January 30, 2025 • 56 mins
Creative Crossroads: Season 1 Finale and Reflections
In the final episode of Season 1 of the Creative Crossroads podcast, hosts Catherine and Ellyn reflect on key learnings from their journey exploring creativity with various guests. They identify common themes such as the essential nature of creativity, the importance of the creative process over the final product, the role of community, managing creative blocks, balancing structure and spontaneity, and the evolution of creative practices. The conversation delves into individual episodes, highlighting insights from guests like Dusty, Amanda, Dori, Mel, Charles, and Amelia. Catherine and Ellyn also announce an exciting upcoming creative retreat, Remix and Stitch Lab, scheduled for September. This episode is packed with valuable reflections and sets the stage for a broader exploration of creativity in future seasons.
00:00 Introduction and Overview of the Season
01:16 Identifying Key Themes in Creativity
03:56 The Importance of Process Over Product
06:06 The Role of Community in Creativity
10:15 Managing Creative Blocks
12:48 Balancing Structure and Spontaneity
15:14 Evolution of Creative Practices
20:26 Inspiration in Everyday Life
22:37 Deep Dive into Dusty's Interview
26:56 Exploring Amanda Dunbar's Creative Journey
28:17 The Butt Phase and Knowing When to Stop
29:03 Perfectionism vs. Completion
30:20 The Feedback Loop of Creativity
30:55 Meeting Dori: A Fun Conversation
31:34 The Essential Nature of Creativity
33:39 Transitioning from Dreaming Bear
35:55 Self-Judgment in Art
38:58 Mel Beach: The Importance of Play
43:07 Charles: The Analytical Creative
47:13 Amelia: Art Therapy and Personal Expression
52:33 Inspiring Creativity: Upcoming Retreat
54:30 Season Recap and Future Plans
Thanks for joining us at Creative Crossroads! Keep creating and we'll see you again soon!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Catherine Dutton (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the final
episode of our first season ofthe Creative Crossroads podcast.
Today it's just Ellen and I andwe're going to talk about What
we've learned from this seasonof creative crossroads.
We started this podcast in anexploration to learn about how
other people express theircreativity.
And so we thought that today wewould go through what we saw as
(00:23):
overall themes across all of theepisodes, and then talk about
each episode individually andwhat stood out and what we
learned from each individualperson that we interviewed this
season.
Ellen, let's get started.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (00:38):
Let's do this.
Catherine Dutton (00:40):
All right.
So we both went through and welistened to all the episodes
again and we made notes.
And in my typical researcherfashion, I have made a list of
themes across all of
Ellyn Zinsmeister (00:52):
the episodes.
I appreciate ResearcherCatherine because in my mind, I
think haphazard, scatteredformat.
I just made notes and they'reall over the place.
And so I will make mine fit intothe themes and it will all be
very nice.
Catherine Dutton (01:08):
Oh, it will be perfect.
And if there's anything thatstands out that wasn't in those,
I want to hear that as well.
Yeah.
So if we, if we're looking atacross all of the interviews
that we did this season, I sawsix distinct themes stand out.
And so I thought we could kindof just go through and talk
through each of themindividually.
(01:28):
The first theme was thatcreativity is something
essential, innate, and it, forthe people that we interviewed,
they described it as somethingthat wasn't optional, but it was
fundamental to their humanexperience.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (01:43):
Right.
you hear
Catherine Dutton (01:44):
about that?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (01:45):
I think that's true.
And I mean, each situation wasdifferent.
Some of them work a day job andthen creativity is secondary.
but still very essential totheir life.
Some of them have transitionedfrom traditional jobs into
creative lifestyles and creativejobs.
Some of them have just alwayslived a creative lifestyle all
(02:07):
around.
And for all of them, they reallyemphasize that without
creativity.
Their life wasn't as meaningfulor, you know, as powerful.
So
Catherine Dutton (02:19):
yeah, and I really liked, like, Dori
emphasized that she thinkseverybody's creative, but
there's just really differentways of being creative.
And I think that stood out to mein thinking about, We all have
different ways that we'recreative and different ways that
we express our creativity.
And while we interviewed visualartists this season, next
(02:42):
season, we're hoping to expandthat beyond those, that type of
creativity.
Because we all are creative inhow we think about things.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (02:50):
I loved a lot of them talked about their
parents.
Were your parents creative?
Well, my mother was a dancer.
So not real.
I'm like, Oh my goodness, youknow, that's so creative.
And, you know, so they werecreative in different ways,
maybe not in the visual arts,but it certainly inspired each
one.
And I, I think that's so, sotrue.
I see it with my own children.
(03:12):
One of my three children is verycreative in the visual arts and
inspired that way, but theothers have, you know, gifts.
They're, they're dancers andwriters and broadcasters, and
they use their creative gifts indifferent ways, and they just
don't recognize it as such.
Catherine Dutton (03:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I see it all the time withstudents that I will tell them,
you know, like, be creative inthis assignment.
And my students will be like,I'm not a creative person.
And I'm like, Oh, I am sure thatyou are creative.
You're just thinking like, Idon't draw.
I think oftentimes people thinkcreativity equals I can draw or
I can paint or something likethat.
And that's creativity spans somuch more than that.
(03:49):
I think it's important toacknowledge that in ourselves.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (03:52):
I agree.
I agree.
That was a great common theme.
Another thing that they alltalked about was how they found
their process to be so much moreimportant than the final
product.
That was your second category.
Catherine Dutton (04:06):
So that was the second theme was the focus
on the journey rather than justthe result.
And I think you and I have hadthat conversation a lot because
I am definitely a journeyperson.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (04:18):
We a lot of stuff together that never makes
it to Instagram.
Catherine Dutton (04:23):
We do, we do, and I make a lot of stuff that
like never even turns up in afinished product either, either,
because for me that finalproduct is just not, I don't
care if there is one, it'sreally about just like sitting
there and making something, butI don't have to do anything with
it, but you are, you're afinisher, you finish things,
which is cool too.
Yeah,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (04:42):
but I'm starting to recognize how
important that process is.
And maybe doing more artjournaling where it's a gradual,
I may work on a A journal for acouple of years.
I may come back to it, add toit.
So I think that's something I'mlearning and that's becoming
more important to me.
Catherine Dutton (05:02):
One thing that stood out to me was Dusty talked
about how every project that shehas will inform the next one and
so that the process Develops ourskills over time and teaches and
like in Practicing like processis really practice, right?
And so the more that we practicethings the more the better we
(05:23):
get at it and the each of thosemoments of practice and it
inspires us to do somethingdifferent.
And we start to ask questionsand get curious and go, what if
I did this?
Or what if I tried this?
And like, I'm thinking about,you did some improv flowers
lately and you were like, Ooh,what if I did this?
And it was just like a littlefun one day project, but I think
(05:46):
it's evolving into somethingbigger for you.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (05:49):
I think it is.
Charles talked a lot about thattoo, about being part of the bee
and using bee prompts and blockprompts to grow into something
bigger that he might expand onlater on that he might turn into
a bigger piece of work or, youknow, a bigger quilt or another
piece.
Catherine Dutton (06:06):
Yeah.
And actually that, that's,that's transitions us into the
third theme really nicely, whichis the role of community.
And so I know Charles talkedabout like how participating in
the bee was just this hugecreative step for him.
And it allowed him theopportunity, like you said, to,
to experience quilting in adifferent sort of way.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (06:28):
Right.
And we mentioned the bee now andthen in the podcast, and I've
never really explained that,
Catherine Dutton (06:33):
Will you explain it?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (06:34):
sure, another friend, Sarah Gower from
California, and I formed theQuilts Unscripted Bee during the
pandemic.
There were quite a few of uswanting to work collaboratively,
and it was hard.
It was really hard to do duringthose times.
So we came up with a way to doit.
online where we found people allacross the country.
(06:56):
We invited people, people weknew really well that worked in
improv quilting, people wewanted to know better, people
whose work we admired and wegathered this group.
And so we're going into ourfifth year now, starting this
year, making improv quiltstogether, and it's just, I think
(07:16):
all of us have grown, um, andreally learned from each other.
Because you get a prompt, amonthly prompt from someone, and
like Charles talked about, itdoesn't start in your brain.
So you have to do something thatsomebody else came up with, and
find a way to make it your own,and to contribute to their
project.
(07:37):
So that, for me, that's been ahuge Online community, and I
typically see those people oncea year at QuiltCon, which is
coming up, and I really lookforward to that, because they've
not only become collaborators,but good friends.
And, I mean, certainly we haveour local quilter, quilting
buddies, and just you and Igetting together to, to junk
(08:00):
journal or whatever, I mean,community is, is key.
Another thing that stood out tome, Amanda talked about how Her
painting career, she's primarilyan oil painter, is so isolating
that there's no real community.
But once she started dabbling infiber arts and quilting, she
(08:22):
found that community
Catherine Dutton (08:24):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (08:25):
community.
Catherine Dutton (08:27):
Yeah.
And I, that stood out to me withhers, and I, the other one that
really stood out to me wasAmelia's talking about, um, And
she was like, I don't think it'scheating to need community to
create structure for ourselvesbecause her use of community
wasn't necessarily in likeinspiration for creating, but it
(08:49):
was creating structure so thatshe would create.
And I, and I, I think for me,that is a big part of community
for me, like I go to quiltretreat days or I go to sew
days.
And that for me is a reason tocreate because I can easily go
three to four weeks withoutdoing anything creative.
And I need it.
I want it.
I need it.
I want it.
But I don't, but I get busy withwork and I just don't make time
(09:13):
for it.
And that ensures that I createthat structure so that I do it.
And I like, and even thecommunity I have with you, like
doing art days with you meansthat at least once a week I am
doing something creative and
Ellyn Zinsmeister (09:24):
It's on the calendar.
Catherine Dutton (09:25):
on the calendar.
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (09:27):
The other thing was Dori talking about the
Dreaming Bear, the shop sheowned for, for kids.
10 or 12 years and how thatcreated community.
It did not, it did not force herto create personally.
It took away from her personalcreating time, but it created
community and brought peopletogether to make and what, what
(09:49):
joy that brought to people inher community.
Catherine Dutton (09:52):
And I want to talk more about that when we
talk about Dori's interviewspecifically, because she really
bought in some uniqueperspectives there as she talked
about the dreaming bear.
Yeah.
Um, Any other thoughts on therole of community?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (10:07):
No, I think that's good.
Catherine Dutton (10:09):
Okay, the fourth theme that I saw was
like, how people manage theircreative blocks.
And I just thought that this wasacross the board.
Like, there were so manydifferent ways that people
handled it.
And some people were like, oh,wait, who was it?
Mel was like, I don't ever havea problem with creative blocks.
I have so many things to do.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (10:28):
How great is that?
Catherine Dutton (10:29):
I know I was like, I'm kind of jealous.
And then Amanda was like,Sometimes she just takes a break
and goes and works in the yard,like completely different sort
of task.
And I think Dusty kind of echoedthat as well, because she was
like, I'll just step away and gowork on something else.
And I loved Dori's strategywhere she was like, I'll set a
timer and say, Dori, you can doanything for 20 minutes.
(10:52):
And I thought that was a greatidea of like, I'm just going to
set a time and just like, say, Iwill do this for 20 minutes.
And you just start.
She just would start makingmarks and then next thing she
knows, she's doing somethingfun.
And she was like, if I don'thave my mojo, at that point,
I've set the timer again foranother 20 minutes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (11:10):
I know.
I love that, and I may startusing that.
I think that's really great.
The other thing that I noticedacross the board, I think every
single one of them mentionedthat when they get really stuck,
They stop and clean theirstudio.
That often it's just the messhas gotten out of control.
Too many projects, too manysupplies, too many things.
Catherine Dutton (11:31):
I relate to that so well because I know for
me, like when my studio gets toa certain point, I have to be
like, okay, it's time for areset.
And I just, I can't focus.
If there's too much, I can takesome clutter in my studio, but
if there's too
Ellyn Zinsmeister (11:45):
Oh,
Catherine Dutton (11:46):
or if I'm.
If there's too much, I just, itbothers me and I can't focus on
what the creativity that I wantto do.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (11:54):
The other thing I've found, so I recently
did a major redo in my studio
Catherine Dutton (11:58):
You did.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (11:59):
out, I took everything out, touched
everything, sorted everything,and put it all back in in a
tidier, more organized way.
And just that action of touchingall the things, sometimes you
come across something that youset aside three years ago and
it's like, oh wait, this thing,you know, and then it spurs
(12:20):
something else and makes youthink, you know, creatively.
And either you take that thingand make it into something or
you jump off from there.
I found a lot of that in thatmajor tidy up of my studio
coming across things I hadforgotten.
Catherine Dutton (12:36):
I need to do that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (12:38):
Too bad you don't have any friends with
experience in that area, huh?
