Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I don't know about you, butI've always wondered why artists
create art.
Why do they feel the drive todo that?
Have you ever wondered that?
Well, in this episode, I'mgoing to be speaking with Kristen
Swan on why she creates art.
(00:22):
It's a fundamental question,and I'll be telling you why I create
art as well.
Welcome to Create Art Podcast.
I'm your host, Timothy Keem O'.
Brien.
With over 30 years in the artsand education world to help you tame
(00:44):
your inner critic and createmore than you consume.
I'm your head instigator, andI have started a new series here
in 2025, and I'm calling itthe New Artist Compass.
Now, why am I doing a new series?
Well, I've been thinking for anumber of years, hey, what's it like
(01:07):
to be a brand new artist?
What's it like to put yourselfout there and pick up the pen, the
chef's knife, whatever it is,whatever you're interested in.
So I'm going to be doing thisseries and I have a number of topics.
I have about 12 topics thatI'll be talking about, and it's my
(01:28):
hope that this helps you findyour calling and gives you some of
the ideas that new artistsneed to be successful in their calling.
These ideas and topics arewhat I wish I would have known to
ask.
And as a new artist, you maynot know to ask these things.
You may not know what thesethings are.
(01:50):
I'm lucky I, you know, wentthrough college and got the experience
there that I got.
But let's say you didn't.
Well, this series is going tohelp you as a new artist, answer
a lot of questions, give you alot of ideas, and get you well on
(02:11):
your way to becoming theartist that's hidden deep inside
you.
Today I'm going to be talkingwith Kristen Swan, and I met her
through a service that I usecalled podmatch.
Now, what podmatch does is itconnects podcast hosts and guests
together and, you know, youcan do your interview and have a
(02:34):
really wonderful time.
It's a great community.
There's links in the show,notes on how you can be a member
of Pod Match.
You can use my affiliate linkif you like.
And I do, you know, need tolet you know that sometimes there
is some compensation that isput out there for the hosts by having
these guests on.
I want to assure you that Ionly bring on guests here that I
(02:58):
think you will benefit from.
So, you know, legally, I gotto let you know that.
But let's get moving on withwho Kristen Swan is.
So Kristen excels inleadership training, group moderation,
writing, design, interviewing,and research.
After she had a career inlandscaping design, she focused on
(03:21):
business coaching.
And I know what you're thinking.
You're like, Tim, this is anart show, not a business show.
But you know, if you'velistened to other episodes of mine
that I work a 9 to 5, I workin business.
Kristen recognizes thechallenges of founder syndrome and
high burnout rates forprofessional service business owners.
(03:41):
And she has developed the 4S'sof success, structure, systems, strategy,
and space.
The 4S's provides a frameworkfor independent owners and entrepreneurs
who struggle to stay in theirzone of genius and build profitable
businesses.
Now, I'm just going to stopthere for a second and go, as an
(04:05):
artist, you're going to be an entrepreneur.
So you're going to want tolisten to folks that have that business
acumen and definitely takefrom them, take their advice, take
their ideas and apply it to yourself.
Now, she has a journal out there.
(04:26):
It's called Spaghetti on the Wall.
And as a dad of twins, I havepicked up many much spaghetti off
the wall.
But this one is calledSpaghetti on the wall and it's a
journal with prompts todevelop a habit of discernment and
was written after noticingsimilar concerns among many of her
(04:47):
coaching climates.
Now, her intent with Spaghettion the Wall is to provide a simple
tool for gathering multiplegreat ideas, noticing communication
challenges, and recognizingpatterns of behavior.
Folks, I have the links in theshow notes for this.
You definitely need to goahead and check out this journal.
(05:10):
Now, full disclosure here, Idon't have a copy of it yet, but
I do plan on buying it today.
So In September of 2025, thatwill be in my Amazon cart for sure.
Now, not only does Kristenhave the spaghetti on the wall journal
for you to look at, but shehas a retreat workshop called Discovering
(05:31):
your spiritual autobiography.
And that groom grew from anexercise that she had taught in the
past.
And you know, she had agrowing desire to do something about
increased polarization andhostility in the United States and
in the world.
Now, the workshop is non denominational.
It's in person, it's an experience.
(05:53):
And the original version was aeight week program meeting once a
week.
And one and two day retreatsare available.
So you'll need to go to herwebsite to find out when the next
one is.
So definitely check it out again.
Check out those show notes.
You'll get all the links for that.
All right, I've gone on long enough.
(06:14):
You know, you should be taking notes.
Pull out the notebook here today.
Take some notes on what you'regoing to be listening to today.
It's a conversation betweenKristen and myself.
Not really your typicalinterview, just more of a conversation.
So I'm going to step out ofthe way.
(06:41):
All right, thank you,everybody, for joining us here on
Create Art podcast.
And we're going to be talkingabout why we create.
And I have a wonderful guesthere with me tonight, Kristen Swan.
And, Kristen, how are youdoing, first and foremost, by the
way?
Oh, gosh, I am doing great.
(07:01):
And I am just.
I'm thrilled to be here withyou, Tim, and talking about a subject
that is really near and dearto my heart.
I mean, really something thatis vital to my.
How I operate and live.
I already feel like I'mtalking with a kindred spirit here.
(07:23):
I love this already.
I love it already.
We can hit stop and we're goodto go, but we're not going to, because
I want to find out more about Kristen.
And so just to start off thisconversation, because we haven't
known each other since highschool, so.
Right.
Can you tell me a little bitabout when you knew you were an artist,
(07:45):
kind of what was going on atthat time and what was the inciting
incident to.
To use a literary term?
Well, I think when I firstthought of becoming an artist and
took it seriously in terms ofthinking about it other than a pastime
(08:12):
for myself, because.
So I'll answer this questionin two ways, and I'll start with.
