#56 - Adrian Tembel, Chief Executive Partner of Thomson Geer on: The Journey to Building one of the Largest Law Firms in Australia - Creating Synergy Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Synergy IQ (00:01):
Welcome to Creating synergy where we explore what it
takes to transform. We arepowered by Synergy IQ. Our
mission is to help leaderscreate world class businesses
where people are safe, valued,inspired and fulfilled. We can
only do this with our amazingcommunity. So thank you for
listening.

Daniel Franco (00:20):
I then synergises and welcome back to another
episode of The creating synergypodcast. My name is Daniel
Franco and today we have a manon the show who is touted as one
of the most network human beingsin South Australia. Mr. Adrian
symbol, the chief executivepartner of one of the largest
law firms in Australia, Thompsongear. Adrian is a prominent

(00:43):
South Australian lawyer andbusinessman as an economics and
honors law graduate of theUniversity of Adelaide. He began
practicing corporate andtechnology Laura Thompson gear
in 1993, and partner of Thomsongear in 1997, and went on to
become the chief executivepartner in 2009 and held the
position ever since. Whenoperating as a full time lawyer,

(01:06):
Adrienne specialized in thecorporate and technology space
and had the opportunity to serveon some of the most amazing
pieces of work. One namely waswith one of the greatest drivers
of Formula One and center andhis merchandising team. Adrian's
focus is now on leading Thompsongear where as chief executive
partner he has grown theAdelaide headquartered Thompson

(01:27):
gear to a major Australian lawfirm with the annual revenue of
close to $200 million. At thetime of this podcast, Thompson
gear is ranked 10th largest lawfirm by partner 22nd in South
Australia's top privatecompanies and rows 32 places in
2019 2020 in Australia's top 500private company rankings and has

(01:50):
now got offices all aroundAustralia in Adelaide, Sydney,
Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth.
Adrian is an advisor to thepremier of South Australia
Stephen Marshall and in 2018, hewas appointed as Commissioner of
the South AustralianProductivity Commission, and
went on to become chair of thiscommission in July 2021. Further
to this, he has the time to beable to serve as director of the

(02:12):
Menzies Research Center as well.
In this episode, Adrian and Itouched on his journey from
being a full time lawyer tobecoming the chief executive
partner of Thompson gear. And asa very proud South Australian,
he provides his insights intohow we can build and make South
Australia better by focusing onbuilding a world class research

(02:34):
and development platform. I lovethe modesty coming from Adrian
in this episode, where hedescribes himself as insecure
and not very talented person.
But he was able to share with usthat through hard work and
persistence, it is possible toreally achieve great things. We
also deep dived into histhoughts around his journey and

(02:54):
how he ended up in the legalworld. How the impending
liquidation of the company ledhim to become the chief
executive partner, the strategyand mindset that turned around
the company's financialposition, his learnings and
experiences through the process.
He's thoughts on the role CEOsplay in the company's culture,
how he manages his time, hisrole as an advisor to Stephen

(03:18):
Marshall. And he provides someamazing advice for up and coming
CEOs. I know you're absolutelygoing to love this chat. And if
you'd like to learn more aboutsome of the other amazing
speakers and leaders that we'vehad on the creating synergy
podcast, then be sure to jump onour website at Synergy
iq.com.au. Or check us out atSpotify, or Apple podcasts or

(03:40):
any of your podcast outlets. Sowelcome back to the creating
synergy podcast. My name isDaniel Franco, your host and
today we have a very great manby the name of Adrian timbul.
Welcome to the show, Adrian. Oh,

Adrian Tembel (03:56):
pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

So I drew and I'm going to start off with if you
google your name, you google youstart typing in Adrian tambling.
Google, and it has offers a fewsuggestions right, it says
Adrian temple, and some of thesuggestions are Adrian timbul
house, Adrian Tembo net worth,Adrian, Adrian timber wife, and

(04:21):
Adrian timbul sheep farm. Canyou can you explain why people
want to know about your sheepfarm?

Well, I can't explain. I've only ever been
told about that once before itwas from my wife, because she
got quite upset when she sawAdrienne timbul wife again she
pressed in but it wasn't aphotograph of her professional.
There's a few of them with otherwomen. professional women of

(04:49):
taking a photo which she was abit upset about

is quite weird because I did click on

because everyone's benchmarking
everyone. Women So, but look, Idon't know why people take an
interest in those things. Butbut I guess they do. I think
they're a function of peopleclicking and searching, aren't
they?

Yeah, yeah. It's what searched most. So it was
under my belief. So yeah, peoplesearching your wife is I learned

an interesting lesson in Media Management. Not
that the media is interested inme. But Polly bought a home that
was quite prominent a few yearsago. Polly's my wife. Yeah. And
we were very, very keen to keepit out of the newspapers, for
obvious reasons, either

one of Gilberton.
Yes.

What happened was that we made a big mistake, we
actually retained a publicrelations firm to lobby the
advertiser, we knew they wantedto talk about it. Yeah. And we
worked really hard on trying toconvince the advertiser that it
wasn't newsworthy, and we wantto protect the privacy of our
family. Yeah. And of course, byworking hard to keep it private,

(05:57):
I think they went in theopposite direction. Yeah. And
wanted to know more. So it was alittle bit of a lesson, it would
have been publicized anyway. Butwe learned a lesson. The more
you try to keep things out ofthe spotlight, the more people
want to put it in.

It was like when you say to a kid, don't touch
that. And the first thing theydo. So yeah, no, it's a lovely
home. If anyone wants to searchit. But anyway, we won't go
there. So. So tell us a littlebit more. Why are people

(06:32):
searching Adrian? And tell us alittle bit about your journey?
Like where did you I don't

know if they're searching? I guess if I put your
name in Google, which I have.
There'd be a lot more hits?
Well, no answers. And there isfor me,

well, purely by our marketing, not by anyone
else. I think everyone else iswriting articles on yourself.
There is a famous Daniel Francoin in America actually. Is
there. Yeah. What was he famous?
Fashion Designer? Yeah, yeah.

So Is he handsome?

I believe. So I think he was on that project
runway. Right? So anyone withthat name? Typically.

We're here to talk about me. My name is
actually very unique, mysurname. And as far as I know,
still, it's the only temple inAustralia. And I've always taken
a bit of an interest in itsbackground. It's quite a
confusing background. But if youput my name in, it'll be the
only one. So I don't have famouspeople like yours.

Well, well, there you go. So you don't have an A
this might be strategically youdon't have a LinkedIn profile.

I am. I mean, this goes back to the early
question. I'm such an insecure,low confidence person that the
idea of doing any social mediais way beyond me. I see it as
narcissistic and an egotisticaland of course, it's not because
the whole world and so prettymuch except for me, but luckily,
I'm old enough to get away withit. So so I'll tell not only

(08:03):
because I think, why wouldanyone want to know anything
about well,

you type in Adrian timbul, on LinkedIn, and
there is no other that No,Adrian comes up. So it is a very
unique name just going

it's a funny name. It's, I've researched it.
So my parents are, I guessthey're, whether you call them
Soviet refugees, or post warSoviet displaced persons,
there's a bit of a debate aboutwhether you qualify as a refugee
or a displaced person, but they,their families were torn up by
the Second World War, and theyfound themselves down here in

(08:36):
Australia. So I grew up as achild of post war Soviet
refugees. And so you take a bitof an interest in your
background, but then sometimesyou don't, because you're trying
hard to integrate in and becomea young Australian. So so it's
only been, as I've gotten olderthat I've taken an interest in
my background, but the the nameis actually quite a common name

(08:58):
in Israel, to describe ahistorical hat that was used
during the development of Israelas a nation. So my name is got
all sorts of connectivity andbackground.

Yeah. Brilliant.
So you are CEO of Thomson.
Reuters. Yes. Tell us about yourjourney to there. So you know,
parents, refugees, as a childtrying to fit in

trying to fit in outsider growing up in a working
class neighborhood in thenorthwest of Adelaide in the
1970s you know, full ofmanufacturing jobs, but
manufacturing jobs that aredisappearing. So in that
neighborhood, the majority ofthe kids had dads who were
working in the motor vehicleindustry or making cars in

(09:45):
Woodville making towels orproducing towels and and bed
sheeting and ACTA, which isanother factory around the
corner. Televisions at Philipsand white goods just a little
bit further up into Pennington,so I grew up in Seaton and and
massive manufacturing neighbor.
And you know, looking backdoesn't seem that long ago, but
may be 20,000 manufacturing jobsin that area. And now there's

(10:11):
none. And all of the declinebegan when I was a boy, because
essentially, tariffs were beingwithdrawn first by the Whitlam
government and then by the hawk.
And that was good for theAustralian consumer. Because
suddenly with tariffs beingtaken out, cars were cheaper,
towels were cheaper televisionswere cheaper. But it meant that
all those jobs just disappeared.
And so it was, it was a veryinteresting time to grow up

(10:34):
because proudly working class,but little by little as I made
it through setting North primaryand then setting high, one by
one, you know, our dads werelosing their jobs. And that had
a big impact on the morale andthe confidence of that era.
Interestingly, though, at thesame time on the positive, women
were starting to come into theworkforce. So as our dads were

(10:56):
losing our jobs, their jobs, ourmoms were stepping in to work,
including my mom. And so youknow, it was the beginning of a
lot of change.