Catherine Dutton (12:43):
I
Ellyn Zinsmeister (12:43):
it on the calendar.
That's great.
Catherine Dutton (12:48):
So the next theme that we found was the
balance of structure andspontaneity.
And I think again, people reallydid this differently.
Some people saw that they reallydo both.
Charles was like, he almostvacillates between projects,
some projects are justinherently more structured and
some are more spontaneous forhim, whereas Amelia, she was
(13:10):
like, left to my own devices.
Structure is challenging.
I need other people.
And I, I related so closely tothat one.
Dori, similar to Charles, like,sometimes I know exactly what
I'm going to do.
And there's other days where Ishow up and I don't have the
foggiest.
I love that.
Like just the openness ofsometimes we just don't know
what we're going to do.
And then there was Mel who hadthe very, just that structured
(13:32):
approach of I roll dice, but itwas structure and spontaneity at
the same time.
I thought that was really cool.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (13:39):
Yeah.
I love how she blended themtogether.
So there's structure to herprocess, but then each
individual day's project is veryspontaneous.
Catherine Dutton (13:48):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (13:49):
It was
Catherine Dutton (13:50):
within the constraints that she's given
herself so that she can besuccessful in it too, which I
liked.
Mm
Ellyn Zinsmeister (13:56):
I like that a lot.
I think, yeah, I teach improvquilting.
Frequently and
Catherine Dutton (14:02):
hmm.
Mm
Ellyn Zinsmeister (14:04):
to a quilter, just sew the pieces together,
just pull two out of a bin.
And so, for me, that doesn'twork.
There needs to be somestructure.
Today, we're going to work withtriangles and you're going to
choose a color palette and we'regoing to work within that color
palette.
You know, make
Catherine Dutton (14:19):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsme (14:20):
improvisationally, then let the spontaneity go.
But,
Catherine Dutton (14:24):
Yeah.
And I think it's just, it's sointeresting looking at those
creative practices because forsome people working with a
limited color palette might feelreally challenging and
constraining.
Whereas other people need thatin order for it to feel like
they'll have a cohesive productat the end because they need
that color cohesion.
For, for them to feel like itlooks good.
(14:46):
Other people, I don't know howthey do it, but like, they
really can pull any strip out ofthe box and just go next.
And they end up with a beautifulproduct.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (14:53):
isn't that amazing?
Catherine Dutton (14:54):
I get really struck.
I struggle with that one.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (14:57):
I do too.
I do too, but I have lots offriends that, you know, scrappy
is totally their thing and itends up just incredibly
beautiful, so yeah,
Catherine Dutton (15:07):
it's incredible.
It's yeah, it's really neat tosee the different ways that
people approach that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (15:12):
I agree with you,
Catherine Dutton (15:14):
Well, then the final theme that I found across
all of them was, um, thatcreative practices evolve and
they're going to change overtime.
I felt like that reallyresonated with me and my own
experiences with creativity, andmy own creative practices.
Amelia talked about how she wentto art school and it was so
(15:35):
focused on critiques.
And she, she even said she hadto unlearn that practice as she
moved into.
doing therapy because youdefinitely can't walk into a
therapy room and critiquesomeone's art.
Like that's not the point of it
Ellyn Zinsmeister (15:50):
Right.
You wouldn't want to.
Catherine Dutton (15:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not, it's not even aboutthe product.
It's about the meaning of theproduct.
Um, and I felt, I thought thatwas so interesting.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (15:59):
I think they all, and none of our questions
specifically were geared towardevolution in your creative
practice, but every conversationkind of went that direction,
which was really cool.
Catherine Dutton (16:11):
It really did.
And like Charles talked abouthow he went from being like,
everything was pre planned Likethat he would create it in
PowerPoint and pre plan it outto now like he spends more time
on the design wall And he giveshimself time for things to
marinate and that's a big shiftfor him
Ellyn Zinsmeister (16:33):
I like when Dori talked about, early on she
was painting, making things thatdidn't really even resonate with
what she loved.
And then she talked about, shehad a teacher who said, pay
attention to what you payattention to.
And that was just like, whatmakes your heart sing?
What speaks to you?
That's the work you want to beaiming toward not, painting that
(16:55):
bowl of fruit on a table, which,we all went through in school
art classes.
Catherine Dutton (17:01):
I hated that assignment so much in seventh
grade.
I really did
Ellyn Zinsmeister (17:06):
my art teacher told me I didn't have a
creative bone in my body becausemy bowl of fruit didn't look
like the bowl of fruit on thetable.
I'm
Catherine Dutton (17:13):
it was my one point perspective drawing that
was like, yeah, no, you don'thave any creativity and I was
like
Ellyn Zinsmeister (17:19):
know?
Catherine Dutton (17:20):
there's a very big difference between
creativity and skill and I thinkthat sometimes we we confuse the
two that like to have drawingskills or painting skills equals
creativity and that's Those arenot the same thing.
Um, creativity is about thoughtprocess and how we're thinking
(17:42):
versus how the skill that wehave to enact that creativity.
Well,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (17:51):
that's a thing that evolves over time
that, you know, the payingattention, the, I mean, I did a
specific project where I pickeda color palette and for six
months, I'm going to work onlyin these colors and I'm going
to, you know, see where thistakes me and see what my voice
is, but you don't have to dothat.
You can just watch your practiceas it grows.
Catherine Dutton (18:12):
you created a beautiful structure for yourself
to allow yourself to explorethat.
and I think that was a reallycool way to explore your
creativity and kind of find yourvoice in that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (18:23):
It was fun.
It was, that was a fun project.
Yeah, I mean, and again, it wasa lot of what Dori talked about,
paying attention to what, what Ipay attention to.
Oh, that painting with the redchair really speaks to me.
I wonder if I could jump off ofthat and use that as inspiration
for an improv quilt.
And I did, and yeah,
Catherine Dutton (18:43):
And
Ellyn Zinsmeister (18:44):
I was, I was following her advice without
even knowing what it was.
Catherine Dutton (18:49):
and I think like that evolution of creative
practice.
Like our part of our creativityevolving over time does reflect
our skill shift as well Likebecause I was thinking about the
conversation I think it was withDusty where she was saying like
in the beginning she usedpatterns and now she now she
really doesn't use Patterns andher quilting and I think that's
(19:10):
part of that Creative evolutionof having confidence in your own
skills to, to be able to justsay, I don't need to follow
somebody else's directions.
I know this craft well enoughthat I can just jump in and make
my own thing.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (19:27):
And confidence is exactly the word
that was coming to my mind.
I think, you know, anytimeyou're new at something copying
what someone else does orfollowing their pattern is a
good way to learn and a good wayto develop your own skill, but
then at some point you jump offand have the confidence to be
yourself and use your own voice.
Catherine Dutton (19:47):
I think that is part of that creative process
evolution.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (19:52):
I'll be curious to see how that is
reflected with different kindsof creative people outside the
visual arts.
Catherine Dutton (19:59):
Yes, I just thinking the same thing, like,
are we going to see that as westart to talk to other creative
people?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (20:06):
I'll bet we will.
Catherine Dutton (20:07):
I bet it'll be interesting.
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (20:10):
It will.
Catherine Dutton (20:12):
All right.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (20:12):
those were great themes, Catherine.
Thank you and your researchermind for going there.
Catherine Dutton (20:18):
Did you have any other things that you saw
come across?
All of them?
Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (20:23):
of mine fit in to all of yours.
The only other thing Iconsistently heard all of our
artists say is that inspirationis everywhere.
And in one way or another, theyall said, well, I find
inspiration in my morning cup ofcoffee or in the buildings or in
the flowers.
You know, talked about seeinginspiration in their daily
(20:47):
lives, and, uh, I thought thatwas interesting, too.
No matter what their daily liveslook like, and they all look
different.
They were all in differentlocations, and
Catherine Dutton (20:59):
I think that really goes back to what Dori
said about paying attention towhat you pay attention to,
because I think the things thatwe pay attention to can be the
things that inspire us.
And I think it was you andAmelia talking about nature,
like that wasn't necessarilysomething that appealed to you.
that inspired either of you?
I hope I'm saying the rightperson, but I am inspired by
(21:21):
nature, but I'm inspired by,I've realized I pay attention to
other things other than that.
And so I've started to takepictures of the things I pay
attention to and go, okay, Howcan that inspire me?
I love clouds.
Like that is something I payattention to because I drive
across bridges every day.
And so I see like nothing butthe water and the clouds as I'm
doing that.
(21:42):
And I never thought about ituntil Dori's interview.
And I was like, I wonder what Icould do with that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (21:47):
There you go.
And for me, it's buildings.
Catherine Dutton (21:50):
It is for you.
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (21:52):
It's buildings and I've been known to
trip over cracks in the sidewalkin New York City because I'm so
busy looking up the buildings.
Catherine Dutton (22:00):
Oh, that could be dangerous.
Be careful.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (22:02):
yeah, I've had to learn to be more careful.
I think Mel and I had a goodconversation about this too.
Having just recently comethrough the pandemic where all
of us were experiencing someisolation and we had to find
inspiration.
We had to find ways to beinspired within our bubbles.
You know, I
Catherine Dutton (22:23):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (22:24):
Going to New York City and walking up and
down the streets was not anoption for me during the
pandemic, but, getting out of myhouse, finding inspiration where
I could.
And she talked about the samething.
Catherine Dutton (22:37):
So I'm going to use that as a jumping off
point to transition to talkingabout Dusty's interview because
one thing that was differentabout hers was like other people
use like buildings or nature,outdoor things as their
inspiration.
Dusty used words as inspiration.
And so she used that as hercatalyst for like her other
quilts.
(22:58):
and sometimes like the wordswould be directly on the quilt
and, sometimes it was the quotethat inspired the quilt for her,
which I thought was unique.
And it was different from whatwe heard from other people about
that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (23:09):
I think you're right.
I also love about Dusty, how sheincorporates, digital
Catherine Dutton (23:16):
Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (23:17):
I mean, I am, I'm a graph paper and pencil
girl, confess.
And part of that is becauseThere weren't even computers
until I was well into adulthood,so I'm, I'm revealing my age
here, but Dusty uses, usesdigital media in incredible ways
that I find really interesting,
Catherine Dutton (23:38):
And I think what makes hers unique is that
it's not just that she uses it,but she really integrates the
digital technology withtraditional quilting.
She's not just creating digitalproducts like she's integrating
it with that traditionalpractice, which is really cool
Ellyn Zinsmeister (23:54):
Using it to manipulate images and words more
as her planning process, whichCharles talked about too.
Catherine Dutton (24:01):
But and also about her execution, like using
the laser cutter to cut out herwords.
And she's really cool, I thinkone thing that I love about
Dusty's quilting is her dyingthat she does.
She embraces theunpredictability of it.
She talked about how, sometimesshe'll just let them pile up
(24:22):
until they inspire her to dosomething.
Which was kind of cool.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (24:25):
Yeah.
And how she does multiple at onetime.
Catherine Dutton (24:28):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (24:28):
do you have a quilt idea?
And then dye a piece for, andshe's like, no, that would never
work.
Catherine Dutton (24:33):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (24:34):
I thought that was fascinating.
Her ice dyed fabrics areincredibly beautiful.
Catherine Dutton (24:39):
Oh, they are so lovely.
Yeah.
And I think one of the otherparts that I really appreciated
about the conversation with herwas just the very personal
disclosure and conversation thatwe had about imposter syndrome
and how like that personalstruggle of like, will anybody
else appreciate this?
Is does my voice matter in allof this?
(25:01):
And I think that that is a veryreal thing that many of us
experience.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (25:06):
absolutely.
If not all of us,
Catherine Dutton (25:08):
Yeah.
Well, yeah, all of us experienceit and whether we're
experiencing it in the creativerealm or in the professional
realm, or even like in ourrelationships, we can experience
imposter syndrome in all ofthose areas.
And I think it's something that.
We're starting to talk aboutmore, but it's just something
that we often feel like.
I can't say that I feel like animposter, but I feel like I'm an
(25:29):
imposter, but if you said thatyou were, it felt like it,
everybody else would be like, Ohyeah, I feel like that too.
Me too.
I'm all there.
Everybody's there.
We're all there together.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (25:37):
right?
Catherine Dutton (25:38):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (25:39):
The other thing she talked about that
really struck me was howimportant it is to her to
encourage others, specificallyher niece as a nephew and, and
how she's so intentional aboutthat.
And even in the quotes she uses,how intentional she is about
inclusivity and about whatmessage she's sending out to
(26:01):
this younger generation.
And I just.
I've just loved that.
Catherine Dutton (26:05):
I did too.
okay, I want to say two thingsabout that.
the first one is that she talkedabout how creativity was really
important for her and gettingthrough rough times in life.
Creativity was almost a refugefor her at times.
