The Spiritual Tapestry of Kemper Crabb & Frank Hart's Music

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Embark on a journey with Christian rock pioneers Kemper Crabb (ArkAngel) and Frank Hart (Atomic Opera) through the landscapes of faith and sound that define Contemporary Christian Music. Host Tim Ristow guides the conversation with these two legends to uncover the genesis of this genre with Kemper during the Jesus Music era to Frank building on that legacy during the '90's, while also peering into the personal faith paths that carved their storied careers. From the vibrant energy of creating some of their best albums to the intimate reflections on how faith has interwoven with their artistry, these artists offer a compelling narrative of conviction and creativity that has left an indelible mark on the world of music.

Witness the alchemy of medieval melodies and the poetic depth of songwriting as Kemper delves into the creation of ArkAngel's "Warrior," an album that embodies the resonance of historical influences within modern Christian rock.  Frank, on the other hand, brings us into his artistic metamorphosis, detailing the path that fueled his transformation into a songwriter with a mission and that lead to the formation of his band, Atomic Opera, and their four hard rocking albums: For Madmen Only (1994), Penguin Dust (1997), Alpha & Oranges (1999) and Gospel Cola (2000).

As we weave through their anecdotes and experiences, we uncover the essence of a friendship fortified by music and ministry, a bond that has catalyzed their collaborative spirit and artistic evolution.

Join host Tim Ristow and guests Kemper Crabb and Frank Hart in an episode that beckons a deeper appreciation for the interplay between creative expression and unwavering faith.

Kemper Crabb (ArkAngel)
kempercrabb.net

Frank Hart (Atomic Opera)
frankhart.com

NewChurch
newchurch.love

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Today, on Creative Christians, two legends from
Christian rock history, KemperKrab and Frank Hart, join me to
discuss music, faith, creativityand the making of some of their
best albums.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
When I started there weren't many of us.
As a matter of fact, we kind ofconsidered Keith Greene to be a
latecomer, because by the timehe came along there actually was
the beginning of CCM.
When we started we didn't thinkin terms of CCM because it
wasn't there.
We didn't think of playingchurches because they wouldn't
let us in because we wereplaying devil music.
You know, archangel's firstairplay was on rock radio here

(00:41):
in Houston and we wereChristians and we looked on that
as an opportunity to witness topeople.

Speaker 4 (01:06):
What I wanted to do was I wanted to share the gospel
.
I wanted to do that throughmusic, because music had
informed me, it had formed me,and I wanted to be able to do
that for other people.
Music had made me considerthings deeply.
I wanted to provoke otherpeople to the same kind of
experiences.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
That's Kemper Krab and Frank Hart today on Creative
Christians.

Speaker 4 (01:51):
To be in Christ and have an identity in Him above
anything else.
I think it's extraordinary.
If you believe, God's calledyou, you can't walk away from
that.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
These are stories of creative Christians.
Welcome to another episode ofCreative Christians, the podcast
series that explores Christiancreatives, their talents, their
faith and what they're doing atthe intersection of both.
I'm your host, tim Risto.

(02:22):
I'm so glad you've joined me.
This episode is kind of awatershed moment for me in the
history of this podcast seriesbecause my guests are two
legends from Christian RockMusic History.
I have a long association withChristian Rock, going back to
about 1983 in Houston, texas,the very city where I recorded

(02:47):
this interview.
No, I never played in a band orproduced an album or anything
as impressive as that.
I just grew up listening toChristian Rock and it was very
formative in the development ofnot only my musical preferences
but in my faith life and inproviding me another tool to use
as a spiritual guide.

(03:08):
When I was a teenager, Iremember listening to the Rock
of Love on KSBJ FM radiosomething better Jesus in
Houston.
When I was in high school.
The Rock of Love was athree-hour radio show that
played nothing but the latestand best in Christian Rock.
I waited all week for thatthree-hour window of great rock

(03:29):
music.
I would discover a new artiston that show and head out in
search of their albums that verysame weekend.
I can't underscore enough howthe influence of artists like
Resurrection Band Petra, jeffJohnson, prodigal DeGarmo and
Key Whiteheart and so manyothers were really important in

(03:52):
my young life and continue to beeven to this day.
That holds equally true for myguest today.
My guest today are Kemper Kraband Frank Hart.
Kemper is perhaps mostrecognized as the founding
member of the band Archangel.
Their album Warrior, releasedin 1980, is a classic of

(04:14):
progressive art rock.
Kemper is one of the foundersof early CCM or contemporary
Christian music, having been apart of the Jesus music movement
in the 60s and 70s and eveninto the 80s.
Alongside artists like LarryNorman, keith Green and Love
Song, among many others.
Kemper has a number of greatsolo albums as well, including

(04:37):
the Vigil, another classic, andReal Aquarium, personal favorite
of mine.
He's also front of the band.
Radio Halo was a part of theband.
Kademan's Call wrote the bookLiberation Front Resurrecting
the Church and produced awonderful performance special
that aired on PBS, titled Downin Yon Forest, featuring

(04:57):
performances of Christmas musicfrom the Middle Ages All great
stuff.
Frank Hart is founding memberof the 90s rock band Atomic
Opera, of which Kemper is also amember.
Atomic Opera has four greatrocking albums in their
discography for Mad Men Only,penguin, dust, alphas and

(05:18):
Oranges and Gospel Cola.
Frank wrote a book titled JoyRide, which we'll get into later
, has a podcast titled FrankThoughts I love that and is
serving as pastor of New Churchin the Houston area.
Frank also has a number ofgreat solo albums out, too many
of which Kemper has also playedon, and the Liturgy is perhaps

(05:39):
my personal favorite among those, and you'll get to hear tracks
from that album a bit later.
In fact, you're going to hearsome samples of a lot of each of
these guys' music throughoutthe show.
Today.
Both of these talents havetoured and played all over the
country and world, including thefamous Cornerstone Music
Festival, which, from 1984 to2012, was a fantastic Christian

(06:00):
music festival that was heldannually near Chicago, featured
a revolving, diverse lineup ofChristian rock bands from across
the country.
It was sad to see that festivalend, but there are some new
great festivals that have beengearing up in recent years,
including a mortal fest in Ohio.
Atomic Opera and its heydayeven opened for some secular
bands of the day, includingRonnie James Dio, and an

(06:23):
unfortunate missed opportunityto open for Soundgarden.
I traveled to Houston and hadthe opportunity to spend an
evening hanging out with thesetwo legends and talk all things

(06:46):
music, faith and creativity.
I was really looking forward tothis opportunity to talk with
these talented musicians and menof faith.
These guys have produced someamazing music, but they're
incredible thinkers too.
I've had opportunity tointerview thousands of people
over the decades, but as I gotready to start recording this
interview with these guys, Irealized I was experiencing

(07:09):
something I hadn't felt in avery long time before an
interview.
I was a little nervous.
These guys, in different waysand at different times, through
their music, their creativityand their faith, had been
foundational in my own personaldevelopment.
It was a little intimidating tosit down and pick their brains.

(07:29):
Thankfully, these guys put meat ease and made this a fun
conversation.
Sit back and enjoy.
So let's just get right into itand welcome Frank and Kemper to

(08:08):
Creative Christians.
Welcome, guys.
Thanks for being here today.

Speaker 4 (08:11):
Hey, thanks for having us on the show, man yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Let's just start right at the beginning.
Music how did each of you firstreally kind of get into music?
Playing music, Frank, go for it.

Speaker 4 (08:23):
I was always somewhat obsessed with music.
I can remember being very youngfour or five years old and
grabbing a mop handle andsinging Elvis songs and my mom
coming out from the bedroomgoing you know, that sounds
pretty good.
And then I'd stand up in theback of the pickup trucks in the

(08:44):
neighborhood and do littleconcerts, doing like Tony
DeFranco and the DeFranco familysongs and singing for the girls
in the neighborhood.
Yeah, so that was my earlycareer, preschool.
And then I became obsessed withK-Tel records.
No one in my house everlistened to music.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Really.

Speaker 4 (09:05):
So I had this little farmer in the Dell record player
and then I would buy K-Telrecords now and then.
So they were like just you know, dear Prudence, or Roy Clark,
or Fly Robin Fly, I mean juststuff that was playing on the
radio.
And it wasn't until I got alittle bit better record player

(09:27):
at some point and my mom and dadbought me the number one record
that was out, which was EltonJohn Rock of the Westies.
Not a good record, not really,but it got me interested in good
records.
And so I kind of becameobsessed with just sitting and
listening to music and listeningto lyrics.
And Elton John was definitelyvery instrumental for me.

