AI and Art: A Match Made in Creative Heaven?

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Create Art Podcast InterviewDavid Miller hello friend. This is
Timothy Keem O'Brien, yourhead instigator for Create Art Podcast
where I bring my over 30 yearsof experience in the arts and education

(00:24):
world to help you tame yourinner critic and create more than
you consume. Now on today'sepisode, I have with me David Miller.
He is a Los Angeles basedmultimedia artist specializing in
photography, animation andsound design. His work fuses lo fi

(00:45):
aesthetics with cutting edgetechnology, creating art that is
organic, surreal and noirfocused, yet accessible through a
pop art sensibility. Now, asan arts educator, he encourages students
of all ages to exploreexpressive and experimental approaches
using the tools that resonatewith them. In his latest book, the

(01:08):
Beginner's Guide to ProcreateDreams, that's by Rocky Nook Publishing
that showcases his expertisein digital animation. Now, recently
he's become an advocate forembracing AI tools in the same spirit
as pioneering artists,filmmakers and musicians who pushed
technological boundaries torealize their creative visions. And

(01:33):
I gotta say, I had a fantastictime talking with David. He is huge
into AI. He is all into AI andI am getting close to being all into
AI. I use a lot of AI in mywork and you'll find out more about
that in this interview. But Ithink if we use AI to help us as

(01:57):
a tool, it's just going tomake our art that much better and
perhaps make it easier for usto produce great works of art. So
at this time I'm going to stepback and go ahead and play for you
the interview that I had withDavid Miller.
All right, thank you all verymuch for joining us here on Create

(02:18):
Art Podcast. I have theprivilege of having David Miller
on the show here with metoday. David, how is it in LA today?
Got to 72 and you know, thatshort weather. I actually live in
San Pedro, which is the southsouthern harbor tip of la and we're
by the ocean, so breezy,bright, sunny, beautiful.

(02:42):
I think we all wish we couldbe out there except for the fires
and the earthquakes and allthat stuff, but besides that, we
all just need to go toCalifornia. Well, I'm glad you're
on here today because I'mgoing to talk a lot about AI and
artistic expression here todayand that's something that you've
been exploring a lot. And myfirst question off to you is how

(03:03):
do you see AI being used forgenuine artistic expression?
I think the opportunity thatsort of one man band artists like
myself have is we can beproduction studios from soup to nuts,
A to Z. And by that I mean IfI have a vision of a sound, a soundtrack

(03:29):
to a film, I want to make ananimation a particular way something
moves around or like an objectthat I need for. As a maybe like
a prop for a character.Because I do a lot of animation,
I can generate those. Andthose of us who are capable of putting
our vision into words are ableto achieve that vision the same way

(03:51):
that in the past, let's say itwas a production studio that had
the wardrobe designer and asoundtrack person and so on and so
forth. You describe it thebest you can to those people. But
if they weren't vibing withyou, especially if your vibe is kind
of weird, you know you're notgoing to get the result that you
really want. And then you'regoing to be, like, struggling, even

(04:14):
though maybe you canarticulate it as best you can in
words. It's like the receptorisn't understanding what you're doing.
And before he died, Davidlynch really didn't seem to have
any opinions on AI that I everheard of. But he was really into
digital video and Photoshop alot. And he would say things like,
it's getting so anything youcan imagine, you can dream, you can

(04:36):
create without even having toleave your house. Now, he was describing
Photoshop in that particularinterview. But this is far beyond
Photoshop and the things thatI've been making with AI mostly over
the last six months. Myfavorite tool currently is called
Suno, and it is a musicgenerator. And early on it seemed

(04:56):
like everything was kind oflike a gag or it was of low quality.
But as I progressed andfigured out how to articulate what
I was really looking for, andalso kind of using other AI tools
like Claude and ChatGPT andthose things to break down elements
that weren't even musical. Butlet's say the films of Guillermo
del Toro and David lynch,there is a particular vibe that in

(05:21):
the case of Guillermo delToro, kind of goes along with Edgar
Allan Poe and Gothic horrorand Gothic romance. And in the case
of David lynch, it's sort oflike following on the backs of the
1930s surrealists. You know,there is art history that articulates
what that is, and so I've beenable to make pieces for what I do

(05:43):
that continue in thattradition. Now, I think a lot of
the reason why I gets a superbad rap and people think it's not
quite going to generate thingsof quality is because one, people
aren't very good at describingwhat they want or thinking, like,
I need this thing, even thoughthey would do that. If they were
like trying to find props fortheir period piece short film. But

(06:05):
also because the people whocreated these AI tools aren't artists
and they think in the sense ofwe want to replicate the most popular
things that are around. So ofcourse, when you start dabbling with.
Gives you, I don't know, ifyou're trying to generate characters
and stuff, it'll give you likepretty girl that looks like an anime

(06:26):
character. That looks like ananime character looks like, you know,
but that doesn't mean you haveto think like that exactly when you're
getting to it. So I kind ofchallenge people who are 100 against
AI, you know, what is it thatyou're currently engaged in creating
now that's taking up weeks ofyour time, years of your time, years

(06:46):
of, you know, and is it worthit to you? You know, is it any better
to have a prosthetic mask thatlooks cool on film, but the actor
has to sit in the chair foreight hours in the morning and that
prosthetic falls apart aftertwo days and you find yourself having

(07:08):
to shoot it against greenscreen and that you can't even like,
you know, light and key andcost. And in the process of that
particular film project, maybeyou're seeking thousands of dollars
and running all thesecrowdfunding campaigns and going
to loan sharks or, you know,or mortgaging your house or like
getting so anxious about theentire production process that you

(07:31):
develop like a drug habit orsomething or you ruin your family
life. Is that worth it? Whenthe. I think his name is Matt Stone,
but one of the people whomakes. Or the. Both the guys make
south park, they have an AIcompany that allows an actor to act
as themselves and then itgenerates the character over them,
you know.
Yeah.
And then the. It's moreefficient, the production is smoother,

(07:54):
it's less stress on everybodyinvolved. And in the sense that it,
you know, presuming thattechnology is as feasible, as good
looking on screen as all thatother stuff that probably won't even
get made because of all thehurdles I just mentioned. You'll
get your work done andeverybody will be more mentally and

(08:15):
physically healthy. And I dothink it's also important that we
speak to the times we live in.
For sure.
So. So it's great that thereare filmmakers out there that, you
know, are dedicated to thetradition of 35 millimeter or 16
millimeter 8 millimeterfilmmaking, but that's so inefficient.

