January 13, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode of Creative Crossroads, we welcome Amelia Knott, a registered psychotherapist and art therapist based in British Columbia. Amelia shares her rich journey from childhood art experiences to becoming a multifaceted professional encompassing art therapy, content creation, and authorship. Her first book, 'The Art of Thriving Online,' emphasizes navigating the digital space using creativity as a tool for well-being. Amelia discusses her creative process, the importance of focusing on the experience rather than the outcome, and how she incorporates unconventional materials into her work. She also elaborates on art therapy sessions, highlighting the intermodal shift and the importance of process over product. Amelia's insights examine balancing structure and spontaneity in personal and professional creative endeavors.
Find Amelia:
Her website: Art Therapy in Real Life
On Instagram: @art_therapy_irl
Amelia's Book: The Art of Thriving Online (Amelia's Book)
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:55 Amelia's Creative Journey
02:41 Family Influence and Early Art Experiences
04:32 Art Therapy and Professional Path
05:03 Creative Process and Evolution
11:39 Balancing Art and Therapy
14:25 Creative Space and Environment
17:33 Morning Pages and Overcoming Creative Blocks
22:40 of Structure and Community
23:58 Collaboration in Art and Life
26:31 Finding Inspiration Beyond Nature
30:00 The Role of Art Therapy
35:39 Navigating Creative Blocks
40:28 The Art of Thriving Online
44:54 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Thanks for joining us at Creative Crossroads! Keep creating and we'll see you again soon!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Catherine Dutton (00:01):
Hello, and welcome back for another episode
of Creative Crossroads.
Today, I am so excited that wehave the opportunity to talk
with Amelia Knott.
She is a registeredpsychotherapist, art therapist,
artist, content creator, andauthor.
She lives in British Columbia,where she facilitates
Therapeutic art groups, ecourses, and a weekly open
(00:22):
studio.
And she just published her firstbook, The Art of Thriving
Online.
Welcome, Amelia!
Amelia Knott (00:30):
Thank you so much for having me.
I feel like we've spent so muchtime in online spaces together
in silence, not ever having likean hour to really chat.
So I'm excited to really divein.
Catherine Dutton (00:40):
I am too.
I met you through the Oraclelabs that you facilitated
online.
And I just, I loved thatexperience so much.
And I'm really excited to havethe opportunity to talk to you
about creativity and what yousee as the role of creativity in
your life.
And so to get us started, couldyou tell me a little bit about
what creativity plays in yourlife?
Amelia Knott (01:02):
Oh my gosh.
It's the cornerstone ofeverything.
That question almost, almoststuns me.
It feels like everything I do interms of my work, my home life,
like every facet of my life Ithink is defined by the creative
(01:25):
process.
And I mean, I was really luckyas a young child to have a lot
of experiences of art classesand not just the kind of art
classes we might havetraditionally had in elementary
school, middle school.
But I also had this experienceof from five years old to 18
years old, working with anabstract painter.
So every week getting that as akind of Additional education to
(01:51):
what I was learning in school.
So I think my creative processhas really been shaped by
abstraction and improvisation,learning how to look at a
composition, stand back andreally be in conversation with
it.
And.
I mean, that influences myprocess and everywhere
(02:11):
creativity touches today, youknow, whether that's listening
really deeply to what a clientis experiencing and being able
to respond with the right artinvitation or directive to meet
whatever it is they're trying tountangle or whether it's.
looking at like a home decorproject or the mess in my
Tupperware drawer, right?
Being in conversation with thevisual realm, I think is the
(02:33):
foundation of everything I do.
I love that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (02:38):
That's really great that you were encouraged
at such a young age.
So you, did you come from acreative family?
were your parents, your siblingscreative as well?
how did that come about?
Amelia Knott (02:51):
They wouldn't say they are.
I mean, I disagree.
I think everybody is an artist.
My mom.
was a ballet dancer all throughher adolescence and into her
twenties.
And I think while my immediatefamily, no one, I think carried
that capital a artist identity.
I think creativity was woveninto everything, but.
(03:11):
Like, the way that encouragementreally came about, I experienced
some pretty intense grief andtrauma around five years old.
And my mom kind of at a loss forlike, oh my gosh, what do I do
with my young kids?
Found this art class and say,okay, Amelia's, Amelia's got
that.
My twin brother had soccer andsports and the kinds of things
he naturally gravitated toward.
(03:33):
So it really was, you know,Like, how do I keep my kids
busy, engaged, give them apositive, outlet?
and these art classes I tookweren't technically art therapy,
but I think because they werefocused on not just learning the
hard skills or the technicalrendering skills that we might
(03:54):
encounter in a typical artclass, it was really about
understanding color, value,texture, like, Again, being in
conversation with a compositionas this evolving kind of living
being, I had this place in mylife, in addition to language,
right, in addition toconversation to make sense of
things that, I mean, frankly,were senseless.
(04:16):
And I wouldn't have used thatexplanation at the time.
I had a friend who was a painterand liked going to painting
class, but I think that reallygave me this window into how art
and creativity can give us safepassage through the most
challenging experiences of ourlife.
So that also I think was adirect path to what I ended up
doing, which was becoming an arttherapist, getting to use those
(04:38):
skills.
In addition to the clinicalpsychotherapy skills to help
people find their own meaningand find their own healing in
their own authentic way withcreativity.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (04:53):
That's amazing.
And a ballerina is absolutely anartist in my view.
Absolutely.
So you came by it naturally.
So do you think your process asan artist, what does your art
practice look like today?
Was it, was your process formedby that early exposure?
(05:14):
Is it still pretty much thesame?
It's gone through
Amelia Knott (05:19):
a lot of evolution.
So I think early in childhood,kind of before I'm trying to
figure out if I want to use theword indoctrination here, but
before I learned to follow therules, right?
And that's, I think, the placefor many of us where we decide,
Oh, I'm not creative.
I'm not an artist.
I can't draw the fruit bowlaccurately or do whatever is
(05:40):
required to get an A in highschool art.
I think because I went throughmy adolescence with this sense
of like a personal language ofaesthetics and a confidence,
Making marks and and being inthat creative space for myself
that It's always informed theway I engage with other types of
(06:03):
art.
but to kind of zoom back out, Iwas always really creative
through school.
Then I went on to do a Bachelorof Fine Arts at the Maryland
Institute College of Art inBaltimore.
So I moved from Canada toBaltimore when I was 18 and
really thought I was going to bea painter, right?
Really thought that I was goingto go into that realm.
(06:24):
I mean, community arts was alsowhat drew me to that school
specifically, but painting is myfirst love.
Something interesting happenedin that space.
I think if anyone is familiarwith like the structure of art
school, it's a lot of critique,right?
A lot of focus on the technicalskills.
And on one hand, I'm verygrateful to have had four years
(06:45):
to really refine the craft orthe different crafts I like to
create with.
And I also think kind of afterthat, That degree, there was
some unlearning that needed tohappen when I moved into art
therapy school, right?
There's a really different wayof engaging with the art process
in like a fine art degree whereeveryone sits around, looks at
(07:07):
what you've made and tells youwhat could be different or how
it could have been moresuccessful.
And art therapy is.
It's kind of the opposite ofthat.
It's so much more about how theprocess feels and how the
finished product looks.
So I think I had to kind ofreturn to what I innately knew
or was innately taught as a kid,which was, Stepping back from
(07:31):
what good means in art andgetting attuned to what feels
good to make, to become an arttherapist.
And that's still something I'muntangling.
Catherine Dutton (07:41):
I was going to say, how do you do that?
How do you untangle that?
Amelia Knott (07:46):
Oh, it's hard.
I think part of it is you haveto stop giving a shit.
I mean, easier said than done.
it's really hard, especially ifwe're people who sell our arts,
right?
If our income is tied to what wecreate, if, we post it online,
right?
So many of us have learned toshape our creative process
(08:08):
around some external, Valuescale or the metrics of a
successful piece of art has todo with whether or not someone
would buy it, whether or not itwould perform well on social
media, whether it meets,academic, Eurocentric,
capitalistic standard of goodenough, right?
(08:28):
But how we untangle that, Ithink one thing is making art
that we don't show anybody,right?
Making art that is absolutelyjust for ourselves, maybe art
that we don't even keep.
I think another way, and this issomething I do with clients a
lot, if there's thatperfectionism being a barrier to
engaging in the creativeprocess, is creating, creating
(08:50):
circumstances where Perfectionor even doing something well, I
mean, well in air quotes, thereis impossible, right?
So maybe that is drawing yourpainting with your feet,
scrunching up the paper ahead oftime, working with like kids
materials that don't lendthemselves to accuracy.
I think that's a way ofloosening the grip on what we've
(09:13):
learned art should look like.
Getting curious about what aprocess could feel like if the
value wasn't going to come fromwhat it is when it's finished,
but what is actually happeningin the here and now in our
physical and like really sensoryexperience of the process of
making.
Catherine Dutton (09:31):
I love that.
And I feel like in the classesI've done with you, that
actually became an emphasis forme of learning to focus on the
process and not the finalproduct.
And I've loved that.
And I've started to enjoy my arta lot more because of that.
what are some unconventionalthings that you use in your art
(09:52):
or in your creative processes?
Amelia Knott (09:55):
It's a good question.
I'm even looking around, at mymaterials that are sitting
around me.
A lot of kids materials.
Uh, I have a box that just has atape label that says nonsense on
it on the other side of mystudio right now.
Just random things that I couldhot glue to other random things.