I feel like that was soimportant and just a beautiful
way to look at how creativitycan impact our lives in such a
positive way.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (26:26):
I really enjoyed talking to Dusty, and
Dusty's someone who's been inour lives for ten years, the
whole time she's been quilting,but I learned so much that I
didn't already know, and it wasfun to explore those things with
her.
Catherine Dutton (26:40):
it really was.
I've always admired the workthat she does and I think one of
the reasons we picked her is wewere both like, I'd like to pick
her brain more and understandmore about how her brain works
with all of this.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (26:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And another person that we'veknown personally.
and finally got the opportunityto really dive into her mind was
Amanda Dunbar.
Amanda is, a local artist whowe've met through the Fiber Arts
World, which is not her primaryworld of creativity, but that's
(27:10):
where we met her.
And we were like, Oh, we wantit.
We want to know more aboutAmanda.
So
Catherine Dutton (27:16):
Well, and I, I have to be honest, I did not
realize that Amanda was a worldrenowned, incredibly famous oil
painter when we interviewed her.
Maybe I
Ellyn Zinsmeister (27:28):
on the Oprah show.
Catherine Dutton (27:29):
and maybe I should enter, maybe I should.
Maybe I should Google my friendsmore often.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (27:37):
Oh, don't Google me.
Please don't.
But it was neat because that wasa little different perspective,
you know, coming from thatangle.
Catherine Dutton (27:44):
It really was.
And I liked, like, when shetalked about, commissions I
really appreciated what she saidwhen a client shows her things
that she's created that theylike, and then said, here's the
space it's going to go in and gofor it.
So like, again, giving somestructure, but also allowing.
For freedom and something that'sgoing to fit that client versus
(28:05):
just replicating something thatalready exists.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (28:07):
The other thing that jumped out to me from
her interview, this washilarious, when she talked about
going through the butt phase ofany individual
Catherine Dutton (28:15):
my gosh, yes, that was great.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (28:17):
so great, how every piece of work, you start
and you get into it, and thenit, you look at it and go, what
am I doing?
Why am I doing this?
This is ugly, this is horrible,and she calls that the butt
phase.
And how you have to plow throughthat and get to the other side
of it to create your art.
Catherine Dutton (28:35):
Yes.
Like going along with that, shealso talked about knowing when
to stop something.
And I loved the metric that shegave us, which was like, when,
what I'm doing to it is nolonger adding to the project,
it's just starting to take awayfrom it.
I appreciated that becausesometimes it's hard to know,
like, when is something reallydone?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (28:57):
Yeah.
And that was a good, a goodmetric to follow.
Yeah.
I agree
Catherine Dutton (29:01):
really was.
Yeah.
And another thing that shetalked about was perfectionism
versus completing something.
Her quote was, what's that oldadage?
Perfection is the enemy ofcompletion.
A finished project is betterthan one you'll never finish
because you'll never achieveperfection.
And I think sometimes I need areminder of that, that it will
never be perfect.
(29:22):
because what is perfect anyways?
Like who defined what perfectlooks like?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (29:27):
Done is better than perfect.
And if it gave you more ideasand you want to keep going,
start another piece using thoseideas.
Use it as a jumping off point.
Catherine Dutton (29:37):
Well, and I
Ellyn Zinsmeister (29:38):
work in scenes,
Catherine Dutton (29:39):
well, and I think that goes back to what we
were talking about is that ourcreativity evolves.
And as our skills improve, as wemake things, our skills improve.
And so, yeah, something that Imade 20 years ago is not going
to look the same as somethingthat I make now because overall
my skills have changed.
how I see the world has changed.
(30:00):
Of course, it's going to lookdifferent.
Of course, it's going to bebetter.
Or better?
But is it better or is it just adifferently honed, a more honed
version of it?
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (30:11):
Now I agree with you.
I've got a couple decades on youand I can say that that has
continued in my life, you know,as things change.
Catherine Dutton (30:19):
Yeah.
And another thing that shetalked about was how she talked
about it like a feedback loop,that one idea leads into
another.
It leads into new ideas forpainting, which leads into new
ideas for her dissertation,which might lead into an idea
for quilting.
And it's just a big circle.
So I think connecting back toDori's pay attention to what you
(30:41):
pay attention to, pay attentionto it.
And then you can start thinkingabout how it's connecting to
other areas of other creativeparts of your life.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (30:49):
that's a really good point.
Catherine Dutton (30:51):
Thanks.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (30:52):
A really good point.
Who did we talk?
Oh, it was Dori we talked tonext and that was a really fun
conversation.
And we've never met Dori, to befair.
Catherine Dutton (31:05):
Yeah, we had both followed Dori on social
media, and we both enjoyed herartwork very much.
I loved getting to meet her andchat with her.
It was a very fun talk.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (31:15):
and I have to say, after we turned off the
recording that day, I think wecarried on for another 30 to 40
minutes, just chatting.
There may be some futureopportunities for us to work
together in collaboration, soI'm looking forward to seeing
where that goes.
She started right off sayingthat she feels better when she's
making
Catherine Dutton (31:34):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (31:34):
to our creativity is It's not optional.
It's essential.
Catherine Dutton (31:38):
Yes.
And she talked about it almostlike as a compulsion, right?
for some people it was a choiceor it's a practice that I do,
but Dori was like, it isingrained in me.
And she was like, I cannot notmake things.
Like, I don't understand peoplewho just sit and watch TV and
don't have something busy goingwith their hands.
And I relate so much to that.
I fall asleep when I watch TVwithout doing something, but as
(32:01):
soon as I've got a crochet hookin my hand or an embroidery
needle or a marker in my hand,like I'm good to go.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (32:08):
I mean, I have a whole room for my studio
for my creative things and asyou know, there's always like a
paint mat on my dining roomtable and An art journal or
something laying there that Ican just walk by and sit down
and add to at any point.
Sometimes that's a few minutesand sometimes I lose more time
than I'd like to.
Catherine Dutton (32:30):
But it's not really a lost time, is it?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (32:33):
No, not at
Catherine Dutton (32:33):
yeah,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (32:34):
I think when we were first married it really
bothered my husband that we hadto clear a space to sit down to
dinner every night.
Catherine Dutton (32:40):
uh,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (32:41):
almost 40 years I think, um, he's pretty
used to it at this point.
Laughter.
Catherine Dutton (32:46):
he's, he's accepted the Ellen that you are.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (32:50):
Well, and she talked a lot about that too,
about how supportive her husbandis in her creative, like he's
not necessarily a visual artist,a creative person himself, but
how he supports her endeavors,how he's her driver and her
snack getter and all of thosethings.
And I think for a lot of us,that's really important.
Catherine Dutton (33:11):
Yeah, that's interesting.
We didn't really touch on,family support with anybody
else, but Dori definitely didbring that into her
conversation.
Yeah,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (33:21):
You did.
I resonated with that because Ihave that in my life, you know,
Catherine Dutton (33:25):
I've always been single, so, like, for me
it's, yeah, it's just me.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (33:29):
you do what you do, but you're accountable
to me, buddy.
Catherine Dutton (33:31):
This is true.
This is, you definitely keep meon track, and I appreciate that.
Changing the topic completely.
I think one thing that wasinteresting was when she talked
about, owning the Dreaming Bearand how she transitioned after
she closed the store, like howshe had to transition from being
the facilitator of otherpeople's creativity to finding
(33:55):
her creative voice again.
She even said that she didn'treally start to figure out her
style until the store was closeddown because she didn't really
have time to do that explorationwhen she was running the store.
I think that could be somethingthat we could take away from
that is that there may be timesin our life where we are focused
on other parts of life thatexploring our personal creative
(34:17):
identity may not be somethingthat we have time for, or that
we make a priority we can stillbe creative without fully
exploring all of that.
But there may be another pointin our life where we do have
time to do that.
And we can start to find our ownindividual style.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (34:32):
Right.
And she talked about, too,after, after the store closed,
how her body just shut down onher.
Catherine Dutton (34:38):
yes, like that.
She had to have almost a periodof recovery.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (34:43):
right.
And then that made a lot ofsense to me.
And then after that, she startedwith coffee dates and catching
up with old friends.
And then she's like, wait aminute.
I did this so I could create, Ineed to get my studio set up and
get to it.
so it was a process.
Catherine Dutton (34:59):
and going back to her store just really quickly
like one thing that I reallyappreciated when she talked
about her store was that Shetalked about making creativity
accessible to people and almostlike democratizing that.
When she, said this blew my mindwhen I found out there were
families that didn't just havescraps laying around that they
would play with.
One girl didn't even know howglue worked.
(35:19):
And I was like, okay, we'regoing to show you how glue
works.
And that idea of, we're justgoing to let people walk in here
and it doesn't matter what levelyou're at.
We'll show you how glue works.
But making it more accessible topeople and not expecting
everyone to come in at a highlevel of knowledge with
creativity.
I think it's really important tocultivating creativity and not
(35:42):
turning people off tocreativity.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (35:46):
I agree with you.
That was fascinating to me, too.
And I, part of me just wants togo visit the Dreaming Bear,
which hasn't existed for a longtime.
Catherine Dutton (35:55):
The other thing that she talked about was
self judgment.
Like on her pieces because shewas like, the pieces I don't
like as much always go first.
Who am I to judge?
I don't need to love everysingle thing that comes through
these hands.
If someone else gets joy fromit, who am I to judge?
And I thought that was just, Ilove that because I've been
looking at these cards that Imade last year going, Oh, I want
(36:17):
to sell them.
But another part of me is like,this isn't good enough., there's
no way that people are reallygoing to like these.
And That self judgment keepscoming in the way and I read her
interview last night and I waslike, yep Who am I to judge?
Maybe it'll bring someone elsejoy, too.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (36:30):
That's exactly right.
And then when she said that, Ilooked at the things I have of
her artwork in my studio going,Is that one she didn't, she
didn't care for?
Because boy, it sure makes, itbrings me joy every day.
Catherine Dutton (36:42):
Yeah, cuz it was funny cuz she was like some
of her favorite pieces are theones that never sell So it's
it's so interesting to me likehow our our art can just be very
We may not even love itourselves, but someone else will
fall in love with it.
But the thing that we love themost, it resonates with us for a
reason, but maybe other peopledon't necessarily understand
(37:03):
that full reason why it'sresonating with us.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:05):
Well, art is very personal.
Catherine Dutton (37:07):
it
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:07):
way I've experienced that is, is
QuiltCon, submitting quilts toQuiltCon.
year after year after year, andmany, many, many of them not
being accepted.
I'm like, but it's my favorite,but this is what, this is how it
speaks to me, you know, andthat's okay, you know,
Catherine Dutton (37:24):
Mm-hmm
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:26):
I think we need to accept that sometimes
our art is personal.
We do it for us.
Catherine Dutton (37:30):
We do.
Yeah.
Well, because part of creativityis personal expression and.
And that may not speak toeveryone, but it speaks to us.
And that's the purpose of, Ithink, of being creative in a
visual manner is allowing us tobe able to see that process for
(37:51):
ourselves.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:53):
So this brought a crazy thought to mind,
but like the classic artists,Monet, Rembrandt, you know, the
classics, are the pieces that weknow and the pieces that have
become so valuable and famous,are those the ones they really
loved?
Catherine Dutton (38:07):
Who knows?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (38:08):
to get into their brains and find out, Oh,
that old thing?
Really?
Catherine Dutton (38:12):
Yeah.
Wouldn't that be interesting?
You know, I was watching a clipfrom a Dr.
Who episode a few years ago.
it was the doctor with Van Goghbasically it allowed Van Gogh to
hear both how people really dotalk about him after his death,
but also like, how would hedescribe himself and he would
describe himself as these wereterrible strokes, look at these
(38:34):
birds, You'd think he'd nevereven seen a bird.
he was so self critical.
What do we know about Van Gogh?
his artwork is famous.
there's so much appreciation forwhat he's made.
and I think sometimes we don'tappreciate the beauty in what
we've made ourselves.
So, yeah, we need to be kind toourselves.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (38:55):
that.
Catherine Dutton (38:55):
hmm.
Ah, yes.
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (38:58):
Let's talk about Mel.
Mel Beach is another Person fromout of town who we've never met
in person, but have connectedwith online over time, and it
was so much fun to get herperspective.
The biggest thing from Mel thatstruck me is her focus on play.
(39:20):
It needs to be fun, we need toplay,
Catherine Dutton (39:22):
Yes.
Play is so important.
As children, we focus so much onchildren playing and we make
time for them to play.
we know that that's how childrenlearn.
And then the way that our schoolsystems are structured, we stop
play at first grade andsometimes kindergarten, which is
terrible, but like we stoppedplaying and we start focusing
on.
(39:43):
really workforce skills.
Like how do we sit still?
How do we sit in a chair?
How do we focus on one task?