(08:36):
It costs so much. So manythings go wrong with it. David lynch
abandoned filmmaking withchemical processes at a certain point
in his career and just wentall digital video. And, you know,
I'm not really into periodstuff anyways. I think you should,
like, operate in the space,the times you live in.

(08:56):
For sure, for sure.
And AI is omnipresent. It'spart of what we are. Just like the
Internet and electricity andall that.
And I've listened to a lot ofpodcasts, I've listened to a lot
of people, you know, reallydowngrade or besmirch whatever, you
know, word you want to use forit. AI, they say it's the lazy tool

(09:19):
and all that. What are youfinding as the biggest misconception
about AI generated art?Because I know when I use it, when
I first used it, I didn't knowwhat I was doing, just like anybody
else. You know, when firstusing a paintbrush, when you're first
shooting a film, you don'tknow what you're doing. But then
after you get into it for awhile, you learn that there's a lot

(09:42):
of steps to it. There's a lotof thing, you know, you have to be
very precise. And I liked whatyou said, you know, being precise
with your language when you'reusing AI. But what are you finding
is everyone's misconception orI guess, fear of AI?
I think that the biggestmisconception, the thing I hear the
most, is that it lacks soul orthat it will never replace this thing,

(10:08):
or that, you know, that therewill not be AI songs that make you
cry and so on and so forth. Ithink the reason why that is wrong
is because it just makes a lotof assumptions. I think the first
one is that anything made by,you know, everything has to be 100%
made by human hands. And weare wearing clothes. You have books

(10:31):
that were mass produced. You.We've all taken pictures with digital
photo and video makingequipment that makes us feel something.
And certainly every newgeneration that comes up, like, my
kids are 16 and 18, they'venever known what it's like to not
have an Internet, you know,and I work in a school and I've got

(10:53):
kids that when the WI fi goesdown, it actually physically hurts
them. Like they. They just donot understand what it was like to
live pre that time. Old peoplelike us are saying, well, I can't.
You know, there's. The onlyway humans exist and communicate
and feel things is by the waythat we grew up. And that's just

(11:14):
not true. You know, I thinkthat as I was saying, though, we
all have things that involvetechnology that Even right now, us
communicating this way is kindof unique to our time, but it can
be soulful. You know, quoteunquote. The way that an AI image

(11:34):
becomes soulful is that youhave to, you know, imbue it with
meaning. I keep quoting peoplethat I like, but Bjork, who's done
electronic music for 30 years,she said, you know, people say computer
music has no soul, and youcan't blame the tool for it because
if the soul's not there, theperson didn't put it in there.
Right.
You know, AI doesn't. The AIart we're talking about, let's just

(11:58):
say that it doesn't justgenerate itself, it has our brains
to activate it. Right. Ofcourse there will be self generating,
self replicating art. Peoplelike Brian Eno do things that it
has that built in, where itgenerates on and on. He has an app
called Bloom, and he's donethat with these like, AI paintings.

(12:19):
But the idea that you have,and I'm trying to think of, like
a story for a movie that maybewould get our heart, you know, maybe
the breakup of a family orchild abuse, or connecting to an
animal on a spiritual level,or, you know, just generally being
lonely or suicidal orsomething like that. All of that

(12:42):
can be a story that you tellin a song or visual art piece or
video piece using an AI tool.Now, most of them have built in,
you know, content filters forviolence and sex, but I'm sure there's
ones that go around that ifyou need that.
Yeah.
And even if there isn't, youcan still make a part of. Of an AI

(13:07):
image or something and thenincorporate it into something else
that you make. So I. And I'vemade some videos that weren't, like,
violent and sexual, but theywere, you know, political. And there's
a lot of funny political AIgoing around right now. There was
a video with Trump suckingElon Musk's feet shown at the. One
of the departments. I forgotwhich one. Housing and Development

(13:29):
or something. It was on the screens.
Yeah.
And then somebody made a moviethat had like a. AI Vladimir Putin
as the main character. And itwas supposed to be a documentary
type thing, but they wereinserting him into their footage.
So on that level, I think youcan communicate whatever you really
want to communicate with it.You just kind of have to articulate
it a certain way. And the morethat I've used the AI music tool,

(13:52):
the easier it is for me toarticulate it. Also continuing on
and not being soulful, I feellike we kind of need to examine what
humans think soulful means,you know, or what is it, what is
it that you think is this likeunassailable organic element that's
only unique to things thatpeople generate without electronic

(14:17):
help. Now I understand there'speople who are like into artisanal
crafts.
Sure.
You know, and there's a bigmark or there was a big market on
Etsy, but you know, time hasshifted it. So Etsy has sort of become
more Amazon. But it used to beentirely handcrafted and you would
go to like a local brewery orsomething and try beer that you knew
was made there. And then youkind of had a story to tell. But

(14:39):
I think that's really allthere, really there is to. When we
think about what's. What'sunique to the human experience is
that you can kind of attachyour own story to. Isn't much of
a story to say. I sat downwith Suno and I generated a thing.
However, I will like take myiPad or my phone and I'll work on
artwork by the ocean where Ilive. And all of a sudden it's kind

(15:02):
of like plein air paintingwhere I have my entire production
studio in my device. But I'mabsorbing what's there. And I just,
I look at the pop charts and Ilook at a lot of the movies that,
you know, are real popular,make money. And I look at movies
that maybe were criticallyappraised but. And celebrated, but

(15:26):
they aren't like burning up,you know, people's conversations.
And I was like, what is it inany of this stuff that couldn't have
been done in AI? Like whywould it be so special? And I don't
really know, you know, I knowthat there's a lot of things like
before you started running, wewere talking about the Pixar films.