There's a set of jars over to myright that's got crayons and
(10:19):
beads.
And I think sometimes it startswith the material.
One of my favorite things in myown process or with clients is
to invite them to look around atthe materials that they have in
front of them and just see whatthey gravitate toward.
And instead of thinking aboutwhat it's going to become,
starting with a material.
(10:40):
So sometimes that is the pile ofreceipts at the bottom of your
purse or something you see inthe kid's toy section of the
dollar store, I think.
There's something really, reallyvibrant about starting with just
what you naturally gravitatetoward even if you don't know
why that is yet and letting thatbe the catalyst for whatever it
(11:03):
becomes and really working inthat spontaneous way.
So I think to answer thequestion, like what
unconventional things do I liketo do?
I think starting with, withmaterial, with the sheer joy of
like, Oh, googly eyes are reallycalling to me today, or pom poms
or buttons.
There's another desk in myoffice that I'm looking at as
well that just has buttonspoured across the entire
(11:27):
surface.
And I don't know exactly whatthey're going to become, but
there was something last nightabout just sorting through them
and seeing how they wanted to belaid out.
That felt really generative.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (11:39):
Do you get enough time to make art
yourself?
Or are you focused mostly onhelping others make art?
Amelia Knott (11:48):
Oh, I think there's never enough time.
I knew it.
That was really the rationalefor starting Anti Hustle Art
Studio.
And that's the group I run twicea week, the drop in group.
I noticed that I was having ahard time making art just for
me.
And because I'm.
I'm making art with clients allday or running groups.
(12:08):
Like a lot of my creativity goesto the work I do with other
people, which means a wonderfuluse of my creativity.
But I also started to noticethat I missed making art that
was just for me, right?
Maybe making paintings in theway I loved as a person in my
early twenties.
So starting that group, Ithought was a way of giving
(12:30):
myself an hour or two hours aweek.
with that gentle accountabilityof knowing like, it's on the
calendar, other people areshowing up and they're going to
also be in the zoom room, right?
That philosophy of body doublingor coworking is so useful for
neurodivergent folks.
So that's been helpful and stillin a facilitation role.
(12:51):
So I think in some ways that isa halfway point between the kind
of art that is really just forme, but.
I'd say yes and no.
I'm, I'm, I'm always makingthings and I wish I had twice
the hours in the day to makemore things.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (13:06):
Right.
And do you work on multipleprojects at a time or are you a
one project, finish it and done?
Amelia Knott (13:13):
I think the easy way to answer that question is
to show that I have ADHD.
So, yes.
Multiple projects all the timeand not always getting finished.
Something I realized.
In my journey of understandingneurodivergence is that the joy
I get from the creative processisn't just the final product.
(13:35):
Sometimes it's being in thatideation phase, like sometimes
I'd like the idea and the kindof startup inertia of a new
project way more than I likefinishing it.
And what if that's okay, right?
What if there's real value in mylife from getting to, to revel
in that new idea, shiny feelingand never finish every project
(13:57):
or most projects even, I thinkthat's probably accurate.
So I think there's a lot ofstuff that is happening in my
studio that gets repurposed orrecycled into other things.
There's a lot of materials andthings kind of in various states
of, creation and entropy, butthere's constantly multiple
things going on.
(14:19):
which always helps me kind ofthink of other ideas as well.
Like it's, it's really kind oforganic that way.
Catherine Dutton (14:25):
You mentioned your studio.
Can you talk a little bit aboutyour creative space and the
environment that you like tocreate in?
Amelia Knott (14:32):
Mm hmm.
Yeah, I'm in my home studioslash office right now.
And what you two can see is kindof the Zoom professional
background, right?
This is where I'll see arttherapy clients online.
I've got A desk in front of methat is a sit down desk, so if I
want some more energy or want tobe in motion while I'm creating,
that's possible.
(14:54):
And then I also have a largertable to my left, um, like just
a big folding table.
So that if I'm, like,facilitating a group and need
some more space, I can be oncamera.
Still.
Holding that facilitation role,but also spreading out.
So this kind of half of myoffice is where the, yeah, the
(15:15):
on camera work tends to happen.
And then my office is kind ofsplit.
And then behind me, there's theMaybe the more private art, the
storage, the projects that I'mmaking that maybe don't end up
related to my work or withclients or, or captured for
social media.
(15:36):
I have a friend who was sayingto me once years ago that, He
has both a desk for doingdigital work, like, this is
where his computer lives, wherehe kind of checks his phone, and
then a desk that was justcompletely analog.
It was for pen and paper.
And I always thought that waskind of an amazing way of
dividing spaces.
I like that.
So I've tried to recreate thatfor myself.
(15:57):
Like, this is where I make artthat, you know, It stays in the
analog realm, and then over hereis where I make art that might
end up related to work or on theinternet at some point.
So having that differentiation,I think it gives me two places
to, to experience my creativeprocess differently.
Catherine Dutton (16:18):
Do you find that when you're creating in
that analog space, do you everfeel like there's more freedom
there or versus the, I know I'mgoing to post this online space.
Does that crush anyone duringthat time?
Amelia Knott (16:34):
Well, I think we naturally edit ourselves.
Something happens to ourcreative process when we're
anticipating the digital gaze,right?
Or if we're working on somethingthat's for a commission or going
into a show or going to be aChristmas gift, right?
We edit ourselves and ourprocess in a different way.
And that doesn't necessarilymean it's a bad thing, but we're
(16:57):
thinking about how somebody elsewould perceive it.
Catherine Dutton (16:59):
Mm hmm.
Amelia Knott (17:00):
It's like the difference between writing
something that's going to bepublished versus just writing
your morning pages in acompletely free writing style,
something different happensthere.
So I think the freedom Iexperience at the analog desk or
in the morning pages is reallyimportant, especially being a
person who's pretty online,right?
(17:23):
my life and my work happens inpublic.
So having that private space, Ithink is really important to
maintaining my wellbeing.
Catherine Dutton (17:32):
That makes a lot of sense.
You mentioned morning pages.
Are you, do you do the artist'sway?
Have you done that?
Yeah, I'm
Amelia Knott (17:41):
a big fan of half ass in the artist's way.
Okay,
Catherine Dutton (17:43):
same.
Amelia Knott (17:45):
Me too.
I wish we were talking aboutthat, right?
Yes.
I think for some people, the, Idon't want to say rigidity, but
the structure of it isbrilliant.
Right?
Yeah.
People do really well with achecklist.
Um, again, I'm a neurodivergentperson.
Consistency is not a gift ofmine, but something magic always
(18:06):
happens when, when I sit down towrite in that style.
Like when I was writing my book,I would often sit down And do
morning pages just to get theball rolling.
And something interesting oruseful would always come out of
it.
But I found it to be a much moreeffective process than sitting
(18:27):
down thinking, Okay, I'm writingabout disinformation on social
media today.
Let's dive into research.
It was actually more effectiveto sit down and just see
whatever wanted to come out inthe writing and then dive into
whatever the task at hand was.
Catherine Dutton (18:45):
There really is something about kind of just
dumping everything that's in mybrain onto those morning pages.
And then, I don't know, it doeshelp channel thinking as you
move throughout the rest of theday.
Amelia Knott (18:58):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (18:59):
Are you a morning page writer, Ellen?
You know, I've gone in phases.
I've gone in phases.
Currently, not so much, butyeah, there have been times in
my life when that's been animportant piece.
Amelia Knott (19:11):
Mm hmm.
I think I'm the same right nowis not a morning pages phase,
but other times really have beenlike, and it kind of just
happens naturally.
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (19:22):
What do you do?
Does that help you if you'vereached a creative block or a,
or you're stuck in your creativeprocess?
What do you do about that?
Amelia Knott (19:34):
I find when I'm stuck in morning pages.
aren't necessarily helpful.
Um, like when I'm in that stuckheadspace, my morning pages
usually sound like a to do list.
I find it's pretty easy to letthose pages just become like a
series of reprimands.
Like I should be doing this.
Like it just becomes me cyclingin my own worry.
But I think one of the mosteffective tools I found for
(19:58):
getting unstuck in those momentsis, I mean, I always use the
same book, honestly.
It's a book of Mary Oliver'spoetry.
I'll often just open it to arandom page.
Slam my finger down on a lineand use that as the prompt for
three pages of free writing andhaving something outside myself
to to start the process Usuallymeans I'm not Entering into,
(20:23):
into that writing with the to dolist or with the anxiety or the
shame of being stuck in myprocess, right?
So, Mary Oliver is, is animportant ally to my creative
process, I think.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (20:35):
That's great.
So, do, do those words, doesthe, does the poetry encourage
your creative process beyondwriting?
What you're doing creatively, isthat informed by words and ideas
or more by visual things?
Amelia Knott (20:52):
I think it goes back and forth.
Uh, I love words.
I love words so much.
If I hadn't gone to art schoolas an 18 year old, I would have
gone to school for creativewriting.
It was really a toss up at thatmoment of my life.
So there's a back and forthbetween making sense with
language, making sense with,with symbols, with shapes, with
(21:13):
color, with With the visual.
So oftentimes.
When I'm trying to make sense ofa piece of art, I might sit back
and write just the observationsor try and describe it.
I think going back and forthbetween different mediums is a
really beautiful way to gaininsight or start to make sense
of what we've experienced in ourcreative process.
(21:34):
And in the art therapy world,that's known as an intermodal
shift.
Right.
Going from maybe I've beenpainting and now I'm gonna write
to make sense of it.