So you're Satan.
Hi, boy, yes, go through theSeton high and then into
university. What what what sortof struck your fancy with the
legal world

is that typical case of your, you want to make
some progress in life, butyou're not that talented. So
you're not you're not going tobe a

rock star? Or I can say I'm sitting in the same
boat and

extraordinary.
Well, most of us are, yeah. Sowhat do you try and do? Well,
you want to become a littlemiddle class, so you can give
your children a little more? Andwhat do you do you choose a
profession, you know, a doctoror lawyer and to the lawyer
thing made sense. So I spiedfrom quite a young age to be a
lawyer. And so I went to lawschool and also studied

(11:55):
economics. And so a veryconventional safe pathway to
middle class Australia.

Beautiful. So was there anything about the legal
profession that sort of drew youin? Or was it was it really just
to set yourself up?

Just ignorant perception as a youngster? My
dad was a carpet layer. And mymum then did some secretarial
work when when she entered theworkforce, but basically, the
perception that you could earn areasonable income, and you might
be even respected at the sametime. Yeah. Which would be nice.

(12:32):
Yeah,

absolutely. So your, your career is one that I
want to sort of unpack a littlebit. So let's talk about your
first few years, and coming outof university into straight into
Thompson gear. Yes. To the pointnow, where you're an advisor to
Steven Marshall, can we talk inthat in that space taught us

(12:54):
about your growth and yourlearning, learning in that in
that time? No.

My career is a classic example of somebody who
has significant weaknesses andlimitations. But who takes the
view that if you just stick to aparticular pathway, and build
some expertise, and specialistskills, and you see it through

(13:20):
with hard work, that you canmake progress, and that you can
just keep building and evolvingand come out at the end, in a in
a leadership position, doinginteresting things, and living a
life like I do, which is, youknow, every morning, you get up
and you're excited, and you'relooking forward to seeing
whether you can advance a littlefurther. So it's a great example

(13:41):
of someone with limited talent,but just who stays very focused
and stays quite disciplined andsees it through. And my early
years were a bit of a grind, Imust admit, but I was determined
to just build some basic skillsand relationships, but then take
things to where we are today.

So for someone who's trying to grow their
career, when you talk aboutbeing focused and determined,
can you talk specifically aboutwhat that was for you?

Well, it's such a very dull person. Anyone
listening is already fallingasleep, but

your beautiful dulcet tones,

thank you even realize that she No, no, look,
for me. It's about just, I'm aroutine person. Yeah. So be
being reliable, and building areputation for being reliable
and and showing a deep interestin what you're doing and

(14:34):
demonstrating some enthusiasm.
You put those two thingstogether. And if you're in
Australia, you're well on theway to going somewhere. So So
for me, it was about sticking tothe plan. And, you know, we all
have bad days, but having a viewthat on a bad day. If I just
persevere Of course, I'llrecover and get into a good day

(14:55):
soon. So pretty basic principle.
Yeah,

what did you specialize in?

Well, I were and this was a very lucky break.
Early in the early years, I camethrough just post that recession
in the early 90s. As a graduate,high unemployment very difficult
to find professional jobs,picked up a job in this firm,
that I was very pleased to get,I was delighted to get into one

(15:23):
of the big commercial firms herein Adelaide, this firm was
struggling at the time, it hadbeen a wonderful firm in the
80s. And then it got reallysmashed with a bit of bad luck
and a few other things in thelate 80s. And so when I joined,
it was coming off a verydifficult period and wasn't
recruiting much I pick up thisjob. And work is quiet, and

(15:44):
there isn't much around. Butvery luckily, I got introduced
to a client that was doing somegreat things in the Grand Prix
industry. And I started to dosome really interesting work in
that space. And it was colorfuland exciting. So there I was, I
was dealing with contracts andlicenses and doing deals on
behalf of this merchandisingclient. You know, within centers

(16:05):
management group, Alain Prost,the Williams team, called Heart
Schumacher, all those big namesof the 90s. And doing that from
Adelaide, gave me a degree ofconfidence and profile, and it
allowed me to go on and win someclients.

How did you go about the acquisition of those
clients? Like, was it reallyrelationship based was a cold
call, like, what was yourmethodology into being
introduced to these people, andthen all of a sudden building
that relay,

I was never a great marketer. But I was
extremely devoted to theinterests of every client that I
was retained to represent. And Ithink a lot of them sense that.
And they felt that I was sodevoted, and so fixated with
helping them create value and besuccessful, that they thought,

(16:54):
you know, he might not be abrilliant lawyer, not a
brilliant lawyer at all. BecauseI wouldn't be in business. I
wouldn't be running the firmnow, being a great lawyer. But I
think they thought that I wasstretching for them. Yeah. And
interestingly, on that I was Iappealed to a really
entrepreneurial class ofclients, usually men who really

(17:15):
wanted to get somewhere and theyenjoyed having somebody younger,
who was equally focused. Ididn't appeal to public sector
clients, they found me a littletoo high energy and not
necessarily as conservative asquite rightly, a public sector
organization is. So I did a lotof work in the 90s. For what was
then the DST. Oh, I think it'scalled DST now and it's the big

(17:37):
research laboratories in thenorth. Yeah, big technology
producer, very prestigiousclient. I did quite well there.
But they my style didn't quitesuit. They're very conservative
style.

Yeah. What was some of the most exciting
projects that you worked?

Well, well, that Grand Prix work was very
exciting, because it you know,it, you did the work, you
secured these rights, the bigbreakthrough deal, it's a great
story. It was actually aAdelaide based client that was
built around the Adelaide GrandPrix, to really entrepreneurial
men, one of whom I stillfriendly with one of whom, sadly

(18:12):
passed away, far too young.

But the kidnapping, you mentioned your
name.

Yeah. Alan Simon.
And one of the great thing aboutAlan, well, I'm delighted about
was he introduced me to his son,Josh, and he's now a partner
here. And one of my colleagues.
He was a young Pembroke boy atthe time and had full of talent.
And he's a great lawyer here. Solovely connections. I was called
David it. Yeah, it was quite anentrepreneurial person, and

(18:37):
great sales skills. But But whatwhat they managed to do in the
90s is persuade it and centersmanagement team, to award them a
little Adelaide company,incentives exclusive, worldwide
rights to merchandise, his name,commercializes name, huge
breakthrough deal. And they putin enormous upfront, they really

(18:58):
bet the farm. They put inenormous upfront payments to win
those rights. So we negotiatewas a huge breakthrough. We get
the deal. I think img in Londonwas representing it and center.
So I was dealing with the eliteof entertainment lawyers in
London, we get the deal. We signup all the payments, big upfront

(19:18):
payments at the farm. And withinabout a week, he does trenching.
And I still remember Alancalling me on it. It was it was
a Sunday, I think because it wasa race, wasn't it? So Ellen
brings me on the Monday morningand in a huge flat because what
do our contracts do in the eventof death? And he is bet the farm

(19:39):
on this deal. And if the dealnow terminates, is got major
problems or if it and sin isnamed doesn't commercialize,
much value will be he was deeplyupset about the passing that he
had to think about.

Absolutely right.
And what mourn the death thenwhat's next?

Yeah, and I was petrified that I'd screwed up
the contract. It turns out thatour rights are secure, and just
finished that story. All ofthose big upfront payments were
covered by merchandising salesin Japan within about three
months. Yeah. And those paymentswere made amortized though they
were there to underwrite acontract for the next maybe five

(20:16):
or so years. I can't recallprecisely. They made all their
money back in a few months. Andthen it was a huge success,
because in sender's name justbecame even even more famous.
Yeah. So that was a fun storywhen I was, you know, maybe a
two year lawyer. Yeah. And thatwas a bit of a breakthrough
moment on dealing with not justthe excitement of having put

(20:37):
together a deal that withstoodan external shock.

says a bit in that. You must pick the stock at
the right time didn't Yeah, itwill I do and the client, the
client did, yeah, it's obviouslyunfortunate. And sin is an
absolute legend. But yeah, Imean, from a talk about value of
name and products, it goes upwhen, when someone does pass
away,

I think it's a real example of men and women
who stretch and take risk, andlay it on the line. And they
know that good things mighthappen. But there'll be twists
and turns that might go theirway with it, whether buying a
development side of real estate,or get buying intellectual
property in like in that case,or backing a research project.

(21:17):
And that's, that's what I loved.
In my legal years, I was workingwith men and women who made big
bets in a creative way, and yet,never knew how it was going to
play out. That's terriblyexciting, terribly as a young
lawyer in Adelaide, terriblyexciting.