With really being in middleschool and having the opportunity
to have dedicated blocks ofclass that were art class.
Right.
And recently, one of thosevery formative teachers I met in
(08:37):
middle school, she recentlypassed away.
And she was just.
She was such a.
She looked the part.
Right.
I mean, she had this a little bit.
Definitely a hair cut that wasdifferent than the other teachers.
And when you'd go to Englishor math class and wore clothing that
was a little bit more, youknow, avant garde maybe.
(09:00):
But really, I think it waswhat was so alluring about her class
and opened my mind to thispossibility was her way of thinking
about our creative selves and what.
(09:23):
And how to.
Because we're kind ofsquirrely, you know, a bunch of squirrely
middle schoolers.
And.
And here we are.
It's.
We're doing drawing, andwe're, you know, we're.
We're supposed to be.
She's teaching us that westart with drawing our hands and.
Well, and things like that.
And.
And we're just, you know,we're were just behaving, you know,
(09:47):
as middle schoolers do.
And.
And so how to kind of how toopen up that invitation to us in
a way that got us settled down.
Right.
And really got us into a spacewhere you could be.
(10:08):
You could be accessing thatcreative side of your brain that
was essentially beingtranslated into this artistic endeavor
of drawing your hand.
And I think it.
Part of it was that it just.
(10:30):
Like my brain loved being there.
Like, my brain felt.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Like, my brain felt good inthat space.
It felt right.
It was just like, I'm supposedto be here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's almost been.
So I continued takingdifferent classes in the art department.
(10:54):
And I really loved photographybecause I loved being in the dark
room.
I liked.
I.
And I think that that processof when I found photography, especially
in the.
And it was, you know, it wasold school.
Was actually.
It wasn't digital cameras.
It was.
We had film and we developedit in the darkroom and then we printed
(11:17):
our photos in the other partof the dark room.
And.
But I.
There is.
I have always been drawn tomediums that have a real physical
nature to them that you are.
You.
There's that maker type of.
(11:37):
Of thing happening, and Ithink that's that piece that, you
know, go to my way back when Iwas much more, what.
Much smaller and younger anddoing, you know, doing things like
sewing with my grandmother,doing things like cooking.
Right.
Doing those activities that Ithink are.
(12:00):
Are artistic and creativeendeavors and had that maker element
to them, if that makes sense.
Kind of that tactile feelingwith that.
That you're.
You're using your hands,you're using your senses as opposed
to maybe.
Well, I don't know, becausewriting, you know, I get a tactile
(12:22):
feeling with writing when I'musing a pen and paper.
But it's.
We're not doing a video for this.
But, you know, if the listenercan imagine me just holding out my
hand there and holding a pen,you're doing that same motion as
a writer.
But when you're knitting, whenyou're sewing, you're going in and
(12:43):
out and it's the dance of your hands.
Right.
I did for my kids, I didbabies blankets.
I was doing.
I was having carpal tunnelbefore they were born.
So I had the surgery and formy therapy, I made baby's blankets.
Wow.
Haven't picked up a set ofsticks since then, but.
(13:08):
So I. I can't.
I. I get what you're saying.
There well, and I think that it's.
I mean, and I am a bigbeliever in putting pen to paper.
I do.
I love that and I love that,that feeling.
I think maybe what we're bothgetting at here a little bit is that
(13:28):
for something like knitting,something like sewing, and then even
later in my artisticexploration, I was doing things like
printmaking and where I wasmaking my own plates out of found
objects.
And.
And then also I did dabbledin, in caustic work.
(13:51):
And so there are, there arevery set there, there specific actions
that you are doing that arekind of set aside from your other
day to day types of activities.
So when I'm.
So I think maybe that's someof it.
Not that it really matters,but that's some of that, at least
(14:14):
in my head, that differentiation.
Because I mean, if I pick up apen and paper, there are times when
I'm picking it up to write thegrocery list, and then there are
times when I'm actuallypicking it up to do something that
is more in line with mycreative process.
Right.
(14:35):
But it's the same activity.
So I think there was somethinggreat about those specialized activities
that resulted in that, thatwere part of that creative process
for me.
Would you say it's kind oflike the intention, like if you're,
you know, sitting to writing agrocery list, you know, the.
(14:56):
Not necessarily.
I don't know, some people mayhave a really artistic grocery list.
I've made homes out of grocery lists.
Yeah, exactly.
I'm thinking.
Well, and also I'm thinking ofmy friends who are so wonderful at
little doodles.
And I can just see like thisbeautiful, you know, list of vegetables
with these gorgeous littlevegetable doodles, you know, next
(15:20):
to them.
I could, I could definitelysee that there are people who have
beautiful grocery lists.
So.
Yes.
No, nothing to disparage the,the grocery list.
No, we don't want to lose thatloser that, that, that listener base
here tonight.
No, no, absolutely not.
We love you, grocery list list makers.
We love you all.
(15:40):
All three of you.
Yes, absolutely.
But I, I think kind of whatyou're saying there is though, kind
of the intention of it.
Yeah, yeah.
Apart from the three peoplethat make beautiful grocery lists.
We'll keep them over here,we'll put them in the artist corner
there.
And I hate that term, theartist corner, the poet's corner.
I'm like, no, I, I want to bein the middle of the room and doing
(16:04):
something.
But it's that intention thatreally drives what's going on.
It's kind of A dance with thehands or, you know, what have you.
Right.
And that, that's fantastic.
Got me daydreaming, thinkingabout, you know, the, that that great
space where you are doing that.
(16:26):
That kind of your brain isengaged, your.
Your body is in this flow withdoing this dance and you know, and
you're.
You' or at least in my case,my heart feels so full.
And I think that I reallyalso, you know, I'm a big believer
(16:48):
that we are all creative.
Right.
I mean, I, so I, I also amalways pushing back a little bit
around, you know, whether ornot to use the word artistic or art.