Maybe I've been dancing and nowI'm gonna collage or do
something with my voice torespond.
So I think using differentmodalities to respond to one
another often gives us a littlebit of insight that we might not
(21:59):
have got in that medium we werereally immersed in for the first
part of the process.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (22:03):
Fascinating.
Catherine Dutton (22:04):
That is really neat.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (22:06):
One of the things we've been asking people,
and maybe you have some input inthis, is how you balance
structure and spontaneity inyour creative work.
I knew we've talked a little bitabout the rules and learning,
you know, all the rules and thengoing back to doing what feels
right, instead of whatprofessors might tell you is
(22:29):
right.
That's great.
Do you find that that's a hardbalance, or do you even try?
Amelia Knott (22:37):
I think I don't do it well alone, is the answer.
if left to my own devices,finding structure is
challenging, or at leaststicking to a structure.
I like designing a structure formyself, but again, consistency
is hard.
Right.
But when it comes to creativeprocesses that need my follow
through, I'm thinking about thebook, for example.
(22:58):
Would I have been able to spendthree years?
writing and editing and reediting and promoting a single
project if I didn't have aneditor and a publisher holding
that, uh, that architecturearound me?
I don't think so.
And the same thing goes for, forAnticastle Art Studio.
That grew.
(23:18):
I think I created the structure,but it's the fact that Every
Tuesday evening and Wednesdaymorning, there's a group of
people gathering.
So I think I really need otherpeople.
Whether it's taking a class orknowing I'm going to be
gathering with friends or havingsomething in a calendar or like
having made a financialcommitment, right?
(23:40):
It's, I don't think it'scheating to need, to need
community or to need support,uh, to create structures for
ourselves.
Catherine Dutton (23:49):
I appreciate that.
And it sounds like for you,collaborating with others is
part of that structure creationfor you.
Do you collaborate with othersever, like on the products that
you're creating, on the art thatyou're creating?
Amelia Knott (24:06):
Not very often.
I mean, it's interesting becauseyou've been in the front row to,
to a collaboration.
I, uh, we met in that groupOracle Lab that I ran with
another art therapist, who's adear friend.
And, um, I mean, she's just myfavorite person to collaborate
with.
I love the way her brain worksand her ideas.
(24:26):
And together we were able tocreate something.
And because we have such a flowin the way we communicate with
each other, it was really, itwas really cool to get to, to
build something and holdsomething together.
Yeah.
I truthfully don't do a lot ofthat, at least in this chapter
of my life and my art, a lot ofit is really solitary.
(24:48):
Okay.
Catherine Dutton (24:48):
Okay.
Amelia Knott (24:49):
I'm glad you asked the question, though, because
it's making me realize how muchI miss, working with other
people, sharing the mental loadof creating something.
it goes both ways, though.
I also have really strong ideasabout the way I want things to
unfold.
I mean, an example of that is,In the writing process, I
(25:09):
couldn't imagine anybody elsedoing the visuals for the book.
I really had this resistance tosomebody else designing the
cover, to somebody else decidingon the visual language that
would accompany my ideas.
So, I mean, this is a funnytangent perhaps, but in my
(25:30):
original proposal, I think Isaid, yeah, there's going to be
15 to 20 illustrations.
And At the end there was 180 ofthem that I'd done because I
really just felt so stronglyabout being the one to have
control over the visual and thenarrative.
(25:50):
So it depends.
I think there's a growth edgefor me there around releasing
control on some projects.
I mean, I think I've designed acareer for myself where I don't
need to collaborate on a dailybasis.
I get to really be the one inthe driver's seat.
And I think that's also a recipefor burnout in some ways, right?
(26:11):
Being the only person who isdoing all the different things.
Catherine Dutton (26:16):
So
Amelia Knott (26:18):
I think it's both.
I love collaborating on certainkinds of things, especially
facilitation, and I also reallylike to have the control of
doing it all by myself.
Catherine Dutton (26:29):
I can appreciate that.
I understand.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (26:31):
It sounds like a lot of your inspiration
comes from within your studio,specific materials or things you
see, or do you ever findinspiration outside of your
studio?
What?
What kind of place?
I know a lot of people talkabout walking in nature.
I'm personally not a natureperson.
I know that sounds really bad.
(26:53):
But I don't,
Amelia Knott (26:54):
neither am I.
Okay.
I feel like we're not allowed toadmit that.
No, I heard recently on anotherpodcast.
It's a hard thing to admit.
Yeah, I heard someone describethemselves as outsides y, but
not outdoors y.
Which I resonate with.
Oh, I like that.
Yes.
I, I don't know.
I'm so glad you said thatbecause I'm not a person who
(27:15):
naturally feels safe andcomfortable out in, in nature.
I also live in a part of theworld where there's bears and
cougars and, you know, yeah,some pretty intense, pretty
intense nature out there.
It's a funny thing to, to nothave that be a source of
inspiration when that's such acommon one.
(27:36):
I appreciate nature, but it'snot where I find most of my
inspiration.
Exactly.
Catherine Dutton (27:41):
So where do you find most of your
inspiration?
Amelia Knott (27:45):
Pinterest.
Ooh.
Yeah.
That's one answer.
I think I think my clients, likeone of the places I notice,
ideas flow most easily is, isworking with clients.
So, so an example of what asession normally looks like is,
(28:06):
you know, we might be inconversation, we might be
looking at a piece of art thathe created.
If it's, the kind of client whois making art between sessions,
I'll follow up with, you know,here are three prompts or ideas
to maybe jumpstart a process.
And I noticed that after havingspent an hour or an hour and a
half with someone, you know,talking about their life, I
(28:27):
always leave those interactionsfeeling really lit up with ideas
for how they might explore andexpress.
So I think I really, yeah, takeinspiration from imagining the
possibilities for how we mightsort something out or explore
something within ourselvesvisually.
(28:48):
Uh, like it really does astoundme how that moment, maybe even
At the end of a really long dayor after having spent a lot of
time in focused conversationwith someone that the ideas
really flow in that moment, butotherwise clothing, um, like
getting dressed is one of thegreat joys of my life.
(29:11):
I love, I love color and patternand texture and, and humor.
I think, I think my style of artis also very tied to the things
that just, Bring levity.
yeah, I think, I think that's myanswer.
And I mean, I know I saidPinterest at the beginning, but
(29:34):
you know, my algorithm has beentrained To serve me back humor
and color and fiber and textureand all of those things.
I mean, I know that curation isdone with a platform success in
mind, but it also is neat tohave a place and have this
(29:55):
technology that I use that knowsthe kind of things that I'm
going to be excited to look at.
You
Catherine Dutton (30:01):
know, I went to diverge just a little bit
because you are an arttherapist.
If you wouldn't mind talkingabout a little bit just what art
therapy looks like and how that,how creativity can help in the
therapeutic process or in atherapeutic setting.
Amelia Knott (30:17):
Absolutely.
I mean, and maybe it would beuseful to talk about like really
what sessions or the processlooks like.
Yeah.
because we've been talking a lotabout like the personal creative
process, but the work is prettydifferent actually.
So I work only online withclients.
Sessions are 60 or 90 minutes.
(30:37):
People can make art during thesession.
People can make art betweensessions, depending on, yeah,
depending on what feels rightfor them.
Usually it will also be thatdance between conversation,
words, and then moving into thevisual.
So I'll often give a prompt andI think people are often
(30:59):
surprised when I share how vaguethose prompts are,
Catherine Dutton (31:04):
um,
Amelia Knott (31:05):
like compared to the projects I might post on, on
social media, which are veryspecific with a specific outcome
in mind.
When it comes to client work,I'm usually trying to give
something as open ended aspossible, because Um, and I
think that having someone's owninternal sense of what they want
to make or how they want to makeit is going impactful than
(31:25):
something I could instruct orimagine for them.
So oftentimes also that lookslike someone working completely
spontaneously, choosing amaterial, like I'll really
encourage someone to explore anddecide for themselves what they
think would be useful to makein, in a certain moment or given
(31:47):
a conversation we're having.
But, Kind of zooming out usuallywhat the process as a whole
looks like is we'll, we'llgather, get to know each other,
get to know what like the goalsor intentions are for our work
together.
And.
work through that with, withart.
They'll make something and thenwe'll have a conversation about
(32:10):
what they're seeing, whatthey're noticing.
And that's really where the artpsychotherapy training comes in
and how it's different from aclass or other kinds of
modalities.
Art therapists have a master'slevel training in psychotherapy.
The process of, I mean, howcertain projects are given and
also how we talk about the art.
It's pretty specific.
Um, and there's, yeah, some,again, there's some pretty
(32:32):
specific ways that arttherapists are trained to do
that.
So there's again, this dancebetween Making and then
conversation about the piecelooking for looking for the
meaning in it.
And then something I'll often doafter eight, 10 sessions or
after we've been workingtogether for a certain amount of
time is we'll do an art review.
(32:54):
So I'll take all the picturesthat they've sent of their art
and make a slideshow or putthings in a digital whiteboard,
right?
We'll have some way of lookingback at everything they've
created.
And that's always a reallyamazing process because.
First of all, people oftenforget something they've made,
but they're also seeingeverything they've done over the
past couple of months in onespace.
(33:17):
And it just, it blows my mindthe way they'll pick out themes.
Like, oh my goodness, I didn'trealize I was using this shade
of blue from the beginning.
Or, oh wow, there's been a realchange in the quality of my line
work.
It feels bolder or moreconfident now.
