlight andyou run it down the beam and
then it kind of shows the raysof whatever's growing.
You know, and you said youparticularly saw white
discoloration on the wood.
Is that right?
So when you shined it straighton, you didn't see that.
Is that correct?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, that's amazing, amazing.
(06:46):
You know where I got that?
From csi.
I used to watch csi and then,like, take their flashlight and
run it down the wall and I'mlike huh, I'll try that.
So I did that and I saw moldthat I didn't see before, hidden
straight on.
So that was.
That was uh anyway thank you,csu appreciate.
Michael (06:59):
Well, that's what.
That's what I felt this waslike with this crawlspace
project.
You think you have one set ofthings to do and then, the
further you look into it, it'sjust more and more of a mystery.
Michael Church (07:08):
That's right Now .
Did you insulate?
I can't see.
Did you do wall insulation?
Is that right?
Michael (07:13):
I did.
I ended up getting thecombination vapor barrier and
insulation that you guys have inyour DIY store.
Michael Church (07:19):
Oh, cool, cool, Cool.
How was the install on that?
Was it hard or easy?
Michael (07:25):
What would you say it was pretty relatively easy.
I did a lot of it myself.
So you know you have a videowhere you talk about the
installation and recommend that.
You know it's an R8 as itexists.
You can kick it up to an R12 ifyou install fur strips.
So that was probably the thingthat took me the longest, over a
number of weekends, just makingsure I cleaned everything up,
(07:46):
installed the first strips andthen, when it came to putting up
the actual insulation itself,that was pretty easy.
You know, just quick drill aChristmas tree fastener and then
, because I have a radonmitigation system here, I used
polyurethane caulk all along theinside to air seal it as well,
across the top yeah, across thetop and inside the lip too, just
(08:09):
to be on the safe side.
Michael Church (08:10):
Yeah, and for those of you that aren't
familiar, it's called InselBarrier and it's a fairly new
product that's hit the marketmaybe a year or two old, and we
like it because in a situation,especially a DIY situation, it's
just a continuation of thevapor barrier.
So so what you, what it is isit's I think it's our 8.7 or
(08:31):
something like that.
But if you create an air gapwith a first strip per the
manufacturer, like he's talkingabout it, it it adds our value
to it and I think it's it'll goup to our 12 at three quarter
inches.
Is that about what you did?
Three quarter inch first strip,right, right.
So that way you're even doingbetter than our r10 foam board
if you do the first strip.
(08:52):
And how?
How far apart were you?
24 inch on center, or were youcloser?
oh yeah, at least 24 inches forthe overlap so you do a,
basically a first strip from didyou go top to bottom or did you
just go continuously all theway across Top to bottom, a
bunch of top to bottom strips?
So if you've got three and ahalf four foot wall, you just
cut them in half and you put thefirst strip on.
(09:13):
Did you use like a, like a cutnail, like one of those cut
nails to put the first strip on,or did you glue it?
Michael (09:20):
It was a concrete screws.
Michael Church (09:22):
Oh, okay, Okay.
So you drilled in and then useda tapcon or a masonry screw or
something yeah, tapcon, exactly.
Yeah, very good, very good.
And then you drilled again andthen you put the Christmas tree
to hold the vapor barrier up.
Exactly Right.
How did it look?
Is that our vapor barrier onour DIY store also, or is that a
different kind?
Michael (09:42):
Yes, this is your 12-mil vapor barrier.
Okay did.
Michael Church (09:45):
Or is that a different cut?
Yes, this is your 12 mil vaporbarrier Did they come together
pretty good, the insole barrierand our vapor barrier?
Michael (09:51):
Yeah, really well.
And you know, I just made sureI brought the vapor barrier on
the floor up over a foot andthen made sure that I taped that
really well and it looks great,it looks totally seamless and
it's helpful.
Michael Church (10:04):
So you brought the floor plastic up on the wall
in Silbarrier right, and thenthat's where your seam tape is.
Is that correct Exactly?
And then you're what maybeanother four or five feet before
your next seam out off the wall, or is it further than that?
Michael (10:22):
Like on the floor.
Michael Church (10:23):
Where's your next?