(15:47):
Yeah.
And you know, up to a pointthose movies have made everybody
cry. And when they were firstbeing made, when the first Toy Story
was being made, nobodybelieved in it. And they're like,
this is two dimensionanimation. It just got something
to it, you know, it's so muchsoulful. This computer stuff's crap.
Nobody's gonna watch this.Everything looks like plastic, you

(16:07):
know, which is why they madeToy Story about plastic.
Yeah.
Because they couldn't figureout how to make humans looking the
way they are. And then, youknow, fast forward just a few years
and they have like the Planetof the Apes films where they like
get real close in on Caesar'seyes at the end and it's all motion
capture or Gollum From Lord ofthe Rings. Same actor, Andy Serkis.
And it communicatesspirituality and soulfulness the

(16:30):
same as anything else. We justlearned how to do it better.
Yeah, I remember seeing aFinal Fantasy movie. I believe it
was.
Oh, this is the Spirits Within.
Yeah, that one. And when itcame out, it went to a. It was an
old time movie theater palacekind of thing in Richmond, Virginia.
And my background is theater.So I went with a bunch of actor friends

(16:53):
and they were like, oh my God,we're out of a job. Because there
were times you forgot that itwas cgi, that it was computer generated
and you could, there was bitsand pieces where you can connect
with it. And you know, you andI are of a certain age, but with
what's coming out now, thoselittle bits and pieces are turning

(17:17):
into like 5, 10, 20, 30minutes of a movie that you're just
like really invested in. Youforget that it's cgi, you know, the,
the Planet of the Apes. Iremember when that first came out,
you know, where people were inreally horrible masks, you know.
Yeah. The later ones, theywere just. The costuming was horrible

(17:41):
for it. The first ones weregood, but the last ones were bad.
But then they came out withall the CGI and it just blew up.
I was amazed with how great itwas and how I got carried away. And
I'm a theater guy. I know I'mgoing to be manipulated by it and
I accept that. But I was justamazed at how quickly I was manipulated

(18:05):
by it and how invested Ibecame in it. I'm a big fan of it.
Something that you had talkedabout is, you know, with AI and with
the technology that we'rehaving now, independent artists,
you know, struggle with,especially in the past, they wouldn't
be able to, you know, do thesekind of productions, you know, maybe

(18:26):
20, 30 years ago, you wouldn'tbe able to go out on the ocean and,
you know, you know, do your,or do, do your digital art. What
are some ways that independentartists can lower their production
costs but maintain that highquality work?
Well, as you know, when youtalk about resources and production

(18:49):
costs, that's what's held backa lot of the really creative, innovative
stuff over the years. Not thatthose people didn't exist, but it
was very rarefied air wherethey would connect to a patron who
would fund their ideas but notmess up their project. Not like completely
trash. You know, when you areaccepting thousands or, you know,

(19:13):
millions of dollars, in thecase of films from investors, be
they benevolent or, you know,borderline gangsters, then you are
kind of forced to compromiseyour vision. And that's why when
it came time for like theShape of Water and Guillermo del

(19:33):
Toro made it for 19 million,he didn't have to compromise very
much at all. His previous twomovies were Pacific Rim and Crimson
Peak. And they both cost. Theycost a lot. Pacific Rim made the
most money, but it also coststhe most he's ever spent on things.
And so the way to keep yourproduction costs down, I think that

(19:54):
usually starts with, you know,what do I want to make? What can
I make with what I have? Andthen you can be ambitious in your
dreams and be like, okay, whatdo I want to make? And when we were
just talking, you werementioning the Apes films and other
ones where you get investedinto the story. I mean, usually it's
because it's a good story andthen it's executed well. I'm trying

(20:15):
to think of a good example ofa story that's really good but was
executed poorly. And I can'tthink of one off the top of my head,
but I know they exist. Youknow, same with, like, comics that
have good writing, but the badart. And you're like, can't do this.
The working within your means.It doesn't just mean what locations
you have access to or whatpeople can act in front of your things

(20:37):
or what models you can shoot.You can be creative with that in
the sense of, well, I don'thave an alien planet, or I don't,
you know, I want to have adreamlike sequence. But I'm thinking
of having, like, people flyaround in space and stuff. So I need
maybe a harness and a rig formy actors. Tweak it a little bit.

(20:59):
I use procreate dreams toanimate on my iPad. And what if I
did a little animated sequencefor that dream sequence and I just
did it myself? You know, thatcost nothing versus getting a warehouse
and a rig and having, like,insurance and all that. I couldn't
even imagine what that littlebit would cost. Or you take a photograph

(21:22):
of somebody, cut it out withscissors, you know, doesn't have
to be all digital. And thenyou just kind of like move it around
and like a time lapse or stopmotion effect or any of the other,
like, super creative ways thatpeople in the past have done things.
A lot of times I go back tothe 1930s and 1920s and George Millay
from the early 1900s, youknow, because they did stuff that

(21:46):
is so achievable by humanstandards and in your own apartment
today. But a lot of Peoplekind of forget about those old time
effects for sure. I think. Ithink a lot of the ideas that an
independent creator orindependent production studio could
do to save costs is notimagine everything is like fantasy

(22:08):
and science fiction, butmaybe, you know, start with the real
world and then build theirfantasy and science fiction elements
on top of it. Because if youlook at filmmaking or animation or
whatever in general, well,animation and comics are a little
different because all drawingscost the same.
Right, right.

(22:28):
It doesn't matter if you'redrawing something epic or something
small scale. It's just, youknow, lines and elements moving on
a screen. But if they'retrying to do something in reality
and all of a sudden itinvolves period costumes or special
effects, it balloons. So Ijust saw this really good film and

(22:52):
it's called Snack Shack. AndI'm. I don't remember the filmmaker's
name, but he came fromNebraska, same as me. And it was
a story in 1990. One of thesetwo goofy teenagers who have all
these schemes to make moneyand they think that they're going
to make a lot of money out ofthe Snack Shack by a pool in summertime.
No special effects at all. Youknow, great writing, hilarious premise,

(23:16):
very relatable. And I didn'tlook up what the budget of the film
was. But, you know, the lowerthe investment to begin with, the
less pressure it is for it tobe more and more of a. The less likely
it's to be like a totalfailure disaster that's going to
make you lose your house orsomething. So, I mean, to summarize,

(23:39):
I think, you know, what youhave access to. What are alternate
ways to express ideas thatmight be more complicated? And start
with reality before you buildin the things that cost the most.
For sure, for sure. Youbrought up that, you know, you're

(23:59):
from Nebraska, you've livedin. Well, you're near Los Angeles
now. We had a fun chat aboutPhoenix. Love that town. It's trying
to kill you, but I love it.What are, you know, like, the advantages
and drawbacks of locationslike that of those three areas for
an artist, I have a theaterbackground. Everybody in, you know,