Play is so important and we needto allow ourselves as adults
more opportunities to playbecause that is a crucial part
for how we still learn even asan adult.
(40:03):
Even though we're capable oflearning other ways, play is one
of the best ways that we canlearn.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (40:09):
And Mel's creative process incorporates
that play.
So with throwing the dice, with
Catherine Dutton (40:14):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (40:15):
some of the things that she does, and the
carving, the stamping blocks,and seeing how different ways
she can use them.
it's just wonderful, her, herspirit.
Catherine Dutton (40:27):
Yeah.
I really appreciated that.
And I liked how she also talkedabout, like, she is documenting
her processes and she uses thatto track her creative growth.
And I never thought about doingthis until she said that, like,
that she takes pictures of herprocess and the more pictures
she takes, it usually meansshe's struggling more on it.
But like, in doing that, she canstep back and get a new
(40:50):
perspective on it.
And so.
Yeah, I never really thoughtabout taking pictures as I go
through a process of something,especially, I take that back, I
do it with quilting.
I'll take pictures of thefabric, I'll take pictures of
like piecing, but with my artpieces I don't necessarily do
that with.
And I thought that was aninteresting idea.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (41:11):
It was interesting.
I also like how she uses foundobjects and reuses things.
Specifically, she talked about,finding some quilted pieces that
she turned into quilted heartsfor the I Found a Quilted Heart
project.
And I had never heard of thatbefore.
So I dug in and looked at thewebsite and stuff and I'm like,
(41:32):
that's fascinating.
And that may be something that Iwant to play with, because it's
a way of using what you have,Doing what you love and then
giving back to your communityand bringing joy into other
people's lives.
I thought that was reallyterrific.
Catherine Dutton (41:47):
Mm hmm.
It really was.
And I kind of appreciated, too,that she talked about how, she
chooses to not, do commissions,because for her, creativity is
personal, and she doesn't wantto have, to do work for hire,
but she'll teach people, and Ithink that allows her a way to
share her creativity in aprofessional manner without the
(42:10):
pressure of the commissions.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (42:12):
And she seems to balance the teaching and her
own creativity.
Catherine Dutton (42:18):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (42:18):
to override her time.
And she talked about how thepandemic kind of was a
correction point for her.
It allowed her, because she saidher goal for 2020 was to spend
more time in the studio.
And she says she caused thepandemic because it helped her
accomplish her goal.
But, you know, she had beenspending so much time on the
(42:39):
road and traveling and teaching,and this taught her new ways to
bring her own creativity in.
And she teaches a lot onlinenow.
I think she'll still travel toteach, But a lot of what she
does is online, which allows formore time in her personal
studio, which is great.
you know, that's a delicatebalance.
Catherine Dutton (42:58):
it really is.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
All right.
Well, do you want to talk aboutwho came after Mel?
Was it Charles?
Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (43:10):
Yeah,
Catherine Dutton (43:10):
you know Charles, and what a fun
conversation.
I enjoyed talking to him verymuch.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (43:17):
I always enjoy.
In fact, it was a conversationwith Charles that kind of set my
brain spinning on this exploringother people's processes and we
have
Catherine Dutton (43:27):
yeah, it was.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (43:28):
Yeah, we have the opportunity to chat at
QuiltCon every year and, acouple of years ago we were, we
were at dinner and he wastalking, began talking about his
process and I'm like, oh wait,oh wait, this is, I think
research Catherine kicked in andI was like, oh, I need to dive
into this, which is not a normalresponse in Ellen's world.
Catherine Dutton (43:49):
I remember you coming back from Quokkan and
talking with me about it and itwas like, yes, yes, that's what
we should explore.
And then as we started to talkabout podcast ideas, we were
like, yes, that's where we'regoing.
We're going to look atcreativity
Ellyn Zinsmeister (44:01):
So I'm glad he was able to make the time to
talk to us since he's the onethat gave me that jumping off
point.
and It was interesting to hearhim talk about the evolution of
his process from verystructured.
He talked about how the planningprocess was like 90 percent of
his work.
The actual putting together thequilt is afterthought, no
Catherine Dutton (44:21):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (44:22):
but it was all the planning and how,
Catherine Dutton (44:25):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (44:25):
adding a design wall in his studio.
Catherine Dutton (44:29):
Cause he talked about like how in the
beginning everything was verypre planned, but the design wall
gave him the opportunity to justkind of, Oh, he talked about
marinating.
I love that word.
That's such a great idea, butjust putting something on the
design wall and it giving youtime to observe it and consider
it and let it marinate becauseit gives.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (44:49):
things
Catherine Dutton (44:49):
Move things around.
Yeah, and you just walk in thereand you see it every time you
walk in there I thought that wassuch a great idea.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (44:59):
I think so too.
And he said that that shift camebecause of collaboration because
of his participation in the B.
He was dealing with blocks madeby 10 different people.
He gave parameters.
But the blocks were allexpressed different people's
creativity, so that marinationprocess was important.
It cracks me up that he doesmost of his designing in
(45:20):
PowerPoint, and again, it's usewhat you have, use what you
know,
Catherine Dutton (45:25):
I loved that because do you know how many
people that I've talked to youwho are like Oh, I designed an
illustrator and I have tried todo that and designing an
illustrator is not a fun task tome And it's just I find
Illustrator, it has itspurposes, but it takes a lot of
time to learn to use that tooland a lot of practice to use it
well.
And I know how to use PowerPointreally, really, oh, and it's a
(45:47):
monthly subscription.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (45:48):
I was just gonna say, a lot of money.
Catherine Dutton (45:50):
every month, right?
But like, I have PowerPoint, Butyeah, like, I just, I have
PowerPoint, and I was like, Ican use PowerPoint for things
like that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (45:58):
Graph, graph paper is even cheaper,
Catherine, just
Catherine Dutton (46:01):
This is true.
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (46:03):
I found that so interesting.
It's like, well, I use it atwork.
I know how it works.
I just, that's just what Inaturally did.
I'm like, that is, that is sogreat.
Catherine Dutton (46:13):
Yeah.
And I, I really appreciated thathis day job is being an
engineer, right?
And I think oftentimes we thinkabout an engineer type
personality or idea as somebodywho's not necessarily creative,
but my goodness, first of all,you actually want engineers to
be creative because they'resolving problems.
They're solving real worldproblems and they need to be
creative in doing that.
(46:33):
But his analytical thinkingenhances his creativity.
He doesn't see it as ahindrance.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (46:40):
And how important it is for him to use
the other side of his brain, andI can relate to that, too.
My background is in accounting,putting little numbers in little
boxes and making them all addup.
It's all very structured,
Catherine Dutton (46:54):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (46:54):
I love using the other side of my brain in my
art,
Catherine Dutton (46:58):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (47:00):
and he talked a lot about that was key for him
to find a way to use the otherside of his brain.
Catherine Dutton (47:05):
Yeah.
Do you want to jump in and talkabout Amelia's?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (47:10):
Let's do that!
Catherine Dutton (47:12):
Okay.
Now, Amelia was different fromour other interviewees.
She's an art therapist, she usesart in her work, but from a
different type of perspectivebecause she's using it as a
therapeutic value, rather thanjust as a personal expression,
which is how most of our otherinterviewees are using it.
(47:32):
Amelia and one of her friends,Mina, they ran what was called
an Oracle lab for a couple ofyears online.
And the idea being that everyweek we would gather on, Zoom
and they would provide a promptwe would write a little bit and
then when we would talk about itAnd then we would create art
based off of it And we becamethe idea was that we would
(47:54):
become our own oracles toourselves and it was Therapeutic
but not therapy.
It was an opportunity for me toreally think through some things
and, and then to make art aboutit, I'd never really connected
art to my emotions and that wasa really new thing for me.
And it was cool.
I liked it a lot.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (48:12):
And you've used that going forward, your
quilt that hung at QuiltCon lastyear.
Catherine Dutton (48:17):
Yes.
it was a therapeutic quilt.
Like it really was.
It was something that came outof therapy and continued to be
like all of the stitching that Idid on that was after I'd had a
concussion that changed my life.
but it was an opportunity for meto start to see like, okay,
there's other ways I can dothings.
I can't use a sewing machineanymore, but I can do things by
hand and I can.
(48:37):
I can be creative.
I can still be creative withoutbeing creative in the way I used
to be.
So,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (48:44):
I remember you sharing when you were part
of those Oracle labs and howimpactful that was for you.
Catherine Dutton (48:50):
yeah, it really, it was a neat
experience.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (48:53):
Was so interesting and talking about
her practice and how she impactsothers through art, but also
talking about her personal, wetouched on how she needs that
structure.
At this time, I'm going to meetwith these people and create
just my own work.
Catherine Dutton (49:09):
Mhm.
And I think one thing that shetalked about that was
interesting with that was likeshe had a digital space for
creating and an analog space for
Ellyn Zinsmeister (49:17):
Yes.
Catherine Dutton (49:18):
She was like, this is where the computer is
and where the desk is.
But then this desk over here islike analog.
There's no computer.
There's no technology here.
And it allowed her to exploreher creative process differently
between the two spaces.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (49:34):
Yeah.
Catherine Dutton (49:34):
Yeah.
That was really cool.
And she also talked a lot about,the intersection of creativity
and digital spaces, which iswhat her book's about.
So it makes a lot of sense.
One thing that she said was,here's her quote, the internet
really is the thing that made mywork and relationships possible.
And it's a place that isn'tdesigned with our psychological
(49:55):
wellbeing in mind, thatresonated so much with me.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (50:00):
Yeah.
I think about the frustration wecreatives have in dealing with
Instagram and some of the socialmedia platforms and the
limitations there and the waysthat It really isn't a positive
experience for artists.
And it's like, gosh, we, we needto create our own space somehow
because yeah, what's beingcreated for us by, businessmen
Catherine Dutton (50:25):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (50:26):
is not effective.
Catherine Dutton (50:28):
it's there to promote products and for them to
make money.
It's not really there for us toshare, in
Ellyn Zinsmeister (50:34):
we do our best, but it could be so much
better.
Catherine Dutton (50:37):
So anybody listening who has those mad
skills.
There's an opportunity for you.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (50:42):
Yeah, we're not gonna do that for you, but
we'll talk about it.
Catherine Dutton (50:45):
Yeah.
We'll give you the idea.
Put us in your credits.
Thanks.
Um, you know, and I thinkbecause she was a therapist, she
talked a lot about like thetherapeutic value of art it's
not just the art.
It's not just the client.
It's not just the therapist, butthere's a triangle of all three
together that.
(51:06):
are important in thatrelationship and in that, in the
conversation.
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (51:12):
Yeah, I think the one phrase she used was how
art and creativity gives us asafe passage through difficult
times,
Catherine Dutton (51:19):
Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (51:20):
I like that, and some of our other guests,
touched on how art brought themthrough difficult times, but
she's using that in her careerTo help bring other people
through difficult times, andthat's amazing to me.
The other thing she said acouple of times was how she
likes being in conversation withvisual art and how that's been
(51:41):
something she's done since avery early age.
Catherine Dutton (51:44):
Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (51:45):
And I love that.
Catherine Dutton (51:46):
And I think as part of that conversation, she
talks about how it's importantin meaning making for us, that
it's, What she said was it'simpossible to make something
that isn't already true withinus.
We can't bring something intothe world creatively if it
doesn't exist within us already.
We can't be the artist that wesee online that we admire.
(52:07):
We're not going to be thatperson because that's not within
us.
We have to be us.
And we may like that style.
So pay attention to that styleand go, okay, I like that style,
we're going to be creatingwhat's in, within us.
We don't have to replicatesomething exactly as somebody
else did it.
It's not going to be the same.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (52:31):
That's a great, a great place to land.
And so let's talk for a minuteabout how we are hoping to
inspire creativity in otherpeople and what we're planning.
Catherine Dutton (52:43):
Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (52:45):
What we're up to behind the scenes.
Catherine Dutton (52:48):
yeah.
So we've been talking because welove being creative together.
You and I do.
And we'd really like theopportunity to bring together
other creative people andinspire you to.
Like embrace all of yourcreative juices.
Ellen, do you want to tell themthe big announcement?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (53:07):
Yeah, we're planning and it's happening a
big retreat coming up inSeptember of this year,
September 3rd to the 7th inSunset, Texas.
There's a beautiful retreatcenter where we can gather and
be creative and encourage eachother to explore our own
creative path.
We plan to incorporate fiberarts and visual arts and
(53:33):
painting and maybe somejournaling and.
Maybe some comedy and just allkinds of fun ways to be
creative.
registration will open for ourretreat on February 1st, and
we're calling it Remix andStitch Lab.
So it's going to be a wholemixture of ideas and ways that
(53:55):
you can explore your creativityand what it means to be
creative.
So I hope maybe you'll put thaton your calendar and plan to
join us so we can get to knowyou better.