Is your floor?
Michael (10:27):
seam pretty close to the wall or did you go as far
away from the wall as you couldfor your next?
Yeah, I took the.
I took the seams.
The floor seam is the.
The strips basically go longalong the floor of the crawl
space so it's seamed up on thewalls and then, uh, like right
down the middle of the crawlspace on the floor very good,
very good.
Michael Church (10:45):
The reason why I bring that up, michael, is
because that seam is where thewater, the flooding intrusion is
going to happen, so you want tomake sure that you get that
seam as far away from thefoundation wall as possible.
It sounds like you did a greatjob doing that.
So you got it up the wall soyou're not going to flood there,
and then you've got the otherseam close to the center of the
crawl space so that water has totravel a long ways to break
(11:09):
through the plastic, right?
So, wow, it sounds like youneed to open a crawl space.
Ninja franchise in Virginia,right?
I mean, you're ready?
Michael (11:16):
Yeah, so you guys are looking for market there.
I saw my wife if I only had thetime or the capital, is that
felt?
Did you put felt down too?
Yeah, that's what.
One of the things that waspretty unique versus what I saw,
you know, in all of your videosis that I ended up getting the
felt 550.
And a lot of folks put it likeso we've got a dimpled
(11:38):
underlayment, then I've got acouple of layers of your 12 mil
vapor barrier on the floor, andthen a lot of folks put the felt
550 down under the vaporbarrier.
But I decided, hey, let's makeit more like a carpet, because,
because we want to have storageand we're going to be moving
boxes around and things likethat.
Michael Church (11:54):
I got you.
So you're using the felt toprotect the top of the plastic
so that you can store things onit.
Is that right?
That's right.
That that is very smart, thatis very smart.
I like that.
So so that that's just and justfor you all.
Felt 550 is basically just abrand.
A felt is pretty much like alandscape fabric the stuff you
(12:17):
would get at home.
Some of it's plastic.
What he, what he used, is moreof a cloth kind of material.
It's a little bit more durableand thick and all that.
If you go to a landscape like acompany that sells primarily
the landscapers, they do hugerolls of it, like you know, 3000
square feet, or you can get acouple of hundred square feet at
the box stores.
(12:38):
But that you probably orderedthat online from another company
.
Is that right?
Michael (12:42):
Yeah, that was online.
It was about 400 square feetand the strips were only about
10 feet long, so we ended uprunning the whole thing through
my wife's sewing machine.
Michael Church (12:53):
Oh, so you sewed it together.
Michael (12:54):
Yeah.
Michael Church (12:55):
Oh, that's cool.
That's cool, I never thoughtabout that.
That's a good idea, and you putdimple under the plastic,
that's right idea.
And you put dimple under theplastic, that's right.
So dimple a couple of layers.
So you got a dimple uh 24 milplastic and then 24 mil and then
film on top of it.
Man, you can have a, you canhave a slumber party down there.
I bet you that stuff feels goodon your knees crawling around,
(13:16):
doesn't it?
Michael (13:16):
it's amazing, I tell you that was.
That was the turning point inthe diy project.
When I got the dimpleunderlayment down, I was
actually able to crawl in mycrawl space rather than hunch
over the entire time.
Michael Church (13:28):
You weren't dreading the day as much after
that.
Right, it also looks like youused a foam board and spray foam
to do your rim joists.
Is that correct?
Michael (13:37):
I did.
Yeah, I used an EPS foam boardversus an XPS.
I remember seeing a video thatyou might have posted somewhere
for the viewers that talks aboutthe pros and the cons of each
EPS.
As I understand, it is a littlebit more permeable and can let
some water evaporate out.
I was worried about having whenI pulled the bad insulation out
(14:00):
and saw some mold in there.
I was worrying about having arepeat problem where moisture
would get trapped in there, so Iwanted an option that would
allow it to breathe a little bitmore.
Michael Church (14:08):
Right, that's good, and I got a picture here
and I'm going to put thesepictures throughout the video,
everybody, just so you can seethem.
But here is the insole barrierit looks like you got.
Is that a three-inch termitegap?
Is that right?
Michael (14:19):
It is.