(24:21):
that I was learning from andgrowing up with saying.
Go to New York, go to New York.
Me being from Chicago, I'mlike, no, because they have horrible
pizza in New York. And you cando everything in Chicago that you
can do in New York for halfthe price. How does location affect
what you're trying to do?
Well, Omaha being the Midwest,there's not a lot of, like, outside

(24:47):
cultural influence. And peopleare really in the mentality of you
go to your job, you getmarried, and then you, like, when
you get off work, you go todinner with your family. There's
more restaurants per capita,apparently, in Omaha than anywhere.
Or there was at one point intime when I lived there. And then
you. You watch TV and then yourinse and repeat. And there have

(25:12):
been creative people that havecome out of there, but much like
Phoenix is kind of few and farbetween. If I was to name names,
311 is a band that. They wentto Millard north, and I went to Millard
South High School. But MatthewSweet, Johnny Carson, maybe. Like,
there's not very many names,you know, and that. That was a long

(25:34):
gap of time that I justmentioned there. Oh, and then there
was Saddle Creek records inthe 90s, in the early 2000s, which
had a band called Bright Eyesand one called the Faint. It's, you
know, weird art and even,like, trying to have a career in
it. It's not supported.Arizona is a little different because

(25:54):
there's a lot of culturaltourism there. But the art that is
supported there on the wholewould still be Native American and
Southwestern kind of rusticstuff. A lot of things that are made
out of junk, like literal junkand trash. And the issues with both
of those locations is thatthere's a part of the year where

(26:14):
everything is just crummy. Youknow, Omaha is, like, cold and nasty
in this. Not as cold asChicago, not that bone chill, but
from the lake. But it's coldand sludgy and gray. I remember it
was gray for six weeks oncewhen I lived there. And then in the
summertime, it's humid becausewe're on the river. And I had allergies.

(26:35):
So, you know, you're. You justkept getting knocked down. Arizona
is the same with the heat. Anda lot of the art museums will close.
Everything closes in August.You know, the beginning of the heat
is usually like April and May,but by August, to use an analogy,
chickens. If you ever see achicken in an Arizona heat, it's
got its mouth, its beak isopen, and it's just panting. It's

(26:59):
like that.
Yep.
And I. I drove from there witha friend from Los Angeles to see
my kids, and I was like, watchwhen we go in the stores, the people
are just going to ring you up,and they're not going to say nothing.
You know, there's nochattiness or whatever. And it was
exactly that they got. It'd belike, 4:50. Thank you. Have a nice,
like, because they're justwiped out. And everything that you

(27:20):
might accomplish in those,like, productive, nice weather months,
you. Your inertia or yourmomentum will get cut in half. And
your motivation. And now thatI don't live there, it's almost three
years. And la, my kids domessage me and say, like, I just
have no motivation foranything. You are being damaged physically.

(27:44):
Los Angeles. Another reasonwhy we have our industries, our creative
industries, is because,specifically the movie one is because
the weather is prettytemperate, the light is different
coming from the ocean, and youcan reliably have a production run

(28:08):
for three months. And, youknow, that'll be rainy days and stuff
like that, but generally it'llstay in a comfortable zone that you
can create in. And then justin general, like, if you're a creative
person, it makes sense to bean actor, a musician. People understand
you and they support you andyou're supporting other creative

(28:28):
people and you have creativefriends and things like that. When
I lived in those other places,I had a few creative friends, actually.
I think a lot of my modelshoots that I did in Arizona and
Columbus, Ohio, where I travelin Nashville and stuff like that,
I would find the few weirdosin those cities and we would be able
to create really cool stuff,but they didn't have a purpose to

(28:51):
it. You know, they. Peoplewant to be creative, but they want
to do it in small doses. Andif they don't have a purpose, it'll
just be a thing that fadeswith their, you know, their 20s or
whatever here. You know, beingon podcasts, going to shows, making
new music, being on socialmedia and talking about my stuff
and supporting other creativefriends, like, it has a purpose to

(29:14):
it. And it's an understood. Idon't have people around me going,
why are you doing that? Whenyou know, oh, we got to go to dinner
with family tonight. I knowyou had. I know you were deep in
this book project, but, like,you know, you can do that anytime.
The momentum keeps up, it goessomewhere and beyond that. I've never
lived by water in my life,okay. And it feel maybe in 20 years

(29:39):
time, bad things will happenand I'll be like, I'm done. You know,
a lot of people are like thatin Los Angeles, too. They have bad
experiences.
Sure.
But I chose the area I live,which is. It's adjacent to Long beach
and Palos Verdes.
Okay.
Which are very much lesspopulated. In San Pedro, we had a
really famous author. Who'sthe most famous drunk author you.

(30:01):
Can think of, Charles Bukowski.
That's Him.
Yep. So.
So this is where he lived and.
Yeah.
And although. And we havereally well known punk rock club
here where the Minutemen werea famous punk rock band that came
out of San Pedro. And we havea lot of like classic car culture

(30:22):
and it's just nice andisolated. Nobody where I live is
Botoxed or anything. And Ihadn't considered myself a writer,
but I'm seeing how like thissort of seaside isolation, San Pedro
and Palos Verdes and Longbeach, has benefits writing. And

(30:43):
the book I made last year wasfor a publisher, it was like a gift.
Beginner's Guide to ProcreateDreams. It was a sort of how to manual
for an iPad animation app. ButI find like, just I live by the ocean.
It's got a pulse to it. Theair is different and it makes you
feel a little more lively. Andwhen I go back to Arizona, I'm just

(31:05):
shriveled like a mummy now.I'm not acclimated to it at all.
Yeah.
Do you find that differentplaces you've lived have benefited
you in different ways creatively?
Absolutely. So being fromChicago, it's a different kind of
mindset. It's, you know,everyone's doing their stuff. Everyone
is supporting everybody. Youcan be, you know, you can be a weirdo

(31:29):
or a freak or whatever youwant to be, but, you know, everyone's
scratching for whateverattention they can get and whatever
audience they can grab, andeverything is pretty well accepted
now. When I lived in Abilene,Texas, when I was in the Air Force,

(31:50):
I did that for three years.That was, you're in the middle of
nowhere. You have 10 peoplethat are, you know, as nutty as you
are, and that's it. And thereis no community support whatsoever.
We're having the cops calledon us because we're having a drag

(32:11):
show or we're, you know, we'rereading poetry out in the street.
After a poetry reading, youknow, we're actually going out there
and reading poetry and copsget called on us. So Texas was kind
of strange, but the peoplethere were really nice. They just
didn't support the arts. Andnow that I live here in Virginia,