(09:52):
I didn't know it at the time,but because he had a poet
writing his lyrics and then hewas sort of a natural song Smith
melody maker.
That was a really greatcombination, cool.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Camper, what about you?

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Well, my mom always listened to the radio and in San
Antonio, which is where I grewup, we had this station called
KAPE, the Soul of San Antonio,which was like an R&B soul
station.
That's what I listened to for along time and I always listened
to the radio and liked stuff.

(10:30):
I got a little older.
My sister wanted an LP on theradio which was a turtles record
, and I liked that a bunch.
I bought Glenn Campbell's bythe time I get the Phoenix album
.
It was the second album I got.
And then my father found aharmonica when we were camping

(10:50):
somewhere.
So an old honer.
So I started playing theharmonica and I was in the
church choir.
Then one night we were doing achoir tour.
They wanted to do a thing of ohHappy Day, Edwin Hawkins
Singers, which I listened tobecause that was so great.
So then the director said well,we need somebody who can hit a

(11:15):
G, a high G.
My friend said he was one ofthe people who was singing.
He said well, camper can dothat.
I sang and, lo and behold, Idiscovered I could.
So then I started singing andthis was right about the time
when the Jesus movement happenedGot to San Antonio and then,
not terribly long after that, Istarted hearing the early guys,

(11:39):
the earliest guys, norman andthe very first love songs, first
record and all that stuff.
So then I thought, well, I cankind of say I guess I'd learn
how to play an instrument besidethe harmonica, because you
can't really do both at the sametime.
So I started playing guitar andthat's kind of how I got.

(12:02):
I mean, then I started writingsongs, because I realized there
weren't many songs that said thekind of stuff that I cared
deeply about and I knew therewere people who did that.
So that's how I got into that,basically.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
Let me go to the stereotypical question what were
the musical influences for eachof you?
What bands were you listeningto as you got more and more into
music?
What was the most influentialon each of y'all early on?

Speaker 2 (12:28):
I was listening to King Crimson, moody Blues yes,
all the so-called art rock bands, as well as Early Step and Wolf
and Iron Butterfly, stuff likethat, as the radio stations
began to play those and ofcourse when they first started

(12:50):
they really kind of didn't.
But when they began to playthose and that was right when FM
started and they'd play thewhole cuts and everything.
So those are the bands that Iwas listening to.
Frank, go about it.

Speaker 4 (13:02):
It's very different for me between before the age of
14 and after the age of 14.
So before the age of 14, I'mlistening to Bob Seeger and Step
and Wolf and Aerosmith and Kissand lots of Elton John,
fleetwood Mac, boston, kansas.

(13:24):
I mean, I'm very into buyingrecords, have tons of records
and just sitting and thinkingabout what is making this music
work and I'm learning how toplay some different instruments,
but not very well.
My family didn't go to church.
We weren't raised in church andthen at 14, god finds me in our

(13:47):
backyard.
I end up finding out who Jesusis not too long after that and
then I want to start writingsongs and I want to communicate
what had just happened to me toother people.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
In 2015, frank published his book Joyride a
beginning and every end.
An intimate, engaging and oftenhumorous look at his life and,
more accurately, his faithjourney.
Joyride has tons of personalstories, including many about
atomic opera, making albums andtouring An insightful read into
Frank's mind, heart and faith.
Here's some select excerptsfrom Frank's encounter with God

(14:29):
in his backyard.
At a young age, I felt quitesuperior to all the poor,
hypnotized masses until I sawGod.
I don't mean I saw a vision orthat.
God appeared to me in the flesh.
I simply looked up at the starsone night and suddenly could no
longer sustain the belief.

(14:49):
God wasn't there.
I was 14 years old, felt sosmall.
Standing in my backyard I couldfeel the grass soft as velvet
under my feet, the dirt underthe grass and the air between
myself and the expanse of space.
I could sense the microscopicuniverses making up each atom,
which in turn make up everythingthat is.
It all seemed toointerconnected to be random.

(15:12):
I couldn't convince myself.
Given enough time and space, agodless universe could end up
generating me staring at thestars, trying to not believe in
a god who wasn't there.
How could we ever suspect thatthe universe was without meaning
, if it was actually withoutmeaning.

(15:32):
After I saw God, or felt him seeme, I went back inside the
house.
My family was sitting aroundthe TV watching HBO a new and
amazing thing in our world.
I was still thinking about God.
So I got up and walked over toour bookcase.
There was a set ofencyclopedias, a dictionary, a
copy of I'm Okay, you're Okay,and the Bible.

(15:53):
None of these books had beenread, except possibly the
dictionary for homework.
I picked up the big white Biblewith its padded cover and gold
trim, carried it back to thecouch and sat down.
It was a family Christmaspresent from my grandma Hart
several years before, but it hadsat unappreciated until this
night.

(16:13):
I cracked it open.
If you open a big Bible to thecenter, you could end up in a
number of places, but I landedin Psalms.
What I found was amazing inlight of what had just happened
in the backyard.
Psalm 19, the heavens declarethe glory of God and the sky
above proclaims his handiwork,day to day pours out speech and

(16:34):
night to night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech, nor arethere words whose voice is not
heard.
Their voice goes out throughall the earth and their words to
the end of the world.
I said, hey, listen to this andread the first part out loud to
them.
Have you ever read the Bible?
Of course my mom said this asthough the question was an

(16:55):
insult.
Of course I've read the Bible,but she hadn't read the Bible,
not much of it anyway no one inour house had.
I took the big book upstairs tomy bedroom and started in the
beginning I was going to get toknow this God who wouldn't allow
me to not believe in him.
So that faith moment in thebackyard for you was kind of a

(17:18):
light switch, so to speak, notonly for your faith but I mean
musically as well.

Speaker 4 (17:21):
Oh, it changed everything.
All I wanted to do was haveconversations about faith with
people, try to give them lightand hope.
I wanted to convince peoplethat God existed and that
through Jesus, he loved them.
I just wanted to tell everyonethat.
But it wasn't too long afterthat that I discovered all kinds

(17:45):
of Christian rock that I justloved so much, some of that
being Archangel and Kemper, someof that being Larry Norman and
Keith Green, two very differentapproaches.
Larry Norman is moreprovocative.
Keith Green's just doing Biblestudies and preaching through
songs.
I'm kind of fascinated withboth of those ideas.

(18:05):
So yeah, all of the Christian,all of the-.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
Resurrection Band.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
Resurrection Band.
Yeah, I love that.
Glenn Kaiser just a fantasticinfluence on me when it comes to
so it's hard rock, so that'sfamiliar to me.
I'm loving that.
He's got the bluesy, raspyvoice, so I love that.
And he's sort of a combinationreally between Larry Norman and
Keith Green.

(18:31):
It's like sometimes he'sprovocative and clever and
interesting and sometimes he'sjust singing the Psalms.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
Right.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
I was listening to for Mad Men Only on the drive up
here from Austin and I kepthearing aspects of Resurrection
Band in that album and in yourvoice I mean you're like the
second coming of Glenn Kaiser, Ithink.
In some ways.
I kind of hear that in thatalbum in particular and I can
hear some influences, definitelyin the guitar and your

(19:02):
performances.

Speaker 4 (19:03):
Yeah, the big, bombastic, bluesy, raspy voices,
that's what I always loved.
I didn't learn how to do thatfor a long time, right.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Did you guys get to play with a lot of other
Christian rock artists, performwith them, tour with them or
interact with them or work onprojects other music projects
with them?

Speaker 2 (19:21):
albums.
I mean we opened or toured with, in some cases played with a
bunch of different bands overthe years.
I knew Keith Green and Normanand all those guys.
I mean when I started thereweren't many of us Right and, as
a matter of fact, we kind ofconsidered Keith Green to be a
latecomer, because by the timehe came along there actually was

(19:43):
the beginning of CCM.
When we started we didn't thinkof playing churches because they
wouldn't let us in, because wewere playing devil music.
But Archangels its firstairplay was on rock radio here
in Houston and stuff like that,and we were Christians and we

(20:05):
looked on that as an opportunityto witness to people and stuff
like that.
But we didn't think in terms ofCCM because it wasn't there,
but because we were around.
So early on we did meet a lotof people.
There was a guy in town, rayJohnson, who had New Earth
concerts that I started workingwith for a while and most of
those artists were brought intoHouston and a lot of times we'd

(20:27):
open for them and so I'd knownbunches of them and became
really good friends with anumber of them.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Archangel Warrior.
How did that album come about?
How did that project come about?
Were you foundational informing Archangel?