And having those visualartifacts From every step of the
process is just a reallytangible reminder of the change
(33:42):
process that happens, which isharder to capture in talk
therapy truthfully, right, toactually look back and see what
the progress has been in arttherapy.
You have the artifacts showingit to you.
Catherine Dutton (33:52):
You have an actual visual artifact, which I
think could be really powerfulto see.
Do you ever have clients who areinterested in art therapy, but
they're like, but I, I don't,but I'm not creative.
I don't make art.
Amelia Knott (34:07):
Absolutely.
And how does that work?
People often come to art therapybecause they're feeling that
tension.
Maybe they feel drawn to dosomething creative, but feel
that resistance and want to workthrough it.
And what we'll do is we'll startwith things that they might not
have assumed were creativity,right?
(34:28):
We'll kind of bring theexpectations down and try to
have some experiences of.
It's just engaging with materialin a way that, again, is really
about how the process feels, nothow the product looks.
So, I mean, an example of that,uh, this is something I've done
a lot with, with clients who areexperiencing that block, or not
(34:50):
feeling creative, is we'll grabten pieces of printer paper.
And spend, 10, 20 minutesripping, crumpling, doing
something different with everysingle piece of paper.
And we could call thatsculptures, we could call that
just experimenting.
And then looking at the 10sculptures and, okay, which one
of these feels like you today?
(35:12):
Why?
What do you notice about it?
So even using something thattakes, like, no degree of skill
and starting to view it throughthe lens of, like, what
metaphors might come through inthis, what observations am I
making, which actual physicalmotions of engaging with a paper
felt good or felt bad, right?
There's so much information thatcan come from working with art
(35:33):
materials that has nothing to dowith what it becomes in the end.
Catherine Dutton (35:39):
how do you navigate when you have, like,
challenges?
Whether it's working with aclient or with yourself, where
you go, I don't know what to dowith this.
I don't know how to move itforward anymore.
Amelia Knott (35:51):
I think that's where the art is, is really
useful because it's like a thirdpresence in the therapy room.
There's this concept in arttherapy called chevery triangle,
right?
It's not just the art or notjust the client and the
therapist.
There's the triangle of theclient, the therapist, and the
(36:13):
artwork in conversation, kind ofin three directions.
So I find when there's thosemoments of stuckness, we can
turn back to look at what'sbeing made, and it gives us just
a little bit more information.
So oftentimes, I mean, I'lladmit when I'm feeling stuck and
not sure what to ask next, or ifthere's kind of an awkward
(36:34):
moment, I'll say, okay, givenwhat we've just explored and
might reiterate some of ourconversation, looking back now
at the art, do you see anythingnew?
Like we can kind of turn to theart and see if it has anything
to add to the conversation.
And normally it does, right?
Mm
Catherine Dutton (36:51):
hmm.
I really.
I'm so fascinated by theemphasis on the process, but not
just the process of making theart, but the meaning that we're
attributing to the art.
And so, and as you, whether it'sas you're making the art or as
you're talking about itafterwards, like, it sounds like
a lot of connections can be madefor people during that
(37:15):
verbalization process.
Amelia Knott (37:17):
Hugely.
Absolutely.
I mean, and that's also wherethe danger comes from.
And that's why art therapiststraining is really important.
We know that memory and traumalive in the visual sides of our
brain.
And I mean, not just negativeexperiences, but it's really
possible when someone isactivating, uh, the creative and
(37:41):
visual sides of themselves, thatthey'll make things that
surprise them, right?
In a conversation, when we'respeaking out loud, we generally
know what we know.
I mean, sometimes you'll saysomething and surprise yourself,
but conversation is reallyworking the cognitive, the
analytical, and then Whensomeone's in an art process,
(38:01):
they're making tons of decisionsthat they might not be conscious
of.
And then when you step back,sometimes it can be confronting
or really surprising what hascome out.
I think, I mean, more often thanI can count, I've had
experiences with my own art orwith clients where I've stood
back and been like, Oh mygoodness, I have represented
(38:23):
something that reminds me ofthis or looks like that.
It's not necessarily that, youknow, a symbol has been hidden.
in the work, but the way yourbrain makes those connections
can be really revealing.
And, you know, this is why itwouldn't be necessarily a safe
or, appropriate intervention toask somebody to represent their
(38:45):
trauma.
Right.
Right.
Because that could be a really,really activating process.
It might not be, um, a safer,appropriate process to work with
a really fluid or uncontainedmaterial if someone is working
on feeling safe and secure.
There's a lot of differentconsiderations around the
materials we choose or how wedecide to work with them.
(39:08):
To enter into a process and whatwe decide to represent that I
think needs to be reallycarefully held, but the
potential for someone to makemeaning in something they've
made is is huge and something mysite or and something my my
clinical supervisor often saysis that it's impossible to make
something that isn't alreadytrue within us.
(39:30):
So when someone, say, isnoticing, like, a sense of
lightness, a sense of hope, asense of confidence in their
work, that came from insidethem, right?
We can't bring something intothe world creatively if it
doesn't exist within us already.
I love that.
Catherine Dutton (39:48):
That was beautiful.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (39:49):
Now, this has been fascinating.
I, it, it strikes me andespecially today, since this is
what you do, art therapy, but Ithink each one of these
conversations that Catherine andI have had with different
artists, I've come away feelingthat kind of inspiration and I'm
learning something from, fromeach person that we talk with.
(40:11):
And so thank you for sharing allof those insights with us.
Really been great.
Amelia Knott (40:17):
Oh, I mean, such a delight to be here and I feel
like finally have a two sidedconversation as well, especially
because we spent so much timetogether in groups.
Catherine Dutton (40:28):
Can you tell us a little bit about your book
and how that can help peoplewith their creative process and
while they're living in anonline world?
Amelia Knott (40:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, something that's reallyimpacted my work, my
relationships, my creativeprocess over, gosh, the past
five years now is, It's digitalspace, right?
I graduated from art therapyschool into the beginning of the
pandemic and my work wentcompletely online.
(40:58):
I also moved to a really ruralpart of British Columbia and the
internet really is the thingthat made, made my work and
relationships possible.
The positive side of that is theconnective potential, the
inspiration.
Okay.
I really love the internet.
(41:19):
The internet is how we met.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And.
And it's, it's a place thatisn't designed with our
psychological well being inmind.
So a lot of like my journey andwhat has informed my practice
over the past five years hasbeen thinking about how we hold
this paradox of living in aworld that is, you know,
(41:40):
increasingly reliant on digitaltools.
How do we balance the parts thatare really genuinely good,
meaningful, inspiring, lifeaffirming, and the parts that
are incredibly damaging?
And I think because I'm an arttherapist, I'm always looking
for the creative ways that wecan address that question and,
(42:02):
and hold ourselves in thosereflections.
So the book I've written, TheArt of Thriving Online, really
is about how we might use artand writing to grapple with what
it means to choose to stayonline.
Because for so many of us, it'shard.
It doesn't really feel like achoice anymore.
Yeah.
I think if I could choose to beoffline, I might mm-hmm But I
(42:25):
don't know how to do that givenwhere I live, the work I do,
where the people I love are inthe world.
Right.
I really feel stuck being onsocial media and being online.
So instead of living with thissense of shame or pushing back
against the fact that it feelslike a necessity, I'm really, in
(42:45):
my own life, especially investedin the question of how.
Art might be an ally tonavigating that and even
collaborating with digitalspace.
So to get, to get practical, thebook is divided into chapters
that explore attention, uh,productivity, that urgency we
experience online comparison,right?
(43:06):
A comparison we feel looking atother people's art or lives on
social media.
Um, fear, anger, disinformation,right?
The way.
Social media platforms aredesigned to evoke our most
activated negative emotions andthen place fear or sorry place,
(43:27):
uh, body belonging.
So there's writing, there'sresearch in each chapter, and
then it's also a workbook.
So there's reflection questionsbuilt right in there.
The idea really is to takepeople through their own
creative process so that theycan author their own definition
of what time well spent onlinecould mean.
(43:50):
I don't have the answers.
I don't have a list of hacksthat will make being on social
media better for everybody,right?
I can't prescribe that.
Everybody is so different andhas a different relationship
with.
Art with technology, but thereal intention of the art of
thriving online is that peoplecan discover their own visual
language, make sense of theirown evolving relationship with
(44:13):
technology and come up withtheir own definition of what
wellness could mean and use artto do that.
Right?
Catherine Dutton (44:20):
Yeah, that's actually, that's one of the
things I really liked about thebook as I was going through it
was this emphasis on art.
My experience rather than youtelling me what the experience
should be because so many booksdo that which Sometimes I want
them to tell me what to do, butonly but in this case, it's so
personal it really does help youreflect and think about how can
(44:44):
I be intentional in theseactions?
or what do I want out of thesetypes of interactions And the
illustrations in the book are sofun.
I love them.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (44:54):
So how can everyone get their hands on it?
Amelia Knott (44:57):
You can find it wherever you like to buy books.
it's on the big websites.
It's available through mypublisher, Sounds True.
Uh, you can also find it throughyour local bookstore, your local
library, but it's the art ofthriving online, creative
exercises to help you staygrounded and feel joy in the
world of social media.
(45:17):
And that's it.
It's also available in audiobook.
If that's how you like toconsume information, um, and
ebook as well, we really madesure that the audio version felt
valuable.
So we tailored some of theprompts to also use voice and
sound, uh, just to make surethat That it as a workbook is
accessible, whether you'reengaging with it on paper or
(45:39):
listening to it.
Catherine Dutton (45:40):
I love that.