And then the idea of being acreative person or bringing your
(17:13):
creativity to, to anythingthat, you know, problem solving to,
you know, even to kind oftravel or, you know, work situations,
you know, interpersonal kindsof things.
It's so, it's the.
(17:33):
I, yeah, it's.
It's that I think that therewas such good information early on
for me about how much I lovedwhere my, my.
How my brain felt in when Iwas accessing that creative side
(17:54):
of me that I, I have furtherkind of.
I.
Part of my journey and kind ofprofessionally has been how do I
keep that did.
Even if I'm doing things thataren't considered traditionally in
a creative field or artistic,how do I keep that same type of engagement
(18:20):
in my thinking, in my, in my,you know, the.
What's those thought processesthat are going on.
Sure.
And I think it's one of thereasons why this podcast is called
Create Art Podcast is that wayyou can use both words.
I was just like, yeah, I knowone word.
(18:41):
Use them both.
You know, the heck with that.
I, I think, and I don't knowyour experience with this, but, you
know, when I was growing up,there was always the, I guess the
art kids and then the jocksand then the stoners and, and all
that kind of stuff.
(19:03):
And I was always attracted tothe art kids and the stoner kids.
And I think, I don't know whenthis happened, but I, I think artists
got kind of a bad namebecause, you know, we're these people
that nobody understands.
And I think, you know, wayback in the day, I think that's partially
(19:25):
artists fault for notconnecting with their audience, not
knowing who their audience isand you know, making, you know, art
that's relevant to.
It doesn't have to be popmusic, it doesn't have to change
the world, but, you know,somebody's got to kind of understand
(19:46):
what you're going after.
And for me, I look at art ascommunicating the crazy stuff that
goes on up here becausethere's not much hair, so it's easier
to get out.
I'm not recommending everybodygo shave their head, but I think
(20:06):
one of the things that I'velearned is using art as communication
to find out this is how I viewthe world.
I want to show it to you inwhatever, you know, photography,
sculpture, music, whatever it is.
And with the people thatlisten to me, they seem to connect
(20:27):
with it better.
And the other thing that Ifind is that there's that communication,
there's that feedback.
So it's not always crickets.
When I go out, I get somefeedback and I feed off that feedback.
Feedback.
And I. I don't know if that'sbeen your experience or if that's
something.
If that resonates with you atall or.
(20:48):
Or is it just me and my bald head?
No, it's.
Definitely.
Well, there's a couple ofthings that I want to touch on that.
You said that really.
So I.
When I entered college, I wasa fine art major.
And I.
Because of this, you know,there's this.
(21:10):
This awakening in middleschool that this is a thing that
you can do.
And so I am determined.
That's what I'm.
That's what I'm going to studyin school.
And I.
And that was a greatexperience I got.
I met just some reallywonderful, very generous professors
(21:33):
who really guided me and were so.
Um.
My printmaking professor wasso wonderful in that I was doing
something that was so.
Could not be more oppositethan his style and his aesthetic
and even the materials he wasusing or that I was, you know, cobbling
(21:56):
together and how wonderfullyjust generous he was in.
In terms of his support.
So I feel like.
I feel like I had this kind ofwonderful collective experience in
a way, when I was in college.
And then when I thought about.
(22:19):
There were kind of a couple ofthings that.
That really kept me frompursuing art once I graduated.
And it was going back to thatcommunication piece.
One of the things that I thinkmakes for really powerful pieces
(22:44):
and impactful pieces, and it doesn't.
I'm not talking about like,you know, a million people love it,
but just that it reallyresonates with an audience is that
you are sharing something, atruth of yourself.
You're.
You're.
(23:04):
You are.
Whatever your medium is thatyou are taking something of yourself
and putting it forth.
And that is.
That allows for that.
That point of connection withyour audience.
And that was as a newlygraduated person from college, that
(23:29):
felt too Scary.
In that moment I could not do that.
So I, I kind of messed aroundwith doing a few pieces and I would
kind of half heartedly, youknow, do this and that, but they
didn't have any, I mean theywere boring pieces because they weren't
(23:52):
really, they weren't sayinganything in terms of, they weren't
reflecting anything in any,any thing of meaning or truth for
myself.
So there was that piece ofmyself just that I couldn't do that.
And then I think, I don't knowif I did this as a defense mechanism
(24:15):
just to kind of push the ideaof being an artist away.
But I, I also by that time hadhad enough experience with other
young artists and then kind oflooking throughout art history at
some of the more, you know,well known famous artists and it's
(24:37):
like, oh gosh, in order to bea great artist, you, you are.
It's selfish.
It's a very selfish endeavor.
Right?
You're, you are puttingyourself first.
And it's just.
And so I, I kind of built upthis story around like that's, and
(24:57):
really do I.
Is that the kind of person Iwant to be?
And you know, and I made upthis whole thing and I, like I said,
I think it really was this,this way of talking me out of a dream.
I had to be an artist and makea living out of being an artist.
(25:18):
And I am grateful that, youknow, we were saying that this episode
is all about why I create.
And as much as I was doing allof this distancing, right.
(25:38):
Whether it was in my own heador just even not doing any art, I
couldn't hide from thatimpulse to create.
I mean, it would just, it, itwould ooze out in all sorts of little
ways that whether it was, youknow, when I had, was renting a room
(26:02):
with roommates, you know,putting together my room and how
I, I set up my room and, andjust the things that I chose, you
know, I didn't have a lot ofthings, but the things that I chose
to include or even, you know,in cooking again, right.
We're talking about food.
I mean that to me is such acreative endeavor.
(26:23):
So was it couldn't, you know,the creativity could, had to come
out some.
Way and you yourself couldn'tcontain that.
It was, it was going to come out.
That's.
Yeah.
For sure.