Speaker 2 (21:29):
I'd had a band called Redemption before that and when
we started touring we startedtouring as Redemption, but then
we discovered that there was aband with Salvation Army in the
Northeast, a really good bandcalled Redemption, and they had
an album out and people werekind of knowing who they were.

(21:50):
So we changed the name toArchangel and we were touring
and playing a lot and weultimately played a lot in
Houston.
That's why we moved here andwhen we did there was a brand
new record label, starsong, atthe time and there was a group
called Hope of Glory who waskind of our sister band in a lot

(22:13):
of ways, did a lot of concertswith them, and one of the guys
in there was one of theprincipals in that record label,
in Starsong, and he introducedme to his partner, darrell.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
Darrell is Darrell Harris, who co-founded the
Starsong label in 1976 andserved as its president for 20
years.
Harris' name is synonymous withcontemporary Christian music,
having been responsible forsigning artists like
Resurrection Band, petraNewsboys and many, many other
well-known CCM artists.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Darrell came over to my house one night for supper
and I had a mountain dalsamersitting in the corner and he
said what is that?
I told him, can you play it?
And I said yeah.
And he said did you write anysongs?
I said yeah.
So I played him like they godown to the sea and ships and a
few things.
And he said, well, do you haveany more?
And I said, yeah, I got moresongs, but I'd have to play them

(23:08):
on guitar.
And he said, okay, so I playedthat.
And he said, well, we want tosign you.
I mean that never, ever happensin the world.
That's like totally out ofmovies or something.
I said, well, you can't becauseI'm in a band and you'd have to
sign the band.
And he said, well, when are youall playing?

(23:29):
I said we'll play in tomorrownight.
So him and his partner came outand heard us play and signed us
.
Because of that they were like,well, do a record.
So the songs that I had writtenand that we were performing, or
what became Arkang's when Itend towards the thematic they

(23:50):
were arranged fire face and windface on the LPs back then and
I'd become friends with a guynamed Jimmy Hudson.
So, we helped build the studio.
He produced his record which Iplayed on, and then he did the
production with me and primarilywith me and stuff, and we

(24:11):
recorded it in Pasadena at thestudio that that label, Star
Song, owned at the time RivenDell recorders.
So that's how that happened.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
Jimmy Hudson is on a Crystal Sea.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yes, beyond the Crystal Sea.
Beyond the Crystal Sea, anothergreat, great album as well.
He just passed away a couple ofmonths ago.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
He did.
I was not aware of that.
Sorry to hear about that.
Another fantastic artist fromthe history of Christian music
as well.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
When the Arkangel album came out first, I got
awarded all these awards that Idon't think actually existed
Maybe they just created them togive them to me or something and
there were articles and stuffthat still got them.
They talked about the lyricsbecause they said, well, these
lyrics are so poetic.

(25:01):
And at the time I realized thatmost of the bands that would
become known as CCM bands orwhatever were writing pretty
straight ahead lyrics, but thestuff that I was listening to
from the mainstream andeverything were yes, and all
these people that had verypoetic turns in their approach.

(25:24):
So when I started writing aboutChristianity, I pretty much
tried to do that.
But it's weird.
It's not that way anymore.
But when it first started,stuff that would be considered
Christian music was reallystraight ahead, which I thought
was pretty freaking boring.

Speaker 1 (26:03):
Your style of music, that medieval kind of old
English style, and this kind ofCeltic influences in there too.
Why did that appeal to you?
Why was that an approach thatyou were interested in pursuing?

Speaker 2 (26:14):
There's two answers to that.
One is long before I was intomusic.
I read a lot and all kinds ofstuff.
When I was in fourth grade Iread the very first issues of
Tolkien that were officially putout here, and at the end of

(26:37):
that I read the appendices andsome of those were about runes
and stuff like that.
Then I realized that there wassomething of kind of a
historical foundation to what hewas riffing off of.
So then I read everything thatwas in English about runes by
the time I was in sixth gradeand there wasn't that much, you

(27:01):
know, there were only six orseven books.
So then I began realizing why Icould study historical stuff
about that, and in that I cameacross the thing of medieval
music.
I began to read those lyricsand stuff and you know, the
early music thing was justbeginning back then.

(27:23):
So you know, I heard Crusadermusic and all this kind of stuff
like that and that interestedme a lot and I did a lot of
research in that.
And then, plus, you know, rockmusicians, people who do hard
rock especially, tend to be veryinterested in the musical forms
that you know that come alongwith medieval music and that's

(27:47):
because those were largely drawnfrom the Middle East.
So you know, because of,because of those, I guess, twin
kind of influences, I liked rockmusic and like most of those
people, I liked, you know, thosekind of influences and stuff
and so it was really kind of acombination of the historical
and I mean most everybody likesthat kind of music.

(28:08):
Okay, I didn't understand whymore people didn't do it.
And so that label I was talkingabout Star Song, they, when
they signed the band, part ofthe deal was a Proviso that I
would do a solo album with a lotof those songs that I played
for them.
So the vigil came along afterthat.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
I've got here and I love it.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
It's a great album, and that's that's that's why I
was interested in my.
My degrees are in medievalliterature and medieval history.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
Wow, interesting yeah .

Speaker 2 (28:39):
So I, you know, studied a lot about that period.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Natural extension of that.
You told me something about thevigil too.

(29:23):
You're working on a sequel tothat, is that correct?

Speaker 2 (29:26):
It's been written for since the 80s.
I, you know, on and off thoughtabout doing it and something
else always came up or somethinginterfered or whatever.
So, yeah, I'm producing analbum, and when I finished
producing this album whichshouldn't be too much longer
than I'll then I'll I don't knowI may do a fund raiser kind of

(29:50):
thing, like the crowdfunding orsomething, or, something, and
the quest, which is the sequelto that.
it's been written for well over20 years, 30 years probably, wow
.
And then the throning, which isthe third in the trilogies.
I guess it's probably more thanhalf written, so fantastic.
So you know, if I live longenough, maybe we'll see the

(30:16):
quest in the throning.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Well, I certainly hope so, because the vigil is a
wonderful album and another,another classic in your your
long discography.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
I rest me in the fall of rocks and trees, of skies
and seas.
Is hand the wonder draw?

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Touch on Reliquarium.
Am I pronouncing that correct?

Speaker 2 (32:20):
Yeah, reliquarium.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
That album which I told you before.
I've just been listening tothat first track on repeat.
So much Again on the drive here.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
It's the favorite album of mine that I've ever
done and I resisted that album.
I think I mentioned.
My dad was a missionary inIndia and Africa and he wanted
me to do a fundraiser for hisministry.
Servants of the king.
He wanted me to do a hymnsrecord and I said, dad, the

(32:48):
world needs another hymns record, like it needs a hole in the
head, because there's a bunch ofgreat ones out there.
Even ones by heretics like theMormon Dabernacle Choir.
There's great hymns, and hekept hammering me and finally I
said, well, okay, I said I won'tchange the lyrics or anything.
I'm not one of these yehous whoadd stuff to hymns.

(33:09):
But I said, if I can arrange ithowever I want to, and he said
yeah.
So you know, as I mentioned,you know I'm interest as well in
Middle Eastern things and stuff, and so I just started
arranging those songs just theway I wanted to.
I mean, you know, frank playedon a lot of people, but I played

(33:32):
most of the things that I canplay on there.
It was the whole point of itwas to raise money for my dad's
missionary organization, whichit did.
He passed away like two yearsago, but that's where it came
from.
I think it was distributed fora short period of time by one of
the Christian labels, but it'snot one of my better known

(33:56):
albums.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
And that's a shame, because it's a fantastic album
as well.