(32:31):
it's big enough. We have oneof everything, maybe two of everything.
And there are pockets ofculture here. It's a lot of history,
a lot of Revolutionary War andCivil War history is the big thing.
But there's pockets there. Itry to, you know, be the old man
at most of the pockets and,you know, encourage them and stir

(32:56):
them up a bit and get themgoing. It's tough, though, because
we're kind of a bedroomcommunity because most people commute
to D.C. from here. So it'sfinding that audience that isn't
commuting up to D.C. that is,you know, staying in town and. And
connecting with that audience,that's. That can be difficult because

(33:19):
after an hour and a halfcommute, you tired, you want to go,
you know, go home, havedinner, go to bed with, you know,
and put the kids to bed. Andyou don't have much of a social life
after that. So that's thestruggles that we have here right
now. So hopefully it getsbetter. But, you know, I retire from
my day job in about sevenyears, so maybe I'm moving to California.

(33:41):
I don't know, man.
Well, the two other things Iforgot to mention, one is that because
we attract all these likecreative black sheep, the talent
level is just higher. When youwork with a makeup artist or something
here, they know what they'redoing. They've like, yeah, they've
been on productions and theydo the Universal Horror Night and
you know, Shacktoberfest,which is Shaquille O'Neal's Halloween

(34:04):
Festival by the Queen Mary,which is like a boat bigger than
Titanic in Long Beach. But.And the other thing is that the culture
supports. Here are any nightof the week, if you were wanting
to get out, you could go see aband that you like and you've heard
of, or you could go to amuseum that has one of your favorite

(34:24):
artists. And so like the broDowntown LA is free and has like
a lot of modern postmodern. Isee the Basquet paintings that I
like. I just stand there. Andthen I came to go, you know, didn't
have to pay admission. Justwent and hang out in that room and
catch some vibes a little bitand then move on. They have a lot
of Keith Haring, who I reallylike. And then, you know, band wise,

(34:47):
I think when I moved here, Ihad a vehicle I that got trashed.
And I since learned to do allpublic transport. But I was seeing
like Metric Death Cap forCutie Muse, which I weren't sure
of.
Nice.
All these bands in a row. Andthen I signed up for something called
Du La, which is like $5 amonth. And they give you tickets
to events that aren't sellingout. And so I would go see like M83

(35:11):
and Uncle James Lavelle's liketrip hop, like for five bucks. And
that was pretty cool. So,yeah, anything that doesn't sell
out, they have extra ticketsand they just Try and, you know,
get the venue full. Arizonawas far and few between when I actually
went and saw shows. And thenOmaha, we would get lucky a couple

(35:33):
times. Like Nine Inch Nailscame twice in 94, 95, because they
wanted to film a concert thesecond time. But yeah, it's the magnet
for people. And bigger shows,more well known stuff. Yeah, even
like the little scrappyartists here are really good because

(35:54):
of what they're exposed to andwhat they have access to.
Yeah, I was gonna say, you canonly listen to Bright Eyes so many
times before, it's just like,okay, I'm done. You know, it's like
in Chicago we have ViolentFemmes. Well, they came from Milwaukee,
Wisconsin. Love the ViolentFemmes. I can, you know, put them

(36:14):
on repeat for maybe a day ortwo. And then I'm like, okay, I gotta
hear something else. I gotta,you know, I gotta go listen to some.
I'll throw on some jazz orI'll throw on some punk rock, but
I'm just like, yeah, I'm done.
Yeah. And you know what'sfunny is I never listened to bright
eyes or 311 or any of theother one. Matthew Sweet, never once.

(36:34):
And I might have heard it on aradio or something. And I had a friend
who played a trumpet on aBroadway Bright Eyes album, but our
trombone don't want to messthat up. But my music tastes were
never like that. And then theonly Arizona band that I liked but
they didn't play while I livedthere is Jimmy Eat World is the Middle.
And the other Arizona bandswould be like the Funk Junkies and

(36:56):
the people who made the. TheRefreshments, who made the King of
the Hill theme. Oh, yeah, andthe Gin Blossoms. And that's all
I can think of. Occasionallythere's like, you know, Alice Cooper
and Stevie Nicks and stufflike that lived there, but I didn't
listen to that either.
Yeah, I couldn't tell you thelast time I listened to an Alice
Cooper album. I couldn't tellyou. It's been a minute. It's been

(37:17):
a minute. Not this decade,that's for sure. So one kind of get
a little bit more personal onyour end here, you know, working
in, if I heard you right,working in education, teaching. Does
that fuel any of your creative work?
Yeah, I got My degree in 2006from ASU in Fine Arts photography.

(37:39):
And then I went back about amonth or two later and I said, what
do you do with this? To myprofessor. And of course she's a
professor, and she's like,well, you get into educate. You can
teach people how to use thisstuff. And it's like, well, that's
not why I became an artist.However, I am kind of an evangelist
for all these mediums and the.Not every single creative tool there
is out there, but the onesthat I really connect with that I

(38:00):
think are like, suitable formy kind of esoteric interests. And
so I got into teaching, butArizona didn't have that many high
school art teacher jobsavailable. And I ended up doing more
on like the art center sideMesa Arts center. And then mid 2010s,
there were things likeSkillshare and Udemy that were getting

(38:22):
big and popular. And up toPandemic times, I was filming a lot
of tutorials on my own. Andthen when the pandemic hit, that's
when people like had nothingto do and they really got on those.
I actually encourage anybodywho's creative and can speak in front
of a camera, do a YouTubechannel, and then have bigger art
tutorials on these other sitesbecause there are videos that will

(38:45):
make recurring income for youas long as your information is, like,
unique and you teach well.The. The way that education helps
one is for people who want tolearn things. You know, it brings
their eyes to the work that Iactually do, but also it's an incentive
for me to learn new things allthe time. Like Character Animator

(39:07):
is motion capture softwarethat Adobe has where you make a.
You basically design a puppetin Illustrator or Photoshop and then
you move around and itanimates and you can do live animation,
you can live stream yourcharacters, you can make animated
shows. They don't have to bedrawings, they can be photographs.
And so I've done things thathave that kind of Terry Gilliam look
to it, but knowing that if Ilearned that program or if I learned