When you say that it had tocome out, had to ooze out and you
(26:46):
were finding different waysfor that to happen.
You know, the things that youpicked for your room that you're
sharing with other people,with roommates, I guess, has sustained
you with your artisticpractice or what is it about this
creativity that we have to putout into the world, that, you know,
(27:07):
birth into the world, howeveryou want to put it?
How has that sustained you?
How has that kept you going?
Yeah, I, I.
What has occurred to mebecause I feel like I, you know,
there's.
There's a definite arc interms of the ways that my creative,
(27:31):
artistic self has expressedit, you know, has found a way to,
to be expressed.
And I now find myself in thisspace where I am doing much more
writing.
And, and the kind of awarenessthat I, I just came to recently was
(27:57):
that creativity for me and is a.
And especially through somesort of artistic expression is the
means that I have found to getto know myself and to understand
(28:20):
myself.
And it was.
I grew up in a kind of achaotic household, and so there was
a lot of, A lot of my copingskills were to just.
(28:42):
I felt like I was usually justtrying to keep things steady.
Right.
I'm.
I'm trying not to rock the boat.
I'm trying not to be too loud.
I'm trying not to be too messy.
I'm trying not to, you know,I'm just.
There are moments where I'mjust trying to disappear, and there
(29:03):
are.
And as a result, it didn't.
I got very good at.
I was pretty vigilant,sometimes hyper vigilant.
So I'm.
I got very good atunderstanding, kind of reading the
room and that it didn't allowfor me to get acquainted with who
(29:31):
I was.
Right.
And so it has been throughthese different, these different
types of creative endeavorsthat I get to know who I am better.
And I don't think, and I thinkwhy I am landing on writing now is
(29:54):
that I think I literallydidn't have the language back then.
Right.
Even as a young adult, even asa, you know, a mom, I still didn't
have the language.
And so I still was.
I, you know, was leaning into.
I, I was a landscape designerfor many years.
(30:16):
I was, you know, I, I didother types of design projects.
I did, you know, and it hasbeen through these different explorations
that I, I now feel like inthis moment, I have both the combination
of an awareness, a willingnessto be more vulnerable.
(30:41):
Right.
Going back to that, thatearlier fear that I had of really
putting together art for the,you know, visual art that revealed
anything about myself.
So I, I am at this moment ofthis awareness and this willingness.
And.
(31:01):
Yeah.
And I, I can so.
So in this moment, words Are.
My writing is, is my outletfor this.
I mean, I still cook and Istill, yeah, you know, dabble in
the garden and things like that.
But, but that is, this is really.
And it's.
(31:21):
And I'm not saying that I'm.
I'm great at what I write oranything like that, but it just,
it just feels right.
I. I think that's theimportant thing.
It definitely feels right.
You're.
Something that you said therethat really I was just like, oh my
God, let's just do a wholeepisode on this.
(31:44):
Was that, you know, you'regetting to know your.
Yourself through thesedifferent, through these different
artistic endeavors that you'redoing, these creative endeavors.
I'll use both words.
It doesn't matter.
Yeah, we're going to use,we're using both words interchangeably
here.
We're getting paid by the wordhere, folks.
That's what it is.
That's right.
(32:04):
That's right.
Sue less if you don't like it.
But you're introducingyourself and you're seeing yourself
in different fat.
It's kind of like the wordcollage comes to me.
I have tried collage one timeand I was cutting up some comic books,
(32:25):
which.
My comic book dealer, that'sthe best way I can call him because
he feels sometimes like a drugdealer, but now he's my dealer.
He looked at me, he was like,oh my God, what are you doing?
You're cutting this up?
And I was like, no, this is.
There's a certain way in acertain pattern for this and it made.
And I have that picture thereright there.
(32:45):
But I know it's way in the background.
I'll.
I'll send you a picture of it.
But it's, it's the only timeI've done collage and I was amazed
with what I could do with it.
And when you were saying that,you know, you're getting to know
yourself through thesedifferent facets, it just made me
(33:06):
think of collage and it mademe think of, you know, I'm getting
to know myself through,through music, through writing, through
painting.
I paint like a four year oldon crack.
I'm good with that.
That's okay.
Part of me is a four year oldon crack.
I'm happy with that.
You get to see these differentfacets of yourself.
And when you.
(33:26):
Because I'm of a certain age,you know, I'm seeing myself in the
different changes and thedifferent growth that I'm seeing.
That.
That it's like, wow, there'ssome pretty crazy stuff about Me,
but there's some pretty reallyawesome stuff about me as well.
And when I'm practicing thesedifferent arts and I'm seeing myself
(33:46):
through that, then I'm gettingto know myself better and I'm feeling
better about myself.
For me, that's why I create,because I want to find out what's
next.
What am I going to get in?
What are, you know, am I goingto be the crazy old uncle?
Uncle kind of there already.
But, you know, how crazy of acrazy old uncle can I be?
I'm excited to see what that'sgoing to be like, so.
(34:08):
Well, it is.
I.
And to your point, it.
It is.
Embracing our creative selvesis a. I feel like it's so life affirming
because there is a. I trulybelieve that there are.
(34:35):
We are infinitely creative.
Right.
I.
It's.
It.
There is no expiration date on it.
There is, there's, you know,you don't.
It's not like a, you know, itdoesn't run out.
It's.
It.
It is.
It's always there.
And you know, you were talkingabout music and we were.
(34:57):
And I mean, I think about too.
I am much more aware of theways that I feed that creative side
of myself through, you know,listening to other people or what,
going to other exhibitions or.
Or, you know, ex.
Just being in contact withother people's creativity too is
(35:22):
so nourishing and, and justkind of can spark some new ideas.
So there's a real.
I just feel like there's such a.
It's.
For me, I find this practiceto be very grounding and also very
(35:43):
life affirming that there's,you know, and it keeps me excited
about.