Catherine Dutton (54:06):
Yeah, we would really love to have you join us
and dori Patrick will be comingto Texas and she will be one of
the people teaching at thatretreat.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (54:17):
There'll be lots more details rolling out in
the coming very few weeks andopportunities for you to
investigate and think about howyou might be a part of it.
Catherine Dutton (54:28):
Yeah, we'd love for you to look at it.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday as we have recapped our
first season.
I have really loved theopportunity to talk to these six
people this season and to diveinto their ideas around
creativity.
Next season, as Ellen hasalluded to, we are going to be
talking to people who are beyondthe mixed media quilting world.
(54:50):
And we'll be talking to othertypes of creatives.
I hope you'll join us thenseason two will start sometime
later this spring.
Thank you for joining us againon Creative Crossroads, and we
will see you again soon.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (55:03):
have a great day.
Catherine Dutton (55:04):
Thanks!
Hello and welcome back to the final
episode of our first season ofthe Creative Crossroads podcast.
Today it's just Ellen and I andwe're going to talk about What
we've learned from this seasonof creative crossroads.
We started this podcast in anexploration to learn about how
other people express theircreativity.
And so we thought that today wewould go through what we saw as
(00:23):
overall themes across all of theepisodes, and then talk about
each episode individually andwhat stood out and what we
learned from each individualperson that we interviewed this
season.
Ellen, let's get started.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (00:38):
Let's do this.
Catherine Dutton (00:40):
All right.
So we both went through and welistened to all the episodes
again and we made notes.
And in my typical researcherfashion, I have made a list of
themes across all of
Ellyn Zinsmeister (00:52):
the episodes.
I appreciate ResearcherCatherine because in my mind, I
think haphazard, scatteredformat.
I just made notes and they'reall over the place.
And so I will make mine fit intothe themes and it will all be
very nice.
Catherine Dutton (01:08):
Oh, it will be perfect.
And if there's anything thatstands out that wasn't in those,
I want to hear that as well.
Yeah.
So if we, if we're looking atacross all of the interviews
that we did this season, I sawsix distinct themes stand out.
And so I thought we could kindof just go through and talk
through each of themindividually.
(01:28):
The first theme was thatcreativity is something
essential, innate, and it, forthe people that we interviewed,
they described it as somethingthat wasn't optional, but it was
fundamental to their humanexperience.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (01:43):
Right.
you hear
Catherine Dutton (01:44):
about that?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (01:45):
I think that's true.
And I mean, each situation wasdifferent.
Some of them work a day job andthen creativity is secondary.
but still very essential totheir life.
Some of them have transitionedfrom traditional jobs into
creative lifestyles and creativejobs.
Some of them have just alwayslived a creative lifestyle all
(02:07):
around.
And for all of them, they reallyemphasize that without
creativity.
Their life wasn't as meaningfulor, you know, as powerful.
So
Catherine Dutton (02:19):
yeah, and I really liked, like, Dori
emphasized that she thinkseverybody's creative, but
there's just really differentways of being creative.
And I think that stood out to mein thinking about, We all have
different ways that we'recreative and different ways that
we express our creativity.
And while we interviewed visualartists this season, next
(02:42):
season, we're hoping to expandthat beyond those, that type of
creativity.
Because we all are creative inhow we think about things.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (02:50):
I loved a lot of them talked about their
parents.
Were your parents creative?
Well, my mother was a dancer.
So not real.
I'm like, Oh my goodness, youknow, that's so creative.
And, you know, so they werecreative in different ways,
maybe not in the visual arts,but it certainly inspired each
one.
And I, I think that's so, sotrue.
I see it with my own children.
(03:12):
One of my three children is verycreative in the visual arts and
inspired that way, but theothers have, you know, gifts.
They're, they're dancers andwriters and broadcasters, and
they use their creative gifts indifferent ways, and they just
don't recognize it as such.
Catherine Dutton (03:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I see it all the time withstudents that I will tell them,
you know, like, be creative inthis assignment.
And my students will be like,I'm not a creative person.
And I'm like, Oh, I am sure thatyou are creative.
You're just thinking like, Idon't draw.
I think oftentimes people thinkcreativity equals I can draw or
I can paint or something likethat.
And that's creativity spans somuch more than that.
(03:49):
I think it's important toacknowledge that in ourselves.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (03:52):
I agree.
I agree.
That was a great common theme.
Another thing that they alltalked about was how they found
their process to be so much moreimportant than the final
product.
That was your second category.
Catherine Dutton (04:06):
So that was the second theme was the focus
on the journey rather than justthe result.
And I think you and I have hadthat conversation a lot because
I am definitely a journeyperson.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (04:18):
We a lot of stuff together that never makes
it to Instagram.
Catherine Dutton (04:23):
We do, we do, and I make a lot of stuff that
like never even turns up in afinished product either, either,
because for me that finalproduct is just not, I don't
care if there is one, it'sreally about just like sitting
there and making something, butI don't have to do anything with
it, but you are, you're afinisher, you finish things,
which is cool too.
Yeah,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (04:42):
but I'm starting to recognize how
important that process is.
And maybe doing more artjournaling where it's a gradual,
I may work on a A journal for acouple of years.
I may come back to it, add toit.
So I think that's something I'mlearning and that's becoming
more important to me.
Catherine Dutton (05:02):
One thing that stood out to me was Dusty talked
about how every project that shehas will inform the next one and
so that the process Develops ourskills over time and teaches and
like in Practicing like processis really practice, right?
And so the more that we practicethings the more the better we
(05:23):
get at it and the each of thosemoments of practice and it
inspires us to do somethingdifferent.
And we start to ask questionsand get curious and go, what if
I did this?
Or what if I tried this?
And like, I'm thinking about,you did some improv flowers
lately and you were like, Ooh,what if I did this?
And it was just like a littlefun one day project, but I think
(05:46):
it's evolving into somethingbigger for you.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (05:49):
I think it is.
Charles talked a lot about thattoo, about being part of the bee
and using bee prompts and blockprompts to grow into something
bigger that he might expand onlater on that he might turn into
a bigger piece of work or, youknow, a bigger quilt or another
piece.
Catherine Dutton (06:06):
Yeah.
And actually that, that's,that's transitions us into the
third theme really nicely, whichis the role of community.
And so I know Charles talkedabout like how participating in
the bee was just this hugecreative step for him.
And it allowed him theopportunity, like you said, to,
to experience quilting in adifferent sort of way.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (06:28):
Right.
And we mentioned the bee now andthen in the podcast, and I've
never really explained that,
Catherine Dutton (06:33):
Will you explain it?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (06:34):
sure, another friend, Sarah Gower from
California, and I formed theQuilts Unscripted Bee during the
pandemic.
There were quite a few of uswanting to work collaboratively,
and it was hard.
It was really hard to do duringthose times.
So we came up with a way to doit.
online where we found people allacross the country.
(06:56):
We invited people, people weknew really well that worked in
improv quilting, people wewanted to know better, people
whose work we admired and wegathered this group.
And so we're going into ourfifth year now, starting this
year, making improv quiltstogether, and it's just, I think
(07:16):
all of us have grown, um, andreally learned from each other.
Because you get a prompt, amonthly prompt from someone, and
like Charles talked about, itdoesn't start in your brain.
So you have to do something thatsomebody else came up with, and
find a way to make it your own,and to contribute to their
project.
(07:37):
So that, for me, that's been ahuge Online community, and I
typically see those people oncea year at QuiltCon, which is
coming up, and I really lookforward to that, because they've
not only become collaborators,but good friends.
And, I mean, certainly we haveour local quilter, quilting
buddies, and just you and Igetting together to, to junk
(08:00):
journal or whatever, I mean,community is, is key.
Another thing that stood out tome, Amanda talked about how Her
painting career, she's primarilyan oil painter, is so isolating
that there's no real community.
But once she started dabbling infiber arts and quilting, she
(08:22):
found that community
Catherine Dutton (08:24):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (08:25):
community.
Catherine Dutton (08:27):
Yeah.
And I, that stood out to me withhers, and I, the other one that
really stood out to me wasAmelia's talking about, um, And
she was like, I don't think it'scheating to need community to
create structure for ourselvesbecause her use of community
wasn't necessarily in likeinspiration for creating, but it
(08:49):
was creating structure so thatshe would create.
And I, and I, I think for me,that is a big part of community
for me, like I go to quiltretreat days or I go to sew
days.
And that for me is a reason tocreate because I can easily go
three to four weeks withoutdoing anything creative.
And I need it.
I want it.
I need it.
I want it.
But I don't, but I get busy withwork and I just don't make time
(09:13):
for it.
And that ensures that I createthat structure so that I do it.
And I like, and even thecommunity I have with you, like
doing art days with you meansthat at least once a week I am
doing something creative and
Ellyn Zinsmeister (09:24):
It's on the calendar.
Catherine Dutton (09:25):
on the calendar.
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (09:27):
The other thing was Dori talking about the
Dreaming Bear, the shop sheowned for, for kids.
10 or 12 years and how thatcreated community.
It did not, it did not force herto create personally.
It took away from her personalcreating time, but it created
community and brought peopletogether to make and what, what
(09:49):
joy that brought to people inher community.
Catherine Dutton (09:52):
And I want to talk more about that when we
talk about Dori's interviewspecifically, because she really
bought in some uniqueperspectives there as she talked
about the dreaming bear.
Yeah.
Um, Any other thoughts on therole of community?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (10:07):
No, I think that's good.
Catherine Dutton (10:09):
Okay, the fourth theme that I saw was
like, how people manage theircreative blocks.
And I just thought that this wasacross the board.
Like, there were so manydifferent ways that people
handled it.
And some people were like, oh,wait, who was it?
Mel was like, I don't ever havea problem with creative blocks.
I have so many things to do.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (10:28):
How great is that?
Catherine Dutton (10:29):
I know I was like, I'm kind of jealous.
And then Amanda was like,Sometimes she just takes a break
and goes and works in the yard,like completely different sort
of task.
And I think Dusty kind of echoedthat as well, because she was
like, I'll just step away and gowork on something else.
And I loved Dori's strategywhere she was like, I'll set a
timer and say, Dori, you can doanything for 20 minutes.
(10:52):
And I thought that was a greatidea of like, I'm just going to
set a time and just like, say, Iwill do this for 20 minutes.
And you just start.
She just would start makingmarks and then next thing she
knows, she's doing somethingfun.
And she was like, if I don'thave my mojo, at that point,
I've set the timer again foranother 20 minutes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (11:10):
I know.
I love that, and I may startusing that.
I think that's really great.
The other thing that I noticedacross the board, I think every
single one of them mentionedthat when they get really stuck,
They stop and clean theirstudio.
That often it's just the messhas gotten out of control.
Too many projects, too manysupplies, too many things.
Catherine Dutton (11:31):
I relate to that so well because I know for
me, like when my studio gets toa certain point, I have to be
like, okay, it's time for areset.
And I just, I can't focus.
If there's too much, I can takesome clutter in my studio, but
if there's too
Ellyn Zinsmeister (11:45):
Oh,
Catherine Dutton (11:46):
or if I'm.
If there's too much, I just, itbothers me and I can't focus on
what the creativity that I wantto do.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (11:54):
The other thing I've found, so I recently
did a major redo in my studio
Catherine Dutton (11:58):
You did.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (11:59):
out, I took everything out, touched
everything, sorted everything,and put it all back in in a
tidier, more organized way.
And just that action of touchingall the things, sometimes you
come across something that youset aside three years ago and
it's like, oh wait, this thing,you know, and then it spurs
(12:20):
something else and makes youthink, you know, creatively.
And either you take that thingand make it into something or
you jump off from there.
I found a lot of that in thatmajor tidy up of my studio
coming across things I hadforgotten.
Catherine Dutton (12:36):
I need to do that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (12:38):
Too bad you don't have any friends with
experience in that area, huh?
Catherine Dutton (12:43):
I
Ellyn Zinsmeister (12:43):
it on the calendar.
That's great.
Catherine Dutton (12:48):
So the next theme that we found was the
balance of structure andspontaneity.
And I think again, people reallydid this differently.
Some people saw that they reallydo both.
Charles was like, he almostvacillates between projects,
some projects are justinherently more structured and
some are more spontaneous forhim, whereas Amelia, she was
(13:10):
like, left to my own devices.
Structure is challenging.
I need other people.
And I, I related so closely tothat one.
Dori, similar to Charles, like,sometimes I know exactly what
I'm going to do.
And there's other days where Ishow up and I don't have the
foggiest.
I love that.
Like just the openness ofsometimes we just don't know
what we're going to do.
And then there was Mel who hadthe very, just that structured
(13:32):
approach of I roll dice, but itwas structure and spontaneity at
the same time.
I thought that was really cool.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (13:39):
Yeah.
I love how she blended themtogether.