(39:33):
Procreate Dreams when it cameout two Thanksgivings ago, if I just
sit down and learn it andscreen record everything I'm doing
and turn those into tutorials,then one, I'm an early adopter.
Yeah.
And those lessons or thosevideos kind of like lead to other
things. The Procreate Dreamsvideos I made on skillshare led to
writing a book for apublisher. And it's still, as far

(39:55):
as I know, is the onlyProcreate Dreams how to Book that's
out there. But the other thingis it's in the teaching process.
If you're teaching tostudents, they ask questions. You're
like, I don't know the answerto that, but I'll find the answer.
You learn A lot through theprocess of teaching and of all the
ways that we make money asartists, you know, you can design
your own wares and then sellthem, you know, at a, on a table,

(40:20):
at an arts event or on gallerywalls or on a shop like an Etsy or
ebay or all that you can dofreelance, where you go around and
find who needs your skills andthen you're applying for those jobs,
be you a comic artist or amakeup artist or a photographer,
you know, hire me to do yourphotography. Well, the reality of

(40:41):
that is you, if you're kind ofmore pursuing your own vision, then
you're not going to like thejobs that you get paid for. The other
ways to make money as artists,you can flip gear, you, you can get
kind of good at identifying,especially like the camera world,
lenses and stuff like that,and go around to estate sales, be

(41:02):
more of like a, you know, likethose Storage wars people are ebay
flippers or whatever. Or youcan teach like those are primary
ways to make money. There'sother ways, of course, you could
generate assets like a stockcreator, so you create stock photos,
videos, textures,illustrations. But I find that teaching

(41:24):
is rewarding and social. And Ihave a vision, so I like generating
my own stuff. And I usually doit on a scale I don't need to, you
know, do any sort ofcrowdfunding or backers or anything
like that.
Understood. I agree with you.The whole education thing, I. My
degrees in theater pedagogy,so theater education with a specialization

(41:48):
in directing. And when I wasteaching, taught scene shop and I
taught speech class, publicspeaking class, hence why I have
a podcast, of course. But thatinteraction with the students and
their unique vision, what theybring to the table, and asking those

(42:12):
questions, I would see myother grad students and my other
adjunct faculty kind of cringeand go, I can't tell them. I don't
know. I'd be the first one totell them. I don't know the answer.
Let's find out together. And Imean, yeah, I sat through some wonderful
lectures, had some wonderfulprofessors, but when I was able to

(42:36):
go with my students and learnwith them and then take it to my
professors and go, this iswhat we learned that was well worth
the price of college. I reallyenjoyed those interactions with you.
So I can definitely,definitely support what you're saying
there for that. So my, my, mylast question for you here is, what's

(43:00):
next for you? What's comingup? What should we be looking out
for in terms of projects thatyou're doing? Maybe a new book. What
should we be looking out for?
So circling back to AI and Iwas recommended the one that I like
the most, called Claude, byvery famous entrepreneur named Seth

(43:22):
Godin.
Yeah, he has a lot of.
Yeah, he's a genius. He'sreally empathetic and artistic and
creative minded for beingsomebody who's all about business.
And I've kind of been. I'malways like recycling old ideas I
have of things I've never everfinished. And it got me thinking
at least to get a structure.The area I'm weakest in as an artist

(43:45):
is like the structure. Youknow, I tried to make screenplays
and things where I just likewhat goes where and what, you know,
ramps up tension and what. SoAI is especially helpful for getting
a structure of a thingtogether. I took 10 hours of my YouTube
channel from last 6 years anddownloaded all the videos that I've

(44:08):
had, at least the successfulones, and put them in Premiere, got
transcripts of everything andthen have been feeding Claude the
transcripts to pick out stuffthat there's like a certain amount
of material in my own words,but that could be structured into
books. So the one that I havethe most content for is called the

(44:29):
INFP Creative. And I'llprobably put that independently because
I'm curious on what differenceit makes on the Amazon metrics between
the one that was released by apublisher and what I've learned from
them as far as like having tomarket it. And I'm going to see if
I can do it myself. Sure. Youknow, my YouTube channel is multimedia

(44:49):
arts and education. But partof it involves INFP Creative. INFP
is one of the Myers Briggspersonality types that I happen to
have and a lot of the wellknown fantasy writers and fantasy
filmmakers and you know,empathetic photographers who work
with like unusual people likeDiane Arbus or Man Ray, people who

(45:10):
investigate their dreams more,you know.
Sure.
Filmmakers and Andy Warhol andDavid lynch and Guillermo del Toro
and Neil Gaiman, I know he'scanceled currently, but Alan Moore,
those kind of Kermit the Frogand Jim Henson and all that. So I've
actually got 80 pages of thatbook, done it as a first draft and
then that was structured by AIbased on the 10 hours of material

(45:35):
I have already done in my lifeand fed through it. I have similar
ideas for film. One involvesthe continuum of creativity because
everything that peoplecomplain about AI, like absorbing
what I just said, you know, Ifed it my own material.
Yeah.
The idea that it like vacuumsup everything in the Universe and

(45:55):
then puts out its. Not its owniteration of. That's not unique to
AI. That's what we've beendoing as a species. And folk melodies
like the song Green Sleeves,you know, which is an old, very centuries
old English melody. And it'scarried through to modern times.
People like Pete Seeger andWoody Guthrie, you know, the folk

(46:18):
tradition is regurgitating thepast in new forms. And then, like
I said, I grew up in the eraof when hip hop was a lot of sampling
and techno. I love collage asan art style. I think it's very like
honest and direct. And italso. So it was a way to showcase
what your influences are, forsure. You know, and a lot of the
things that we celebrate asinnovative, original, be it the original

(46:42):
Star wars, which we know isbased off of like a dozen other sources.
Joseph Campbell and Kurosawa,the Hidden Fortress and. And Dune.
It's so funny to like, I'venever read the Dune books, but to
sit in the theater and thenthere's an emperor in the desert
planet and there's like allthis. The Force and all this stuff.
Stuff. It's just like, that'swhat Star wars, you know, or to read

(47:04):
Jack Kirby's New Gods bookswhere the villain's name is Darkseid
and instead of the sword theForce, it's the source. But that
all came out prior to StarWars. Even Guillermo del Toro I keep
talking about because I lovehim. Like, he's made a movie about
Pinocchio. He's made the Shapeof Water, is the Creature from a
Black Lagoon. He's gotFrankenstein coming out. He's done
movies on vampires and Hellboyand Blade, which were, you know,

(47:28):
common. Marvel care or I'msorry, Hellboy is not Marvel, but
they're. They were establishedpop culture characters.
Yeah.
And then things like PacificRim is basically Ultraman and other
kinds of Japanese old Sentaitype shows fed through his brain.
Like the levels of originalityin that are. Or anything else we
could mention, they're not as.They're not as original as you think.