It's, there's something about living with the
ambiguity, though, isn't it? Ithink high risk, high reward? Is
that the old? Is that kind ofwhere you're playing with? Well,

I just think it's more you just don't know what's
gonna happen today. And how goodis that? Yeah. Because if you
wake up every morning, you knowwhat lies ahead, it gets down.
And again, being a young lawyerin that space, the call would
come through at any time, theclient says, hey, guess what
I've just secured. I've got adeal. In this case, I was
talking about, you know, we'vejust signed Prost, we've got a

(22:02):
month to get the contractor goto work. And that was a huge
amount of fun. And then I wentinto the biotech sector, the
Liberal government in the 90sreally did great things. They
created bio innovation essay.
They hired a guy called Juergenmcneilus, who was a really
entrepreneurial energy person.
And he built the local biotechscene strongly. And off the back

(22:24):
of my intellectual propertyskills. I picked up some
mandates in that space. Andagain, worked with a number of
companies who were pursuing drugdevelopment, or medical device
development, high risk projects,but projects that are terribly
exciting, because if they work,you solve a big health problem.
That's global. Yeah. Andshareholders make some money

(22:45):
along the way, as well. Sothat's how I finished off the
90s working off in that space.

So you moved into the big leagues quite quickly,
though. Dinya. For you sayingyear to a year to lawyer.

That's a lucky break. Yeah. And then the
biotech space was a lucky break,because I was still in my 20s.
But there weren't many lawyerslocally, who had those skills.
And I tried it off. It's astepping stone, the Grand Prix
were caught the eye of the DST,oh, even that was a different
type of intellectual property.
It was quite globallyinteresting. And then doing
technology worked at the DST owas very prestigious. And then

(23:19):
the local biotech communitypicked up on that and thought,
well, it's cutting edgetechnology commercialization
work. So he's competent, andthat gave me a run into
companies. So they'vedisappeared. But there was a
company that's very prominent atthe time called Grow pep listed.
Big market cap taken over by theDanish, but they were doing
cutting edge commercializationwork. And they retained me to

(23:43):
work on those global projectswith them. So that gave me a run
into other things as well.

You say a lucky break, but you have to put
yourself into the situation orthe position to be able to
receive that break. Yeah. Whatdid you do?

Do you know, I've told this, of course, I do a lot
of training with young lawyersin my firm. Do you know that I
can trace back all of the clientbase that I built, it became
quite substantial in the 2000sback to just one or two people.
And one person introduced me tothat person. Yeah. And then that
then I did some good work forthat person. And so I can trace

(24:20):
it back. Pretty much to one ortwo people. So that is luck.
Because one of them was just afriend of my brothers. And you
know, Frank Felker. And then hekicked me into he introduced me
to Simon Hackett. Yeah, okay.
And Simon Hackett became one ofthe great tech entrepreneurs in
the city. Absolutely. And Simonretain internal internal known

(24:42):
Yeah, and became a very wealthyman, and I backed, he backed me,
and I rode that wave as well. Solook, Daniel, it's all about
people. Yeah. Everything isabout Pete.

I think that's where I wanted to get to. Yes.
So it's a relationship game,isn't it?

But then you've got to make sure, once you had
the luck of meeting the rightpeople, that you add value to
them, and not trade off afriendship, I think that's awful
when in business, people tradeoff friendships, but I think
it's wonderful when you get onwell, and you've got that mutual
commercial respect. And you canadd value and what a wonderful

(25:21):
combo of working with people youlike, and helping them achieve
their goals. So that that's awonderful part of being a
commercial lawyer.

So it's touching, keep your wits about you, you
say time and time again storiesof, of young really, sort of
excellent lawyers orentrepreneurs, or whoever it
might be in their career. If youlook at sporting the football as
they they become young, quitequite popular, quite earning

(25:50):
some good coin, and they go downthe wrong path, you get involved
with some some of the wrongpeople. How did you keep your
wits about you?

Well, I think I'm a bit like you. I think you and
I've spoken about this, I thinkone of the and maybe I'm just
boring, but I want to peek aslate as possible in my life is
possible. So I want to be at mybest when I'm turning 100. Yeah,
so that everything in my life isabout advancement, because the

(26:21):
fear of reaching your peak, andstill having all of the energy
and health to continue. But thebest days are behind you that
would really upset andfrightened me. And so, you know,
like you I'm just wanting toprogress steadily. Yeah. And
play a long game. Yeah. So inanswer to your question, is it

(26:41):
about that, you know, sportingfriends who have had these
wonderful years at the Olympics,and then they wouldn't regret
it. But maybe everything afterthat is a letdown? Is that is
that one of the risks of being agreat athlete, you'd never say
no to it. But I look at that andsay, you know, I wish they were
able to push on and continue toadvance and not always look back

(27:03):
their Olympic years and say, youknow, that was the best moment.

Yeah, the tortoise and the hare, the
slowest

tortoise in here.
But But I think always wantingto advance no matter what you've
done today. I mean, I haven'tachieved anything interesting.
But I'd still hope to achievesomething better in the future.

Is that come down to your values, like your own
personal values and growthlearning experience?

I don't I just think it's a product of I
couldn't make the Olympics.
Yeah. I was a very cleanathlete. But I certainly wasn't
good enough to go to that level.
And so I didn't have a choice.
Did

you play baseball?

I was I was a 400 meter runner or a 400? Yes. And
I you know, when a few statetitles and represented the state
national events as a student ona number of occasions, but what
wasn't the standard, obviously,to represent the country, which
is a huge disappointment for mehere.

And now you're into cycling.

I took up cycling. Yeah. And I've got a
very keen to desire everySaturday morning to get up early
and write in the beautifulAdelaide Hills and stay fit and
stimulated. And I've been luckyto have a good group of friends
over the years that I cyclewith, and continue to, and we've
got a long lunch plan thisafternoon. Yes, at a beautiful
Adelaide restaurant. So we drinkwine more now than cycle but but

(28:20):
cycling in Adelaide is one ofthe great dividends of living in
this town. Yeah, it isbeautiful. It just we're looking
at the hills here Absolutely. Asas we sit here, and they're
magnificent. Magnificent,

hard to argue.
What did you do in your years tobecome so good, they couldn't
ignore you for the CEO role?

What I I think I've got a good story for you.
And let's let's do it. Becausewhen I was, I think 30, which
isn't young anymore. I thinkyoung men and women can be very
successful in business at ayoung age, particularly in tech.
But in the conservative legalindustry at 30. I was adamant

(29:04):
that I was ready to lead thisfirm, and that there was a huge
amount of reform that wasrequired. And the leadership
wasn't up to it. And I say thatlanguage in that blunt way,
because clearly, I might havebeen enthusiastic, but I lacked
any degree of self awareness,and diplomacy. And so I made a
hard run. And for a littlemoment, I was given some

(29:28):
leadership, access. And then Ibasically alienated everyone.
And by 32 hours using apolitical engine on the back
bench as a young partner here,the firm was much smaller, less
successful then but but still,it was it was quite large. And I
was on the back bench and viewedas divisive at 32 but with very

(29:49):
strong views about what the firmneeded to do to be successful.
And then, a few years later, anumber of things happen in the
firm's Traveling well, andthere's a GFC and 39. Having
continued to be a partner in thefirm and enjoying my legal work,

(30:10):
the guys actually came to me andsaid, Actually, will you lead
the firm? Because we've got deepproblems. And we think that your
enthusiasm and your prioritiesabout what we need to do suit
the firm's requirements and whenyou do it. So interestingly, it
required the failure. And thelesson of needing to be a little

(30:31):
more diplomatic and sensitive tolead people, before people
thought I was ready. And and andthat's when I became the head of
this firm. That's 12 years ago.

Yeah, well done.
So what was it about the failurethat the board came to you and
said, Adrian, we believe you canget us out? Well,

I had always had very strong views about the need
for this firm to be absolutelyfixated with being a strongly
competitive organization. Andtherefore, to build an
organization that was veryfocused on accountability,
transparency, autonomy, butaccountability, and then these

(31:12):
legal partnerships. There's ahuge variation in start, and I
believe that needed to be aharder, competitive environment
that held people to account. Andwhen I was young, there wasn't a
big appetite for that, whenwe're in the middle of a
recession, and quite frankly,the firm was on the verge of
bankruptcy. People were preparedto say, well, we have to take

(31:32):
our medicine, if we're going toturn this thing around, we're
gonna have to be a differentorganization. And that annoying
guy, Adrian, Tim, who used togive us a big lecture about that
this might happen one day, if wedidn't pull their socks up. It's
happened. Yeah. How would youlike to lead? And that's how it
came about.

So something good now I'm just going to rattle off
a couple of stats, one of thetop Tim firms in the country by
revenue, the seventh largestfirm in Australia by headcount,
the 10th largest firm by partnernumber, the 22nd in South
Australia. So number 22, sir, inSouth Australia, top private
companies, and 358 inAustralia's top 500 private

(32:17):
companies. What was it when youstarted

off? Well, the firm's about five times larger
today than it was when I began.
And essentially, we were addthat we put our toe into Sydney,
with very limited success. Andso we were essentially Adelaide
firm with a little satellite inSydney. And now we're a true
national institution. Now, foranyone that is listening apart
from my mother, my mum, I willtell my mom about this, and

(32:42):
she'll listen. But no one elsewould probably listen to this.
So hopefully, one other lawyer

might got a bit of a following.