Yeah.
What.
What is next?
What do I want to do next?
What is it?
What's, you know, and.
And the other thing, theother, you know, thing that I know
to be true is, you know, youdo the one thing that you're thinking
(36:04):
about trying out and doing andit kind of leads to something else.
And you don't.
And a lot of times you don'treally know what that something else
is.
Mm.
You kind of leave it up to theuniverse, you know.
Yeah.
And I think because.
Because we've been talking alot about kind of the emotional,
(36:29):
physical, you know, with thehands dancing.
I'm gonna.
From now on I'm gonna thinkhands dancing.
Whenever, you know, my.
My wife or my kids areknitting, I'm just, oh, your hands
are dancing.
So thank you for that.
No, I blame you for that nowbecause I'm like, I Knit.
Never thought of that until Istarted talking with you.
So.
But, you know, we're talkingabout the.
(36:50):
The.
The emotional and the physicalstuff, and then there's kind of the
spiritual aspect, I think, toit as well, where.
And we were touching just alittle bit on that.
And I'm a big believer in kindof this collective unconsciousness.
That's what I called it there.
(37:13):
There's just something about the.
The community of creatives andartists that are out there that,
you know, it's kind of one ofthe secret reasons why I do the show
is that way I can meet awesomepeople that I can go, man, I got
to get you down to Virginia.
Let's go and have a cup ofcoffee and talk art all night.
But, you know, there's justsomething that.
That feeds my soul, talkingwith other people.
(37:35):
And it's something you saidearlier about, you know, going to
these shows and feedingyourself with that creativity and
with that art, artistry.
Again, we're using both words.
Yay.
And there's just somethingabout that.
And so I just.
I wanted to let you know thatI caught.
That's what I caught out ofwhat you said.
(37:56):
Well, and I think especiallyfor so many people in this moment
that we live in, there is anability to program so much of your
life and to have, you know,you can.
You can listen to exactly whatyou want to listen to from your playlist,
(38:22):
your.
Whatever.
You can watch exactly what youwant to watch from your streaming.
You can, you know, you canfind the articles or, you know, books
or whatever that arecompletely in alignment with your
belief system.
And.
And so there are these waysthat we can.
(38:46):
And in my way of thinking,that can be very numbing and very
kind of dulling in terms of our.
Just our sensory, you know,that our.
Our world of sensory, youknow, how we receive just information
(39:09):
and.
And not just information, butjust vibration, too.
Right.
And so I.
One of the things I reallylove to do is I love seeing live
performances because, youknow, thinking even.
(39:31):
I mean, concerts, for example, it's.
That night is only going to be.
Even if it's the same set list.
Yeah.
But it still is going to beentirely unique in that moment.
That play that you go and seelive on stage is.
(39:51):
Even though they're saying thesame words because that's what they've
learned, it still is unique inthat moment.
And so I think that is a bigpart of the.
And not to say that I canlisten to a studio album and be fed
(40:12):
creatively, but there's theAdditional spark of when you are
able to experience somethinglive, that it's just gonna be that
way just in that one time andit'll be different the next night
or it'll even, you know, it'llbe different even more different
(40:34):
a week from now.
Kind of reminds me of thePeter Frampton Coming Alive album,
the live album on that.
So fantastic album.
I do have it, of course, youknow, because I love vinyl and.
But a lot of my, A lot of myvinyl is a jazz live, you know, live
(40:55):
sessions.
And unfortunately, most of myjazz heroes passed away before I
was even born.
So it's like, ah.
But I've kind of alwayswondered, okay, so we'll take Peter
Frampton Coming Live.
Was there a better show show aweek later, a month later that they
just didn't capture?
(41:16):
And if there was, man, I mean,that album is a fantastic album,
but if there was a bettershow, I missed out on it because
I'm only listening to oneversion of it.
And even though it's a livealbum, you're just listening to one
version of it.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, that's certainly, Ithink about these jam bands, right,
(41:40):
that, that build this following.
And yeah, because they areseeing a completely different show
each night and it's in.
And that is, you know, builtinto the premise of the.
And is the success of thosebands in so many ways.
(42:01):
And so there.
And I think that that is, thatis a, A real kind of fundamental
need that we have as humans.
And I, I don't.
(42:21):
I think I also want to becareful to differentiate between
kind of chasing kind ofcontinually new experiences, right?
Because I think that in someways is the algorithm, so to speak,
(42:41):
of social media scrolling, right?
And that's how they basicallyhave taken this kind of.
This, this humancharacteristic of loving kind of
new things, right?
And.
And used it against us.
So that is, that's the otherreason why I stay committed to a
(43:05):
creative process of some sort.
Because as I was saying, thereis this grounding that happens and
I am.
I get to be.
I get to be the author of myown life.
I get to be.
(43:27):
I get to be engaged withwhat's happening in a way that I'm
not mindlessly, you know,ingesting something that someone
else has figured out is, Isgoing to kind of trick my brain into
feeling that same kind ofgoodness of, of these kind of unique
(43:51):
experiences that we're talking about.
And I think there's somethingto the effect of, let's say you're
listening to a record, a JohnColtrane record.
And it's not a live one, it'sa studio one.
And every time you listen toit, you catch something new in it.
It's the same song, same notes.
(44:12):
Cat, just your attention is just.
Maybe you're doing the dishesor doing some gardening.
I can't garden.
I don't have a green thumb.
But let's just pretend in thetheater of the mind that, you know,
Tim's a good gardener.
What?
Tim is learning from Kristenhow to be a good gardener.
(44:33):
There we go.
I like that better.
And so.
And you're listening to it,and you're studying it.
And that's one of my faults, Ifind, sometimes, is that, you know,
I'll listen to it and I'llstudy it, and then sometimes I'll
forget, just sit back andenjoy it.
