September 4, 2025 • 13 mins
Do you feel like your nest is empty… but your kids still need you just as much?
You’re not alone — this “in-between” stage is one of the most emotionally confusing seasons of midlife.
In this episode, you’ll discover:
- Why the empty nest often feels more like a “messy middle” than a clean break.
- The Four D’s every parent needs to recognize — and how they shape your response.
- Practical coping skills to help you update your role, set boundaries, and anchor yourself in your own life.
Take 12 minutes to learn how to navigate the messy middle of parenting — you’re worth it.
****
About the Host:
MJ Murray Vachon LCSW is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with more than 48,000 hours of therapy sessions and 31 years of experience teaching her Mental Wellness curriculum, Inner Challenge. Four years ago she overcame her fear of technology to create a podcast that integrated her vast clinical experience and practical wisdom of cultivating mental wellness using the latest information from neuroscience. MJ was Social Worker of the Year in 2011 for Region 2/IN.
Creating Midlife Calm is a podcast designed to guide you through the challenges of midlife, tackling issues like anxiety, low self-esteem, feeling unworthy, procrastination, and isolation, while offering strategies for improving relationships, family support, emotional wellbeing, mental wellness, and parenting, with a focus on mindfulness, stress management, coping skills, and personal growth to stop rumination, overthinking, and increase confidence through self-care, emotional healing, and mental health support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
MJ Murray Vachon LCSW (00:00):
In this episode, you'll discover how to
navigate the messy middle whenyour nest is empty, but your
kids still need you.
Welcome to Creating MidlifeCalm, the podcast where you and
I tackle stress and anxiety inmidlife so you can stop feeling
like crap, feel more present athome, and thrive at work.
I'm MJ Murray Vachon a LicensedClinical Social Worker with over
(00:24):
50,000 hours of therapy sessionsand 32 years of teaching
practical science-backed mentalwellness.
Welcome to the podcast.
On Monday's episode, we exploredsavoring the empty nest, letting
it be, rather than forcingyourself to let go before you're
ready.
We talked about how smallmoments of savoring can hold
(00:46):
both the bitter and the sweet ofyour parenting journey.
If you joined me, then you mayremember your Inner Challenge to
savor your nest in one smallway.
Maybe that meant sitting withyour morning coffee and allowing
feelings to come up withoutjudgment or sitting quietly in
your child's room holding spacefor the memories.
(01:08):
This simple act of savoring canslow down and soften the urge to
rush through this transition,which often can be full of lots
of different emotions, One of myclients who struggles with a
strong Inner critic, completedthe journal prompt.
My favorite part of raising mykids was she remembered the
(01:29):
birthday parties she createdwith so much love and
creativity.
Instead of reflecting on whatshe did wrong, she savored what
she did.
Right.
As you savor, your children arestepping into young adulthood,
one of the most complicated andangst filled periods of life.
That means your savoring isoften interrupted by text or
(01:50):
calls filled with overwhelm,confusion, or requests for help.
While you're adjusting to theempty nest, they're adjusting to
a new nest, one that feelsunfamiliar and is full of new
challenges.
And who do they often turn to?
U, this in between stage ofparenting can feel like
(02:10):
emotional whiplash.
Your kids may be livingelsewhere, but you are still
getting texts, asking foradvice, help with laundry, how
to fill out insurance forms, andsometimes crisis calls about
whether they should take theirroommate to the er.
After too much drinking, you'readjusting to more space and
freedom, but you're stillemotionally tethered and
(02:33):
boundaries blur.
You're no longer in charge, butyou're still deeply connected.
One of my favorite stories fromthis stage came from a friend
whose college freshman textedher every weekend at midnight.
Her daughter hated the partyscene, but it was all her new
dorm friends wanted to do.
She'd text to her Mom, I hatethis.
(02:55):
What do I do?
Of course, the mom replied, goback to your dorm and go to
sleep.
The daughter replied, I can't.
I'm in college now.
The mom replied, then why areyou texting me?
Her daughter replied because Iam so unhappy in nearly four
decades as a therapist, i'vewatched a major shift.
(03:17):
Today's young adults oftenmaintain a much deeper emotional
connection with their parents.