When they see my name, they're gonna say, oh,
let's go to next. But look,everything you've quoted doesn't
mean much in the biggest schemeof things, the biggest scheme of
things not much, but in thelegal industry. We truly have
become a a national legalinstitution, from Adelaide, and
that's really rare because everyfirm around us, including all

(33:14):
the larger firms, are allheadquartered out of Sydney and
Melbourne, where the largest lawfirm in the country that isn't
headquartered in Sydney,Melbourne, meaning Perth,
Brisbane, Adelaide, have neverproduced a larger law firm than
that. So is that a good thing ora bad thing? I don't know. But
producing a professional servicefirm of that scale out of a

(33:37):
second tier Australian cityhasn't been done in the legal
sector before. So you know,we're proud of that. Only people
in the legal sector would beinterested in that step. It's a
real legal comment, but for theone lawyer listening that that
one was for you.

That's brilliant.
So I'm really interested in yourmethodologies of attacking, you
say you're at the point ofbankruptcy, you're five times
larger now, yes, wasnationalized with an
nationalized. So I really justwant to deep dive into what was
your strategies? What were yourmethodologies? What processes
did you introduce? You know,what mindset did you have? What
vision Did you set the companyin that space?

Well, in the first few years, it was turn
around, and it was survival. Andbecause we tipped ourselves into
Sydney, we couldn't turn backthat would have been absolute,
the end of the world for us. Sowe had to persevere and we had
to somehow pursue a nationalstrategy. Even though we are
economics, we're very, veryuncompetitive. So one of the

(34:37):
best things I ever did, I think,was as a condition of taking
over the leadership. I said tothe partners that they would all
have to commit for two years tonot take a call from a recruiter
or to not resign, so So if I wasgonna step in, everyone had to
stick together. And everyoneagreed to do that. And at least
we had the core team heldtogether to try N You know, hold

(35:01):
it together, rebuild theeconomics at least put ourselves
in a position where we could tryand grow. And again, we talked
about luck, we had a little luckearly on in my turnaround. There
was a major piece of litigationthat we won. And then there was
a major client that became veryactive. And there was just a bit
of a revenue kicker, in additionto all the cost reform that I

(35:23):
had to implement, and the twothings came together, and we
just got some breathing spacefor a year. And then we began to
build.

Did you? So let's talk more again, the strategy
then. Okay, so you've rebuiltNow we're talking? I'm looking
five years ahead. Yeah. What didyou put in? Look,

the big thing that I did was a running a law
firm in Adelaide meant that Ispent most of the working week
really for the last up untilCOVID of last year, not in
Adelaide. So so it's been, onaverage three nights a week,
first in Sydney and Melbourne.
Then we moved to Brisbane, andthen, of course, Perth, and

(36:04):
being in those cities during theweek. And staying close to, of
course, the team you have andcustomers. But most importantly
for us, we've grown byacquisition. So for me, it's
been a persuasive exercise ofwinning talent, poaching talent
from rivals, acquiring firms, acombination of mergers as well,

(36:25):
and doing that outside of mycomfort zone here on good street
in Adelaide, and being on Khanstreet on Macquarie Street,
waterfront place on the riverthere in Brisbane, and working
hard in foreign markets topersuade people that our vision
and our style would have itsplace in the national first

(36:47):
division. And we've managed todo that over time. And the big
breakthrough for me was when Ipersuaded half of the there's a
large global office, a firmcalled DLA Piper, very prominent
global law firm, but I managedto persuade half of their
Brisbane office 10 partners andabout 30 other lawyers to leave,
and to set up our Brisbaneoffice that was in 2008. And

(37:11):
that was a big breakthrough dealthat put us back on the radar as
not just being a firm that wastrying to survive. But that was
on the front foot. Yeah. And Maybe it's a credible organization
from there. We executed afurther quite significant merger
with was a prominent Melbournefirm that lost its way on its
national electrical Herbet gearand worked very hard on that for

(37:35):
two years and persuaded thoseguys to come on board. And then
from there from 214. We executedreally two more major
acquisitions, but a lot oflateral poaching of lawyers that
were prominent in moreprestigious firms, but we
managed to persuade they couldhave better careers with us. So

(37:55):
it's been a people journey. Andit's been about persuading
talent, that they should beless. And the analogy I use is
you know, I'm like, you know oneof those football managers that
poaches and does good draftpicks. You know, there's famous
English soccer managers thatthat really focus on building

(38:16):
the team. And that's what that'swhat we've done.

There's a few there's a few things in that.
One thing when you were speakingearly on is about you. You were
traveling quite a bit. Yes,interstate a fair bit. You have
a young family. How did youmanage the family and the travel
and, and that continuous driveto be away from family to grow

(38:43):
business?

Not enough, nothing beats and I say this to
everyone that ever told menothing beats having a strong
sense of purpose. And and ifanyone in business hasn't done
one yet, I strongly recommendit. Try a turnaround. There's
nothing more fun than trying toturn something around because
you just get up and it's youknow, like you're at war. And so

(39:05):
in those first two years, whenmy first week in the leadership
job, I met our bankersrepresentative. I hadn't met him
before that I was taken to lunchwith him. And as I walked in, he
stood up and said, Adrian, thisis the first week in the job.
That leader of the Sherm, and hesaid, Adrian, don't worry, we're
not going to foreclose. Becausewe were in breach of all our

(39:26):
covenants, and we had highlevels of debt. So So from there
on, you know, the next 18 monthswas survival. Yeah, and turning
it around. And that's a hugeamount of fun. And I say to
everyone, if you can get throughit, then you can get through
anything.

What was so fun about it? Oh, just

just the sense of, Can I do it, and also a
sense of responsibility toeveryone else that they've asked
me to try and lead this placeout? I can't let them down. And
that is so much better thanwaking up in the morning and
saying, Well, you know what? Igot ahead of me, there's no real
purpose to your day. I love thatchallenge. It was it was that

(40:04):
was that the best two years ofmy professional life?

Yeah, hit rock bottom, the only way was up
anyways up, we could have gottenworse,

we could have actually completely gone under
because we were on the verge ofthat.

So back to the question of what working and
managing both family and sorole? Yeah, I was talking too
much. Well, no, no, no, yourpoint of having a purpose is, is
absolutely crystal clear. Andwell, for us. It's something
that we work with a lot ofbusinesses on is we help them

(40:36):
define their purpose. It reallyfor me, it's about your own
individual purpose. And familycan provide that, as well as

Oh, yes. And the irony of that, that call to say
it's in January 2009. To sayyou're right in the middle of
the GFC. Yeah. You know, whenyou lead the firm, I was in the
US with my wife, going through avery challenging personal
period, because because we hadserious challenges having

(41:06):
children, we desperately wantedto have kids. So we were in the
thick of these deep personalchallenges. You know, she and I
were in Denver, Colorado, andthen I get that call, saying the
firm's crumbling with your help,and Polly and working hard to
become parents. That all worked.
Margo was born. She wasconceived shortly after. And she

(41:27):
was born in November 2009. So myfirst child comes along best
moment of my life.

Absolutely.

And you're turning around the firm that I
loved as well. You know, I had adeep empathy for this firm, you
know, it's a labor of love tolead this firm. So success with
Margot, you know, and of course,you want to build something for
her, you're turning the firmaround. So it was a wonderful
period of turning things aroundand going from a low, some low

(41:57):
points in 2007 2008, to bothhaving a family and leading a
business that I loved.

Having to manage your time. Well, you're young,
you're young, and then burn thecandle.

And I was already traveling before Margot was
born. So of course, it wasnormal that it wasn't there
during the

week. Okay, so you've had those habits
ingrained? Yes. Yes. Because achild comes along, it does
change a lot. Yeah, it I'm very

lucky. My wife, Polly, she and I want the same
thing. So we we've, we're veryaligned on those things. So she
was very focused on supportingme doing what I had to do.

In the rise to where you are today, and
obviously all the success Irattled off those stats before
and the and the success is, isquite paramount. Or quite
prevalent, I should say. Didyou? How did you go about it?
Did you? Did you read books? Didyou find mentors? Did you go
back and study like what wasyour? What did you grapple on?

(43:00):
Or did you have this knowledgealready? And Bill,

one of my weaknesses is that I never had a
mentor that taught me much. Anumber of friends who I worked
for, who I liked very much, butthey didn't teach me much. No, I
don't mean that as a criticismat all. But I just didn't have
that I was I was a, I was a bitof a self starter. And that's

(43:23):
just the way things were set upwhen I was quite young. So I I
learned from my own mistakes.
Unfortunately, I've made somany. But I've learned from them
myself later in life. Luckily,I've had the benefit of one or
two businessmen who I admiregreatly, who I've become very
close with. And so I've probablylearned more in the last few
years about what lies ahead fromthem. But in my young years, I

(43:45):
didn't really have much.

What was one of those mistakes that you learned
the biggest?