So there's structure to herprocess, but then each
individual day's project is veryspontaneous.
Catherine Dutton (13:48):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (13:49):
It was
Catherine Dutton (13:50):
within the constraints that she's given
herself so that she can besuccessful in it too, which I
liked.
Mm
Ellyn Zinsmeister (13:56):
I like that a lot.
I think, yeah, I teach improvquilting.
Frequently and
Catherine Dutton (14:02):
hmm.
Mm
Ellyn Zinsmeister (14:04):
to a quilter, just sew the pieces together,
just pull two out of a bin.
And so, for me, that doesn'twork.
There needs to be somestructure.
Today, we're going to work withtriangles and you're going to
choose a color palette and we'regoing to work within that color
palette.
You know, make
Catherine Dutton (14:19):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsme (14:20):
improvisationally, then let the spontaneity go.
But,
Catherine Dutton (14:24):
Yeah.
And I think it's just, it's sointeresting looking at those
creative practices because forsome people working with a
limited color palette might feelreally challenging and
constraining.
Whereas other people need thatin order for it to feel like
they'll have a cohesive productat the end because they need
that color cohesion.
For, for them to feel like itlooks good.
(14:46):
Other people, I don't know howthey do it, but like, they
really can pull any strip out ofthe box and just go next.
And they end up with a beautifulproduct.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (14:53):
isn't that amazing?
Catherine Dutton (14:54):
I get really struck.
I struggle with that one.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (14:57):
I do too.
I do too, but I have lots offriends that, you know, scrappy
is totally their thing and itends up just incredibly
beautiful, so yeah,
Catherine Dutton (15:07):
it's incredible.
It's yeah, it's really neat tosee the different ways that
people approach that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (15:12):
I agree with you,
Catherine Dutton (15:14):
Well, then the final theme that I found across
all of them was, um, thatcreative practices evolve and
they're going to change overtime.
I felt like that reallyresonated with me and my own
experiences with creativity, andmy own creative practices.
Amelia talked about how she wentto art school and it was so
(15:35):
focused on critiques.
And she, she even said she hadto unlearn that practice as she
moved into.
doing therapy because youdefinitely can't walk into a
therapy room and critiquesomeone's art.
Like that's not the point of it
Ellyn Zinsmeister (15:50):
Right.
You wouldn't want to.
Catherine Dutton (15:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not, it's not even aboutthe product.
It's about the meaning of theproduct.
Um, and I felt, I thought thatwas so interesting.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (15:59):
I think they all, and none of our questions
specifically were geared towardevolution in your creative
practice, but every conversationkind of went that direction,
which was really cool.
Catherine Dutton (16:11):
It really did.
And like Charles talked abouthow he went from being like,
everything was pre planned Likethat he would create it in
PowerPoint and pre plan it outto now like he spends more time
on the design wall And he giveshimself time for things to
marinate and that's a big shiftfor him
Ellyn Zinsmeister (16:33):
I like when Dori talked about, early on she
was painting, making things thatdidn't really even resonate with
what she loved.
And then she talked about, shehad a teacher who said, pay
attention to what you payattention to.
And that was just like, whatmakes your heart sing?
What speaks to you?
That's the work you want to beaiming toward not, painting that
(16:55):
bowl of fruit on a table, which,we all went through in school
art classes.
Catherine Dutton (17:01):
I hated that assignment so much in seventh
grade.
I really did
Ellyn Zinsmeister (17:06):
my art teacher told me I didn't have a
creative bone in my body becausemy bowl of fruit didn't look
like the bowl of fruit on thetable.
I'm
Catherine Dutton (17:13):
it was my one point perspective drawing that
was like, yeah, no, you don'thave any creativity and I was
like
Ellyn Zinsmeister (17:19):
know?
Catherine Dutton (17:20):
there's a very big difference between
creativity and skill and I thinkthat sometimes we we confuse the
two that like to have drawingskills or painting skills equals
creativity and that's Those arenot the same thing.
Um, creativity is about thoughtprocess and how we're thinking
(17:42):
versus how the skill that wehave to enact that creativity.
Well,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (17:51):
that's a thing that evolves over time
that, you know, the payingattention, the, I mean, I did a
specific project where I pickeda color palette and for six
months, I'm going to work onlyin these colors and I'm going
to, you know, see where thistakes me and see what my voice
is, but you don't have to dothat.
You can just watch your practiceas it grows.
Catherine Dutton (18:12):
you created a beautiful structure for yourself
to allow yourself to explorethat.
and I think that was a reallycool way to explore your
creativity and kind of find yourvoice in that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (18:23):
It was fun.
It was, that was a fun project.
Yeah, I mean, and again, it wasa lot of what Dori talked about,
paying attention to what, what Ipay attention to.
Oh, that painting with the redchair really speaks to me.
I wonder if I could jump off ofthat and use that as inspiration
for an improv quilt.
And I did, and yeah,
Catherine Dutton (18:43):
And
Ellyn Zinsmeister (18:44):
I was, I was following her advice without
even knowing what it was.
Catherine Dutton (18:49):
and I think like that evolution of creative
practice.
Like our part of our creativityevolving over time does reflect
our skill shift as well Likebecause I was thinking about the
conversation I think it was withDusty where she was saying like
in the beginning she usedpatterns and now she now she
really doesn't use Patterns andher quilting and I think that's
(19:10):
part of that Creative evolutionof having confidence in your own
skills to, to be able to justsay, I don't need to follow
somebody else's directions.
I know this craft well enoughthat I can just jump in and make
my own thing.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (19:27):
And confidence is exactly the word
that was coming to my mind.
I think, you know, anytimeyou're new at something copying
what someone else does orfollowing their pattern is a
good way to learn and a good wayto develop your own skill, but
then at some point you jump offand have the confidence to be
yourself and use your own voice.
Catherine Dutton (19:47):
I think that is part of that creative process
evolution.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (19:52):
I'll be curious to see how that is
reflected with different kindsof creative people outside the
visual arts.
Catherine Dutton (19:59):
Yes, I just thinking the same thing, like,
are we going to see that as westart to talk to other creative
people?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (20:06):
I'll bet we will.
Catherine Dutton (20:07):
I bet it'll be interesting.
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (20:10):
It will.
Catherine Dutton (20:12):
All right.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (20:12):
those were great themes, Catherine.
Thank you and your researchermind for going there.
Catherine Dutton (20:18):
Did you have any other things that you saw
come across?
All of them?
Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (20:23):
of mine fit in to all of yours.
The only other thing Iconsistently heard all of our
artists say is that inspirationis everywhere.
And in one way or another, theyall said, well, I find
inspiration in my morning cup ofcoffee or in the buildings or in
the flowers.
You know, talked about seeinginspiration in their daily
(20:47):
lives, and, uh, I thought thatwas interesting, too.
No matter what their daily liveslook like, and they all look
different.
They were all in differentlocations, and
Catherine Dutton (20:59):
I think that really goes back to what Dori
said about paying attention towhat you pay attention to,
because I think the things thatwe pay attention to can be the
things that inspire us.
And I think it was you andAmelia talking about nature,
like that wasn't necessarilysomething that appealed to you.
that inspired either of you?
I hope I'm saying the rightperson, but I am inspired by
(21:21):
nature, but I'm inspired by,I've realized I pay attention to
other things other than that.
And so I've started to takepictures of the things I pay
attention to and go, okay, Howcan that inspire me?
I love clouds.
Like that is something I payattention to because I drive
across bridges every day.
And so I see like nothing butthe water and the clouds as I'm
doing that.
(21:42):
And I never thought about ituntil Dori's interview.
And I was like, I wonder what Icould do with that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (21:47):
There you go.
And for me, it's buildings.
Catherine Dutton (21:50):
It is for you.
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (21:52):
It's buildings and I've been known to
trip over cracks in the sidewalkin New York City because I'm so
busy looking up the buildings.
Catherine Dutton (22:00):
Oh, that could be dangerous.
Be careful.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (22:02):
yeah, I've had to learn to be more careful.
I think Mel and I had a goodconversation about this too.
Having just recently comethrough the pandemic where all
of us were experiencing someisolation and we had to find
inspiration.
We had to find ways to beinspired within our bubbles.
You know, I
Catherine Dutton (22:23):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (22:24):
Going to New York City and walking up and
down the streets was not anoption for me during the
pandemic, but, getting out of myhouse, finding inspiration where
I could.
And she talked about the samething.
Catherine Dutton (22:37):
So I'm going to use that as a jumping off
point to transition to talkingabout Dusty's interview because
one thing that was differentabout hers was like other people
use like buildings or nature,outdoor things as their
inspiration.
Dusty used words as inspiration.
And so she used that as hercatalyst for like her other
quilts.
(22:58):
and sometimes like the wordswould be directly on the quilt
and, sometimes it was the quotethat inspired the quilt for her,
which I thought was unique.
And it was different from whatwe heard from other people about
that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (23:09):
I think you're right.
I also love about Dusty, how sheincorporates, digital
Catherine Dutton (23:16):
Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (23:17):
I mean, I am, I'm a graph paper and pencil
girl, confess.
And part of that is becauseThere weren't even computers
until I was well into adulthood,so I'm, I'm revealing my age
here, but Dusty uses, usesdigital media in incredible ways
that I find really interesting,
Catherine Dutton (23:38):
And I think what makes hers unique is that
it's not just that she uses it,but she really integrates the
digital technology withtraditional quilting.
She's not just creating digitalproducts like she's integrating
it with that traditionalpractice, which is really cool
Ellyn Zinsmeister (23:54):
Using it to manipulate images and words more
as her planning process, whichCharles talked about too.
Catherine Dutton (24:01):
But and also about her execution, like using
the laser cutter to cut out herwords.
And she's really cool, I thinkone thing that I love about
Dusty's quilting is her dyingthat she does.
She embraces theunpredictability of it.
She talked about how, sometimesshe'll just let them pile up
(24:22):
until they inspire her to dosomething.
Which was kind of cool.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (24:25):
Yeah.
And how she does multiple at onetime.
Catherine Dutton (24:28):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (24:28):
do you have a quilt idea?
And then dye a piece for, andshe's like, no, that would never
work.
Catherine Dutton (24:33):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (24:34):
I thought that was fascinating.
Her ice dyed fabrics areincredibly beautiful.
Catherine Dutton (24:39):
Oh, they are so lovely.
Yeah.
And I think one of the otherparts that I really appreciated
about the conversation with herwas just the very personal
disclosure and conversation thatwe had about imposter syndrome
and how like that personalstruggle of like, will anybody
else appreciate this?
Is does my voice matter in allof this?
(25:01):
And I think that that is a veryreal thing that many of us
experience.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (25:06):
absolutely.
If not all of us,
Catherine Dutton (25:08):
Yeah.
Well, yeah, all of us experienceit and whether we're
experiencing it in the creativerealm or in the professional
realm, or even like in ourrelationships, we can experience
imposter syndrome in all ofthose areas.
And I think it's something that.
We're starting to talk aboutmore, but it's just something
that we often feel like.
I can't say that I feel like animposter, but I feel like I'm an
(25:29):
imposter, but if you said thatyou were, it felt like it,
everybody else would be like, Ohyeah, I feel like that too.
Me too.
I'm all there.
Everybody's there.
We're all there together.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (25:37):
right?
Catherine Dutton (25:38):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (25:39):
The other thing she talked about that
really struck me was howimportant it is to her to
encourage others, specificallyher niece as a nephew and, and
how she's so intentional aboutthat.
And even in the quotes she uses,how intentional she is about
inclusivity and about whatmessage she's sending out to
(26:01):
this younger generation.
And I just.
I've just loved that.
Catherine Dutton (26:05):
I did too.
okay, I want to say two thingsabout that.
the first one is that she talkedabout how creativity was really
important for her and gettingthrough rough times in life.
Creativity was almost a refugefor her at times.
I feel like that was soimportant and just a beautiful
way to look at how creativitycan impact our lives in such a
positive way.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (26:26):
I really enjoyed talking to Dusty, and
Dusty's someone who's been inour lives for ten years, the
whole time she's been quilting,but I learned so much that I
didn't already know, and it wasfun to explore those things with
her.
Catherine Dutton (26:40):
it really was.
I've always admired the workthat she does and I think one of
the reasons we picked her is wewere both like, I'd like to pick
her brain more and understandmore about how her brain works
with all of this.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (26:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And another person that we'veknown personally.
and finally got the opportunityto really dive into her mind was
Amanda Dunbar.
Amanda is, a local artist whowe've met through the Fiber Arts
World, which is not her primaryworld of creativity, but that's
(27:10):
where we met her.
And we were like, Oh, we wantit.
We want to know more aboutAmanda.
So
Catherine Dutton (27:16):
Well, and I, I have to be honest, I did not
realize that Amanda was a worldrenowned, incredibly famous oil
painter when we interviewed her.