Speaker 4 (34:00):
But it's also weird in the best possible way,
because Kemper and I have talkedabout this before.
So these are well-known hymnsthat sort of transcend different
cultures.
So what would those hymns soundlike outside of time, before
the throne of God, when allthese different people from

(34:21):
different cultures show up andsing holy, holy, holy, what
would that sound like?
So you mentioned that track.
That's Kemper's imagination ofwhat that would sound like,
because yes, it has the majorkey melody of the classic hymn
but it also has my abstract sortof Middle Eastern guitar solo

(34:44):
going out going through thething.
I love that.
And then it's got all of theMiddle Eastern percussion going
on through it.
So it's kind of like all ofthese cultures coming together
to make this beautiful noisebefore the throne of God that
transcends any individualculture.
I love that.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
Frank, that is an excellent point and that really
gets at the heart of why I liketo talk to fellow creatives,
because that's the type of thingthat I love about Christian
creatives is being able to comeup with things like that that
put a new spin on things thathave been around forever but
give us a new way to look atsomething.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
I spent time in India with my dad back when in the
90s and so forth, and when I wasputting the album together I
was trying to blend things tosome extent, since it was for
his ministry and his ministrywas both the Africans and Asians
of Indian extraction.

(35:42):
So I like the way it worked out.
That's why I say it's myfavorite record I've done.
That's the one I least wantedto do.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
Interesting you fought it yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
Either we'll have, in the morning, our song shall
rise to thee Holy, holy, holy,merciful and mighty God in three

(36:43):
persons, blessed Trinity.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
The song shall rise to thee Rel Aquarium is one of
Kemper Krab's finest works andhe has many great albums, but
having listened to it completelysix times now since doing this
interview, I truly consider itKemper's masterpiece so far.

(37:25):
It is an incredibly rich albumof diverse music where you can
hear the influences ofeverything from lead zeppelin,
deep purple, pink floyd,resurrection band and others
intertwining with Kemper's ownmusical palette to deliver
something truly amazing.
Do yourself a favor and pickthis album up, listen to it all

(37:49):
the way through with really goodheadphones and hear classic
hymns in a fresh new light.
The labels of Christian musicKemper, you and I were talking

(38:09):
about this before we startedrolling.
How do you guys feel about thatlabel and do you consider your
music Christian music?

Speaker 4 (38:17):
I absolutely loved the label.
When I was obsessed with theearly Jesus music and Christian
rock, and while Kemper wasbuilding the legacy of Archangel
and Starsong and all of thatdown here in the Houston area, I
was up in Illinois listening tothose records and just sitting
in my bedroom listening toArchangel and listening to the

(38:38):
vigil and Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
He's a lot younger than I am.

Speaker 4 (38:42):
Ten years exactly.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
How did yours pass cross?

Speaker 4 (38:48):
I guess it was basically through the King's X
guys because they had gottentheir.
They were from SpringfieldMissouri where I went to college
and I had met them when I wasdoing music and going to school
in Springfield Missouri we'repart of the same music scene up
there went to the same churchand then they came down here and

(39:09):
they got signed to MegaforceAtlantic and they were working
with Wild Silas Music Works,which is really about three
blocks from here.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
Oh really, I was actually wondering where that
was at when I was in the book.

Speaker 4 (39:21):
It's like three blocks from here.
Cool, I came down here with aband.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
It's called Love in Gray, which was a great band, by
the way.

Speaker 4 (39:28):
Are there recordings?
I appreciate that.
Not of the good stuff, it's not.
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Their, their, their life stuff was much.
I mean, I liked their recordingstuff, but I really liked their
life stuff.

Speaker 4 (39:44):
I was down here and they were having like a an album
release party, and so everybodywas there and the producer,
their record, sam, he said hey,frank, there's someone I think I
think you want to meet, and atthe time I had long black hair

(40:05):
and looked a little bit like avampire.
I was reading Anne Rice, I meanand he took me over to another
guy who had long black hair andwas dressed all in black and
also looked like he probably wasreading some Anne Rice.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
I was.

Speaker 4 (40:24):
Anyway, the classics Sam said so, frank, this is
Kemper Krab.
That was it, and I said KemperKrab like the Kemper Krab and
Kemper being who he is as well,I mean a Kemper Krab.
Anyway, I didn't know that hisdad was also named Kemper Krab,
so that probably informed why hesaid that.
Yes.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
That's how he met and I did.
I invite you to church.

Speaker 4 (40:49):
Yeah.
So at that point we had beenplaying around Houston as Love
in Gray and what my songs arecryptic theology.
They have been for a long time.
So people would come up to meand they would ask me about the
lyrics, what are you talkingabout?
And I would say well, you know,if you want to talk about the
lyrics, we get together onSunday afternoons and over at my

(41:13):
apartment, and so I kind of hada little house church of just
people that I met playing inclubs.
We had about 25, 30 people thatwould come to my apartment, my
wife and I's apartment, and wedid that on Sunday afternoons.
Well, Kemper was a minister at achurch, Christ Church and he

(41:36):
probably invited me to church.
Also, Sam came to my littlehouse church a couple of times
this is Sam Taylor, yeah.
And he said so what are youdoing with this house church
thing?
Because you're trying to do amusic career and you got this
little house church thing going,what are you doing?
And he said I think what youneed to do is you need to take

(41:57):
your whole entire house churchand just go to Kemper's church.
So we did so.
We showed up one Sunday becausethey also met on Sunday
afternoon.
Because we were a bunch ofnight owls, we all played late
shows.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
And so these issues typically are.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:16):
Interesting we met at that time.
The church met at Lutheran HighNorth.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
That's right, I forgot.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
That's not going to intersect for a while, but
that's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
A seed was planted way back then.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
I've forgotten that.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
That's interesting.
So really you all started withmore of a friendship bond and
then the musician thing kind ofdeveloped.

Speaker 4 (42:38):
Oh yeah.
So then now we're eatingKentucky Fried Chicken after
church and Kemper and I aresitting there talking and I told
you that I was reading AnneRice, but other than Anne Rice
and the Bible, I'd really neverread a book.
And so he's asking me whatauthors I'm into, and so I
really don't read anything otherthan the Bible.
And he's like, oh, we're goingto change that.

(42:58):
And he started throwing booksat me.
He still does, so I like toread now.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Kemper, I'm not as familiar with your family
background growing up, socomparing contrast a little bit
for me guys.
I mean, frank, I know fromreading Joy Ride you had a tough
beginning, at least compared toyou know a lot of people.
You had some challenges growingup and you talk about that a
lot in your book Joy Ride, whichobviously has informed a lot of
who you are and your faith asyou've grown too over the years.

(43:30):
Kemper, did you come from achallenging background or were
you kind of growing up in thechurch?
What was yours?
Just so I can get a sense.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
It wasn't as weird as Frank's.

Speaker 4 (43:42):
Well, you come from educated people.
Yeah, so that's a differenceright there, both my parents
were educators.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah, Now my dad did practice magic.

Speaker 3 (43:51):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Interesting and repented.
When the Jesus movement thingkind of came to our area he
publicly repented and he becamea missionary and stuff like that
.
But really I had a reallyexcept for the occasional demon,
a really stable family,especially after my dad repented

(44:12):
.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
My background was not nearly so riven with the
hassles and so forth as Frank's,and I was more or less taken to
church all the time.
I became a Christian when I was11.
So you know it was verydifferent from Frank's.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
I think, yeah, and that's kind of my sense.
So that's why I wanted to askthat, because it's kind of
interesting that you all bonded.
I mean, besides the musicfactor, of course, did you sense
some of that?
Did you learn some of thatabout Frank early on and did
that kind of help?

Speaker 2 (44:47):
I didn't know any of that stuff about his background,
I just liked him.
And at the time Frank neverchanged his expression, which I
especially liked, you know.
I mean just didn't change theexpression, which I liked a
great deal.
And so did Ryan Bursinger, whoplayed in Tom MacArthur with us
later, but no, I just liked him.

(45:07):
I liked the way he thoughtabout stuff.
I loved his music, you know,and I just liked him.
I mean we were friends, I guessfrom then on, even when I, you
know, wasn't playing with him oranything which didn't come till
later.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
Frank, talking a little bit about your background
again.
What was that like growing up,especially now as you kind of
reflect back from this point intime?
And how did those experiencesof your life prompt you to write
joyride?
Why was that important for youto write, just kind of your life
story up till 2006 or so, Iguess?

Speaker 4 (45:43):
Is it?
I mean?
I say that it's just me sharingthe gospel with people and
using myself as theillustrations.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
I like that.