I am horrible to go see a livetheater with because I used to do
(44:57):
lighting design, so I know allthe tricks.
I know what they're doing.
I bring a notebook with me,and I write it down.
Oh, no.
And my wife is like, if youbring the notebook, I'm not coming
with you.
And I'm like, okay, but.
All right.
But this is why they're doing it.
And she's like, you cannottalk through the performance.
You have to sit here and watchit and enjoy it.
(45:18):
I'm like, oh, okay.
So I sit in my hands and do it.
But, yeah, I'm horrible to goto live theater with, so I don't
recommend it unless you takeme to a musical.
And I'm not a big fan ofmusicals, so I'll sit and shut up
and listen to that.
I thought you were gonna saythat you sing along.
Only to three musicals.
(45:40):
Jesus Christ Superstar.
Okay.
You have to sing along to that one.
Oh, my gosh, yeah.
Sweeney Todd, just because itis such a cool one.
And Assassins, you know.
You know, Sondheim is my guy,so Andrew Lloyd Webber, I guess,
(46:00):
is my guy, too.
But, yeah, those are the threethat I'll sit and sing along to.
I'll.
Even.
Now, here's the weird thing.
I can sit and listen to operaand love it and just be entertained
by it because it's in adifferent language, and I don't understand
necessarily what's going on.
So I'm watching what'shappening, you know, on the stage
there.
So I'm able to take myself outa little bit and enjoy it that way.
(46:24):
But, yeah, you give me aregular American musical, you know,
Oklahoma.
No.
And what got me into art, myinciting incident is Guys and Dolls.
In high school, I was afreshman, and they had me running
the.
The main curtain and the pinrail, so I'm flying in scenery.
(46:46):
And on the very last show, Iremember one of the lead actresses
came up to me.
She.
I had closed the curtain.
The show was done.
You know, the seniors were graduating.
They were on to bigger andbetter things.
She comes over to me.
She's like, this is your firstshow, isn't it?
I'm like, yep.
She planted the biggest kisson me.
(47:07):
And I've been in theater ever since.
Oh, my goodness.
I love that.
I love that story.
That's so good.
It's not profound.
It's just somebody slapping akiss on me because I was supposed
to be there at that time tomake it happen.
(47:29):
So.
But yeah, yeah.
No, I mean, a lot of these.
A lot of these reasons why ourlives take these twists and turns
are not necessarily these.
These big, you know, veryserious or.
Or as you said, profound kindsof things, right?
(47:49):
It's.
It's.
It can be.
It can be a kiss at the end ofthe show.
I mean, it can be, you know,the art teacher who has kind of a.
The funkiest haircut in theschool and is.
And talks about drawing yourhand in a way that doesn't just make
(48:10):
your eyes glaze over.
Right.
And.
But I do.
I think that there's.
I love what you were sayingabout the.
The beauty in revisitingpieces of art and whether music and
I think about books that I'vereread over time.
(48:32):
Right.
And just that, again, that.
That conversation,essentially, that's happening, that
communication, right.
That you were talking aboutwith a.
A piece of art.
And I mean, I'm using art inthe big.
All the mediums that, youknow, it.
(48:54):
It.
I think about certainpaintings that I. I visit when, you
know, that I just love seeing,you know, time and time again and
the ability.
I mean, that is such a.
One of the wonderful thingsabout creative expression is that
(49:17):
at different moments, it cansay different things to us.
Right.
We can notice different thingsdepending on where.
What.
Where we are at in our livesor where.
Where we've just, you know, arecent experience or just even some,
you know, some miles down the road.
(49:37):
So there's.
And I think that there's also too.
I love kind of bringing thatback to a personal creative practice
that I think that it's worth,as I think about doing, you know,
let's just say in this moment, writing.
(49:59):
Sure.
I have to be willing to kindof kill my best idea, so to speak,
right.
A Charlie Mungerism.
And sometimes there'ssomething I also like.
What's a great idea that youhad that maybe didn't.
(50:19):
Or maybe it wasn't a great idea?
What was an idea that you hadthat didn't necessarily get fully
developed or one that did getfully developed?
And what would it be like torevisit it to, too?
You know, I think thatthere's, again, you know, the beauty
of all of this that we'retalking about is that not just the
(50:44):
hands dancing, but there isthis dance of ideas and how you.
And concepts and images maybe,and sounds that.
That you can.
Yes, there's.
As I was saying, I think thatthere's an infinite well of creativity
(51:06):
that we can.
Whether it's our collective well.
Or however we choose to see that.
But there is that piece.
But, yeah, it's.
It's also.
You can revisit things, too.
Like, there's just thiswonderful elasticity that we can
explore when we are in ourcreative selves.
(51:34):
Yeah.
Amen.
Amen to that.
And just listening to yourtalk about this, it just.
In my head, I'm sitting herepointing at myself going, tim, listen
to this.
When this interview is done,listen to this again, especially,
you know, minute 52 and fourseconds where we're at here, however
it ends up, listen to it.
(51:54):
Because I have three novelsthat are partially completed, and
it's, you know, I haven'tabandoned them, but they're there
and they're sitting in theback of my head, and it's like, get
done with them.
Get done with them.
Get them out in the world.
They're really good.
And.
And hearing you, you know,getting into your writing.
(52:15):
And lately I've been doing alot more music and a lot less writing,
but now I'm like, yeah,writing was my first love.
And, you know, well, theaterwas my second because, you know,
I got a good smooch, but, youknow, it's reminding me, get back
into it.
Because that's.
That's kind of my sweet spot there.
That's where I belong.
(52:35):
That's where I felt way backwhen I was a kiddo.
That's where I belonged.
So you've inspired me just inthis conversation to go ahead and
do that.
So, yeah, three novels.
Got to the end of the year todo it.
So we're recording here in.
In.