That closeness can be wonderful,but it takes a wise, intentional
parent to navigate it well,especially during the messy
middle.
So if you are struggling withthis, try this reflection.
How much did you rely on yourparents for emotional support
(03:40):
once you left home?
I've noticed that the less anempty nester relied on their own
parents, the more disorientingthis stage can feel.
There's two big reasons forthat.
The clean break you werepromised, or perhaps the one you
experienced yourself doesn'tmatch your reality now.
And the second is many oftoday's young adults leave home
(04:03):
with less real worldindependence, Making their
learning.
Much deeper layer On top ofthat, the unspoken expectations
and the phone in their pocket,that allows for constant
connection and you've got theperfect recipe for stress and
anxiety.
That expectation can come fromyour child, from yourself, or
(04:25):
from others who expect you toalways be on call.
If there was ever a real lifeexample, a Brene Brown's messy
middle.
This stage of parenting is itYou're savoring your empty nest
while one or more of your flockis still squawking.
So let's look at some copingskills that can help keep your
(04:47):
own nest peaceful while givingyour child the space to build
theirs coping skill number one.
Update your role as a parentshift from hands-on manager to
mentor or consultant.
You have probably alreadystarted to do this in the high
school years, but once a childleaves home, you need to up this
(05:09):
skill to a whole new level.
That means staying connectedwithout stepping back into
full-time parenting.
Here's a practical tip.
Let your kids be the ones tocall you instead of you checking
in on them daily.
Not forever, but especially inthose first few months, you
might be missing them or feelinganxious after a late night text,
(05:32):
but your role is to hold yourown anxiety rather than seeking
reassurance from them.
I did this with both of mychildren and it was much harder
than I expected.
I had to consciously disciplinemyself to not call or even send
a quick picture of the dog inthose early months.
They had so much to figure out,and my reaching out would've
(05:54):
been more about soothing my ownfeelings than helping them grow.
One of the beautiful thingsabout working with so many
college age students is that Ihave seen firsthand how a call
from home, even a loving one,could make them suddenly
homesick and disrupt theiradjustment.
Which leads to coping skillNumber two, set clear boundaries
(06:17):
first for yourself.
Whether this is your first childin college or your most
demanding one, boundaries areessential.
Remember, in adolescence, wewant our kids to learn to
navigate the four Ds distressdisappointment.
Danger and discomfort.
When your child calls homeupset, pause and ask yourself,
(06:41):
which d is this?
Remember, your role is not toremove every discomfort.
Your role is also to not allowthem to add a 50, and that's
dumping boundaries might includeno calls during work hours no
late night texts unless it'struly dangerous.
(07:03):
After a few weekends of thoselate night texts, my friend
finally had a directconversation with her child.
She said to her, no more callsin the middle of the night.
You're living on college time.
I'm on midlife time.
It's worth remembering that thefour D's don't include dumping.
Your child is used to contactingyou on their timeline when they
(07:26):
lived at home, but part of yourjob now is to help them update
that rhythm.
When they do call, ask them whatthey need from you.
Do you need support?
My advice, as you probably know,most of the time they want
support, which doesn't require45 minutes of reassurance.
Because the learning curve aftera child leaves home is so steep.
(07:50):
There tends to be a lot ofavoidance, and that phone is the
number one tool that helps themdo it.
So give them support, but don'tlet them go on and on wasting
their valuable time talkingabout their disappointment,
their discomfort, or theirdistress.
You can help normalize theirexperience.
(08:12):
Yes, it is hard, but you canfigure it out.
This approach encourages them toincrease their ability to hold
discomfort, disappointment anddistress, a crucial skill for
adulthood, An interesting factabout this stage is they will
often call.
When they're in distress, butnot call when they're in danger.
(08:36):
And that's an importantconversation to have with them,
that you are there for them whenthey are in danger.
I remember a client of mine whohad gone through sorority rush,
she was inappropriately hazed.
I asked her if she had toldanyone.
She looked at me and said, no, Iguess I'm telling you now.
(08:56):
Eventually, I said, why wouldn'tyou have reached out to your
parents because this hazing putyou in danger?
And she said, I didn't wannaworry them.
that moment perfectlyencapsulates this age and stage.