Maybe I
Ellyn Zinsmeister (27:28):
on the Oprah show.
Catherine Dutton (27:29):
and maybe I should enter, maybe I should.
Maybe I should Google my friendsmore often.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (27:37):
Oh, don't Google me.
Please don't.
But it was neat because that wasa little different perspective,
you know, coming from thatangle.
Catherine Dutton (27:44):
It really was.
And I liked, like, when shetalked about, commissions I
really appreciated what she saidwhen a client shows her things
that she's created that theylike, and then said, here's the
space it's going to go in and gofor it.
So like, again, giving somestructure, but also allowing.
For freedom and something that'sgoing to fit that client versus
(28:05):
just replicating something thatalready exists.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (28:07):
The other thing that jumped out to me from
her interview, this washilarious, when she talked about
going through the butt phase ofany individual
Catherine Dutton (28:15):
my gosh, yes, that was great.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (28:17):
so great, how every piece of work, you start
and you get into it, and thenit, you look at it and go, what
am I doing?
Why am I doing this?
This is ugly, this is horrible,and she calls that the butt
phase.
And how you have to plow throughthat and get to the other side
of it to create your art.
Catherine Dutton (28:35):
Yes.
Like going along with that, shealso talked about knowing when
to stop something.
And I loved the metric that shegave us, which was like, when,
what I'm doing to it is nolonger adding to the project,
it's just starting to take awayfrom it.
I appreciated that becausesometimes it's hard to know,
like, when is something reallydone?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (28:57):
Yeah.
And that was a good, a goodmetric to follow.
Yeah.
I agree
Catherine Dutton (29:01):
really was.
Yeah.
And another thing that shetalked about was perfectionism
versus completing something.
Her quote was, what's that oldadage?
Perfection is the enemy ofcompletion.
A finished project is betterthan one you'll never finish
because you'll never achieveperfection.
And I think sometimes I need areminder of that, that it will
never be perfect.
(29:22):
because what is perfect anyways?
Like who defined what perfectlooks like?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (29:27):
Done is better than perfect.
And if it gave you more ideasand you want to keep going,
start another piece using thoseideas.
Use it as a jumping off point.
Catherine Dutton (29:37):
Well, and I
Ellyn Zinsmeister (29:38):
work in scenes,
Catherine Dutton (29:39):
well, and I think that goes back to what we
were talking about is that ourcreativity evolves.
And as our skills improve, as wemake things, our skills improve.
And so, yeah, something that Imade 20 years ago is not going
to look the same as somethingthat I make now because overall
my skills have changed.
how I see the world has changed.
(30:00):
Of course, it's going to lookdifferent.
Of course, it's going to bebetter.
Or better?
But is it better or is it just adifferently honed, a more honed
version of it?
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (30:11):
Now I agree with you.
I've got a couple decades on youand I can say that that has
continued in my life, you know,as things change.
Catherine Dutton (30:19):
Yeah.
And another thing that shetalked about was how she talked
about it like a feedback loop,that one idea leads into
another.
It leads into new ideas forpainting, which leads into new
ideas for her dissertation,which might lead into an idea
for quilting.
And it's just a big circle.
So I think connecting back toDori's pay attention to what you
(30:41):
pay attention to, pay attentionto it.
And then you can start thinkingabout how it's connecting to
other areas of other creativeparts of your life.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (30:49):
that's a really good point.
Catherine Dutton (30:51):
Thanks.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (30:52):
A really good point.
Who did we talk?
Oh, it was Dori we talked tonext and that was a really fun
conversation.
And we've never met Dori, to befair.
Catherine Dutton (31:05):
Yeah, we had both followed Dori on social
media, and we both enjoyed herartwork very much.
I loved getting to meet her andchat with her.
It was a very fun talk.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (31:15):
and I have to say, after we turned off the
recording that day, I think wecarried on for another 30 to 40
minutes, just chatting.
There may be some futureopportunities for us to work
together in collaboration, soI'm looking forward to seeing
where that goes.
She started right off sayingthat she feels better when she's
making
Catherine Dutton (31:34):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (31:34):
to our creativity is It's not optional.
It's essential.
Catherine Dutton (31:38):
Yes.
And she talked about it almostlike as a compulsion, right?
for some people it was a choiceor it's a practice that I do,
but Dori was like, it isingrained in me.
And she was like, I cannot notmake things.
Like, I don't understand peoplewho just sit and watch TV and
don't have something busy goingwith their hands.
And I relate so much to that.
I fall asleep when I watch TVwithout doing something, but as
(32:01):
soon as I've got a crochet hookin my hand or an embroidery
needle or a marker in my hand,like I'm good to go.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (32:08):
I mean, I have a whole room for my studio
for my creative things and asyou know, there's always like a
paint mat on my dining roomtable and An art journal or
something laying there that Ican just walk by and sit down
and add to at any point.
Sometimes that's a few minutesand sometimes I lose more time
than I'd like to.
Catherine Dutton (32:30):
But it's not really a lost time, is it?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (32:33):
No, not at
Catherine Dutton (32:33):
yeah,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (32:34):
I think when we were first married it really
bothered my husband that we hadto clear a space to sit down to
dinner every night.
Catherine Dutton (32:40):
uh,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (32:41):
almost 40 years I think, um, he's pretty
used to it at this point.
Laughter.
Catherine Dutton (32:46):
he's, he's accepted the Ellen that you are.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (32:50):
Well, and she talked a lot about that too,
about how supportive her husbandis in her creative, like he's
not necessarily a visual artist,a creative person himself, but
how he supports her endeavors,how he's her driver and her
snack getter and all of thosethings.
And I think for a lot of us,that's really important.
Catherine Dutton (33:11):
Yeah, that's interesting.
We didn't really touch on,family support with anybody
else, but Dori definitely didbring that into her
conversation.
Yeah,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (33:21):
You did.
I resonated with that because Ihave that in my life, you know,
Catherine Dutton (33:25):
I've always been single, so, like, for me
it's, yeah, it's just me.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (33:29):
you do what you do, but you're accountable
to me, buddy.
Catherine Dutton (33:31):
This is true.
This is, you definitely keep meon track, and I appreciate that.
Changing the topic completely.
I think one thing that wasinteresting was when she talked
about, owning the Dreaming Bearand how she transitioned after
she closed the store, like howshe had to transition from being
the facilitator of otherpeople's creativity to finding
(33:55):
her creative voice again.
She even said that she didn'treally start to figure out her
style until the store was closeddown because she didn't really
have time to do that explorationwhen she was running the store.
I think that could be somethingthat we could take away from
that is that there may be timesin our life where we are focused
on other parts of life thatexploring our personal creative
(34:17):
identity may not be somethingthat we have time for, or that
we make a priority we can stillbe creative without fully
exploring all of that.
But there may be another pointin our life where we do have
time to do that.
And we can start to find our ownindividual style.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (34:32):
Right.
And she talked about, too,after, after the store closed,
how her body just shut down onher.
Catherine Dutton (34:38):
yes, like that.
She had to have almost a periodof recovery.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (34:43):
right.
And then that made a lot ofsense to me.
And then after that, she startedwith coffee dates and catching
up with old friends.
And then she's like, wait aminute.
I did this so I could create, Ineed to get my studio set up and
get to it.
so it was a process.
Catherine Dutton (34:59):
and going back to her store just really quickly
like one thing that I reallyappreciated when she talked
about her store was that Shetalked about making creativity
accessible to people and almostlike democratizing that.
When she, said this blew my mindwhen I found out there were
families that didn't just havescraps laying around that they
would play with.
One girl didn't even know howglue worked.
(35:19):
And I was like, okay, we'regoing to show you how glue
works.
And that idea of, we're justgoing to let people walk in here
and it doesn't matter what levelyou're at.
We'll show you how glue works.
But making it more accessible topeople and not expecting
everyone to come in at a highlevel of knowledge with
creativity.
I think it's really important tocultivating creativity and not
(35:42):
turning people off tocreativity.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (35:46):
I agree with you.
That was fascinating to me, too.
And I, part of me just wants togo visit the Dreaming Bear,
which hasn't existed for a longtime.
Catherine Dutton (35:55):
The other thing that she talked about was
self judgment.
Like on her pieces because shewas like, the pieces I don't
like as much always go first.
Who am I to judge?
I don't need to love everysingle thing that comes through
these hands.
If someone else gets joy fromit, who am I to judge?
And I thought that was just, Ilove that because I've been
looking at these cards that Imade last year going, Oh, I want
(36:17):
to sell them.
But another part of me is like,this isn't good enough., there's
no way that people are reallygoing to like these.
And That self judgment keepscoming in the way and I read her
interview last night and I waslike, yep Who am I to judge?
Maybe it'll bring someone elsejoy, too.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (36:30):
That's exactly right.
And then when she said that, Ilooked at the things I have of
her artwork in my studio going,Is that one she didn't, she
didn't care for?
Because boy, it sure makes, itbrings me joy every day.
Catherine Dutton (36:42):
Yeah, cuz it was funny cuz she was like some
of her favorite pieces are theones that never sell So it's
it's so interesting to me likehow our our art can just be very
We may not even love itourselves, but someone else will
fall in love with it.
But the thing that we love themost, it resonates with us for a
reason, but maybe other peopledon't necessarily understand
(37:03):
that full reason why it'sresonating with us.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:05):
Well, art is very personal.
Catherine Dutton (37:07):
it
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:07):
way I've experienced that is, is
QuiltCon, submitting quilts toQuiltCon.
year after year after year, andmany, many, many of them not
being accepted.
I'm like, but it's my favorite,but this is what, this is how it
speaks to me, you know, andthat's okay, you know,
Catherine Dutton (37:24):
Mm-hmm
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:26):
I think we need to accept that sometimes
our art is personal.
We do it for us.
Catherine Dutton (37:30):
We do.
Yeah.
Well, because part of creativityis personal expression and.
And that may not speak toeveryone, but it speaks to us.
And that's the purpose of, Ithink, of being creative in a
visual manner is allowing us tobe able to see that process for
(37:51):
ourselves.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (37:53):
So this brought a crazy thought to mind,
but like the classic artists,Monet, Rembrandt, you know, the
classics, are the pieces that weknow and the pieces that have
become so valuable and famous,are those the ones they really
loved?
Catherine Dutton (38:07):
Who knows?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (38:08):
to get into their brains and find out, Oh,
that old thing?
Really?
Catherine Dutton (38:12):
Yeah.
Wouldn't that be interesting?
You know, I was watching a clipfrom a Dr.
Who episode a few years ago.
it was the doctor with Van Goghbasically it allowed Van Gogh to
hear both how people really dotalk about him after his death,
but also like, how would hedescribe himself and he would
describe himself as these wereterrible strokes, look at these
(38:34):
birds, You'd think he'd nevereven seen a bird.
he was so self critical.
What do we know about Van Gogh?
his artwork is famous.
there's so much appreciation forwhat he's made.
and I think sometimes we don'tappreciate the beauty in what
we've made ourselves.
So, yeah, we need to be kind toourselves.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (38:55):
that.
Catherine Dutton (38:55):
hmm.
Ah, yes.
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (38:58):
Let's talk about Mel.
Mel Beach is another Person fromout of town who we've never met
in person, but have connectedwith online over time, and it
was so much fun to get herperspective.
The biggest thing from Mel thatstruck me is her focus on play.
(39:20):
It needs to be fun, we need toplay,
Catherine Dutton (39:22):
Yes.
Play is so important.
As children, we focus so much onchildren playing and we make
time for them to play.
we know that that's how childrenlearn.
And then the way that our schoolsystems are structured, we stop
play at first grade andsometimes kindergarten, which is
terrible, but like we stoppedplaying and we start focusing
on.
(39:43):
really workforce skills.
Like how do we sit still?
How do we sit in a chair?
How do we focus on one task?
Play is so important and we needto allow ourselves as adults
more opportunities to playbecause that is a crucial part
for how we still learn even asan adult.
(40:03):
Even though we're capable oflearning other ways, play is one
of the best ways that we canlearn.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (40:09):
And Mel's creative process incorporates
that play.
So with throwing the dice, with
Catherine Dutton (40:14):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (40:15):
some of the things that she does, and the
carving, the stamping blocks,and seeing how different ways
she can use them.
it's just wonderful, her, herspirit.
Catherine Dutton (40:27):
Yeah.
I really appreciated that.
And I liked how she also talkedabout, like, she is documenting
her processes and she uses thatto track her creative growth.
And I never thought about doingthis until she said that, like,
that she takes pictures of herprocess and the more pictures
she takes, it usually meansshe's struggling more on it.
But like, in doing that, she canstep back and get a new
(40:50):
perspective on it.
And so.
Yeah, I never really thoughtabout taking pictures as I go
through a process of something,especially, I take that back, I
do it with quilting.