In at the end of August.
So I've got four months to dothree novels.
(52:58):
I'm seeing it for you.
I definitely see it for you.
Well, and I also.
What I will.
I mean, And I'm going to saythis for myself, really, and share
it with you is there are.
It's so funny because Imentioned that that just kind of
(53:21):
that.
That, you know, that feelingthat I felt in my brain when I first,
you know, recognized thisthing of.
Of art and really getting intothat creative space of my brain and
how good it felt.
And I feel like there is thisstruggle that I can have and especially
(53:44):
as kind of life'sresponsibilities, right.
Started getting.
Feeling more, you know, heavyor more that there were.
The consequences were bigger.
Right.
Or just, you know, so life gotmore serious.
And.
And I. I think that there isthis part of me that is.
(54:11):
I have to really give myselfpermission to.
To say it's okay to.
To do this thing that you feelso alive doing.
And it doesn't, you know, youdon't know what's happening to it.
You don't know where it's going.
(54:32):
It doesn't.
It's, you know, it's.
It's not going to pay the bills.
It's not, you know, getting.
It's not going to, you know,get the laundry done or whatever
other mundane thing.
Right.
That can get in the way.
And I mean, perhaps it'sprocrastination, pure and simple,
(54:54):
but there is almost also, Ithink, more than.
Yeah, there's almost thisinner struggle that I have to have
around being a responsiblehuman is somehow in opposition with
the creative being that I am.
(55:16):
And that is.
And that's a.
That's actually just not true.
And so I need to really bereminding myself that there's.
That those are.
They are.
They are compatible, and those are.
(55:37):
They.
They actually make great neighbors.
And in fact, sometimes can be,you know, significant others with
each other, you know, so.
Yeah, just reminding myself tokind of get out of my own zone of
judgment or whatnot.
(56:01):
Well, you were sayingsomething about an hour ago, and
I love that this is, you know, it's.
It's like I looked at thetime, I'm like, oh, we've been going
for a while, which is great.
But something that you hadsaid very early on when you had graduated
college and you were feelingselfish about, you know, doing your
(56:24):
art, and it really impacted you.
And then to today, you know,here In August of 2025, you know,
you're a parent, I'm a parent,and we have these responsibilities,
and I think sometimes we.
(56:44):
I'll say it for me.
I'm not going to say it foryou, but I'll say it for me.
Sometimes I take theseresponsibilities and use it as my,
I say it's responsibility, butit's procrastination is really behind
it.
Because when you saidprocrastination, I'm like, oh, I
(57:04):
raised my hand on that one.
I know, yeah.
But I think sometimes it masksitself as well.
I have all these responsibilities.
But then it challenges us touse that little bit of time that
we have.
Maybe it's 15 minutes, maybeit's an hour for me.
I do a lot of recordingsSunday mornings when everybody's
(57:26):
asleep for about an hour or two.
But I maximize that time.
I really, I set up that timeevery week and I maximize, optimize
that time so that way I canget the most out of that one or two
hours.
And you know, kind of settingthat limitation forces me to find
(57:48):
a creative solution for thatbecause I want that dopamine hit
of, hey, I created something.
You know, there's 8 billionpeople on the planet.
How many have four books of poetry?
How many have.
How many paint like a fouryear old on crack?
You know, not too many, nottoo many that will admit to it.
But you know, there's not thatmany people that, that do that.
(58:12):
There's not that many peoplethat have access to this community
of, of artists and creativesand inspiration seekers.
Oh, I even fit in the wordinspiration into that now.
Yes.
You know, we're a consumer culture.
One of my taglines is createmore than you consume.
Yes.
Because you never know whatyou're going to create.
(58:33):
You never know what's going topop out.
One question that I did havefor you though, it was that you were
talking about your process andwhen you're doing a different medium,
a different style, is thatcreative process, generally speaking,
(58:56):
the same?
Obviously it can't be the sameexact, you know, thing because, you
know, playing a musicalinstrument versus cooking versus
gardening versus writing isusing different skills.
But the overall creativeprocess, is that the same or do you
tailor it to each differentpractice that you do?
(59:16):
I would say overwhelmingly,my, my creative process is very much
about is.
Has some distinct similaritiesand it is, it is when I can get out
(59:37):
of my head.
Right.
So I am just immersing myselfin whatever the medium is.
And part of that getting outof my head is getting out of thinking
about, you know, am I tryingto do something for someone else,
sir, or someone else's taste,so to speak.
(01:00:00):
Right.
So yeah, it's a big part of itis that.
And the other, the other partthat has become more and more important
and allows me to have, allowsme to have more Fun with it and also
just allows me to create moreis to really not get hung up on the
(01:00:27):
final product.
Right, sure.
So allowing for that, thatprocess of discovery and so, you
know, remaining curious andthen also not, not feeling like it
has to, I guess accepting thatit could be a stinker, you know,
(01:00:52):
letting that, that, you know,allowing for there to be a dud every,
you know, as, as often thereas there is a dud and just in the
end to keep going.
And you can always revisit itlater on.
Exactly.
You know, so you're neverrunning out of ideas or inspiration.
(01:01:13):
We're not waiting for theinspiration theory.
We're just going, okay, Idon't have anything right now.
Oh, that was really horrible.
Let's try that again.
Well, I think that's why Icome back to, you know, it's in.
And I love what you weresaying about scheduling a time for
your recording and, andstaying faithful to that.
(01:01:36):
Because the, I think one ofthe biggest myth is myths is this
idea that, you know, there'sthis wonderful creative muse that's,
you know, out there and isgonna strike and it's just gonna
be like, wow, you know, theheavens part or the veil gets lifted
(01:01:57):
and you just.
Everything is, comes together.
It's.
I think that's why, you know,coming back to cooking ends up being
this really fun creative endeavor.