I helped her understand what todo when she was in danger, and I
encourage you as a parent to dothat with your children before
(09:20):
they leave home.
Which leads me to coping skillnumber three, the importance of
staying anchored in your ownlife.
Watching your child navigate,leaving home from a distance
isn't always easy.
You often hear more about thestruggles than the successes,
which can leave you feelingdistressed and untethered.
(09:41):
Remember, this is supposed to behard.
They're not doing anythingwrong.
It's a huge learning curve.
One of the best ways to survivethe messy middle is to stay in
your lane.
What do I mean when I say that?
If you find yourself constantlythinking about your child
sending weekly care packages ordropping by in person, you may
(10:05):
be overstepping.
Instead, do your own emotionalwork by processing what you're
feeling.
Remember name.
Tame and aim.
If you need a refresher onemotional regulation, check out
episode six and seven.
Using this approach will oftenhelp you calm down and shift to
(10:25):
a clearer mental state, onewhere you remind yourself that
this is your child's life.
Not yours.
Doing this often will bring youback to the present moment where
you can focus on your ownanchors, hobbies, friendships,
projects, or long postponeddreams.
This shift rebalances yourenergy toward building your own
(10:48):
life where parenting is not socentral, which of course.
Leads us to one of thefoundational experiences of the
empty nest, coming to terms withwhat it means to be needed less.
For some of you, this is arelief and not much of a
struggle, but for others.
It can sting to feel lessneeded.
(11:11):
Parenting often shapes yoursense of purpose, so stepping
back is rarely simple.
By naming the loss and recallingyour own launch into adulthood,
you can begin to turn down theneed to be needed.
Hold on to the best parts ofyour parents' example, and
consciously avoid repeating whatyou didn't appreciate.
(11:33):
Remember how thrilling it feltto step into more independence
and authority in your own life.
Today's close parent-childrelationships can
unintentionally chip away atthat sense of ownership by being
too involved.
Over the years, I've heard manycollege students quietly wonder
in my office how to tell theirmoms they want to decorate their
(11:57):
rooms or apartments themself.
While it can ache for a parentto step aside and let their
child do the target run on theirown, it's deeply empowering for
young adults to make thosechoices, whether on their own or
with their roommates in thisepisode.
You've discovered how tonavigate the in-between stage of
(12:18):
the empty nest, the messymiddle.
When you're savoring more space,but still feeling the pull of
your kids' needs.
We've explored why this stagecould feel so confusing and
covered.
Four coping skills to help youredefine your role, set
boundaries, and anchor yourselfin your own life.
(12:39):
Remember, this is a process.
It isn't done in a day.
It isn't done in a week.
It's actually done over a coupleof years.
Thanks for listening, and I'llbe back on Monday with more
creating midlife calm.
In this episode, you'll discover how to
navigate the messy middle whenyour nest is empty, but your
kids still need you.
Welcome to Creating MidlifeCalm, the podcast where you and
I tackle stress and anxiety inmidlife so you can stop feeling
like crap, feel more present athome, and thrive at work.
I'm MJ Murray Vachon a LicensedClinical Social Worker with over
(00:24):
50,000 hours of therapy sessionsand 32 years of teaching
practical science-backed mentalwellness.
Welcome to the podcast.
On Monday's episode, we exploredsavoring the empty nest, letting
it be, rather than forcingyourself to let go before you're
ready.
We talked about how smallmoments of savoring can hold
(00:46):
both the bitter and the sweet ofyour parenting journey.
If you joined me, then you mayremember your Inner Challenge to
savor your nest in one smallway.
Maybe that meant sitting withyour morning coffee and allowing
feelings to come up withoutjudgment or sitting quietly in
your child's room holding spacefor the memories.
(01:08):
This simple act of savoring canslow down and soften the urge to
rush through this transition,which often can be full of lots
of different emotions, One of myclients who struggles with a
strong Inner critic, completedthe journal prompt.
My favorite part of raising mykids was she remembered the
(01:29):
birthday parties she createdwith so much love and
creativity.
Instead of reflecting on whatshe did wrong, she savored what
she did.
Right.