Speaker 4 (45:54):
I'm just the illustration for all of my
points and it's not ablow-by-blow account of my life,
but it does kind of follow myfaith and it follows a beginning
and every end.
So that idea comes from theidea that God is always

(46:15):
preparing us for our nextadventure in whatever we're
facing now.
So what is he?
He was always preparing me forsomething.
He was always preparing me forthat next thing.
He still is.
Another possible title for thebook would be Almost Successful.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
That's close.
I've always believed it.

(47:06):
I even see it.
I'm not hard to confuse.
A twist of a secret is just outof reach.
It's where I'm going to.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
I'm not just here to breathe and make a guide.
How did the Tomahkoper comeabout?

Speaker 4 (47:51):
So we moved down here with Love and Gray.
And the reason we moved downhere was there was a drummer
named Alan Doss.
He was a good friend of mine.
I met him right at the momentthat he graduated high school
and he was in my college band.
It was called Fire Escape, sowe were playing high schools and
roller rinks and the occasionalclub at first, and that's what

(48:14):
the fire escape.
And then he came down here andhe convinced me that if we were
going to have success in music,that I should move out of
Missouri and come to Houstonwith the hope that we would work
with the Wild Silas MusicProduction Company.
So he was our drummer.

(48:36):
And then there was anotherguitar player, eric, and the
three of us were Love and Gray.
We came down here, we did thatand we were doing okay, this was
the band that Kemper would comeout and see, and that's when we
became friends and it was.
I mean, I really liked it, butnobody would sign us.
Hold on one second, let's seeif we can let that train go by.

(48:59):
What's wrong with the sound oftrains, man?
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
I like that.
Alan would love it.
He'd be telling us what kind itwas.

Speaker 4 (49:07):
Just from the whistle .

Speaker 1 (49:09):
My dad loved trains too.
As we paused for the train togo by, conversation continued,
touching briefly on influentialChristian rock bands and their
albums, in particular one DanielAmos.

Speaker 4 (49:22):
I really love when they are obsessed with the
Beatles.
That's my favorite, Daniel Amosstuff, yeah, yeah, motorcycle.
I don't know.
Is that a Beatles obsessedrecord?
It is.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
That's one of their you know later more famous ones.
I've been going back throughthe early stuff again, but yeah,
motorcycle and I don't know ifCalhoun had a little bit of
Beatles vibe too?

Speaker 4 (49:45):
I guess it does.
I started with horrendous discand I think it went into the
next one, and so it doesn'tstart off very Beatles, but it
gets very Beatles before therecord's over.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
What about so much of the stuff?
you guys probably have opinionson.
You know a lot of the.
You know the remastered stufftoday.
That's really you know, becausea lot of the Christian music
they don't have the mastersanymore.
I know, like Star Song at leastI've heard the rumors.
They often, you know, once theywere bought out by secular
labels.
A lot of the masters were justtrashed or ditched or lost or
whatever.
So when they remaster a lot ofthis it's going back to a vinyl

(50:18):
album or a CD master of somesort and then remastering it
from there.
What's your opinion on some ofthat stuff that's really
remastered for these digitaldistribution means rather than
they're getting better at it?

Speaker 4 (50:31):
Yeah, they like the way records sound in the late
70s and then they startedrunning the recording, just the
audio.
It didn't sound good anymore.
In about the mid-80s theyinvented, they discovered and
invented digital reverb and Ididn't like a recording for 10

(50:52):
years.
Yeah, there's just so many badrecordings.
It kind of seems like everyformat had like the thing that,
ooh, we can do this now, so thenthey overdid it.
Yeah, and it seems like they'rekind of figuring out no, just
let it sound warm.
It seems like they're figuringthat out.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
You guys have both been in different bands, worked
together with a lot of differentartists and musicians.
What are some of the challengesand what are some of the joys
of collaborating with otherfellow creatives?

Speaker 4 (51:22):
fellow musicians.
Honestly, I think that we'relike two people that that's not
really our thing.
Really, we are very much like.
We do what we want to do theway we want to do it Right.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Yeah, you know, my philosophy is get people around
you that you trust what they doand tell them generally what you
want to do, and it normallycomes out good.
But I don't think we have muchhassle in doing that.

Speaker 4 (51:53):
Neither one of us are really jam band people.
We don't really like to sit inand jam like that, right, that's
not what we enjoy.
We like to create something, tovery deliberately write it and
make it shape it into what it'sgoing to be.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Yeah, I totally agree with that.

Speaker 4 (52:11):
All arrangements, whether they're going to be
performed live or whether we'recrafting it in the studio.
We know what we want and we dothat.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
What's the writing process for you?
Is it lyrics first, music firstand then?
How do you meld those two?
What's that process like?

Speaker 2 (52:27):
I think it works both ways Sometimes, you have a
lyric or a part of a lyric inyour head and it just falls into
some sort of musical expression.
Sometimes you write a melody orwhatever and then you fill it
in with lyrics.
I don't really have a.
The only thing I think of isthere are times when I can't

(52:49):
think what to do and I kind offree associate stuff.

Speaker 4 (52:53):
Sometimes I have lyric ideas and I'll just write
out lyrics to other people'ssongs or to songs that I've
already written.
Other times I have music ideasand I'll record just a little
snippet of this or a littlesnippet of that or a little
chord progression.
I always have a keyboardsitting up on my desk or have a
guitar that I can grab so that Ican just keep little snippets

(53:17):
of things.
So then I kind of have twopiles I've got a pile of music
ideas and I've got a pile oflyric ideas and sometimes songs
show up fully formed andsometimes I just make myself
write the whole thing in my headbefore I ever try to play it.
That's an interestingexperience.
Three days of darkness waswritten that way.

(53:38):
We begin again was written thatway.
Sometimes it's just go with avisceral feeling.
Joyride was written that way.
There was no thought withJoyride, it just happened.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
The end.
Right now I am broken, that isfor sure.
Some days I'm not quite asfocused, yet I only know that I
don't know.
Die high.

(54:57):
When I am in the right groove,die high.
It's all that I can do.
Some days are the last days,some days are the first.

(55:20):
Some people die for hunger yeah.
Some people live for thirst.
Die high.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
When I am in the right groove, die high.
Was that one of the mostrequested?

Speaker 4 (55:45):
Yes, I think it was one that Derek Schulman
particularly liked.
He actually insisted that weuse the demo on the final record
, that's right.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
I was just reading that, Talking about that writing
process you mentioned in yourbook, New Dreams was one of your
first, as you say, real songsthat you wrote.
How did that process developfor you?
How did you grow as a musician?

Speaker 4 (56:08):
and lyricist I'm going to blur your categories a
little bit.
Sure, I think that's a huge,the thing that he really helped
me with as a friend, as asongwriter, as an influence.
He came to see my band all thetime Firescape but those were
Keith Green songs, those werePetra songs, those were me

(56:31):
preaching through rock musicsongs.
And Doug said hey, have youever like maybe not so much just
like shove the answer at people, but maybe just kind of inside
a question, like just make themthink of it and then maybe
they'll arrive at the conclusion?
So that was Doug.
So, like Doug was, he said Ireally love your lyrics, I love

(56:54):
your songs, but they're sopreachy and I can't get past
that and I would really like,I'd love to know what would
happen if you just kind of letit be a little more poetic, a
little more abstract.
So then here comes the next 20years, wow.
And then more poetic and moreabstract.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
Speaking of Doug and of course you mentioned the
King's X crew before.
You have a good associationwith them or have over the years
.
You mentioned one way, but howwas Doug influential for you and
your development as an artist?

Speaker 4 (57:24):
Well, there was the thing that I just told you.
And then also he loves to playmusic for people.
He has.
At the time he had 17 millionalbums just lining his walls in
his apartment, so I would justgo over there and he would just
play.
He's so excited he would justhe'd play one song after another
song after another song, stuff.

(57:44):
I'd never heard just all thisobscure stuff.
So that was fun.
Like I said, we went to churchtogether, this tiny little
church in Springfield, missouri,and I actually became closer
friends with Jerry the drummer,and his wife Grace.
And Jerry is a poet.
Like he just writes thiscomplete beat poetry stuff.

(58:07):
Just we would riff on that andjust talk philosophy all night.
And then, interestingly, whenwe moved to Texas, my wife and I
became like real close with Tyand his wife, ty and Tamer.
So I've kind of ran the atdifferent seasons of my life
I've been close to the differentpeople and I've probably

(58:29):
sustained my friendship withDoug the most we're still.
We still talk.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
Yeah, that's awesome, and I know Kemper obviously has
been a kind of a mentor for youtoo, in ways.