So I checked the Virginia code.
I remember you had an Ask aNinja question about somebody
from James City County nearWilliamsburg, Virginia, asking
about that question.
So I found that same documentthat you had pulled and I found
the Virginia code as well.
It's the same thing.
They ask for at least one inch,but no greater than two inch.
I did three inch just to be onthe safe side.
Michael Church (14:41):
Gotcha, gotcha so, and every state's different.
That's why you got to check,like in Georgia, it's a minimum
of six inches, so it justdepends on where you're
operating and all that sort ofthing.
But what you're looking at here, viewers, is that he's got the
insole barrier.
He's got the the Christmas treefastener attaching the insole
barrier, which is holding upreally nice.
(15:02):
Then he used foam board, an EPSfoam board with a spray foam,
and the reason why EPS is better.
He said something that maythrow a lot of people off where
it allows moisture to passthrough it, okay, that's what
makes it live longer.
If you have an XPS like thepink or blue that you find at
(15:22):
Home Depot or Lowe's, it doesnot allow moisture to pass
through and the R value degradesfaster.
As a matter of fact, a lot ofwhat I've read is that you're
not supposed to use an XPS nearthe foundation.
It's basically for above thecrawl space all the way up to
the attic.
You can use it anywhere else,but in a wet area.
So that's what he's talkingabout the EPS versus the XPS,
(15:45):
and it looks fantastic.
You did a great job.
Great job.
How difficult was it to sandaround all those nails sticking
through in the boot.
I bet you that was pretty toughwasn't it?
Michael (15:56):
That was tough, you know.
That was the thing about theDIY project, I would say is I
took care of what was, you know,the most urgent in terms of
solving mold and waterremediation.
Right, but you know, the wholeproject is again, this is only a
425 foot crawl space took meabout four months, start to
finish, to do everything.
Um, I had a a week of vacationwhere I then did the bulk of the
(16:21):
work with changing out thevapor barrier, laying all of
that out, but doing the rimjoists, the sanding the wall,
insulation, all of that was justwhen I had time, on the
weekends, sure sure, and I'msure that's the thing.
Michael Church (16:37):
Did you do it all by yourself?
Did you have any help at all?
Michael (16:40):
My wife helped me when we were doing all the seam
tapings.
We found that was much easierwith two people, but other than
that it was all by myself, witha lot of help from you guys on
how to do it.
Michael Church (16:51):
Well, great, well, thank you for saying that.
I'm glad these videos are ableto help you and others out there
.
We would love it if you wouldhire us, if everybody in America
would hire us to fix theircrawl space, if you would hire
us, if everybody in Americawould hire us to fix their crawl
space.
But we, we just understand thatthere are some people that want
to tackle this on their own,for whatever reason, whether
it's to save money or or just asense of accomplishment of
(17:12):
getting it done, or both Right.
So I appreciate you coming onand all of this.
Let me, let me see if there'sany other pictures.
This looks really great,michael.
You did a fantastic job and I'mgoing to show these befores too
, and you had a nasty, nastycrawl space.
I'm looking at the one.
It looks like one of your kidssliding toys is in the picture.
(17:35):
That's a.
Did you have mold?
Michael (17:36):
on that.
Michael Church (17:37):
Was there mold on it?
Michael (17:38):
Not at.
Not at that time, no, Althoughwhen I came back to really start
the job in earnest, we saw somemold growing on the radon
mitigation pipes and otherplaces like that as well, so
other pieces of plastic thatwere starting to get mold
forming on them.
Michael Church (17:53):
Was the radon mitigation system installed
before your encapsulation or wasit installed before the sump
pump?
Where in the timeline was thatput?
Michael (18:03):
in that?
I'm not sure, because when webought the house, it came as a
part of it, that's right, okay,so they used a?
Michael Church (18:12):
uh, black plastic, what we call a builder
grade plastic.
Uh, and did they?
Did they use like a caulk toattach that black plastic to the
foundation wall for the radon?
Is that what they used?
Like polyurethane?
Michael (18:25):
Yeah, they used a polyurethane and they had like
wooden strips along the bottomof the foundation walls Right,
they wrapped the plastic aroundthat, nailed it with a Hilti gun
.