(47:52):
Right.
But they're original becausethey're translated through a person.
So I want to make a film thatweaves together all these kind of
narratives where we aren'tjust looking at something that's
a gestalt or a juxtapositionor whatever, like a synthesis as

(48:12):
a bad thing. Because it's howwe've always operated. And I even
want to explore bootleg toysand some of the sillier ways that
we take an original idea or anIP or a sound or something, and then
like mutate it in a. Itsstupid way. Stupid but fun. And that's
the kind of project I wanted.I was like, the way you can make

(48:33):
that as an artist would be youhave interview footage, as all documentaries
do, but you do animation andyou use archival footage and you
use AI and the soundtrack isall collage. And like everything
would be collaged in everydirection. The closest thing I could
point to somebody is like thevision for this is. It's a short

(48:53):
film. I think it's like 14minutes long. It's called the Was.
And the music is byAvalanches. And I have to look up
the. The animator or the videoeditor because they did such a good
job. Avalanches is. I thinkthey're Australian. They're a production

(49:15):
duo. And all of their music iscompletely sampled in a similar way
to like Fat Boy Slim orChemical Brothers or something like
that.
For sure.
Okay. Soda Jerk is the name ofthe other artists involved in. It's
on YouTube and it has allthese elements from TV shows, animation
stuff, mostly from the 70s and80s, and they're all interacting.

(49:37):
And another example would bethis Steve Martin movie from the
early 80s called Dead MenDon't Wear Plaid.
Oh, yeah, I remember that.
Where. Who's Mel Brooks'scomedy partner?
Oh, he's had.
He produced. Yeah, he. Thisguy did the three movies that Steve
Martin is the funniest in. TheMammoth, Two Brains, Dead Man, Don't
Wear Plaid and the Jerk. Andat the time, I think the film company

(50:01):
was like, we need to renewcopyright on all these old films.
So Carl Reiner, that's what it is.
That's.
He go. They go to Carl Reinerlike, what can you do? And he said,
well, I'll make a film whereSteve Martin is interacting with
them, you know, and forth. Idid a similar project with character
animator and it was all publicdomain comics material and public

(50:22):
domain radio show stuff. Itook one actor male that I really
liked, and one actor femalethat I really liked. And I went through
all their hundreds of publicdomain 1940s and 50s radio shows
and pulled out all theirquotes and then collaged it together.
Same with the imagery. Ipicked a blond guy from 1950s Comics
and brunette woman. Andbecause the comics in the 50s were

(50:42):
like war, romance, theyweren't. Didn't have superheroes,
sci fi and crime. I made as.It's not like the best film in the
world, but it went. It waslike a journey through those genres.
Everything was collage and sothat's how I envisioned this continuum
of creativity. Film.
Nice.
And the way I pictured itactually had, you know, AI, of course,

(51:06):
helps structure budgets andtiming and locations and what would
be good starter shots. All ofus human beings should use our imagination
after we get the list to like,enhance it and change it. And you're
like, okay, that's a good ideato start with, but I can do better.
Right.
That's something that'llprobably take a few years to get
together, but I think it's aworthy endeavor. And I think there

(51:26):
isn't anything long form thatwould cross over those boundaries.
Usually when you see sort oflike a music or creative documentary,
it focuses on a particular eraor a particular, like a drum machine
or something and how it's beenused, some piece of technology, which
are good entry points for. Forviewers. But I think that conceptually

(51:51):
the idea of you're. You are asponge, right? And you sucked up
things as a kid. You've hadthings happen to you, you've lived
in different places, you sawmovies that sometimes they would
have been the best movie ever,but you were in a bad mood, so it
didn't affect you. But you sawsome trash movie and you were feeling

(52:12):
really low and it made youlike all of that translates through
to what you make. And itdoesn't matter if it's an acoustic
guitar, a sampler, aturntable, a AI generative tool,
a digital drawing app ordigital photography or film or whatever,
but, like, it's the sameconcept. And so that is a very long

(52:37):
winded way to say that's afilm that, like, I'm really passionate
about and I'm hoping to getout there. I think the first step,
though, is to get someinterview footage. And also I've
been doing a lot of littlecollage animations for my Suno music
project called Magdalena. Andalso I've been animating Marvel stuff
just to get more eyeballs onthe procreate dreams thing. So it's

(52:59):
all animation, but it's likemy. The esthetic that I'm describing
is all in all present inthose. And so I'm going to have material,
then I can stitch togetherlike 10 minutes and say, this is
what it's going to look like.And that includes I use my phone
when I walk around because I'mon foot. And I photograph all the

(53:21):
letters on the local LosAngeles signs that have some sort
of like industrial wear tothem, or it's a donut shop. So the
O is a donut type. You know.
Right.
And anywhere I can get acollection of letters, I have this
really long procreate templatethat has all my A's, all my B's.
Kind of like, you know, an oldprinting press would have their various

(53:46):
fonts and stuff. Well, I havethat all in Procreate, and they're
all kind of unique. I had todo it because I was using a ransom
note font, and it looked likea font, and I hated it.
Yep.
I'm seeing letters everywhere.You know, maybe they're on a sign
way up there. Maybe they'relike the spray paint on the ground.
Or maybe it's somebody's tagor something. Or a bus stop advertisement

(54:07):
for a movie called the Wolfmanor whatever, had cool W. But that's
all present in the recentanimations I've been doing. So. And
I have found that just thatlittle extra level of texture, you
know, it's from my ownexperience. It isn't all AI generated,
as someone might think, youknow? And again, like, the overall
collage aesthetic comesthrough, and I make all the. I go.