Speaker 4 (58:40):
Oh, absolutely so.
Like I said, I hadn't readanything but the Bible and and
Rice.
When I met him and I thinkthat's literally true and he
started, he wanted to talk to meabout my songs, about my lyrics
, and he's like who are youreading?
Where's this stuff coming from?
It's like it's not coming fromanywhere.
So then we started talkingabout all this stuff.

(59:02):
My approach to thinking becamemuch more theological after I
met Kemper, and I'd already goneto school to be a pastor and a
missionary, so like.
But after meeting Kemper,that's really when my education
for a theological framework ofapproaching life Art, music,

(59:26):
friendship, everything thatthat's all Kemper.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
Hey.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
So how did this band come to be and what has that
experience been like for you?
Because that was something youwanted to do early on was to be
in a successful band and, at thesame time, share the gospel.

Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
I think that's true.
What I wanted to do is I wantedto share the gospel and I
wanted to do that through music,because music had informed me,
it had formed me and I wanted tobe able to do that for other
people.
Music had made me considerthings deeply and I wanted to

(01:01:09):
provoke other people to the samekind of experiences.
So that's what I wanted to do.
Love and Gray was doing that,love and Gray.
I was the bass player in Loveand Gray.
I was a lead singer and I was abass player.
I liked Love and Gray.
I thought Love and Gray wasgreat, but nobody was interested
in picking us up, except forMetal Blade.
Metal Blade, they definitelywanted to pick us up, but that

(01:01:32):
was a little small.
It wasn't the scale that we werehoping to go for Gotcha, we
ended up on Metal Blade, yeah,so I knew what I was talking
about.
I mean, the scale of MetalBlade is, yes, you get to make a
record, end of story, got it.
That's just how that works out,right?
Yeah, and I wanted to do more.

(01:01:53):
I wanted to do all the things.
I wanted to stand up in frontof people and share this message
and this music with a wideaudience.
I wanted to be on the roadforever.
I wanted that to never end.
So that's what I was hoping for.
Anyway.
So nobody would touch Love andGray, and Sam asked me if I

(01:02:13):
would be interested in startingfresh.
So that's where the idea ofstarting a new band with new
people came from.
The other guys in Love and Grayalso were not believers.
He thought that was going toend up being a big problem for
me.
Eventually, Yep might have, Idon't know, but I do know that
we ran the course and we had noother options on the table.

(01:02:36):
We could keep playing aroundHouston as Love and Gray.
We could have done that, or wecould try this new thing that
somebody wanted to put theirshoulder behind.
So we did that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
How'd the name come about?
Atomic Opera.

Speaker 4 (01:02:48):
Well, have you ever been in a session where you're
trying to come up with a namefor something?
It doesn't matter what you'retrying to name, so at first you
just throw out some names and ohokay, I brought some names,
Maybe Kemper brought some andTim has some names, and so
nobody likes them.
But everybody has some ideas.
And then you start riffing onnames and now everything sounds

(01:03:08):
like a name and it's justridiculous.
So you're going to nameyourself the ridiculous pants
band.
Everything is a name,everything is stupid.
But then you just keep writingdown all the ideas.
And somebody had saidunderground opera as a potential
band name, somebody else hadsaid Atomic Eve and I said

(01:03:32):
Atomic Opera, and then we did250 more names because nobody
liked that either.
But we came back to it.
I know I was sitting in churchthe next day at Christ Church.
Once we had the little chapelthere in the Heights.
I was sitting next to DougPinnock and he handed me a note.
He whispered in my ear.

(01:03:53):
He said this should be the nameof your band and it was
poundhound, like nope, but itwas the name of his band.
He did it.
He used that later.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
I was just looking at one of those albums too.

Speaker 3 (01:04:07):
That's very cool.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
Well, if Frank ain't gonna use it, then I'll use it.

Speaker 4 (01:04:14):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
Exactly All right.
So then you get to bake for MadMen only.
What was that experience likeand how do you feel about that?
Your initial album.

Speaker 4 (01:04:27):
It was an amazing experience, so we got to do
everything.
It was at Rivendell recordersthat we mentioned earlier, which
was a beautiful studio.
It was all designed to kind oflook like Rivendell, so it was
something else.
Does that still exist?
Nope, no, it was a real budget,and we were able to spend a

(01:04:50):
month going to work and justmaking the best record we could
make.
It was great, are you?
proud of that it was a greatexperience Proud of that album?
Yeah, I am.
There's always things, there'salways things.
My biggest regret on thatrecord I'm just gonna ruin the
record for you ready was we hadit mixed.

(01:05:11):
We liked the way it sounded andI didn't want it to have the
King's Egg sound, which is a lotof top end on the bass.
And I said, no, I've got a tarplayer, jonathan Marshall.
He's the top end on the bass,like him and Jonas.
They create that wall of soundthat Doug does with his 12

(01:05:31):
string bass.
They do that, but it takes twopeople to do it.
So then the record label cameback and they said no, no, no,
it's got to have that Houstonsound, it's got to have that top
end on the bass.
And so they remixed it and IJonas's playing didn't lend to
that.
And what sounded great when wehad sort of a classic, you know

(01:05:54):
round tone, p-bass, grand Funk,railroad kind of sound, that was
great.
But then when you start addingall this high end every now and
then you hear this woodblocksound and it's just so annoying
because it wasn't there.
It wasn't there and it's notJonas's fault.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Yeah, Favorite song of that album For me.

Speaker 4 (01:06:16):
Yeah, I mean, you have kids.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4 (01:06:21):
How many kids you have Two.
Which one's your favorite?
Ah, good point, probably NewDreams.
That's the one that just kindof came together music and
lyrics and it had someinteresting philosophical ideas
that could lead to goodconversation, which is what the
music's all about for me and atthe same time I thought it just

(01:06:41):
kind of came together.

Speaker 1 (01:07:20):
Justice, which also was the first music video y'all
shot as a band.
Is that correct?

Speaker 4 (01:07:26):
Yeah, that's true Also.
So half of For Mad Men Only waswritten after we got signed.
Like half the record waswritten with us showing up at a
little rehearsal space writingsongs on purpose.
Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:07:41):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4 (01:07:42):
So we wrote a lot of those things as a band,
including Justice.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
All right, Penguin Dust, which initially had a
controversial cover, is thatright I?

Speaker 4 (01:07:52):
guess.
I guess.
I mean, my wife went to thebeach with our godson and she
was taking pictures and had thisreally cute picture of our
godson playing on the beach andI thought, man, that make a cool
cover.
Anyway, at the CornerstoneMusic Festival some guy was

(01:08:13):
running around ripping all ourposters down, came and threw
them in my face.
Oh, you're kidding.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
How was Penguin Dust kind of the next step up for
Atomic Opera?

Speaker 4 (01:08:25):
We had written a lot of those songs during the
pre-production for For Mad MenOnly, so a bunch of these were
songs that were purposely goingto be on the second record.
But then we lost our dealbecause the company folded while
we were on the road and thatwas painful.

(01:08:47):
And then my band they didn'twant to continue without a deal.
What's the point?
So then it was just me, and soKemper and Ryan, they came over
and we just made the record, andMark Jerry Gaskell actually
originally played drums on thatrecord on Penguin Dust, but then

(01:09:10):
a digital malfunction and thetracks didn't work.
So we find this out when we'remixing.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
I forget.

Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
Yeah, and Mark Poindexter, atomic Opera's
drummer from the first record.
He just happened to be in townand so I said why don't you come
by the studio?
We had written the songstogether so he knew the songs.
So he just showed up, playedall of them just in one bang out
session.
So pretty cool, fantastic.

(01:09:42):
And Kemper, he's all over thatrecord.
So Penguin Dust is really thefirst record that Kemper is
officially in the band Mandolinsinging and.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
So how did you come to be part of the band?
Did they ask you or you justkind of developed?

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
At the time I was playing with Kademan's call.

Speaker 4 (01:10:04):
Who were also on the record.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
Yeah, and Frank was like well, you know, I'm the
only guy here and everything hesaid what would you think about?
I said, well, that'd be great.
So I mean, there were gigs thatwe did.
I think we did one opening forthe call, wasn't it?

Speaker 4 (01:10:20):
Michael Bean, michael Bean.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
And it was just me and Frank.
I had a Mandolin, he had hisguitar, and Tomic Opera was two
people, wow.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
So we've kind of got a mini-Atomic Opera reunion here
today?