Michael Church (18:35):
And then attached it.
That way I got you and then Iassume they overlap and tape the
seams throughout the crawlspace as well.
Is that correct?
Michael (18:43):
That's right, although, you know, when I started
digging down into it, it seemedlike this was like layer three,
where the plastic was just worseand worse the further down.
You got Right, and so they hadjust whatever somebody had done
previously.
They were now doing it in amore thorough way, but still it
still wasn't in great shape.
But they really just laid itdown on top of the existing
(19:04):
plastic.
Michael Church (19:05):
So you had two or three layers and the radon
system was put on top of thoseother layers.
Is that right?
That's right, that's right,okay.
So and they slink the blackpipe through is that correct?
Like a, like a corrugated pipe?
That's right, all right, it'sactually, it's a corrugated,
perforated biotic.
And then that goes the radonfan is outside the foundation
and then goes up and over thegutters.
(19:26):
Is that also correct?
Michael (19:27):
Our radon system goes up through.
So our crawl space is above themain living space of the house
and accessible from inside thehouse, and the radon mitigation
system goes up through a closetand up through a roof and the
fan is up in the attic.
Michael Church (19:42):
So all the way through the attic, which is
ideal.
So your fan is in the atticthen.
Is that correct?
That's right.
Yeah, one quick tip foreverybody if you're planning on
doing your own radon system,never put the radon fan in the
crawl space.
It has to be either to theoutside of the house, on the
sides, or in the attic.
Those are really the onlyacceptable places.
You never put the fan in yourbasement, in the living space or
(20:03):
in the crawl space, because if,for some reason, those three or
four inch pipes disconnect orhave a leak, all of that radon
is leaking at a much higher rate, because those fans are a
couple hundred CFM.
So you don't want that tohappen.
So that's why his is in theattic.
A lot of newer homes that arebeing built today.
(20:23):
Today they pre-plumb them withthe radon stacks in the attic
and then that way the homeownercan have the fans at least
around here.
Uh, so, so that's, that's great.
So you took out all the oldplastic is that right?
Disconnected the those firststrips and then, uh, did all the
new plastic and then youoverlapped and taped with the
polyurethane.
Have you checked your radonlevel since, since you got done?
Michael (20:48):
I need to need to check the radon level.
It was still pretty low when wedid the initial inspection and
bought the house, but I need todo another check on it.
I can tell you know you havethat, that U-shaped suction tube
that shows you.
You know what your, what yournegative pressure is.
That's running really well moresuction than we had before.
Michael Church (21:06):
That's great.
That's great.
That's an indicator For thoseof you who don't know how radon
systems work.
You have this littleliquid-filled tube and the
liquid needs to be higher on oneside than the other, and that's
how you know that you got avacuum, basically.
So obviously, the radon systemis working.
You wouldn't have if it's level, then you don't have a vacuum.
(21:27):
So that's why that tube is soimportant.
Well, man, I'm telling you,michael, you did, you did a
fantastic job and I reallyappreciate you coming on.
Tell us, would you do it again?
Michael (21:40):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I want to say too, too,thank you so much for you know
that high praise coming fromfrom you and your company,
michael, you guys, to do suchfantastic work and and really,
um, I'm so appreciative for theamount of content that you put
out there to make this possible.
It was, um, I will say for theviewers out there.
I mean, I don't have abackground in construction, I
(22:02):
work a desk job.
I have a pretty small crawlspace and it definitely got
tough right, you know, in theweek when I was constantly down
here about eight hours a day,but absolutely doable and super
glad I did it.
Would totally do it again.
Michael Church (22:16):
Well, that's great.
Well, thank you, and you didsuch a fantastic job.
You got the wall insulation,you got the rim joist, you took
care of the mold.
You're controlling humidity.
It sounds like you just made amuch healthier environment for
you and your family.
So congratulations on that, andthank you again for sharing all
of your information.
Do you mind if I put thesepictures on the website so
(22:37):
people can just look at them?
Is that okay?
No, please do.
Before I stop recording, I hopeyou make it a happy and blessed
day and like this video downbelow, and we'll see you later.
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History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.