I wondered how it translated toaudio.
So I love hearing that it was athoughtful translation.
So awesome.
I will be sure to include a linkto it in the show notes as well,
so that people can find it.
Well, Amelia, it has been apleasure to chat with you.
And, um, I feel like I havetaken away so many nuggets today
that I'm going to have to thinkabout and process a little bit
(46:03):
more, but it has been a delightto talk with you.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (46:06):
Thanks for joining us on Creative
Crossroads, everyone.
We hope you'll come back andenjoy some more down the road.
Have a great day.
Amelia Knott (46:15):
Thanks so much.
Yeah, I hope to see peoplearound the internet make art
with you at some point, but itwas really special to get to be
here in conversation with bothof you.
Catherine Dutton (46:23):
Thank you so much.
Hello, and welcome back for another episode
of Creative Crossroads.
Today, I am so excited that wehave the opportunity to talk
with Amelia Knott.
She is a registeredpsychotherapist, art therapist,
artist, content creator, andauthor.
She lives in British Columbia,where she facilitates
Therapeutic art groups, ecourses, and a weekly open
(00:22):
studio.
And she just published her firstbook, The Art of Thriving
Online.
Welcome, Amelia!
Amelia Knott (00:30):
Thank you so much for having me.
I feel like we've spent so muchtime in online spaces together
in silence, not ever having likean hour to really chat.
So I'm excited to really divein.
Catherine Dutton (00:40):
I am too.
I met you through the Oraclelabs that you facilitated
online.
And I just, I loved thatexperience so much.
And I'm really excited to havethe opportunity to talk to you
about creativity and what yousee as the role of creativity in
your life.
And so to get us started, couldyou tell me a little bit about
what creativity plays in yourlife?
Amelia Knott (01:02):
Oh my gosh.
It's the cornerstone ofeverything.
That question almost, almoststuns me.
It feels like everything I do interms of my work, my home life,
like every facet of my life Ithink is defined by the creative
(01:25):
process.
And I mean, I was really luckyas a young child to have a lot
of experiences of art classesand not just the kind of art
classes we might havetraditionally had in elementary
school, middle school.
But I also had this experienceof from five years old to 18
years old, working with anabstract painter.
So every week getting that as akind of Additional education to
(01:51):
what I was learning in school.
So I think my creative processhas really been shaped by
abstraction and improvisation,learning how to look at a
composition, stand back andreally be in conversation with
it.
And.
I mean, that influences myprocess and everywhere
(02:11):
creativity touches today, youknow, whether that's listening
really deeply to what a clientis experiencing and being able
to respond with the right artinvitation or directive to meet
whatever it is they're trying tountangle or whether it's.
looking at like a home decorproject or the mess in my
Tupperware drawer, right?
Being in conversation with thevisual realm, I think is the
(02:33):
foundation of everything I do.
I love that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (02:38):
That's really great that you were encouraged
at such a young age.
So you, did you come from acreative family?
were your parents, your siblingscreative as well?
how did that come about?
Amelia Knott (02:51):
They wouldn't say they are.
I mean, I disagree.
I think everybody is an artist.
My mom.
was a ballet dancer all throughher adolescence and into her
twenties.
And I think while my immediatefamily, no one, I think carried
that capital a artist identity.
I think creativity was woveninto everything, but.
(03:11):
Like, the way that encouragementreally came about, I experienced
some pretty intense grief andtrauma around five years old.
And my mom kind of at a loss forlike, oh my gosh, what do I do
with my young kids?
Found this art class and say,okay, Amelia's, Amelia's got
that.
My twin brother had soccer andsports and the kinds of things
he naturally gravitated toward.
(03:33):
So it really was, you know,Like, how do I keep my kids
busy, engaged, give them apositive, outlet?
and these art classes I tookweren't technically art therapy,
but I think because they werefocused on not just learning the
hard skills or the technicalrendering skills that we might
(03:54):
encounter in a typical artclass, it was really about
understanding color, value,texture, like, Again, being in
conversation with a compositionas this evolving kind of living
being, I had this place in mylife, in addition to language,
right, in addition toconversation to make sense of
things that, I mean, frankly,were senseless.
(04:16):
And I wouldn't have used thatexplanation at the time.
I had a friend who was a painterand liked going to painting
class, but I think that reallygave me this window into how art
and creativity can give us safepassage through the most
challenging experiences of ourlife.
So that also I think was adirect path to what I ended up
doing, which was becoming an arttherapist, getting to use those
(04:38):
skills.
In addition to the clinicalpsychotherapy skills to help
people find their own meaningand find their own healing in
their own authentic way withcreativity.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (04:53):
That's amazing.
And a ballerina is absolutely anartist in my view.
Absolutely.
So you came by it naturally.
So do you think your process asan artist, what does your art
practice look like today?
Was it, was your process formedby that early exposure?
(05:14):
Is it still pretty much thesame?
It's gone through
Amelia Knott (05:19):
a lot of evolution.
So I think early in childhood,kind of before I'm trying to
figure out if I want to use theword indoctrination here, but
before I learned to follow therules, right?
And that's, I think, the placefor many of us where we decide,
Oh, I'm not creative.
I'm not an artist.
I can't draw the fruit bowlaccurately or do whatever is
(05:40):
required to get an A in highschool art.
I think because I went throughmy adolescence with this sense
of like a personal language ofaesthetics and a confidence,
Making marks and and being inthat creative space for myself
that It's always informed theway I engage with other types of
(06:03):
art.
but to kind of zoom back out, Iwas always really creative
through school.
Then I went on to do a Bachelorof Fine Arts at the Maryland
Institute College of Art inBaltimore.
So I moved from Canada toBaltimore when I was 18 and
really thought I was going to bea painter, right?
Really thought that I was goingto go into that realm.
(06:24):
I mean, community arts was alsowhat drew me to that school
specifically, but painting is myfirst love.
Something interesting happenedin that space.
I think if anyone is familiarwith like the structure of art
school, it's a lot of critique,right?
A lot of focus on the technicalskills.
And on one hand, I'm verygrateful to have had four years
(06:45):
to really refine the craft orthe different crafts I like to
create with.
And I also think kind of afterthat, That degree, there was
some unlearning that needed tohappen when I moved into art
therapy school, right?
There's a really different wayof engaging with the art process
in like a fine art degree whereeveryone sits around, looks at
(07:07):
what you've made and tells youwhat could be different or how
it could have been moresuccessful.
And art therapy is.
It's kind of the opposite ofthat.
It's so much more about how theprocess feels and how the
finished product looks.
So I think I had to kind ofreturn to what I innately knew
or was innately taught as a kid,which was, Stepping back from
(07:31):
what good means in art andgetting attuned to what feels
good to make, to become an arttherapist.
And that's still something I'muntangling.
Catherine Dutton (07:41):
I was going to say, how do you do that?
How do you untangle that?
Amelia Knott (07:46):
Oh, it's hard.
I think part of it is you haveto stop giving a shit.
I mean, easier said than done.
it's really hard, especially ifwe're people who sell our arts,
right?
If our income is tied to what wecreate, if, we post it online,
right?
So many of us have learned toshape our creative process
(08:08):
around some external, Valuescale or the metrics of a
successful piece of art has todo with whether or not someone
would buy it, whether or not itwould perform well on social
media, whether it meets,academic, Eurocentric,
capitalistic standard of goodenough, right?
(08:28):
But how we untangle that, Ithink one thing is making art
that we don't show anybody,right?
Making art that is absolutelyjust for ourselves, maybe art
that we don't even keep.
I think another way, and this issomething I do with clients a
lot, if there's thatperfectionism being a barrier to
engaging in the creativeprocess, is creating, creating
(08:50):
circumstances where Perfectionor even doing something well, I
mean, well in air quotes, thereis impossible, right?
So maybe that is drawing yourpainting with your feet,
scrunching up the paper ahead oftime, working with like kids
materials that don't lendthemselves to accuracy.
I think that's a way ofloosening the grip on what we've
(09:13):
learned art should look like.
Getting curious about what aprocess could feel like if the
value wasn't going to come fromwhat it is when it's finished,
but what is actually happeningin the here and now in our
physical and like really sensoryexperience of the process of
making.
Catherine Dutton (09:31):
I love that.
And I feel like in the classesI've done with you, that
actually became an emphasis forme of learning to focus on the
process and not the finalproduct.
And I've loved that.
And I've started to enjoy my arta lot more because of that.
what are some unconventionalthings that you use in your art
(09:52):
or in your creative processes?
Amelia Knott (09:55):
It's a good question.
I'm even looking around, at mymaterials that are sitting
around me.
A lot of kids materials.
Uh, I have a box that just has atape label that says nonsense on
it on the other side of mystudio right now.
Just random things that I couldhot glue to other random things.
There's a set of jars over to myright that's got crayons and
(10:19):
beads.
And I think sometimes it startswith the material.
One of my favorite things in myown process or with clients is
to invite them to look around atthe materials that they have in
front of them and just see whatthey gravitate toward.
And instead of thinking aboutwhat it's going to become,
starting with a material.
(10:40):
So sometimes that is the pile ofreceipts at the bottom of your
purse or something you see inthe kid's toy section of the
dollar store, I think.
There's something really, reallyvibrant about starting with just
what you naturally gravitatetoward even if you don't know
why that is yet and letting thatbe the catalyst for whatever it
(11:03):
becomes and really working inthat spontaneous way.
So I think to answer thequestion, like what
unconventional things do I liketo do?