(54:30):
I work in micro projects tomake the big project, so.
That makes sense. No, thatmakes. Because I've dabbled a little
bit in collage, mainly becauseof, you know, the show here, because
I was trying to challengemyself to different projects that
I haven't done before, and Iactually cut up a. A comic book magazine

(54:52):
that. It was like a trade kindof thing that my. My guy who was
comic book store owner, he washanding these out for free. So I
was like, oh, let me try this.And I was cutting stuff out and putting
it together, and then Inoticed, wait, I'm doing this a certain
way, and there's a message inthere that I'm subconsciously putting

(55:14):
into it that I can see andother people could see most of it.
And, yeah, collage is. It'sstill magical for me. It's still
a magical art form for me, andthat's why I enjoy it. And, you know,
with you talking a lot ofcollage stuff, I'm like, all right,
when are you putting thisstuff out? We got to see it. So.
Yeah. Well, I think the. Thecollage patchwork mindset is just

(55:43):
unique enough that too manypeople think linear. Linearly. And
I mean, movies aren't evenmade, you know, Right. In order of
scenes. But when you thinkthat way, it's complex, but it's
very simple. It's almost likebrutal the way you're talking about.
You just got scissors.

(56:03):
Right.
And.
Yep.
Decision tape. And you canmake something Cool. That's got some
appeal because we learned inart school that engagement of a viewer
requires some sort of, like,mystery or some kind of, like, connection
where you have to, like,imagine, you know, what this ethereal

(56:25):
woman who's like, covering,you know, like, there's interest
there, but if you just had aperson standing there and there's
nothing to guess at or like,to finish in your head, right then
the brain is not as engaged.And the same with collage. It's like
you're kind of figuring outhow the puzzle pieces fit a little
bit and. But more to thepoint, I think it is a wonderful

(56:47):
way to get a thing done.
Exactly.
And on a, you know, a granderscale. Films that are shot against
green screen, not that I thinkthose are the greatest films. It
doesn't matter. If it has goodstory, then it's. It can be that
way. But. But they'recollaging in the background or I
watched on one of thoseHollywood roundtables, filmmaker

(57:09):
of Blade Runner, spacing hisname off the top of my head Gladiator
and. Oh, he did Gladiator 2 recently.
Yep.
And so he was Ridley Scott. Hewas describing how the character,
the actors were filmed in onelocation, maybe Sardinia or something
like that, and the actual,like, location around them was filmed

(57:32):
in Morocco or some otherplace. And then other, the third
elements that were Compton andit was all seamless and like, that's
just a grander form ofcollage. So when you think like that
way, though, it's notimpossible for a person to film an
interview, change the setting,or, you know, in your case, you're
doing podcasts, maybe somedayyou choose to do a thematic one.

(57:56):
And so you just cut up partsof all these interviews that relate
to that theme. I see that on aFilm Courage YouTube channel where
it's like, oh, yeah, this isthe two hour episode about funding
your thing. And it has allthis advice from different filmmakers
and sometimes contradictorybecause their experiences were all
different. But, you know, ifyou wanted to, like, have a master's
class in funding your film,watching two hours of people who've

(58:18):
actually done it, and varietyperspectives is cool way to engage
it.
Awesome.
Awesome. Well, I think we canall use a little collage in our lives,
in our artistic practice,that's for sure. And you know, and
recognize that's kind of whatwe're doing. So, David, it has been
fantastic talking with youhere today. A lot of the references
that you made, I'm justsitting there going, I know that

(58:40):
guy. You know, when you saidSeth Godin, I just about ah, you
know, I.
About lost good person tolisten to. You know, he's a helpful
mentality. Like he's not thereto take, he's there to give. And
he thinks being generous withyour knowledge and your time and
your resources is a way tosucceed in business, which is unfortunately
not the way a lot of peopleperceive it. They view more dog eat

(59:01):
dog but you know. Yeah, makesyou like realize that you don't have
to be a jerk to pursue yourdream or whatever it is. You really
build a business.
You really don't. Well David,thank you so much for joining us
here today. Thank you for allthe generosity that you've given

(59:21):
us here today and definitelyappreciate what you've just shared
with us.
That was great talking to you.
All right, well, thank you somuch for listening to this episode
of Creator Podcast with DavidMiller. Just a couple of things I
wanted to toss in there. Acouple of takeaways that I got.
Was that AI tools aren't just for.

(59:43):
You know, tech savvy artists.They can enhance your creativity
and streamline your process.And it's really important to articulate
your vision clearly when usingAI because, you know, if you use
vague prompts, it's going tobe disappointing and then you're
not going to use it. And youknow, if we embrace AI, it can reduce

(01:00:07):
your production costs and thestress that you have for creating
things. And maybe becauseyou're reducing the costs, you can
create bigger and betterthings. You never know. Now you're
probably asking yourself, hey,Tim, how did you get David on your
show? Well, I use a servicecalled Podmatch and what that does
is it allows podcast guestsand hosts to connect with each other.

(01:00:30):
Now I do receive a smallcommission for that and I do have
my links in the show notes.But I'm going to tell you, I'm not
going to bring anybody on thisshow that I have not personally talked
to and know a little bitabout. And if I don't think it's
worth value to you, I'm notgoing to bring them on the show.
Obviously, I think this bringsa lot of value to you. So that's

(01:00:52):
why I brought David on fortoday's episode. Another service
that I use, and this is mainlyfor my podcasters that are out there,
is called Podcast Beacon. Andwhat that does is it gives you a
wearable that's connectedright with your website. So you can,
instead of, you know, handingout just business cards that get
thrown away, you can hand, youcan, you know, stick out your wrist

(01:01:15):
and have somebody put theirphone over your wearable and it'll
take them right to yourwebsite. Or there's key fobs, and
if you have to have a businesscard, they have that there, too.
And you can have whomeveryou're handing it out to go right
to your website and put itright in their phone again. Affiliate

(01:01:37):
links are going to be in theshow notes, and I do get a small
commission for that. And thelast thing I want to talk about is
that this is a production ofTKB Podcast Studio. That's my new
podcast production company.That's where I help my clients lead
through the noise with quietprofessionalism. To find out more,
go to tkbpodcaststudio.com andlet me help you create the next best

(01:02:03):
podcast. Now, if you'd like tobe on the show, please feel free
to reach out to me. Or if youhave ideas for the show, definitely
reach out to me.Timothyreateartpodcast.com Love to
hear what you're doing. Loveto see here if you're using AI in
your artistic approach. Sodefinitely email me, let me know

(01:02:24):
what's going on there in yourneck of the woods. All right, I need
to get on with my day. I'mgoing to let you get on with your
day, but as I always say, goout there, tame that inner critic.
Create more than you consume.Make a new friend with AI and go
out there and make some artfor somebody you love. Yourself.

(01:02:46):
I'll talk to you next time.

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