Look, the most famous one was just lack of
discipline around I rememberbeing sent out to a client,
there's a business story. Andthere was a secret plan to close
a number of their plants. Therewas going to be massive
terminations of employees. And Iwas interviewing one of the

(44:14):
senior executives who didn'tknow yet. It's really
embarrassing story. And Iassumed he didn't know about it.
So I let him know about it thatthat meant that he was about to
lose his job. And his whole teamwas about to be made redundant.
So he terminated my interviewpretty quickly. I was
interviewing and I'm doing aninvestigation of a matter with
him as a lawyer. And shortlyafter he went to his boss. And

(44:36):
the whole of the companysuddenly knew about the secret
plans to close these plants. Andso I got a little bit of trouble
for that. And my boss at thetime called me in and said What
have you done? So of course Ioffered my resignation. Yeah, I
was about 2425. And he saidlook, and there's a good piece
of advice that he gave me. Hesaid, Look, there's no harm in
making mistakes. But it's it's acrime if you don't learn from

(44:58):
them. Yeah. So I've learned tobe a little more discrete, as
I've gotten older, and I tellthat story to the young lawyers
to say, Look, we all make stupidmistakes. But please learn from
them.

Yeah, pick yourself up and get back on it.
The I mean, that really comesdown to the growth mindset. You
can't dwell on those mistakes. Ithink everything you do should
be about, again, coming back tothat growth and learning, right?
Yes, you're gonna make mistakes,but the best way to learn is by
making those is by making youabsolutely right. What? I'm

(45:34):
really interested in the growthperiod, right, you're your new
CEO. And I guess this could goback to you to when your this
question can come back to you,too, when you're working with
the Formula One teams. How didyou manage overwhelm? How did
you manage the time look as agrowth trying to turn around

(45:56):
those sickening feelings that gothrough your stomach? The
unknown

the beautiful thing for though, again, my
mother is older than me, she'slistening. But apart from that,
if there's anyone listeningwho's younger than me, and they
still haven't got to this point,they've got this to look forward
to. I'm a massive worrier. So ifsomeone you know, that old line,
when I started leaving the firm,the old you know what the
consultants would come in, andthey'd say, the old you know,

(46:22):
what keeps you up at night, andyou're trying to get to the
issue, so they sell you aconsulting service? And of
course, I always answer I usedto always answer everything
worries me. Everything worriesme. I get it from my genetics, I
think I think there's always adisaster that's waiting in the
morning, you know, something'sgonna go wrong. Yeah, the beauty
of getting older. One of thebeauties of getting older is you
learn that you actually alwaysget through things. And you

(46:44):
don't worry as much anymore,because even though there's
something that lies ahead,that's uncertain. You've been
through it 20 times, and yousay, I'll get it through the
21st time. So, so huge worrier,always, you know, not sleeping
and thinking about things. Butin the last five or six years,
I've become much more secure inmyself, and my capacity to get

(47:04):
through adversity as long as Istay focused and work hard.

Did you ever feel imposter syndrome?

Well, I don't feel imposter syndrome, because
I don't think I've achievedanything so so I don't feel like
I'm, well, I'm not, I'm just amediocre person. doing his best.
So I don't feel like I'msuccessful. So therefore, I'm
not an imposter. Because I'mjust ordinary.

We are not like if, if, like comparison is the
root of all evil. But if you do,if you look at from the success
factors you have achieved a lot.

Well, yeah, but one of my best friends is ROBERT
CHAMPION de Cretney, who is, inmy view, the state's by far best
businessman. And I spent a lotof time with him. I'm very
lucky. When I benchmarked myselfagainst him. I realize I've got
about 100 years to cope, to getto a reasonable level. So it all

(48:02):
depends who you spend your timewith.

That's right.
Yeah. Do you believe that in itsown right, that that you are a
product or an average of who youhang around?

Yes, for us, Robert is an example I spend
time with him. And he's alwayspulling me up on mistakes made
or weaknesses. And I'm alwaystrying to refine them and
improve them. Now, if I was withsomeone who isn't of his
caliber? Would I be trying toimprove myself? No. So so we all
want to keep improving ourselvesthat

we absolutely well? Yes, I think the people

I think I think everyone does, it's just that
some people just don't know theglory of advancement, because
they haven't had the benefit ofleadership or guidance, and our
job, your job and my job. AndRobert decryptors job is to keep
trying to influence youngerpeople, to see the beauty of
personal development, and howwonderful it can be when you can

(48:57):
be your best. It makes life justwonderful, doesn't it?

Yeah. Do you do any of your own personal
development other than sort ofthe obvious of trying to improve
every single day to read books?
Do you?

Look, I read, I read a lot of history. And pre I
start early in the morning. I'musually at my bench at about 615
in the morning. And I'll almostalways make a few bullet points
of the key priorities I've gotand how I'm tracking against
them. And keep setting new goalsas well. A quarterly goal was
six months ago, five years ago.
ago, by the time I'm 70, youknow, and I'm always refining

(49:34):
them and looking at them andchecking progress. You know,
you're on a plane and you'remaking notes, so it continuously
scrutinizing myself and tryingto push myself to go a little
bit faster. So I'm probably moreof that type. And then I'm just
trying to watch other people nowand listen and learn and see
what I can copy them a bit more.

Do you want to go into the goal setting? Can you
give us an example of some goalthat you might Sit for the next
12 months for yourself?

Well, yes, I have very clear, quantitative and
financial. Yeah, you know,profit targets. I'm obsessed
with profit targets. And I'mobsessed with acquisitions. So
I'm always setting goals in thebusiness, that I want to hit a
particular deal, or a particularprofit level by a particular

(50:25):
time. That that, that that's,that's not unusual. In the
longer term, I do have some, youknow, hopes to contribute a
little bit more to the state'seconomy. And so I try to set
goals for, you know, playing adeeper role and doing that.

So going back to the growth of Thomson gear over
the years, how much emphasis didyou put on the culture of the
business?

A huge amount.
The, you know, I mentionedearlier that I wanted the firm
to become a competitive animal,and not an inward looking
political organization that justhad people fighting over the
spoils of this, you know, piethat was obviously shrinking.
Yeah. So growing the pie andoutward looking men and women
who were just hungry to hit themarket. And that that's a

(51:07):
cultural transformation. Andthat was achieved by a whole
range of creating differentincentives and creating
different accountabilities. And,of course, fair, willing people
that could never meet thosestandards, and welcoming those
that I believed could and tryingto show some judgment around,
you know, those decisions.

(51:28):
Brilliant. It's so it's so it'sabsolutely equivalent to, you
know, the crows wanting to win apremiership or the power wanting
to win a premiership, you know,building these high performance
groups of men and women, butmen, men, obviously, in
Liverpool's power case, but menand women in the crows case,
because they got a female team,but you're, you know, it's a
people, it's building thoseteams up, and then setting a

(51:51):
style that you think is matchwinning. That's what we're all
about.

What what do you think, is the number one thing
that a CEO should do from acultural perspective?

Well, what well, there's a million things, but
for me, it's about setting anexample of discipline and
seriousness. So and beingconsistent with that. So so, you
know, one of the lonely thingsis that I used to love the
social fabric of the firm when Iwas when I wasn't leading the
firm, love drink, and I lovepeople. And I love a late night.

(52:24):
But as the leader of the firm,are very, we withdrew from that,
to set the example of completeobjectivity, and seriousness,
and focus is I don't socializeas much with my people. But I'd
hope that I set an example of,you know, discipline and
reliability, because I want themto learn from those things.

Do you think socializing with them would
detract?

No, no, look, I will, but I'm not going to be
there at 2am. Yeah, no, kickingoff the karaoke song. And making
the handsome young boy or girl,you know, I'm gonna be focused
on a behind me bear to get Yes.
I believe strongly. Well, Ibelieve strongly that the head
of an organization should bealways the first to leave and
let the young kids enjoythemselves without the scrutiny

(53:10):
of the boss. Okay, that's what Ibelieve in it. There's no right
and wrong, but that's my way.
Yeah. And that has worked verywell in the modern workplace
standards in the last five orsix years.

Yeah. No doubt.
You know? How do you manage yourtime?

Well, not well.

Something absolutely great waste time.

I get so angry myself. I was in a podcast.
Yeah, yeah. But but not always.
I probably exercise a lot. Andthat keeps me positive and
enthusiastic, even when I'mtired, because your exercise is,
you know, it's endorphins andall those years. But then that
sucks away energy for a fewother things out of balance. But
look, I don't use my time aswell as I should. And I'm trying

(53:51):
as you get older, and you know,we're all gonna die one day, you
become more focused on usingthat time better. And I think
I'm getting better at it. Butgee, I wish I use my time better
in my earlier years. So as youlisten to you, you know,

absolutely. i It's why I asked the question,
because it's something I'mabsolutely grappling with at the
moment is how to best utilize,sorry, and organize meetings and
events. And you know, you talkto me about how this podcast and
I said one a week and you sawthat a lot of time. Yes, it is.
It is a lot of time as well astrying to manage your business.

Well, you have an enormous workload, but you're
young. So you've got energylevels, and you can as long as
you look after yourself, anddon't you know, do everything in
moderation with your alcohol andyour diet and keep fit. You've
got a you've got so muchcapacity at the moment.

Yeah, dropping the ball and probably looking
after the alcohol

is just one of the pleasures of life.

Well, it's it.
It's the lunches every day thatget me a business. Yeah, well,
that's

so you have to do that. Absolutely. And you know,
you just have to stretch.