I think starting with, withmaterial, with the sheer joy of
like, Oh, googly eyes are reallycalling to me today, or pom poms
or buttons.
There's another desk in myoffice that I'm looking at as
well that just has buttonspoured across the entire
(11:27):
surface.
And I don't know exactly whatthey're going to become, but
there was something last nightabout just sorting through them
and seeing how they wanted to belaid out.
That felt really generative.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (11:39):
Do you get enough time to make art
yourself?
Or are you focused mostly onhelping others make art?
Amelia Knott (11:48):
Oh, I think there's never enough time.
I knew it.
That was really the rationalefor starting Anti Hustle Art
Studio.
And that's the group I run twicea week, the drop in group.
I noticed that I was having ahard time making art just for
me.
And because I'm.
I'm making art with clients allday or running groups.
(12:08):
Like a lot of my creativity goesto the work I do with other
people, which means a wonderfuluse of my creativity.
But I also started to noticethat I missed making art that
was just for me, right?
Maybe making paintings in theway I loved as a person in my
early twenties.
So starting that group, Ithought was a way of giving
(12:30):
myself an hour or two hours aweek.
with that gentle accountabilityof knowing like, it's on the
calendar, other people areshowing up and they're going to
also be in the zoom room, right?
That philosophy of body doublingor coworking is so useful for
neurodivergent folks.
So that's been helpful and stillin a facilitation role.
(12:51):
So I think in some ways that isa halfway point between the kind
of art that is really just forme, but.
I'd say yes and no.
I'm, I'm, I'm always makingthings and I wish I had twice
the hours in the day to makemore things.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (13:06):
Right.
And do you work on multipleprojects at a time or are you a
one project, finish it and done?
Amelia Knott (13:13):
I think the easy way to answer that question is
to show that I have ADHD.
So, yes.
Multiple projects all the timeand not always getting finished.
Something I realized.
In my journey of understandingneurodivergence is that the joy
I get from the creative processisn't just the final product.
(13:35):
Sometimes it's being in thatideation phase, like sometimes
I'd like the idea and the kindof startup inertia of a new
project way more than I likefinishing it.
And what if that's okay, right?
What if there's real value in mylife from getting to, to revel
in that new idea, shiny feelingand never finish every project
(13:57):
or most projects even, I thinkthat's probably accurate.
So I think there's a lot ofstuff that is happening in my
studio that gets repurposed orrecycled into other things.
There's a lot of materials andthings kind of in various states
of, creation and entropy, butthere's constantly multiple
things going on.
(14:19):
which always helps me kind ofthink of other ideas as well.
Like it's, it's really kind oforganic that way.
Catherine Dutton (14:25):
You mentioned your studio.
Can you talk a little bit aboutyour creative space and the
environment that you like tocreate in?
Amelia Knott (14:32):
Mm hmm.
Yeah, I'm in my home studioslash office right now.
And what you two can see is kindof the Zoom professional
background, right?
This is where I'll see arttherapy clients online.
I've got A desk in front of methat is a sit down desk, so if I
want some more energy or want tobe in motion while I'm creating,
that's possible.
(14:54):
And then I also have a largertable to my left, um, like just
a big folding table.
So that if I'm, like,facilitating a group and need
some more space, I can be oncamera.
Still.
Holding that facilitation role,but also spreading out.
So this kind of half of myoffice is where the, yeah, the
(15:15):
on camera work tends to happen.
And then my office is kind ofsplit.
And then behind me, there's theMaybe the more private art, the
storage, the projects that I'mmaking that maybe don't end up
related to my work or withclients or, or captured for
social media.
(15:36):
I have a friend who was sayingto me once years ago that, He
has both a desk for doingdigital work, like, this is
where his computer lives, wherehe kind of checks his phone, and
then a desk that was justcompletely analog.
It was for pen and paper.
And I always thought that waskind of an amazing way of
dividing spaces.
I like that.
So I've tried to recreate thatfor myself.
(15:57):
Like, this is where I make artthat, you know, It stays in the
analog realm, and then over hereis where I make art that might
end up related to work or on theinternet at some point.
So having that differentiation,I think it gives me two places
to, to experience my creativeprocess differently.
Catherine Dutton (16:18):
Do you find that when you're creating in
that analog space, do you everfeel like there's more freedom
there or versus the, I know I'mgoing to post this online space.
Does that crush anyone duringthat time?
Amelia Knott (16:34):
Well, I think we naturally edit ourselves.
Something happens to ourcreative process when we're
anticipating the digital gaze,right?
Or if we're working on somethingthat's for a commission or going
into a show or going to be aChristmas gift, right?
We edit ourselves and ourprocess in a different way.
And that doesn't necessarilymean it's a bad thing, but we're
(16:57):
thinking about how somebody elsewould perceive it.
Catherine Dutton (16:59):
Mm hmm.
Amelia Knott (17:00):
It's like the difference between writing
something that's going to bepublished versus just writing
your morning pages in acompletely free writing style,
something different happensthere.
So I think the freedom Iexperience at the analog desk or
in the morning pages is reallyimportant, especially being a
person who's pretty online,right?
(17:23):
my life and my work happens inpublic.
So having that private space, Ithink is really important to
maintaining my wellbeing.
Catherine Dutton (17:32):
That makes a lot of sense.
You mentioned morning pages.
Are you, do you do the artist'sway?
Have you done that?
Yeah, I'm
Amelia Knott (17:41):
a big fan of half ass in the artist's way.
Okay,
Catherine Dutton (17:43):
same.
Amelia Knott (17:45):
Me too.
I wish we were talking aboutthat, right?
Yes.
I think for some people, the, Idon't want to say rigidity, but
the structure of it isbrilliant.
Right?
Yeah.
People do really well with achecklist.
Um, again, I'm a neurodivergentperson.
Consistency is not a gift ofmine, but something magic always
(18:06):
happens when, when I sit down towrite in that style.
Like when I was writing my book,I would often sit down And do
morning pages just to get theball rolling.
And something interesting oruseful would always come out of
it.
But I found it to be a much moreeffective process than sitting
(18:27):
down thinking, Okay, I'm writingabout disinformation on social
media today.
Let's dive into research.
It was actually more effectiveto sit down and just see
whatever wanted to come out inthe writing and then dive into
whatever the task at hand was.
Catherine Dutton (18:45):
There really is something about kind of just
dumping everything that's in mybrain onto those morning pages.
And then, I don't know, it doeshelp channel thinking as you
move throughout the rest of theday.
Amelia Knott (18:58):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (18:59):
Are you a morning page writer, Ellen?
You know, I've gone in phases.
I've gone in phases.
Currently, not so much, butyeah, there have been times in
my life when that's been animportant piece.
Amelia Knott (19:11):
Mm hmm.
I think I'm the same right nowis not a morning pages phase,
but other times really have beenlike, and it kind of just
happens naturally.
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (19:22):
What do you do?
Does that help you if you'vereached a creative block or a,
or you're stuck in your creativeprocess?
What do you do about that?
Amelia Knott (19:34):
I find when I'm stuck in morning pages.
aren't necessarily helpful.
Um, like when I'm in that stuckheadspace, my morning pages
usually sound like a to do list.
I find it's pretty easy to letthose pages just become like a
series of reprimands.
Like I should be doing this.
Like it just becomes me cyclingin my own worry.
But I think one of the mosteffective tools I found for
(19:58):
getting unstuck in those momentsis, I mean, I always use the
same book, honestly.
It's a book of Mary Oliver'spoetry.
I'll often just open it to arandom page.
Slam my finger down on a lineand use that as the prompt for
three pages of free writing andhaving something outside myself
to to start the process Usuallymeans I'm not Entering into,
(20:23):
into that writing with the to dolist or with the anxiety or the
shame of being stuck in myprocess, right?
So, Mary Oliver is, is animportant ally to my creative
process, I think.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (20:35):
That's great.
So, do, do those words, doesthe, does the poetry encourage
your creative process beyondwriting?
What you're doing creatively, isthat informed by words and ideas
or more by visual things?
Amelia Knott (20:52):
I think it goes back and forth.
Uh, I love words.
I love words so much.
If I hadn't gone to art schoolas an 18 year old, I would have
gone to school for creativewriting.
It was really a toss up at thatmoment of my life.
So there's a back and forthbetween making sense with
language, making sense with,with symbols, with shapes, with
(21:13):
color, with With the visual.
So oftentimes.
When I'm trying to make sense ofa piece of art, I might sit back
and write just the observationsor try and describe it.
I think going back and forthbetween different mediums is a
really beautiful way to gaininsight or start to make sense
of what we've experienced in ourcreative process.
(21:34):
And in the art therapy world,that's known as an intermodal
shift.
Right.
Going from maybe I've beenpainting and now I'm gonna write
to make sense of it.
Maybe I've been dancing and nowI'm gonna collage or do
something with my voice torespond.
So I think using differentmodalities to respond to one
another often gives us a littlebit of insight that we might not
(21:59):
have got in that medium we werereally immersed in for the first
part of the process.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (22:03):
Fascinating.
Catherine Dutton (22:04):
That is really neat.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (22:06):
One of the things we've been asking people,
and maybe you have some input inthis, is how you balance
structure and spontaneity inyour creative work.
I knew we've talked a little bitabout the rules and learning,
you know, all the rules and thengoing back to doing what feels
right, instead of whatprofessors might tell you is
(22:29):
right.
That's great.
Do you find that that's a hardbalance, or do you even try?
Amelia Knott (22:37):
I think I don't do it well alone, is the answer.
if left to my own devices,finding structure is
challenging, or at leaststicking to a structure.