I'll take pictures of thefabric, I'll take pictures of
like piecing, but with my artpieces I don't necessarily do
that with.
And I thought that was aninteresting idea.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (41:11):
It was interesting.
I also like how she uses foundobjects and reuses things.
Specifically, she talked about,finding some quilted pieces that
she turned into quilted heartsfor the I Found a Quilted Heart
project.
And I had never heard of thatbefore.
So I dug in and looked at thewebsite and stuff and I'm like,
(41:32):
that's fascinating.
And that may be something that Iwant to play with, because it's
a way of using what you have,Doing what you love and then
giving back to your communityand bringing joy into other
people's lives.
I thought that was reallyterrific.
Catherine Dutton (41:47):
Mm hmm.
It really was.
And I kind of appreciated, too,that she talked about how, she
chooses to not, do commissions,because for her, creativity is
personal, and she doesn't wantto have, to do work for hire,
but she'll teach people, and Ithink that allows her a way to
share her creativity in aprofessional manner without the
(42:10):
pressure of the commissions.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (42:12):
And she seems to balance the teaching and her
own creativity.
Catherine Dutton (42:18):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (42:18):
to override her time.
And she talked about how thepandemic kind of was a
correction point for her.
It allowed her, because she saidher goal for 2020 was to spend
more time in the studio.
And she says she caused thepandemic because it helped her
accomplish her goal.
But, you know, she had beenspending so much time on the
(42:39):
road and traveling and teaching,and this taught her new ways to
bring her own creativity in.
And she teaches a lot onlinenow.
I think she'll still travel toteach, But a lot of what she
does is online, which allows formore time in her personal
studio, which is great.
you know, that's a delicatebalance.
Catherine Dutton (42:58):
it really is.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
All right.
Well, do you want to talk aboutwho came after Mel?
Was it Charles?
Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (43:10):
Yeah,
Catherine Dutton (43:10):
you know Charles, and what a fun
conversation.
I enjoyed talking to him verymuch.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (43:17):
I always enjoy.
In fact, it was a conversationwith Charles that kind of set my
brain spinning on this exploringother people's processes and we
have
Catherine Dutton (43:27):
yeah, it was.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (43:28):
Yeah, we have the opportunity to chat at
QuiltCon every year and, acouple of years ago we were, we
were at dinner and he wastalking, began talking about his
process and I'm like, oh wait,oh wait, this is, I think
research Catherine kicked in andI was like, oh, I need to dive
into this, which is not a normalresponse in Ellen's world.
Catherine Dutton (43:49):
I remember you coming back from Quokkan and
talking with me about it and itwas like, yes, yes, that's what
we should explore.
And then as we started to talkabout podcast ideas, we were
like, yes, that's where we'regoing.
We're going to look atcreativity
Ellyn Zinsmeister (44:01):
So I'm glad he was able to make the time to
talk to us since he's the onethat gave me that jumping off
point.
and It was interesting to hearhim talk about the evolution of
his process from verystructured.
He talked about how the planningprocess was like 90 percent of
his work.
The actual putting together thequilt is afterthought, no
Catherine Dutton (44:21):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (44:22):
but it was all the planning and how,
Catherine Dutton (44:25):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (44:25):
adding a design wall in his studio.
Catherine Dutton (44:29):
Cause he talked about like how in the
beginning everything was verypre planned, but the design wall
gave him the opportunity to justkind of, Oh, he talked about
marinating.
I love that word.
That's such a great idea, butjust putting something on the
design wall and it giving youtime to observe it and consider
it and let it marinate becauseit gives.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (44:49):
things
Catherine Dutton (44:49):
Move things around.
Yeah, and you just walk in thereand you see it every time you
walk in there I thought that wassuch a great idea.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (44:59):
I think so too.
And he said that that shift camebecause of collaboration because
of his participation in the B.
He was dealing with blocks madeby 10 different people.
He gave parameters.
But the blocks were allexpressed different people's
creativity, so that marinationprocess was important.
It cracks me up that he doesmost of his designing in
(45:20):
PowerPoint, and again, it's usewhat you have, use what you
know,
Catherine Dutton (45:25):
I loved that because do you know how many
people that I've talked to youwho are like Oh, I designed an
illustrator and I have tried todo that and designing an
illustrator is not a fun task tome And it's just I find
Illustrator, it has itspurposes, but it takes a lot of
time to learn to use that tooland a lot of practice to use it
well.
And I know how to use PowerPointreally, really, oh, and it's a
(45:47):
monthly subscription.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (45:48):
I was just gonna say, a lot of money.
Catherine Dutton (45:50):
every month, right?
But like, I have PowerPoint, Butyeah, like, I just, I have
PowerPoint, and I was like, Ican use PowerPoint for things
like that.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (45:58):
Graph, graph paper is even cheaper,
Catherine, just
Catherine Dutton (46:01):
This is true.
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (46:03):
I found that so interesting.
It's like, well, I use it atwork.
I know how it works.
I just, that's just what Inaturally did.
I'm like, that is, that is sogreat.
Catherine Dutton (46:13):
Yeah.
And I, I really appreciated thathis day job is being an
engineer, right?
And I think oftentimes we thinkabout an engineer type
personality or idea as somebodywho's not necessarily creative,
but my goodness, first of all,you actually want engineers to
be creative because they'resolving problems.
They're solving real worldproblems and they need to be
creative in doing that.
(46:33):
But his analytical thinkingenhances his creativity.
He doesn't see it as ahindrance.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (46:40):
And how important it is for him to use
the other side of his brain, andI can relate to that, too.
My background is in accounting,putting little numbers in little
boxes and making them all addup.
It's all very structured,
Catherine Dutton (46:54):
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (46:54):
I love using the other side of my brain in my
art,
Catherine Dutton (46:58):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (47:00):
and he talked a lot about that was key for him
to find a way to use the otherside of his brain.
Catherine Dutton (47:05):
Yeah.
Do you want to jump in and talkabout Amelia's?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (47:10):
Let's do that!
Catherine Dutton (47:12):
Okay.
Now, Amelia was different fromour other interviewees.
She's an art therapist, she usesart in her work, but from a
different type of perspectivebecause she's using it as a
therapeutic value, rather thanjust as a personal expression,
which is how most of our otherinterviewees are using it.
(47:32):
Amelia and one of her friends,Mina, they ran what was called
an Oracle lab for a couple ofyears online.
And the idea being that everyweek we would gather on, Zoom
and they would provide a promptwe would write a little bit and
then when we would talk about itAnd then we would create art
based off of it And we becamethe idea was that we would
(47:54):
become our own oracles toourselves and it was Therapeutic
but not therapy.
It was an opportunity for me toreally think through some things
and, and then to make art aboutit, I'd never really connected
art to my emotions and that wasa really new thing for me.
And it was cool.
I liked it a lot.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (48:12):
And you've used that going forward, your
quilt that hung at QuiltCon lastyear.
Catherine Dutton (48:17):
Yes.
it was a therapeutic quilt.
Like it really was.
It was something that came outof therapy and continued to be
like all of the stitching that Idid on that was after I'd had a
concussion that changed my life.
but it was an opportunity for meto start to see like, okay,
there's other ways I can dothings.
I can't use a sewing machineanymore, but I can do things by
hand and I can.
(48:37):
I can be creative.
I can still be creative withoutbeing creative in the way I used
to be.
So,
Ellyn Zinsmeister (48:44):
I remember you sharing when you were part
of those Oracle labs and howimpactful that was for you.
Catherine Dutton (48:50):
yeah, it really, it was a neat
experience.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (48:53):
Was so interesting and talking about
her practice and how she impactsothers through art, but also
talking about her personal, wetouched on how she needs that
structure.
At this time, I'm going to meetwith these people and create
just my own work.
Catherine Dutton (49:09):
Mhm.
And I think one thing that shetalked about that was
interesting with that was likeshe had a digital space for
creating and an analog space for
Ellyn Zinsmeister (49:17):
Yes.
Catherine Dutton (49:18):
She was like, this is where the computer is
and where the desk is.
But then this desk over here islike analog.
There's no computer.
There's no technology here.
And it allowed her to exploreher creative process differently
between the two spaces.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (49:34):
Yeah.
Catherine Dutton (49:34):
Yeah.
That was really cool.
And she also talked a lot about,the intersection of creativity
and digital spaces, which iswhat her book's about.
So it makes a lot of sense.
One thing that she said was,here's her quote, the internet
really is the thing that made mywork and relationships possible.
And it's a place that isn'tdesigned with our psychological
(49:55):
wellbeing in mind, thatresonated so much with me.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (50:00):
Yeah.
I think about the frustration wecreatives have in dealing with
Instagram and some of the socialmedia platforms and the
limitations there and the waysthat It really isn't a positive
experience for artists.
And it's like, gosh, we, we needto create our own space somehow
because yeah, what's beingcreated for us by, businessmen
Catherine Dutton (50:25):
Mm hmm.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (50:26):
is not effective.
Catherine Dutton (50:28):
it's there to promote products and for them to
make money.
It's not really there for us toshare, in
Ellyn Zinsmeister (50:34):
we do our best, but it could be so much
better.
Catherine Dutton (50:37):
So anybody listening who has those mad
skills.
There's an opportunity for you.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (50:42):
Yeah, we're not gonna do that for you, but
we'll talk about it.
Catherine Dutton (50:45):
Yeah.
We'll give you the idea.
Put us in your credits.
Thanks.
Um, you know, and I thinkbecause she was a therapist, she
talked a lot about like thetherapeutic value of art it's
not just the art.
It's not just the client.
It's not just the therapist, butthere's a triangle of all three
together that.
(51:06):
are important in thatrelationship and in that, in the
conversation.
Yeah.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (51:12):
Yeah, I think the one phrase she used was how
art and creativity gives us asafe passage through difficult
times,
Catherine Dutton (51:19):
Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (51:20):
I like that, and some of our other guests,
touched on how art brought themthrough difficult times, but
she's using that in her careerTo help bring other people
through difficult times, andthat's amazing to me.
The other thing she said acouple of times was how she
likes being in conversation withvisual art and how that's been
(51:41):
something she's done since avery early age.
Catherine Dutton (51:44):
Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (51:45):
And I love that.
Catherine Dutton (51:46):
And I think as part of that conversation, she
talks about how it's importantin meaning making for us, that
it's, What she said was it'simpossible to make something
that isn't already true withinus.
We can't bring something intothe world creatively if it
doesn't exist within us already.
We can't be the artist that wesee online that we admire.
(52:07):
We're not going to be thatperson because that's not within
us.
We have to be us.
And we may like that style.
So pay attention to that styleand go, okay, I like that style,
we're going to be creatingwhat's in, within us.
We don't have to replicatesomething exactly as somebody
else did it.
It's not going to be the same.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (52:31):
That's a great, a great place to land.
And so let's talk for a minuteabout how we are hoping to
inspire creativity in otherpeople and what we're planning.
Catherine Dutton (52:43):
Yes.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (52:45):
What we're up to behind the scenes.
Catherine Dutton (52:48):
yeah.
So we've been talking because welove being creative together.
You and I do.
And we'd really like theopportunity to bring together
other creative people andinspire you to.
Like embrace all of yourcreative juices.
Ellen, do you want to tell themthe big announcement?
Ellyn Zinsmeister (53:07):
Yeah, we're planning and it's happening a
big retreat coming up inSeptember of this year,
September 3rd to the 7th inSunset, Texas.
There's a beautiful retreatcenter where we can gather and
be creative and encourage eachother to explore our own
creative path.
We plan to incorporate fiberarts and visual arts and
(53:33):
painting and maybe somejournaling and.
Maybe some comedy and just allkinds of fun ways to be
creative.
registration will open for ourretreat on February 1st, and
we're calling it Remix andStitch Lab.
So it's going to be a wholemixture of ideas and ways that
(53:55):
you can explore your creativityand what it means to be
creative.
So I hope maybe you'll put thaton your calendar and plan to
join us so we can get to knowyou better.
Catherine Dutton (54:06):
Yeah, we would really love to have you join us
and dori Patrick will be comingto Texas and she will be one of
the people teaching at thatretreat.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (54:17):
There'll be lots more details rolling out in
the coming very few weeks andopportunities for you to
investigate and think about howyou might be a part of it.
Catherine Dutton (54:28):
Yeah, we'd love for you to look at it.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday as we have recapped our
first season.
I have really loved theopportunity to talk to these six
people this season and to diveinto their ideas around
creativity.
Next season, as Ellen hasalluded to, we are going to be
talking to people who are beyondthe mixed media quilting world.
(54:50):
And we'll be talking to othertypes of creatives.
I hope you'll join us thenseason two will start sometime
later this spring.
Thank you for joining us againon Creative Crossroads, and we
will see you again soon.
Ellyn Zinsmeister (55:03):
have a great day.
Catherine Dutton (55:04):
Thanks!
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