Do you put emphasis on your diary though?
Is there a way you managespecifically, do you have a

very poorly?
Yeah, I'm an instinctive person.
So I just respond to things. Andthere's, you know, rightly or
wrongly, there's a pecking orderof people around you. You know,
so if the Premier's office getsin touch, obviously you drop
everything. Yeah. If decrypt megives me a call, you know, I
take that call. Yeah. But youknow, I can't do that for
everyone.

Yeah. So I want to just ask, rounding off the,
you know, your rise and growingof the businesses see, if two
young CEOs are starting off inroles, what's a piece of advice
that you can give them

take a long term view. And that then will enable
you to feel relaxed about shortterm bad days, because you say
it doesn't matter. I've got a 10year plan. What happens today is
irrelevant in the scheme ofthings. And it just lowers your
heart rate calms you down, andallows you to always say, Am I
on track to achieve what I wantin 10 years? Yes, it was a

(56:00):
little bit of an aberration. ButI'm still on track in the long
term. And you sleep well. Solong term thinking.

This is something I grapple with because I love
that viewpoint. And I'mobviously trying to do the same
thing in manager business. Takea 10 year viewpoint. Does that
does that 10 years just keepmoving? Like when do you ever
reached the 10 years, or thefive years or whatever it might
be? It might be a 20 year,

I've got a 20 year plan

but the world changes so much is changing. I
think horse things move

please don't think that when I say a plan,
it's a it's a detailed businessplan has everything mapped out
because of course by tomorrow,most of it's irrelevant. Yeah,
no, no, but the broad vision ofwhat you're trying to end up
looking like play the long gameplay the long game. So may I say
that to our young lawyers don'tget stressed about what happened
this year. It it's irrelevant inthe scheme of things get keep

(56:56):
building your skills, keepbuilding your knowledge. And
just keep heading to where youwant to be. Become our our
business about building experts.
Yeah. So how much closer are youto being an expert in an
interesting field? If you'regetting closer, then it's all on
track. The money will come thatthat will always come to good
people always.

Do you. On touching on the relationship
side, would you say as a CEO ora young CEO? Would you advise
them to really work in honing inon the relationships both
internally of the business andexternally?

Well, you can never know enough people. So you
can never stop growing yourblack book. And along the way,
your some people might notconnect well with you, but some
will. So a that's fun. But beyou will learn and then there'll
be win wins. Yes, of course. Sonothing novel in that. Yeah,

(57:49):
yeah. Everything's

about people.
Absolutely. I agree. So thattakes me to this point. You've
been? You've come in at number26. On the advertisers, most
influential people in SouthAustralia. They've they've
tested you as one of the mostconnected people in in South
Australia as well. Can youexplain?

Well, obviously, that's not the case. And it's
very nice of the advertiser tothink that's the case.

So you're suggesting what, no, no, no,
they're new. They're notnewsworthy.

Complete.
Obviously, I'm a nobody. But Butthat, you know, I try hard. And
I hope that I can achieve myfull potential. I mean, that
that's,

what does it mean to be the most influential or
one of the most influential?

Well, or I don't know what it means. But I know
what it doesn't mean. And itdoesn't, it means that so many
people in this town are there.
And they're lovely people, youknow, you know, I love Adelaide,
as you know, but they'll openlytalk about how they run the
city. Yeah, no one runs thecity. No, our premier is our
most powerful person. But he'lltell you that he doesn't run it,

(58:59):
because no one runs it becauseit needs hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds of influential menand women who are all aligned to
build this city and to buildthis state. And so we're all
part of a group and we need tobe as united as possible. But
look, the biggest mistake, I sayis when people tell me about how
powerful influential they are,

you get a lot.
Yeah, you get a lot. Why do youthink they do is it you

I don't know, put maybe poor judgment? I don't
know. Do you play

play it down, though? I mean, you said that
you're nobody, you've neveramounted to anything. You're not
successful by any stretch.

I think it's true.

In what respect?
I

mean, well, because because, you know, I
went to Seton high, and most ofthe kids I grew up with weren't
as fortunate as me. They didn'thave a mum who pushed them
really hard to get educated. Sothat was my lucky break. Yeah,
that's my big lucky break. Butthey were as they were, they
were smarter than me, thoughmore charismatic than me. And I

(59:59):
continue most of them are morecharismatic and smart than all
of the middle class,professional men and women I've
dealt with in my time. So we're,we're, there's nothing special
about those people who are luckyenough to get educated and play
a deeper role in, you know, thefuture, for example of, you
know, a country or city light inthe way that you play a role and

(01:00:21):
I play a role. So nothingspecial.

Daniel Franco (01:00:24):
Absolutely. I agree. So 2018, you became chair
of the South Australian

Adrian Tembel (01:00:31):
Art? No, I became a commissioner and I became the
Chair a few months ago,

a few months.
Okay. Yes. And you are now thechair of the South Australian
product. tivity. Thank you. Welldone. Advisor, obviously an
advisor to Stephen much. Can youexplain to us what that is?
Look, look, I think

Stephens, an outstanding Premier. And he, I
think he brings terrificcommercial and economic acumen
to his role. And one of hisinitiatives was to establish the
assessor and ProductivityCommission, which was a version
of the federal body, and that itwould be an independent unit
that drove direct advice to himpersonally, on micro economic or

(01:01:12):
broader economic reformopportunities to grow, to get
our economic growth up. And toget our productivity up. I was
deeply interested in that I wantto play sub role in the
renaissance of this state, Iwant to support him because he
can't do it on his own. And heneeds 100 People like me, not in
government, but outside ofgovernment that are helping him.

(01:01:34):
Yeah. Because, you know, hecould be doing earning a lot
more money doing, you know,having a lot more freedom in
other roles, but he's chosen toserve. Yeah, so in our own small
way, we all need to serve youwhat you do, I do, etc. And
that's my tiny way of trying toserve and why I like it is
because a, I think I'mreasonably competent, and
building high performance teams,and we need to build the SAP see

(01:01:55):
into a small economic analysiscapability that can give great
advice. And to, you know, I'dlike to think that I have a
reasonably good understanding ofthe economy that my views added
to the team behind me might beof use to Steven as well. So
that's why I've taken on I don'ttake a fee. I do it for love,

(01:02:18):
and I do it to serve and assist.

Yeah, I'm pretty passionate about the growth of
this state, too. I grew a stoneI grew up in just a stone's
throw away from where you grew.
Yeah. I was a great Satan. Sonext one, a great neighborhood.
Absolutely. swamp lands.

Yes, exactly.

What, what is it?
From the advice, though, ofSouth Australia? But what does
that look like? What are youadvising on?

That my key theme is that in my mind, is that this
state must build its r&dplatform. If we one of my key
preoccupations is that if we areto outperform other states in
the future, and we have to catchup, because you got to remember

(01:03:07):
that we grow at a lower ratethan other states, in this
country, where we're worthless,we earn less, our productivity
is lower. So we were in recentdeep issues that we have to
grapple with our budget is indeep deficit, we have growing

(01:03:28):
levels of debt, the only way wecan recover from that is if we
lift our growth rates. And tome, the only way we can lift our
growth rates and becomeobviously have become more
competitive. But we must have avery strong research and
development base. We need morescientists, more people in labs,
building technologies and newideas that can be then used by

(01:03:52):
people like you and I, thebusinessmen and business women
to grow businesses and Stephensreally preoccupied with that
through lot 14 Are thingsterrific. But I think we need to
continue to focus on buildingthe r&d base, and not just
building the infrastructure.
Yeah. And so that's a long termpreoccupation. For me, I've got
a number of others, but that'sessentially that really defines

(01:04:13):
my colleague LAN

and in Spain in defense in healthy like,

oh, well, everything flows into those
sectors is look, we will, canyou we will never have a
manufacturing base in this city.
Unless we own the product. I'meven skeptical about submarines.
That is unless we own theproduct, you will not have a
manufacturing sector herebecause we can never compete on
cost. So we need to build. Youremember the pharmaceutical

(01:04:40):
company foldings when you were alittle boy, it was a famous
pharmaceutical company got takenover sadly, maybe 1516 years
ago, but it was an example ofbuilding medical technologies
that then build manufacturingjobs in Salisbury and on it went
and we we need to produce 20 ofthose equally in resource As you
know, I mentioned Robert toquickly before, we need to have,

(01:05:00):
you know, mining companies builtin this town. And that's around
our comparative advantage, butit's going to be people. But at
the end of the day, we're gonnaneed to build our technologies,
to then be the platform forthose to go off and build and
lead.

And do you think we're on the right track?

We are. But I think we're going to continue to
need to do better, because wehave to grow at higher rates
than we have historically, tobeat that debt level. And to his
great credit against Stephensaid, on the way in as Premier,
we need to get to 3% a year. AndI don't think structurally,
we're there yet. So we're goingto need to do everything we can.

(01:05:41):
Everyone needs to be open toreform and a bit of
competitiveness injection, theprivate sector, the public
sector, if we're to rebuild ourfiscal strength, and grow again,
and keep up with the rest of thecountry, because you don't want
to live in a state that's alwaysgetting poorer than everyone
else. That's right, because thatmeans that everyone will just

(01:06:01):
want to leave.