And it's, it's such low stakesbecause, you know, if it doesn't
turn out well, you just, well,okay, maybe I have a hard boiled
(01:02:21):
egg or some cereal orsomething and if, you know, and you
also, so, I mean, you gottaeat so you, you kind of get an opportunity
to, to keep doing it.
Right?
I mean it's, it's built in, soit is this.
And you also don't have thiskind of endless amount of time to
(01:02:41):
do it in too.
Right.
I mean, you, you, you gotta,you gotta get it ready for, you know,
before it's time for the next meal.
So I think that's one of thereasons why I always come back to
cooking is this thing, thisgreat low stakes way to, to really
just play and, and in your.
(01:03:04):
When you're feeling your leastcreative or your least, you know,
inspired, that can be a placeto start or at least a place to land.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Oh, I'm just thinking of allthe meals I made in college.
Ramen noodles.
(01:03:25):
Now that's creativity.
When you can make ramennoodles taste wonderful, so.
Exactly, exactly.
I know.
Well, and I'm guessing thatpretty soon, speaking of my family
is going to Be looking at mesaying it's time for you to get creative
in the kitchen.
Absolutely.
That's a perfect spot for usto end on.
(01:03:47):
So Krista, I definitely wantto thank you for joining me here
tonight.
Your, your, your insights andeverything that we have talked about
here as has inspired me.
I know it's going to inspireour listeners out there.
So thank you very much.
Is there anything coming up in2025 by the end of the year?
(01:04:09):
Because we already know I'mwriting, you know, I'm finishing
up a few novels here.
So I, how about you?
What, what are we lookingforward to for the rest of 2025?
Gosh, the rest of 2025 isreally, is, is already pretty mapped
out and a lot of it is.
I have been having so much funhosting and leading, facilitating
(01:04:33):
these discovering yourspiritual autobiography workshops
where we really dive intostorytelling and both, you know,
the participants and myself.
So it's a great way to be incommunity and be creating together.
So I, I always look forward tomy groups and I do retreats and I
(01:04:55):
do also a longer eight weektype of meeting.
So that's really fun.
And I've got, I've, I'm goingto be doing some more of those and
then I've, I have a newworkshop that I'm playing around
with.
So it's, it is called theCircle of Connection and it's about
(01:05:16):
curiosity, creativity and community.
So again these themes that aresuper important to me and, and things
that came up tonight and soit's, I love at this moment that
is kind of how I'm playingwith creating and getting it out
(01:05:37):
in the world and then gettingboth kind of immediate feedback in
the actual realm of sitting inthe room with folks and, and then
also, you know, getting sometime to digest as after, you know,
after a workshop is done.
So it's.
I am, yeah.
(01:05:59):
So I'm having a lot of funwith that right now.
So I'm, I'm, I'm lookingforward to finishing out the year
strong with just connectingwith as many people around these
themes of curiosity,creativity and community.
Perfect.
Well, we're going to make surethat we have the show notes in there
for everybody.
(01:06:20):
So definitely this is one ofthe episodes.
Go through the show notes andyou know, I might have a little surprise
in there for you.
Like you know, my recipe for.
Oh my God, ramen noodles.
So.
And you know, maybe we canget, you know, you to give us a little
recipe there too.
Just, just as a bonus for folks.
I'm just saying.
(01:06:41):
Oh My gosh.
Yes, I have such.
Oh, I, I already know what Iwant to share.
So there you go.
Done and done.
So you have to read the shownotes in order to find out because
we're not going to say a wordabout it.
We're done.
Nope, nope.
My lips are sealed.
There you go.
I'm not telling anybody.
So.
But anyhow, it's been such a pleasure.
Thank you so much.
(01:07:01):
I feel like I've talked with akindred spirit here and so just thank
you so much for this.
Oh, thank you, Jim.
This has just been a real joyand yes, it's it.
I love all the twists andturns we took, so thank you.
You got it.
(01:07:26):
Alright, that's the show folks.
Thank you so much to KristenSwan with sitting down and talking
with me about why she creates art.
And remember she has thespaghetti on the wall journal that
can help you out with your process.
You know, getting it down.
(01:07:47):
Sometimes when we write thisstuff down, you know, take that pen
to paper and get that tactile feeling.
It's going to help you out andit's going to give you a good base
for where your creativityneeds to go.
So definitely check out theshow notes for that.
Check out Kristen Swan and herwebsite and get the journal.
(01:08:08):
Like I said, I'm buying ittoday so I can definitely report
back to you and tell you howit went for me.
Just a few things before Iclose out here.
I do want to remind you thatyou can reach out to me timothyreateartpodcast.com
if you want to be in these conversations.
Definitely shoot me a line.
(01:08:29):
Let me know.
In the show notes I have alist of all the topics I will be
covering and you know, ifwe've already covered it, that's
okay because.
Because we need yourperspective on these topics.
So definitely reach out to me.
Speaking about reaching out, Ido want to let you know I have another
podcast.
It's called Find a Podcast about.
(01:08:50):
You can find it atfindapodcast About XYZ and that's
where I help you find yournext binge worthy podcast and outsmart
the algorithm.
I can't wait for you to pop onover there and see what podcast I
am reviewing.
And I started up my ownbusiness this year.
It's called TKB Podcast Studioand that's where I help my clients.
(01:09:15):
And yes, I'm using the S themultiple there because I have multiple
clients now but that's where Ihelp my clients lead to the noise
through quiet professionalismand I show them how to create a podcast,
just like you're listening toright now.
Check it out.
TKBpodcaststudio.com and letme see what I can do for you.
(01:09:37):
Okay, now it's up to you.
This is the end of the show.
I want you to go out there andtame that inner critic.
I think you got a lot of ideashow to do that.
Create more than you consume.
Go out there, make some artfor somebody you love.
Yourself.
I'll talk to you next time.