Speaker 4 (01:10:35):
Sure, absolutely, and we have one every Sunday, if
that's the case.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
Atomic Opera.
Apples and Oranges is kind of aI'm sorry, what Apples, which
is not really an official albumper se.
It's kind of a collection ofsome things that had already
been recorded or produced, orcorrect me on that.

Speaker 4 (01:10:54):
It's an official album.
Okay, apples and Oranges.
Oh, I'm sorry, alpha andOranges.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
Which is of course a play my bad.

Speaker 4 (01:11:01):
It's, of course, a play on Apples and Oranges.
Those are all songs that wererecorded for from admin, only
that we didn't use.
That's what it was Okay, but no, I think it makes a nice album
yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
I've only listened to that one a little bit, so I
apologize.
And plus, my eyes are notworking well today.
Atomic Opera's Gospel Cola it'sstill the latest one you've put
out, correct, I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:11:28):
So yeah, atomic Opera yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:31):
This is actually the first one I started listening to
.
And tell me what that one'sabout.

Speaker 4 (01:11:37):
I mean for sure.
The title song, Gospel Cola,comes from the idea of a little
bit of a criticism of the CCM.
The criticism is that too muchof it was just packaged to sell
to Christians at Biblebookstores and it wasn't a true

(01:11:59):
expression of anybody's.
It's not something they reallywanted to say musically or
lyrically, it's just somethingthey thought somebody else would
wanna listen to.
That is so much the opposite ofanything that Kemper and I are
about at all.
It's like we're gonna dosomething because we love it and

(01:12:20):
because we have it to saymusically, lyrically.
We're not doing this for anyoneelse and that's propaganda or
cola, I don't know.
It's just, it's not.
It's not a make something thatyou like for your own reasons,

(01:12:41):
have something to say that isinteresting to you, tell jokes
that you think are funny.
So it was a criticism of that.
But that's just, I don't know.
That's just really one song onthe record.

Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
Right, I love doxology too, and Jesus Junk
opening track.
It's great, great one tokickstart it off.
I love that one a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:13:01):
Jesus Junk is the gospel cola song.
That is the one.
Yes, I love that.
The bridge by some lyrics ofKemper's.
The bridge in that because hegoes to the more medieval idea
of the propaganda the thigh boneof the saint, you know the
whole thing where they weredoing relics.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
If it summed up your atomic opera experience, what
does that mean to you?

Speaker 4 (01:13:26):
I mean, atomic opera is an artful expression of a
hard rock band and I thinkthat's a perfect platform for
poetry and the message of anangry prophet.
I just think that's the perfectplatform for that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
Is atomic opera done?

Speaker 4 (01:13:44):
I don't think so Okay good.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
["will I Wake Up From this Sleeping Dream"].
["will I Wake Up From thisSleeping Dream"].

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):
Will I wake up from this sleeping dream?
Will I wake up from thissleeping dream?
Dragon smoke rings, motherreach for me, scratching shadows

(01:14:30):
on my childhood sleep.
An endless opening.
What may be will be On me.
Mercy on me.
On me, mercy on me, mercy on me.

(01:14:55):
On me, mercy, sleep for sevenyears, afraid of my dreams,

(01:15:17):
angry voices.

Speaker 1 (01:15:19):
You've gone on, of course, and done some solo work
since then too Human Liturgy,which that first track, again
kind of like Kemper'sReliquarium I've been listening
to on repeat too I really loveand you're gonna have to help me
, because I know this is fromthe Bible but Ifafa, ifafa,
thank you I love that track.

(01:15:39):
Oh my gosh, that one's been onrepeat for me now too.
Human Liturgy, great, greatalbum too.
Thanks.
What are your thoughts on themusic industry today from your

(01:16:24):
perspectives, where you standnow as artists who've had, you
mean?
the Christian, yeah, I guesslet's say the Christian music
industry, since that's kind ofagain that label that gets
applied.

Speaker 2 (01:16:33):
I don't know.
I think it's more like theghetto than it's ever been.
Really how so?
Because it's collapsed intoitself.
It used to at least try toconvince itself that it was
reaching the world, that it wasdoing evangelism, but it's not

(01:16:54):
about that anymore.
I mean, there's certainly aplace for legitimate worship
music to be written in acontemporary form, and I think
that's fine and everything.
But a lot of it is justentertainment for the troops in
the church, which I just thinkit's ghetto music, it's music

(01:17:16):
for the.
Like I said, worship music hasto be that way.
Nobody's going to write worshipmusic, but the Christians,
hopefully.
But the rest of it is I don'tknow.
It seems to me like what GospelCola was about, that it's
people saying stuff that theythink people want them to say,

(01:17:42):
and I just think that's aninsult to the Creator.
Nicely put.

Speaker 4 (01:17:48):
Yeah, it's become a soundtrack for mega churches, or
churches that want to be megachurches, and the lyrics are
what they think people want tohear and sing.
And where is the ache of theartist who actually wants to say
something?
Where's the psalmist who iscrying out to the Lord?
Where is that?

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
Excellent points, guys.
Briefly, I know you all aremore than just musicians.
Just Not to minimize that, whatare some of the other creative
endeavors you guys have been in?
I know you've both writtenbooks.
Of course we've been talkingabout Joy Ride.
I should mention Kemper'sLiberation Front, which he

(01:18:30):
graciously gave me a copy oftoday.
So I look forward to readingthat, but I know from seeing
other reviews online it's a veryintriguing, challenging book
that a lot of people love.
But tell me about again some ofthe other creative endeavors
you guys have been in.
I know you're more thanmusicians.

Speaker 4 (01:18:46):
Don't be afraid of that book.
It is not a challenging book.

Speaker 1 (01:18:49):
Really.

Speaker 4 (01:18:50):
It is a very accessible book.
I mean challenging in a goodway.
That is Kemper's philosophy ofthe church as it exists on earth
, and it's great.
I look forward to reading it.
You'll love it yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19:04):
I hope so.
I did try to write it to whereit would be accessible.

Speaker 1 (01:19:11):
Yeah, what was the inspiration for writing that?

Speaker 2 (01:19:14):
I had been asked if I ever talked to high school or
college kids and I said yeah.
And so they said, well, we wantyou to come to do a week to
this Baptist church fromArkansas.
And they said, if you could dothat, what would you do it on?

(01:19:35):
I said I'd do it onecclesiology.
And they said really.
And I said yeah.
I said you know, I said there'splenty of ways to know how to
get saved and all that kind ofstuff like that.
But why you should get saved iskind of missing in the equation
.
And I said I think that peopleget very excited if they know

(01:19:57):
what the church really is.
So then I went and taught thatand it was an unbelievable
response to that for these kids.
And they went back and taughtit to their church and their
church erupted in some sort ofrevival.
And then I got asked to do itanother place and I thought,
well, I guess I'll write thisdown.
That's the long and short of it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:20):
I look forward to reading.
It Sounds very, very good.
Anything, any other creativeendeavors that you guys want to
talk about, of course.

Speaker 4 (01:20:27):
I have other books that I need to write.
I write a sermon every Sunday.
True, that's a creativeendeavor.
Yes, it is Podcast.
I've got this podcast that Ipick up now and then throughout
the year.
Right now it's called FrankThoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:20:48):
I love it.
That's a very Frank,appropriate title to you.
One would think, yes, frankly,let's talk about that.
What are you guys doing today?
What are you involved in?
How did you end up in theLutheran church?

Speaker 4 (01:21:03):
I had a video production company for a while
doing very similar things towhat you do.
Tim Right and a church out herein Katie called Crosspoint was
looking to buy land and build onthat land and they hired my
company to make a video aboutwhy they wanted to do it, to
sell it to their congregationand to sell it to the investors.

(01:21:24):
So I made their video and whenthey came over to my office to
look at cuts and to do somevoiceovers and do other things
that you do, we were gearing upto do some medieval Christmas
concerts.
I gave them a Kemper Krabmedieval Christmas CD and they

(01:21:44):
liked it and then we played amedieval Christmas concert at
Crosspoint that year and thenext year and the next year.
And then they were always doingspecial songs and I think they
were doing a Pete Townsend songand they contacted Kemper and
asked if he would come frontthat song and he did.
And then a few weeks later theywere doing a U2 song and they

(01:22:07):
asked Kemper to come front itagain and he goes.
Eh, I don't know if I couldpull off Bono, but Frank could.
So then I went out and sangwhere the streets have no name.
It went well, and they hired meto be their music guy and then
I was there for 11 years.