Yeah. How do we attract pay? Well,

it got to think long term. But most importantly,
we need to invest in our youngknowledge workers that again, I
say, we need to build on our r&dplatform. And I would be
delighted if our federal andstate governments supported that
even more NSA. And in additionto their important
infrastructure investments, theyadd to that strong investments

(01:06:30):
in people and building thoseresearch institutions and
research hubs, not not withbuildings, that's great, but
filling them with people thathave the funding behind them to
do the research that will spawnthe companies of the future.

So it's actively go out and find these people and
bring them here and you need

money. So this is about our state government
spends around $20 billion ayear. You know, they've got so
many competing interests forthat money, including hospital
beds and school, so So I getthat it's such a hard job to
deal with those competinginterests. But I think we're
going to have to keep increasingthe prioritization around what I

(01:07:08):
just said, as opposed to maybetraditional infrastructure
projects, which stategovernments as a whole feel that
is important for them to beinvolved in and they are
transports critical otherinfrastructure is critical, but
so are people. And we need tofind more funds for those people
in the research in the researchspace, that's my long term view.

Will COVID have an impact that,

yes, there is not a doubt in my mind, that lower
to mid level professionalservice jobs will be more able
to be secured. In cities likeours in the future, due to the
working from home movement, theywon't be astronomical, but we
will attract to this town moreof those back and call it lower

(01:07:53):
in professional jobs due to ourcost and simplicity and
lifestyle advantage. And

we're seeing people,

and I think that's real,

do you think people will continue

to? Yes, yes, I do. And I think more and more
large corporates will be veryopen to having, you know, not so
much a back office function, butthe mid level professional jobs
that don't necessarily need tobe near their customers in the
big cities. And they'll have itdown here. So I think we've got
a real angle there. And thatthat will be a source of growth
in this town I've got I've gotno doubt about that. I speak

(01:08:23):
about that. Not just as thechair of SA PC, but as a leader
of a reasonably largeprofessional service firm. We
will bring more jobs into Edlineover time, due to the working
from home movement, and the needfor highly paid jobs in my firm,
not to be at 60 Martin Place inone of the most expensive towels
in the country. I can move themhere. Yeah, and we're all ahead,

(01:08:44):
including the customer

is that a fear for some of those other states
is like, are they gonna?
Ultimately, they're gonna workin tandem, right? They're gonna
want to grow their states andcities

in Brisbane this week. Yeah. And of course, they
have the same view. And they'lldo well, very well out of this
as well, because they've got theOlympics on top of year. So they
got the momentum from theOlympics, and the lifestyle
benefits of Queensland. Butwe're in it. So until Sydney and
Melbourne can get its cost base.
Right. And its infrastructure,right. There will be a desire
for some workers to say, youknow, if I could pick up this

(01:09:14):
job in Adelaide, I'd go there,and the employers will see it
because there's a costadvantage. Yeah. So we'll get
some benefit from that.

Yeah, absolutely.
I didn't want to jump into COVIDtoo much. But recently, Thompson
gear put up a post on theirLinkedIn page. You don't have
anything to say. Whether they'restating that. Is it what is
lawful and reasonable onmandatory vaccines within
businesses? Yes. Can youprovide?

Look, we've got a very simple view that we have to
protect, to the extent possible,the safety of our people, and
for the vast majority of them.
That means for those who havebeen double vaccinated, they're
very welcome in the office, butFor those who choose not to be
double vaccinated, then they'renot welcome at the office. For

(01:10:04):
the time being, we'll see howthings evolve. Yeah, I'm not
discriminating. I respecteveryone's choice. But I'm not
going to put the safety at risk,or the safety of my people at
risk because of people's choicesnot to be double vaccinated.
I've got a very simple view onit. And if there's a few
employees that criticize me fordiscriminated against, I say,
you can work from home. And ifyou can't work from home, you're

(01:10:27):
not gonna be double vaccinated,then we'll sit down and talk
about it. Yeah. So very simple.

When we get to the point like are, obviously
professional services as well.
BHP being one of those clientshave mandated that everyone in
the businesses as vaccinated.
Yes. The way as clients goinginto that business,

you have to be as well as you'd have to be as
Yeah, really? Yeah.

Does that not?

Wait, I didn't go that far. I haven't required
that friends and clients cominginto the office have to show
proof of vaccination. I haven'tgot to that point.

Now. It's a balance as in your clients would
if some of your clients sayingthat you need to be vaccinated?
What happens then in that inthat situation? Can you then
mandate?

Oh, so if they said as a supplier, even though
you're not physically proximatewith us? Yes. We still require
you to be double vaccinated.

Well, okay. So you don't need to be in the room
with them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

I think it's very easy for us. Yeah. It's, it's
really hard in construction andresources where there is that
physical proximity? Yeah. Sowe're a bit clear of that. Of
that

you can work on Yeah, yeah. All the above. So
you just recently going intoThompson gear recently been
named the showing mid marketlegal advisor of the year.

Thank you. Yeah, that was it. That was a big
moment. For us. It's brilliant.
And well done to you to pickthat up. Congratulations. No,
no, that was a big deal. I madea big fuss about it earlier in
the week in my weekly email tothe firm because that that's a
we beat all of the blue chipfirms, six blue chip firms. You
know, the big prestigious Sydneyhead of headquarter national
firms, Allen's and Mallesons,and fields and cause and

(01:12:08):
Ashurst. And they bid hard forthat gone, and we picked it up
well done. And that's a keymarker for our progress. Because
I've worked hard. We've workedhard at building a very strong
mergers and acquisitionscapability nationally. When I
started, we had three m&apartners. Now we've got 25.
Yeah. And they're spread allaround the country. Big Deal
count prestigious deal list. Sothat that was a big moment. So

(01:12:31):
thank you for acknowledging thatbrilliant, yeah, great. Yes. And
we see that as a stepping stoneto getting closer to a few other
things.

This is the what is the mergers and acquisition
market look like? You know,coming out of COVID? Is there
earning? Yeah, it's

booming. I think it's white hot. I think it's
overheated. Yeah. And we have toplay that game. We have to play
the cycle. But I think it'soverheated.

Is that because there's sort of shortage in
people. So companies just likewhy can't go too much money, too
much money.

Cheap. Money is too cheap, enormous stimulus.
And all those things puttogether. cash balances are
high. m&a is going through theroof. I mean, I'm hearing
frightening stories of debtconditions being imposed on
investors, meaning noconditions, you know, no
covenants, low interest rates,have as much as you want. And so

(01:13:19):
that scares me, but our job isto serve. And so we'll ride that
way. But I'm, I'm a bear overthe medium term in relation to
those markets. I think we areoverheated. It might run for a
while. I can't call the top. Butwe're approaching it, I think.
And to me, at the moment, itfeels a little bit like 2006
2007 when it was very bullishlike this in the GFC came along.

(01:13:42):
Yeah, we are a very highlydistorted world at the moment,
for obvious reasons. Yeah. We'vegot incredibly loose monetary
policy, incredibly aggressivefiscal expansion policies, all
for good reasons. But they comeat a cost. Yeah. And the cost is
we are at risk of economicinstability at the moment.

Is that not one of your strategy, so to acquire
sure and grow yet, of course,

I'm not criticized, but just that the
price is being paid. And thefrequency and volume of deals is
very, very high. And it's aproduct of cheap money. Huge
levels of confidence. Yeah. And,Daniel, if I can give you one
piece of advice, the businesscycle did not end in 2021. It's

(01:14:29):
been around for a very long,long time, humans follow on the
way up and they overshoot on theway up because we all copy each
other. We go up and up. We alsoovershoot on the way down when
things are bad. We think it'sgoing to go bad forever. And the
job of people like you and I asleaders is to try and say, let's
not get too excited our way up.
Let's not get too pessimistic onthe way down. Yeah, that's true.
But yeah, business cycles. Watchout for them. Yeah, I'll get you

(01:14:50):
every time that they always comeand go.

So your future outlook is that it will come
back down of course.

And we're lucky because were diversified, and we
have access to litigationservices and restructuring
services that are stronger indownward markets. Yeah. So we
won't neglect thosecapabilities, even though
they're quiet now, because allrestructuring is to make sure
that we're ready to serve whenwe're in a different stage of

(01:15:21):
the economic cycle.

What are your what's your advice to those who
are getting knocks on the doorand getting asked to be bought
out? To you? Because to me, theoutlook of business looks quite
positive. Now that is shortterm. Yes.

Look, my view is never lose sight of the
fundamentals of businessvaluation. So you know, the old
again, you're young man, butthose phrases stronger for
longer, or the whole valuationmetrics has changed, you know,
you don't value a business in aconventional way anymore. Your
value just on revenue, profit.
Now, that applies for somebusinesses, don't lose sight of

(01:15:58):
long term valuation methods. Andyou know, if you really are
being paid abnormally highpremium at the moment, due to
all the hype and cheap money,you know, reflect on it. Yeah.
There's been some very famousbusiness people who understand
valuation, and they sell at thetop, and then they buy back
their commercial buildings andenterprise. I mean, Kerry Packer

(01:16:19):
was famous media. Yeah, heunderstood media cycles, very
cyclical. And he understood thatat the bottom of the cycle, to
sell in, you try to buy Yeah. Soyeah, business cycles. Don't
Don't ignore them.