I like designing a structure formyself, but again, consistency
is hard.
Right.
But when it comes to creativeprocesses that need my follow
through, I'm thinking about thebook, for example.
(22:58):
Would I have been able to spendthree years?
writing and editing and reediting and promoting a single
project if I didn't have aneditor and a publisher holding
that, uh, that architecturearound me?
I don't think so.
And the same thing goes for, forAnticastle Art Studio.
That grew.
(23:18):
I think I created the structure,but it's the fact that Every
Tuesday evening and Wednesdaymorning, there's a group of
people gathering.
So I think I really need otherpeople.
Whether it's taking a class orknowing I'm going to be
gathering with friends or havingsomething in a calendar or like
having made a financialcommitment, right?
(23:40):
It's, I don't think it'scheating to need, to need
community or to need support,uh, to create structures for
ourselves.
Catherine Dutton (23:49):
I appreciate that.
And it sounds like for you,collaborating with others is
part of that structure creationfor you.
Do you collaborate with othersever, like on the products that
you're creating, on the art thatyou're creating?
Amelia Knott (24:06):
Not very often.
I mean, it's interesting becauseyou've been in the front row to,
to a collaboration.
I, uh, we met in that groupOracle Lab that I ran with
another art therapist, who's adear friend.
And, um, I mean, she's just myfavorite person to collaborate
with.
I love the way her brain worksand her ideas.
(24:26):
And together we were able tocreate something.
And because we have such a flowin the way we communicate with
each other, it was really, itwas really cool to get to, to
build something and holdsomething together.
Yeah.
I truthfully don't do a lot ofthat, at least in this chapter
of my life and my art, a lot ofit is really solitary.
(24:48):
Okay.
Catherine Dutton (24:48):
Okay.
Amelia Knott (24:49):
I'm glad you asked the question, though, because
it's making me realize how muchI miss, working with other
people, sharing the mental loadof creating something.
it goes both ways, though.
I also have really strong ideasabout the way I want things to
unfold.
I mean, an example of that is,In the writing process, I
(25:09):
couldn't imagine anybody elsedoing the visuals for the book.
I really had this resistance tosomebody else designing the
cover, to somebody else decidingon the visual language that
would accompany my ideas.
So, I mean, this is a funnytangent perhaps, but in my
(25:30):
original proposal, I think Isaid, yeah, there's going to be
15 to 20 illustrations.
And At the end there was 180 ofthem that I'd done because I
really just felt so stronglyabout being the one to have
control over the visual and thenarrative.
(25:50):
So it depends.
I think there's a growth edgefor me there around releasing
control on some projects.
I mean, I think I've designed acareer for myself where I don't
need to collaborate on a dailybasis.
I get to really be the one inthe driver's seat.
And I think that's also a recipefor burnout in some ways, right?
(26:11):
Being the only person who isdoing all the different things.
Catherine Dutton (26:16):
So
Amelia Knott (26:18):
I think it's both.
I love collaborating on certainkinds of things, especially
facilitation, and I also reallylike to have the control of
doing it all by myself.
Catherine Dutton (26:29):
I can appreciate that.
I understand.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (26:31):
It sounds like a lot of your inspiration
comes from within your studio,specific materials or things you
see, or do you ever findinspiration outside of your
studio?
What?
What kind of place?
I know a lot of people talkabout walking in nature.
I'm personally not a natureperson.
I know that sounds really bad.
(26:53):
But I don't,
Amelia Knott (26:54):
neither am I.
Okay.
I feel like we're not allowed toadmit that.
No, I heard recently on anotherpodcast.
It's a hard thing to admit.
Yeah, I heard someone describethemselves as outsides y, but
not outdoors y.
Which I resonate with.
Oh, I like that.
Yes.
I, I don't know.
I'm so glad you said thatbecause I'm not a person who
(27:15):
naturally feels safe andcomfortable out in, in nature.
I also live in a part of theworld where there's bears and
cougars and, you know, yeah,some pretty intense, pretty
intense nature out there.
It's a funny thing to, to nothave that be a source of
inspiration when that's such acommon one.
(27:36):
I appreciate nature, but it'snot where I find most of my
inspiration.
Exactly.
Catherine Dutton (27:41):
So where do you find most of your
inspiration?
Amelia Knott (27:45):
Pinterest.
Ooh.
Yeah.
That's one answer.
I think I think my clients, likeone of the places I notice,
ideas flow most easily is, isworking with clients.
So, so an example of what asession normally looks like is,
(28:06):
you know, we might be inconversation, we might be
looking at a piece of art thathe created.
If it's, the kind of client whois making art between sessions,
I'll follow up with, you know,here are three prompts or ideas
to maybe jumpstart a process.
And I noticed that after havingspent an hour or an hour and a
half with someone, you know,talking about their life, I
(28:27):
always leave those interactionsfeeling really lit up with ideas
for how they might explore andexpress.
So I think I really, yeah, takeinspiration from imagining the
possibilities for how we mightsort something out or explore
something within ourselvesvisually.
(28:48):
Uh, like it really does astoundme how that moment, maybe even
At the end of a really long dayor after having spent a lot of
time in focused conversationwith someone that the ideas
really flow in that moment, butotherwise clothing, um, like
getting dressed is one of thegreat joys of my life.
(29:11):
I love, I love color and patternand texture and, and humor.
I think, I think my style of artis also very tied to the things
that just, Bring levity.
yeah, I think, I think that's myanswer.
And I mean, I know I saidPinterest at the beginning, but
(29:34):
you know, my algorithm has beentrained To serve me back humor
and color and fiber and textureand all of those things.
I mean, I know that curation isdone with a platform success in
mind, but it also is neat tohave a place and have this
(29:55):
technology that I use that knowsthe kind of things that I'm
going to be excited to look at.
You
Catherine Dutton (30:01):
know, I went to diverge just a little bit
because you are an arttherapist.
If you wouldn't mind talkingabout a little bit just what art
therapy looks like and how that,how creativity can help in the
therapeutic process or in atherapeutic setting.
Amelia Knott (30:17):
Absolutely.
I mean, and maybe it would beuseful to talk about like really
what sessions or the processlooks like.
Yeah.
because we've been talking a lotabout like the personal creative
process, but the work is prettydifferent actually.
So I work only online withclients.
Sessions are 60 or 90 minutes.
(30:37):
People can make art during thesession.
People can make art betweensessions, depending on, yeah,
depending on what feels rightfor them.
Usually it will also be thatdance between conversation,
words, and then moving into thevisual.
So I'll often give a prompt andI think people are often
(30:59):
surprised when I share how vaguethose prompts are,
Catherine Dutton (31:04):
um,
Amelia Knott (31:05):
like compared to the projects I might post on, on
social media, which are veryspecific with a specific outcome
in mind.
When it comes to client work,I'm usually trying to give
something as open ended aspossible, because Um, and I
think that having someone's owninternal sense of what they want
to make or how they want to makeit is going impactful than
(31:25):
something I could instruct orimagine for them.
So oftentimes also that lookslike someone working completely
spontaneously, choosing amaterial, like I'll really
encourage someone to explore anddecide for themselves what they
think would be useful to makein, in a certain moment or given
(31:47):
a conversation we're having.
But, Kind of zooming out usuallywhat the process as a whole
looks like is we'll, we'llgather, get to know each other,
get to know what like the goalsor intentions are for our work
together.
And.
work through that with, withart.
They'll make something and thenwe'll have a conversation about
(32:10):
what they're seeing, whatthey're noticing.
And that's really where the artpsychotherapy training comes in
and how it's different from aclass or other kinds of
modalities.
Art therapists have a master'slevel training in psychotherapy.
The process of, I mean, howcertain projects are given and
also how we talk about the art.
It's pretty specific.
Um, and there's, yeah, some,again, there's some pretty
(32:32):
specific ways that arttherapists are trained to do
that.
So there's again, this dancebetween Making and then
conversation about the piecelooking for looking for the
meaning in it.
And then something I'll often doafter eight, 10 sessions or
after we've been workingtogether for a certain amount of
time is we'll do an art review.
(32:54):
So I'll take all the picturesthat they've sent of their art
and make a slideshow or putthings in a digital whiteboard,
right?
We'll have some way of lookingback at everything they've
created.
And that's always a reallyamazing process because.
First of all, people oftenforget something they've made,
but they're also seeingeverything they've done over the
past couple of months in onespace.
(33:17):
And it just, it blows my mindthe way they'll pick out themes.
Like, oh my goodness, I didn'trealize I was using this shade
of blue from the beginning.
Or, oh wow, there's been a realchange in the quality of my line
work.
It feels bolder or moreconfident now.
And having those visualartifacts From every step of the
process is just a reallytangible reminder of the change
(33:42):
process that happens, which isharder to capture in talk
therapy truthfully, right, toactually look back and see what
the progress has been in arttherapy.
You have the artifacts showingit to you.
Catherine Dutton (33:52):
You have an actual visual artifact, which I
think could be really powerfulto see.
Do you ever have clients who areinterested in art therapy, but
they're like, but I, I don't,but I'm not creative.
I don't make art.
Amelia Knott (34:07):
Absolutely.
And how does that work?
People often come to art therapybecause they're feeling that
tension.
Maybe they feel drawn to dosomething creative, but feel
that resistance and want to workthrough it.
And what we'll do is we'll startwith things that they might not
have assumed were creativity,right?
(34:28):
We'll kind of bring theexpectations down and try to
have some experiences of.