Speaker 1 (01:22:23):
And I remember interviewing you for a video
during that time.
Yeah, probably that was 15years ago or something.

Speaker 4 (01:22:29):
That's how I became LCMS Lutheran and then Kemper
was one of the people thatsuggested to me that I might
consider planting a church forlots of reasons, and I said I'll
think about that.
Would you be interested indoing it with me?
And he did, and he is, and wedo.

Speaker 1 (01:22:48):
Fantastic.
So what's that like today, guys, you know what's happening in
church and why is this somethingyou both you know.

Speaker 2 (01:22:56):
Thousands, save mains heal.
Four or five got the baptism.
No, I don't know, I'm justmessing.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
Why is this important for you?

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
Well, I told Frank that I would only be interested
in coming and doing this and itwas just kind of a pro forma
kind of statement on my partbecause he already knew this.
So I said I only interested indoing it if it's not funny,
baloney stuff like goes on inmost churches, lcms not, was

(01:23:29):
standing.
I mean just generally speakingand of course I knew it wasn't
going to be that way that itwould be.
I think the word everybody goesfor is transparent and not have
to pretend to be somebody elsewhen you get in the pulpit In
front of the congregation oryour counseling people or

(01:23:51):
whatever.
And I think in many ways thatour church has accomplished that
.
It draws a certain type ofperson, people who you know
don't know Jesus from JoJo themonkey boy and hear about it for
the first time in that way andEBOs, evangelical burnouts who
have given up on theinstitutional church, are drawn.

(01:24:14):
So our congregation you knowthe core of it of course were
people who came over with Frankwhen he started the church, who
were already established, youknow Lutheran believers and
stuff like that.
But that was a little core andit's growing and continuing to
grow with people who are outsidethe normal pale, I think of who

(01:24:38):
ends up joining churches.

Speaker 4 (01:24:41):
Yeah, I mean, we have a vision for what we want the
church to be eventually, andthat's not where we are.
And so I'm just frustrated thatwe're not where we ultimately
want to be, but I'm verythankful for where we are and
what God is allowing us to donow too.
And we just baptized an entirefamily last week Wow, beautiful.

(01:25:02):
Just all the time people arecoming in and they really they
have not heard the message ofJesus.
See, this is my frustrationthose churches on every corner
and people think they've triedJesus, they think they've tried
the church and it didn't work.
They tried it, it didn't work.
And I just want to say toanyone who is hearing me say

(01:25:26):
that you probably haven't triedJesus, you probably haven't
heard the gospel, and it willchange your life if you do hear
it, if you do listen, if yourepent and believe, it will
change your life and it willgive you hope like you've never
known.
And so that's why we do it Amen.

Speaker 1 (01:25:47):
Creativity and faith.
This show is all about how, foreach of you, is that, as I
described, that intersection ofcreativity and faith, your
talents, why is that soimportant for each of you in
your lives, that combination offaith and creativity?

Speaker 2 (01:26:06):
If you are a creative and you're a Christian, I don't
see any other option.
The foundation of Christianity,of knowing Christ, is living
life as a Christian.
And if you've been made to be acreative, then it seems to me
that it would be an insult tothe God who made you not to
express your creativity, andthere's no other context, if

(01:26:29):
you're a Christian, other thanto be some sort of interaction
between that.

Speaker 4 (01:26:36):
So the idea that I got from Kemper many, many, many
years ago is that God is theCreator and we're all
sub-creators.
We're only creative in as muchas we're reflecting Him as the
Creator.
So if you're going to reflectGod as a believer in God, well

(01:26:56):
part of that worship is going tobe creating things in His
creation.
So, whatever that looks likefor you, do that honestly, Do
that with your voice.
He saved you.
He called you to be Hisdisciple.
He didn't call you to pretendto be some other disciple.
So use the voice that you haveand say the things that you have

(01:27:20):
to say.
And if you do that with fingerpaintings, great.
If you do that with music, cool.
If you do that with humor andjokes, fantastic.
But the world is just, it's allout there.
And so what is creativity?
Again, stealing all this fromKemper, it's telling the truth

(01:27:43):
about the world as we experienceit.
If you reflect the truth aboutthe world, then you can talk
about anything and you canexpress anything.
Just don't lie, Just lyingabout it when it becomes phony
and false and cheese and painful.

Speaker 2 (01:28:02):
It doesn't matter what you do.
I mean I think it's kind of afalse dichotomy Creatives,
non-creatives there's no suchthing as a non-creative.
The question is, how's thecreativity?
If you're a mathematician, youknow, you talk about elegant
equations and so forth.
If you're a scientist, I meanall those kind of things you

(01:28:23):
can't really extricatecreativity from living, any more
than you can extricate beautyfrom the Holy Trinity.
I agree so not to reign on thecalling ourselves creatives,
because it's how we say well,we're artists or whatever.
But really creativity is we'remade in the image of God, and

(01:28:47):
that's pretty creative in itself.

Speaker 1 (01:28:50):
Well, well put.
Kemper, Frank, thank you bothfor talking today and coming on
the show.
I've enjoyed this a lot.
We've gotten into stuff.
There's so much more to talkabout and I know we've gone on a
little bit more at length hereanyway, but I really, really
appreciate the opportunity tosit down and talk with you guys.
This is fascinating.
You've got my brain going.
We might have a song to play usout here.

(01:29:11):
Cool, Thanks guys.
Appreciate it.
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:29:15):
Yeah, this is live without a net, so if you get
stuff wrong, it's all part ofthe experience.
That's true.
Love is only love Song off ofthe human liturgy record and
it's about how love is how wetreat people.
That's what love is.
It's not like mysticaleminitions that just kind of

(01:29:37):
radiate from us to other people,but it's about love is how we
treat people.

Speaker 3 (01:30:03):
It is a deep breath, you only feel it when you
breathe, and it is a deep word.
You only feel it when youbreathe and it is a circular

(01:30:24):
motion.
You only have it when itreturns and it is a raging fire
love.
You only feel it when it burns.
It's not a reason for our life,it's not a feeling.

(01:30:52):
It doesn't mean you cannot feelit, it's not a religious thing.
It doesn't mean you can'tbelieve in it.
We trade our life for it.
Love, you live and die for itto grow.

(01:31:18):
We'll stand and fight for it.
You only hold it if you let go.
We believe that it is themeaning of our life.
Love is everything and love isnothing more than love.

(01:31:47):
Love is only love.
It is not God and love is notromance and love.
You cannot make it love, youcannot fake it.

(01:32:12):
Love is something that we allmust do you love.
We all believe in it.

(01:32:45):
We all have need of it.
We believe that it is thereason for our life.
Love is everything and love isnothing more than love.

(01:33:11):
Love is only Love, is only Love, is only Love, is nothing more

(01:33:38):
than love, is only love, is onlylove.

Speaker 1 (01:33:53):
That does it for this episode of Creative Christians.
My guests today have beenKemper Krab and Frank Hart.
You can find out more aboutKemper and his music at
KemperKrabnet, and more aboutTomik Opera, frank and his solo
work at FrankHartcom, as well asinfo about their church, new
Church at NewChurch, love, love.

(01:34:15):
All this info and more detailswill be available in the show
notes or the description forthis episode.
Thanks for joining us.
Go to Apple Podcasts or yourfavorite podcast distributor.
Be sure to subscribe to catcheach and every new episode.
After listening, take a momentto rate the show.
If you're really feelinggenerous, I'd love it if you

(01:34:35):
left a brief review as well.
Let me and others know what youlike about Creative Christians.
Thank you for all of you whohave already been leaving
feedback and reviews.
It is very much appreciated.
You can also email me directlywith your feedback, comments or
questions at tim at timristocom.
I'd love to hear from you.
I'm Tim Risto.

(01:34:55):
Until next time, stay creativeand stay in God's Word Blessings
.
Creative Christians is producedby yours truly, tim Risto.
Special thanks to my guests,frank Hart and KemperKrab, and
to Memorial Lutheran Church andKatie for graciously allowing us

(01:35:17):
to record in their sanctuary,as always a shout out to my
lovely and supportive wife,tracy Risto.
Creative Christians is an audioproduction of Tim Risto
Productions.
Visit timristocom to learn more.
I'm Tim Ristocom.