Brilliant. All right, we are coming to an end.
What is the future for Adriantimbul look like? Well, and
Thompson gear?

Well, look, I can absolutely guarantee that this
firm will be better andstronger. In the future. I am
supremely confident, continuousgrowth. Yeah, but it'll be
quality growth and will bebetter. Because I think we've
built the team, we've got thebrand. And irrespective of who's
leading the firm now, it willprosper. So I'm supremely

(01:17:07):
confident about. About me. I'mjust gonna keep trying.

Yeah. Keep ticking along. Yeah. Great. To
round off the podcast, we alwaysask a bunch of quickfire
questions. This is just theythey're slightly different.
quirky, quirky questions. But weare we are big readers here at
Synergy IQ and creating synergypodcast. Are you reading

(01:17:33):
anything at the moment?

Yep. I'm reading a recent biography of our finest
Prime Minister, Robert Menzies.
Ah, yes. Yep.

You're on a board. Yes.

I'm a director of the Menzies Research Center.
Yes. Which is a right of centerThink Tank.

Yeah. Aligned liberal parties that while
you're reading

trying to qualify for the game. I'm reading about
his his time in the wilderness.
Yeah. Okay. That's I was doinglast night.

What's the book coat?

What's Troy Braxton's? Okay. Brilliant book.

Yeah. Excellent.
Is there a book that stands outto you from a career growth
point of view that you've readin your time? Is there is there
any book that you wouldrecommend more than the next
book?

Not a book, but a documentary? On Nottingham
Forest, the greatest soccerteam. And Brian Koloff, the
greatest soccer coach in worldhistory took Nottingham first
from the bottom of the SecondDivision. Yeah, to the top of
the first division within a fewyears in the late 70s. And
there's a brilliant film on themcalled I believe in miracles. So

(01:18:47):
it's all about thepossibilities. Yeah, great
leadership and big dreams.

I love it. I'll get on to it. We can is it on
Netflix or anything? Yeah, Ithink so. Yeah. Beautiful. I did
ask this a roundabout way. Iasked this during the podcast,
but I want to bring it up here.
Because this is what I want toask from a life point of view,
what is one lesson in your lifethat is taking you the longest
to learn?

Probably self awareness. And, you know,
understanding it took me a lotlonger than it should have to
work out the impact I have onother people and to you know,
refine those qualities that youknow, don't necessarily
translate that well.

What the impact on other people,

adverse impact.
Yeah, you know, I'm a verystraight, honest person. That
doesn't work so well inAustralia. You know, my genetics
is from a very different part ofthe world. Yeah. It's a very
direct blunt part of the world.
You need to be a bit morediplomatic and British and
Australian, you need to usesubtlety. And it took me a long
time to work that out at myexpense, but you know, that's

(01:19:54):
the journey, right? And that'sthe beauty of being a migrant.

Absolutely.

You get to develop

If you can invite three people over for dinner,
who would they be?

Oh, you should?
Well, Brian cloth. Yeah. was thefirst one. Yeah, that I
mentioned. Probably TomPlayford, who I think was our
finest Premier. And thirdly wellhave to be Robert Menzies,
wouldn't it? I find his PrimeMinister. Yeah, cuz that'd be a
good one. That'd be good one.

Oh, I'll just assume that Polly was invited.
Alright, so talk to her. I justdon't want you getting. I talked
to her and I get ignored. Yeah,yeah, I'm feeling I just pulled
away. Yeah, exactly. 100% if youwhat some of the best advice
that you've ever received.

I, I didn't get much advice for many people to
be honest. Because I'm, I comeacross as being a little self
assured. And so as a result, Ithink people have found me
unapproachable. And it's rare.
But occasionally people willtell me off. And I'm always
grateful for that my mum tellsme

nobody listens, you know, giving talks.

And a few others told me off as well.

But very rarely, when you say tell you if you're
an adult, right?

You say you shouldn't have done that. Yeah,
that happened to me last Fridaynight. Yeah. at a dinner party.
I got told off by someone olderthan me. And I hold in high
regard. Yeah. And he said,Adrian, you shouldn't have done
that. And I listen to eachother. And I learned something
from it. But very few peoplewill do that.

Yeah. I wish they do it more. Hmm. Yes. So. So
it's hard, isn't it? Well, selfawareness, right. Friends,

were also scared to give critical commentary to
our friends, and they probablybenefit from it.

Or they absolutely benefit from it. I
think receiving feedback is justas much a skill as providing I
agree. Right. So we've got toget better at we do abs all of
us. Yes.

I tried to take I mean, how good are you at
receiving feedback andcriticism?

I pride myself on it, because, but that comes back
to my core values of being ofalways wanting to learn. If
someone provides feedback, myapproach is always I'll listen.
And I'll won't come in. And likeunless I need to, and I'll and
I'll decide whether I take thaton or not. Yeah, but I'm not

(01:22:15):
gonna sit there and fight backand have an argument. I don't
want to get into a war of words,you're entitled to your opinion.
If you believe something, I'lltake that on board. I might
adjust my behavior next time.
But I'm, for me, I'm a suckerfor knowledge. If someone's
providing me for wisdom, howgood is that with some advice,
then? Yeah, I'm keen to learn Ifeedback is a gift. Right?
That's how I look. But I don'tthink we do it. Well, we don't.

(01:22:38):
It's a muscle that you getbetter the more you do it.

Everyone in Australia is telling everyone
else how good they are. And howbrilliant we are. how resilient
we are. Because we've got twojobs. Yeah, we should pat
ourselves on the back. Yeah.
Trying to save us from dying.
Yeah, I mean, seriously.

Yeah. You know, yeah, I agree. If you had access
to a time machine, where wouldyou go?

I'd go. Yep. I'd go to I go back to 1977 1978.
And go watch Forrest play. Whenwhen Brian Huff was in charge

the be in the rooms with him.

Just watch the game. Yeah. See the great man
action? That's awesome.

If you had one superhero power, what would it
be?

Oh, flying would be good, wouldn't it? It would
be

to be boring.

I look. I look at these birds. My dog coffee.
Yeah. Named after Brian Clark.
Yeah. I watch him for hourstrying to he watches these
birds. Yeah. And they play withhim. They stay in the branches
and just mix him up. Yeah. And Ithink I'm sure he's thinking if
only I could fly like that.
Check it out to flying and begood fucking legend, looking at
everything and checking outthings and disappearing for a
while.

Yeah, sense of freedom. Yeah, freedom. Yeah.
Yeah. All right. I actuallywarned you.

One thing you want me? Okay.

I could tell jokes. No, I know, you guys.
That's all I feel. You're right.
You are a straight shooter. AndI thought if there's one
question you're gonna struggleon. It's this one.

Picking. I'm notorious for being the worst
joke I actually

gotten. I let me ask the question. What is your
best dad? Yeah.

So it's got some relevance because I'm notorious
for giving along PowerPoints.
Okay. Yeah. And I my PowerPointwas go for too long. So why did
the PowerPoint presentationcross the road? Why to get to
the other slide? So I'm so bad.

It's brilliant.
It's very rare.

To get a laugh when I give you speech. I'll
tell the joke. No one laughs andthen I'll say to the room.
Thanks for your support. Andthen

it's the dig it yourself that brilliant. Thank
you so much for your time today.
Adrian. It's been wonderful.
learning a little bit more aboutyou and your career your journey
experiences your ups and downsand your learnings thank you for
all that you're doing for theSouth Australia as well as you
know that they can't gounnoticed you're doing you are a
man of influence even though youplay it down, you are doing some

(01:25:14):
really great things within thestate. And you know, I'm on
board I'm on board completelywith with growing and developing
and I don't want to be known asa backwater state, I want to say
Australian boy through andthrough. So for me, it's it is
always about growth anddevelopment of both self and of
the community and of the state.
So thank you for all that you'redoing.

Well, thank you.
And, and that was a lot more funfor me than it was for you or
any listeners. My mom enjoyedit. But you are. I mean, this
seriously, what you're doing isoutstanding. Doing these things
is outstanding. And you've got ahuge future ahead of you.

Appreciate it.
Thank you very much. All thebest. Thanks, guys. Take care.
Thanks for listening to thepodcast. Or you can check out
the show notes if there wasanything of interest to you and
find out more about us atSynergyiq.com.au. I am going to
sk though, if you did like theodcast, it would absolutely
ean the world to me if youould subscribe, rate and
eview. And if you didn't liket, that's alright too. There's

(01:26:13):
o need to do anything. Takeare guys, all the best.

Synergy IQ (01:26:20):
Thank you once again for joining us here at creating
synergy. It's been greatspending this time with you.
Please jump on to the synergy IQFacebook and LinkedIn page where
the discussion continues afterthe show. Join our mailing list
so you'll know what's happeningnext at Synergyiq.com.au. And
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(01:26:41):
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#56 - Adrian Tembel, Chief Executive Partner of Thomson Geer on: The Journey to Building one of the Largest Law Firms in Australia

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#56 - Adrian Tembel, Chief Executive Partner of Thomson Geer on: The Journey to Building one of the Largest Law Firms in Australia