As you savor, your children arestepping into young adulthood,
one of the most complicated andangst filled periods of life.
That means your savoring isoften interrupted by text or
(01:50):
calls filled with overwhelm,confusion, or requests for help.
While you're adjusting to theempty nest, they're adjusting to
a new nest, one that feelsunfamiliar and is full of new
challenges.
And who do they often turn to?
U, this in between stage ofparenting can feel like
(02:10):
emotional whiplash.
Your kids may be livingelsewhere, but you are still
getting texts, asking foradvice, help with laundry, how
to fill out insurance forms, andsometimes crisis calls about
whether they should take theirroommate to the er.
After too much drinking, you'readjusting to more space and
freedom, but you're stillemotionally tethered and
(02:33):
boundaries blur.
You're no longer in charge, butyou're still deeply connected.
One of my favorite stories fromthis stage came from a friend
whose college freshman textedher every weekend at midnight.
Her daughter hated the partyscene, but it was all her new
dorm friends wanted to do.
She'd text to her Mom, I hatethis.
(02:55):
What do I do?
Of course, the mom replied, goback to your dorm and go to
sleep.
The daughter replied, I can't.
I'm in college now.
The mom replied, then why areyou texting me?
Her daughter replied because Iam so unhappy in nearly four
decades as a therapist, i'vewatched a major shift.
(03:17):
Today's young adults oftenmaintain a much deeper emotional
connection with their parents.
That closeness can be wonderful,but it takes a wise, intentional
parent to navigate it well,especially during the messy
middle.
So if you are struggling withthis, try this reflection.
How much did you rely on yourparents for emotional support
(03:40):
once you left home?
I've noticed that the less anempty nester relied on their own
parents, the more disorientingthis stage can feel.
There's two big reasons forthat.
The clean break you werepromised, or perhaps the one you
experienced yourself doesn'tmatch your reality now.
And the second is many oftoday's young adults leave home
(04:03):
with less real worldindependence, Making their
learning.
Much deeper layer On top ofthat, the unspoken expectations
and the phone in their pocket,that allows for constant
connection and you've got theperfect recipe for stress and
anxiety.
That expectation can come fromyour child, from yourself, or
(04:25):
from others who expect you toalways be on call.
If there was ever a real lifeexample, a Brene Brown's messy
middle.
This stage of parenting is itYou're savoring your empty nest
while one or more of your flockis still squawking.
So let's look at some copingskills that can help keep your
(04:47):
own nest peaceful while givingyour child the space to build
theirs coping skill number one.
Update your role as a parentshift from hands-on manager to
mentor or consultant.
You have probably alreadystarted to do this in the high
school years, but once a childleaves home, you need to up this
(05:09):
skill to a whole new level.
That means staying connectedwithout stepping back into
full-time parenting.
Here's a practical tip.
Let your kids be the ones tocall you instead of you checking
in on them daily.
Not forever, but especially inthose first few months, you
might be missing them or feelinganxious after a late night text,
(05:32):
but your role is to hold yourown anxiety rather than seeking
reassurance from them.
I did this with both of mychildren and it was much harder
than I expected.
I had to consciously disciplinemyself to not call or even send
a quick picture of the dog inthose early months.
They had so much to figure out,and my reaching out would've
(05:54):
been more about soothing my ownfeelings than helping them grow.
One of the beautiful thingsabout working with so many
college age students is that Ihave seen firsthand how a call
from home, even a loving one,could make them suddenly
homesick and disrupt theiradjustment.
Which leads to coping skillNumber two, set clear boundaries
(06:17):
first for yourself.
Whether this is your first childin college or your most
demanding one, boundaries areessential.
Remember, in adolescence, wewant our kids to learn to
navigate the four Ds distressdisappointment.
Danger and discomfort.
When your child calls homeupset, pause and ask yourself,
(06:41):
which d is this?
Remember, your role is not toremove every discomfort.
Your role is also to not allowthem to add a 50, and that's
dumping boundaries might includeno calls during work hours no
late night texts unless it'struly dangerous.
(07:03):
After a few weekends of thoselate night texts, my friend
finally had a directconversation with her child.
She said to her, no more callsin the middle of the night.
You're living on college time.