It's just engaging with materialin a way that, again, is really
about how the process feels, nothow the product looks.
So, I mean, an example of that,uh, this is something I've done
a lot with, with clients who areexperiencing that block, or not
(34:50):
feeling creative, is we'll grabten pieces of printer paper.
And spend, 10, 20 minutesripping, crumpling, doing
something different with everysingle piece of paper.
And we could call thatsculptures, we could call that
just experimenting.
And then looking at the 10sculptures and, okay, which one
of these feels like you today?
(35:12):
Why?
What do you notice about it?
So even using something thattakes, like, no degree of skill
and starting to view it throughthe lens of, like, what
metaphors might come through inthis, what observations am I
making, which actual physicalmotions of engaging with a paper
felt good or felt bad, right?
There's so much information thatcan come from working with art
(35:33):
materials that has nothing to dowith what it becomes in the end.
Catherine Dutton (35:39):
how do you navigate when you have, like,
challenges?
Whether it's working with aclient or with yourself, where
you go, I don't know what to dowith this.
I don't know how to move itforward anymore.
Amelia Knott (35:51):
I think that's where the art is, is really
useful because it's like a thirdpresence in the therapy room.
There's this concept in arttherapy called chevery triangle,
right?
It's not just the art or notjust the client and the
therapist.
There's the triangle of theclient, the therapist, and the
(36:13):
artwork in conversation, kind ofin three directions.
So I find when there's thosemoments of stuckness, we can
turn back to look at what'sbeing made, and it gives us just
a little bit more information.
So oftentimes, I mean, I'lladmit when I'm feeling stuck and
not sure what to ask next, or ifthere's kind of an awkward
(36:34):
moment, I'll say, okay, givenwhat we've just explored and
might reiterate some of ourconversation, looking back now
at the art, do you see anythingnew?
Like we can kind of turn to theart and see if it has anything
to add to the conversation.
And normally it does, right?
Mm
Catherine Dutton (36:51):
hmm.
I really.
I'm so fascinated by theemphasis on the process, but not
just the process of making theart, but the meaning that we're
attributing to the art.
And so, and as you, whether it'sas you're making the art or as
you're talking about itafterwards, like, it sounds like
a lot of connections can be madefor people during that
(37:15):
verbalization process.
Amelia Knott (37:17):
Hugely.
Absolutely.
I mean, and that's also wherethe danger comes from.
And that's why art therapiststraining is really important.
We know that memory and traumalive in the visual sides of our
brain.
And I mean, not just negativeexperiences, but it's really
possible when someone isactivating, uh, the creative and
(37:41):
visual sides of themselves, thatthey'll make things that
surprise them, right?
In a conversation, when we'respeaking out loud, we generally
know what we know.
I mean, sometimes you'll saysomething and surprise yourself,
but conversation is reallyworking the cognitive, the
analytical, and then Whensomeone's in an art process,
(38:01):
they're making tons of decisionsthat they might not be conscious
of.
And then when you step back,sometimes it can be confronting
or really surprising what hascome out.
I think, I mean, more often thanI can count, I've had
experiences with my own art orwith clients where I've stood
back and been like, Oh mygoodness, I have represented
(38:23):
something that reminds me ofthis or looks like that.
It's not necessarily that, youknow, a symbol has been hidden.
in the work, but the way yourbrain makes those connections
can be really revealing.
And, you know, this is why itwouldn't be necessarily a safe
or, appropriate intervention toask somebody to represent their
(38:45):
trauma.
Right.
Right.
Because that could be a really,really activating process.
It might not be, um, a safer,appropriate process to work with
a really fluid or uncontainedmaterial if someone is working
on feeling safe and secure.
There's a lot of differentconsiderations around the
materials we choose or how wedecide to work with them.
(39:08):
To enter into a process and whatwe decide to represent that I
think needs to be reallycarefully held, but the
potential for someone to makemeaning in something they've
made is is huge and something mysite or and something my my
clinical supervisor often saysis that it's impossible to make
something that isn't alreadytrue within us.
(39:30):
So when someone, say, isnoticing, like, a sense of
lightness, a sense of hope, asense of confidence in their
work, that came from insidethem, right?
We can't bring something intothe world creatively if it
doesn't exist within us already.
I love that.
Catherine Dutton (39:48):
That was beautiful.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (39:49):
Now, this has been fascinating.
I, it, it strikes me andespecially today, since this is
what you do, art therapy, but Ithink each one of these
conversations that Catherine andI have had with different
artists, I've come away feelingthat kind of inspiration and I'm
learning something from, fromeach person that we talk with.
(40:11):
And so thank you for sharing allof those insights with us.
Really been great.
Amelia Knott (40:17):
Oh, I mean, such a delight to be here and I feel
like finally have a two sidedconversation as well, especially
because we spent so much timetogether in groups.
Catherine Dutton (40:28):
Can you tell us a little bit about your book
and how that can help peoplewith their creative process and
while they're living in anonline world?
Amelia Knott (40:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, something that's reallyimpacted my work, my
relationships, my creativeprocess over, gosh, the past
five years now is, It's digitalspace, right?
I graduated from art therapyschool into the beginning of the
pandemic and my work wentcompletely online.
(40:58):
I also moved to a really ruralpart of British Columbia and the
internet really is the thingthat made, made my work and
relationships possible.
The positive side of that is theconnective potential, the
inspiration.
Okay.
I really love the internet.
(41:19):
The internet is how we met.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And.
And it's, it's a place thatisn't designed with our
psychological well being inmind.
So a lot of like my journey andwhat has informed my practice
over the past five years hasbeen thinking about how we hold
this paradox of living in aworld that is, you know,
(41:40):
increasingly reliant on digitaltools.
How do we balance the parts thatare really genuinely good,
meaningful, inspiring, lifeaffirming, and the parts that
are incredibly damaging?
And I think because I'm an arttherapist, I'm always looking
for the creative ways that wecan address that question and,
(42:02):
and hold ourselves in thosereflections.
So the book I've written, TheArt of Thriving Online, really
is about how we might use artand writing to grapple with what
it means to choose to stayonline.
Because for so many of us, it'shard.
It doesn't really feel like achoice anymore.
Yeah.
I think if I could choose to beoffline, I might mm-hmm But I
(42:25):
don't know how to do that givenwhere I live, the work I do,
where the people I love are inthe world.
Right.
I really feel stuck being onsocial media and being online.
So instead of living with thissense of shame or pushing back
against the fact that it feelslike a necessity, I'm really, in
(42:45):
my own life, especially investedin the question of how.
Art might be an ally tonavigating that and even
collaborating with digitalspace.
So to get, to get practical, thebook is divided into chapters
that explore attention, uh,productivity, that urgency we
experience online comparison,right?
(43:06):
A comparison we feel looking atother people's art or lives on
social media.
Um, fear, anger, disinformation,right?
The way.
Social media platforms aredesigned to evoke our most
activated negative emotions andthen place fear or sorry place,
(43:27):
uh, body belonging.
So there's writing, there'sresearch in each chapter, and
then it's also a workbook.
So there's reflection questionsbuilt right in there.
The idea really is to takepeople through their own
creative process so that theycan author their own definition
of what time well spent onlinecould mean.
(43:50):
I don't have the answers.
I don't have a list of hacksthat will make being on social
media better for everybody,right?
I can't prescribe that.
Everybody is so different andhas a different relationship
with.
Art with technology, but thereal intention of the art of
thriving online is that peoplecan discover their own visual
language, make sense of theirown evolving relationship with
(44:13):
technology and come up withtheir own definition of what
wellness could mean and use artto do that.
Right?
Catherine Dutton (44:20):
Yeah, that's actually, that's one of the
things I really liked about thebook as I was going through it
was this emphasis on art.
My experience rather than youtelling me what the experience
should be because so many booksdo that which Sometimes I want
them to tell me what to do, butonly but in this case, it's so
personal it really does help youreflect and think about how can
(44:44):
I be intentional in theseactions?
or what do I want out of thesetypes of interactions And the
illustrations in the book are sofun.
I love them.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (44:54):
So how can everyone get their hands on it?
Amelia Knott (44:57):
You can find it wherever you like to buy books.
it's on the big websites.
It's available through mypublisher, Sounds True.
Uh, you can also find it throughyour local bookstore, your local
library, but it's the art ofthriving online, creative
exercises to help you staygrounded and feel joy in the
world of social media.
(45:17):
And that's it.
It's also available in audiobook.
If that's how you like toconsume information, um, and
ebook as well, we really madesure that the audio version felt
valuable.
So we tailored some of theprompts to also use voice and
sound, uh, just to make surethat That it as a workbook is
accessible, whether you'reengaging with it on paper or
(45:39):
listening to it.
Catherine Dutton (45:40):
I love that.
I wondered how it translated toaudio.
So I love hearing that it was athoughtful translation.
So awesome.
I will be sure to include a linkto it in the show notes as well,
so that people can find it.
Well, Amelia, it has been apleasure to chat with you.
And, um, I feel like I havetaken away so many nuggets today
that I'm going to have to thinkabout and process a little bit
(46:03):
more, but it has been a delightto talk with you.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (46:06):
Thanks for joining us on Creative
Crossroads, everyone.
We hope you'll come back andenjoy some more down the road.
Have a great day.
Amelia Knott (46:15):
Thanks so much.
Yeah, I hope to see peoplearound the internet make art
with you at some point, but itwas really special to get to be
here in conversation with bothof you.
Catherine Dutton (46:23):
Thank you so much.
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