I'm on midlife time.
It's worth remembering that thefour D's don't include dumping.
Your child is used to contactingyou on their timeline when they
(07:26):
lived at home, but part of yourjob now is to help them update
that rhythm.
When they do call, ask them whatthey need from you.
Do you need support?
My advice, as you probably know,most of the time they want
support, which doesn't require45 minutes of reassurance.
Because the learning curve aftera child leaves home is so steep.
(07:50):
There tends to be a lot ofavoidance, and that phone is the
number one tool that helps themdo it.
So give them support, but don'tlet them go on and on wasting
their valuable time talkingabout their disappointment,
their discomfort, or theirdistress.
You can help normalize theirexperience.
(08:12):
Yes, it is hard, but you canfigure it out.
This approach encourages them toincrease their ability to hold
discomfort, disappointment anddistress, a crucial skill for
adulthood, An interesting factabout this stage is they will
often call.
When they're in distress, butnot call when they're in danger.
(08:36):
And that's an importantconversation to have with them,
that you are there for them whenthey are in danger.
I remember a client of mine whohad gone through sorority rush,
she was inappropriately hazed.
I asked her if she had toldanyone.
She looked at me and said, no, Iguess I'm telling you now.
(08:56):
Eventually, I said, why wouldn'tyou have reached out to your
parents because this hazing putyou in danger?
And she said, I didn't wannaworry them.
that moment perfectlyencapsulates this age and stage.
I helped her understand what todo when she was in danger, and I
encourage you as a parent to dothat with your children before
(09:20):
they leave home.
Which leads me to coping skillnumber three, the importance of
staying anchored in your ownlife.
Watching your child navigate,leaving home from a distance
isn't always easy.
You often hear more about thestruggles than the successes,
which can leave you feelingdistressed and untethered.
(09:41):
Remember, this is supposed to behard.
They're not doing anythingwrong.
It's a huge learning curve.
One of the best ways to survivethe messy middle is to stay in
your lane.
What do I mean when I say that?
If you find yourself constantlythinking about your child
sending weekly care packages ordropping by in person, you may
(10:05):
be overstepping.
Instead, do your own emotionalwork by processing what you're
feeling.
Remember name.
Tame and aim.
If you need a refresher onemotional regulation, check out
episode six and seven.
Using this approach will oftenhelp you calm down and shift to
(10:25):
a clearer mental state, onewhere you remind yourself that
this is your child's life.
Not yours.
Doing this often will bring youback to the present moment where
you can focus on your ownanchors, hobbies, friendships,
projects, or long postponeddreams.
This shift rebalances yourenergy toward building your own
(10:48):
life where parenting is not socentral, which of course.
Leads us to one of thefoundational experiences of the
empty nest, coming to terms withwhat it means to be needed less.
For some of you, this is arelief and not much of a
struggle, but for others.
It can sting to feel lessneeded.
(11:11):
Parenting often shapes yoursense of purpose, so stepping
back is rarely simple.
By naming the loss and recallingyour own launch into adulthood,
you can begin to turn down theneed to be needed.
Hold on to the best parts ofyour parents' example, and
consciously avoid repeating whatyou didn't appreciate.
(11:33):
Remember how thrilling it feltto step into more independence
and authority in your own life.
Today's close parent-childrelationships can
unintentionally chip away atthat sense of ownership by being
too involved.
Over the years, I've heard manycollege students quietly wonder
in my office how to tell theirmoms they want to decorate their
(11:57):
rooms or apartments themself.
While it can ache for a parentto step aside and let their
child do the target run on theirown, it's deeply empowering for
young adults to make thosechoices, whether on their own or
with their roommates in thisepisode.
You've discovered how tonavigate the in-between stage of
(12:18):
the empty nest, the messymiddle.
When you're savoring more space,but still feeling the pull of
your kids' needs.
We've explored why this stagecould feel so confusing and
covered.
Four coping skills to help youredefine your role, set
boundaries, and anchor yourselfin your own life.
(12:39):
Remember, this is a process.
It isn't done in a day.
It isn't done in a week.
It's actually done over a coupleof years.
Thanks for listening, and I'llbe back on Monday with more
creating midlife calm.
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